EVER LASTING LOVE !

God's everlasting love envelops me like a blanket
In the sky so dull and grey
I can just lie down His arms
Like a new born babe to be consoled
All is quiet and calm here
Sounds from distance haunt me like a nightmare
I wonder who can withstand the evil forces
Of nature when the whole world trembles
As a lady on the verge of labour
Love is sweetest when mingled with sorrow as
We see on the Calvary Cross
I am here standing as a forlorn sinner
Asking for forgiveness for the sins, which I have done
You understand me better. Tenderness and love
Mingled together, none but Thee, I want this, hour
When everything else in the world seems futile.

ODE TO MY LOVE

What will I do, Where will I go
At this hour, when all thoughts seem void.
The restless pulse of life is beating around me.
I want to sing and dance as David danced
But it will be awkward.
And your touch kindles fire still in my body
And brings tears of joy and sorrow mingled together to my eyes.
But, you seem not to know
Me though we are years together
Life is hard, I know, But what to say
My heart sings and cries for you when you are happy and troubled
Oh! I feel the agony and ectacy of Life
I feel life is gone out of me when I don't see you near by
Though we are years together
But you don't seem to know even
Life is hard, I know, but what to say
God has blessed us don't you see above all what we want in our lifetime
Or do you still want to scale new heights
Still further and be a Victor
For I want you to be a Winner
In all that you want in your Life

A NUGGET IN MY THOUGHT

Where did the birds go, where the flowers
All the land seem barren and dry
Like a dream in Arabia
I am here a forlorn traveler in the ages to come
Searching for a nugget of gold
In the treasure house of Nature
Life brought me treasures of value
Like love hope and peace
Which will never fade away
I'm happy to know that
I am in your thoughts far or near
It gives me strength go on
Beyond the far horizon and search for knowledge
To quench my quest for everlasting Love.

By Dr. (Mrs.) Mercy Abraham
Dated On: 28th October, 2002

Dear Dr. Thomas Joseph,

Thank you very much for translating and publishing the
shalmootho of St. Gregorius of Parumala. If one reads
through this, the relationship between the Malankara
Church and The Syriac Orthodox Church during the time
of St. Gregorious, will be clear as a crystal.

Thank you very much Dr. Joseph, for your effort...

Mathew

Fr. KK John wrote

<<<You say that Syrian Orthodox Church headed by HH
Zakka is the ONLY one that follows the apostolic
faith/teachings in full. Neither HH nor any scholar of
the Church would  make such a clandestine claim.
You say that Syrian Orthodox Church headed by HH Zakka
is the ONLY one that follows the apostolic
faith/teachings in full. Neither HH nor any scholar of
the Church would make such a clandestine claim. >>>


Fr. KK John..

If I recall the apostolic faith series by paul, he had
mentioned that the syriac orthodox church is ONE of
the Apostolic churches that follow the apostolic
faith/teachings but was never mentioned that she was
the ONLY one. It was also mentioned that the IOC was
NOT one of these churches because it decided to break
away, and this in my opinion, holds true...

Mathew

Dear Achan,

I am not so educated and wise to argue with you.And i am sure that we
all are fortunate enough to read and understand the correct answers
and explanations for each word of your mail from other well-read
scholars in this forum.But,i am a part of the coming generation of
Syrian orthodox christians.So let me have few words regarding this
mail.And group,please excuse me if i am wrong.

> I, Orthodox doctrines, without exception, underwent progressive
changes to
> acquire the present form. Orthodoxy's chief intent is
transformation of
> humanity and hence always dynamic.

We had seen so many changes till date.In the recent years we had seen
significant changes introduced by the IOC also.Remember,there is a
limit for everything.If this is allowed to continue,then there won't
be anything "orthodox" in Orthodox church.The protestant churches are
also introducing new changes every day.We don't want our church to
turn out to that extent.We treasure what our ancestors have taught
us.We want to keep the indentity of our church intact.And it is as
simple as that.."we,in the coming days, won't keep mum against that
at any cost".


> You say that Syrian Orthodox
> Church headed by HH Zakka is the only one that follows the apostolic
> faith/teachings in full. Neither HH nor any scholar of the Church
would make
> such a clandestine claim.

No one ever claimed like that.Our's is one among them who tries hard
to keep the faith to the root.And definitely not like.....


>
> 1, there were no parish buildings, gothic structures, etc like we
have today.
> Apostles and believers secretly gathered in residential houses of
the faithful.
> There was no "universal church" purporting the present meaning and
scope during
> the apostles' time, rather it emerged much later. All churches were
complete,
> managed locally and independent



Before christianity came to our land,our forefathers wandered in the
jungles.Does your words mean that we should go back to that extent?Is
this the reason behind IOC's attempts to close down all of our
ancient ( and financially sound) churches?Thanks for that info.

We understnad the exact meaning of this verse now only..

" But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to
put to shame the wise ,and God has chosen the weak
things of the world to put shame the things which are
mighty "

