Dear Ronnie,

Your statement below was very shocking to me:

"We all agree that the father of our Indian Church is St. Thomas. During 2000
years of our history so many step fathers lived with us and gave us fatherly
care which made us forget our real father. That made us lose our identity."

This statement is just bizarre.

What makes it more peculiar is how you justify it:

"Look at our history. Look at the sacrifices our forefathers made for getting
out of bondage. Starting from Moses. Freeing the Israelites from Egyptian
Bondage."

Since the context of your statement was to Manoj regarding the difference
between the Syrian Orthodox Church and the IO Church, you'd be hard pressed to
suggest these "step fathers" were anyone other than the Middle Eastern Syrian
Orthodox fathers of the Church who came to India and gave their lives to
maintain the faith there.
How are any of these "step fathers" different from non-Indian foreigners like
St. Thomas or Moses?  Thomas, Moses, and the Syrian fathers [who traveled to
India] were all Semites from the Hebrew/Aramaic tradition.  All were believers
and followers of the one true God.  How do you justify people like Moses as "our
forefathers," and yet relegate the Syrian Orthodox as "step-fathers?"

Obviously the IO Church that you belong to has a major identity crisis.  Who are
you guys really?  If you're purely Indian with no foreign influence, you must
likewise reject St. Thomas, Moses, and Jesus Christ Himself:  all of whom are
non-Indians.

One thing that makes the Syrian Orthodox Christians of Kerala so beautiful is
that they don't have this identity complex the IOC/Mosc seems to endure.  The
Syrian Orthodox Christians of India know who they are and are comfortable with
it.  They know that the apostles (including St. Thomas) were Syrian Christians,
they know the successive fathers who came to India were Syrian Christians, and
they know their rite is Syriac.  They eat meen curry, speak Malayalam, wear
mundu, etc.  They are Indian people who love India, but love Christ that much
more.    They don't have the headaches the IO Church does because they don't
have the need to rewrite any histories or justify any invention of new thrones.

What sort of identity are the folks in the IO Church after?  How Indian does one
have to be for you guys to stop attacking other churches, stealing people's
property, and using your resources for the good of mankind instead of making
non-Christian lawyers rich, while driving innocent folks out of the Orthodox
Christian life and into the arms of the wild Protestants?  You accept Semites
like Moses and St. Thomas as "Indian-enough," but the other Semite fathers from
the East you don't accept.  Our present patriarch HH Moran Mor Ignatius Zakka I
is from, what we could call in St. Thomas' time, "India" or "Indo-Parthia." 
Like St. Thomas, he's come to India and inspired people in their faith.  Is he
not "Indian-enough?"  Is being "Indian" and feeling good about oneself the real
issue here, or is there something more?

Ronnie, in spite of the loyalty you've shown for the IO church, I think you're a
man who, when alone and outside of the voices which incite division, will come
to terms with the truth of Orthodox Christianity.  Though my friends honor me by
saying that I am an Indian, in reality, I'm as SAYIPU as they come.  But between
all of us, these issues of being Middle Eastern, Indian, or other, don't matter
at all when our hearts and minds are focused on Christ. Don't let yourself be
deceived:  You are Syrian Orthodox.  Focus your heart and mind on Christ, pray
the prayer of the holy name (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy upon me),
and dear Ronnie, something will click inside.  I promise you, when we take the
time to bow and yield to His love and compassion, an unrivaled peace and clarity
greet us.

In Christ,
Mike Wingert
St. Mary's SJ Syriac Orthodox Church,
Santa Fe Springs, CA
#0902

Dear Paul,

Thank you for your post. I saw that picture of the dilapidated church and
especially the condition of the graves of the members who toiled for that
church. That picture speaks a thousands of words. Those who did it to that
church deserve severe punishment from God. This is why I wrote in another post,
a church where brothers do not give the kiss of peace each other will have the
same fate. It is said in the Bible, reconcile with your brother before offering
your sacrifice.

Paul, to be frank with you I dont know a lot of history. I am making an attempt
to learn it from different sources including some on your websites. I have a
question for you about the establishment of the church.

From the little history I read, my understanding is that St. Thomas came to
India in AD 52 and established the church. One of the main item of dispute is
the " Kai Veppu " of our Indian Bishops. Who gave that Kai Veppu authority to
St. Thomas when the saint established the church in Persia and India. Was it
direct from Jesus Christ or from St. Peter.

Your historians says that the Syrian Christain influence in india started from
AD 350 or later. So, what was the status of the church in India between AD 52
and AD 350.

My second question is that if St. Peter was the single head of the church why
that church under St. Peter is divided into many parts? Roman Catholic church
too is started by St. Peter. Why cant all churches started by St. Peter not
remaining under one umbrella?

Prayerfully
Ronnie Daniel
ID # 2304

Matrimonial Digest / 0071-05

Dear members

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++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Matrimonial; Code # 013/04
++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Jacobite parents from Ernakulam Dt.invites proposals to her
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++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jacobite Parents from Kottayam Diocese invites proposals for their
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Jacobite parents from Ernakulam Dt.invites proposals to their son.
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++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Matrimonial; Code # 003/04
++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Jacobite parents from Kottayam invite proposals for their daughter,
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"Abraham passed through all the reasoning that is possible to human nature about
the divine attributes, and after he had purified his mind of all such concepts,
he took hold of a faith that was unmixed and pure of any concept, and he
fashioned for himself this token of knowledge of God that is completely clear
and free of error, namely the belief that God completely transcends any knowable
symbol. And so, after this ecstasy which came upon him as a result of these
lofty visions, Abraham returned one more to his human frailty: `I am,' he admits
(Gen. 18:27), `dust and ashes,' mute, inert, incapable of explaining rationally
the Godhead that my mind has seen."

St. Gregory of Nyssa.

--------------------------------------------------------------

"The mouth of the righteous speaks wisdom, And his tongue talks of justice. The
law of his God is in his heart; None of his steps shall slide." Psalms 37:30-31

---------------------------------------------------------------

Prayer Requests:

Please remember me in your prayers.

Please pray for the peace of the world.

"casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you." 1 Peter 5:7

She was begotten like the cherubim, from pure and spotless [clay]. For
while she was still in the loins of her father Joachim, her mother Anna
received a message from a holy angel, who said to her, 'Thy seed shall
be spoken of throughout all the world.' Therefore Anna brought her to
the temple of the Lord as an offering.
And during all her time there, the maiden stood alongside Christ the
King, 'at his right hand, splendidly robed in a robe of gold,' as the
prophet says 'Listen, daughter, and see, and incline thine ear; forget
thy people and thy father's house. The King greatly desireth thy
beauty; he is thy Lord -- pay homage to Him' (Ps. 44:10-13).

Theoteknos, Bishop of Livias, And Encomium on the Assumption of the
Holy Mother of God.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ajay Kuriakose
Member id#2303

DEAR FRIENDS,

                  1. THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE INTERESTED TO KNOW ABOUT THE HISTORY OF
THE MALANKARA CHURCH WITH REFERENCE TO LITIGATION MAY CHECK UP THE FOLLOWING
SITE.

                   www.philipparambil.biz

               2. THE NUMBER OF APPEAL IN SUPREME COURT IS C.A 5460 OF 2004. YOU
CAN GET TO KNOW WHETHER IT IS POSTED BY GOING TO THE SITE OF SUPREME COURT ADDED
AS A LINK HERE.

            A] Open the supremecourt site,

            B] Go to Case Status portion,

             c] go to supreme court of india,

             d]go to case number,

            e] take appeal [civil] in case type:type number as 5460, year as 2004

              and then submit

   YOU WILL BE ABLEW TO GEWT THE LATEST POSITION AS TO WHETHER THE CASE IS POSTED
OR NOT.


                         ADVOCATE P J PHILIP,

                      MEMB;ID=203






PRAISE THE LORD,

PHILIP P J [PARAMBIL THARAKAN]

Dear  Matthew Tsipras,

It is wonderful to see that you are asking questions about your
church that you currently belong to. I guess everyone wants to know
the truth about what they are following and the history of one's
church before becoming totally committed to such a church.

You ask the question, "Have I been living a lie?"  Certainly your
bishop knows and could be misleading you, or maybe it is your bishop
and priest.   It could be that your entire community is being
mislead.  I really can't comment on that as I don't know the
particulars of your situation.   Instead, I will note some
observations and give you reasons why I am a Syriac Orthodox
Christian.

You are absolutely correct that there are two Indian Orthodox groups
in the US and the rest of the world, one the (Jacobite) Syrian
Orthodox Church which associates itself to the Patriarch of Antioch
His Holiness Moran Mor Ignatius Zakka I and the other that can trace
its lineage to excommunicated individuals of the former church.

I think it is your personal choice whether you want to belong to an
excommunicated church or not.

My personal opinion and the reason why I belong to the Syriac
Orthodox Church also known as the (Jacobite) Syrian Orthodox church
and not to the Indian Orthodox Church is that I do not want to belong
to a heretical church. Most heretical churches are usually formed out
of PRIDE. It could be an individual who considers themselves greater
than the very church which can trace back to the earliest Christians
of Antioch.

