In OO Forum, Mr. Paul Oommen quoted the following as a proof for the throne of
St.Thomas:

****
Arrival of Mar Gregorios of Jerusalem Recorded at Church at Raccat,
Muvattupuzha, India: "During the time of Patriarch Moran Mar Ignatius Yakob 11,
Maphrian Mar Baselius Bahnam and Mar Kurilos Yuachim who was on the throne of
St. Thomas the Apostle of Malabar, in the year of our Lord 1857, on the mid-lent
day 13the Meenam, Patriarch Gregorios V of Jerusalem alias Abded Nuharo of Uraha
arrived at this Church."
*****

Can someone who knows clarify the authenticity & content of ths record? Was Mar
Kurilos Yuachim a Maphrian? Was his seat called 'throne of St.Thomas'?  Are
there other non-Nestorian records referring to the throne of St.Thomas

Thanks,
Thomas
St.George Church, Karingachira
=============================================================================
From the desk of the moderators

There are rare references to St. Thomas’s "throne" in old records, but these
must not be understood in the same sense as IOC now claims.  It is true that
Rakkad church has such an inscription. But the context needs to be considered.

Mor Kurillos Yuyakim was the Reesh Episcopa (Chief Bishop) of Malankara, not a
Maphryono (Catholicos). Mor Baselious Bahnam referred was likely the last
Maphryono of the Madenhoyo (East). The title "Patriarch of Jerusalem" is a
misnomer; the Patriarchate of Jerusalem as recognized in the Nicene Synod did
not continue in the SOC. What the SOC had and continues to have in Jerusalem is
an archbishop.

Mor Kurillos Yuyakim was delegated by the Patriarch of Antioch to administer the
St. Thomas Christians. As a bishop subordinate to even the Maphryono, if Mor
Kurillos were sitting on the throne of St. Thomas, then this so called throne
had the status only of that of the seat of a bishop. Remember also at this time
the Reesh Episcopa Mor Kurillos delegated by the Patriarch was seated on this
"throne" rather than the Malankara Metropolitan at the same time Mor Dionysius
of Cheppaud. It is very much detrimental to IOC's argument then that this throne
of St. Thomas is the basis for an "autocephalous church" in Malankara.

We have uploaded a related Malayalam article from Fr.Varghese Kallapara's book
published years back in our photo gallery with MSN.

Please visit-:
http://groups.msn.com/SOCM-FORUM/clarifications.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=10\
6

Dear Prem Jacob

I agree with you. But moderators are of opinion ( which they posted a year
before or so) that this is the truth. IOC memebers should post their ideas and
we answer them in christain way!

This is the truth.  Unless you are blind,( of heart) any one will understand
this.

We Jacobites have been in existence for 2000 years now and Thomas P or IOC is
not the first nor the last to persecute this church.

Even the Roman , soldiers who crucified Lord , decided NOT TO divided his clock.
so they cast lots.  But so called disciples of LORD has divided HIS  BODY into
so many pieces.  Who is happy in this ?  Definitely not LORD. Defnitely Not
apstles who were martyred to built this church.  Defnitely not early church
fathers ! Evey one knows who is happy !

Why Mr. Thomas P, gets in recuriting people from SOC? SOC  is a church
established by LORD and it has sacraments and every thig required for salvation.
why  not Mr. Thomas P not recuriting from  catholics nor Marthomites nor Hindus
or Muslims?

Irrespective of we proved to so many times, he is at wrong place and his is not
church he has not listened.

During the Lord's ministry, the Pharisee were expeciting Messiah and were
preaching Messiah.  But they could not "see" Lord.  Same for all this. They are
in a church but not in "the church".

Let us pray for them . Let us try to convert them. They have time to repent and
come back till thier end.

we are the truth. and they are lie. So be confident. and learn the faith so that
others ( IOC, Protestants ) dont snatch you.

regards
Paul Philipose
St. Ignatious SOC

--- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, CJ Varughese wrote:
>
> Dear Br. Thomas,
>
> This refers to your message no.4in Digest No.1035, wherein you
pointed out the following:

Dear All,

In the posting of Mr. Thomas P he is hint the SOC is going away from the hloy
ortodox faith. The IOC people are just blind or they they never go through their
own publications. They have published a book called "Orthadox Vijnanakosham" in
which they a lot of new faiths. They are trying to rewrite the history of the
churches. In the section of Nestor they are showing that it was not a serious
matter and the difference in faith is negligiable. This is by forseeing a
possibility to link with the churches that follows Noesthorial faith and to get
an international address. Are they beliving the faith "Theotocose or
Chrisotocose". Are they calling St: Mary as Daiva Mathavu or Kristhumathavu.

They should remember one thing that in 1983 when they brought different church
leaders from abraod to compansate the Apostolic visit of HH in 1982, they had to
send workers of MRF & Malayala Manorama as audiance in the meetings as there was
no IOC members ready to accept the leaders.

They tried to make some understandings with the RC churh , which was not
succeeded recently. (As fox told,  the grapes are swore now).

The RC is not following Nesthoriose or Ariose ar any of such faults. More over
in the statment of HH Patriarch and Pope it was clearly mentioned what was the
difference and what was the reasons for that.Ours is a universal chuch. Not a
local body like IOC

DEAR THOMAS P.
WHO IS GOING AWAY FROM THE TRUE FAITH. LOOK IN TO YOUR CHURCH AND ASK YOUR
CHURCH LEADERS

Aby Abraham
St. Marys Church
Manarcad




> Let us remain optimistic, that together we can overcome the problems and
> permanently keep reserve some space in our heart for an Orthodox Unity in
> India. If we study the life of fathers of the past, we learn that their
> stress was on teaching the Orthodox faith. Good example is Parumala Bava.
> Our struggles are NOT related to the spiritual aspects of Orthodoxy. Few
> terms we discuss often are 'throne', universal, supremacy, .... seldom we
> hear the word Orthodox in news report and media events.
>
> Especially your remarks "If we study the life of fathers of the past, we
>learn that their stress was on teaching the Orthodox faith. Good example
>is Parumala Bava. Our struggles are NOT related to the spiritual aspects
>of Orthodoxy".

Dear all,

95 SC judgement is one judgement which IOC have manipulated grossly.

Right from beginning IOC have been harping on the minority judgement of justice
sahai.But when a division bench gives a judgement, it is the majority judgement
which will prevail. The minority judgement finds a place only in the records
room.

In the church case, there was a fractured judgement in 95. One judge(sahai)went
for an entirely different judgement from the other two judges.

But that day in court,when judgement was pronounced, only sahai was in bench. He
read his judgement and finished the business. Only later on(i think it was
only next day) we could know of a different judgement.

But by that time the damage was done. All newspapers, especially manorama
thundered that the catholicos faction have won the case and 34 constitution is
binding on all person,parish and  property in malankara church.(which is true as
per the minority judgement)

But what is the true fact of 95 SC majority judgement. I have a copy of the
judgement which i dont know how many times i have read.

From what i could understand;

1. The judges clearly wants an end to this dispute. They want both the factions
to unite.They havent given a verdict pro or anti any faction. They want a united
malankara church, which is definitly a part of the Syrian Orthodox Church, with
one Patriarch and one Catholicos.

2.The role of 34 constitution is noted in the judgement. Definitly 34
constitution is the constitution of 'Malankara Suriyani Christiani Assosiation',
which elects all bishops, catholicos, malankara metran, managing commitee,
working commitee, priest trustee, lay secretary, association
secretery(not church secretary, a term presently used by IOC secretary). 34
constitution is binding on the fuctions of the association and ineffect the
'Malankara Orthodox Suriyani Sabha'

There is no doubt on the above.

Pl note that the officebearers of Patriarch faction was asked to accept 34
constitution because of this.

3. Regarding the role of 34 constitution on the individual parish churches there
is no clear judgement.Rather the judges have clearly indicated that "no
judgement touching the rights of the individual parishes can be given without
hearing them".Isnt very clear!!

The problem is, when the present case started in 74, and when a special court
was created in ernakulam(palli kodathi-its still there), over 400 parishes gave
petition to be heard. But due to the fact that such a massive exercise could not
be done,it was decided that the rights of the parishes will not be decided on
this case. The supreme court acknoledged this fact and hence decided not to
disturb the parishes.

