Hello Martha,

Your best bet is to look at this site, select the letter the village/town
name begins with and look through the list as there can be a number of
villages with the same name in different counties:

http://www.cisarik.com/0_all-villages-A.html

Once you are sure that it's the right place, then google/bing search it.
Some villages are so small that there may not be a website devoted to it.
Duplin I think is one of these.
Lozin: http://www.obeclozin.sk/-home
Rakovčík: http://www.saris.eu.sk/rakovcik/en

Sometimes Wikipedia has a link to the home town page as well - or some of
the accomodation directories.

Peter M.


On 27 January 2013 09:23, martha.andras <mandras@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
> Hi!
>
> I noticed that someone posted a website for the town of Jarovnice
> (www.jarovnice.ocu.sk). I am wondering if anyone knows if there are
> websites for the towns of Lozin, Duplin and Rakocz? That is where my
> ancestors are from. I've searched the internet many times but haven't found
> anything.
>
> Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
>
> Martha Andras
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bette,
Glad that we've helped.

After the Location column are the Sponsors or God Parents, their Surname,
Christian name, work and religion. Next column is the name of the
priest/scribe, followed by Notes. That would be accurate for this time
frame up to 1895 when the Hungarian government went with civil
registrations but used the church records prior to this date.
The Hungarian-nes of some of these records in present day Slovakia was due
to 'Magyarization' where the Hungarian government closed 'ethnic' schools
and settled Hungarians into traditional 'ethnic' villages throughout the
old country. Magyarization included present day Slovakia, Romania,
Slovenia, Italy, Moldavia, Ukraine, Serbia et.al. It was a pro-Nationalist
reaction against Austria who wanted to replace around 16 different
languages in the Austro-Hungarian empire with German in official
communications. This happened from 1869 onwards as an edict from the
government to all churches and official institutions. So some names were
written in Hungarian spelling, which in your case is a bit of an advantage
as it shows pronunciation. You would have to work backwards to see if the
name did change in spelling ~ I am often wrong.
The result of this (keeping on genealogy) is that the Hungarian spelling
stuck in some instances, so that factor added to the variation of names.
There is no guarantee about literacy and/or dialect either, so the scribe
may write the name as it sounded, or mis-transcribed the name from an
earlier record.
Your scribe was Hungarian (check image 200 - page now in Latin) where he
wrote the names in Magyar eg TERESZKO instead of TERESKO and so on.

Peter M

On 27 January 2013 10:19, Bette <bettetina1@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi Carl,
> You found him!!!I can't believe it was so fast.
> I wrote a big thank you post to all of you for helping me find my
> grandfather, FRANK TRISIK AKA FERENCZ TRISCSIK and I don't think it posted.
> I got a message about an error.
> I wrote that I had been looking at those records on familysearch for about
> 3 or 4 weeks and was figuring out what it all meant , but the records in
> Latin or German were easier for me.
> I can't believe it was so fast. In less than 24 hours after my 1st post on
> Slovak-Roots, I found my grandfather!! You are all great and it was a
> fantastic collaborative
> effort.
> I now can go on to find out more about his parents, and brother / sister.
> I may need more help then.
> What are the 2 columns after the town of birth or baptism? Is the next one
> for Godparents?
> Now I have to call my sisters and sons to tell them the news.
> My dad was 3 when his mother died and 6 when Frank died and he could not
> remember either of them. He knew a little about them but always wanted to
> know more. Even though Daddy has been dead for over 20 years, I am so happy
> to have found our Slovak Roots :D
> Thank again,
> Bette Triscik
>
> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Carl" wrote:
> >
> > Bette, I'm not sure I understand Larry's comments but I did make a
> mistake about the first baptism record I sent you. There is a second
> baptism record for another Ferencz Triscsik who was born on October 1, 1879
> in Jernye (Jarovnice). This one is more likely your ancestor and the date
> of his birth is more consistent with your information. sorry for my earlier
> mistake. Here is a link to the record.
> >
> >
>
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18045-83550-12?cc=1554443&wc=M9MJ-TSS\
:n1550137223
> >
> > CK
> >
> > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, lkocik@ wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bette
> > >
> > > Â I think you should look seriously into what Frank mentioned.
> > >
> > > Â He has a way of looking at the big picture.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Â Frank is also spelled Frantisek. Slovak, being a spoken language, is
> more about how words sound than how they are put to paper.
> > >
> > >  There are also problems translating Slavic languages  into English.
> > >
> > > Â  So, an immigrant, Â saying the word Frantisek could very easily
> have been interpreted as Frank trisik.
> > >
> > > Â Maybe nothing is going to make much sense without some kind of
> documentaion from the old country.
> > >
> > > Â larry
> > >
> > > Â
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: "Frank R Plichta"
> > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 10:04:58 AM
> > > Subject: RE: [S-R] Re: TRISIK/ TRISICK / TRESICK / TURAK relatives
> > >
> > > Bette,
> > >
> > > Â
> > >
> > > While this may not mean much it struck me as unusual.
> > >
> > > Â
> > >
> > > You are looking for Frank Triscik.
> > >
> > > The Slovak name for Frank/Francis is Frantiscki.
> > >
> > > Â
> > >
> > > Maybe close and maybe no prize. Â Just an observation.
> > >
> > > Â
> > >
> > > Frank
> > >
> > > Â
> > >
> > > Â Â _____ Â
> > >
> > > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
> SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
> > > Behalf Of CurtB
> > > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 11:52 AM
> > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [S-R] Re: TRISIK/ TRISICK / TRESICK / TURAK relatives
> > >
> > > Â
> > >
> > > Â Â
> > >
> > > Bette,
> > > I forgot to mention that the name Triscik is still a common name in
> the
> > > village of Jarovnice. It is found in the census records and also in
> the
> > > Slovak online telephone book.
> > >
> > > Curt B.
> > >
> > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> > > , "Bette" wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'm so excited that I just found Slovak Roots after listening to
> > > > Lisa Aslo's Seminar and her recommending this group as one of the
> > > > Best Internet Resources for East European Genealogy.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > For years, I've been searching for relatives & information about my
> > > > paternal grandfather,
> > > >
> > > > FRANK TRISIK / TRISCIK , a Slovak Immigrant born Oct. 21, 1878-80.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > What I do know from documented sources/ records that I have:
> > > >
> > > > Oct 1900, FRANK TRISIK enlisted in the US Army in BRIDGEPORT,
> > > > CONNECTICUT USA & served in the 21st and 4th Infantries and in the
> > > > Philippine-American War.
> > > >
> > > > Oct. 1903, he was discharged from the US Army at FT. KEOGG, MONTANA,
> USA
> > > >
> > > > Aug.19,1905, married KATHERINE (KITTIE) LEGGETT, American, in AVERY,
> > > > IOWA.
> > > >
> > > > July 2,1907, son, GEORGE NATHAN TRISIK was born in IOWA.
> > > >
> > > > May 2, 1909, daughter, FLORENCE FERN TRISCIK was born in IOWA.
> > > >
> > > > Aug 2, 1911, son, CHARLES ERNEST TRISCIK, my father, was born in
> IOWA.
> > > >
> > > > Nov. 19, 1914, Frank's wife, Kittie Leggett Triscik, died giving
> > > > birth to daughter, Sarah, who also died 1914.
> > > >
> > > > APRIL 13, 1915, Frank Triscik and his attorney filed papers w/ the
> US
> > > > Dept of the Interior, Bureau of Pensions to have his US Military
> > > > Disability Pension of $6.00 a month increased due to increase
> medical
> > > > issues
> > > >
> > > > March 8, 1917, FRANK TRISIK is killed in a coal mining accident in
> > > > BIDWELL, IOWA, leaving my father and his bro and sister orphans. The
> 3
> > > > Triscik childen were placed in an orphanage in 1917.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > US census records (in Iowa 1910 & 1915) say that he was born in
> AUSTRIA
> > > > or AUST / POLISH and was ROMAN CATHOLIC.
> > > >
> > > > Marriage 1905 and death records say he was from AUSTRIA / HUNGARY.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > US army enlistment record said he was born in JERNE SWITZERLAND &
> > > > Military Pension records give his place of birth was JERNE AUSTRIA
> > > > HUNGARY. ( I have never found any village, town, nor canton called
> Jerne
> > > > in Switzerland & believe this info is incorrect.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I would like more information about my grandfather, FRANK TRISIK,
> > > > Oct.1878-81 - Feb. 8, 1917 in order to confirm the information that
> I
> > > > believe is correct regarding the below:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Confirmation of his date/ year of birth
> > > >
> > > > 2. Confirmation that he was born in JERNE, AUSTRIA / HUNGARY
> > > >
> > > > 3. Confirmation that ELIZABETH TRESCIK (1877-1931) who married
> ANDREW
> > > > TURAK (1872 - 1952) is FRANK TRISIK'S sister (they lived in the same
> > > > area of IOWA at the same time as FRANK TRISIK and his family did.
> Both
> > > > Elizabeth and Andrew also lived in PITTSBURGH, PA and both listed
> > > > YARONICE C SLOVAKIA as their birth places.
> > > >
> > > > 4. Confirmation of FRANK TRISIK's parents names as METZ OR NATHAN
> > > > TRISIK & ANNA UNDERICO. They were listed as being Frank's parents
> > > > from AUSTRIA on Frank's marriage certificate.
> > > >
> > > > 7. Any other relevant info regarding Slovak first name & spelling of
> > > > surname for FRANK TRISIK, when and where he came to the USA, when he
> was
> > > > Naturalized.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks so much,
> > > >
> > > > Bette Triscik
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betty,

In the Slovak Pride DB we have 2 people listing Ondercso from Jarovnice
get back to me if you would like their contact information.

helene
helenezx@...


--- On Sat, 1/26/13, htcstech <htcstech@...> wrote:

> From: htcstech <htcstech@...>
> Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: TRISIK/ TRISICK / TRESICK / TURAK relatives
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 3:56 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>       In Curt's later find, the record shows Ferencz
> with his father's name
>
> TRISCSIK Nejtusz.
>
>
>
> Both names appear to use Hungarian spelling. The CS and SZ
> blends.
>
> So TRIS-CSIK would of been pronounced TRISH-CHIK and NEJTUSZ
> as NAYTUS.
>
>
>
> Seems a close confirmation of your point:
>
> > > 4. Confirmation of FRANK TRISIK's parents
> names as METZ OR NATHAN
>
> > > TRISIK & ANNA UNDERICO. They were listed as being
> Frank's parents
>
> > > from AUSTRIA on Frank's marriage certificate.
>
>
>
> Although I have never heard of Nejtusz as a Christian name,
> it seems
>
> probable that Nathan=Nejtus.
>
>
>
> Peter M.
>
>
>
> On 27 January 2013 07:33, Carl carl.kotlarchik@...>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > **
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Bette, I'm not sure I understand Larry's
> comments but I did make a mistake
>
> > about the first baptism record I sent you. There is a
> second baptism record
>
> > for another Ferencz Triscsik who was born on October 1,
> 1879 in Jernye
>
> > (Jarovnice). This one is more likely your ancestor and
> the date of his
>
> > birth is more consistent with your information. sorry
> for my earlier
>
> > mistake. Here is a link to the record.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18045-83550-12?cc=1554443&wc=M9MJ-TSS\
:n1550137223
>
> >
>
> > CK
>
> >
>
> > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com,
> lkocik@... wrote:
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > Bette
>
> > >
>
> > > Â I think you should look seriously into what
> Frank mentioned.
>
> > >
>
> > > Â He has a way of looking at the big picture.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > Â Frank is also spelled Frantisek. Slovak, being
> a spoken language, is
>
> > more about how words sound than how they are put to
> paper.
>
> > >
>
> > > Â There are also problems translating Slavic
> languages  into English.
>
> > >
>
> > > Â  So, an immigrant, Â saying the word Frantisek
> could very easily have
>
> > been interpreted as Frank trisik.
>
> > >
>
> > > Â Maybe nothing is going to make much sense
> without some kind of
>
> > documentaion from the old country.
>
> > >
>
> > > Â larry
>
> > >
>
> > > Â
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > ----- Original Message -----
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > From: "Frank R Plichta"
>
> > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
>
> > > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 10:04:58 AM
>
> > > Subject: RE: [S-R] Re: TRISIK/ TRISICK / TRESICK /
> TURAK relatives
>
> > >
>
> > > Bette,
>
> > >
>
> > > Â
>
> > >
>
> > > While this may not mean much it struck me as
> unusual.
>
> > >
>
> > > Â
>
> > >
>
> > > You are looking for Frank Triscik.
>
> > >
>
> > > The Slovak name for Frank/Francis is Frantiscki.
>
> > >
>
> > > Â
>
> > >
>
> > > Maybe close and maybe no prize. Â Just an
> observation.
>
> > >
>
> > > Â
>
> > >
>
> > > Frank
>
> > >
>
> > > Â
>
> > >
>
> > > Â Â _____ Â
>
> > >
>
> > > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
>
> > On
>
> > > Behalf Of CurtB
>
> > > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 11:52 AM
>
> > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
>
> > > Subject: [S-R] Re: TRISIK/ TRISICK / TRESICK /
> TURAK relatives
>
> > >
>
> > > Â
>
> > >
>
> > > Â Â
>
> > >
>
> > > Bette,
>
> > > I forgot to mention that the name Triscik is still
> a common name in the
>
> > > village of Jarovnice. It is found in the census
> records and also in the
>
> > > Slovak online telephone book.
>
> > >
>
> > > Curt B.
>
> > >
>
> > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
>
> > > , "Bette" wrote:
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > > I'm so excited that I just found Slovak
> Roots after listening to
>
> > > > Lisa Aslo's Seminar and her recommending
> this group as one of the
>
> > > > Best Internet Resources for East European
> Genealogy.
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > > For years, I've been searching for
> relatives & information about my
>
> > > > paternal grandfather,
>
> > > >
>
> > > > FRANK TRISIK / TRISCIK , a Slovak Immigrant
> born Oct. 21, 1878-80.
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > > What I do know from documented sources/
> records that I have:
>
> > > >
>
> > > > Oct 1900, FRANK TRISIK enlisted in the US
> Army in BRIDGEPORT,
>
> > > > CONNECTICUT USA & served in the 21st and 4th
> Infantries and in the
>
> > > > Philippine-American War.
>
> > > >
>
> > > > Oct. 1903, he was discharged from the US Army
> at FT. KEOGG, MONTANA,
>
> > USA
>
> > > >
>
> > > > Aug.19,1905, married KATHERINE (KITTIE)
> LEGGETT, American, in AVERY,
>
> > > > IOWA.
>
> > > >
>
> > > > July 2,1907, son, GEORGE NATHAN TRISIK was
> born in IOWA.
>
> > > >
>
> > > > May 2, 1909, daughter, FLORENCE FERN TRISCIK
> was born in IOWA.
>
> > > >
>
> > > > Aug 2, 1911, son, CHARLES ERNEST TRISCIK, my
> father, was born in IOWA.
>
> > > >
>
> > > > Nov. 19, 1914, Frank's wife, Kittie
> Leggett Triscik, died giving
>
> > > > birth to daughter, Sarah, who also died
> 1914.
>
> > > >
>
> > > > APRIL 13, 1915, Frank Triscik and his
> attorney filed papers w/ the US
>
> > > > Dept of the Interior, Bureau of Pensions to
> have his US Military
>
> > > > Disability Pension of $6.00 a month increased
> due to increase medical
>
> > > > issues
>
> > > >
>
> > > > March 8, 1917, FRANK TRISIK is killed in a
> coal mining accident in
>
> > > > BIDWELL, IOWA, leaving my father and his bro
> and sister orphans. The 3
>
> > > > Triscik childen were placed in an orphanage
> in 1917.
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > > US census records (in Iowa 1910 & 1915) say
> that he was born in
>
> > AUSTRIA
>
> > > > or AUST / POLISH and was ROMAN CATHOLIC.
>
> > > >
>
> > > > Marriage 1905 and death records say he was
> from AUSTRIA / HUNGARY.
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > > US army enlistment record said he was born in
> JERNE SWITZERLAND &
>
> > > > Military Pension records give his place of
> birth was JERNE AUSTRIA
>
> > > > HUNGARY. ( I have never found any village,
> town, nor canton called
>
> > Jerne
>
> > > > in Switzerland & believe this info is
> incorrect.
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > > I would like more information about my
> grandfather, FRANK TRISIK,
>
> > > > Oct.1878-81 - Feb. 8, 1917 in order to
> confirm the information that I
>
> > > > believe is correct regarding the below:
>
> > > >
>
> > > > 1. Confirmation of his date/ year of birth
>
> > > >
>
> > > > 2. Confirmation that he was born in JERNE,
> AUSTRIA / HUNGARY
>
> > > >
>
> > > > 3. Confirmation that ELIZABETH TRESCIK
> (1877-1931) who married ANDREW
>
> > > > TURAK (1872 - 1952) is FRANK TRISIK'S
> sister (they lived in the same
>
> > > > area of IOWA at the same time as FRANK TRISIK
> and his family did. Both
>
> > > > Elizabeth and Andrew also lived in
> PITTSBURGH, PA and both listed
>
> > > > YARONICE C SLOVAKIA as their birth places.
>
> > > >
>
> > > > 4. Confirmation of FRANK TRISIK's parents
> names as METZ OR NATHAN
>
> > > > TRISIK & ANNA UNDERICO. They were listed as
> being Frank's parents
>
> > > > from AUSTRIA on Frank's marriage
> certificate.
>
> > > >
>
> > > > 7. Any other relevant info regarding Slovak
> first name & spelling of
>
> > > > surname for FRANK TRISIK, when and where he
> came to the USA, when he
>
> > was
>
> > > > Naturalized.
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > > Thanks so much,
>
> > > >
>
> > > > Bette Triscik
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Dear Martha:

I believe that the village of DUPLIN in the Presov region of Slovakia was
called Bányavölgy in Hungarian.  The Hungarian name means "Valley of the
Mine".  Here is a link to the Wikipedia page in Hungarian:

_http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A1nyav%C3%B6lgy_
(http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bányavölgy)

If you use Google.com to get to the Wikipedia page, Google should be able
to translate it automatically.  Otherwise, you can use Google translate to
do the same.  I have done a lot of historical research on a number of
villages in the territory of present-day Slovakia. For whatever reason,  when I
cannot locate the village websites, etc. under the Slovak name, I often  find
success locating information about the village under its Hungarian  name.