1 cor 1 :27

Regards
Jojo

8, There were only three priestly orders namely, bishop, presbyter
and deacon. Bishop and priest were not vastly different. The
term `presbyter' was concurrently used for both in the bible. But now
we have subdivisions in priestly ranks numbering altogether 9, in the
spiritual sense. The same ranks can be regrouped to 5 in the
administrative context depending on duty and jurisdiction namely,
Deacon, Priest, Bishop, Catholicos and Patriarch. Catholicos and
Patriarch are also bishops with equal spiritual powers. Hierarchical
difference applies only in respect of administrative functions.
Priest is in charge of parish not independently but as representative
of bishop, Bishop is in charge of diocese, Catholicose is in charge
of the east and Patriarch is in charge of Antioch and the east. This
innovation is also of later origin, not apostolic. Christendom was
unaware of titles such as Catholicose or Patriarch until AD 325, or
Nicene Council. The commonly understood title `vicar' does not belong
to apostolic origin nor it is orthodox but adapted from RC. So these
titles are not integral part of the apostolic faith or tradition or
fundamental to salvation but additions for easy administration.
Something which was added for the sake of convenience cannot form the
basic tenet of the Church, nor it is indispensable rather it can be
altered or abrogated as and when needed with the mandate of the
Council.
Note: Both terms, `east' and `India' mentioned in the Nicene Council
decisions are unrelated to present Malankara. They meant Persia for
east. India on those days had different territorial boundaries, which
included even present Afghanistan. Similarly, Antioch is namesake.
None of the Patriarchs of Antioch were from the territory of Antioch.
None of the Patriarchs ever after 6th century had his office in
Antioch. Now there are no Christians in Antioch, which is part of
Turkey. The title, `Patriarch of Antioch and all the east is self-
assumed. None of the 20 canons suggest that title. The relevant canon
#6 says, "Similarly, in regard to Antioch and the other provinces,
let the inherited rights of the Churches be preserved," page 283 of
volume I of "The Faith Of The Early Fathers" by W.A. Jurgens. Most
certainly "the other provinces" here do not include or refer to
Malankara. It is in chapter 7:1 of Hudoyo Canon we see
specifically, "And All the East." I do not intent to go into its
details now but state that Mor Bar Ebraya, compiler of Hudoyo canon,
was catholicos of Tigris under the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of
Antioch. He was undoubtedly referring to Persia by the word east
based on the custom that existed in his time that is 13th century.
Including Malankara in the east is only a wild imagination. These
titles are symbols of unity and if they fail to achieve unity and
peace, better such titles to be got rid of.

9, Priestly vestments were unknown to apostles. Neither Jesus nor His
apostles used any priestly vestments. They all were dressed alike,
like any other Jew rather in rags affordable to poor people and
according to local custom. Even the hallow seen in certain paintings
of Christ and saints are simple imaginations of artist. For example,
troops and officers of the Chief priests and Pharisees who came to
arrest Jesus could not identify or distinguish Him from others. For
this reason Judas came forward and kissed Him, Luke 22:47. According
to John 18:4-9, Judas did not kiss but betrayed their whereabouts and
Jesus Himself identified saying, "I am He." The vestments we now have
came into use as a result of Royal patronage of Emperor Constantine
and have undergone many improvements till present. Again pertinently,
it has much adaptation from the local culture, hence the difference
in style and design from country to country.

10, White stole (clery) which the orthodox priests wear on informal
times is peculiar to Malankara. The white cassock we usually wear is
adopted from Anglicans.

11, Special occasion's prayers for marriage anniversaries, birthdays,
sick, etc intruded in the worship services by the insistence of the
faithful who are not well acquainted with or least concerned about
Orthodox faith in many of our parishes. Songs we use in prayer
meetings, conventions, death (not to confuse with thesmestho) etc are
freely loaned from Pentecostals, Anglicans and Marthomites. Are we
following Syriac tunes in liturgies? Did Jesus or the apostles used
the present Bible, say 66 or 73 books? If they did not use it how it
would be deemed apostolic or if apostles did not use it how we claim
it apostolic?

12, what was the color code for the vestments in apostolic times? Do
the Corepiscopos follow HH direction regarding color-code? Some of
them, very staunch advocates for patriarch wear heavy gold chain and
cross pendants! And yet others clean-shave! How do these equate with
apostolic tradition? Jesus and apostles could not afford even a
donkey for travel. How then we justify luxurious life styles of
bishops? Do you know how crazy these successors of apostles are for
big cars and costly attires, let alone the greed for money and fame?
13, Office of bishop is reserved to unmarried people rather more
especially, now being legally unmarried is the only qualification to
get ordained as bishop. This is neither apostolic nor biblical. It is
the most unorthodox practice. St Peter, the head of apostles, was
married, the bible says. Phillip had 4 daughters who embraced
celibacy according to Polycrates. Not only they, some of the
apostles, were not only married but also they took along with them
believing wife, 1 Cor 9:5. Whether the `believing wife' was own or
wife of someone else is unclear. Imagine the fate of a bishop daring
similar imitation these days? All bishops until 5th century were
married. Roman Popes were married until 15th century. How then this
practice is apostolic?

14, Heresies mentioned in the canon are not applicable to disputes in
Malankara. Dispute about the sovereignty or sharing power does not
constitute heresy. Heresies are relational to basic doctrines of the
Church such as the divinity, person, nature of Christ, Trinity and
Mother, etc. If power struggle is considered heresy this dispute was
there among apostles and Jesus rebuked them and taught lesson of
serving. Mother of Jacob and John wanted Jesus to assure they would
be allotted right and left positions in the kingdom and Jesus
corrected her wrong notion. Roman Popes tried at all times to boss
over other bishops. Cyprian of Carthage, Polycrates of Ephesus and
such others stoutly resisted. But they were not considered heretics.
15, `Schismatic' is not the one who disobey the head, but one who
cause division

Fr. John Kunjukunju

The Kandanadu Marthamariam Church premises once again witnessed
untoward incidents between, the Jacobite Church faction and the
Indian Orthodox Church faction of Malankara Church due to the
unnecessary act of the Indian Orthodox vicar.

A group of believers belonging to Orthodox faction held a funeral
procession for Anjilivilil Kuriakose. Vicars, Fr George Mattummel
(65)and his relative and neighbour of the departed Fr Issac (Mohan
55), followed the funeral procession.

When the procession reached the west gate of the church, devotees
belonging to the Patriarch faction prevented the entry of Fr Issac
into the church premises as per the status co arrangement. Heated
exchanges took place between the two factions.

Meanwhile, Vicar Fr George Mattummal went inside the church and took
up the handles of Mutthukuda (decorative parasols) and started
attacking the resist and the mob too took up the handles of parasols
to fight each other. When the situation worsened vicar try to leave
the church without conducting the burial service. But the relatives
of the departed forced the vicar to conduct the service and he
completed the burial services. Meantime someone rang the Church bell
and many more people gathered at the church.

When he saw the crowd Fr George Mattummal afraid and took refuge in
the Mamodisamury (a chamber meant for baptism) and locked it from
the inside. Later, the Mulanthuruthy police reached the spot but the
believers prevented them to release the priest. After the two hours
talks with the police and believers police rescued Fr George.