Also in the case of knanaya churches 95 judgement clearly says; "when a group of
people say that the Patriarch is their head, this court cannot say 'no your head
is the catholicos'.the freedon given in the constitution have to be granted."

4. The argument of an independent national and autocephalus church by IOC was
negatived. The judgement clearly tells that 'Malankara Orthodox Suriyani Sabha'
is a part of the Syrian Orthodox Church

5. As per the judgement the Patriarch is the head of the church and the
catholicos is second in heirarchy, and the Patriarch can take action against the
catholicos

6. The role of the Patriarch in Malankara,due to the establishment of the
catholicate, is cut short. The Patriarch can act through the catholicos.

In a nutshell this is the majority judgement of 95 SC.

This judgement had provisions for both the factions to be happy and sad. Rather
my feeling is that the judges somehow wanted these two factions to unite.

And unity would have happened, if IOC was sincere on it.

But what IOC wanted was to get things which were negatived by SC to be done in
other way. They wanted to establish points like independent, auto cephalus etc
which was not accepted by SC. They also wanted 34 constitution to be binding on
parishes, which was also not accepted by SC.

Hence the peace talks broke.

Its a fact that IOC even now quotes from the minority judgement. Lately there
was a write up in IOC forum by Rev P C Eapen on SC judgement. Either that rev
priest dont know of the real judgement or he is willfully playing into the hands
of satan, being a liar.

Even many "learned" members of our church got carried away by the minority
judgement.You only have to read the old postings in this forum to know how
people had tried to confuse this Church.

So as per 95 supreme court judgement elections were held in 'malankara orthodox
suriyani sabha' to decide who is the malankara metropolitain. That election was
conducted and a person was unanimously elected.

What does it got to do with us???

Nothing. As long as we dont claim for the Samudayam Properties. Because if we
make a claim to the samudayam properties we have to accept the malankara metran.
So who wants samudayam properties???(("kashu koduthu kadikana pattiye
medikumo"))

The parish churches which didnt want to be under this association decided to
form another association. Malankara metran tried to interfere in this
association, by trying to get a police protection. The high court didnt give
that "protection" and accepted the formation of our association.

This decision of High Court was in tune with 95 SC ruling.Because 95 SC ruling
doesnt bind the parish churches with 34 constitution.

rgds
Baby Gleeson Zachariah
St George Jacobite Syrian Church
Arakunnam

PATRIARCH INAUGURATES THE SILVER JUBILEE CELEBRATIONS OF SHARJAH ST.MARY’S
JACOBITE SYRIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH

On his way back to Damascus after completing the two weeks apostolic visit to
India, the Patriarch of Antioch & All the East H.H. Ignatius Zakka I Iwas
alighted at UAE on Friday, 1st October 2004, to inaugurate the silver jubilee
celebrations of Sharjah St. Mary’s Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church.

The Patriarch and the accompanying delegation arrived at the Church at 7 pm and
were accorded a warm welcome by the Church members.  Holy Qurbana was celebrated
by the visiting Metropolitans Pathros Mor Silvanos as chief celebrant and
Kuriakose Mor Dioscoros and the Diocesan Metropolitan Kuriakose Mor Theophilos
as co-celebrants.

While addressing the public meeting, His Holiness said that the Sharjah Church
is always in his heart as the first Church in the Gulf countries, which got its
own building. H.H. also said that this was the first congregation he sanctioned
after his enthronement as the Patriarch of Antioch and All the East.

“It is my pleasure to inaugurate this silver jubilee celebrations of this
Church,which coincided with the silver jubilee of my Patriarchal enthronement.
This Church, which is dedicated in the name of St. Mary, is a blessed Church.”
The Patriarch noted.

“You should always be loyal to your Malankara Church and to the country where
you stay and work.  Pray for this country and its benevolent leaders.” His
Holiness advised the church members.

The church vicar Rev. Fr. Roy Chacko anounced that the Church is planning for
various charity projects to commemorate the silver jubilee, including
constructing 25 houses for the poor from all the dioceses of Malankara Jacobite
Syrian Church.  He also said that its spiritual organisations like St. Mary's
Youth Association, Vanitha Samajam and Elder's Association are planning for
other charity projects too.

“In this jubilee year, our church is giving more emphasis on spreading Holy
Gospel and decided to conduct Bible conventions, retreats and other special
camps and conferences for the spiritual growth of all Christians in UAE”. The
vicar concluded.

The Metropolitans Mor Dioscoros Kuriakose and Mor Theophelos Kuriakose, who
accompanied the Patriarch to UAE, also delivered facilitation speeches.

Source: SOCM News Bureau & Mr.Davis Cherian Velamparampil
To view the pictures, please visit our Photo Gallery with MSN
http://groups.msn.com/SOCM-FORUM/silverjubileesharjahstmarys.msnw?albumlist=2

Reading: From the Gospel according to St. Luke 16: 9-18.

Dear and Respected Brethren,

The main theme of this week’s Gospel reading is our Lord’s exhortation to be
righteous in our private lives. Verse 9 “And I say unto you, make to yourselves
friends of the mammon of unrighteousness that, when you fail, they may receive
you not everlasting habitations” reminds us that it is easy to earn friendship
of many with money earned through illegal means and practices. But such a
friendship will not last long, as they will be temporary. Now also we could find
so many ‘newly wealthy’ people, having a number of friends and well-wishers in
our midst. Friends and others might be after such, praising them with
flatteries, with the intention of their own personal gains. Now a day we don’t
bother to evaluate how one became rich so soon, whereas the ordinary people who
depend such are forced to praise their false magnanimity and false greatness.
Our Lord makes it clear that mammon of unrighteousness is same as the riches of
the world.

In verse10 our Lord teach us that a trustworthy in a small affair would be
trustworthy in a very big affair also and likewise one who is not trustworthy in
a small thing would not be trustworthy in big affairs also. We read “He that is
faithful in that which is least in faithful also in much and he that is unjust
in the least is unjust also in much”. Let us think how one could be faithful as
envisaged by our Lord. In St. John 12:36 we read, “while you have light, believe
in the light, that you may be the children of light” So in Ephesians 5:8 St.
Paul exhorts, “For you were sometimes darkness, but now are you light in the
Lord: walk as children of light.” In I Thessalonians 5:5 we read “You are all
the children of light and the children of the day: we are not of the night nor
darkness”. It reminds us our Lord’s command “I am the light of the world” and
“you are the light of the world”. Our Lord wants us to live in Him and walk in
Him. If so we will be righteous.  In verse 11 our Lord asks, “If therefore you
have not been faithful in the unrighteousness mammon, who will not commit to
your trust the true riches” Lord is not establishing that all the worldly wealth
is always unjust. What is earned and accumulated in the unjust ways and means
only would remain unjust wealth. But in normal case all human beings will be
accepting or following the unjust means and ways to become rich. Now a day the
tendency to ‘become rich so soon’ is very strong for almost all people. Very few
are only doing in the exceptional styles. We are living in the midst of people
who are so greed to become rich by hook or crook. The people who have left our
mother country for employment facilities are often misinterpreted as the ones
who left the country for good fortunes. But all people who are left behind do
not consider the sufferings and pains
undertaken by many people who serve overseas. When we add a coin to our saving,
we all must think twice, whether the new coin added is just or not. Then only
our wealth or savings will be just. Our Lord made it very clear that we will not
inherit more wealth or fortunes in the world to come, unless and until we prove
that we are just in handling the wealth of the world. Many of us are ignoring
the seriousness of the issue most often. If we want to have a space of rest in
the eternal tents, we must follow justice and love in earning and handling
wealth of this world. Another point explained by our Lord is that the wealth of
this world is temporary. It may come and it may go. Today’s rich man might be
poor tomorrow and the vice versa. But the savings in the world to come are
forever. They are eternal. Once we would occupy them, it will be for us forever.
That is what we are learning from verse 12 (And if you have not been faithful in
that which is another man’s, who shall give you that which is your own).  See
verse 13. There we read “No servant can serve two masters: for either he will
hate the one, and love the other, or else he will hold to the one, and despise
the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.”   We all know the meaning of this
verse and theory of high significance. But most of us are willing to serve not
only two, but even more for our own selfish motives. We are not bothered to be
sincere and honest strictly to our master. This is a curse of the modern man.
Due to the present type of social customs etc we are forced to lead a fast life
eating fast foods and traveling in fast vehicles. When we enter an accelerator
we get annoyed if it’s speed is not that much as we expected. When we go to the
Church (we are regular church goers) if the worship is little delayed, we get
annoyed and we extend our anger to the priests. All these type of uncertainties
are taking place as we are serving more masters than one. In the computer age we
forget many relations and manners, as we all are busy. We don’t find time to
have systematic prayer.