This is another thing.  It was the enemies of Christ's followers who
labeled us as 'Christians' in Antioch, a name which we all humbly
submit to being labeled.   In the same way, the enemies of the
Orthodox Church labeled us as "Jacobites," because of tireless work
of our beloved St. Jacob Burd'ono, the upholder of the Orthodox
faith, who inspired an entire generation never to give up the good
fight.   And now, it is our own people in India who attack us with
the term "Jacobite," attempting to insult us, while they refer to
themselves as "Orthodox".   God will know us by our fruits, and if
they want to label us Jacobites like the enemies of Christ did, then
that is between them and God, but I won't live my Orthodox Christian
life like that.   A more precise term for us would not be Jacobite,
but "Syrian Orthodox Church of Malankara" or the "Syrian Orthodox
Church of India."

Another reason for my being a Syriac Orthodox Christian is the
honesty of our Church.  Unlike the Indian Orthodox which has only
been around for about 100 years (they rejoined our church and then a
few of them continued their movement and were excommunicated again 30
some odd years ago), the Syriac Orthodox Church has been around for
nearly 2000 years.   The Upper Room, where the Church officially
began, is today one of our monasteries.  Having such a long and
detailed history, it is easy to be honest about the truth when non-
Syriac and/or secular historians can back us up.   Many in the church
with whom you are presently associated prey on the ignorance of
others.  I'd guess you will be told cookie-cutter responses like:

"Oh it is just politics in a far away land."

No.  Stealing is not politics, it is a matter of faith.  "Thou shalt
not steal or covet anything that is thy neighbors" right?   It is
also not in a far away land, it is happening in the United States of
America also.

"Well, it is not stealing, since all your properties belong to us!"

I hear this one a lot.  First of all, how can any excommunicated
people lay claim to ANY property that isn't built by themselves after
their excommunication?   That is outright illogical.  If someone is
excommunicated, then he's excommunicated--it doesn't mean he takes
the properties my ancestors built with him.   My ancestors and direct
family members have built our places of worship for the Syriac
Orthodox Christian faith, not for upstart individuals in India, who
after being excommunicated indulge in a secular-legal campaign
against the entire Syrian Orthodox Church in India.   The poor-class
Syrian Orthodox Christians of Kerala scraped together what little
they had to build these places of WORSHIP.  Is it holy and Christlike
to systematically shut down places where Orthodox Christians
worship?     Not at all.  And if it is not holy and Christlike, what
then is it?

And to justify all these actions, they will probably tell you "Oh but
the 1934 constitution means we can take all of their property."

This is very misleading.  When the Indian Orthodox rejoined our
church, for the sake of peace, the Syrian Orthodox in India, as well
as the Patriarch in the Middle East, let them keep their 20th century
constitution for their own churches (or better put, the churches they
had already seized).   Since the patriarch's focus was peace, he
permitted them to keep that for themselves (note: whether he actually
permitted it at all or was cunningly mislead, as the marthomites did
a century earlier, is not certain).   Either way, this entire
discussion is irrelevant since the Indian Orthodox won't even follow
their own constitution.  The first and most important part of their
constitution, superceding everything else, is that their church is a
division of the Syrian Orthodox Church and that the patriarch is
their head.   (We do not accept this constitution and never have, as
it is gravely ambiguous--without such ambiguity, the Indian Orthodox
have little room to use the Indian legal system to their
advantage).   Again, beware if anyone tells you something about this
as they are misleading you.  Their constitution is subject to the
Patriarch and they were excommunicated by Patriarch.   Moreover, it
doesn't apply to any of our places anyway.

All one has to do is look at our beloved Parumala Thirumeni, aka St.
Gregorios Gevarghese.  He has fervently supported the Syrian Orthodox
faith throughout his whole life, and even said that if anyone
disobeys Antioch and is excommunicated, such a person will be
accursed and swallowed up by the fire of God's wrath.   When we point
this out to our Indian Orthodox brothers who are kept in the dark
about this Syrian Orthodox saint, they pass it off by saying: "God
permitted him to lie," or "He was afraid of the Portuguese."   How
hard is it for them to just say, "Okay, he was 100% dedicated to the
Syrian Orthodox Church, and that much is clear"?  Many think that if
they admit to St. Gregorios' fierce loyalty to the Patriarch, it will
weaken their attempts at legitimacy.

Visit this link to read St. Gregorios' personal Oath and Statement:

http://sor.cua.edu/Personage/MGregoriusGChathuruthil/18761216shalmooth
o.html

I am not saying that people can't have differences in opinions, etc.,
but to break away from the earliest established Church and form one's
own "throne" and twist facts and present history to suit one's present
situation is wrong. Who would want to belong to such a church?   The
situation is most of all disappointing because it is all preventable
with a little humility.  Some in the Indian Orthodox are starting to
realize that.   Recently in India, a group of them teamed up with
some of us Syrian Orthodox to open a Syrian Orthodox church that
their Indian Orthodox bishop insisted be closed down.   They defied
their bishop and church's administration to help us open the house of
prayer.  Sadly, this is the exception rather than the rule, as too
many in the IOC want the split to continue (there is so much money to
be made off of all this, be it through the media or litigation or
tithe transfers).   But there is hope, and your message to us is very
encouraging.  I believe you are a man of virtue and integrity simply
by the fact that you have sent such an inquiry.

Philip Mathew
ID # 0117
St. Mary's  JSOC,
Whittier, CA

Dear Respected Members,

Recently I read this post on an IOC forum:

>37.  CURRENT STATUS

>Our Church has been recognized by all world Christian
>denominations -- Roman Catholic, Protestants, the
>Eastern and the Oriental Orthodox Churches -- along
>with the World Council of Churches -- as an
>independent, indigenous, autocephalous Church.

This was posted by a priest with the rank of Chorepiscopus.

I am wondering how this can be possible since our Patriarch does not
recognize the IOC as independent. I am almost positive that the
Coptic Church does not officially recognize the IOC as autocephalous.

I am aware that the IOC is active in world Christian bodies, but how
do those bodies see the IOC?

Can anyone clarify the issue?

Of course, just because some Christians who may not know the
hierarchical development of the IOC might accept the IOC's bishopric
at face value, it does not mean that legitimacy exists.

P.S. In a recent post I wrote to Matthew T., a clarification of my
own is in order. I wrote that Mor Vatterseril was active ca. 1850s.
Actually, he was born in the 1850s and caused trouble in the church
in the early 1900s. HH Abdul Mashih was deposed around this time and
Mor Vatterseril was "elevated" by him after he was deposed. I believe
this is widely understood by many members of this forum. Please
forgive the mistake and pray for me. Thanks to Mike W. for bringing
this to my attention.

Dn. Zach Varghese
http://ruho.org
ID 0970

1.  Reopening of the churches at Aluva and other places:   
Reconciliatory efforts of Ministerial Committee dragging ;  Malankara Orthodox faction boycotted the meeting yet again
http://www.geocities.com/malankaravoice10/20050905peacetalks.htm

2.  Catholica Bava inaugurated the public meeting held in connection with the Manarcad Perunnal
http://www.geocities.com/malankaravoice10/20050905manarcad.htm

3.    Church feud: ‘CM delaying peace talks’ (The New Indian Express)
http://www.geocities.com/malankaravoice10/20050904churches.htm


For more Links, visit:   
http://www.geocities.com/malankaravoice10/news_section.htm
http://malankara.cjb.net/  or 
http://www.geocities.com/malankaravoice10

"Our virtue, therefore, must not be contaminated with fault, but must be
singleminded and blameless, and free from all that can bring reproach. For what
profit is there in fasting twice in the week, if thy so doing serve only as a
pretext for ignorance and vanity, and make thee supercilious and haughty, and
selfish?"

St. Cyril of Alexandria.

--------------------------------------------------------------

"The Lord gave the word; Great was the company of those who proclaimed it."
Psalms 68:11

---------------------------------------------------------------

Prayer Requests:
If you have an update on a prayer request, please let me know.

Please remember the following in your prayers:

