Peter

 Thank you....

 This is the data that you don't find in typical avenues of genealogical
research. I wouldn't even know where to begin to look for it.

   Understanding the basis of  the economy and what commodities our
 ancestors owned or traded  
 helps to understand their financial status and general lifestyle. 

 I need to revisit the 1869 census with this new information....

 Thanks again Peter.

Larry 

----- Original Message -----


From: "htcstech" <htcstech@...>
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 3:14:30 PM
Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which family

Hi Larry,

The classification of bulls, cows, oxen and 'borju' - calves into Hungarian
or Swiss was important to the economy. I got most of this info from bits
and pieces during wider research in genealogy and so generally not set in
stone.

The beef trade between all of old Hungary and Europe from about 1560
onwards became increasingly important. It was one aspect that both the
Turks and the Hungarians saw eye to eye on and became a mutual endeavour.
The Swiss (Svajczi) cows were prized for their milk in quality and
quantity. They were not used as work animals.
The Magyar cows and calves (veal - up to 3 years of age) were generally
meat animals. Magyar cows are brown and have prominent Y shaped long
straight horns and are easy to identify.
Selected bulls of both breeds were kept as studs. The younger bull calves
were kept as steers and for veal.
So it was important to know if a farm had a Swiss or Magyar bull.
I read that at the height of the beef trade, over 100,000 animals/year were
sent to Europe under the auspices of the Turks and Royal/Transylvanian
Hungarians. It certainly gave me a different perspective about the
importance of the plains of Pannonia and why so many wanted to control it
through political, religious and economic measures.

Peter M.

On 30 January 2013 07:03, <lkocik@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
> Hi Debbie
>
>    The 1869 census is a goldmine of data for how our ancestors lived. I
> think your problem is in using it to put the family together.
>
>  Maybe it would be easier to build the family [including cousins] from
> birth/bapt and marriage records first.
>
>     For the two men in question you could search through all records for
> the time period...give and take a few years ei ther way. You can record all
> the right surnames for that time period and then use house numbers and
> godparents to help you get an idea of relationships. Also with marriage
> records you'll have maiden names and witnesses....a lot of times marriage
> witnesses will be godparents to the couple's subsequant children or
> godparent to the person being married...but it all helps to build families.
>
>     It's time consuming but when you have all that data from the time
> period you'll be able to get a good picture of the different families..You
> should be able to start seeing connections and relationships.
>
>  Then the 1869 census will help confirm and enhance what you found in the
> birth and marriage records.
>
>  This is my personal method, but like I said, it's time consuming and
> maybe someone else has a more effcient method.
>
>  My great grandfather's family shared a house with his cousin's family. I
> had the same problem as you;...two heads of household with same surname and
>  given names...and birth dates that were only a few years apart. They ended
> up as cousins.
>
>  Using only the data from the 1869 census you can only make assumptions.
>
> Good luck Debbie...
>
> Larry
>
> interesting sidenote;  why are livestock broken down into sub
> catagories...i.e. milk cows as opposed to meat cows? was it because they
> were taxed at different rates?
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "deeellessbee" deeellessbee@...>
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 11:47:47 AM
> Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which
> family
>
> Peter, thanks for your thoughts and info.  I saw that Gyorgy was a widower
> with two kids, and I figured he was a relative of some kind, sharing the
> house with Janos.  It's just that birth date that's throwing me off.  My
> first thought (before realizing they have the same birth year) was that
> they were brothers.  Then I thought, well, what are the chances of twins
> (certainly possilbe, but probable?)  So, maybe it's a cousin... but would
> cousins share a house?  Again possible... is it more probable that they
> were twins or that cousins were sharing a house?  Personally, I don't know.
>  And then there's always the issue of how accurate the birthdates are to
> begin with.
>
> So, there are things to ponder there, certainly.  Unfortunately, I have no
> idea what Janos's parents names were.  I'd have to double-check my notes,
> but I think I did find a few options for him for a birth record, but again,
> not knowing his parents' names, and the Guman name being not-uncommon, I
> have no conclusive answer yet.  I suppose I could go back and see if any of
> those parents in the possible records for Janos, also have a son Gyorgy,
> but again, with a fairly common last name and two common first names, how
> can I be sure...?  I do believe that I did not come across twins, however,
> but maybe that's something to keep an eye out for.
>
> So, with all this to think about, why is my first thought to browse
> through the other families and see if my family owning (only) one cow a
> good thing or a bad thing, lol?
>
> :)
> Debbie
>
> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech  wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > There is every possibility that it is your family.
> > If you have a look at the 1st and 2nd column headings, it gives evidence
> of
> > 2 families in the one house.
> > The first column- folyo lakas-szam - comes from the word folyo-szam or
> > 'running number' but it has lakas - 'householders' in this context. So
> it
> > says ' a running count of the householders in the house'. I do believe
> that
> > it means head-of-house - and in your case, there are two of them, Janos
> and
> > Gyorgy.
> > Column 2 says: A Lako szemelyek folyo szama - 'the inhabitants in
> running
> > order'. The running order was traditional and goes Head of House or
> Family
> > - almost always the Father, the Wife, the eldest child to the youngest
> > child, after that, the grandchildren. This is listed in the title of
> column
> > 3 as Csalad Feje (Head of Family or Household), Neje (wife), Gyermeke
> > (Children), Unokai (Grandchildren).
> > So there are 2 entries in column 1 and the name entries in column 2
> showing
> > the respective number of spouses and children for each head of family.
> > Gyorgy was a widower, so no wife, but the children are listed as per the
> > running order of each head.
> > The totals at the bottom under the double lines show exactly the numbers
> -
> > 2 families, 7 inhabitants in total comprised of 3 males and 4 females.
> >
> > As for your other question about the relationship between Gyorgy and
> Janos,
> > this archive won't give you that. However common knowledge says that if
> a
> > house is shared, it is always with a relative. Life was hard and in the
> > case of an ozvegy, he would be looking for another wife and/or in the
> > meantime living with a relative, helping out on the farm and his
> children
> > being looked after by Janos's wife.
> > This sort of thing happens even today, but in particular, my Grandfather
> > and wife lived with his father-in-law till 1942. My great aunt lives
> with
> > her daughter's family to this day after her husband died. Sometimes the
> > passage of time doesn't change much!
> > In your case though, I would try and decode the GK records for 1825 and
> > find out the relationships between Gyorgy and Janos.
> >
> > Peter M.
> >
> > On 29 January 2013 13:39, deeellessbee  wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Peter thanks for that help. Thanks especially for the "has a
> lot/parcel of
> > > land" - my translation only said "lot" and while I figured it meant he
> had
> > > some land, I wasn't quite sure. And I couldn't figure out the
> handwriting
> > > on the foldumoves - nothing was working in google translate for that
> one!
> > > Thanks! What do you think the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos
> is?
> > >
> > > After my original post, I looked again and realized that the notation
> for
> > > Marta Jr. does not look like "leany" which seems to be the regular
> notation
> > > for daughter/girl. I'm still trying to decide if the word after her
> name is
> > > something different or if the enumerator just got lazy. I do hope
> Marta is
> > > the daughter of Janos or this may not be my family.
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > > Debbie
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I would say that Gyorgy was the father of Maria and Mihaly - he was
> > > Ozvegy
> > > > - or a widower, working on the land.
> > > > All are local. Only Marta can read/write, all the rest can't.
> > > > Here is the rest as I see it:
> > > > Janos is hazas - 'married' 6th numbered column; telkes - has a lot
> > > (parcel
> > > > of land); foldmuves (foldmuveles) - 'tiller of the soil'; vagas
> Mikilos -
> > > > is the name of the village I presume, though in reverse order of the
> > > title
> > > > page.
> > > > Marta is the wife - 'neje' - and ferjes - 'has a husband'
> > > > Anna - leany 'young woman' - hajadon - unmarried
> > > > Marta - (can't read the note but I presume it means girl) -
> > > > Gyorgy - as above
> > > > Maria - leany - hajadon
> > > > Mihaly - fia - his (Gyorgy's boy)
> > > >
> > > > All seem to work the land as there is no other distinction made for
> > > > employment.
> > > >
> > > > The previous page describes the home:
> > > > They lived in number 68
> > > > Foldszint - single storey
> > > > Szoba - 1 room
> > > > Kamra - A pantry
> > > > Eloszoba - a hall or vestibule - commonly a sunroom.
> > > > Raktar - a storeroom
> > > > Csur - a barn.
> > > >
> > > > Hope that helps
> > > >
> > > > Peter M.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 29 January 2013 11:47, deeellessbee wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > **
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided
> to
> > > > > finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
> > > > > great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her
> parents
> > > Janos
> > > > > and Marta.
> > > > >
> > > > > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc.
> goes
> > > with
> > > > > her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it
> (image
> > > 139)?
> > > > > I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if
> > > there is
> > > > > any notation saying which is which anyway.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
>
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-\
CZP:1513958199
> > > > >
> > > > > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family
> in the
> > > > > house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos'
> brother.
> > > He is
> > > > > born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose
> they
> > > could
> > > > > be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are
> > > cousins
> > > > > instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
> > > > >
> > > > > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family?
> The
> > > > > town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a
> > > birth
> > > > > year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born
> in
> > > 1830,
> > > > > and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other
> info
> > > > > regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not
> given,
> > > so how
> > > > > sure can I be this is my family?
> > > > >
> > > > > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column
> > > entries, it
> > > > > would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty
> well,
> > > and
> > > > > the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate
> is
> > > the
> > > > > pits, quite frankly.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for any help!
> > > > > Debbie
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, Peter, thank you for this info.  Looks like my family had a milk cow!