With regard to the village of LOZIN in Slovakia, you may need to do your
searching with the diacritical marks in its name -- _Ložín_
(https://maps.google.com/maps/place?ftid=0x47392b89ded85bdd:0x400f7d1c6974d80&q=\
lozin&hl=en&ve
d=0CA0Q-gswAA&sa=X&ei=zJ4EUbKbJeaEwQG2_IHIBQ&sig2=7SrTRRhwIS94iNPaPG9dig) .
   Here is a link to the page for LOZIN in Wikipedia:

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lo%C5%BE%C3%ADn_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ložín)

In regard to the name RAKOCZ, it appears to be a somewhat common name, so
you need to take care to make sure that you have the correct village.
There is one village which was called RAKOCZ in Hungarian that is known under
the present name RAKOVCIK in the SARIS region of Slovakia.  It is immediate
adjacent to and west of to the village of DUPLIN.  When searching for this
village online, you may need to use the name with it diacritical marks:
_Rakovčík_
(https://maps.google.com/maps/place?ftid=0x473e9e96e6c58bb9:0xf047b08722b5dc3d&q\
=rakovcik+slovakia&hl=en&ved=0CA0Q-gswAA&sa=X&ei=MKIEUcCPJqfywQHFp
YDwDg&sig2=9u1ghMNNSt-KQnoXgH7APg)

Here is a link to the Wikipedia page for RAKOVCIK:

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakov%C4%8D%C3%ADk_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakovčík)

Here is also a link to the village website:

_http://www.saris.eu.sk/rakovcik/_ (http://www.saris.eu.sk/rakovcik/)

Please be careful, however, because there is also another village, which
was known as RAKOCZ in Hungarian, and which is present known as RAKOVEC NAD
ONDAVOU (which is about 3 villages north of LUZIN).  Here is a link to the
Wikipedia page:

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakovec_nad_Ondavou_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakovec_nad_Ondavou)

Here is the link to the village website in Slovakia:

_http://www.rakovecnadondavou.ocu.sk/_
(http://www.rakovecnadondavou.ocu.sk/)

With regard to the village of RAKOCZ, you may have a bit of a puzzle on
your hands, and may need to research the records of both places.  Please be
very careful because sometimes certain surnames may appear in several places,
  and you want to be careful not to go on any wild goose chase.  Sometimes,
the genealogical puzzles can be fun; other times, they can be frustrating.
  I hope that this helps a little.


Best regards,

David


In a message dated 1/26/2013 5:23:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mandras@... writes:





Hi!

I noticed that someone posted a website for the town of  Jarovnice
(www.jarovnice.ocu.sk). I am wondering if anyone knows if there  are
websites for the towns of Lozin, Duplin and Rakocz? That is where my  ancestors
are from. I've searched the internet many times but haven't found  anything.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!

Martha  Andras







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Peter & David,

Yes - Duplin & Rakovcik are both in Saris.  I have been working on my family
tree for a long time and I do have my ancestors documented in both towns as well
as my husband's ancestors in Lozin (Zemplin County). In case there are any new
comers the names I am researching are PUNDCZAK (Duplin), KUNDRAT (Rakovcik) and
ANDRAS or ANDRASOV (Lozin or Suche).

Thank you for the suggestions regarding town websites. I will report back what I
find!  This group has been very helpful to me in the past and I do read every
post!

Martha

--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, david1law@... wrote:
>
> Dear Martha:
>
> I believe that the village of DUPLIN in the Presov region of Slovakia was
> called Bányavölgy in Hungarian.  The Hungarian name means "Valley of the
> Mine".  Here is a link to the Wikipedia page in Hungarian:
>
> _http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A1nyav%C3%B6lgy_
> (http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bányavölgy)
>
> If you use Google.com to get to the Wikipedia page, Google should be able
> to translate it automatically.  Otherwise, you can use Google translate to
> do the same.  I have done a lot of historical research on a number of
> villages in the territory of present-day Slovakia. For whatever reason,  when
I
> cannot locate the village websites, etc. under the Slovak name, I often  find
> success locating information about the village under its Hungarian  name.
>
> With regard to the village of LOZIN in Slovakia, you may need to do your
> searching with the diacritical marks in its name -- _Ložín_
>
(https://maps.google.com/maps/place?ftid=0x47392b89ded85bdd:0x400f7d1c6974d80&q=\
lozin&hl=en&ve
> d=0CA0Q-gswAA&sa=X&ei=zJ4EUbKbJeaEwQG2_IHIBQ&sig2=7SrTRRhwIS94iNPaPG9dig) .
>   Here is a link to the page for LOZIN in Wikipedia:
>
> _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lo%C5%BE%C3%ADn_
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ložín)
>
> In regard to the name RAKOCZ, it appears to be a somewhat common name, so
> you need to take care to make sure that you have the correct village.
> There is one village which was called RAKOCZ in Hungarian that is known under
> the present name RAKOVCIK in the SARIS region of Slovakia.  It is immediate
> adjacent to and west of to the village of DUPLIN.  When searching for this
> village online, you may need to use the name with it diacritical marks:
> _Rakovčík_
>
(https://maps.google.com/maps/place?ftid=0x473e9e96e6c58bb9:0xf047b08722b5dc3d&q\
=rakovcik+slovakia&hl=en&ved=0CA0Q-gswAA&sa=X&ei=MKIEUcCPJqfywQHFp
> YDwDg&sig2=9u1ghMNNSt-KQnoXgH7APg)
>
> Here is a link to the Wikipedia page for RAKOVCIK:
>
> _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakov%C4%8D%C3%ADk_
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakovčík)
>
> Here is also a link to the village website:
>
> _http://www.saris.eu.sk/rakovcik/_ (http://www.saris.eu.sk/rakovcik/)
>
> Please be careful, however, because there is also another village, which
> was known as RAKOCZ in Hungarian, and which is present known as RAKOVEC NAD
> ONDAVOU (which is about 3 villages north of LUZIN).  Here is a link to the
> Wikipedia page:
>
> _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakovec_nad_Ondavou_
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakovec_nad_Ondavou)
>
> Here is the link to the village website in Slovakia:
>
> _http://www.rakovecnadondavou.ocu.sk/_
> (http://www.rakovecnadondavou.ocu.sk/)
>
> With regard to the village of RAKOCZ, you may have a bit of a puzzle on
> your hands, and may need to research the records of both places.  Please be
> very careful because sometimes certain surnames may appear in several places,
>  and you want to be careful not to go on any wild goose chase.  Sometimes,
> the genealogical puzzles can be fun; other times, they can be frustrating.
>  I hope that this helps a little.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> David
>
>
> In a message dated 1/26/2013 5:23:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> mandras@... writes:
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi!
>
> I noticed that someone posted a website for the town of  Jarovnice
> (www.jarovnice.ocu.sk). I am wondering if anyone knows if there  are
> websites for the towns of Lozin, Duplin and Rakocz? That is where my 
ancestors
> are from. I've searched the internet many times but haven't found  anything.
>
> Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
>
> Martha  Andras
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Thanks Helene,
Yes I would like their contact info.
Thanks, Bette
--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, helene cincebeaux  wrote:
>
> Betty,
>
> In the Slovak Pride DB we have 2 people listing Ondercso from Jarovnice
> get back to me if you would like their contact information.
>
> helene
> helenezx@...
>
>
> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, htcstech  wrote:
>
> > From: htcstech
> > Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: TRISIK/ TRISICK / TRESICK / TURAK relatives
> > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 3:56 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >       In Curt's later find, the record shows Ferencz
> > with his father's name
> >
> > TRISCSIK Nejtusz.
> >
> >
> >
> > Both names appear to use Hungarian spelling. The CS and SZ
> > blends.
> >
> > So TRIS-CSIK would of been pronounced TRISH-CHIK and NEJTUSZ
> > as NAYTUS.
> >
> >
> >
> > Seems a close confirmation of your point:
> >
> > > > 4. Confirmation of FRANK TRISIK's parents
> > names as METZ OR NATHAN
> >
> > > > TRISIK & ANNA UNDERICO. They were listed as being
> > Frank's parents
> >
> > > > from AUSTRIA on Frank's marriage certificate.
> >
> >
> >
> > Although I have never heard of Nejtusz as a Christian name,
> > it seems
> >
> > probable that Nathan=Nejtus.
> >
> >
> >
> > Peter M.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 27 January 2013 07:33, Carl carl.kotlarchik@...>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > **
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Bette, I'm not sure I understand Larry's
> > comments but I did make a mistake
> >
> > > about the first baptism record I sent you. There is a
> > second baptism record
> >
> > > for another Ferencz Triscsik who was born on October 1,
> > 1879 in Jernye
> >
> > > (Jarovnice). This one is more likely your ancestor and
> > the date of his
> >
> > > birth is more consistent with your information. sorry
> > for my earlier
> >
> > > mistake. Here is a link to the record.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18045-83550-12?cc=1554443&wc=M9MJ-TSS\
:n1550137223
> >
> > >
> >
> > > CK
> >
> > >
> >
> > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com,
> > lkocik@ wrote:
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Bette
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â I think you should look seriously into what
> > Frank mentioned.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â He has a way of looking at the big picture.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â Frank is also spelled Frantisek. Slovak, being
> > a spoken language, is
> >
> > > more about how words sound than how they are put to
> > paper.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â There are also problems translating Slavic
> > languages  into English.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â  So, an immigrant, Â saying the word Frantisek
> > could very easily have
> >
> > > been interpreted as Frank trisik.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â Maybe nothing is going to make much sense
> > without some kind of
> >
> > > documentaion from the old country.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â larry
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > From: "Frank R Plichta"
> >
> > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > > > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 10:04:58 AM
> >
> > > > Subject: RE: [S-R] Re: TRISIK/ TRISICK / TRESICK /
> > TURAK relatives
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Bette,
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > While this may not mean much it struck me as
> > unusual.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > You are looking for Frank Triscik.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > The Slovak name for Frank/Francis is Frantiscki.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Maybe close and maybe no prize. Â Just an
> > observation.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Frank
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â Â _____ Â
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
> >
> > > On
> >
> > > > Behalf Of CurtB
> >
> > > > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 11:52 AM
> >
> > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > > > Subject: [S-R] Re: TRISIK/ TRISICK / TRESICK /
> > TURAK relatives
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â Â
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Bette,
> >
> > > > I forgot to mention that the name Triscik is still
> > a common name in the
> >
> > > > village of Jarovnice. It is found in the census
> > records and also in the
> >
> > > > Slovak online telephone book.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Curt B.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > > > , "Bette" wrote:
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > I'm so excited that I just found Slovak
> > Roots after listening to
> >
> > > > > Lisa Aslo's Seminar and her recommending
> > this group as one of the
> >
> > > > > Best Internet Resources for East European
> > Genealogy.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > For years, I've been searching for
> > relatives & information about my
> >
> > > > > paternal grandfather,
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > FRANK TRISIK / TRISCIK , a Slovak Immigrant
> > born Oct. 21, 1878-80.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > What I do know from documented sources/
> > records that I have:
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Oct 1900, FRANK TRISIK enlisted in the US
> > Army in BRIDGEPORT,
> >
> > > > > CONNECTICUT USA & served in the 21st and 4th
> > Infantries and in the
> >
> > > > > Philippine-American War.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Oct. 1903, he was discharged from the US Army
> > at FT. KEOGG, MONTANA,
> >
> > > USA
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Aug.19,1905, married KATHERINE (KITTIE)
> > LEGGETT, American, in AVERY,
> >
> > > > > IOWA.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > July 2,1907, son, GEORGE NATHAN TRISIK was
> > born in IOWA.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > May 2, 1909, daughter, FLORENCE FERN TRISCIK
> > was born in IOWA.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Aug 2, 1911, son, CHARLES ERNEST TRISCIK, my
> > father, was born in IOWA.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Nov. 19, 1914, Frank's wife, Kittie
> > Leggett Triscik, died giving
> >
> > > > > birth to daughter, Sarah, who also died
> > 1914.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > APRIL 13, 1915, Frank Triscik and his
> > attorney filed papers w/ the US
> >
> > > > > Dept of the Interior, Bureau of Pensions to
> > have his US Military
> >
> > > > > Disability Pension of $6.00 a month increased
> > due to increase medical
> >
> > > > > issues
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > March 8, 1917, FRANK TRISIK is killed in a
> > coal mining accident in
> >
> > > > > BIDWELL, IOWA, leaving my father and his bro
> > and sister orphans. The 3
> >
> > > > > Triscik childen were placed in an orphanage
> > in 1917.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > US census records (in Iowa 1910 & 1915) say
> > that he was born in
> >
> > > AUSTRIA
> >
> > > > > or AUST / POLISH and was ROMAN CATHOLIC.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Marriage 1905 and death records say he was
> > from AUSTRIA / HUNGARY.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > US army enlistment record said he was born in
> > JERNE SWITZERLAND &
> >
> > > > > Military Pension records give his place of
> > birth was JERNE AUSTRIA
> >
> > > > > HUNGARY. ( I have never found any village,
> > town, nor canton called
> >
> > > Jerne
> >
> > > > > in Switzerland & believe this info is
> > incorrect.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > I would like more information about my
> > grandfather, FRANK TRISIK,
> >
> > > > > Oct.1878-81 - Feb. 8, 1917 in order to
> > confirm the information that I
> >
> > > > > believe is correct regarding the below:
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > 1. Confirmation of his date/ year of birth
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > 2. Confirmation that he was born in JERNE,
> > AUSTRIA / HUNGARY
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > 3. Confirmation that ELIZABETH TRESCIK
> > (1877-1931) who married ANDREW
> >
> > > > > TURAK (1872 - 1952) is FRANK TRISIK'S
> > sister (they lived in the same
> >
> > > > > area of IOWA at the same time as FRANK TRISIK
> > and his family did. Both
> >
> > > > > Elizabeth and Andrew also lived in
> > PITTSBURGH, PA and both listed
> >
> > > > > YARONICE C SLOVAKIA as their birth places.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > 4. Confirmation of FRANK TRISIK's parents
> > names as METZ OR NATHAN
> >
> > > > > TRISIK & ANNA UNDERICO. They were listed as
> > being Frank's parents
> >
> > > > > from AUSTRIA on Frank's marriage
> > certificate.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > 7. Any other relevant info regarding Slovak
> > first name & spelling of
> >
> > > > > surname for FRANK TRISIK, when and where he
> > came to the USA, when he
> >
> > > was
> >
> > > > > Naturalized.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Thanks so much,
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Bette Triscik
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> > > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

I know a guy and he is searching a family named TRUSNIK

You think it can be a variation?????





