Dear Peter,

I could not believe my eyes. I am speechless. How is it possible that just
by chance you chose to feature in your instructions the very names and
places I have been hunting for nearly four years--Kozla, Kozlai, Kozik, and
Lovinobana (for which I have not been able to locate church records). This
has proven to be a particularly elusive family. I thought I had become
fairly proficient at searching the Arcanum.hu/mol databases, but I was
always baffled by the green screen, and generally ignored it. Now, with your
very clear instructions and translations of the terms, I am ready to give it
another shot.

I have also recently acquired the Konyvtar IV DVD from Arcanum, which has a
very large number of databases relating to Hungarian nobility, including but
certainly not limited to Nagy Iván, Kempelen Béla, and Siebmacher's
Wappenbuch. Some of your instructions also apply to those databases, which I
have been learning as I played with the DVD. If anyone is interested, I
would be happy to search out names and places as long as I don't get
overwhelmed with requests. Many of us were extremely unhappy when Arcanum
removed the Nagy and Kempelen databases from their free website, which is
why I broke down and ordered the DVD. I had no idea that there were numerous
other databases that also were rich sources of information.

I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to provide this worksheet.

Janet


-----Original Message-----
From: centroco@... [mailto:centroco@...] On Behalf Of Peter
Nagy
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 2:17 AM
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [S-R] 1600-1700s Hung Census &Gazetteer - Request for help de
ciphering!


Barbara,

you wrote:

> I'm a big dummy.....I've been going to this site and am just totalled
> confused......
>
> I've tried putting the names of the villages that I know my ancestors
> lived
> in....and pages come up with various collections of words...but I have no
> idea what to do next....I see arrows at the top right to go forward and
> back - forward and back to what? I don't know where I am now!

There are plenty of databases, referring to different documents stored
in National Archives - this would be an exercise for professional
researchers. I would strongly recommend to search only the 1715 taxpayer
census. Do not enter the yellow menu in the left. It is enough to follow
the instruction presented in this forum or to use my guide published here
http://www.centroconsult.sk/genealogy/census.html

First exercise is to locate the towns, you should know either official
name in 1913, or present official name, or name according the Lipszky
gazetteer, or name valid in 1715.

You are looking for villages Kinces (near Dvorianky) and in Jozsefvolgy
and in Velke Berezne
Kincses, now Chincius is in Romania, in what county was your Kinces
Józsefvolgy, former Zemplen county, now Juskova Vola is in Slovakia
Nagyberezna, former Ung county, now Velikij Bereznij is in Ukraine

I checked the town Jozsefvolgy using long list for 1913 town names.
There was one match:
-------------------------------------------
Town: Juszko Volya, Vólya, Juszko-, Józsefvölgy, Zemplén, Juskova Voľa,
SK (all alternative spellings)

Adózók neve (taxpayers): Scultetus Lukas Sziszál; Franciscus barna;
Georgius Sziszák; Alexender Kozanski; Alexender Sziszák

Oldalszám: 9, 340, - hypelink to the scanned pages.
----------------------------------------------

Let me please know, if the instructions on the page
http://www.centroconsult.sk/genealogy/census.html

were useful for you.

Happy hunting

Peter

--
Cilistovska 20
931 01 Samorin
Slovak Republic

tel: +421 31 560 0641
mobile: +421 905 490 552
http://www.centroconsult.sk





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Well, I really didn't think I was setting a trap for you. My apologies, and
thanks, as always, for providing more information. :-) However, from my
experience in the records this was not just an isolated exception. I have
run into a number of instances of nobility who were not related to this
family who were also butchers (though I have not seen nobles listed as
millers or smiths). I always thought this was strange, but I couldn't ignore
what was clearly there.
You are certainly right about moving around. The family lived in a number of
different villages over the years. You are also right that these were not
small villages, but nagyközség.
Janet


-----Original Message-----
From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 2:06 PM
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [S-R] Other social groups


Dear Janet,
You set me a trap:-)
What you are describing was probably the case with your family, which is not
a representative case.
Why the craftsmen were mainly subinquilini? Because they were not bonded to
the land as the coloni were.
They were usually living in other people's houses and this was the main
characteristic of a subinquilinus. Millers, blacksmiths, taylors etc, they
all were free to move and where they came to settle, they were tenants.
Later on, they acquired houses etc.
Bottom or not bottom;
In feudal times the main asset was land and an inquilinus or subinquilinus
died not have any land. So this was the criteria to sort them.
You can not say:" My ancestor was a noble blacksmith, so I expect every
blacksmith was noble." Nothing farther from the truth.
If you were a nobleman, it did not say anything about your real social
status. I found noblemen dying as a beggar. This was very often the case.
Many noble properties were lost  due to negligence and dolce vita, or
through inheritance.
Of course, when talking about the social structure, I had villages in mind,
not towns.
Towns were different.
Vladimir

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Janet Kozlay
   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 6:09 PM
   Subject: RE: [S-R] Other social groups


   Well, I know of at least one major exception. He was a non-propertied
noble
   who was a leaseholder of the butchery, mill, sawmill, tavern, and wine and
   flax presses and one of the wealthiest men in the county. He married into
a
   family of butchers who I believe were also nobles. Other friends and
   relatives tended to be priests, shopkeepers, teachers, estate managers,
and
   lawyers, which gives the sense that this represented what we would think
of
   as a middle class. (This was in the 1830s and 40s.) I have to agree that
   they were a small group percentagewise, but they are often dismissed
   completely in the literature, and of course they do appear in the church
   records. Your characterization of them as subinquilini suggests that they
   were on the bottom of the social barrel, which at least in this instance
was
   far from the case. Perhaps the status of such an occupation varied among
   regions.
   Janet

   -----Original Message-----
   From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
   Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 10:50 AM
   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: Re: [S-R] Other social groups


   True, they were there too, but they can be seen as group in a wider sense.
   In a community, there were not many, and they usually were subinquilini
   anyway.
   I knew only one female blacksmith in my life. My opinion is, that what you
   saw were the spouses of.
   Generally speaking, the craftsmanship was not reserved for nobles. They
were
   rather exceptions than a rule.
   Vladimir

