Dear Janet,
Although I am always upset, when I see the question " Is this common?", I must
say, that it was quite common among the nobles to live dissolute lives. They had
a lot of money, nothing to do, so they were having fun.Remember, only the King
could trial a Noble.
There is an interesting sying in Slovakia:
What do the burned cake and an illegitimate child have in common?
" Taken out too late!"
Also distinguish;
- a woman, who was pregnant with a nobody or it was too dark to see, who that
was, was doomed.
- a woman, who was pregnant with a wealthy man possessed a strong weapon. Like
today.
Regards,
Vladimir

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Janet Kozlay
   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 10:41 PM
   Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited


   I fear my husband's great-grandfather, in the 1840s, might have been
   responsible for a number of these unwanted pregnancies, much to our dismay.
   His diaries make it clear that he was very sexually active--with just about
   anybody in a skirt--serfs, village "gooses" who had moved to the big city,
   neighbors, sisters of boyfriends, even the pastor's wife.  One letter to him
   suggests that he had fathered at least one child, though she didn't seem
   that unhappy about it: "Your memory will be forever...because that time, you
   know....I will love him, he will be the only object of my love, because I
   will see you in him....."  And he seemed pleased to think that he might have
   impregnated a girl in another casual encounter.  Not a pretty picture when
   the results would have been so drastic for the mother and the baby.
         One poem he wrote was about a girl who sent her newborn baby to the
   father telling him either to keep the little girl or pay her. And if he
   chose to do neither, she would see him sleeping in jail.  None of these
   options, though, would seem to spare the baby the social consequences of
   being illegitimate.

   Janet


   -----Original Message-----
   From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
   Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:49 PM
   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: Re: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited


   Dear Andrea,
   I would expect, that they either die in childhood due to no appropriate care
   or they disappeared, if not legitimized.
   However, if legitimized, then their birth record should have been properly
   modified / corrected.
   More illegitimate children were born in the second half of the century
   because of the industrial revolution and also emergence of the middle class.
   For the first, some girls moved away from home to work in the factory and
   many began to live a more loose life.
   For the second, middle class needed maids. Many maids.
   I found very many illegitimate children in villages surrounding a Spa for
   example. Or where the military Garrisons were, or the railroad was built.
   A traditional village out of reach of civilisation did not have many. Almost
   none. Many were just killed before or just after the birth.
   A book about the traditions writes about the screams of a young mother
   echoing through the valley in the middle of the night, when she was killing
   her baby inside with a woodden stick.
   She knew, she would be doomed.
   In Romania, even not so many years ago, women introduced plastic tubes into
   their wombs and walked with that around, just to provoke abortion.
   Nobody really wanted such kids.
   In bigger towns, there were orphanages, where the children could be
   discretely given away and then the state gave them to other families. I
   think, I wrote about this already. In those times, Vienna had about 10000
   (ten thousand) illegitimate births per year. I counted them.
   Best regards,
   Vladimir


     ----- Original Message -----
     From: Andrea Vangor
     To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
     Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 7:19 PM
     Subject: Re: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited


     Someday I will go back over the church records from Rank and Opina, to see
     what happens to people who are born out of wedlock and whose parents
     subsequently marry.  Or, at least, who acquire a legal father upon their
     mother's marriage.

     If such a person is described as honestus/a, it would suggest that
     legitimacy can be acquired after the fact.

     My own recollection is that more out-of-wedlock births occurred later in
   the
     19th century, after the time when records were usually written in Magyar
     rather than Latin anyway.

     ----- Original Message -----
     From: "Janet Kozlay" <kozlay@...>
     To: <SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com>
     Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 4:25 AM
     Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited


     > Dear Vladimir,
     >
     > Your points are well taken.  I admit that I did not see any Gypsies in
     these
     > records.
     >
     > Is it not possible, however, that this particular priest gave the
   benefit
     of
     > doubt to everyone and assumed that all his parishioners deserved the
     > designation as "honestus"?  Since illegitimacy was not all that rare,
   you
     > would think that some of them might have been "inhonestus," but there
   was
     > not a single instance in these records, over many years, where someone
   was
     > not described as "honestus."
     >
     > If the priest followed the church rules, that sounds as if he would have
     to
     > look up the birth records of every person to determine legitimacy.  That
     > could be quite a job.
     >
     > There does seem to be considerable variation in what information the
     priest
     > provided from church to church.  I think all of them indicated in some
   way
     > or another if a birth was out of wedlock, but few of them were so mean
     > spirited as to describe a bride as "deflorata" for all the world to see
     for
     > eternity.
     >
     > Interesting discussion, yes?
     >
     > Janet
     >
     >
     > -----Original Message-----
     > From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
     > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 11:16 PM
     > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
     > Subject: Re: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
     >
     > Dear Janet,
     > You correctly observed the widespread use of the word honestus. However,
     you
     > are not correct in saying, that " one could not make inferences about
     > legitimacy..." As I already said so many times; Honestus means
     > legitimate.Whoever.
     > There were church rules, that applied to such records.
     > I sent you a copy of a record, that shows the term inhonestus too. This
     was
     > an illegitimate Gipsy.
     > I do not agree, that the term hosnestus is a honorary one.
     > Since there were church rules, the same information is also included in
     > records written in german or czech or slovenian or polish etc.
     > There is nothing to bother about this.
     > Regards,
     > Vladimir
     >
     > It would be good to read more about the Nobles in Hungary. I just
     translated
     > a part of a biography of one man with Noble title, who describes the
   lives
     > of nobles and how some of them came down to the bottom and lost
     everything.
     > Also to consider is the fact, that in those times, many Nobles were
   Noble
     (
     > although nobilitized by the King) based not on their military or similar
     > services and achievements, but they simply asked the King to give them
     such
     > title.
     > I translated such a plea too. It was business. How to elevate onself
   into
     > higher class.Same as today.
     >
     >
     >   ----- Original Message -----
     >   From: Janet Kozlay
     >   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
     >   Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 3:54 AM
     >   Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
     >
     >
     >   The discussion several weeks ago regarding this term has been
   bothering
     > me.
     >   I had suggested that the term meant "honorable" or "respectable" and
   was
     > not
     >   used solely for peasants.  Vladimir pinned my ears back a bit on that
     one
     >   and said it was never used for the nobility.  I assumed then that I
   had
     > been
     >   mistaken.
     >
     >   However, I just returned from viewing church records where everyone in
     the
     >   marriage records was accorded the honorary "honestus" or "honesta."
   The
     >   only exception was a few "relicta vidua"s.  Most of the bridegrooms
   were
     >   designated "honestus juvenis," and the brides were "honesta virgine."
     In
     >   some cases the brides were listed as "honesta puella."  (Whether this
     >   signified a lack of virginity is open to question, since the priest is
     no
     >   longer around to ask.)  But even the "parentes" were accorded the
     honorary
     >   title.  In the cases of nobility, the terms were usually "generosus ac
     >   honestus" or "honestus ac nobilis."
     >
     >   My point here is twofold.  First, it seems to be clear that at least
   in
     >   these records "honestus" or "honesta" were used so universally that
   they
     > had
     >   no real meaning.  One could not make inferences about legitimacy,
     > virginity,
     >   or any other status, noble or otherwise, from their use.  Second,
   there
     is
     >   no "rule" that will apply to every church record.  Only by looking
     > carefully
     >   at the usage in a particular church's record can you make any
   hypotheses
     >   about how specific terms were used.
     >
     >   Janet
     >
     >
     >   -----Original Message-----
     >   From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
     >   Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 2:42 PM
     >   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
     >   Subject: Re: [S-R] "Honestus"
     >
     >
     >   Dear Andrea,
     >   The term honestus only means legitimate. When the latin was changed to
     >   slovak, the same meaning was written as:
     >   " s poctive suloze", which means from the honest copulation ( or
   laying
     in
     >   bed together)
     >   German records follow similar rule, so they use the words: ' ehelicher
     > Sohn"
     >   for a son, born in wedlock or legitimate.
     >   The only respectable members of the community ( parish), were the
     > Landlords
     >   and other Nobles and later teachers and other officials and priests,
   but
     > the
     >   term honestus was never used for describing them as such.
     >   Since this is a historical fact, no consensus is needed.
     >   Best regards,
     >   Vladimir
     >
     >     ----- Original Message -----
     >     From: Andrea Vangor
     >     To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
     >     Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 9:06 PM
     >     Subject: [S-R] "Honestus"
     >
     >
     >     Do we have any consensus as to the meaning of the terms "honestus"
   and
     >     "honesta" that occur in church records written in Latin?
     >
     >     Do the terms mean that the person is a respectable member of the
     >   community,
     >     or merely that he or she is of legitimate birth?  Or, is it some
   kind
     of
     >     generic low-level honorific for peasants?
     >
     >
     >
     >     To unsubscribe from this group, go to
     >   http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS  -or- send  blank email
   to
     >   SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Vladimir,
I think you have described the situation very well.  Our diarist was indeed
a wealthy nobleman, with looks and charm to match.  (You can see his
portrait as well as a description of our manuscripts at
http://www.sk-szeged.hu/szolgaltatas/vasvary/newsletter/03jun/kozlay.html.)

But his "dissolute" lifestyle came to an abrupt halt when he immigrated to
the U.S., penniless and without an occupation.  He discovered that there was
"no shame in working" and eventually melted into the great American middle
class.  He doubtless never lost his eye for a pretty girl, but he found the
American culture to be quite different from that in his homeland.

I am working hard to make a translation of these manuscripts public, and I
plan to publish the results on a website.  But it's an enormous task, so it
will be a while.

Incidentally, the peasants who came to the U.S. during the Great Immigration
period also experienced significant culture clash.  The reputation they
earned here at least for drinking and violence is well documented and may be
partially responsible for the discrimination they suffered.  But they, too,
eventually "settled down" and adopted a much more toned down lifestyle.

Many people on this list deplore the fact that their immigrant ancestors
never wanted to talk about their lives in "the old country."  Their
reluctance was not solely due to how awful their lives had been.  Emigration
was a watershed event.  Even Eugene, when asked by his son, said "That's all
in the past.  I'm an American now."

Vladimir, your sayings are great.  We all need to thank you for helping us
understand many little-understood aspects of the lives of our immigrant
ancestors.

Janet

Janet:

Well-put -- I think we've all had alcohol-related
issues -- whether it be immediate or distant family --
and having been humbled by the work ethic here.
Vlad did a good job of explaining situations, I agree.
  Even I wonder why my gram was the one and only
sibling (of 9) to come here -- maybe she had some
secrets left behind that she needed to abandon.  I'm
prepared to uncover some fool's gold amid my treasure
-- thanks for sharing.