Debbie

--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech  wrote:
>
> Hi Larry,
>
> The classification of bulls, cows, oxen and 'borju' - calves into Hungarian
> or Swiss was important to the economy. I got most of this info from bits
> and pieces during wider research in genealogy and so generally not set in
> stone.
>
> The beef trade between all of old Hungary and Europe from about 1560
> onwards became increasingly important. It was one aspect that both the
> Turks and the Hungarians saw eye to eye on and became a mutual endeavour.
> The Swiss (Svajczi) cows were prized for their milk in quality and
> quantity. They were not used as work animals.
> The Magyar cows and calves (veal - up to 3 years of age) were generally
> meat animals. Magyar cows are brown and have prominent Y shaped long
> straight horns and are easy to identify.
> Selected bulls of both breeds were kept as studs. The younger bull calves
> were kept as steers and for veal.
> So it was important to know if a farm had a Swiss or Magyar bull.
> I read that at the height of the beef trade, over 100,000 animals/year were
> sent to Europe under the auspices of the Turks and Royal/Transylvanian
> Hungarians. It certainly gave me a different perspective about the
> importance of the plains of Pannonia and why so many wanted to control it
> through political, religious and economic measures.
>
> Peter M.
>
> On 30 January 2013 07:03,  wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Debbie
> >
> >    The 1869 census is a goldmine of data for how our ancestors lived. I
> > think your problem is in using it to put the family together.
> >
> >  Maybe it would be easier to build the family [including cousins] from
> > birth/bapt and marriage records first.
> >
> >     For the two men in question you could search through all records for
> > the time period...give and take a few years ei ther way. You can record all
> > the right surnames for that time period and then use house numbers and
> > godparents to help you get an idea of relationships. Also with marriage
> > records you'll have maiden names and witnesses....a lot of times marriage
> > witnesses will be godparents to the couple's subsequant children or
> > godparent to the person being married...but it all helps to build families.
> >
> >     It's time consuming but when you have all that data from the time
> > period you'll be able to get a good picture of the different families..You
> > should be able to start seeing connections and relationships.
> >
> >  Then the 1869 census will help confirm and enhance what you found in the
> > birth and marriage records.
> >
> >  This is my personal method, but like I said, it's time consuming and
> > maybe someone else has a more effcient method.
> >
> >  My great grandfather's family shared a house with his cousin's family. I
> > had the same problem as you;...two heads of household with same surname and
> >  given names...and birth dates that were only a few years apart. They ended
> > up as cousins.
> >
> >  Using only the data from the 1869 census you can only make assumptions.
> >
> > Good luck Debbie...
> >
> > Larry
> >
> > interesting sidenote;  why are livestock broken down into sub
> > catagories...i.e. milk cows as opposed to meat cows? was it because they
> > were taxed at different rates?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: "deeellessbee" deeellessbee@...>
> > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 11:47:47 AM
> > Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which
> > family
> >
> > Peter, thanks for your thoughts and info.  I saw that Gyorgy was a widower
> > with two kids, and I figured he was a relative of some kind, sharing the
> > house with Janos.  It's just that birth date that's throwing me off.  My
> > first thought (before realizing they have the same birth year) was that
> > they were brothers.  Then I thought, well, what are the chances of twins
> > (certainly possilbe, but probable?)  So, maybe it's a cousin... but would
> > cousins share a house?  Again possible... is it more probable that they
> > were twins or that cousins were sharing a house?  Personally, I don't know.
> >  And then there's always the issue of how accurate the birthdates are to
> > begin with.
> >
> > So, there are things to ponder there, certainly.  Unfortunately, I have no
> > idea what Janos's parents names were.  I'd have to double-check my notes,
> > but I think I did find a few options for him for a birth record, but again,
> > not knowing his parents' names, and the Guman name being not-uncommon, I
> > have no conclusive answer yet.  I suppose I could go back and see if any of
> > those parents in the possible records for Janos, also have a son Gyorgy,
> > but again, with a fairly common last name and two common first names, how
> > can I be sure...?  I do believe that I did not come across twins, however,
> > but maybe that's something to keep an eye out for.
> >
> > So, with all this to think about, why is my first thought to browse
> > through the other families and see if my family owning (only) one cow a
> > good thing or a bad thing, lol?
> >
> > :)
> > Debbie
> >
> > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech  wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > > There is every possibility that it is your family.
> > > If you have a look at the 1st and 2nd column headings, it gives evidence
> > of
> > > 2 families in the one house.
> > > The first column- folyo lakas-szam - comes from the word folyo-szam or
> > > 'running number' but it has lakas - 'householders' in this context. So
> > it
> > > says ' a running count of the householders in the house'. I do believe
> > that
> > > it means head-of-house - and in your case, there are two of them, Janos
> > and
> > > Gyorgy.
> > > Column 2 says: A Lako szemelyek folyo szama - 'the inhabitants in
> > running
> > > order'. The running order was traditional and goes Head of House or
> > Family
> > > - almost always the Father, the Wife, the eldest child to the youngest
> > > child, after that, the grandchildren. This is listed in the title of
> > column
> > > 3 as Csalad Feje (Head of Family or Household), Neje (wife), Gyermeke
> > > (Children), Unokai (Grandchildren).
> > > So there are 2 entries in column 1 and the name entries in column 2
> > showing
> > > the respective number of spouses and children for each head of family.
> > > Gyorgy was a widower, so no wife, but the children are listed as per the
> > > running order of each head.
> > > The totals at the bottom under the double lines show exactly the numbers
> > -
> > > 2 families, 7 inhabitants in total comprised of 3 males and 4 females.
> > >
> > > As for your other question about the relationship between Gyorgy and
> > Janos,
> > > this archive won't give you that. However common knowledge says that if
> > a
> > > house is shared, it is always with a relative. Life was hard and in the
> > > case of an ozvegy, he would be looking for another wife and/or in the
> > > meantime living with a relative, helping out on the farm and his
> > children
> > > being looked after by Janos's wife.
> > > This sort of thing happens even today, but in particular, my Grandfather
> > > and wife lived with his father-in-law till 1942. My great aunt lives
> > with
> > > her daughter's family to this day after her husband died. Sometimes the
> > > passage of time doesn't change much!
> > > In your case though, I would try and decode the GK records for 1825 and
> > > find out the relationships between Gyorgy and Janos.
> > >
> > > Peter M.
> > >
> > > On 29 January 2013 13:39, deeellessbee  wrote:
> > >
> > > > **
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Peter thanks for that help. Thanks especially for the "has a
> > lot/parcel of
> > > > land" - my translation only said "lot" and while I figured it meant he
> > had
> > > > some land, I wasn't quite sure. And I couldn't figure out the
> > handwriting
> > > > on the foldumoves - nothing was working in google translate for that
> > one!
> > > > Thanks! What do you think the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos
> > is?
> > > >
> > > > After my original post, I looked again and realized that the notation
> > for
> > > > Marta Jr. does not look like "leany" which seems to be the regular
> > notation
> > > > for daughter/girl. I'm still trying to decide if the word after her
> > name is
> > > > something different or if the enumerator just got lazy. I do hope
> > Marta is
> > > > the daughter of Janos or this may not be my family.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks!
> > > > Debbie
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I would say that Gyorgy was the father of Maria and Mihaly - he was
> > > > Ozvegy
> > > > > - or a widower, working on the land.
> > > > > All are local. Only Marta can read/write, all the rest can't.
> > > > > Here is the rest as I see it:
> > > > > Janos is hazas - 'married' 6th numbered column; telkes - has a lot
> > > > (parcel
> > > > > of land); foldmuves (foldmuveles) - 'tiller of the soil'; vagas
> > Mikilos -
> > > > > is the name of the village I presume, though in reverse order of the
> > > > title
> > > > > page.
> > > > > Marta is the wife - 'neje' - and ferjes - 'has a husband'
> > > > > Anna - leany 'young woman' - hajadon - unmarried
> > > > > Marta - (can't read the note but I presume it means girl) -
> > > > > Gyorgy - as above
> > > > > Maria - leany - hajadon
> > > > > Mihaly - fia - his (Gyorgy's boy)
> > > > >
> > > > > All seem to work the land as there is no other distinction made for
> > > > > employment.
> > > > >
> > > > > The previous page describes the home:
> > > > > They lived in number 68
> > > > > Foldszint - single storey
> > > > > Szoba - 1 room
> > > > > Kamra - A pantry
> > > > > Eloszoba - a hall or vestibule - commonly a sunroom.
> > > > > Raktar - a storeroom
> > > > > Csur - a barn.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hope that helps
> > > > >
> > > > > Peter M.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 29 January 2013 11:47, deeellessbee wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > **
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided
> > to
> > > > > > finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
> > > > > > great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her
> > parents
> > > > Janos
> > > > > > and Marta.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc.
> > goes
> > > > with
> > > > > > her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it
> > (image
> > > > 139)?
> > > > > > I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if
> > > > there is
> > > > > > any notation saying which is which anyway.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> >
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-\
CZP:1513958199
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family
> > in the
> > > > > > house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos'
> > brother.
> > > > He is
> > > > > > born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose
> > they
> > > > could
> > > > > > be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are
> > > > cousins
> > > > > > instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family?
> > The
> > > > > > town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a
> > > > birth
> > > > > > year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born
> > in
> > > > 1830,
> > > > > > and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other
> > info
> > > > > > regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not
> > given,
> > > > so how
> > > > > > sure can I be this is my family?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column
> > > > entries, it
> > > > > > would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty
> > well,
> > > > and
> > > > > > the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate
> > is
> > > > the
> > > > > > pits, quite frankly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you for any help!
> > > > > > Debbie
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

    I have given up trying to find information on my gg-grandmother.  Can anyone
suggest a good genealogist in the Spis region?


I know a lot about my gg-grandmother but I don't know where she was born or
where she was married.   After looking at films and visiting the area several
times with no luck, I am ready to turn it over to a Pro.

Bob Pollak


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Why don't you give us her name & details. Who knows? Someone may know something.
It's worth a shot. Dumb luck kicks in every now and then!
Jan

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 31, 2013, at 6:50 PM, Robert Pollak <rjp4053@...> wrote:

>     I have given up trying to find information on my gg-grandmother.  Can
anyone suggest a good genealogist in the Spis region?
>
> I know a lot about my gg-grandmother but I don't know where she was born or
where she was married.   After looking at films and visiting the area several
times with no luck, I am ready to turn it over to a Pro.
>
> Bob Pollak
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob,
     Do you have any idea where in the Spis region that you would concentrate the
search?
     I have used a certified genealogist out of Presov, Michal Razus,
http://slovak-ancestry.com/.
     My ancestral village, Hromos/Gromos was in the Spis county of Hungary. The
Levoca and Presov Archives covers most of Spis. Which archive depends on where
in Spis your search will be.

From: Robert Pollak
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 4:50 PM
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [S-R] Genealogists


     I have given up trying to find information on my gg-grandmother.  Can anyone
suggest a good genealogist in the Spis region?

I know a lot about my gg-grandmother but I don't know where she was born or
where she was married.   After looking at films and visiting the area several
times with no luck, I am ready to turn it over to a Pro.

Bob Pollak

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My gg-grandmother's name (found on the birth records of her children and on her
death record) was Anna Petrustsak.    The first record of her is the birth of
her first child in Spisska Nova Ves in 1837.   She had 10 children all born in
Spisska Nova Ves.  Her husband, Samuel Pollak was born in 1815 in SPisske
Podhradie and he was Evangelical (Anna was Roman Catholic).  There is no record
of her marriage (probably in 1835 or 1836)in either religion in Spisska Nova Ves
or SPisske Podhradie.

Anna's husband died in 1877 and Anna died in 1900.   Her death record states
that she came from what is now Vlkova and her father came from Vlkovce. 
Neither place showed a Petrustsak being born in the mid 1810's

I have looked (on-line) through most of the records in the Spis area with no
luck.

The birth records of all of her children and the death record of her husband are
on-line.  I photographed the death record which is in Hungarian.  A friend had
translated it for me.  The only thing that was not translatable was her
occupation.  It is not in any Hungarian dictionary but my friend told me it was
a person that was a capitalist who had enough money to invest and live off of
the profits.


Any suggestions?
Bob Pollak



________________________________
  From: Jan Ammann <janammann@...>
To: "SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com" <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com" <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: [S-R] Genealogists


 
Why don't you give us her name & details. Who knows? Someone may know something.
It's worth a shot. Dumb luck kicks in every now and then!
Jan

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 31, 2013, at 6:50 PM, Robert Pollak rjp4053@...> wrote:

>     I have given up trying to find information on my gg-grandmother.  Can
anyone suggest a good genealogist in the Spis region?
>
> I know a lot about my gg-grandmother but I don't know where she was born or
where she was married.   After looking at films and visiting the area several
times with no luck, I am ready to turn it over to a Pro.
>
> Bob Pollak
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Robert,
Not wanting to waste your time or efforts, but I want to clarify how early
you have gone back searching for Anna's father in Vlkovce prior to 'the mid
1810's'? On that, were there any Petrustsak (Petruscsak-Petrusczak) at all
in the village? That would help determine if the family's home town was
Vlkovce or not.
Another consideration is that Anna married an Evangelical. There is a
tradition of sorts that still occurs in some places, that the female
children are baptised Catholic, while the males are baptised Evangelical
(Calvanist/Lutheran) in mixed marriages. This came about as a reaction to
the counter-reformation. Anna's father may of been born a Lutheran and
married a Catholic.
Any results looking for Anna's mother?
If you are satisfied that there's nothing much more you can do, then a
professional is a good idea.

Peter M.



On 3 February 2013 06:39, Robert Pollak <rjp4053@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> My gg-grandmother's name (found on the birth records of her children and
> on her death record) was Anna Petrustsak.    The first record of her is the
> birth of her first child in Spisska Nova Ves in 1837.   She had 10 children
> all born in Spisska Nova Ves.  Her husband, Samuel Pollak was born in 1815
> in SPisske Podhradie and he was Evangelical (Anna was Roman Catholic).
> There is no record of her marriage (probably in 1835 or 1836)in either
> religion in Spisska Nova Ves or SPisske Podhradie.
>
> Anna's husband died in 1877 and Anna died in 1900.   Her death record
> states that she came from what is now Vlkova and her father came from
> Vlkovce.  Neither place showed a Petrustsak being born in the mid 1810's
>
> I have looked (on-line) through most of the records in the Spis area with
> no luck.
>
> The birth records of all of her children and the death record of her
> husband are on-line.  I photographed the death record which is in
> Hungarian.  A friend had translated it for me.  The only thing that was not
> translatable was her occupation.  It is not in any Hungarian dictionary but
> my friend told me it was a person that was a capitalist who had enough
> money to invest and live off of the profits.
>
> Any suggestions?
> Bob Pollak
>
> ________________________________
> From: Jan Ammann janammann@...>
> To: "SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com" SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
> Cc: "SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com" SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 7:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [S-R] Genealogists
>
>
>
>
> Why don't you give us her name & details. Who knows? Someone may know
> something. It's worth a shot. Dumb luck kicks in every now and then!
> Jan
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 31, 2013, at 6:50 PM, Robert Pollak rjp4053@...> wrote:
>
> > I have given up trying to find information on my gg-grandmother. Can
> anyone suggest a good genealogist in the Spis region?
> >
> > I know a lot about my gg-grandmother but I don't know where she was born
> or where she was married. After looking at films and visiting the area
> several times with no luck, I am ready to turn it over to a Pro.
> >
> > Bob Pollak
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob, I emailed you personally, but perhaps you didn't get it.  I  show only
9 children and have a marriage date of: 7 NOV 1846.

