Dr. Aaron Ross just shared his doctoral dissertation with me, and I have had
it uploaded to the Lookstein Center website. Entitled "Motivational issues
in the study of Gemara among American High School senior boys" I thought tht
it might be of interest to the group.

Access it at: http://lookstein.org/articles/motivational_issues.pdf

Shalom

Rabbi Shalom Z. Berger, Ed.D.
The Lookstein Center for Jewish Education
Bar-Ilan University
http://www.lookstein.org
Blogging at http://schmoozed.lookstein.org

NETWORK*LEARN*GROW

Seeking a Talmud Curriculum for Adults

The Jewish Community Center in Houston is trying to develop a Talmud course
that would use either the original text or the Steinsaltz Hebrew text as the
basis for a class.  We are seeking a structure to the class that would
probably meet once a week.  Considering the anticipated learners, we could
probably use a modified Talmud curriculum for a Jewish Day School.  Any
support would be appreciated.  Please contact Jonathan Fass at
jfass@....


Thank You,

Jonathan Fass
Director, Department of Jewish Living and Learning
Jewish Community Center of Houston
5601 S. Braeswood Blvd.
Houston, TX  77096
Phone: (713) 729-3200 Ext. 3257
Fax:    (713) 551-7223
www.jcchouston.org

A few Talmud questions have come in to Lookjed, and I thought that some of you
may want to respond.



Here's one -





From: hillelandsima@...
To: lookjed@...
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 7:38 PM

I'm looking for suggestions for a class that I'm teaching. The students are
bright  7th - 10th grade kids from strong Conservative backgrounds who attend
public school and come - voluntarily - to a 2 hour, learning program once a
week.



The class is entitled 'A Taste of Talmud' and, as its name implies, is meant to
be a survey type course to give the kids a little exposure to Gemara. The class
runs for 45 minutes and I provide the students with a handout each week with a
small section of Gemara in translation. We read and analyse the text as in any
Gemara shiur. For the first few weeks of the class I chose selections from Rosh
Hashan, Yoma and Succah. Now I am looking for suggestions for other sugyot that
are a) self-contained and can be 'covered' in one (or two) sessions and, b) are
interesting / relevant to kids of this age. Thanks for your help.



Hillel Lichtman


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In addition to the two vectors that Aaron Ross mentions, there is a third that
is eloquently developed in Yael unterman's recent book Nehama Leibowitz: Teacher
and Bible Scholar, re educational goals, pp. 203-5, "love of Tora." The author
emphasizes how Nehama explicitly and repeatedly stressed this goal throughout
her long and distinguished career. I don't think it is sufficient to speak about
different ages, outward stresses, etc. Wiyjout also considering what sort of
text will have the greatest impact with regard to life-long Tora learning. I am
not sure of the answer, and perhaps it varies from grade to grade and student to
student. Nevertheless this goal has to play a role in the deliberation if Talmud
teaching is to be properly and responsibly carried out. Cynthia Ozick, in The
Cannibal Galaxy, a novella about an MO day school informed by her daughter's
experiences, provocatively writes, "With the love of learning comes the love of
those who learn. In the absence of the love of learning, there can only be
self-love."
Jack Bieler
Silver Spring, MD
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron Ross <aaronshalom@...>

Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 09:30:10
To: <Shaqla_VeTarya@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Shaqla_VeTarya] Query - Artscroll gemara


To answer Rabbi Goldmintz's question without actually answering it...

I work very hard to avoid having my students think that I am
anti-artscroll.  I do not allow it in class (8th grade advanced level), but
I tell the students that I know that I cannot stop them from using it at
home.  My main message is that Artscroll was not created for students at the
beginning of their learning, it was intended more for those people who
cannot simply breeze through a daf and not longer have several hours a day
to learn (a position stated by Nosson Scherman himself to the NYTimes on
March 1, 2005 - an article written on the day of the last Siyum HaShas and
the completion of the Artscroll gemara).  I press the point that the goal of
their learning now is to acquire the skills necessary for learning, and that
my goal is for the students to never need an Artscroll as anything more than
a really good dictionary (good in the sense of being able to translate an
entire line - very valuable for aggadata).

I realize that in high school things may be different - students may be more
frustrated at the fact that after five years they still do not have solid
skills, and their overpressured schedules certainly leads to the search for
shortcuts.  While that may all lead to being a bit more permissive about the
use of Artscroll outside of the classroom, it certainly remains feasible to
ask the students to press on in class itself without the use of the aid.

Of course, this gets into the issue of what is the goal of teaching Gemara
at each level.  Is the goal in high school to continue to teach skills or is
it to get across the content, lomdus, values, etc.?  I personally believe
that, if we want our students to continue learning beyond high school, we
need to equip them with the proper skills that they need in order to do so.
If however, the text is simply a springboard for broader and deeper
discussions, then Artscroll is a wonderful way to take care of the text
efficiently so as to move on to the meat of the lesson.  But I suppose that
this is a different discussion...

Kol tuv,
Aaron Ross

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 3:49 AM, Shalom Berger <lookjed@...>wrote:

>
>
> With the summer upon us, I thought that Talmud teachers might want to
> discuss this question (see below).
>
> Shalom
>
> Rabbi Shalom Z. Berger, Ed.D.
> The Lookstein Center for Jewish Education
> Bar-Ilan University
> http://www.lookstein.org
> Blogging at http://schmoozed.lookstein.org
>
> NETWORK*LEARN*GROW
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jay Goldmintz, Rabbi
> To: lookjed@... <lookjed%40mail.biu.ac.il>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 11:18 PM
> Subject: Query - Artscroll gemara
>
> Has anyone embraced using an Artscroll gemara in otherwise traditional
> gemara classes? Has it changed one's goals for teaching gemara? Has it
> changed what one teaches or how one teaches?
>
> Sincere thanks,
>
> Jay Goldmintz
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

To answer Rabbi Goldmintz's question without actually answering it...

I work very hard to avoid having my students think that I am
anti-artscroll.  I do not allow it in class (8th grade advanced level), but
I tell the students that I know that I cannot stop them from using it at
home.  My main message is that Artscroll was not created for students at the
beginning of their learning, it was intended more for those people who
cannot simply breeze through a daf and not longer have several hours a day
to learn (a position stated by Nosson Scherman himself to the NYTimes on
March 1, 2005 - an article written on the day of the last Siyum HaShas and
the completion of the Artscroll gemara).  I press the point that the goal of
their learning now is to acquire the skills necessary for learning, and that
my goal is for the students to never need an Artscroll as anything more than
a really good dictionary (good in the sense of being able to translate an
entire line - very valuable for aggadata).

I realize that in high school things may be different - students may be more
frustrated at the fact that after five years they still do not have solid
skills, and their overpressured schedules certainly leads to the search for
shortcuts.  While that may all lead to being a bit more permissive about the
use of Artscroll outside of the classroom, it certainly remains feasible to
ask the students to press on in class itself without the use of the aid.

Of course, this gets into the issue of what is the goal of teaching Gemara
at each level.  Is the goal in high school to continue to teach skills or is
it to get across the content, lomdus, values, etc.?  I personally believe
that, if we want our students to continue learning beyond high school, we
need to equip them with the proper skills that they need in order to do so.
If however, the text is simply a springboard for broader and deeper
discussions, then Artscroll is a wonderful way to take care of the text
efficiently so as to move on to the meat of the lesson.  But I suppose that
this is a different discussion...

