>
> http://www.jessamynscloset.com/15thgallery.html - all the way at
the
> bottom), it says the lady is Mencia de Mendoza.  If this is *the*
> Mencia de Mendoza, there's no way it could be a 15th century
> portrait; she wasn't born till 1508!

Apparently there were *two* Mencia de Mendozas, and this portrait is
of the first, who was Countess of Haro.  I found more information
about the portrait in

Anderson, Ruth Matilda.  _Hispanic Costume 1480-1530_.  New York:
Hispanic Society of America, 1979.

It's the very last picture in the book, figure 577, in a section on
furs.  It's small and black & white - I for one would never have
noticed lace on the chemise sleeves - but it's dated at 1500.

So looks like lace will be going on my 12th Night garb after all.
1490s...1500...close enough...  ;)

Cheers,
Violante
http://www.spanishpeacock.com/costume_diary.htm

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 14:36:15 -0000, dona_violante
<dona_violante@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > http://www.jessamynscloset.com/15thgallery.html - all the way at
> the
> > bottom), it says the lady is Mencia de Mendoza.  If this is *the*
> > Mencia de Mendoza, there's no way it could be a 15th century
> > portrait; she wasn't born till 1508!
>
> Apparently there were *two* Mencia de Mendozas, and this portrait is
> of the first, who was Countess of Haro.  I found more information
> about the portrait in
<snipped>
> Cheers,
> Violante


We always tend to forget that names were recycled. Except in Jewish
circles where it was forbidden to name a child after a living person
(although I think this was broke often to name children in honor of
Christian (Catholic) patrons) Mencia may very well have been a family
name going from mother to daughter to grandaughter. I've noticed it
more with Spanish and Italian names more than English but the Brits
have ever been a contrary nation. Enjoy your lace.

Bice
--
============================
Soda Club Distibutor
http://snipurl.com/avkn
http://stores.ebay.com/Kristalori
Period Patterns!
http://www.freeiPods.com/?r=12510305
============================

> is there any documentation to support a square necked
> sideless surcoat or a split side seam sideless surcoat (to
> show off the under dress)?
>
> Trish

Um, well, . . .
This runs straight into the good sources problem.


Square-necked sideless surcotes have been depicted, 50-100 years after they were
in fashion, on historic queens & other royal figures--such as Stes. Agnes,
Barbara, Catherine, Dorothy.

Surcotes with split side seams were depicted when, to the best of our current
knowledge, actual sideless surcotes were worn.
They seemed to be really popular with virtues personified, i.e., Iustice
(justice with the 'i' as a consonant).


So, if you are dressing for a masquerade ball or a tableau or some stage
production or other allegorical use, sure, fine.

If you are dressing just like any normal woman on the street, I can't recommend
either detail.

Ann in CT
killjoy again

Ambrose, familiarly known to his family as "Prosy," was the son of
Hans Holbein the Elder and the brother of Hans Holbein the Younger
(logical!  <g>)
Hans the Elder did a group or family portrait--"group" I think, as I
believe it is of just himself and these two sons although his wife
gave him five or six or seven children all told--in which he has his
hand on the younger Hans's, still a young child as we in the twenty-
first century assess maturity, shoulder, as if stating that *this*
son, rather than the elder son, was the one who of all of a talented
family (younger Hans and Prosy worked for dad and uncle in their
studio/goldsmithing) would achieve greatness.  Evidently Hans the
Younger showed extraordinary ability and extraordinary promise, even
from a very young age.
The family fell on hard times financially (apparently dad was a poor
manager) and by 1516 Hans Elder was totally ruined; the family split
up, with the two boys heading off to Basel.  By 1518, we know, Hans
the Younger was married to a young widow, Elsbeth Schmid, and Ambrose
had died a violent death although whether this was by his own hand or
at someone else's has not been satisfactorily determined as far as I
know.