In verses 14 and 15 we find the thought of the Jews especially the Pharisees and
our Lord’s reply to them. Our Lord must be telling us also that God knows our
hearts also. Here our Lord’s words “Which is esteemed among men is abomination
in the sight of God”, is a caution for us too. Now we are supposed to evaluate
our own lives and must make sure that we are not at all particular in earning
the esteemed in the sight of men. Many of us might be interested to have
popularity and fame among our community and society or anything similar to it.
But all such are abomination in the sight of Lord God. We should not forget this
fact. In verse 18 our Lord reminds us to check our own position in our marital
relations. Our Lord taught us that the look at other ladies with a desire for
them in the minds is equal to be the victim of adultery. We read in St. Matthew
5:28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has
committed adultery with her already in his heart”. (Kindly read St. Matthew
15:19, 19:9, St. Mark 7:21, and 10:11)

May God bless us to live as good children of God obeying Him and His teachings.

Jose Kurian Puliyeril.

--- In IndianOrthodox@yahoogroups.com, Thomas P wrote:
>
> Dr. Babu Paul's article that appeared in the Malayala Manorama online
> special edition in connection with the visit of HH the Patriarch of Antioch
> will mislead some people.
>
>
> I like reading the Malayalam articles of Dr. Babu Paul. But in
> matters of faith, I believe that he is pro-Roman Catholic in faith.
> It is largely due to people like him that the Patriarch also shifted
> to RC church views of universal supremacy etc. He also wrote
> extensively about such topics in church publications, books etc. I
> wish if people like Dr. Babu Paul stood for the Oriental Orthodox
> faith. Oriental Orthodox (OO) official dialogue with Roman Catholic
> church started only in 2004, that is several years after we had our
> dialogues with Eastern Orthodox. Next OO meeting with Vatican is in
> January, 2004. Our Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church is represented on
> behalf of Oriental Orthodox communion in this joint official meeting.
>
> While I respect the person of Dr. Babu Paul, I disgree with his views
> about the Church. I think we need to keep a view same as the Orthodox
> Churches. I believe that it is due to the distorted views of
> prominent people at higher levels that the Patriarch's position was
> shifted to an RC like position. What the Patriarch is trying to
> implement is an RC model with Damascus as the center. In his Delhi
> speech, the Patriarch mentioned about RC church model and how it is a
> valid model. I am really surprised how can an Oriental Orthodox
> primate talk like that! Is he really in the Orthodox faith?
>
> Regards,
> -Thomas P

The dialogue between SOC and RCC began in 1970s. In 77 H.H Yakoub III and H.H
Paul VI declared that the faith was one though expressed differently. In 1984
their successors took this further and agreed on economic communion.

Although called ORTHODOX the Byzantine varieties differ from RCC only in matters
of administrative principles: when we parted ways in Chalcedon, Constantinople
and Rome were together. The IOC leadership decried the 1977 declaration then but
followed suit later, like Parasuram Express following Venad Express!

As for the Delhi speech / statement all that Moran said was that manmade
national boundaries cannot limit the church, which is universal; of course he
cited RCC as an example. HH does not claim to be like Pope except that the two
thrones were established by Peter, realizing all the time that these
throne-related concepts are relatively new.

I must also add that the Jacobites (SOC) do not think of union with Rome, at
east as of now the group which considered that was the one from which Mar
Ivanios walked over.

Our Brothers in the opposite Orthodox church seems to be so frustrated at the
reception received for our Patriarch at all the places in Kerala.  All the
postings in the their forums points to this. Even though there was not even a
rally in Cochin, a huge crowd came to witness the event; some reports say it was
between 1.5 and 2 lakhs. The most extraordinary thing there was that not even a
single person who were seated (50000) left the place for the entire 3 hours
meeting which was so unusual according to the media reporters present there. 
They say that they have never seen such a meeting.

I am not here to say that we people are the largest Christian group in the
state, but certainly we have a sizeable number of faithful, say about 10 lakhs.
It is to suppress the feelings of this large group the opposite 7-8 lakh strong
south kerala based orthodox group is trying. How far will it be successful? All
these years the other orthodox group managed to get majority in the association
elections through the starting of small parishes through which they could send
maximum number of representatives. This tactics continued even after the 1995 SC
judgment which gave proportional representation;  but there still remained
restrictions for a parish to send proportional number of people wherever the
families exceeded 2000.  While in the Jacobite Church there are many churches
with more than 2000 families, in the other side there is not a single church
like that. The other side also neatly exploited the SC verdict by forming new
small small parishes in the period as before; now there are many parishes in
their side with just 10 families, all these could send one lay & priest
representatives each making it par with the much larger parishes of the
jacobites. However the money power & Alexander like peoples’ Delhi influence,
helped the other side to get it legalized. Thus this 70 year old “1934
constitution church” got recognition in the eye of law.  But when we too got the
same recognition in 2002, through the same law, they could not digest. What a
contradiction.

Now the new allegation of the other faction is that at Delhi there was only a
few to receive H.H. Patriarch and so the Patriarchs’ visit was a failure there.
And they got it published this message in some other forums. I think how funny
and cheap these people are. The fellow who raised this issue is talking as if we
the Malayale Jacobite/Orthodox Christians in Delhi have a strength of more than
lakh there. A very Funny group of people this south kerala based Orthodox
faction consists of !!!

When our brother of the other side raised this allegation did he ever checked
the number of people who attended the inaugural ceremony of the 50th year of
ordination of Mathews II catholicose as bishop which was held at Kottaym town
last year.  Here there was not more than 1500 people to greet their church head
!!!! This reception for their Catholicos was at Kottayam, the headquarters of
their church !!!! That is their love for their head of the church and still try
to fault with others.

T M Chacko
St. Mary's Church
Manarcadu
Kottayam

Dear all  memebers. [ This is a little bit of long post- forgive me. Hope people
will read it]

This is humble request to all IOC memebers to allow me to choose a faith I
beleive in and my parents followed for last 2000 years.

I saw a posting my  Mr. Jose Kurain ( Open letter to HH). and he and other IOC
memebers seems people like me are believing "Syrian orthodox" because we are
ignorant and HH has the position titile "Patriarch".

No Sir. Even if the title of HH is just an "achan" ( Priest ) I still be
following them, because that is the true faith.

Because there is ONE church established by  LORD Jesus Christ and I dont want to
become bishop or Patriarch or anything , Just follow , Lord and obey what  GOD
said.

I beleive in two things

I) LORD established one church and appointed St. Peter as its head and all other
apostles were Episcopas in that church.  Apart from IOC claiming "See of
St.Thomas" from 1970's I cannot see any other See for other 11 apostles ( like
See of  St.Juda, See of St.James, or even See of St.Paul or St.John ) But  logic
is not faith and here is my proofs.

1) Lord Said so.
http://www.netacc.net/~mafg/peter02.htm
2) http://www.stignatious.com/articles/peter.htm
3) Meaning of Keys - http://members.aol.com/johnprh/isaiahfirst.html
4) Kaniyamparambil achan has explained it.
5) So many church fathers have written it as the faith of the church ( Refer
Early church fathers )
5) The council of Nicea is refering to only See of St.Peter and devides the
world into 4 for each juridiction.
6) Church believed it that way for 2000 years.
7) Read Parumala thirumenis' opinion. He says Hell of fire waits for those who
reject See of Antioch.

http://sor.cua.edu/Personage/MGregoriusGChathuruthil/18761216shalmootho.html
or in malayalam
http://www.parumalathirumeni.com/ look for salmusa.

so To follow you Ihave to disobey
1) Lord Jesus Chrhist
2) Appostles
3) Early church fathers
4) my Chruch ( 1 Tim 3:14)
5) Great council of Nicea
6) Your own leaders ( also read Perumballi thirumeni - by Rev Fr Moolayil achan.
(Mar Adai study center - Changanasseri)
7) My own parents ( read 10 commandments )
8) Supreme court who said "Patriarch is the supreme head of the church.