Kol tuv,
Aaron Ross

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 3:49 AM, Shalom Berger <lookjed@...>wrote:

>
>
> With the summer upon us, I thought that Talmud teachers might want to
> discuss this question (see below).
>
> Shalom
>
> Rabbi Shalom Z. Berger, Ed.D.
> The Lookstein Center for Jewish Education
> Bar-Ilan University
> http://www.lookstein.org
> Blogging at http://schmoozed.lookstein.org
>
> NETWORK*LEARN*GROW
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jay Goldmintz, Rabbi
> To: lookjed@... <lookjed%40mail.biu.ac.il>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 11:18 PM
> Subject: Query - Artscroll gemara
>
> Has anyone embraced using an Artscroll gemara in otherwise traditional
> gemara classes? Has it changed one's goals for teaching gemara? Has it
> changed what one teaches or how one teaches?
>
> Sincere thanks,
>
> Jay Goldmintz
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shaqla_VeTarya@yahoogroups.com writes:
>I am looking for a collection of Gemara sugyas that have similar
>structures. I feel that this is the best way to begin familiarizing
>students with the basics of the flow and logic of Gemara. I would like
>a few different sugya structures that I could teach.

Yair,
I strongly encourage this approach. In our advanced class for sophomores,
taught by Rav Aryeh Klapper, we choose the primary text thematically, and
then Rav Aryeh uses the Shu"T database to find sugyot that use the same
technical terms. The secondary sugyot don't need to be explored deeply;
all you need is to make sure that the students can functionally identify
what each part is doing. I prefer

You don't need to have access to the Shu"T database, although it helps.
You can do direct searches from Mikranet or Mechon-Mamre. I am currently
working on an orientation to Web-based tools for my students that will
require them to install Aaron Sarna's Sifrei Kodesh search add-on for
Firefox (which uses the Google API on the mechon-mamre site. Once that has
been done, I will hopefully have my ninth grade students using it to look
up
1. parallel sugyot
2. parallel use of technical terms (which is what you need)
3. references to the Mishneh Torah

Unfortunately, you can't use proximity searching or directional searching
like you can with Shu"T. But it isn't bad.
If you just use Google site search at Mechon Mamre and  search for "mativ"
and "ela amar" you'll come up with a bunch of sugyot that have a roughly
parallel structure.

Biv'rakhah,
Jeff
_________________________________________________
** Unanswered questions are far less dangerous than unquestioned answers**

Jeffrey Spitzer            "Take risks to learn, take time to teach"
This message may
Chair, Dept. of Talmud and Rabbinics
         be forwarded
Gann Academy, The New Jewish High School
without seeking
333 Forest St
                     permission.
Waltham, MA 02452
781-642-6800
jspitzer@...
www.gannacademy.org





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I thought that some of you might have suggestions for Yair (see below).

Kayitz tov,
Shalom


Posted by: Yair Daar  <ydaar@...>
Date: July 08, 2009 04:45PM
Subject: Gemara Curriculum

I am looking for a collection of Gemara sugyas that have similar
structures. I feel that this is the best way to begin familiarizing
students with the basics of the flow and logic of Gemara. I would like
a few different sugya structures that I could teach.

Does anybody know of any textbooks, workbooks, or lists that would be helpful?

Thanks.

With the summer upon us, I thought that Talmud teachers might want to discuss
this question (see below).

Shalom

Rabbi Shalom Z. Berger, Ed.D.
The Lookstein Center for Jewish Education
Bar-Ilan University
http://www.lookstein.org
Blogging at http://schmoozed.lookstein.org

NETWORK*LEARN*GROW

----- Original Message -----
From: Jay Goldmintz, Rabbi
To: lookjed@...
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 11:18 PM
Subject: Query - Artscroll gemara


Has anyone embraced using an Artscroll gemara in otherwise traditional gemara
classes? Has it changed one's goals for teaching gemara? Has it changed what one
teaches or how one teaches?



Sincere thanks,

Jay Goldmintz




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

FYII thought that this would be of interest to the group.

Kol Tuv,
Shalom

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Moshe Yeres <myeres@...>
Date: Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 6:07 AM
Subject: New Online Talmud – Tzurot hadaf with OCR – of interest for Talmud
educators
To: lookjed@...

*New Online Talmud – Tzurot hadaf with OCR – of interest for Talmud
educators*
Full Talmud Tzurot hadaf with OCR scanning of all text is now available at
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/shas  . While the full text of the Shas has been
available until now as either jpg graphics at e-daf http://www.e-daf.com  or
as text format at snunit http://kodesh.snunit.k12.il/b/l/l0.htm  and machon
mamre  http://www.mechon-mamre.org/b/l/l0.htm , this is first time the full
Shas is available in a tzurot hadaf form which is actually scanned in OCR
text. For the Talmud educator, this means that a full clear tzurot hadaf of
Vilna page of Talmud can be projected on a screen (or smartboard) to class
in a form which they can relate to (Vilna Shas page). The teacher can then
block and copy parts of text into Word for further class analysis and
example. This can be done for any text found on the daf including
commentaries, mesoret hashas etc. It seems like this should be a helpful and
easily accessible tool for educators teaching Talmud. More about this online
Shas and its features at
http://blog.hebrewbooks.org/2009/06/new-shas-section-on-our-website.html .

Rabbi Dr. Moshe J. Yeres
Vice Principal for Jewish Studies
TanenbaumCHAT - Kimel Campus
Email: myeres@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The top of Eruvin 79a- Rav Huna tries to explain a discrepancy between two
Mishnayot by explaining than one of them is Rav Yossi's-not accepted-view,  The
Gemara goes on to say that the opposite is true- Rav Yossi is the view of the
other Mishanyot.  Ayin Sham. 
 
  Tosfot explains that Rav Huna, here and in Yoma 14a, quotes Rav Yosi because
he knows he discusses somthing on the topic, but was not sure what!!! 
According to this, Rav Huna quotes Braitot without knowing the content!
 
1.  See the gemara for the whole picute
2.  Can anyone bring anoter example of this?
3.  How does this work with our understanding of the Bablonina Beit Midrash?

--- On Tue, 3/10/09, Shalom Berger <lookjed@...> wrote:

From: Shalom Berger <lookjed@...>
Subject: [Shaqla_VeTarya] Fw: Teaching Talmud to non-Talmud students –
textbook?
To: Shaqla_VeTarya@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 4:34 PM

I thought that some of you on Shaqla ve_Tarya might have a suggestion for Rabbi
Yeres.

Purim Sameach!
Shalom

Rabbi Shalom Z. Berger, Ed.D.
The Lookstein Center for Jewish Education
Bar-Ilan University
http://www.lookstein.org
Blogging at http://schmoozed.lookstein.org

NETWORK*LEARN*GROW

----- Original Message -----
From: Moshe Yeres
To: lookjed@...
Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 10:03 PM
Subject: Teaching Talmud to non-Talmud students – textbook?


Teaching Talmud to non-Talmud students – textbook?

We  are looking for a student textbook and/or workbook for a Talmud class (3
hours per week) for senior students who have not studied Talmud intensively
before in High School. Book should present Hebrew (Aramaic) Talmud text but
should use English as language of instruction. Book could focus on a particular
perek or contain excerpts from different tractates of Talmud Bavli. Suggestions
on or off list would be appreciated.

Rabbi Dr. Moshe J. Yeres
Vice Principal for Jewish Studies
TanenbaumCHAT - Kimel Campus
Email: myeres@...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I thought that some of you on Shaqla ve_Tarya might have a suggestion for Rabbi
Yeres.

Purim Sameach!
Shalom

Rabbi Shalom Z. Berger, Ed.D.
The Lookstein Center for Jewish Education
Bar-Ilan University
http://www.lookstein.org
Blogging at http://schmoozed.lookstein.org

NETWORK*LEARN*GROW

----- Original Message -----
From: Moshe Yeres
To: lookjed@...
Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 10:03 PM
Subject: Teaching Talmud to non-Talmud students – textbook?


Teaching Talmud to non-Talmud students – textbook?

We  are looking for a student textbook and/or workbook for a Talmud class (3
hours per week) for senior students who have not studied Talmud intensively
before in High School. Book should present Hebrew (Aramaic) Talmud text but
should use English as language of instruction. Book could focus on a particular
perek or contain excerpts from different tractates of Talmud Bavli. Suggestions
on or off list would be appreciated.

