CAPITAL PUNISHMENT
a Panel Discussion

Tues, May 1
7-9 PM with a Reception and Book Signing until 9:30

Temple Beth El at Shalom Park
5101 Providence Road

free and open to the public
Please bring a book to donate to the Gatlin Juvenile Detention Center
reading level 4th-9th grade

sponsored by Women's American ORT and Temple Beth El

This is a nonbiased panel discussion to talk about the Death Penalty and its

many aspects including the proposed Moratorium.  The panel will be moderated

by Ed Williams of The Charlotte Observer, and panel members will include:
  District Attorney Peter Gilchrist, Police Chief Darrel Stephens, Rabbi
James
Bennett, Public Defender Gay Atkins, attorneys Lyle Yurko, Philip VanHoy,
Jim
Cooney, and James Ferguson II, and author and attorney Katya Lezin who will
also do a book signing of Finding Life on Death Row.  This book will be
available for purchase during the reception.  We are requesting that
participants bring a book to donate to the Gatlin Juvenile Detention Center
for males.  Books should be wholesome and for reading levels grades 4-9.

Women's American ORT supports schools that teach people technical skills so
that participants can be productive members of society.   Temple Beth El is
a
Reform Jewish Congregation.

Questions, contact Shari Naman at Namanshari@....

-----------------
Rev. Andy Baxter
Executive Director
Mecklenburg Ministries
1510 E. 7th St.
Charlotte NC, 28204
work-704.347-2404
mobile-704-906-8020
fax-704-347-1766
andy.baxter@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Greetings from Mecklenburg Ministries!

We've been asked by the County Commissioners to nominate people to serve on
the Community Awareness/Relations subcommittee of the new Affordable Housing
Task force sponsored by the Commission.

Those chosen to serve on the committees will be working for 6-8 months with
an assigned facilitator and staff support.

Please forward nominations (yourselves or others in your congregation) to me
by next Tuesday, April 24th.  I will send them on to the nominating group.

If you have questions about the subcommittee's role, contact Anne Dalton at
the Health Department by phone at 704-336-3494 or
daltoam@... <mailto:daltoam@...> .

I hope that our communities of faith will be represented well.

Peace,
Andy

-----------------
Rev. Andy Baxter
Executive Director
Mecklenburg Ministries
1510 E. 7th St.
Charlotte NC, 28204
work-704.347-2404
mobile-704-906-8020
fax-704-347-1766
andy.baxter@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ACES at Wonderful Wednesday -
(Bible study: 6:15-7:00pm. Dinner begins at 5:45)

Wednesday 4/4  David McGuirt continues leading a discussion of the book,
What's so Amazing About Grace. This week's discussion will focus on where we
find grace in the world? Hope you can join us for this thoughtful and
inspiring discussion.

ACES on Sunday Morning -
(Hope Building 9:45-10:30am)

Many thanks to Karen Williams! She completed the discussion on prayer this
past Sunday.

*** There will be no Sunday bible study - April 8 or 15  ****

For more information regarding any ACES events: Contact the church office
(338-1914) or Beth Whitehead (442-0586 or Bethw555@...).

We still have several spaces available.  We have a GREAT GROUP signed up and are
looking forward to an inspiring discussion.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gloria Spanjer <Gloria.Spanjer@...>
To: seigleavenuepresbyterian@yahoogroups.com
<seigleavenuepresbyterian@yahoogroups.com>; seigleav@...
<seigleav@...>
Date: Monday, March 12, 2001 10:46 AM
Subject: LIKE A PRAYER exhibit


What:    LIKE A PRAYER exhibit  (viewing and discussing the art with facilitator
and partner group)

When:   Sunday, March 25th from 6:00-8:00 pm.

Where:    Spirit Square Galleries

Register:    Gloria.Spanjer@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Do you worry about things that most people don't worry about?
   > Is it difficult for you to stop worrying and relax?
   > Does your worry rarely lead to solutions?
   > Do you worry even when things are going well?

If you answered "Yes" to any or all of these questions, then read on!

I'm giving an informal program entitled "Stop Worrying: How to
Unclutter Your Mind" this Thursday evening, March 22, at 7-8:30 PM at
Talley's Green Grocery on East Boulevard (behind the Outback
Steakhouse).  The program is free and open to the public.

I thought our list serv would be a good way of letting folks in the
church know about the program.  If you know of anyone who may be
interested in attending, please forward this email or tell them about
the program.  I hope to see you Thursday!

Stephen MacNair-Semands, Ph.D.
Licensed Psychologist

Sunday, March 25 from 2:00pm to 3:30pm at Third Presbyterian Church

Please plan to join members from the area churches listed  below to
welcome Andres and Gloria Garcia to Charlotte.  The Garcias are from
Costa Rica and will be spending six months in our city doing mission
work through the presbytery.

The program will include presentations by the Garcias and each of the
churches, entertainment and refreshments.

Participating churches: Albemarle Road Pres., Amity Pres., Ben Salem
Pres., New Hampton Pre4s., Plaza Pres., Robinson Pres., Seigle Avenue
Pres., and Third Pres.

Friends:

The message saved on my computer shows that I forwarded Donna's message,
but (thankfully) I've received a couple of responses letting me know
that it isn't there.  (Ya'll get up way too early.)   I have the
suspicion that Yahoogroups doesn't "do" forwarding.

Anyway, sorry and here's the text of Donna's original message:


Well friends, THE NEWS IS THE BEST IT COULD BE!

Dr. Papalos surmised that North Carolina's pediatric psychiatry
community hasn't progressed beyond about 1992, since that is the latest
research he knows of that supports the treatment and medication that
Oscar has been getting!  It turns out that each and every
doctor/hospital/treatment team we've used has been outdated and wrong
about therapeutic levels of medication for Oscar and that's why his
symptoms have not been brought under control!

Dr. Papalos' recommendation is simply to wean Oscar off the Risperdol
completely (it's for extremely short-term treatment of psychosis and
should never have been used this long) and increase his Tegretol to the
currently accepted therapeutic level.  His opinion is that there is no
reason Oscar can't have a normal (symptoms under control) childhood and
a productive life, with currently approved medication and some lifestyle
adjustments -- diet, regimen, etc.

Dr. Papalos will be Oscar's referring psychiatrist from now on and is
sending written instructions to the local team and to Carrie for
reference -- to keep them in line!  Carrie was very impressed with the
doctor's intelligence and broad knowledge of pediatric bipolar disease.
He is quite interested in our bipolar-ridden family -- especially the
two sets of siblings (apparently that's rare ... aren't we lucky?).

Thank you all for your support.  I feel as if Oscar's been "adopted" by
all of you and we are so lucky to have such a strong network of friends
and family.  His 8th birthday is next week and it will be the happiest
one we've had for a long time.

With affection,

Donna

Friends:

I couldn't possibly say it better ... here's the update on Oscar from
Donna.

The care and compassion demonstrated by this congregation has been
nothing short of overwhelming.  As the message began several weeks ago,
so shall it end.  Thanks for your generosity.  Thanks for your prayers
(please continue these).  Thanks for the multitude of kindnesses and all
of your help.

Karen Williams


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ACES at Wonderful Wednesday -
(Bible study: 6:15-7:00pm. Dinner begins at 5:45)

Wednesday, 3/14 Tom Lannin continues leading a discussion on the book, Adam,
Eve and the Serpent. Reading the book is not a requirement!

Wednesday, 3/21 Our last discussion of the book , Adam, Eve and the Serpent.

Wednesday 3/28 David McGuirt begins a discussion of the book, What's so
Amazing About Grace.

ACES on Sunday Morning -
(Hope Building 9:45-10:30am)

Sunday , 3/18: Karen Williams continues leading "Please Help Me, God!"
(Series will continue March 25 and April 1) Join us as we
discuss the attitude and power of prayer.  The group will study different
approaches to communication with God.  You'll be invited to reflect on the
impact of prayer in your own life and to think about its purpose and place in
your family, church and community. And, of course, we'll spend time together
in prayer.

For more information regarding any ACES events: Contact the church office
(338-1914) or Beth Whitehead (442-0586 or Bethw555@...).

MLP MEDIA RELEASE
http://www.mlp.org/news/opr.html

March 14, 2001

PRESBYTERIES REJECT BAN ON HOLY UNIONS
AMENDMENT O FAILS

NATIONAL--Four more presbyteries vote to reject the
ban on Holy Unions and the measure fails. The
leadership of More Light Presbyterians (MLP) is
pleased with the decisions of a majority of
presbyteries to vote down Amendment O, which had the
potential to seriously limit the ways in which
churches and pastors engage in ministry. Passed by a
deeply divided 212th General Assembly in June,
2000, it was intended to ban pastors from conducting
same-gender blessings as well as the use of church
property in offering such blessings. 87 of the 173
presbyteries have voted against the measure to date,
sending a clear message that the previous General
Assembly proposed an unacceptable intrusion into
pastoral ministry.

Mitzi Henderson, MLP Co-moderator explained the
proposed ban saying, "If the church is serious about
the importance of faith to family life, to wholeness
of relationships, it cannot continue to ignore the
commitments of same gender couples. The public
blessing of love and fidelity, before family and
friends, has a profoundly spiritual significance."

Local pastors were among the strongest opponents to
Amendment O. Pastor Tom Davis of Hanover Street
Presbyterian Church in Wilmington, Delaware put it
this way, " I think this was just another measure to
exclude people who are in genuinely loving and
committed relationships from receiving the blessings
of God and the recognition of the church. I am in
favor of blessing same gender unions because it
encourages fidelity and brings lesbian and gay people
into closer relationship with our church."

Same gender commitment ceremonies are an important
ministry of many congregations reaching out to the
LGBT
community. Martha Juillerat of Minneapolis, MN, a
former Presbyterian minister, talked about the
significance of her commitment ceremony with her life
partner of thirteen years, Tammy Lindahl. "A holy
union is important to me not only because I am a
lesbian, but even more so because I am a person of
faith. As a person of faith I commit all of my life to

God -- my work, my family, my friendships, my service.
How can I not commit the most important human
relationship in my life to God? As a pastor, how can I
ever deny this to others to commit their life and love
in this way?"

More Light Presbyterians and That All May Freely Serve
hope to work together with others in our church to
strengthen our covenantal and family relationships.
These groups have joined together in an open letter to
say that they are ready to work along with the broader
church," toward stronger, more faithful, and
meaningful
relationships for all church members." The letter
re-affirms a commitment to work for the inclusion of
all people in the church and to recognize the
blessings that God has to offer lesbian, gay, bisexual
and
transgender people of faith who are in loving and
committed relationships. "Our families and our friends
join with us to stand in support, and to honor our
commitments in deeply sacred moments for all present.
We call on our Presbyterian Church (USA) to create
venues in which we may learn from each other and work
toward healthy human relationships, in all their
forms."

More Light Presbyterians is an organization of
congregations and individuals in the Presbyterian
Church (U.S.A.) working for the full inclusion of
lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender Christians in
the life and leadership of the church.

__________________________________________________
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From PCUSA NEWS: 13-March-2001
Second Presbyterian Coalition/Covenant Network Bible
study

Second Presbyterian Coalition/Covenant Network Bible
study touches on divorce, women's ordination and
biblical authority - Opposing camps disagree on
whether to continue meeting
by Eva G. Stimson

GLEN ELLYN, Il. - After two days of intense
discussions in a church parlor here, 10 Presbyterians
from opposite ends of the theological spectrum packed
up their Bibles and commentaries and headed home -
without evidence that anyone's mind had been changed
and without plans for a future meeting.

