This is the same thing as saying that because Mark and Paul both used
the word "gospel" they must be related.  Similarity of vocabulary
dependence does not make.

Jim


Richard Richmond wrote:

>And now what I conceive to be the most striking
>attestation of the Pauline influence in the Gospel of
>Mark:
>
>The Jesus of Mark in the garden of Gethsemane used the
>term Abba (14:36) with reference to God which is only
>found in Mark and in the letters of Paul (Romans 8:15
>and Galatians 4:6).
>
--
D. Jim West

Biblical Studies Resources -  http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
Biblical Theology Weblog -  http://biblical-studies.blogspot.com

And now what I conceive to be the most striking
attestation of the Pauline influence in the Gospel of
Mark:

The Jesus of Mark in the garden of Gethsemane used the
term Abba (14:36) with reference to God which is only
found in Mark and in the letters of Paul (Romans 8:15
and Galatians 4:6). This FACT alone is a remarkable
connection which was not repeated in the either of the
other two Synoptics. I am confident that the reason it
is not repeated is because among traditionalists
whether Greek Jewish believers or Palestinian Jewish
believers this term is much too intimate and familiar
to be used in reference to God). I believe Paul’s use
of the term originates from Homer and was not Jewish
at all. The fact that Mark puts this expression into
the mouth of Jesus is unquestionably due to his
connection to Paul.

I did not mean to say that Abba was a Greek word but
that the concept of God as intimate friend had is
basis in the writing of Homer and not in Hebrew
tradition. It is a Greek thought not Jewish.

Rick



Rick Richmond rickr2889@...



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How much influence did Paul have on the Gospel of
Mark?

I am postponing my posts on the word counting in Mark
to address this issue because it is very close to my
heart.

Before I say anything to show that Paul is behind this
Gospel of Mark, I think it important for us to
consider how a person comes to know a thing to be
true. One of the points made in the Gospel of Mark and
elsewhere was that Jesus spoke with “authority” and
not as the scribes and Pharisees. I would like to
translate that phrase into modern English according to
what I understand it to mean. I do not regard it as a
reference to supernatural powers or omniscience. As I
read the text it appears to say that Jesus did not
teach by referring his audience to Rabbinical
authorities or those who had addressed the subject in
the past. He spoke from what he perceived in his own
study of the Old Testament and Greek Literature and
any other source that life had brought into his world.


In the tradition in which I was ordained after
seminary, the book of discipline says (paraphrasing
here) that truth comes to those who seek it from four
basic avenues. Scripture, Tradition, Experience
(understood as spiritual experience) and Reason. This
doctrinal confession of sorts is what drew me to this
denomination. It resonated with what I already knew to
be true. Having said that, I wamt to present to the
group my own understanding of the Mark/Paul connection
which is not at all based on the work of others though
at times the Rabbis have been correct. Before I do I
will digress a moment and present you with a poem that
addresses this all important issue of how we come to
know a things is true, just to stimulate your thinking
about what you know and how you know it to be true.

the significance of knowing

how can we know a thing to be true
what are the factors convincing you
something was written to make knowing last
people told stories remembered the past
some things just are, yet i we cannot say how
others i tried back when and then now
to know is a gift to all who have eyes;
help to discard all falsehood and lies
what do i know - a thought quite profound
i venture not much when truth comes round
but the things that you know many or few
affect how you think and what you will do
ask you this question and tell you the truth
what do i know, what learned since my youth
all that we are  and ever will be
comes from that knowing - for you and for me



The similarities between Paul (as I experience him
from his letters), and the Gospel according to Mark.

(We must remember to hold in our mind the realization
that the letters of Paul preceded the text of Mark as
did Paul's life and death).

Style: The Gospel of Mark has clearly and without
question been created in conformity to the following
formula in style.

1Co 2:1 When I came to you, brethren, I did not come
proclaiming to you the testimony of God in lofty words
or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you
except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 And I was
with you in weakness and in much fear and trembling; 4
and my speech and my message were not in plausible
words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit
and of power. -- If one were writing a commentary on
the Gospel of Mark he could not describe the literary
style of Mark more accurately than Paul has described
his own method of presenting his Gospel.

Mark has no birth myth stories and no genealogies
(forbidden by Paul)

In Mark, Peter is presented as a hypocrite his actions
did not agree with what he professed and went counter
to the spirit of Jesus (Paul and Mark share this
view).

There is no reward and no resurrection for people who
are unwilling to identify with the suffering of Jesus
epitomized in his rejection by Jews and finalized in
the cross. Paul intentionally went up to Jerusalem in
the face of warnings that he would be facing great
danger and proceeded identifying with the cross.

The reputed pillars of the church  (Peter-James and
John) are persented in Mark in a negative light as
self-seeking and far too concerned about heavenly
rewards.

Key parable of the sower drawn from Paul  1Cor 2:8-10
As it is written, "He scatters abroad, he gives to the
poor; his righteousness endures for ever." 10 He who
supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will
supply and multiply your resources and increase the
harvest of your righteousness. And 1Cor 3:6.


No commendation to preserve the Law of Moses and no
references to the Law of Moses except one response to
the rich young man which is followed up by a request
for total commitment reflecting Paul's values.

No commendation to seek righteousness, conversely
there are several commendations to exercise faith.

Jewish elements and Jewish thought were primarily
responsible for rejecting the teaching of Jesus and
ultimately his death, the same was the case with the
life of the Apostle Paul.

Gentiles were more receptive and humble in there
response to Jesus in Mark and to Paul in life.

The correct attitude for a disciple of Jesus was the
attitude of a servant. (1Cor 3:5)

The loss of every earthly treasure was a small price
to pay for knowing Jesus (Phil 3:8)

Reference and equal response to paying taxes and Mark
12:14-17 (Romans 13:6-7)

Reference and equal response to the question of the
great commandment of love of neighbor (Mark 12:28-31)
(Rom 13:8-10) Notice that these last two items in Mark
follow the same order of presentation as the same two
items in Romans.

The Jesus of Mark is presented with foreknowledge of a
tragic fate as he proceeds on a journey to Jerusalem,
Paul also had this knowledge and took this journey
intentionally, to fulfill the will of God.

The use of parables and codified expressions to avoid
interference by outsiders (primarily Jewish
opposition). (see 1Cor 2:7-9)

A dramatic split with Jews (Pharisees and scribes0
from Jerusalem that dined with Jesus in a setting
involving ritual before eating loaves(Gal 2:12-15)

The mark of a real apostle is his ability to break and
distribute the spiritual bread ( preaching that
demonstrates spirit and power) not to execute the
rituals of tradition.