II )  I do  believe that See of St.Thomas is a herecy and an insult to the
apostles who suffered a lot for the church.

Beccause

1) Apostle did not establish a independant church here
    a) it is not in the history
    b) even if I accept that  "Syrains invaded " the church of India
       then at least ONE ( yes,  atlest one )  church should stay who
belived in See of St. Thomas.  When you consider that Syrian fathers
who came here came through hostile grounds , how come NOT EVEN ONE
chruch remained in the faith which  IOC preaches ? Remeber even
Thozhiyoor church could survive. The "Kanaya church " survived.  Even
Nestorian church survived.  Why not even a single IOC one ? Because
there was NONE.

2) The  Syrian church was able to produce so many scholars and
    saints, so many literary works and prayers. Why so called
    IOC  church did not produce even a single one? say a litergy
    in malayalam.  Why not a Holy Bible in Malayalam. ( Acutualy the
    Europeans translated on into Malayalam. ) Why not even ONE copy in
last  1400years ?

3)  What was the litergy like in pre-17th century? Why cant we find
     a single tomb of our church fathers in last  13 centuries (
before "syrain invation ") ?

4)  The Syrian church grew through extremely hostile environment.
First persecution by Jews. Then by gentiles and then by Muslims.
Still t hey could perserve their litergy, vestament, history and
everything.

Why not us ? we were not in a persecuted place at all.

5) When Vattaserri thirumeni wanted a  Cathoicate  here , why he has
to tell a lie to get it? Why fake it , if you ever believe there was
one here. eg. Thomas P. Always quotes the incident of Yacob Bourdana
( he went to copts when he See of Antioch was in difficult times ).
But he did not go there cheating or lieing to the Copts. Copts
anointed him not as coptic  catholicos . But as bishop for SOC.
Compare this to what vattaserril thirumeni did.

  Vattaseril thirumeni could have gone to Copts Or SOC and say "we
have a  See here establshed by St. Thomas. please anoint me for its
resurrection. " He did not say that. why? He knew no one will listen
to him and he will not get it.


  When IOC created  a constitution, why put name of Antiochian
patriarch at all ? if he has no role here ? Because those who
made  a constitution couldn't do it, because people would have
rejected it out right.


So I am not  saying , any thing against you, But I beleive your view
is heretic.

So if you wish you can be IOC, but please allow me to follow what
LORD said. Leave me alone

paul philipose
St. Ignatious  SOC , Dallas

Dear Moolayilachen,

Thanks for exposing IOC.

The visit of Holy Father have sent all those SOC haters hyperactive.

But all these grumblings are just out of frustration.Frustration of being left
out of the mainstream christianity in kerala. Frustration because of getting
shunned by the media. Frustration of getting avoided by the other social
communities in kerala.

To top it all, frustration because of the immensly sucessfull Holy Apostolic
visit of HH the Patriarch.

I had the oppertunity to attend all the public fuctions of HH the Patriarch.( I
started from trivandrum with vilambarajaatha). There are no words to explain the
huge sucess of these fuctions.

Just imagine the frustration of kottayam catholica and his underlings, when a
crowd not matched by any political or social gathering in the past assembles in
marine drive to greet their Holy Father.(all dailies put the figure as over
200000)

Imagine the frustration of kottayam catholica and his underlings, when faithfull
numbering over 100000(reported by manorama) gather at kothamangalam
to attend the concecration of Holy Mooron by their Spiritual Father.

(Not the concecration of sunflower oil that kottayam catholica does. people with
doubt can ask the opinion of marthoma syrian church)

Just imagine the frustration of kottayam catholica and his underlings,when they
see tens of thousands of faithfull welcome their Holy Father to the very same
parish churches which had waited with kuruvadi to welcome kottayam catholica
some time back.

Just imagine the frustration of kottayam catholica and his underlings when all
the social and political leaders( BJP/RSS included-the so called authers of
national church) que up before HH the Patriarch to offer their regards to Him.

So, what to do other than spit venom??

And it would be good for IOC, to check whether their catholica is in the right
state of mind. Because nobody in their right sence will claim to stop HH from
His visit by using 'albalam'.

Anybody in kerala knows the 'albalam' of IOC.And everybody knows who are the
people who will run just by showing the word 'adi' in a piece of paper.

There was a press statement right before the Apostolic visit in 2000.It was from
mannarapra cori.He claimed that the Patriarch will come out of nedumbaserry
airport only by stepping over his dead body.

Any way mannarapra cori's dead body didnt come to the airport that day. Probably
the dead body thought it better not to get converted to 'ellupodi'.
(mannarapra cori is nothing but a dead body from 74, after selling Valiya
Thirumeni's tomb for thirty pieces of silver-remember judas).

This time also some IOC bishop had claimed that the Holy Mooron Koodasa at
Kothamangalam will be obstructed. How can people be so senceless. Either
they dont know the reality or on knowing the reality they have gone out of their
sences.

Will anybody in their right sence imagine obstructing the Mooron Koodasa at
Kothamangalam, a place which by all means is in the Jacobite heartland(or let it
be even puthenkurishu, kolenchery, mulamthuruthy, karingachira, piravom,
perumbavoor etc etc etc)

Only people without any sence of the geography of east and north of ernakulam
dist will utter these kind of nonsence.

So, as the chief minister omman chandy have said in the inaugral function,"all
these rumblings will have a natural end". Who else but the "SON OF ORTHODOX
CHURCH" can make such a comment??

rgds
Baby Gleeson Zachariah
St George Jacobite Syrian Church
Arakunnam

Dear Thomas Daniel Reji

With profound grief we heard the demise of your brother and please accept our
heart felt condolences.

Prof. Paul Daniel was my Physics professor in Kayamkulam M.S.M. collage. More
than that we both work together almost 3 years in MGOCSM. Because of him only we
were able to form a unit of MGOCSM in M.S.M (A Muslim management collage).

Many of Jacobite students cooperated with him for the organization regardless
the Bava V Metran Kazhi. I still remember his Friday messages. We all enjoyed it
very much.

Many times he visited my house along with MGOCSM members and my mother still
remember him. She asked to convey her heartfelt condolences to you and his
family.

May God Almighty grant rest and consolation to the bereaved

Karthaave nin raktha sharirangal kaikodu
Bhaktharathayi marichorkkarulaname nallorma
Ninte mahatwam-udikkum naal nilkkanam-mivar vala bhaagathil

In Christ
Aji Thomas David
Kadissa Church
Kayamkulam

"The one who knows God will follow the Lord's footsteps, bearing the cross of
the Saviour. It is said, "The world is crucified to him and he to the world."
The Lord says, "He who loses his life will save it." We can "lose our lives" ion
one of two ways. First, we can risk our lives just as the Lord did for us.
Secondly, we can separate our lives from the customary things of this world.
Bearing the cross means to separate our souls from the delights and pleasures of
this life. If you do this, you will find your life again - resting in the
hope of what is to come. Dying to ourselves means being content with the
necessities of life. When we want more that these necessities it is easy to
sin."

St. Clement of Alexandria.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer; My God, my strength, in
whom I will trust; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold." Psalm
18:2

". . . I will put my laws in their minds so they will understand them, and I
will write them on their hearts so they will obey them . . . "
Hebrews 8:10 NLT

How remarkable that the God of the universe would actually want to communicate
with us! We are creatures of a material, physical world to which we relate
through our five senses. God is a spiritual being. So how can he communicate
with us? Through the Bible.

Over several centuries, God inspired a select number of people to write down
what he felt we needed to know about him and how he expects us to live.

In His Love
Thomas Daniel (Reji)
St. George Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church
Cheppaud, Kerala, India
http://groups.msn.com/StGeorgeSyrianOrthodoxChurchCheppaud

PATRIARCH MORAN MOR IGNATIUS PATHROS IV (d. 8th October 1894)

Below is enclosed the link to a brief biography of Mor Ignatius Pathros IV
(known as Pathros III in the old Malankara records), the Patriarch of Antioch
and all the East who came to Malankara and saved the church here from heresies. 
H.H. convened the Mulanthuruthy Synod in 1876 and consecrated the Holy Myron in
Malabar for the first time in its history. H.H also ordained 6 metropolitans
including Chathuruthil St. Gregorios Geevarghese, his private secretary. The
Patriarch passed away on Monday morning, 8th October 1894 and was entombed at
Kurkkuma Dayro, the Monastery of Mor Hananyo.