The March 8-10 meeting, hosted by First Presbyterian
Church in Glen Ellyn, a suburb west of Chicago,
continued an experiment begun in September when the
same 10 people sat down together - a bit hesitantly at
first - to dig into the Bible in an open-ended quest
for mutual understanding. The March meeting continued
the pattern established in September: the participants
prayed and sang hymns together, shared several meals,
and engaged in wide-ranging conversations that always
seemed to circle back to questions about biblical
authority and interpretation.

The group remained sharply divided on what the Bible
teaches about homosexuality - the issue that prompted
their meetings and loomed in the background of all
their discussions. And in the end they could not reach
consensus on whether to meet again.

The Rev. Deborah Block, co-moderator of the Covenant
Network of Presbyterians, a group that supports the
ordination of gays and lesbians, said she would like
to continue meeting. The four other Covenant Network
representatives also said they were willing to meet
again. But representatives of the Presbyterian
Coalition, a group that opposes gay ordination,
expressed reservations.

"I'm questioning the benefit to the church of
continuing what seems like an interminable
discussion," said Terry Schlossberg, executive
director of Presbyterians Pro-Life. "It might be more
fruitful for the church to engage in this discussion
in its deliberative bodies."

Noting that each person present represented a
particular interest group in the church, she suggested
the constraints of "operating in a political
environment" might put a damper on future
conversations: "We're people who will be perceived as
betraying constituencies by any change we make in the
positions we hold."

"I understand that," said Block, "but I feel I would
be more faithful to my network by continuing to meet -
with no expectation that you would change your mind,
but that I would better understand your mind."

"We can't ignore who we are and who we represent,"
responded the Rev. Parker Williamson, executive editor
of The Presbyterian Layman, an independent publication
that advocates theologically conservative points of
view. "I guarantee the church isn't ignoring it."

Williamson said he couldn't see much evidence that the
two sides had come any closer together theologically
as a result of their discussions. "We've found we can
be civil and enjoy each other's company," he said,
"but if anything, I've seen the lines between our
positions become even clearer."

With time running out March 10, Coalition members said
they would make a decision later about whether they
wanted to schedule another meeting.

  A model for the church?

Several participants expressed concern that the Glen
Ellyn meetings were being misunderstood by others in
the church. They feared some were interpreting the
meetings as negotiating sessions in which the two
parties would try to reach a compromise on issues
dividing the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.).

"There's a fear that there's going to be some sort of
negotiation or resolution," said Mitzi Henderson,
co-moderator of More Light Presbyterians, a group that
advocates for the full inclusion of gays and lesbians
in the church. "That's not our intent."

On a more positive note, Block commented: "We have
done the church an immense favor in terms of putting
the Scriptures at the center of our discussion, of
modeling that."

Williamson sharply criticized a statement issued by
113 presbytery executives and officers last fall,
which urges the denomination to find a "third way" - a
way that is not legislative or judicial - to resolve
debates about sexuality. "I was troubled by that
letter," he said, explaining that he understood it to
support "finding a political solution for a
theological problem."

He said he did not want the Glen Ellyn meetings to be
interpreted in that light. "What we agreed to do was
come together to share God's Word, not to cut a deal
or find a political solution."

But Schlossberg reminded the group: "Each of us is
involved in the politics of the church. When we come
together, it's natural to ask what political
motivations we have, what is the hidden agenda. ... I
think we have to examine ourselves on this matter. To
pretend that there's purity of motive - I'm not quite
sure that's getting all our cards on the table."

  "We have to remember the context," said the Rev.
Laird Stuart, co-moderator of the Covenant Network,
"We're not just meeting for Bible study. We're meeting
for Bible study in the midst of tremendous struggle."

Stuart said he did not believe the "third way"
proponents were arguing for a political solution. He
understood them to be saying that "The only way we're
going to get through this [stalemate over sexuality
issues] is that God would offer some deliverance."
Divorce and remarriage: how the church changed its
mind

In September participants had decided they wanted to
look at how the church has changed in its
interpretations of Scripture passages dealing with
divorce and the ordination of women. Williamson
presented to the group in March a paper on "Marriage,
Divorce and Remarriage." He summarized the process by
which the Presbyterian Church went from a position
that allowed divorce only in cases of physical
adultery and "malicious desertion," to an
interpretation of Scripture that recognized the
possibility of an "adultery in the heart" that could
lead to divorce.

This interpretation led the church to conclude that
"there is no innocent party" in a divorce, but that
"God's forgiveness in Jesus Christ can apply to
marital sin, just as it applies to sin in other
circumstances."

The Rev. Jerry Andrews, pastor of First Presbyterian
Church in Glen Ellyn and co-moderator of the
Presbyterian Coalition, noted that the church changed
its policy on divorce in response to a careful study
of Scripture, not because of pressure from the growing
number of divorced people among its members.

"There were some social realities that prompted the
reexamination of divorce," he said, "but it was not
social realities that determined the outcome."

And although the church now allows divorced persons to
remarry, Williamson said, "at no time has the
Presbyterian Church celebrated divorce or ceremonially
blessed it." The ordination of women: a personal story


The Rev. Anita Bell, co-moderator of the Presbyterian
Coalition, walked the group through the process of
biblical interpretation that convinced her 21 years
ago that it was God's will for women to be ordained.

"I was 19 years old, a senior in college, when I began
sensing the first nudgings of the Spirit toward
pastoral ministry," she said. Growing up in
conservative congregations, she "had never seen a
woman in ministry."

Bell added, "I never once questioned the position
women had in the church or wondered why men made all
the decisions and exposited from the pulpit."

Some of her evangelical friends urged her to drop the
idea of being ordained. But Bell was determined to
seek God's will by wrestling with the Bible's most
difficult passages about women and leadership.

Several observations led to her conclusion that women
could be ordained: the number of women whose
leadership gifts are celebrated in the Bible; the
witness of Jesus, "who raised women above the position
they held in society; light shed on difficult passages
by study of the original Greek text and the
historical/cultural context in which they were
written; a "fundamental theology of equality" of the
sexes that permeates Scripture.

Bell said she approached the task of biblical
interpretation with "fear and trembling," aware that
as an ordained woman she might let her biases
influence her reading of passages on women and
leadership. "Our temptation is to make the Scriptures
say what we want to hear," she observed. "That's the
struggle we bring every time we go to the text. It's
hard for us to come with open ears." Biblical
authority and interpretation: the bottom line

The group looked briefly at statements on biblical
authority and interpretation adopted by Presbyterian
General Assemblies in 1982 and 1983. While everyone
agreed, as Stuart put it, that "interpretation is a
necessary exercise," Andrews was the only one to stake
out a clear position on biblical authority. He said he
believes the Bible is true in matters of history and
science as well as faith.

"I don't think we ought to make a distinction between
history and faith," he declared. "How can we believe
the Bible got the history wrong but got the faith
right?"

But he said he would never apply the word "inerrant"
to a piece of literature, and "would never
characterize the Bible as a book of inerrant facts.
... Having said that, I don't think I've discovered
any errors in the Bible - just parts that don't seem
to fit in yet."

Andrews said he preferred the word "infallible" to
"inerrant," when talking about the Bible. "Infallible
means it will not fail us - in history, science, or
anything it presents."

Stuart reminded the group that "Scripture is inspired
not just in the initial writing, but in its
transmission over the years and the reading and
understanding of it."

"The remembered words of Jesus are not eyewitness
news," Block added. "How the Gospel writers remember
the words of Jesus into a story makes a difference in
how we interpret it."

Pam Byers, executive director of the Covenant
Network," agreed: "One of the reasons we keep going
back to a book that is 2000 years old is that we keep
discovering new insights."

"Sometimes I experience Scripture being used as a lamp
to illumine us," said Michael Adee, national field
organizer for More Light Presbyterians. "Other times I
experience it being used like a club by those of us
who position ourselves as infallible interpreters of
Scripture."

"What I fear most," Henderson said, "is the belief
that there's only one interpretation of Bible
passages, and unless we agree with that we're not
Christians."

Bell: "There are two ways to handle difficult
passages. We can dismiss them, or we can ask, What is
the lesson here?"

Stuart: "You don't have to be bound by the literal
specifics of a text - the issue is the message."

Williamson: "If you and I have different
interpretations of Scripture, it's incumbent on us to
go to the Word and engage each other."

Stuart: "If we go through that process and still
disagree, what do we do? There's got to be some way to
resolve these deadlocks about interpretations of
Scripture. . . . One alternative is for one person to
say, 'I've got it and you're not there yet, but we'll
wait for you to get there.' Another alternative is to
say, 'We're both not quite there yet, maybe.' "

Bell: "What I struggle with in the church is when we
leave Scripture behind and use other means that aren't
authoritative for us."

Block: "When Pilate asked Jesus, 'What is truth?' the
great error of his question was assuming truth was a
what and not a who. I believe I stand under Scripture,
but more importantly, I stand under the Lordship of
Christ." Stalemate on sexuality issues

Williamson's paper on divorce ended with a section
refuting arguments in favor of same-sex unions. But
Covenant Network representatives said they did not
want to discuss issues related to homosexuality until
after a thorough examination of women's ordination and
principles of biblical interpretation.

On the last morning Adee and Henderson said they would
welcome a study of the biblical passages related to
homosexuality. This prompted Williamson to direct a
barbed comment to Henderson: "I don't think you stand
under Scripture. I think you make judgments about
Scripture."

Visibly shaken, Adee responded: "I think you just
crossed a line, Parker, and I'm terribly disappointed
in you."

After a moment of strained silence, Schlossberg said
she did not believe a discussion of the Bible and
homosexuality would produce any fresh insights. "I
have a very difficult time imagining that some new
nuance of Scripture will emerge that has not already
emerged."

  Can the church stay together?

The Rev. Bill Giles, executive director of the
Presbyterian Coalition, observed that Presbyterians
are deeply divided about sexuality issues. "Each side
says they're standing under Scripture and are not
willing to back down or compromise. ... As we're
constantly tugging at each other, we're tearing the
church apart. ... Is it not possible that the will of
Christ for the church today is an amicable separation
or divorce?"

Bell: "There's no such thing as an amicable divorce."

Giles: "Certainly it's a sin to divide the body of
Christ, but there are times when an amputation has to
take place for the good of the body."

Williamson pointed out that around the time of the
Council of Nicaea the church fought for 56 years over
the issue of the divinity and humanity of Jesus
Christ. "I guess I'm really thankful," he said, "that
the faithful hung in there and that the truth
prevailed."

Henderson: "A lot of people in the church don't feel
called by God to make a choice on this issue. By
splitting we would force them to choose between two
sides."

Adee: "It's important to ask, 'Where is the church?'
Lots of people at the local level don't care as much
as we do about these divisive issues, and they're out
there doing mission. I think the body of Christ is
much more durable than we imagine."


__________________________________________________
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MORE LIGHT PRESBYTERIANS
http://www.mlp.org/presbyofcharlotte
March 2001 Gathering

ALL persons are invited and welcome to join us -
regardless of denominational affiliation, sexual
orientation, or gender identity!

WHEN:
Sunday, March 18th, 2001 at 5:30 - 8:00pm
(our monthly gathering is on the third Sunday of each
month)

LOCATION:
Plaza Presbyterian Church
2304 The Plaza
Charlotte, NC

PROGRAM:
- 5:30pm
Covered Dish Dinner: Bring a dish to share and join us
for fellowship!
- 6:30pm
Program: Personal stories shared followed by group
reflection.  Program leaders are Cullen and Gwen
Ferguson and Jeffrey Williams-Knight.  Program will
end at 8:00pm.

MISSION:
"The Charlotte area chapter of More Light
Presbyterians is a Christian ministry of advocacy,
outreach, support, and worship within the Presbyterian
Church (USA) for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender,
and straight people of faith!"

