Katherine -

   Thanks for this info.  My family was in NJ, but it is possible that she could
have moved to Nj from OH.  Will keep this as a possibility till I get more info
on her.

Katherine Ayers <kayers2@...> wrote:
           I'm sorry, but I do not have any other information on my Wargas. I do
not think the given name Barbara was ever used in my family.
I looked and found an immigration record for a Barbara Varga, who arrived April
3, 1896 at Ellis Island. She was 23 and single. Port of departure was Bremen.
Ship was the Dresden. This lady said she was going to Cleveland, Ohio. Could she
be a possibility?
Wish I could help you more, but I don't think there is a connection to my
family.
Good luck to you!
Katherine



   .







---------------------------------
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo!
FareChase.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>>> Only other name I have that links to this family, is an Andrew ZEC,
who apparently became the guardian of my gf and his brother before they
were placed in a orphanage.<<<

This may be a slim thread of evidence but it seems to be all we have.
Luckily, the name is uncommon.

There is ONE instance of Andras Zecs on Ellis Island. He was going to
McKeesport, PA. A location fit?

Zecs was from Janoska.

Mother Marta Sedlacek Varga and three little Vargas, Andras, Imre and
Jozsef, came to McKeesport from Janoska in 1907.

Does any of this hold water?

My grandmother is 96 and her father and mother were George Tkach
1882-1967, Mary/Maria Durto Tkach died 1921. They came over to USA
in 1909-1910. Because my grandmother was born in USA in 1910.
Relatives were Anna Tkach (Anna also spelled it Kotch), and Michael
Tkach 1877- 1946 are the people I am in search of. If anyone knows
or has any clues please let me know. The town is Sacurrow and
Zemplinski. Also a Mrs. Arkie married name and a Mrs. Holinko
married name. They both had 4-5 children. I also think they are
slavikic but their records on immigrantion of my grandfather says
chezeckslovia and then others say Hungary.  I am so confused.  If
anyone can tell me what language this prayer book has it in it might
solve my problems.  Also I would like to say what it says.  Thanks so
very much!

This was in a prayer book that was Grandma mothers

Motica Slovenska
Nositerka Radu Republicky
Oddelenie pre Zahranicnyck
Slovakov Puyacevova 2
Bratislova 1

Attention: Anna Istvancinova

Also

Mary Kash
Marca 16 20 0/0 7

Rulobrnynkoi
Poinyinykoi
Moinyoc 7 Soi

Ocera
Slonska

>>> The town is Sacurrow and Zemplinski. <<<

Haven't we seen this before? My computer recognized the village name
from a previous look up.

LDS has both GC and RC church records available. Greek Catholic and
Roman Catholic parish register of births, marriages, and deaths for
Sačurov, Slovakia; formerly Szacsúr, Zemplén, Hungary.

LDS also has the very informative 1869 Hungarian Census.
Sókút (Sol) -- Stefanócz (Štefanovce) -- Szacsúr (Sačurov) Film #
719786

LOCATE YOUR NEAREST FAMILY HISTORY CENTER AND ORDER FILM
You can go to the LDS web site to locate your nearest Family History
Center (FHC) and determine their hours of operation. You will need to
go there in person to order the film(s). In about a month, the film
will arrive and you can book a film reader and begin your research.
www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library/FHLC/frameset_fhlc.asp

BASIC RESEARCH HELP
For basic research help, be sure to visit Bill Tarkulich's excellent
site at http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/

>>> Motica Slovenska <<<

It's Slovak.

>>> The town is Sacurrow and Zemplinski. <<<

1910 HUNGARIAN MAP
The old Hungarian map can be found at:
http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/zemplen.jpg

Look in the light blue area, left side of map, for Szascur. That's your
village name in Hungarian.

SAVE the map on YOUR computer. OPEN the map in any graphics program.
CUT and PRINT the relevant section of the map. Otherwise, you just get
a corner. This map uses the Hungarian village names that you will
likely find in church records.

SLOVAK TELEPHONE WHITE PAGES
You might find relatives in Slovakia who have a telephone listing by
looking them up in the phone book white pages at
http://telefonny.zoznam.sk/

To use the search engine, you need to complete all the letters of last
name e.g.: Adam or Adamova. There is no English version of the web page.

These are potential cousins:
Tkáč Ján   Lesná 269, Sačurov
Holinková Mária   Nižný Hrušov 225, Nižný Hrušov
Ďurko Ján   Družstevná 564, Sačurov
Ďurko Pavol   Družstevná 570, Sačurov

ELLIS ISLAND LISTINGS
I use the Morse front end, Gold Form, for researching Ellis Island
entries. http://www.stevemorse.org/

You can use just a few letters for the name or village and check off
several language choices, eg: Hungarian, Slovak, Ruthenian. Be aware
that transcription errors abound and so you should always look at the
manifest, which often has two pages.

Durko, Jan Sacurov, T. Slov.    18  1902  1920 
Durka, Anna Valjs Szacsur      17  1883  1900 
Tkacs, Jlona Szacsur              17  1884  1901 
Tkacs, Maria Szacsur              25  1885  1910 
Tkacs, Maria Szacsur              26  1878  1904 
Tkacs, Mihaly Szacsur               2  1902  1904 

John, Yes you have and I do appreciate you helping me.  I really do.  You are so
knowledgable and helpful.  Do you research for pay?  Maybe I should have you
help me that way, if I can afford it.  I really want this for my Grandmother to
know.  I love her so much and want her to have this and place a copy with her
when she passes.  She is 96 and time is running out.  She can talk and
understand quite well, and tells me of things when she was a child.  She
rememebers those things well.  She really only knew her mother until she was 12
years old , and her mother died  (Maria Tracs), and left her and my ggrandfather
to raise her other siblings.  Grandma is the only one left.  I have since found
out that Maria had two sister's married last names of  Arkie and Holinko  in
America and have pictures that my mother found and Grandma gave to me.  I
recently send back one printer and just got a another scanner and printer...so I
will scan a picture of her birth certificate...like we
  discussed a month or more ago.