Caye


--- Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...> wrote:

> Dear Vladimir,
> I think you have described the situation very well.
> Our diarist was indeed
> a wealthy nobleman, with looks and charm to match.
> (You can see his
> portrait as well as a description of our manuscripts
> at
>
http://www.sk-szeged.hu/szolgaltatas/vasvary/newsletter/03jun/kozlay.html.)
>
>
> But his "dissolute" lifestyle came to an abrupt halt
> when he immigrated to
> the U.S., penniless and without an occupation.  He
> discovered that there was
> "no shame in working" and eventually melted into the
> great American middle
> class.  He doubtless never lost his eye for a pretty
> girl, but he found the
> American culture to be quite different from that in
> his homeland.
>
> I am working hard to make a translation of these
> manuscripts public, and I
> plan to publish the results on a website.  But it's
> an enormous task, so it
> will be a while.
>
> Incidentally, the peasants who came to the U.S.
> during the Great Immigration
> period also experienced significant culture clash.
> The reputation they
> earned here at least for drinking and violence is
> well documented and may be
> partially responsible for the discrimination they
> suffered.  But they, too,
> eventually "settled down" and adopted a much more
> toned down lifestyle.
>
> Many people on this list deplore the fact that their
> immigrant ancestors
> never wanted to talk about their lives in "the old
> country."  Their
> reluctance was not solely due to how awful their
> lives had been.  Emigration
> was a watershed event.  Even Eugene, when asked by
> his son, said "That's all
> in the past.  I'm an American now."
>
> Vladimir, your sayings are great.  We all need to
> thank you for helping us
> understand many little-understood aspects of the
> lives of our immigrant
> ancestors.
>
> Janet
>
>
>
>




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Dear Caye,
Some of us have to go back over the burned bridges.
I also have one such taboo in my family which I have to break one day.
Vladimir

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Caye Caswick
   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 5:29 PM
   Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited



   Janet:

   Well-put -- I think we've all had alcohol-related
   issues -- whether it be immediate or distant family --
   and having been humbled by the work ethic here.
   Vlad did a good job of explaining situations, I agree.
   Even I wonder why my gram was the one and only
   sibling (of 9) to come here -- maybe she had some
   secrets left behind that she needed to abandon.  I'm
   prepared to uncover some fool's gold amid my treasure
   -- thanks for sharing.


   Caye


   --- Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...> wrote:

   > Dear Vladimir,
   > I think you have described the situation very well.
   > Our diarist was indeed
   > a wealthy nobleman, with looks and charm to match.
   > (You can see his
   > portrait as well as a description of our manuscripts
   > at
   >
   http://www.sk-szeged.hu/szolgaltatas/vasvary/newsletter/03jun/kozlay.html.)
   >
   >
   > But his "dissolute" lifestyle came to an abrupt halt
   > when he immigrated to
   > the U.S., penniless and without an occupation.  He
   > discovered that there was
   > "no shame in working" and eventually melted into the
   > great American middle
   > class.  He doubtless never lost his eye for a pretty
   > girl, but he found the
   > American culture to be quite different from that in
   > his homeland.
   >
   > I am working hard to make a translation of these
   > manuscripts public, and I
   > plan to publish the results on a website.  But it's
   > an enormous task, so it
   > will be a while.
   >
   > Incidentally, the peasants who came to the U.S.
   > during the Great Immigration
   > period also experienced significant culture clash.
   > The reputation they
   > earned here at least for drinking and violence is
   > well documented and may be
   > partially responsible for the discrimination they
   > suffered.  But they, too,
   > eventually "settled down" and adopted a much more
   > toned down lifestyle.
   >
   > Many people on this list deplore the fact that their
   > immigrant ancestors
   > never wanted to talk about their lives in "the old
   > country."  Their
   > reluctance was not solely due to how awful their
   > lives had been.  Emigration
   > was a watershed event.  Even Eugene, when asked by
   > his son, said "That's all
   > in the past.  I'm an American now."
   >
   > Vladimir, your sayings are great.  We all need to
   > thank you for helping us
   > understand many little-understood aspects of the
   > lives of our immigrant
   > ancestors.
   >
   > Janet
   >
   >
   >
   >




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Hey you guys . . . look what else I found . . .

http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/su/slavic/wofam1_00.html

Those who can read Hungarian or other European
languages may fare better than I . . . but I certainly
understand the topic of all this research . . . pretty
interesting looking stuff.


Caye



--- Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:

> Janet,
>
> I'm surprised, given the tight control that most
> small village residents
> imposed on their citizens.
>
> You may want to read some excerpts I pulled from
> "Slovak Family Traditions"
> http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/traditions.htm
>
> published by Vydavatelstvo Slovenskej akademie on
> this exact subject.  It's
> an interesting investigation done by an acknowledged
> Slovak cultural
> institution.  I would not be so bold as to assume it
> holds true for all
> villages, it is certainly interesting since the
> research was done by Slovaks
> in Slovakia.
>
> Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Janet Kozlay [mailto:kozlay@...]
> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:38 PM
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
>
>
>
> Well, yes, most of it seemed to occur in “small,
> rural villages" in Hungary;
> other encounters were in Budapest and on his way out
> of Hungary as he fled
> from the Austrians following the 1848-49 war.  I
> will say that he seemed to
> be pursued as much as he was the pursuer.
>
> It is very difficult to find any information on
> customary sexual behavior.
> Ethnographers tend to avoid this subject altogether.
>  So there is no way to
> know whether this behavior was common, or whether,
> as my translator said, he
> was a “very hot Hungarian."  But the overall sense
> from the diaries was that
> premarital and extramarital sex was extremely common
> in the first half of
> the 19th century.
>
> Although he seemed to “grow up“ a bit after he
> immigrated to America in
> 1849-50, my communication with other descendants of
> these émigrés suggests
> that they developed a reputation for their open
> sexual proclivities.
>
> I would be especially interested in learning whether
> this was more common
> among the nobility than the peasantry, but such
> information probably just
> does not exist.  Our manuscripts offer a very rare
> glimpse into one
> individual's experiences which may or may not be
> applicable to the wider
> culture.
>
> Janet
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Tarkulich
> [mailto:bill.tarkulich@...]
> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 6:49 PM
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
>
> I cannot imagine this happening in a small, rural
> village.  Did he live in a
> heavily populated area, city or town? Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Janet Kozlay [mailto:kozlay@...]
> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 4:41 PM
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
>
>
> I fear my husband's great-grandfather, in the 1840s,
> might have been
> responsible for a number of these unwanted
> pregnancies, much to our dismay.
> His diaries make it clear that he was very sexually
> active--with just about
> anybody in a skirt--serfs, village "gooses" who had
> moved to the big city,
> neighbors, sisters of boyfriends, even the pastor's
> wife.  One letter to him
> suggests that he had fathered at least one child,
> though she didn't seem
> that unhappy about it: "Your memory will be
> forever...because that time, you
> know....I will love him, he will be the only object
> of my love, because I
> will see you in him....."  And he seemed pleased to
> think that he might have
> impregnated a girl in another casual encounter.  Not
> a pretty picture when
> the results would have been so drastic for the
> mother and the baby.
>  One poem he wrote was about a girl who sent her
> newborn baby to the
> father telling him either to keep the little girl or
> pay her. And if he
> chose to do neither, she would see him sleeping in
> jail.  None of these
> options, though, would seem to spare the baby the
> social consequences of
> being illegitimate.
>
> Janet
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:49 PM
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
>
>
> Dear Andrea,
> I would expect, that they either die in childhood
> due to no appropriate care
> or they disappeared, if not legitimized. However, if
> legitimized, then their
> birth record should have been properly modified /
> corrected. More
> illegitimate children were born in the second half
> of the century because of
> the industrial revolution and also emergence of the
> middle class. For the
> first, some girls moved away from home to work in
> the factory and many began
> to live a more loose life. For the second, middle
> class needed maids. Many
> maids. I found very many illegitimate children in
> villages surrounding a Spa
> for example. Or where the military Garrisons were,
> or the railroad was
> built. A traditional village out of reach of
> civilisation did not have many.
> Almost none. Many were just killed before or just
> after the birth. A book
> about the traditions writes about the screams of a
> young mother echoing
> through the valley in the middle of the night, when
> she was killing her baby
> inside with a woodden stick. She knew, she would be
> doomed. In Romania, even
> not so many years ago, women introduced plastic
> tubes into their wombs and
> walked with that around, just to provoke abortion.
> Nobody really wanted such
> kids. In bigger towns, there were orphanages, where
> the children could be
> discretely given away and then the state gave them
> to other families. I
> think, I wrote about this already. In those times,
> Vienna had about 10000
> (ten thousand) illegitimate births per year. I
> counted them. Best regards,
> Vladimir
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Andrea Vangor
>   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 7:19 PM
>   Subject: Re: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
>
>
>   Someday I will go back over the church records
> from Rank and Opina, to see
>   what happens to people who are born out of wedlock
> and whose parents
>   subsequently marry.  Or, at least, who acquire a
> legal father upon their
>   mother's marriage.
>
>   If such a person is described as honestus/a, it
> would suggest that
>   legitimacy can be acquired after the fact.
>
>   My own recollection is that more out-of-wedlock
> births occurred later in
> the
>   19th century, after the time when records were
> usually written in Magyar
>   rather than Latin anyway.
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>
=== message truncated ===




_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
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The list does look like it covers some interesting topics. It's too bad so
many of us are language-challenged.  There really is a lot out there if we
could only read it.

By the way, I have been advised that the URL I sent for the article does not
work, and she is right.  Why, I have no idea.  I copied it directly from the
article.  The easiest way to find it is to search on Kozlay for “The
Writings of Eugene Kozlay: 19th-Century Hungarian Émigré."  It should be the
second entry in Google.

Janet


-----Original Message-----
From: Caye Caswick [mailto:ccaswick@...]
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 1:46 PM
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited



Hey you guys . . . look what else I found . . .

http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/su/slavic/wofam1_00.html

Those who can read Hungarian or other European
languages may fare better than I . . . but I certainly
understand the topic of all this research . . . pretty
interesting looking stuff.