For additional information about us please see our
website at:
http://www.mlp.org/presbyofcharlotte

UPCOMING GATHERINGS:
(mark your calendars)
April 22nd at Seigle Avenue Presbyterian Church
May 20th at Seigle Avenue Presbyterian Church

CONTACT US:
704-358-8042
mlp-charlotte@yahoogroups.com
(let us know if you want to be added to our newletter
mailing list)

********
Please forward this announcement to other interested
persons or groups.  Thank you!

__________________________________________________
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Hello everyone, this month's version of Seigle's Third Sunday Dinner Group
(formerly referred to as YAG) will be held at my apartment in the Elizabeth
neighborhood.  We will be having cast iron skillet cooked pizza.  We will be
making both chicken and vegetable versions of the pizza.  Both will have an
olive oil and garlic sauce.

Please RSVP before Saturday so I can have an idea of how many people to cook
for.  Also, let me know if you can bring a salad, a dessert, some chips, or a
drink.  If you are unable to RSVP, or if you are unable to bring anything,
please come anyway!  Come one, come all!

DIRECTIONS:

From SAPC:

Take Seigle Avenue to the light at Tenth Street.  Go left on Tenth and proceed
to the second light (Hawthorne Avenue).  Go Right on Hawthorne and proceed over
the bridge that spans Independence.  Take a right on the first street after the
bridge (Eighth).  Take 8th Street 1/2 a block to Oakland and go right on
Oakland.  My apartment building is the last building on the left, and I am up
the stairs on the right:  525 Oakland #4.

From 277 Belk:

Exit 277 at "Kenilworth, Third, Fourth Street" Exit and stay to the left past
the Kenilworth ramp.  Proceed to the bottom of the left ramp and get in the
right lane.  At the light at the bottom of ramp (Third Street) go right. 
Proceed to the second light (Independence), and turn left.  Proceed to the third
light (Seventh Street) and turn right.  Take Seventh to the first light
(Hawthorne) and turn left.  Go 1 block to Eigth Street and turn left. Take 8th
Street 1/2 a block to Oakland and go right on Oakland.  My apartment building is
the last building on the left, and I am up the stairs on the right:  525 Oakland
#4.

From 277 Brookshire:

Take the College Street exit.  Proceed straight on Eleventh street after exiting
the interstate.  Follow Eleventh to the third light (or so) which is Davidson
Street.  Take a right on Davidson.  Follow Davidson to the first light after the
roundabout (Seventh Street).  Turn left on Seventh street. Take Seventh to the
fourth light (Hawthorne) and turn left.  Go 1 block to Eigth Street and turn
left. Take 8th Street 1/2 a block to Oakland and go right on Oakland.  My
apartment building is the last building on the left, and I am up the stairs on
the right:  525 Oakland #4.

Please contact me if you need directions from anywhere else in or around the
city.

Hope to see you Sunday!

Contact:
Matt Smith
525 Oakland Avenue #4
704-335-4170
mattsmith06@...

or

Kate Lustig
704-333-3368






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What:    LIKE A PRAYER exhibit  (viewing and discussing the art with facilitator
and partner group)

When:   Sunday, March 25th from 6:00-8:00 pm.

Where:    Spirit Square Galleries

Register:    Gloria.Spanjer@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

WHAT:               LIKE A PRAYER: A Jewish and Christian Presence in
Contemporary Art
                                   We will view art and discuss with facilitator
and partner group

WHERE:             Spirit Square

WHEN:               Sunday, March 18th from 2:00 - 4:00 (our partner will be
Piedmont Unitarian Universalists Church)
                                                and
                           Sunday March 25th from 6:00 - 8:00 (our partner will
be Friendship Missionary Singles group)

WHY:                 To stimulate an ongoing cross-demonitional conversation
about art, race and religion

TO REGISTER or GET MORE INFO:       E-mail Gloria.Spanjer@...  or
call her at 365-1372
                                                              or see any member
of ARTS MISSION GROUP



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey People,

I invite committee chairs and group or event organizers to go to our
Yahoo!Group site and enter event and dates for our church calendar.  Feel
free to enter committee meetings, fellowship events, etc...

Go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/seigleavenuepresbyterian

You may need to register for a Yahoo ID to access the calendar.  Just link
your new Yahoo ID with the email address that you receive your list mail in.

You can enter several types of details for events.  If you want a reminder
sent out for an event, besure to choose that option.

Peace,

JOHN MAYES

mail:  1020 Arosa Ave #5 Charlotte, NC 28203
voice:  704-358-8042
e-mail:  amayesd@...
Chat Name (AOL/MSN): amayesd


_________________________________________________________
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We've got 2 new studies beginning this week. This is a great time to
beginning coming to a bible study. You'll enjoy our awesome discussions and
getting to know others in our church family better.

ACES at Wonderful Wednesday -
(Bible study: 6:15-7:00pm. Dinner begins at 5:45)

Tom Lannin will begin a 3 week discussion on the book, Adam, Eve and the
Serpent. Reading the book is not a requirement!

ACES on Sunday Morning -
(Hope Building 9:45-10:30am)

On Sunday, March 11 Karen Williams will begin leading "Please Help Me, God!"
(Series will continue March 18, 25 and April 1)

If your prayers often take this form, consider joining our discussions about
talking to God in more meaningful ways.  We'll consider the attitude and
power of prayer.  The group will study different approaches to communication
with God.  You'll be invited to reflect on the impact of prayer in your own
life and to think about its purpose and place in your family, church and
community. And, of course, we'll spend time together in prayer.

Are you an ACE? The ACES committee is interested in expanding. Would you like
to be part of this DYNAMIC committee? Are you interested in exploring
subjects that would aid the spiritual walk of adults in our community? Talk
to Beth Lindsey, David McGuirt or Beth Whitehead if this calls to you!!

For more information regarding any ACES events: Contact the church office
(338-1914) or Beth Whitehead (442-0586 or Bethw555@...).

PLEASE NOTE THE FOLLOWING CORRECTION TO OUR CALENDAR!

The April meeting date is April 22nd not April 29th!

SPRING CALENDAR - 2001
________
APRIL

22nd - Sunday (not 3rd Sunday)
APRIL MLP GATHERING
Seigle Avenue Presbyterian
832 Seigle Ave Charlotte NC
4:30 pm - Steering Committee Mtg.
5:30 pm - Covered Dish Dinner
6:30 pm - Program: A minister’s changed view on
homosexuality!


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REFLECTIONS Newsletter
More Light Presbyterians of Charlotte, NC

A Ministry in Greater Charlotte among Lesbian, Gay,
Bisexual, and Transgender Persons and the Presbyterian
Church (USA)

www.mlp.org/presbyofcharlotte

Volume 1, Issue 1 - Spring 2001

Inside this Issue:
“More Light” means?
Our Mission
Hope Notes
Chapter Leadership
Resources
Sexual Ethics
Spring 2001 Calendar

********

WHAT DOES "MORE LIGHT" MEAN?

Michael Adee, the National Field Coordinator for More
Light Presbyterians, recently led a program for the
newly formed Charlotte chapter.  In clarifying our
organizations name and its meaning he stated that, as
More Light Presbyterians, we are not claiming to have
more light.  Instead, we are seeking to be open to
God’s constant revelation to us through the Holy
Spirit (ie. open to receiving “more light”).
________

"We limit not the truth of God to our poor reach of
mind -- by notions of our day and sect -- crude,
partial and confined. No, let a new and better hope
within our hearts be stirred, for God hath yet
more light and truth to break forth from the Word."
-- from Pastor John Robinson's sendoff sermon to the
Pilgrims, 1620; paraphrased in a hymn by George Rawson
(1807-1889)
________

Pastor John Robinson (see quote on left) recognized,
in sending pilgrims to the new world, that God’s
nature is to continually reveal God’s Truth to us
through the changing circumstances in our world.
Indeed, change provides new perceptions and new
perspectives through which we better understand God.

As the history of the church and our own denomination
testify, we as God’s faithful have repeatedly become
complacent in our traditions out of deep fear of
change.  Centuries ago the institution of the church
and its theological securities were shaken by
scientific findings which challenged historical
interpretations of scripture that told us of our very
place in the cosmos.  Within the last 150 years, we
have been shaken again in our theological views of
slavery and the role of women.  Our Biblical
understanding has been challenged by the shifting
social fabric around us.
________

“Now we see but a poor reflection in a mirror; then we
shall see face to face.  Now I know in part; then I
shall know fully, even as I am fully known.”
-- I Corinthians 13: 12
________

Has scripture been wrong?  Has God lied to us?  No!
It is our understanding that is but a poor reflection.
It is our interpretations that have needed correction.
  It is our arrogance that has lied to us.  Our belief
that we firmly know God’s Word, that we possess the
ability to inerrantly interpret and apply its meaning,
is based in a false security and a lack of faith in
the Creator of all things.  Indeed, to believe that we
have “more light” is arrogant.

God has repeatedly challenged us in the midst of our
fears and prejudices. As Presbyterians, heirs to the
reformed theological tradition, we believe that God is
the God of history.  We are witness to God’s
faithfulness to people throughout the generations and
can recognize God’s hand in continually reshaping our
understanding.  Historically, we are reformed and
always reforming.

What is God doing?  How big is God’s love?  Where is
God leading us?  Could it be that God wants to be the
Sheppard who leads us through the valley of our worst
fears, our time honored traditions, and our deeply
held prejudices to the banquet table where all are
welcome?  It is this understanding to which we
subscribe, and it is this boundless love which we wish
to reflect to all of God’s world as More Light
Presbyterians.

By John Mayes and Steve Drinkard

NOTE: “Reflections” as the title of this Newsletter
has been chosen with this use of “More Light” in mind.
  As a ministry, we do not claim to be the source or
possessors of God’s light, but merely seekers and
reflectors of it.

********

OUR MISSION

"Following the risen Christ, and seeking to make the
Church a true community of hospitality, the mission of
More Light Presbyterians is to work for the full
participation of lesbian, gay, bisexual and
transgender (LGBT) people of faith in the life,
ministry and witness of the Presbyterian Church
(USA)."

Chapter Mission

The Charlotte area chapter of More Light Presbyterians
is a Christian ministry of advocacy, outreach,
support, and worship within the Presbyterian Church
(USA) for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender,  and
straight people of faith!

We will provide LGBT persons, church leaders,
non-churched persons, Presbyterians, and other
Christians with:

ADVOCACY by regularly distributing news and
information regarding the LGBT Christian experience
(presented in a  format for all persons - affirming
and non-affirming) to all churches in our region.  We
seek to form a MLP Charlotte speakers bureau and
resource network.

OUTREACH by connecting with LGBT persons who have been
disenfranchised from the church, to help them
recognize and find healing among the affirming
Christian community.  We will make use of news
services, business cards, individual mailings, a
newsletter, and most importantly, personal forms of
contact (each one reach one).

SUPPORT by providing a regular forum for individual
sharing to take place in small groups (6 to 8 people).
  We intend to use guided discussion on important
issues by church leaders, parents, LGBT persons, and
others in diversely mixed groups.

WORSHIP by providing a periodic community-wide worship
with broad outreach to the ecumenical church and the
LGBT community at-large.  Worship elements will be
included in monthly meetings in the form of opening
devotionals, prayers and a time of sharing concerns to
be included in a closing prayer. We also intend to
provide local congregations with resources for
meaningful and inclusive worship.

MLP Charlotte intends to enhance its ministry by
making use of other  Christian, LGBT, and Social
Services resources.