   I work two jobs and it takes up alot of my time.  But this has become my
release to stress, and my goal to find information.  I am addicted to this
research, but I am not very good or knowledgable and people like yourself are
helping me to learn.  I have a drive that I am sure that I have inherited from
my family to survive and thrive, or my ggrandparents would have never made it to
America.  I know they worked so hard, and I rememeber my ggrandfather, and how
hard his life was to give his family freedom.  Not like some of the immigrants
of today.  He worked day and night in the coal mines, to barely bring home
enough to feed four hungry children, with a wife that became very sick and died
so young.  My grandmother had to quit school and take care of the house, and the
neighbor ladies helped her to learn to do everything he rmother had not time to
teach her to do, becasue of her sudden .and unexpected  death.  Her youngest was
14 months and grandma rasied her baby
  brother.  Her knew her as his mother knowing he had another mother that passed.
He passed just recently in the last few years.  That was George Tkach Jr.

   Again, I do appreciate your help and understanding on my subject.  Maybe I
should call you or you can call me.  Sincerely Deborah

johnqadam <johnqadam@...> wrote:
           >>> The town is Sacurrow and Zemplinski. <<<

Haven't we seen this before? My computer recognized the village name
from a previous look up.

LDS has both GC and RC church records available. Greek Catholic and
Roman Catholic parish register of births, marriages, and deaths for
Sačurov, Slovakia; formerly Szacsúr, Zemplén, Hungary.

LDS also has the very informative 1869 Hungarian Census.
Sókút (Sol) -- Stefanócz (Štefanovce) -- Szacsúr (Sačurov) Film #
719786

LOCATE YOUR NEAREST FAMILY HISTORY CENTER AND ORDER FILM
You can go to the LDS web site to locate your nearest Family History
Center (FHC) and determine their hours of operation. You will need to
go there in person to order the film(s). In about a month, the film
will arrive and you can book a film reader and begin your research.
www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library/FHLC/frameset_fhlc.asp

BASIC RESEARCH HELP
For basic research help, be sure to visit Bill Tarkulich's excellent
site at http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/






---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>>> Do you research for pay?  Maybe I should have you help me that way,
if I can afford it. <<<

No, I don't do research for pay. I would recommend Mick Sura, who lives
in Kosice. You can contact Mick at sumi@... or arusm@...

He is "local talent" and is able to contact folks in Sacurov, take
photos and work on the church reords and census material held in the
local Slovak Archive.

I have a question. If there is no father listed on a birth record
could it have been illegitamate birth?  I have a Katalin Pasztor
giving birth to a Maria Pasztor 1876 in Flso Mislye. Could this have
been the case?   Thanks

If no father is listed and the child has the mother's
name then this was an illegitimate birth, that is
correct.

--- eternallysealed8 <eternallysealed8@...>
wrote:

> I have a question. If there is no father listed on a
> birth record
> could it have been illegitamate birth?  I have a
> Katalin Pasztor
> giving birth to a Maria Pasztor 1876 in Flso Mislye.
> Could this have
> been the case?   Thanks
>
>




________________________________________________________________________________\
____
It's here! Your new message!
Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/

There is also usually some independent indication that the birth was
illegitimate. Sometimes there is a column for this; sometimes there is a
notation under the name of the child, or of the mother.



Janet



   _____

From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of James McGrath
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 2:14 PM
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [S-R] BIRTH



If no father is listed and the child has the mother's
name then this was an illegitimate birth, that is
correct.

--- eternallysealed8 <eternallysealed8@
<mailto:eternallysealed8%40yahoo.com> yahoo.com>
wrote:

> I have a question. If there is no father listed on a
> birth record
> could it have been illegitamate birth? I have a
> Katalin Pasztor
> giving birth to a Maria Pasztor 1876 in Flso Mislye.
> Could this have
> been the case? Thanks
>
>

__________________________________________________________
It's here! Your new message!
Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
http://tools. <http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/>
search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello All

I have a comment and a few questions on this delicate  topic. In addition to
there being no father listed, in the Roman Catholic  church records I've
examined for the villages of Vinne, and Lastomir,  Slovakia there is a special
column in which it  was actually recorded as to whether births were "legitimate"
or "illegitimate".

My questions relate to acceptance. In the Slovak society of the late  1800s
how would that fact have been received by the people of the  village in which
the mother lived?  In today's world of singles and  unmarried couples we would
likely pay no notice, but in those  days would the mother have been accepted
or likely shunned? And  what of her child or children?  How would the society
of the day  have viewed them?


Eugene Klodzen


In a message dated 6/26/2007 3:16:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jamesfrankmcgrath@... writes:

If no  father is listed and the child has the mother's
name then this was an  illegitimate birth, that is
correct.

