To: EarlyFla_SE_History@yahoogroups.com
From: burke.calderon@...
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 16:44:35 -0500
Subject: [EarlyFla_SE_History] Mission Won't Be the Same without Historian Hann


Copyright ©2009

The Tallahassee Democrat

Sunday, November 22, 2009

Mission Won't Be the Same without Historian Hann

Gerald Ensley - The View From Here

Tallahassee's most historic site reaches another milestone Dec. 13 when Mission
San Luis opens its new visitor center. The Spanish-styled, 24,000-square-foot
facility provides a modern introduction to the ancient village of Spanish
settlers and Apalachee Indians ( http://www.missionsanluis.org/ ).

But the man who's arguably done the most to tell the mission's story will miss
the debut: John Hann died Nov. 7 after a year-long battle with Parkinson's
disease.

Hann, 86, was the leading historian on the Florida period when Europeans first
arrived. He had been the senior historian at Mission San Luis since the state
bought the site in 1983. He wrote nearly a dozen books about early Florida and
co-authored the definitive text about Mission San Luis.

There's an ache in the heart of all who care about Florida history.

"I loved John to bits and will always consider it one of the great honors of my
life to have worked with him for 20 years," said mission director Bonnie McEwan,
who co-authored Hann's book about Mission San Luis. "He laid the foundation for
everything that was done here."

A native of Lowell, Mass., Hann began his career as a Catholic priest and spent
several years as a missionary in Brazil.

He left the priesthood for academia, earning a Ph.D. in Latin American history
from the University of Texas and coming to Tallahassee in the early 1960s to
teach at Florida State.

There is irony to Hann's successful career as an author — or perhaps just sweet
redemption. He could not gain tenure at FSU, Florida Atlantic or New Mexico
State because he failed to publish.

Then he went to Mission San Luis and flowered into a prolific author. He wrote a
trilogy of histories covering all the Indians of North, Central and South
Florida. He wrote ground-breaking histories of Timucuans and Apalachee Indians.
He wrote books about Spanish explorers.

He became the only historian to win the Florida Historical Society's annual
award for best book on Florida history four times.

"Most historians don't like working with the (European) contact period because
they have fewer documents to work with," said East Carolina professor Charles
Ewen, who co-authored with Hann a book about Hernando de Soto. "But John did the
unglamorous leg work. He slogged through and came up with a gold mine."

Much of Hann's work involved translating early Spanish journals and documents, a
task to which he brought fluency in Spanish and Portuguese. To read his books is
to learn about the difficulty and nuances of translation. He would explain the
problems caused when a word for "millet" was mis-translated as "sorghum." Or how
translations erroneously abbreviated key points or erroneously joined unrelated
facts.

"With history, we keep writing new books, not because we discover new stuff but
because perspectives change," Ewen said. "But the work John did will stand the
test of time."

Though Hann wrote about the early people of all Florida, his passion was Mission
San Luis. Understandably.

The lifelong bachelor lived in a small apartment at the mission for more than a
decade. Before 17th century structures, costumed interpreters and a steady
stream of visitors filled its 65 acres, he walked every inch of the mission. He
listened to its echoes — then wrote the books about the Spanish friars and
Indian warriors whose voices once filled the wind.

"John brought a unique perspective because he had been a missionary himself,"
McEwan said. "He had great empathy for what the friars had done. He understood
what it was like to be put on a ship, sent to a small village, learn to
communicate and make a difference in their lives, hopefully for the better."

Hann was not exactly Mr. Personality. Tall, with a penetrating gaze accented by
bushy eyebrows, he spoke somberly in a deep voice. He was not given to
light-hearted banter: "You could tell him jokes but he wouldn't get them," Ewen
said. McEwan said some found him grumpy because he ignored them in public —
though that was largely because of failing vision that rendered him nearly
legally blind.

But few ever doubted his intellect or generosity. Twenty years ago, historians
rarely worked with archaeologists, considering their digging in the dirt only
tangential to the big scope of history. But Hann sought out archaeologists for
information and partnerships, forging the type of relations between the two
fields that are common now.

"John was on the cutting edge (of new collaborations)," Ewen said. "If you were
interested in what John was interested, you were OK with him."

Which benefitted all of us.


# Contact Senior Writer Gerald Ensley at (850) 599-2310 or
gensley@....

Hi Lee,

I really enjoyed the photos. I have to end you a copy of your dance rehearsal
from March. Please say high to Shirley and Ken for me.

Saludos,
Eliud

--- In Soldados@yahoogroups.com, "virgilee711" <campbell71165@...> wrote:
>
> Soldados, some pics of dancing and some clothing for your perusal.
> In case you were curious, the unofficial motto of the group is:
> "Will Dance for supper..." (with the modern addendum) "and gasoline... and
travel expenses..."
>
> Thanks for looking.
>
> Lee
> "El Tecolero"
>

Soldados, some pics of dancing and some clothing for your perusal.
In case you were curious, the unofficial motto of the group is:
"Will Dance for supper..." (with the modern addendum) "and gasoline... and
travel expenses..."

Thanks for looking.

Lee
"El Tecolero"

Thanks for your kind permission.
Photos of Curiosities and such. Some apply to "Soldados", some, not so much--but
these are hand-made; for Sale or Trade.
Bottom line? I really want things I make to go to re-enactors and History
people! In other words, to a good home and to folks who appreciate the effort
involved. Constructive comments, feedback or ideas for projects are appreciated.

Thanks for looking!

Lee

Yes. Yes.  Yes (we discussed the last in prior posts). But absolutely yes, Lee!
           iv
Sent from El Quatro, not just another CrackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: "virgilee711" <campbell71165@...>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 04:19:03
To: <Soldados@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Soldados] Q's to Moderator(s)

May I begin a Photo folder?
May I post pics of the Alta California Dance Company in said folder?
May I post pics of items for sale/trade?

Thanks.
Lee





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

May I begin a Photo folder?
May I post pics of the Alta California Dance Company in said folder?
May I post pics of items for sale/trade?

Thanks.
Lee

Calling all Dancing Soldados and their families!

The Alta California Dance Company would like to invite everyone within range of
Monterey to come dance and have some fun with us at the
"House of the Four Winds" on Calle Principal(downtown); Thursday December 10th
and Saturday December 12th, 5PM to 9PM.

Period attire is "Admired but not required." The ACDC group is focused on the
dances and customs of California of the 1830's-1840's; (Pre American 'Invasion',
aka the "Gold Rush")

If you or your family would like to dance with us, we may be able to make
arrangements to get you in sans cost; however if you wish to tour other Adobes,
you'll need to purchase tix through M.S.H.P. at the Cooper-Molera Store.

RSVP me ASAP! (Frank! Eliud! Rick! Anyone?)

Lee
"El Tecolero"

I will repeat my question as I was moving too fast at work and was
unclear in my request (thanks Bob).



I'm looking for information on how to attach hooks and eyes to cocked
hats. This apparently was a feature of Spanish hats (and some French) in
the New World (as opposed to the round hat used by the British).

(There is a vendor somewhere in the states that makes a high quality hat
that does have hooks and eyes).



My fear is that by simply stitching in the hooks and eyes the felt will
tear. Has anyone done this? Perhaps Luisiana troops?



   I would be grateful to hear if anyone knows how this was accomplished.




Rick

Presidio del Tucson





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm told there is a vendor that sells high quality cocked hats with
hooks and eyes.



Does anyone know how this is done?



Rick



Predisio del Tucson





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Doesn't that site look beautiful. It would be fun to go once we have enough
together to do so.

Betsy

Please note: message attached

From: "Eric Paul Ziegler" <thezieg@...>
To: <Soldados@yahoogroups.com>, <ttomlin@...>
Subject: RE: [Soldados] Creede rendezvous
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 08:59:35 -0700


____________________________________________________________
Manufacturer-Direct Hardwood Floors
Never pay retail again. Wholesale prices on all hardwood floors!
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zDpWrtvccEKr98AAQAAAAFAAAAAKRmwT4AAAMlAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANldAAAAAA=

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You would be most welcome. The era restrictions can be fuzzy. Some take pre1840
to mean anything going all the way back to the stone age. However most go with
the start of the American fur trade in the late 1600s through 1840. 1840 having
been significant since it was the last year that a fur trade rendezvous was held
in the west. So yes your group of soldados will fit in just fine, there are
always several at these type of events representing the earlier American
colonial era.

--- On Mon, 11/16/09, Eric Paul Ziegler <thezieg@...> wrote:


From: Eric Paul Ziegler <thezieg@...>
Subject: RE: [Soldados] Creede rendezvous
To: Soldados@yahoogroups.com, ttomlin@...
Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 3:59 PM


 



Taylor et al.,

My little band of aspiring soldados de cuera won’t be able to make this
event for a year or so, but I’m wondering about the era restrictions.
Nothing post-1840, but how about pre-fur trade era? We’re doing 1750
impressions. Would we be welcome (provided we followed all the rules)?

Zieg

Eric Paul Ziegler
Double E Farm
Elizabeth CO
classicalequitation @gmail.com
____________ _________ _________ _________ _
From: Soldados@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:Soldados@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf
Of Taylor Tomlin
Sent: Friday, 13 November, 2009 9:56 PM
To: ttomlin@neo. tamu.edu
Subject: [Soldados] Creede rendezvous

It is going to be a good one! This is by far the best event site and best
event I have ever been to and the event will be run by two of my best
friends who couldn't do a better job if they tried. I hope you all can
attend. I plan on riding into this one!
 
Taylor

http://www.rockymnt natlrendz. com/rendezvous20 06.html











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello, everyone. 

I'd like to do a little shameless self-promotion, if I may.  "Lorenzo and the
Pirate" is now available for pre-orders.  (Right in time for Christmas shopping,
too.)