________________________________
From: Bette <bettetina1@...>
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, January 27, 2013 1:48:42 PM
Subject: [S-R] Re: TRISIK/ TRISICK / TRESICK / TURAK relatives


Thanks Helene,
Yes I would like their contact info.
Thanks, Bette
--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, helene cincebeaux  wrote:
>
> Betty,
>
> In the Slovak Pride DB we have 2 people listing Ondercso from Jarovnice
> get back to me if you would like their contact information.
>
> helene
> helenezx@...
>
>
> --- On Sat, 1/26/13, htcstech  wrote:
>
> > From: htcstech
> > Subject: Re: [S-R] Re: TRISIK/ TRISICK / TRESICK / TURAK relatives
> > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Saturday, January 26, 2013, 3:56 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Â
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >       In Curt's later find, the record shows Ferencz
> > with his father's name
> >
> > TRISCSIK Nejtusz.
> >
> >
> >
> > Both names appear to use Hungarian spelling. The CS and SZ
> > blends.
> >
> > So TRIS-CSIK would of been pronounced TRISH-CHIK and NEJTUSZ
> > as NAYTUS.
> >
> >
> >
> > Seems a close confirmation of your point:
> >
> > > > 4. Confirmation of FRANK TRISIK's parents
> > names as METZ OR NATHAN
> >
> > > > TRISIK & ANNA UNDERICO. They were listed as being
> > Frank's parents
> >
> > > > from AUSTRIA on Frank's marriage certificate.
> >
> >
> >
> > Although I have never heard of Nejtusz as a Christian name,
> > it seems
> >
> > probable that Nathan=Nejtus.
> >
> >
> >
> > Peter M.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 27 January 2013 07:33, Carl carl.kotlarchik@...>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > **
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Bette, I'm not sure I understand Larry's
> > comments but I did make a mistake
> >
> > > about the first baptism record I sent you. There is a
> > second baptism record
> >
> > > for another Ferencz Triscsik who was born on October 1,
> > 1879 in Jernye
> >
> > > (Jarovnice). This one is more likely your ancestor and
> > the date of his
> >
> > > birth is more consistent with your information. sorry
> > for my earlier
> >
> > > mistake. Here is a link to the record.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
>https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18045-83550-12?cc=1554443&wc=M9MJ-TS\
S:n1550137223
>
> >
> > >
> >
> > > CK
> >
> > >
> >
> > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com,
> > lkocik@ wrote:
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Bette
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â I think you should look seriously into what
> > Frank mentioned.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â He has a way of looking at the big picture.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â Frank is also spelled Frantisek. Slovak, being
> > a spoken language, is
> >
> > > more about how words sound than how they are put to
> > paper.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â There are also problems translating Slavic
> > languages  into English.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â  So, an immigrant, Â saying the word Frantisek
> > could very easily have
> >
> > > been interpreted as Frank trisik.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â Maybe nothing is going to make much sense
> > without some kind of
> >
> > > documentaion from the old country.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â larry
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > From: "Frank R Plichta"
> >
> > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > > > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 10:04:58 AM
> >
> > > > Subject: RE: [S-R] Re: TRISIK/ TRISICK / TRESICK /
> > TURAK relatives
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Bette,
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > While this may not mean much it struck me as
> > unusual.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > You are looking for Frank Triscik.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > The Slovak name for Frank/Francis is Frantiscki.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Maybe close and maybe no prize. Â Just an
> > observation.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Frank
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â Â _____ Â
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]
> >
> > > On
> >
> > > > Behalf Of CurtB
> >
> > > > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 11:52 AM
> >
> > > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > > > Subject: [S-R] Re: TRISIK/ TRISICK / TRESICK /
> > TURAK relatives
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Â Â
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Bette,
> >
> > > > I forgot to mention that the name Triscik is still
> > a common name in the
> >
> > > > village of Jarovnice. It is found in the census
> > records and also in the
> >
> > > > Slovak online telephone book.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Curt B.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > > > , "Bette" wrote:
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > I'm so excited that I just found Slovak
> > Roots after listening to
> >
> > > > > Lisa Aslo's Seminar and her recommending
> > this group as one of the
> >
> > > > > Best Internet Resources for East European
> > Genealogy.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > For years, I've been searching for
> > relatives & information about my
> >
> > > > > paternal grandfather,
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > FRANK TRISIK / TRISCIK , a Slovak Immigrant
> > born Oct. 21, 1878-80.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > What I do know from documented sources/
> > records that I have:
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Oct 1900, FRANK TRISIK enlisted in the US
> > Army in BRIDGEPORT,
> >
> > > > > CONNECTICUT USA & served in the 21st and 4th
> > Infantries and in the
> >
> > > > > Philippine-American War.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Oct. 1903, he was discharged from the US Army
> > at FT. KEOGG, MONTANA,
> >
> > > USA
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Aug.19,1905, married KATHERINE (KITTIE)
> > LEGGETT, American, in AVERY,
> >
> > > > > IOWA.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > July 2,1907, son, GEORGE NATHAN TRISIK was
> > born in IOWA.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > May 2, 1909, daughter, FLORENCE FERN TRISCIK
> > was born in IOWA.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Aug 2, 1911, son, CHARLES ERNEST TRISCIK, my
> > father, was born in IOWA.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Nov. 19, 1914, Frank's wife, Kittie
> > Leggett Triscik, died giving
> >
> > > > > birth to daughter, Sarah, who also died
> > 1914.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > APRIL 13, 1915, Frank Triscik and his
> > attorney filed papers w/ the US
> >
> > > > > Dept of the Interior, Bureau of Pensions to
> > have his US Military
> >
> > > > > Disability Pension of $6.00 a month increased
> > due to increase medical
> >
> > > > > issues
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > March 8, 1917, FRANK TRISIK is killed in a
> > coal mining accident in
> >
> > > > > BIDWELL, IOWA, leaving my father and his bro
> > and sister orphans. The 3
> >
> > > > > Triscik childen were placed in an orphanage
> > in 1917.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > US census records (in Iowa 1910 & 1915) say
> > that he was born in
> >
> > > AUSTRIA
> >
> > > > > or AUST / POLISH and was ROMAN CATHOLIC.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Marriage 1905 and death records say he was
> > from AUSTRIA / HUNGARY.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > US army enlistment record said he was born in
> > JERNE SWITZERLAND &
> >
> > > > > Military Pension records give his place of
> > birth was JERNE AUSTRIA
> >
> > > > > HUNGARY. ( I have never found any village,
> > town, nor canton called
> >
> > > Jerne
> >
> > > > > in Switzerland & believe this info is
> > incorrect.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > I would like more information about my
> > grandfather, FRANK TRISIK,
> >
> > > > > Oct.1878-81 - Feb. 8, 1917 in order to
> > confirm the information that I
> >
> > > > > believe is correct regarding the below:
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > 1. Confirmation of his date/ year of birth
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > 2. Confirmation that he was born in JERNE,
> > AUSTRIA / HUNGARY
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > 3. Confirmation that ELIZABETH TRESCIK
> > (1877-1931) who married ANDREW
> >
> > > > > TURAK (1872 - 1952) is FRANK TRISIK'S
> > sister (they lived in the same
> >
> > > > > area of IOWA at the same time as FRANK TRISIK
> > and his family did. Both
> >
> > > > > Elizabeth and Andrew also lived in
> > PITTSBURGH, PA and both listed
> >
> > > > > YARONICE C SLOVAKIA as their birth places.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > 4. Confirmation of FRANK TRISIK's parents
> > names as METZ OR NATHAN
> >
> > > > > TRISIK & ANNA UNDERICO. They were listed as
> > being Frank's parents
> >
> > > > > from AUSTRIA on Frank's marriage
> > certificate.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > 7. Any other relevant info regarding Slovak
> > first name & spelling of
> >
> > > > > surname for FRANK TRISIK, when and where he
> > came to the USA, when he
> >
> > > was
> >
> > > > > Naturalized.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Thanks so much,
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Bette Triscik
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> > > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

How do I step by step access the 1869 Hungarian census for the town of Hnilcik?
Thanks,
Karen



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1) Go to https://familysearch.org/#startl, click on Continental Europe in
location list.
2) https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1®ion=EUROPE, in
PLACE list on left click on Slovakia (2)
3) https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1&countryId=1927146, on
Slovakia, Census, 1869  Browse Images  26 Jun 2012 click on Browse Images.
4)
https://familysearch.org/search/image/index#uri=https%3A%2F%2Ffamilysearch.org%2\
Frecords%2Fcollection%2F1986782%2Fwaypoints, This brings up the 10 Hungarian
counties that the census can be searched.

Hnilčík SN/KI spiš.
1863–1900 Kishnilec, 1902–1913 Szepespatak, 1920– Hnilčík,    Hnilcik is
in the Hungarian county of Spis. Spis is not on the list.
There may be more Hungarian census material available in the Hungarian National
Archives but details on additional census records have not been determined. You
may wish to try writing to the Hungarian archives with a specific request:

Magyar Országos Levéltár
(Hungarian National Archives)
1250 Budapest I
Bécsi kapu tér 2-4
Hungary

You can also contact the Slovak Archive in Levoca:
http://www.slovakia.culturalprofiles.net/?id=3592


https://familysearch.org/search/image/index#uri=https%3A%2F%2Ffamilysearch.org%2\
Frecords%2Fwaypoint%2FM9MJ-KGF%3A1244455126%3Fcc%3D1554443 , Baptisms,
marriages, deaths (Krsty, manželstvá, úmrtia) 1810-1897
The link is for the records for Hnilcik, which, as you see, are for 1810 to
1897.




From: karen lovadina
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 10:53 AM
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [S-R] Family Search website


How do I step by step access the 1869 Hungarian census for the town of Hnilcik?
Thanks,
Karen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided to finally
take a look at the 1869 census.  I think I have found my great-great-grandmother
and her family - Marta Guman with her parents Janos and Marta.

My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc. goes with her
family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it (image 139)?  I'm
having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if there is any
notation saying which is which anyway.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-\
CZP:1513958199

A few more questions, if I may.  How do I assess the other family in the house -
Gyorgy Guman?  I thought at first he might be Janos' brother. He is born the
same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose they could be twins, the
same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are cousins instead.  I guess
there really is no way to know for sure anyway...

Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family?  The town is
right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a birth year of 1862;
here it is 1860.  I estimated her parents to be born in 1830, and here they are
1825 and 1822, which would fit.)  I have no other info regarding siblings, etc.,
and the mother's maiden name is not given, so how sure can I be this is my
family?

Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column entries, it would
be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty well, and the entries
for religion and marital status, but google translate is the pits, quite
frankly.

Thank you for any help!
Debbie

About 1869 Census:
Census of Residents:  The leftmost two columns (0 and 1) simply represent the
house number, and numbered lines for each individual recorded.
Column 2 lists the names of the people. The instructions are simply a
long-winded way of saying count everyone who lives at the house.

Column 3 specifies the sex of each person (ferfi = male and nö = female); and

Column 4 specifies the birth year of each person.

Column 5 gives the religion of each individual.

Column 6 is the marital status of each individual [nös = with wife; ferjes =
with husband; hajadon = maiden; nötlen = bachelor; özvégy = widow/er might
also be found.]

Column 7 lists the office(s) held.

Column 8 identifies the type of work performed; telkes, a smallholder (ie.
peasant farmer); telkes seged helper to the smallholder; háztars, a
housekeeper; seged -- ie. help out on the farm/house; éves szolga, a year's
servant (presumably that's the duration of being hired out) and the children in
school, they would probably be listed as students (tanár) .

Column 9 is birthplace.

Column 10 is citizenship, helybeli (local) rather than idegen (foreign).

Columns 11 and 12 relate to whether the persons were at home or away at the time
of the census, with special instructions for those who had been away for more
than a month.

Column 13 relates to literacy -- on the left able to read, on the right able to
read and write.

Column 14 was reserved for notes (jegyzet).

Inventory of Livestock: Horses (ló) are grouped into stallions (csödör),
mares (kancza), geldings (herélt), and foals (csikó) under three years. The
three categories under each of the first three groups are heavy (nehéz) and
light (könnyü) species (fajta) and the total (összesen) for the group.  The
next two columns are for mules (öszvér) and donkeys (szamár).

The second large grouping is for horned cattle (szarvasmaha) which are separated
into Hungarian (magyar) and Swiss (svájczi) and buffalo (bivaly). The first two
of these categories are divided into bulls (bika), cows (tehen), oxen (ökör),
and calves (borju) under three years.

The next two columns are for sheep (juh). They are categorized as either
"select" (nemesitett) or "common" (közönséges). This farm had six common
sheep. The last three columns are for goats (kecske), pigs (sertés)  and
finally beehives (méhkas).

Housing Facilities: Following the identification of the town, and the form
headings, is a place for the street address (utcza -- note old spelling of utca)
or the house number (házszám). A street address would only be used in larger
towns, small villages used house numbers.

Does the house have? (A lakás rooms): a cellar (pinczében); a ground floor
(földszint); a loft (félemeleten); how many upper stories (hányadik
emeleten); an attic (padlácson).

The house is made up of how many? sleeping room (szoba); pantry (kamra); living
room (elöszoba); and kitchen (konyha).

  Next is a statement that the house is used only for living (lakásra) -- ie.
not for business. Then there is a question concerning additional facilities and
buildings used for a business. Business-related facilities: shop or store
(bolt); pantry (kamra); cellar (pinczér); implement shed (félszer szin);
storehouse (raktár); stall (iztállö); sheepfold (akol); barn (csür). In all
probability the women did the cooking in the shed, which explains the lack of a
kitchen in the house in some houses.













From: deeellessbee
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 4:47 PM
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which family


Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided to finally
take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my great-great-grandmother
and her family - Marta Guman with her parents Janos and Marta.

My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc. goes with her
family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it (image 139)? I'm
having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if there is any
notation saying which is which anyway.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-\
CZP:1513958199

A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family in the house -
Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos' brother. He is born the same
year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose they could be twins, the same
birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are cousins instead. I guess there
really is no way to know for sure anyway...

Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family? The town is
right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a birth year of 1862;
here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born in 1830, and here they are
1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other info regarding siblings, etc.,
and the mother's maiden name is not given, so how sure can I be this is my
family?

Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column entries, it would
be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty well, and the entries
for religion and marital status, but google translate is the pits, quite
frankly.

Thank you for any help!
Debbie





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michael, thank you for that detailed answer - if it isn't already, that post
(your answer) should be somewhere permanent on this site for people to refer to!
I appreciate the time you took to type all that information.

But my main question was, which page goes with my family?  It appears to me
there are two pages/images for each family. There is the page with the listing
of names, and then there is the two-paged sheet with the questions regarding the
livestock inventory and the housing description.

My question was, how do I know which livestock inventory/housing description
goes with the list of names?  Is it the one before the list of names, or the one
after it? I can't seem to find any indentifying info on the inventory/housing
sheet that links it to the family.

Thanks!
Debbie

--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "MGMojher"  wrote:
>
> About 1869 Census:
> Census of Residents:  The leftmost two columns (0 and 1) simply represent the
house number, and numbered lines for each individual recorded.
> Column 2 lists the names of the people. The instructions are simply a
long-winded way of saying count everyone who lives at the house.
>
> Column 3 specifies the sex of each person (ferfi = male and nö = female); and
>
> Column 4 specifies the birth year of each person.
>
> Column 5 gives the religion of each individual.
>
> Column 6 is the marital status of each individual [nös = with wife; ferjes =
with husband; hajadon = maiden; nötlen = bachelor; özvégy = widow/er might
also be found.]
>
> Column 7 lists the office(s) held.
>
> Column 8 identifies the type of work performed; telkes, a smallholder (ie.
peasant farmer); telkes seged helper to the smallholder; háztars, a
housekeeper; seged -- ie. help out on the farm/house; éves szolga, a year's
servant (presumably that's the duration of being hired out) and the children in
school, they would probably be listed as students (tanár) .
>
> Column 9 is birthplace.
>
> Column 10 is citizenship, helybeli (local) rather than idegen (foreign).
>
> Columns 11 and 12 relate to whether the persons were at home or away at the
time of the census, with special instructions for those who had been away for
more than a month.
>
> Column 13 relates to literacy -- on the left able to read, on the right able
to read and write.
>
> Column 14 was reserved for notes (jegyzet).
>
> Inventory of Livestock: Horses (ló) are grouped into stallions (csödör),
mares (kancza), geldings (herélt), and foals (csikó) under three years. The
three categories under each of the first three groups are heavy (nehéz) and
light (könnyü) species (fajta) and the total (összesen) for the group.  The
next two columns are for mules (öszvér) and donkeys (szamár).
>
> The second large grouping is for horned cattle (szarvasmaha) which are
separated into Hungarian (magyar) and Swiss (svájczi) and buffalo (bivaly). The
first two of these categories are divided into bulls (bika), cows (tehen), oxen
(ökör), and calves (borju) under three years.
>
> The next two columns are for sheep (juh). They are categorized as either
"select" (nemesitett) or "common" (közönséges). This farm had six common
sheep. The last three columns are for goats (kecske), pigs (sertés)  and
finally beehives (méhkas).
>
> Housing Facilities: Following the identification of the town, and the form
headings, is a place for the street address (utcza -- note old spelling of utca)
or the house number (házszám). A street address would only be used in larger
towns, small villages used house numbers.
>
> Does the house have? (A lakás rooms): a cellar (pinczében); a ground floor
(földszint); a loft (félemeleten); how many upper stories (hányadik
emeleten); an attic (padlácson).
>
> The house is made up of how many? sleeping room (szoba); pantry (kamra);
living room (elöszoba); and kitchen (konyha).
>
>  Next is a statement that the house is used only for living (lakásra) -- ie.
not for business. Then there is a question concerning additional facilities and
buildings used for a business. Business-related facilities: shop or store
(bolt); pantry (kamra); cellar (pinczér); implement shed (félszer szin);
storehouse (raktár); stall (iztállö); sheepfold (akol); barn (csür). In all
probability the women did the cooking in the shed, which explains the lack of a
kitchen in the house in some houses.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: deeellessbee
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 4:47 PM
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which family
>
>
> Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided to finally
take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my great-great-grandmother
and her family - Marta Guman with her parents Janos and Marta.
>
> My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc. goes with her
family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it (image 139)? I'm
having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if there is any
notation saying which is which anyway.
>
>
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-\
CZP:1513958199
>
> A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family in the house
- Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos' brother. He is born the
same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose they could be twins, the
same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are cousins instead. I guess
there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
>
> Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family? The town is
right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a birth year of 1862;
here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born in 1830, and here they are
1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other info regarding siblings, etc.,
and the mother's maiden name is not given, so how sure can I be this is my
family?
>
> Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column entries, it
would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty well, and the
entries for religion and marital status, but google translate is the pits, quite
frankly.
>
> Thank you for any help!
> Debbie
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I would say that Gyorgy was the father of Maria and Mihaly - he was Ozvegy
- or a widower, working on the land.
All are local. Only Marta can read/write, all the rest can't.
Here is the rest as I see it:
Janos is hazas - 'married' 6th numbered column; telkes - has a lot (parcel
of land); foldmuves (foldmuveles) - 'tiller of the soil'; vagas Mikilos -
is the name of the village I presume, though in reverse order of the title
page.
Marta is the wife - 'neje' - and ferjes - 'has a husband'
Anna - leany 'young woman' - hajadon - unmarried
Marta - (can't read the note but I presume it means girl) -
Gyorgy - as above
Maria - leany - hajadon
Mihaly - fia - his (Gyorgy's boy)

All seem to work the land as there is no other distinction made for
employment.

