No kidding. I do have that book, with publishing date 1955. You can have it
together with 8 original reprints of Karol Plicka work directly form the
national museum in Martin for US$ 350.00.

I only have one book for sale if you interested.


In the mean time please take a look at:

http://www.slovakheritage.org/Shopping/Books/ethnographic_atlas.htm

http://www.slovakheritage.org/Shopping/Books/familytraditions.htm

http://www.slovakheritage.org/Townsvill/spring2003.htm

http://www.slovakheritage.org/Shopping/Books/Tapeset.htm

http://www.slovakheritage.org/Folkgroups/lucnicapoprad.htm

http://www.slovakheritage.org/Folkgroups/lucnicabojnice2000.htm

http://www.slovakheritage.org/WestSideStory/westsidestory.htm





t 02:31 AM 4/29/2003 +0000, you wrote:
>A few years ago I found a book of photographs by Karol Plicka
>called "Slovensko".  It was published in 1949, and the preface is
>in English plus other languages.  It has 224 beautiful photos of
>Slovakia and it's people.
>
>Powells Bookstore in Portland Oregon has a copy plus and
>another book which might be a later edition:
>
><http://www.powells.com/search/DTSearch/search?kw=Slovensk>http://www.powells.c\
om/search/DTSearch/search?kw=Slovensk
>o&Search.x=23&Search.y=4&pokey=skeptopotamus
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
><http://rd.yahoo.com/M=229633.3212141.4526654.2595810/D=egroupweb/S=1705103562:\
HM/A=1556779/R=0/*http://shop.store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/clink?ftd2+shopping:dmad/M\
=229633.3212141.4526654.2595810/D=egroupweb/S=1705103562:HM/A=1556779/R=1/105158\
3528+http://us.rmi.yahoo.com/rmi/http://www.ftd.com/rmi-framed-url/http://www.ft\
d.com/yahoo36>154017b.jpg
>
>15401bc.jpg
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Slovak-World-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
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><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.

   ----------

Vladimir Linder

I do Genealogical research, Ancsestral Village Videos and Ancestral Village
Photography in Slovakia.

More information on:
Genealogy:
http://www.slovakheritage.org/Shopping/Genrsrch/genealogical_research.htm
Ancestral Village Videos:
http://www.slovakheritage.org/Shopping/Videos/ancestral_videos.htm
Ancestral Village Photography:
http://www.slovakheritage.org/Shopping/Videos/ancestral_photography.htm

Slovak-English and English Slovak Translations US$25.00 per page

NEXT ANCESTRAL VIDEO AND GENEALOGY RESEARCH TRIP STARTS MARCH 2003

To reach me in Slovakia please email me at: vlinder49@...
My cell in Slovakia is: 011-421-907-297-508

Email: vlinder49@...

Contact me for more details
Vladimir Linder
3804 Yale Street
Burnaby, BC, V5C 1P6, CANADA
Phone/Fax: 1-604-291-8065, Cell: 1-604-889-4616



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No kidding. I do have that book, with publishing date 1955. You can have it
together with 8 original reprints of Karol Plicka work directly form the
national museum in Martin for US$ 350.00.

I only have one book for sale if you interested.


In the mean time please take a look at:

http://www.slovakheritage.org/Shopping/Books/plickaslovakia.htm

http://www.slovakheritage.org/Shopping/Books/ethnographic_atlas.htm

http://www.slovakheritage.org/Shopping/Books/familytraditions.htm

http://www.slovakheritage.org/Townsvill/spring2003.htm

http://www.slovakheritage.org/Shopping/Books/Tapeset.htm

http://www.slovakheritage.org/Folkgroups/lucnicapoprad.htm

http://www.slovakheritage.org/Folkgroups/lucnicabojnice2000.htm

http://www.slovakheritage.org/WestSideStory/westsidestory.htm





t 02:31 AM 4/29/2003 +0000, you wrote:
>A few years ago I found a book of photographs by Karol Plicka
>called "Slovensko".  It was published in 1949, and the preface is
>in English plus other languages.  It has 224 beautiful photos of
>Slovakia and it's people.
>
>Powells Bookstore in Portland Oregon has a copy plus and
>another book which might be a later edition:
>
><http://www.powells.com/search/DTSearch/search?kw=Slovensk>http://www.powells.c\
om/search/DTSearch/search?kw=Slovensk
>o&Search.x=23&Search.y=4&pokey=skeptopotamus
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
><http://rd.yahoo.com/M=229633.3212141.4526654.2595810/D=egroupweb/S=1705103562:\
HM/A=1556779/R=0/*http://shop.store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/clink?ftd2+shopping:dmad/M\
=229633.3212141.4526654.2595810/D=egroupweb/S=1705103562:HM/A=1556779/R=1/105158\
3528+http://us.rmi.yahoo.com/rmi/http://www.ftd.com/rmi-framed-url/http://www.ft\
d.com/yahoo36>248846c.jpg
>
>2488471.jpg
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Slovak-World-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.

   ----------

Vladimir Linder

I do Genealogical research, Ancsestral Village Videos and Ancestral Village
Photography in Slovakia.

More information on:
Genealogy:
http://www.slovakheritage.org/Shopping/Genrsrch/genealogical_research.htm
Ancestral Village Videos:
http://www.slovakheritage.org/Shopping/Videos/ancestral_videos.htm
Ancestral Village Photography:
http://www.slovakheritage.org/Shopping/Videos/ancestral_photography.htm

Slovak-English and English Slovak Translations US$25.00 per page

NEXT ANCESTRAL VIDEO AND GENEALOGY RESEARCH TRIP STARTS MARCH 2003

To reach me in Slovakia please email me at: vlinder49@...
My cell in Slovakia is: 011-421-907-297-508

Email: vlinder49@...