     ----- Original Message -----
     From: Janet Kozlay
     To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
     Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 2:05 PM
     Subject: [S-R] Other social groups




     Let's not forget that there are other social groups besides the farmers,
     such as the craftsmen and the nobles. In the Latin records you run
across
     lanio (butcher), molitor (miller), and fabri (smith), who served their
     communities but were not farmers. Yesterday for the first time I ran
   across
     entries for women (godmothers) who were designated as lanionissa,
     molitorissa, and fabrissa. Do these signify that they were married to
   their
     respective butchers, millers, and smiths, or could there actually have
   been
     "butcheresses," "milleresses," and female smiths? I suspect the former,
   but
     I'd like another opinion. I would also like an opinion on whether in
your
     experiences most of these specialties were filled by the minor nobility.
I
     seem to have evidence that this was so, at least in the areas I have
been
     searching.

     Janet







     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Mea Culpa.  My error.  Too many things on my plate...
Thank you.
Bill

>
> From: "Vladimir Bohinc" <konekta@...>
> Date: 2005/03/03 Thu PM 02:09:13 EST
> To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: RE: [S-R] Dvorzsak Gazeteer - can anyone help
>
>
> You mean Zsepes?
> Vladimir
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Bill Tarkulich
>   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 6:33 PM
>   Subject: Re: RE: [S-R] Dvorzsak Gazeteer - can anyone help
>
>
>   It is SAROS.
>   Name-change-game applies here too.
>   bt
>
>
>   >
>   > From: christopher gajda <christophergajda@...>
>   > Date: 2005/03/03 Thu PM 12:27:53 EST
>   > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
>   > Subject: Re: RE: [S-R] Dvorzsak Gazeteer - can anyone help
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > I cannot find Spis county;  is it not included or am I not looking in
right place?
>   >
>   >
>   > ---------------------------------
>   > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
>   >  Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
>   >
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >
>   >
>   >
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To add a note to Vlad's reply:  at least in the 1800's & after, the
ethic of the nobility reflected in the history books is one of being
above commercialism, above business and dirtying their hands in
business, much less the trades.  Perhaps earlier times & some
locations some minor nobility got hungry and adapted a more
pragmatic morality as you point out, but at this time it was more
respectable to move to town and take a government job and play the
liesurely, self-important noble and bureaucrat working a few hours
at his desk & spending time at coffehouses & a respectable
mistress.  With perhaps Esterhazy the exception, many 'nobles' are
not recorded as contributing much to their country economically.

Ron


--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Vladimir Bohinc"
<konekta@n...> wrote:
> Dear Janet,
> You set me a trap:-)
> What you are describing was probably the case with your family,
which is not a representative case.
> Why the craftsmen were mainly subinquilini? Because they were not
bonded to the land as the coloni were.
> They were usually living in other people's houses and this was the
main characteristic of a subinquilinus. Millers, blacksmiths,
taylors etc, they all were free to move and where they came to
settle, they were tenants. Later on, they acquired houses etc.
> Bottom or not bottom;
> In feudal times the main asset was land and an inquilinus or
subinquilinus died not have any land. So this was the criteria to
sort them.
> You can not say:" My ancestor was a noble blacksmith, so I expect
every blacksmith was noble." Nothing farther from the truth.
> If you were a nobleman, it did not say anything about your real
social status. I found noblemen dying as a beggar. This was very
often the case. Many noble properties were lost  due to negligence
and dolce vita, or through inheritance.
> Of course, when talking about the social structure, I had villages
in mind, not towns.
> Towns were different.
> Vladimir
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Janet Kozlay
>   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 6:09 PM
>   Subject: RE: [S-R] Other social groups
>
>
>   Well, I know of at least one major exception. He was a non-
propertied noble
>   who was a leaseholder of the butchery, mill, sawmill, tavern,
and wine and
>   flax presses and one of the wealthiest men in the county. He
married into a
>   family of butchers who I believe were also nobles. Other friends
and
>   relatives tended to be priests, shopkeepers, teachers, estate
managers, and
>   lawyers, which gives the sense that this represented what we
would think of
>   as a middle class. (This was in the 1830s and 40s.) I have to
agree that
>   they were a small group percentagewise, but they are often
dismissed
>   completely in the literature, and of course they do appear in
the church
>   records. Your characterization of them as subinquilini suggests
that they
>   were on the bottom of the social barrel, which at least in this
instance was
>   far from the case. Perhaps the status of such an occupation
varied among
>   regions.
>   Janet
>
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@n...]
>   Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 10:50 AM
>   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: Re: [S-R] Other social groups
>
>
>   True, they were there too, but they can be seen as group in a
wider sense.
>   In a community, there were not many, and they usually were
subinquilini
>   anyway.
>   I knew only one female blacksmith in my life. My opinion is,
that what you
>   saw were the spouses of.
>   Generally speaking, the craftsmanship was not reserved for
nobles. They were
>   rather exceptions than a rule.
>   Vladimir
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: Janet Kozlay
>     To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
>     Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 2:05 PM
>     Subject: [S-R] Other social groups
>
>
>
>
>     Let's not forget that there are other social groups besides
the farmers,
>     such as the craftsmen and the nobles. In the Latin records you
run across
>     lanio (butcher), molitor (miller), and fabri (smith), who
served their
>     communities but were not farmers. Yesterday for the first time
I ran
>   across
>     entries for women (godmothers) who were designated as
lanionissa,
>     molitorissa, and fabrissa. Do these signify that they were
married to
>   their
>     respective butchers, millers, and smiths, or could there
actually have
>   been
>     "butcheresses," "milleresses," and female smiths? I suspect
the former,
>   but
>     I'd like another opinion. I would also like an opinion on
whether in your
>     experiences most of these specialties were filled by the minor
nobility. I
>     seem to have evidence that this was so, at least in the areas
I have been
>     searching.
>
>     Janet
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>     To unsubscribe from this group, go to
>   http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS  -or- send  blank
email to
>   SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
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>           Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>                 ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
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>
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I searched for the village Darocs in Ung county.  After the village name, in
brackets, is the word "Kincses".   What does this mean?  is this an alternate
name for Darocs?  if so, i've never seen it before.  (using online Hungarian
dictionary i found that the word "kincses" has something to do with "treasury"
or "treasure house".   Searching for "kincses" in census records also reveals
that "kincses" is a surname.)    Any ideas????