Is the ancestry tree "ivilcount4U" you?  If so, I also have a  different
marriage record for Anna Pollak (Anna Petrustsak's daughter).   Perhaps we
should take that off-line?   _takukuk@..._ (mailto:takukuk@...)  is my
email address.   Regards, Tom Kukuk


In a message dated 2/2/2013 1:39:30 P.M. Central Standard Time,
rjp4053@... writes:




My gg-grandmother's name (found on the birth records of her children and on
  her death record) was Anna Petrustsak.    The first record of  her is the
birth of her first child in Spisska Nova Ves in 1837.    She had 10 children
all born in Spisska Nova Ves.  Her husband, Samuel  Pollak was born in 1815
in SPisske Podhradie and he was Evangelical (Anna was  Roman Catholic).
There is no record of her marriage (probably in 1835 or  1836)in either
religion in Spisska Nova Ves or SPisske  Podhradie.

Anna's husband died in 1877 and Anna died in  1900.   Her death record
states that she came from what is now  Vlkova and her father came from Vlkovce.
Neither place showed a  Petrustsak being born in the mid 1810's

I have looked (on-line) through  most of the records in the Spis area with
no luck.

The birth records of  all of her children and the death record of her
husband are on-line.  I  photographed the death record which is in Hungarian.  A
friend had  translated it for me.  The only thing that was not translatable
was her  occupation.  It is not in any Hungarian dictionary but my friend
told me  it was a person that was a capitalist who had enough money to invest
and live  off of the profits.

Any suggestions?
Bob  Pollak

________________________________
From: Jan Ammann _janammann@..._ (mailto:janammann@...)
>
To:  "_SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
"  _SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com) >
Cc: "_SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com) "
  _SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com) >
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: [S-R]  Genealogists



Why don't you give us her name &  details. Who knows? Someone may know
something. It's worth a shot. Dumb luck  kicks in every now and then!
Jan

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan  31, 2013, at 6:50 PM, Robert Pollak _rjp4053@..._
(mailto:rjp4053@...) > wrote:

>  I have given up trying to find information on my gg-grandmother. Can
anyone  suggest a good genealogist in the Spis region?
>
> I know a lot  about my gg-grandmother but I don't know where she was born
or where she was  married. After looking at films and visiting the area
several times with no  luck, I am ready to turn it over to a Pro.
>
> Bob Pollak
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been  removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been  removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Have you checked records of Szepes-Ofalu?  I believe that's the earlier name of
Spisska Nova Ves.

Sue

-----Original Message-----
From: "Robert Pollak" <rjp4053@...>
Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2013 2:39pm
To: "SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com" <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [S-R] Genealogists






My gg-grandmother's name (found on the birth records of her children and on her
death record) was Anna Petrustsak.    The first record of her is the birth of
her first child in Spisska Nova Ves in 1837.   She had 10 children all born in
Spisska Nova Ves.  Her husband, Samuel Pollak was born in 1815 in SPisske
Podhradie and he was Evangelical (Anna was Roman Catholic).  There is no record
of her marriage (probably in 1835 or 1836)in either religion in Spisska Nova Ves
or SPisske Podhradie.

  Anna's husband died in 1877 and Anna died in 1900.   Her death record states
that she came from what is now Vlkova and her father came from Vlkovce.  Neither
place showed a Petrustsak being born in the mid 1810's

  I have looked (on-line) through most of the records in the Spis area with no
luck.

  The birth records of all of her children and the death record of her husband
are on-line.  I photographed the death record which is in Hungarian.  A friend
had translated it for me.  The only thing that was not translatable was her
occupation.  It is not in any Hungarian dictionary but my friend told me it was
a person that was a capitalist who had enough money to invest and live off of
the profits.

  Any suggestions?
  Bob Pollak

  ________________________________
  From: Jan Ammann [mailto:janammann%40sbcglobal.net] janammann@...>
  To: "[mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com] SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com"
[mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com] SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
  Cc: "[mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com] SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com"
[mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com] SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 7:16 PM
  Subject: Re: [S-R] Genealogists



  Why don't you give us her name & details. Who knows? Someone may know
something. It's worth a shot. Dumb luck kicks in every now and then!
  Jan

  Sent from my iPhone

  On Jan 31, 2013, at 6:50 PM, Robert Pollak [mailto:rjp4053%40yahoo.com]
rjp4053@...> wrote:

  >     I have given up trying to find information on my gg-grandmother.  Can
anyone suggest a good genealogist in the Spis region?
  >
  > I know a lot about my gg-grandmother but I don't know where she was born or
where she was married.   After looking at films and visiting the area several
times with no luck, I am ready to turn it over to a Pro.
  >
  > Bob Pollak
  >
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >
  >

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Peter, thank you for the spelling variations.

Bob: on Anna Petrustsak's death record, her father's home town appears to
be Kis-Kun, so just on a hunch I found this very similar spelling:  If that
home town on her death record is Kiskuncfalva, then that is Vlkovce that
you and  others have for her birthplace.

Hope that helps.

Tom


In a message dated 2/2/2013 2:22:00 P.M. Central Standard Time,
htcstech@... writes:




Hello Robert,
Not wanting to waste your time or efforts, but I want to  clarify how early
you have gone back searching for Anna's father in Vlkovce  prior to 'the mid
1810's'? On that, were there any Petrustsak  (Petruscsak-Petrusczak) at all
in the village? That would help determine if  the family's home town was
Vlkovce or not.
Another consideration is that  Anna married an Evangelical. There is a
tradition of sorts that still  occurs in some places, that the female
children are baptised Catholic,  while the males are baptised Evangelical
(Calvanist/Lutheran) in mixed  marriages. This came about as a reaction to
the counter-reformation. Anna's  father may of been born a Lutheran and
married a Catholic.
Any results  looking for Anna's mother?
If you are satisfied that there's nothing much  more you can do, then a
professional is a good idea.

Peter  M.

On 3 February 2013 06:39, Robert Pollak _rjp4053@..._
(mailto:rjp4053@...) > wrote:

>  **
>
>
> My gg-grandmother's name (found on the birth  records of her children and
> on her death record) was Anna Petrustsak.  The first record of her is the
> birth of her first child in Spisska  Nova Ves in 1837. She had 10 children
> all born in Spisska Nova Ves.  Her husband, Samuel Pollak was born in 1815
> in SPisske Podhradie and  he was Evangelical (Anna was Roman Catholic).
> There is no record of  her marriage (probably in 1835 or 1836)in either
> religion in Spisska  Nova Ves or SPisske Podhradie.
>
> Anna's husband died in 1877 and  Anna died in 1900. Her death record
> states that she came from what is  now Vlkova and her father came from
> Vlkovce. Neither place showed a  Petrustsak being born in the mid 1810's
>
> I have looked  (on-line) through most of the records in the Spis area with
> no  luck.
>
> The birth records of all of her children and the death  record of her
> husband are on-line. I photographed the death record  which is in
> Hungarian. A friend had translated it for me. The only  thing that was not
> translatable was her occupation. It is not in any  Hungarian dictionary
but
> my friend told me it was a person that was a  capitalist who had enough
> money to invest and live off of the  profits.
>
> Any suggestions?
> Bob Pollak
>
>  ________________________________
> From: Jan Ammann _janammann@..._ (mail
to:janammann@...) >
>  To: "_SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com) _SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com) >
>  Cc: "_SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com) _SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com) >
>  Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 7:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [S-R]  Genealogists
>
>
>
>
> Why don't you give us her  name & details. Who knows? Someone may know
> something. It's worth  a shot. Dumb luck kicks in every now and then!
> Jan
>
>  Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 31, 2013, at 6:50 PM, Robert Pollak  _rjp4053@..._
(mailto:rjp4053@...) >  wrote:
>
> > I have given up trying to find information on my  gg-grandmother. Can
> anyone suggest a good genealogist in the Spis  region?
> >
> > I know a lot about my gg-grandmother but I  don't know where she was
born
> or where she was married. After looking  at films and visiting the area
> several times with no luck, I am ready  to turn it over to a Pro.
> >
> > Bob Pollak
>  >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been  removed]
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this  message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message  have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this  message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Hungarian/Slovak/German city names plus all the name changes confuses
the devil out of me, but I looked up Szepes-Ofalu and found this on WIKI:
Szepesófalu ( _Slovak _ (http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szlovák_nyelv) Spisska
Stara Ves , _German _ (http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Német_nyelv) Altendorf ,
_Polish _ (http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lengyel_nyelv) Spiska Stara Wies ,
_Latin _ (http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_nyelv) Villa Antiqua) city _in
Slovakia_ (http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szlovákia)  in _Prešov Region _
(http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eperjesi_kerület) _Késmárki gait_
(http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Késmárki_járás)  . Tarhegy  included. _2,011_
(http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011)  in 2264 Slovakia had a  population of 2,055
and is
located north of POPRAD (Szepes-Szombat) and 50 miles  from SNV or Iglo.

Sue, did I get that wrong?


In a message dated 2/2/2013 3:41:41 P.M. Central Standard Time,
martin@... writes:





Have you checked records of Szepes-Ofalu? I believe that's the earlier
name of Spisska Nova Ves.

Sue

-----Original  Message-----
From: "Robert Pollak" _rjp4053@..._ (mailto:rjp4053@...) >
Sent: Saturday,  February 2, 2013 2:39pm
To: "_SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com) "
  _SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com) >
Subject:  Re: [S-R] Genealogists

My gg-grandmother's name (found on the birth  records of her children and
on her death record) was Anna Petrustsak. The  first record of her is the
birth of her first child in Spisska Nova Ves in  1837. She had 10 children all
born in Spisska Nova Ves. Her husband, Samuel  Pollak was born in 1815 in
SPisske Podhradie and he was Evangelical (Anna was  Roman Catholic). There is
no record of her marriage (probably in 1835 or  1836)in either religion in
Spisska Nova Ves or SPisske  Podhradie.

Anna's husband died in 1877 and Anna died in 1900. Her death  record states
that she came from what is now Vlkova and her father came from  Vlkovce.
Neither place showed a Petrustsak being born in the mid  1810's

I have looked (on-line) through most of the records in the Spis  area with
no luck.

The birth records of all of her children and the  death record of her
husband are on-line. I photographed the death record which  is in Hungarian. A
friend had translated it for me. The only thing that was  not translatable was
her occupation. It is not in any Hungarian dictionary but  my friend told
me it was a person that was a capitalist who had enough money  to invest and
live off of the profits.

Any suggestions?
Bob  Pollak

________________________________
From: Jan Ammann  [mailto:janammann%40sbcglobal.net] _janammann@
sbcglobal.net_ (mailto:janammann@...) >
To:  "[mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com]
_SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com) "
[mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com] _SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
>
Cc: "[mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com] _SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com) "
[mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com] _SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com) >

Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: [S-R]  Genealogists

Why don't you give us her name & details. Who knows?  Someone may know
something. It's worth a shot. Dumb luck kicks in every now  and then!
Jan

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 31, 2013, at 6:50  PM, Robert Pollak [mailto:rjp4053%40yahoo.com]
_rjp4053@..._ (mailto:rjp4053@...) > wrote:

>  I have given up trying to find information on my gg-grandmother. Can
anyone  suggest a good genealogist in the Spis region?
>
> I know a lot  about my gg-grandmother but I don't know where she was born
or where she was  married. After looking at films and visiting the area
several times with no  luck, I am ready to turn it over to a Pro.
>
> Bob Pollak
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been  removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been  removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been  removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No, you got it right.  I mixed up Spisska Nova Ves and Spisska Stara Ves.  Sorry
about that!