Contact me for more details
Vladimir Linder
3804 Yale Street
Burnaby, BC, V5C 1P6, CANADA
Phone/Fax: 1-604-291-8065, Cell: 1-604-889-4616



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ahoj Friends,      Well, I looks like this will be the year!  The wife and I
just decided to travel to Slovakia for the first time.  I will be the first of
my family to travel back there since my grandparents came to this country in
1906.  Now the process of getting the passport, tickets, ect. gets started.
Gee......can you tell Im excited?????????????? Jim

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You will enjoy every minute of that trip. I can guarantee you will want to go
again.
I know that feeling of excitement and anticipation.

My sister and I were the first in our family to travel back (1st time in 2000)
since my grandparents came to the US in 1913/14.  You will be overwhelmed with
indescribable emotion when you set foot in the village of your grandparents.

Bernardine

capt jack wrote:
  >
  > Ahoj Friends,      Well, I looks like this will be the year!  The wife and I
just
  > decided to travel to Slovakia for the first time.  I will be the first of my
  > family to travel back there since my grandparents came to this country in
1906.
  > Now the process of getting the passport, tickets, ect. gets started.
Gee......can
  > you tell Im excited?????????????? Jim
  >
  > ---------------------------------
  > Do you Yahoo!?
  > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
  >
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >
  >
  >
  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  > Slovak-World-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
  >
  >
  >
  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
  >
  >

Bernardine,      Yes, that is exactly what I want to do, walk the streets of my
grandfathers village, and imagine him doing the same.  To breath the same air he
did, I think it will bring to me some sort of closure that I have always felt I
needed. Jim


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I found a website that lists a few copies of Timrava's
books:  www.bookfinder.com  No idea if these are out-of-date duplicate
listings of books that listmembers have already bought, but it's worth
checking, if anyone's still trying to get the book.

Julie Michutka
jmm@...

definetly DVD Jerry, its the best thing oout there right now for storage of
info. and can be played back in dvd players, in computors, and some cameras. Jim

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi: I'm getting a lot of spam. The latest is a place to buy any and all
kind of drugs including valium etc. without a prescription. They supposedly
have their on doctor. I don't want any but I think this could be some kind
of a scam. The email is
ab4ttljrb@...   The "lu" at the end of the email...is this some kind
of a foreign country?
Dave

Capt. Jack...You're going to love the trip and the country. It will be the
trip of your lifetime.
Dave
At 06:49 PM 4/29/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Bernardine,      Yes, that is exactly what I want to do, walk the streets
>of my grandfathers village, and imagine him doing the same.  To breath the
>same air he did, I think it will bring to me some sort of closure that I
>have always felt I needed. Jim
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Slovak-World-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

At 09:33 AM 4/28/03 -0400, you wrote:
>Welcome to Pittsburgh!  We moved here from Milwaukee in 1968 for grad school
>at CMU and have found it to be a jewel that is protected by its historic,
>but now untrue, image as the smoky city.  The life and lore of the city has
>served our family wonderfully.  Our four children are all college educated
>and are not unidimensional.  The city is compact and manageable and is rich
>in cultural resources.


Thanks, Bruce!  My daughter spent 6 weeks there last summer, in a program
at CMU, and loved it (not that that made it a shoo-in for her decision; she
really agonized over her choices), both the university and the city.  I'm
looking forward to getting to know the area!

Julie Michutka
jmm@...

Hi David,

Sounds like you've gotten on mailing lists. Sometimes when entering a site you
can trip a program embedded into the site that keeps your address and then sells
it just like snail mail address are sold. What level Windows do you have? What
is the carrier you use? AOL? MSN? JUNO?

You've definitely got to clean house regularly of your 'Temporary Internet
files', and depending on your Windows there are different ways of doing it. How
familiar are you with your Windows program?

I have MSN with that big butterfly guy who's suppose to block all the ugly
stuff, and it does do a pretty good job. But I'm still getting some uglies
getting thru, so I can imagine what the less beefy carriers are letting in. I
had to give up JUNO for just that reason. There just was no blocking it!

You should use "Disk Cleanup" in the Windows Start/Programs/Accessories/System
tools to clean up "Temporary Internet Files" manually every other day or so. You
can also ask your carrier for help blocking SPAM. And you can buy programs that
help block SPAM. They are shareware and often come right to you to sell
themselves (another company buying your address!). Right now I'm having trouble
with Pop-ups, and the guy sending them is trying to sell me software to stop
Pop-ups! Talk about gall!

But for good computer/internet maintenance I would really recommend getting
Norton SystemWorks which has a one button diagnostics-and-fix of your whole
system and internet connections. Cleans up stuff you didn't even know you had
that could cause trouble! And it starts itself once a week at a time you decide
on to make sure you keep your 'house clean'.

But the complete solution would be to delete all your cookies, which would lose
all Favorite sites. And then cancel getting your Slovak email delivered, and go
to the main site to read the email. And still, I'm not sure that would get you
out of the depraved hands of those "mailing lists".

But using Disk Cleanup is absolutely essential. If you have an older version of
Windows, you can even go in and personally delete all the "temporary internet
files" and empty the History files of all the sites you've been in the last week
or two. It happens to lots of people, not jus Yahoo group users.

If I'm wrong, more savy Gurus please correct me!!

claudia
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: David
   To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 10:40 PM
   Subject: [Slovak-World] Drugs online


   Hi: I'm getting a lot of spam. The latest is a place to buy any and all
   kind of drugs including valium etc. without a prescription. They supposedly
   have their on doctor. I don't want any but I think this could be some kind
   of a scam. The email is
   ab4ttljrb@...   The "lu" at the end of the email...is this some kind
   of a foreign country?
   Dave


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   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Where some of our Slovak people suffered and died.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/ocregister/gulag.html

As I walked the streets of a small village, Sedmerovec, in Northwestern
Slovakia, I thought of my grandfather, then 19 years old, leaving this village
bravely for Bremen to come to Milwaukee Wisconsin in 1904.  I met Michal Bagin,
a contemporary of my father who fought in WWII in Italy and who became fluent in
Italian while convalescing in a hospital.  There on a July afternoon in 2001 was
this man conversing in Italian with my wife, while his family, our interpreters
and me were speechless.