Fr Issac and Fr. George were admitted to the Mulanthuruthy Hospital
as per their demand. Three others from the patriarch faction
Vezhaparammbu Thampi Varghese, 31, Mathew, 32 and Matthachan, 63.
were also admitted to the Mulanthuruthy Hospital.

The police have registered cases against both factions on the basis
of complaints from each faction.

1. Contempt of Court filed by Methran faction against Bava Thirumeni
and others  (Latest News - Petition dismissed)
http://www.geocities.com/malankarav3/Indian_Express_7_Nov_02.htm

2. 41st Remembrance day of Mor Clemis Thirumeni tomorrow
http://www.geocities.com/malankarav3/MorClemisThirumeni_41.htm

3. Tension again started to build up at Kandanad following the attack
on the parishioners by the local Indian Orthodox (Methran Kakshi) Priest
http://www.geocities.com/malankarav3/Kandanad_Issue_5.htm

4. Bishops of Methran Kakshi at a press conference held at Kochi,
expresses their doubt on the enthronement of Bava Thirumeni as
Catholicose by the Patriarch of Antioch
http://www.geocities.com/malankarav3/Press_conference.htm

For more links click below
http://www.malankaravoice.cjb.net
http://www.geocities.com/malankarav3/news_section_1.htm

To: YOU
Date: TODAY
From: THE BOSS
Subject: YOURSELF
Reference: LIFE

I am GOD. Today I will be handling all of your problems.
Please remember that I do not need your help.

If life happens to deliver a situation to you that you
cannot handle, do not attempt to resolve it. Kindly put it
in the SFGTD (Something For God To Do) box.
All situations will be resolved, but in My time, not yours.

Once the matter is placed into the box, do not hold onto
it by worrying about it. Instead, focus on all the
wonderful things that are present in your life now.

If you find yourself stuck in traffic; Don't despair.
There are people in this world for whom driving is an
unheard of privilege.

Should you have a bad day at work; Think of the man
who has been out of work for years.

Should you despair over a relationship gone bad;
Think of the person who has never known what it's like
to love and be loved in return.

Should you grieve the passing of another weekend;
Think of the woman in dire straits, working twelve hours
a day, seven days a week to feed her children.

Should your car break down, leaving you miles away
from assistance; Think of the paraplegic who would
love the opportunity to take that walk.

Should you notice a new gray hair in the mirror;
Think of the cancer patient in chemo who wishes
she had hair to examine.

Should you find yourself at a loss and pondering
what is life all about, asking what is my purpose?
Be thankful. There are those who didn't live long
enough to get the opportunity.

Should you find yourself the victim of other people's
bitterness, ignorance, smallness or insecurities;
Remember, things could be worse.
You could be one of them!

The 40th remembrance day of Abraham Mor Clemis, supremo, Malankara
Syrian Knanaya Jacobite Church will be held at the Chingavanam
St.John's Dayara Church today (8th November 2002)

Catholicos Baselios Thomas I, of the Malankara Jacobite Syrian
Orthodox Church,will lead a Anchinmel Qurabana (Penta Mass) at the
church at 9am.

Congress leader K Karunakaran MP will inaugurate a commemoration meet
after the services.

Marthoma Metropolitan Philipose Mar Chrysostam, Kottayam Knanaya
Catholic Diocese supremo Mar Kuriakose Kunnaserry, R Balakrishna
Pillai MLA, K Suresh Kurup MP, Mercy Ravi MLA and NSS general
secretary P K Narayana Panikkar will speak.

Mar Chrysostam will inaugurate the Mar Clemis Library and Ecumenical
Centre.

Mar Kuriakose Kunnasserry will launch the Mar Clemis Priest Welfare
Trust.

Web pages related to Mor Clemis
http://sor.cua.edu/Personage/Malankara/MClemisAVayala.html
http://www.knanayaworld.com/
http://www.syrianorthodoxarchdiocese.com/ClemisA.html

Dear All,
My sincere appreciation of Dr.Thomas Josephs effort to
translate Parumala Thirumenis Salmoosa.

It clearly indicates the people who make money from the
saints Tomb that they are not the real owners of the saints
legacy.
Love
vmt

Fr. John Kunjukunju wrote:

<<< Both terms, `east' and `India' mentioned in the
Nicene Council decisions are unrelated to present
Malankara. The title, `Patriarch of Antioch and all
the east is self-assumed. Including Malankara in the
east is only a wild imagination >>>

Dear Fr. KK John,

Achan, it does not really matter what the Nicene
Council stated because the opening DECLARATION of the
Methran Factions (IOC’s) so called -1932 Constitution-
states: "The Malankara Church is a division of
Orthodox Syrian Church. The primate of the Orthodox
Syrian Church is the Patriarch of Antioch." Therefore,
this is accepted by the IOC leaders officially when
they file a case (which by the way is done so often
these days that no one can keep track), or when
arguing in the courts. The IOC leaders when necessary
accepts the Patriarch in the courts if advantageous,
and the same leaders propagate just the opposite to
the common man. This Achan, is called deception. Then
again, this phenomenon of 'double talk' could be a
classic example of the 'Dynamic State of Orthodoxy',
as described by you in your prior article.

Mathew

II, Paul Philipose wrote, "Syrian church is apostolic and existed all
the time."

1, this assertion is factually wrong. Apostolic succession of Antioch
ceased to exist in the 6th century due to continued Roman
persecution. Jacob Burdono, a monk from Edessa secretly went to
Alexandria. Patriarch of Alexandria ordained him a bishop, who in
turn ordained many bishops, Patriarch of Antioch (Sergius) and a
catholicose. Thus the present apostolic succession of Antioch is from
Alexandria. But Alexandrian Patriarch did not enslave nor eyed on the
wealth of the Church of Antioch for favoring with apostolic
succession. Antioch all the time thereafter was independent, not
subject to the authority of Alexandria. Yet there were many occasions
when there were no Patriarchs (empty Throne) and there were times
when as many as three rival patriarchs ruled at the same time. Thus
we have three lists of Patriarchs! If the Church is depends upon the
patriarch for its existence then we have to say Church did not exist
many times, has no continuity or else the office of patriarch is not
fundamental to the existence of the Church.