To the Jew first and to the "Greek" and in the same
fashion not to a lesser degree with respect to
gentiles.

The presence of spies among his associates
(2Cor.11:26) Jewish spies (Gal:4)

I have not even begun to illustrate how many of the
stories within Mark's text are actually based on
events in the life of Paul but I would be remiss if I
did not include at least one.

I presnt the rough translation of Mark 9:33-37
attempting to keep natural word oder which I believe
emphsizes the expression in the Way, symbolic of the
movement of which Paul was part.

and they came to Capernaum and being in the house he
questioned them "what in the way were you debating?"
and they were silent toward one another for they
debated in the Way who was greater. And sitting he
called the twelve and says to them, If anyone wished
first to be he shall be of all last and of all
servant. And taking a child he set him in the midst of
them an folding in his arms him he said to them
"whoever receives one of the children like this one in
my name receives me and whoever receives me not me
receives but the one who sent me.

This passage describes an event in the life of Paul as
recorded in 1 Corinthians. It is the very subject of
the letter. Paul like Jesus had herd that there was an
argument developing in Corinth over which of the big
name preachers in "the Way" was the greatest. Mind you
he himself had begun the work in Corinth but Apollos
had been there and evidently so had Cephas and the
circumcision party. So now the factions were forming
around the leaders and Paul himself had gotten word of
it second hand. In his address on "who was the
greatest" Paul rejected the basis for the argument as
completely inappropriate and explained that He and
Apollos and Cephas and whoever was the head of the
Christ party (James is suspect) were each one, only
servants of God. As a remedy to the situation Paul in
4:17 said he was sending his beloved child Timothy  to
remind them of his teaching and he asked them to
receive this youngster with graciousness indicating
that if they were to do so they would be receiving him
and in actuality receiving God. Now for all who have
eyes to see and for all who have ears to hear
themselves read this text. I cannot imagine anyone not
recognizing the relationship between these events as
recorded in both texts and in the same order. Yet I
know there will be a host of people advancing the
position that his is not the case at all. For those
who respect such evidence there are no less than
twelve vocabulary words in the short text of Mark that
appear in 1Corinthians, not counting articles and
prepositions and the like.

And now what I conceive to be the most striking
attestation of the Pauline influence in the Gospel of
Mark:

The Jesus of Mark in the garden of Gethsemane used the
term Abba (14:36) with reference to God which is only
found in Mark and in the letters of Paul (Romans 8:15
and Galatians 4:6). This FACT alone is a remarkable
connection which was not repeated in the either of the
other two Synoptics. I am confident that the reason it
is not repeated is because among traditionalists
whether Greek Jewish believers or Palestinian Jewish
believers this term is much too intimate and familiar
to be used in reference to God). I believe Paul’s use
of the term originates from Homer and was not Jewish
at all. The fact that Mark puts this expression into
the mouth of Jesus is unquestionably due to his
connection to Paul.

There are good reasons as to why Mark has conformed
his Gospel to the style of Paul's preaching and they
stem from what Paul did for a living which was not
making tents as is commonly thought. The word that
describes the trade of Paul, Aquila and Priscilla is
skene. In Paul’s own lifetime that word was used to
describe the stage set of a Greek Theater. Paul was
actually a carpenter of sorts. These stages began as
tents to house the chorus and actors, but in Paul’s
lifetime these tents had long been replaced by
elaborate stages also called skene. The tent had been
gone for hundreds of years by the time Paul was born.
Someone who was described as a skene would quite
naturally be a person who put up and took down the
elaborate stage sets of Greek Theater in the first
Christian century. Every city that had a Theater,
Corinth, Thessalonica, Athens, Antioch, Ephesus, they
all celebrated at least to yearly festivals in January
and March. The festivals would last four days and
there would be competitions where compositions like
the Gospel of Mark could be enacted on stage and
judged for the chief prize after the manner of of th
trilogies of Aeschylus and Sophocles.  The eloquent
Apollos was almost certainly an Actor that Aquila and
Pricilla met at Synagogue during one of these
festivals in Corinth.

All of the missionary journeys of Paul were based
around cities that had large Greek theaters and that
would include Antioch which had a theater that could
seat 14000 people. Greek theater was a demonstration
of whatever the playwright had to say. It was a place
where the epic poems where performed and the works of
Socrates and Plato and Aristotle were recited. The
presentation was for the eyes and ears of the audience
to be seen and perceived, heard and understood. I have
gone through the text of Mark and noted all of the
elements of Greek tragedy, the prologue, the Parados,
the episodes and stasimons,  and the parts of the
chorus and actors as well as the setting descriptions
spoken by the chorus. Mark is a trilogy of Greek
tragedies. And was probably presented in competition
on stage.

So there you have my reasons for connecting Mark with
Paul with the exception of one which anyone can read
for themselves in II Timothy 4:6-18. I regard this
letter as the beginning of the enterprise we call the
Gospel of Mark. The reference to Rome in II Timothy is
an addition to make it agree with the account of Paul
sailing to Rome that we have in Acts. Paul was in
Caesarea when he wrote this letter to Timothy. (Paul
would never have been able to count on the presence of
Mark had Timothy had to travel to Jerusalem first and
then to Rome. Timothy was going from Ephesus (not far
from Troas) to Caesarea and would pick up Mark in
Jerusalem first. The blank parchment that Paul so
desperately needed was for the committing the Gospel
to writing. How much of the actual text came from the
mind of Paul is difficult to determin as it was not
finished until after the fall of Jerusalem and
probably not until 74 after the soldires left the
desert.

Some of these things I know others i am waiting for
life to confirm. But there is nothing that I know for
certain that conficts with what I have just written.

Rick Richmond








Rick Richmond rickr2889@...



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At 03:07 PM 7/8/2005 -0500, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
>Chuck Jones wrote:
>>  Rick, If you think you'd be interested in exposing yourself to
>> another view, again, I'd recommend Mack's _Who Wrote the New
>> Testament?_.
>
>A bit too edgy for my taste and tainted by some question begging
>assumptions about Paul and his theology.  Better I think is the
>consideration of the question that can now be found in the Introduction
>of Joel Marcus' Anchor Commentary on Mark.