Caye



--- Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:

> Janet,
>
> I'm surprised, given the tight control that most
> small village residents
> imposed on their citizens.
>
> You may want to read some excerpts I pulled from
> "Slovak Family Traditions"
> http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/traditions.htm
>
> published by Vydavatelstvo Slovenskej akademie on
> this exact subject.  It's
> an interesting investigation done by an acknowledged
> Slovak cultural
> institution.  I would not be so bold as to assume it
> holds true for all
> villages, it is certainly interesting since the
> research was done by Slovaks
> in Slovakia.
>
> Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Janet Kozlay [mailto:kozlay@...]
> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:38 PM
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
>
>
>
> Well, yes, most of it seemed to occur in small,
> rural villages" in Hungary;
> other encounters were in Budapest and on his way out
> of Hungary as he fled
> from the Austrians following the 1848-49 war.  I
> will say that he seemed to
> be pursued as much as he was the pursuer.
>
> It is very difficult to find any information on
> customary sexual behavior.
> Ethnographers tend to avoid this subject altogether.
>  So there is no way to
> know whether this behavior was common, or whether,
> as my translator said, he
> was a very hot Hungarian."  But the overall sense
> from the diaries was that
> premarital and extramarital sex was extremely common
> in the first half of
> the 19th century.
>
> Although he seemed to grow up a bit after he
> immigrated to America in
> 1849-50, my communication with other descendants of
> these imigris suggests
> that they developed a reputation for their open
> sexual proclivities.
>
> I would be especially interested in learning whether
> this was more common
> among the nobility than the peasantry, but such
> information probably just
> does not exist.  Our manuscripts offer a very rare
> glimpse into one
> individual's experiences which may or may not be
> applicable to the wider
> culture.
>
> Janet
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Tarkulich
> [mailto:bill.tarkulich@...]
> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 6:49 PM
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
>
> I cannot imagine this happening in a small, rural
> village.  Did he live in a
> heavily populated area, city or town? Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Janet Kozlay [mailto:kozlay@...]
> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 4:41 PM
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
>
>
> I fear my husband's great-grandfather, in the 1840s,
> might have been
> responsible for a number of these unwanted
> pregnancies, much to our dismay.
> His diaries make it clear that he was very sexually
> active--with just about
> anybody in a skirt--serfs, village "gooses" who had
> moved to the big city,
> neighbors, sisters of boyfriends, even the pastor's
> wife.  One letter to him
> suggests that he had fathered at least one child,
> though she didn't seem
> that unhappy about it: "Your memory will be
> forever...because that time, you
> know....I will love him, he will be the only object
> of my love, because I
> will see you in him....."  And he seemed pleased to
> think that he might have
> impregnated a girl in another casual encounter.  Not
> a pretty picture when
> the results would have been so drastic for the
> mother and the baby.
>  One poem he wrote was about a girl who sent her
> newborn baby to the
> father telling him either to keep the little girl or
> pay her. And if he
> chose to do neither, she would see him sleeping in
> jail.  None of these
> options, though, would seem to spare the baby the
> social consequences of
> being illegitimate.
>
> Janet
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:49 PM
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
>
>
> Dear Andrea,
> I would expect, that they either die in childhood
> due to no appropriate care
> or they disappeared, if not legitimized. However, if
> legitimized, then their
> birth record should have been properly modified /
> corrected. More
> illegitimate children were born in the second half
> of the century because of
> the industrial revolution and also emergence of the
> middle class. For the
> first, some girls moved away from home to work in
> the factory and many began
> to live a more loose life. For the second, middle
> class needed maids. Many
> maids. I found very many illegitimate children in
> villages surrounding a Spa
> for example. Or where the military Garrisons were,
> or the railroad was
> built. A traditional village out of reach of
> civilisation did not have many.
> Almost none. Many were just killed before or just
> after the birth. A book
> about the traditions writes about the screams of a
> young mother echoing
> through the valley in the middle of the night, when
> she was killing her baby
> inside with a woodden stick. She knew, she would be
> doomed. In Romania, even
> not so many years ago, women introduced plastic
> tubes into their wombs and
> walked with that around, just to provoke abortion.
> Nobody really wanted such
> kids. In bigger towns, there were orphanages, where
> the children could be
> discretely given away and then the state gave them
> to other families. I
> think, I wrote about this already. In those times,
> Vienna had about 10000
> (ten thousand) illegitimate births per year. I
> counted them. Best regards,
> Vladimir
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Andrea Vangor
>   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 7:19 PM
>   Subject: Re: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
>
>
>   Someday I will go back over the church records
> from Rank and Opina, to see
>   what happens to people who are born out of wedlock
> and whose parents
>   subsequently marry.  Or, at least, who acquire a
> legal father upon their
>   mother's marriage.
>
>   If such a person is described as honestus/a, it
> would suggest that
>   legitimacy can be acquired after the fact.
>
>   My own recollection is that more out-of-wedlock
> births occurred later in
> the
>   19th century, after the time when records were
> usually written in Magyar
>   rather than Latin anyway.
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>
=== message truncated ===




_______________________________
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Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
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To unsubscribe from this group, go to
http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS  -or- send  blank email to
SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

As suggested by another . . . it will work (and did
for me) if you highlight the link and copy it then
paste it into the Address window of your web browser.
I agree, Janet, language challenged is a big obstacle
-- imagine our ancestors doing it the opposite way.

Caye



--- Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...> wrote:

> The list does look like it covers some interesting
> topics. It's too bad so
> many of us are language-challenged.  There really is
> a lot out there if we
> could only read it.
>
> By the way, I have been advised that the URL I sent
> for the article does not
> work, and she is right.  Why, I have no idea.  I
> copied it directly from the
> article.  The easiest way to find it is to search on
> Kozlay for “The
> Writings of Eugene Kozlay: 19th-Century Hungarian
> Émigré."  It should be the
> second entry in Google.
>
> Janet
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Caye Caswick [mailto:ccaswick@...]
> Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 1:46 PM
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
>
>
>
> Hey you guys . . . look what else I found . . .
>
>
http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/su/slavic/wofam1_00.html
>
> Those who can read Hungarian or other European
> languages may fare better than I . . . but I
> certainly
> understand the topic of all this research . . .
> pretty
> interesting looking stuff.
>
>
> Caye
>
>
>
> --- Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...> wrote:
>
> > Janet,
> >
> > I'm surprised, given the tight control that most
> > small village residents
> > imposed on their citizens.
> >
> > You may want to read some excerpts I pulled from
> > "Slovak Family Traditions"
> > http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/traditions.htm
> >
> > published by Vydavatelstvo Slovenskej akademie on
> > this exact subject.  It's
> > an interesting investigation done by an
> acknowledged
> > Slovak cultural
> > institution.  I would not be so bold as to assume
> it
> > holds true for all
> > villages, it is certainly interesting since the
> > research was done by Slovaks
> > in Slovakia.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Janet Kozlay [mailto:kozlay@...]
> > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:38 PM
> > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
> >
> >
> >
> > Well, yes, most of it seemed to occur in small,
> > rural villages" in Hungary;
> > other encounters were in Budapest and on his way
> out
> > of Hungary as he fled
> > from the Austrians following the 1848-49 war.  I
> > will say that he seemed to
> > be pursued as much as he was the pursuer.
> >
> > It is very difficult to find any information on
> > customary sexual behavior.
> > Ethnographers tend to avoid this subject
> altogether.
> >  So there is no way to
> > know whether this behavior was common, or whether,
> > as my translator said, he
> > was a very hot Hungarian."  But the overall sense
> > from the diaries was that
> > premarital and extramarital sex was extremely
> common
> > in the first half of
> > the 19th century.
> >
> > Although he seemed to grow up a bit after he
> > immigrated to America in
> > 1849-50, my communication with other descendants
> of
> > these imigris suggests
> > that they developed a reputation for their open
> > sexual proclivities.
> >
> > I would be especially interested in learning
> whether
> > this was more common
> > among the nobility than the peasantry, but such
> > information probably just
> > does not exist.  Our manuscripts offer a very rare
> > glimpse into one
> > individual's experiences which may or may not be
> > applicable to the wider
> > culture.
> >
> > Janet
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bill Tarkulich
> > [mailto:bill.tarkulich@...]
> > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 6:49 PM
> > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
> >
> > I cannot imagine this happening in a small, rural
> > village.  Did he live in a
> > heavily populated area, city or town? Bill
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Janet Kozlay [mailto:kozlay@...]
> > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 4:41 PM
> > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
> >
> >
> > I fear my husband's great-grandfather, in the
> 1840s,
> > might have been
> > responsible for a number of these unwanted
> > pregnancies, much to our dismay.
> > His diaries make it clear that he was very
> sexually
> > active--with just about
> > anybody in a skirt--serfs, village "gooses" who
> had
> > moved to the big city,
> > neighbors, sisters of boyfriends, even the
> pastor's
> > wife.  One letter to him
> > suggests that he had fathered at least one child,
> > though she didn't seem
> > that unhappy about it: "Your memory will be
> > forever...because that time, you
> > know....I will love him, he will be the only
> object
> > of my love, because I
> > will see you in him....."  And he seemed pleased
> to
> > think that he might have
> > impregnated a girl in another casual encounter.
> Not
> > a pretty picture when
> > the results would have been so drastic for the
> > mother and the baby.
> >  One poem he wrote was about a girl who sent her
> > newborn baby to the
> > father telling him either to keep the little girl
> or
> > pay her. And if he
> > chose to do neither, she would see him sleeping in
> > jail.  None of these
> > options, though, would seem to spare the baby the
> > social consequences of
> > being illegitimate.
> >
> > Janet
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
> > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:49 PM
> > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
> >
> >
> > Dear Andrea,
> > I would expect, that they either die in childhood
> > due to no appropriate care
> > or they disappeared, if not legitimized. However,
> if
> > legitimized, then their
> > birth record should have been properly modified /
> > corrected. More
> > illegitimate children were born in the second half
> > of the century because of
> > the industrial revolution and also emergence of
> the
>
=== message truncated ===




_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com

Also found another discussion --

http://www.fortklock.com/bundling.htm

which involved a thread including our very own Bill
Tarkulich in RootsWeb's message boards.


Caye





--- Caye Caswick <ccaswick@...> wrote:

>
> As suggested by another . . . it will work (and did
> for me) if you highlight the link and copy it then
> paste it into the Address window of your web
> browser.
> I agree, Janet, language challenged is a big
> obstacle
> -- imagine our ancestors doing it the opposite way.
>
> Caye
>
>
>
> --- Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...> wrote:
>
> > The list does look like it covers some interesting
> > topics. It's too bad so
> > many of us are language-challenged.  There really
> is
> > a lot out there if we
> > could only read it.
> >
> > By the way, I have been advised that the URL I
> sent
> > for the article does not
> > work, and she is right.  Why, I have no idea.  I
> > copied it directly from the
> > article.  The easiest way to find it is to search
> on
> > Kozlay for “The
> > Writings of Eugene Kozlay: 19th-Century Hungarian
> > Émigré."  It should be the
> > second entry in Google.
> >
> > Janet
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Caye Caswick [mailto:ccaswick@...]
> > Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 1:46 PM
> > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
> >
> >
> >
> > Hey you guys . . . look what else I found . . .
> >
> >
>
http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/su/slavic/wofam1_00.html
> >
> > Those who can read Hungarian or other European
> > languages may fare better than I . . . but I
> > certainly
> > understand the topic of all this research . . .
> > pretty
> > interesting looking stuff.
> >
> >
> > Caye
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Bill Tarkulich <bill.tarkulich@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Janet,
> > >
> > > I'm surprised, given the tight control that most
> > > small village residents
> > > imposed on their citizens.
> > >
> > > You may want to read some excerpts I pulled from
> > > "Slovak Family Traditions"
> > > http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/traditions.htm
>
> > >
> > > published by Vydavatelstvo Slovenskej akademie
> on
> > > this exact subject.  It's
> > > an interesting investigation done by an
> > acknowledged
> > > Slovak cultural
> > > institution.  I would not be so bold as to
> assume
> > it
> > > holds true for all
> > > villages, it is certainly interesting since the
> > > research was done by Slovaks
> > > in Slovakia.
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Janet Kozlay [mailto:kozlay@...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:38 PM
> > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Well, yes, most of it seemed to occur in small,
> > > rural villages" in Hungary;
> > > other encounters were in Budapest and on his way
> > out
> > > of Hungary as he fled
> > > from the Austrians following the 1848-49 war.  I
> > > will say that he seemed to
> > > be pursued as much as he was the pursuer.
> > >
> > > It is very difficult to find any information on
> > > customary sexual behavior.
> > > Ethnographers tend to avoid this subject
> > altogether.
> > >  So there is no way to
> > > know whether this behavior was common, or
> whether,
> > > as my translator said, he
> > > was a very hot Hungarian."  But the overall
> sense
> > > from the diaries was that
> > > premarital and extramarital sex was extremely
> > common
> > > in the first half of
> > > the 19th century.
> > >
> > > Although he seemed to grow up a bit after he
> > > immigrated to America in
> > > 1849-50, my communication with other descendants
> > of
> > > these imigris suggests
> > > that they developed a reputation for their open
> > > sexual proclivities.
> > >
> > > I would be especially interested in learning
> > whether
> > > this was more common
> > > among the nobility than the peasantry, but such
> > > information probably just
> > > does not exist.  Our manuscripts offer a very
> rare
> > > glimpse into one
> > > individual's experiences which may or may not be
> > > applicable to the wider
> > > culture.
> > >
> > > Janet
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Bill Tarkulich
> > > [mailto:bill.tarkulich@...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 6:49 PM
> > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
> > >
> > > I cannot imagine this happening in a small,
> rural
> > > village.  Did he live in a
> > > heavily populated area, city or town? Bill
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Janet Kozlay [mailto:kozlay@...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 4:41 PM
> > > To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: RE: [S-R] "Honestus" Revisited
> > >
> > >
> > > I fear my husband's great-grandfather, in the
> > 1840s,
> > > might have been
> > > responsible for a number of these unwanted
> > > pregnancies, much to our dismay.
> > > His diaries make it clear that he was very
> > sexually
> > > active--with just about
> > > anybody in a skirt--serfs, village "gooses" who
> > had
> > > moved to the big city,
> > > neighbors, sisters of boyfriends, even the
> > pastor's
> > > wife.  One letter to him
> > > suggests that he had fathered at least one
> child,
> > > though she didn't seem
> > > that unhappy about it: "Your memory will be
> > > forever...because that time, you
> > > know....I will love him, he will be the only
> > object
> > > of my love, because I
> > > will see you in him....."  And he seemed pleased
> > to
> > > think that he might have
> > > impregnated a girl in another casual encounter.
> > Not
> > > a pretty picture when
> > > the results would have been so drastic for the
> > > mother and the baby.
> > >  One poem he wrote was about a girl who sent her
> > > newborn baby to the
> > > father telling him either to keep the little
> girl
>
=== message truncated ===