--- eternallysealed8 <_eternallysealed8@eternally_
(mailto:eternallysealed8@...) >
wrote:

>  I have a question. If there is no father listed on a
> birth record
> could it have been illegitimate birth? I have a
> Katalin  Pasztor
> giving birth to a Maria Pasztor 1876 in Flso Mislye.
>  Could this have
> been the case? Thanks







************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Back in 2004 there was considerable discussion of this topic. Vladimir
Bohinc, a highly respected professional genealogist from the Bratislava
area, offered the following observations:



Please, consider this; if somebody was born illegitimate, then as a rule,
there should not be any name of the father.

However, in many cases, the children were legitimized later, sometimes 6 or
8 years later , based on the subsequent marriage.

In general, illegitimate children and their mothers were usually doomed and
had to leave the community in many cases.

Nobody really wanted to marry a illegitimate child. The ones who did, were
widowers, strangers, or handicapped soldiers.

Many of illegitimate ones left for US, since they did not have any future
here. They did not have any inheritance to expect etc.

Also, the priest usually knew who was the father though confession, so he
could more or less discretely manage for the doomed either to leave or to
get married. He had all kinds of "means" to control what happened in his
community.

Before marriage, the priest had to check the books not only for legitimacy (
if foreigner, he had to present the birth certificate from his own parish),
but also for possible consanguinitatis. In case of one, a special permission
had to be given and a tax paid, depending on degree of blod relation and the
status of the spouses.

Conducting a marriage was a very serious business, which if wrong, could
have heavy consequences, also for the priest.

That's why the banns. Just to make sure, there were no known objections.

Some priests did not write everything they should. I especially noticed,
that when the hard magyarization was introduced, the new magyar priest put
there as little as possible info. So as if he would want to wipe out the
history of the spouses.

To my great anger.

This was shortly before 1846 and somewhere before 1900.

In Slovenia for example, there was a custom for illegitimate children to
have very unusual names, so they were branded like "A boy named Sue" from
Johnny Cash. ( not for the same reason though) We even have a theathre play
on this theme. The boy was named Polikarp, which is unheard of in
Slovenia.Parents had nothing to say.

The term deflorata I saw on several instances.

The books were routinely checked by the visitations of superiors. here and
there you can find their signature and seal.

So it was not all the same, what and how the things were written. And of
course, these things had a legal power. Only after 1895, this legal power
was taken away from the Church and the Civil Records were introduced.



And concerning the use of the terms "honestus" and "honesta" in the marriage
records:



The term honestus only means legitimate. When the latin was changed to
slovak, the same meaning was written as:

" s poctive suloze", which means from the honest copulation ( or laying in
bed together) German records follow similar rule, so they use the words: '
ehelicher Sohn" for a son, born in wedlock or legitimate.



And:



Quite often one or more children were born illegitimate before the parents
eventually married ( or at least the mother got maried with someone). In
such cases, there usually is an added note with the birth record of the
child, that this particular child was legitimized later by a subsequent
marriage ( usually on the day of marriage) Interestingly, I do not recall
any specific "labelling" of illegitimate born spouses. The only way, how the
priest could say that in a proper and "understandable" manner, was, that he
noted only the name of the mother of the spouse. This I have seen often.



And:



I would expect, that they either die in childhood due to no appropriate care
or they disappeared, if not legitimized.

However, if legitimized, then their birth record should have been properly
modified / corrected.

More illegitimate children were born in the second half of the century
because of the industrial revolution and also emergence of the middle class.
For the first, some girls moved away from home to work in the factory and
many began to live a more loose life.

For the second, middle class needed maids. Many maids.

I found very many illegitimate children in villages surrounding a Spa for
example. Or where the military Garrisons were, or the railroad was built.

A traditional village out of reach of civilisation did not have many. Almost
none. Many were just killed before or just after the birth.

A book about the traditions writes about the screams of a young mother
echoing through the valley in the middle of the night, when she was killing
her baby inside with a woodden stick.

She knew, she would be doomed.

In Romania, even not so many years ago, women introduced plastic tubes into
their wombs and walked with that around, just to provoke abortion.

Nobody really wanted such kids.

In bigger towns, there were orphanages, where the children could be
discretely given away and then the state gave them to other families. I
think, I wrote about this already. In those times, Vienna had about 10000
(ten thousand) illegitimate births per year. I counted them.



A different source has pointed out to me that one positive aspect of
Communism was that the concept of illegitimacy was no longer officially
recognized. But it seems to me unlikely that such an official change would
affect attitudes and behavior that had been in place for centuries, at least
not overnight, and especially in the smaller villages.



Janet





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>>>My questions relate to acceptance. In the Slovak society of  the late
1800s
>>>how would that fact have been received by the  people of the village in
which
>>the mother lived?

Eugene,
that is a good question.  I found two people while doing my family's
genealogy who were the firstborns and who were born to people who were not yet
married but who did marry afterwards and proceeded to have more children.   I
learned that sometimes this was due to the fact that there was not always a 
priest
in the vicinity but also, at one point, everyone in the villages married  at
the same time, once a year.  Does anyone remember that thread?  Am  I even
remembering it correctly?
Noreen



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you Mick, Noreen and Janet. Your information is most concise  and very
helpful. One further question. Can you or anyone on the list  recommend a good
book, books (on or off the Web) on Eastern Slovak  village society, social
customs, daily life, etc., circa 1850-1900?

Again, many thanks for your posts,
Eugene Klodzen



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My great grandmother who was illegitimate cmae from the small
village of Vysna Mysla.My great grandmother did marry had 2 children
and owned several pieces of property there inehich she and her
husband rented out.They eventually came to America in 1949. Her
mother who conceived out of wedlock took care of orphans. I just
thought all this is interesting.