The Victims of Hurricane Katrina.
The Christian Minority in Noshara, Pakistan.
Fadia - Breast Cancer.
Merna - 9 yrs old girl with brain hemorrhage - multiple skull fractures. Merna
is conscious and talking but apparently she had lost hearing in one ear. She is
doing better overall.
Tara - Systematic Lupus and financial and family problems
George k - Cancer
Frances - Brain Tumor
Delaney - 8 mon. old baby, hospitalized with severe burns and possible limb
amputation.
Peter, Bishoy and Neveen - healing from the loss of both their parents.
Alber - Cancer
K - Depression, anxiety, addiction, pride and spiritual estrangement
E. Tawadros - confusion and depression.
Andrew Eskander - car accident. Andrew is out of the hospital and is doing great
E. Sidhom - Cancer.
Adel Gendy - 10 years old with kidney failure, needs a kidney transplant.
Bernard - Various drug addiction problems
Joseph - Prostrate Cancer
Mary - Breast cancer
A.K Matthew - Colon Cancer
Enyat - severe diabetes.
Safwat - Kidney problems and Anxiety.
Samy - Bone cancer.
MS - Mercy, Comfort, Strength, Healing and Protection
AAM -- Love, Healing, Comfort, Strength, Support and Guidance
MM -- Love, Healing, Comfort, Strength, Support and Guidance
SE -- Love, Healing
GE -- Love, Comfort, Strength, Support, Guidance
Helen - severe epileptic seizures.
Stephan - 48 years old, muscular dystrophy, diabetes, stroke.
Scott - 4 months old baby desperately in need of a bone marrow donor.
Douglas McLead - Cancer and kidney failure.
Mrs. McLead - Parkinson disease.
Fr Benjamin, Photini, Marina, Miriam, Moses.
Nicholas - constant back pain.
Michael - 9 years old boy with a progressive brain tumor.
Sarah - Back problems and might need an operation soon.
Mayrvat and her 3 kids. She has been separated from her kids.
Elizabeth - bi-polar disease and other problems.
Fr. Constantine S. Palassis - suffers from symptoms of dementia.
Heidy - Depression and other problems.
Esther - Intestinal problems.
Nick - chemotherapy.
Sue S. - Advanced Cancer.
Helen P. - severe depression and diabetes.
Pamela P. - chronic depression and financial difficulties.
Shafika - kidney failure.
Mary Beth - Obesity & Diabetes.
Jean - Neurological back problems.
Therese - Emotional problems.
Reggie - Cancer.
Detra - Stress related health problems.
Walter Sr. - Depression.
Denise I. - Breast Cancer.
Cuba Plain - cancer that is high up in the breast.
Zouhair - stomach cancer.
Magdy - brain tumor.
John Rittel - cancer of the lymph node and voice box.
Eugene - completion of immigration procedures and securing a job.
H. Adel - finish the immigration papers and preparation successfully.
E.Tawadros - Strength, Support, Guidance, wisdom and success.
Shareen - Stays out of trouble, gets closer to God, and Leads a pure life.
Mark H - MS
Mamdooh, Nahed, Marina and Cyril - May the will of The Lord be done.
The mission of the Coptic Church in Africa and throughout the world.
The Christians in Egypt. "Blessed is Egypt My people." Isaiah 19:25

Please remember me in your prayers.

Please pray for the peace of the world.

"casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you." 1 Peter 5:7

The censer, with coal and incense, is a strong weapon in my hands. It is a
symbol of blessing, strength and power, given to me by God, to further my prayer
for all the people of the world, especially for the members of the holy,
ecumenical, apostolic Church; it is a symbol of the ardent, fragrant grace of
the Holy Spirit, breathing on all believers ... it also stands for an image of
the Holy Mother carrying in her womb the live coal of Divinity.
St. John of Kronstadt
--------------------------------------------------------------------
With such a welcome does the representation of the Virgin's form cheer us,
inviting us to draw not from a bowl of wine, but from a fair spectacle, by which
the rational part of our soul, being watered through our bodily eyes, and given
eyesight in its growth towards the divine love of Orthodoxy, puts forth in the
way of fruit the most exact vision of truth. Thus, even in her images does the
Virgin's grace delight, comfort and strengthen us! A virgin mother carrying in
her pure arms, for the common salvation of our kind, the common Creator
reclining as an infant - that great and ineffable mystery of the Dispensation! A
virgin mother, with a virgin's and a mother's gaze, dividing in indivisible form
her temperament between both capacities, yet belittling neither by its
incompleteness.

St. Photius the Great, Homily on the uncovering of an icon of the Theotokos
--------------------------------------------------------------------

After the assent of the holy Virgin, the Holy Spirit descended on her, according
to the word of the Lord which the angel spoke, purifying her, and granting her
power to receive the divinity of the Word, and likewise power to bring forth.
And then was she overshadowed by the enhypostatic Wisdom and Power of the most
high God, the Son of God Who is of like essence with the Father as of Divine
seed, and from her holy and most pure blood He formed flesh animated with the
spirit of reason and thought, the first-fruits of our compound nature: not by
procreation but by creation through the Holy Spirit: not developing the fashion
of the body by gradual additions but perfecting it at once, He Himself, the very
Word of God, standing to the flesh in the relation of subsistence. For the
divine Word was not made one with flesh that had an independent pre-existence,
but taking up His abode in the womb of the holy Virgin, He unreservedly in His
own subsistence took upon Himself through the pure blood of the eternal Virgin a
body of flesh animated with the spirit of reason and thought, thus assuming to
Himself the first- fruits of man's compound nature, Himself, the Word, having
become a subsistence in the flesh. So that He is at once flesh, and at the same
time flesh of God the Word, and likewise flesh animated, possessing both reason
and thought. Wherefore we speak not of man as having become God, but of God as
having become Man. For being by nature perfect God, He naturally became likewise
perfect Man: and did not change His nature nor make the dispensation an empty
show, but became, without confusion or change or division, one in subsistence
with the flesh, which was conceived of the holy Virgin, and animated with reason
and thought, and had found existence in Him, while He did not change the nature
of His divinity into the essence of flesh, nor the essence of flesh into the
nature of His divinity, and did not make one compound nature out of His divine
nature and the human nature He had assumed.

St. John Damascene
--------------------------------------------------------------------

"Gregory of Nazianzen presided over those who maintain the consubstantiality of
the Holy Trinity, and assembled them together in a little dwelling, which had
been altered into the form of a house of prayer, by those who held the same
opinions and had a like form of worship. It subsequently became one of the most
conspicuous in the city, and is so now, not only for the beauty and number of
its structures, but also for the advantages accruing to it from the
visible manifestations of God. For the power of God was there
manifested, and was helpful both in waking visions and in dreams,
often for the relief of many diseases and for those afflicted by some sudden
transmutation in their affairs. The power was accredited to Mary, the mother of
god, the holy virgin, for she does manifest
herself in this way."

  Sozomen, Church History 7:5 [A.D. 444]NPNF II 2:378-379
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Finally from the bible

"Rejoice ,highly favoured one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among
women!" St.luke ch.1:28

Hail Mary, full of grace,
Our Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of
Thy womb, our Lord, Jesus Christ. O Virgin Saint Mary,O
Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at all times, and at the
hour of our death. Amen.

Ajay Kuriakose
Member id#2303

THOUSANDS WITNESS 'NADATHURAKKAL' AT THE MANARCAD ST. MARY'S CATHEDRAL

Kottayam, Sep 7:  Thousands thronged the St. Mary's Jacobite Syrian Cathedral at Manarcaud, near here, on Wednesday to witness the highly revered 'nadathurakkal', the annual ritual; in which the icon of Mother Mary with Infant Jesus will be displayed for the public.  The opening of the main altar is the most important of the ritual in the ongoing eight-day Lent and annual feast of Mother Mary the Immaculate at the cathedral.

The 'nadathurakkal' was performed in an atmosphere marked by prayers and cries of devotees, who had arrived from far and near.  A lull in the torrential rains and a clear sky during the time of the auspicious occasion had brought a sea of faithful to the church. Earlier in the day Jacobite Church Catholicos Baselios Thomas I offered a 'Mooninmel' Qurbana. In the evening, thousands of faithful took part in the ceremonial procession. Traditional art forms like 'margamkali' and 'parichamuttukali' were displayed in the church premises later. ENS

Photos & News at:
http://www.geocities.com/malankaravoice10/20050908manarcad.htm



For more Links, visit:   
http://www.geocities.com/malankaravoice10/news_section.htm
http://malankara.cjb.net/  or 
http://www.geocities.com/malankaravoice10

Dear Ronnie,

First of all i appreciate u as a warrior. But i have something for u to think,
study and analyze. I think i am answering some of your
arguments in this.

In one of your postings, when u didn't have any point to argue, you were saying
that Orthodox church is good at bringing money from USA, UAE etc. Thats exactly
ur church is doing. Nothing spiritual, everything material. You have a feeling
that Indian Churches are depending and meeting their daily expenses with the
money from abroad only. You have to understand that abroad money flow started
only from last 35 years or so. Its great that our people going abroad and
earning money for the well being. Christianity and Churches are operating from
2000 years in Kerala and around the globe.

Please understand that ur church is good only as a money spinning organization
and there are "BLESSED" and "GIFTED" tycoons to drag the church in that
direction. Greedy People are always willing to ditch their Father to make more
money.

IOC's HH's 90 lakh is gone when a blade company bursted in Kottayam. This is the
state of the head of a Church who is saying he believes only in the APEX COURT
(Supreme Court) of India and obeys the LAW OF THE LAND and not following the GOD
GIVEN WISDOM and Christian values. Non Christian JUDGES are having the
opportunity to make millions playing over somebody else's beliefs. Thats the
final outcome of "Sabha Case". There's no point in proclaiming the word of GOD
without practicing atleast 50% of it.  I feel pity on the people following these
kind of churches.

Every IOC member is proud at the ability and paramparyam of Manorama paper and
all PLANETS are revolving around this in ur Church. "Viswaasathinte
Paaramparyam" vitta Manorama's own brainchild
Integrated Finance Company cheated poor peoples sweating. According to all other
kerala medias reporting, around 500 crore of Central Travancore people's money
is washed away by this blade bursting. Investors of IFC includes poor farmers,
Orthodox faithfuls, NRI's and even Manorama employees itself. Every one who
reads news paper in Kerala still remember like yesterday about the
advertisements of IFC, projecting itself as a brainchild of Manorama, MRF and
OEN. Now Manorama is saying like Karunakaran's statements. What IFC? Which IFC?
Whose IFC? You couldn't find a news in Manorama about the happenings in
Integrated Finance Company. 90% of Investors of IFC are from Central Travancore
and the investors meet was conducted by IFC in a remote place in Chennai so that
poor investors can't reach for the voting. For IFC court cases are not in Kerala
courts or Supreme courts. Its in Chennai court. Funny!!