Rabbi Dr. Moshe J. Yeres
Vice Principal for Jewish Studies
TanenbaumCHAT - Kimel Campus
Email: myeres@...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hi shalom! can you please forward me david katz's email address from the most
recent list.   thanks so much, joe schwarz




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

thank you!!

--- On Sun, 2/8/09, Shalom Berger <lookjed@...> wrote:

From: Shalom Berger <lookjed@...>
Subject: [Shaqla_VeTarya] Kirah - Baking on Shabbat
To: Shaqla_VeTarya@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, February 8, 2009, 3:38 AM

From: Jeffrey Kuperman rabbikuperman@...
To: Shalom Berger
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 5:55 PM
Subject: Baking on Shabbat

In the New York Times today (Feb. 6, 2009), there was an obituary for Alan
Scott, the man who revived the use of artisanal brick ovens. There is a very
good description of how ancient ovens work, which might be useful to anyone
teaching Hilchot Shabbat.

"In most brick ovens, a wood fire is built directly on the hearth floor.
When it dies down, the ashes are swept out and food is put in to bake in the
radiant heat — far higher than the usual 500 degrees Fahrenheit of a regular
oven and sometimes up to 800 degrees. The walls hold the heat for hours,
allowing batch after batch of bread to bake."


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Jeffrey Kuperman rabbikuperman@...
To: Shalom Berger
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 5:55 PM
Subject: Baking on Shabbat

In the New York Times today (Feb. 6, 2009), there was an obituary for Alan
Scott, the man who revived the use of artisanal brick ovens. There is a very
good description of how ancient ovens work, which might be useful to anyone
teaching Hilchot Shabbat.

"In most brick ovens, a wood fire is built directly on the hearth floor. When it
dies down, the ashes are swept out and food is put in to bake in the radiant
heat — far higher than the usual 500 degrees Fahrenheit of a regular oven and
sometimes up to 800 degrees. The walls hold the heat for hours, allowing batch
after batch of bread to bake."


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Rav Shalom,

To pick up on the tangential point, namely the issue of whether or not a
teacher should raise the possibility of halacha being unjust or illogical...

As with many things in education, it is my impression that it all depends on
the teacher.  If the teacher is willing to *conclude* that the halacha is
unjust or illogical, and thus allow students to leave class in a state of
confusion or, even worse, despair about the halachic system that they are
supposed to be living under, then I would certainly have a problem with that
approach.

However, if the teacher raises such a possibility either for the purpose of
heightening the tension inherent in a particular sugya, or for the purpose
of heading off the inevitable questions of the students (who are sharp
enough to spot unfairness) - all with either the goal of showing how,
despite appearances, there actually is some logic to the halacha or with the
goal of teaching humility before the law, i.e. sometimes there is a law that
completely confounds us and yet we do not throw out our fidelity to the
system as a whole as a result of one point that we are incapable of
grasping, then I believe that such a teacher and such a class is not only
acceptable, but perhaps even desirable.

Aaron Ross

On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 5:20 AM, Shalom Berger <lookjed@...>wrote:

>   For those of you who do not follow the main Lookjed discussion, I am
> posting two replies to the talyuhu v'zavin query that appeared (see below).
>
> I will also mention that I have received an off-list comment on this
> discussion questioning whether it is appropriate for a Gemara Rebbe to allow
> a discussion in class that accepts the assumption that a halacha is either
> unjust or illogical, since that suggests a willingness to accept the
> possibility that halacha is flawed.
>
> I would be pleased if someone would be willing to respond to that comment
> (I did off-list, but would like to hear what others think).
>
> Kol Tuv,
>
> Shalom
>
> Rabbi Shalom Z. Berger, Ed.D.
> The Lookstein Center for Jewish Education
> Bar-Ilan University
> http://www.lookstein.org
> Blogging at http://schmoozed.lookstein.org
>
> Re: The Talmud's view on a sale made under duress new
> Posted by: Moshe Shoshan
(CBL217-132-202-51.bb.netvision.net.il<http://cbl217-132-202-51.bb.netvision.net\
.il/>
> )
> Date: December 13, 2008 01:57PM
>
> With regard to the din of talyuhu v'zavin, I would note two things.
>
> First it is not the only example of unethical behavior leading to a
> legitimate transfer of ownership. Kinyan gezayla (when someone who steals an
> object is considered its owner with regard to certain halakhot) is a similar
> situation. Chazal don't seem to assume an ethical linkage in such situations
>
>
> Second through this ruling Chazal are making a fundamental observation
> about transactions which is at odds with our modern capitalistic experience
> and world view. We assume that people want to sell good and services to
> benefit themselves and the entire economy. In such a situation it is easy to
> make a blanket ruling voiding all sales under duress. In Chazal's world and
> worldview, good were scarce and people were not fundamentally driven by
> profit margins. if all sales are thus under duress, it becomes far more
> difficult to distinguish between valid duress and void duress. Through their
> ruling chazal call attention to the distress which all sellers, in their
> view, find themselves. This is an important moral stand that they are taking
>
> Re: The Talmud's view on a sale made under duress new
> Posted by: Yair Kahn (89-139-60-121.bb.netvision.net.il)
> Date: December 14, 2008 01:45PM
>
> Dear Shalom,
>
> Regarding the issue of talyuhu vizavin (when a person is coerced to agree
> to a sale), the discomfort with this halacha is based on an assumption that
> the validity and legality of any given transaction is also a function of
> ethical sanction.
>
> If we challenge this premise, then we have to question the validity of the
> transaction only from a legal perspective. Accordingly, the question of daat
> (literally "knowledge" - does the individual knowingly agree to the sale) is
> the only relevant issue at stake. Regarding this, the gemara concludes that
> daat, even if it resulted from a threat, is legally considered daat. This is
> certainly a valid legal position, which in no way condones the moral moment
> of the transaction. As a matter of fact, in the sister sugya of talyuhu
> vikadish (where someone is forced to agree to marry), the gemara is explicit
> that the mekadesh (the man who forces a woman to marry him) is acting out of
> line, but nonetheless, according to Torah law, the kiddushin takes effect.
>
> Of course, there are instances where ethics affects legality. When ona'ah
> (overcharging or undercharging) is too pronounced, the sale can be
> nullified. There are cases where we apply the rule of kofin al midat Sdom
> (where we force someone to allow use of his property if he suffers no loss
> or damage from the use). However, in general, these are the exceptions.
>
> The distinction between the legal area and the area of issur viheter, finds
> expression in other areas of halacha as well. Aside from arayot (incestuous
> relationships), kiddushin with a woman who is prohibited is binding.
> Similarly, a get (a divorce) given without the required justification, is
> valid, to mention a few examples.
>
> bvracha,
> Rav Yair Kahn
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

For those of you who do not follow the main Lookjed discussion, I am posting two
replies to the talyuhu v'zavin query that appeared (see below).

I will also mention that I have received an off-list comment on this discussion
questioning whether it is appropriate for a Gemara Rebbe to allow a discussion
in class that accepts the assumption that a halacha is either unjust or
illogical, since that suggests a willingness to accept the possibility that
halacha is flawed.

I would be pleased if someone would be willing to respond to that comment (I did
off-list, but would like to hear what others think).

Kol Tuv,

Shalom

Rabbi Shalom Z. Berger, Ed.D.
The Lookstein Center for Jewish Education
Bar-Ilan University
http://www.lookstein.org
Blogging at http://schmoozed.lookstein.org


Re: The Talmud's view on a sale made under duress new
Posted by: Moshe Shoshan (CBL217-132-202-51.bb.netvision.net.il)
Date: December 13, 2008 01:57PM


With regard to the din of talyuhu v'zavin, I would note two things.