Sue

-----Original Message-----
From: takukuk@...
Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2013 6:26pm
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [S-R] Genealogists






The Hungarian/Slovak/German city names plus all the name changes confuses
  the devil out of me, but I looked up Szepes-Ofalu and found this on WIKI:
  Szepesófalu ( _Slovak _ ([http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szlov]
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szlovák_nyelv) Spisska
  Stara Ves , _German _ ([http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/N]
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Német_nyelv) Altendorf ,
  _Polish _ ([http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lengyel_nyelv]
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lengyel_nyelv) Spiska Stara Wies ,
  _Latin _ ([http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_nyelv]
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_nyelv) Villa Antiqua) city _in
  Slovakia_ ([http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szlov]
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szlovákia)  in _Prešov Region _
  ([http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eperjesi_ker]
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eperjesi_kerület) _Késmárki gait_
  ([http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/K]
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Késmárki_járás)  . Tarhegy  included. _2,011_
  ([http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011] http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011)  in
2264 Slovakia had a  population of 2,055 and is
  located north of POPRAD (Szepes-Szombat) and 50 miles  from SNV or Iglo.

  Sue, did I get that wrong?


  In a message dated 2/2/2013 3:41:41 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[mailto:martin%40skmassociates.net] martin@... writes:





  Have you checked records of Szepes-Ofalu? I believe that's the earlier
  name of Spisska Nova Ves.

  Sue

  -----Original  Message-----
  From: "Robert Pollak" [mailto:_rjp4053%40yahoo.com] _rjp4053@..._
(mailto:[mailto:rjp4053%40yahoo.com] rjp4053@...) >
  Sent: Saturday,  February 2, 2013 2:39pm
  To: "[mailto:_SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com] _SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:[mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com] SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com) "
[mailto:_SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com] _SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:[mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com] SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com) >
  Subject:  Re: [S-R] Genealogists

  My gg-grandmother's name (found on the birth  records of her children and
  on her death record) was Anna Petrustsak. The  first record of her is the
  birth of her first child in Spisska Nova Ves in  1837. She had 10 children all
  born in Spisska Nova Ves. Her husband, Samuel  Pollak was born in 1815 in
  SPisske Podhradie and he was Evangelical (Anna was  Roman Catholic). There is
  no record of her marriage (probably in 1835 or  1836)in either religion in
  Spisska Nova Ves or SPisske  Podhradie.

  Anna's husband died in 1877 and Anna died in 1900. Her death  record states
  that she came from what is now Vlkova and her father came from  Vlkovce.
  Neither place showed a Petrustsak being born in the mid  1810's

  I have looked (on-line) through most of the records in the Spis  area with
  no luck.

  The birth records of all of her children and the  death record of her
  husband are on-line. I photographed the death record which  is in Hungarian. A
  friend had translated it for me. The only thing that was  not translatable was
  her occupation. It is not in any Hungarian dictionary but  my friend told
  me it was a person that was a capitalist who had enough money  to invest and
  live off of the profits.

  Any suggestions?
  Bob  Pollak

  ________________________________
  From: Jan Ammann  [mailto:janammann%40sbcglobal.net] _janammann@
  sbcglobal.net_ (mailto:[mailto:janammann%40sbcglobal.net]
janammann@...) >
  To:  "[mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com]
[mailto:_SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com] _SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:[mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com] SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com) "
  [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com]
[mailto:_SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com] _SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:[mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com] SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com)
  >
  Cc: "[mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com]
[mailto:_SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com] _SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com_
  (mailto:[mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com] SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com) "
  [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com]
[mailto:_SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com] _SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com_
(mailto:[mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com] SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com) >

  Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 7:16 PM
  Subject: Re: [S-R]  Genealogists

  Why don't you give us her name & details. Who knows?  Someone may know
  something. It's worth a shot. Dumb luck kicks in every now  and then!
  Jan

  Sent from my iPhone

  On Jan 31, 2013, at 6:50  PM, Robert Pollak [mailto:rjp4053%40yahoo.com]
[mailto:_rjp4053%40yahoo.com] _rjp4053@..._
(mailto:[mailto:rjp4053%40yahoo.com] rjp4053@...) > wrote:

  >  I have given up trying to find information on my gg-grandmother. Can
  anyone  suggest a good genealogist in the Spis region?
  >
  > I know a lot  about my gg-grandmother but I don't know where she was born
  or where she was  married. After looking at films and visiting the area
  several times with no  luck, I am ready to turn it over to a Pro.
  >
  > Bob Pollak
  >
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >
  >

  [Non-text portions of this message have been  removed]

  [Non-text portions of this message have been  removed]

  [Non-text portions of this message have been  removed]






  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

what do i have to do, and where do i look for information on the church
records that they put on ancestry.  step by step if possible.  its  been so
long since i searched for family records  forgot how to and then  find out
they were inputed by ancestry.   can the records be obtained  from the old way.
if so how do i do that.  i know its been a long  time.   thanks for any help

bob magac

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob,

If you click  "Search"  on Ancestry a drop down box will allow you to select the
"Card Catalog" Click on your choosen subject and enter the search field as you
would from the main page....

I am not sure what is meant by the old way? Where and who are you searching for?

Dennis

--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, hmsbob@... wrote:
>
> what do i have to do, and where do i look for information on the church
> records that they put on ancestry.  step by step if possible.  its  been so
> long since i searched for family records  forgot how to and then  find out
> they were inputed by ancestry.   can the records be obtained  from the old
way.
> if so how do i do that.  i know its been a long  time.   thanks for any help
>
> bob magac
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Group,

a fellow contacted me through S-R in reference to my surname list from the
village of Patakos.

daronk2003 is his member name and although he is not a member of this group.

Should he be reading this, your e-mail must be set accordingly so one could
reply.....

Sorry this is off-subject,

Dennis

Hello all.  After a year of some fairly intense research and a lot of confusion,
I am reaching out for assistance.  The subject of the research is Andras
Hajducsek from Saca, a village a short distance south / southwest of Kosice. 
The surname was not a popular one in Saca or the neighboring villages of Mala
Ida and Pol'ov so I do not believe that there was more than one adult Andras
Hajducsek of the same approximate age within my window of research.  Searching
LDS records from Roman Catholic parishes in the area, I have only been able to
locate marriage and death records for Andras.  The marriage record from
1/28/1846 shows a 24 year old groom and his 20 year old bride Anna Krisztianko
from Saca.  This places his year of birth at 1821 or 1822.  His death record on
1/24/1881 shows his widow Anna Krisztanko and lists his age at 63.  This places
his YOB at 1817 or 1818.  I have not been able to locate his baptismal record
despite searching RC records in several area villages across all years 1815 –
1825.

My first thought is that Andras Hajducsek and family may have migrated from
another village but the surname, as far as I can tell, appears in the area as
early as 1785 in Pol'ov.  Still, I cannot document his birth and parentage.

I am worried that this research is being complicated by aliases.  Andras and
Anna had a son (Andras) on 8/27/1847 in Saca.  The name of the father was
recorded as Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop.  This connection to the
Skop surname is further complicated by a possible relative from the late 1700's
whose name was recorded as Mathias Skop, alias Kuhar vel (I think it is "vel")
Hajducsek on the record from 5/14/1795 that I have linked to:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22646-26414-74?cc=1554443&wc=M9MJ-\
R7W:n1744020469

I have always been confused by the use of the alias in terms of which is the old
name and which carries forward, but the apparent use of three surnames has
created a nightmare.  I have never seen three surnames recorded for 1 person and
cannot begin to make sense of it.

Since I don't know that Mathias and Andras were related, I am focusing on
establishing the Hajducsek Skop connection.  Does Hajducsek Andras maskep
(otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been dropped in favor of Hajducsek going
forward?  Might he have been born simply as Andras Skop?  Or might the use of
Hajducsek have begun in previous generations?

Can anyone explain Mathias and his alias madness???

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you!

Eric Hajducsek

Go back to your LDS records and look  for Skop and Kuhar surnamed persons from
1810 to 1829.  Look for Hajducsek for 1810-1815 and 1825-1829. 



>________________________________
> From: tkejuice1208 <tkejuice1208@...>
>To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Monday, February 4, 2013 1:16 PM
>Subject: [S-R] Alias Confusion (3 names)
>
>
> 
>Hello all.  After a year of some fairly intense research and a lot of
confusion, I am reaching out for assistance.  The subject of the research is
Andras Hajducsek from Saca, a village a short distance south / southwest of
Kosice.  The surname was not a popular one in Saca or the neighboring villages
of Mala Ida and Pol'ov so I do not believe that there was more than one adult
Andras Hajducsek of the same approximate age within my window of research. 
Searching LDS records from Roman Catholic parishes in the area, I have only been
able to locate marriage and death records for Andras.  The marriage record from
1/28/1846 shows a 24 year old groom and his 20 year old bride Anna Krisztianko
from Saca.  This places his year of birth at 1821 or 1822.  His death record on
1/24/1881 shows his widow Anna Krisztanko and lists his age at 63.  This places
his YOB at 1817 or 1818.  I have not been able to locate his baptismal record
despite searching RC records in
  several area villages across all years 1815 – 1825.
>
>My first thought is that Andras Hajducsek and family may have migrated from
another village but the surname, as far as I can tell, appears in the area as
early as 1785 in Pol'ov.  Still, I cannot document his birth and parentage.
>
>I am worried that this research is being complicated by aliases.  Andras and
Anna had a son (Andras) on 8/27/1847 in Saca.  The name of the father was
recorded as Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop.  This connection to the
Skop surname is further complicated by a possible relative from the late 1700's
whose name was recorded as Mathias Skop, alias Kuhar vel (I think it is "vel")
Hajducsek on the record from 5/14/1795 that I have linked to:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22646-26414-74?cc=1554443&wc=M9MJ-\
R7W:n1744020469
>
>I have always been confused by the use of the alias in terms of which is the
old name and which carries forward, but the apparent use of three surnames has
created a nightmare.  I have never seen three surnames recorded for 1 person and
cannot begin to make sense of it.
>
>Since I don't know that Mathias and Andras were related, I am focusing on
establishing the Hajducsek Skop connection.  Does Hajducsek Andras maskep
(otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been dropped in favor of Hajducsek going
forward?  Might he have been born simply as Andras Skop?  Or might the use of
Hajducsek have begun in previous generations?
>
>Can anyone explain Mathias and his alias madness???
>
>Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Thank you!
>
>Eric Hajducsek
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Eric,

"Does Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been
dropped in favor of Hajducsek going forward? Might he have been born simply
as Andras Skop? Or might the use of Hajducsek have begun in previous
generations?"

The 'vel' in the 1795 record is Latin and translates to 'or' but also has a
meaning 'in particular'. So the priest at the time recorded the original
family name as originally 'Hajducsek'. The 1847 record shows that 'Skop'
and 'Hajducsek' were still linked, but no mention of 'Kuhar'. This shows
that there is some consistency within the records, at least as far as the
priest(s)/scribes were consistent. The 'Hajducsek' name appearing as early
as 1785 in the nearby village of Pol'ov cements that name as the original.
I'm presuming that there was no 'Skop' alias in that record?
So we can't say that one name took over the other at this stage, but the
family wanted to be known by both names, so you need to follow the Skop and
Hajducsek names from at least 1795 onwards.

Joannes, son of Mathias, born in June 14th 1795 would of been 23 at the
time of Andras's birth. Andras could be Joannes's son, or brother.
As for Mathias's alias madness, I'll email you directly on possibilities.

Peter M.

On 5 February 2013 06:16, tkejuice1208 <tkejuice1208@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hello all. After a year of some fairly intense research and a lot of
> confusion, I am reaching out for assistance. The subject of the research is
> Andras Hajducsek from Saca, a village a short distance south / southwest of
> Kosice. The surname was not a popular one in Saca or the neighboring
> villages of Mala Ida and Pol'ov so I do not believe that there was more
> than one adult Andras Hajducsek of the same approximate age within my
> window of research. Searching LDS records from Roman Catholic parishes in
> the area, I have only been able to locate marriage and death records for
> Andras. The marriage record from 1/28/1846 shows a 24 year old groom and
> his 20 year old bride Anna Krisztianko from Saca. This places his year of
> birth at 1821 or 1822. His death record on 1/24/1881 shows his widow Anna
> Krisztanko and lists his age at 63. This places his YOB at 1817 or 1818. I
> have not been able to locate his baptismal record despite searching RC
> records in several area villages across all years 1815 – 1825.
>
> My first thought is that Andras Hajducsek and family may have migrated
> from another village but the surname, as far as I can tell, appears in the
> area as early as 1785 in Pol'ov. Still, I cannot document his birth and
> parentage.
>
> I am worried that this research is being complicated by aliases. Andras
> and Anna had a son (Andras) on 8/27/1847 in Saca. The name of the father
> was recorded as Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop. This connection
> to the Skop surname is further complicated by a possible relative from the
> late 1700's whose name was recorded as Mathias Skop, alias Kuhar vel (I
> think it is "vel") Hajducsek on the record from 5/14/1795 that I have
> linked to:
>
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22646-26414-74?cc=1554443&wc=M9MJ-\
R7W:n1744020469
>
> I have always been confused by the use of the alias in terms of which is
> the old name and which carries forward, but the apparent use of three
> surnames has created a nightmare. I have never seen three surnames recorded
> for 1 person and cannot begin to make sense of it.
>
> Since I don't know that Mathias and Andras were related, I am focusing on
> establishing the Hajducsek Skop connection. Does Hajducsek Andras maskep
> (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been dropped in favor of Hajducsek
> going forward? Might he have been born simply as Andras Skop? Or might the
> use of Hajducsek have begun in previous generations?
>
> Can anyone explain Mathias and his alias madness???
>
> Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thank you!
>
> Eric Hajducsek
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Peter, if it's something that can be shared, I too would be interested in
hearing your thoughts on Matthias' "alias madness".  While I have the basics of
(the "why" of) the alias name down, it still sometime confuses me and I still
don't know which name was which in my family.  So threads about aliases always
catch my eye and I am interested in learning as much as I can about them.