To order from the publisher, please follow the link: 
http://www.bloomingtreepress.com/custserv.html

If you would like autographed/personalized copies, order directly from the
authors at 2201 Double Creek Drive, Suite 5001, Round Rock, Texas  78664.

The book is also available from amazon.com and other booksellers.

Here's a description of the book:

Lorenzo and the Pirate by Lila and Rick GuzmanHardcover $13.95


ISBN-10: 1933831154
ISBN-13: 978-1933831152


Lorenzo is off on his next adventure! This time, he sails the high
seas with pirates. It is 1779. Eighteen-year-old Lorenzo Bannister
boards a pirate ship to give medical aid and amputates the captain s
leg to save his life. The British attack and sink the pirate ship,
marooning Lorenzo and an amnesiac pirate on a deserted island.
Endorsed by Wesley Odom, Pensacola SAR, and Gov. Bill Richardson of New Mexico












[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Taylor et al.,

My little band of aspiring soldados de cuera won’t be able to make this
event for a year or so, but I’m wondering about the era restrictions.
Nothing post-1840, but how about pre-fur trade era?  We’re doing 1750
impressions.  Would we be welcome (provided we followed all the rules)?

Zieg

Eric Paul Ziegler
Double E Farm
Elizabeth CO
classicalequitation@...
________________________________________
From: Soldados@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Soldados@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Taylor Tomlin
Sent: Friday, 13 November, 2009 9:56 PM
To: ttomlin@...
Subject: [Soldados] Creede rendezvous

It is going to be a good one! This is by far the best event site and best
event I have ever been to and the event will be run by two of my best
friends who couldn't do a better job if they tried. I hope you all can
attend. I plan on riding into this one!
 
Taylor

http://www.rockymntnatlrendz.com/rendezvous2006.html

Handmade and mounted on an ash pole.  Battle ready and tested.
$150

Conical morion $60

Historic Enterprises Handgonne  (new) $850
http://historicenterprises.biz/handgonne-matchlock-late-15th-century-circa-14651\
520-p-683.html?cPath=101_207

Size 11 Medieval-style shoes, all leather, no farby rubber soles (new)
$40

Silk 15th Century cap   $40 (Historic Enterprises)

ECW Book $5

Elizabethan Militia $5

Osprey Elite Landskenect Soldiers $5

Clog overshoes $20 Size 11

Bodhran $20

Royal Flash DVD $10

Terry Jones Medieval Times DVD  $10



Thank you




BW




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It is going to be a good one! This is by far the best event site and best
event I have ever been to and the event will be run by two of my best friends
who couldn't do a better job if they tried. I hope you all can attend. I plan on
riding into this one!
 
Taylor
 
http://www.rockymntnatlrendz.com/rendezvous2006.html



#yiv732923317 #yiv36562503 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
#yiv732923317 #yiv36562503 {
font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}





 
 





Get free photo software from Windows Live Click here.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To: EarlyFla_SE_History@yahoogroups.com
From: daviswalker@...
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:55:04 +0000
Subject: [EarlyFla_SE_History] Re: Catholic Documents in Oldest US City
Preserved

I'll also add that the diocese of St. Augustine will dedicate a new museum in
early 2010 that will showcase the history of Catholicism in Florida. The museum
will operate in tandem with the diocesan archives and will be located on the
grounds of the Mission of Nombre de Dios ( http://www.missionandshrine.org/ ) in
St. Augustine.


--- In EarlyFla_SE_History@yahoogroups.com, "daviswwalker" <daviswalker@...>
wrote:

  Copyright 2009 Associated Press
  All Rights Reserved

The Associated Press

November 11, 2009 Wednesday 04:18 PM GMT

Catholic Documents in Oldest US City Preserved

By RON WORD, Associated Press Writer

DOMESTIC NEWS

ST. AUGUSTINE, Fla.

Sister Catherine Bitzer slowly opened a file box and carefully removed a brittle
page, scarred by years of neglectful storage, mold and insects. At 415 years
old, the marriage record written by a Roman Catholic priest is still readable
and is one of the oldest known European records from the United States.

It's among thousands of artifacts detailing the lives of the Spanish soldiers,
missionaries and merchants who settled St. Augustine, the nation's oldest
permanent city. The church kept the only official records, a role that today is
filled by government.

After being scattered from Florida and surviving destruction for centuries, they
are now safe in a newly renovated waterproof, fireproof and climate-controlled
building at the Diocese of St. Augustine, said Bitzer, the archivist of the
diocese.

Michael Gannon, a professor emeritus of history at the University of Florida,
calls the archives "a pocketful of miracles." He tracked down most of the
documents, which had traveled to Cuba, back to St. Augustine and then Notre
Dame, Ind.

The earliest documents detail the births, confirmations, marriages and deaths of
the Spanish residents in St. Augustine from 1594 to 1763, when the British took
over Florida.

Dated Jan. 24, 1594, and handwritten by Father Diego Escobar de Sambrana, the
record held by Bitzer details the marriage of soldier Gabriel Hernandez to
Catalina de Valdes in St. Augustine, some 26 years before the Pilgrims landed at
Plymouth Rock.

Other treasures in the archives include the records, headboard, and a piece of
the coffin belonging to Pedro Menendez de Aviles, the Spanish Navy admiral who
founded St. Augustine in 1565.

There are also records of the diocese's nine bishops and the Spanish colonial
government, and microfilm of records on explorations, the attacks of English and
French corsairs, the development of slavery and reports on Indian customs and
languages.

Missing from the collection are the documents from the first 29 years of
Catholic life in St. Augustine. Gannon believes they may have been destroyed by
Sir Francis Drake, the English privateer, who sacked the town in 1586.

Tracking down and consolidating the collection in the diocese archive, which
completed its renovation in September, has been a long project for Gannon and
other archivists.

For about a third of their existence, the documents have been away from St.
Augustine. When Spanish Florida became a British outpost in 1763, the 15-volume
parish records were placed in a crypt of the cathedral in Havana, Cuba,
remaining forgotten for 107 years.

The first bishop of St. Augustine, Augustin Verot, found 14 of the 15 volumes in
1871. The 15th volume was found in 1938. The documents were sent to the National
Archives in 1939, where they were encapsulated in transparent
cellulose-diacetate foil for protection.

By the early 1960s, when Gannon was working on his doctoral dissertation on
Verot, he began looking for documents detailing the lives of early Catholics in
St. Augustine.

"There was no collection of documents in Florida that any colleague could
identify," Gannon said.

In 1961, Gannon asked a maid in the cathedral rectory in St. Augustine if she
knew of any collections of old papers in the building. She directed Gannon to a
closet off the second-story hallway.

He found documents from the Vatican setting up St. Augustine as a diocese in
1871, Verot's diary and correspondence from five other bishops.

About that time, Gannon got the keys to two large Victorian houses that were
going to be demolished in St. Augustine. Hundreds of documents from bishops in
the 1940s and 1950s were inside.

Later in 1961, Gannon traveled to the University of Notre Dame to do research in
its library. The parish registers had been sent there during World War II in
1942 to protect them from German U-boat activity in the Atlantic Ocean. He found
them in the library attic, which he considered a fire hazard.

When they first came back to Florida, they were kept in the vault at St.
Augustine National Bank. Gannon later found them stacked in a hallway floor
opposite the boiler room in the Cathedral parish rectory.

"I felt especially blessed, as though divine force was leading me one step ahead
of the cleaning lady, one step ahead of the wrecking ball, one step ahead of a
possible fire," Gannon said.

The documents were first housed in the Catholic Center in Jacksonville, where
they remained until the construction of the new archive facility.

Now that they are safely stored, the next project is to digitize them, so they
can be readily and safely used by researchers.

Kathleen Williams, executive director of the National Historical Publications
and Records Commission of the National Archives in Washington, D.C., saw the
archives for the first time recently and spoke at the dedication of the new
building.

"Some of those holdings, they were incredible. It was a real joy to see the
material," Williams said. "It gave me chills."

Dr. Timothy Matovina, professor of theology and director of the Cushwa Center
for the Study of American Catholicism, University of Notre Dame, said the
collection is an important resource for the history of Catholics in America.

"As Hispanic Catholics grow in number across the country, the legacy of colonial
Catholicism becomes all the more important to research and remember," Matovina
said.

On the Net:

Diocese of St. Augustine: http://www.dosafl.com

This event (Anza's Crossing of the Santa Ana) is being sponsored by the County
of Riverside Parks & Rec. Dept.
The NPS is also welcome, of course, and we are hoping that there will be
coordination throughout the Soldado network as well.
 
  I will confirm the exact date as soon as we hear from everyone.
Thanks,
Steve Clugston

--- On Tue, 11/10/09, Frank Martinez IV <soldadomestizo@...> wrote:


From: Frank Martinez IV <soldadomestizo@...>
Subject: Re: [Soldados] Re: Anza Soldado Event April 2010
To: Soldados@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 1:28 PM


 



Hello Dr. Jackman,
    Yes, I think it would be a good idea.  The NPS has materials and a
temporary booth/awning that they set up.  I've worked with them on several Anza
related presentations up here in Alta-Alta California (SF area) and they have
four child size costumes up here at their Oakland office, and more in Tucson
(Rick, isn't that where they are?).  I think that Marcy, the new Interpretive
Specialist for the Anza Trail would be very interested in what was being done
down there (and thanks for the invitation, Steve.  Putting it on the
calendar.).
    iv

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Jarrell Jackman <docjj@sbthp. org>
To: Soldados@yahoogroup s.com
Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 11:57:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Soldados] Re: Anza Soldado Event April 2010

 
I wasn¹t, but do you think we should?