First it is not the only example of unethical behavior leading to a legitimate
transfer of ownership. Kinyan gezayla (when someone who steals an object is
considered its owner with regard to certain halakhot) is a similar situation.
Chazal don't seem to assume an ethical linkage in such situations

Second through this ruling Chazal are making a fundamental observation about
transactions which is at odds with our modern capitalistic experience and world
view. We assume that people want to sell good and services to benefit themselves
and the entire economy. In such a situation it is easy to make a blanket ruling
voiding all sales under duress. In Chazal's world and worldview, good were
scarce and people were not fundamentally driven by profit margins. if all sales
are thus under duress, it becomes far more difficult to distinguish between
valid duress and void duress. Through their ruling chazal call attention to the
distress which all sellers, in their view, find themselves. This is an important
moral stand that they are taking



Re: The Talmud's view on a sale made under duress new
Posted by: Yair Kahn (89-139-60-121.bb.netvision.net.il)
Date: December 14, 2008 01:45PM


Dear Shalom,

Regarding the issue of talyuhu vizavin (when a person is coerced to agree to a
sale), the discomfort with this halacha is based on an assumption that the
validity and legality of any given transaction is also a function of ethical
sanction.

If we challenge this premise, then we have to question the validity of the
transaction only from a legal perspective. Accordingly, the question of daat
(literally "knowledge" - does the individual knowingly agree to the sale) is the
only relevant issue at stake. Regarding this, the gemara concludes that daat,
even if it resulted from a threat, is legally considered daat. This is certainly
a valid legal position, which in no way condones the moral moment of the
transaction. As a matter of fact, in the sister sugya of talyuhu vikadish (where
someone is forced to agree to marry), the gemara is explicit that the mekadesh
(the man who forces a woman to marry him) is acting out of line, but
nonetheless, according to Torah law, the kiddushin takes effect.

Of course, there are instances where ethics affects legality. When ona'ah
(overcharging or undercharging) is too pronounced, the sale can be nullified.
There are cases where we apply the rule of kofin al midat Sdom (where we force
someone to allow use of his property if he suffers no loss or damage from the
use). However, in general, these are the exceptions.

The distinction between the legal area and the area of issur viheter, finds
expression in other areas of halacha as well. Aside from arayot (incestuous
relationships), kiddushin with a woman who is prohibited is binding. Similarly,
a get (a divorce) given without the required justification, is valid, to mention
a few examples.

bvracha,
Rav Yair Kahn


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I almost fell off my chair when I read this note.
 
My father (Rabbi Yosef Wolicki) and I were discussing exactly this matter a few
hours before I opened my email to see this posting. I'm still a bit shocked by
the coincidence.
 
Here's what we came up with:
 
The scenario of "talyuhu vezavin" - i.e. forced sales includes cases such as a
situation when A offers B a large sum of money for an item that B had no
intention of selling. Since the sum is so much more than the item's market
value, B feels forced to sell even though he never really wanted to sell the
item. In such a case, A is called a "chamsan".
 
In other words, many forms of duress - both psychological and physical - are
included in the term "talyuhu vezavin".
 
In light of the above there would be an unmanageable situation halachically if
the sale in these cases was invalid; i.e. where to draw the line.
 
For example: A asks me to sell an object. He offers me a price. I say yes. Later
I have remorse. I go to court and say that I never really wanted to sell it.
What now? Do we overturn the sale based on my claim?
 
This is one of many examples of a seemingly unjust or illogical halacha in the
Gemara that exists as a result of the alternative slippery slope. (If anyone
wants another example of this phenomenon I'd be happy to oblige.)
 
This is the best that my father and I could come up with so far.
 
Reactions are desired and welcome.
 
Pesach
 
 
Rabbi Pesach Wolicki
Rosh Yeshiva
Yeshivat Yesodei HaTorah
011-972-2-992-3099
www.yesodei.org

 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Things have been pretty quiet on the Talmud discussion front of late, but the
following question just appeared ion my inbox.

Any suggestions?

Kol Tuv,
Shalom

Rabbi Shalom Z. Berger, Ed.D.
The Lookstein Center for Jewish Education
Bar-Ilan University

<<
One of my students is very troubled by the halacha that "talyuhu vezavin zvinei
zvini" - a sale under duress is legally binding. Honestly it seems like an odd
rule to me too.

I mentioned to him that talyuhu vezavin violates lo tachmod, according to the
rambam's definition, that lo tachmod prohibits taking action to make someone
sell something they would rather keep. But even so, the sale is still valid. The
very validity of the sale, even if the behavior is prohibited, seems surprising.

Does anyone know a philosophical/moral explanation of this rule, beyond the
gemara's assertion that all sales are a result of some pressure, and if they are
valid, even those under great duress are valid too?


Thanks,
Aharon Frazer
raf@...
http://www.orachmishor.org
>>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Shalom,
I would like to take the conversation started by Larry Kobrin in a  different
direction. What I have been thinking about is how the thinking process  that
takes place in educational contexts is being altered as we move from a book
culture to one that places greatest emphasis upon interactive electronic
modalities. When one engages in a Sefer or in words printed on individual pieces
of paper, what is the impression that is made upon the learner, and how does
the  teacher approach the material, in contrast to when people are working with
screens, with data collections, with search engines, with the means by which
a  page can be rearranged, fonts changed, portions highlighted, associations
made  with ease, etc.? Is there room for a combination of approaches, combining
the  classical with the technologically modern, or has the train left the
station,  and unless teaching methods and delivery systems are completely
updated,  students will have difficulty relating, being engaged. You have a
similar
phenomenon in secular studies, certainly on the college campus, but even on
lower levels, where unless one makes powerpoint presentations, uses smart
boards, etc., students will have difficulty relating to the material--or will
they? If this is true, what percentage of teachers have not come up to
technological speed and/or are unattuned to stay abreast of these developments? 
It is
so difficult to find teachers who are competent and qualified--will this  be
an additional disqualification thereby rendering the teacher pool that much
more limited? To what extent is this generational, in the sense that older
teachers, who might have more reluctance/resistance to adopt these methods will
be deemed irrelevant, regardless of their skills or knowledge? As a shul Rabbi,
  I have been pondering of late the dilemma of the means by which we pray,
particularly on Shabbat. While technological possibilities might be available
during the week, on Shabbat they clearly are not. What chance do we have of
making Tefilla meaningful in an Orthodox setting when we hand people who  are
used to very engaging visual experiences, a book which essentially has black
lettering on white paper? Will people be able to put their learning styles on
hold as they revert back to a more prosaic manner of reading and thinking on
Shabbat and Yom Tov? I remember that R. C.Y. Goldvicht, ZaTzaL, founding  Rosh
Yeshiva of Kerem B'Yavneh told us 40+ years ago that once upon a time,  people
relied on their memories, whereas now we were accustomed to rely on our
libraries and reference volumes. How might he have revised his statement  today,
if at all? I know that I am struck by the different styles of Shiur
preparation that I experience preparing during the week when I have CD ROMS  and
the
internet available, in contrast to on Shabbat, when I much more have to  rely on
my memory and library. I would like to hear if others have  reflected upon
these developments, and what insights they might have when  thinking about how
our culture is changing around us.
Jack Bieler
Silver Spring, MD


In a message dated 8/13/2008 4:15:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
lookjed@... writes:

But of  course. Here is a preview of what has come in so far:

V. Google, the  Internet, and education

From: "Rabbi Pinchas Hayman"  <bonayich@...>
To: "Shalom Berger"  <szberger@...>
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 12:08  AM
Subject: Re: Talmud and the Internet

Dear Shalom,

Rabbi  Berman is no doubt correct about the very important role of the
authors of  the Shakla V'Tarya of the sugya, and that they are, on the whole,
later  than the Amoraim.  However, it is a complete illusion to claim  that
this is "academic methodology".  The knowledge that one should  clearly
distinguish between the Amoraim and the Stama D'Talmuda was obvious  to all
the Rishonim and Acharonim, and the academicians are, at most,  filling in
small lacunae here and there.