The previous page describes the home:
They lived in number 68
Foldszint - single storey
Szoba - 1 room
Kamra - A pantry
Eloszoba - a hall or vestibule - commonly a sunroom.
Raktar - a storeroom
Csur - a barn.

Hope that helps

Peter M.







On 29 January 2013 11:47, deeellessbee <deeellessbee@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided to
> finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
> great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her parents Janos
> and Marta.
>
> My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc. goes with
> her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it (image 139)?
> I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if there is
> any notation saying which is which anyway.
>
>
>
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-\
CZP:1513958199
>
> A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family in the
> house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos' brother. He is
> born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose they could
> be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are cousins
> instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
>
> Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family? The
> town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a birth
> year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born in 1830,
> and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other info
> regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not given, so how
> sure can I be this is my family?
>
> Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column entries, it
> would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty well, and
> the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate is the
> pits, quite frankly.
>
> Thank you for any help!
> Debbie
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ok. image 137 right side is the house and description, 138 about the
inhabitants, 139 left side is the livestock etc. They had 1 cow - (tehen).

Peter M.

On 29 January 2013 12:53, deeellessbee <deeellessbee@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Michael, thank you for that detailed answer - if it isn't already, that
> post (your answer) should be somewhere permanent on this site for people to
> refer to! I appreciate the time you took to type all that information.
>
> But my main question was, which page goes with my family? It appears to me
> there are two pages/images for each family. There is the page with the
> listing of names, and then there is the two-paged sheet with the questions
> regarding the livestock inventory and the housing description.
>
> My question was, how do I know which livestock inventory/housing
> description goes with the list of names? Is it the one before the list of
> names, or the one after it? I can't seem to find any indentifying info on
> the inventory/housing sheet that links it to the family.
>
> Thanks!
> Debbie
>
>
> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "MGMojher" wrote:
> >
> > About 1869 Census:
> > Census of Residents: The leftmost two columns (0 and 1) simply represent
> the house number, and numbered lines for each individual recorded.
> > Column 2 lists the names of the people. The instructions are simply a
> long-winded way of saying count everyone who lives at the house.
> >
> > Column 3 specifies the sex of each person (ferfi = male and nö =
> female); and
> >
> > Column 4 specifies the birth year of each person.
> >
> > Column 5 gives the religion of each individual.
> >
> > Column 6 is the marital status of each individual [nös = with wife;
> ferjes = with husband; hajadon = maiden; nötlen = bachelor; özvégy =
> widow/er might also be found.]
> >
> > Column 7 lists the office(s) held.
> >
> > Column 8 identifies the type of work performed; telkes, a smallholder
> (ie. peasant farmer); telkes seged helper to the smallholder; háztars, a
> housekeeper; seged -- ie. help out on the farm/house; éves szolga, a
> year's servant (presumably that's the duration of being hired out) and the
> children in school, they would probably be listed as students (tanár) .
>
> >
> > Column 9 is birthplace.
> >
> > Column 10 is citizenship, helybeli (local) rather than idegen (foreign).
> >
> > Columns 11 and 12 relate to whether the persons were at home or away at
> the time of the census, with special instructions for those who had been
> away for more than a month.
> >
> > Column 13 relates to literacy -- on the left able to read, on the right
> able to read and write.
> >
> > Column 14 was reserved for notes (jegyzet).
> >
> > Inventory of Livestock: Horses (ló) are grouped into stallions
> (csödör), mares (kancza), geldings (herélt), and foals (csikó)
under
> three years. The three categories under each of the first three groups are
> heavy (nehéz) and light (könnyü) species (fajta) and the total
> (összesen) for the group. The next two columns are for mules (öszvér)
> and donkeys (szamár).
> >
> > The second large grouping is for horned cattle (szarvasmaha) which are
> separated into Hungarian (magyar) and Swiss (svájczi) and buffalo
> (bivaly). The first two of these categories are divided into bulls (bika),
> cows (tehen), oxen (ökör), and calves (borju) under three years.
> >
> > The next two columns are for sheep (juh). They are categorized as either
> "select" (nemesitett) or "common" (közönséges). This farm had six
common
> sheep. The last three columns are for goats (kecske), pigs (sertés) and
> finally beehives (méhkas).
> >
> > Housing Facilities: Following the identification of the town, and the
> form headings, is a place for the street address (utcza -- note old
> spelling of utca) or the house number (házszám). A street address would
> only be used in larger towns, small villages used house numbers.
> >
> > Does the house have? (A lakás rooms): a cellar (pinczében); a ground
> floor (földszint); a loft (félemeleten); how many upper stories
> (hányadik emeleten); an attic (padlácson).
> >
> > The house is made up of how many? sleeping room (szoba); pantry (kamra);
> living room (elöszoba); and kitchen (konyha).
> >
> > Next is a statement that the house is used only for living (lakásra) --
> ie. not for business. Then there is a question concerning additional
> facilities and buildings used for a business. Business-related facilities:
> shop or store (bolt); pantry (kamra); cellar (pinczér); implement shed
> (félszer szin); storehouse (raktár); stall (iztállö); sheepfold
(akol);
> barn (csür). In all probability the women did the cooking in the shed,
> which explains the lack of a kitchen in the house in some houses.
>  >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: deeellessbee
> > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 4:47 PM
> > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which
> family
> >
> >
> > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided to
> finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
> great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her parents Janos
> and Marta.
> >
> > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc. goes
> with her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it (image
> 139)? I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if
> there is any notation saying which is which anyway.
> >
> >
>
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-\
CZP:1513958199
> >
> > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family in the
> house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos' brother. He is
> born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose they could
> be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are cousins
> instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
> >
> > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family? The
> town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a birth
> year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born in 1830,
> and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other info
> regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not given, so how
> sure can I be this is my family?
> >
> > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column entries,
> it would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty well, and
> the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate is the
> pits, quite frankly.
> >
> > Thank you for any help!
> > Debbie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Peter thanks for that help.  Thanks especially for the "has a lot/parcel of
land" - my translation only said "lot" and while I figured it meant he had some
land, I wasn't quite sure. And I couldn't figure out the handwriting on the
foldumoves - nothing was working in google translate for that one! Thanks! What
do you think the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos is?

After my original post, I looked again and realized that the notation for Marta
Jr. does not look like "leany" which seems to be the regular notation for
daughter/girl. I'm still trying to decide if the word after her name is
something different or if the enumerator just got lazy.  I do hope Marta is the
daughter of Janos or this may not be my family.

Thanks!
Debbie


--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech  wrote:
>
> I would say that Gyorgy was the father of Maria and Mihaly - he was Ozvegy
> - or a widower, working on the land.
> All are local. Only Marta can read/write, all the rest can't.
> Here is the rest as I see it:
> Janos is hazas - 'married' 6th numbered column; telkes - has a lot (parcel
> of land); foldmuves (foldmuveles) - 'tiller of the soil'; vagas Mikilos -
> is the name of the village I presume, though in reverse order of the title
> page.
> Marta is the wife - 'neje' - and ferjes - 'has a husband'
> Anna - leany 'young woman' - hajadon - unmarried
> Marta - (can't read the note but I presume it means girl) -
> Gyorgy - as above
> Maria - leany - hajadon
> Mihaly - fia - his (Gyorgy's boy)
>
> All seem to work the land as there is no other distinction made for
> employment.
>
> The previous page describes the home:
> They lived in number 68
> Foldszint - single storey
> Szoba - 1 room
> Kamra - A pantry
> Eloszoba - a hall or vestibule - commonly a sunroom.
> Raktar - a storeroom
> Csur - a barn.
>
> Hope that helps
>
> Peter M.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 29 January 2013 11:47, deeellessbee  wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided to
> > finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
> > great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her parents Janos
> > and Marta.
> >
> > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc. goes with
> > her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it (image 139)?
> > I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if there is
> > any notation saying which is which anyway.
> >
> >
> >
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-\
CZP:1513958199
> >
> > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family in the
> > house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos' brother. He is
> > born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose they could
> > be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are cousins
> > instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
> >
> > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family? The
> > town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a birth
> > year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born in 1830,
> > and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other info
> > regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not given, so how
> > sure can I be this is my family?
> >
> > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column entries, it
> > would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty well, and
> > the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate is the
> > pits, quite frankly.
> >
> > Thank you for any help!
> > Debbie
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

On a baptismal record under the column where it says religion and conditio,�
some records say "mont" and some say"pleb".� What do these mean?
Karen



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ahhh... I see.  Can I ask how you knew that, Peter?  Did I miss something
somewhere on the form? Or (more likely) should I have read something somewhere
*before* I started browsing? In hindsight, it kind of makes sense, as it is in a
logical order, but how did you know?

Thanks again!
Debbie

--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech  wrote:
>
> Ok. image 137 right side is the house and description, 138 about the
> inhabitants, 139 left side is the livestock etc. They had 1 cow - (tehen).
>
> Peter M.
>
> On 29 January 2013 12:53, deeellessbee  wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Michael, thank you for that detailed answer - if it isn't already, that
> > post (your answer) should be somewhere permanent on this site for people to
> > refer to! I appreciate the time you took to type all that information.
> >
> > But my main question was, which page goes with my family? It appears to me
> > there are two pages/images for each family. There is the page with the
> > listing of names, and then there is the two-paged sheet with the questions
> > regarding the livestock inventory and the housing description.
> >
> > My question was, how do I know which livestock inventory/housing
> > description goes with the list of names? Is it the one before the list of
> > names, or the one after it? I can't seem to find any indentifying info on
> > the inventory/housing sheet that links it to the family.
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Debbie
> >
> >
> > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "MGMojher" wrote:
> > >
> > > About 1869 Census:
> > > Census of Residents: The leftmost two columns (0 and 1) simply represent
> > the house number, and numbered lines for each individual recorded.
> > > Column 2 lists the names of the people. The instructions are simply a
> > long-winded way of saying count everyone who lives at the house.
> > >
> > > Column 3 specifies the sex of each person (ferfi = male and nö =
> > female); and
> > >
> > > Column 4 specifies the birth year of each person.
> > >
> > > Column 5 gives the religion of each individual.
> > >
> > > Column 6 is the marital status of each individual [nös = with wife;
> > ferjes = with husband; hajadon = maiden; nötlen = bachelor; özvégy
=
> > widow/er might also be found.]
> > >
> > > Column 7 lists the office(s) held.
> > >
> > > Column 8 identifies the type of work performed; telkes, a smallholder
> > (ie. peasant farmer); telkes seged helper to the smallholder; háztars, a
> > housekeeper; seged -- ie. help out on the farm/house; éves szolga, a
> > year's servant (presumably that's the duration of being hired out) and the
> > children in school, they would probably be listed as students (tanár) .
> >
> > >
> > > Column 9 is birthplace.
> > >
> > > Column 10 is citizenship, helybeli (local) rather than idegen (foreign).
> > >
> > > Columns 11 and 12 relate to whether the persons were at home or away at
> > the time of the census, with special instructions for those who had been
> > away for more than a month.
> > >
> > > Column 13 relates to literacy -- on the left able to read, on the right
> > able to read and write.
> > >
> > > Column 14 was reserved for notes (jegyzet).
> > >
> > > Inventory of Livestock: Horses (ló) are grouped into stallions
> > (csödör), mares (kancza), geldings (herélt), and foals (csikó)
under
> > three years. The three categories under each of the first three groups are
> > heavy (nehéz) and light (könnyü) species (fajta) and the total
> > (összesen) for the group. The next two columns are for mules
(öszvér)
> > and donkeys (szamár).
> > >
> > > The second large grouping is for horned cattle (szarvasmaha) which are
> > separated into Hungarian (magyar) and Swiss (svájczi) and buffalo
> > (bivaly). The first two of these categories are divided into bulls (bika),
> > cows (tehen), oxen (ökör), and calves (borju) under three years.
> > >
> > > The next two columns are for sheep (juh). They are categorized as either
> > "select" (nemesitett) or "common" (közönséges). This farm had six
common
> > sheep. The last three columns are for goats (kecske), pigs (sertés) and
> > finally beehives (méhkas).
> > >
> > > Housing Facilities: Following the identification of the town, and the
> > form headings, is a place for the street address (utcza -- note old
> > spelling of utca) or the house number (házszám). A street address
would
> > only be used in larger towns, small villages used house numbers.
> > >
> > > Does the house have? (A lakás rooms): a cellar (pinczében); a ground
> > floor (földszint); a loft (félemeleten); how many upper stories
> > (hányadik emeleten); an attic (padlácson).
> > >
> > > The house is made up of how many? sleeping room (szoba); pantry (kamra);
> > living room (elöszoba); and kitchen (konyha).
> > >
> > > Next is a statement that the house is used only for living (lakásra) --
> > ie. not for business. Then there is a question concerning additional
> > facilities and buildings used for a business. Business-related facilities:
> > shop or store (bolt); pantry (kamra); cellar (pinczér); implement shed
> > (félszer szin); storehouse (raktár); stall (iztállö); sheepfold
(akol);
> > barn (csür). In all probability the women did the cooking in the shed,
> > which explains the lack of a kitchen in the house in some houses.
> >  >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: deeellessbee
> > > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 4:47 PM
> > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which
> > family
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided to
> > finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
> > great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her parents Janos
> > and Marta.
> > >
> > > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc. goes
> > with her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it (image
> > 139)? I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if
> > there is any notation saying which is which anyway.
> > >
> > >
> >
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-\
CZP:1513958199
> > >
> > > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family in the
> > house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos' brother. He is
> > born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose they could
> > be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are cousins
> > instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
> > >
> > > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family? The
> > town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a birth
> > year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born in 1830,
> > and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other info
> > regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not given, so how
> > sure can I be this is my family?
> > >
> > > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column entries,
> > it would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty well, and
> > the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate is the
> > pits, quite frankly.
> > >
> > > Thank you for any help!
> > > Debbie
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Debbie,
     Sorry the page I got the information was not set to display Slovak words
properly.

     Here is a link that shows you the pages of the census and explains them
-http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/CensusMain.htm#1869Census

From: deeellessbee
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 5:53 PM
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which family


Michael, thank you for that detailed answer - if it isn't already, that post
(your answer) should be somewhere permanent on this site for people to refer to!
I appreciate the time you took to type all that information.

But my main question was, which page goes with my family? It appears to me there
are two pages/images for each family. There is the page with the listing of
names, and then there is the two-paged sheet with the questions regarding the
livestock inventory and the housing description.

My question was, how do I know which livestock inventory/housing description
goes with the list of names? Is it the one before the list of names, or the one
after it? I can't seem to find any indentifying info on the inventory/housing
sheet that links it to the family.