Michal Bagin produced a photograph dated 1912 from his grandfather, Filip
Bagin,of four men sitting on a bench in Milwaukee Wisconsin with the German
Gingerbread skyline with my grandfather 2nd from the left in the picture.  My
Grandfather, Karol (Charles) Bagin was married to Maria Minar on September 27,
1913.  His best man was Filip Bagin.

As I walked the streets of Sedmerovec, I thought of my great grandparents and
the harshness of the life, and that I was standing on the very land that my
grandfather grew up as  a small boy, in the 1880s.  It was a thrilling feeling.

I never did find the birthplace of my  grandmother.  Maria Minar.  born
6-15-1881.
Minar is an uncommon name, I am told, but it abounds around Obyce and
Partizanske; however my correspondence with the Slovak redcord keepers did not
produce a match for my grandmother.

I am glad that I went to Slovakia when aI did because I am now a wheelchair user
and international travel is too difficult on sound legs.  I know that you will
love the country and the people.  I feel that my life is now complete and as one
of the villagers said you are now home.

Enjoy your trip!!
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: capt jack
   To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 9:49 PM
   Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] slovakia


   Bernardine,      Yes, that is exactly what I want to do, walk the streets of
my grandfathers village, and imagine him doing the same.  To breath the same air
he did, I think it will bring to me some sort of closure that I have always felt
I needed. Jim


   ---------------------------------
   Do you Yahoo!?
   The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
   Slovak-World-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OK, am I the only reader who would like to give the girl in "The Assistant
Teacher" a good shaking?  LOL  She must be about 17.......(and yet, her
parents are old).   I do like young Somos;   I enjoy Timrava's depictions
of both these young people.

Rudinsky mentions (p. xi, introduction) the two castes in Timrava's
stories, "the numerous peasants and the scattered village
intelligentsia".  Our heroine, who appears to be a nameless runaway from a
Jane Austen novel, belongs to the latter group.  (How interesting that both
Timrava and Austen are never-married daughters/sisters of clergy.)  In
spite of a school population of 60 pupils, some of whom must have older
brothers, she has no one in the village to flirt with.  (I found myself
wondering if her parents "need" an assistant teacher as much to marry their
daughter as to relieve papa whose eyesight and hearing are failing.)  Her
chores seem to be limited to setting the table--we don't see her cooking,
or tending animals.  Mama scolds/is cheerful to "the whole household",
which makes it sound like there are some unseen helping hands besides old
Kata about the place (but not other children--"don't you know you're all we
have" says mama on p. 19).  Their house has 3 bedrooms, which seems large
for the time, judging by the houses I've seen at Slovak skansens (outdoor
musuems with period houses/furnishings)--but someone correct me if I'm
wrong on that.

So many of us on this list are descended from Slovaks who were part of "the
numerous peasants" who came to America in search of a better life.  Does
anyone know of being descended from the "village intelligentsia", and if
so, what family stories have you heard?  Rudinsky says that the two castes
were socially and economically distinct, but then she seems to contradict
herself there with regard to the economic distinction:  the peasant caste
ranges from "rich farmers" on down, while village parsons are part of the
intelligentsia but "live meagerly".

As I go through my village parish records, I see signs of some folks being
more important than others-- their entries are larger, lists of witnesses
to the event are longer, etc.  Unfortunately, I can't read the village
history book well enough yet to see if these folks are discussed, and what
their role in the village was; although sometimes they are noted as
"dominus" in the record entries.

I've run out of time to write any more right now.....what else catches your
attention in this story?

Julie Michutka, trying to think of a Jane Austen-ish title for this story
jmm@...

Well, one thing I have now learned is that I've got to get up a whole lot
earlier each morning of the discussions in order to contribute anything half way
intelligent ;)) I read Julie's comments which were posted at 6:33 about 10
mintes or so after posting. I've been up since 6 and out of bed since 6:06 but
hurrying around to leave ... so just a short comment and then I will send more
later today ...

yes, Julie, I agree with you, the daughter in the story sounds quite spoiled.
Her behavior sounds very unusual when compared with what little I know about the
early lives of my father and grandparents. Dad was born in Presov and my
grandparents in small villages close to Presov. Their lives were hard with
little time left for self-indulgence.

I'll try to send more late but this is just my initial response given in haste
and probably needing elaboration.
Later ...
Carol

At 06:55 AM 4/30/03 -0400, you wrote:
>Well, one thing I have now learned is that I've got to get up a whole lot
>earlier each morning of the discussions in order to contribute anything
>half way intelligent ;)) I read Julie's comments which were posted at 6:33

confession....I knew I'd be out for much of the morning so I typed it up
last night and then this morning I turned on the computer and hit "send".......

Julie

Thanks for the "confession" - I was beginning to think I was a total slouch
:))))
>
> From: "J. Michutka" <jmm@...>
> Date: 2003/04/30 Wed AM 07:39:58 EDT
> To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] Re: TIMRAVA
>
> At 06:55 AM 4/30/03 -0400, you wrote:
> >Well, one thing I have now learned is that I've got to get up a whole lot
> >earlier each morning of the discussions in order to contribute anything
> >half way intelligent ;)) I read Julie's comments which were posted at 6:33
>
> confession....I knew I'd be out for much of the morning so I typed it up
> last night and then this morning I turned on the computer and hit
"send".......
>
> Julie
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Slovak-World-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Jim;

Breathe the air, drink the water, eat the food, walk the earth, meet with the
people (who will look very familiar :-) and enjoy the Slivovice as your
grandfather no doubt did early in the last century.  His spirit will be with
you.  It's a very moving experience and will be a highlight of your life
Enjoy!