---------------------------------
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
  Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello.....Vlad and others on the "social question"...

I recently was fortunate enough to secure the marriage records on a family
history member that I am researching.  He was a nobleman...Jobaházi Dőry József
(a Baron).  In the marriage record he is listed as a Second Lieutenant in the
Hungarian Royal Husaren regiment.  I believe this was his "career" as I find him
in many years after......1927, 1928, 1938, 1940, and 1941.  Therefore, I would
deem him to have contributed to the world of Hungary and surrounding areas.

Józef's father was Miklós who was a Royal Chamberlain.  I am not sure what this
exactly entailed but perhaps it falls under your theory of "noble's not doing
hard work".  Of course, that is only a guess on anyone's part as I do not have a
real description of this job.  I am sure they contributed to the world around
them.

The witnesses for this wedding were also of noble birth.  Guary Béla was also a
Royal Chamberlain to the main chair of the Judge of Kapuvár.  The other witness
was a Count Fesztetics Elek from Sopron......no profession listed for him.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I would not care to "put everyone who
was noble" in a particular work pattern.  As with all people in this day and
time, there were so many variables in work conditions and patterns.  I am sure
there were some "losers" as we call people who do not pull their weight in this
time frame as there were also "winners" who were energetic and very
professional.

These are just my thoughts.......no concrete evidence of anything.  I just
wanted to add to this discussion and perhaps give a different point of view.

Cheers,
Jan


amiak27 <rmat@...> wrote:

To add a note to Vlad's reply:  at least in the 1800's & after, the
ethic of the nobility reflected in the history books is one of being
above commercialism, above business and dirtying their hands in
business, much less the trades.  Perhaps earlier times & some
locations some minor nobility got hungry and adapted a more
pragmatic morality as you point out, but at this time it was more
respectable to move to town and take a government job and play the
liesurely, self-important noble and bureaucrat working a few hours
at his desk & spending time at coffehouses & a respectable
mistress.  With perhaps Esterhazy the exception, many 'nobles' are
not recorded as contributing much to their country economically.

Ron


--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Vladimir Bohinc"
<konekta@n...> wrote:
> Dear Janet,
> You set me a trap:-)
> What you are describing was probably the case with your family,
which is not a representative case.
> Why the craftsmen were mainly subinquilini? Because they were not
bonded to the land as the coloni were.
> They were usually living in other people's houses and this was the
main characteristic of a subinquilinus. Millers, blacksmiths,
taylors etc, they all were free to move and where they came to
settle, they were tenants. Later on, they acquired houses etc.
> Bottom or not bottom;
> In feudal times the main asset was land and an inquilinus or
subinquilinus died not have any land. So this was the criteria to
sort them.
> You can not say:" My ancestor was a noble blacksmith, so I expect
every blacksmith was noble." Nothing farther from the truth.
> If you were a nobleman, it did not say anything about your real
social status. I found noblemen dying as a beggar. This was very
often the case. Many noble properties were lost  due to negligence
and dolce vita, or through inheritance.
> Of course, when talking about the social structure, I had villages
in mind, not towns.
> Towns were different.
> Vladimir
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Janet Kozlay
>   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 6:09 PM
>   Subject: RE: [S-R] Other social groups
>
>
>   Well, I know of at least one major exception. He was a non-
propertied noble
>   who was a leaseholder of the butchery, mill, sawmill, tavern,
and wine and
>   flax presses and one of the wealthiest men in the county. He
married into a
>   family of butchers who I believe were also nobles. Other friends
and
>   relatives tended to be priests, shopkeepers, teachers, estate
managers, and
>   lawyers, which gives the sense that this represented what we
would think of
>   as a middle class. (This was in the 1830s and 40s.) I have to
agree that
>   they were a small group percentagewise, but they are often
dismissed
>   completely in the literature, and of course they do appear in
the church
>   records. Your characterization of them as subinquilini suggests
that they
>   were on the bottom of the social barrel, which at least in this
instance was
>   far from the case. Perhaps the status of such an occupation
varied among
>   regions.
>   Janet
>
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@n...]
>   Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 10:50 AM
>   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: Re: [S-R] Other social groups
>
>
>   True, they were there too, but they can be seen as group in a
wider sense.
>   In a community, there were not many, and they usually were
subinquilini
>   anyway.
>   I knew only one female blacksmith in my life. My opinion is,
that what you
>   saw were the spouses of.
>   Generally speaking, the craftsmanship was not reserved for
nobles. They were
>   rather exceptions than a rule.
>   Vladimir
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: Janet Kozlay
>     To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
>     Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 2:05 PM
>     Subject: [S-R] Other social groups
>
>
>
>
>     Let's not forget that there are other social groups besides
the farmers,
>     such as the craftsmen and the nobles. In the Latin records you
run across
>     lanio (butcher), molitor (miller), and fabri (smith), who
served their
>     communities but were not farmers. Yesterday for the first time
I ran
>   across
>     entries for women (godmothers) who were designated as
lanionissa,
>     molitorissa, and fabrissa. Do these signify that they were
married to
>   their
>     respective butchers, millers, and smiths, or could there
actually have
>   been
>     "butcheresses," "milleresses," and female smiths? I suspect
the former,
>   but
>     I'd like another opinion. I would also like an opinion on
whether in your
>     experiences most of these specialties were filled by the minor
nobility. I
>     seem to have evidence that this was so, at least in the areas
I have been
>     searching.
>
>     Janet
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>     To unsubscribe from this group, go to
>   http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS  -or- send  blank
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Bill,
Two things;
I wrote this message already yesterday, but I don't know why it came in so late.
Second, I mix them occassionally too :-)
In order to tell them apart I remember the beer brand Saris and since I know
where the brewery is, I know then what is what.
Weird, no?
Vladimir