Jarrell C. Jackman, Ph.D.
Executive Director
Santa Barbara Trust for Historic Preservation
123 East Canon Perdido Street
Santa Barbara, CA 93101
(805) 966-1279 or (805) 965-0093
FAX (805) 966-9888
www.sbthp.org <http://sbthp. org/>

Preserving what we love takes an ongoing commitment. Membership Matters!
<http://sbthp. org/membership. htm>

From: Robert A Stevens <bobybaby@pacbell. net>
Reply-To: <Soldados@yahoogrou p s.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:13:06 -0800 (PST)
To: <soldados@yahoogrou p s.com>, Steve Clugston <steveclugston@ yahoo.com>
Cc: Steve Mata <zoidburg_nkvd@ yahoo.com>, Joe Lopez <mesillajoe@ yahoo. com>
Subject: [Soldados] Re: Anza Soldado Event April 2010

Steve,
Is this a De Anza Trail event with NPS support?
And will there be a mounted contingent from the trail riders association?
Bob 

--- On Mon, 11/9/09, Steve Clugston <steveclugston@ yahoo.com
<mailto:steveclugst on%40yahoo. com> > wrote:

From: Steve Clugston <steveclugston@ yahoo.com
<mailto:steveclugst on%40yahoo. com> >
Subject: Anza Soldado Event April 2010
To: soldados@yahoogroup s.com <mailto:soldados% 40yahoogroups. com>
Cc: "Robert Stevens" <bobybaby@pacbell. net <mailto:bobybaby% 40pacbell. net>
>, "Steve Mata" <zoidburg_nkvd@ yahoo.com <mailto:zoidburg_ nkvd%40yahoo. com>
>, "Joe Lopez" <mesillajoe@ yahoo. com <mailto:mesillajoe% 40yahoo.com> >
Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 7:50 PM

You are invited to participate in a Re-enactment of Anza, crossing the Santa
Ana River on Saturday, April 17, 2010, at a Park dedicated to the Crossing
near Riverside.  This will be through the cooperation with the County of
Riverside Parks, so we have the potential of a great event which may become
annual.(more info following).
 
If there are any conflicts with that date in your calendar, please notify me
and suggest another possible date.
 
-Steve 'Estaban' Clugston

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Dr. Jackman,
    Yes, I think it would be a good idea.  The NPS has materials and a
temporary booth/awning that they set up.  I've worked with them on several Anza
related presentations up here in Alta-Alta California (SF area) and they have
four child size costumes up here at their Oakland office, and more in Tucson
(Rick, isn't that where they are?).  I think that Marcy, the new Interpretive
Specialist for the Anza Trail would be very interested in what was being done
down there (and thanks for the invitation, Steve.  Putting it on the
calendar.).
    iv



________________________________
From: Jarrell Jackman <docjj@...>
To: Soldados@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 11:57:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Soldados] Re: Anza Soldado Event April 2010

 
I wasn¹t, but do you think we should?

Jarrell C. Jackman, Ph.D.
Executive Director
Santa Barbara Trust for Historic Preservation
123 East Canon Perdido Street
Santa Barbara, CA 93101
(805) 966-1279 or (805) 965-0093
FAX (805) 966-9888
www.sbthp.org <http://sbthp. org/>


Preserving what we love takes an ongoing commitment. Membership Matters!
<http://sbthp. org/membership. htm>

From: Robert A Stevens <bobybaby@pacbell. net>
Reply-To: <Soldados@yahoogroup s.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:13:06 -0800 (PST)
To: <soldados@yahoogroup s.com>, Steve Clugston <steveclugston@ yahoo.com>
Cc: Steve Mata <zoidburg_nkvd@ yahoo.com>, Joe Lopez <mesillajoe@yahoo. com>
Subject: [Soldados] Re: Anza Soldado Event April 2010

Steve,
Is this a De Anza Trail event with NPS support?
And will there be a mounted contingent from the trail riders association?
Bob 

--- On Mon, 11/9/09, Steve Clugston <steveclugston@ yahoo.com
<mailto:steveclugst on%40yahoo. com> > wrote:

From: Steve Clugston <steveclugston@ yahoo.com
<mailto:steveclugst on%40yahoo. com> >
Subject: Anza Soldado Event April 2010
To: soldados@yahoogroup s.com <mailto:soldados% 40yahoogroups. com>
Cc: "Robert Stevens" <bobybaby@pacbell. net <mailto:bobybaby% 40pacbell. net>
>, "Steve Mata" <zoidburg_nkvd@ yahoo.com <mailto:zoidburg_ nkvd%40yahoo. com>
>, "Joe Lopez" <mesillajoe@yahoo. com <mailto:mesillajoe% 40yahoo.com> >
Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 7:50 PM

You are invited to participate in a Re-enactment of Anza, crossing the Santa
Ana River on Saturday, April 17, 2010, at a Park dedicated to the Crossing
near Riverside.  This will be through the cooperation with the County of
Riverside Parks, so we have the potential of a great event which may become
annual.(more info following).
 
If there are any conflicts with that date in your calendar, please notify me
and suggest another possible date.
 
-Steve 'Estaban' Clugston

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I wasn¹t, but do you think we should?

Jarrell C. Jackman, Ph.D.
Executive Director
Santa Barbara Trust for Historic Preservation
123 East Canon Perdido Street
Santa Barbara, CA 93101
(805) 966-1279 or (805) 965-0093
FAX (805) 966-9888
www.sbthp.org <http://sbthp.org/>


Preserving what we love takes an ongoing commitment. Membership Matters!
<http://sbthp.org/membership.htm>




















From: Robert A Stevens <bobybaby@...>
Reply-To: <Soldados@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:13:06 -0800 (PST)
To: <soldados@yahoogroups.com>, Steve Clugston <steveclugston@...>
Cc: Steve Mata <zoidburg_nkvd@...>, Joe Lopez <mesillajoe@...>
Subject: [Soldados] Re: Anza Soldado Event April 2010






Steve,
Is this a De Anza Trail event with NPS support?
And will there be a mounted contingent from the trail riders association?
Bob 

--- On Mon, 11/9/09, Steve Clugston <steveclugston@...
<mailto:steveclugston%40yahoo.com> > wrote:

From: Steve Clugston <steveclugston@...
<mailto:steveclugston%40yahoo.com> >
Subject: Anza Soldado Event April 2010
To: soldados@yahoogroups.com <mailto:soldados%40yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "Robert Stevens" <bobybaby@... <mailto:bobybaby%40pacbell.net>
>, "Steve Mata" <zoidburg_nkvd@... <mailto:zoidburg_nkvd%40yahoo.com>
>, "Joe Lopez" <mesillajoe@... <mailto:mesillajoe%40yahoo.com> >
Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 7:50 PM

You are invited to participate in a Re-enactment of Anza, crossing the Santa
Ana River on Saturday, April 17, 2010, at a Park dedicated to the Crossing
near Riverside.  This will be through the cooperation with the County of
Riverside Parks, so we have the potential of a great event which may become
annual.(more info following).
 
If there are any conflicts with that date in your calendar, please notify me
and suggest another possible date.
 
-Steve 'Estaban' Clugston

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve,
Is this a De Anza Trail event with NPS support?
And will there be a mounted contingent from the trail riders association?
Bob 

--- On Mon, 11/9/09, Steve Clugston <steveclugston@...> wrote:


From: Steve Clugston <steveclugston@...>
Subject: Anza Soldado Event April 2010
To: soldados@yahoogroups.com
Cc: "Robert Stevens" <bobybaby@...>, "Steve Mata"
<zoidburg_nkvd@...>, "Joe Lopez" <mesillajoe@...>
Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 7:50 PM







You are invited to participate in a Re-enactment of Anza, crossing the Santa Ana
River on Saturday, April 17, 2010, at a Park dedicated to the Crossing near
Riverside.  This will be through the cooperation with the County of Riverside
Parks, so we have the potential of a great event which may become annual.(more
info following).
 
If there are any conflicts with that date in your calendar, please notify me and
suggest another possible date.
 
-Steve 'Estaban' Clugston


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You are invited to participate in a Re-enactment of Anza, crossing the Santa Ana
River on Saturday, April 17, 2010, at a Park dedicated to the Crossing near
Riverside.  This will be through the cooperation with the County of Riverside
Parks, so we have the potential of a great event which may become annual.(more
info following).
 
If there are any conflicts with that date in your calendar, please notify me and
suggest another possible date.
 
-Steve 'Estaban' Clugston




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for all your help!  I'll pass the info along.

