I recently went to a class taught by Thomas Handwerker about Baba Yaga.  That
sparked a discussion about vodka.  Since he is also a brewer, I asked him if he
knew about pepper vodka in period?  I have read about pepper vodka in spy
novels, nothing historical.  He had never heard of pepper vodka at all but he
was interested.

A quick search online revealed that pepper vodka is called petrovka or petrivka
and the several dozen online sources (which all seem to be cut and pasted from a
single wikipedia article) say it is Ukrainian, not Russian.  It is also unclear
about whether it is black pepper (capiscum nigrum? right? peppercorns worth more
than gold in period) or red pepper and honey or both types that are used.  I
really wanted to find a recipe but the only one I found was Alton Brown's recipe
that uses black pepper - hard to drink.  Best for cooking spicy foods.

The kind of red pepper that paprika is made from might have been used.  I will
do a more extensive search later.

Any thoughts on this?


-Lady Kalara Zrinyi.

Generally, I've heard, you soak /simmer the stems/leaves in warm
water, or soak and boil the roots, to get a soapy solution.
It's used by textile conservators, among others.  However, I'm not
sure about using it on babies; some books say it can be toxic when
taken internally, so you might want to research that.

On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 4:52 PM, McIsaac & Capnerhurst
<cageytlc@...> wrote:
> I have a newborn so naturally I was up late watching infomercials.  One of
> them was Wen, the shampoo/conditioner with no bubble additive.  Checking out
> the ingredients http://www.wenhaircare.com/ingredients_pop.php , it's pretty
> much a cleanser (Cetyl Alcohol, Cetearyl Alcohol), and the same glycerine,
> herbal extracts, and oils that we all use in potions, lotions, and creams.
>
> So.  I have soapwort growing in my garden.  My question is how was soapwort
> used in period as a shampoo?  I know I've heard references to it.  Was it
> infusion in oil or water?  Do I have to distil it using my alembic?  (Just
> 'cause I can... heh.)  Could one in theory create a similar modern product
> using soapwort as the cleanser, with the conditioners added?  I have very
> long hair and really hate paying for shampoo and conditioner when I have all
> these ingredients at home.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions?
>
> Treasach
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Amy Provost

To: SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 3:05 PM

Subject: Re: [SCA-Herbalist] Soapwort shampoo

You would boil the roots down as a decoction.  I'm not sure off the top of my head about its use as a shampoo.  It was definitely used as a laundry cleaner (think bouncing bet and scrubbing action).
You must understand that you will NOT get the same sudsing action that you're used to by using this plant.

What I use is a decocted plant (perhaps chamomile, sage, calendula, peppermint, burdock root, etc) and mix 3 to 1 with liquid castile soap.  Still doesn't give you the same amount of suds, but definitely better than what you would get from soapwort.  This is also more liquid that what you are used to in a commercial product, but at least you know what's in it.

Distilling?  Damn, never thought of that.  I'm not sure.  If you experiment, let us know!
You definitely would not want to extract.  Saponins are water soluble.

Ameline

On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 4:52 PM, McIsaac & Capnerhurst <cageytlc@telus.net> wrote:

I have a newborn so naturally I was up late watching infomercials.  One of them was Wen, the shampoo/conditioner with no bubble additive.  Checking out the ingredients http://www.wenhaircare.com/ingredients_pop.php , it's pretty much a cleanser (Cetyl Alcohol, Cetearyl Alcohol), and the same glycerine, herbal extracts, and oils that we all use in potions, lotions, and creams.

 

So.  I have soapwort growing in my garden.  My question is how was soapwort used in period as a shampoo?  I know I've heard references to it.  Was it infusion in oil or water?  Do I have to distil it using my alembic?  (Just 'cause I can... heh.)  Could one in theory create a similar modern product using soapwort as the cleanser, with the conditioners added?  I have very long hair and really hate paying for shampoo and conditioner when I have all these ingredients at home.

 

Does anyone have any suggestions?

 

Treasach

--
www.crookedwall.org
www.bthumbstudios.com

I've never seen any reference to pepper vodka in all my cordial research but you
might want to try The Domostroi.  At the very least it's a starting point for
period slavic cooking.  There's also Food in Russian History and Culture by
Glants and Toomre which isn't a primary source, but I've heard it's a very good
reference.

Peyton

I think the closest thing you'd get would be 'water of pepper', made
by distilling pepper with grain beverage. I don't know if they made
such a thing but the Brits at least did make 'waters' of all the
spices they could get their hands on.