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Bill Tarkulich
   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 4:09 PM
   Subject: Re: RE: [S-R] Dvorzsak Gazeteer - can anyone help


   Mea Culpa.  My error.  Too many things on my plate...
   Thank you.
   Bill

   >
   > From: "Vladimir Bohinc" <konekta@...>
   > Date: 2005/03/03 Thu PM 02:09:13 EST
   > To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
   > Subject: Re: RE: [S-R] Dvorzsak Gazeteer - can anyone help
   >
   >
   > You mean Zsepes?
   > Vladimir
   >   ----- Original Message -----
   >   From: Bill Tarkulich
   >   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
   >   Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 6:33 PM
   >   Subject: Re: RE: [S-R] Dvorzsak Gazeteer - can anyone help
   >
   >
   >   It is SAROS.
   >   Name-change-game applies here too.
   >   bt
   >
   >
   >   >
   >   > From: christopher gajda <christophergajda@...>
   >   > Date: 2005/03/03 Thu PM 12:27:53 EST
   >   > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
   >   > Subject: Re: RE: [S-R] Dvorzsak Gazeteer - can anyone help
   >   >
   >   >
   >   >
   >   > I cannot find Spis county;  is it not included or am I not looking in
right place?
   >   >
   >   >
   >   > ---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes Jan, what you say is correct.
You can find nobles through the whole scale.
Once I was translating a diary of a hungarian Nobleman. he was good, very
good. But some members of his family were bad. Especially women. They
gambled all the property which they inherited. Just dolce vita.
Very often you find them as officers in the Army.
Towards the end of the 19th century many have either sold or let out on
lease their estates to the Jews.
Vladimir

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jan Ammann" <janammann@...>
To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: [S-R] Other social groups



Hello.....Vlad and others on the "social question"...

I recently was fortunate enough to secure the marriage records on a family
history member that I am researching.  He was a nobleman...Jobaházi Dőry
József (a Baron).  In the marriage record he is listed as a Second
Lieutenant in the Hungarian Royal Husaren regiment.  I believe this was his
"career" as I find him in many years after......1927, 1928, 1938, 1940, and
1941.  Therefore, I would deem him to have contributed to the world of
Hungary and surrounding areas.

Józef's father was Miklós who was a Royal Chamberlain.  I am not sure what
this exactly entailed but perhaps it falls under your theory of "noble's not
doing hard work".  Of course, that is only a guess on anyone's part as I do
not have a real description of this job.  I am sure they contributed to the
world around them.

The witnesses for this wedding were also of noble birth.  Guary Béla was
also a Royal Chamberlain to the main chair of the Judge of Kapuvár.  The
other witness was a Count Fesztetics Elek from Sopron......no profession
listed for him.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I would not care to "put everyone
who was noble" in a particular work pattern.  As with all people in this day
and time, there were so many variables in work conditions and patterns.  I
am sure there were some "losers" as we call people who do not pull their
weight in this time frame as there were also "winners" who were energetic
and very professional.

These are just my thoughts.......no concrete evidence of anything.  I just
wanted to add to this discussion and perhaps give a different point of view.

Cheers,
Jan


amiak27 <rmat@...> wrote:

To add a note to Vlad's reply:  at least in the 1800's & after, the
ethic of the nobility reflected in the history books is one of being
above commercialism, above business and dirtying their hands in
business, much less the trades.  Perhaps earlier times & some
locations some minor nobility got hungry and adapted a more
pragmatic morality as you point out, but at this time it was more
respectable to move to town and take a government job and play the
liesurely, self-important noble and bureaucrat working a few hours
at his desk & spending time at coffehouses & a respectable
mistress.  With perhaps Esterhazy the exception, many 'nobles' are
not recorded as contributing much to their country economically.

Ron


--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Vladimir Bohinc"
<konekta@n...> wrote:
> Dear Janet,
> You set me a trap:-)
> What you are describing was probably the case with your family,
which is not a representative case.
> Why the craftsmen were mainly subinquilini? Because they were not
bonded to the land as the coloni were.
> They were usually living in other people's houses and this was the
main characteristic of a subinquilinus. Millers, blacksmiths,
taylors etc, they all were free to move and where they came to
settle, they were tenants. Later on, they acquired houses etc.
> Bottom or not bottom;
> In feudal times the main asset was land and an inquilinus or
subinquilinus died not have any land. So this was the criteria to
sort them.
> You can not say:" My ancestor was a noble blacksmith, so I expect
every blacksmith was noble." Nothing farther from the truth.
> If you were a nobleman, it did not say anything about your real
social status. I found noblemen dying as a beggar. This was very
often the case. Many noble properties were lost  due to negligence
and dolce vita, or through inheritance.
> Of course, when talking about the social structure, I had villages
in mind, not towns.
> Towns were different.
> Vladimir
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Janet Kozlay
>   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 6:09 PM
>   Subject: RE: [S-R] Other social groups
>
>
>   Well, I know of at least one major exception. He was a non-
propertied noble
>   who was a leaseholder of the butchery, mill, sawmill, tavern,
and wine and
>   flax presses and one of the wealthiest men in the county. He
married into a
>   family of butchers who I believe were also nobles. Other friends
and
>   relatives tended to be priests, shopkeepers, teachers, estate
managers, and
>   lawyers, which gives the sense that this represented what we
would think of
>   as a middle class. (This was in the 1830s and 40s.) I have to
agree that
>   they were a small group percentagewise, but they are often
dismissed
>   completely in the literature, and of course they do appear in
the church
>   records. Your characterization of them as subinquilini suggests
that they
>   were on the bottom of the social barrel, which at least in this
instance was
>   far from the case. Perhaps the status of such an occupation
varied among
>   regions.
>   Janet
>
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@n...]
>   Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 10:50 AM
>   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: Re: [S-R] Other social groups
>
>
>   True, they were there too, but they can be seen as group in a
wider sense.
>   In a community, there were not many, and they usually were
subinquilini
>   anyway.
>   I knew only one female blacksmith in my life. My opinion is,
that what you
>   saw were the spouses of.
>   Generally speaking, the craftsmanship was not reserved for
nobles. They were
>   rather exceptions than a rule.
>   Vladimir
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: Janet Kozlay
>     To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
>     Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 2:05 PM
>     Subject: [S-R] Other social groups
>
>
>
>
>     Let's not forget that there are other social groups besides
the farmers,
>     such as the craftsmen and the nobles. In the Latin records you
run across
>     lanio (butcher), molitor (miller), and fabri (smith), who
served their
>     communities but were not farmers. Yesterday for the first time
I ran
>   across
>     entries for women (godmothers) who were designated as
lanionissa,
>     molitorissa, and fabrissa. Do these signify that they were
married to
>   their
>     respective butchers, millers, and smiths, or could there
actually have
>   been
>     "butcheresses," "milleresses," and female smiths? I suspect
the former,
>   but
>     I'd like another opinion. I would also like an opinion on
whether in your
>     experiences most of these specialties were filled by the minor
nobility. I
>     seem to have evidence that this was so, at least in the areas
I have been
>     searching.
>
>     Janet
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>     To unsubscribe from this group, go to
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Hello Chris..........