All these EARTHLY gains are momentary or "naimishikam". We are living around max
80 years of world history and if we study the fate of earthly manipulated
establishments we can understand how long they can operate.

You can see Man Made throne like this in URL
http://www.marthomasyrianchurch.org/heritage.htm (Courtesy: George Aramath).

This is the Malankara throne according to Marthoma church. IOC is saying they
also have a Malankara throne. I am really confused and puzzled with "THRONE
CLONING". I pray that no more throne will come up.

How can Catholicate establish in India? Was it a Material or Physical entity to
transfer from Iraq? How can it be established by a "Mudakkiya" Patriarch. Here I
am asking a question to our members. I don't know whether its true or not.
There's saying in central Travancore that excommunicated Bishop Abdul Messiha
had mental ailments and he was locked in Niranom during Catholicate installation
in 1912. Others are saying that Abdul Messiha was locked forcefully to install
the Catholicate here. I would appreciate any knowledgeful person clarifying
this.

Actually what happened is the personal issue of few individuals, became a
devastating force over a century. Egos and "njaan piditcha muyalinu moonnu
kombu" attitude grown up.  CHURCH IS IN THE DISPOSAL OF SOME BUSINESS TYCOONS
AND INDUVIDUALS WHOSE BARGAINING POWER NEEDS A COMMUNITY'S SUPPORT. Somebody
needs dedicated lawyers and having lawyers in their pockets with the money of
the church and utilizing the same lawyers for their business disputes. Very nice
Clientele Management. Refer to the meeting of your Catholicose with your
advocate F.S. Nariman, as reported in Malankara Nazrani. As per the report,
Nariman refused to talk to your Catholicos and asked him to report any Church
case matter to the Manorama Chief Editor only and not to come again to meet
him!! So many in IOC are benefitting from the course cases and others are
forcefully dragged to this. Kadha Ariyathe Aattam Kaanunnavar aanu majority. If
we ask why u are a follower of IOC, the answer would be "i didn't want to move
away from my Local Parish even if it is ruled by Satan or Appurathe Veettile
Chackochan poyi njaanum poyi".

In the early half of 20th century it was easy to deceive people. Communication
systems were weak and decision was taken by "Sthalathe Pradhaana Aaal". 80% of
the people are "Kadha ariyaathe aattam kaanuka aanu".

I dont see Christianity or ideology in Church administration of IOC. Kuratchu
per mattullavare Bible Ghoshikkukayum, Prasangikkukayum, updadeshikkukayum
cheyyukayum. Back doorilude anyante muthal kaamshikkukayum, kayyadakkukayum
cheyyunna dayaneeya avastha aanullathu. Money making establishments are made
everywhere.

There's a saying "Oru kallam paranjaal aa kallathe nyaayeekarikkan Nooru kallam
parayendi varum". Thats the state of IOC. Validity of existence and survival is
trying to be implemented with earthly gains and money spinning or money minting
tacticts.

By God's grace 21st century has given the technological advance to deliver truth
to common man in many ways. Actually its a great misery for the fake leaders.
for eg.

1. Salmoosa of Parumala Thirumeni. This is a real eye opener for all Malankara
faithfuls. The main problem to people is that we dont have time to search the
truth.

2. "History through picture's" by George Aramath. What else is needed for a
common man to know the truth, minority is ruling the majority. There's a saying
"Neerkkoli kaditchhalum Athaazham mudangum". These kind of strategy to close the
church is done by the "CENTRAL COMMAND" and the LEGAL CELL of IOC . When both
the Jacobite and IOC members of Kolencherry church are united to open their
church, there is a "VIMMISHTAM" for CENTRAL COMMAND and LEGAL
CELL.

Any human being without having proper education also can find solution to these
kind of problems in minutes. But if decided to eliminate or "Nigrahikkal", then
there is no solution, only street fighting. Poor believers and faithfuls who
made the churches from the money from their pockets have to be in streets for
their rights. When the world knows this issue, white collar crooked heads are
propagating the news that "Is it Christian to fight in streets? "Che Che Che" We
are feeling very shameful seeing comedy programs in TV Channels". You can find a
reason if u dig the problem from beginning and analyze. Tears of everyone will
be counted on Judgement day. Surely GOD is going to question all the culprits
who dont value the sufferings, sweat and the tears. GOD is carefully watching
from above. Releasing the thread slowly slowly but one day there will be a
HURRICANE which can whirlpool everything.

Let CHRIST'S suffering in this world and martydom of Saints and Apostles be an
inspiration and way for the "Advaanikkunnavarkkum Bhaaram Chumakkunnavarkkum".

In Prayer
Gigi Thomas
Member ID : 1046

"But, in fact, the one who prays to receive this supersubstantial bread does not
receive it altogether as this bread is in  itself, but as he is able to receive
it. For the Bread of Life, out of His love for men, gives Himself to all who ask
Him  but not in the same manner to everyone: to those who have done great works,
He gives Himself more fully, to those who have  done smaller ones, less; to
each, then, according to the spiritual dignity enabling him to receive it.

St. Maximos the Confessor.

--------------------------------------------------------------

"In the day when I cried out, You answered me." Psalms 138:3

---------------------------------------------------------------

Prayer Requests:

Please remember me in your prayers.

Please pray for the peace of the world.

"casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you." 1 Peter 5:7

Dear Manoj, Baby, Mike & V. Thomas,

I am choosing to reply  all 4 emails of yesterday in one go as I
think it is not appropriate for the forum owners to post more than
one email form me in any one day's digest. So, this message is going
to be long and my apologies.

I will answer each and every questions you all have raised, but don't
be angry with me for telling facts as I understand it. I have made a
lot of  people angry in the other forums as well as I refuse to take
side on this church dispute. May be I am little biased towards my
church. But, I will not subscribe to the crap of any one side.
Taking side on this issue means we are not giving Christ a chance to
be heared. I recognize that  leaders on both sides are  at fault  and
they deserve no  sympathy  or defence  from the poor believers.

You all sounds angry except Manoj and anger is not an emotion we
should show in a civilized conversation. I will first answer one
question from Mr. Baby which he has repeated.  I have raised lots of
questions which are yet to be answered, in spite many of you
responding to my posts. So, I will later come up with a summary of
unanswered questions and close this series of  email exchanges.

1. Reply to Mr. Baby - Question  about the  1934 constitutions
applicability on the parish churches.  I got that information from
an article by HG Poulose Mor Gregorios of blessed memory on the
following website.

http://www.paulosmargregorios.info/Nazrani/nazrani%204.pdf

I believe HG was well respected in both factions and that's why I
depended on it.If you have more accurate information on this, please
update me or send me a copy of the 1958 Supreme court verdict. I am
still waiting for answers to the questions I raised on the  2003 high
court verdict which some one has forwarded to me.

2. Reply to Mr. V.M. Thomas about disobedient Bishops.
We do have a system in place in a hierarchy to address disciplinary
issues. Say, if we have a dispute with a neighbour we will first take
it to the local police station before taking it to the high court or
supreme court. I believe only in the Supreme court, but that doesn't
mean that I should not follow due process.
If a priest is disobedient there is a Bishop to address it. If a
Bishop is disobedient there is a Catholicos to address it. If a
Catholicos is disobedient, there is a Holy Synod to address it. If a
Catholicose refuse to listen to the majority, the next alternative is
the HH Patriarch or the Ecumenical Synod.

In your history, it says that HH Abdul Massiah ( I don't know whether
the name is correct) Patriarch was disobedient and the Syrian Holy
Synod took action. So, we have systems in Malankara to address these
kind of situations. So, I need not always obey a disobedient bishop
nor should I need to  take a decision of my own on faith matters.

3. Now To Mr. Mike.
Mike, from your all previous posts, I know that you are a person with
a great knowledge of our church and history. I fully agree with you
that we need to focus  on Christ, pray and  to bow and yield to His
love and compassion. Absolutely, no doubt about it. That  is what I
am doing.

But, Same time I cannot just watch my brothers are deceived by self
centered, egoistic people who are taking advantage of the ignornace
of common people. And Mike, I think you are adding fuel to the fire
by saying Moses, Jesus Christ and St. Thomas were all Syrian
Christians. Where did this " Semite " come from ?? Are you saying
Moses or Jesus or Thomas were of Arabic descend ?? No way. Let me
know where did you learn this from. What I learned is, all these
three people were  the descendents of Abraham and Issac , that means
the Israelites.

And who are The Syrians, The Romans, The Persians, The Greeks, The
Russians, The Indians. All are the "new Israel" according to Bible.
Bought with the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is our
link to the family of the chosen people of Israel. Not the Arabs or
Arbaham's son in Hagar. They have the same right as we Indians in the
kingdom of god as the New Israel. Our connection to Moses or Abraham
or to Isreal people is through Jesus Christ  and through him all of
Israel would become our forefathers.