From John French's Art of Distillation, 1651:

"OILS ARE MADE OUT OF SEEDS THUS
Take of what seeds you please, bruised, two pounds. Of spring water
take twenty pints, let them be macerated for the space of 24 hours,
and then be distilled in a copper still with a worm or alembic with
its refrigerating. The oil extracted with the water, being separated
with a tunnel, keep the water for a new distillation.
This water after three or four distillations is a very excellent water
and better than is drawn any way out of that vegetable whereof these
are seeds; I mean for virtue though not always for smell.
After the same manner are made oils of spices and aromatical woods."

On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 10:34 AM, Beth Ann Bretter <ladypeyton@...> wrote:
> I've never seen any reference to pepper vodka in all my cordial research but
> you might want to try The Domostroi. At the very least it's a starting point
> for period slavic cooking. There's also Food in Russian History and Culture
> by Glants and Toomre which isn't a primary source, but I've heard it's a
> very good reference.
>
> Peyton
>
>

There are two different kinds of pepper.

Black (and white and green) peppercorns are piper nigrum, and period.  The pink ones are schinus terrbinthifolius.  Long pepper is piper longa.

Bell peppers, paprika, and all the hot chili peppers are types of capiscum, which is new world.  Yes, Paprika, which is often associated with Hungary, is capiscum annuum, originally new world.

From the Wikipedia entry, it looks like "Pepper Vodka" is made with capiscum peppers, and thus not period.

Grain based vodka is period, and it is feasible (as in they had all the ingredients) for there to have been vodka flavored with piper, but I haven't seen any references to that (not saying I've seen all the references there are, though).  It is, of course, a slippery slope to say "well they had this, and they had that..." and, anyway, it wouldn't be the "pepper vodka" you've seen in spy novels.

--- In SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com, R B <Catch_the_dragon@...> wrote:
>
(Snip)

>
> A quick search online revealed that pepper vodka is called petrovka or petrivka and the several dozen online sources (which all seem to be cut and pasted from a single wikipedia article) say it is Ukrainian, not Russian. It is also unclear about whether it is black pepper (capiscum nigrum? right? peppercorns worth more than gold in period) or red pepper and honey or both types that are used. I really wanted to find a recipe but the only one I found was Alton Brown's recipe that uses black pepper - hard to drink. Best for cooking spicy foods.
>
> The kind of red pepper that paprika is made from might have been used. I will do a more extensive search later.
>
> Any thoughts on this?
>
>
> -Lady Kalara Zrinyi.
>

*White* peppercorns are the same fruit as black peppercorns, but they
are allowed to ripen more, and stripped of their black outer coating.

There is a 'pink' peppercorn that comes from another plant, which may
be the one your informant was thinking of:
http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/engl/Schi_ter.html

On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 6:48 PM, Carowyn Silveroak <silveroak@...> wrote:
>
> Greetings,
>
>>Black (and white and green) peppercorns are piper nigrum, and period.  The
>> pink ones are schinus terrbinthifolius.  Long pepper is piper longa.
>
> I'd been told long ago that the white peppercorns were actually some form of
> poison ivy, so I've been avoiding them.  Of course, I didn't research this
> while I was at work....
>
> What's the real scoop?
>
> -Carowyn
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Why not be a nutritionist? Get your degree fast. Click here!
>

Greetings,

> There is a 'pink' peppercorn that comes from another plant, which
> may be the one your informant was thinking of:
> http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/engl/Schi_ter.html

Ahhhhhh, thank you!!  That makes sense - white berries in this area are
often poisonous, therefore the association.  I'll look that up next week
at work, thanks much!

-Carowyn
____________________________________________________________
Criminal Lawyers - Click here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oGdgjeudScgPDQg0dF4VRkcVef9n5\
ST84MVNJK5b4k87K4k/

Greetings,

Is there an herbal remedy / preventative to those darn humongous
millipedes?  I'm tired of being ambushed!  (The big ones with all the big
wiggly legs!  Could be actually classified as centipedes, I'm not getting
close enough to count legs!)

-Carowyn (close encounter in a friend's house last night, scared the
bejeebers outta me!  Hate that!!)
____________________________________________________________
Are you Catholic and single?  Click Here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oGxtIpod12NKODDFPjYAtVWBJD9eK\
9p0nGMKoRDpG4w0u0U/

Greetings, Avacyn!
I was just talking with a friend about sheep-shearing today, and then
I saw your question about extracting lanolin.  I wish I could find you
an actual medieval document, instead of an actual farm woman who
shears sheep!  My father, until this year, always kept several sheep
for the meat, but decided that they were too much for him to deal
with, as he is 84.  He gave his little flock to the woman who shears
them, which she used to do for free because he gave her the wool as
barter.  Back the subject, she boils the cut wool for a few hours in
water that has quite a bit of salt in it, which helps separate out
more grease.  The grease will float to the top and is skimmed off.
That will be pretty dirty.  You put the dirty lanolin in a container
with water and some other oil and shake it really well.  I thought of
using an old crank and paddle butter churn we used to have somewhere.
  The water and oil will pick up all the dirty bits, and the white
lanolin will be in one layer between them.  So that's just how it's
done, which I'm sure is exactly how it's been done since the two sheep
came off the Ark.