What a coincidence.  One of my family members in Hungary has the given name of
"Kincso" and I correspond with this family.  The father of the new baby told me
the meaning of the word is "treasure"...........So evidently a derivation of
Kincses is also Kincso. In my Magyar-Angol dictionary there is the word
"kincs".......a noun meaning treasure....a jewel.  The plural of "kincs" may be
"kincses"..........Just thought you might like knowing this.

Cheers,
Jan

christopher gajda <christophergajda@...> wrote:

I searched for the village Darocs in Ung county.  After the village name, in
brackets, is the word "Kincses".   What does this mean?  is this an alternate
name for Darocs?  if so, i've never seen it before.  (using online Hungarian
dictionary i found that the word "kincses" has something to do with "treasury"
or "treasure house".   Searching for "kincses" in census records also reveals
that "kincses" is a surname.)    Any ideas????


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

check out all the new books about Slovakia on
www.barnesandnoble.com
i could not believe the new additions.
Noreen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Jackie,
here is the URL for the Barnes and Noble site that has hundreds of new books
on Slovakia.  i think that this is since President Bush met President Putin in
Bratislava that the interest in Slovakia is now starting.  maybe you will
find something of interest.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?SAT=1&
userid=qT1lYLrAo7&WRD=slovakia&SRT=R


as for the books and maps, try
www.iarelative.com
or
www.mytarg.net  (does not include Saros)

or
www.slovakheritage.org



hope that this helps somewhat.
Noreen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

All,

I don't know if anyone mentioned this in previous posts about the 1715 Urbarial
census.

I noticed that some villages had entries with only a surnames listed.  I checked
on a couple of them and found that they
represented a widow.  The entry on the actual urbarial was listed as VIDUA -
Latin for widow.

I thought maybe the given name was unreadable.  This may still be the case in
the more damaged/deteriorated
Urbarials, but all the ones I checked on were Vidua.


Just a heads up.

Jerry

Can some of you give me the sites to look at the names on the census or any
where that I can see the names of the families in the area of the
Ukraine/Hungary at the time?

I don't know where to start looking.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I wonder if anyone knows whether there are any plans (by Arcanum or
others) to  put the 1767-1773 Urbarium census on-line.

Thank you,

Bohdana

Hello Helen,
I have no message from you about family living there

Give me please some info

Lubos

Helen <hwhite36@...> wrote:
Lubos, I drove past 18 O'Dell Circle today, it is right on lovely Orange
Lake. I will try to find out more about the family living there now.
Helen




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I too have found 4 villages in Békés megye with possible family
memebers.  The easiest way I found was to do a surname search, with
and without the umlauts.  It will not only bring up the 1715 census
but the ubarial records down below.  Not that I can read them.  I did
print my info off and also the actual written pages so I have
something to go on later.

paula



--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <cnovotni@f...> wrote:
> Thanks, Bill,  for posting the site for the Hungarian Census, etc.
I have
> been playing around for more than an hour and found both my
paternal and
> maternal grandparents' surnames in the area where they lived,
probably the
> same village for that matter. I had genealogical research done on
both of
> these families and got back as far as the late 1700s. Don't know
where I
> will go next with what I've found. Maybe I will look for the other
side of
> their families. I love the old handwriting - kind of reminds me of
colonial
> American records I've researched. Anyway - grea fun.
> Carol

I see 1773 in there.  Do a search on "1773"

______________
Bill Tarkulich




-----Original Message-----
From: bbadzio@... [mailto:bbadzio@...]
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 3:38 AM
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [S-R] 1773 Urbarium on-line?



I wonder if anyone knows whether there are any plans (by Arcanum or
others) to  put the 1767-1773 Urbarium census on-line.

Thank you,

Bohdana



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Yahoo! Groups Links

Thank you, Bill, for your suggestion.

I don't believe, however, that I see what I'm looking for. Just to clarify
what Urbarium I mean, it is the one that is found in FHL catalog:

*********************************
Title: Urbéri tabellák, 1767-1773
Authors: Magyarország. Helytartótanács (Main Author)

Notes: Az eredeti iratok mikrofilmre vétele Budapesten a Magyar Országos
Levéltárban történt.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Feudal land tenancy census records of Hungary, the so-called "Urbarium" or
"Urbéri tabellák", a document that defines the goods and services that a
serf was obligated to give to the feudal lord. Includes names of
landowners and serfs. Arranged by counties, and within the counties by
villages in alphabetical order. Includes primarily the years 1767-1773,
with some entries and the index covering the years 1723-1848. Some areas
that were in Hungary when these records were kept are now in Slovakia,
Romania and Ukraine
*************************

When I searched Arcanum for "1773", 142 hits came up. Part of the titles
looked similar to this:

**Urbaria et Conscriptiones/IRREGESTRATA/UC 4/UC 4 : 17**,

and the other part - to this:

**A középkori Magyarország levéltári forrásainak adatbázisa/U szekció:
DIPLOMATIKAI FÉNYKÉPGYŰJTEMÉNY/Magyarország/Vas Megyei Levéltár/DF
262095**

Just to make sure that this Urbarium was not "hidden" (meaning that it
could not be browsed, only searched), I searched the whole database for
the surnames I had just recorded from the microfilm copy of the Urbarium.
There were many I did not find.