-Tony

On Nov 8, 2009, at 7:49 PM, daviswwalker wrote:

> Also working on the "Flags of Ponce de Leon" project with Tim down
> here in Florida, let me suggest, Anthony, the following resources:
>
> "Banderas de Espana"
> by Jose Luis Calvo Perez and Luis Gravalos Gonzalez
> Silex; 1983; ISBN: 848504178X
>
> "Las Banderas Historicas del Ejercito Espanol"
> by Antonio Manzano Lahoz
> Ministerio de Defensa, Secretaria General Tecnica; 1996 (2nd ed);
> ISBN: 8478235035
>
> Suggested by our Cabo de Arquebuz, John Powell, both of these books
> contain useful information on 16th-century Spanish flags.
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> ~Davis
>
> --- In Soldados@yahoogroups.com, Timothy Burke <burke.calderon@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> anthony campisi wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> This is from a fellow reenactor, in the 1598 group that I belong to.
>>> He would like to make a correct flag for our time period, and he
>>> asked
>>> me to pass along the information that he has to the group, to see if
>>> there is any other input available.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance for any help.
>>> -Tony
>>>
>>
>> I'd also suggest :
>>
>>
>>
>> */Tailor's Pattern Book 1589/*
>> by Juan De Alcega, Jean Pain (Translator), Cecilia Bainton
>> (Translator), j Nevinson, Juan de Alcega
>> Publisher: Quite Specific Media Group Ltd; ISBN: 0896762343;
>> Facsimile
>> edition (April 12, 1999)
>> pp.54-55  which as the construction pattern, in English translation
>> (with the original Spanish in facsimile) for a "War Banner of
>> taffeta"
>> Length & width of '4& 2/3 ells X 4 &1/4 ells;  Per the translator's
>> conversion table one Castilian ell (/bara/) = 84 cm or 2.75'
>>
>> It's about a century too early for Onate (I happen to be researching
>> flags for Ponce de Leon of late) but you might find the Standard of
>> Carmona of interest ( This is the biggest photo that I can find of
>> it.):
>>
>>
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_iLqlidEKU3c/SiLn_4d4elI/AAAAAAAAAI4/-Uk7xatip-E/s1600/\
ESTANDARTE%2BCARMONA_ESTADO%2BINICIAL.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>> El Instituto Andaluz del Patrimonio Histórico ha comenzado, tras las
>> investigaciones previas, el proceso de restauración del "Estandarte
>> de
>> la Ciudad de Carmona", pieza de la que se tienen datos históricos
>> desde
>> el siglo XV.
>>
>>
>> "Standard of the City of Carmona," part of which has been dated to be
>> from the 15th century.  (If I didn't screw up the  translation) [ I'm
>> assuming a carbon 14 dating on a swatch of fabric]
>> http://reynosdelandaluzia.blogspot.com/2009_05_01_archive.html
>>
>>
>> http://karcomen.blogspot.com/2009/05/el-estandarte-historico-de-carmona.html
>>
>> El Estandarte de la Ciudad de Carmona viene datándose
>> tradicionalmente
>> desde el siglo XV. En el denominado "Tumbo de los Reyes Católicos"
>> (Archivo Municipal de Carmona) un asiento de fecha 13 de agosto de
>> 1479
>> recoge la existencia del pendón informando además de que el mismo
>> tenía
>> que ir a la derecha del pendón de la ciudad de Sevilla en las guerras
>> contra los musulmanes o en sus salidas de la villa.
>>
>>
>> Restauración del Estandarte histórico de Carmona (restoration of the
>> historic Standard of Carmona)
>> PDF
>>
http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/cultura/iaph/html/portal/com/bin/portal/Contenido\
s/Noticias/estandarte_carmona_mayo09/1243348990638_090524_estandarte_carmona_mas\
_info.pdf
>>
>>
>> I can't find any dimensions, but the description is instructive:
>> A pretty literal translation:
>> The banner consists of a double-sided badge as shown in the type of
>> stitching used. The piece is made with cuts of different types of
>> fabrics and colors, that shape the main decoration: a star [or bright
>> star] in the center surrounded by dials on the edge collecting
>> castles
>> and lions. The shape of this piece is rectangular, finished at its
>> right
>> end in a rounded shape. On the left side has a sheath or purse, for
>> inserting the mast. The sheath is made with blue and white fabrics;
>> likewise it has many fixes, and interventions. The wooden shaft
>> within
>> the sheath is lined by various tissues and topped with metallic
>> trim on
>> its tip.
>>
>>
>> Also:
>>
>> A surviving Flag & pole, albeit early 18th C. near as I can tell.
>> Clearly a sleeved flag, and it looks to be held in place with holes
>> drilled in to the pole and strung into place.  We may end up dealing
>> with negative information, here.  Looking at period illustrations I
>> don't see ties/grommets lending to the supposition that sleeves
>> were how
>> they were constucted.
>>
>>
http://books.google.com/books?id=UoZlW0ECUp0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=banderas+hi\
storicas&client=firefox-a&vq=%22Las+banderas+hist%C3%B3ricas+del+Ej%C3%A9rcito+E\
spa%C3%B1ol%22&source=gbs_citations_module_r&cad=3#v
>> =onepage&q=%22Las%20banderas%20hist%C3%B3ricas%20del%20Ej%C3%A9rcito
>> %20Espa%C3%B1ol%22&f=false
>>
>>
>> Saludos,
>>
>> Tarterabuelo Tim
>> -<):{)}
>>
>>
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>
>>>> From: Mike Bilbo <mbbilbo@... <mailto:mbbilbo%40yahoo.com>>
>>>> Date: November 8, 2009 10:32:08 AM MST
>>>> To: campamc@... <mailto:campamc%40comcast.net>
>>>> Cc: basqueflavor@... <mailto:basqueflavor%40hotmail.com>,
>>> diehard_cowboy@... <mailto:diehard_cowboy%40hotmail.com>,
>>> nuevomejicano@... <mailto:nuevomejicano%40yahoo.com>
>>>> , taosrecycler@... <mailto:taosrecycler%40yahoo.com>,
>>> garc4040@... <mailto:garc4040%40hotmail.com>,
>>> dwight@... <mailto:dwight%40valornet.com>,
>>> adimick@... <mailto:adimick%40cableone.net>
>>>> , fnmfm@... <mailto:fnmfm%40aol.com>
>>>> Subject: Onate Flag(s)
>>>>
>>>> Tony, I've seen your name on the Soldados yahoo group website -
>>>> could you send this version on the flag(s) project to the Soldados
>>>> yahoo group? Following any assistance from them, I'll start in on
>>>> the project.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From Mike Bilbo (please send comments, sources (U.S. or abroad),
>>>> illustrations and photos to Mike Bilbo at mbbilbo@...
>>> <mailto:mbbilbo%40yahoo.com>.
>>>>
>>>> I'm working on a project for our living history group, La Sociedad
>>>> de la Entrada - http://www.entrada1598.com
>>> <http://www.entrada1598.com> - to reproduce the three
>>>> and maybe four or five flags carried by Onate during his colonial
>>>> expedition. For years we have incorrectly been using a 3' x 5'
>>>> cotton Castile-Leon flag - scroll down to the photos -
>>> http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/lg060208.pdf
>>> <http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/lg060208.pdf>
>>>> - and realize we have to get it right.
>>>>
>>>> I'd like opinions from Soldados members, on what I've come up with.
>>>> I suspect the originals were silk. I am not yet sure of dimensions
>>>> or shapes - sources show Spanish Army using a D-shaped flag during
>>>> combat, but square and rectangular shapes are also evident, and
>>>> they
>>>> all appear to be on the order of 6' x 6' or so. Flags at the
>>>> company level, which we portray as soldados de Onate, are on short
>>>> poles, while apparently the Royal Standard and maybe Onate's
>>>> personal flag (ie, flags of a higher order) are on longer poles
>>>> like
>>>> those in contemporary use.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/waag16.pdf
>>> <http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/waag16.pdf> - page 4, Figure 4
>>>>
>>>> http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/rencloth.pdf
>>> <http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/rencloth.pdf> - page 16
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/conocenos_hist\
oria/03_bandera_armada--04_casa_austria--04_felipe_ii_es
>>>
<http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/conocenos_his\
toria/03_bandera_armada--04_casa_austria--04_felipe_ii_es
>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From various sources I think the correct flags are these:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Oñate was said to have carried a flag with the escudo of Felipe
>>>> II on one side and a representation of the Virgin Mary on the
>>>> other.
>>>> It was also reported that de Vargas brought the same banner back to
>>>> Santa Fé during the
>>>> reconquest, almost a hundred years later (ca. 1693).
>>>>
>>>> First illustration shows the escudo on a 1598 flag of Felipe II -
>>>>
>>>
http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/conocenos_hist\
oria/03_bandera_armada--04_casa_austria--04_felipe_ii_es
>>>
<http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/conocenos_his\
toria/03_bandera_armada--04_casa_austria--04_felipe_ii_es
>>> >
>>>>
>>>> Third illustration shows closeup of the escudo -
>>>>
>>>> http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felipe_II_de_Espa%C3%B1a
>>> <http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felipe_II_de_Espa%C3%B1a>
>>>>
>>>> 2. Banner/Flag - Royal Standard of Phillip II
>>>>
>>>> http://flagspot.net/images/e/es_rf234.gif
>>> <http://flagspot.net/images/e/es_rf234.gif>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
http://jonkepa.wordpress.com/2009/10/30/la-bandera-de-espana-su-historia-y-orige\
nes-ii/
>>>
<http://jonkepa.wordpress.com/2009/10/30/la-bandera-de-espana-su-historia-y-orig\
enes-ii/
>>> >
>>>>
>>>> 3. Battle Flag/Flag of the Military - Cross of Burgundy
>>>>
>>>> http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/waag16.pdf
>>> <http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/waag16.pdf> - page 7
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/conocenos_hist\
oria/03_bandera_armada--04_casa_austria--04_felipe_ii_es
>>>
<http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/conocenos_his\
toria/03_bandera_armada--04_casa_austria--04_felipe_ii_es
>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
http://jonkepa.wordpress.com/2009/10/30/la-bandera-de-espana-su-historia-y-orige\
nes-ii/
>>>
<http://jonkepa.wordpress.com/2009/10/30/la-bandera-de-espana-su-historia-y-orig\
enes-ii/
>>> >
>>>>
>>>> 4. Flag - Onate's Personal (Onate's coat of arms and San Iago on
>>>> white Castilian silk)
>>>>
>>>> http://www.nmhcpl.org/uploads/Santiago_Our_Protector.pdf
>>> <http://www.nmhcpl.org/uploads/Santiago_Our_Protector.pdf>
>>>>
>>>> 5. Banner - Red damask with image of Saint James and the Virgin
>>>> Mary
>>>>
>>>> http://www.nmhcpl.org/uploads/Santiago_Our_Protector.pdf
>>> <http://www.nmhcpl.org/uploads/Santiago_Our_Protector.pdf>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to: Soldados-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Please check http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Soldados/links for links
> of interest,
> and our files section at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Soldados/
> files for reference material, photos and equipment!Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Also working on the "Flags of Ponce de Leon" project with Tim down here in
Florida, let me suggest, Anthony, the following resources:

"Banderas de Espana"
by Jose Luis Calvo Perez and Luis Gravalos Gonzalez
Silex; 1983; ISBN: 848504178X

"Las Banderas Historicas del Ejercito Espanol"
by Antonio Manzano Lahoz
Ministerio de Defensa, Secretaria General Tecnica; 1996 (2nd ed); ISBN:
8478235035

Suggested by our Cabo de Arquebuz, John Powell, both of these books contain
useful information on 16th-century Spanish flags.