Adopted January 2001

********

HOPE NOTES

Inspiring words that challenge, encourage, and comfort
those who question and/or struggle:

“For I am persuaded, that neither death nor life, nor
angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things
present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth,
nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us
from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus."
-- Romans 8:38-39

"Then let us not be judges of one another any longer:
but keep this in mind, that no one is to make it hard
for their brother or sister, or give them cause for
doubting.  I am conscious of this, and am certain in
the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself; but
for the one in whose opinion it is unclean, for them
it is unclean."
-- Romans 14:13-14

Hope Notes Website
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hopenotes

********

CHAPTER LEADERSHIP

1. Jeannie Barker - Plaza PC
2. Steve Drinkard - Seigle Avenue PC
3. Pamela Eliason - Johnson Memorial PC
4. Gwen & Cullen Ferguson - South Mecklenburg PC
5. John Mayes - Seigle Avenue PC
6. Felicia Pine - Selwyn Avenue PC
7. Bill Strong - Davidson College PC
8. Jeffrey Williams-Knight - Seigle Avenue PC

CONTACT US!

Please contact MLP Charlotte for additional
information, to be added to our mailing list, and/or
to join.  Address corrections requested!

1020 Arosa Avenue # 5
Charlotte, North Carolina 28203

704-358-8042

Printed copies of this newsletter or other information
handouts are available on request for distribution to
your group or congregation.

http://www.mlp.org/presbyofcharlotte


mlpcharlotte-owner@yahoogroups.com

********

RESOURCES

Books:

These recommended books are a few of those available
on loan from MLP’s Steering Committee:

“What We Wish We Had Known” - The First Tuesday Group
of The Presbyterian Church Mt. Kisco NY, 2001
(free copies available on request)

"Reconciling the Broken Silence: The Church in
Dialogue on Gay and Lesbian Issues"
Presbyterian Publishing House, 1993

"What the Bible Really Says about Homosexuality"
Daniel A. Helminiak, PhD, Alamo Square Press, 1995
http://www.visionsofdaniel.com

"Prayers for Bobby - A Mother’s Coming to Terms with
the Suicide of her Gay Son" - Leroy Aarons, Harper
Collins, 1995

"Stranger at the Gate"
Mel White, Plume Penguine Books, 1995

“The Word is Out: Daily Reflections on the Bible for
Lesbians and Gay Men”
Chris Glaser, Westminster John Knox Press, 1994

Websites:

http://www.bridges-across.org
Provides resources for building relationships of
respect among those who disagree about sexuality
issues.

http://www.whosoever.org
An online magazine for LGBT Christians.

http://www.soulforce.org
A network of friends learning non-violence from Gandhi
and King seeking justice for God’s LGBT children.

********

SEXUAL ETHICS

"More Light Presbyterians envisions that Christian
sexual ethics marked by covenantal fidelity shall be
the standard for all Presbyterians, irrespective of
sexual orientation."
-- Statement of Sexual Ethics Adopted by MLP Board
1999

Trusting that God’s Spirit is at work making all
things new, we are invited to delight in God’s
creation including our bodies and sexualities, to
confess our sin when this sacred gift is misused, and
to take responsibility for restoring relationships
toward healing and justice.

Sexuality is God’s amazing, life-enhancing gift that
includes genital sex but refers more broadly to our
capacity and longing for intimate connection and
mutually pleasurable, mutually respectful touch.
Throughout our lives we humans seek physical,
emotional, and spiritual embrace of others. Our desire
and energy for bonding is to be used responsibly to
communicate love, respect, and tender regard. This
power may also be misused to harm, control, or
exploit.

Some traditional Christian attitudes have expressed
suspicion about the body, fear of sex and passion, and
an interest in controlling women, their bodies and
their procreative power. Patriarchal norms have
legitimated male ownership of women and children. Gay
men, lesbian women, bisexual and transgender people
have been devalued and denied full participation in
church and society. The church has often failed to
take seriously sexual violence, abuse, and coercion
that cause enormous suffering, including sexual
misconduct and abuse of power by its own leaders. Too
often, when it comes to sex and matters of sexual
injustice, the church has either reinforced our
cultural negativity or maintained a deafening silence.

To speak a word of hope and communicate the good news
of the Gospel, MLP boldly promotes an ethic of sexual
justice that affirms the goodness of sexuality, honors
sexual diversity, respect for sexual minorities, and
attends to the socio-political as well as personal
dimensions of sexual injustice, abuse, and
exploitation. In particular, we maintain that
sexuality is an indispensable component of our
humanity and vital to spiritual integrity and
well-being. Each person, regardless of gender, sexual
orientation or bodily condition has a moral right to
love and be loved, as well as a responsibility to
express his or her sexuality in ways genuinely
respectful of self and others.

The renewal of Christian sexual ethics depends on a
break with the notion that there is a singular, ideal
sexuality and that those abiding by this standard
should police and control others. An ethic grounded in
love of God and neighbor as one’s whole self will
value the bodily integrity of every person and honor
the variety of ways in which people live sexually
whole, morally responsible, and spiritually faithful
lives. This ethic focuses on things that matter,
including the dignity and worth of every person, the
right to accurate knowledge about human sexuality, a
single ethical standard for intimate relations, and
the recognition that commitment, fidelity, and
integrity are fundamental to all relationships of
moral substance.

********

SPRING CALENDAR - 2001
________
MARCH

18th - Sunday
MARCH MLP GATHERING
Plaza Presbyterian
2304 The Plaza Charlotte NC
4:30 pm - Steering Committee Mtg.
5:30 pm - Covered Dish Dinner
6:30 pm - Program: Personal stories shared with group
refections.

- also -

24th - Sunday
Time Out Youth Auction
First Union Atrium Uptown Charlotte
6:30 pm - Silent Auction
8:00 pm - Live Auction
________
APRIL

29th - Sunday (not 3rd Sunday)
APRIL MLP GATHERING
Seigle Avenue Presbyterian
832 Seigle Ave Charlotte NC
4:30 pm - Steering Committee Mtg.
5:30 pm - Covered Dish Dinner
6:30 pm - Program: A minister’s changed view on
homosexuality!

- also -

1st - Sunday
Lutherans Concerned Tulip Party
229 Boyce Road Charlotte NC
1:00 pm - Benefit for terminally ill.

19th - Thursday
Judy Sheppard Speaks
University of NC Charlotte, Cone Center
3:00 & 7:00 pm - Forum & Presentation

28th - Saturday
Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner?
First Union Atrium Uptown Charlotte
5:00 pm - AIDS Fundraiser by MAP
________
MAY

20th - Sunday
MAY MLP GATHERING
Seigle Avenue Presbyterian
832 Seigle Ave Charlotte NC
4:30 pm - Steering Committee Mtg.
5:30 pm - Covered Dish Dinner
6:30 pm - Program: Facilitated dialogue on LGBT
spiritual issues.

- also -

25th - 27th - Weekend
The National MLP Conference
St. Andrews Presbyterian Austin TX
More info at http://www.mlp.org
________
LITURGICAL CALENDAR

Lent - begins February 28th
Palm Sunday - April 8th
Maundy Thursday - April 12th
Good Friday - April 13th
Easter Sunday - April 15th
________
CHRISTIAN LGBT GROUPS

More Light Presbyterians
Third Sunday of each month
5:30 - 8:00 pm (changing location)

Lutherans Concerned
First Sunday of each month
5:00 pm at Holy Trinity Lutheran

Gay Men's Spiritual Direction Group
Fourth Wednesday of each month
7:00 pm at St. Anne's Catholic

********

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond
nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are
all one in Christ Jesus.”

Galatians 3:28

********

- END OF NEWSLETTER -

NOTE:
Printed copies of this newsletter will be mailed and
distributed soon to the following:
1. MLP Charlotte Members
2. Churches/Leaders in Charlotte Presbytery
3. National/Regional MLP Leaders
4. Organizations in the GayCharlotte Community

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FROM: The Charlotte Observer
http://www.charlotte.com/

Area Presbyterians vote to keep out same-sex unions
By MARK PRICE

The Presbytery of Charlotte, representing 138 local
churches and 43,600 people, decided Tuesday to support
an amendment to keep same-sex unions out of the
nation's Presbyterian churches.

Specifically, the gathering of clergy and elders voted
167 to 124 in favor of amending the constitution of
the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) to forbid ministers
to preside over gay unions at church facilities.

The proposal - known as Amendment O - states that God
intends marriage to involve a man and a woman.
Therefore: "Church property shall not be used for, and
church officers shall not take part in conducting, any
ceremony or event that pronounces blessing or gives
approval of the church or invokes the blessing of God
upon any relationship that is inconsistent with God's
intention."

The denomination's General Assembly approved the
amendment last June, but it must first be ratified by
a majority - at least 87 - of the nation's 173
presbyteries. So far, 50 have voted in favor of it, 72
against.

An impassioned but polite debate preceded Tuesday's
vote at Myers Park Presbyterian Church. Speakers in
favor of the amendment were opposed to the idea of
homosexuality being accepted as a proper Christian
lifestyle. Those against had broader concerns,
including the idea that it limits who ministers can
pray for and bless, while also dictating what
congregations can do in their own church.

Early indications are that the amendment will lose on
a national level, says Jerry Van Marter, director of
the Presbyterian News Service.

"It doesn't even mention same-sex unions," he says.
"If it did mention them, it would likely pass. But in
the effort to be politically correct, they fuzzed up
the language and that added unintended implications. A
lot are voting against it for that reason."




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Theme: Laughter brings things into perspective!

On laughing at ourselves

Sometimes the best spiritual medicine for a hurting
soul or a divided community is laughter, especially
laughter at ourselves. When we take ourselves too
seriously and our focus becomes too narrow it often
helps to gain some perpective on things.

In these days when our churches and denominations
debate what to say or not to say, what to legislate
and what not to legislate, as well as how to interpret
and how not to interpret … I am reminded of the
slippery, often unintended uses of words.  Often our
debate on scripture, on church law, and even on the
terms of the debate get bogged down in words and what
they mean.

It makes me hear the word of Christ on the cross a bit
differently sometimes … “Forgive them for they know
not what they do.”  Indeed, sometimes we don’t know
what we say.  We don’t realize what we say, how others
might here us, or how our words might be understood
now or later.

Indeed, without a doubt, sometimes our words hurt
others ... intended or not, but sometimes our
seriousness comes across in pure silliness too.  May
God bless us this day with the gift of laughter and
perspective!

- John Mayes, 2/26/2001

****

Church Bulletin Bloopers

The following are words shared among communities of
faith that might not be read and understood the way
they were intended.  These sentences actually appeared
in a church bulletin or were announced in a church
service.  Enjoy … and take a moment to laugh at
ourselves!

> Bertha Belch, a missionary from Africa will be
speaking tonight at Calvary Memorial Church in Racine.
Come tonight and hear Bertha Belch all the way from
Africa.

> Announcement in the church bulletin for a National
PRAYER & FASTING Conference: "The cost for attending
the Fasting and Prayer conference includes meals."

> Miss Charlene Mason sang "I will not pass this way
again" giving obvious pleasure to the congregation.

> "Ladies, don't forget the rummage sale. It's a
chance to get rid of those things not worth keeping
around the house. Don't forget your husbands."

> Next Sunday is the family hay ride and bonfire at
the Fowlers'. Bring your own hot dogs and guns.
Friends are welcome! Everyone come for a fun time.

> The peacemaking meeting scheduled for today has been
canceled due to a conflict.

> The sermon this morning: "Jesus Walks on the Water"
The sermon tonight: "Searching for Jesus"

> Next Thursday there will be tryouts for the choir.
They need all the help they can get.

> Barbara remains in the hospital and needs blood
donors for more transfusions. She is also having
trouble sleeping and requests tapes of Pastor Jack's
sermons.

> During the absence of our Pastor, we enjoyed the
rare privilege of hearing a good sermon when J.F.
Stubs supplied our pulpit.