Of course, none of what I just said proves that the Urbarium I'm looking
for is not on the Arcanum site, but I have my doubts that it is there...

Will be grateful for any further information.

Bohdana




>
> I see 1773 in there.  Do a search on "1773"
>
> ______________
> Bill Tarkulich
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bbadzio@... [mailto:bbadzio@...]
> Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 3:38 AM
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [S-R] 1773 Urbarium on-line?
>
>
>
> I wonder if anyone knows whether there are any plans (by Arcanum or
> others) to  put the 1767-1773 Urbarium census on-line.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Bohdana

Hello forum,

Concerning the 1715 Census of Hungary
(Az 1715. évi országos összeírás),

when searching by taxpayer (Adózók), some taxpayer names, appear
listed under something other than a village. For example, "Kis
Pallugya", "Demén Falva",  "Jász Apati".

What sort of settlements are these if not villages? Or are they
different classifications entirely?

TIA

Hello all!  My name is Lisa and I'm beginning genealogy research on
my beloved great-grandmother, Julianna (Julia) Planyeta Gregor
Mudry.  Recently while visiting my mother, I hand-copied my great-
grandmother's baptism certificate.  Unfortunately, it's in poor
condition and some of the identifying words are illegible.  There's
also nobody left to ask any information- my great-grandparents and
all but one of their children are deceased.

Using online dictionaries and document word searches, I've managed
to figure out some of this document but I think the most significant
portions elude me.  For example, the date of birth, date of baptism,
mother's name, godparents names and religions, date of document are
all clear.  Now here's the tricky part:  Under "torvenyes" there is
a dash, and under "torvenytelen" is some notation I can't read.
Looks like "a" and under that possibly and "f" or "t" then "or"
or "ar" and under that a dash- ng and finally under that the word
telen.  Also, under "A szuloknek neve, allasa es vallasa" it
states "Atya ismeretlen" and then "Anya: Planyeta" under that "Maria
(something illegible) and then "rom. Kath."  Does this signify that
my great-grandmother was illegitimate?

Finally, under "szuleteshelye" is a word that appears to be "Laeza"
which looks like another word that appears in a sentence which I
can't translate under the heading "Kivonat".  The word in that
sentence appears to be "Laezai".  Does anyone have info on a village
by this name?  The stamp on the bottom reads, "Sigillum Ecclesiae
Parochialis Saczensis".  Is "Saczensis" an indicator of location?
The only other thing we have to go on is a photo of my great-
grandmother's sister which has a notation of a photo studio
in "Kassa" which is understand is present-day Kosice?

Which is better- to concentrate on having the document translated to
figure out place of birth or to research the arrival at Ellis Island
(for which we have a tentative date)?

Thank you for your wealth of resources and sharing of info- I have
been enjoying reading though I'm at much more a beginning state than
most of you seem to be.

Take care!
Lisa

There is a listing for a Julianna Mudry, brought over
as an infant by her parents, complete with her
grandfather's name listed in the information, all
there to be viewed simply by searching under 'Mudry'
on www.ellisisland.org.

Hope this helps!

James McGrath

--- suburbanhollidays <westwood@...>
wrote:
>
>
> Hello all!  My name is Lisa and I'm beginning
> genealogy research on
> my beloved great-grandmother, Julianna (Julia)
> Planyeta Gregor
> Mudry.  Recently while visiting my mother, I
> hand-copied my great-
> grandmother's baptism certificate.  Unfortunately,
> it's in poor
> condition and some of the identifying words are
> illegible.  There's
> also nobody left to ask any information- my
> great-grandparents and
> all but one of their children are deceased.
>
> Using online dictionaries and document word
> searches, I've managed
> to figure out some of this document but I think the
> most significant
> portions elude me.  For example, the date of birth,
> date of baptism,
> mother's name, godparents names and religions, date
> of document are
> all clear.  Now here's the tricky part:  Under
> "torvenyes" there is
> a dash, and under "torvenytelen" is some notation I
> can't read.
> Looks like "a" and under that possibly and "f" or
> "t" then "or"
> or "ar" and under that a dash- ng and finally under
> that the word
> telen.  Also, under "A szuloknek neve, allasa es
> vallasa" it
> states "Atya ismeretlen" and then "Anya: Planyeta"
> under that "Maria
> (something illegible) and then "rom. Kath."  Does
> this signify that
> my great-grandmother was illegitimate?
>
> Finally, under "szuleteshelye" is a word that
> appears to be "Laeza"
> which looks like another word that appears in a
> sentence which I
> can't translate under the heading "Kivonat".  The
> word in that
> sentence appears to be "Laezai".  Does anyone have
> info on a village
> by this name?  The stamp on the bottom reads,
> "Sigillum Ecclesiae
> Parochialis Saczensis".  Is "Saczensis" an indicator
> of location?
> The only other thing we have to go on is a photo of
> my great-
> grandmother's sister which has a notation of a photo
> studio
> in "Kassa" which is understand is present-day
> Kosice?
>
> Which is better- to concentrate on having the
> document translated to
> figure out place of birth or to research the arrival
> at Ellis Island
> (for which we have a tentative date)?
>
> Thank you for your wealth of resources and sharing
> of info- I have
> been enjoying reading though I'm at much more a
> beginning state than
> most of you seem to be.
>
> Take care!
> Lisa
>
>
>
>


------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. James F. McGrath
Department of Philosophy and Religion
Butler University, 4600 Sunset Ave, Indianapolis, IN 46208
E-mail:  jfmcgrat@...
Web page: http://blue.butler.edu/~jfmcgrat/
------------------------------------------------------------




__________________________________
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Kassa = Kosice and so you are pretty close to having the birth place
located.

You have established the religion as RC = RK and that is very
important.