Yseult



--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, Frank and Tracy Thallas
<hardcorps@e...> wrote:
>
>    Ambrosius was Hans' father? brother? something... not as good a
painter, <<<snipped>>>>>
>
> Liadain
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lia de Thornegge <lia.thornegge@g...>

> By Hans Holbein the Younger, this is the detail of the young woman
in
> the painting called "The Darmstadt Madonna'

I was in Zellers (Canadian chain store like K-Mart) last night and found a
really nice faux fur scarf, just the right length to do the side edges of a
sideless.  They were $15 each, but they were about a hand wide, and wouldn't
need altering at all to use, just stitch the lining of the scarf to the dress. 
They had them available in both white and black.  I'm hoping they're still
available after the holidays.  (My kids are at the bankrupt mommy age now so I
won't have any money for me until I get my Xmas stash.)

Gwenhyfar

----- Original Message -----
   From: Catelli, Ann
   To: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 1:46 PM
   Subject: [SCA-Garb] RE: sideless surcoats



   > is there any documentation to support a square necked
   > sideless surcoat or a split side seam sideless surcoat (to
   > show off the under dress)?
   >
   > Trish

   Um, well, . . .
   This runs straight into the good sources problem.


   Square-necked sideless surcotes have been depicted, 50-100 years after they
were in fashion, on historic queens & other royal figures--such as Stes. Agnes,
Barbara, Catherine, Dorothy.

   Surcotes with split side seams were depicted when, to the best of our current
knowledge, actual sideless surcotes were worn.
   They seemed to be really popular with virtues personified, i.e., Iustice
(justice with the 'i' as a consonant).


   So, if you are dressing for a masquerade ball or a tableau or some stage
production or other allegorical use, sure, fine.

   If you are dressing just like any normal woman on the street, I can't
recommend either detail.

   Ann in CT
   killjoy again


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

And in case anyone's even remotely curious, the kneeling woman on the
right hand side of the painting, having only her eyes and nose
visible and the rest of her head covered by linen, is Jacob Meyer's
(he's the patron) first wife.  Meyer wanted her included, but Holbein
had to make his best guess as to her features, there being no prior
image of her for him to work from; this was the artist's viable
compromise.

Yseult


--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Farmer" <sfarmer@s...> wrote:
>
> --- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "brattboy.rm" <brattboy@r...>
wrote:
> >
> > does anyone know where a full copy of this painting can be seen?
>
> <http://www.wga.hu/art/h/holbein/hans_y/1531/1darmst.jpg>
>
> If you go to <http://www.wga.hu>, "Enter" and then in the bottom
frame
> put "Holbein" as the Author and "Darmstadt" as the text, you can see
> some other closeups from this painting.
>
> Jerusha

I have not used these ones before.  I am not certain if they are stainless.  The
specs were not that specific.  I was at a RUM a couple of weeks ago and saw a
lady with one and went hunting for myself.  She was doing happy dances over
hers.  I suspect that I will be doing happy dances too.  Especially when I am
working with my silks, which I am addicted to.

s
     Neat-o!  Have you used these before?  Are they stainless?  Do they discolor
after X amount of
   use/exposure to skin oils, etc?

   Liadain
   intrigued
   and happy-dancing because the Mailman brought mass quantities of Dover
catalogs today


   ---
   Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
   Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
   Version: 6.0.802 / Virus Database: 545 - Release Date: 11/26/2004

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh, that is just TOO cool.  And now I gotta start looking for lace as I'm
looking for early blackwork.  Isn't it great how research never ends, it just
morphs
into something else.........<G>

Liadain
on a new scent!

-----Original Message-----
From: dona_violante <dona_violante@...>
Sent: Dec 1, 2004 7:36 AM
To: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SCA-Garb] Re: Lace (was Re: New Extant Italian Camicia Online)



>
> http://www.jessamynscloset.com/15thgallery.html - all the way at
the
> bottom), it says the lady is Mencia de Mendoza.  If this is *the*
> Mencia de Mendoza, there's no way it could be a 15th century
> portrait; she wasn't born till 1508!

Apparently there were *two* Mencia de Mendozas, and this portrait is
of the first, who was Countess of Haro.  I found more information
about the portrait in

Anderson, Ruth Matilda.  _Hispanic Costume 1480-1530_.  New York:
Hispanic Society of America, 1979.

It's the very last picture in the book, figure 577, in a section on
furs.  It's small and black & white - I for one would never have
noticed lace on the chemise sleeves - but it's dated at 1500.