Regards,

Florian

n a message dated 4/29/03 9:49:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
captjack00@... writes:


> Bernardine,      Yes, that is exactly what I want to do, walk the streets of
> my grandfathers village, and imagine him doing the same.  To breath the
> same air he did, I think it will bring to me some sort of closure that I
> have always felt I needed. Jim
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'd like to be 2nd in line to give her a shaking.  I wonder why Somos
would put up with her.  Was it the prestige of marrying a pastor's
daughter?  Or was that the only "class" that he was expected to choose
from and the pickings were slim?  If you read the description of what
the narrator (we never do learn her name) wishes for before she ever
sees Somos, "I could imagine his raven hair, his black eyes, his
magnetic personality, and his uniquely good heart," you can see that she
got exactly what she wished for.  Too bad she didn't remember to wish
for good looks.

To get an assistant, the father wrote to his friend to send his son.
How much autonomy did the father have to run his school?  Was there no
central administration he could ask to send an assistant?

There was one other "helper" mentioned, Borica, the "hired man"
('zeliar' in the original--Kata was a 'zeliarka,' which Norma translates
as "the poor widow".  'Zeliar' = farm hand or hired man, acc'd to the
dictionary.)

One thing I found kind of curious has to do with her friend Esther.
It's a Jewish name from the Old Testament.  Would such a name have been
given to a Lutheran girl?  Also, there's something in the original that
was dropped in the translation.  Esther's "slightly crooked nose" is "a
slightly crooked little Jewish nose" in the original.

Helen


>>> jmm@... 04/30/03 06:33AM >>>
OK, am I the only reader who would like to give the girl in "The
Assistant
Teacher" a good shaking?  LOL  She must be about 17.......(and yet, her

parents are old).   I do like young Somos;   I enjoy Timrava's
depictions
of both these young people.

Rudinsky mentions (p. xi, introduction) the two castes in Timrava's
stories, "the numerous peasants and the scattered village
intelligentsia".  Our heroine, who appears to be a nameless runaway
from a
Jane Austen novel, belongs to the latter group.  (How interesting that
both
Timrava and Austen are never-married daughters/sisters of clergy.)  In

spite of a school population of 60 pupils, some of whom must have older

brothers, she has no one in the village to flirt with.  (I found myself

wondering if her parents "need" an assistant teacher as much to marry
their
daughter as to relieve papa whose eyesight and hearing are failing.)
Her
chores seem to be limited to setting the table--we don't see her
cooking,
or tending animals.  Mama scolds/is cheerful to "the whole household",

which makes it sound like there are some unseen helping hands besides
old
Kata about the place (but not other children--"don't you know you're
all we
have" says mama on p. 19).  Their house has 3 bedrooms, which seems
large
for the time, judging by the houses I've seen at Slovak skansens
(outdoor
musuems with period houses/furnishings)--but someone correct me if I'm

wrong on that.

So many of us on this list are descended from Slovaks who were part of
"the
numerous peasants" who came to America in search of a better life.
Does
anyone know of being descended from the "village intelligentsia", and
if
so, what family stories have you heard?  Rudinsky says that the two
castes
were socially and economically distinct, but then she seems to
contradict
herself there with regard to the economic distinction:  the peasant
caste
ranges from "rich farmers" on down, while village parsons are part of
the
intelligentsia but "live meagerly".

As I go through my village parish records, I see signs of some folks
being
more important than others-- their entries are larger, lists of
witnesses
to the event are longer, etc.  Unfortunately, I can't read the village

history book well enough yet to see if these folks are discussed, and
what
their role in the village was; although sometimes they are noted as
"dominus" in the record entries.

I've run out of time to write any more right now.....what else catches
your
attention in this story?

Julie Michutka, trying to think of a Jane Austen-ish title for this
story
jmm@...


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At 11:27 AM 4/30/03 -0400, you wrote:
>I'd like to be 2nd in line to give her a shaking.  I wonder why Somos
>would put up with her.  Was it the prestige of marrying a pastor's
>daughter?  Or was that the only "class" that he was expected to choose
>from and the pickings were slim?

Not knowing enough about the culture, I'd guess......a combination of
things.  Slim pickings; I think they were pre-disposed to be attracted to
each other (she certainly was, and he must have known that there was a
daughter in the household); and you know, I don't get the sense that she
was a bad sort.  Since she is the narrator, we don't get a real description
of her.  She doesn't moan about not being pretty, so I'll bet she's
attractive; and don't you get a sense that she's a lively and friendly sort
when she's not trying to jerk this guy's chain?  Since Somos sees right
through her, I think he's seeing right through to something nice.  She just
needs to grow up a little.

I was wondering where would she have gotten her romantic notions, if "the
romantic ideal of a love match based on free choice.....was still new in
central Europe" (intro p. xii).  But then there's Timrava herself, educated
at home and reading Czech, German, Magyar and Russian.  Who knows, maybe
Jane Austen was translated into German and made its way into Timrava's
life!  Certainly sounds like there must have been a variety of literature
available to those with education and the means to obtain books.


>One thing I found kind of curious has to do with her friend Esther.
>It's a Jewish name from the Old Testament.  Would such a name have been
>given to a Lutheran girl?  Also, there's something in the original that
>was dropped in the translation.  Esther's "slightly crooked nose" is "a
>slightly crooked little Jewish nose" in the original.

Dear Helen, kind Helen, you are gonna be so sorry you let us know that you
have access to the Slovak text!