--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, James McGrath
<jamesfrankmcgrath@...> wrote:
>
> If no father is listed and the child has the mother's
> name then this was an illegitimate birth, that is
> correct.
>
> --- eternallysealed8 <eternallysealed8@...>
> wrote:
>
> > I have a question. If there is no father listed on a
> > birth record
> > could it have been illegitamate birth?  I have a
> > Katalin Pasztor
> > giving birth to a Maria Pasztor 1876 in Flso Mislye.
> > Could this have
> > been the case?   Thanks
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
_____________________________________________________________________
_______________
> It's here! Your new message!
> Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
>

Dear Eugene,



To a large degree the customs and lifestyle of Central European countries
were the same, regardless of religion (Catholic or Protestant) or language.
This becomes clear if you look at a particular custom, such as marriage
rituals, and find nearly the same descriptions given for Slovak, Hungarian,
Polish, Bohemian (and so forth) cultures. The peasantry were more unified by
their social status than they were differentiated by their languages. With
that in mind, there are two excellent sources of information that I commonly
recommend. While both focus on the Hungarian culture, any differences found
from that of Eastern Slovakia will be relatively minor.



The first is Balassa and Ortutay's book Hungarian Ethnography and Folklore.
This extremely large (and expensive) book is hard to find, but recently it
has been placed online at http://mek.oszk.hu/02700/02790/html/index.html.
The only thing missing is the colored plates.



The second is Fel and Hofer's Proper Peasants. This is an in-depth study of
a single village. While not online, it is relatively easy to find
(www.abebooks.com <http://www.abebooks.com/> ) and is inexpensive.



Both books focus primarily on late 19th and early 20th century culture.
However, for the most part this culture had not changed for hundreds of
years.



I wish you many hours of great reading.



Janet





   _____

From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of gklodzen@...
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 7:28 AM
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [S-R] BIRTH



Thank you Mick, Noreen and Janet. Your information is most concise and very
helpful. One further question. Can you or anyone on the list recommend a
good
book, books (on or off the Web) on Eastern Slovak village society, social
customs, daily life, etc., circa 1850-1900?

Again, many thanks for your posts,
Eugene Klodzen

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.
<http://www.aol.com.> com.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>>> books (on or off the Web) on Eastern Slovak  village society,
social customs, daily life, etc., circa 1850-1900? <<<

Balch, Emily. Our Slavic Fellow Citizens. New York: Charitable
Publication Co., 1910.

"Among a handful of informed writers about the 800,000 Czech and Slovak
immigrants in the United States before World War I were sociologist
Emily Greene Balch and businessman-publicist Thomas Capek."

This can be found as a used book.

Janet,

Thank you very much for the information on the books below. Unfortunately
Balassa and Ortutay's online work could not be found immediately using  either
version of AOL's Internet Explorer that are on my computer. I  did find "Proper
Peasants", will order a copy from abebooks.com, and  also look up "Our Slavic
Fellow Citizens", suggested by another list  member.  I am indeed looking
forward to "many hours" of reading, and  grateful to all who have responded to
my
request. You are a wonderful  source of help!

Best regards,
Eugene Klodzen




In a message dated 6/27/2007 9:52:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
kozlay@... writes:

The  first is Balassa and Ortutay's book Hungarian Ethnography and  Folklore.
This extremely large (and expensive) book is hard to find, but  recently it
has been placed online at _http://mek.oszk.http://mehttp://mek.http://mek._
(http://mek.oszk.hu/02700/02790/html/index.html.)
The  only thing missing is the colored plates.

The second is Fel and  Hofer's Proper Peasants. This is an in-depth study of
a single village.  While not online, it is relatively easy to find
(www.abebooks.(www.abe<_http://www.abebookshttp:_ (http://www.abebooks.com/)
> ) and is  inexpensive.






************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Eugene,
try
_http://mek.oszk.hu/02700/02790/html/_ (http://mek.oszk.hu/02700/02790/html/)
the shortened URL works.
Thank you Janet, this is one of those sites that will be some time
meandering through.
Noreen




************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Janet,
Thank you for the email.  It was very informative to the topic  and it
actually did fit well into my own research.   i  do not know if it was you or
Vladimir B. who  counted the 10,000 births in  Vienna,  but hats off to the one
who
did.  :)
Noreen




Back in 2004 there was considerable discussion of this topic.  Vladimir
Bohinc, a highly respected professional genealogist from the  Bratislava
area, offered the following observations:

Please,  consider this; if somebody was born illegitimate, then as a rule,
there  should not be any name of the father.

However, in many cases, the  children were legitimized later, sometimes 6 or
8 years later , based on  the subsequent marriage.

In general, illegitimate children and their  mothers were usually doomed and
had to leave the community in many  cases.

Nobody really wanted to marry a illegitimate child. The ones who  did, were
widowers, strangers, or handicapped soldiers.

Many of  illegitimate ones left for US, since they did not have any future
here.  They did not have any inheritance to expect etc.

Also, the priest  usually knew who was the father though confession, so he
could more or less  discretely manage for the doomed either to leave or to
get married. He had  all kinds of "means" to control what happened in  his
community.

Before marriage, the priest had to check the books  not only for legitimacy (
if foreigner, he had to present the birth  certificate from his own parish),
but also for possible consanguinitatis.  In case of one, a special permission
had to be given and a tax paid,  depending on degree of blod relation and the
status of the  spouses.

Conducting a marriage was a very serious business, which if  wrong, could
have heavy consequences, also for the priest.