See also Joel Marcus, "Mark--Interpreter of Paul," NTS 46 (2000): 473-487.
Here's the abstract:

|Claiming that Mark is a Paulinist does not require that he agree with
|Paul about everything, and plausible reasons can be advanced for a later
|Paulinist wanting to write the story of the earthly Jesus. Martin Werner's
|assertion that the agreements between Mark and Paul reflect general early
|Christian viewpoints is not valid with regard to the theology of the cross,
|which was a controversial Pauline emphasis and a stress that the later
|Gospels attenuated in editing Mark. Contrary to Werner, Mark and Paul
|agree in ascribing Jesus' death to a combination of human and demonic
|opponents.

See also M. D. Goulder, "A Pauline in a Jacobite Church" in THE FOUR GOSPELS:
1992 (Van Segbroeck et al., eds.; BETL 100; Leuven: University Press, 1992):
2:859-75.

Stephen Carlson
--
Stephen C. Carlson                        mailto:scarlson@...
Weblog:                              http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/
"Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words."  Shujing 2.35

 Jeffery-

Could you be a little more explicit about your opinion of Mack:

"A bit too edgy for my taste...."
 

Jeffrey

--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
Chicago, Illinois
e-mail jgibson000@...
 

Jeffery-

Could you be a little more explicit about your opinion of Mack:

"A bit too edgy for my taste...."

Thanks,

Rick Hubbard
Humble Maine Woodsman


-----Original Message-----
From: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Synoptic@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Jeffrey B. Gibson
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 4:07 PM
To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Mark and Pauline Teaching


Chuck Jones wrote:

>  Rick, If you think you'd be interested in exposing yourself to
> another view, again, I'd recommend Mack's _Who Wrote the New
> Testament?_.

and tainted by some question begging
assumptions about Paul and his theology.  Better I think is the
consideration of the question that can now be found in the Introduction
of Joel Marcus' Anchor Commentary on Mark.

Yours,

Jeffrey

--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
Chicago, Illinois
e-mail jgibson000@...




Synoptic-L homepage: http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-l
Yahoo! Groups Links

Chuck Jones wrote:

>  Rick, If you think you'd be interested in exposing yourself to
> another view, again, I'd recommend Mack's _Who Wrote the New
> Testament?_.

A bit too edgy for my taste and tainted by some question begging
assumptions about Paul and his theology.  Better I think is the
consideration of the question that can now be found in the Introduction
of Joel Marcus' Anchor Commentary on Mark.

Yours,

Jeffrey

--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
Chicago, Illinois
e-mail jgibson000@...

Chuck below are your comments:

I will make my one brief response. First off I would
suggest that you might want to read the "community
rule" or "the manual of discipline" as it is called in
some editions from the Qumran community of the Dead
Sea. There you will see a meal that is all but
identical to the Eucharist. It was instituted by the
community of Qumran long before Jesus or John came on
the scene. The meal was intended to re-enact portions
of temple worship including the daily sacrifice. You
can see a modern enactment of the Essene ritual at any
Roman Catholic mass complete with the ceremonial
washing of the hands by the priest,  consecration of
the bread and wine and the two part division of the
sacrifice. The first is called the mass of the
Catechumens and the second is called the mass of the
Faithful. In the Essene movement one was not allowed
to partake of the sacred meal until he had proved
himself for at least a year as one who upheld the
community rule and the law of Moses. In addition to
these facts you can observe the Priests of the RCC
taking communion (bread) in a little pouch to shutins
just as missionaries carried the Eucharist with them
in the first century. The Agape feast is another name
for this meal as it was practiced daily by the people
of the Way an offshoot of the Essenes movement that
differed mostly in their attitude toward enemies.

I am surprised that you think the Eucharist was such a
late development when it was being practiced ritually
during the ministry of Paul and documented long before
out four Gospels came into existence.

As always, Thank you for your comments.

Rick



Richard:
3.) On the trip to the other side the disciples become
aware that they have forgotten to take loaves. Note
that it is in the plural form of noun ARTOUS. The
point is not that they forgot to bring food; they
forgot to bring the loaves necessary to celebrate the
Eucharist.

Chuck:

This is an excellent example of an anachronistic
reading.  The Eucharist evolved over multiple decades
after Jesus died, and there is no evidence in Mark of
an awareness of a tradition of re-enacting the Last
Supper.  Are you suggesting Mark would have his
readers believe the disciples celebrated the Lord's
Supper before there was a Last Supper?

Richard:


4.) In Mark’s narrative the fact that the disciples
would even discuss not having loaves is an indication
to Jesus that they do not understand the point of the
feeding parables.

Chuck:

The feedings were not parables.  They were miracle
stories and were not recorded in the synoptics to
teach symbollic or allegorical lessons (Jn interprets
the feeding of the 5,000 allegorically in his gospel,
making it even more striking that the synoptics do NOT
do this).

Richard:

8.) There are two points that Mark wants his readers
to get from this symbolic equation. First, among the
twelve disciples only five were called by Jesus.
Secondly the way to recognize the leaven of the
Pharisees and of Herod is by doing the Math i.e. by
counting as in comparing the ratio of loaves to the
number of baskets of leftovers.

Chuck:

If this was what Mark wanted his readers to
understand, he failed miserably, didn't he?

Chuck Jones



Rick Richmond rickr2889@...

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To: Synoptic [sic]
In Response To: Rick and Chuck
On: Loaves in Boat
From: Bruce

I thought there might have been a methodological issue in here:

RICK: On the trip to the other side the disciples become aware that they
have forgotten to take loaves. Note that it is in the plural form of noun
ARTOUS. The point is not that they forgot to bring food; they forgot to
bring the loaves necessary to celebrate the Eucharist.

CHUCK: This is an excellent example of an anachronistic reading.  The
Eucharist evolved over multiple decades after Jesus died, and there is no
evidence in Mark of an awareness of a tradition of re-enacting the Last
Supper.  Are you suggesting Mark would have his readers believe the
disciples celebrated the Lord's Supper before there was a Last Supper?

BRUCE: Anachronistic indeed, but an anachronistic reading is ruled out only
if we assume the Gospels are transcripts from life, and can be tested
against what could have happened in real time before 33 AD. If the text in
question (here, GMk) is instead late, retrospective, and reinterpretive, it
is quite thinkable that it might have worked in such late symbolism or
references.

Or that such might have been later added to it, by hands unknown. It is
typical of all evolving traditions (including the one the US Supreme Court
presides over) that they are inclined to refer all clarifications and
developments back to the founder, the first stage, the original charter,
whatever. If someone about, oh, say 70 BC, more than a generation after the
facts, was feeling uncomfortable about the lack of a scriptural warrant for
a given observance (here, the Eucharist), then one solution is to provide a
scriptural warrant, and the best possible scriptural warrant is a text
already accepted as authoritative. Hence the popularity of interpolation in
texts perceived as early in the tradition. This is a statement in general.
Whether it applies to GMk requires to be established, but it would be no
surprise to general theory if it did.