2, you have gone in detail about the relation with heretics namely,
whether to pray with them, go to their church, sit with them, eat
with them, etc. In the same light you may explain how you justify the
newly created relationship with the RC Church. The patriarch had many
visits to Pope and made joint declarations. How about doctrines
of `Fillioque theory amending the Nicene Creed, Infallibility of
Pope, Immaculate Conception of Mary, Purgatory, making and installing
idols, etc? Are they not heretics theologically and historically?
Without first changing these, and other ex-cathedra orders, which RC
hold dear, how unity is possible?

3, HH welcomed Marthoma bishop Kurilose Yuyakim Couple years ago at
his aramana. The bishop stayed as patriarchal guest for a few weeks
in hot pursuit of tracing his ancestral roots. HH not only hosted him
but also extended all out support to his endeavor

4, A few years back Thozhiyur bishop Kurilose Joseph visited HH. He
stayed in the patriarchal aramana for a few days and at the time of
departure HH presented a "Tablitho" to him. He conducts Holy Quorbono
on that Tablitho, eversince. RK Fenwick, historian says, this is
ample evidence of due recognition or authentication of that Church.

5, Now you may ask, how about the claim of St Thomas' Throne, is it
not heresy, etc. I do agree that this was the very visible reason why
the Church split in seventies and the Church was once again dragged
into litigation. The Supreme Court made a historic decision on June
25, 1995. The SC did not give any credit to the disputed throne. They
did not discuss it at length but simply said the use of title, "St
Thomas throne is honorific." In other words it does not matter
whether or not one uses it. The verdict is also candidly silent
whether to use it or not

May I ask from your incongruous position about heretics how you would
deal with personal relationships? For example, I know at least more
than a dozen priests who are staunch supporters of Antioch gave in
marriage their children and siblings to the so-called heretics and
Protestants. It seems funny that people so virulently fight for faith
but never care when question of marriage of their children or sibling
comes up!  How apostolic is such predicaments?

I wrote this much to show that the Church has gone through various
evolutions over years. Undoubtedly the Church has authority to effect
changes for edification of its members. Apostolic succession cannot
be claimed exclusively by one church as its birthright. Claim of
superiority or inferiority of one church over the other is
unchristian.

Fr KK John

CPM overtures to Orthodox Church faction

KOCHI: The running feud between the Orthodox and
Patriarch factions of Malankara Church is all set
to take a political turn with the CPM evincing keen
interest in addressing the grievances of the Orthodox
faction.

Just an hour after the Orthodox Church announced its
decision to deal politically with the ``indifferent
government'' at a press conference here on Thursday,
two Metropolitans of the Orthodox Church had closed-
door parleys with LDF convener Paloli Muhammed Kutty
at the Government Guest House here.

In the hour-long meeting, Metropolitans Thomas Mar Athanasius
and Mathews Mar Sevarios apprised the LDF convener of the
details of the court verdict which, according to them, had
vested the control of majority of Malankara churches with the
Orthodox faction. They also expressed the Church's concern
over the UDF Government's failure in implementing the court
orders.

In the discussion, the Metropolitans stressed that the democratic
forces should raise their voice against the Government's ``denial
of justice'' to the Orthodox faction. The LDF convener who gave a
patient hearing to the Church leaders assured them that he would
take up the issue at the next meeting of the LDF slated for
November 16.

The LDF leaders and the senior Church functionaries would meet
again on November 18. Later, a high-level committee of the Church
would meet on November 20 to review the outcome of the November
18 meet, sources confided.

According to sources, it was the CPM which took the initiative to
address the grievances of the Orthodox Church. As a precursor to
Thursday's meeting, the CPM leaders, including party central
committee member M A Baby, had held a couple of informal meetings
with the Church heads in the recent days.

The rank and file of Orthodox faction is confused over seeking the
help of LDF in resolving the Church issue. While the ``Kottayam
faction'' is strongly opposed to seeking the LDF help in the Church
dispute, youth members of the Church, especially from Pathanamthitta,
Ernakulam, Thrissur and Idukki districts, are pressuring the
leadership to go on the offensive with LDF support.

Source: www.newindpress.com 8th November 2002

Dear brothers,

Let me keep you posted on the actual happenings at
kandanad on 6th.

On fifth there was a death in the parish. the deceased
was one kuriakose who had come to kandanad almost 35
years back. his native church is some where in
thiruvalla. since the beginning of the present
fightings in 74, he was a stouch patriarch faction
supporter. but due to the special condition prevailing
in the church he was not given a membership in the
church. He was a manual labourer who was just living
with his means.

during the time of his ( only)daughters marriage since
he could not get a "desakuri" from his native parish,
the patriarch faction arranged it from the nearby
parish church, which is fully under the control of
patriarch faction.

by fate his son in law went to the orthodox faction
along with athanasious

the status quo prevailing in the church permits only
priests of one faction to enter the church
alternatively. so when a patriarch faction member dies
our people do all the rites in the nearby chapel and
then take the body direct to the cemetry with out
going to the church.

since the son in law of the deceased belonged to
orthodox faction he wanted the last rites to be
performed by the orthodox priest ie george mattamel.
even though the deceased person was a stouch loyalist
of the patriarch faction,our people agreed for that
since there was nobody else in the family who could
take decisions.

since it was the turn of orthodox faction our people
permitted george mattamel to conduct the last rites.
but as per the status quo no other priest is supposed
to enter and our people had made it very clear on
that.

but when the funeral procession came, one more priest
issac mattamel, who is a close relative of george
mattamel was with the procession. george mattamel and
the people with the procession was allowed to enter
and issac mattamel was stopped beyond the gate. only 6
people of patriarch faction was present since nobody
anticipated this problem.

on being stopped in front of the church issac mattemel
started shouting at our people using words not fit for
even an orthodox priest to use. on this our people
"handled" him and he was taken to hospital. on seeing
this george mattemel came out of the chuirch with a
"muthu kuda kal" and started beating our people. they
didnt respond since they wanted the last rites to be
completed. none of the people except the son in law
came out with the priest.

after beating our people george mattemel started
leaving without conducting the last rites. he was
stopped and was forced to conduct it. by this time
since news had spread more people reached the church.
police also came. george mattamel came out of the
cemetry with police protection, but on seeing the
croud ran and took shelter in the "mamodissa muri" and
locked from inside.

he waited for some time and when he felt that he can
go home with police protection he opened the door.
seeing that our people rushed inside and "handled"
him.

since police was present, our people didnt allow him
to be taken without arresting. finally george mattemel
was arrested, taken to police station and then to
hospital.


our people had tried the maximum for the last rites of
the deseased to be conducted peacefully. provocation
came from orthodox side when the other priest tried to
enter and on being stopped he used gutter language.
even when george mattamel had beaten our people, no
body responded, because we wanted the last rites to be
peacefull.

but after completing everything if our people have
returned in kind what ever they got, no body can blame
them.

because getting beaten up by a priest dosent send you
direct to heaven. pain is the same for everybody.