That's  why the banns. Just to make sure, there were no known objections.

Some  priests did not write everything they should. I especially noticed,
that  when the hard magyarization was introduced, the new magyar priest put
there  as little as possible info. So as if he would want to wipe out the
history  of the spouses.

To my great anger.

This was shortly before 1846  and somewhere before 1900.

In Slovenia for example, there was a custom  for illegitimate children to
have very unusual names, so they were branded  like "A boy named Sue" from
Johnny Cash. ( not for the same reason though)  We even have a theathre play
on this theme. The boy was named Polikarp,  which is unheard of in
Slovenia.Parents had nothing to say.

The term  deflorata I saw on several instances.

The books were routinely checked  by the visitations of superiors. here and
there you can find their  signature and seal.

So it was not all the same, what and how the things  were written. And of
course, these things had a legal power. Only after  1895, this legal power
was taken away from the Church and the Civil Records  were introduced.

And concerning the use of the terms "honestus" and  "honesta" in the marriage
records:

The term honestus only means  legitimate. When the latin was changed to
slovak, the same meaning was  written as:

" s poctive suloze", which means from the honest copulation  ( or laying in
bed together) German records follow similar rule, so they  use the words: '
ehelicher Sohn" for a son, born in wedlock or  legitimate.

And:

Quite often one or more children were born  illegitimate before the parents
eventually married ( or at least the mother  got maried with someone). In
such cases, there usually is an added note  with the birth record of the
child, that this particular child was  legitimized later by a subsequent
marriage ( usually on the day of  marriage) Interestingly, I do not recall
any specific "labelling" of  illegitimate born spouses. The only way, how the
priest could say that in a  proper and "understandable" manner, was, that he
noted only the name of the  mother of the spouse. This I have seen often.

And:

I would  expect, that they either die in childhood due to no appropriate care
or  they disappeared, if not legitimized.

However, if legitimized, then  their birth record should have been properly
modified /  corrected.

More illegitimate children were born in the second half of  the century
because of the industrial revolution and also emergence of the  middle class.
For the first, some girls moved away from home to work in the  factory and
many began to live a more loose life.

For the second,  middle class needed maids. Many maids.

I found very many illegitimate  children in villages surrounding a Spa for
example. Or where the military  Garrisons were, or the railroad was built.

A traditional village out of  reach of civilisation did not have many. Almost
none. Many were just killed  before or just after the birth.

A book about the traditions writes  about the screams of a young mother
echoing through the valley in the  middle of the night, when she was killing
her baby inside with a woodden  stick.

She knew, she would be doomed.

In Romania, even not so  many years ago, women introduced plastic tubes into
their wombs and walked  with that around, just to provoke abortion.

Nobody really wanted such  kids.

In bigger towns, there were orphanages, where the children could  be
discretely given away and then the state gave them to other families.  I
think, I wrote about this already. In those times, Vienna had about  10000
(ten thousand) illegitimate births per year. I counted them.

A  different source has pointed out to me that one positive aspect  of
Communism was that the concept of illegitimacy was no longer  officially
recognized. But it seems to me unlikely that such an official  change would
affect attitudes and behavior that had been in place for  centuries, at least
not overnight, and especially in the smaller  villages.

Janet











************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm glad you found the information interesting and helpful. It was Vladimir
who did the counting. All of the information was Vladimir's except for the
final paragraph. I should have used quotation marks to make that clear.



Janet



   _____

From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of nhasior@...
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 6:07 AM
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [S-R] BIRTH and ILLEGITIMACY




Janet,
Thank you for the email. It was very informative to the topic and it
actually did fit well into my own research. i do not know if it was you or
Vladimir B. who counted the 10,000 births in Vienna, but hats off to the one
who
did. :)
Noreen

Back in 2004 there was considerable discussion of this topic. Vladimir
Bohinc, a highly respected professional genealogist from the Bratislava
area, offered the following observations:

Please, consider this; if somebody was born illegitimate, then as a rule,
there should not be any name of the father.

However, in many cases, the children were legitimized later, sometimes 6 or
8 years later , based on the subsequent marriage.

In general, illegitimate children and their mothers were usually doomed and
had to leave the community in many cases.

Nobody really wanted to marry a illegitimate child. The ones who did, were
widowers, strangers, or handicapped soldiers.

Many of illegitimate ones left for US, since they did not have any future
here. They did not have any inheritance to expect etc.

Also, the priest usually knew who was the father though confession, so he
could more or less discretely manage for the doomed either to leave or to
get married. He had all kinds of "means" to control what happened in his
community.

Before marriage, the priest had to check the books not only for legitimacy (
if foreigner, he had to present the birth certificate from his own parish),
but also for possible consanguinitatis. In case of one, a special permission
had to be given and a tax paid, depending on degree of blod relation and the
status of the spouses.

Conducting a marriage was a very serious business, which if wrong, could
have heavy consequences, also for the priest.

That's why the banns. Just to make sure, there were no known objections.

Some priests did not write everything they should. I especially noticed,
that when the hard magyarization was introduced, the new magyar priest put
there as little as possible info. So as if he would want to wipe out the
history of the spouses.

To my great anger.

This was shortly before 1846 and somewhere before 1900.

In Slovenia for example, there was a custom for illegitimate children to
have very unusual names, so they were branded like "A boy named Sue" from
Johnny Cash. ( not for the same reason though) We even have a theathre play
on this theme. The boy was named Polikarp, which is unheard of in
Slovenia.Parents had nothing to say.