Thanks,
Debbie

--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech  wrote:
>
> Hello Eric,
>
> "Does Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been
> dropped in favor of Hajducsek going forward? Might he have been born simply
> as Andras Skop? Or might the use of Hajducsek have begun in previous
> generations?"
>
> The 'vel' in the 1795 record is Latin and translates to 'or' but also has a
> meaning 'in particular'. So the priest at the time recorded the original
> family name as originally 'Hajducsek'. The 1847 record shows that 'Skop'
> and 'Hajducsek' were still linked, but no mention of 'Kuhar'. This shows
> that there is some consistency within the records, at least as far as the
> priest(s)/scribes were consistent. The 'Hajducsek' name appearing as early
> as 1785 in the nearby village of Pol'ov cements that name as the original.
> I'm presuming that there was no 'Skop' alias in that record?
> So we can't say that one name took over the other at this stage, but the
> family wanted to be known by both names, so you need to follow the Skop and
> Hajducsek names from at least 1795 onwards.
>
> Joannes, son of Mathias, born in June 14th 1795 would of been 23 at the
> time of Andras's birth. Andras could be Joannes's son, or brother.
> As for Mathias's alias madness, I'll email you directly on possibilities.
>
> Peter M.
>
> On 5 February 2013 06:16, tkejuice1208  wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Hello all. After a year of some fairly intense research and a lot of
> > confusion, I am reaching out for assistance. The subject of the research is
> > Andras Hajducsek from Saca, a village a short distance south / southwest of
> > Kosice. The surname was not a popular one in Saca or the neighboring
> > villages of Mala Ida and Pol'ov so I do not believe that there was more
> > than one adult Andras Hajducsek of the same approximate age within my
> > window of research. Searching LDS records from Roman Catholic parishes in
> > the area, I have only been able to locate marriage and death records for
> > Andras. The marriage record from 1/28/1846 shows a 24 year old groom and
> > his 20 year old bride Anna Krisztianko from Saca. This places his year of
> > birth at 1821 or 1822. His death record on 1/24/1881 shows his widow Anna
> > Krisztanko and lists his age at 63. This places his YOB at 1817 or 1818. I
> > have not been able to locate his baptismal record despite searching RC
> > records in several area villages across all years 1815 â€" 1825.
> >
> > My first thought is that Andras Hajducsek and family may have migrated
> > from another village but the surname, as far as I can tell, appears in the
> > area as early as 1785 in Pol'ov. Still, I cannot document his birth and
> > parentage.
> >
> > I am worried that this research is being complicated by aliases. Andras
> > and Anna had a son (Andras) on 8/27/1847 in Saca. The name of the father
> > was recorded as Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop. This connection
> > to the Skop surname is further complicated by a possible relative from the
> > late 1700's whose name was recorded as Mathias Skop, alias Kuhar vel (I
> > think it is "vel") Hajducsek on the record from 5/14/1795 that I have
> > linked to:
> >
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22646-26414-74?cc=1554443&wc=M9MJ-\
R7W:n1744020469
> >
> > I have always been confused by the use of the alias in terms of which is
> > the old name and which carries forward, but the apparent use of three
> > surnames has created a nightmare. I have never seen three surnames recorded
> > for 1 person and cannot begin to make sense of it.
> >
> > Since I don't know that Mathias and Andras were related, I am focusing on
> > establishing the Hajducsek Skop connection. Does Hajducsek Andras maskep
> > (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been dropped in favor of Hajducsek
> > going forward? Might he have been born simply as Andras Skop? Or might the
> > use of Hajducsek have begun in previous generations?
> >
> > Can anyone explain Mathias and his alias madness???
> >
> > Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
> >
> > Thank you!
> >
> > Eric Hajducsek
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Peter & Eric,
Careful here translating the Latin.

The text says that 'this day was baptized Joannes the son of Mathias Skop, also
known as Kuhar or (more often) Hajducsek.'

So the priest is recording the family name as Skop, but also indicating they
using two alias names.  The vel here is indeterminate and probably just means
'or' but it does not indicate a name preference, and certainly not the primary
name, which is Skop.

Curt B.

--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech  wrote:
>
> Hello Eric,
>
> "Does Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been
> dropped in favor of Hajducsek going forward? Might he have been born simply
> as Andras Skop? Or might the use of Hajducsek have begun in previous
> generations?"
>
> The 'vel' in the 1795 record is Latin and translates to 'or' but also has a
> meaning 'in particular'. So the priest at the time recorded the original
> family name as originally 'Hajducsek'. The 1847 record shows that 'Skop'
> and 'Hajducsek' were still linked, but no mention of 'Kuhar'. This shows
> that there is some consistency within the records, at least as far as the
> priest(s)/scribes were consistent. The 'Hajducsek' name appearing as early
> as 1785 in the nearby village of Pol'ov cements that name as the original.
> I'm presuming that there was no 'Skop' alias in that record?
> So we can't say that one name took over the other at this stage, but the
> family wanted to be known by both names, so you need to follow the Skop and
> Hajducsek names from at least 1795 onwards.
>
> Joannes, son of Mathias, born in June 14th 1795 would of been 23 at the
> time of Andras's birth. Andras could be Joannes's son, or brother.
> As for Mathias's alias madness, I'll email you directly on possibilities.
>
> Peter M.
>
> On 5 February 2013 06:16, tkejuice1208  wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Hello all. After a year of some fairly intense research and a lot of
> > confusion, I am reaching out for assistance. The subject of the research is
> > Andras Hajducsek from Saca, a village a short distance south / southwest of
> > Kosice. The surname was not a popular one in Saca or the neighboring
> > villages of Mala Ida and Pol'ov so I do not believe that there was more
> > than one adult Andras Hajducsek of the same approximate age within my
> > window of research. Searching LDS records from Roman Catholic parishes in
> > the area, I have only been able to locate marriage and death records for
> > Andras. The marriage record from 1/28/1846 shows a 24 year old groom and
> > his 20 year old bride Anna Krisztianko from Saca. This places his year of
> > birth at 1821 or 1822. His death record on 1/24/1881 shows his widow Anna
> > Krisztanko and lists his age at 63. This places his YOB at 1817 or 1818. I
> > have not been able to locate his baptismal record despite searching RC
> > records in several area villages across all years 1815 â€" 1825.
> >
> > My first thought is that Andras Hajducsek and family may have migrated
> > from another village but the surname, as far as I can tell, appears in the
> > area as early as 1785 in Pol'ov. Still, I cannot document his birth and
> > parentage.
> >
> > I am worried that this research is being complicated by aliases. Andras
> > and Anna had a son (Andras) on 8/27/1847 in Saca. The name of the father
> > was recorded as Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop. This connection
> > to the Skop surname is further complicated by a possible relative from the
> > late 1700's whose name was recorded as Mathias Skop, alias Kuhar vel (I
> > think it is "vel") Hajducsek on the record from 5/14/1795 that I have
> > linked to:
> >
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22646-26414-74?cc=1554443&wc=M9MJ-\
R7W:n1744020469
> >
> > I have always been confused by the use of the alias in terms of which is
> > the old name and which carries forward, but the apparent use of three
> > surnames has created a nightmare. I have never seen three surnames recorded
> > for 1 person and cannot begin to make sense of it.
> >
> > Since I don't know that Mathias and Andras were related, I am focusing on
> > establishing the Hajducsek Skop connection. Does Hajducsek Andras maskep
> > (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been dropped in favor of Hajducsek
> > going forward? Might he have been born simply as Andras Skop? Or might the
> > use of Hajducsek have begun in previous generations?
> >
> > Can anyone explain Mathias and his alias madness???
> >
> > Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
> >
> > Thank you!
> >
> > Eric Hajducsek
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sure, but it was just a bit of free thinking about name origins as he
wanted to know which and why the alias occurred.
As it was basically off topic, I went private as it wouldn't of helped
anyone else. However I wrote briefly about the history of the Hajdu and
that they originated from Southern old Hungary including Macedonia,
Coratia, Serbia, Romania and Bulgaria. They were originally guerrilla
fighters against the Turks and later the Hapsburgs, often anti-Catholic.
They eventually became freemen (untaxed) and were later used on estates as
armed, horse-riding private police or overseers. In social standing, they
were a cut above the peasant farmers, although they were alienated in
certain places as they would force the labourers to keep working. The main
aspect of the Hajdus were in the revolutionary armies -The Kurucz and the
Rakoczi, both armies were present in the area from the late 1600 to about
1711. Both disbanded and were left to their own fates, often settling in
the area where they found themselves. So Hajducsek (Hajduczek) name was
descriptive of their origins. They were probably very proud of this.

Even more contentiously, Skop can be translated to Skopje, which provides
the Macedonian/Croatian link. The Ottoman empire had control of Greece as
well. Skop can refer to the Polish town and Hajdus were also used in Polish
estates as guards.
So I concluded that Skop was some form of remembrance by the Hajducsek
family.

Peter M.
P.S. I've been wrong before.....


On 5 February 2013 14:15, deeellessbee <deeellessbee@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Peter, if it's something that can be shared, I too would be interested in
> hearing your thoughts on Matthias' "alias madness". While I have the basics
> of (the "why" of) the alias name down, it still sometime confuses me and I
> still don't know which name was which in my family. So threads about
> aliases always catch my eye and I am interested in learning as much as I
> can about them.
>
> Thanks,
> Debbie
>
>
> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
> >
> > Hello Eric,
> >
> > "Does Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been
> > dropped in favor of Hajducsek going forward? Might he have been born
> simply
> > as Andras Skop? Or might the use of Hajducsek have begun in previous
> > generations?"
> >
> > The 'vel' in the 1795 record is Latin and translates to 'or' but also
> has a
> > meaning 'in particular'. So the priest at the time recorded the original
> > family name as originally 'Hajducsek'. The 1847 record shows that 'Skop'
> > and 'Hajducsek' were still linked, but no mention of 'Kuhar'. This shows
> > that there is some consistency within the records, at least as far as the
> > priest(s)/scribes were consistent. The 'Hajducsek' name appearing as
> early
> > as 1785 in the nearby village of Pol'ov cements that name as the
> original.
> > I'm presuming that there was no 'Skop' alias in that record?
> > So we can't say that one name took over the other at this stage, but the
> > family wanted to be known by both names, so you need to follow the Skop
> and
> > Hajducsek names from at least 1795 onwards.
> >
> > Joannes, son of Mathias, born in June 14th 1795 would of been 23 at the
> > time of Andras's birth. Andras could be Joannes's son, or brother.
> > As for Mathias's alias madness, I'll email you directly on possibilities.
> >
> > Peter M.
> >
> > On 5 February 2013 06:16, tkejuice1208 wrote:
> >
> > > **
>
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello all. After a year of some fairly intense research and a lot of
> > > confusion, I am reaching out for assistance. The subject of the
> research is
> > > Andras Hajducsek from Saca, a village a short distance south /
> southwest of
> > > Kosice. The surname was not a popular one in Saca or the neighboring
> > > villages of Mala Ida and Pol'ov so I do not believe that there was more
> > > than one adult Andras Hajducsek of the same approximate age within my
> > > window of research. Searching LDS records from Roman Catholic parishes
> in
> > > the area, I have only been able to locate marriage and death records
> for
> > > Andras. The marriage record from 1/28/1846 shows a 24 year old groom
> and
> > > his 20 year old bride Anna Krisztianko from Saca. This places his year
> of
> > > birth at 1821 or 1822. His death record on 1/24/1881 shows his widow
> Anna
> > > Krisztanko and lists his age at 63. This places his YOB at 1817 or
> 1818. I
> > > have not been able to locate his baptismal record despite searching RC
> > > records in several area villages across all years 1815 â€" 1825.
>
> > >
> > > My first thought is that Andras Hajducsek and family may have migrated
> > > from another village but the surname, as far as I can tell, appears in
> the
> > > area as early as 1785 in Pol'ov. Still, I cannot document his birth and
> > > parentage.
> > >
> > > I am worried that this research is being complicated by aliases. Andras
> > > and Anna had a son (Andras) on 8/27/1847 in Saca. The name of the
> father
> > > was recorded as Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop. This
> connection
> > > to the Skop surname is further complicated by a possible relative from
> the
> > > late 1700's whose name was recorded as Mathias Skop, alias Kuhar vel (I
> > > think it is "vel") Hajducsek on the record from 5/14/1795 that I have
> > > linked to:
> > >
>
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22646-26414-74?cc=1554443&wc=M9MJ-\
R7W:n1744020469
> > >
> > > I have always been confused by the use of the alias in terms of which
> is
> > > the old name and which carries forward, but the apparent use of three
> > > surnames has created a nightmare. I have never seen three surnames
> recorded
> > > for 1 person and cannot begin to make sense of it.
> > >
> > > Since I don't know that Mathias and Andras were related, I am focusing
> on
> > > establishing the Hajducsek Skop connection. Does Hajducsek Andras
> maskep
> > > (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been dropped in favor of Hajducsek
> > > going forward? Might he have been born simply as Andras Skop? Or might
> the
> > > use of Hajducsek have begun in previous generations?
> > >
> > > Can anyone explain Mathias and his alias madness???
> > >
> > > Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
> > >
> > > Thank you!
> > >
> > > Eric Hajducsek
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Eric