_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
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In a message dated 10/1/04 6:31:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
kozlay@... writes:

> http://www.sk-szeged.hu/szolgaltatas/vasvary/newsletter/03jun/kozlay.html

Eurgene Kozlay was indeed a good looking soldier.  Janet, first chance i get,
it is off to the Library of Congress in Washington, DC.
thanks for the link to your site.
Noreen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A few of the immigrants may have come here looking to escape from a bad marriage
back home.  My mother had told me that when talking about the husband of a
great-aunt of mine,  all the old baba's would whisper "you know he has another
wife in the Old Country"  !!!!!!!!!

Caye Caswick <ccaswick@...> wrote:
Janet:

Well-put -- I think we've all had alcohol-related
issues -- whether it be immediate or distant family --
and having been humbled by the work ethic here.
Vlad did a good job of explaining situations, I agree.
Even I wonder why my gram was the one and only
sibling (of 9) to come here -- maybe she had some
secrets left behind that she needed to abandon.  I'm
prepared to uncover some fool's gold amid my treasure
-- thanks for sharing.


Caye

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Hi!  I don't usually leave messages, but do enjoy immensely reading them! 
Especially Vladimir, he writes some very interesting messages.  Anyway, a group
of us volunteer at our local courthouse weekly, trying to sort out and index the
naturalization papers from about 1804 through the 1940's, etc.(Through our local
genealogy society).  We have come across some males from Germany, Italy,
Slovakia, etc. that have applied for citizenship back in the 40's.  They were
turned down because a letter was sent back to their native country to the former
wife and she wrote a nasty letter about her former husband and he was denied
citizenship.I don't really think they were "former". It looked like they were
still married, but the husband got married again to someone else in this
country. Not everyone was granted citizenship and there were different reasons,
but I imagine that a lot of wives didn't want to go to America because of
leaving their relatives. Some males listed their wives and children
  still living in their native country.
                                                                                                            
Carol S.
Caye Caswick <ccaswick@...> wrote:
Janet:

Well-put -- I think we've all had alcohol-related
issues -- whether it be immediate or distant family --
and having been humbled by the work ethic here.
Vlad did a good job of explaining situations, I agree.
Even I wonder why my gram was the one and only
sibling (of 9) to come here -- maybe she had some
secrets left behind that she needed to abandon.  I'm
prepared to uncover some fool's gold amid my treasure
-- thanks for sharing.


Caye


--- Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...> wrote:

> Dear Vladimir,
> I think you have described the situation very well.
> Our diarist was indeed
> a wealthy nobleman, with looks and charm to match.
> (You can see his
> portrait as well as a description of our manuscripts
> at
>
http://www.sk-szeged.hu/szolgaltatas/vasvary/newsletter/03jun/kozlay.html.)
>
>
> But his "dissolute" lifestyle came to an abrupt halt
> when he immigrated to
> the U.S., penniless and without an occupation.  He
> discovered that there was
> "no shame in working" and eventually melted into the
> great American middle
> class.  He doubtless never lost his eye for a pretty
> girl, but he found the
> American culture to be quite different from that in
> his homeland.
>
> I am working hard to make a translation of these
> manuscripts public, and I
> plan to publish the results on a website.  But it's
> an enormous task, so it
> will be a while.
>
> Incidentally, the peasants who came to the U.S.
> during the Great Immigration
> period also experienced significant culture clash.
> The reputation they
> earned here at least for drinking and violence is
> well documented and may be
> partially responsible for the discrimination they
> suffered.  But they, too,
> eventually "settled down" and adopted a much more
> toned down lifestyle.
>
> Many people on this list deplore the fact that their
> immigrant ancestors
> never wanted to talk about their lives in "the old
> country."  Their
> reluctance was not solely due to how awful their
> lives had been.  Emigration
> was a watershed event.  Even Eugene, when asked by
> his son, said "That's all
> in the past.  I'm an American now."
>
> Vladimir, your sayings are great.  We all need to
> thank you for helping us
> understand many little-understood aspects of the
> lives of our immigrant
> ancestors.
>
> Janet
>
>
>
>




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bill, I would like to thank you for posting your excerpts from “Slovak
Family Traditions,“ which I recall having read from a previous post of
yours, as well as the remarkable Grisak autobiography.

My own research in this area has led me to conclude that there was a fairly
common culture among the peasants throughout Central Europe regardless of
their particular ethnicity or language.  Nearly everything in your excerpts
and in the Grisak work is described in Fél and Hofer's “Proper Peasants,“
though they go into much greater detail and in the case of the excerpts are
far more readable.  Their book, based on an intensive study of a single
village on the Hungarian Plain, is widely available and fairly inexpensive.
Descriptions I have read of the culture of Germans who migrated to Hungary
also do not appear to differ materially.  I suspect the same is true of the
peasant culture of surrounding regions.  One would expect some variations
from area to area, and even village to village, but in my view the
commonality of the customs and traditions is far more striking.  Just one
example is the custom of men sleeping in the stables, while the women and
children slept in the house.  Others include the courtship rituals of young
men, the violence that often occurred when a young man courted a girl out of
his community, the tradition of young men drinking and dancing till the wee
hours until they married and settled down, and the pathetic position of
daughters-in-law in a household.

I am looking forward to Vladimir's contributions and would be very
interested in learning if he agrees.

Janet

Dear Janet,
I agree with everything, since these are more or less all facts. This is what
one could count into Slavic culture.
Since were are all Slavs, we have many things in common. Slavs in different
cuntries ( in Europe)were naturally under influence of their master nations or
neighbors, so you can find this in variations too. Villages or areas, which were
awau from trade lines, were less exposed to such influences and kept their old
customs longer. Many of the customs go far back into the pagan era, where there
was no Christianity.
Every village was and to a large extent still is a closed community, often with
it's own, unwritten rules.
A foreigner, or anyone "different' will have a hard time in it, unless he adopts
and subdues. The most feared weapon is gossip. It can kill people softly, or
drive them mad. Another weapon is envy.It destroys much of good or new.
The book Bill is refering to I bought already a year or two ago. It describes
wery much , but I am not very happy with the language. It is too dry, without
any spirit or soul. It is evident, that it was written by people, who were
educated in the past communist regime, where a person was only a statistical
item. The writers do not care much about the reader.
I would have writte it differently. I will touch this subject later in my
article for Nase Rodina.
Regards,
Vladimir


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Janet Kozlay
   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 4:07 AM
   Subject: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions


   Bill, I would like to thank you for posting your excerpts from "Slovak
   Family Traditions," which I recall having read from a previous post of
   yours, as well as the remarkable Grisak autobiography.

   My own research in this area has led me to conclude that there was a fairly
   common culture among the peasants throughout Central Europe regardless of
   their particular ethnicity or language.  Nearly everything in your excerpts
   and in the Grisak work is described in Fél and Hofer's "Proper Peasants,"
   though they go into much greater detail and in the case of the excerpts are
   far more readable.  Their book, based on an intensive study of a single
   village on the Hungarian Plain, is widely available and fairly inexpensive.
   Descriptions I have read of the culture of Germans who migrated to Hungary
   also do not appear to differ materially.  I suspect the same is true of the
   peasant culture of surrounding regions.  One would expect some variations
   from area to area, and even village to village, but in my view the
   commonality of the customs and traditions is far more striking.  Just one
   example is the custom of men sleeping in the stables, while the women and
   children slept in the house.  Others include the courtship rituals of young
   men, the violence that often occurred when a young man courted a girl out of
   his community, the tradition of young men drinking and dancing till the wee
   hours until they married and settled down, and the pathetic position of
   daughters-in-law in a household.

   I am looking forward to Vladimir's contributions and would be very
   interested in learning if he agrees.

   Janet





   To unsubscribe from this group, go to
http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS  -or- send  blank email to
SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Vladimir,
How and where can we go about obtaining the publications of " Nase Rodina"?
It sounds like a good read.
Regards,
Bill


-----Original Message-----
From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 2:44 AM
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions



Dear Janet,
I agree with everything, since these are more or less all facts. This is
what one could count into Slavic culture. Since were are all Slavs, we have
many things in common. Slavs in different cuntries ( in Europe)were
naturally under influence of their master nations or neighbors, so you can
find this in variations too. Villages or areas, which were awau from trade
lines, were less exposed to such influences and kept their old customs
longer. Many of the customs go far back into the pagan era, where there was
no Christianity. Every village was and to a large extent still is a closed
community, often with it's own, unwritten rules. A foreigner, or anyone
"different' will have a hard time in it, unless he adopts and subdues. The
most feared weapon is gossip. It can kill people softly, or drive them mad.
Another weapon is envy.It destroys much of good or new. The book Bill is
refering to I bought already a year or two ago. It describes wery much , but
I am not very happy with the language. It is too dry, without any spirit or
soul. It is evident, that it was written by people, who were educated in the
past communist regime, where a person was only a statistical item. The
writers do not care much about the reader. I would have writte it
differently. I will touch this subject later in my article for Nase Rodina.
Regards, Vladimir


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Janet Kozlay
   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 4:07 AM
   Subject: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions


   Bill, I would like to thank you for posting your excerpts from "Slovak
   Family Traditions," which I recall having read from a previous post of
   yours, as well as the remarkable Grisak autobiography.