We can turn that around. If there are three or thirty texts recognized in a
young tradition, and one of those texts is notably more interpolated than
the others, then the reason might be that the early tradition regarded that
one text as earliest, and thus more authoritative. Early tradition might be
wrong, but its opinion would still be useful to know. On that test, if we
may call it such, which of the Synoptics is the most interpolated, and this
perhaps the one regarded as earliest, in early times?

I haven't got an official list of passages in the Gospels which one or
another commentator has suggested may be interpolated. Has anyone? If so, I
will appreciate a reference. But my personal list of possibles would give
the prize here to GMk, several times over.

Bruce

E Bruce Brooks
Warring States Project
University of Massachusetts at Amherst

To: Synoptic
In Response To: Rick Richmond
On: Twelves in Mark
From: Bruce

RICK: Thank you for your contribution Bruce. I realize that you are not
agreeing with me and I am only expressing my appreciation for the work you
did to make your post on the issue.

BRUCE: Neither agreeing nor disagreeing. I am disinclined toward theories of
this type, as I said at the outset, but I think the theory (or any theory)
needs to be looked at afresh, without prejudice. Those are my results so
far. More is needed, but as far as I can see, they leave the theory, at
least in its DODEKA aspect, still open, though perhaps somewhat refined as
to the stage of evolution of GMk at which it might be expected to hold.

Now I have to go spend time on Wieland's theory. Serves me right.

E Bruce Brooks
Warring States Project
University of Massachusetts at Amherst

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Chuck wrot:


Rick,

This is a long, detailed topic, but Mark is not
especially Pauline in its content or theological
emphasis.  I recommend the relevant sections of Burton
Mack's _Who Wrote the New Testament?_ for a
comprehensive examination of this.

I beg do differ with you on this point. The influence
of Pauline teaching on the Gospel of Mark is evident
on every page of the text and there have been those
throught the history of New Testament studies that
have made this claim. G Volkmar, B.W. Bacon and Alfred
Loisy to name a few. These men were correct in
associating Mark with the Apostle Paul. Just the
Markan presentation of Peter alone is a reflection of
the Galatians epistle and Paul's attitude toward Peter
which is that he was a hypocrite. I would contend that
Mark is the Only one of the four Gopsels that has any
real connection to Paul. Paul would never have
condoned the birth stories and genealogies that appear
in Matthew and Luke, and only Paul has the theology of
suffering to the point of death for the sake of the
Gospel in writing prior to the four Gospels we have
today. I am sorry but there is no way one can
logically avoid the relationship between the Gospel of
Mark and the apostle Paul as I see it.

thank you for your comments

Rick


Chuck

rickr wrote:
Unlike the text of Mark which is Pauline in content,
no one had an
interest in changing Luke's text, which represents one
of the
factions Mark warned against.

Rick


Rick Richmond rickr2889@...

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The only thing I would caution is against assuming that Luke's undoubted creativity here is totally arbitrary, untied to any "justification", even if his "reasons" would seem uncompelling to us. There is just too much we don't know about how the gospels were composed.  

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My internet connection was down last night so I did
not have the opportunity to see this post by Bruce
before posting my own take on the twelve. I am
delighted to see that his rationale comes from a
different angle completely but arrives at essentially
the same conclusions as my own regarding the
occurences of Twleve within the text of Mark.

Thank you for your contribution Bruce. I realize that
you are not agreeing with me and I am only expressing
my appreciation for the work you did to make your post
on the issue.

Rick




--- In Synoptic@yahoogroups.com, "E Bruce Brooks"
<brooks@a...> wrote:
> [Third try; address problems]
>
> To: Synoptic
> In Response To: John Lupia (in re Rick Richmond
proposal)
> On: Coding in Mark
> From: Bruce
>
> I will confess, perhaps as a personal disability, a
lack of enthusiasm for
> Baconian ciphers and similar proposals. But it is
true that sometimes
> ancient texts tried to protect themselves against
subsequent alteration (not
> always with success), or otherwise distinctively
identify themselves, and I
> wouldn't rule out, a priori, the sort of thing Rick
is proposing. John Lupia
> pointed out in refutation that the proposed key
numerals occur more times in
> GMk than Rick's theory calls for. That's a valid
objection only if our text
> of GMk has not been interpolated or extended
subsequent to the coding. I
> think there is room for doubt here. For instance,
John's list of HEPTA
> occurrences ends with "Mk 16:9 original," but I
would be prepared to argue
> that nothing after Mk 16:8 can be original.
>
> As an extended example of where further
consideration might be possible, I
> here take up John's list of 15 GMk occurrences of
DODEKA "twelve." For
> convenience, I asterisk the entries that seem to me
doubtfully original, or
> perhaps better doubtfully early, in GMk.
>
> THE LIST
>
> Mk 3:14 "and he appointed twelve" (B, A, D). OK. But
note that the following
> phrase, "whom also he designated apostles" (B, not A
or D) is bracketed in
> Nestle-Aland 26; I would agree.
>
> *Mk 3:16 "[and he appointed the twelve] and he gave
the name Peter to Simon
> . . ." (the bracketed phrase in Nestle-Aland 26 has
support from B, not A or
> D; I would agree to exclude it). Not necessarily a
valid example.
>
> *Mk 4:10 "the ones around him with the twelve"
("twelve" has support from B,
> A but not D; I note that "the ones around him" may
be appositive with "the
> twelve," supporting the idea that "twelve" here is
extraneous). Not
> necessarily a valid example.
>
> Mk 5:25 "a woman with a flow of blood twelve years"
("twelve" in B, A, D,
> with slight variation in adjoining text; so also
passim below). OK.
>
> Mk 5:42 "for she was twelve years old" (B, A, D; no
problem). OK
>
> Mk 6:7 "and he summons the twelve" (B, A, D. I have
earlier argued that this
> passage is an interpolation, and still prefer that
conclusion, but now with
> the modification that the interpolation may be at a
layer antedating the
> split between the archetypes of B and D). Keep for
now.
>
> Mk 6:43 "and they picked up fragments twelve
basketsful" (B, A, D); OK
>
> Mk 8:19 "they say to him, Twelve" (B, A, D; same
note as Mk 6:7). Keep for
> now.
>
> Mk 9:35 "and having sat down, he called the Twelve"
[first dispute about who
> is greatest among the disciples] (B, A, D). Not
early, but keep for now.
>
> Mk 10:32 "and having taken again the Twelve" (B, A,
D). OK
>
> Mk 11:11 "went out to Bethany with the Twelve" (B,
A, D). OK
>
> *Mk 14:10 "and Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve"
(B, D, no A). Seeming
> gloss. Given spotty MS support, not necessarily a
valid example.
>
> Mk 14:17 "he comes with the Twelve" (B, A, D). OK
>
> Mk 14:20 "he said to them, One of the Twelve," (B,
A, D). Arguable as a
> dispensable appositive (on the following phrase),
but with good MS support.
> Keep for now.
>
> Mk 14:43 "arrives Judas, one of the Twelve" (B, A,
D). Same note as 14:20.
> Keep for now.
>
> CONCLUSION
>
> That's the lot. To put it briefly, and unless I have
miscounted somewhere,
> if we limit ourselves to "twelve" passages attested
in all three of
> Vaticanus, Alexandrinus, and Bezae, we find the
concordance list of 15
> reduced to, uh, hmm, well, it seems to be 12. Of
Rick's proposed code
> numbers, I am willing to admit that I would have
picked 12 as perhaps the
> most convincingly symbolic, and thus the most
plausible for a theory of this
> type.
>
> I still don't like it, but I suggest that this
particular refutation of it
> may not be itself irrefutable.
>
> Bruce
>
> E Bruce Brooks
> Warring States Project
> University of Massachusetts at Amherst