So looks like lace will be going on my 12th Night garb after all.
1490s...1500...close enough...  ;)

Cheers,
Violante
http://www.spanishpeacock.com/costume_diary.htm

Thanks! That's interesting stuff.  There's a pic from Ambrose in
the Hermitage (would post the addy if I'd written it down) which would
also be of interest to smockers - "Portrait of a Young Man", I think is the
title,
and he has a lovely shirt...

Liadain
thinking that soap operas are NOT a modern invention...<G>

-----Original Message-----
From: borderlands15213 <borderlands15213@...>
Sent: Dec 1, 2004 11:52 AM
To: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SCA-Garb] Re: oops Tudor gown?



Ambrose, familiarly known to his family as "Prosy," was the son of
Hans Holbein the Elder and the brother of Hans Holbein the Younger
(logical!  <g>)
Hans the Elder did a group or family portrait--"group" I think, as I
believe it is of just himself and these two sons although his wife
gave him five or six or seven children all told--in which he has his
hand on the younger Hans's, still a young child as we in the twenty-
first century assess maturity, shoulder, as if stating that *this*
son, rather than the elder son, was the one who of all of a talented
family (younger Hans and Prosy worked for dad and uncle in their
studio/goldsmithing) would achieve greatness.  Evidently Hans the
Younger showed extraordinary ability and extraordinary promise, even
from a very young age.
The family fell on hard times financially (apparently dad was a poor
manager) and by 1516 Hans Elder was totally ruined; the family split
up, with the two boys heading off to Basel.  By 1518, we know, Hans
the Younger was married to a young widow, Elsbeth Schmid, and Ambrose
had died a violent death although whether this was by his own hand or
at someone else's has not been satisfactorily determined as far as I
know.

Yseult

I think that portrait is of a Russian youth/teenager but is titled Portrait
of a young man.

Arian

   -----Original Message-----

     Thanks! That's interesting stuff.  There's a pic from Ambrose in
   the Hermitage (would post the addy if I'd written it down) which would
   also be of interest to smockers - "Portrait of a Young Man", I think is
the title,
   and he has a lovely shirt...

   Liadain
   thinking that soap operas are NOT a modern invention...<G>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi all,

I am a tippet fiend. I absolutely love them! But I started thinking
about something the other day. It seems that a lot, if not most, gowns
during the mid- to late-fourteenth century (my preferred era) were
fur-lined. And in every depiction I've seen, the interior of tippets
are white.

So here's my quandry: was the gown completely lined in white fur? Or
maybe just the bodice? Or would a cheaper fur have been used for the
body and then the white fur added to the sleeves?

I suppose any of these would have worked depending upon the wealth of
the gown's wearer. Does anybody out there have an opinion on this?

Thanks!
Melissent

--
Melanie Cozad
Lady Melissent d'Artois [Ponte Alto - Atlantia - SCA]
Milicent Chapman [Lord Grey's Retinue]
melaniesuzanne@...

I desperately need information concerning 16th century
french military uniforms, or gendarmes uniforms.

Where do I look? Is there someone who makes them?

Mel

http://photos.msn.com/Viewing/Album.aspx?PST=8nK2AN1B!1JmZao!iR2Cw3uw!pBEa4aSFPJ\
L3F7OvJVeGXi1XfEChBbJ6C3!IYM4V7aWcqCeGB5dJAjLw4VaMQ%24%24

italian, but might be what you're looking for.

Ashe'el

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Lady Aranel" <LadyAranel@g...> wrote:
>
> is there any documentation to support a square necked sideless
surcoat or a split side seam sideless surcoat (to show off the under
dress)?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Trish
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/html_En/03/hm3_3_1_9c.html