 I entered Hajdusek into the search engine on the LDS site instead of scrolling
through indivigual villiages.  ....It brougth up quite a few pages for Slovakia
and this country. The name could be spelled with a "c" , "s". or "cs" when using
search engines, of course when scrolling you'd catch all those variations.

 This is an interesting thread on aliases....I don't mean to confuse the
issue with spelling variations, as I was saying, spelling would only be
important when using a search engine.

good luck Eric

larry

 

 Is there a chance that Hajdu[c]sek   is something other than a surname. I
think haj means a snake, but someone told me once that they thought my gramma's
name G ajdusek, was a referrence to someone that served a duke in some capacity.
 In this case I think gaj is a bagpipe type musical instrument, and that person
said gajdusek could be a court musican....

----- Original Message -----


From: "htcstech" <htcstech@...>
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 4, 2013 5:34:19 PM
Subject: Re: [S-R] Alias Confusion (3 names)

Hello Eric,

"Does Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been
dropped in favor of Hajducsek going forward? Might he have been born simply
as Andras Skop? Or might the use of Hajducsek have begun in previous
generations?"

The 'vel' in the 1795 record is Latin and translates to 'or' but also has a
meaning 'in particular'. So the priest at the time recorded the original
family name as originally 'Hajducsek'. The 1847 record shows that 'Skop'
and 'Hajducsek' were still linked, but no mention of 'Kuhar'. This shows
that there is some consistency within the records, at least as far as the
priest(s)/scribes were consistent. The 'Hajducsek' name appearing as early
as 1785 in the nearby village of Pol'ov cements that name as the original.
I'm presuming that there was no 'Skop' alias in that record?
So we can't say that one name took over the other at this stage, but the
family wanted to be known by both names, so you need to follow the Skop and
Hajducsek names from at least 1795 onwards.

Joannes, son of Mathias, born in June 14th 1795 would of been 23 at the
time of Andras's birth. Andras could be Joannes's son, or brother.
As for Mathias's alias madness, I'll email you directly on possibilities.

Peter M.

On 5 February 2013 06:16, tkejuice1208 <tkejuice1208@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hello all. After a year of some fairly intense research and a lot of
> confusion, I am reaching out for assistance. The subject of the research is
> Andras Hajducsek from Saca, a village a short distance south / southwest of
> Kosice. The surname was not a popular one in Saca or the neighboring
> villages of Mala Ida and Pol'ov so I do not believe that there was more
> than one adult Andras Hajducsek of the same approximate age within my
> window of research. Searching LDS records from Roman Catholic parishes in
> the area, I have only been able to locate marriage and death records for
> Andras. The marriage record from 1/28/1846 shows a 24 year old groom and
> his 20 year old bride Anna Krisztianko from Saca. This places his year of
> birth at 1821 or 1822. His death record on 1/24/1881 shows his widow Anna
> Krisztanko and lists his age at 63. This places his YOB at 1817 or 1818. I
> have not been able to locate his baptismal record despite searching RC
> records in several area villages across all years 1815 – 1825.
>
> My first thought is that Andras Hajducsek and family may have migrated
> from another village but the surname, as far as I can tell, appears in the
> area as early as 1785 in Pol'ov. Still, I cannot document his birth and
> parentage.
>
> I am worried that this research is being complicated by aliases. Andras
> and Anna had a son (Andras) on 8/27/1847 in Saca. The name of the father
> was recorded as Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop. This connection
> to the Skop surname is further complicated by a possible relative from the
> late 1700's whose name was recorded as Mathias Skop, alias Kuhar vel (I
> think it is "vel") Hajducsek on the record from 5/14/1795 that I have
> linked to:
>
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22646-26414-74?cc=1554443&wc=M9MJ-\
R7W:n1744020469
>
> I have always been confused by the use of the alias in terms of which is
> the old name and which carries forward, but the apparent use of three
> surnames has created a nightmare. I have never seen three surnames recorded
> for 1 person and cannot begin to make sense of it.
>
> Since I don't know that Mathias and Andras were related, I am focusing on
> establishing the Hajducsek Skop connection. Does Hajducsek Andras maskep
> (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been dropped in favor of Hajducsek
> going forward? Might he have been born simply as Andras Skop? Or might the
> use of Hajducsek have begun in previous generations?
>
> Can anyone explain Mathias and his alias madness???
>
> Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thank you!
>
> Eric Hajducsek
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Very interesting dialogue. Seems it should be saved as reference material.
Thanks for not making it private

Sent from my iPhone
Tom Kukuk
612.309.7999


On Feb 5, 2013, at 12:22 AM, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:

> Sure, but it was just a bit of free thinking about name origins as he
> wanted to know which and why the alias occurred.
> As it was basically off topic, I went private as it wouldn't of helped
> anyone else. However I wrote briefly about the history of the Hajdu and
> that they originated from Southern old Hungary including Macedonia,
> Coratia, Serbia, Romania and Bulgaria. They were originally guerrilla
> fighters against the Turks and later the Hapsburgs, often anti-Catholic.
> They eventually became freemen (untaxed) and were later used on estates as
> armed, horse-riding private police or overseers. In social standing, they
> were a cut above the peasant farmers, although they were alienated in
> certain places as they would force the labourers to keep working. The main
> aspect of the Hajdus were in the revolutionary armies -The Kurucz and the
> Rakoczi, both armies were present in the area from the late 1600 to about
> 1711. Both disbanded and were left to their own fates, often settling in
> the area where they found themselves. So Hajducsek (Hajduczek) name was
> descriptive of their origins. They were probably very proud of this.
>
> Even more contentiously, Skop can be translated to Skopje, which provides
> the Macedonian/Croatian link. The Ottoman empire had control of Greece as
> well. Skop can refer to the Polish town and Hajdus were also used in Polish
> estates as guards.
> So I concluded that Skop was some form of remembrance by the Hajducsek
> family.
>
> Peter M.
> P.S. I've been wrong before.....
>
> On 5 February 2013 14:15, deeellessbee deeellessbee@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Peter, if it's something that can be shared, I too would be interested in
> > hearing your thoughts on Matthias' "alias madness". While I have the basics
> > of (the "why" of) the alias name down, it still sometime confuses me and I
> > still don't know which name was which in my family. So threads about
> > aliases always catch my eye and I am interested in learning as much as I
> > can about them.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Debbie
> >
> >
> > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Eric,
> > >
> > > "Does Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been
> > > dropped in favor of Hajducsek going forward? Might he have been born
> > simply
> > > as Andras Skop? Or might the use of Hajducsek have begun in previous
> > > generations?"
> > >
> > > The 'vel' in the 1795 record is Latin and translates to 'or' but also
> > has a
> > > meaning 'in particular'. So the priest at the time recorded the original
> > > family name as originally 'Hajducsek'. The 1847 record shows that 'Skop'
> > > and 'Hajducsek' were still linked, but no mention of 'Kuhar'. This shows
> > > that there is some consistency within the records, at least as far as the
> > > priest(s)/scribes were consistent. The 'Hajducsek' name appearing as
> > early
> > > as 1785 in the nearby village of Pol'ov cements that name as the
> > original.
> > > I'm presuming that there was no 'Skop' alias in that record?
> > > So we can't say that one name took over the other at this stage, but the
> > > family wanted to be known by both names, so you need to follow the Skop
> > and
> > > Hajducsek names from at least 1795 onwards.
> > >
> > > Joannes, son of Mathias, born in June 14th 1795 would of been 23 at the
> > > time of Andras's birth. Andras could be Joannes's son, or brother.
> > > As for Mathias's alias madness, I'll email you directly on possibilities.
> > >
> > > Peter M.
> > >
> > > On 5 February 2013 06:16, tkejuice1208 wrote:
> > >
> > > > **
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hello all. After a year of some fairly intense research and a lot of
> > > > confusion, I am reaching out for assistance. The subject of the
> > research is
> > > > Andras Hajducsek from Saca, a village a short distance south /
> > southwest of
> > > > Kosice. The surname was not a popular one in Saca or the neighboring
> > > > villages of Mala Ida and Pol'ov so I do not believe that there was more
> > > > than one adult Andras Hajducsek of the same approximate age within my
> > > > window of research. Searching LDS records from Roman Catholic parishes
> > in
> > > > the area, I have only been able to locate marriage and death records
> > for
> > > > Andras. The marriage record from 1/28/1846 shows a 24 year old groom
> > and
> > > > his 20 year old bride Anna Krisztianko from Saca. This places his year
> > of
> > > > birth at 1821 or 1822. His death record on 1/24/1881 shows his widow
> > Anna
> > > > Krisztanko and lists his age at 63. This places his YOB at 1817 or
> > 1818. I
> > > > have not been able to locate his baptismal record despite searching RC
> > > > records in several area villages across all years 1815 â€" 1825.
> >
> > > >
> > > > My first thought is that Andras Hajducsek and family may have migrated
> > > > from another village but the surname, as far as I can tell, appears in
> > the
> > > > area as early as 1785 in Pol'ov. Still, I cannot document his birth and
> > > > parentage.
> > > >
> > > > I am worried that this research is being complicated by aliases. Andras
> > > > and Anna had a son (Andras) on 8/27/1847 in Saca. The name of the
> > father
> > > > was recorded as Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop. This
> > connection
> > > > to the Skop surname is further complicated by a possible relative from
> > the
> > > > late 1700's whose name was recorded as Mathias Skop, alias Kuhar vel (I
> > > > think it is "vel") Hajducsek on the record from 5/14/1795 that I have
> > > > linked to:
> > > >
> >
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22646-26414-74?cc=1554443&wc=M9MJ-\
R7W:n1744020469
> > > >
> > > > I have always been confused by the use of the alias in terms of which
> > is
> > > > the old name and which carries forward, but the apparent use of three
> > > > surnames has created a nightmare. I have never seen three surnames
> > recorded
> > > > for 1 person and cannot begin to make sense of it.
> > > >
> > > > Since I don't know that Mathias and Andras were related, I am focusing
> > on
> > > > establishing the Hajducsek Skop connection. Does Hajducsek Andras
> > maskep
> > > > (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been dropped in favor of Hajducsek
> > > > going forward? Might he have been born simply as Andras Skop? Or might
> > the
> > > > use of Hajducsek have begun in previous generations?
> > > >
> > > > Can anyone explain Mathias and his alias madness???
> > > >
> > > > Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
> > > >
> > > > Thank you!
> > > >
> > > > Eric Hajducsek
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks to all who have provided input.  These discussions are always very
interesting and I encourage additional input that may be of value.  To answer a
previous question, I have not yet seen the alias in reverse (Hajducsek, alias
Skop).