The term deflorata I saw on several instances.

The books were routinely checked by the visitations of superiors. here and
there you can find their signature and seal.

So it was not all the same, what and how the things were written. And of
course, these things had a legal power. Only after 1895, this legal power
was taken away from the Church and the Civil Records were introduced.

And concerning the use of the terms "honestus" and "honesta" in the marriage
records:

The term honestus only means legitimate. When the latin was changed to
slovak, the same meaning was written as:

" s poctive suloze", which means from the honest copulation ( or laying in
bed together) German records follow similar rule, so they use the words: '
ehelicher Sohn" for a son, born in wedlock or legitimate.

And:

Quite often one or more children were born illegitimate before the parents
eventually married ( or at least the mother got maried with someone). In
such cases, there usually is an added note with the birth record of the
child, that this particular child was legitimized later by a subsequent
marriage ( usually on the day of marriage) Interestingly, I do not recall
any specific "labelling" of illegitimate born spouses. The only way, how the
priest could say that in a proper and "understandable" manner, was, that he
noted only the name of the mother of the spouse. This I have seen often.

And:

I would expect, that they either die in childhood due to no appropriate care
or they disappeared, if not legitimized.

However, if legitimized, then their birth record should have been properly
modified / corrected.

More illegitimate children were born in the second half of the century
because of the industrial revolution and also emergence of the middle class.
For the first, some girls moved away from home to work in the factory and
many began to live a more loose life.

For the second, middle class needed maids. Many maids.

I found very many illegitimate children in villages surrounding a Spa for
example. Or where the military Garrisons were, or the railroad was built.

A traditional village out of reach of civilisation did not have many. Almost
none. Many were just killed before or just after the birth.

A book about the traditions writes about the screams of a young mother
echoing through the valley in the middle of the night, when she was killing
her baby inside with a woodden stick.

She knew, she would be doomed.

In Romania, even not so many years ago, women introduced plastic tubes into
their wombs and walked with that around, just to provoke abortion.

Nobody really wanted such kids.

In bigger towns, there were orphanages, where the children could be
discretely given away and then the state gave them to other families. I
think, I wrote about this already. In those times, Vienna had about 10000
(ten thousand) illegitimate births per year. I counted them.

A different source has pointed out to me that one positive aspect of
Communism was that the concept of illegitimacy was no longer officially
recognized. But it seems to me unlikely that such an official change would
affect attitudes and behavior that had been in place for centuries, at least
not overnight, and especially in the smaller villages.

Janet

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.
<http://www.aol.com.> com.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you very much, Caye and Milan, for the hot tips to finding sheep cheese in
Chicago.   I'll try the place in Lombard first because it is the closest to me.

   Sorry for the delay in my reply.  It seems that my yahoo email jams from time
to time and doesn't permit me to open any messages.

   Are you taking the grandchildren to Liptova Luzna this summer, Milan?  I will
have 4 Slovaks on my doorstep in less than 2 weeks!

   Margo

Milan Huba <illy@...> wrote:
           Hi Margo

Yes, go to a Polish deli, and ask for a Osteiepok. In Polish it is
pronounced a little different, but if you say "O ste pok" which is the
Slovak pronunciation, they will understand. If you lucky enough to get
someone who speaks a little English, just ask for "smoked Sheep's cheese.
The cheese is seasonal, it is made in the spring when they milk the sheep.
Towards the end of the year it is usually consumed and no longer available.

There is a Polish deli on Ogden Avenue in Downers Grove and another one on
Roosevelt Rd in Lombard. On a east-west plane, they are both located
between Hwy 53 and Hwy 83. If you need more specific information, give me a
call.

Milan

-----Original Message-----
From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Margo Smith
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:08 AM
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [S-R] Need Help with Old Potato Recipe

Can we get sheep cheese in the Chicago area, Milan?

Milan Huba <illy@...> wrote: I was cleaning out my old emails and I
found this old inquiry. If anybody
still cares, here are my recollections.

My grandmother made many of the foods described below. Here is what they
were called.

The flat bread that was made out of flour and potatoes was called
"Pekarin"
or "Zemackova Bubka". This was flat bread baked on the top of a
wood-burning
stove. She also baked similar bread in the oven called a "Harulik". I am
not sure of the Slovak spelling. I am spelling the words phonetically in
English.

She also made a porridge made out of flour and new or baby potatoes called
"Pulenta" or Zemackova Kasha. This resembled a thick Cream of Wheat. She
added butter or melted bacon fat to the top of this dish.

My grandmother emphasized that the pulenta was the best when it was made
with fresh new potatoes.

And of course, every good Slovak knows about brynzove halusky. This is a
Liptov specialty designed to please your palate and cog your arteries. The
halusky (little dumplings) are covered with melted sheeps cheese and bacon
bits. The haluskies are made out of potatoes and flour. The best haluskies
are always firm.

Milan Huba

-----Original Message-----
From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of william gura
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 9:26 AM
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [S-R] Need Help with Old Potato Recipe

john... will get back to you shortly... have a boat load of things i'm
juggling right notw... didn't forget about you or the pagach...
bill

John <john10636@...> wrote: Bill,

Yes! That is what my cousins had mentioned. They had said it,
though I had no idea how it was spelled. Now I just need to see if
we can make it okay at our house.

If when you have a chance, could you please post one of the recipes.