What an excellent question.  Is it a Jewish nose because Esther is Jewish,
or is it merely descriptive, as we might characterize a nose as Roman or
aquiline?  I'd be surprised if Rudinsky would gloss over Esther being
Jewish; but if it's just descriptive, then I could see her leaving it out
to avoid confusion.  I was under the impression that Esta's family was just
like our protagonist's--pastor/teacher in a village.

Since you have the Slovak text  :)  the salary is 600 *what* per
year?  Does it say?  I'd be curious to compare it (if possible) to what
Grisak made in the mines in his autobiography, which was at about the same
time.

Julie Michutka
jmm@...

First, the salary:  s~est'stozlatova~'= literally, a-600-golden-ones
salary.  Does anyone know what currency that would have been?

An interesting aside about this is that where Norma [I met her many
years ago and know her as Norma] has "it's a very good position," the
original has "cirkev je vel'mi dobra" [the church is very good].  I
assume this means that it's a rich church.  But why does Timrava use
'cirkev', the general word for church instead of 'kostol,' which she
uses when the narrator says (p.12) that she went to church on Sunday
morning (and came home with cold hands that Somos helped her warm)?  Or
is "ist' do kostola" just a set phrase for "gpoing to church"?  And then
there's the part about "the consecration of the church" (p. 12), where
Timrava uses 'chram,' which means temple.

<<I was under the impression that Esta's family was just like our
protagonist's--pastor/teacher in a village.>>   That was the assumption
I made too, but nowhere does she come right out and say it.  Just out of
curiosity, I typed the name "Krasnovsky" into Google.  A few of the
sites I looked at lead me to believe that Krasnovsky is a Jewish name.
If so, does this mean that state (i.e. secular) and church-run schools
were all part of the same school system?  Or is this totally off the
wall?

Helen



>>> jmm@... 04/30/03 02:09PM >>>
At 11:27 AM 4/30/03 -0400, you wrote:
>I'd like to be 2nd in line to give her a shaking.  I wonder why Somos
>would put up with her.  Was it the prestige of marrying a pastor's
>daughter?  Or was that the only "class" that he was expected to
choose
>from and the pickings were slim?

Not knowing enough about the culture, I'd guess......a combination of
things.  Slim pickings; I think they were pre-disposed to be attracted
to
each other (she certainly was, and he must have known that there was a

daughter in the household); and you know, I don't get the sense that
she
was a bad sort.  Since she is the narrator, we don't get a real
description
of her.  She doesn't moan about not being pretty, so I'll bet she's
attractive; and don't you get a sense that she's a lively and friendly
sort
when she's not trying to jerk this guy's chain?  Since Somos sees right

through her, I think he's seeing right through to something nice.  She
just
needs to grow up a little.

I was wondering where would she have gotten her romantic notions, if
"the
romantic ideal of a love match based on free choice.....was still new
in
central Europe" (intro p. xii).  But then there's Timrava herself,
educated
at home and reading Czech, German, Magyar and Russian.  Who knows,
maybe
Jane Austen was translated into German and made its way into Timrava's

life!  Certainly sounds like there must have been a variety of
literature
available to those with education and the means to obtain books.


>One thing I found kind of curious has to do with her friend Esther.
>It's a Jewish name from the Old Testament.  Would such a name have
been
>given to a Lutheran girl?  Also, there's something in the original
that
>was dropped in the translation.  Esther's "slightly crooked nose" is
"a
>slightly crooked little Jewish nose" in the original.

Dear Helen, kind Helen, you are gonna be so sorry you let us know that
you
have access to the Slovak text!

What an excellent question.  Is it a Jewish nose because Esther is
Jewish,
or is it merely descriptive, as we might characterize a nose as Roman
or
aquiline?  I'd be surprised if Rudinsky would gloss over Esther being
Jewish; but if it's just descriptive, then I could see her leaving it
out
to avoid confusion.  I was under the impression that Esta's family was
just
like our protagonist's--pastor/teacher in a village.

Since you have the Slovak text  :)  the salary is 600 *what* per
year?  Does it say?  I'd be curious to compare it (if possible) to what

Grisak made in the mines in his autobiography, which was at about the
same
time.

Julie Michutka
jmm@...


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I think the pickings were particularly slim in Eastern Slovakia for
Lutherans, regarding eligible marriage partners.

Only about 5% of the population in S~aris~ and Abov were Lutheran, according
to a survey done by the Hungarian government -- it's on that website, Radix
or some such thing.  Looks like the Lutherans were mostly clumped in little
island villages and the few large towns, surrounded by a sea of Roman and
Greek Catholics.

Given the class barriers on top of religioius ones, it probably came down to
a mere handful of single people of suitable age for a Lutheran of the middle
class in Eastern Slovakia.

----- Original Message -----
From: "J. Michutka" <jmm@...>
To: <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] TIMRAVA: class distinctions