Rick Richmond rickr2889@...

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Unlike the text of Mark which is Pauline in content, no one had an
interest in changing Luke's text, which represents one of the
factions Mark warned against.

Rick

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3.) On the trip to the other side the disciples become
aware that they have forgotten to take loaves. Note
that it is in the plural form of noun ARTOUS. The
point is not that they forgot to bring food; they
forgot to bring the loaves necessary to celebrate the
Eucharist.

Chuck:

This is an excellent example of an anachronistic reading.  The Eucharist evolved over multiple decades after Jesus died, and there is no evidence in Mark of an awareness of a tradition of re-enacting the Last Supper.  Are you suggesting Mark would have his readers believe the disciples celebrated the Lord's Supper before there was a Last Supper?

Richard:

4.) In Mark’s narrative the fact that the disciples
would even discuss not having loaves is an indication
to Jesus that they do not understand the point of the
feeding parables.

Chuck:

The feedings were not parables.  They were miracle stories and were not recorded in the synoptics to teach symbollic or allegorical lessons (Jn interprets the feeding of the 5,000 allegorically in his gospel, making it even more striking that the synoptics do NOT do this).

Richard:

8.) There are two points that Mark wants his readers
to get from this symbolic equation. First, among the
twelve disciples only five were called by Jesus.
Secondly the way to recognize the leaven of the
Pharisees and of Herod is by doing the Math i.e. by
counting as in comparing the ratio of loaves to the
number of baskets of leftovers. 

Chuck:

If this was what Mark wanted his readers to understand, he failed miserably, didn't he?

Chuck Jones

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Unlike the text of Mark which is Pauline in content, no one had an
interest in changing Luke's text, which represents one of the
factions Mark warned against.

Rick

--- In Synoptic@yahoogroups.com, John Lupia <jlupia2@y...> wrote:
> --- Wieland Willker <willker@c...>
> wrote:
>
> > Hey and Lk has 12, too!
>
> Actually Lk is the only Gospel that  has
> uncontroversially 12 instances of dodeka. Unless, of
> course one argues to include Acts 26:7, then like Mt
> it equals 13. But who is to say what the code is?
> Perhaps, as in all cryptography, the code calls for
> adding one or subtracting one, or some other number.
> But if someone can work out a system that is
> consistent and has weight then it may have a
> possibility, if it can be shown that 1st century
> authors did this sort of thing with numbers. The
> syllogism codes od AEIO propositions is very ancient
> and would seem to me to be more logical.
>
> Best regards,
> John N. Lupia, III
>
>
>
> John N. Lupia, III
> Beachwood,  New Jersey 08722 USA
> Fax: (732) 349-3910
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
> God Bless America
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com

KAI EXHLQON hOI FARISAIOI KAI HRXANTO SUZHTEIN AUTWi
and came the Pharisees and began to debate with him

ZHTOUNTES PAR AUTOU SHMEION APO TOU OURANOU
seeking a sign from him, a sign from heaven

PEIRAZONTES AUTON KAI ANASTENAXAS TWi PNEUMATI AUTOU
And groaning in the spirit of him

LEGEI TI hH GENEA hAUTH ZHTEI SHMEION
he says "why does this generation seek a sign?


AMHN LEGW hUMIN EI DOQHSETAI THi GENEAi TAUTHi SHMEION

Truly I tell you if will be given to this generation
a sign

KAI AFEIS AUTOUS PALIN EMBAS APHLQEN EIS TO PERAN
and leaving them again embarking he went away to the
other side

KAI EPELAQONTO LABEIN ARTOUS KAI EI MH hENA ARTON OUK
EICON
and they forgot to take loaves and except one loaf the
had
not

MEQ hEAUTWN EN TWi PLOIWi KAI DIESTELLETO AUTOIS LEGWN
with themselves in the ship and and he forbid them
saying

hORATE BLEPETE APO THS ZUMHS TWN FARISAIWN KAI THS
Perceive, Look away from the leaven of the Pharicees
and the

ZUMHS hHRWiDOU KAI DIELOGIZONTO PROS ALLHLOUS hOTI
from the leaven of Herod and they reasoned with one
another

ARTOUS OUK ECOUSIN KAI GNOUS LEGEI AUTOIS TI
That loavs they had not, knowing (that they reason
thus) he
says to them

DIALOGIZESQE hOTI ARTOUS OUK ECETE OUPW NOEITE OUDE
why do you discuss that loves you have not not yet

SUNIETE PEPWRWMENHN ECETE THN KARDIAN hUMWN OFQALMOUS
do your having been hardened, has your heart? eyes

ECONTES OU BLEPETE KAI WTA ECONTES OUK AKOUETE KAI OU
having do you not see and ears having do you not hear
and not


MNHMONEUETE hOTE TOUS PENTE ARTOUS EKLASA EIS TOUS
and do you remember when the five loaves I broke to
the

PENTAKISCILIOUS POSOUS KOFINOUS KLASMATWN PLHREIS
five thousand how many of Kosher baskets of frangments
full

HRATE LEGOUSIN AUTWi DWDEKA hOTE TOUS hEPTA EIS TOUS
you took they say to him twelve, when the seven into
the

TETRAKISCILIOUS POSWN SPURIDWN PLHRWMATA KLASMATWN
four thousand of how many baskets of fulnesses of
fragments

HRATE KAI LEGOUSIN AUTWi hEPTA
you took and they say seven.