I believe that I have a kivonat = abstract/excerpt equivalent
document right here. In my case, the LOCATION appears in the first
line after the title, and again after the words:
Szuletes helye es lakasa .... Sarospatak, Gyorgytarloa
and again at the bottom, followed by the date:
SAROSPATAK 1929 marcius ho 19.

It would appear that the father is unkown and that the child is
törvénytelen = illegitimate.

The village appears to be Laezai or perhaps Saczensis. On the 1910
map at http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/abauj-t.jpg
Sacza is a village SSW of Kassa. On the current map it is shown as
S'aca.

If we are "on track", LDS has Roman Catholic parish registers of
baptisms, marriages, deaths and conversions for Šaca, Slovakia,
formerly Sacza, Abauj-Torna, Hungary. Includes affiliated town of
Bužinka, Slovakia, formerly Buzinka, Abauj-Torna, Hungary.

Krstení 1738-1756 Sobášení 1739-1760 Krstení 1756-1761 Zomrelí 1738-
1760 Konvertovaní 1736-1758 Krstení 1761-1804 -  FHL INTL Film [
1924865 Items 6-7 ]

Krstení 1804-1814 Zomrelí 1761-1830 Krstení 1814-1830 Konvertovaní
1762-1831 Sobášení 1761-1830 Krstení 1831-1851 Krstení 1869-1890
Birmovaní 1837-1901 Sobášení 1831-1890 Zomrelí 1831-1890 Sobášení
1891-1896 -  VAULT INTL Film [ 1924866 Items 1-5 ]

Krstení 1891-1895 Zomrelí 1891-1896 -  VAULT INTL Film [ 1924866
Item 6 ]

"Anya: Planyeta" under that "Maria". Similar surnames in phone
listings are Planietova, Planieta, Planeta. Of the Planietas, all
but one live in phone area code 043. That is quite a distance
northwest of Kosice. One lives in area code 044, which is a bit
closer. No cigar.

Not a perfect answer but a start. Unless you get some good advice
from others, it is worth checking Ellis Island to see if we are on
the right track and then moving ahead with church records.

Church Records at LDS Family History Center
When searching for genealogical information, knowing the birth
village is paramount because records are organized by village not
nationally, so it is not possible to search on a national basis. It
is also necessary to know  the religion. To locate church records
for Slovakia, knowing the village/town name, go to the LDS web site:
www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library/FHLC/frameset_fhlc.asp

Locate your nearest Family History Center and Order Film
You can go to the LDS web site to locate your nearest Family History
Center (FHC) and determine their hours of operation. You will need
to go there in person to order the film(s). In about a month, the
film will arrive and you can book a film reader and begin your
research.

Translation of Church Records
Checkout http://www.bmi.net/jjaso/ for parish record header
translations.

LDS also has a pretty good translation guide which you can download.
See forums.delphiforums.com/iarelative/messages message #3931.1 for
details.

1910 Hungarian Map
The old Hungarian map can be found at:
http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/abauj-t.jpg

SAVE the map on YOUR computer. OPEN the map in any graphics program.
CUT and PRINT the relevant section of the map. Otherwise, you just
get a corner. This map uses the Hungarian village names that you
will likely find in church records.

These are the names of villages.
Vladimir

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: jeff_stana
   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 5:48 PM
   Subject: [S-R] Taxpayers but not villages in the 1715 census



   Hello forum,

   Concerning the 1715 Census of Hungary
   (Az 1715. évi országos összeírás),

   when searching by taxpayer (Adózók), some taxpayer names, appear
   listed under something other than a village. For example, "Kis
   Pallugya", "Demén Falva",  "Jász Apati".

   What sort of settlements are these if not villages? Or are they
   different classifications entirely?

   TIA





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "jeff_stana" <jeff@s...> wrote:
>
> Hello forum,
>
> Concerning the 1715 Census of Hungary
> (Az 1715. évi országos összeírás),
>
> when searching by taxpayer (Adózók), some taxpayer names, appear
> listed under something other than a village. For example, "Kis
> Pallugya", "Demén Falva",  "Jász Apati".
>
> What sort of settlements are these if not villages? Or are they
> different classifications entirely?
>
> TIA

One place name  was identifiable.
Jászapáti was actually a  place formerly located near Szolnok in
Jász-Nagykun-Szolnok megye, Hungary (1867-1914)

-falva means "village"  in Hungarian.
kis means "small, little"

Today, megadóztat means to pay on tax.
Adózás means taxation.
Adózik means to pay taxes.

Considering that the 1715 Census was 290 years ago think it is
pretty good to make any sense out of some of the terminology
used back then.

Minden jót !
Good luck !

Frank K

Jászapáti is still there, east of Jászberény, northwest of Jászkisér. You
can find it easily on MapQuest. Deménfalu and Kispalugya were both in Liptó
county, now in Slovakia.

Janet


-----Original Message-----
From: Frank [mailto:frankur@...]
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 2:41 PM
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [S-R] Re: Taxpayers but not villages in the 1715 census



--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "jeff_stana" <jeff@s...> wrote:
>
> Hello forum,
>
> Concerning the 1715 Census of Hungary
> (Az 1715. évi országos összeírás),
>
> when searching by taxpayer (Adózók), some taxpayer names, appear
> listed under something other than a village. For example, "Kis
> Pallugya", "Demén Falva",  "Jász Apati".
>
> What sort of settlements are these if not villages? Or are they
> different classifications entirely?
>
> TIA

One place name  was identifiable.
Jászapáti was actually a  place formerly located near Szolnok in
Jász-Nagykun-Szolnok megye, Hungary (1867-1914)

-falva means "village"  in Hungarian.
kis means "small, little"

Today, megadóztat means to pay on tax.
Adózás means taxation.
Adózik means to pay taxes.

Considering that the 1715 Census was 290 years ago think it is
pretty good to make any sense out of some of the terminology
used back then.

Minden jót !
Good luck !