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, Frank and Tracy Thallas
<hardcorps@e...> wrote:
>
>   Thanks! That's interesting stuff.  There's a pic from Ambrose in
> the Hermitage (would post the addy if I'd written it down) which would
> also be of interest to smockers - "Portrait of a Young Man", I think
is the title,
> and he has a lovely shirt...
>
> Liadain
> thinking that soap operas are NOT a modern invention...<G>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: borderlands15213 <borderlands15213@y...>
> Sent: Dec 1, 2004 11:52 AM
> To: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [SCA-Garb] Re: oops Tudor gown?
>
>
>
> Ambrose, familiarly known to his family as "Prosy," was the son of
> Hans Holbein the Elder and the brother of Hans Holbein the Younger
> (logical!  <g>)
> Hans the Elder did a group or family portrait--"group" I think, as I
> believe it is of just himself and these two sons although his wife
> gave him five or six or seven children all told--in which he has his
> hand on the younger Hans's, still a young child as we in the twenty-
> first century assess maturity, shoulder, as if stating that *this*
> son, rather than the elder son, was the one who of all of a talented
> family (younger Hans and Prosy worked for dad and uncle in their
> studio/goldsmithing) would achieve greatness.  Evidently Hans the
> Younger showed extraordinary ability and extraordinary promise, even
> from a very young age.
> The family fell on hard times financially (apparently dad was a poor
> manager) and by 1516 Hans Elder was totally ruined; the family split
> up, with the two boys heading off to Basel.  By 1518, we know, Hans
> the Younger was married to a young widow, Elsbeth Schmid, and Ambrose
> had died a violent death although whether this was by his own hand or
> at someone else's has not been satisfactorily determined as far as I
> know.
>
> Yseult

Please let us know how they work and how they hold up to use!  I'd love such
a thing,
if it sews smoothly and doesn't discolor my fabrics after a lot of handling...

Liadain

-----Original Message-----
From: Capri Richardson-Nicholson <sorcha_obranigain@...>
Sent: Dec 1, 2004 5:13 PM
To: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [SCA-Garb] Handmade period needles


I have not used these ones before.  I am not certain if they are stainless.  The
specs were not that specific.  I was at a RUM a couple of weeks ago and saw a
lady with one and went hunting for myself.  She was doing happy dances over
hers.  I suspect that I will be doing happy dances too.  Especially when I am
working with my silks, which I am addicted to.

s

Were there fur tippets?  I always understood them (not my period of
study) to be the fluttery white things hanging off the elbows of ladies in
cotehardies.....

Liadain
curious

-----Original Message-----
From: Melanie Cozad <melaniesuzanne@...>
Sent: Dec 1, 2004 9:07 PM
To: aotc@yahoogroups.com, sca-garb@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SCA-Garb] Fur lined gowns with tippets



Hi all,

I am a tippet fiend. I absolutely love them! But I started thinking
about something the other day. It seems that a lot, if not most, gowns
during the mid- to late-fourteenth century (my preferred era) were
fur-lined. And in every depiction I've seen, the interior of tippets
are white.

So here's my quandry: was the gown completely lined in white fur? Or
maybe just the bodice? Or would a cheaper fur have been used for the
body and then the white fur added to the sleeves?

I suppose any of these would have worked depending upon the wealth of
the gown's wearer. Does anybody out there have an opinion on this?

Thanks!
Melissent

--
Melanie Cozad
Lady Melissent d'Artois [Ponte Alto - Atlantia - SCA]
Milicent Chapman [Lord Grey's Retinue]
melaniesuzanne@...

Yep, there he is - thanks!  I'd guess he's German/Northern European, though,
from his clothes....

Liadain

-----Original Message-----
From: "brattboy.rm" <brattboy@...>
Sent: Dec 2, 2004 10:57 AM
To: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SCA-Garb] Re: oops Tudor gown?



http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/html_En/03/hm3_3_1_9c.html

Greetings!

Here is the information on our hats and veils class/workshop with
directions and all the usual stuff.

Date: December 4th 2004
Time: 11-4
Host:
Claudia Bosworth

This is our specialty class on hats, hoods and veils.  There will be
patterns available for copying, as well as handouts, for five men's and
four women's Burgundian hats.  There will also be a demo and handout for
how to drape and pin veils.  Any donations for the cost of copies would be
appreciated.

Directions:

Take Rt. 100 West toward Glen Burnie/Solomons Island.  Stay on 100 and
take exit 20 for Edwin Rainer Blvd.  Follow the exit to the right and
merge on to Edwin Rainer.  Drive approximately 4 miles, the road changes
into Ft. Smallwood. At the CVS/ stop light  Ft. Smallwood turns left,
continue on Through the light, you will now be on Rivera Dr.  Go to the T
and turn Right on to Main.  Take the 2nd Left on to Inlet Dr.  Go through
the stop sign and down to the cul-de-sac, the house is on the Left # 248.
It has an arbor over the door.