The date of demise of the Holy Father is mistakenly mentioned in some church
records of Malankara as 25 or 26th September which may have happened because of
mixing up with the Malayalam Calendar date of '25th' Kanni’ (corresponding apprx
month of Kanni is Sep15-Oct14).

So the correct date of demise is October 8th or Kanni 25th.

Link to the biography of Mor Peter IV:
http://syriacchristianity.org/bio/MorPathrosIV.htm
http://ApostolicVisit.cjb.net
http://syriacchristianity.com/visit2004/SOCC.htm

with regards,
John Philip
St. Joseph's Cathedral, Kottayam

DEAR MEMBERS,
There is a doubt in my mind if anybody can clear it I am thankful to you

At the time of Split  in the Syrian church in 70's H.H Partiach Bava suspended
the  so called I O C catholicose and all followers of  their ideology from Our
syriyan  church. Is their preasthood (I mean kaivape) is existing? Is they can
conduct Holy scarements (koodasha)  is it valid?  If not how can we give our
daughters to their sons .The marriage conducting in the I O C  Church by the I
OC preast is valid? Can we accept their daughters who got baptized by IOC
preasts? As you know how we are accepting girls from Marthoma  church do we need
a same  procedure? I hope somebody will clear my doubts

Best regards
Cecil.K.Varghese
St.Marys church, Sharjah
St.Ignatious, Kaipattor, Thumpamon Dioc

Dear friends,

It is with great pleasure that I present to you the video clips from the 2004
MGOCSM American Diocesan Leadership Camp. For the  first time in years, a major
diocesan event took place in Florida from July 29th to August 1st 2004. The
Tampa Leadership Camp, or "TLC" as it has been referred to, was a fulfilling and
enlightening experience for everyone. We, the planning committee would like to
share the experience of 100 youth from around the nation with everyone. Beven
Jacob, our camp convener has painstakingly taken the effort to put in digital
format many of the videos taken at the camp. God willing, we will be able to
post the audio clips from lectures as well (the notes are all available).

Please visit the camp homepage at
http://www.stgregoriostampa.com/leadership/index.htm

The video files may be downloaded by right clicking on the file name, and
choosing the "Save as" option. We are especially proud to present the English
Qurbana in downloadable format. We will be updating the sight with more files in
the future. Please contact Beven Jacob at bevenjacob@... if you are
interested in videos or other materials not available on our site.

MGOCSM Diocesan Leadership Camp 2004 Planning Committee
Beven Jacob
Camp Convener

Steve Kurian
Programming Coordinator

=============================================================================
From the desk of the moderator

The events and functions described in this message is not any way related to The
Universal Syriarc Orthodox Church or its churches in Malankara.

As it is a spiritual function and the motivation is for the betterment of the
future Christian generations, we are publishing this in Christian and ecumenical
love.

We thank Mr. Steve Kurian for sharing this news

Dear Paul and other parents in this forum;

Thank you for you kind support and motivation.  It is the support of people like
you who stand strong in the true faith necessary to lay a foundation for the
youth to stand on.  We sincerely thank you for that. We also thank all the
people who are steadfast on the rock solid faith of our Holy Church and have
shared that knowledge in this forum.  Please don't ever be discouraged; none of
this writings went to waste.  It is because of all those writings and the
teachings passed on from our parents that today a number of kids from various
churches in NY came together to support and promote this faith and to stand up
against the persecution that our Church has been facing for ages.  We have a
suggestion to all the elders of the Church.  We hope next Sunday, all the
parents in this forum, when you take your kids to Church, would tell them what
is the true Syrian Orthodox tradition and the rich faith that we have been
following for centuries.  We hope the parents would tell the kids the difference
between the true faith our Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church is following and the
contradictory ideologies followed by the Indian Orthodox and other groups. You
could tell them that our church is just echoing what our lord said in Mathew
16:17-19.  We believe in this apostolic succession and we are proud to be
followers of this belief for centuries.  You could teach them why our church is
called a Syrian Orthodox Church and why we have so much joy to be part of this
blessed Church.  They will be curious to know more and you could teach them more
on this subject.  Every week this travel time to church can be utilized for
this, there by educating the younger generation about the values of being
members of this Holy Church.  This could be a great learning experience to you
and your kids.

We hear a lot of parents saying that this new generation doesn't have any time
for these stupid "Kakshi vazhaku" and "Church Politics".  But this is not just a
mere "Kakshi vazhaku"; this is the very basic foundation of our faith, and it is
your responsibility to educate the youth that Jesus Christ built his Church on
St. Peter; and you have to make the youth aware that it is their basic
responsibility to assure that no matter what the heretics do, the Church built
on the strong rock of faith would never be shaken. By educating the youth, you
could make sure that they wont fall prey to these blasphemous teaching promoted
by various Christian groups.

Tomorrow if a kid goes to a church in a different denomination because s/he
likes that Achen or because their friends go there, they should have the
knowledge to distinguish "right teachings" versus "wrong teachings".  A child
growing up especially outside of kerala is being bombarded with "protestant
teachings" not just from a Christian denomination, but also from various
religious sects.  We personally know a lot of kids who would prefer going for
prayer and worship meetings rather than attending the Holy Qurbano at the
Church.  This is because of the influence of the highly intense teachings
injected on them by prolific preachers of other Christian denomination.  There
is no better spiritual nourishment than the Word of the Lord.  The more you
learn the Holy Bible, the more you read and understand the Word of the Lord, the
more you are equipped to fight the temptations of the devil.  But, it is your
responsibility to make sure that the Word of the Lord is interpreted
in the right away.  The holy fathers of our Church have always stood strong for
this, and now it is your turn to pass it on to your kids.  At the present
condition, some one like Nestor could easily come down to our youth and teach
Bible in the way he wants and convince a good majority of our Youth about his
ideologies. Some one from the Methran Kakshi could easily convince your kids and
take them to their churches and make them participate in the mass held there.
Parents should make their kids understand that even though there is nothing
wrong in going to other churches, there are some rights and wrongs in
participating in masses held at churches which departed from our faith.  Parents
should tell them what the rights and wrongs are according to the teachings of
our Church.  Parents should be able to provide them with the armor of knowledge
so they could defend themselves from these false teachings. They should exactly
know why our Holy Church is doing something that some other churches are not
doing and on the other hand not doing something that others are.

Knowledge of the true faith and the teachings of our church fathers have to be
imparted to our kids.  Dear parents, this has to be done by you because no one
else is going to do it for you.  There is only a so much that a church could do.
The immigrant populations of malayalees have done so much for their children. 
Even the core factor for their migration to a foreign place was "
for their kids".  A lot of fathers and mothers work two shifts and sacrificing
even the quality time that they are supposed to spend with their family.  Some
of them even sacrifice their spiritual food by not coming to church on Sundays
(WORK WORK WORK !!!) just to make sure that their kids could have a "good life"
---"Pillarku vendi" .  If you don't share with your kids the joy of true
orthodoxy, just pause and think for a second the negative outcome of this entire
struggle for making their lives better.  How good is money if you cannot assure
the existence of a Malankara Syrian Orthodox diocese in America after two more
generations.  We feel the high importance and high necessity in educating the
Youth on our Church history.  They should be knowledgeable of the truth.  This
knowledge is the "BIRTH RIGHT-Janmaavakasham", of every kid.  They have the
right to get it from their parents.  Please don't deny them.

KNOWLEDGE IS POWER
In HIS love and prayers,
SONS of KEFA
NY Chapter

For peole who did not hear this story.