Thanks!
Debbie

--- In mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com, "MGMojher" wrote:
>
> About 1869 Census:
> Census of Residents: The leftmost two columns (0 and 1) simply represent the
house number, and numbered lines for each individual recorded.
> Column 2 lists the names of the people. The instructions are simply a
long-winded way of saying count everyone who lives at the house.
>
> Column 3 specifies the sex of each person (ferfi = male and nö = female);
and
>
> Column 4 specifies the birth year of each person.
>
> Column 5 gives the religion of each individual.
>
> Column 6 is the marital status of each individual [nös = with wife; ferjes
= with husband; hajadon = maiden; nötlen = bachelor; özvégy = widow/er
might also be found.]
>
> Column 7 lists the office(s) held.
>
> Column 8 identifies the type of work performed; telkes, a smallholder (ie.
peasant farmer); telkes seged helper to the smallholder; háztars, a
housekeeper; seged -- ie. help out on the farm/house; éves szolga, a year's
servant (presumably that's the duration of being hired out) and the children in
school, they would probably be listed as students (tanár) .
>
> Column 9 is birthplace.
>
> Column 10 is citizenship, helybeli (local) rather than idegen (foreign).
>
> Columns 11 and 12 relate to whether the persons were at home or away at the
time of the census, with special instructions for those who had been away for
more than a month.
>
> Column 13 relates to literacy -- on the left able to read, on the right able
to read and write.
>
> Column 14 was reserved for notes (jegyzet).
>
> Inventory of Livestock: Horses (ló) are grouped into stallions
(csödör), mares (kancza), geldings (herélt), and foals (csikó) under
three years. The three categories under each of the first three groups are heavy
(nehéz) and light (könnyü) species (fajta) and the total (összesen)
for the group. The next two columns are for mules (öszvér) and donkeys
(szamár).
>
> The second large grouping is for horned cattle (szarvasmaha) which are
separated into Hungarian (magyar) and Swiss (svájczi) and buffalo (bivaly).
The first two of these categories are divided into bulls (bika), cows (tehen),
oxen (ökör), and calves (borju) under three years.
>
> The next two columns are for sheep (juh). They are categorized as either
"select" (nemesitett) or "common" (közönséges). This farm had six
common sheep. The last three columns are for goats (kecske), pigs (sertés)
and finally beehives (méhkas).
>
> Housing Facilities: Following the identification of the town, and the form
headings, is a place for the street address (utcza -- note old spelling of utca)
or the house number (házszám). A street address would only be used in
larger towns, small villages used house numbers.
>
> Does the house have? (A lakás rooms): a cellar (pinczében); a ground
floor (földszint); a loft (félemeleten); how many upper stories
(hányadik emeleten); an attic (padlácson).
>
> The house is made up of how many? sleeping room (szoba); pantry (kamra);
living room (elöszoba); and kitchen (konyha).
>
> Next is a statement that the house is used only for living (lakásra) -- ie.
not for business. Then there is a question concerning additional facilities and
buildings used for a business. Business-related facilities: shop or store
(bolt); pantry (kamra); cellar (pinczér); implement shed (félszer szin);
storehouse (raktár); stall (iztállö); sheepfold (akol); barn (csür).
In all probability the women did the cooking in the shed, which explains the
lack of a kitchen in the house in some houses.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: deeellessbee
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 4:47 PM
> To: mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which family
>
>
> Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided to finally
take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my great-great-grandmother
and her family - Marta Guman with her parents Janos and Marta.
>
> My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc. goes with her
family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it (image 139)? I'm
having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if there is any
notation saying which is which anyway.
>
>
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-\
CZP:1513958199
>
> A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family in the house
- Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos' brother. He is born the
same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose they could be twins, the
same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are cousins instead. I guess
there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
>
> Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family? The town is
right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a birth year of 1862;
here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born in 1830, and here they are
1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other info regarding siblings, etc.,
and the mother's maiden name is not given, so how sure can I be this is my
family?
>
> Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column entries, it
would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty well, and the
entries for religion and marital status, but google translate is the pits, quite
frankly.
>
> Thank you for any help!
> Debbie
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://www.berecz.us/tutorial/miscdocs/mis2.htm This should clarify the pages
for you.

From: deeellessbee
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 6:42 PM
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which family


Ahhh... I see. Can I ask how you knew that, Peter? Did I miss something
somewhere on the form? Or (more likely) should I have read something somewhere
*before* I started browsing? In hindsight, it kind of makes sense, as it is in a
logical order, but how did you know?

Thanks again!
Debbie

--- In mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
>
> Ok. image 137 right side is the house and description, 138 about the
> inhabitants, 139 left side is the livestock etc. They had 1 cow - (tehen).
>
> Peter M.
>
> On 29 January 2013 12:53, deeellessbee wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Michael, thank you for that detailed answer - if it isn't already, that
> > post (your answer) should be somewhere permanent on this site for people to
> > refer to! I appreciate the time you took to type all that information.
> >
> > But my main question was, which page goes with my family? It appears to me
> > there are two pages/images for each family. There is the page with the
> > listing of names, and then there is the two-paged sheet with the questions
> > regarding the livestock inventory and the housing description.
> >
> > My question was, how do I know which livestock inventory/housing
> > description goes with the list of names? Is it the one before the list of
> > names, or the one after it? I can't seem to find any indentifying info on
> > the inventory/housing sheet that links it to the family.
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Debbie
> >
> >
> > --- In mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com, "MGMojher" wrote:
> > >
> > > About 1869 Census:
> > > Census of Residents: The leftmost two columns (0 and 1) simply represent
> > the house number, and numbered lines for each individual recorded.
> > > Column 2 lists the names of the people. The instructions are simply a
> > long-winded way of saying count everyone who lives at the house.
> > >
> > > Column 3 specifies the sex of each person (ferfi = male and nö =
> > female); and
> > >
> > > Column 4 specifies the birth year of each person.
> > >
> > > Column 5 gives the religion of each individual.
> > >
> > > Column 6 is the marital status of each individual [nös = with wife;
> > ferjes = with husband; hajadon = maiden; nötlen = bachelor;
özvégy =
> > widow/er might also be found.]
> > >
> > > Column 7 lists the office(s) held.
> > >
> > > Column 8 identifies the type of work performed; telkes, a smallholder
> > (ie. peasant farmer); telkes seged helper to the smallholder;
háztars, a
> > housekeeper; seged -- ie. help out on the farm/house; éves szolga, a
> > year's servant (presumably that's the duration of being hired out) and the
> > children in school, they would probably be listed as students (tanár)
.
> >
> > >
> > > Column 9 is birthplace.
> > >
> > > Column 10 is citizenship, helybeli (local) rather than idegen (foreign).
> > >
> > > Columns 11 and 12 relate to whether the persons were at home or away at
> > the time of the census, with special instructions for those who had been
> > away for more than a month.
> > >
> > > Column 13 relates to literacy -- on the left able to read, on the right
> > able to read and write.
> > >
> > > Column 14 was reserved for notes (jegyzet).
> > >
> > > Inventory of Livestock: Horses (ló) are grouped into stallions
> > (csödör), mares (kancza), geldings (herélt), and foals
(csikó) under
> > three years. The three categories under each of the first three groups are
> > heavy (nehéz) and light (könnyü) species (fajta) and
the total
> > (összesen) for the group. The next two columns are for mules
(öszvér)
> > and donkeys (szamár).
> > >
> > > The second large grouping is for horned cattle (szarvasmaha) which are
> > separated into Hungarian (magyar) and Swiss (svájczi) and buffalo
> > (bivaly). The first two of these categories are divided into bulls (bika),
> > cows (tehen), oxen (ökör), and calves (borju) under three
years.
> > >
> > > The next two columns are for sheep (juh). They are categorized as either
> > "select" (nemesitett) or "common" (közönséges). This
farm had six common
> > sheep. The last three columns are for goats (kecske), pigs (sertés)
and
> > finally beehives (méhkas).
> > >
> > > Housing Facilities: Following the identification of the town, and the
> > form headings, is a place for the street address (utcza -- note old
> > spelling of utca) or the house number (házszám). A street
address would
> > only be used in larger towns, small villages used house numbers.
> > >
> > > Does the house have? (A lakás rooms): a cellar (pinczében);
a ground
> > floor (földszint); a loft (félemeleten); how many upper
stories
> > (hányadik emeleten); an attic (padlácson).
> > >
> > > The house is made up of how many? sleeping room (szoba); pantry (kamra);
> > living room (elöszoba); and kitchen (konyha).
> > >
> > > Next is a statement that the house is used only for living
(lakásra) --
> > ie. not for business. Then there is a question concerning additional
> > facilities and buildings used for a business. Business-related facilities:
> > shop or store (bolt); pantry (kamra); cellar (pinczér); implement
shed
> > (félszer szin); storehouse (raktár); stall
(iztállö); sheepfold (akol);
> > barn (csür). In all probability the women did the cooking in the
shed,
> > which explains the lack of a kitchen in the house in some houses.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: deeellessbee
> > > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 4:47 PM
> > > To: mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which
> > family
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided to
> > finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
> > great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her parents Janos
> > and Marta.
> > >
> > > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc. goes
> > with her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it (image
> > 139)? I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if
> > there is any notation saying which is which anyway.
> > >
> > >
> >
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-\
CZP:1513958199
> > >
> > > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family in the
> > house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos' brother. He is
> > born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose they could
> > be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are cousins
> > instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
> > >
> > > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family? The
> > town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a birth
> > year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born in 1830,
> > and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other info
> > regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not given, so how
> > sure can I be this is my family?
> > >
> > > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column entries,
> > it would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty well, and
> > the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate is the
> > pits, quite frankly.
> > >
> > > Thank you for any help!
> > > Debbie
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://www.berecz.us/tutorial/miscdocs/mis2.htm – If you click on “See
Notes” on the right it will explain the columns.

From: deeellessbee
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 5:53 PM
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which family


Michael, thank you for that detailed answer - if it isn't already, that post
(your answer) should be somewhere permanent on this site for people to refer to!
I appreciate the time you took to type all that information.

But my main question was, which page goes with my family? It appears to me there
are two pages/images for each family. There is the page with the listing of
names, and then there is the two-paged sheet with the questions regarding the
livestock inventory and the housing description.

My question was, how do I know which livestock inventory/housing description
goes with the list of names? Is it the one before the list of names, or the one
after it? I can't seem to find any indentifying info on the inventory/housing
sheet that links it to the family.

Thanks!
Debbie

--- In mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com, "MGMojher" wrote:
>
> About 1869 Census:
> Census of Residents: The leftmost two columns (0 and 1) simply represent the
house number, and numbered lines for each individual recorded.
> Column 2 lists the names of the people. The instructions are simply a
long-winded way of saying count everyone who lives at the house.
>
> Column 3 specifies the sex of each person (ferfi = male and nö = female);
and
>
> Column 4 specifies the birth year of each person.
>
> Column 5 gives the religion of each individual.
>
> Column 6 is the marital status of each individual [nös = with wife; ferjes
= with husband; hajadon = maiden; nötlen = bachelor; özvégy = widow/er
might also be found.]
>
> Column 7 lists the office(s) held.
>
> Column 8 identifies the type of work performed; telkes, a smallholder (ie.
peasant farmer); telkes seged helper to the smallholder; háztars, a
housekeeper; seged -- ie. help out on the farm/house; éves szolga, a year's
servant (presumably that's the duration of being hired out) and the children in
school, they would probably be listed as students (tanár) .
>
> Column 9 is birthplace.
>
> Column 10 is citizenship, helybeli (local) rather than idegen (foreign).
>
> Columns 11 and 12 relate to whether the persons were at home or away at the
time of the census, with special instructions for those who had been away for
more than a month.
>
> Column 13 relates to literacy -- on the left able to read, on the right able
to read and write.
>
> Column 14 was reserved for notes (jegyzet).
>
> Inventory of Livestock: Horses (ló) are grouped into stallions
(csödör), mares (kancza), geldings (herélt), and foals (csikó) under
three years. The three categories under each of the first three groups are heavy
(nehéz) and light (könnyü) species (fajta) and the total (összesen)
for the group. The next two columns are for mules (öszvér) and donkeys
(szamár).
>
> The second large grouping is for horned cattle (szarvasmaha) which are
separated into Hungarian (magyar) and Swiss (svájczi) and buffalo (bivaly).
The first two of these categories are divided into bulls (bika), cows (tehen),
oxen (ökör), and calves (borju) under three years.
>
> The next two columns are for sheep (juh). They are categorized as either
"select" (nemesitett) or "common" (közönséges). This farm had six
common sheep. The last three columns are for goats (kecske), pigs (sertés)
and finally beehives (méhkas).
>
> Housing Facilities: Following the identification of the town, and the form
headings, is a place for the street address (utcza -- note old spelling of utca)
or the house number (házszám). A street address would only be used in
larger towns, small villages used house numbers.
>
> Does the house have? (A lakás rooms): a cellar (pinczében); a ground
floor (földszint); a loft (félemeleten); how many upper stories
(hányadik emeleten); an attic (padlácson).
>
> The house is made up of how many? sleeping room (szoba); pantry (kamra);
living room (elöszoba); and kitchen (konyha).
>
> Next is a statement that the house is used only for living (lakásra) -- ie.
not for business. Then there is a question concerning additional facilities and
buildings used for a business. Business-related facilities: shop or store
(bolt); pantry (kamra); cellar (pinczér); implement shed (félszer szin);
storehouse (raktár); stall (iztállö); sheepfold (akol); barn (csür).
In all probability the women did the cooking in the shed, which explains the
lack of a kitchen in the house in some houses.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: deeellessbee
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 4:47 PM
> To: mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which family
>
>
> Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided to finally
take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my great-great-grandmother
and her family - Marta Guman with her parents Janos and Marta.
>
> My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc. goes with her
family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it (image 139)? I'm
having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if there is any
notation saying which is which anyway.
>
>
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-\
CZP:1513958199
>
> A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family in the house
- Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos' brother. He is born the
same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose they could be twins, the
same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are cousins instead. I guess
there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
>
> Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family? The town is
right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a birth year of 1862;
here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born in 1830, and here they are
1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other info regarding siblings, etc.,
and the mother's maiden name is not given, so how sure can I be this is my
family?
>
> Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column entries, it
would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty well, and the
entries for religion and marital status, but google translate is the pits, quite
frankly.
>
> Thank you for any help!
> Debbie
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ah!  Thank you Michael!  That's great. I really should try to read this stuff
*before* I plunge into any records.  Thanks for all this information and the
links.  MOST helpful!