Thanks Again!
John

--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, william gura <wgura@y...> wrote:
>
> john... could it be a dish called pagach??? my folks
> use to make this also... but, ours had a dough top and
> bottom... we made it with potato filling or a fried
> cabbage filling... my favorite...if it is i have
> reciepes for it in an old slovak cookbook,,, let me
> know... bill
>
> --- John <john10636@e...> wrote:
>
> > Hi Everyone,
> >
> > I need some help in trying to find the name and
> > recipe of a dish that
> > my grandmaother was said to have made. It's not
> > that involved - mashed
> > potatoes mixed with water, flour and then spread out
> > into a rectangular
> > pan, and then folded over in half, and then baked in
> > an oven. My
> > cousin remembers it well, and my aunt thought the
> > name of it started
> > with a "P". Has anyone heard of anything that
> > resembles this???
> >
> > Thanks!
> > John

To unsubscribe from this group, go to
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---------------------------------
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Any time Margo.

I have one cousin here for the summer -- she's been
with me 2 weeks today and we're celebrating her
birthday on Sunday with my sister and her kids --
PIZZA -- which she loves.

Anyone else out there hosting Slovak family or friends
this summer?



Caye


--- Margo Smith <margolane61@...> wrote:

> Thank you very much, Caye and Milan, for the hot
> tips to finding sheep cheese in Chicago.   I'll try
> the place in Lombard first because it is the closest
> to me.
>
>   Sorry for the delay in my reply.  It seems that my
> yahoo email jams from time to time and doesn't
> permit me to open any messages.
>
>   Are you taking the grandchildren to Liptova Luzna
> this summer, Milan?  I will have 4 Slovaks on my
> doorstep in less than 2 weeks!
>
>   Margo
>
> Milan Huba <illy@...> wrote:
>           Hi Margo
>
> Yes, go to a Polish deli, and ask for a Osteiepok.
> In Polish it is
> pronounced a little different, but if you say "O ste
> pok" which is the
> Slovak pronunciation, they will understand. If you
> lucky enough to get
> someone who speaks a little English, just ask for
> "smoked Sheep's cheese.
> The cheese is seasonal, it is made in the spring
> when they milk the sheep.
> Towards the end of the year it is usually consumed
> and no longer available.
>
> There is a Polish deli on Ogden Avenue in Downers
> Grove and another one on
> Roosevelt Rd in Lombard. On a east-west plane, they
> are both located
> between Hwy 53 and Hwy 83. If you need more specific
> information, give me a
> call.
>
> Milan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]On
> Behalf Of Margo Smith
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:08 AM
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [S-R] Need Help with Old Potato Recipe
>
> Can we get sheep cheese in the Chicago area, Milan?
>
> Milan Huba <illy@...> wrote: I was cleaning
> out my old emails and I
> found this old inquiry. If anybody
> still cares, here are my recollections.
>
> My grandmother made many of the foods described
> below. Here is what they
> were called.
>
> The flat bread that was made out of flour and
> potatoes was called
> "Pekarin"
> or "Zemackova Bubka". This was flat bread baked on
> the top of a
> wood-burning
> stove. She also baked similar bread in the oven
> called a "Harulik". I am
> not sure of the Slovak spelling. I am spelling the
> words phonetically in
> English.
>
> She also made a porridge made out of flour and new
> or baby potatoes called
> "Pulenta" or Zemackova Kasha. This resembled a thick
> Cream of Wheat. She
> added butter or melted bacon fat to the top of this
> dish.
>
> My grandmother emphasized that the pulenta was the
> best when it was made
> with fresh new potatoes.
>
> And of course, every good Slovak knows about
> brynzove halusky. This is a
> Liptov specialty designed to please your palate and
> cog your arteries. The
> halusky (little dumplings) are covered with melted
> sheeps cheese and bacon
> bits. The haluskies are made out of potatoes and
> flour. The best haluskies
> are always firm.
>
> Milan Huba
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
> william gura
> Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 9:26 AM
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [S-R] Need Help with Old Potato Recipe
>
> john... will get back to you shortly... have a boat
> load of things i'm
> juggling right notw... didn't forget about you or
> the pagach...
> bill
>
> John <john10636@...> wrote: Bill,
>
> Yes! That is what my cousins had mentioned. They had
> said it,
> though I had no idea how it was spelled. Now I just
> need to see if
> we can make it okay at our house.
>
> If when you have a chance, could you please post one
> of the recipes.
>
> Thanks Again!
> John
>
> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, william gura
> <wgura@y...> wrote:
> >
> > john... could it be a dish called pagach??? my
> folks
> > use to make this also... but, ours had a dough top
> and
> > bottom... we made it with potato filling or a
> fried
> > cabbage filling... my favorite...if it is i have
> > reciepes for it in an old slovak cookbook,,, let
> me
> > know... bill
> >
> > --- John <john10636@e...> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Everyone,
> > >
> > > I need some help in trying to find the name and
> > > recipe of a dish that
> > > my grandmaother was said to have made. It's not
> > > that involved - mashed
> > > potatoes mixed with water, flour and then spread
> out
> > > into a rectangular
> > > pan, and then folded over in half, and then
> baked in
> > > an oven. My
> > > cousin remembers it well, and my aunt thought
> the
> > > name of it started
> > > with a "P". Has anyone heard of anything that
> > > resembles this???
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > > John
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or-
> send blank email to
> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> ---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> Visit your group "SLOVAK-ROOTS" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in
> one click.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or-
> send blank email to
> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> ---------------------------------
> Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email
> wherever you're
> surfing.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
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>
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Now that the topic of visiting cousins came up, I will say I SHOULD be
hosting a cousin this summer, but the US Embassy in Bratislava had
other ideas.  I was visiting in Slovakia at Christmas and agreed with
one family to host the 17 year old daughter this summer.  Funding,
insurance, round trip tickets, letter of invitation, guarantees,
school time and parental permission were all arranged.