Latha Nair was a wicked woman.  She befriended a poor family. She cajoled and
cheated a teen aged girl and sold her all around for sex.She collected money and
became rich while this poor girl , cheated and  threated for the service and was
almost killed when delevered a baby. The law and order cauth up with this and
enquiry is going on

She befiended another family ( a astrologer and hindu priest ). She had come to
him to  know the future. She gave promises that she will make astrolegers
daughers big into  TV and he believed her . The parents sent their precious
young daugher with Latha here and there for daughters sucess.! Once every one
know about this story the whole family of the astrologer and his 3 children
commited suicide.  Elder girl who  Latha took out was not chated yetand she
was good in studies and art.  A smart girl.

This story really moved me. I want to comment a couple of things about this
whole tragedy.

1) regarding first girl. This was a child parents negleted. Father was
irresponsible.  In our circiles also there are parents who are irresponsible.
They think , partying or clubs or are the family life and neglect thier own
children in bringing up Christian way. Bringing up smart , Godly children is not
easy and parenting is a big part in it.

2) The poor astroger who predicted other's future did not know what is his
future. He could not even see that Latha was a cheat So much for people who go
to astrologers for solutions.

3) Astroger also did not think too much when he was offered glamor and ( future
money ). So many people are lured by these kind of promises and children are the
loosers.

So dont be greedy. Protect your children. Pray to LORD for wellbeing not
astroleger or money.

Regards
Paul Philipose
St. Ignatiuus  SOC  Dallas

Matrimonial Digest / 0029-04

Dear members

We Moderators do not take or assume any responsibility for the particulars given
by the advertiser. Concerned parties are encouraged to verify the particulars.

As per the request of some advertisers we withheld the contact details and will
forward any reply to the advertiser for further personal contact.

Please read the successful stories of the matrimonial advertisement in the SOCM
forum at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOCM-FORUM/message/4384

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Matrimonial; Code # 015/04
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Suitable alliance invited from Jacobite parents for a Jacobite girl 23 years
/157 cm, God-fearing (Education :M.Sc in Electronics).

Please respond to pvvarughese@... or moderator_socm@... with code
# MP-015/04

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Matrimonial; Code # 014/04
++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Retired PWD Contractor's family (Jacobite, Middle Class, Ernakulam
District)invites suitable proposal from middle class Jacobite parents of God
fearing girls under 28, 5'1', 48 Kg, employed or qualified to be employed
(prefer teachers or lecturers) in or around Ernakulam Dist.   She has to look
after home affairs as the brother and sister of the boy to be working overseas.

Their son (32, 5'3"  55 Kg) is a Vet. surgeon in Kerala Government Service,
posted within few kilometers from home, fair, clean habits, soft spoken, thin
built and God fearing.

His  has an elder brother and younger sister, both married.

Genuine enquiries may be posted to varkod@... or
moderator_socm@... with code # MP-014/04

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Matrimonial; Code # 013/04
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
(Jacobite parents from Ernakulam Dt.invites proposals to her daughter, who is
presently working at Bangalore. Educated and employed Jacobite youths working at
Bangalore are preferred. The proposals to be made from middle class family. The
boy should be God fearing. The girl is 25 yrs of old, 5.3". She had Completed
B.Sc.maths and have GNIIT, (3 yr computer diploma)course Certificate)Please
respond to eldhoshimmy@...> or moderator_socm@... with code #
MP-013/04

+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Matrimonial; code # 012/04
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Proposals invited from parents of god fearing BSc nurses for a handsome Jacobite
boy, hailing from Kolencherry, 29/168 Graduate, only son, working as Marketing
Executive for a reputed Co. in  Kuwait, active in church matters and having
family visa status. He has two sisters and both of them are well settled. The
girl will have good job prospects in Kuwait.

Interested please respond to:yeljoseph@... or moderator_socm@...
with code # MP-012/04

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Matrimonial; Code # 011/04
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Suitable alliance invited from Jacobite parents for a Jacobite girl (24
years/161 cm),fair,smart and God-fearing,B-tech with MBA,working in a leading
firm in Techno-Park,Trivandrum.

Please respond to thomasvt@... or moderator_socm@... with code #
MP-011/04

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Matrimonial; Code # 010/04
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Proposals invited from the parents of suitable boys with good family background,
for a Good looking & God fearing Staff Nurse (27 yrs,153 cm, hailing from an
ancient Jacobite family of Kottayam) working in UK. Coming on leave in
September. Respond with full details.

Please respond to or bkmbkurian@... OR moderator_socm@... with
code # MP-010/04

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Matrimonial; Code # 009/04
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jacobite Parents from Perumany, 7 km from Perumbavoor (Angamali Diocese)invites
proposals for their son working in Dammam, Saudi Arabia as Project Co-ordinator.
Proposals to be from Middle Class family. The girl should be God fearing and
fair.

Please respond to aliyasissac@... or moderator_socm@... with
code # MP-009/04

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Matrimonial; Code # 008/04
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jacobite parents from Ernakulam Dt.invites proposals to their daughter. She is
23 years old, 5' 3". The girl is very fair, brilliant and good looking. She is a
member of the church choir and a Sunday School teacher. She had completed her
MA(economics) with first class and now doing her B.Ed course in a very reputed
college in Ernakulam Dt.

Proposals to be made from graduate youths working here or Abroad (having family
visa). The boy should be handsome and God fearing.

Please respond to moderator_socm@... with code # MP-008/04

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Matrimonial; Code # 007/04
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Uncle working in abroad seeks proposal for niece. She belongs to Jacobite family
from Angamali. 23 yrs old, very fair, good looking, and working in  Riyadh,
Saudi Arabia as Nurse in King Khalid University Hospital. She is smart, caring
and very God fearing.

We invite proposals from interested parents of God fearing Jacobite Christian
boys, well qualified and having stable job. If interested, please contact with
full details.

Please respond to moderator_socm@... with code # MP-007/04

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Matrimonial; Code # 006/04
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jacobite Parents from Kottayam Diocese invites proposals for their second son
PDC/30/168 working in MRF kottayam. Father doing business in Kottayam. Mother
Gazzetted officer in govt.One elder brother married(Working) and younger sister
studying.Graduates in any discipline or diploma holders in Nursing
(GNM)prefered.

Please respond to moderator_socm@... with code # MP-006/04

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Matrimonial; Code # 004/04
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jacobite parents from Ernakulam Dt.invites proposals to their son. The boy is 30
yrs.old 5' 8". He is very handsome, brilliant(MA Rank Holder), God fearing Altar
Boy), presently working with a leading news daily at Ernakulam Dt. Proposals to
be from Middle Class family. The girl should be God fearing and
fair. Nurses working abroad are prefered.

Please respond to moderator_socm@... with code # MP-004/04

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Matrimonial; Code # 003/04
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jacobite parents from Kottayam invite proposals for their daughter, divorcee
with one girl child,)39 yrs.5'3", Home Science Graduate, mediumcomplexion, very
Home loving and God fearing, from JACOBITE Widowers/ Divorcees of 40 to 45 age
group, well settled in life in India or abroad, with clean habits, positive
attitude towards life and home loving.

Please respond to moderator_socm@... with code # MP-003/04

"Your tongue longs to jump into arguments, but restrain it. It is a tyrant, and
you must fight it daily seventy times seven."
St. John Climacus.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."
Luke 5:32

Dear achan

Thank you for the articles. If any one did not read it, it is a great  loss for
them.

this para alone is worth reading 1000 times.
Fr. Eapen ( of IOC) worte :
" The Simhasana Churches, Knanaya Churches, Evangelical Association of the East
and St.Antony's Church Mangalore may for administrative convenience be declared
as part and parcel of the Malankara Church since they come under the territorial
jurisdiction of the Malankara church owing allegiance to the Catholicate and
adopting the 1934 Constitution of the Malankara church."

When Rev.Dr.Eapen says this as his conclusion the cat is out of his bag. I think
he had a nice dream when he wrote this and he scribbled these notes as the end
of his dream!. But he has to wake from his sleep!. ALL THE THREE COURTS WHERE
THE MALANKARA CASE WAS HEARD DECLARED AGAINST THE DREAM OF FR. EAPEN. All claims
over the Knanaya, Honavar mission, EAE and Simhasana churches are nothing but
feverish utterances. I can't understand the usage of ' Territorial jurisdiction'
of the Catholicose!. HERE WE CAN SEE THE REAL PROBLEM IN MALANKARA. ALL THISE
STRIFE ARE FOR 'TERRITORIAL DOMINION OVER THE CHURCH AND PARISHES'.  THE LOVE
AND CARE OF THE SPIRITUAL FATHER IS LOST IN THE CHURCH.  We see a spiritual
father in His Holiness our Patriarch. But Achan you see a dominating authority
in the Catholicose. The Church is a spiritual institution where spiritual warmth
and care has to be felt. I am sorry to say that this is being lost in our church
when we are fighting legal battles, street fights and losing control and modesty
before the media. We have to remember this also when we are striving to get
POLICE PROTECTION to enter into Parishes and heaping up cases in all courts in
India and abroad."