Debbie


--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "MGMojher"  wrote:
>
> http://www.berecz.us/tutorial/miscdocs/mis2.htm �" If you click on “See
Notes” on the right it will explain the columns.
>
> From: deeellessbee
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 5:53 PM
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which
family
>
>
> Michael, thank you for that detailed answer - if it isn't already, that post
(your answer) should be somewhere permanent on this site for people to refer to!
I appreciate the time you took to type all that information.
>
> But my main question was, which page goes with my family? It appears to me
there are two pages/images for each family. There is the page with the listing
of names, and then there is the two-paged sheet with the questions regarding the
livestock inventory and the housing description.
>
> My question was, how do I know which livestock inventory/housing description
goes with the list of names? Is it the one before the list of names, or the one
after it? I can't seem to find any indentifying info on the inventory/housing
sheet that links it to the family.
>
> Thanks!
> Debbie
>
> --- In mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com, "MGMojher" wrote:
> >
> > About 1869 Census:
> > Census of Residents: The leftmost two columns (0 and 1) simply represent the
house number, and numbered lines for each individual recorded.
> > Column 2 lists the names of the people. The instructions are simply a
long-winded way of saying count everyone who lives at the house.
> >
> > Column 3 specifies the sex of each person (ferfi = male and nö = female);
and
> >
> > Column 4 specifies the birth year of each person.
> >
> > Column 5 gives the religion of each individual.
> >
> > Column 6 is the marital status of each individual [nös = with wife;
ferjes = with husband; hajadon = maiden; nötlen = bachelor; özvégy =
widow/er might also be found.]
> >
> > Column 7 lists the office(s) held.
> >
> > Column 8 identifies the type of work performed; telkes, a smallholder (ie.
peasant farmer); telkes seged helper to the smallholder; háztars, a
housekeeper; seged -- ie. help out on the farm/house; éves szolga, a year's
servant (presumably that's the duration of being hired out) and the children in
school, they would probably be listed as students (tanár) .
> >
> > Column 9 is birthplace.
> >
> > Column 10 is citizenship, helybeli (local) rather than idegen (foreign).
> >
> > Columns 11 and 12 relate to whether the persons were at home or away at the
time of the census, with special instructions for those who had been away for
more than a month.
> >
> > Column 13 relates to literacy -- on the left able to read, on the right able
to read and write.
> >
> > Column 14 was reserved for notes (jegyzet).
> >
> > Inventory of Livestock: Horses (ló) are grouped into stallions
(csödör), mares (kancza), geldings (herélt), and foals (csikó) under
three years. The three categories under each of the first three groups are heavy
(nehéz) and light (könnyü) species (fajta) and the total (összesen)
for the group. The next two columns are for mules (öszvér) and donkeys
(szamár).
> >
> > The second large grouping is for horned cattle (szarvasmaha) which are
separated into Hungarian (magyar) and Swiss (svájczi) and buffalo (bivaly).
The first two of these categories are divided into bulls (bika), cows (tehen),
oxen (ökör), and calves (borju) under three years.
> >
> > The next two columns are for sheep (juh). They are categorized as either
"select" (nemesitett) or "common" (közönséges). This farm had six
common sheep. The last three columns are for goats (kecske), pigs (sertés)
and finally beehives (méhkas).
> >
> > Housing Facilities: Following the identification of the town, and the form
headings, is a place for the street address (utcza -- note old spelling of utca)
or the house number (házszám). A street address would only be used in
larger towns, small villages used house numbers.
> >
> > Does the house have? (A lakás rooms): a cellar (pinczében); a ground
floor (földszint); a loft (félemeleten); how many upper stories
(hányadik emeleten); an attic (padlácson).
> >
> > The house is made up of how many? sleeping room (szoba); pantry (kamra);
living room (elöszoba); and kitchen (konyha).
> >
> > Next is a statement that the house is used only for living (lakásra) --
ie. not for business. Then there is a question concerning additional facilities
and buildings used for a business. Business-related facilities: shop or store
(bolt); pantry (kamra); cellar (pinczér); implement shed (félszer szin);
storehouse (raktár); stall (iztállö); sheepfold (akol); barn (csür).
In all probability the women did the cooking in the shed, which explains the
lack of a kitchen in the house in some houses.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: deeellessbee
> > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 4:47 PM
> > To: mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS%40yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which family
> >
> >
> > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided to
finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her parents Janos and
Marta.
> >
> > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc. goes with
her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it (image 139)? I'm
having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if there is any
notation saying which is which anyway.
> >
> >
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-\
CZP:1513958199
> >
> > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family in the
house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos' brother. He is born
the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose they could be twins,
the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are cousins instead. I
guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
> >
> > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family? The town
is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a birth year of
1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born in 1830, and here they
are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other info regarding siblings,
etc., and the mother's maiden name is not given, so how sure can I be this is my
family?
> >
> > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column entries, it
would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty well, and the
entries for religion and marital status, but google translate is the pits, quite
frankly.
> >
> > Thank you for any help!
> > Debbie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi,
There is every possibility that it is your family.
If you have a look at the 1st and 2nd column headings, it gives evidence of
2 families in the one house.
The first column- folyo lakas-szam - comes from the word folyo-szam or
'running number' but it has lakas - 'householders' in this context. So it
says ' a running count of the householders in the house'. I do believe that
it means head-of-house - and in your case, there are two of them, Janos and
Gyorgy.
Column 2 says: A Lako szemelyek folyo szama - 'the inhabitants in running
order'. The running order was traditional and goes Head of House or Family
- almost always the Father, the Wife, the eldest child to the youngest
child, after that, the grandchildren. This is listed in the title of column
3 as Csalad Feje (Head of Family or Household), Neje (wife), Gyermeke
(Children), Unokai (Grandchildren).
So there are 2 entries in column 1 and the name entries in column 2 showing
the respective number of spouses and children for each head of family.
Gyorgy was a widower, so no wife, but the children are listed as per the
running order of each head.
The totals at the bottom under the double lines show exactly the numbers -
2 families, 7 inhabitants in total comprised of 3 males and 4 females.

As for your other question about the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos,
this archive won't give you that. However common knowledge says that if a
house is shared, it is always with a relative. Life was hard and in the
case of an ozvegy, he would be looking for another wife and/or in the
meantime living with a relative, helping out on the farm and his children
being looked after by Janos's wife.
This sort of thing happens even today, but in particular, my Grandfather
and wife lived with his father-in-law till 1942. My great aunt lives with
her daughter's family to this day after her husband died. Sometimes the
passage of time doesn't change much!
In your case though, I would try and decode the GK records for 1825 and
find out the relationships between Gyorgy and Janos.

Peter M.

On 29 January 2013 13:39, deeellessbee <deeellessbee@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Peter thanks for that help. Thanks especially for the "has a lot/parcel of
> land" - my translation only said "lot" and while I figured it meant he had
> some land, I wasn't quite sure. And I couldn't figure out the handwriting
> on the foldumoves - nothing was working in google translate for that one!
> Thanks! What do you think the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos is?
>
> After my original post, I looked again and realized that the notation for
> Marta Jr. does not look like "leany" which seems to be the regular notation
> for daughter/girl. I'm still trying to decide if the word after her name is
> something different or if the enumerator just got lazy. I do hope Marta is
> the daughter of Janos or this may not be my family.
>
> Thanks!
> Debbie
>
>
> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
> >
> > I would say that Gyorgy was the father of Maria and Mihaly - he was
> Ozvegy
> > - or a widower, working on the land.
> > All are local. Only Marta can read/write, all the rest can't.
> > Here is the rest as I see it:
> > Janos is hazas - 'married' 6th numbered column; telkes - has a lot
> (parcel
> > of land); foldmuves (foldmuveles) - 'tiller of the soil'; vagas Mikilos -
> > is the name of the village I presume, though in reverse order of the
> title
> > page.
> > Marta is the wife - 'neje' - and ferjes - 'has a husband'
> > Anna - leany 'young woman' - hajadon - unmarried
> > Marta - (can't read the note but I presume it means girl) -
> > Gyorgy - as above
> > Maria - leany - hajadon
> > Mihaly - fia - his (Gyorgy's boy)
> >
> > All seem to work the land as there is no other distinction made for
> > employment.
> >
> > The previous page describes the home:
> > They lived in number 68
> > Foldszint - single storey
> > Szoba - 1 room
> > Kamra - A pantry
> > Eloszoba - a hall or vestibule - commonly a sunroom.
> > Raktar - a storeroom
> > Csur - a barn.
> >
> > Hope that helps
> >
> > Peter M.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 29 January 2013 11:47, deeellessbee wrote:
> >
> > > **
>
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided to
> > > finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
> > > great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her parents
> Janos
> > > and Marta.
> > >
> > > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc. goes
> with
> > > her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it (image
> 139)?
> > > I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if
> there is
> > > any notation saying which is which anyway.
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-\
CZP:1513958199
> > >
> > > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family in the
> > > house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos' brother.
> He is
> > > born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose they
> could
> > > be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are
> cousins
> > > instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
> > >
> > > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family? The
> > > town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a
> birth
> > > year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born in
> 1830,
> > > and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other info
> > > regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not given,
> so how
> > > sure can I be this is my family?
> > >
> > > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column
> entries, it
> > > would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty well,
> and
> > > the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate is
> the
> > > pits, quite frankly.
> > >
> > > Thank you for any help!
> > > Debbie
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Peter, thanks for your thoughts and info.  I saw that Gyorgy was a widower with
two kids, and I figured he was a relative of some kind, sharing the house with
Janos.  It's just that birth date that's throwing me off.  My first thought
(before realizing they have the same birth year) was that they were brothers. 
Then I thought, well, what are the chances of twins (certainly possilbe, but
probable?)  So, maybe it's a cousin... but would cousins share a house?  Again
possible... is it more probable that they were twins or that cousins were
sharing a house?  Personally, I don't know.  And then there's always the issue
of how accurate the birthdates are to begin with.

So, there are things to ponder there, certainly.  Unfortunately, I have no idea
what Janos's parents names were.  I'd have to double-check my notes, but I think
I did find a few options for him for a birth record, but again, not knowing his
parents' names, and the Guman name being not-uncommon, I have no conclusive
answer yet.  I suppose I could go back and see if any of those parents in the
possible records for Janos, also have a son Gyorgy, but again, with a fairly
common last name and two common first names, how can I be sure...?  I do believe
that I did not come across twins, however, but maybe that's something to keep an
eye out for.

So, with all this to think about, why is my first thought to browse through the
other families and see if my family owning (only) one cow a good thing or a bad
thing, lol?

:)
Debbie

--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech  wrote:
>
> Hi,
> There is every possibility that it is your family.
> If you have a look at the 1st and 2nd column headings, it gives evidence of
> 2 families in the one house.
> The first column- folyo lakas-szam - comes from the word folyo-szam or
> 'running number' but it has lakas - 'householders' in this context. So it
> says ' a running count of the householders in the house'. I do believe that
> it means head-of-house - and in your case, there are two of them, Janos and
> Gyorgy.
> Column 2 says: A Lako szemelyek folyo szama - 'the inhabitants in running
> order'. The running order was traditional and goes Head of House or Family
> - almost always the Father, the Wife, the eldest child to the youngest
> child, after that, the grandchildren. This is listed in the title of column
> 3 as Csalad Feje (Head of Family or Household), Neje (wife), Gyermeke
> (Children), Unokai (Grandchildren).
> So there are 2 entries in column 1 and the name entries in column 2 showing
> the respective number of spouses and children for each head of family.
> Gyorgy was a widower, so no wife, but the children are listed as per the
> running order of each head.
> The totals at the bottom under the double lines show exactly the numbers -
> 2 families, 7 inhabitants in total comprised of 3 males and 4 females.
>
> As for your other question about the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos,
> this archive won't give you that. However common knowledge says that if a
> house is shared, it is always with a relative. Life was hard and in the
> case of an ozvegy, he would be looking for another wife and/or in the
> meantime living with a relative, helping out on the farm and his children
> being looked after by Janos's wife.
> This sort of thing happens even today, but in particular, my Grandfather
> and wife lived with his father-in-law till 1942. My great aunt lives with
> her daughter's family to this day after her husband died. Sometimes the
> passage of time doesn't change much!
> In your case though, I would try and decode the GK records for 1825 and
> find out the relationships between Gyorgy and Janos.
>
> Peter M.
>
> On 29 January 2013 13:39, deeellessbee  wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Peter thanks for that help. Thanks especially for the "has a lot/parcel of
> > land" - my translation only said "lot" and while I figured it meant he had
> > some land, I wasn't quite sure. And I couldn't figure out the handwriting
> > on the foldumoves - nothing was working in google translate for that one!
> > Thanks! What do you think the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos is?
> >
> > After my original post, I looked again and realized that the notation for
> > Marta Jr. does not look like "leany" which seems to be the regular notation
> > for daughter/girl. I'm still trying to decide if the word after her name is
> > something different or if the enumerator just got lazy. I do hope Marta is
> > the daughter of Janos or this may not be my family.
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Debbie
> >
> >
> > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
> > >
> > > I would say that Gyorgy was the father of Maria and Mihaly - he was
> > Ozvegy
> > > - or a widower, working on the land.
> > > All are local. Only Marta can read/write, all the rest can't.
> > > Here is the rest as I see it:
> > > Janos is hazas - 'married' 6th numbered column; telkes - has a lot
> > (parcel
> > > of land); foldmuves (foldmuveles) - 'tiller of the soil'; vagas Mikilos -
> > > is the name of the village I presume, though in reverse order of the
> > title
> > > page.
> > > Marta is the wife - 'neje' - and ferjes - 'has a husband'
> > > Anna - leany 'young woman' - hajadon - unmarried
> > > Marta - (can't read the note but I presume it means girl) -
> > > Gyorgy - as above
> > > Maria - leany - hajadon
> > > Mihaly - fia - his (Gyorgy's boy)
> > >
> > > All seem to work the land as there is no other distinction made for
> > > employment.
> > >
> > > The previous page describes the home:
> > > They lived in number 68
> > > Foldszint - single storey
> > > Szoba - 1 room
> > > Kamra - A pantry
> > > Eloszoba - a hall or vestibule - commonly a sunroom.
> > > Raktar - a storeroom
> > > Csur - a barn.
> > >
> > > Hope that helps
> > >
> > > Peter M.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 29 January 2013 11:47, deeellessbee wrote:
> > >
> > > > **
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided to
> > > > finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
> > > > great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her parents
> > Janos
> > > > and Marta.
> > > >
> > > > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc. goes
> > with
> > > > her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it (image
> > 139)?
> > > > I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if
> > there is
> > > > any notation saying which is which anyway.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-\
CZP:1513958199
> > > >
> > > > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family in the
> > > > house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos' brother.
> > He is
> > > > born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose they
> > could
> > > > be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are
> > cousins
> > > > instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
> > > >
> > > > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family? The
> > > > town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a
> > birth
> > > > year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born in
> > 1830,
> > > > and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other info
> > > > regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not given,
> > so how
> > > > sure can I be this is my family?
> > > >
> > > > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column
> > entries, it
> > > > would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty well,
> > and
> > > > the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate is
> > the
> > > > pits, quite frankly.
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for any help!
> > > > Debbie
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi Debbie

   The 1869 census is a goldmine of data for how our ancestors lived. I think
your problem is in using it to put the family together.

 Maybe it would be easier to build the family [including cousins] from
birth/bapt and marriage records first.

    For the two men in question you could search through all records for the
time period...give and take a few years ei ther way. You can record all the
right surnames for that time period and then use house numbers and godparents to
help you get an idea of relationships. Also with marriage records you'll have
maiden names and witnesses....a lot of times marriage witnesses will be
godparents to the couple's subsequant children or godparent to the person being
married...but it all helps to build families.

    It's time consuming but when you have all that data from the time period
you'll be able to get a good picture of the different families..You should be
able to start seeing connections and relationships.

 Then the 1869 census will help confirm and enhance what you found in the birth
and marriage records.

 This is my personal method, but like I said, it's time consuming and maybe
someone else has a more effcient method.



 My great grandfather's family shared a house with his cousin's family. I had
the same problem as you;...two heads of household with same surname and  given
names...and birth dates that were only a few years apart. They ended up as
cousins.

 Using only the data from the 1869 census you can only make assumptions.



Good luck Debbie...

Larry

interesting sidenote;  why are livestock broken down into sub catagories...i.e.
milk cows as opposed to meat cows? was it because they were taxed at different
rates?

 

  



----- Original Message -----


From: "deeellessbee" <deeellessbee@...>
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 11:47:47 AM
Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which family

Peter, thanks for your thoughts and info.  I saw that Gyorgy was a widower with
two kids, and I figured he was a relative of some kind, sharing the house with
Janos.  It's just that birth date that's throwing me off.  My first thought
(before realizing they have the same birth year) was that they were brothers.
 Then I thought, well, what are the chances of twins (certainly possilbe, but
probable?)  So, maybe it's a cousin... but would cousins share a house?  Again
possible... is it more probable that they were twins or that cousins were
sharing a house?  Personally, I don't know.  And then there's always the issue
of how accurate the birthdates are to begin with.

So, there are things to ponder there, certainly.  Unfortunately, I have no idea
what Janos's parents names were.  I'd have to double-check my notes, but I
think I did find a few options for him for a birth record, but again, not
knowing his parents' names, and the Guman name being not-uncommon, I have no
conclusive answer yet.  I suppose I could go back and see if any of those
parents in the possible records for Janos, also have a son Gyorgy, but again,
with a fairly common last name and two common first names, how can I be sure...?
 I do believe that I did not come across twins, however, but maybe that's
something to keep an eye out for.

So, with all this to think about, why is my first thought to browse through the
other families and see if my family owning (only) one cow a good thing or a bad
thing, lol?