> The Rector will preach his farewell message after
which the choir will sing "Break Forth into Joy."

> Remember in prayer the many who are sick of our
community.

> Don't let worry kill you off --let the Church help.

> Irving Benson and Jessie Carter were married on
October 24 in the church. So ends a friendship that
began in their school days.

> A bean supper will be held on Tuesday evening in the
church hall. Music will follow.

> At the evening service tonight, the sermon topic
will be "What is Hell?" Come early and listen to our
choir practice.

> Eight new choir robes are needed due to the addition
of several new members and to the deterioration of
some older ones.

> The senior choir invites any member of the
congregation who enjoys sinning to join the choir.

> Scouts are saving aluminum cans, bottles, and other
items to be recycled. Proceeds will be used to cripple
children.

> For those of you who have children and don't know
it, we have a nursery downstairs.

> Please place your donation in the envelope along
with the deceased person(s) you want remembered.

> Attend and you will hear an excellent speaker and
heave a healthy lunch.

> The church will host an evening of fine dining
superb entertainment and gracious hostility.

> Potluck supper Sunday at 5:00 PM.--prayer and
medication to follow.

> The ladies of the Church have cast off clothing of
every kind. They may be seen in the basement on Friday
afternoon.

> This evening at 7 P.M. there will be a hymn sing in
the park across from the Church. Bring a blanket and
come prepared to sin.

> Ladies Bible Study will be held Thursday morning at
10. All ladies are invited to lunch in the Fellowship
Hall after the B.S. is done.

> The pastor would appreciate it if the ladies of the
congregation would lend him their electric girdles for
the pancake breakfast next Sunday morning.

> Low Self Esteem Support Group will meet Thursday at
7 PM. Please use the back door.

> The eighth-graders will be presenting Shakespeare's
Hamlet in the Church basement Friday at 7 PM. The
Congregation is invited to attend this tragedy.

> Weight Watchers will meet at 7 PM at the First
Presbyterian Church. Please use large double door at
the side entrance.

> Our next song is "Angels We Have Heard Get High.”


*********

Supportive Website of Interest:
http://www.inspiritus.myweb.nl/
Inspiritus - Let us therefore in-spire one another
with love, friendship, humor, hope and wisdom. This
site is my little attempt to do so. Enjoy, have fun
and be blessed ! Jochem


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Hey People,

PRESBYTERY OF CHARLOTTE - PCUSA
http://www.presbyofcharlotte.com

Voted on Amendment O
Tuesday, February 27th, 2001

For - 167
Against - 124

Margin of 43

Amendment O was therefore supported by this
Presbytery.  Charlotte Presbytery therefore showed its
support for prohibiting ordained persons and church
property from participating in the blessing of
relationships that are not strictly defined by the
marriage of a man and a woman.

Vote followed over an hour of debate including a fair
amount of discussion on just proceedure.

PROCEEDURE
Proceedure discussion revolved around requiring
speakers to declare a pro or con stance before
speaking rather than having the alternative to remain
neutral.  Proceedure discussion also revolved around
the requirement for a standing vote.  The Pro/Con
stance requirement was waived so that persons could
speak to the amendment without declaring a side.
After a motion was made to request a paper ballot vote
was rejected, the vote WAS taken as a standing vote
and NOT by paper ballot.

AMENDMENT DEBATE
Debate on the Amendment was generally civil and many
of the usual points were raised on both sides, so I
wont go into it here.  Two speakers from each side
were given 4 minutes each to address the meeting, then
random speakers were given 2 minutes each to speak to
the amendment.  Debate was fairly balanced considering
those who declared a side in their statements.

SPEAKERS
Many clergy spoke against the amendment including Doug
Oldenburg, Tom Tate, Steve Caddell, Caroline Craig,
Frank Mayes, Pamela Eliason, Angus MacGregor, and
more.  There were also many clergy that spoke in favor
of the amendment.  Many elders spoke on both sides.
Speakers were silenced before all speakers got to
speak on both sides.

More will follow from local members of MLP, the
Presbytery, and the local news.

Peace,

=====
JOHN MAYES
mail:  1020 Arosa Ave #5 Charlotte, NC 28203
voice:  704-358-8042
e-mail:  amayesd@...
Chat Name (AOL/MSN): amayesd
Web: http://home.att.net/~amayesd

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Hey People,

Clarification on my last post ...

More Light Presbyterians of Charlotte is encouraging
all interested persons to be present to witness the
vote (and participate if a commissioner) on Amendment
O next week.  The presence of all interested persons
is important so that we all understand the processes
governing our denomination and have the opportunity to
hear first hand the concerns expressed by bothsides of
the issue of LGBT concerns in the church.

Nonetheless, MLP is NOT planning any sort of organized
presence or "lobbying" at the upcoming Presbytery
meeting.  As I understand it, we have chosen not to be
officially present because we feel it would be
disrespectful and disingenuous to ...

1. the process and leadership that is in place

2. the commissioners and their call to vote their
conscience in light of their faith in Jesus Christ

and

3. our own cause of seeking the full inclusing of LGBT
persons in our denomination

I hope this helps, and I hope to see many of you at
the Presbytery meeting as we all seek to listen and
learn.

Peace,
John

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PRESBYTERY OF CHARLOTTE
NEXT PRESBYTERY MEETING VOTE ON AMENDMENT O
A Prohibition on "Holy Unions"

Tuesday, February 27th, 2001 - 9:00am - 4:00pm

Location: Myers Park Presbyterian Church

Vote by our Presbytery on the Issue of "Holy Unions".
The proposed Amendment would prohibit "Holy Unions" in
the Presbyterian Church.  MLP is planning a presence
at  this gathering and we welcome all who would stand
in solidarity with us against this amendment.

Contact the Presbytery Office at 704-535-9999 for the
specific time slot in this meeting for the discussion
and vote on Amendment O.

Please note that the proposed proceedure for dialogue
and vote on this Amendment is found at the end of this
document.

Please provide the following information to
commissioners from your congregation.  Thank you!

Information Sources
Some good information sources on Amendment O are as
follows.  Please note that affirming sources are those
who support full inclusion of LGBT persons and
non-affirming are those opposed to it.  Those who
support full inclusion are opposed to Amendment O, but
others who might otherwise be non-affirming oppose
Amendment O for other reasons which are explained on
these websites and in the document below.

Text of Amendment O
http://www.horeb.pcusa.org/oga/ProposedAmendments/W49007.htm

Neutral - www.presbyweb.com
Affirming - www.covenantnetwork.org
Non-Affirming - www.presbyterianstogether.org

Details and Issues surrounding the Amendment -
http://www.mlp.org/resources/amo.html
http://www.covenantnetwork.org/00-Oresources.html
http://www.presbyterianstogether.org/
http://www.presbyweb.com/Discussions/Amendment00-
O/Index.htm

Current Votes -
http://www.presbyweb.com/VotesOnA-B-O.html

****

Amendment O Information - mostly provided by the
Covenant Network (working to support full inclusion of
LGBT persons in the life of the church)

(Please note: This information was provided to ACES
Adult Education Class at Seigle Avenue Presbyterian
Church on Wednesday as part of their ongoing series on
Homosexuality and Christianity!)

I invite you to go to these sources to read more about
the varying perspectives on the issue of homosexuality
in the Presbyterian Church (USA).  Please share these
resources with others in our church and denomination.

FROM THE STATED CLERKS OFFICE OF THE GA

Association of Stated Clerks - November 2000
Official description
On Adding New Section W-4.9007 Prohibiting Same-Sex
Unions

Committee and General Assembly action
General Assembly Committee on Physical and Spiritual
Well-Being Committee Vote: 25/22/0.
General Assembly Action: Approved the committee’s
recommendation

Background
In November 1999, the Permanent Judicial Commission of
the synod of the Northeast in the case of Benton v.
Presbytery of Hudson River decided that “the
constitution of the Presbyterian Church (USA) does not
prohibit same-sex unions that are not the same as
marriage. …” This ruling was, in substance, affirmed
just prior to the General Assembly meeting by the
General Assembly Permanent Judicial Commission. This
overture is the response to the PJC’s determination
that the constitution would need to be amended for a
different result to apply.

Arguments supporting approval
· The blessing of God on sexual relationships in the
Bible is mentioned only in context between a man and a
woman.
· Same-sex unions diminish the Christian understanding
of marriage (W-4.9004).
· Confessional standards already include “the
requirement to live either in fidelity within the
covenant of marriage between a man and a woman or
chastity in singleness” (G-6.0106b).
· Blessing a same-sex union implies the church’s
approval of conduct which the Scriptures and our
confessions call sin.
· The church should speak against the confusion of our
time. Celebrating unions between people of the same
sex contributes to the confusion.

Arguments against approval
· The addition of the amendment would interfere with
pastoral care and freedom in an unprecedented manner.
· The church should be able to trust pastors and
sessions to act appropriately in situations in which
there is cause for blessing such a union.
· The amendment intrudes on the power and duty of
sessions to determine uses of church property. See
Book of Order G-10-0102o.
· The addition of the amendment further divides the
church.
· The amendment is inconsistent with the PCUSA’s
policy of acceptance of all persons into membership in
the church. Denial of this blessing creates a category
of second-class members.

Implications
If the amendment is approved, no church officer
(minister, elder, or deacon) will be able to take part
in conducting a ceremony that blesses a union that is
not a covenant of marriage between a man and a woman,
nor will church property be able to be used for such a
ceremony.

FROM PRESBYWEB
www.presbyweb.com

Voting Compared with official results on "B" and "A"

Amendment B (96/97):  97 -  74
The fidelity & chastity requirement for ordained
church officers, adopted in 96/97 and now part of the
Book of Order as G-6.0106b:

"Those who are called to office in the church are to
lead a life in obedience to Scripture and in
conformity to the historic confessional standards of
the church. Among these standards is the requirement
to live either in fidelity within the covenant of
marriage between a man and a woman (W-4.9001), or
chastity in singleness. Persons refusing to repent of
any self-acknowledged practice which the confessions
call sin shall not be ordained and/or installed as
deacons, elders, or ministers of the Word and
Sacrament."

Amendment A (97/98) :  57 -  114
This Amendment was the attempt in 97/98 to remove
G-6.0106b again from the Book of Order. It failed.

Amendment O (00/01) :  ?
If ratified by a majority (87) of the 173
presbyteries, the following paragraph will be inserted
in the Directory of Worship of the Book of Order as
W.49007:

“Scripture and our Confessions teach that God’s
intention for all people is to live either in fidelity
within the covenant of marriage between a man and a
woman or in chastity in singleness. Church property
shall not be used for, and church officers shall not
take part in conducting, any ceremony or event that
pronounces blessing or gives approval of the church or
invokes the blessing of God upon any relationship that
is inconsistent with God’s intention as expressed in
the preceding sentence.”

The Voting Proceedure
The result of the vote is determined by "a majority of
the votes cast."  Only "yes" and "no" votes (or
similar wordings) are valid; all other votes
(including "no action" and "abstention") are not valid
and should not be counted among the "votes cast".
However, if a presbytery votes to take "no action" on
an amendment, the vote is recorded here as a negative
one, since each amendment needs an affirmative vote of
a majority of all presbyteries for its adoption, and
therefore in this case "no action" has the same effect
as voting "no".