   My own research in this area has led me to conclude that there was a
fairly
   common culture among the peasants throughout Central Europe regardless of
   their particular ethnicity or language.  Nearly everything in your
excerpts
   and in the Grisak work is described in Fél and Hofer's "Proper Peasants,"
   though they go into much greater detail and in the case of the excerpts
are
   far more readable.  Their book, based on an intensive study of a single
   village on the Hungarian Plain, is widely available and fairly
inexpensive.
   Descriptions I have read of the culture of Germans who migrated to Hungary
   also do not appear to differ materially.  I suspect the same is true of
the
   peasant culture of surrounding regions.  One would expect some variations
   from area to area, and even village to village, but in my view the
   commonality of the customs and traditions is far more striking.  Just one
   example is the custom of men sleeping in the stables, while the women and
   children slept in the house.  Others include the courtship rituals of
young
   men, the violence that often occurred when a young man courted a girl out
of
   his community, the tradition of young men drinking and dancing till the
wee
   hours until they married and settled down, and the pathetic position of
   daughters-in-law in a household.

   I am looking forward to Vladimir's contributions and would be very
   interested in learning if he agrees.

   Janet





   To unsubscribe from this group, go to
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SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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One of the pictures I have of my grandmother, she is wearing a
babushka on her head untied inside of our house. From what my
parents (now deceased) said, she always wore her babushka? Does
anyone know the significance of women wearing babushka's (head
scarfs)?

Hope I spelled babushka right.


Searching grandparents, Peter Szabo (Vajan,Austria-Hungary) and Anna
Mislai (Battyan, Austria-Hungary).

Nase rodina (Our Family) is published quarterly by the Czechoslovak
Genealogical Society International (CGSI) PO Box 16225, St. Paul, MN
55116-0225. Nase rodina promotes genealogy of the ethnic groups that
comprise Czechoslovakia as it was formed in 1918.
http://www.cgsi.org/research.asp?i=7

Dear Bill,
here http://www.cgsi.org/
I thought, everybody knows that :-)
Join!
Best regards,
Vladimir
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Bill Tarkulich
   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 12:45 PM
   Subject: RE: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions


   Hi Vladimir,
   How and where can we go about obtaining the publications of " Nase Rodina"?
   It sounds like a good read.
   Regards,
   Bill


   -----Original Message-----
   From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
   Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 2:44 AM
   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: Re: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions



   Dear Janet,
   I agree with everything, since these are more or less all facts. This is
   what one could count into Slavic culture. Since were are all Slavs, we have
   many things in common. Slavs in different cuntries ( in Europe)were
   naturally under influence of their master nations or neighbors, so you can
   find this in variations too. Villages or areas, which were awau from trade
   lines, were less exposed to such influences and kept their old customs
   longer. Many of the customs go far back into the pagan era, where there was
   no Christianity. Every village was and to a large extent still is a closed
   community, often with it's own, unwritten rules. A foreigner, or anyone
   "different' will have a hard time in it, unless he adopts and subdues. The
   most feared weapon is gossip. It can kill people softly, or drive them mad.
   Another weapon is envy.It destroys much of good or new. The book Bill is
   refering to I bought already a year or two ago. It describes wery much , but
   I am not very happy with the language. It is too dry, without any spirit or
   soul. It is evident, that it was written by people, who were educated in the
   past communist regime, where a person was only a statistical item. The
   writers do not care much about the reader. I would have writte it
   differently. I will touch this subject later in my article for Nase Rodina.
   Regards, Vladimir


     ----- Original Message -----
     From: Janet Kozlay
     To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
     Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 4:07 AM
     Subject: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions


     Bill, I would like to thank you for posting your excerpts from "Slovak
     Family Traditions," which I recall having read from a previous post of
     yours, as well as the remarkable Grisak autobiography.

     My own research in this area has led me to conclude that there was a
   fairly
     common culture among the peasants throughout Central Europe regardless of
     their particular ethnicity or language.  Nearly everything in your
   excerpts
     and in the Grisak work is described in Fél and Hofer's "Proper Peasants,"
     though they go into much greater detail and in the case of the excerpts
   are
     far more readable.  Their book, based on an intensive study of a single
     village on the Hungarian Plain, is widely available and fairly
   inexpensive.
     Descriptions I have read of the culture of Germans who migrated to Hungary
     also do not appear to differ materially.  I suspect the same is true of
   the
     peasant culture of surrounding regions.  One would expect some variations
     from area to area, and even village to village, but in my view the
     commonality of the customs and traditions is far more striking.  Just one
     example is the custom of men sleeping in the stables, while the women and
     children slept in the house.  Others include the courtship rituals of
   young
     men, the violence that often occurred when a young man courted a girl out
   of
     his community, the tradition of young men drinking and dancing till the
   wee
     hours until they married and settled down, and the pathetic position of
     daughters-in-law in a household.

     I am looking forward to Vladimir's contributions and would be very
     interested in learning if he agrees.

     Janet





     To unsubscribe from this group, go to
   http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS  -or- send  blank email to
   SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com


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                 ADVERTISEMENT





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Everyone.....I have read this post with great interest.  And would like to
ask a question about ethnic/religious traditions or customs.  My background is
Moravian, Austrian-Hungarian, and German.  I am catholic and as a child when we
went to church as a family, the men all sat on the right hand side and the women
and children sat on the left hand side.  This would be in the 1940's here in
Texas.  It then changed throughtout the years but I am not sure of the change
date. Of course, my parents and my grandparents and aunts and uncles all spoke
Moravian as did we children in those days.  My grandmother would always say "Ti
se Moravian" (no accent marks as they mess up the email sometimes) when someone
would say we were czech or bohemian.  She was very firm about this. To her, I
suppose, being called something other than Moravian was not proper.  We were all
raised to be proud of our Moravian heritage.  Of course, we all learned english
also and by the time we went to school,
  moravian was ignored by all of us children and the older members of the family
only spoke in moravian to each other. We even prayed in Moravian in our country
church.  We actually switched between latin and Moravian.  The Our Father and
Hail Mary was always in Moravian.

This also was a country parish which was rather small.  I can still remember the
church with its white beadboard walls.......its beautiful gothic shaped stained
windows which opened to the outside (no AC in those days).  Sometimes, birds
flew across the altar and we even saw mice scattering across the wooden floor at
times.  The statues were magnificent and they are the very same ones that are in
the catholic church (polish community) where I attend today.

We had lent.........we had ember days.........so much that is no longer.  Of
course, Lent is still in the church but the ember days are gone.  The mass was
in latin as were our prayer books.  Also,,,,,when my older sister was married
(early 1950's) the priest came to the house in the early morning.  My mother
draped a white sheet on the walls in one corner of our small living room and my
sister, in her wedding dress, and her husband to be, kneeled there, surrounded
by the parents, the priest in the corner facing them.  He gave a blessing to the
couple and to the parents.  Then, he went back to the church where we all
followed later on.  I am supposing that this also came over from the old
country.  I have never seen this blessing enacted since that day.  It, too, has
disappeared.

So, this post brought back a lot of memories for me.  But I do hope someone can
comment on the way we sat in the church.  I am wondering if this custom did not
come over from the old homeland when my family arrived here in the USA.  Perhaps
the blessing also did.

Many thanks to all you members who make this list so interesting.

Cheers, Aloysia

Vladimir Bohinc <konekta@...> wrote:
Dear Bill,
here http://www.cgsi.org/
I thought, everybody knows that :-)
Join!
Best regards,
Vladimir
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Bill Tarkulich
   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 12:45 PM
   Subject: RE: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions


   Hi Vladimir,
   How and where can we go about obtaining the publications of " Nase Rodina"?
   It sounds like a good read.
   Regards,
   Bill


   -----Original Message-----
   From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
   Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 2:44 AM
   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: Re: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions



   Dear Janet,
   I agree with everything, since these are more or less all facts. This is
   what one could count into Slavic culture. Since were are all Slavs, we have
   many things in common. Slavs in different cuntries ( in Europe)were
   naturally under influence of their master nations or neighbors, so you can
   find this in variations too. Villages or areas, which were awau from trade
   lines, were less exposed to such influences and kept their old customs
   longer. Many of the customs go far back into the pagan era, where there was
   no Christianity. Every village was and to a large extent still is a closed
   community, often with it's own, unwritten rules. A foreigner, or anyone
   "different' will have a hard time in it, unless he adopts and subdues. The
   most feared weapon is gossip. It can kill people softly, or drive them mad.
   Another weapon is envy.It destroys much of good or new. The book Bill is
   refering to I bought already a year or two ago. It describes wery much , but
   I am not very happy with the language. It is too dry, without any spirit or
   soul. It is evident, that it was written by people, who were educated in the
   past communist regime, where a person was only a statistical item. The
   writers do not care much about the reader. I would have writte it
   differently. I will touch this subject later in my article for Nase Rodina.
   Regards, Vladimir


     ----- Original Message -----
     From: Janet Kozlay
     To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
     Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 4:07 AM
     Subject: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions


     Bill, I would like to thank you for posting your excerpts from "Slovak
     Family Traditions," which I recall having read from a previous post of
     yours, as well as the remarkable Grisak autobiography.

     My own research in this area has led me to conclude that there was a
   fairly
     common culture among the peasants throughout Central Europe regardless of
     their particular ethnicity or language.  Nearly everything in your
   excerpts
     and in the Grisak work is described in Fél and Hofer's "Proper Peasants,"
     though they go into much greater detail and in the case of the excerpts
   are
     far more readable.  Their book, based on an intensive study of a single
     village on the Hungarian Plain, is widely available and fairly
   inexpensive.
     Descriptions I have read of the culture of Germans who migrated to Hungary
     also do not appear to differ materially.  I suspect the same is true of
   the
     peasant culture of surrounding regions.  One would expect some variations
     from area to area, and even village to village, but in my view the
     commonality of the customs and traditions is far more striking.  Just one
     example is the custom of men sleeping in the stables, while the women and
     children slept in the house.  Others include the courtship rituals of
   young
     men, the violence that often occurred when a young man courted a girl out
   of
     his community, the tradition of young men drinking and dancing till the
   wee
     hours until they married and settled down, and the pathetic position of
     daughters-in-law in a household.

     I am looking forward to Vladimir's contributions and would be very
     interested in learning if he agrees.

     Janet





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I well remember the days when the men and women sat on opposite sides of
the church.  The women (and children) sat on the left, facing the Blessed
Virgin's statue , and the men sat on the right, facing St. Joseph's
statue.  This was the custom, not only in the Slovak parish, but in the
"Irish" parish where our family attended mass, when it was not convenient
to travel to the Slovak parish (a seven mile trip).  I also remember that
everyone, men and women, dressed in their "Sunday best" when they went to
mass.  Not only did the men wear a suit, white shirt and tie, but they
also wore hats.  I don't know when the custom of sitting on opposite
sides of the church was abandoned, but, as I recall, it was a gradual
change.