Several Points need to be made concerning this text
before we move to the issue of the twelve.

1.) The Pharisees ask for a sign  and Jesus' response
is not to deny them a sign only to say that he will
tell them if a sign will be given. Why not just say no
sign will be given to this generation?  I suggest it
is because, in a few lines a sign will be given to “
this generation” but not to the disbelieving
Pharisees.

2.) He takes himself away from the Pharisees and is in
the boat with disciples. We do not know if there are
twelve disciples nor if they are "his own disciples"
and we must not assume either at this point.

3.) On the trip to the other side the disciples become
aware that they have forgotten to take loaves. Note
that it is in the plural form of noun ARTOUS. The
point is not that they forgot to bring food; they
forgot to bring the loaves necessary to celebrate the
Eucharist. I believe the traveling missionaries like
the Essenes carried loaves to represent the loaves of
the setting forth. It was this bread that the Essenes
called "the sacred food of the masters. In the early
movement of the Way this bread was part of the Agape
meal. It was celebrated daily and in the Essene
communities. According to the Community Rule of Qumran
the meal was presided over by a priest There was also
a ritual of washing that took place before the eating
of the sacred food and it is that ritual washing that
comes into play in Mark chapter seven where the
Pharisees criticize Jesus for allowing his disciples
to eat the loaves with unwashed hands. Notice that
noun is plural, loaves in Mark 7:2.and it has the
definite article. All of this is to show that the
forbidden bread of Mark 6:8, and the forgotten bread
of 8:16 is the bread of the Eucharist not ordinary
bread.

4.) In Mark’s narrative the fact that the disciples
would even discuss not having loaves is an indication
to Jesus that they do not understand the point of the
feeding parables. They are like outsiders seeing but
not perceiving, hearing but not understanding.

5.) The explanation that Jesus gives has as its focus,
the meaning of the feeding stories and in particular
the issue of the loaves. In effect he is saying "do
the math." Interesting that such an expression fits a
situation almost 2000 years old.

6.) Five loaves divided by 5000 men yielded 12 kosher
baskets of leftovers. There is much that could be said
about the military overtones of the first feeding
story but for now we need to focus on the bread and
the full kosher baskets (KOFINWN) of leftovers. The
repetition of the kosher type of basket here from 6:43
in chapter is deliberate to be sure and an
unmistakable reference to the nature of the teaching,
what was leftover from the first feeding was Jewish.
We do not have the information necessary to do the
math yet because we only have the first half of the
equation. Note that Mark is not so meticulous as to
repeat the fact that the five thousand were men, a
point not cogent to the matter at  hand.

7.) Seven loaves (the number of Gentile Nations for
Jews) divided by 4000 people yields only 7 regular
baskets of fulnesses. The math indicates that the
second feeding  resulted in a ratio of one loaf to one
basket. Now the warning at the beginning of this
narrative comes into view. The ratio of loaves to
baskets in the first feeding where the baskets were
kosher has 7 too many baskets of leftovers. What began
as five loaves came to be 12 Kosher baskets. And the
cause of the increase by implication is the leaven
ascribed to the Pharisees and to Herod.

8.) There are two points that Mark wants his readers
to get from this symbolic equation. First, among the
twelve disciples only five were called by Jesus.
Secondly the way to recognize the leaven of the
Pharisees and of Herod is by doing the Math i.e. by
counting as in comparing the ratio of loaves to the
number of baskets of leftovers.

The first order of business then is to count the
disciples that Jesus actually calls within the
narrative. We have Andrew and Peter, James and John,
and Levi. These are the disciples to which Jesus
actually issued an invitation according to Mark's
narrative. Now you might think this is mere
coincidence; five called five loaves. If you follow
the flow of the plot and the themes in Mark's
narrative it is integral to what he is saying. So what
about the other seven disciples? According to Mark
they constitute the leaven introduced by the Pharisees
and by Herod, spies if you will. So then what can we
say about Mark 3:14 to 3:19b where Jesus called the
twelve to him and surnamed Simon; where the text
provides us with the list of the twelve? Nothing more
than others have pointed out before, that this section
interrupts the flow of the text and has the appearance
of an interpolation. It is obvious than any redactor
of the opposition would regard this little snip and
essential to the primacy of the twelve in the
movement. An interesting point is that Mark tells us
absolutely nothing about any of the other 7 apostles
save Judas. And according to Mark he would constitute
leaven or shall we say a spy. What happened to the
rest of the twelve and why are thy so unimportant that
Mark does nothing to develop their characters?.
Already you can see that we have by virtue of counting
the disciples discovered a discrepancy and eliminated
one of the text that forms the 15 occurrences of the
word twelve. It is very important to remember that
Mark's opposition made their changes to his text very
early, but perhaps not early enough. The interpolation
of 3:14 to 3:19b clearly shows that Mark anticipated
the introduction of the twelve as true disciples
within his own text by opposing factions and by use of
the riddle has actually exposed the interpolation
before it was made. He knew in advance that those who
wanted to promote the twelve would simply included the
traditional list and promote the notion that Jesus
called them by choice. They could never completely
replace what he wrote do to the nature of his
protection scheme within the document. Attempts to
distribute a copy of Mark with many changers would
result in failure by virtue of immediate recognition
by those in the know. Repeated attempts to forge Mark
offer the best explanation for understanding how two
other documents that include so much of his text came
about. Add to this the fact that these contemporary
documents include adjustments to accommodate more
traditionally Jewish views and you have an interesting
mix.

A second text to consider that makes use of the term
twelve is at Mark 4:10. Mark has a habit of
introducing numbers at certain points in the text. for
the number 12,  that would likely be in the narrative
of the woman with the issue of blood. There is no
obvious connection to the disciples which leads me to
suspect the occurrences that precede the woman with
the issue of blood for twelve years.

KAI hOTE EGENETO KATA MONAS HRWTWN AUTON hOI PERI
AUTON SUN TOIS DWDEKA TAS PARABOLAS
and when he was alone asked him the ones round him
together with the twelve the parables

From a literary stand point it is easy to see
"together with the twelve" as a expansion of an
earlier text to add the twelve into this important
passage that forms the key to understanding all the
parables. But in contrast chapter eight indicates that
the disciples in question did not understand nor does
Jesus explain the parables of the feeding stories in
normal terms as he does the parable of the soils in
this passage. From a text critical perspective we have
the witness of Codex D and Codex W that indicate “the
twelve” was not originally at this point in the text.
Some of the copies must have escaped any correction at
this point in the text.