Syrian Christians of Syria are in the same situation as the Indian
Christians. This is my understanding about this whole thing. You
don't need to go through either Syria, or Rome, or Greece or Russia
to be eligible to be the NEW ISRAEL. If one church occupy the other
it is because of absolute ignorance of the poor people of that
church. Example: the Roman churches occupation of the Malankara Rite.

You heared the recent story about their Catholicose. Indian church
says it is catholicose. Roman church says it is ArchBishop. What do
you think ?? Is it subordination ?? At least the Malankara rite
archbishops got their vote in choosing the Pope and their Western
Dioceses come right under their Malankara Synod. Also, they get
substantial aid to build churches from Rome in return for their
subordination. I am sure you are aware of the tonnes and tonnes of milk
powder and clothes dumped into Kerala at the time of the birth of
Malankara rite.

You asked what identity the IOC has ? Our identity is the NEW ISRAEL
or the Indian Israel. Where do we fit ourselves by calling  as
Indian Syrians. In the materialistic world we are Indians, and in the
spiritual world we are the NEW ISRAEL. If anyone teach you to the
contrary you beleive in subordination same like the Roman Catholics.
I am not saying that there is anything wrong with being part of
another countrys church, but it should be mutually rewarding and more
democratic. Not racist.

4. Now to you Manoj.
Dear Manoj, I hope we have achieved a certain level of mutual trust
each other that you are not sounding very hostile. I post my views in
ICON, MOSC and SOCM which I think are relavant to our current faction
fight. We will make no progress until the people on both side
understand each other and find solutions to our current problems. Our
leaders on both sides are trying to  keep us in  dark in order to
enjoy their position or luxury. Our ignorance is their profit. Same
as the banking industry. What is banking industry?? Borrow cheap and
lend high. There is no magic or technology involved in it. But, they
cover it in secrecy of  large glass buildings and cosy cubicles where
officers well dressed are sitting in front of expensive communication
gadgets. But, what are they doing??. Simple Blade business. They will
pay you 3 % for your fixed deposit or GIC and the same money they
will lend you or your neighbour for 8 to 28 percent.
Church system is becoming exactly the same. There are lots of
parasites using the church offertory to enrich themselves or to lead
a luxurious life style. They are sugar coating it with faith and
belief. Otherwise you tell me why an Old person like our Holy
Catholicose is being propped up in that position by the business and
other lobbyers. Why these court cases are continued this long. Our
church  doesn't know what we will do with all the offertory from
Parumala as soon as this court case is over. A lot of unemployed
lawyers in Kottayam and Ernakulam will have to forgo their luxuries.
This is something unfortunately we have to live with. But, you need
not surrender to this system. You can always make changes happen.

About the history of our church I briefly explained in my reply to
Mike. Let me expand it a little further for you. There is only one
category of Christians. That is Christians who are the followers of
Jesus Christ. How the Christians  happened to be named as Syrian,
Roman, Russian, Greek, Ethopean, Ukranian, Egyptian . etc.. etc. The
common factor in all this is the country where they are living. Not
even in the name of the apostles  who started it. So, there was
nothing wrong initially with naming a church with a country where it
was established. If it was not wrong then, why it should be wrong now to call a
church
in India as Indian Church and church in China as Chinese church.
We all have Christ's nationality in his Kingdom. That is the new
Isreal. In his kingdom we are not Syrians, Indians, Greeks, or
Romans.

But, with invasion and colonization;  people started to colonise
God's people of other countries for their materialistic benefits. I
am not ignoring the fact that there were fathers who were real
exceptions and worked for the good of the poor in whichever country
they operated. Look at the western christian missionaries coming to
India these days. Half of them are spies of western countries. Why
this happens. Because people misuse religion for their strategic or
commercial purposes. Ultimtely religion is used to overpower poor and
ignorant people. Whether it is done by Roman, Angilican or Syrian
churches it is the same. May be part of the delegation arrived with
Knai thoma or those who arrived later had this materialistic
ambitions in their mind and they split our people.

How can you say there is no temporal subordination to the Syrian
Church. Your Malankara churches in the middle east and the west are
direct under the Holy Patriarch. Is it not a temporal subordination?
I think the authority to install a Catholicose or remove a Cathlicose
or any Bishop  is vested in the Holy patriarch. The Bishops are the
final authority in a Diocese. That is why I said earlier that the
spiritual and temporal powers are intertwined in a hierarchal system. You cannot
separate it. That is why this " Kai Veppu " is an issue
for the Indian courts. Manoj, you cannot make dark by closing your
eyes.

About the people switching sides and not relinquishing their
positions, I can very well confirm that they are number one
opportunists. And about people switching sides many times; they are
the mother of all opportunists.

Prayerfully,
Ronnie Daniel
ID # 2304

Greetings!

My name is Robert Lyons.  I am a presbyter (priest) of the Christian Church -
Synod of Saint Timothy, currently residing in a religious house in central
Indiana.  I am under the jurisdiction of Bishop Craig M. Davis, and St. Alban's
House (the religious house) is a part of the Church of the Transfiguration,
+Davis' local Church.

I grew up a Roman Catholic, and left when I began discovering the theological
and liturgical riches of the other rites and ecclesial communions of the Church.

I hope to learn from this list more about the Syriac Christian traditions,
particularlly in private prayer, the Liturgy of the Hours, and the Divine
Liturgy.

With my prayers for you, I ask your prayers in return,

Father Robert Lyons, SST
Presbyter in Residence:  Saint Alban's House, Anderson, IN
Chaplain:  Wishard Memorial Hospital, Indianapolis, IN
Associate Pastor:  The Church of the Transfiguration (+Davis)
Member # 2315

Dear Binoy,

You cannot make me angry Binoy or rather I refuse to be angry with you. Like
Manoj, you too speak your mind. Thats why I liked your posts and let me quote
from your mail about the Kolenchery church issue:

" While the entire parish needs the church to be opened the IOC bishop doesn't
want to do that because of selfish motives and greed. Kolenchery is a big source
of income for them. They doesn't want to loose it."

They dont want to loose it means They Own it now. Your above quote proves  who
is controlling Kolenchery church. Why you need another court verdict or general
body election to prove this fact. You have mentally accepted it and what you are
doing now is a sin against your consience and your beleif that it is an IOC
church. May be you can create some problems and win Kolenchery or an other
church. But, your conscience or inner mind will be holding you guilty for
maniplulating the situation to take advantage of the poor administration of the
IOC church. This behaviour is what I called SIN which many of us never
understands.

Toronto Church issue: I read your comment. My comment about any church is that a
church where members rfuse to give kiss of peace each other will perish. Even if
there is one single member who refuse to give kiss of peace to his brother. This
is God's rule and you and I cannot stop it from happening. I would suggest that
you study more of the Toronto church history from any of the these forums and
then I will disucss with  you on this issue.

About my posts in this forum, I think I earlier wrote that my first post was an
accident and it has continued thus far. Your thoughts are right, may be if the
honourable members ignore my posts I will for sure discontinue. But, one thing I
noticed that after I started writing politely to you, I think your hostility
towards the IOC reduced a bit. Is that not a good thing. Let us not burst into
anger. It will affect our own health. Let us understand what is happening around
us and make an informed decision about anything before jumping into conclusions.
Also, let us clear our misunderstanding.

Looks like you digged out all my past posts in all teh  forums. Why you didnt
pick up my posts in the IOC whre I strongly argued against our IOC leadership
and against the court case.

I appreciate your love for your church. But, when you present facts, make sure
you paint a true picture of everything.

Prayerfully
Ronnie Daniel
ID # 2304

How is the current situation in India different from when the Greek Orthodox
Church decided to become autocephalous?

"The first national Church to emerge from the independence struggles of the 19th
Century was the Church of Greece. On the Feast of the Annunciation, March 25,
1821, Germanos, the Archbishop of Patras, raised the banner of revolt against
the Turks (which cost the Patriarch of Constantinople, Gregory, his life). This
war of independence was successful and, as the Hierarchs of the Greek Church did
not wish to remain subject to a captive Patriarch in Constantinople, in 1833 a
synod of Greek Bishops declared their Church autocephalous, although this was
not officially recognized by Constantinople until 1850. In 1864, the Diocese of
the Ionian Islands was added to the Church of Greece, and in 1881 the Dioceses
of Thessaly and a part of Epirus were likewise joined to her. This Church is the
third largest in the Orthodox world and is ruled by a Holy Synod, presided over
by the Archbishop of Athens." http://www.stots.edu/article.php?id=56

Matthew T
Member ID # 2312

Dear Deacon,

I find it hard to believe that the ecumenical bodies are really concerned about
the indigenousness or autocephaly of member churches. Those bodies are a
platform for the scattered members, of the Church as Christ founded it, to try
and come together on matters
of common interest. IOC does not become a member by virtue of its
autocephaly/independence/indigenous nature, as those are not the criteria for
admission.

The problem with the IOC is one of identity, they desperately seek to establish
an Indian identity for themselves and end up without much success other than a
name. As many members of this forum have pointed out, we (JSC) are comfortable
with our Syriac heritage and Indian culture and have no issues with it, but when
a group/church like IOC is desperately seeking any available justification for
their 'independant unique existence' and cant find one, we can only
sympathise with them.

I have had the chance to attend some ecumenical meetings in India and from my
experience members from all the churches of kerala with the syriac heritage -
JSC, IOC, Marthoma, Chaldean and the Thozhiyoor church do identify themselves as
Syrian in heritage.