> At 11:27 AM 4/30/03 -0400, you wrote:
> >I'd like to be 2nd in line to give her a shaking.  I wonder why Somos
> >would put up with her.  Was it the prestige of marrying a pastor's
> >daughter?  Or was that the only "class" that he was expected to choose
> >from and the pickings were slim?
>
> Not knowing enough about the culture, I'd guess......a combination of
> things.  Slim pickings; I think they were pre-disposed to be attracted to
> each other (she certainly was, and he must have known that there was a
> daughter in the household); and you know, I don't get the sense that she
> was a bad sort.  Since she is the narrator, we don't get a real
description
> of her.  She doesn't moan about not being pretty, so I'll bet she's
> attractive; and don't you get a sense that she's a lively and friendly
sort
> when she's not trying to jerk this guy's chain?  Since Somos sees right
> through her, I think he's seeing right through to something nice.  She
just
> needs to grow up a little.
>
> I was wondering where would she have gotten her romantic notions, if "the
> romantic ideal of a love match based on free choice.....was still new in
> central Europe" (intro p. xii).  But then there's Timrava herself,
educated
> at home and reading Czech, German, Magyar and Russian.  Who knows, maybe
> Jane Austen was translated into German and made its way into Timrava's
> life!  Certainly sounds like there must have been a variety of literature
> available to those with education and the means to obtain books.
>
>
> >One thing I found kind of curious has to do with her friend Esther.
> >It's a Jewish name from the Old Testament.  Would such a name have been
> >given to a Lutheran girl?  Also, there's something in the original that
> >was dropped in the translation.  Esther's "slightly crooked nose" is "a
> >slightly crooked little Jewish nose" in the original.
>
> Dear Helen, kind Helen, you are gonna be so sorry you let us know that you
> have access to the Slovak text!
>
> What an excellent question.  Is it a Jewish nose because Esther is Jewish,
> or is it merely descriptive, as we might characterize a nose as Roman or
> aquiline?  I'd be surprised if Rudinsky would gloss over Esther being
> Jewish; but if it's just descriptive, then I could see her leaving it out
> to avoid confusion.  I was under the impression that Esta's family was
just
> like our protagonist's--pastor/teacher in a village.
>
> Since you have the Slovak text  :)  the salary is 600 *what* per
> year?  Does it say?  I'd be curious to compare it (if possible) to what
> Grisak made in the mines in his autobiography, which was at about the same
> time.
>
> Julie Michutka
> jmm@...
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Slovak-World-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

I don't know why Norma says that Polichno is "in southeast Slovakia,"
when it's about 20 km northwest of Lucenec.  It seems to me that that
would be considered south central Slovakia (Gemer?), where there are a
fair number of Lutherans, no?

Helen



>>> drav@... 04/30/03 04:50PM >>>
I think the pickings were particularly slim in Eastern Slovakia for
Lutherans, regarding eligible marriage partners.

Only about 5% of the population in S~aris~ and Abov were Lutheran,
according
to a survey done by the Hungarian government -- it's on that website,
Radix
or some such thing.  Looks like the Lutherans were mostly clumped in
little
island villages and the few large towns, surrounded by a sea of Roman
and
Greek Catholics.

Given the class barriers on top of religioius ones, it probably came
down to
a mere handful of single people of suitable age for a Lutheran of the
middle
class in Eastern Slovakia.

----- Original Message -----
From: "J. Michutka" <jmm@...>
To: <Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] TIMRAVA: class distinctions


> At 11:27 AM 4/30/03 -0400, you wrote:
> >I'd like to be 2nd in line to give her a shaking.  I wonder why
Somos
> >would put up with her.  Was it the prestige of marrying a pastor's
> >daughter?  Or was that the only "class" that he was expected to
choose
> >from and the pickings were slim?
>
> Not knowing enough about the culture, I'd guess......a combination
of
> things.  Slim pickings; I think they were pre-disposed to be
attracted to
> each other (she certainly was, and he must have known that there was
a
> daughter in the household); and you know, I don't get the sense that
she
> was a bad sort.  Since she is the narrator, we don't get a real
description
> of her.  She doesn't moan about not being pretty, so I'll bet she's
> attractive; and don't you get a sense that she's a lively and
friendly
sort
> when she's not trying to jerk this guy's chain?  Since Somos sees
right
> through her, I think he's seeing right through to something nice.
She
just
> needs to grow up a little.
>
> I was wondering where would she have gotten her romantic notions, if
"the
> romantic ideal of a love match based on free choice.....was still new
in
> central Europe" (intro p. xii).  But then there's Timrava herself,
educated
> at home and reading Czech, German, Magyar and Russian.  Who knows,
maybe
> Jane Austen was translated into German and made its way into
Timrava's
> life!  Certainly sounds like there must have been a variety of
literature
> available to those with education and the means to obtain books.
>
>
> >One thing I found kind of curious has to do with her friend Esther.
> >It's a Jewish name from the Old Testament.  Would such a name have
been
> >given to a Lutheran girl?  Also, there's something in the original
that
> >was dropped in the translation.  Esther's "slightly crooked nose" is
"a
> >slightly crooked little Jewish nose" in the original.
>
> Dear Helen, kind Helen, you are gonna be so sorry you let us know
that you
> have access to the Slovak text!
>
> What an excellent question.  Is it a Jewish nose because Esther is
Jewish,
> or is it merely descriptive, as we might characterize a nose as Roman
or
> aquiline?  I'd be surprised if Rudinsky would gloss over Esther
being
> Jewish; but if it's just descriptive, then I could see her leaving it
out
> to avoid confusion.  I was under the impression that Esta's family
was
just
> like our protagonist's--pastor/teacher in a village.
>
> Since you have the Slovak text  :)  the salary is 600 *what* per
> year?  Does it say?  I'd be curious to compare it (if possible) to
what
> Grisak made in the mines in his autobiography, which was at about the
same
> time.
>
> Julie Michutka
> jmm@...
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Slovak-World-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


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Sorry to be late to class! Oh, dear friends, if you thinks this girl is a crabby
brat, wait till you meet the rest of the books' characters!

Actually, I think she's quite 'introspective' and intended to come off as
precocious. If class divisions were anything like Jane Austin's time, there were
actually a set limit of words that were considered permitted for a proper lady
to speak. I think that might be hindering the author too, as she cannot use the
common street language and maintain her status. Maybe even the Magyar training
might limit it even more. But what I at first thought as undescriptive and
rather stilted might sound better in Slovak and be the in the acceptable
'dialect' of the gentry. There is a decided lack of home spun phrases the
peasants would have used that would have been generations old and perhaps, a tad
on the barnyard side.