Our program for the  teaching of Gemara Skills, V'Dibarta Bam, is predicated
on this approach of  the Rishonim, and gives students in Grades 7 and 8 basic
training in  reflective strategization of sugya learning.  This includes:
- full awareness of the Amoraim and their Batei Midrash
- the nature, form and function of each type of Memra
- the patterns of Amoraic sugyot as they developed over the  Amoraic
period
- the existence, identification and roles  of the Stama D'Talmuda in
these sugyot
- the language,  terminology and argumentation patterns of the Stama
D'Talmuda
- introduction to the Gaonim and the Rishonim, including their  awareness
and use of the above

I would be pleased to share our  program with Rabbi Berman, and with all
other educators who are, like him,  sincerely interested in the betterment of
Talmud learning through accurate  skills which flow from the original Masorah
of Am Yisrael!

Pinchas  Hayman

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted  by: Jeffrey Spitzer jspitzer@...
Date: August 07, 2008  11:57PM
Re: Google, the Internet, and education

In response to Scot  Berman's question about awareness of the stamma
d'gemara in high school  pedagogy:

At Gann Academy, we train our ninth graders studying Talmud  to be
attuned to the use of technical terminology of the stam, and by  the
end of 9th grade, students develop a pretty decent facility  in
highlighting the gemara according to its four layers. They continue  to
use these tools throughout High School.

More significantly, the  nature of the editing of the gemara is the
MAIN topic of study, at least in  my class. Students in my class write
two significant papers during the  third trimester on how they imagine
the stam's activity: what kinds of  sources might the stam have had in
front of him before he constructed the  sugya as we have it, how did
the stam use and modify sources either  directly or by selective
quotation or by recontextualization, can we  identify the stam's own
position as we navigate between the different  voices speaking through
the text?

The reason why we do this is  because in our pluralistic school, a
reading of the Talmud as a source of  halakhah speaks to only some of
the students. But AlLL of the students are  in the process of receiving
a tradition, processing a tradition, and  expressing their own
conception and their own narrative of that tradition.  In effect, our
students are editors of their own Jewish identities. As  such, the most
powerful "character" in the Talmud is the editor.

I  understand that the work of the stam took place over many
generations, and  I am also aware that some believe that the stam
developed during the  Amoraic period and not at its end (although I
don't find this persuasive).  Even so, I am comfortable with the
simplification and the conceit that the  Talmud was edited by a single
hand. My students know it is a "shorthand"  when I call the stam a
"he", but it is a worthwhile one. My students relate  to the editor.
They see the challenges created by conflicts between  faithfulness to a
tradition, intellectual honesty, and moral intuition as  their own
challenges.

I don't buy into all of the fetishistic  technical prowess of the
Revadim program. Students in high school just  don't need to know all
of what Revadim considers to be significant. What  students do need to
know is that:
1) while the later layers of the  gemara may indeed be explaining the
actual meaning of an earlier text, the  later layers may also be
speaking with new and creative voices
2)  comparative work with different versions of texts from the Tosefta,
the  Yerushalmi or parallels in the Bavli can help one figure out what
might  have gone into producing a sugya
3) the editors of the Bavli had a variety  of different concerns in
putting together the sugyot as we have them, and  we need to figure out
what criteria we use to determine what is a possible  reading and what
is a likely reading.

I explored much of this in the  paper I wrote for the Rabbinics
conference at Brandeis, using examples from  student work.

I feel a little weird dropping this in to the discussion:  I won't be
online for the next week as I take my one week of vacation  this
summer. I'll try to respond to questions and challenges then (I'm  sure
Pinchas Hayman will want to pull apart my critique of  Revadim--I'm
eager to hear his rationale for why he thinks average students  need to
memorize generations of Tannaim and  Amoraim).

B'vrakhah,
Jeffrey Spitzer
Chair, Department of  Rabbinic Literature
Gann Academy, Waltham,  MA

----------------------------------------------------

From:  Zvi Leshem juliezvi@...
To: lookjed@...
Sent:  Monday, August 11, 2008 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: Talmud and the  Internet

Shalom,

Regarding the issues that Rabbi Scot Berman  raises regarding the
Stamaim and their use in education, I would make the  following brief
points.
1: For the latest in Prof. Rav Halivni's  research and theories, see
his lengthy introduction to Mekorot u'Mesorot:  Baba Batra, Magnes
Press, Jerusalem 5768.
2: While I personally find Rav  Halivni's theories regarding the
lateness of the Stamaim and their decisive  role in shaping the
discourse of the Bavli very convincing, I am not sure  that they are as
widely accepted in academic research as Rabbi Berman  assumes.  It
seems to me that there is still quite a bit of  controversy, especially
on the details.
3: Regarding the discussion of  the Stamaim in an educational setting,
this touches upon a very complex  pedagogic issue even for the educator
who accepts the theory as  historically and theologically sound.  I
wish to reiterate what I  wrote to this list several years ago when Rav
Dr. Pinchas Hyman's "Shitat  haRovadim" as an educational method was
being debated.  Many years ago  Rav Halivni told me (I must admit that
we have not discussed this recently)  that Talmud Criticism was an
appropriate method for only advanced Talmud  students ("those who can
easily read through the Milchamot and the Baal  HaMaor" - which I
suspect would exclude a lot of us).  While Talmud  Criticism is an
important tool, let's face it, it can be pretty  tedious.  It still
seems to me that this is not the way to "turn on"  high school students
to learning Gemara.  Does that mean that the  Stamaim can't be
mentioned?  Of course not.  It is certainly  relevant to discuss the
issue in an "Intro. to Toshba" class etc.  I  wouldn't however jump
from there to dissecting suggyot in shiur.
4: It  is worth taking note of Rav Shagar zt"l's method of combining
classical  lumdos with Talmudic Research.  A book collecting his
writings on  teaching Gemara will, BeH, be published soon by Yeshivat
Siach  Yitzchak.

Kol tuv, Rav Zvi Leshem, Rav of Kehilat Shirat Shlomo, Efrat  and
Research Fellow, Bina L'Atim Institute, Yeshivat Siach  Yitzchak.





On Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 2:13 AM, Jack Nahmod  <jacknahmod@...> wrote:
> This is a great question for the  general list as well, especially since
this
> one unfortunately does not  generate much conversation. Will you be posting
> it there  too?
>
> Thank you,
>  Jack

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups  Links








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Read reviews on AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

But of course. Here is a preview of what has come in so far:

V. Google, the Internet, and education

From: "Rabbi Pinchas Hayman" <bonayich@...>
To: "Shalom Berger" <szberger@...>
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 12:08 AM
Subject: Re: Talmud and the Internet

Dear Shalom,

Rabbi Berman is no doubt correct about the very important role of the
authors of the Shakla V'Tarya of the sugya, and that they are, on the whole,
later than the Amoraim.  However, it is a complete illusion to claim that
this is "academic methodology".  The knowledge that one should clearly
distinguish between the Amoraim and the Stama D'Talmuda was obvious to all
the Rishonim and Acharonim, and the academicians are, at most, filling in
small lacunae here and there.

Our program for the teaching of Gemara Skills, V'Dibarta Bam, is predicated
on this approach of the Rishonim, and gives students in Grades 7 and 8 basic
training in reflective strategization of sugya learning.  This includes:
     - full awareness of the Amoraim and their Batei Midrash
     - the nature, form and function of each type of Memra
     - the patterns of Amoraic sugyot as they developed over the Amoraic
period
     - the existence, identification and roles of the Stama D'Talmuda in
these sugyot
     - the language, terminology and argumentation patterns of the Stama
D'Talmuda
     - introduction to the Gaonim and the Rishonim, including their awareness
and use of the above

I would be pleased to share our program with Rabbi Berman, and with all
other educators who are, like him, sincerely interested in the betterment of
Talmud learning through accurate skills which flow from the original Masorah
of Am Yisrael!