Bill Brna

On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 09:32:18 -0700 (PDT) Jan Ammann
<janammann@...> writes:
>
> Hello Everyone.....I have read this post with great interest.  And
> would like to ask a question about ethnic/religious traditions or
> customs.  My background is Moravian, Austrian-Hungarian, and German.
>  I am catholic and as a child when we went to church as a family,
> the men all sat on the right hand side and the women and children
> sat on the left hand side.  This would be in the 1940's here in
> Texas.  It then changed throughtout the years but I am not sure of
> the change date. Of course, my parents and my grandparents and aunts
> and uncles all spoke Moravian as did we children in those days.  My
> grandmother would always say "Ti se Moravian" (no accent marks as
> they mess up the email sometimes) when someone would say we were
> czech or bohemian.  She was very firm about this. To her, I suppose,
> being called something other than Moravian was not proper.  We were
> all raised to be proud of our Moravian heritage.  Of course, we all
> learned english also and by the time we went to school,
>  moravian was ignored by all of us children and the older members of
> the family only spoke in moravian to each other. We even prayed in
> Moravian in our country church.  We actually switched between latin
> and Moravian.  The Our Father and Hail Mary was always in Moravian.
>
> This also was a country parish which was rather small.  I can still
> remember the church with its white beadboard walls.......its
> beautiful gothic shaped stained windows which opened to the outside
> (no AC in those days).  Sometimes, birds flew across the altar and
> we even saw mice scattering across the wooden floor at times.  The
> statues were magnificent and they are the very same ones that are in
> the catholic church (polish community) where I attend today.
>
> We had lent.........we had ember days.........so much that is no
> longer.  Of course, Lent is still in the church but the ember days
> are gone.  The mass was in latin as were our prayer books.
> Also,,,,,when my older sister was married (early 1950's) the priest
> came to the house in the early morning.  My mother draped a white
> sheet on the walls in one corner of our small living room and my
> sister, in her wedding dress, and her husband to be, kneeled there,
> surrounded by the parents, the priest in the corner facing them.  He
> gave a blessing to the couple and to the parents.  Then, he went
> back to the church where we all followed later on.  I am supposing
> that this also came over from the old country.  I have never seen
> this blessing enacted since that day.  It, too, has disappeared.
>
> So, this post brought back a lot of memories for me.  But I do hope
> someone can comment on the way we sat in the church.  I am wondering
> if this custom did not come over from the old homeland when my
> family arrived here in the USA.  Perhaps the blessing also did.
>
> Many thanks to all you members who make this list so interesting.
>
> Cheers, Aloysia
>
> Vladimir Bohinc <konekta@...> wrote:
> Dear Bill,
> here http://www.cgsi.org/
> I thought, everybody knows that :-)
> Join!
> Best regards,
> Vladimir
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Bill Tarkulich
>   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 12:45 PM
>   Subject: RE: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions
>
>
>   Hi Vladimir,
>   How and where can we go about obtaining the publications of " Nase
> Rodina"?
>   It sounds like a good read.
>   Regards,
>   Bill
>
>
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
>   Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 2:44 AM
>   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: Re: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions
>
>
>
>   Dear Janet,
>   I agree with everything, since these are more or less all facts.
> This is
>   what one could count into Slavic culture. Since were are all
> Slavs, we have
>   many things in common. Slavs in different cuntries ( in
> Europe)were
>   naturally under influence of their master nations or neighbors, so
> you can
>   find this in variations too. Villages or areas, which were awau
> from trade
>   lines, were less exposed to such influences and kept their old
> customs
>   longer. Many of the customs go far back into the pagan era, where
> there was
>   no Christianity. Every village was and to a large extent still is
> a closed
>   community, often with it's own, unwritten rules. A foreigner, or
> anyone
>   "different' will have a hard time in it, unless he adopts and
> subdues. The
>   most feared weapon is gossip. It can kill people softly, or drive
> them mad.
>   Another weapon is envy.It destroys much of good or new. The book
> Bill is
>   refering to I bought already a year or two ago. It describes wery
> much , but
>   I am not very happy with the language. It is too dry, without any
> spirit or
>   soul. It is evident, that it was written by people, who were
> educated in the
>   past communist regime, where a person was only a statistical item.
> The
>   writers do not care much about the reader. I would have writte it
>   differently. I will touch this subject later in my article for
> Nase Rodina.
>   Regards, Vladimir
>
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: Janet Kozlay
>     To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
>     Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 4:07 AM
>     Subject: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions
>
>
>     Bill, I would like to thank you for posting your excerpts from
> "Slovak
>     Family Traditions," which I recall having read from a previous
> post of
>     yours, as well as the remarkable Grisak autobiography.
>
>     My own research in this area has led me to conclude that there
> was a
>   fairly
>     common culture among the peasants throughout Central Europe
> regardless of
>     their particular ethnicity or language.  Nearly everything in
> your
>   excerpts
>     and in the Grisak work is described in Fél and Hofer's "Proper
> Peasants,"
>     though they go into much greater detail and in the case of the
> excerpts
>   are
>     far more readable.  Their book, based on an intensive study of a
> single
>     village on the Hungarian Plain, is widely available and fairly
>   inexpensive.
>     Descriptions I have read of the culture of Germans who migrated
> to Hungary
>     also do not appear to differ materially.  I suspect the same is
> true of
>   the
>     peasant culture of surrounding regions.  One would expect some
> variations
>     from area to area, and even village to village, but in my view
> the
>     commonality of the customs and traditions is far more striking.
> Just one
>     example is the custom of men sleeping in the stables, while the
> women and
>     children slept in the house.  Others include the courtship
> rituals of
>   young
>     men, the violence that often occurred when a young man courted a
> girl out
>   of
>     his community, the tradition of young men drinking and dancing
> till the
>   wee
>     hours until they married and settled down, and the pathetic
> position of
>     daughters-in-law in a household.
>
>     I am looking forward to Vladimir's contributions and would be
> very
>     interested in learning if he agrees.
>
>     Janet
>
>
>
>
>
>     To unsubscribe from this group, go to
>   http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS  -or- send  blank
> email to
>   SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
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>
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That the woman is married.
b

-----Original Message-----
From: betytowner [mailto:betytowner@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 9:43 AM
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [S-R] Why did women wear "Babushka's"




One of the pictures I have of my grandmother, she is wearing a
babushka on her head untied inside of our house. From what my
parents (now deceased) said, she always wore her babushka? Does
anyone know the significance of women wearing babushka's (head
scarfs)?

Hope I spelled babushka right.


Searching grandparents, Peter Szabo (Vajan,Austria-Hungary) and Anna
Mislai (Battyan, Austria-Hungary).






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Yahoo! Groups Links

I just recently joined the CGSI and their newsletter is wonderful.
I received the June 2004 issue with my member handbook and it's all
about Czech's in the Caledonia, Wisconsin area.  I'm from Wisconsin
but currently live in Los Angeles.

The newsletter was also plastered full of mentions of my last name,
Kadlec.

It seems like an excellent group.  I'm really glad I joined.

Kristine Kadlec
http://www.kristinekadlec.com

I found a similar but not identical custom in a description of Ukrainian
weddings, where the blessing was given by the couple's parents:

“My two sisters and I were married in the Ukrainian tradition, in a
Ukrainian Catholic church in Detroit. One of the most poignant traditions is
the blessings of the parents. The young couple, before the marriage ceremony
meet at the bride's home to receive a blessing from the parents. They kneel
before both sets of parents and ask their blessing and permission to marry.
After the permission is given, the couple's wrists are tied by the parents
(one arm each) with an embroidered rushnyk. This is when most everyone
begins to cry...."

I found a similar description of parents' blessings in the morning in Polish
weddings.

A description of Slovak wedding traditions says that on the morning of the
wedding the bride and groom each, in their own homes, ask forgiveness from
their parents for any wrongs they may have done them and ask for their
blessing.  This also seems to have been the case in Rusyn weddings.

I have found no such descriptions of morning blessings, either from a priest
or from the parents, for Hungarian households.

There are many wedding traditions that do seem to cross ethnic lines in
Central European countries, probably the most important of which was the
trading of the bride's wedding wreath for a married woman's head covering.

Janet


-----Original Message-----
From: Jan Ammann [mailto:janammann@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 11:32 AM
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions


Hello Everyone.....I have read this post with great interest.  And would
like to ask a question about ethnic/religious traditions or customs.  My
background is Moravian, Austrian-Hungarian, and German.  I am catholic and
as a child when we went to church as a family, the men all sat on the right
hand side and the women and children sat on the left hand side.  This would
be in the 1940's here in Texas.  It then changed throughtout the years but I
am not sure of the change date. Of course, my parents and my grandparents
and aunts and uncles all spoke Moravian as did we children in those days.
My grandmother would always say "Ti se Moravian" (no accent marks as they
mess up the email sometimes) when someone would say we were czech or
bohemian.  She was very firm about this. To her, I suppose, being called
something other than Moravian was not proper.  We were all raised to be
proud of our Moravian heritage.  Of course, we all learned english also and
by the time we went to school,
  moravian was ignored by all of us children and the older members of the
family only spoke in moravian to each other. We even prayed in Moravian in
our country church.  We actually switched between latin and Moravian.  The
Our Father and Hail Mary was always in Moravian.

This also was a country parish which was rather small.  I can still remember
the church with its white beadboard walls.......its beautiful gothic shaped
stained windows which opened to the outside (no AC in those days).
Sometimes, birds flew across the altar and we even saw mice scattering
across the wooden floor at times.  The statues were magnificent and they are
the very same ones that are in the catholic church (polish community) where
I attend today.

We had lent.........we had ember days.........so much that is no longer.  Of
course, Lent is still in the church but the ember days are gone.  The mass
was in latin as were our prayer books.  Also,,,,,when my older sister was
married (early 1950's) the priest came to the house in the early morning.
My mother draped a white sheet on the walls in one corner of our small
living room and my sister, in her wedding dress, and her husband to be,
kneeled there, surrounded by the parents, the priest in the corner facing
them.  He gave a blessing to the couple and to the parents.  Then, he went
back to the church where we all followed later on.  I am supposing that this
also came over from the old country.  I have never seen this blessing
enacted since that day.  It, too, has disappeared.

So, this post brought back a lot of memories for me.  But I do hope someone
can comment on the way we sat in the church.  I am wondering if this custom
did not come over from the old homeland when my family arrived here in the
USA.  Perhaps the blessing also did.

Many thanks to all you members who make this list so interesting.