So then where is the final interpolation that would
bring us to the exact number of twelve occurrences? We
can look at 6:7. This is such an important point for
the people of the Way and for the leaders of the
movement that it would have been one of the very first
changes introduced to the text of Mark if his text had
failed to associate the apostolic commission with the
twelve. It is dealing with the commissioning of
disciples to preach the Gospel. It is important to
remember that according to our interpretation of the
riddle, Mark does not regard all of the Twelve to be
authentic apostles of Jesus.  Therefore, it is not
likely that he would present the scenario that Jesus
called them to him, to send them forth. On the other
hand if he intends to show that they were disobedient
he might use the designation to identify a group that
did in fact exist in the early church. The first use
of the word twelve was at 5:25 but unrelated to the
apostles. My impression from the Pauline literature is
that Paul did not regard the Twelve as apostles. (I am
sure that someone will refer me to 1Corinthians 15:5
and the single time where Paul is presented as
mentioning the Twelve. I have taken that text into
consideration but do not regard it as from Paul and
even if it were it does not indicate that he regarded
the twelve as apostles).
I do see that he regards Peter, James and John as such
in the epistle to the Galatians, where he refers to
them as "those who were apostles before me." The fact
that the number twelve is not mentioned by Mark in the
return of those disciples that had been sent out and
that the term is absent at both feeding stories leads
me to conclude that this text is likely to have been
altered. Even in disobedience Mark is not promoting
the idea that it was the Twelve who here disobedient.

So there you have my take on the incidents where
twelve appears in the text of Mark.
Next I will demonstrate the consistency shown by Mark
in the times where key words conform to the numbers 5,
7 and 12.

Peace,

Rick

Rick Richmond rickr2889@...



____________________________________________________
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--- Wieland Willker <willker@...>
wrote:

> Hey and Lk has 12, too!

Actually Lk is the only Gospel that  has
uncontroversially 12 instances of dodeka. Unless, of
course one argues to include Acts 26:7, then like Mt
it equals 13. But who is to say what the code is?
Perhaps, as in all cryptography, the code calls for
adding one or subtracting one, or some other number.
But if someone can work out a system that is
consistent and has weight then it may have a
possibility, if it can be shown that 1st century
authors did this sort of thing with numbers. The
syllogism codes od AEIO propositions is very ancient
and would seem to me to be more logical.

Best regards,
John N. Lupia, III



John N. Lupia, III
Beachwood,  New Jersey 08722 USA
Fax: (732) 349-3910
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
God Bless America

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--- E Bruce Brooks <brooks@...> wrote:

The proposal to decipher the original text or to
arrive at the original text as encrypted is very
interesting. I have investigated this, not
exhaustively, to find the Aristotelean
computationallogic:
All x are y:
No x is y: A(x,y)
E(x,y) Some x are y:
Some x are not y: I(x,y)
O(x,y)

Using an incunabula in my library: P. Tartaretus,
Expositio super summulae Petri Hispani (Paris: Andre
Bocard, 1494) we see syllogisms written in code:
Bamalip, Barbara, , Barbari, Baralipton, Baroco,
Bocardo, Bramantip, Camenes, Camestres, Celantes,
Celaront , Celarent, Cesare, Darapti, Darii,Datisi,
Dimatis, Disamis, Fapesmo, Felapton, Ferio, Ferioque,
Fesapo, Fresison, Festino, Frisesomorum, Quarta,
Quartae, Tertia, etc.

Now in Greek "Cesare" is "Kaisar". So instead of an
EAE proposition it is an AIA proposition. Taking the
verses where Cesare is cited in any Gospel one can
begin to look for evidence of syllogisms encoded in
the squares of the truth tables of logic.

Most are familiar with logic square "Sator Arepo" :

SATOR
AREPO
TENET
OPERA
ROTAS.

The message is read up and down and across.

Looking for syllogistic patterns in the squares of the
truth tables of logic is very worthwhile.

Best regards,
John N. Lupia, III

John N. Lupia, III
Beachwood,  New Jersey 08722 USA
Fax: (732) 349-3910
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
God Bless America

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Hey and Lk has 12, too!
Mt, hmm 13, probably some TC error here?

:-)

Best wishes
     Wieland
        <><
------------------------------------------------
Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
mailto:willker@...
http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
Textcritical commentary:
http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html

On 08/07/05, Joseph Weaks <j.weaks@...> wrote:

> All list messages prior to the switch are archived separately at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/synoptic-l
>
> Currently, the last message in the old archives is dated:
> July 7, 2005 8:06 PM Eastern daylight time/July 8, 2005 12:06  AM GMT
> but I don't know if Mark has disabled the old list-serv yet, so don't
> know if that's all there will be.

Thanks for that, Joe.  Yes, this was the reason I was a bit annoyed
with the Yahoo!Groups help.  What I was asking for was that we conjoin
the old archive to the newly hosted group or in their terms make this
"remote" group a Yahoo!Groups hosted group.  It used to be possible to
make the switch, but alas no longer.

But what I've done is to provide a link to the old archive as well as
to the new group and archive on the homepage at
http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-l.

I have blocked access to the old majordomo list now so that no further
messages can go through on that.  I'll close it down soon.

Mark
--
Dr Mark Goodacre                 mailto:Goodacre@...
   Dept of Theology and Religion
   University of Birmingham
   Elmfield House, Selly Oak      tel.+44 121 414 7512
   Birmingham    B29 6LQ  UK      fax: +44 121 415 8376

http://www.theology.bham.ac.uk/goodacre
http://NTGateway.com

[Third try; address problems]

To: Synoptic
In Response To: John Lupia (in re Rick Richmond proposal)
On: Coding in Mark
From: Bruce

I will confess, perhaps as a personal disability, a lack of enthusiasm for
Baconian ciphers and similar proposals. But it is true that sometimes
ancient texts tried to protect themselves against subsequent alteration (not
always with success), or otherwise distinctively identify themselves, and I
wouldn't rule out, a priori, the sort of thing Rick is proposing. John Lupia
pointed out in refutation that the proposed key numerals occur more times in
GMk than Rick's theory calls for. That's a valid objection only if our text
of GMk has not been interpolated or extended subsequent to the coding. I
think there is room for doubt here. For instance, John's list of HEPTA
occurrences ends with "Mk 16:9 original," but I would be prepared to argue
that nothing after Mk 16:8 can be original.