On a lighter note the IOC is indeed independant and indigenous, their origin was
in kottayam and hence the claim of indigenousness is a valid one and their
spoken words and deeds do reflect a desperation to be independent, unfortunately
for them they are shackled by centuries of subordination to Middle-Easterners ;)

And for the claim of autocephaly, it is not a status to be taken or claimed by
oneself, it is one to be granted by a hierarch. and it is precisely at this
point that the IOC claim of autocephaly falls flat, if it was granted then who
granted it?

Prayers and regards,

Abraham Kurian
Member id 1011

Dear Mr. Ronnie,

I'm so encouraged by your last response.  I think we are on the same
wave-length, but a few misconceptions are blocking 100% agreement. But overall,
I was pleased with your response (at least your reply to me).

Perhaps you are right in that I am adding fuel to the fire.  My intention is
simply to side with God and hope that the light of His truth be a point of
unification for us all.

You wrote:

>And Mike, I think you are adding fuel to the fire
>by saying Moses, Jesus Christ and St. Thomas were
>all Syrian Christians. Where did this " Semite "
>come from ?? Are you saying Moses or Jesus or Thomas
>were of Arabic descend ?? No way. Let me know where
>did you learn this from. What I learned is, all
>these three people were the descendents of Abraham
>and Issac , that means the Israelites.

Though TECHNICALLY all of the above people can be considered "Syrian
Christians", I did not say it like so.  I said this:

"Thomas, Moses, and the Syrian fathers [who traveled to India] were all Semites
from the Hebrew/Aramaic tradition."

RE:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOCM-FORUM/message/6967

As you can see, I qualified my statement by establishing the common ground:
"Semites of the Hebrew/Aramaic tradition."

As to your first question:  Where did the Semites come from?

The Semites are those who trace their heritage back to Shem, one of the sons of
Noah.  For reference, see Genesis, Ch. 10.  They include all sorts of different
people, but the key person to focus on in the genealogy of Genesis is Aram (and
also Ashur, but not for this discussion).

In chapter 11, we see Abram, being from Ur of the Chaldeas (this is in Southern
Iraq).  As we can see, Abram (Abraham) is from the line of Aram.  In Deuteronomy
26:5, you can see how the Hebrews even recognize Abraham as the "wandering
Aramean."  Syrian and Aramean mean the same thing, but over time there came a
distinction.  The Arameans who were believers were called Syrians (some
translations of the Bible opt to use the word "Syrian" instead of Aramean since
they are synonymous); those who are Pagans were called Arameans.  As we can see,
Moses, the incarnation of our Lord (Jesus Christ), and Thomas were of this
Hebrew-Aramaic tradition.

Am I saying Moses, et. al were "Arabic descended"?

No, I'm not.  The Arabs were from Abraham and Hagar.  So while some could argue
that they are related to the Hebrew tribe via Abraham, the general consensus is
that the Hebrew people come from Jacob(Abraham's grandson, AKA Israel).

As you rightly commented, all people who constitute the Church are the New
Israel.  So just as you correctly pointed out that our connection to Moses,
Abraham, Israel, Christ, etc. is a spiritual one, that is the same connection we
have with the Syrian fathers who loved the Keralites to the point of death.

You're again right when you say one doesn't need to go through "either Syria, or
Rome, or Greece or Russia to be eligible to be the NEW ISRAEL."  One doesn't
need to go through India either, nor any earthly nation.  In fact, nationalism
is considered a major problem among the Byzantine Orthodox (at least recognized
by the Patriarch of Constantinople):

"The Holy Orthodox Church has searched long for a language with which to address
nationalism, amid the strife and havoc this new ideology created in the Orthodox
lands of the Eastern Empire for much of the 19th century. In 1872 a Great synod,
held in our Patriarchal Cathedral at the Phanar, in the name of the Prince of
Peace, issued an unqualified condemnation of the sin of phyletism, saying, `We
renounce, censure, and condemn, racism, that is, social discrimination, ethnic
feuds, hatreds, and dissensions within the Church of Christ..."
- Patriarch Bartholamew, addressed the Bosphorus Conference.

How can one be the "Indian Israel" if there is no more Jew nor Greek, but one in
Christ Jesus?  You don't even live in India anymore, you're writing from North
America, so by definition, you can't be part of the "Indian Israel."  Now the
question is, have any of us Syrian Orthodox who are not from the country of
Syria (and believe me, I know all sorts of different Syrian Orthodox folks, not
just Mallus or Middle Easterners) had a relationship that was mutually
UNrewarding?  Perhaps the folks in the IO church have, as they made their entire
existence on being anti-foreigner.  Certainly, what the Syrian fathers have done
for the spirituality of India over the ages is indisputable. Likewise, many
Syrians have found their spirituality while in India. This last month's (August
05) issue of Shroro contains such an article, relaying the story of the Middle
Eastern Syrian Orthodox youth who went on pilgrimage in India.
http://www.socdigest.org/articles/02aug05.html

The more I see IO folks chat about this subject, the more I get the impression
that they have an inferiority complex among them, and this nationalist movement
is their way of dealing with that.  I pray that the IO folks with such a mindset
acquire the Malayalee Syrian Orthodox mind that is wonderfully Indian and yet
completely Syrian Orthodox, and at peace with their Indian identity.

Ronnie my friend, I'm happy by your last email.  If we can keep clearing up
these misconceptions, man, we're going to be on the same page and the Christian
witness we'll leave for the world is going to be remarkable!

In Christ,
Mike Wingert
#0902

Is this Nadathurackal a kind of idol worship like the Sreekovil opening of
Hindus. Do Christians need such symbols for praying through St.Mary. For hindus
the idol of the temple is in which the might of the God is " aawahichirikkunnu".
So manarcad Church can be called Mary Devi temple.

John Zachariah
St. George Simhasana Church, Piralassery
Member # 0968

>       2. THOUSANDS WITNESS 'NADATHURAKKAL' AT THE
> MANARCAD ST. MARY'S CATHEDRAL

> Message: 2
>    Date: 8 Sep 2005 04:04:33 -0000
>    From: "Malankara Voice"
> <malankaravoice@...>
> Subject: THOUSANDS WITNESS 'NADATHURAKKAL' AT THE
> MANARCAD ST. MARY'S CATHEDRAL
>
> THOUSANDS WITNESS 'NADATHURAKKAL' AT THE MANARCAD
> ST. MARY'S CATHEDRAL
>
> Kottayam, Sep 7:  Thousands thronged the St. Mary's
> Jacobite Syrian Cathedral at Manarcaud, near here,
> on Wednesday to witness the highly revered
> 'nadathurakkal', the annual ritual; in which the
> icon of Mother Mary with Infant Jesus will be
> displayed for the public.  The opening of the main
> altar is the most important of the ritual in the
> ongoing eight-day Lent and annual feast of Mother
> Mary the Immaculate at the cathedral.
>
> The 'nadathurakkal' was performed in an atmosphere
> marked by prayers and cries of devotees, who had
> arrived from far and near.  A lull in the torrential
> rains and a clear sky during the time of the
> auspicious occasion had brought a sea of faithful to
> the church. Earlier in the day Jacobite Church
> Catholicos Baselios Thomas I offered a 'Mooninmel'
> Qurbana. In the evening, thousands of faithful took
> part in the ceremonial procession. Traditional art
> forms like 'margamkali' and 'parichamuttukali' were
> displayed in the church premises later. ENS
>
> Photos & News at:
>
http://www.geocities.com/malankaravoice10/20050908manarcad.htm

"The great mystery of the incarnation remains a mystery eternally. Not only is
what is not yet seen of it greater than what  has been revealed - for it is
revealed merely to the extent that those saved by it can grasp it - but also
even what is  revealed still remains entirely hidden and is by no means known as
it really is. What I have said should not appear  paradoxical. For God is beyond
being and transcends all beyond-beingness; and so, when He wished to come down
to the level  of being, He became being in a manner which transcends being.
Thus, too, although transdending man, yet out of love for man  He truly became
man by taking on the substance of men; but the manner in which He became man
always remains unrevealed, for  He was made man in a way which transcends man."

St. Maximus the Confessor.

--------------------------------------------------------------

"Precious in the sight of the Lord Is the death of His saints. O Lord, truly I
am Your servant; I am Your servant, the son  of Your maidservant." Psalms
116:15-16

---------------------------------------------------------------

Prayer Requests:
If you have an update on a prayer request, please let me know.