GLEESON

To moderators:

Re:  Fr. John Kunjukunju
Subject: Re. Apostolic Church (Reply to Mr. Paul Philipose) Part 3 (End)

Dear Achan,

For someone who was such a lion for the Apostolic throne of Antioch, I am
thoroughly dissapointed with the dissertations I see in this forum bearing
your name. The "part 3" of your arugument against Paul Philipose is
especially troubling because, though sounding material,  is in fact
irrelevant to why anyone should follow the Methran faction's
AntiCatholicose. If you purport that the Antiochian succession is corrupt
because it was broken, then how much more corrupt is the AntiCatholicose,
who made up a title for himself in the 20th century, w/o any succession at
all?

Besides, from an ecclesiastical point of view, the succession is not from
Rome, or Antioch, or Alexandria. The succession is from Chirst through
Peter! If the Antiochian church was w/o a Patriarch, then it is perfectly
legitimate to receive the patriarchy from a successor of Peter, whether he
be in Alexandria or wherever. In fact, this is FAR superior to seizing a
"throne" for oneself. If the AntiCatolicose was consecrated by the Pope, for
example, I could not complain about it with regards to succession.

Please come back to the truly "orthodox" faith, because all your knowlegde
about Syriac, church history, etc. is wasted on a group of people, who, if
they continue on this same path, will not exist 100 years from now due to
the treachery in their leadership's hearts.

Fus b'shlomo (Good bye, in Syriac)

Rev. Dn. Zacharia Varghese
Dallas, Texas

Fr. KK John wrote:
<<<"Syrian church is apostolic and existed all the
time." This assertion is factually wrong. Apostolic
succession of Antioch ceased to exist in the 6th.
Jacob Burdono, a monk from Edessa secretly went to
Alexandria. Patriarch of Alexandria ordained him a
bishop. Thus the present apostolic succession of
Antioch is from Alexandria.”>>>

Fr. KK John,

Did Patriarch Theodosius'(Patriarch of Alexanderia)
participation as chief celebrant break the line of
succession of Antioch among the Syrian Orthodox
Church? Mark established the Alexandrian church. Was
Mark an apostole? No, Mark was NOT an apostle but was
sent by Peter. Therefore, your claim/argument hasn't
proven anything.

Mathew

Fr.John Kunjukunju wrote in Digest No.383 -  "Apostolic succession of
Antioch ceased to exist in the 6th century due to continued Roman
persecution. Jacob Burdono, a monk from Edessa secretly went to Alexandria.
Patriarch of Alexandria ordained him a bishop, who in turn ordained many
bishops, Patriarch of Antioch (Sergius) and a catholicose. Thus the present
apostolic succession of Antioch is from Alexandria."

Dear all,

At many times in this forum i have read similar messages which says that the
Patriarchate at Antioch had lost the Apostolic succession from St.Peter in the
6th century and later the Jacobite Patriarchate at Antioch was reinstated
through the Patriarchate of Alexandria, who in turn claim apostolic succession
from St.Mark and hence the apostolic succession of the present Jacobites is
from St.Mark and not from St.Peter etc.. Is these arguments fully correct ?

Now as far as I know, it was St.Peter who appointed St.Mark as the first bishop
of Alexandria.  The Church at Alexandria considers this St.Mark as their first
bishop.  Moreover it is well known that St.Mark accepted Christianity from
St.Peter. So St.Mark was the disciple of St.Peter, the chief of the Apostles.
Also in Peter 5.13,  St.Peter is mentioning ST.Mark as “my son”.  From all
these it is very clear that  the Alexandrian apostolic succession also is from
St.Peter.

When this is the fact, how could some claim that the Jacobite Patriarch of
Antioch lost the Apostolic succession from St.Peter in the 6th cent.

John Philip Kottapparambil

In a shalmosa all parts are important. Can we give importance only to
the part where Anthioc is mentioned, for current advantage?  The
shalmosa mentions also other important things like observing the
canons, not taking any money for ordination, remaining firm in the
faith of Orthodox fathers like Severus,  Diascoros, etc.

We can see many deviations today.  Ecumenism itself is a deviation if
we take all parts of shalmossa with equal importance.  Today can we
say that bishops are strict about diet restrictions? Can we say that
ancient lent practises are diluted? Can we eat before taking
communion? How strictly we observe the canons?

Exaggerating one aspect for momemtary advantage fails in showing us
the real value of the shalmossa or any document.

Things changed a lot after the shalmosa. Church is not a static
entity. We need to accept the positive developments which did not
deviate in the core, which is the faith.

A shalmossa, which is valid only for a specific period in history,
should be studied taking the entire history of the church, on how
sincere we are with respect to the faith of the church,
old Orthodox practises etc.