Votes on Amendment O reported as of 2/20/01 - 104
(60%)

Results thus far - 37 yes - 67 no

Required for passing - 87

Number of presbyteries that switched from yes on "B"
to no on "O" - 17

Number of presbyteries that switched from no on "B" to
yes on "O" - 3

Number of presbyteries that voted on "O" as they did
on "B" - 84

If all remaining presbyteries would vote on "O" as
they did on "B", the result would be about - 84 yes -
89 no

FROM THE COVENANT NETWORK
www.covenantnetwork.org

The Covenant Network Reflections on Amendment 00-O

Text and meaning
Proposed Amendment 00-O: Shall W-4.9007 be added to
the Book of Order to read as follows: [text to be
added to the Directory for Worship]
Scripture and our Confessions teach that God's
intention for all people is to live either in fidelity
within the covenant of marriage between a man and a
woman or in chastity in singleness. Church property
shall not be used for, and church officers shall not
take part in conducting, any ceremony or event that
pronounces blessing or gives approval of the church or
invokes the blessing of God upon any relationship that
is inconsistent with God's intention as expressed in
the preceding sentence.

The title of Amendment 00-O, taken by the OGA directly
from the designation by the Presbytery of San Joaquin
(which sent the original overture), is "On Adding New
Section W-4.9007 Prohibiting Same-Sex Unions."
However, the wording of the proposed amendment goes
far beyond a simple prohibition of same-gender
commitment services to include all forms of blessing
of any relationship outside of traditional marriage
(including older adults in committed relationships who
would face economic hardship if legally married, and
weddings for heterosexual couples who have been living
together prior to marriage); it could be called the
Ministry Gag Order or Limits on Prayer or Prohibition
of Worship Amendment.

History
1991 -- Authoritative Interpretation by the 203rd
General Assembly stated:

There is no mention in the Book of Order of same sex
unions (ceremonies). If a same sex ceremony were
considered to be the equivalent of a marriage ceremony
between two persons of the same sex, it would not be
sanctioned under the Book of Order. In section
W-4.9001, Christian marriage is specifically defined
as:
[A] covenant through which a man and a woman are
called to live out together before God their lives of
discipleship. In a service of Christian marriage[,] a
lifelong commitment is made by a woman and a man to
each other, publicly witnessed and acknowledged by the
community of faith.

Inasmuch the session is responsible and accountable
for determination of the appropriate use of the church
buildings and facilities (G-10.0102n), it should not
allow the use of the church facilities for a same sex
union ceremony that the session determines to be the
same as a marriage ceremony.

Likewise, since a Christian marriage performed in
accordance with the Directory for Worship can only
involve a covenant between a woman and a man, it would
not be proper for a minister of the Word and Sacrament
to perform a same sex union ceremony that the minister
determines to be the same as a marriage ceremony .

1993 -- The General Assembly rejected overtures
designed to prohibit blessing of same-sex
relationships. The Advisory Committee on the
Constitution advised the GA at that time that "It is
highly irregular and extraordinary for the Book of
Order to forbid a minister of the Word and Sacrament
from certain activities."

1994 --GA passed a proposed amendment, but it was
defeated by the presbyteries.

2000 -- The Permanent Judicial Commission, basing its
decision on the 1991 policy, re-affirmed that
same-gender commitment services must be distinguished
from marriages, but lifted up the numerous portions of
the Directory for Worship which "affirm the value of
worship services in the practice of pastoral care and
give great latitude to ministers and sessions in
addressing the pastoral care of members."

2000 -- The 212th General Assembly narrowly passed
Overture 00-26, sending to the presbyteries Amendment
00-O.

Understanding the arguments for Amendment 00-O
Those who are most adamantly opposed to covenantal
ceremonies for same-gender couples are convinced that
Scripture condemns all homosexual behavior as sinful,
and that holy unions are an assault on the institution
of marriage. For them, any blessing of a same-sex
relationship by the Church compromises the Church's
public witness and seems to radically threaten their
worldview, which includes an almost mystical
understanding of marriage:
· "For the Church to pronounce God's blessing on a
relationship that is counterfeit of the real thing is
tantamount to blasphemy."
· "The Church's sacred rites are inherently
typological, i.e., taking an earthly form as a sign of
a heavenly reality."
· "Only God's chosen marriage can serve his salvific
purposes, and those covenants that are not according
to his design will serve as vehicles for a false
spirituality."
· "To endorse same-sex marriage is at heart a
rebellion against his most gracious rule."
(Stephen H. Noll, Two Sexes, One Flesh: Why the Church
Cannot Bless Same-Sex Unions)

Our immediate aim in defeating 00-O is not to have the
Presbyterian Church endorse holy unions, but merely to
preserve the pastoral discretion provided by the
status quo. Because the PC(USA)'s current policy is
based upon a distinction between marriage between a
man and a woman and the blessing of a same-sex
relationship, it is strategically preferable not to
argue for same-sex marriage. When the issue is raised,
respond with the PJC ruling which makes a clear
distinction between marriage and the blessing of
loving, committed same-sex relationships.

Their biblical argument is essentially:
· The Bible has only one definition of marriage, and
any sexual expression outside that definition is
immoral without exception [conveniently ignoring much
of the biblical witness].
· The Bible consistently declares homosexual acts to
be unnatural, illegal, and immoral [failing to apply
the most basic Reformed principles of scriptural
interpretation].
· The Bible doesn't mention same-sex marriage.
· Therefore, the Bible forbids same-sex marriage and
all homosexual behavior -- end of discussion.
Arguments against the proposed amendment:

Note: We are not talking about marriage. If those in
favor of the amendment raise the issue, respond with
the recent PJC ruling, cited above, which makes a
clear distinction between marriage and the blessing of
loving, committed same-sex relationships.

POLITY
(Freedom of pastors to provide pastoral care, of
Sessions to determine use of building, etc.)

* The Amendment violates the Presbyterian Church's
longstanding tradition of pastoral and Session
responsibility and discretion in ordering worship and
pastoral care.

* Micromanaging from afar violates our tradition. The
governing body most closely related to circumstances
is to be the decision-maker. What else will we be told
we cannot do?

* Our polity at its best is based on trust, not
control.

*The proposal abridges the historic right of the
Session to determine "the appropriate use of church
buildings and facilities" (G-10.0102o). Since other
ministries of the church to gay, lesbian, bisexual and
transgender persons are likely to include an "event
that pronounces blessing or gives approval of the
church or invokes the blessing of God" upon their
relationships, they would also be prohibited, along
with the use of the property by some outside groups to
which Sessions offer hospitality.

* Current policy is permissive, but permission to
conduct services does not require any Pastor and
Session to do them.

* The proposed Amendment places another conflict in
the Book of Order, because of the many places in the
Directory for Worship which lift up worship and
pastoral care as a pastoral and Session
responsibility. [Read from your Book of Order when you
speak!]
· W-4.1000 = special occasions and transitions in the
life of the congregation and its members which are
appropriately recognized in worship
Boundaries have been established by the GA PJC in its
recent ruling distinguishing between these services
and marriage.
· W-3.6201 = governing bodies responsible for worship
in special gatherings
· W-6.2002 = Christian nurture offered by church
· W-6.3000 = pastoral care
· W-6.3010 = care in transitions of life
· W-6.3011 = pastoral care through worship
· W-6.4000 = "Pastoral Care": worship in community is
foundation for pastoral care and nurture in faith
· W-4.1001 = services for special occasions
· W-1.4002 = "Responsibility and Accountability for
Worship"
· W-1.4008 = accountable to presbytery. Accountability
is defined not as enforcement of rules, but as
initiation of conversation
· W-3.1000 = ordering of worship

*Look at the other amendments from the 212th GA --
most provide for more flexibility for decision-making
bodies, not less.

PASTORAL
(This should be about ministry, not politics)
* The proposed amendment seriously impedes a wide
range of ministries, not only to gay and lesbian
members and families, but to numbers of others whose
relationships are "inconsistent" with "fidelity within
the covenant of marriage between a man and a woman or
chastity in singleness." Can we not include
non-traditional families in the weekly rotation of
families for whom we pray? Baptize a child of a
same-gender couple, or a single mom? Pray for a
surviving partner after a death, or acknowledge with
gratitude the relationship during the funeral?
Proponents claim that the amendment does not intend
this type of prohibition, but the clear words lead to
that conclusion -- we "shall not take part in
conducting any ceremony or event that pronounces
blessing or gives approval of the church or invokes
the blessing of God" on relationships other than
heterosexual marriage.

* Supporting one another's relationships and
commitments is one of the most important functions of
the community of faith; a vital aspect of worship is
celebrating, together. The Directory for Worship is
full of encouragement to take seriously the needs of
parishioners' lives in their particularity (see the
citations above). C67 describes the roles of the
church thus:

The church gathers to praise God, to hear [God's] word
for humankind, to baptize and to join in the Lord's
Supper, to pray for and present the world to [God] in
worship, to enjoy fellowship, to receive instruction,
strength, and comfort, . . . to be tested, renewed,
and reformed, and to speak and act in the world's
affairs as may be appropriate to the needs of the
time. (9.36)

* The Book of Common Worship includes specific prayers
for, among many other special circumstances of life,
people in business, in industry, or in the military;
church secretaries; retired people and the unemployed;
those suffering from addictions; young, old, and
middle-aged people; the mentally distressed; engaged
people, newly-weds, single people, single-parent
families, those in marital difficulties, separated or
divorced people. Shall we really say that everyone
else is entitled to the prayers of the church, except
those wishing to enter covenantal commitments of
fidelity and friendship?

* Same-sex union ceremonies can be vital to
gay/lesbian life partners who are seeking to be
faithful and responsible members of the community of
faith and desire the support of their faith community
for their life commitments.

* Covenantal ceremonies are important to parents,
families, and congregations, as well as to the couple.
Does the Presbyterian Church want to send its families
elsewhere to celebrate the relationships of its own
children? "Is there anyone among you who, if your
child asks for bread, will give a stone? Or if the
child asks for a fish, will give a snake?" (Mt 7:9-10)

* The Church has a stake in encouraging faithful,
committed relationships. How can we condemn lesbian
and gay folk for promiscuity, then make it harder to
be in long-term relationship?

* The proposal would hamper evangelistic outreach to
lesbian and gay persons and all others whose
relationships do not conform to the standard cited. In
many communities, it would also hamper outreach to
straight people who know and value lesbian and gay
family members, colleagues, neighbors and friends, and
do not want to be part of a community that refuses to
acknowledge their relationships and offer the care of
the church to assist them in living faithful lives.

* We do not "bless"; God blesses. Prayer puts the
matter in God's hands. The church always and
appropriately prays for God's presence and blessing in
the lives and relationships and commitments of its
members and of all people.

* It is arrogant to presume to control what God may
choose to bless.
"God alone knows whom he has chosen" (Scots Conf.
3.16)
"God knows who are his. . . . We must be very careful
not to judge before the time, nor undertake to
exclude, reject or cut off those whom the Lord does
not want to have excluded or rejected." (II Helv
5.055, 5.140)

PRACTICALITY
(Lots of trouble and expense to enforce a rule that
violates the consciences of many, invites judicial
action that distracts from ministry, further polarizes
the church)

* Homosexuality is a controversial issue, and there is
obviously considerable difference of opinion in the
PC(USA) about whether homosexual behavior is sinful
per se; it is fruitless and destructive to declare one
position to be tantamount to an essential of the
Reformed faith when persons of good conscience
disagree so strongly.

* Those who conduct services of worship celebrating
same-gender relationships do so out of pastoral
integrity, believing them to be faithful ministry. A
blanket prohibition would force a choice between
pastoral duty and an unjust law. Our tradition has
always placed high value on freedom of conscience.

* Why would we follow the United Methodist Church into
major national controversies involving ecclesial
trials and expulsions of pastors? A number of United
Methodist clergy have faced charges because their
consciences required them to defy the Methodist ban on
holy unions -- for the sake of their ministries to the
gay and lesbian members of their congregations.
Presbyterian clergy will surely face the same crisis
of conscience. Don't go there!