But I would truly love to know what actual books the authoress did read. I would
guess Tolstoy would probably loom large still in that part of the world, being
easier to translate than western languages. This little courtship dance seems
very Tolstoy. Vaguely like Prince Andre and little Natasha Rostov. A grown man,
secretly enraptured, dealing with a child-like woman, and she pouting that she
has no control over their courtship!

Growing up a minister's child cannot have been a basically carefree life, always
expected to be living perfection of religious upbringing. And I doubt very many
books would be part of the home's library that were not religious in nature;
sermons, theology, the like. But what I find interesting is the translator
mentions the authoress was half a set of twins. (Yes, Julie, here goes the twins
thing again!!!) Her brother was probably her study mate and closest confidant.
He might have gotten her a more expanded education than the normal daughter. One
for a man who was expected to go out into the world and make a career with that
knowledge. (maybe even allot of it the theology was how awful women were as vain
and sinful !!!! try overcoming that ingrained guilt!!)

Anyway, just having him leave her forever would be hard for a twin. Add to that
he leaves her to use the knowledge they both have learned to make a living, gain
prestige, respect, leadership, while she stays home and listening to her mom how
to be a good housekeeper. Duh. ignorance would have made her life allot easier!
Writing might have been her only outlet, a grasp at self respect (heck she even
changed her name!) and maybe a replacement for her brother's once close
companionship. So there's probably allot of her own experiences and frustrations
written into her works.

But she must have been so very isolated, not close to her sister-unlike Austin
who adored her older sister- and certainly not interested in sewing or
housekeeping. Only serious things would be worthy!! Especially to a minister's
daughter. (Austin's family often put on theatricals! Scandalous! But Austin also
had brothers in the navy who saw war and men dying and punished by the whip-and
probably drunk as well. They were a bit more rounded than the average minister's
family!) Whereas Austin had neighbors of the same class just down the road,
Timara had to neighbors maybe a couple of valleys away! And all she care to talk
about was 'salon gossip', and a pretty show of manners.

But I do love old Kata! Bustling and serving her 'betters' and then putting her
own 'two cents' worth into their elevated conversation! What delightful pearls
of peasant wisdom did she actually say? And was she only there to gather gossip
for the town entertainment! Clearly she felt on equal with her mistress and
acted it, and probably was! Dearly, I wish Timrava had put some dialog in for
her!

So, OK, I've blustered on enough! Is there any English bio of Timrava?

Claudia




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 4/30/03 6:08:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bagin@...
writes:


> I never did find the birthplace of my  grandmother.  Maria Minar.  born
> 6-15-1881.
>

Captain Jack,
This may sound like a dumb question because you have researched quite a bit
but,  have you ever looked at  the church records of the births of the first
children of your grandfather and grandmother here in the States?
is there no mention in the church ledgers of her village of birth in
Slovakia?  As for my  own experience in tracing the past, if not for this
type of record, i would have found none of my grandparents' villages.
Noreen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorry I can't join in the daytime book discussions - - I don't get home
from work until 6, but I wanted to put my 2 cents' worth in!

I note, as Carol did, that unlike the story's narrator, my grandparents'
lives were hard "with little time left for self-indulgence."  My
grandfather was a tailor, having apprenticed in Vienna (he was from
Zelenec~/Linc~ near Trnava).  His parents had some land and some cows.  But
his older brother inherited everything from the parents, since
primogeniture was in effect in Austria-Hungary.  My grandparents didn't
have two servants, for sure.  They were both 25 when they came over in
1906.  They had a much better life here, but ten years later my grandmother
was left a widow with 8 children when my grandfather died of TB.  If she
was sorry that they came over, she never said so.  But she always spoke of
fondness for the old country.  But I digress ...

I agree that the narrator is one spoiled person.  Like Jane Austen, Timrava
is attempting to teach other young ladies, and demonstrating that such
behavior is foolish.  The story closes with the narrator's stating, after
her marriage, "So I begin to oppose him, cooly snap at him, and turn away
from him for up to three weeks at a time."  There is trouble on the way!  I
wish Timrava had constructed a follow-up story showing the couple 10 years
later.  (Perhaps she did, and I just don't know it.)  The narrator has some
likeable qualities that I think would fade as she grows older.  It was
cute, at times, to watch her and Somos~ doing a little "dance" around each
other and pretending to avoid and not be interested.

I'm glad that Helen has the Slovak text to compare for us.  Interesting
that she picked up on the bit about the friend Esther with the "Jewish
nose."  (Perhaps Norma Rudinsky toned down this remark, since it is
inappropriate today.)  I do think Christians and Jews mingled freely,
pre-WW II.  My mother's cousin spoke of a synagogue down the street from
their home in Zavar (also near Trnava), but there was no synagogue when we
visited there in 2000.

Another thought:  a previous discussion thread on Slovak World talked about
past marriage customs in Slovakia and how girls who married outside of
their village were often the less desirable ones.  So, would our story's
narrator have chosen a husband outside the village for class reasons, or
because she had been passed over by others?  Maybe she was older than 17
and her parents thought she was in danger of becoming a spinster?  They
could have been anxious at the thought that their daughter would refuse
Somos~  - - not only for the good salary, but because they might have seen
him as a "last chance."

I loved the little details in the story, such as how they served "three
kinds of strudel, chicken and fruit" when Somos~ came to dinner.  This was
really a way to impress him - - we always had two kinds of cake for
company, but three would have been really special!

As an aside comment on teachers in Slovakia:  about 6-7 years ago, we had a
visiting teacher from Eastern Slovakia here in town.  I was surprised to
learn from her that teachers in Slovakia are paid a uniform salary
throughout the country.  It doesn't matter whether you teach in a big city
or in a small town, your salary is the same.  Does anyone have more
information on the subject?