Pinchas Hayman

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by: Jeffrey Spitzer jspitzer@...
Date: August 07, 2008 11:57PM
Re: Google, the Internet, and education

In response to Scot Berman's question about awareness of the stamma
d'gemara in high school pedagogy:

At Gann Academy, we train our ninth graders studying Talmud to be
attuned to the use of technical terminology of the stam, and by the
end of 9th grade, students develop a pretty decent facility in
highlighting the gemara according to its four layers. They continue to
use these tools throughout High School.

More significantly, the nature of the editing of the gemara is the
MAIN topic of study, at least in my class. Students in my class write
two significant papers during the third trimester on how they imagine
the stam's activity: what kinds of sources might the stam have had in
front of him before he constructed the sugya as we have it, how did
the stam use and modify sources either directly or by selective
quotation or by recontextualization, can we identify the stam's own
position as we navigate between the different voices speaking through
the text?

The reason why we do this is because in our pluralistic school, a
reading of the Talmud as a source of halakhah speaks to only some of
the students. But AlLL of the students are in the process of receiving
a tradition, processing a tradition, and expressing their own
conception and their own narrative of that tradition. In effect, our
students are editors of their own Jewish identities. As such, the most
powerful "character" in the Talmud is the editor.

I understand that the work of the stam took place over many
generations, and I am also aware that some believe that the stam
developed during the Amoraic period and not at its end (although I
don't find this persuasive). Even so, I am comfortable with the
simplification and the conceit that the Talmud was edited by a single
hand. My students know it is a "shorthand" when I call the stam a
"he", but it is a worthwhile one. My students relate to the editor.
They see the challenges created by conflicts between faithfulness to a
tradition, intellectual honesty, and moral intuition as their own
challenges.

I don't buy into all of the fetishistic technical prowess of the
Revadim program. Students in high school just don't need to know all
of what Revadim considers to be significant. What students do need to
know is that:
1) while the later layers of the gemara may indeed be explaining the
actual meaning of an earlier text, the later layers may also be
speaking with new and creative voices
2) comparative work with different versions of texts from the Tosefta,
the Yerushalmi or parallels in the Bavli can help one figure out what
might have gone into producing a sugya
3) the editors of the Bavli had a variety of different concerns in
putting together the sugyot as we have them, and we need to figure out
what criteria we use to determine what is a possible reading and what
is a likely reading.

I explored much of this in the paper I wrote for the Rabbinics
conference at Brandeis, using examples from student work.

I feel a little weird dropping this in to the discussion: I won't be
online for the next week as I take my one week of vacation this
summer. I'll try to respond to questions and challenges then (I'm sure
Pinchas Hayman will want to pull apart my critique of Revadim--I'm
eager to hear his rationale for why he thinks average students need to
memorize generations of Tannaim and Amoraim).

B'vrakhah,
Jeffrey Spitzer
Chair, Department of Rabbinic Literature
Gann Academy, Waltham, MA

----------------------------------------------------

From: Zvi Leshem juliezvi@...
To: lookjed@...
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: Talmud and the Internet

Shalom,

Regarding the issues that Rabbi Scot Berman raises regarding the
Stamaim and their use in education, I would make the following brief
points.
1: For the latest in Prof. Rav Halivni's research and theories, see
his lengthy introduction to Mekorot u'Mesorot: Baba Batra, Magnes
Press, Jerusalem 5768.
2: While I personally find Rav Halivni's theories regarding the
lateness of the Stamaim and their decisive role in shaping the
discourse of the Bavli very convincing, I am not sure that they are as
widely accepted in academic research as Rabbi Berman assumes.  It
seems to me that there is still quite a bit of controversy, especially
on the details.
3: Regarding the discussion of the Stamaim in an educational setting,
this touches upon a very complex pedagogic issue even for the educator
who accepts the theory as historically and theologically sound.  I
wish to reiterate what I wrote to this list several years ago when Rav
Dr. Pinchas Hyman's "Shitat haRovadim" as an educational method was
being debated.  Many years ago Rav Halivni told me (I must admit that
we have not discussed this recently) that Talmud Criticism was an
appropriate method for only advanced Talmud students ("those who can
easily read through the Milchamot and the Baal HaMaor" - which I
suspect would exclude a lot of us).  While Talmud Criticism is an
important tool, let's face it, it can be pretty tedious.  It still
seems to me that this is not the way to "turn on" high school students
to learning Gemara.  Does that mean that the Stamaim can't be
mentioned?  Of course not.  It is certainly relevant to discuss the
issue in an "Intro. to Toshba" class etc.  I wouldn't however jump
from there to dissecting suggyot in shiur.
4: It is worth taking note of Rav Shagar zt"l's method of combining
classical lumdos with Talmudic Research.  A book collecting his
writings on teaching Gemara will, BeH, be published soon by Yeshivat
Siach Yitzchak.

Kol tuv, Rav Zvi Leshem, Rav of Kehilat Shirat Shlomo, Efrat and
Research Fellow, Bina L'Atim Institute, Yeshivat Siach Yitzchak.





On Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 2:13 AM, Jack Nahmod <jacknahmod@...> wrote:
> This is a great question for the general list as well, especially since this
> one unfortunately does not generate much conversation. Will you be posting
> it there too?
>
> Thank you,
> Jack

This is a great question for the general list as well, especially since this
one unfortunately does not generate much conversation. Will you be posting
it there too?

Thank you,
Jack


-----Original Message-----
From: Shaqla_VeTarya@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Shaqla_VeTarya@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Shalom Berger
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 2:58 PM
To: shaqla_vetarya@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Shaqla_VeTarya] Google, the Internet, and education

I don't know if you are following the current Lookjed discussion entitled
"Google, the Internet, and education" (you can see the discussiojn here
http://lookstein.org/lookjed/read.php?1,17118 ), but it has segued to a
question about introducing students to differences between discussions
between individually named sages in the Talmud and anonymous discussions -
"stama."

Please take a look at Scott Berman's question (below).

Kol Tuv,
Shalom

Rabbi Shalom Z. Berger, Ed.D.
The Lookstein Center for Jewish Education
Bar-Ilan University

----- Original Message -----
From: Rabbi Scot A. Berman
To: lookjed@...
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 11:03 PM
Subject: Talmud and the Internet


Dear Shalom:



I found the give and take about similarities and differences between the
character of the internet and that of Talmud most fascinating.  Such an
exercise for me is instructive not so much for sharpening my understanding
of the Internet, although that certainly has been a byproduct.  The
conversation helps me reflect on the nature of Talmud and how it operates.
Rabbi Pittinsky's observations on the differences between the internet and
Talmud I found to be reflective and insightful.  However, I would like to
suggest that he has not sufficiently taken into account the anonymous nature
of Talmudic editing.

In the Academic arena of talmudic study it is generally accepted that it was
anonymous sages who fashioned, shaped and finally edited the Talmud.  A
number of sugyot have even been shown to be edited by the post-talmudic
Sabboraim.  Even Rav Shrira Gon gives testimony to that.  These anonymous
sages - who some refer to as the stam d'gmara and others, as Prof. David
Weiss HaLivni has coined the term, Stamaim, working in anonymity are
responsible for shaping the Talmud pretty much as we have it today.



The influence of the Stam cannot be overstated.  They framed the questions,
shaped the conversations, weaved into the conversation citations from
amoraim and tannaim, interpreted and reinterpreted these sources, and
provided us with sugyot that taken as a whole present us with a world view
on how to understand Judaism.  Together with the Bible, the Talmud Bavli has
probably been the most influential literary work in shaping Judaism in all
its forms.