:)
Debbie

--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech  wrote:
>
> Hi,
> There is every possibility that it is your family.
> If you have a look at the 1st and 2nd column headings, it gives evidence of
> 2 families in the one house.
> The first column- folyo lakas-szam - comes from the word folyo-szam or
> 'running number' but it has lakas - 'householders' in this context. So it
> says ' a running count of the householders in the house'. I do believe that
> it means head-of-house - and in your case, there are two of them, Janos and
> Gyorgy.
> Column 2 says: A Lako szemelyek folyo szama - 'the inhabitants in running
> order'. The running order was traditional and goes Head of House or Family
> - almost always the Father, the Wife, the eldest child to the youngest
> child, after that, the grandchildren. This is listed in the title of column
> 3 as Csalad Feje (Head of Family or Household), Neje (wife), Gyermeke
> (Children), Unokai (Grandchildren).
> So there are 2 entries in column 1 and the name entries in column 2 showing
> the respective number of spouses and children for each head of family.
> Gyorgy was a widower, so no wife, but the children are listed as per the
> running order of each head.
> The totals at the bottom under the double lines show exactly the numbers -
> 2 families, 7 inhabitants in total comprised of 3 males and 4 females.
>
> As for your other question about the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos,
> this archive won't give you that. However common knowledge says that if a
> house is shared, it is always with a relative. Life was hard and in the
> case of an ozvegy, he would be looking for another wife and/or in the
> meantime living with a relative, helping out on the farm and his children
> being looked after by Janos's wife.
> This sort of thing happens even today, but in particular, my Grandfather
> and wife lived with his father-in-law till 1942. My great aunt lives with
> her daughter's family to this day after her husband died. Sometimes the
> passage of time doesn't change much!
> In your case though, I would try and decode the GK records for 1825 and
> find out the relationships between Gyorgy and Janos.
>
> Peter M.
>
> On 29 January 2013 13:39, deeellessbee  wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Peter thanks for that help. Thanks especially for the "has a lot/parcel of
> > land" - my translation only said "lot" and while I figured it meant he had
> > some land, I wasn't quite sure. And I couldn't figure out the handwriting
> > on the foldumoves - nothing was working in google translate for that one!
> > Thanks! What do you think the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos is?
> >
> > After my original post, I looked again and realized that the notation for
> > Marta Jr. does not look like "leany" which seems to be the regular notation
> > for daughter/girl. I'm still trying to decide if the word after her name is
> > something different or if the enumerator just got lazy. I do hope Marta is
> > the daughter of Janos or this may not be my family.
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Debbie
> >
> >
> > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
> > >
> > > I would say that Gyorgy was the father of Maria and Mihaly - he was
> > Ozvegy
> > > - or a widower, working on the land.
> > > All are local. Only Marta can read/write, all the rest can't.
> > > Here is the rest as I see it:
> > > Janos is hazas - 'married' 6th numbered column; telkes - has a lot
> > (parcel
> > > of land); foldmuves (foldmuveles) - 'tiller of the soil'; vagas Mikilos -
> > > is the name of the village I presume, though in reverse order of the
> > title
> > > page.
> > > Marta is the wife - 'neje' - and ferjes - 'has a husband'
> > > Anna - leany 'young woman' - hajadon - unmarried
> > > Marta - (can't read the note but I presume it means girl) -
> > > Gyorgy - as above
> > > Maria - leany - hajadon
> > > Mihaly - fia - his (Gyorgy's boy)
> > >
> > > All seem to work the land as there is no other distinction made for
> > > employment.
> > >
> > > The previous page describes the home:
> > > They lived in number 68
> > > Foldszint - single storey
> > > Szoba - 1 room
> > > Kamra - A pantry
> > > Eloszoba - a hall or vestibule - commonly a sunroom.
> > > Raktar - a storeroom
> > > Csur - a barn.
> > >
> > > Hope that helps
> > >
> > > Peter M.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 29 January 2013 11:47, deeellessbee wrote:
> > >
> > > > **
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided to
> > > > finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
> > > > great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her parents
> > Janos
> > > > and Marta.
> > > >
> > > > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc. goes
> > with
> > > > her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it (image
> > 139)?
> > > > I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if
> > there is
> > > > any notation saying which is which anyway.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-\
CZP:1513958199
> > > >
> > > > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family in the
> > > > house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos' brother.
> > He is
> > > > born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose they
> > could
> > > > be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are
> > cousins
> > > > instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
> > > >
> > > > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family? The
> > > > town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a
> > birth
> > > > year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born in
> > 1830,
> > > > and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other info
> > > > regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not given,
> > so how
> > > > sure can I be this is my family?
> > > >
> > > > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column
> > entries, it
> > > > would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty well,
> > and
> > > > the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate is
> > the
> > > > pits, quite frankly.
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for any help!
> > > > Debbie
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >  
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Larry, you are completely right, and this is really what I need to do... again! 
I have combed through the records, and as I mentioned, I have found a few
options for Janos' possible birth record, but just can't be sure.  Let me take
it back a step.  I got Janos & Marta's names from Martha's death certificate
(from PA).  I have not found a birth/baptism record for Martha.  The records go
UP to 1856, then SKIP to 1861 and forward.  The death record gives her birthdate
as 1862.  There is no birth record for her that I can find, so I am guessing she
was born in that missing time period, most likely 1860 - 1861.

So no birth record means no confirmation of parents's names.  I have found a
marriage record for what may be my Janos and Marta in 1844, so the year of
marriage could be appropriate, if Martha were one of their later children. 
Unfortunately, the marriage record gives no ages for the bride and groom, and no
parents' names for either. So I am really going here on assumptions.

With the addition of Gyorgy to the mix, I can go back and check all the records
again, using the few baptism options I had for Janos, and see if any of those
parents on the baptism records had a son Gyorgy (again, assuming Gyorgy was
Janos's brother.)  Of course, Janos could very well have a brother Gyorgy but
this Gyorgy in the census is not necessarily him!  Okay, I'm getting ahead of
myself...

Thanks for the reminder to keep an eye on house numbers.  I do make note of
godparents, but I don't always remember the house numbers.  I guess it's time to
revisit the church records!

Thanks for your thoughts and thanks to everyone for being patient while I "think
out loud" here!

Debbie

--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, lkocik@... wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Debbie
>
>    The 1869 census is a goldmine of data for how our ancestors lived. I
think your problem is in using it to put the family together.
>
>  Maybe it would be easier to build the family [including cousins] from
birth/bapt and marriage records first.
>
>     For the two men in question you could search through all records for the
time period...give and take a few years ei ther way. You can record all the
right surnames for that time period and then use house numbers and godparents to
help you get an idea of relationships. Also with marriage records you'll have
maiden names and witnesses....a lot of times marriage witnesses will be
godparents to the couple's subsequant children or godparent to the person being
married...but it all helps to build families.
>
>     It's time consuming but when you have all that data from the time
period you'll be able to get a good picture of the different families..You
should be able to start seeing connections and relationships.
>
>  Then the 1869 census will help confirm and enhance what you found in the
birth and marriage records.
>
>  This is my personal method, but like I said, it's time consuming and maybe
someone else has a more effcient method.
>
>
>
>  My great grandfather's family shared a house with his cousin's family. I had
the same problem as you;...two heads of household with same surname and  given
names...and birth dates that were only a few years apart. They ended up as
cousins.
>
>  Using only the data from the 1869 census you can only make assumptions.
>
>
>
> Good luck Debbie...
>
> Larry
>
> interesting sidenote;  why are livestock broken down into sub
catagories...i.e. milk cows as opposed to meat cows? was it because they were
taxed at different rates?
>
>  
>
>   
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
> From: "deeellessbee"
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 11:47:47 AM
> Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which
family
>
> Peter, thanks for your thoughts and info.  I saw that Gyorgy was a widower
with two kids, and I figured he was a relative of some kind, sharing the house
with Janos.  It's just that birth date that's throwing me off.  My first
thought (before realizing they have the same birth year) was that they were
brothers.  Then I thought, well, what are the chances of twins (certainly
possilbe, but probable?)  So, maybe it's a cousin... but would cousins share a
house?  Again possible... is it more probable that they were twins or that
cousins were sharing a house?  Personally, I don't know.  And then there's
always the issue of how accurate the birthdates are to begin with.
>
> So, there are things to ponder there, certainly.  Unfortunately, I have no
idea what Janos's parents names were.  I'd have to double-check my notes, but I
think I did find a few options for him for a birth record, but again, not
knowing his parents' names, and the Guman name being not-uncommon, I have no
conclusive answer yet.  I suppose I could go back and see if any of those
parents in the possible records for Janos, also have a son Gyorgy, but again,
with a fairly common last name and two common first names, how can I be sure...?
 I do believe that I did not come across twins, however, but maybe that's
something to keep an eye out for.
>
> So, with all this to think about, why is my first thought to browse through
the other families and see if my family owning (only) one cow a good thing or a
bad thing, lol?
>
> :)
> Debbie
>
> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech  wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > There is every possibility that it is your family.
> > If you have a look at the 1st and 2nd column headings, it gives evidence of
> > 2 families in the one house.
> > The first column- folyo lakas-szam - comes from the word folyo-szam or
> > 'running number' but it has lakas - 'householders' in this context. So it
> > says ' a running count of the householders in the house'. I do believe that
> > it means head-of-house - and in your case, there are two of them, Janos and
> > Gyorgy.
> > Column 2 says: A Lako szemelyek folyo szama - 'the inhabitants in running
> > order'. The running order was traditional and goes Head of House or Family
> > - almost always the Father, the Wife, the eldest child to the youngest
> > child, after that, the grandchildren. This is listed in the title of column
> > 3 as Csalad Feje (Head of Family or Household), Neje (wife), Gyermeke
> > (Children), Unokai (Grandchildren).
> > So there are 2 entries in column 1 and the name entries in column 2 showing
> > the respective number of spouses and children for each head of family.
> > Gyorgy was a widower, so no wife, but the children are listed as per the
> > running order of each head.
> > The totals at the bottom under the double lines show exactly the numbers -
> > 2 families, 7 inhabitants in total comprised of 3 males and 4 females.
> >
> > As for your other question about the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos,
> > this archive won't give you that. However common knowledge says that if a
> > house is shared, it is always with a relative. Life was hard and in the
> > case of an ozvegy, he would be looking for another wife and/or in the
> > meantime living with a relative, helping out on the farm and his children
> > being looked after by Janos's wife.
> > This sort of thing happens even today, but in particular, my Grandfather
> > and wife lived with his father-in-law till 1942. My great aunt lives with
> > her daughter's family to this day after her husband died. Sometimes the
> > passage of time doesn't change much!
> > In your case though, I would try and decode the GK records for 1825 and
> > find out the relationships between Gyorgy and Janos.
> >
> > Peter M.
> >
> > On 29 January 2013 13:39, deeellessbee  wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Peter thanks for that help. Thanks especially for the "has a lot/parcel of
> > > land" - my translation only said "lot" and while I figured it meant he had
> > > some land, I wasn't quite sure. And I couldn't figure out the handwriting
> > > on the foldumoves - nothing was working in google translate for that one!
> > > Thanks! What do you think the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos is?
> > >
> > > After my original post, I looked again and realized that the notation for
> > > Marta Jr. does not look like "leany" which seems to be the regular
notation
> > > for daughter/girl. I'm still trying to decide if the word after her name
is
> > > something different or if the enumerator just got lazy. I do hope Marta is
> > > the daughter of Janos or this may not be my family.
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > > Debbie
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I would say that Gyorgy was the father of Maria and Mihaly - he was
> > > Ozvegy
> > > > - or a widower, working on the land.
> > > > All are local. Only Marta can read/write, all the rest can't.
> > > > Here is the rest as I see it:
> > > > Janos is hazas - 'married' 6th numbered column; telkes - has a lot
> > > (parcel
> > > > of land); foldmuves (foldmuveles) - 'tiller of the soil'; vagas Mikilos
-
> > > > is the name of the village I presume, though in reverse order of the
> > > title
> > > > page.
> > > > Marta is the wife - 'neje' - and ferjes - 'has a husband'
> > > > Anna - leany 'young woman' - hajadon - unmarried
> > > > Marta - (can't read the note but I presume it means girl) -
> > > > Gyorgy - as above
> > > > Maria - leany - hajadon
> > > > Mihaly - fia - his (Gyorgy's boy)
> > > >
> > > > All seem to work the land as there is no other distinction made for
> > > > employment.
> > > >
> > > > The previous page describes the home:
> > > > They lived in number 68
> > > > Foldszint - single storey
> > > > Szoba - 1 room
> > > > Kamra - A pantry
> > > > Eloszoba - a hall or vestibule - commonly a sunroom.
> > > > Raktar - a storeroom
> > > > Csur - a barn.
> > > >
> > > > Hope that helps
> > > >
> > > > Peter M.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 29 January 2013 11:47, deeellessbee wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > **
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided to
> > > > > finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
> > > > > great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her parents
> > > Janos
> > > > > and Marta.
> > > > >
> > > > > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc. goes
> > > with
> > > > > her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it (image
> > > 139)?
> > > > > I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if
> > > there is
> > > > > any notation saying which is which anyway.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-\
CZP:1513958199
> > > > >
> > > > > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family in
the
> > > > > house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos' brother.
> > > He is
> > > > > born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose they
> > > could
> > > > > be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are
> > > cousins
> > > > > instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
> > > > >
> > > > > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family? The
> > > > > town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a
> > > birth
> > > > > year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born in
> > > 1830,
> > > > > and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other
info
> > > > > regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not given,
> > > so how
> > > > > sure can I be this is my family?
> > > > >
> > > > > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column
> > > entries, it
> > > > > would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty well,
> > > and
> > > > > the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate is
> > > the
> > > > > pits, quite frankly.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for any help!
> > > > > Debbie
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--- On Mon, 1/28/13, karen lovadina <lovadina_karen@...> wrote:

From: karen lovadina <lovadina_karen@...>
Subject: Re: [S-R] translation
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 8:41 PM

On a baptismal record under the column where it says religion and conditio,�
some records say "mont" and some say"pleb".� What do these mean?
Karen



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Larry,

The classification of bulls, cows, oxen and 'borju' - calves into Hungarian
or Swiss was important to the economy. I got most of this info from bits
and pieces during wider research in genealogy and so generally not set in
stone.

The beef trade between all of old Hungary and Europe from about 1560
onwards became increasingly important. It was one aspect that both the
Turks and the Hungarians saw eye to eye on and became a mutual endeavour.
The Swiss (Svajczi) cows were prized for their milk in quality and
quantity. They were not used as work animals.
The Magyar cows and calves (veal - up to 3 years of age) were generally
meat animals. Magyar cows are brown and have prominent Y shaped long
straight horns and are easy to identify.
Selected bulls of both breeds were kept as studs. The younger bull calves
were kept as steers and for veal.
So it was important to know if a farm had a Swiss or Magyar bull.
I read that at the height of the beef trade, over 100,000 animals/year were
sent to Europe under the auspices of the Turks and Royal/Transylvanian
Hungarians. It certainly gave me a different perspective about the
importance of the plains of Pannonia and why so many wanted to control it
through political, religious and economic measures.

Peter M.