But tragedy is people cannot see Truth. Thier mind is fixed.  Jesus Christ  did
so many miracles in His ministry on earth. So many were fed, cured.  But they
rewarded HIM with crucifixtion.

Thank you achan again, I pray for you.

Since you are writing on this with authority, IOC is plotting against you.  I am
sure it will come to you in some form soon.  This list is big.  If you look at
history of our leaders from  80 onwords they have been targeting each of our
leaders one by one. Mostly by finanicial offers, positions etc. I will not name
any one. But you can look around and find them.

First  Judas showed that Money is better than Church. Catholics proved it in
general. During the Coona croose we saw the use here. IOC know it.  In Mal there
is an adage which in English is like this "Not even eagle will fly over money".

If they cannot get you by Money, ask HB.  In this century, there is no one who
had it more than HB. 350+ cases , rumors, admonish, all because he stood for
what he believed and did not fall for the trap.

Let those who have heart, beleive this.

Paul Philipose
St. Ignatious  Syrian Orthodox Chruch
Dallas

Hello everyone,

Below is a rough draft of a short article I've written regarding Syriac accents.
It is also repubished at: http://www.ruhosuryoyo.org/marmor.html
-------------------------------------
Mar vs. Mor: The Syriac Accents in Transliteration

Some in our community have asked me about the difference between Mar and Mor,
Qurbana and Qurbono, et al.  Many non-Syriac speakers often find themselves
frustrated and/or confused when observing transliterated Syriac.  The most
common questions arise when dealing with accents.  There are two major accents
as far as Classical Syriac is concerned: Western and Eastern.  The Western
accent is sometimes incorrectly referred to as Jacobite and historically spoken
by Syriac Orthodox, Syriac Catholics, Maronite Catholics, and also the Melkite
Orthodox and Melkite Catholics (though they have removed Syriac from
their church). On the other hand, the Eastern accent is sometimes incorrectly
referred to as Nestorian, and employed by the Syriac Nestorian Church (Church of
the East), and Chaldean Catholic Church.

It is an incorrect assumption to label an accent with a certain theological
perspective.  Both the Eastern and Western accents are used by native Syriac
speakers (who likewise also speak in their own local dialects:  Turoyo, Surith,
etc.) who are part of the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch.  East of the
Euphrates, the accent tended to be Eastern.  As such, the Syriac Orthodox
Easterners—those who were under the great Catholicate/Maphrianate of the
East—then spoke, and today speak, with such an accent.  According to Rabban
Stephanos Issa, there are between 5,000-10,000 people remaining in the Syriac
Orthodox Church whose native accent is the Eastern.

Is there a difference between mar and mor?  There is no difference. In Syriac,
they are spelled exactly the same and have the exact same meaning:  "my lord" or
"my master."  Likewise, qurbana and qurbono are spelled exactly the same in
Syriac and have the exact same meaning: "offering."  As can be seen, the words
are the same; they are only transliterated differently because of the difference
in accents.

The Eastern accent tends to use the "a" sound more, while the Western accent
tends to vocalize the "o" sound.  Some have argued that the "o" sound is a
remnant from the Akkadian language—the language of the Assyrian Empire before it
adopted Aramaic—whose nominative endings closed in the "u" sound.  An equally
probable explanation is that it was influenced by Greek, whose nominative ending
closes with "os."

While it may seem difficult, the difference is negligible as far as the actual
speaking is concerned.  The reality of spoken Syriac is fully understandable
between those who speak with different accents.  To exemplify this, one can
consider the Indian and British pronunciation of the word, "schedule," which
sounds like "shed-you-ul."  Contrarily, in American English, the word is
pronounced "sked-you-ul."  This is exactly the same word with the same spelling,
yet pronounced differently with different accents.

Syriac in India:

For native Malayalam speakers, Syriac can be difficult to pronounce. Malayalam
uses several sounds which are quite unnatural for the Syriac speaker, and
likewise Syriac uses several sounds which are unnatural for Malayalam speakers. 
As a result, many Syriac words take on a different pronunciation.  Though taking
a phonological examination of Malayalamized Syriac, we can infer various
accented roots:

The word "Almighty" in Syriac is: (Haylthono)

In Western Syriac this is pronounced "Haylthono," while in the Eastern accent,
it is pronounced "Khayltana."  When I hear Malayalees speak Syriac or
transliterate it, I hear them say haylsono.  While some would argue that the
usage of the "o" displays a Western accent connection, I would argue that the
usage of "s" in place of "th" [the Syriac letter Tau] is the real tell tale mark
of connection to the Western Syriac accent.

While transliterating alphabets like Syriac can be difficult, once the
differences are addressed, they should pose no further confusion.

MikeWingert
St. Mary's Simhasana JSOC
Santa Fe Springs, CA

Following is my opinion, after knowing the variations in Diptychs in different
churches. Recently Dr. Babu Paul and Fr. Kuriakose Moolyail wrote about this.
Though it is a great act to have St. Thomas specially remembered (though all
Apostles are remembered in the diptych), I do see a hidden motivation behind
adding the name of the Apostle and explicitly calling him a 'preacher'.

I prefer to have Sts. Peter and Paul remembered and then all Apostles together
remembered (i.e. the old form).

Recently there are several messages praising the great act of Patriarch in
including the name of St. Thomas in Diptych. But if we carefully study the line
that was added in the Jacobite faction, we can understand the hidden motives.
The line was drafted by Dr. Babu Paul and sent to Damascus. In the Jacobite
version, they deliberately added the line which is says "St. Thomas who preached
Gospel in India".  i.e. St. Thomas is just a preacher with no authority of
ordination.  There is a hidden motive. It was like exploting innocent people,
i.e. throwing to them something attractive, and having something hidden against
them.  I am against these kind of shrewed strategies which lack
straight-forwardness.

In the Orthodox version, St. Thomas is rememberd as the Apostle of India. It is
plain and simple, yet not deviating from the truth, or politically stressing
only the 'gosple-preaching' aspect. Preaching  of Gospel is only one aspect of
Apostolicity, but Apostolicity also included the gifts of priesthood and the
authority to form Churches in different parts of the world.

(The moderators removed this portion)

Thank you.
Thomas P
St. Mary's Orthodox Church, St. George Orthodox Church, Thumpamon
==================================================================
From the desk of the moderator

Our (Jacobite) draft at first was' Bharathathil Karthavinte Suvissham Aruyichu
Mesihayil Namme Janippicha Nummude Kaval pithav Mor Thoma Sleehayem'.

The words used by HH in his Encyclical # E 265/87 in 1987
(http://sor.cua.edu/Personage/PZakka1/19871020MalankaraTubden.html)contains no
hidden meaning. The only inconvenience was the length. It has now been amended
to "Nammude Kaval Pithav Mor Thoma Sleehayeum Njangal Orkkunnu" to make it brief
with the permission of the Holy Synod, "St.Thomas, our Patron Saint" in English,
and there again there is nothing hidden. When you say THOMASLEEHA where does the
challenge occur to his APOSTOLATE, which is much above than the priesthood?

The former was first drafted and proposed by Perumpilly Thirumeni and was
annexed in the Encyclical of Aboon Mor Baselious Paulose II. The present form
was the only one used in the official Qurbanakramam with imprimatur of Paulose
II Bava and published from Seminary.

Moreover how can St. Thomas be "The Apostle of India" as Mr. Thomas P says! He
was the apostle of the East from Edessa to far East. The IOC version is
historically and geographically not faithful to the apostolic times.