This is not to take away from the commitment by the Stam to quote
authoritative texts i.e.  tannaitic and amoraic and even to pursue at great
lengths  amoraic statements' basis in earlier tannatic material.  In fact
the working assumption in Talmud is that tannaim may not be contradicted by
amoraim.  This need for attribution and reliance upon authority is where we
often see the enormous creativity and contributions of the unattributed
Stam.  Because the stam are committed to the authority of earlier material,
they many times reinterpret that earlier material in ways that these
original texts/statements mean things very different from how we "plainly"
read them.



And yet, we know so little about the Stam.  Who where they?  How many where
they?  Did they work together in groups or as individuals?  Why did they
choose to work anonymously especially given that attribution of earlier
sages was so important to them?  Was it out of humility or some other
factor/factors?



Such assumptions that I am presenting here have enormous implications for
teachers of Talmud and their students in determining how a sugya is
presented.  Some people, no doubt, reject the "theory of the stam" and
embrace Rav Shira Gaon's conclusion that Ravina and Rav Ashi edited the
Talmud.



I am (more than) curious about the following:

Are teachers incorporating the "theory of the stamma" in their teaching?
How many teachers are knowledgeable of it and even incorporate it into their
private learning but select not to introduce it into the classroom?  Why?
How has such instruction impacted on students' attachment to the subject?


Scot A. Berman

Executive Director

Seryl & Charles Kushner Family Foundation




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

I thought that this resource may be of use/interest to you.

Shalom

Rabbi Shalom Z. Berger, Ed.D.
The Lookstein Center for Jewish Education
Bar-Ilan University

----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Spitzer
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 12:58 AM
Subject: Rabbinic Literature Genre Map


Shalom,


I've posted my Rabbinic Literature Genre Map online. If you want access to
high-resolution versions for print, see below.


The genre map, unlike the Yam haHalakhah* poster, shows the various genres of
Rabbinic literature and their relationships. As we expand the canon of texts
which we use in our teaching, it is becoming more and more important to provide
a clear way to understand the Rabbinic library. The genre map uses a variety of
graphical tools to help students understand the different documents and genres
of rabbinic literature, how they are structured, and what their relationships
are to each other.


The current web implementation works only in Internet Explorer for now, but the
genre map is now annotated with explanatory tooltips if you mouse over the map.
I just drafted the tooltips the other night, so if you have suggestions or
corrections, please send them my way; they are a work in progress and should
only be considered a "proof-of-concept". If you click on any of the items, it
will open up links to additional information from either MyJewishLearning,
Eliezer Segal's Talmud Map website, or Wikipedia. I've posted two versions of
the genre map, one in Hebrew and one in English, but the tooltips are only in
English; if there is interest, I can produce the version in Hebrew with Hebrew
tooltips, but probably not before school starts.


https://fc.gannacademy.org/gannopedia/genremap/rlgenremap.html


https://fc.gannacademy.org/gannopedia/genremap/rlgenremaphebrew.html


Again, open this up in Internet Explorer and not Firefox (of course, if you
don't like the tooltips, you can open it up in Firefox and it will display
without them).


By way of explanation, we use the colors in the map to layer texts in the gemara
(pink for psukim, blue for baraitot and mishnayot, green for the gemara of the
Amoraim, and sunshine yellow for the stam--these are the four most common colors
in standard sets of highlighter pens).


Also on the same gannopedia site you'll see a timeline of Jewish history and a
not yet complete Jewish literacy tool (and a timeline of the history of Gann
Academy for those of you who are interested!). These were produced using MIT's
Simile tools. Take a look at simile.mit.edu for technical information. The
Simile tools give you basic database functionality without having to program a
database.


The other tools work in both Firefox and IE. I don't know why the tooltips for
the genre map aren't working in IE, but if anyone with technological knowledge
has any insight, I'd appreciate your help.


If you maintain a list of web resources, feel free to add any of these to your
lists or to forward the resources to colleagues. If you find any of these tools
useful or if you have suggestions, please send me a note.


NOTE for people working in schools:


The web graphic is low res and not really fit for printing, but if you want to
have a high res version in pdf I can provide that to you. My school and I put a
lot of time and money into producing this, including hiring at significant
expense a graphic designer. I'd like to be able to reimburse my school for their
expenses in helping to produce this, so if you want, please contact me, and I
can see about distributing copies of the genre map in both Hebrew and in
English, in color and in black and white. We produce the high-res versions on
heavy paper and give every student a copy in a plastic sleeve to keep in their
notebook. We also have a version that leaves the map in place but without the
text labels, which we use for quizzes. I just want to recoup our expenses, so
the more people who are interested, the less I can charge. If you are
interested, please send me an email with the words "genre map" in the subject
line.


Use of the genre map online is perfectly acceptable, and I hope you will use it.
Any other use is genevat da'at.


I'm really sorry if you get more than one copy of this ; I'm using various
lists.


Biv'rakhah,
Jeffrey Spitzer


*I don't mean any disrespect to the Yam haHalakhah poster; after all, it
includes Boston on the map ;-). But as an educational tool, it is really quite
limited.


_________________________________________________
** Unanswered questions are far less dangerous than unquestioned answers**


Jeffrey Spitzer            "Take risks to learn, take time to teach"      This
message may
Chair, Dept. of Talmud and Rabbinics
be forwarded
Gann Academy, The New Jewish High School                                  
without seeking
333 Forest St
permission.
Waltham, MA 02452
781-642-6800
jspitzer@...
www.gannacademy.org


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't know if you are following the current Lookjed discussion entitled
"Google, the Internet, and education" (you can see the discussiojn here
http://lookstein.org/lookjed/read.php?1,17118 ), but it has segued to a question
about introducing students to differences between discussions between
individually named sages in the Talmud and anonymous discussions - "stama."

Please take a look at Scott Berman's question (below).

Kol Tuv,
Shalom

Rabbi Shalom Z. Berger, Ed.D.
The Lookstein Center for Jewish Education
Bar-Ilan University

----- Original Message -----
From: Rabbi Scot A. Berman
To: lookjed@...
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 11:03 PM
Subject: Talmud and the Internet


Dear Shalom:



I found the give and take about similarities and differences between the
character of the internet and that of Talmud most fascinating.  Such an exercise
for me is instructive not so much for sharpening my understanding of the
Internet, although that certainly has been a byproduct.  The conversation helps
me reflect on the nature of Talmud and how it operates.  Rabbi Pittinsky’s
observations on the differences between the internet and Talmud I found to be
reflective and insightful.  However, I would like to suggest that he has not
sufficiently taken into account the anonymous nature of Talmudic editing.

In the Academic arena of talmudic study it is generally accepted that it was
anonymous sages who fashioned, shaped and finally edited the Talmud.  A number
of sugyot have even been shown to be edited by the post-talmudic Sabboraim. 
Even Rav Shrira Gon gives testimony to that.  These anonymous sages - who some
refer to as the stam d’gmara and others, as Prof. David Weiss HaLivni has coined
the term, Stamaim, working in anonymity are responsible for shaping the Talmud
pretty much as we have it today.



The influence of the Stam cannot be overstated.  They framed the questions,
shaped the conversations, weaved into the conversation citations from amoraim
and tannaim, interpreted and reinterpreted these sources, and provided us with
sugyot that taken as a whole present us with a world view on how to understand
Judaism.  Together with the Bible, the Talmud Bavli has probably been the most
influential literary work in shaping Judaism in all its forms.



This is not to take away from the commitment by the Stam to quote authoritative
texts i.e.  tannaitic and amoraic and even to pursue at great lengths  amoraic
statements’ basis in earlier tannatic material.  In fact the working assumption
in Talmud is that tannaim may not be contradicted by amoraim.  This need for
attribution and reliance upon authority is where we often see the enormous
creativity and contributions of the unattributed Stam.  Because the stam are
committed to the authority of earlier material, they many times reinterpret that
earlier material in ways that these original texts/statements mean things very
different from how we “plainly” read them.