-Thomas

1. Chevalier Jacob Philip Peediyekkal (48,Thiruvalla), the treasurer of
the 'Syrian Orthodox Service Society' & the 'St.Mary's charitable society',
passed away    http://www.geocities.com/malankarav4/demise.htm

2. Methran Kakshi (Indian Orthodox faction) trying to get closer
with Marxist party to defeat the ruling UDF Government and to overcome
the Jacobite Syrian Church  ---  An exclusive news report by the
Indian Express daily dt.7th November 2002
http://www.geocities.com/malankarav4/Indian_Express_7_Nov_02.htm

3. "Success of the recent Orthodox (Methran) factions initiative to have
a tie-up with Marxist party doubtful"  -  A report from Mangalam daily
http://www.geocities.com/malankarav4/LeftFront.htm

4. Methran faction's statements most unfortunate :  Association Secretary
http://www.geocities.com/malankarav4/Mangalam_8_oct_02.htm

For more links click below
http://www.malankaravoice.cjb.net
http://www.geocities.com/malankarav4/news_section_1.htm

Please pray for my father ( Dr . C. E. Eappen and our family).
He has been in the ICU 6 months and has now decided to stop
therapy. With the help of God he will die peacefully. We are
very sad.
Roy Eappen
--------------------------------------------
From the desk of moderators

May the Alimighty god receive him in his eternal home peacefully.
May the Lord of peace and consolation console all in your family.
Be strong in faith. Hope will last for ever.

with prayers
SOCM

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I have received a kind response from Thomas P about my questions.
Unfortunately, the email is lost now. I read the reply and was
introduced to some interesting arguments. However, I remain
unpersuaded and would like to respond and engage in a productive
debate. Unfortunately, I have lost the weblinks that were used to
make the reply's point. I wanted to show the links to other
scholars.

Dear Thomas P, if you can send me those links again with your
promised reply to the question of Antiochian succession, I would
very much appreciate it. I would also like to post your replies into
the SOCM forum so that others may benefit from the exchange, if all
are willing.

I commend you for actually providing information and documentation,
even though I have problems with said information, and not engaging
in rumor-mongering, which many are apt to do on all sides.

Sincerely,
Dn. Zach Varghese, Dallas

Reply to Mr. Thomas p

dear brother,

the reply to your question wheather we will take any
sacrement from an orthodox priest is NO. why should
we?? any priest of the orthodox faction or a
metropolitian is excommunicated from the church by the
patriarch and as such doesnt have any spiritiual
standing in our church. taking any sacrement from
those "LAYMEN" is against the faith of this church and
attracts condemnation by the church.

if you have time to go through the "salmosa" of ST
Gregorious you can find the condemnation which will
fall on us if we indulge in those practises.

for you people it doesnt matter. you will take
sacrement from any one who suits you. you will take
sacrement even from pentecostal brothers if you feel
you will get "something". for you everything is
materialistic.

and that is the difference between us.
GLEESON

Dear Fr. KK John, Thomas and others,

    I read your reply and thanks for it. You raised many points. First
I thought I should not reply to it, because my first letter was
enough for a person to think and decide where they stand in the
church. Besides if I say something unpleasant, I will be doing a sin
because of some people outside the church, and I did not want to
commit it. Then I thought I have to defend my LORD's bride because
that is my duty. I was thinking `what I should say.' I don't want to
hurt you or offend you in any way. I beg your forgiveness for that if
I do so. But I have to reply. I started thinking what could have
prompted a priest to reply to me.

I came up with three reasons:

1) To justify that your church is the correct one.
2) To rationalize your "faith"
3) To prove that "Jacobite" church is not the correct one.

First my views on this, then I will address some issues you have
raised.

1) To justify your church is correct in its position.

     You have used quotes from St. Ignatius and St. Severus. You have
exhorted us to follow his model. Have they preached that every
apostle of Christ has established a See? Have they disobeyed their
church?  Have they worked against the canon? Have they taken an oath
in God's name and then broken it? Have they tried to close the church
of the true faithful? Actually the church is catholic (universal),
apostolic and holy (Orthodox). Just because some one has named a
church "orthodox" that church will not become orthodox. Orthodox
means holy.  Read my original article and judge yourself if your
church is holy? If so, my understanding of holiness is totally
different from yours. Why quote bishops when holy church has canon,
which you are not obeying?  The church fathers decided under the
guidance of the Holy Spirit that there are only 4 Sees. Was the Holy
Spirit not aware of the fact that there was a church in malankara
too? Do you think the Holy Sprit suddenly remembered in 1965 that
there was a Malankara church?

Let me quote St. Chrysostom in his third homily on Penance, speaking
of Peter thus "Peter himself the chief of the Apostles, the first in
church." "and when I remember Peter, I name that unbroken rock, that
firm foundation, the great Apostles the first of the
disciples". "After so great an evil (The denial) He again entrusted
to his hand the primacy over universal Church".

Eusebius (AD 324) in this Chronicle (2:150) writes: "The Apostle
Peter when he had first founded the Church of Antioch set out for the
city of Rome and there preaches the Gospel... He Peter besides the
Church of Antioch"

I can quote many more. But this is enough. It does not matter if
Apostle Peter is the head of the church, I will accept who ever it
may be. As long as it is a church established by Jesus Christ and is
guided by Holy Spirit, I will be in that church. Is your church the
correct one? You have said that proof is not required. Only faith is
enough. No Father, faith alone is not enough. That was the argument
of Luther (which I have quoted at the end). Because your decision is
emotional and all proofs are against you, you are saying no proof is
required.

2) To rationalize your own faith:

I don't know how you ended up in the wrong faith. When you read my
article you might have felt guilty. Every sin is associated with
justification. Even a killer has justification for his sins. But we
know it is not rational. People who don't observe lent have an excuse
too. Even homosexual, divorcee, those that deny priesthood and
confession, all have a root cause to justify it and there is always a
Bible evidence to prove it. Giebels believed that repeating a lie
1000 times would make it the truth. Yes, may be among human beings it
is true, but not in front of God. You said that you need no proof and
only faith to believe in the See of Thomas.

    Because it is a feeling or emotion, 99% chance is that you are
wrong. In DC when the sniper was out loose, people were afraid to go
out for the fear of dying. The chance of dying there was 1 in 2
million or so (or .0000005%).  Here your probability of being wrong
is 99%. (I have quoted why that is, at the end). But still you have
decided to be on the wrong side. Is that emotion or false pride? Do
you know you are also the descendants of the fathers who went to
Koonan Cross and took this oath: "I and my sons for generations will
be loyal to church of Antioch." And are you loyal now? Did you
respect your Forefathers?