Please remember the following in your prayers:

The Victims of Hurricane Katrina.
The Christian Minority in Noshara, Pakistan.
Fadia - Breast Cancer.
Merna - 9 yrs old girl with brain hemorrhage - multiple skull fractures. Merna
is conscious and talking but apparently she  had lost hearing in one ear. She is
doing better overall.
Tara - Systematic Lupus and financial and family problems
George k - Cancer
Frances - Brain Tumor
Delaney - 8 mon. old baby, hospitalized with severe burns and possible limb
amputation.
Peter, Bishoy and Neveen - healing from the loss of both their parents.
Alber - Cancer
K - Depression, anxiety, addiction, pride and spiritual estrangement
E. Tawadros - confusion and depression.
Andrew Eskander - car accident. Andrew is out of the hospital and is doing great
E. Sidhom - Cancer.
Adel Gendy - 10 years old with kidney failure, needs a kidney transplant.
Bernard - Various drug addiction problems
Joseph - Prostrate Cancer
Mary - Breast cancer
A.K Matthew - Colon Cancer
Enyat - severe diabetes.
Safwat - Kidney problems and Anxiety.
Samy - Bone cancer.
MS - Mercy, Comfort, Strength, Healing and Protection
AAM -- Love, Healing, Comfort, Strength, Support and Guidance
MM -- Love, Healing, Comfort, Strength, Support and Guidance
SE -- Love, Healing
GE -- Love, Comfort, Strength, Support, Guidance
Helen - severe epileptic seizures.
Stephan - 48 years old, muscular dystrophy, diabetes, stroke.
Scott - 4 months old baby desperately in need of a bone marrow donor.
Douglas McLead - Cancer and kidney failure.
Mrs. McLead - Parkinson disease.
Fr Benjamin, Photini, Marina, Miriam, Moses.
Nicholas - constant back pain.
Michael - 9 years old boy with a progressive brain tumor.
Sarah - Back problems and might need an operation soon.
Mayrvat and her 3 kids. She has been separated from her kids.
Elizabeth - bi-polar disease and other problems.
Fr. Constantine S. Palassis - suffers from symptoms of dementia.
Heidy - Depression and other problems.
Esther - Intestinal problems.
Nick - chemotherapy.
Sue S. - Advanced Cancer.
Helen P. - severe depression and diabetes.
Pamela P. - chronic depression and financial difficulties.
Shafika - kidney failure.
Mary Beth - Obesity & Diabetes.
Jean - Neurological back problems.
Therese - Emotional problems.
Reggie - Cancer.
Detra - Stress related health problems.
Walter Sr. - Depression.
Denise I. - Breast Cancer.
Cuba Plain - cancer that is high up in the breast.
Zouhair - stomach cancer.
Magdy - brain tumor.
John Rittel - cancer of the lymph node and voice box.
Eugene - completion of immigration procedures and securing a job.
H. Adel - finish the immigration papers and preparation successfully.
E.Tawadros - Strength, Support, Guidance, wisdom and success.
Shareen - Stays out of trouble, gets closer to God, and Leads a pure life.
Mark H - MS
Mamdooh, Nahed, Marina and Cyril - May the will of The Lord be done.
The mission of the Coptic Church in Africa and throughout the world.
The Christians in Egypt. "Blessed is Egypt My people." Isaiah 19:25

Please remember me in your prayers.

Please pray for the peace of the world.

"casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you." 1 Peter 5:7

" There MUST also be FACTIONS AMONG YOU " (1 Cor.  11:19).

THESE " FACTIONS " or CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS have resulted in  their DELUDED
FOLLOWERS being "DIVIDED UP FOR MONEY and HATING ONE
ANOTHER " (Jude 11,19. Matt 24:10,12.)

Within  the following" FACTIONS " of Christianity.,

Roman catholic, Greek, Coptic  and Russian orthodox, Anglican, Calvinist,
Lutheran, Churches of christ,  Seventh day adventists, Congregational, Baptist,
Methodist, Presbyterian,  Pentecostals, Assemblies of god, Apostolic assemblies,
Victory outreach  assemblies, C.O.R.E. assemblies, Exclusive and non-exclusive
Brethren  assemblies, together with in excess of *TWENTY EIGHT THOUSAND*'
Evangelical '  FACTIONS which are found within Christianity. (** NOTE: Barrett's
"  World-wide Encyclopedia of Christianity " records in the 1988 edition:

"  In Christianity there are in the region of 28,000 ( YES! Twenty Eight
Thousand ) different denominations "('FACTIONS'); and further describes  this as
" Sectarianism run riot ". This encyclopedia also makes the  following damning
statement: "(the members of) these distinct  denominations  ALL HATE ONE 
ANOTHER".)

If St.Peter is the founder of all churches then why he is equated along with
St.Paul in 4th 'Thubaden'.Only St.Paul is read in all ceremonies like marriage,
funeral service and compulsorily in all Qurbana. We should have read only
St.Peter in all these ceremonies. In fact Christ has called him satan at a
moment of anger and Church history says Christianity spread to other countries
only due to St.Paul. St. Peter was of the opinion that salvation is meant only
for jews.I have great respect for St.Peter. But we should not mislead anybody.

John Zachariah
Member # 0968

Dear Ronnie,

Iam not giving a reply to all questions that you have raised ( time and again
these questions were raised in this forum to which many have given replies too)

I will contain myself to the subject addresed to me.

""""1. Reply to Mr. Baby - Question  about the  1934 constitutions applicability
on the parish churches.  I got that information from an article by HG Poulose
Mor Gregorios of blessed memory on the following website.

http://www.paulosmargregorios.info/Nazrani/nazrani%204.pdf

I believe HG was well respected in both factions and that's why I depended on
it.If you have more accurate information on this, please update me or send me a
copy of the 1958 Supreme court verdict. I am still waiting for answers to the
questions I raised on the 2003 high court verdict which some one has forwarded
to me.""""

You have given a link to the usual IOC propaganda.

My question was very clear to you.  Tell me were in 95 SC judgement its written
as you claimed, that once a parish church accepts the 34 constitution, it cannot
pull back out of it???

The answer can be very straight.

At this age its very easy to get hold of any judgements that come out of SC. You
can have it in front of you in seconds!!!

Read it and then make a comment rather than depending on something else, even if
its the writing of a Bishop.

I can forward to you two articles writen by two bishops presently in your church
giving an entirely different version of the SC judgement!!!.

Will you go by the words of those bishops!!!

Or else i can send you a hard copy of 95 SC if you want.

Not 58 SC judgement as you have written but 95 judgement. ( 58 judgement is
history now. no point in talking of that now.)

Ronnie,

I will try to explain it to you in simple language, if you are in a mood to
listen.

Consider that both of us were having a legal battle on some civil issues. For
decades we fight it out in various courts of this land making use of the best
legal brains in this country.

And finally a verdict comes from the highest judicial power of this land.

It will be either in favour of you or in favour of me or it can be in such a
fashion that both of us have won or lost.

BUT COMING OUT OF THE COURT WE CANNOT YELL AT REJI, THE OWNER OF THIS FORUM,
THAT HE HAS LOST THE CASE!!!!

How can that be!!! Either i have lost or you have lost. It cannot be somebody
else who was not party to the case.

Same is the situation in this case.

In late seventies when IOC represented by its catholicos/malankara metran and
bishops initiated this suit, what was their basic prayer to the court.

That certain individuals like present Sresta Bava and other bishops and priests
should not be permited to enter and conduct services in 1064 parishes that were
supposed to belong to the said church.

There are two parts to this.

First is that, certain religious dignitories should be banned from entry to
parish churches belonging to the MOSC.

Second is that a list of 1064 churches are given along with this case. But
wheather this claim of MOSC is true or not have to be settled in another civil
case.

Now when this case came up for hearing, scores of parish churches approched the
court with plea for them to be heard in this case. But the court declined
stating that the issues concerning parish churches are not being discussed in
this case and hense they need
not be party to this case.

So the subsequent 20 year legal battle was between the MOSC and certain persons
to which the parish churches were never a party.

The ninth respondant of the Original Suit is Fr Roy Paul Vettikattle, who is a
cousin of my father.

If IOC claims that Fr Roy Paul Vettikattle have lost the case what's my problem.
It doesnt affect me or my parish church.

No court can give a judgement against an individual or organisation without
hearing what they have to tell the court.

If the rights of somebody is affected in the process of a case the court will
issue notice to that person to appear before the court and give his part.
Without that things wont be decided.

That is what exactly happened in this case too. The parish churches were never
party to this case. And hence the SC have very clearly said in its judgement "no
orders TOUCHING the rights of the parish churches can be given in this case"

Ofcourse the SC accepted the 34 constitution as the constitution of MOSC. (no
problem for us, as we are not part of MOSC).

Who is the rightfull owner of a parish church is an entirely different civil
dispute and has to be settled in an entirely different civil case.

Appeals courts like HC or SC wont interfere in that, as the matter has to come
up before the trial courts which are in the lowest rung in judiciary. From there
only it takes a tedious journey towards New Delhi.

And mind you it has to be different cases for each parish church. You cannot
club everything together and go for a dash.

I remember what Perumbally Thirumeni had thundered in the Patriarchal Day
celebrations in Thiruvalla.

"" If you want to settle the issue, we will discuss as brothers and settle it.
But if you want to settle it only through courts,then we have enough ammunition
for another hundred years case""

rgds

Baby Gleeson Zachariah
St George Jacobite Syrian Church
Arakunnam.
ID NO. 2304

Dear Brother CJ,

Thanks for your reply.
Your question was :
quote

My question is "if the subject (HGs) you talk about and submit
yourself is going or doing against the hierachy of our chuch, what
will you do to them? Are you not bound to defend your faith? If you
talk and practice only about submission in such a situation, who will
defend the faith (here the Orthodoxy)? It is a fact that today's
Syrian Orthodox Church is a ramnant. For centuries of draining from
the faithfuls put this Oldest Church established in AD 37 still a
minute percentage in the whole world of Christiandom.

unquote

I think you need to explain to me what is the faith you are talking
about. Is it our faith as a believer in Christ. Or is it our faith as
a believer in a system established by men. What is important to
you ?? Christ or the system ??
Also, you need to explain to me what is your meaning of a Church. For
me church is the body of Christ through which a sinner like me gets
salvation. So, salvation is the product or fruit of faith.
Syrian Christian orthodoxy or Indian Christian Orthodoxy  is a  "
system " consisting of a heirarchy, liturgy and traditioins made by
men to achieve salvation which is the fruit of faith. As you said
there are other systems as well like the Roman Catholics and
Protesants, who follows similar systems.

