Just want to throw a couple of quick comments (speculations really):

Cartridges in pockets:
I suspect that they would be carrying only about half-dozen cartridges
max, not like 20! Also is it possible that they had cartridge boxes,
but that they were commonly omitted from depictions? Or are the
artists generally reliable on that account?

Dropping lances to fire carbines:
I've heard (but can't remember where -- may have been in this group),
that some lancers balance the lance across the front of the saddle???
I'm by no means a horseman, but if you're firing your escopeta, you're
probably stationary. I don't know how feasible this would be.

Authenticity:
This is a general question for everybody-- how do you handle missing
info? Let me give you an example: My civil war reenactment group is
the 1st NM Volunteer Infantry. During the Confederate invasion of New
Mexico (1861 - May 1862), we have no photographs of enlisted men.
Nothing (ok there might be one, but it would have to have been
mislabelled). We have data that there were supply shortages, some
companies report being given very bad clothing . . . but no specifics
(i.e. was it early poor contractor stuff that managed to make it down
the trail, or old worn out garbage lying around in local depots?).
There were also canteen shortages until at least the very end of
1861. -- I am loathe to be without a canteen at any reenactment/
living history event. Now, I have this odd setup that I put
together. It's a glass bottle in a woven container slung over my
shoulder by a rope. I will sometimes carry this, instead of my
(rusting) canteen. The bottle isn't period, and I'm not sure about
the woven thing (it's actually like knitted out of light-weight
rope). I'm totally honest about it when people ask though. I tell
them what the situation was in 1861, and that we really don't know
what they had -- but, they would have carried water with them
somehow. I point out it's not a period bottle, and the container
should probably be more like a woven basket.

One of the reasons I'm asking this, is because this bottle actually
draws a lot of attention. People think it's really cool. As do I --
glass is a very nice container to drink out of. :-)

Thanks,
-Tony


On Jul 11, 2009, at 7:50 PM, David Rickman wrote:

> Hello Zieg,
> Regarding sources, it is hard to know where to begin. I've been
> researching this stuff in primary and secondary sources for ages.
> Some things are published, such as the 1729 Reglamento I mentioned
> earlier, which is a primary source, or the Max Moorehead book The
> Presidio, which is a good secondary source. And then there is the
> archival work - looking at memoirs, finding regulations, looking at
> supply lists, etc. Finally, and quite importantly, looking at real
> stuff: eyewitness pictures, actual artifact. For an obscure part of
> the 18th century world, there is a lot of information to absorb.
> But, as I mentioned before, the earlier period that you have chosen,
> since it is pre-regulation, is going to be less specific about what
> soldiers are wearing, which actually makes your task more difficult.
>
> Perhaps we can all contribute our favorite published sources to a
> general bibliography in the Files section.
>
> David
>
> --- In Soldados@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Paul Ziegler" <thezieg@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> Very good about no cartridge box. That's A-OK with me. At the
>> risk of
>> sounding vulgar in my approach, I'm keen to spend what I have to
>> spend, but
>> there's only so much much money to go around. If I don't have to
>> buy or
>> make a cartridge box or belt, that leaves more money and time to
>> put into
>> the rest of the kit. Now that I read that sentence over again, I
>> realize
>> that I'm not sounding vulgar so much as repeating the very same
>> concerns of
>> the soldado on the frontier. "Es el mismo perro con diferente
>> collar."
>>
>> So this brings me to the next big question: where are you getting
>> your
>> info. I'd like to get to the point where I'm finding these things
>> out for
>> myself and bringing them here for your input. I'm thrilled that I
>> have so
>> much guidance (that you have the knowledge and that you're so
>> willing to
>> share it) but I'd like to be more than just the tabula rasa. What
>> sources
>> are available online that I'm missing?
>>
>> Zieg
>>
>> Eric Paul Ziegler
>> Double E Farm
>> Elizabeth CO
>> classicalequitation@...
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Soldados@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Soldados@yahoogroups.com] On
>> Behalf
>> Of David Rickman
>> Sent: Friday, 10 July, 2009 8:32 PM
>> To: Soldados@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: [Soldados] Why no cartridge box?
>>
>> A bit of quick research seems to indicate that no cartridge box was
>> carried
>> by soldados de cuera in the early-18th century. The Reglamento de
>> 1729 lists
>> "Prices to be charged in the presidios for provisions, equipment
>> and other
>> necessities which must be provided for the soldiers." These include
>> not only
>> the cost of the cuera (25 pesos in Coahuila as compared with 40
>> pesos in New
>> Mexico) but also shows that soldiers carried their swords on baldrics
>> (tahalies) costing 4 - 5 pesos, depending on location. Muskets cost
>> 25 - 30
>> pesos, and their saddle scabbards (fundas) were 3 - 6 pesos plain
>> and 6 - 10
>> pesos when embroidered with pita and silk. But there is no mention
>> of either
>> pistols or cartridge carriers of any kind. That is one bit of
>> evidence.
>>
>> Next is the fact that quite a number of cavalry units in New Spain,
>> even in
>> Mexico City prior to the second half of the 18th century appear to
>> have been
>> without cartridge boxes, judging from period artwork. This means
>> they had to
>> carry cartridges either on themselves or their saddles.
>>
>> Next, the regulations note that as part of their pay, soldados de
>> cuera were
>> given only 6 pounds of powder per year and that if they wanted to
>> buy more,
>> it cost them 5 reales per ounce. Add to that that lead and paper
>> were paid
>> for by the soldiers themselves and you begin to think it likely
>> that the
>> firearms were only a weapon of last resort.
>>
>> Lastly, the 1729 Reglamento lists the component parts of the soldados
>> saddles, which include saddle trees, rump covers (anqueras), and
>> corazas (a
>> larger form of mochila). They also include a pair of saddle bags
>> (cojinillos) which, very likely, were mounted under the coraza but
>> at the
>> front of the saddle, within easy reach of the rider - as seen in
>> Father
>> Tirsch's pictures of saddles. My opinion is that the soldados de
>> cueras of
>> the 1740s - 1750s did not fire their escopetas often and, when they
>> did,
>> they reached into their saddlebag for another cartridge.
>>
>> David
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to: Soldados-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Please check http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Soldados/links for links
> of interest,
> and our files section at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Soldados/
> files for reference material, photos and equipment!Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>