Barbara Koeller


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Captain Jack,

I found the village of my great grandmother through the Ellis Island
Records, put that name into a Google search and hit the name of the village
today, ordered the LDS records for that village church, and found the
listing of the family.  That started the ball rolling.  When my mother
mentioned that there was a trip going to the Spis area, I jumped at the
chance to take the two of us on an adventure.  As we stood in the church of
our ancestors, my mother said her family was with her.  It was a moment to
treasure forever.

Enjoy!

Mary Westbrook

-----Original Message-----
From: nhasior@... [mailto:nhasior@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 9:38 PM
To: Slovak-World@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Slovak-World] slovakia


In a message dated 4/30/03 6:08:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bagin@...
writes:


> I never did find the birthplace of my  grandmother.  Maria Minar.
> born
> 6-15-1881.
>

Captain Jack,
This may sound like a dumb question because you have researched quite a bit
but,  have you ever looked at  the church records of the births of the first

children of your grandfather and grandmother here in the States? is there no
mention in the church ledgers of her village of birth in
Slovakia?  As for my  own experience in tracing the past, if not for this
type of record, i would have found none of my grandparents' villages.
Noreen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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> the two castes were socially and economically distinct, but then she
> seems to contradict herself there with regard to the economic
> distinction: the peasant caste ranges from "rich farmers" on down, while
> village parsons are part of the intelligentsia but "live meagerly"

The Americans generally identifying social classes with income.  That has
not been the traditional perception in Central Europe.  There, education
was more of a factor in how people saw their society.

A rare sociological survey when a brief relaxation of communist control
allowed it in the late 1960s revealed substantial differences in
lifestyles between the intelligentsia and the laborers, although the range
of salaries in communist Czechoslovakia was among the narrowest in all the
com. countries.  The highest salaries were barely 3x to 4x higher than the
lowest, and the limited supply of goods and services narrowed what people
could do with their money even more.  And since communist ideology favored
the "working class," their pay was as likely to be in the top group, as
those of any other group.  Yet, how the intelligentsia lived (how they
spent their free time, what they had at home), was noticeably different
from the laborers.

The same appears to have been true throughout Central European history.

The minister's family may not have been the richest in the village, but
their lifestyle was different.  His daughter's expectations (and
fantasies) may not have been met by any farmer she knew in the village.
For example, she might have been dreaming of someone who read literature.
In Timrava's _real_ village, most farmers never read any of her short
stories, even after they learned that some of them were actually depicted
in them, and the stories became part of the school curriculum.


> Esther.  It's a Jewish name from the Old Testament.  Would such a name
> have been given to a Lutheran girl?

Esther, and other names from the Old Testament were quite fashionable
among the Slovak Lutherans in the 19th century.


> where would she have gotten her romantic notions, if "the romantic ideal
> of a love match based on free choice.....was still new in central
> Europe"

Surely, infatuation cannot have been new.  Norma probably meant
"marriage."  The intelligentsia was less bent on arranged marriages than
the farmers, and the protagonist's notions of romantic love (just like
Timrava's) would have been shaped by massive reading of trashy, as well as
some better romance novels abundant in German, in Hungarian translations,
by sentimental stories in Slovak periodicals, as well as by Slovak
romantic novels.


> there must have been a variety of literature available to those with
> education and the means to obtain books

The Central European intelligentsia was well read.  An English traveler
had this to say in 1835 (correct: eighteen-35):

      "I have often thought that a glance at the booksellers' shops gives a
      more correct idea of the state of education in a country than the
      most profound disquisitions on its schools and universities.  If my
      notion is correct, Bratislava ought to rank pretty high in literary
      estimation, for in a tour which we made one day through the
      warehouses of five or six of the chief booksellers, we were
      astonished at the number and excellence of the books they contained.
      They were not only rich in Hungarian and German works, but contained
      almost every thing of any great merit published in London and Paris.
      A fair library both of the French and English classics might easily
      be formed in Bratislava.  Of the English standard works, we found
      editions of London, Paris and Leipzig, but chiefly the latter."


> But why does Timrava use 'cirkev', the general word for church instead
> of 'kostol,'

It means that the Lutheran Church is good (to them), not that their parish
is rich.


> Only about 5% of the population in S~aris~ and Abov were Lutheran

The village should be seen as located in south-central Slovakia.  We can
safely assume that practically everyone in Timrava's village was Lutheran.
But regardless, the members of the three Churches were not distributed
evenly.  Even in east Slovakia, you'd get a few predominantly Lutheran
villages.  Statistically that gives us 5% for the whole county, but the
parishioners were actually clustered.


Martin

votruba "at" pitt "dot" edu

Hello all,
I thought the main character a bit arrogant but somewhat understandable being a
child of older parents and not being around to many peers.  I would consider her
part of the intelligentsia and this would probably be explained by her growing
up as a Pastor/Teachers daughter.  I look at some of the socio economic factors
of the time that seem somewhat alien to us today.  One factor is that success
for a woman at the time is to marry to a person of some income and also to the
position (of a teacher).  My grandmother was from Litmanova in North Central
Slovakia  and although she didn't marry until she emigrated to America, I
believe one of her goals was to marry someone who could provide for her.  This
is a very universal theme for many cultures world wide.  This also brings up the
second factor which is the welfare of the parents.  Extended families in the US
are not as common as they are in Europe.  Adding to this is the fact that the
"State" made no provision for people.  Unless you had someone to take care of
you, in this case a daughter and son-in-law, your prospects would be pretty dim.

Her references to her carrying "the rod" into the classroom when she was
teaching but not getting any respect are reflective of how women were treated at
the time.

I wish the main character had been named.  That's the engineer side of me, I
like all the dots connected.

Ken Davis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Im sure it was a moment to treasure and remember forever.  I will have the same
experiances once I am there, for my realatives are planning on taking me to my
grandfathers village so I can see where he came from. Jim

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]