As an extended example of where further consideration might be possible, I
here take up John's list of 15 GMk occurrences of DODEKA "twelve." For
convenience, I asterisk the entries that seem to me doubtfully original, or
perhaps better doubtfully early, in GMk.

THE LIST

Mk 3:14 "and he appointed twelve" (B, A, D). OK. But note that the following
phrase, "whom also he designated apostles" (B, not A or D) is bracketed in
Nestle-Aland 26; I would agree.

*Mk 3:16 "[and he appointed the twelve] and he gave the name Peter to Simon
. . ." (the bracketed phrase in Nestle-Aland 26 has support from B, not A or
D; I would agree to exclude it). Not necessarily a valid example.

*Mk 4:10 "the ones around him with the twelve" ("twelve" has support from B,
A but not D; I note that "the ones around him" may be appositive with "the
twelve," supporting the idea that "twelve" here is extraneous). Not
necessarily a valid example.

Mk 5:25 "a woman with a flow of blood twelve years" ("twelve" in B, A, D,
with slight variation in adjoining text; so also passim below). OK.

Mk 5:42 "for she was twelve years old" (B, A, D; no problem). OK

Mk 6:7 "and he summons the twelve" (B, A, D. I have earlier argued that this
passage is an interpolation, and still prefer that conclusion, but now with
the modification that the interpolation may be at a layer antedating the
split between the archetypes of B and D). Keep for now.

Mk 6:43 "and they picked up fragments twelve basketsful" (B, A, D); OK

Mk 8:19 "they say to him, Twelve" (B, A, D; same note as Mk 6:7). Keep for
now.

Mk 9:35 "and having sat down, he called the Twelve" [first dispute about who
is greatest among the disciples] (B, A, D). Not early, but keep for now.

Mk 10:32 "and having taken again the Twelve" (B, A, D). OK

Mk 11:11 "went out to Bethany with the Twelve" (B, A, D). OK

*Mk 14:10 "and Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve" (B, D, no A). Seeming
gloss. Given spotty MS support, not necessarily a valid example.

Mk 14:17 "he comes with the Twelve" (B, A, D). OK

Mk 14:20 "he said to them, One of the Twelve," (B, A, D). Arguable as a
dispensable appositive (on the following phrase), but with good MS support.
Keep for now.

Mk 14:43 "arrives Judas, one of the Twelve" (B, A, D). Same note as 14:20.
Keep for now.

CONCLUSION

That's the lot. To put it briefly, and unless I have miscounted somewhere,
if we limit ourselves to "twelve" passages attested in all three of
Vaticanus, Alexandrinus, and Bezae, we find the concordance list of 15
reduced to, uh, hmm, well, it seems to be 12. Of Rick's proposed code
numbers, I am willing to admit that I would have picked 12 as perhaps the
most convincingly symbolic, and thus the most plausible for a theory of this
type.

I still don't like it, but I suggest that this particular refutation of it
may not be itself irrefutable.

Bruce

E Bruce Brooks
Warring States Project
University of Massachusetts at Amherst

> me "Number One"?  (with apologies to all non-Star Trek fans).

Much better than "Austin Powers" version. :-D

Jamie

On Jul 7, 2005, at 6:46 PM, John N. Lupia wrote:
> I noticed there are only
> two messages in the archives. Where are all of the old messages? How
> can
> we access them?

All list messages prior to the switch are archived separately at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/synoptic-l

Currently, the last message in the old archives is dated:
July 7, 2005 8:06 PM Eastern daylight time/July 8, 2005 12:06  AM GMT
but I don't know if Mark has disabled the old list-serv yet, so don't
know if that's all there will be.

Cheers,
Joe

**************************************************************
Rev. Joseph A. Weaks
Ph.D. (Cand.), Brite Divinity School, Ft. Worth
j.weaks@...

The Macintosh Biblioblog  http://macbiblioblog.blogspot.com
"All things Macintosh for the Bible Scholar"
**************************************************************

Dear Mark:

I appreciate all of your hard work to maintain this list. I noticed there are
only
two messages in the archives. Where are all of the old messages? How can
we access them?

Thanks.

With warm regards,
John N. Lupia, III

I am currently in the process of inviting current Synoptic-L members
to join the new group over at Yahoo!Groups.  I have to do this in
batches of 50 at a time, so it will take a while to get through them
all, but you should all have your invitation tonight.  I note that
some email addresses are coming back with "Does not accept
invitations" and a couple with "not a valid email address".  If you do
not receive an invitation to join, please join at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Synoptic.  Any questions, please be in
touch.

With best wishes
Mark
--
Dr Mark Goodacre                 mailto:Goodacre@...
   Dept of Theology and Religion
   University of Birmingham
   Elmfield House, Selly Oak      tel.+44 121 414 7512
   Birmingham    B29 6LQ  UK      fax: +44 121 415 8376

http://www.theology.bham.ac.uk/goodacre
http://NTGateway.com

On Jul 7, 2005, at 6:24 PM, Synoptic Moderator wrote:
> Welcome to the Synoptic group at Yahoo! Groups

Mark, I was the first one to accept your invitation to join, making me
the first list member after you, the owner.  Does mean you can now call
me "Number One"?  (with apologies to all non-Star Trek fans).

Joe

I am about to begin the transition from majordomo at Birmingham to
Yahoo!Groups.  The new list address will be Synoptic@yahoogroups.com.
You can manage your subscription from
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/synoptic/ .  Full details concerning
subscribing and unsubscribing and the like are found on the group's
new homepage at http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-l.

This should be the last message under the old address, which will now
be discontinued.

Any questions, please let me know.

See you over on Yahoo!
Mark
--
Dr Mark Goodacre                 mailto:Goodacre@...
   Dept of Theology and Religion
   University of Birmingham
   Elmfield House, Selly Oak      tel.+44 121 414 7512
   Birmingham    B29 6LQ  UK      fax: +44 121 415 8376

http://www.theology.bham.ac.uk/goodacre
http://NTGateway.com

First message to Synoptic-L's new host at Yahoo!Groups.
--
Dr Mark Goodacre                 mailto:Goodacre@...
   Dept of Theology and Religion
   University of Birmingham
   Elmfield House, Selly Oak      tel.+44 121 414 7512
   Birmingham    B29 6LQ  UK      fax: +44 121 415 8376

http://www.theology.bham.ac.uk/goodacre
http://NTGateway.com