* Establishing a law that a substantial number of
persons will be conscience-bound to violate will be
costly to the Church in wasted resources -- time,
money, energy and good will.

* Why would we at this time add to the Book of Order
another reference to "fidelity and chastity" when
what's already there is such a huge point of
contention? How could we possibly believe this would
end the controversy? Constitutional prohibitions will
not bring resolution -- only broad consensus will do
that, and legislation does not bring consensus.

* If the Church is sincere about talking to one
another, the unity in the midst of our diversity
conversation period honored by the GA on issues of
ordination should be extended to this controversy
also.

* The GA vote to send this amendment to the
Presbyteries prevailed by only 17 votes out of over
500 cast. It is harmful to the peace, unity and purity
of the Church for a narrow majority to impose its will
upon such a large minority (see the 1983 Report of the
Special Committee on Historic Principles, Conscience,
and Church Government).

BIBLICAL/THEOLOGICAL
(Acceptance of homosexuality may not be the majority
position of the Church today; but it is well within
the boundaries of the Reformed Tradition)

Do not let go unchallenged the assertion that
Scripture condemns homosexual behavior. Arguing for
the benefits of same-gender services will not be the
strongest approach in most cases, yet polity
discussions will likely not sway those who believe
that this amendment upholds Scripture. Some need
"permission from God" to treat lesbian and gay persons
compassionately.

Read and use the plenary papers and sermons from the
recent Covenant Conference on Biblical Authority and
the Church. Read, understand, and quote the
Confessions' own guidelines on how to interpret
Scripture. Cite the Whole Bible for the Whole Human
Family statement by a majority of all our Presbyterian
seminary Bible faculty.

* Many Biblical scholars and pastors interpret the
specific Biblical witness about sexuality in ways that
permit openness to the full inclusion of gay and
lesbian Christians in the life and worship of the
church. Some of these arguments are briefly summarized
in What Does the Bible Tell Us About Sexuality?

* We honor the diversity of interpretation of
Scripture within our Church.

* Our ordination question, G-14.0207b, asks: Do you
accept the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to
be, by the Holy Spirit, the unique and authoritative
witness to Jesus Christ in the Church universal, and
God's Word to you? -- It is because of Scripture, not
in spite of it, that we extend Christ's welcome.

* Confession of 1967 (9.29): "The church, therefore,
has an obligation to approach the Scriptures with
literary and historical understanding. As God has
spoken [God's] word in diverse cultural situations,
the church is confident that [God] will continue to
speak through the Scriptures in a changing world and
in every form of human culture."

* Our denominational statements on how to read and
interpret Scripture reflect a Reformed understanding
which precludes proof-texting, assumes reading in
context, insists on viewing particular passages in the
light of Jesus' life and ministry, recognizes the
overall message of the Bible as God's saving grace,
and always seeks the guidance of the Holy Spirit to
understand and interpret God's word to us in
Scripture. The above perspectives are not reflected in
00-O, which arrogantly claims to know "God's intention
for all people."

* The belief that Scripture declares all homosexual
practice to be sinful is not an essential tenet of the
Reformed faith; therefore this amendment abridges
freedom of conscience, in contradiction to one of the
basics of our Constitution (G-6.0108).

* Amendment proponents, appealing to ecumenism, point
out that most Christians worldwide do not approve of
homosexuality; they are ignoring the fact that these
same Christians, for the most part, also do not
approve of the ordination of women  yet this majority
has not determined the PC(USA)'s changed understanding
of God's will.

Do not allow the assumption that our position is
unBiblical!

* You do not have to agree with me about whether or
not homosexuality is sinful  just don't insist that I
must agree with you. My position has biblical
integrity and is taught in most of our seminaries.

* Confession of 1967 (9.47): Celebrating a committed
relationship is ordering, not contributing to
"anarchy" in, sexual relationships.

* "Traditional marriage" has changed considerably over
the centuries  arranged marriages, women as property,
polygamy, interracial prohibitions all used to be the
norms. We now understand the primary purpose of
marriage to be companionship, but for millennia it was
thought to be strictly for procreation.

* Same-gender commitments in no way "diminish the
Christian understanding of marriage" (W-4.9004). There
are plenty of threats and challenges to particular
marriages and perhaps to the institution, but it's
hard to see how other folks' committed relationships
pose a threat to "ours."

Sample Speech In Opposition to the Amendment

Many Reasons to Oppose "O" - Remarks to Whitewater
Valley Presbytery
by David Liddle, Pastor, St. Andrew Presbyterian
Church, Indianapolis

Sisters and brothers in Christ, I wish to speak in
opposition to Amendment O. Why, it would be fair for
you to ask, will I vote "no" on this amendment?

I could reply, "For polity reasons," because it
violates the fundamental, constitutional
responsibility of the session to determine how and by
whom its facilities are used, and therefore severely
restricts how churches may choose to offer
hospitality.

I could answer, "For pastoral reasons," because it
compromises our ministry as pastors who are charged
with supporting and encouraging committed rather than
promiscuous relationships, and arrogantly presumes to
control a blessing which God may well choose to give.

I could respond, "For theological reasons," because,
although the Holy Spirit blows where it will, I
believe the amendment trivializes the work of the
Spirit in the life of believers and the life of the
church. Our confession is "The church reformed, and
always reforming," according to the word of God and
the call of the Spirit.

I could say, "For practical reasons," because any
resolution of the issues involved won't come through
arbitrary legislative prohibition, but only through
prayerful discernment and broad, communal consensus.

I could insist, "For biblical reasons," because this
amendment dishonors Reformed statements on the reading
and interpretation of Scripture by claiming there's
only one legitimate interpretation of selected texts.
In doing so, it reduces the Bible to the last word
instead of allowing it to be the lively, living word
it was meant to be.

I could make any or all of these claims, but they
wouldn't be the essential reason for my resistance to
this proposed change in our Book of Order. I resist
because I believe it represents another step toward
turning the Presbyterian expression of the church of
Jesus Christ that we all love into a closed system--a
brittle, legalistic gathering of fearful, suspicious
people. It's a witness to the world that we don't
need, and one I'm not prepared to make.

We live in a time of great social, moral, and
spiritual dislocation and division. But we're part of
a community of biblical faith, given to one another.
We all want to hear what the Spirit is saying to us.
We're all struggling to be faithful. But let's do it
together, instead of drawing more lines in the sand or
closing off dialogue or building walls over an issue
that's still far from settled among people of good
faith and Christian conscience.

I urge you to vote "No" on Amendment O.

Sample Speeches In Favor of the Amendment
(for the presbytery consideration of Amendment O)
By Jim Tony

No one, least of all I, will know what each presbytery
needs to hear from those who believe Amendment O
should pass. Therefore, please receive these seed
thoughts as just that. Obviously the whole book of
preparation materials is designed to make possible
your own thought and speech development. Read these in
the confidence that you can do better. And you
certainly will.

Need for Amendment O
Last May 22, 2000, the General Assembly Permanent
Judicial Commission (GA PJC) for the first time in the
history of our denomination decided that there is a
“permissible same-sex ceremony.” I say the first time,
because just weeks earlier the Advisory Committee on
the Constitution had written: “The intent of the
church, demonstrated in amendments, judicial
decisions, and assembly authoritative interpretations
is to prohibit any ceremony that blesses or appears to
give legitimacy between same-sex couples insofar as
the pastor or the session believe that the blessing is
directly related to their relationship as a couple.”
[Emphasis added]

The GA PJC’s finding that “permissible same-sex
ceremonies” were in accord with our standards came as
news to the Advisory Committee on the Constitution –
just as it does to the rest of the PCUSA.

In proposing Amendment O the General Assembly itself
found that the only warrant for a God-blessed
relationship is to be found either “within the
covenant of marriage between a man and a woman or in
chastity in singleness.” Indeed, the longstanding
policy of our denomination in sexual matters declares
forthrightly that same-sex relationships do not accord
with Biblical or constitutional standards. Thus, our
policy expresses the historic Christian understanding
that homosexual behavior is sinful.

To bless what we understand to be a relationship
within which sinful behavior is to take place is to
make nonsense out of the very notion of Biblical or
constitutional standards at all. On the other hand to
bless a “union” ceremony which explicitly excludes the
possibility of any sexual activity between non-married
persons does not seem to be the issue which presents
itself at this time.

Amendment O is not a new understanding. It is in fact
completely in accord with our historic standards. I am
asking that you approve it, not to create some new
standard, but to make explicit what is already
implicit in our standards. To do so is the respond to
the GA PJC’s claim that “none of the provisions of the
Directory of Worship … prohibit the conduct of
same-sex ceremonies.” You may wish that this were not
necessary, but that GA PJC ruling that some same-sex
blessing ceremonies are permissible stands unless this
amendment is approved.

Please vote to approve Amendment O.

Situation without Amendment O
Please approve Amendment O because without it our
denomination will remain in a muddle.

What happens if Amendment O is not approved?
Constitutionally, the authoritative interpretation of
the most recent GA PJC ruling in Benton et al. v
Presbytery of Hudson River remains in force. That
ruling asserts for the first time that some same-sex
union blessings are permissible and others are not.

Conflict in this sensitive area is bound to be created
by the decision itself. Which blessings are
permissible and which are not? Some guidance is given
by the decision. For instance, “there should be a
liturgical distinction in services blessing a same-sex
relationship … Ministers should not appropriate
specific liturgical forms from services of Christian
marriage … They should also instruct same-sex couples
that the service … does not constitute a marriage and
should not be held out as such.”

So what language is permitted and what is not? Can the
word covenant be used? Can there be a kiss or the
exchange of rings or other meaningful symbols? What
about “unity candles” or the use of acolytes? These
“distinctions” are left undefined. Are we going to
have to settle what is appropriate at a “permissible”
same sex ceremony by court cases? Or do some expect
that the burden to do so will prove so onerous that
the distinctions will become meaningless? And what of
the value, then, of any decision by the GA PJC? The
very fabric of our unity would collapse without some
willing submission to the authority of our
constitution.

Further questions arise out of the need asserted that
same-sex couples be instructed that such a service
does not constitute a marriage and should not be held
out as such. Does that declaration belong in the
blessing service itself? What does a union mean when
it is dissociated from the language of the confessions
and our liturgy that refers to marriage as the union
blessed by God?

But this is only the beginning of difficulties with
trying to live under the situation without Amendment
O. I do not think either pro-homosexual activists or
confessional traditionalists would find the situation
desirable. For the decision of the GA PJC goes on to
state that a same-sex ceremony “should not be
construed as an endorsement of homosexual conjugal
practice proscribed by the General Assembly.” Are
these ceremonies intended to bless purely non-sexual
relationships? Would the ceremonies need to
acknowledge the exclusion of sexual activity from the
blessing? Exactly who is seeking such a ceremony,
which does not envision some sort of sexual
consummation?

In dealing with Amendment O it is imperative for us to
keep in mind the situation that its rejection would
leave the church in. Because that situation would be
one of confusion and conflict, I urge you to support
Amendment O.

Marriage as the union God establishes
[The following takes the marriage service from the
1993 Book of Common Worship and emphasizes the
Statement on the Gift of Marriage in certain ways.]

We gather in the presence of God
To give thanks for the gift of marriage,
To witness the joining together of N and N,
To surround them with our prayers,
And to ask God’s blessing upon them,
So that they may be strengthened for their life
together
And nurtured in their love for God.

God created us male and female [and not some other
way]
And gave us marriage – and not some other covenant
So that husband and wife may help and comfort each
other,
Living faithfully together in plenty and in want,
In joy and in sorrow,
In sickness and in health,
Throughout all their days.

God gave us marriage – and not any other relationship
For the full expression of the love between a man and
a woman – the genders were God’s idea.
In marriage a woman and a man belong to each other,
And with affection and tenderness
Freely give themselves to each other.