Hope this helps!

~Davis

--- In Soldados@yahoogroups.com, Timothy Burke <burke.calderon@...> wrote:
>
> anthony campisi wrote:
> >
> >
> > This is from a fellow reenactor, in the 1598 group that I belong to.
> > He would like to make a correct flag for our time period, and he asked
> > me to pass along the information that he has to the group, to see if
> > there is any other input available.
> >
> > Thanks in advance for any help.
> > -Tony
> >
>
> I'd also suggest :
>
>
>
> */Tailor's Pattern Book 1589/*
>  by Juan De Alcega, Jean Pain (Translator), Cecilia Bainton
> (Translator), j Nevinson, Juan de Alcega
>  Publisher: Quite Specific Media Group Ltd; ISBN: 0896762343; Facsimile
> edition (April 12, 1999)
> pp.54-55  which as the construction pattern, in English translation
> (with the original Spanish in facsimile) for a "War Banner of taffeta"
> Length & width of '4& 2/3 ells X 4 &1/4 ells;  Per the translator's
> conversion table one Castilian ell (/bara/) = 84 cm or 2.75'
>
> It's about a century too early for Onate (I happen to be researching
> flags for Ponce de Leon of late) but you might find the Standard of
> Carmona of interest ( This is the biggest photo that I can find of it.):
>
>
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_iLqlidEKU3c/SiLn_4d4elI/AAAAAAAAAI4/-Uk7xatip-E/s1600/\
ESTANDARTE%2BCARMONA_ESTADO%2BINICIAL.jpg
>
>
>
> El Instituto Andaluz del Patrimonio Histórico ha comenzado, tras las
> investigaciones previas, el proceso de restauración del "Estandarte de
> la Ciudad de Carmona", pieza de la que se tienen datos históricos desde
> el siglo XV.
>
>
> "Standard of the City of Carmona," part of which has been dated to be
> from the 15th century.  (If I didn't screw up the  translation) [ I'm
> assuming a carbon 14 dating on a swatch of fabric]
> http://reynosdelandaluzia.blogspot.com/2009_05_01_archive.html
>
>
> http://karcomen.blogspot.com/2009/05/el-estandarte-historico-de-carmona.html
>
> El Estandarte de la Ciudad de Carmona viene datándose tradicionalmente
> desde el siglo XV. En el denominado "Tumbo de los Reyes Católicos"
> (Archivo Municipal de Carmona) un asiento de fecha 13 de agosto de 1479
> recoge la existencia del pendón informando además de que el mismo tenía
> que ir a la derecha del pendón de la ciudad de Sevilla en las guerras
> contra los musulmanes o en sus salidas de la villa.
>
>
> Restauración del Estandarte histórico de Carmona (restoration of the
> historic Standard of Carmona)
> PDF
>
http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/cultura/iaph/html/portal/com/bin/portal/Contenido\
s/Noticias/estandarte_carmona_mayo09/1243348990638_090524_estandarte_carmona_mas\
_info.pdf
>
>
> I can't find any dimensions, but the description is instructive:
> A pretty literal translation:
> The banner consists of a double-sided badge as shown in the type of
> stitching used. The piece is made with cuts of different types of
> fabrics and colors, that shape the main decoration: a star [or bright
> star] in the center surrounded by dials on the edge collecting castles
> and lions. The shape of this piece is rectangular, finished at its right
> end in a rounded shape. On the left side has a sheath or purse, for
> inserting the mast. The sheath is made with blue and white fabrics;
> likewise it has many fixes, and interventions. The wooden shaft within
> the sheath is lined by various tissues and topped with metallic trim on
> its tip.
>
>
> Also:
>
> A surviving Flag & pole, albeit early 18th C. near as I can tell.
> Clearly a sleeved flag, and it looks to be held in place with holes
> drilled in to the pole and strung into place.  We may end up dealing
> with negative information, here.  Looking at period illustrations I
> don't see ties/grommets lending to the supposition that sleeves were how
> they were constucted.
>
>
http://books.google.com/books?id=UoZlW0ECUp0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=banderas+hi\
storicas&client=firefox-a&vq=%22Las+banderas+hist%C3%B3ricas+del+Ej%C3%A9rcito+E\
spa%C3%B1ol%22&source=gbs_citations_module_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q=%22Las%20banderas\
%20hist%C3%B3ricas%20del%20Ej%C3%A9rcito%20Espa%C3%B1ol%22&f=false
>
>
> Saludos,
>
> Tarterabuelo Tim
> -<):{)}
>
>
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > > From: Mike Bilbo <mbbilbo@... <mailto:mbbilbo%40yahoo.com>>
> > > Date: November 8, 2009 10:32:08 AM MST
> > > To: campamc@... <mailto:campamc%40comcast.net>
> > > Cc: basqueflavor@... <mailto:basqueflavor%40hotmail.com>,
> > diehard_cowboy@... <mailto:diehard_cowboy%40hotmail.com>,
> > nuevomejicano@... <mailto:nuevomejicano%40yahoo.com>
> > > , taosrecycler@... <mailto:taosrecycler%40yahoo.com>,
> > garc4040@... <mailto:garc4040%40hotmail.com>,
> > dwight@... <mailto:dwight%40valornet.com>,
> > adimick@... <mailto:adimick%40cableone.net>
> > > , fnmfm@... <mailto:fnmfm%40aol.com>
> > > Subject: Onate Flag(s)
> > >
> > > Tony, I've seen your name on the Soldados yahoo group website -
> > > could you send this version on the flag(s) project to the Soldados
> > > yahoo group? Following any assistance from them, I'll start in on
> > > the project.
> > >
> > >
> > > From Mike Bilbo (please send comments, sources (U.S. or abroad),
> > > illustrations and photos to Mike Bilbo at mbbilbo@...
> > <mailto:mbbilbo%40yahoo.com>.
> > >
> > > I'm working on a project for our living history group, La Sociedad
> > > de la Entrada - http://www.entrada1598.com
> > <http://www.entrada1598.com> - to reproduce the three
> > > and maybe four or five flags carried by Onate during his colonial
> > > expedition. For years we have incorrectly been using a 3' x 5'
> > > cotton Castile-Leon flag - scroll down to the photos -
> > http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/lg060208.pdf
> > <http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/lg060208.pdf>
> > > - and realize we have to get it right.
> > >
> > > I'd like opinions from Soldados members, on what I've come up with.
> > > I suspect the originals were silk. I am not yet sure of dimensions
> > > or shapes - sources show Spanish Army using a D-shaped flag during
> > > combat, but square and rectangular shapes are also evident, and they
> > > all appear to be on the order of 6' x 6' or so. Flags at the
> > > company level, which we portray as soldados de Onate, are on short
> > > poles, while apparently the Royal Standard and maybe Onate's
> > > personal flag (ie, flags of a higher order) are on longer poles like
> > > those in contemporary use.
> > >
> > > http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/waag16.pdf
> > <http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/waag16.pdf> - page 4, Figure 4
> > >
> > > http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/rencloth.pdf
> > <http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/rencloth.pdf> - page 16
> > >
> > >
> >
http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/conocenos_hist\
oria/03_bandera_armada--04_casa_austria--04_felipe_ii_es
> >
<http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/conocenos_his\
toria/03_bandera_armada--04_casa_austria--04_felipe_ii_es>
> > >
> > >
> > > From various sources I think the correct flags are these:
> > >
> > > 1. Oñate was said to have carried a flag with the escudo of Felipe
> > > II on one side and a representation of the Virgin Mary on the other.
> > > It was also reported that de Vargas brought the same banner back to
> > > Santa Fé during the
> > > reconquest, almost a hundred years later (ca. 1693).
> > >
> > > First illustration shows the escudo on a 1598 flag of Felipe II -
> > >
> >
http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/conocenos_hist\
oria/03_bandera_armada--04_casa_austria--04_felipe_ii_es
> >
<http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/conocenos_his\
toria/03_bandera_armada--04_casa_austria--04_felipe_ii_es>
> > >
> > > Third illustration shows closeup of the escudo -
> > >
> > > http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felipe_II_de_Espa%C3%B1a
> > <http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felipe_II_de_Espa%C3%B1a>
> > >
> > > 2. Banner/Flag - Royal Standard of Phillip II
> > >
> > > http://flagspot.net/images/e/es_rf234.gif
> > <http://flagspot.net/images/e/es_rf234.gif>
> > >
> > >
> >
http://jonkepa.wordpress.com/2009/10/30/la-bandera-de-espana-su-historia-y-orige\
nes-ii/
> >
<http://jonkepa.wordpress.com/2009/10/30/la-bandera-de-espana-su-historia-y-orig\
enes-ii/>
> > >
> > > 3. Battle Flag/Flag of the Military - Cross of Burgundy
> > >
> > > http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/waag16.pdf
> > <http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/waag16.pdf> - page 7
> > >
> > >
> >
http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/conocenos_hist\
oria/03_bandera_armada--04_casa_austria--04_felipe_ii_es
> >
<http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/conocenos_his\
toria/03_bandera_armada--04_casa_austria--04_felipe_ii_es>
> > >
> > >
> >
http://jonkepa.wordpress.com/2009/10/30/la-bandera-de-espana-su-historia-y-orige\
nes-ii/
> >
<http://jonkepa.wordpress.com/2009/10/30/la-bandera-de-espana-su-historia-y-orig\
enes-ii/>
> > >
> > > 4. Flag - Onate's Personal (Onate's coat of arms and San Iago on
> > > white Castilian silk)
> > >
> > > http://www.nmhcpl.org/uploads/Santiago_Our_Protector.pdf
> > <http://www.nmhcpl.org/uploads/Santiago_Our_Protector.pdf>
> > >
> > > 5. Banner - Red damask with image of Saint James and the Virgin Mary
> > >
> > > http://www.nmhcpl.org/uploads/Santiago_Our_Protector.pdf
> > <http://www.nmhcpl.org/uploads/Santiago_Our_Protector.pdf>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

anthony campisi wrote:
>
>
> This is from a fellow reenactor, in the 1598 group that I belong to.
> He would like to make a correct flag for our time period, and he asked
> me to pass along the information that he has to the group, to see if
> there is any other input available.
>
> Thanks in advance for any help.
> -Tony
>