On 30 January 2013 07:03, <lkocik@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
> Hi Debbie
>
>    The 1869 census is a goldmine of data for how our ancestors lived. I
> think your problem is in using it to put the family together.
>
>  Maybe it would be easier to build the family [including cousins] from
> birth/bapt and marriage records first.
>
>     For the two men in question you could search through all records for
> the time period...give and take a few years ei ther way. You can record all
> the right surnames for that time period and then use house numbers and
> godparents to help you get an idea of relationships. Also with marriage
> records you'll have maiden names and witnesses....a lot of times marriage
> witnesses will be godparents to the couple's subsequant children or
> godparent to the person being married...but it all helps to build families.
>
>     It's time consuming but when you have all that data from the time
> period you'll be able to get a good picture of the different families..You
> should be able to start seeing connections and relationships.
>
>  Then the 1869 census will help confirm and enhance what you found in the
> birth and marriage records.
>
>  This is my personal method, but like I said, it's time consuming and
> maybe someone else has a more effcient method.
>
>  My great grandfather's family shared a house with his cousin's family. I
> had the same problem as you;...two heads of household with same surname and
>  given names...and birth dates that were only a few years apart. They ended
> up as cousins.
>
>  Using only the data from the 1869 census you can only make assumptions.
>
> Good luck Debbie...
>
> Larry
>
> interesting sidenote;  why are livestock broken down into sub
> catagories...i.e. milk cows as opposed to meat cows? was it because they
> were taxed at different rates?
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "deeellessbee" deeellessbee@...>
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 11:47:47 AM
> Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which
> family
>
> Peter, thanks for your thoughts and info.  I saw that Gyorgy was a widower
> with two kids, and I figured he was a relative of some kind, sharing the
> house with Janos.  It's just that birth date that's throwing me off.  My
> first thought (before realizing they have the same birth year) was that
> they were brothers.  Then I thought, well, what are the chances of twins
> (certainly possilbe, but probable?)  So, maybe it's a cousin... but would
> cousins share a house?  Again possible... is it more probable that they
> were twins or that cousins were sharing a house?  Personally, I don't know.
>  And then there's always the issue of how accurate the birthdates are to
> begin with.
>
> So, there are things to ponder there, certainly.  Unfortunately, I have no
> idea what Janos's parents names were.  I'd have to double-check my notes,
> but I think I did find a few options for him for a birth record, but again,
> not knowing his parents' names, and the Guman name being not-uncommon, I
> have no conclusive answer yet.  I suppose I could go back and see if any of
> those parents in the possible records for Janos, also have a son Gyorgy,
> but again, with a fairly common last name and two common first names, how
> can I be sure...?  I do believe that I did not come across twins, however,
> but maybe that's something to keep an eye out for.
>
> So, with all this to think about, why is my first thought to browse
> through the other families and see if my family owning (only) one cow a
> good thing or a bad thing, lol?
>
> :)
> Debbie
>
> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech  wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > There is every possibility that it is your family.
> > If you have a look at the 1st and 2nd column headings, it gives evidence
> of
> > 2 families in the one house.
> > The first column- folyo lakas-szam - comes from the word folyo-szam or
> > 'running number' but it has lakas - 'householders' in this context. So
> it
> > says ' a running count of the householders in the house'. I do believe
> that
> > it means head-of-house - and in your case, there are two of them, Janos
> and
> > Gyorgy.
> > Column 2 says: A Lako szemelyek folyo szama - 'the inhabitants in
> running
> > order'. The running order was traditional and goes Head of House or
> Family
> > - almost always the Father, the Wife, the eldest child to the youngest
> > child, after that, the grandchildren. This is listed in the title of
> column
> > 3 as Csalad Feje (Head of Family or Household), Neje (wife), Gyermeke
> > (Children), Unokai (Grandchildren).
> > So there are 2 entries in column 1 and the name entries in column 2
> showing
> > the respective number of spouses and children for each head of family.
> > Gyorgy was a widower, so no wife, but the children are listed as per the
> > running order of each head.
> > The totals at the bottom under the double lines show exactly the numbers
> -
> > 2 families, 7 inhabitants in total comprised of 3 males and 4 females.
> >
> > As for your other question about the relationship between Gyorgy and
> Janos,
> > this archive won't give you that. However common knowledge says that if
> a
> > house is shared, it is always with a relative. Life was hard and in the
> > case of an ozvegy, he would be looking for another wife and/or in the
> > meantime living with a relative, helping out on the farm and his
> children
> > being looked after by Janos's wife.
> > This sort of thing happens even today, but in particular, my Grandfather
> > and wife lived with his father-in-law till 1942. My great aunt lives
> with
> > her daughter's family to this day after her husband died. Sometimes the
> > passage of time doesn't change much!
> > In your case though, I would try and decode the GK records for 1825 and
> > find out the relationships between Gyorgy and Janos.
> >
> > Peter M.
> >
> > On 29 January 2013 13:39, deeellessbee  wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Peter thanks for that help. Thanks especially for the "has a
> lot/parcel of
> > > land" - my translation only said "lot" and while I figured it meant he
> had
> > > some land, I wasn't quite sure. And I couldn't figure out the
> handwriting
> > > on the foldumoves - nothing was working in google translate for that
> one!
> > > Thanks! What do you think the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos
> is?
> > >
> > > After my original post, I looked again and realized that the notation
> for
> > > Marta Jr. does not look like "leany" which seems to be the regular
> notation
> > > for daughter/girl. I'm still trying to decide if the word after her
> name is
> > > something different or if the enumerator just got lazy. I do hope
> Marta is
> > > the daughter of Janos or this may not be my family.
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > > Debbie
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I would say that Gyorgy was the father of Maria and Mihaly - he was
> > > Ozvegy
> > > > - or a widower, working on the land.
> > > > All are local. Only Marta can read/write, all the rest can't.
> > > > Here is the rest as I see it:
> > > > Janos is hazas - 'married' 6th numbered column; telkes - has a lot
> > > (parcel
> > > > of land); foldmuves (foldmuveles) - 'tiller of the soil'; vagas
> Mikilos -
> > > > is the name of the village I presume, though in reverse order of the
> > > title
> > > > page.
> > > > Marta is the wife - 'neje' - and ferjes - 'has a husband'
> > > > Anna - leany 'young woman' - hajadon - unmarried
> > > > Marta - (can't read the note but I presume it means girl) -
> > > > Gyorgy - as above
> > > > Maria - leany - hajadon
> > > > Mihaly - fia - his (Gyorgy's boy)
> > > >
> > > > All seem to work the land as there is no other distinction made for
> > > > employment.
> > > >
> > > > The previous page describes the home:
> > > > They lived in number 68
> > > > Foldszint - single storey
> > > > Szoba - 1 room
> > > > Kamra - A pantry
> > > > Eloszoba - a hall or vestibule - commonly a sunroom.
> > > > Raktar - a storeroom
> > > > Csur - a barn.
> > > >
> > > > Hope that helps
> > > >
> > > > Peter M.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 29 January 2013 11:47, deeellessbee wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > **
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided
> to
> > > > > finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
> > > > > great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her
> parents
> > > Janos
> > > > > and Marta.
> > > > >
> > > > > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc.
> goes
> > > with
> > > > > her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it
> (image
> > > 139)?
> > > > > I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if
> > > there is
> > > > > any notation saying which is which anyway.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
>
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-\
CZP:1513958199
> > > > >
> > > > > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family
> in the
> > > > > house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos'
> brother.
> > > He is
> > > > > born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose
> they
> > > could
> > > > > be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are
> > > cousins
> > > > > instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
> > > > >
> > > > > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family?
> The
> > > > > town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a
> > > birth
> > > > > year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born
> in
> > > 1830,
> > > > > and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other
> info
> > > > > regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not
> given,
> > > so how
> > > > > sure can I be this is my family?
> > > > >
> > > > > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column
> > > entries, it
> > > > > would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty
> well,
> > > and
> > > > > the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate
> is
> > > the
> > > > > pits, quite frankly.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for any help!
> > > > > Debbie
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
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Hello Karen,
Not knowing the year and place I would hazard a guess that Pleb stands for
Plebania meaning Parish.
Mont, I'm not sure of.
Were these words associated where the ceremony took place? I've seen
records where the priest distinguishes where the ceremony was held. In the
church, in the chapel or in some instances, an outside ceremony sometimes
on 'Calvary Hill'. So Mont could mean that.
Different villages had/have areas of religious significance. There's the
local 'Calvary Hill' where 3 crosses were erected. Some have a Barlang
(cave) or place where a local miracle occurred, represented by a statue.
Sometimes under the bell tower itself.

Peter M.

On 30 January 2013 08:52, karen lovadina <lovadina_karen@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, karen lovadina lovadina_karen@...> wrote:
>
> From: karen lovadina lovadina_karen@...>
> Subject: Re: [S-R] translation
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 8:41 PM
>
>
> On a baptismal record under the column where it says religion and
> conditio,  some records say "mont" and some say"pleb".  What do these mean?
> Karen
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


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Pleb = commoner, not noble.  Could be either colonus or inquilinus.

Margo



>________________________________
> From: htcstech <htcstech@...>
>To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 4:33 PM
>Subject: Re: Fw: Re: [S-R] translation
>
>
> 
>Hello Karen,
>Not knowing the year and place I would hazard a guess that Pleb stands for
>Plebania meaning Parish.
>Mont, I'm not sure of.
>Were these words associated where the ceremony took place? I've seen
>records where the priest distinguishes where the ceremony was held. In the
>church, in the chapel or in some instances, an outside ceremony sometimes
>on 'Calvary Hill'. So Mont could mean that.
>Different villages had/have areas of religious significance. There's the
>local 'Calvary Hill' where 3 crosses were erected. Some have a Barlang
>(cave) or place where a local miracle occurred, represented by a statue.
>Sometimes under the bell tower itself.
>
>Peter M.
>
>On 30 January 2013 08:52, karen lovadina lovadina_karen@...> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Mon, 1/28/13, karen lovadina lovadina_karen@...> wrote:
>>
>> From: karen lovadina lovadina_karen@...>
>> Subject: Re: [S-R] translation
>> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
>> Date: Monday, January 28, 2013, 8:41 PM
>>
>>
>> On a baptismal record under the column where it says religion and
>> conditio,  some records say "mont" and some say"pleb".  What do these mean?
>> Karen
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>
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>

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Peter

 Thank you....

 This is the data that you don't find in typical avenues of genealogical
research. I wouldn't even know where to begin to look for it.

   Understanding the basis of  the economy and what commodities our
 ancestors owned or traded  
 helps to understand their financial status and general lifestyle. 

 I need to revisit the 1869 census with this new information....

 Thanks again Peter.

Larry 

----- Original Message -----


From: "htcstech" <htcstech@...>
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 3:14:30 PM
Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which family

Hi Larry,

The classification of bulls, cows, oxen and 'borju' - calves into Hungarian
or Swiss was important to the economy. I got most of this info from bits
and pieces during wider research in genealogy and so generally not set in
stone.

The beef trade between all of old Hungary and Europe from about 1560
onwards became increasingly important. It was one aspect that both the
Turks and the Hungarians saw eye to eye on and became a mutual endeavour.
The Swiss (Svajczi) cows were prized for their milk in quality and
quantity. They were not used as work animals.
The Magyar cows and calves (veal - up to 3 years of age) were generally
meat animals. Magyar cows are brown and have prominent Y shaped long
straight horns and are easy to identify.
Selected bulls of both breeds were kept as studs. The younger bull calves
were kept as steers and for veal.
So it was important to know if a farm had a Swiss or Magyar bull.
I read that at the height of the beef trade, over 100,000 animals/year were
sent to Europe under the auspices of the Turks and Royal/Transylvanian
Hungarians. It certainly gave me a different perspective about the
importance of the plains of Pannonia and why so many wanted to control it
through political, religious and economic measures.

Peter M.

On 30 January 2013 07:03, <lkocik@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
> Hi Debbie
>
>    The 1869 census is a goldmine of data for how our ancestors lived. I
> think your problem is in using it to put the family together.
>
>  Maybe it would be easier to build the family [including cousins] from
> birth/bapt and marriage records first.
>
>     For the two men in question you could search through all records for
> the time period...give and take a few years ei ther way. You can record all
> the right surnames for that time period and then use house numbers and
> godparents to help you get an idea of relationships. Also with marriage
> records you'll have maiden names and witnesses....a lot of times marriage
> witnesses will be godparents to the couple's subsequant children or
> godparent to the person being married...but it all helps to build families.
>
>     It's time consuming but when you have all that data from the time
> period you'll be able to get a good picture of the different families..You
> should be able to start seeing connections and relationships.
>
>  Then the 1869 census will help confirm and enhance what you found in the
> birth and marriage records.
>
>  This is my personal method, but like I said, it's time consuming and
> maybe someone else has a more effcient method.
>
>  My great grandfather's family shared a house with his cousin's family. I
> had the same problem as you;...two heads of household with same surname and
>  given names...and birth dates that were only a few years apart. They ended
> up as cousins.
>
>  Using only the data from the 1869 census you can only make assumptions.
>
> Good luck Debbie...
>
> Larry
>
> interesting sidenote;  why are livestock broken down into sub
> catagories...i.e. milk cows as opposed to meat cows? was it because they
> were taxed at different rates?
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "deeellessbee" deeellessbee@...>
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 11:47:47 AM
> Subject: Re: [S-R] Hungarian Census question - which pages go with which
> family
>
> Peter, thanks for your thoughts and info.  I saw that Gyorgy was a widower
> with two kids, and I figured he was a relative of some kind, sharing the
> house with Janos.  It's just that birth date that's throwing me off.  My
> first thought (before realizing they have the same birth year) was that
> they were brothers.  Then I thought, well, what are the chances of twins
> (certainly possilbe, but probable?)  So, maybe it's a cousin... but would
> cousins share a house?  Again possible... is it more probable that they
> were twins or that cousins were sharing a house?  Personally, I don't know.
>  And then there's always the issue of how accurate the birthdates are to
> begin with.
>
> So, there are things to ponder there, certainly.  Unfortunately, I have no
> idea what Janos's parents names were.  I'd have to double-check my notes,
> but I think I did find a few options for him for a birth record, but again,
> not knowing his parents' names, and the Guman name being not-uncommon, I
> have no conclusive answer yet.  I suppose I could go back and see if any of
> those parents in the possible records for Janos, also have a son Gyorgy,
> but again, with a fairly common last name and two common first names, how
> can I be sure...?  I do believe that I did not come across twins, however,
> but maybe that's something to keep an eye out for.
>
> So, with all this to think about, why is my first thought to browse
> through the other families and see if my family owning (only) one cow a
> good thing or a bad thing, lol?
>
> :)
> Debbie
>
> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech  wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > There is every possibility that it is your family.
> > If you have a look at the 1st and 2nd column headings, it gives evidence
> of
> > 2 families in the one house.
> > The first column- folyo lakas-szam - comes from the word folyo-szam or
> > 'running number' but it has lakas - 'householders' in this context. So
> it
> > says ' a running count of the householders in the house'. I do believe
> that
> > it means head-of-house - and in your case, there are two of them, Janos
> and
> > Gyorgy.
> > Column 2 says: A Lako szemelyek folyo szama - 'the inhabitants in
> running
> > order'. The running order was traditional and goes Head of House or
> Family
> > - almost always the Father, the Wife, the eldest child to the youngest
> > child, after that, the grandchildren. This is listed in the title of
> column
> > 3 as Csalad Feje (Head of Family or Household), Neje (wife), Gyermeke
> > (Children), Unokai (Grandchildren).
> > So there are 2 entries in column 1 and the name entries in column 2
> showing
> > the respective number of spouses and children for each head of family.
> > Gyorgy was a widower, so no wife, but the children are listed as per the
> > running order of each head.
> > The totals at the bottom under the double lines show exactly the numbers
> -
> > 2 families, 7 inhabitants in total comprised of 3 males and 4 females.
> >
> > As for your other question about the relationship between Gyorgy and
> Janos,
> > this archive won't give you that. However common knowledge says that if
> a
> > house is shared, it is always with a relative. Life was hard and in the
> > case of an ozvegy, he would be looking for another wife and/or in the
> > meantime living with a relative, helping out on the farm and his
> children
> > being looked after by Janos's wife.
> > This sort of thing happens even today, but in particular, my Grandfather
> > and wife lived with his father-in-law till 1942. My great aunt lives
> with
> > her daughter's family to this day after her husband died. Sometimes the
> > passage of time doesn't change much!
> > In your case though, I would try and decode the GK records for 1825 and
> > find out the relationships between Gyorgy and Janos.
> >
> > Peter M.
> >
> > On 29 January 2013 13:39, deeellessbee  wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Peter thanks for that help. Thanks especially for the "has a
> lot/parcel of
> > > land" - my translation only said "lot" and while I figured it meant he
> had
> > > some land, I wasn't quite sure. And I couldn't figure out the
> handwriting
> > > on the foldumoves - nothing was working in google translate for that
> one!
> > > Thanks! What do you think the relationship between Gyorgy and Janos
> is?
> > >
> > > After my original post, I looked again and realized that the notation
> for
> > > Marta Jr. does not look like "leany" which seems to be the regular
> notation
> > > for daughter/girl. I'm still trying to decide if the word after her
> name is
> > > something different or if the enumerator just got lazy. I do hope
> Marta is
> > > the daughter of Janos or this may not be my family.
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > > Debbie
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, htcstech wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I would say that Gyorgy was the father of Maria and Mihaly - he was
> > > Ozvegy
> > > > - or a widower, working on the land.
> > > > All are local. Only Marta can read/write, all the rest can't.
> > > > Here is the rest as I see it:
> > > > Janos is hazas - 'married' 6th numbered column; telkes - has a lot
> > > (parcel
> > > > of land); foldmuves (foldmuveles) - 'tiller of the soil'; vagas
> Mikilos -
> > > > is the name of the village I presume, though in reverse order of the
> > > title
> > > > page.
> > > > Marta is the wife - 'neje' - and ferjes - 'has a husband'
> > > > Anna - leany 'young woman' - hajadon - unmarried
> > > > Marta - (can't read the note but I presume it means girl) -
> > > > Gyorgy - as above
> > > > Maria - leany - hajadon
> > > > Mihaly - fia - his (Gyorgy's boy)
> > > >
> > > > All seem to work the land as there is no other distinction made for
> > > > employment.
> > > >
> > > > The previous page describes the home:
> > > > They lived in number 68
> > > > Foldszint - single storey
> > > > Szoba - 1 room
> > > > Kamra - A pantry
> > > > Eloszoba - a hall or vestibule - commonly a sunroom.
> > > > Raktar - a storeroom
> > > > Csur - a barn.
> > > >
> > > > Hope that helps
> > > >
> > > > Peter M.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 29 January 2013 11:47, deeellessbee wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > **
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks to Karen's question and Michael's detailed steps, I decided
> to
> > > > > finally take a look at the 1869 census. I think I have found my
> > > > > great-great-grandmother and her family - Marta Guman with her
> parents
> > > Janos
> > > > > and Marta.
> > > > >
> > > > > My question is, which page detailing the house and animals, etc.
> goes
> > > with
> > > > > her family, the one before it (image 137) or the one after it
> (image
> > > 139)?
> > > > > I'm having a difficult time with translation and not even sure if
> > > there is
> > > > > any notation saying which is which anyway.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
>
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-28478-15696-99?cc=1986782&wc=MMRC-\
CZP:1513958199
> > > > >
> > > > > A few more questions, if I may. How do I assess the other family
> in the
> > > > > house - Gyorgy Guman? I thought at first he might be Janos'
> brother.
> > > He is
> > > > > born the same year as Janos (both in 1825) and while I suppose
> they
> > > could
> > > > > be twins, the same birth year has me wondering if perhaps they are
> > > cousins
> > > > > instead. I guess there really is no way to know for sure anyway...
> > > > >
> > > > > Speaking of which, how do I determine if this is indeed my family?
> The
> > > > > town is right, the years are right (Marta Jr.'s death cert gives a
> > > birth
> > > > > year of 1862; here it is 1860. I estimated her parents to be born
> in
> > > 1830,
> > > > > and here they are 1825 and 1822, which would fit.) I have no other
> info
> > > > > regarding siblings, etc., and the mother's maiden name is not
> given,
> > > so how
> > > > > sure can I be this is my family?
> > > > >
> > > > > Lastly, if anyone wants to throw in any translation for column
> > > entries, it
> > > > > would be appreciated. I've got the column headings down pretty
> well,
> > > and
> > > > > the entries for religion and marital status, but google translate
> is
> > > the
> > > > > pits, quite frankly.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for any help!
> > > > > Debbie
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>  
>


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