God gave us marriage – the service emphasizes the
divine origin of marriage between a man and woman
For the well-being of human society. So our
confessions have uniformly taught. Marriage and not
some other union are for the welfare of human society.
For the ordering of family life
And for the birth and nurture of children. Scripture
is not silent about God’s intention. Unions
consummated other than as God’s Word allows are not
blessed by him.

God gave us marriage [again] as a holy mystery
In which a man and a woman are joined together,
And become one,
Just as Christ is one with the Church. Marriage is
seen as more than a human relationship, but in very
significant ways as analogous to God and to the union
of Christ and the Church. To change the ones being
joined would be to wreck the very core theology of
marriage.

We rejoice that marriage is given by God,
Blessed by our Lord Jesus Christ,
And sustained by the Holy Spirit.
Therefore, let marriage be held in honor by all.

As we come to decide whether to approve Amendment O, I
believe we have the opportunity to demonstrate the
honor for the marriage relationship that is truly due
to it. Amendment O will demonstrate our support for
marriage as the relationship God blesses and not some
other lesser copy. For the Church of Jesus Christ to
attempt to put his blessing on some other type of
relationship it would need to demonstrate that Jesus
himself put his stamp of approval on some other type
of union, that he abrogated the covenant of creation.
I can find no counterpart of marriage and so I ask
that you join with me to let marriage continue to be
held in honor by all as we together vote to approve
Amendment O.

*****

Presbytery of Charlotte
Ecclesiastical Affairs Committee Report

Book of Order Amendments

February, 2001

The proposed amendments to the Book of Order that are
before the Presbyteries for consideration are included
in the enclosed booklet. In addition, a paper prepared
by The Association of Stated Clerks (PCUSA) is
enclosed that provides some issues relating to each
amendment.

The Ecclesiastical Affairs Committee makes the
following recommendation for the Presbytery of
Charlotte’s dealing with these amendments:

That all amendments except Amendment 00-0 be treated
as a consent agenda for approval by Presbytery. That
if any items are lifted out for discussion or debate
they be disposed of before continuing on to
consideration of Amendment 00-0.

That the process for considering Amendment 00-0 be as
follows:

1. That two persons pro and two persons con be granted
four (4) minutes each to present their position;

2. That the floor be open for debate with each speaker
allotted two (2) minutes, alternating pro and con,
until the pro-con rotation is exhausted. Then
whichever side has additional speakers be allowed up
to five (5) speakers before debate is closed. No
person shall be permitted to speak more than once;

3. That the vote be taken by a standing vote, and, if
considered necessary by the Moderator, counted by the
Tellers.


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Attention Seiglians ;-)

The Presbytery of Charlotte is expanding their
distribution of "The Concordance", the Presbytery
Newsletter.  From this point forward they intend to
include all households in the Presbytery.  If anyone
is interested in being included on the mailing list
for the Presbytery's Newsletter, please contact the
Presbytery office at 704-535-9999 and tell the
receptionist you wish to be added.

If anyone has access to the church's complete
directory and can request that it get forwarded to the
Presbytery office with the request that all members be
added to the mailing list ... that would be
preferable!

Do you have a news story for the Presbytery
Newsletter? Drop our editor an JoanNeal1@... and
they may publish your story.

Hope this helps!

Peace,
John


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Friends,
     Excuse me for not having all the facts. I'm sure a current ruling
elder can add information to this alert.
     As I understand it, Charlotte Presbytery will vote again on same-
sex relationships within the church at the next meeting of
Presbytery, next Tuesday, February 27. at Myers Park beginning at
9:00. I don't have a copy of the proposal, Option O, so I don't know
how it differs from previous initiatives, Amendments A and B.
     Western Carolina has already voted to include. The last time this
came up for a vote in Charlotte, inclusion was narrowly defeated.
However, I have heard from a reliable source that oponents are
already planning their presentations.
     I hope Seigle will have a voice in this debate. Which elder has
been elected to attend this meeting? This item should be addressed
around 10:45, although it is not a stated order of the day.
     From my years on Committee on Preparation, I have observed that
the most forceful arguments come from respected churches, are
biblically based, and are not extremist (or inflamatory or flaming).
     Let's not hide our light...
Katie Dunlap

Dear Friends:

This is the follow-up promised last week about the Oscar Emmary Fund.
The elders of Seigle Avenue graciously agreed on Sunday to allow
contributions for Oscar's upcoming consultation with Dr. Papalos to be
received by and then distributed from one of the Church's bank
accounts.  So, if you would like to contribute and were waiting on final
instructions on how to go about it, you should make your check payable
to Seigle Avenue Presbyterian with a memo notation that it is for the
"Oscar Emmary Fund."  You can mail the check to me or to Donna Emmary at
the addresses listed below.  Alternatively, you can give a check to
either one of us or to Agatha Belvin or to the offering plate on Sunday
morning.  (If you choose the last option, please be sure to include a
clear notation of the purpose -- Oscar Emmary Fund -- so the ushers can
direct your contribution to the correct account.)

The additional news I have to report is twofold:  First, the generosity
of the members and friends of Seigle Avenue has been overwhelming.  An
amount approaching $1,000 has already been donated, for which Donna is
very grateful.  We believe that God will provide additional funds and
whatever else is needed to get Oscar safely to and from New York City
for his March 6th appointment.  Second, Oscar is sadly not doing very
well at this time.  Donna reported yesterday that if Oscar's symptoms
continue to progress in the manner they have learned to expect, he will
probably need to be hospitalized within the next few days.

Please continue to keep Oscar in your prayers.  Please contribute if you
can (using these instructions, not the ones below).

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ARTS MISSION GROUP became involved in this when Tryon Arts Center contacted
Charlie & Marsha.  Since they were leaving they asked Jean Prewitt and Gloria
Spanjer to attend as Seigle Avenue representatives.  How interesting it has
been!  The Like A Prayer exhibition examines the ways that Judaism or
Christianity have occurred within the idioms of contemporary art.  Seigle Avenue
Arts Mission Group has reserved two times to view and discuss the art with
member of other faiths and a facilitator.  In order to register, please contact
Gloria Spanjer @ 365-1372 or Gloria.Spanjer@....  We encourage you
to bring a friend of another faith or race.
                    Location:          Spirit Square Galleries
                    Dates/Times:   Wednesday, March 7 from 12-2
                                               Sunday, March 25 from 6-8
Our hope is that through hearing and understanding the "prayers" of others, we
can find ways to come together and bridge the chasms of misunderstanding that
separate members of our community.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Adult Christian Education Events:
This is a great way to meet other Seigle members!

ACES at Wonderful Wednesday:
Come at 5:45 for dinner and fellowship. Bible study begins at 6:15. Ends at
7:00pm.

Wednesday, 2/21: Homosexuality and Christianity Series (John Mayes) Our
discussion continues this week looking at homosexuality and the Presbyterian
Church, specifically the proposed Amendment O.

Wednesday 2/28: Today is Ash Wednesday. Andy Baxter will explain Ash
Wednesday and help us prepare hearts and minds for the season of Lent.

Wednesdays 3/7 - 3/21: Adam, Eve and the Serpent Discussion with Tom Lannin.

ACES on Sunday Morning:
Bible study held from 9:45-10:30 at the Hope Building.

Sunday, February 25: Restorative Justice (Beth Wells)
Come explore with us the history of the prison system and how it presently
effects the criminals and victims.

Begin making plans for:
On March 11, Karen Williams will be beginning a Sunday morning discussion on
Prayer. This series will continue through April 1.

We are always interested in your input for study subjects and study leaders.
Please let us know if you have anything to suggest!

Have any questions - Need more info: Email Bethw555@... or call church
office 338-1914

Greeting Friends at Seigle Avenue Presbyterian Church,

My apologies for the sudden change in the location of this emailing list.  I
just got word today that we had until next week to move the list to a new
service.  Since I have several emailing lists already on Yahoo!Groups and I
am a member of many more, I decided it made since to locate our church list
there as well.

I am writing to let you know how you can take maximum advantage of the
Yahoo!Groups service!  Yahoo!Groups offers many additional services for our
Church through their service. Introduce yourself and others to our church
online or this list by sending them to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SeigleAvenuePresbyterian

- GROUP CALENDAR
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SeigleAvenuePresbyterian/calendar
We now have a Member Edited online Calendar that each of you can add events
to.  Automatic email reminders of calendared events can be sent from the
Calendar to everyone on the list.  Committee leaders are encouraged to go
put meeting dates and special events on the church calendar.  I encourage
everyone to go put your birthday on the calendar.

- POLLING
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SeigleAvenuePresbyterian/polls
We can now use an automated polling process to poll our online congregation
about idea, meeting times, and other decisions in the life of our church.
Wanna find out what others are thinking ... start a poll yourself!

- LINKS/BOOKMARKS
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SeigleAvenuePresbyterian/links
Members of this list can now also add to our very own list of important
links on the web that might be of interest to those in our community.  Have
you got a social service website, a community website, or a religious
website that would be useful to us ... please add it to our Bookmarks page.

- FILES
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SeigleAvenuePresbyterian/files/
Store files that you or your committees or church members will need access
to on our group site.

- ARCHIVE MESSAGES
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SeigleAvenuePresbyterian/messages
Forgot what you or someone else said in a previous note!  Now you have quick
easy access to all the notes posted to this list.

- LIVE GROUP CHAT
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SeigleAvenuePresbyterian/chat
There is also the opportunity for live web-based chat on the group website.
Could be fun or useful!

I recommend each of you consider the following as well to enhance your use
of the Yahoo!Groups experience:

- YAHOO!ID
http://my.yahoo.com/
I would recommend to each of you to consider getting a Yahoo!ID by signing
up at.  You can link your current email address with a Yahoo!ID.  With a
Yahoo!ID you can unify and access the following services under one single
ID:

- INSTANT MESSAGES
http://messenger.yahoo.com/
Use Yahoo!Messenger to chat with members of Yahoo!Groups members in this
emailing list as well as other Yahoo users and friends.  Download Messenger
at.  The Messenger software also provides access to important daily
information such as your personal calendar, your list of favorites, current
weather, personalized news, and reminders.  Finally everyone in a
Yahoo!Group with a Yahoo!ID will be able to communicate with one another
more easily through Yahoo!Messenger ... This creates the possibility of
having live chat opportunities for individuals and groups in our church.

- WEB BROWSING MADE EASY
http://edit.yahoo.com/config/download_companion
Get Yahoo!Companion a tool bar added to your browser window to make
accessing the internet much more personalized and easier.

- PERSONALIZE THE WEB
http://my.yahoo.com/
You can personalize your own welcome page using My Yahoo! by putting all the
information you need in one place ... news, sports, weather, email,
messenger access, local entertainment, web resources, shopping, etc.... You
can make all this information organize the way you want it to be.  News and
Local information can be personalized in great detail.

- PERSONAL CALENDAR & ADDRESS BOOK
http://calendar.yahoo.com/ and http://address.yahoo.com/
You can keep your own personal calendar and address books.  These can even
be syncronized with Microsoft Outlook and other databases.  This is great to
make all your information available to you anywhere and yet still manage the
information using easy to use software on your own computer.  YOu can make
your calendars publicly avaialbe if you want other to know what you are
doing also.  Calendar availalbe .

Personally, I have moved my main mail box to Yahoo and have all my other
mail forwarding there now.  This way I can access all my information from
one interface and I have maximized my personalization of the web by using
Yahoo!  I am even now doing my banking through Yahoo! Let me know if you
have any questions about taking full advantage of integrating all your
internet services.

Peace,

JOHN MAYES
SAPC List Manager


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