Please be advised that there are cats and in residence.  Those of you with
allergies should take your medication before attending.

If there are any questions, please feel free to e-mail or call me (before
9pm) at home.

YIS
Cristina Iarina Chaykinaia
410/796-8774

Does anyone on the list have information about making an early period
snood.  As far as I'm aware crochet is definitely not period.  My
persona is a 1230's Irish noblewoman from the Galway region and as I am
laking in the hair department I would love to copy what looks like a
criss crossed net that I have seen in some illustrations.  My thoughts
so far include some kind of knotted netting made out of strips of linen
but I don't want to reinvent the wheel unless I have to.

Any help would be appreciated.

Aoife Ni Aodhagain



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

That's part of the problem... Some people believe they were added to
the sleeves and some people (myself included) believe they were an
integral part of the sleeve, just elongated.


On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 11:30:34 -0700 (GMT-07:00), Frank and Tracy Thallas
<hardcorps@...> wrote:
>
>    Were there fur tippets?  I always understood them (not my period of
> study) to be the fluttery white things hanging off the elbows of ladies in
> cotehardies.....
>
> Liadain
> curious

--
Melanie Cozad
Lady Melissent d'Artois [Ponte Alto - Atlantia - SCA]
Milicent Chapman [Lord Grey's Retinue]
melaniesuzanne@...

Hmm.  Never considered that aspect.  I suppose either way makes
some sense, though on first consideration it would seem to be more sparing
of fabric to add them?   Or perhaps it's both ways - in illustrations I've seen,
some look integral - like a lined tongue of fabric extending from the (back) of
the biccep-length sleeve.  Others - particularly the ones with the band around
the biceps - look like add-ons.  Seasonal?  Fashion choice?  Old gowns remade
more
fashionably?

Liadain
no answers, lots of questions

-----Original Message-----
From: Melanie Cozad <melaniesuzanne@...>
Sent: Dec 2, 2004 10:51 AM
To: sca-garb@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [SCA-Garb] Fur lined gowns with tippets



That's part of the problem... Some people believe they were added to
the sleeves and some people (myself included) believe they were an
integral part of the sleeve, just elongated.

You know, there are really not many pictorial sources of Irish women from
this era, but I can't think of a single one with a snood.  Braids, yep.  Hair
invisible
under veil, yep.  Loose, yep....
   Hmm.  I'm gonna go hunt some more...<G>

Liadain
avoiding re-stringing Seumas's chotki...

-----Original Message-----
From: Eva Muehlhause <aoifeniaodhagain@...>
Sent: Dec 2, 2004 10:51 AM
To: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SCA-Garb] mid-13th century snood



Does anyone on the list have information about making an early period
snood.  As far as I'm aware crochet is definitely not period.  My
persona is a 1230's Irish noblewoman from the Galway region and as I am
laking in the hair department I would love to copy what looks like a
criss crossed net that I have seen in some illustrations.  My thoughts
so far include some kind of knotted netting made out of strips of linen
but I don't want to reinvent the wheel unless I have to.

Any help would be appreciated.

Aoife Ni Aodhagain

<snip>
> ...you'll see that partlets weren't always sheer.  And they are not
> classified as 'body linen,' being worn over the gown and fastened
> under the arm *outside* the gown. <snip>

While this is true the picture to which the original post was referring was
a sheer partlet so these over partlets while interesting and useful are not
related to the problem of how to recreate this portrait
http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/secondflor/secflor13.html

<snip> If I'm recalling correctly, there were references to linen so fine
> and sheer it was easier to see--or read--through than modern window
> screen mesh, and had to be woven in damp, dimly lit rooms which
> impaired the vision and the health of the young women who wove it,
> before they were very much older than young.  (Urban legend, perhaps?)
> Linen this fine would be very expensive.
> And to answer another question posed a while back, this would be one
> example of linen used for outer clothing other than a veil.