And yet, we know so little about the Stam.  Who where they?  How many where
they?  Did they work together in groups or as individuals?  Why did they choose
to work anonymously especially given that attribution of earlier sages was so
important to them?  Was it out of humility or some other factor/factors?



Such assumptions that I am presenting here have enormous implications for
teachers of Talmud and their students in determining how a sugya is presented. 
Some people, no doubt, reject the “theory of the stam” and embrace Rav Shira
Gaon’s conclusion that Ravina and Rav Ashi edited the Talmud.



I am (more than) curious about the following:

Are teachers incorporating the “theory of the stamma” in their teaching?   How
many teachers are knowledgeable of it and even incorporate it into their private
learning but select not to introduce it into the classroom?  Why?  How has such
instruction impacted on students’ attachment to the subject?

Scot A. Berman

Executive Director

Seryl & Charles Kushner Family Foundation




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I thought that this might be of some interest to you.

Wishing all a Hag Kasher VeSame'ah

Shalom

Rabbi Shalom Z. Berger, Ed.D.
The Lookstein Center for Jewish Education
Bar-Ilan University



From: "Leib Moscovitz" <moscol@...>
Subject: Online database of sources and parallels to the Talmud Yerushalmi
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 10:28 AM

The Talmud Department of Bar-Ilan University and the Livin Chair for
Talmudic Research are pleased to announce the online publication of a
database of sources and parallels to the Talmud Yerushalmi.

The database contains references to biblical verses cited in the
Yerushalmi, as well as sources/parallels from the Mishnah, Tosefta,
Halakhic midrashim, the Yerushalmi itself, and the classical aggadic
midrashim, as well as selected parallels from the Babylonian Talmud
(additional parallels are currently being entered).

The database consists of a collection of PDF files, which can be viewed,
searched, downloaded and printed, and is located at the following URL:
http://www.biu.ac.il/js/tl/yerushalmi/ (see also
http://www.biu.ac.il/js/tl/yerushalmi/about.html for more information).


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The last query that I shared (about teaching the Second perek of Makkot)
didn't get much of a response. How about this seasonal question?

Kol Tuv,
Shalom

Rabbi Shalom Z. Berger, Ed.D.
The Lookstein Center for Jewish Education
Bar-Ilan University

----- Original Message -----
From: Joanna Bruce joanna@...
To: lookjed@...
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 12:31 PM
Subject: Mordechai min ha Torah minayyin?


Does anyone have any sources or their own insights into the connection the
Gemorah in Chullin 139b makes between Mordechai and the Mar D'ror in the
verse from Shemot 30:23? I'm looking for a connection that goes beyond the
phonetic.

Thank you

Jo Bruce
Head of Women's programmes
LSJS
020 8203 6427
www.lsjs.ac.uk

Any suggestions for this request?

Thanks,
Shalom

Rabbi Shalom Z. Berger, Ed.D.
The Lookstein Center for Jewish Education
Bar-Ilan University

----- Original Message -----
From: tyw313@...
To: lookjed@...
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 11:44 PM
Subject: second perek of makkot


If anyone has material (list of sugyot, lesson plans, etc.) on the second perek
of makkot that can be used to teach a weak 10th grade class, I would love to see
it.

Thanks
Tova Warburg Sinensky

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More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have given talks on this topic in my post high school yeshiva as
well as to adults back in the US for years. I have found an approach
that works quite well. While I have a one hour lecture on the topic
with many sources, I'll just mention a few key points.

1. I start by explaining that while any answer that we come up with
that is satisfying philosophically will still probably not satisfy us
emotionally. If someone is lying in the gutter suffering because his
life has crumbled and cries out "Why?!!", you would not satisfy him by
telling him, "Well actually... here's the reason."

2. I remind the students that even Moshe Rabbeinu was bothered by this
question - meaning that this question pushes the limits of human
understanding.

3. What is the purpose of life? If the answer is that the purpose of
life is to be happy, healthy, and free of pain, then we truly have a
philosophical problem.

On the other hand, if the purpose of life is to grow closer to G-d, be
a better eved Hashem, have more yedi'at Hashem, etc. then while it's a
very painful and sad thing, there's really no question at all. Why
should we assume that being pain free and suffering free is a better
way to achieve these goals than through suffering. If  G-d determined
that THIS person will achieve this goal through suffering then there's
no question at all. In fact, we could equally question why we are not
suffering when we are not. Am I being deprived of something that will
bring me closer to G-d? Obviously the answer to that question is that
different people have different challenges while the goal of closeness
to Hashem remains the same for everyone.

There's a lot more to this and I'd be happy to discuss these issues
further. I have a lot of mekorot on the topic.

I heard R. Moshe Soloveitchik give shiur on this topic.  If I'm not mistaken,
and I might be (I heard the shiur over a year ago, and my memory is certainly
not perfect anyway), he said that the Rambam rejects this approach and holds
that all suffering is connected with some degree of sin.  Additionally, I
believe that he said that the Ran's approach is that afflictions of love are a
way of detaching a person from this world, to facilitate their ultimate
transition into the next (it's easier to be less attached to this world when
this world is less pleasent).  I know that he went through other approaches, but
I don't currently recall them.  I know that R. Carmy put out a book on suffering
in Judaism (Orthodox Forum) which, I assume, addresses this topic. 
Additionally, R. Kook's material on Berachos is fascinating, and really forces
you to think.
   Mendel Breitstein


---------------------------------
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

For one perspective regarding Yisrurin Shel Ahava, See Beraishit Rabba 56:2-3
and Shemot?Rabba 1:1.

Yaakov Bieler


-----Original Message-----
From: Shalom Berger <lookjed@...>
To: Shaqla_VeTarya@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 3:33 am
Subject: [Shaqla_VeTarya] Difficult teaching in Massechet Brachot




Any suggestions in response to this Lookjed query?

Kol Tuv,
Shalom

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Posted by: Matt Reingold <Matt.Reingold@...>
Date: November 25, 2007 04:54AM


I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions or source material on
teaching the section on Brachot 5a that discusses reasons for why 'bad
things happen to good people' to a group of high school or older people. I
think many people can wrap their heads around the first explanation given
(maybe the person did something bad) and maybe even the second (talmud
torah wasn't with so much kavana or done at all) but by the third - which
is 'yisurin shel ahava' or afflictions of love (from God) - I think many
students either think this is silly, tune out or rebel against it.

Any suggestions of how to teach it or good resources that address this
issue? I am aware of R' Blech's book If God is Good Why is the World so
Bad and Kushner's book Why Do Bad Things Happen to Good People but I am
looking more for a source that uses this gmara as a starting point and it
can then branch out to a more worldly outlook.

Thank you!

Matt Reingold




Yahoo! Groups Links





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Any suggestions in response to this Lookjed query?

Kol Tuv,
Shalom

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Posted by: Matt Reingold <Matt.Reingold@...>
Date: November 25, 2007 04:54AM


I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions or source material on
teaching the section on Brachot 5a that discusses reasons for why 'bad
things happen to good people' to a group of high school or older people. I
think many people can wrap their heads around the first explanation given
(maybe the person did something bad) and maybe even the second (talmud
torah wasn't with so much kavana or done at all) but by the third - which
is 'yisurin shel ahava' or afflictions of love (from God) - I think many
students either think this is silly, tune out or rebel against it.

Any suggestions of how to teach it or good resources that address this
issue? I am aware of R' Blech's book If God is Good Why is the World so
Bad and Kushner's book Why Do Bad Things Happen to Good People but I am
looking more for a source that uses this gmara as a starting point and it
can then branch out to a more worldly outlook.

Thank you!

Matt Reingold