Cheers, Aloysia

Vladimir Bohinc <konekta@...> wrote:
Dear Bill,
here http://www.cgsi.org/
I thought, everybody knows that :-)
Join!
Best regards,
Vladimir
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Bill Tarkulich
   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 12:45 PM
   Subject: RE: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions


   Hi Vladimir,
   How and where can we go about obtaining the publications of " Nase
Rodina"?
   It sounds like a good read.
   Regards,
   Bill


   -----Original Message-----
   From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
   Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 2:44 AM
   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: Re: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions



   Dear Janet,
   I agree with everything, since these are more or less all facts. This is
   what one could count into Slavic culture. Since were are all Slavs, we
have
   many things in common. Slavs in different cuntries ( in Europe)were
   naturally under influence of their master nations or neighbors, so you can
   find this in variations too. Villages or areas, which were awau from trade
   lines, were less exposed to such influences and kept their old customs
   longer. Many of the customs go far back into the pagan era, where there
was
   no Christianity. Every village was and to a large extent still is a closed
   community, often with it's own, unwritten rules. A foreigner, or anyone
   "different' will have a hard time in it, unless he adopts and subdues. The
   most feared weapon is gossip. It can kill people softly, or drive them
mad.
   Another weapon is envy.It destroys much of good or new. The book Bill is
   refering to I bought already a year or two ago. It describes wery much ,
but
   I am not very happy with the language. It is too dry, without any spirit
or
   soul. It is evident, that it was written by people, who were educated in
the
   past communist regime, where a person was only a statistical item. The
   writers do not care much about the reader. I would have writte it
   differently. I will touch this subject later in my article for Nase
Rodina.
   Regards, Vladimir


     ----- Original Message -----
     From: Janet Kozlay
     To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
     Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 4:07 AM
     Subject: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions


     Bill, I would like to thank you for posting your excerpts from "Slovak
     Family Traditions," which I recall having read from a previous post of
     yours, as well as the remarkable Grisak autobiography.

     My own research in this area has led me to conclude that there was a
   fairly
     common culture among the peasants throughout Central Europe regardless
of
     their particular ethnicity or language.  Nearly everything in your
   excerpts
     and in the Grisak work is described in Fél and Hofer's "Proper
Peasants,"
     though they go into much greater detail and in the case of the excerpts
   are
     far more readable.  Their book, based on an intensive study of a single
     village on the Hungarian Plain, is widely available and fairly
   inexpensive.
     Descriptions I have read of the culture of Germans who migrated to
Hungary
     also do not appear to differ materially.  I suspect the same is true of
   the
     peasant culture of surrounding regions.  One would expect some
variations
     from area to area, and even village to village, but in my view the
     commonality of the customs and traditions is far more striking.  Just
one
     example is the custom of men sleeping in the stables, while the women
and
     children slept in the house.  Others include the courtship rituals of
   young
     men, the violence that often occurred when a young man courted a girl
out
   of
     his community, the tradition of young men drinking and dancing till the
   wee
     hours until they married and settled down, and the pathetic position of
     daughters-in-law in a household.

     I am looking forward to Vladimir's contributions and would be very
     interested in learning if he agrees.

     Janet





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I remember ember days in the past but cannot recall exactly what they were.
Noreen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello......I do remember part of what happened during the blessing for my sister
and her future husband.  It was for the parents to give permission for their
children to marry.  My sister and her bridegroom kneeled on the floor in front
of the priest.  My parents stood behind my sister and and the priest asked if
they give permission for this couple to wed.  Of course, they said yes.  Then
they asked the same of the bridgrooms parents.  Then there were some prayers.

Of course, my future brother-in-law saw my sister in her wedding dress but I
guess traditions were different back then.

Aloysia

Janet Kozlay <kozlay@...> wrote:
I found a similar but not identical custom in a description of Ukrainian
weddings, where the blessing was given by the couple's parents:

“My two sisters and I were married in the Ukrainian tradition, in a
Ukrainian Catholic church in Detroit. One of the most poignant traditions is
the blessings of the parents. The young couple, before the marriage ceremony
meet at the bride's home to receive a blessing from the parents. They kneel
before both sets of parents and ask their blessing and permission to marry.
After the permission is given, the couple's wrists are tied by the parents
(one arm each) with an embroidered rushnyk. This is when most everyone
begins to cry...."

I found a similar description of parents' blessings in the morning in Polish
weddings.

A description of Slovak wedding traditions says that on the morning of the
wedding the bride and groom each, in their own homes, ask forgiveness from
their parents for any wrongs they may have done them and ask for their
blessing.  This also seems to have been the case in Rusyn weddings.

I have found no such descriptions of morning blessings, either from a priest
or from the parents, for Hungarian households.

There are many wedding traditions that do seem to cross ethnic lines in
Central European countries, probably the most important of which was the
trading of the bride's wedding wreath for a married woman's head covering.

Janet


-----Original Message-----
From: Jan Ammann [mailto:janammann@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 11:32 AM
To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions


Hello Everyone.....I have read this post with great interest.  And would
like to ask a question about ethnic/religious traditions or customs.  My
background is Moravian, Austrian-Hungarian, and German.  I am catholic and
as a child when we went to church as a family, the men all sat on the right
hand side and the women and children sat on the left hand side.  This would
be in the 1940's here in Texas.  It then changed throughtout the years but I
am not sure of the change date. Of course, my parents and my grandparents
and aunts and uncles all spoke Moravian as did we children in those days.
My grandmother would always say "Ti se Moravian" (no accent marks as they
mess up the email sometimes) when someone would say we were czech or
bohemian.  She was very firm about this. To her, I suppose, being called
something other than Moravian was not proper.  We were all raised to be
proud of our Moravian heritage.  Of course, we all learned english also and
by the time we went to school,
moravian was ignored by all of us children and the older members of the
family only spoke in moravian to each other. We even prayed in Moravian in
our country church.  We actually switched between latin and Moravian.  The
Our Father and Hail Mary was always in Moravian.

This also was a country parish which was rather small.  I can still remember
the church with its white beadboard walls.......its beautiful gothic shaped
stained windows which opened to the outside (no AC in those days).
Sometimes, birds flew across the altar and we even saw mice scattering
across the wooden floor at times.  The statues were magnificent and they are
the very same ones that are in the catholic church (polish community) where
I attend today.

We had lent.........we had ember days.........so much that is no longer.  Of
course, Lent is still in the church but the ember days are gone.  The mass
was in latin as were our prayer books.  Also,,,,,when my older sister was
married (early 1950's) the priest came to the house in the early morning.
My mother draped a white sheet on the walls in one corner of our small
living room and my sister, in her wedding dress, and her husband to be,
kneeled there, surrounded by the parents, the priest in the corner facing
them.  He gave a blessing to the couple and to the parents.  Then, he went
back to the church where we all followed later on.  I am supposing that this
also came over from the old country.  I have never seen this blessing
enacted since that day.  It, too, has disappeared.

So, this post brought back a lot of memories for me.  But I do hope someone
can comment on the way we sat in the church.  I am wondering if this custom
did not come over from the old homeland when my family arrived here in the
USA.  Perhaps the blessing also did.

Many thanks to all you members who make this list so interesting.

Cheers, Aloysia

Vladimir Bohinc <konekta@...> wrote:
Dear Bill,
here http://www.cgsi.org/
I thought, everybody knows that :-)
Join!
Best regards,
Vladimir
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Bill Tarkulich
   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 12:45 PM
   Subject: RE: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions


   Hi Vladimir,
   How and where can we go about obtaining the publications of " Nase
Rodina"?
   It sounds like a good read.
   Regards,
   Bill


   -----Original Message-----
   From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
   Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 2:44 AM
   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: Re: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions



   Dear Janet,
   I agree with everything, since these are more or less all facts. This is
   what one could count into Slavic culture. Since were are all Slavs, we
have
   many things in common. Slavs in different cuntries ( in Europe)were
   naturally under influence of their master nations or neighbors, so you can
   find this in variations too. Villages or areas, which were awau from trade
   lines, were less exposed to such influences and kept their old customs
   longer. Many of the customs go far back into the pagan era, where there
was
   no Christianity. Every village was and to a large extent still is a closed
   community, often with it's own, unwritten rules. A foreigner, or anyone
   "different' will have a hard time in it, unless he adopts and subdues. The
   most feared weapon is gossip. It can kill people softly, or drive them
mad.
   Another weapon is envy.It destroys much of good or new. The book Bill is
   refering to I bought already a year or two ago. It describes wery much ,
but
   I am not very happy with the language. It is too dry, without any spirit
or
   soul. It is evident, that it was written by people, who were educated in
the
   past communist regime, where a person was only a statistical item. The
   writers do not care much about the reader. I would have writte it
   differently. I will touch this subject later in my article for Nase
Rodina.
   Regards, Vladimir


     ----- Original Message -----
     From: Janet Kozlay
     To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
     Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 4:07 AM
     Subject: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions


     Bill, I would like to thank you for posting your excerpts from "Slovak
     Family Traditions," which I recall having read from a previous post of
     yours, as well as the remarkable Grisak autobiography.

     My own research in this area has led me to conclude that there was a
   fairly
     common culture among the peasants throughout Central Europe regardless
of
     their particular ethnicity or language.  Nearly everything in your
   excerpts
     and in the Grisak work is described in Fél and Hofer's "Proper
Peasants,"
     though they go into much greater detail and in the case of the excerpts
   are
     far more readable.  Their book, based on an intensive study of a single
     village on the Hungarian Plain, is widely available and fairly
   inexpensive.
     Descriptions I have read of the culture of Germans who migrated to
Hungary
     also do not appear to differ materially.  I suspect the same is true of
   the
     peasant culture of surrounding regions.  One would expect some
variations
     from area to area, and even village to village, but in my view the
     commonality of the customs and traditions is far more striking.  Just
one
     example is the custom of men sleeping in the stables, while the women
and
     children slept in the house.  Others include the courtship rituals of
   young
     men, the violence that often occurred when a young man courted a girl
out
   of
     his community, the tradition of young men drinking and dancing till the
   wee
     hours until they married and settled down, and the pathetic position of
     daughters-in-law in a household.

     I am looking forward to Vladimir's contributions and would be very
     interested in learning if he agrees.

     Janet





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Mr. Brna........Thank you for remembering what I remember.  And, like you,
I don't remember exactly when it changed.  Yes, we were always dressed up. 
Daddy in a suit with all the accessories and a hat.  My mother and my two
sisters were equally done up in fou-fou-frilly type dresses with hats and
gloves.  Yes, gloves.  The hats were usually the "bowler" type for us children
with a ribbon hanging down the back part of the hat and touching our shoulders. 
Mother, however, had a more sedate hat....usually that sat on the top of her
head and sometimes they came down on the sides.  They were made of straw or
velvet or some other fancy fabric........however, they all had a net that could
be pulled down over the face.

Yes, it was a fine tradition.  And sometimes I wish we could ressurect it, at
least for one Sunday.  Our shoes were called Baby Janes with a strap across the
top and we had one in black patent leather and one in white patent leather.  We
shined them with vaseline.  I smile when I think of it now.  My mother used to
braid my hair so tight that I believe that is why I have big eyes.  I looked
perpetually startled.  And if I dared to whimper as she braided she would just
pull those braids tighter.  Sometimes, we even polished our nails with polish. 
Nothing bright or glaring........a soft rose or pink.  However, because my
sister was the oldest, she always got away with fire engine red nails and toes.

On Saturday night, mother would line up three enamel bowls of water on a bench
either on the back porch (summertime) or in the kitchen when it was winter.  The
first bowl was where we leaned over and washed our hair.  The second bowl was
water to rinse the soap off.  And the third bowl was also water to rinse but
with a touch of vinegar added.  I think that probably stripped off the last of
the soap suds and our hair literally squeaked. Sometimes all three of us used
the same bowls of water.