As the wheels continue to turn in my head, I thought of an event that may
trigger an alias.  Please let know if you can verify such an occurrence or
otherwise know this to be true.  The scenario is that unwed mother gives birth
to child "A" (illeg).  Child is baptized with mother's maiden surname.  Mother
marries and had additional children who carry the surname of the father.  Child
"A" has mother's maiden surname, but can be associated with the family
unit/household that bears the surname of the husband, therefore triggering the
alias by association.

Thoughts?

Tom,

That is a good idea, and there is no reason you or another ambitious member of
S-R can't do it. This is largely a self moderating, independent group, and we
volunteer moderators are here primarily to assure continuity, administer, and
occasionally moderate.

Any responsible member could take this thread, retain reference to post numbers
and authors so the original posts can be located in the future, and edit out all
of the extraneous material in the discussion, distilling the contributions to a
comprehensive, readable description of Aliases, and post it to the FILES section
of the forum. Perhaps keeping the original title _Alias Confusion_ would be
appropriate, perhaps not.

That is one way we could develop a good "community reference library" over time.
While we are currently in the process of culling out old individual posts in the
Files and Photos sections, the memory area is intended for community benefit,
and this would seem quite appropriate.

Do we have any volunteers for this topic?

Ron
PS. Does anyone have another favorite topic that was well discussed in the past,
that clarified a topic important to them and to the group, that would be willing
to go back and distill that to a readable , comprehensive topic?

This is posted as an idea from one member, with no implication that it is anyway
official guidance or policy.



--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Tom Kukuk  wrote:
>
> Very interesting dialogue. Seems it should be saved as reference material.
Thanks for not making it private
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> Tom Kukuk
> 612.309.7999
>
>
> On Feb 5, 2013, at 12:22 AM, htcstech  wrote:
>
> > Sure, but it was just a bit of free thinking about name origins as he
> > wanted to know which and why the alias occurred.
> > As it was basically off topic, I went private as it wouldn't of helped
> > anyone else. However I wrote briefly about the history of the Hajdu and
> > that they originated from Southern old Hungary including Macedonia,
> > Coratia, Serbia, Romania and Bulgaria. They were originally guerrilla
> > fighters against the Turks and later the Hapsburgs, often anti-Catholic.
> > They eventually became freemen (untaxed) and were later used on estates as
> > armed, horse-riding private police or overseers. In social standing, they
> > were a cut above the peasant farmers, although they were alienated in
> > certain places as they would force the labourers to keep working. The main
> > aspect of the Hajdus were in the revolutionary armies -The Kurucz and the
> > Rakoczi, both armies were present in the area from the late 1600 to about
> > 1711. Both disbanded and were left to their own fates, often settling in
> > the area where they found themselves. So Hajducsek (Hajduczek) name was
> > descriptive of their origins. They were probably very proud of this.
> >
> > Even more contentiously, Skop can be translated to Skopje, which provides
> > the Macedonian/Croatian link. The Ottoman empire had control of Greece as
> > well. Skop can refer to the Polish town and Hajdus were also used in Polish
> > estates as guards.
> > So I concluded that Skop was some form of remembrance by the Hajducsek
> > family.
> >
> > Peter M.
> > P.S. I've been wrong before.....
> >
> > On 5 February 2013 14:15, deeellessbee deeellessbee@...> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Peter, if it's something that can be shared, I too would be interested in
> > > hearing your thoughts on Matthias' "alias madness". While I have the
basics
> > > of (the "why" of) the alias name down, it still sometime confuses me and I
> > > still don't know which name was which in my family. So threads about
> > > aliases always catch my eye and I am interested in learning as much as I
> > > can about them.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Debbie
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello Eric,
> > > >
> > > > "Does Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been
> > > > dropped in favor of Hajducsek going forward? Might he have been born
> > > simply
> > > > as Andras Skop? Or might the use of Hajducsek have begun in previous
> > > > generations?"
> > > >
> > > > The 'vel' in the 1795 record is Latin and translates to 'or' but also
> > > has a
> > > > meaning 'in particular'. So the priest at the time recorded the original
> > > > family name as originally 'Hajducsek'. The 1847 record shows that 'Skop'
> > > > and 'Hajducsek' were still linked, but no mention of 'Kuhar'. This shows
> > > > that there is some consistency within the records, at least as far as
the
> > > > priest(s)/scribes were consistent. The 'Hajducsek' name appearing as
> > > early
> > > > as 1785 in the nearby village of Pol'ov cements that name as the
> > > original.
> > > > I'm presuming that there was no 'Skop' alias in that record?
> > > > So we can't say that one name took over the other at this stage, but the
> > > > family wanted to be known by both names, so you need to follow the Skop
> > > and
> > > > Hajducsek names from at least 1795 onwards.
> > > >
> > > > Joannes, son of Mathias, born in June 14th 1795 would of been 23 at the
> > > > time of Andras's birth. Andras could be Joannes's son, or brother.
> > > > As for Mathias's alias madness, I'll email you directly on
possibilities.
> > > >
> > > > Peter M.
> > > >
> > > > On 5 February 2013 06:16, tkejuice1208 wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > **
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello all. After a year of some fairly intense research and a lot of
> > > > > confusion, I am reaching out for assistance. The subject of the
> > > research is
> > > > > Andras Hajducsek from Saca, a village a short distance south /
> > > southwest of
> > > > > Kosice. The surname was not a popular one in Saca or the neighboring
> > > > > villages of Mala Ida and Pol'ov so I do not believe that there was
more
> > > > > than one adult Andras Hajducsek of the same approximate age within my
> > > > > window of research. Searching LDS records from Roman Catholic parishes
> > > in
> > > > > the area, I have only been able to locate marriage and death records
> > > for
> > > > > Andras. The marriage record from 1/28/1846 shows a 24 year old groom
> > > and
> > > > > his 20 year old bride Anna Krisztianko from Saca. This places his year
> > > of
> > > > > birth at 1821 or 1822. His death record on 1/24/1881 shows his widow
> > > Anna
> > > > > Krisztanko and lists his age at 63. This places his YOB at 1817 or
> > > 1818. I
> > > > > have not been able to locate his baptismal record despite searching RC
> > > > > records in several area villages across all years 1815 â€" 1825.
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > My first thought is that Andras Hajducsek and family may have migrated
> > > > > from another village but the surname, as far as I can tell, appears in
> > > the
> > > > > area as early as 1785 in Pol'ov. Still, I cannot document his birth
and
> > > > > parentage.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am worried that this research is being complicated by aliases.
Andras
> > > > > and Anna had a son (Andras) on 8/27/1847 in Saca. The name of the
> > > father
> > > > > was recorded as Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop. This
> > > connection
> > > > > to the Skop surname is further complicated by a possible relative from
> > > the
> > > > > late 1700's whose name was recorded as Mathias Skop, alias Kuhar vel
(I
> > > > > think it is "vel") Hajducsek on the record from 5/14/1795 that I have
> > > > > linked to:
> > > > >
> > >
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22646-26414-74?cc=1554443&wc=M9MJ-\
R7W:n1744020469
> > > > >
> > > > > I have always been confused by the use of the alias in terms of which
> > > is
> > > > > the old name and which carries forward, but the apparent use of three
> > > > > surnames has created a nightmare. I have never seen three surnames
> > > recorded
> > > > > for 1 person and cannot begin to make sense of it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Since I don't know that Mathias and Andras were related, I am focusing
> > > on
> > > > > establishing the Hajducsek Skop connection. Does Hajducsek Andras
> > > maskep
> > > > > (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been dropped in favor of Hajducsek
> > > > > going forward? Might he have been born simply as Andras Skop? Or might
> > > the
> > > > > use of Hajducsek have begun in previous generations?
> > > > >
> > > > > Can anyone explain Mathias and his alias madness???
> > > > >
> > > > > Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you!
> > > > >
> > > > > Eric Hajducsek
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Thank you Peter!

Debbie


--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech  wrote:
>
> Sure, but it was just a bit of free thinking about name origins as he
> wanted to know which and why the alias occurred.
> As it was basically off topic, I went private as it wouldn't of helped
> anyone else. However I wrote briefly about the history of the Hajdu and
> that they originated from Southern old Hungary including Macedonia,
> Coratia, Serbia, Romania and Bulgaria. They were originally guerrilla
> fighters against the Turks and later the Hapsburgs, often anti-Catholic.
> They eventually became freemen (untaxed) and were later used on estates as
> armed, horse-riding private police or overseers. In social standing, they
> were a cut above the peasant farmers, although they were alienated in
> certain places as they would force the labourers to keep working. The main
> aspect of the Hajdus were in the revolutionary armies -The Kurucz and the
> Rakoczi, both armies were present in the area from the late 1600 to about
> 1711. Both disbanded and were left to their own fates, often settling in
> the area where they found themselves. So Hajducsek (Hajduczek) name was
> descriptive of their origins. They were probably very proud of this.
>
> Even more contentiously, Skop can be translated to Skopje, which provides
> the Macedonian/Croatian link. The Ottoman empire had control of Greece as
> well. Skop can refer to the Polish town and Hajdus were also used in Polish
> estates as guards.
> So I concluded that Skop was some form of remembrance by the Hajducsek
> family.
>
> Peter M.
> P.S. I've been wrong before.....
>
>
> On 5 February 2013 14:15, deeellessbee  wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Peter, if it's something that can be shared, I too would be interested in
> > hearing your thoughts on Matthias' "alias madness". While I have the basics
> > of (the "why" of) the alias name down, it still sometime confuses me and I
> > still don't know which name was which in my family. So threads about
> > aliases always catch my eye and I am interested in learning as much as I
> > can about them.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Debbie
> >
> >
> > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Eric,
> > >
> > > "Does Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been
> > > dropped in favor of Hajducsek going forward? Might he have been born
> > simply
> > > as Andras Skop? Or might the use of Hajducsek have begun in previous
> > > generations?"
> > >
> > > The 'vel' in the 1795 record is Latin and translates to 'or' but also
> > has a
> > > meaning 'in particular'. So the priest at the time recorded the original
> > > family name as originally 'Hajducsek'. The 1847 record shows that 'Skop'
> > > and 'Hajducsek' were still linked, but no mention of 'Kuhar'. This shows
> > > that there is some consistency within the records, at least as far as the
> > > priest(s)/scribes were consistent. The 'Hajducsek' name appearing as
> > early
> > > as 1785 in the nearby village of Pol'ov cements that name as the
> > original.
> > > I'm presuming that there was no 'Skop' alias in that record?
> > > So we can't say that one name took over the other at this stage, but the
> > > family wanted to be known by both names, so you need to follow the Skop
> > and
> > > Hajducsek names from at least 1795 onwards.
> > >
> > > Joannes, son of Mathias, born in June 14th 1795 would of been 23 at the
> > > time of Andras's birth. Andras could be Joannes's son, or brother.
> > > As for Mathias's alias madness, I'll email you directly on possibilities.
> > >
> > > Peter M.
> > >
> > > On 5 February 2013 06:16, tkejuice1208 wrote:
> > >
> > > > **
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hello all. After a year of some fairly intense research and a lot of
> > > > confusion, I am reaching out for assistance. The subject of the
> > research is
> > > > Andras Hajducsek from Saca, a village a short distance south /
> > southwest of
> > > > Kosice. The surname was not a popular one in Saca or the neighboring
> > > > villages of Mala Ida and Pol'ov so I do not believe that there was more
> > > > than one adult Andras Hajducsek of the same approximate age within my
> > > > window of research. Searching LDS records from Roman Catholic parishes
> > in
> > > > the area, I have only been able to locate marriage and death records
> > for
> > > > Andras. The marriage record from 1/28/1846 shows a 24 year old groom
> > and
> > > > his 20 year old bride Anna Krisztianko from Saca. This places his year
> > of
> > > > birth at 1821 or 1822. His death record on 1/24/1881 shows his widow
> > Anna
> > > > Krisztanko and lists his age at 63. This places his YOB at 1817 or
> > 1818. I
> > > > have not been able to locate his baptismal record despite searching RC
> > > > records in several area villages across all years 1815 â€" 1825.
> >
> > > >
> > > > My first thought is that Andras Hajducsek and family may have migrated
> > > > from another village but the surname, as far as I can tell, appears in
> > the
> > > > area as early as 1785 in Pol'ov. Still, I cannot document his birth and
> > > > parentage.
> > > >
> > > > I am worried that this research is being complicated by aliases. Andras
> > > > and Anna had a son (Andras) on 8/27/1847 in Saca. The name of the
> > father
> > > > was recorded as Hajducsek Andras maskep (otherwise) Skop. This
> > connection
> > > > to the Skop surname is further complicated by a possible relative from
> > the
> > > > late 1700's whose name was recorded as Mathias Skop, alias Kuhar vel (I
> > > > think it is "vel") Hajducsek on the record from 5/14/1795 that I have
> > > > linked to:
> > > >
> >
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-22646-26414-74?cc=1554443&wc=M9MJ-\
R7W:n1744020469
> > > >
> > > > I have always been confused by the use of the alias in terms of which
> > is
> > > > the old name and which carries forward, but the apparent use of three
> > > > surnames has created a nightmare. I have never seen three surnames
> > recorded
> > > > for 1 person and cannot begin to make sense of it.
> > > >
> > > > Since I don't know that Mathias and Andras were related, I am focusing
> > on
> > > > establishing the Hajducsek Skop connection. Does Hajducsek Andras
> > maskep
> > > > (otherwise) Skop mean that Skop had been dropped in favor of Hajducsek
> > > > going forward? Might he have been born simply as Andras Skop? Or might
> > the
> > > > use of Hajducsek have begun in previous generations?
> > > >
> > > > Can anyone explain Mathias and his alias madness???
> > > >
> > > > Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
> > > >
> > > > Thank you!
> > > >
> > > > Eric Hajducsek
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Eric,
In raising the question of the Alias or "do' name it is important to remember
that this was not a uniform practice over time and place, but varied until it
disappeared at the beginning of the 20th century.