A funny anecdote.  About two weeks after we got rid of the sheep,
there was a big thunderstorm at night.  Not long after, I heard the
sound of sheep baa-ing past my window.  In the morning, I found that
the sheep all came home, with a few of Mimi's sheep, and one very
large billy goat.  The storm spooked them and must have made them
homesick.  How they found their way down two miles of two dirt roads
in the pitch dark, I'll never know.  They must have been a sight!

Els von der Birkenweide


--- In SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com, Dianna Haught <avacyn@...> wrote:
>
> Some while back I found a two papers which document the use of
lanolin in period for us.
>
>
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11630744?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PE\
ntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum>Clark
EW.
>
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11630744?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PE\
ntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum>
> No Abstract
>
> A brief history of lanolin.
> Pharm Hist (Lond). 1980 Dec;10(3):5-6. No abstract available.
> PMID: 11630744 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
> 2:
>
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&DbFrom=pubmed&Cmd=Link&LinkN\
ame=pubmed_pubmed&LinkReadableName=Related%20Articles&IdsFromResult=5050892&ordi\
nalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum>\
Related
Articles, Links
>
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/5050892?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEn\
trez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum>Jung
L, Métais MC, Bachoffner P.
>
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/5050892?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEn\
trez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum>
> No Abstract
>
> [Physico-chemical analysis of an ointment dating from the 13th-14th
century]
> Ann Pharm Fr. 1972 Mar;30(3):205-10. French. No abstract available.
> PMID: 5050892 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
>
> Due to a move and a friend given to mishaps, I no longer have copies
of either of these papers nor to a library loan system from which I
can acquire them.  If anyone can get copies of these papers for me
(I'm willing to pay reasonable library fees - not the 40/per paper or
whatever Pubmed charges) and can get a copy of these papers, I'd
really appreciate it.
>
>
> Secondus:  I may be getting my hands on 5 pounds of very greasy
heritage Shetland wool.  I'd love to try extracting some of the
lanolin from the wool in such a way that I can keep the lanolin.
(Part herbalist project/part sheep to shawl project/part SCA 50's
Challenge/part this lady is crazy as loon project).  The only method
that I know of involves weighting the wool down in a pot of very warm
water and skimming the lanolin as it rises to the top.  But I don't
have documentation for this.  Does anyone know of any documented
methods of extracting lanolin from wool or any good sources.
>
> The controversy in medieval usage of lanolin is that it is often
referred to as "sheep's grease" which lead some people to believe that
they were referrring to the fat of the sheep and not the lanolin
because they said that lanolin couldn't be documented as being used in
period.  I've solved to my satisfication that it was, now if I can
only get my hands on these papers once again.  Sigh.
> Thank you.
> Avacyn
> English doesn't just borrow words from other languages.  It follows
them down dark alleys, hits them over the head with old beer bottles
and rummages through their pockets for loose grammar.
>

Thank you.  The only difference I've heard in the process is from a woman who
said to put the wool in a very large "jelly bag" to boil and the dirt is
strained out during the cooking.   I think she meant to make a bag out of that
loose woven muslin used to strain jelly. (?)  I'd love to be able to document
this.

Love your sheep story.  I want so bad to keep a few Angora goats, but my
landlord just won't go for it.  Of course that may have to do with the fact that
my house has very little yard....  Or maybe he just doesn't like goats. 
hehehehe
Avacyn