And when bathing (in a #3 washtub) we also sometimes bathed after each other. 
Water had to be pumped and carried to the house and heated on the kerosene stove
so we had to make do.  We also did everything in birth order. My elder sister
went first, then me, and finally, our baby sister.  I often laugh and tease her
because she has an olive skin whereas my older sister and I have a fair skin.  I
tell her it was because she had to end up using "the somewhat dirty water" and
that is why she has the darker skin.  Also, the darkest hair.

I am sure this must sound strange to someone reading this who did not grow up in
this type of environment but it was a wonderful way of life.  The forties were
war years and it was hard to make a living as farmers which our family was. As I
grow older, I think of it more often and some of these lists do bring these
memories back.

I ask forgiveness of list members who may not consider this proper on a
genealogy list, however, it was a family custom......how we lived.......what we
did........and, of course, family is genealogy.  So the circle becomes complete.

Thank you for giving me this chance to reminisce.

Aloysia

William F Brna <wfbrna@...> wrote:
I well remember the days when the men and women sat on opposite sides of
the church.  The women (and children) sat on the left, facing the Blessed
Virgin's statue , and the men sat on the right, facing St. Joseph's
statue.  This was the custom, not only in the Slovak parish, but in the
"Irish" parish where our family attended mass, when it was not convenient
to travel to the Slovak parish (a seven mile trip).  I also remember that
everyone, men and women, dressed in their "Sunday best" when they went to
mass.  Not only did the men wear a suit, white shirt and tie, but they
also wore hats.  I don't know when the custom of sitting on opposite
sides of the church was abandoned, but, as I recall, it was a gradual
change.

Bill Brna

On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 09:32:18 -0700 (PDT) Jan Ammann
<janammann@...> writes:
>
> Hello Everyone.....I have read this post with great interest.  And
> would like to ask a question about ethnic/religious traditions or
> customs.  My background is Moravian, Austrian-Hungarian, and German.
>  I am catholic and as a child when we went to church as a family,
> the men all sat on the right hand side and the women and children
> sat on the left hand side.  This would be in the 1940's here in
> Texas.  It then changed throughtout the years but I am not sure of
> the change date. Of course, my parents and my grandparents and aunts
> and uncles all spoke Moravian as did we children in those days.  My
> grandmother would always say "Ti se Moravian" (no accent marks as
> they mess up the email sometimes) when someone would say we were
> czech or bohemian.  She was very firm about this. To her, I suppose,
> being called something other than Moravian was not proper.  We were
> all raised to be proud of our Moravian heritage.  Of course, we all
> learned english also and by the time we went to school,
>  moravian was ignored by all of us children and the older members of
> the family only spoke in moravian to each other. We even prayed in
> Moravian in our country church.  We actually switched between latin
> and Moravian.  The Our Father and Hail Mary was always in Moravian.
>
> This also was a country parish which was rather small.  I can still
> remember the church with its white beadboard walls.......its
> beautiful gothic shaped stained windows which opened to the outside
> (no AC in those days).  Sometimes, birds flew across the altar and
> we even saw mice scattering across the wooden floor at times.  The
> statues were magnificent and they are the very same ones that are in
> the catholic church (polish community) where I attend today.
>
> We had lent.........we had ember days.........so much that is no
> longer.  Of course, Lent is still in the church but the ember days
> are gone.  The mass was in latin as were our prayer books.
> Also,,,,,when my older sister was married (early 1950's) the priest
> came to the house in the early morning.  My mother draped a white
> sheet on the walls in one corner of our small living room and my
> sister, in her wedding dress, and her husband to be, kneeled there,
> surrounded by the parents, the priest in the corner facing them.  He
> gave a blessing to the couple and to the parents.  Then, he went
> back to the church where we all followed later on.  I am supposing
> that this also came over from the old country.  I have never seen
> this blessing enacted since that day.  It, too, has disappeared.
>
> So, this post brought back a lot of memories for me.  But I do hope
> someone can comment on the way we sat in the church.  I am wondering
> if this custom did not come over from the old homeland when my
> family arrived here in the USA.  Perhaps the blessing also did.
>
> Many thanks to all you members who make this list so interesting.
>
> Cheers, Aloysia
>
> Vladimir Bohinc <konekta@...> wrote:
> Dear Bill,
> here http://www.cgsi.org/
> I thought, everybody knows that :-)
> Join!
> Best regards,
> Vladimir
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Bill Tarkulich
>   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 12:45 PM
>   Subject: RE: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions
>
>
>   Hi Vladimir,
>   How and where can we go about obtaining the publications of " Nase
> Rodina"?
>   It sounds like a good read.
>   Regards,
>   Bill
>
>
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: Vladimir Bohinc [mailto:konekta@...]
>   Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 2:44 AM
>   To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: Re: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions
>
>
>
>   Dear Janet,
>   I agree with everything, since these are more or less all facts.
> This is
>   what one could count into Slavic culture. Since were are all
> Slavs, we have
>   many things in common. Slavs in different cuntries ( in
> Europe)were
>   naturally under influence of their master nations or neighbors, so
> you can
>   find this in variations too. Villages or areas, which were awau
> from trade
>   lines, were less exposed to such influences and kept their old
> customs
>   longer. Many of the customs go far back into the pagan era, where
> there was
>   no Christianity. Every village was and to a large extent still is
> a closed
>   community, often with it's own, unwritten rules. A foreigner, or
> anyone
>   "different' will have a hard time in it, unless he adopts and
> subdues. The
>   most feared weapon is gossip. It can kill people softly, or drive
> them mad.
>   Another weapon is envy.It destroys much of good or new. The book
> Bill is
>   refering to I bought already a year or two ago. It describes wery
> much , but
>   I am not very happy with the language. It is too dry, without any
> spirit or
>   soul. It is evident, that it was written by people, who were
> educated in the
>   past communist regime, where a person was only a statistical item.
> The
>   writers do not care much about the reader. I would have writte it
>   differently. I will touch this subject later in my article for
> Nase Rodina.
>   Regards, Vladimir
>
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: Janet Kozlay
>     To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
>     Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 4:07 AM
>     Subject: [S-R] Slovak Family Traditions
>
>
>     Bill, I would like to thank you for posting your excerpts from
> "Slovak
>     Family Traditions," which I recall having read from a previous
> post of
>     yours, as well as the remarkable Grisak autobiography.
>
>     My own research in this area has led me to conclude that there
> was a
>   fairly
>     common culture among the peasants throughout Central Europe
> regardless of
>     their particular ethnicity or language.  Nearly everything in
> your
>   excerpts
>     and in the Grisak work is described in Fél and Hofer's "Proper
> Peasants,"
>     though they go into much greater detail and in the case of the
> excerpts
>   are
>     far more readable.  Their book, based on an intensive study of a
> single
>     village on the Hungarian Plain, is widely available and fairly
>   inexpensive.
>     Descriptions I have read of the culture of Germans who migrated
> to Hungary
>     also do not appear to differ materially.  I suspect the same is
> true of
>   the
>     peasant culture of surrounding regions.  One would expect some
> variations
>     from area to area, and even village to village, but in my view
> the
>     commonality of the customs and traditions is far more striking.
> Just one
>     example is the custom of men sleeping in the stables, while the
> women and
>     children slept in the house.  Others include the courtship
> rituals of
>   young
>     men, the violence that often occurred when a young man courted a
> girl out
>   of
>     his community, the tradition of young men drinking and dancing
> till the
>   wee
>     hours until they married and settled down, and the pathetic
> position of
>     daughters-in-law in a household.
>
>     I am looking forward to Vladimir's contributions and would be
> very
>     interested in learning if he agrees.
>
>     Janet
>
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear S-R listers,
If you live in the San Francisco Bay area or are planning a visit, the Santa
Clara City Library (on Homestead Road) has all or almost all of the past
issues of Nase Rodina and Rocenka in the Genealogy Room.
Mike in San Jose, CA

Aloysia,
Thank you for your story.  I do not think it was inappropriate for this list.
  i enjoyed it and am passing it on to my aunt and daughter.  I remember one
of my aunts, born in 1904, telling me that when she got all dressed up to go
out dancing, they were so poor that she used a tiny bit of shoe polish for
curling her eyelashes.  i never forgot that.
Noreen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Regarding the segregation of men and women, I can speak only for the
East of Slovakia, but I'm fairly confident the following applies generally.

For the most part,  100 years ago in small villages, men and women
separately socialized ("Slovak Family Traditions").  I observed this
social segregation continued in America as well.  They were hardly ever
seen together as a "couple", as we do today.  This extended to the
church.  If you look at the architecture of Greek Catholic churches
before 1945, it consisted of three spaces: the Sacristry/altar, Nave and
Babinec. The nave was located centrally and was where the men sat.  The
"Babinec" or "babynets" was also called the "women's room", located
farthest from the altar.

I suspect that this tradition was modified in America since most
churches consisted of principally two sections, the nave (for the
congregants) and the altar (for the sacrament.)  The "babinec" was
generally relegated to the role of a vestibule in America.  Since room
separation wasn't logistically possible, dividing into two sections was
the next best thing.

As an aside, the congregants, except for the infirm generally stood
throughout the entire service, which could be as long as 3 hours.

If you attend an *Orthodox* service today (I married a Greek *Orthodox*
{not to be confused with Greek Catholic} and attend this church), you
will find the majority of people still "dress up."  Men wear
conservative suits and women wear modest dresses.

Bill

I was in Poland in 1980 in a small village church where the sexes were
still segregated:  the women were on the left, men on the right.
Luckily when I came in I picked up on it and sat on the right side!

Joe

I made a batch-o-this yesterday -- my neighbor
actually asked me what's cookin . . . smelled so
delicious -- used a combo of Honey Crisp and Empire
apples -- both are tart-crisp-juicy -- so figured
they'd hold up to one hour of simmering.  Since the
recipe was EXACTLY 6 quarts, I didn't have any left
over to try -- although the pickle juice was amazing.
Again thanks for the recipe.

Does anyone have any tricks/hints/clues as to how to
get a Ball/Kerr jar open once yer ready to sample your
"Beckey Homecky" skills?  Read a ton about home
canning, but so far, nothing about what tool to use to
open the lids -- I'm guessing since you cannot reuse
them, maybe an old fashioned pointy can opener might
work, but if anyone has a better trick, I'd appreciate
that.

Caye



--- Bratgirl54@... wrote:

> Here's a recipe my grandmother used a few times.
> Though we are  Slovak, I'm
> not sure if the recipe is.  Enjoy!
>
>
>
> Green Tomato and Apple  Pickle
> Ingredients:
> 1-1/2 gallon green tomatoes,  chopped
> 1/3 cup salt
> 1 large onion
> 2 quart chopped apples
> 1  bunch celery, chopped
> 2 teaspoon mustard seed
> 1 teaspoon  cinnamon
> 1 teaspoon cloves
> 1 teaspoon allspice
> 2 pound sugar
> 1  quart vinegar
>
> Instructions:
> Sprinkle the salt over the  chopped tomatoes and let
> stand overnight. In the
> morning, drain and add  chopped onion, celery and
> apples. Mix spices with the
> sugar and add  vinegar. Add liquid to pickle mixture
> and simmer slowly for 1
> hour. Pack  into hot jars and  seal.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>




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