I'd also suggest :



*/Tailor's Pattern Book 1589/*
  by Juan De Alcega, Jean Pain (Translator), Cecilia Bainton
(Translator), j Nevinson, Juan de Alcega
  Publisher: Quite Specific Media Group Ltd; ISBN: 0896762343; Facsimile
edition (April 12, 1999)
pp.54-55  which as the construction pattern, in English translation
(with the original Spanish in facsimile) for a "War Banner of taffeta"
Length & width of '4& 2/3 ells X 4 &1/4 ells;  Per the translator's
conversion table one Castilian ell (/bara/) = 84 cm or 2.75'

It's about a century too early for Onate (I happen to be researching
flags for Ponce de Leon of late) but you might find the Standard of
Carmona of interest ( This is the biggest photo that I can find of it.):

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_iLqlidEKU3c/SiLn_4d4elI/AAAAAAAAAI4/-Uk7xatip-E/s1600/\
ESTANDARTE%2BCARMONA_ESTADO%2BINICIAL.jpg



El Instituto Andaluz del Patrimonio Histórico ha comenzado, tras las
investigaciones previas, el proceso de restauración del "Estandarte de
la Ciudad de Carmona", pieza de la que se tienen datos históricos desde
el siglo XV.


"Standard of the City of Carmona," part of which has been dated to be
from the 15th century.  (If I didn't screw up the  translation) [ I'm
assuming a carbon 14 dating on a swatch of fabric]
http://reynosdelandaluzia.blogspot.com/2009_05_01_archive.html


http://karcomen.blogspot.com/2009/05/el-estandarte-historico-de-carmona.html

El Estandarte de la Ciudad de Carmona viene datándose tradicionalmente
desde el siglo XV. En el denominado "Tumbo de los Reyes Católicos"
(Archivo Municipal de Carmona) un asiento de fecha 13 de agosto de 1479
recoge la existencia del pendón informando además de que el mismo tenía
que ir a la derecha del pendón de la ciudad de Sevilla en las guerras
contra los musulmanes o en sus salidas de la villa.


Restauración del Estandarte histórico de Carmona (restoration of the
historic Standard of Carmona)
PDF
http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/cultura/iaph/html/portal/com/bin/portal/Contenido\
s/Noticias/estandarte_carmona_mayo09/1243348990638_090524_estandarte_carmona_mas\
_info.pdf


I can't find any dimensions, but the description is instructive:
A pretty literal translation:
The banner consists of a double-sided badge as shown in the type of
stitching used. The piece is made with cuts of different types of
fabrics and colors, that shape the main decoration: a star [or bright
star] in the center surrounded by dials on the edge collecting castles
and lions. The shape of this piece is rectangular, finished at its right
end in a rounded shape. On the left side has a sheath or purse, for
inserting the mast. The sheath is made with blue and white fabrics;
likewise it has many fixes, and interventions. The wooden shaft within
the sheath is lined by various tissues and topped with metallic trim on
its tip.


Also:

A surviving Flag & pole, albeit early 18th C. near as I can tell.
Clearly a sleeved flag, and it looks to be held in place with holes
drilled in to the pole and strung into place.  We may end up dealing
with negative information, here.  Looking at period illustrations I
don't see ties/grommets lending to the supposition that sleeves were how
they were constucted.

http://books.google.com/books?id=UoZlW0ECUp0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=banderas+hi\
storicas&client=firefox-a&vq=%22Las+banderas+hist%C3%B3ricas+del+Ej%C3%A9rcito+E\
spa%C3%B1ol%22&source=gbs_citations_module_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q=%22Las%20banderas\
%20hist%C3%B3ricas%20del%20Ej%C3%A9rcito%20Espa%C3%B1ol%22&f=false


Saludos,

Tarterabuelo Tim
-<):{)}


> Begin forwarded message:
>
> > From: Mike Bilbo <mbbilbo@... <mailto:mbbilbo%40yahoo.com>>
> > Date: November 8, 2009 10:32:08 AM MST
> > To: campamc@... <mailto:campamc%40comcast.net>
> > Cc: basqueflavor@... <mailto:basqueflavor%40hotmail.com>,
> diehard_cowboy@... <mailto:diehard_cowboy%40hotmail.com>,
> nuevomejicano@... <mailto:nuevomejicano%40yahoo.com>
> > , taosrecycler@... <mailto:taosrecycler%40yahoo.com>,
> garc4040@... <mailto:garc4040%40hotmail.com>,
> dwight@... <mailto:dwight%40valornet.com>,
> adimick@... <mailto:adimick%40cableone.net>
> > , fnmfm@... <mailto:fnmfm%40aol.com>
> > Subject: Onate Flag(s)
> >
> > Tony, I've seen your name on the Soldados yahoo group website -
> > could you send this version on the flag(s) project to the Soldados
> > yahoo group? Following any assistance from them, I'll start in on
> > the project.
> >
> >
> > From Mike Bilbo (please send comments, sources (U.S. or abroad),
> > illustrations and photos to Mike Bilbo at mbbilbo@...
> <mailto:mbbilbo%40yahoo.com>.
> >
> > I'm working on a project for our living history group, La Sociedad
> > de la Entrada - http://www.entrada1598.com
> <http://www.entrada1598.com> - to reproduce the three
> > and maybe four or five flags carried by Onate during his colonial
> > expedition. For years we have incorrectly been using a 3' x 5'
> > cotton Castile-Leon flag - scroll down to the photos -
> http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/lg060208.pdf
> <http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/lg060208.pdf>
> > - and realize we have to get it right.
> >
> > I'd like opinions from Soldados members, on what I've come up with.
> > I suspect the originals were silk. I am not yet sure of dimensions
> > or shapes - sources show Spanish Army using a D-shaped flag during
> > combat, but square and rectangular shapes are also evident, and they
> > all appear to be on the order of 6' x 6' or so. Flags at the
> > company level, which we portray as soldados de Onate, are on short
> > poles, while apparently the Royal Standard and maybe Onate's
> > personal flag (ie, flags of a higher order) are on longer poles like
> > those in contemporary use.
> >
> > http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/waag16.pdf
> <http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/waag16.pdf> - page 4, Figure 4
> >
> > http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/rencloth.pdf
> <http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/rencloth.pdf> - page 16
> >
> >
>
http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/conocenos_hist\
oria/03_bandera_armada--04_casa_austria--04_felipe_ii_es
>
<http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/conocenos_his\
toria/03_bandera_armada--04_casa_austria--04_felipe_ii_es>
> >
> >
> > From various sources I think the correct flags are these:
> >
> > 1. Oñate was said to have carried a flag with the escudo of Felipe
> > II on one side and a representation of the Virgin Mary on the other.
> > It was also reported that de Vargas brought the same banner back to
> > Santa Fé during the
> > reconquest, almost a hundred years later (ca. 1693).
> >
> > First illustration shows the escudo on a 1598 flag of Felipe II -
> >
>
http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/conocenos_hist\
oria/03_bandera_armada--04_casa_austria--04_felipe_ii_es
>
<http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/conocenos_his\
toria/03_bandera_armada--04_casa_austria--04_felipe_ii_es>
> >
> > Third illustration shows closeup of the escudo -
> >
> > http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felipe_II_de_Espa%C3%B1a
> <http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felipe_II_de_Espa%C3%B1a>
> >
> > 2. Banner/Flag - Royal Standard of Phillip II
> >
> > http://flagspot.net/images/e/es_rf234.gif
> <http://flagspot.net/images/e/es_rf234.gif>
> >
> >
>
http://jonkepa.wordpress.com/2009/10/30/la-bandera-de-espana-su-historia-y-orige\
nes-ii/
>
<http://jonkepa.wordpress.com/2009/10/30/la-bandera-de-espana-su-historia-y-orig\
enes-ii/>
> >
> > 3. Battle Flag/Flag of the Military - Cross of Burgundy
> >
> > http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/waag16.pdf
> <http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/waag16.pdf> - page 7
> >
> >
>
http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/conocenos_hist\
oria/03_bandera_armada--04_casa_austria--04_felipe_ii_es
>
<http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/conocenos_his\
toria/03_bandera_armada--04_casa_austria--04_felipe_ii_es>
> >
> >
>
http://jonkepa.wordpress.com/2009/10/30/la-bandera-de-espana-su-historia-y-orige\
nes-ii/
>
<http://jonkepa.wordpress.com/2009/10/30/la-bandera-de-espana-su-historia-y-orig\
enes-ii/>
> >
> > 4. Flag - Onate's Personal (Onate's coat of arms and San Iago on
> > white Castilian silk)
> >
> > http://www.nmhcpl.org/uploads/Santiago_Our_Protector.pdf
> <http://www.nmhcpl.org/uploads/Santiago_Our_Protector.pdf>
> >
> > 5. Banner - Red damask with image of Saint James and the Virgin Mary
> >
> > http://www.nmhcpl.org/uploads/Santiago_Our_Protector.pdf
> <http://www.nmhcpl.org/uploads/Santiago_Our_Protector.pdf>
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This is from a fellow reenactor, in the 1598 group that I belong to.
He would like to make a correct flag for our time period, and he asked
me to pass along the information that he has to the group, to see if
there is any other input available.