Systems  changes with circumstnces. Thats why I asked in  my last
mail why the Holy Syrian Christians like you adopted a " Minnu" or
thalikettu in the middle of your Marriage sacrament. Is it something
established by Abraham, Issac or  Jacob.

Systems evolves in a church. No system is perfect. Core faith as
Jesus christ as son of God remains. Everything else changes and one
that changes or evolves cannot be part of our faith.

System in itself does not produce results. We had a Catholicate
system running in Persia. It met its extinction. We have a Syrian
Christian system in the Anthiocan church. It cannot get too many
people to christianity in Syria. And may reach its extinction sooner
or later. The one system working now and got people to christianity
is the Indian system. People usually follow and trust a system which
is working. That's why our Indian fathers are trying to develop a
system which is  Indian indigenous System.

I wont say it is a faith, it is a system which might be changed
again. Say in another hundreds of  years the Indian Christians will
face their extinction and the Orthodox church will be replanted to
North America as American orthodox Church with a St. Thomas Lineage.
Is it bad ?? I don't think so. That's the way churches evolve. That's
the way  Persian Catholicate became Maphrianate, then to Syrian and
re-established as Catholicate in India and so on.
I can understand your sympathy to the Syrian Church and your endavour
to prop it up as long as you can. I too would have liked to do that
in return for the good thing they gave us in the past. But to me the
Syrian church looks totally undemocratic. Even the Roman Catholic
church elect their Pope with participation of all the ArchBishops
around the world and has chance for every archbishop to become the
Pope. How can a church with a chance for only some races to become
the Patriarch be democratic and Christian.  Freedom and liberty is
the most precious value any one should cherish. This is what God gave
to Adam and Eve. I know that people in your faction are not keen on
that freedom. But, I am concerned about you CJ and your other
colleagues. That's why I am writing again and again.
I still wish you remain as a separate church , but independent  from
foreign rule.

And one more advice : Subit to the system by all means, but dont put
your faith on a system which is evolving. It is not the system which
is going to save us. It is the body of christ which is goiing to save
us.

Prayerfuly
Ronnie Daniel
ID # 2304

Dear Ronnie,

Again let me make it clear that the church feud is not that complicated as this
whole discussion has made it seem. The facts are there in black and white. But
again the dispute comes when these facts are interpreted  depending on one's
affiliations. You are free to choose whatever you think is right. But my only
request has been that, if at the end of the whole discussion , if you have seen
the truth, and if that truth does not conform to your viewepoint, you should be
bold enough to accept that you were wrong. In malayalam we have this saying '
Veenniduth kidannu uruluga '. This should not be the case. In short, the
arguments should not be just for the sake of it.

We do welcome you to raise your questions and doubts regarding the Syrian
Orthodox church on this Forum. I am sure our learned members will be able to
give you convincing answers. We will be able to provide you with convincing
answers because we are sure about what we argue. We are not writing here to
justify our actions as has been the case with IOC Historians. You just ask a
simple doubt about IOC and our renowned IOC HIStorian will take you on a world
tour before finally putting all the blame for each and every problem the church
is facing today on the Patriarchs of Antioch. We have no reason to be that
desperate because we believe in what we write and we write what we believe in.

There is no problem in your church changing its name to Indian Orthodox Church
or Indian Israel or whatever it is. But again the ambiguity is the continued
usage of the term Orthodox Syrian church in the constitution and the court
cases. Why is there a lack of uniformity ? Or is it to take the leverage of the
word ' Syrian ' to claim our churches in the courts ? I am leaving it to your
judgement. This morning I was chatting with an IOC friend. He asks what is wrong
in us being autocephalos ? We dont have any problem in you being autocephalos or
independent or indigenous or whatever you may like to call it. But Please leave
us alone. Please dont drag us to the courts . Please do not close our churches.
Please allow our dead to be buried peacefully. Please do not have our people
beaten up by Police. Please do not try to block the visit of our spiritual head.
Please do not spread rumours and allegations against our spiritual leaders . I
dont think we are asking for too much. Or is it that the very existence of your
church depends on all the above mentioned factors? If that is the case how can
it be called a christian church? Again you can decide for yourself.

I did not know that just because the UAE and American dioceses are directly
under the Patriarch it meant that money is being siphoned off to Syria. This is
again in keeping with the traditions of the church. When Mor Augen was ordained
as Catholicose he was for India and the east. Just see below a passage taken
from http://sor.co.edu

"It was decided that the headquarters of the Maphryono should be in India and
that the jurisdiction of the Maphrianate is limited to India and to the East of
India only." - Damascus Patriarchal Magazine, 3rd year, 1964, No. 21; pp. 6&7"

This was what was agreed upon in 1964. So it is only canonical for the UAE and
US dioceses to be under the Patriarch. And again the Patriarch does not
excersise his authority directly over these parishes. It is done through
canonically ordained Metropolitans. And please, if you have any details of
property and money being taken to syria please do put it on the Forum. We also
would like to see those details.

Though you may not like it... let me take you a bit back into the history.
PLease do go through this with an unbiased mind...

Just let us look at this issue impartially. Vattasseril Thirumeni was ordained
by HH Mor Abdedaloho Patriarch. Hope there is no confusion here. If he was to be
ordained by Mor Abdedaloho and not by Mor Abdel Messaiah... then it should have
been bcos Mor Abdedaloho was considered as the rightful Patriarch and not the
other way round. And quotings from Malankara Edavaka Panchankam of that time
also points to this fact. Now when the treasury key issue was raised and there
was rift between the Malankara Metropoilitan and the co-trustees , we all know
it was bcos Vattasseril thirumeni wanted to handle the treasury all by himself
which was a violation of the traditions followed until then and it was an
unilateral decision by him. Hope you will agree with me on this point also. Now
the rift was between the Malankara Metropolitan himself and the co-trustees.
They had to look up to the higher authority who in this case was the reigning
Patriarch HH Mor Abdedaloho. So was it wrong on the part of the Patriarch to
point out the mistake on the part of Vattasseril thirumeni ? Remember this was
the same Patriarch who ordained vattasseril thirumeni. Now if Vattasseril
thirumeni bcos of his stubborn nature did rebel against the patriarch for not
supporting his line of argument, is the Patriarch to be blamed?

Let us imagine a different situation . If the Patriarch would have supported
Vattasseril thirumeni on this would'nt the history have been different ? Would
we have heard the autocephaly, independent church, Indian Orthodox church, St.
Thomas throne and all these mindless court cases ? I firmly believe no.

So Ronnie, we have been trying time and again to make you understand that you
are in a wrong side. Do you want to be a part of a church who have dragged their
brothers to the court , have closed down churches, have spread all sorts of lies
to justify their actions and have no shame to resort to any unchristian acts
just to justify their
existence? Please do see the truth and come back to the mother church. We would
be more than happy to welcome you back into our fold.

Best Regards
Manoj George
Member ID 1309

Editorial of the 'Church Weekly'  (a Malankara Orthodox faction publication)--- 
August 2005 issue
http://www.geocities.com/malankaravoice10/20050909churchweekly.htm

For more Links, visit:
http://www.geocities.com/malankaravoice10/news_section.htm
http://malankara.cjb.net/  or
http://www.geocities.com/malankaravoice10

Dear moderators,

OUR  CHURCHES  IN AUSTRALIA.

I had  made an enquiry  on the subject sometime back  and got replies through 
IOC & SOCM  members including  some  Respected Bishops. Now this one is
specifically  addresed to one Mr. E.S. John  from Australia  whose postings are
often  seen .

We are  planning a visiting trip to Australia soon and Mr.John being  a local
person  may be able to help me in this matter.  At the outset please note that 
I am not a fanatic and our Churches of either faction is OK with us ( we have
members of  both the factions  - by ancesteral  lineage  - in our famiy and none
is particular of a specific  one when it comes to  liturgy ). Our daughter and
family  have migrated to Perth - Australia  recently.

They are located at  "CARLISLE" WA-6101.   In the absence of  a known  Church of
our community in the area  the family is now attending services  at the local
Catholic church.

I shall be thankful to  Mr. John if he will be able to guide us to any of  our
Churches  nearest to the location mentioned.

With due respects,
JUNAS from Mumbai
# 1022

Dear friends and brethren,

The September 2005 edition of "Shroro - The Syriac Orthodox Christian Digest" is
now online http://www.socdigest.org/

Your dedication to the faith has given birth to Shroro, and your interest has
made the e-magazine an immediate success.

We ask that you pray for us, so that we may better serve our community's
interests.

In HIS Love
Shroro Editorial Board
http://www.socdigest.org/