3) To prove that Jacobite church is not the correct one, and in that
process to take away the faithful from the church, by deceiving them.
There are lots of people who think that both are somewhat the same.
There is no doubt that the Jacobite church is the true one. The
argument here is if your church is true one or not. Now by stating
your "Catholicos" church is on par with Lord's church, you are trying
the trick of Confusion. Who is the one doing all this? Who is the
master of confusion and lies and deception? Who closes the churches
and challenge the church? Has your bishop Mor Nicholavas obeyed his
head of the church? I have heard him taking oath that he has no
relationship with "Catholicos faction" after Holy Qurbana in front of
the faithful in God's house.  He broke that oath and when that
happened, you have accepted him as your bishop. I also heard that he
claimed "He returned to the church he was born". So as per your
bishop we have two churches. One he was born and other he deceived.
But Jesus said He has only one church. In any case your 'church'
challenges the Lord's church and your "catholicos" broke his oath.
Your bishops filed so many cases (365 of them, so that we could go to
the court every day of the year) to close our church and now you have
a bishop who also broke the oath taken in the name of God. To me, it
all fits together.

Contd... Part 2

Paul Philipose

Dear all
My Father Dr. Collaparambil Eappen Eappen passed away peacefully
yesterday at 7pm. He had struggled for six months. I thank all of
you for praying for him.
Roy Eappen
Montreal, Canada

--- In SOCM-FORUM@y..., Roy Eappen wrote:
> Please pray for my father ( Dr . C. E. Eappen and our family).
> He has been in the ICU 6 months and has now decided to stop
> therapy. With the help of God he will die peacefully. We are
> very sad.
> Roy Eappen
> --------------------------------------------
> From the desk of moderators
>
> May the Alimighty god receive him in his eternal home peacefully.
> May the Lord of peace and consolation console all in your family.
> Be strong in faith. Hope will last for ever.
>
> with prayers
> SOCM

Welcome brothers

M.T. Abraham, Manarcad Church, Employ for Aramco.

***********************************

Mathew Thomas, Pampady Church, doing own business

  *****************************************
Joseph V.K. Kottayam , Own business

SAMAJAM, Sunday prayer has arranged a three minute silent  prayer for
Dr. C. E. Eappen.  May Almighty God allow to keep his soul on the lap
of Abraham, Ishaq and Yaqoob.  Also let Almighty God extend the
support of "Parishudda Rooha" for courage to accept his departure to
his "Tharavadu" and pray for us.

SAMAJAM

2003 CALENDER

A beautiful calender for 2003 with the colourful pictures of Jesus Christ
along with St.Mary, St. Thomas, St. Gheevarghese and St. Gregorios. Twelve
sheets of calender with the holidays of USA and Kerala alongwith most of our
Church important days mentioned in Malayalam. At the top of the calender in
Malayalam it is written that our Jesus Christ is the saviour. Along with the
picture of our present official cross is also there. Instead of looking into
three calenders just look only one this calender. It is made as easy as to
read most of our important days in Malayalam each and every days of the year.
All the twelve pages of the calender days are in multicolours. Those who
received this calender already said and recommended that this calender is a
worth one for each and every one of our families. The calender is at present
ready for distribution. Pleasecontact me at 248-740-4923 or anujanmon@...
or P.P. Joykutty, 2686 Athena Dr., Troy,Michigan-48083-2468. The encouragement
given by each and every one of our people has given me to do the ability of
this work.

It is requested your continues prayers and support for my such works.

May God Bless You all
WithPrayers and Love
Joykutty,Detroit

Dear Achan,
     Let me ask you this. Are you following your father's faith? I
always wonder what you do as a priest when you read the 5th Thubden
(For the departed spiritual fathers and doctors of the church). Do
you know where those souls will be? They will rejoice God in my
church with us. You criticize all those fathers for 6 and half days
(from Sunday afternoon onwards) and then pray for them and seek their
intersession on Sunday. You have 365 (and more) cases against the
church, which produced these fathers. And you talk endless abuse on
this church and the sons of these church fathers who died for our
Lord Jesus Christ and His church...  Tell me, will God forgive you?

     You said faith is enough. Is it? I can give early church history
and name of all bishops from Apostle to this day and all Holy Synods
and there decisions. We have a church rule book called canon, passed
on to us by our fathers. Show me:
     1) That Apostle Thomas established a See some where from early
literature
     2) show me who succeeded Apostle Thomas?
     2) Show all bishops till this date
     3) Were any local synods convened? What were the decisions? Was
See of Thomas established?
     4) Where was the See established? Kottayam? Kochi? Madras? Kanoor?
     5) Any early church history in Malankara, except bishops coming
from Antioch
     6) Any argument about See of Antioch before 1900 AD, or even from
1950 AD?
     7) Your catholicos told justice 'MaliMadu', that you are willing
to remove that claim 'See of Thomas' from letter heads in 2002. So
your 'See of Thomas' is something, which could be dropped and
recreated at your will?

I am surprised so many Christian radios preach the protestant version
of the Gospel. Many of them have such respect for Luther as
their 'Saint'. Brief statements that Luther made are

1) When he was a bishop under Pope: "Most Holy Father (Pope Leo X), I
cast myself at thy feet with all I have and am ....."
2) When he wanted to marry and do other lustful acts:
    "It was Luther's idea, how ever that so long as one had faith,
conduct was not of great importance. This he wrote to Melancthon: "Be
a sinner, and sin boldly, but believe more boldly still. Sin will not
drag us away from Him, even should we commit fornication or murder
thousands and thousands of times a day (Letter of August, 1521).
     So annoying to him were the Ten Commandments, that he wrote of
them "We must put the whole Decalogue entirely our of our sight and
out of our hearts. If Moses scares you with his stupid Ten
Commandments, say to him at once "Take yourself off to your Jews! To
the gallows with Moses" (Rebuilding a lost faith -page 126).

3)  He wanted to prove that he was justified for all his actions. So
he went ahead and added on the word "alone" to Rom 3:28 "Man is
justified by faith [alone]".  When questioned he wrote, "It shall
remain in 'my' New Testament and it all the Popish donkeys were to
get mad and beside themselves, they will not get it out."