In IOC version St. Thomas is not remembered as "The Apostil of India" as Mr.
Thomas Claim, but it is remembered only as "Our Father", please see the link
http://groups.msn.com/SOCM-FORUM/clarifications.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=10\
7

Dear Mr.Paul Philip:

I happened to go through your write-up on Mr. Philip Oomman, who was one of my
colleagues.  As I understand, he had a firm orthodox faith, and especially on
St. Mary.  I am, therefore, surprised to know about this latest development. 
what is Mr. Philip Oomman's real argument.

Regards.
M. V. Paul
KFUPM Box 1918
King Fahd University of Petroleum & Minerals
Dhahran 31261
Saudi Arabia
Phone: 860-4743
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the desk of the moderators

Dear Mr. M.V. Paul

Please refer the following postings
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOCM-FORUM/message/5096
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOCM-FORUM/message/5102
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOCM-FORUM/message/5103
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOCM-FORUM/message/5112
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOCM-FORUM/message/5120
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOCM-FORUM/message/5121
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOCM-FORUM/message/5122

Zealous Christians have a certain technique that they apply to secure the
continual remembrance of God more firmly. It is the constant repetition of a
short prayer, ordinarily either, "Lord, have mercy," or "Lord Jesus Christ, have
mercy on me, a sinner." If you haven't heard this, then listen now. If you have
never done this, begin now.

St. Theophan the Recluse.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Blessed be the Lord, Who has not given us as prey to their teeth."
Psalm 124:6

"PRIMACY OF ST. PETER IN THE CHURCH IS A WELL ACCEPTED FACT" –
CONSULTATION COUNCIL

"The primacy of St. Peter among the twelve disciples is a well accepted fact
according to Holy Bible, liturgies of Syrian Churches and Canon laws", says the
7th Pro-Oriente Syriac Consultation Council held at Chenganachery, Kerala.

"This primacy of St. Peter is seen by different Syrian churches with different
importance".  The council noted.

The Consultation Council was held at Kunnanthanam Sehion Retreat Centre,
Changanachery and was attended by the theologians from various Syrian Churches
namely, Assyrian Church of the East, Ancient Church of the East, Syriac Orthodox
Church of Antioch, Maronite Church, Syrian Catholic Church of Antioch, Chaldeon
Church, Malankara Orthodox Church, Malankara Catholic Church and Syro Malabar
Church.

In the Pro-Oriente Commission for Syrian Churches, Changanachery Archbishop Mor
Joseph Pauvvathil, Kottayam Orthodox Seminary Principal Rev. Dr. K. M. George,
Trivandrum Malankara Seminary Professor Rev. Fr. Varghese Chediyath are members.

Various Churches presented their thesis on the subject of "Primacy in Syrian
Ancestry". Thirty theologians from different Syrian Churches attended the
Consultation Council.  In the opening ceremony Catholicose Baselius Mathoma
Mathews II and Cardinal Mar Varkey Vithayathil delivered messages.  The closing
ceremony message was from Archbishop Cyril Mor Baselius of Malankara Catholic
Church. Changanachery Archbishop Mor Joseph Pauvvathil and Pro-Oriente
Foundation President Dr. Yohan Mathe welcomed the delegates coming from
different Syrian Churches

Source: Mathrubhumi Daily (Malayalam)

Dear all,

Most of the christian marriages are not done Lord's way.  The boy and girl are
fixed depending on "wealth", "share", "job", "family" etc. No one approches a
marriage as a Sacrament. It is approches as a social institution.

Here is Lord's guide lines.

Qualities to get married.
========================
1)  There should be match.  ( 2 Cori  6:14,15).
     List of matchings
     ===============
     A)  age
     B)  beauty
     C)  health
     D)  education
     E)  ability  (proverbs  12:4; 31:10)
     F)  similar family
     G)  character ( should be similar )[ proverbs  19:13; 21:9,19)
     H)  faith ( yes. very important )  1 Cori 7:39; 2 Cori 6:14;
         1Peter 3:12; Exodus 34:16;  Duet 7:1-4 ; Neh 10:28-30; 13:23-28

2)  Both should have a model life  ( 1 Tim  5:13,14; titus 2:4,5;1 Peter 3:1-5)

But what is happening now. Youngsters run after money, or beauty.
And naturally after marriage, soon they realize marraige is more than
all of this.  It is God designed, you simplyfy it.

Divorce is not allowed
======================
Malachi - 2:16
Matthew - 19:6
1 Cori 7:12,13
divorce is allowed only with adultry. (Hudaya canon; Mat 5:32; 9:6,9; Mark
10:11,12)

Do you want nice kids?  They are the product of nice family.

Besides, be a christian , be simple , be not greedy !

regards

Paul Reji
st. ignatious SOC
dallas

Dear all,

Some news papers have published a news item in which an IOC bishop have claimed
"How a two year old church can outst a 2000 year old church"

So as per him, the JSC is only two year old because we had formed a constitution
only two years back.

So then by the same yardstick IOC is only 70 year old.

By the same yardstick the Roman Catholic Church is yet to be "born"

Almost all apostolic churches in this world have to be "born again" to satify
the condition of this metran.

rgds
Baby Gleeson Zachariah
St George Jacobite Syrian Church
Arakunnam

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/cgi-bin/news.cgi?item=2r041010133643

[Following is a free translation, SOCM is not responsible for the contents and
it's translation]

The Metropolitan of Zimbabwe, Archbishop Theodoros, was today elected as the
Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa. He is the 130th Patriarch in
the line of succession from St Mark the Evangelist, who established the
Christian Church in Alexandria in AD 42, and is the spiritual leader of Orthodox
Christians in Africa and the Indian Ocean Islands.

He was elected to succeed Pope Petros VII, who was killed in a helicopter crash
on 11 September, along with the Metropolitans of Carthage and Pelousian
(Port Said) and the Bishop of Madagascar.

Among the first to commemorate the new Pope and Patriarch in prayer was the
Russian Orthodox parish of St Sergius of Radonezh in Midrand, South Africa,
where a Vigil was being held on Saturday afternoon to celebrate their patronal
feast.

Archbishop Theodoros (in the world Nicholas Chorevtakos) was born in Heraklion
in Crete in 1954. He studied theology at the University of Thessaloniki, and was
ordained deacon in 1975 and priest in 1978. In 1985 he became Exarch of the
Patriarchate of Alexandria in Odessa, and in 1990 was elected Bishop of Cyrene.
In 1997 he was elected Metropolitan of Cameroon (where he also followed the
previous Patriarch, Petros) and in 2003 Metropolitan of Zimbabwe

To Moderators: It is confusing that people are misquoting about Christological
issues, when I did not engage in such a discussion on Christology. Following is
my explanation to Mr. C.J. Varghese who made this allegation. Hope this will be
posted.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it was not me. I never wrote that the difference between Orthodox and
Nestorian faith is minimal. In fact, we did not discuss Christological issues
here. Kindly do not misquote.

Also, the Pope of Rome is in agreement with the Nestorian church in faith
matters. Dr. Babu Paul already wrote about the agreement between H.H. Yakub 111
and the Pope of Rome.

But I made a point that the post-nestorian Church of the East should not be
ignored. It is a matter of truth that the post-Nestorian church was Orthodox in
faith.

After Chalcedon, there was Byzantine (Eastern Orthodox) Catholicos of the East.
But this lineage did not continue. Today we have three lineages

- Nestorian (both old calendar and new calendar)
- Chaldean (RC communion)
- Orthodox (Oriental Orthodox)

-Thomas

St. Mary's Church/St. George Church, Thumpamon

--- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, Aby Abraham wrote:
>
> --- In SOCM-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, CJ Varughese wrote:
> >
> > Dear Br. Thomas,
> >
> > This refers to your message no.4in Digest No.1035, wherein you
> pointed out the following:
>
> Dear All,
>
> In the posting of Mr. Thomas P he is hint the SOC is going away
from the hloy ortodox faith. The IOC people are just blind or they
they never go through their own publications. They have published a
book called "Orthadox Vijnanakosham" in which they a lot of new
faiths. They are trying to rewrite the history of the churches. In
the section of Nestor they are showing that it was not a serious
matter and the difference in faith is negligiable. This is by
forseeing a possibility to link with the churches that follows
Noesthorial faith and to get an international address. Are they
beliving the faith "Theotocose or Chrisotocose". Are they calling St:
Mary as Daiva Mathavu or Kristhumathavu.