Thanks in advance for any help.
-Tony

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Mike Bilbo <mbbilbo@...>
> Date: November 8, 2009 10:32:08 AM MST
> To: campamc@...
> Cc: basqueflavor@..., diehard_cowboy@...,
nuevomejicano@...
> , taosrecycler@..., garc4040@..., dwight@...,
adimick@...
> , fnmfm@...
> Subject: Onate Flag(s)
>
> Tony, I've seen your name on the Soldados yahoo group website -
> could you send this version on the flag(s) project to the Soldados
> yahoo group?  Following any assistance from them, I'll start in on
> the project.
>
>
> From Mike Bilbo (please send comments, sources (U.S. or abroad),
> illustrations and photos to Mike Bilbo at mbbilbo@....
>
> I'm working on a project for our living history group, La Sociedad
> de la Entrada -  http://www.entrada1598.com - to reproduce the three
> and maybe four or five flags carried by Onate during his colonial
> expedition.  For years we have incorrectly been using a 3' x 5'
> cotton Castile-Leon flag - scroll down to the photos -
http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/lg060208.pdf
>  - and realize we have to get it right.
>
> I'd like opinions from Soldados members, on what I've come up with.
> I suspect the originals were silk.  I am not yet sure of dimensions
> or shapes - sources show Spanish Army using a D-shaped flag during
> combat, but square and rectangular shapes are also evident, and they
> all appear to be on the order of 6' x 6' or so.  Flags at the
> company level, which we portray as soldados de Onate, are on short
> poles, while apparently the Royal Standard and maybe Onate's
> personal flag (ie, flags of a higher order) are on longer poles like
> those in contemporary use.
>
> http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/waag16.pdf - page 4, Figure 4
>
> http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/rencloth.pdf - page 16
>
>
http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/conocenos_hist\
oria/03_bandera_armada--04_casa_austria--04_felipe_ii_es
>
>
> From various sources I think the correct flags are these:
>
> 1.  Oñate was said to have carried a flag with the escudo of Felipe
> II on one side and a representation of the Virgin Mary on the other.
> It was also reported that de Vargas brought the same banner back to
> Santa Fé during the
> reconquest, almost a hundred years later (ca. 1693).
>
> First illustration shows the escudo on a 1598 flag of Felipe II -
> 
http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/conocenos_hist\
oria/03_bandera_armada--04_casa_austria--04_felipe_ii_es
>
> Third illustration shows closeup of the escudo -
>
> http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felipe_II_de_Espa%C3%B1a
>
> 2.  Banner/Flag - Royal Standard of Phillip II
>
> http://flagspot.net/images/e/es_rf234.gif
>
>
http://jonkepa.wordpress.com/2009/10/30/la-bandera-de-espana-su-historia-y-orige\
nes-ii/
>
> 3.  Battle Flag/Flag of the Military - Cross of Burgundy
>
> http://www.entrada1598.com/mdia/waag16.pdf - page 7
>
>
http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/conocenos_hist\
oria/03_bandera_armada--04_casa_austria--04_felipe_ii_es
>
>
http://jonkepa.wordpress.com/2009/10/30/la-bandera-de-espana-su-historia-y-orige\
nes-ii/
>
> 4.  Flag - Onate's Personal (Onate's coat of arms and San Iago on
> white Castilian silk)
>
> http://www.nmhcpl.org/uploads/Santiago_Our_Protector.pdf
>
> 5.  Banner - Red damask with image of Saint James and the Virgin Mary
>
> http://www.nmhcpl.org/uploads/Santiago_Our_Protector.pdf
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Amigos

Took a look at the 1757 Spanish musket by Pedersolli. It is evidently a high
quality weapon. However, its hammer is incorrect, as it is that of a late 18th
century French weapon, and the ring that turns the screw tightening the hammer's
jaws is too small.

Saludos!

Hector
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: "Eliud" <ebonilla@...>
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 12:41:16
To: <Soldados@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Soldados] Re: New Spanish Musket by Pedersoli

Hi,

I would call it a 1757 Spanish replica since it uses brass hardware and the
ramrod is metal. The 1752 was the same basic design but did not use brass and
has a wooden ramrod. Looks very nice.

Eliud

--- In Soldados@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Graf" <phil_graf@...> wrote:
>
> I'd call it a 1752 model as well, though I'm not really up on all the
> Spanish muskets either, being that my interest lies in the Mexican era
> campaigns where imported British arms were almost exclusively used.
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> At a quick glance it looks like the 1752 musket. The French-style
> lock was characteristic of that weapon.
>
> It's not on the Pedersoli website, so either it's really new, or
> perhaps they did only a limited run. Loyalist arms has had a
> percussion conversion of a French musket made by Pedersoli on their
> website for years, although it's never shown up on Pedersoli's website.
>
> -Tony
>
> On Nov 3, 2009, at 9:40 PM, john navarro wrote:
>
> > Phil,
> > do you know what model this is? I'm mounted and use a carbine I'm
> > not up on my Infantry muskets.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > --- On Tue, 11/3/09, Phil Graf <phil_graf@hotmail.
> <mailto:phil_graf%40hotmail.com> com> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Phil Graf <phil_graf@hotmail. <mailto:phil_graf%40hotmail.com> com>
> >> Subject: [Soldados] New Spanish Musket by Pedersoli
> >> To: Soldados@yahoogroup <mailto:Soldados%40yahoogroups.com> s.com
> >> Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 10:00 PM
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Here's the link to it in their
> >> online catalogue:
> >>
> >> http://www.dixiegun
> >> works.com/ product_info. php?products_ id=15323
> >>
> >> <http://www.dixiegun
> >> works.com/ product_info. php?products_ id=15323&
> >> osCsid=942a
> >>
> >> 4c04658c3a39a08fc56 6ced1339c> &osCsid=942a4c04658
> >> c3a39a08fc566ced 1339c
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Phil Graf
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>_____
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Soldados@yahoogroup
> >> s.com [mailto:Soldados@yahoogroup
> >> s.com] On Behalf
> >>
> >> Of john navarro
> >>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 8:56 PM
> >>
> >> To: Soldados@yahoogroup
> >> s.com
> >>
> >> Subject: [Soldados] (unknown)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Soldados,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I just got an order from Dixie Gun Works and In the package
> >> is the little
> >>
> >> newspaper with new items and specials.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> WHAT did I find on page 15? A Spanish Musket!
> >>
> >> I Quote "Reproduced for Spanish Colonial
> >> Reenacting"!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Brass hardware, large ring top jaw screw, 44 1/2in 69 cal
> >> barrel. WOW!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The price $1400.00 intro special $1200.00 wow!!!!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I also ordered a new catalouge that is supposed to come
> >> later this month I
> >>
> >> hope it's listed in it.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> John Navarro
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to: Soldados-unsubscrib
> <mailto:Soldados-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com> e@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Please check http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Soldados/links>
> yahoo.com/group/Soldados/links for links
> > of interest,
> > and our files section at http://groups.
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Soldados/> yahoo.com/group/Soldados/
> > files for reference material, photos and equipment!Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This is the 1757(the 1752 had a wooden rammer), but the cock and barrel
bands aren't correct. One of our Garrison had spoken to Pedersoli
directly about making this and they wanted us to order 10 at a time. It
is great that they have chosen to make it. It'll do.



Rick



Rick



Richard A. Collins
Manager, Medical Television & Teleconferencing

AHSC Biomedical Communications
001-520-626-7216   cell 001-520-429-0598

TV Trouble 001-520-626-7216

rickc@...
http://webcast.ahsc.arizona.edu

________________________________

From: Soldados@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Soldados@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of anthony campisi
Sent: 2009-11-03 22:46
To: Soldados@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Soldados] New Spanish Musket by Pedersoli





At a quick glance it looks like the 1752 musket. The French-style
lock was characteristic of that weapon.

It's not on the Pedersoli website, so either it's really new, or
perhaps they did only a limited run. Loyalist arms has had a
percussion conversion of a French musket made by Pedersoli on their
website for years, although it's never shown up on Pedersoli's website.