That is, it was much more common in small communities that were partially
illiterate, oral cultures, and without possessing documents.  Their births,
deaths, and marriages were simply recorded by clergy in the church books
according to what the clergy either  'knew' or the people told them.  People did
not even remember their birthdays accurately,but they celebrated saint's days
which were known through the church calendar.

Aliases or name changes came about from the case you mention here but also  but
also following spousal deaths and remarriages. So children of first marriages
followed by a death of a father and a mother's remarriage often took on the name
of the second father with no formal procedure in place, just custom.  It just
became too difficult for neighbors to remember what to call which child.  My own
grandmother was married twice and the children of the first marriage took on the
name of her second husband without much question, though within the family we
knew the whole story and differentiated them with an alias.  Our grandmother's
entire family also had a third alias to differentiate it from from another set
of rather distant cousins who shared first names. This alias persisted even when
the original last name was no longer shared by women who had married and had
children.

Some aliases were taken on by which house one might move into. It was rare to
move into a house not inherited in some way so when it happened one might be
called by a name of a former family who occupied that home.   So a man might be
called by neighbors - John Smith  who lives in the Zobrak home - and eventually
just John Zobrak.

Some aliases were taken on by men who married a woman in another village and
went to live with her family. Since local villagers knew her family but not him,
he would just take on her family name.

Some aliases were taken on by men who married women of different class, or who
were owners or heiresses of land when the husband was not.

And while I have not found a case in church records, it seems not unlikely that,
just as in this country presently,  people sometimes take on an alias  by moving
and escaping a bad reputation.:)

Curt B.

--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "tkejuice1208"  wrote:
>
> Thanks to all who have provided input.  These discussions are always very
interesting and I encourage additional input that may be of value.  To answer a
previous question, I have not yet seen the alias in reverse (Hajducsek, alias
Skop).
>
> As the wheels continue to turn in my head, I thought of an event that may
trigger an alias.  Please let know if you can verify such an occurrence or
otherwise know this to be true.  The scenario is that unwed mother gives birth
to child "A" (illeg).  Child is baptized with mother's maiden surname.  Mother
marries and had additional children who carry the surname of the father.  Child
"A" has mother's maiden surname, but can be associated with the family
unit/household that bears the surname of the husband, therefore triggering the
alias by association.
>
> Thoughts?
>

Thank you Curt!
Your explanation summarises the alias events very well.
I have an oral history (told in 2012) where some branches of the family
were differentiated by nicknames, though still keeping the family name.
The first example was of 'Bartosi Marafko' who bought the land owned by
Bartos and the other, 'Olle Marafko' or 'Marafko Olle' where the maiden
name was used.
Neither became aliases or recorded in church books. It was and still is
used for identification in general conversation as a convenience.

You raise an interesting point about literacy.
Most of us have only the church archives to examine where considerable
spelling variations occurred. If the individual (let's say a marriage pre
1869) was literate and the scribe wrote the name incorrectly, would he have
an opportunity to read the entry and suggest correction? Were the entries
only for the perusal of the priests? Did tax officials have access to these
records?
It is difficult to find information regarding schooling from 1770 onwards.
I understand that there was an education revolution during the
industrialisation era of 1880 onwards, but prior to that I've only found a
few references to the advent of Lutheran schools and guilds and the
establishment of Catholic schools as a reaction to this as part of the
anti-reformation movement. I think much of this schooling had a lot to do
with the Estate owners. I know that Esterhazy (the Matyusfold Estate in
Galanta) built an orphanage which may have also included a school.
What is known about early schooling?

Thank you

Peter M.

On 7 February 2013 06:35, CurtB <curt67boc@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Eric,
> In raising the question of the Alias or "do' name it is important to
> remember that this was not a uniform practice over time and place, but
> varied until it disappeared at the beginning of the 20th century.
>
> That is, it was much more common in small communities that were partially
> illiterate, oral cultures, and without possessing documents. Their births,
> deaths, and marriages were simply recorded by clergy in the church books
> according to what the clergy either 'knew' or the people told them. People
> did not even remember their birthdays accurately,but they celebrated
> saint's days which were known through the church calendar.
>
> Aliases or name changes came about from the case you mention here but also
> but also following spousal deaths and remarriages. So children of first
> marriages followed by a death of a father and a mother's remarriage often
> took on the name of the second father with no formal procedure in place,
> just custom. It just became too difficult for neighbors to remember what to
> call which child. My own grandmother was married twice and the children of
> the first marriage took on the name of her second husband without much
> question, though within the family we knew the whole story and
> differentiated them with an alias. Our grandmother's entire family also had
> a third alias to differentiate it from from another set of rather distant
> cousins who shared first names. This alias persisted even when the original
> last name was no longer shared by women who had married and had children.
>
> Some aliases were taken on by which house one might move into. It was rare
> to move into a house not inherited in some way so when it happened one
> might be called by a name of a former family who occupied that home. So a
> man might be called by neighbors - John Smith who lives in the Zobrak home
> - and eventually just John Zobrak.
>
> Some aliases were taken on by men who married a woman in another village
> and went to live with her family. Since local villagers knew her family but
> not him, he would just take on her family name.
>
> Some aliases were taken on by men who married women of different class, or
> who were owners or heiresses of land when the husband was not.
>
> And while I have not found a case in church records, it seems not unlikely
> that, just as in this country presently, people sometimes take on an alias
> by moving and escaping a bad reputation.:)
>
> Curt B.
>
>
> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "tkejuice1208" wrote:
> >
> > Thanks to all who have provided input. These discussions are always very
> interesting and I encourage additional input that may be of value. To
> answer a previous question, I have not yet seen the alias in reverse
> (Hajducsek, alias Skop).
> >
> > As the wheels continue to turn in my head, I thought of an event that
> may trigger an alias. Please let know if you can verify such an occurrence
> or otherwise know this to be true. The scenario is that unwed mother gives
> birth to child "A" (illeg). Child is baptized with mother's maiden surname.
> Mother marries and had additional children who carry the surname of the
> father. Child "A" has mother's maiden surname, but can be associated with
> the family unit/household that bears the surname of the husband, therefore
> triggering the alias by association.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

All this talk about aliases reminded me of a surname variation in my own family.
One of my family lines has a surname of Janko but in some of the records it is
written as Jankovje.  It is almost certain the same family because the wife's
name is the same on all the records.  Could this be some diminutive ending? Is
there any significance to a "vje" ending?
CK

Thanks Curt, Peter and everyone else for your contributions.  The dialogue has
certainly helped me and will definitely help others prepare research strategies
aimed at overcoming the alias obstacle.  Please feel free to contact me
personally with related information.

All the best,

Eric Hajducsek



--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech  wrote:
>
> Thank you Curt!
> Your explanation summarises the alias events very well.
> I have an oral history (told in 2012) where some branches of the family
> were differentiated by nicknames, though still keeping the family name.
> The first example was of 'Bartosi Marafko' who bought the land owned by
> Bartos and the other, 'Olle Marafko' or 'Marafko Olle' where the maiden
> name was used.
> Neither became aliases or recorded in church books. It was and still is
> used for identification in general conversation as a convenience.
>
> You raise an interesting point about literacy.
> Most of us have only the church archives to examine where considerable
> spelling variations occurred. If the individual (let's say a marriage pre
> 1869) was literate and the scribe wrote the name incorrectly, would he have
> an opportunity to read the entry and suggest correction? Were the entries
> only for the perusal of the priests? Did tax officials have access to these
> records?
> It is difficult to find information regarding schooling from 1770 onwards.
> I understand that there was an education revolution during the
> industrialisation era of 1880 onwards, but prior to that I've only found a
> few references to the advent of Lutheran schools and guilds and the
> establishment of Catholic schools as a reaction to this as part of the
> anti-reformation movement. I think much of this schooling had a lot to do
> with the Estate owners. I know that Esterhazy (the Matyusfold Estate in
> Galanta) built an orphanage which may have also included a school.
> What is known about early schooling?
>
> Thank you
>
> Peter M.
>
> On 7 February 2013 06:35, CurtB  wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Eric,
> > In raising the question of the Alias or "do' name it is important to
> > remember that this was not a uniform practice over time and place, but
> > varied until it disappeared at the beginning of the 20th century.
> >
> > That is, it was much more common in small communities that were partially
> > illiterate, oral cultures, and without possessing documents. Their births,
> > deaths, and marriages were simply recorded by clergy in the church books
> > according to what the clergy either 'knew' or the people told them. People
> > did not even remember their birthdays accurately,but they celebrated
> > saint's days which were known through the church calendar.
> >
> > Aliases or name changes came about from the case you mention here but also
> > but also following spousal deaths and remarriages. So children of first
> > marriages followed by a death of a father and a mother's remarriage often
> > took on the name of the second father with no formal procedure in place,
> > just custom. It just became too difficult for neighbors to remember what to
> > call which child. My own grandmother was married twice and the children of
> > the first marriage took on the name of her second husband without much
> > question, though within the family we knew the whole story and
> > differentiated them with an alias. Our grandmother's entire family also had
> > a third alias to differentiate it from from another set of rather distant
> > cousins who shared first names. This alias persisted even when the original
> > last name was no longer shared by women who had married and had children.
> >
> > Some aliases were taken on by which house one might move into. It was rare
> > to move into a house not inherited in some way so when it happened one
> > might be called by a name of a former family who occupied that home. So a
> > man might be called by neighbors - John Smith who lives in the Zobrak home
> > - and eventually just John Zobrak.
> >
> > Some aliases were taken on by men who married a woman in another village
> > and went to live with her family. Since local villagers knew her family but
> > not him, he would just take on her family name.
> >
> > Some aliases were taken on by men who married women of different class, or
> > who were owners or heiresses of land when the husband was not.
> >
> > And while I have not found a case in church records, it seems not unlikely
> > that, just as in this country presently, people sometimes take on an alias
> > by moving and escaping a bad reputation.:)
> >
> > Curt B.
> >
> >
> > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "tkejuice1208" wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks to all who have provided input. These discussions are always very
> > interesting and I encourage additional input that may be of value. To
> > answer a previous question, I have not yet seen the alias in reverse
> > (Hajducsek, alias Skop).
> > >
> > > As the wheels continue to turn in my head, I thought of an event that
> > may trigger an alias. Please let know if you can verify such an occurrence
> > or otherwise know this to be true. The scenario is that unwed mother gives
> > birth to child "A" (illeg). Child is baptized with mother's maiden surname.
> > Mother marries and had additional children who carry the surname of the
> > father. Child "A" has mother's maiden surname, but can be associated with
> > the family unit/household that bears the surname of the husband, therefore
> > triggering the alias by association.
> > >
> > > Thoughts?
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>