4)  Once he became angry he called all people in Germany to "burn down
Jewish schools and synagogues" destroy catholic churches and kill
them.
5)  He declared "Who ever teaches otherwise than I teach, condemns
God and must remain a child of Hell" (it means Yes I am the Lord")
(page 131)

6)  Luther had no mercy on the poor in Peasant's war and exhorted the
nobles to kill them and 100,000 were killed. (page 129)

7)  Luther tried to influence the people by forcing the authorities
to punish those who differ from his teachings in the universities. In
1556 the Pfalsgraf, Otto Heinrich declared that the doctrine of
Luther, the exclusive religion of the land.

And we hear day and night from TV and radio, protestant Gospel
created by Luther. But I could not help to find seminaries to
Luther's argument and you and your churches. For the Protestants,
Luther is a 'saint'

  1)  First your catholicos took vows in the name of God "I will obey
Peter and all Patriarchs".

  2)  Then Catholicos said "You are foreigner and Arab". Now you say
to me "I only need faith". Your catholicos in Kerala High Court: "I
don't know 10 commandments" (to me it reads as, I don't care").

  3)  Catholicos wanted to justify his arguments. So he started
Modifying Word of our Lord. "Peter up on this rock I will establish
MY CHURCH" and  ..."I will give you the Keys of Heaven." This is
modified to suit your case.
      I have a question, how did your Catholicos know that this is
what Jesus meant? (What about St. Chrysostom? What about St.
Ignatius? What about Eusebious? Your catholicos could say "Hell with
them I am infallable")

4) So some innocent faithful people want to listen to church canon.
They believe in orthodox faith and are under orthodox bishop. But
your catholicos is angry and shouted "Close down their Churches. Beat
them
Hit them. Seize their belongings. They are praying to the LORD".

6)   He declared, "Whoever that refuses to obey me should be punished
by any means." "I will go to the court; Destroy them in any way I can"

7)   Catholicos had no mercy on the poor faithful of the church.
Catholicos went to the court to destroy the faithful though the
Supreme court said "every church is independent". Your catholicos
declared "NO, it belongs to the catholicos." Luther sided with
nobles. Most of the rich and 'nobles' are in your side. With help of
these nobles your faction tried to kill our prayers. I know you are
not killing us, because of the laws. Otherwise we would have been
dead now. You cancelled the Visa of Patrachal representative and sent
him back. Did he not believe in the orthodox faith? Didn't he pray to
the LORD?  Didn't he obey his head? He did. But you want to destroy
every thing associated with the LORD's church. (Including its
churches, its people, its bishops.) Its bishops are consecrated by
the church head, legally. Whether Apostle Thomas established a See
here or not, still they are legal bishops.  But your faction does not
care.

8)   Like Luther, your catholicos tried to influence the 38 MLA's and
persuaded them to act against some poor faithful and ban them from
praying to our LORD.

contd... Part 3

Paul Philipose

Dear moderator
I want to say thankyou so much for posting the HAIL MARY in syriac..
{ phonetic }

I  studied aramaic at the catholic institute /  university in paris {
rue d'Assas } and so although I only did one year of syriac { two of
hebrew } I am still able to read a little in the original language

Would you be able to post the prayer in syriac script too, as well as
the phonetic script ??

And I would also like to ask youl, what would one say in the syriac
if instead of the words: "Mother of God" which is the English
rendition of the Greek "Theotokos" we were to actually use the
word "Theotokos", saying "Holy Mary, Theotokos, pray for us
sinners .." etc, which is what one says in Greek when one says the
Hail Mary in that language  .. { I actually, thanks be to God and not
to me, managed to complete three years of both biblical and demotic
Greek }

as in :
ƒ±ƒ×ƒÙƒÑƒnƒ½ƒÑƒâƒÙƒÑƒnƒÁƒÕƒßƒäƒßƒÛƒÕƒnƒàƒâƒßƒãƒÕƒåƒÓƒÕƒnƒàƒÕƒâƒnƒåƒÝƒçƒÞ„Qƒ=
nƒäƒçƒÞƒnƒÑƒÝƒÑƒâƒäƒßƒÜƒçƒÞƒnƒÞƒåƒÞƒnƒÛƒÑƒÙƒnƒãƒäƒØƒÞƒnƒçƒâƒÑƒnƒä
ƒßƒåƒnƒáƒÑƒÞƒÑƒäƒßƒåƒnƒåƒÝƒçƒÞƒnƒ±ƒÝƒØƒÞ

I think thats correct.... my written greek is a bit rusty...

I am a { very orthodox } catholic in union with the bishop of rome
who have all my life LOVED the eastern church and gone to the Liturgy
of our Father St John Chrysostom, and I even visited kerala some 12
years ago, to visit a Syrian Jacobite Orthodox Ashram called Mar
Gregorios Ashram which is not far from Kottayam if I remember
rightly.. it is the Ashram of the STIGMATIC Orthodox nun Sr Susan
Kuruvilla who has had the WOUNDS of Christ on her body and forehead {
crown of thorns } since she was a young girl..

I would be very grateful dear if you could send me the address of
that Mar Gregorios Ashram as I have lost it and very much want to
write to Sr Susan again..

hoping to hear from you and thanking you again for that lovely
prayer.. perhaps you could post some other syriac prayers - which
would be lovely .. I am reading the life of St Ephrem the Syrian at
the moment..

  your brother in Christ - who every day of his life prays for the
reunion of all Christians especially for the orthodox-catholics and
all other catholics to be together in the One Universal and Apostolic
Unity which Christ gave us originally.. so that we may all be one
together in Christ, as Jesus and the Father are One in the Unity of
the Holy Spirit, One Essence, for ever and ever. Amen

dodi {giordano elia marian Ferro de Garam}

------------------------------------------------------
From the desk of the moderator

The Greek Text is not readable in the daily digest. Interested
persons may contact the moderator directly.

Dear Dodi
Syriac scripts of Hail Mary is available at following links
http://groups.msn.com/StGeorgeSyrianOrthodoxChurchCheppaud/hailmary.msnw