-Tony

On Nov 3, 2009, at 9:40 PM, john navarro wrote:

> Phil,
> do you know what model this is? I'm mounted and use a carbine I'm
> not up on my Infantry muskets.
>
> John
>
>
> --- On Tue, 11/3/09, Phil Graf <phil_graf@...
<mailto:phil_graf%40hotmail.com> > wrote:
>
>> From: Phil Graf <phil_graf@...
<mailto:phil_graf%40hotmail.com> >
>> Subject: [Soldados] New Spanish Musket by Pedersoli
>> To: Soldados@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Soldados%40yahoogroups.com>
>> Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 10:00 PM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Here's the link to it in their
>> online catalogue:
>>
>> http://www.dixiegun
>> works.com/ product_info. php?products_ id=15323
>>
>> <http://www.dixiegun
>> works.com/ product_info. php?products_ id=15323&
>> osCsid=942a
>>
>> 4c04658c3a39a08fc56 6ced1339c> &osCsid=942a4c04658
>> c3a39a08fc566ced 1339c
>>
>>
>>
>> Phil Graf
>>
>>
>>
>> _____
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Soldados@yahoogroup
>> s.com [mailto:Soldados@yahoogroup
>> s.com] On Behalf
>>
>> Of john navarro
>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 8:56 PM
>>
>> To: Soldados@yahoogroup
>> s.com
>>
>> Subject: [Soldados] (unknown)
>>
>>
>>
>> Soldados,
>>
>>
>>
>> I just got an order from Dixie Gun Works and In the package
>> is the little
>>
>> newspaper with new items and specials.
>>
>>
>>
>> WHAT did I find on page 15? A Spanish Musket!
>>
>> I Quote "Reproduced for Spanish Colonial
>> Reenacting"!
>>
>>
>>
>> Brass hardware, large ring top jaw screw, 44 1/2in 69 cal
>> barrel. WOW!
>>
>>
>>
>> The price $1400.00 intro special $1200.00 wow!!!!
>>
>>
>>
>> I also ordered a new catalouge that is supposed to come
>> later this month I
>>
>> hope it's listed in it.
>>
>>
>>
>> John Navarro
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to: Soldados-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Soldados-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> Please check http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Soldados/links
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Soldados/links>  for links
> of interest,
> and our files section at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Soldados/
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Soldados/>
> files for reference material, photos and equipment!Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,

I would call it a 1757 Spanish replica since it uses brass hardware and the
ramrod is metal. The 1752 was the same basic design but did not use brass and
has a wooden ramrod. Looks very nice.

Eliud

--- In Soldados@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Graf" <phil_graf@...> wrote:
>
> I'd call it a 1752 model as well, though I'm not really up on all the
> Spanish muskets either, being that my interest lies in the Mexican era
> campaigns where imported British arms were almost exclusively used.
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> At a quick glance it looks like the 1752 musket. The French-style
> lock was characteristic of that weapon.
>
> It's not on the Pedersoli website, so either it's really new, or
> perhaps they did only a limited run. Loyalist arms has had a
> percussion conversion of a French musket made by Pedersoli on their
> website for years, although it's never shown up on Pedersoli's website.
>
> -Tony
>
> On Nov 3, 2009, at 9:40 PM, john navarro wrote:
>
> > Phil,
> > do you know what model this is? I'm mounted and use a carbine I'm
> > not up on my Infantry muskets.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > --- On Tue, 11/3/09, Phil Graf <phil_graf@hotmail.
> <mailto:phil_graf%40hotmail.com> com> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Phil Graf <phil_graf@hotmail. <mailto:phil_graf%40hotmail.com> com>
> >> Subject: [Soldados] New Spanish Musket by Pedersoli
> >> To: Soldados@yahoogroup <mailto:Soldados%40yahoogroups.com> s.com
> >> Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 10:00 PM
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Here's the link to it in their
> >> online catalogue:
> >>
> >> http://www.dixiegun
> >> works.com/ product_info. php?products_ id=15323
> >>
> >> <http://www.dixiegun
> >> works.com/ product_info. php?products_ id=15323&
> >> osCsid=942a
> >>
> >> 4c04658c3a39a08fc56 6ced1339c> &osCsid=942a4c04658
> >> c3a39a08fc566ced 1339c
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Phil Graf
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _____
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Soldados@yahoogroup
> >> s.com [mailto:Soldados@yahoogroup
> >> s.com] On Behalf
> >>
> >> Of john navarro
> >>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 8:56 PM
> >>
> >> To: Soldados@yahoogroup
> >> s.com
> >>
> >> Subject: [Soldados] (unknown)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Soldados,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I just got an order from Dixie Gun Works and In the package
> >> is the little
> >>
> >> newspaper with new items and specials.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> WHAT did I find on page 15? A Spanish Musket!
> >>
> >> I Quote "Reproduced for Spanish Colonial
> >> Reenacting"!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Brass hardware, large ring top jaw screw, 44 1/2in 69 cal
> >> barrel. WOW!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The price $1400.00 intro special $1200.00 wow!!!!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I also ordered a new catalouge that is supposed to come
> >> later this month I
> >>
> >> hope it's listed in it.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> John Navarro
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to: Soldados-unsubscrib
> <mailto:Soldados-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com> e@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Please check http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Soldados/links>
> yahoo.com/group/Soldados/links for links
> > of interest,
> > and our files section at http://groups.
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Soldados/> yahoo.com/group/Soldados/
> > files for reference material, photos and equipment!Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I'd call it a 1752 model as well, though I'm not really up on all the
Spanish muskets either, being that my interest lies in the Mexican era
campaigns where imported British arms were almost exclusively used.



Phil



At a quick glance it looks like the 1752 musket. The French-style
lock was characteristic of that weapon.

It's not on the Pedersoli website, so either it's really new, or
perhaps they did only a limited run. Loyalist arms has had a
percussion conversion of a French musket made by Pedersoli on their
website for years, although it's never shown up on Pedersoli's website.

-Tony

On Nov 3, 2009, at 9:40 PM, john navarro wrote:

> Phil,
> do you know what model this is? I'm mounted and use a carbine I'm
> not up on my Infantry muskets.
>
> John
>
>
> --- On Tue, 11/3/09, Phil Graf <phil_graf@hotmail.
<mailto:phil_graf%40hotmail.com> com> wrote:
>
>> From: Phil Graf <phil_graf@hotmail. <mailto:phil_graf%40hotmail.com> com>
>> Subject: [Soldados] New Spanish Musket by Pedersoli
>> To: Soldados@yahoogroup <mailto:Soldados%40yahoogroups.com> s.com
>> Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 10:00 PM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Here's the link to it in their
>> online catalogue:
>>
>> http://www.dixiegun
>> works.com/ product_info. php?products_ id=15323
>>
>> <http://www.dixiegun
>> works.com/ product_info. php?products_ id=15323&
>> osCsid=942a
>>
>> 4c04658c3a39a08fc56 6ced1339c> &osCsid=942a4c04658
>> c3a39a08fc566ced 1339c
>>
>>
>>
>> Phil Graf
>>
>>
>>
>> _____
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Soldados@yahoogroup
>> s.com [mailto:Soldados@yahoogroup
>> s.com] On Behalf
>>
>> Of john navarro
>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 8:56 PM
>>
>> To: Soldados@yahoogroup
>> s.com
>>
>> Subject: [Soldados] (unknown)
>>
>>
>>
>> Soldados,
>>
>>
>>
>> I just got an order from Dixie Gun Works and In the package
>> is the little
>>
>> newspaper with new items and specials.
>>
>>
>>
>> WHAT did I find on page 15? A Spanish Musket!
>>
>> I Quote "Reproduced for Spanish Colonial
>> Reenacting"!
>>
>>
>>
>> Brass hardware, large ring top jaw screw, 44 1/2in 69 cal
>> barrel. WOW!
>>
>>
>>
>> The price $1400.00 intro special $1200.00 wow!!!!
>>
>>
>>
>> I also ordered a new catalouge that is supposed to come
>> later this month I
>>
>> hope it's listed in it.
>>
>>
>>
>> John Navarro
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to: Soldados-unsubscrib
<mailto:Soldados-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com> e@yahoogroups.com
>
> Please check http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Soldados/links>
yahoo.com/group/Soldados/links for links
> of interest,
> and our files section at http://groups.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Soldados/> yahoo.com/group/Soldados/
> files for reference material, photos and equipment!Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At a quick glance it looks like the 1752 musket.  The French-style
lock was characteristic of that weapon.

It's not on the Pedersoli website, so either it's really new, or
perhaps they did only a limited run.  Loyalist arms has had a
percussion conversion of a French musket made by Pedersoli  on their
website for years, although it's never shown up on Pedersoli's website.

-Tony


On Nov 3, 2009, at 9:40 PM, john navarro wrote:

> Phil,
> do you know what model this is? I'm mounted and use a carbine I'm
> not up on my Infantry muskets.
>
> John
>
>
> --- On Tue, 11/3/09, Phil Graf <phil_graf@...> wrote:
>
>> From: Phil Graf <phil_graf@...>
>> Subject: [Soldados] New Spanish Musket by Pedersoli
>> To: Soldados@yahoogroups.com
>> Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 10:00 PM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>                  Here's the link to it in their
>> online catalogue:
>>
>> http://www.dixiegun
>> works.com/ product_info. php?products_ id=15323
>>
>> <http://www.dixiegun
>> works.com/ product_info. php?products_ id=15323&
>> osCsid=942a
>>
>> 4c04658c3a39a08fc56 6ced1339c> &osCsid=942a4c04658
>> c3a39a08fc566ced 1339c
>>
>>
>>
>> Phil Graf
>>
>>
>>
>> _____
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Soldados@yahoogroup
>> s.com [mailto:Soldados@yahoogroup
>> s.com] On Behalf
>>
>> Of john navarro
>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 8:56 PM
>>
>> To: Soldados@yahoogroup
>> s.com
>>
>> Subject: [Soldados] (unknown)
>>
>>
>>
>> Soldados,
>>
>>
>>
>> I just got an order from Dixie Gun Works and In the package
>> is the little
>>
>> newspaper with new items and specials.
>>
>>
>>
>> WHAT did I find on page 15? A Spanish Musket!
>>
>> I Quote "Reproduced for Spanish Colonial
>> Reenacting"!
>>
>>
>>
>> Brass hardware, large ring top jaw screw, 44 1/2in 69 cal
>> barrel. WOW!
>>
>>
>>
>> The price $1400.00 intro special $1200.00 wow!!!!
>>
>>
>>
>> I also ordered a new catalouge that is supposed to come
>> later this month I
>>
>> hope it's listed in it.
>>
>>
>>
>> John Navarro
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to: Soldados-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Please check http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Soldados/links for links
> of interest,
> and our files section at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Soldados/
> files for reference material, photos and equipment!Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>