Frank K








To unsubscribe from this group, go to
http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS  -or- send  blank email to
SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

Thank you- that's not her but it did point me in another direction.
A couple more things I didn't mention in the first post that we do
know about her:  Her birthdate is June 17, 1881 and she came to the
US in 1904 (that's the year my mother gave me).  And she was single
and possibly traveled with her sister Helen.  My mother also gave me
some names of friends she might have traveled with as well.  After
browsing around the Ellis Island records, it seems to me that she
matches best to:

Julia Planeta
ethnicity  Hungary, Slovakia
last res. Casoza
arrival  June 30, 1903
age 22 gender F marital status S
ship Grosser Kurfurst
departure port Bremen

Now, I suppose I should spend a little time checking out "Casoza".

Thank you for the tip!

Lisa

Thank you so much for all this info- I'm printing it out for
reference.

From the other response I got, I searched Ellis Island database a
while.  Since I know that her birthday was June 17, 1881 and my
mother said she came to the US in 1904, possibly with her sister
Helen and she was still single, it would seem to me that she's
possibly the Julia Planeta who arrived at age 22 in 1903 from Casoza.

Yes, under the heading "Kivonat" is a long sentence which is:

A (typed) then handwritten (to the best of my transcription!)
Nagybohlogasszanyrol nevezett Laezai rom katholikus-- (then typed)
egyhaz kerestelesi anyakonyvebol, as ezer (ezer is followed by the
typed letters "kilenezszaz" which is crossed out and written above
it is "nyolezszaznyolezvanegy".  (I'm quite sure I have some of
those letters wrong but that's the best I could figure with my
magnifying glass.)  And the two columns with the
words "szuleteshelye" and "lakasa s hazszama" appears the
word "Laeza" again (with something illegible under it.)

The word before the date at the bottom is very faint.  It is
something like "Kelt (then Y or J) then "r" or "n" ezan, long dash
1902 ik evi szeptember ho 7 n.

There is one more handwritten notation in the lower right hand
corner which is:  Weber tgostong
                   (?) szki nl nok plebanos (priest?)
Then typed: Nyomatott es kaphato Werfer Karolynal Kassan 1900.

So, the village is possibly one of the Sacza variations you listed
or Laeza or Casoza.  Would the US marriage records or soc sec death
index give me an idea of the village of birth?  After she arrived in
the US, she married my great-grandfather whose name was John, who
was also Slovak.  There's some mystery to him as well, because the
first of their children have the last name "Gregor" and then the
rest are "Mudry"- something about him changing his name when he
first arrived and then changing it back to his original name.  He
was born in 1873.  I found a Janos Gregor arriving Sept 9, 1909 at
age 36, married from Fpolyinagyari.  That doesn't completely add up
though, because my grandmother was their last child and she was born
(6th child) in 1920 and I'm pretty sure there was nearly 20 years
age difference from the first child to her.

I'm just not sure how to proceed with family legends that don't add
up and incomplete info.  Guess that's why it's "research", yes?  I'm
really enjoying it, though.

Thanks for your time!

Lisa

Is there any way you can make a photocopy of the original birth
certificate? Could you then scan or fax it?

Could you distill ONLY the possible village names (or parts thereof)
and post on a Hungarian board?

This is the step to moving ahead. I can see possibilities but not
the actual answer. For example, a leading F probably means Felso and
implies Upper. Nagy means "big".

I am guessing that Laeza is the former Laz/Laaz, Trencsen Megye =
county, now called Lazy pod Makytou, Slovakia.

I am also guessing that Casoza is the former Csacza, now Čadca,
Slovakia. These can be seen on the 1910 map at
http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/trencsen.jpg
in the upper middle. Csacza is quite large, in the green area. Go
southwest to the next green area and close to the border to find Laz.

Someone like Peter Nagy could have that birth certificate figured
our very quickly. Once that is done, church records for this area
are available for research from LDS.

John and Lisa,

I agree with John, that the best would be to see a copy of the certificate.

Peter

--
Cilistovska 20
931 01 Samorin
Slovak Republic

tel: +421 31 560 0641
mobile: +421 905 490 552
http://www.centroconsult.sk

Thank you Janet (and Frank and Vladimir),

I have lost faith in ShtetlSeeker, as a deifinitive source -- which
returned no villages for any of these spellings -- even with
corrections.
Since none of these "scores" (Jelzet) were tied to countries
("village, nation" type syntax in the census ), and ShtetlSeeker
returned no Slovak or Hungarian villages, I falsely assumed that no
village existed.
After posting, I did find a reference to Jász Apati, and toyed with
the notion that these villages may have been part of a tax-free
zone --still a possibility.

Again, thank you all for the renewed directions. As they say in
Arizona, much obliged.

Starat sa,
jEFF

--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@c...>
wrote:
> Jászapáti is still there, east of Jászberény, northwest of
Jászkisér. You
> can find it easily on MapQuest. Deménfalu and Kispalugya were both
in Liptó
> county, now in Slovakia.
>
> Janet
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank [mailto:frankur@w...]
> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 2:41 PM
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [S-R] Re: Taxpayers but not villages in the 1715 census
>
>
>
> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "jeff_stana" <jeff@s...>
wrote:
> >
> > Hello forum,
> >
> > Concerning the 1715 Census of Hungary
> > (Az 1715. évi országos összeírás),
> >
> > when searching by taxpayer (Adózók), some taxpayer names, appear
> > listed under something other than a village. For example, "Kis
> > Pallugya", "Demén Falva",  "Jász Apati".
> >
> > What sort of settlements are these if not villages? Or are they
> > different classifications entirely?
> >
> > TIA
>
> One place name  was identifiable.
> Jászapáti was actually a  place formerly located near Szolnok in
> Jász-Nagykun-Szolnok megye, Hungary (1867-1914)
>
> -falva means "village"  in Hungarian.
> kis means "small, little"
>
> Today, megadóztat means to pay on tax.
> Adózás means taxation.
> Adózik means to pay taxes.
>
> Considering that the 1715 Census was 290 years ago think it is
> pretty good to make any sense out of some of the terminology
> used back then.
>
> Minden jót !
> Good luck !
>
> Frank K
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS  -or- send  blank
email to
> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links