Then she and her dad went to Bratislava for the interview and her visa
was denied.  No reason was given.  I think it stinks.  I asked my
Senators to look into it and I am still waiting for an answer.

Do US citizens have a 'right' to travel abroad, yet we cannot invite
visitors to this country?
Is the US so afraid of a 17 year old, what she may do or see?

I have worked for the Federal government and know how arbitrary its
burro-crats can be, but this is beyond all reason.

Ron


--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Caye Caswick <ccaswick@...> wrote:
>
>
> Any time Margo.
>
> I have one cousin here for the summer -- she's been
> with me 2 weeks today and we're celebrating her
> birthday on Sunday with my sister and her kids --
> PIZZA -- which she loves.
>
> Anyone else out there hosting Slovak family or friends
> this summer?
>
>
>
> Caye
>
>

I am just curious if anyone has ever ordered anything from Mr Kisha's
Import company? I ordered a hungarian Dictionary three months ago for
58.00 and have not recieved it or got my moneys refunded. I cant seem
to get any straight answers from him.

June

Others probably know much more about this than I;
however, when I was there last summer, my cousin's
mother mentioned that college students tended to get
visas the most easily.  Also, my cousins used an
agency that handled all the leg-work -- although they
did have to go to Bratislava for issuance of the visa.

I think maybe (maybe, guessing here) if they are
currently enrolled in a university, the chance that
they will defect to America might be less -- and the
benefits of their degreed young adults knowing English
and American Commerce would be a plus to the Slovak
Economy.  Only a guess -- I look forward to hearing
more on this topic.


Caye



--- amiak27 <rmat@...> wrote:

> Now that the topic of visiting cousins came up, I
> will say I SHOULD be
> hosting a cousin this summer, but the US Embassy in
> Bratislava had
> other ideas.  I was visiting in Slovakia at
> Christmas and agreed with
> one family to host the 17 year old daughter this
> summer.  Funding,
> insurance, round trip tickets, letter of invitation,
> guarantees,
> school time and parental permission were all
> arranged.
>
> Then she and her dad went to Bratislava for the
> interview and her visa
> was denied.  No reason was given.  I think it
> stinks.  I asked my
> Senators to look into it and I am still waiting for
> an answer.
>
> Do US citizens have a 'right' to travel abroad, yet
> we cannot invite
> visitors to this country?
> Is the US so afraid of a 17 year old, what she may
> do or see?
>
> I have worked for the Federal government and know
> how arbitrary its
> burro-crats can be, but this is beyond all reason.
>
> Ron
>
>
> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Caye Caswick
> <ccaswick@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Any time Margo.
> >
> > I have one cousin here for the summer -- she's
> been
> > with me 2 weeks today and we're celebrating her
> > birthday on Sunday with my sister and her kids --
> > PIZZA -- which she loves.
> >
> > Anyone else out there hosting Slovak family or
> friends
> > this summer?
> >
> >
> >
> > Caye
> >
> >
>
>




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Caye and Ron,
   Many of us have friends or "cousins" who might like to come
for a visit and so I would also like to hear more on this topic.
I will be particularly interested to hear what Ron's Senator or
Congressman have to say about the situation.
R/Bill


--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Caye Caswick <ccaswick@...> wrote:
>
>
> Others probably know much more about this than I;
> however, when I was there last summer, my cousin's
> mother mentioned that college students tended to get
> visas the most easily.  Also, my cousins used an
> agency that handled all the leg-work -- although they
> did have to go to Bratislava for issuance of the visa.
>
> I think maybe (maybe, guessing here) if they are
> currently enrolled in a university, the chance that
> they will defect to America might be less -- and the
> benefits of their degreed young adults knowing English
> and American Commerce would be a plus to the Slovak
> Economy.  Only a guess -- I look forward to hearing
> more on this topic.
>
>
> Caye
>
>
>
> --- amiak27 <rmat@...> wrote:
>
> > Now that the topic of visiting cousins came up, I
> > will say I SHOULD be
> > hosting a cousin this summer, but the US Embassy in
> > Bratislava had
> > other ideas.  I was visiting in Slovakia at
> > Christmas and agreed with
> > one family to host the 17 year old daughter this
> > summer.  Funding,
> > insurance, round trip tickets, letter of invitation,
> > guarantees,
> > school time and parental permission were all
> > arranged.
> >
> > Then she and her dad went to Bratislava for the
> > interview and her visa
> > was denied.  No reason was given.  I think it
> > stinks.  I asked my
> > Senators to look into it and I am still waiting for
> > an answer.
> >
> > Do US citizens have a 'right' to travel abroad, yet
> > we cannot invite
> > visitors to this country?
> > Is the US so afraid of a 17 year old, what she may
> > do or see?
> >
> > I have worked for the Federal government and know
> > how arbitrary its
> > burro-crats can be, but this is beyond all reason.
> >
> > Ron
> >
> >
> > --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Caye Caswick
> > <ccaswick@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Any time Margo.
> > >
> > > I have one cousin here for the summer -- she's
> > been
> > > with me 2 weeks today and we're celebrating her
> > > birthday on Sunday with my sister and her kids --
> > > PIZZA -- which she loves.
> > >
> > > Anyone else out there hosting Slovak family or
> > friends
> > > this summer?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Caye
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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