>Greetings, Avacyn!
>I was just talking with a friend about sheep-shearing today, and then
>I saw your question about extracting lanolin.  I wish I could find you
>an actual medieval document, instead of an actual farm woman who
>shears sheep!  My father, until this year, always kept several sheep
>for the meat, but decided that they were too much for him to deal
>with, as he is 84.  He gave his little flock to the woman who shears
>them, which she used to do for free because he gave her the wool as
>barter.  Back the subject, she boils the cut wool for a few hours in
>water that has quite a bit of salt in it, which helps separate out
>more grease.  The grease will float to the top and is skimmed off.
>That will be pretty dirty.  You put the dirty lanolin in a container
>with water and some other oil and shake it really well.  I thought of
>using an old crank and paddle butter churn we used to have somewhere.
> The water and oil will pick up all the dirty bits, and the white
>lanolin will be in one layer between them.  So that's just how it's
>done, which I'm sure is exactly how it's been done since the two sheep
>came off the Ark.
>
>A funny anecdote.  About two weeks after we got rid of the sheep,
>there was a big thunderstorm at night.  Not long after, I heard the
>sound of sheep baa-ing past my window.  In the morning, I found that
>the sheep all came home, with a few of Mimi's sheep, and one very
>large billy goat.  The storm spooked them and must have made them
>homesick.  How they found their way down two miles of two dirt roads
>in the pitch dark, I'll never know.  They must have been a sight!
>
>Els von der Birkenweide
>
>
>--- In SCA-Herbalist@yahoogroups.com, Dianna Haught <avacyn@...> wrote:
>>
>> Some while back I found a two papers which document the use of
>lanolin in period for us.
>>
>>
><http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11630744?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.P\
Entrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum>Clark
>EW.
>>
><http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11630744?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.P\
Entrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum>
>> No Abstract
>>
>> A brief history of lanolin.
>> Pharm Hist (Lond). 1980 Dec;10(3):5-6. No abstract available.
>> PMID: 11630744 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
>> 2:
>>
><http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&DbFrom=pubmed&Cmd=Link&Link\
Name=pubmed_pubmed&LinkReadableName=Related%20Articles&IdsFromResult=5050892&ord\
inalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum\
>Related
>Articles, Links
>>
><http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/5050892?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PE\
ntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum>Jung
>L, Métais MC, Bachoffner P.
>>
><http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/5050892?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PE\
ntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum>
>> No Abstract
>>
>> [Physico-chemical analysis of an ointment dating from the 13th-14th
>century]
>> Ann Pharm Fr. 1972 Mar;30(3):205-10. French. No abstract available.
>> PMID: 5050892 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
>>
>> Due to a move and a friend given to mishaps, I no longer have copies
>of either of these papers nor to a library loan system from which I
>can acquire them.  If anyone can get copies of these papers for me
>(I'm willing to pay reasonable library fees - not the 40/per paper or
>whatever Pubmed charges) and can get a copy of these papers, I'd
>really appreciate it.
>>
>>
>> Secondus:  I may be getting my hands on 5 pounds of very greasy
>heritage Shetland wool.  I'd love to try extracting some of the
>lanolin from the wool in such a way that I can keep the lanolin.
>(Part herbalist project/part sheep to shawl project/part SCA 50's
>Challenge/part this lady is crazy as loon project).  The only method
>that I know of involves weighting the wool down in a pot of very warm
>water and skimming the lanolin as it rises to the top.  But I don't
>have documentation for this.  Does anyone know of any documented
>methods of extracting lanolin from wool or any good sources.
>>
>> The controversy in medieval usage of lanolin is that it is often
>referred to as "sheep's grease" which lead some people to believe that
>they were referrring to the fat of the sheep and not the lanolin
>because they said that lanolin couldn't be documented as being used in
>period.  I've solved to my satisfication that it was, now if I can
>only get my hands on these papers once again.  Sigh.
>> Thank you.
>> Avacyn
>> English doesn't just borrow words from other languages.  It follows
>them down dark alleys, hits them over the head with old beer bottles
>and rummages through their pockets for loose grammar.
>>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>SCA-Herbalist disclaimer: This list is primarily for discussion of medieval
>and renaissance herbalism and herbalism in the SCA. Please verify any health
>information in other sources and/or with a qualified health professional.
>
>Get medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.MedievalMart.com/
>Sponsored by House Wyvern Hall, BBM, East Kingdom, SCA
>[Email to SCA-Herbalist-unsubscribe@egroups.com to leave this list]Yahoo!
Groups Links
>
>
>
English doesn't just borrow words from other languages.  It follows them down
dark alleys, hits them over the head with old beer bottles and rummages through
their pockets for loose grammar.

....wish I could afford it.....

-Carowyn


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&it
em=350089478088
____________________________________________________________
Need cash? Click to get an emergency loan, bad credit ok
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3mKmy7Iu1vFWRGI72GdtUCCPJcLFCR\
Rxa2KWGejZRiKnn2k8/

Carowyn Silveroak wrote:

> ....wish I could afford it.....
>
> -Carowyn
>
> http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& ssPageName= STRK:MEWAX:
> IT&it
> <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&it>
> em=350089478088

It's evidently gone.  What was it?

--Old Marian

Do period sources ever mention headaches or migraines?  Was pain
something that medieval europeans paid any sort of attention to?  What
did they do to help reduce it?

There's documented evidence of the Romans actually drilling holes through the skull to relieve pressure caused by continual migraines.  I don't recall such evidence being found after that period of such drastic surgery though.  In period, I believe white willow would have been the preferred pain reliever, followed by opiates for severe cases.  Hildegard used a poultice of vinegar and opium.

Ameline

On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 12:18 PM, Laurel <aisinbiya@...> wrote:

Do period sources ever mention headaches or migraines? Was pain

something that medieval europeans paid any sort of attention to? What

did they do to help reduce it?

--
www.crookedwall.org
www.bthumbstudios.com