Yes this would be expensive but so would silk organza so either way a sheer
partlet will be expensive (and would therefore presumably be only for the
wealthy)

> So to answer your question, it seems perfectly reasonable to use a
> sheer silk for a partlet, depending on the season, the reason (flaunt
> your wealth?  Lip service to modesty?  Veiled and titilating
> sexuality?), the occasion (Court?), your persona's status, and so
> forth.
>
> Yseult
<snip>

Well as we don't have any firm documentation one way or the other for linen
vs. silk  partlets I would suggest considering the weather, as silk will be
warmer than a linen of similar weight.
Elizabeth
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Elizabeth Beaumont              Elizabeth Walpole
              in                         OR                 in
Politarchopolis, Lochac        Canberra, Australia
              ewalpole@...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Linuxwitch" <linuxwitch@...>
To: <sca-garb@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 6:31 AM
Subject: Re: [SCA-Garb] ISO Buckram


>
> Violante,
>
> Try looking for miliners supplies, I've seen a few online shops that
> carry buckram.
>
> HTH,
> Ragnhildr
> Who found buckram at Wal-Mart of all places once.
>
>
I've seen it in the interfacing section of local fabric shops, but otherwise
online millinery suppliers are a good option.
Elizabeth
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Elizabeth Beaumont              Elizabeth Walpole
              in                         OR                 in
Politarchopolis, Lochac        Canberra, Australia
              ewalpole@...

WHat would you need for this?  Something between 1/2 and a full yard?
This would be an opportunity to buy something really fine for not too horribly
much money...
    Might want to try out a bit of each, if swatches can be obtained, to see
which \
works best as a support for the weight of the decoration.  You want whichever is
going to hold up under handling...

   A technical question.  When reproducing this partlet, do we seam along the top
of
the shoulders?  Up the back?  No seams?  With what would we line the collar?

Liadain
watching a beautiful sunset and plotting needlework



While this is true the picture to which the original post was referring was
a sheer partlet so these over partlets while interesting and useful are not
related to the problem of how to recreate this portrait
http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/secondflor/secflor13.html

Yes this would be expensive but so would silk organza so either way a sheer
partlet will be expensive (and would therefore presumably be only for the
wealthy)

Well as we don't have any firm documentation one way or the other for linen
vs. silk  partlets I would suggest considering the weather, as silk will be
warmer than a linen of similar weight.
Elizabeth
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Elizabeth Beaumont              Elizabeth Walpole
              in                         OR                 in
Politarchopolis, Lochac        Canberra, Australia
              ewalpole@...




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It probably wasn't Irish :-)  I'm afraid that when I look at
documentation Western Europe and the right time period is usually good
enough for me.  I love the process of making things and like to be as
accurate as I can but research is not my favorite thing nor my strong
suit.

Aoife
--- Frank and Tracy Thallas <hardcorps@...> wrote:
>   You know, there are really not many pictorial sources of Irish
> women from
> this era, but I can't think of a single one with a snood.  Braids,
> yep.  Hair invisible
> under veil, yep.  Loose, yep....
<snipped>

Ah, a generalized snood! <G>  That's cool.  I am thinking about one
for Italian wear, c.1500, made of ribbon and pearls but am still in the
process of working out the shaping I want.  Maybe someone will pop up
this evening and tell both of us how to do it!

   Liadain
whose research is often led astray by the Wild Tangent...

-----Original Message-----
From: Eva Muehlhause <aoifeniaodhagain@...>
Sent: Dec 2, 2004 3:25 PM
To: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [SCA-Garb] mid-13th century snood



It probably wasn't Irish :-)  I'm afraid that when I look at
documentation Western Europe and the right time period is usually good
enough for me.  I love the process of making things and like to be as
accurate as I can but research is not my favorite thing nor my strong
suit.

Aoife

You can get silk organzia at Deharma Trading Co.
quite reasonably.

   It comes in white only (but they sell wonderful silk
dyes) and is sold mostly for silk painting.

   Katherine
--- Elizabeth Walpole <ewalpole@...>
wrote:

> <snip>
> > ...you'll see that partlets weren't always sheer.
> And they are not
> > classified as 'body linen,' being worn over the
> gown and fastened
> > under the arm *outside* the gown. <snip>
>
> While this is true the picture to which the original
> post was referring was
> a sheer partlet so these over partlets while
> interesting and useful are not
> related to the problem of how to recreate this
> portrait
>
http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/secondflor/secflor13.html
>
> <snip> If I'm recalling correctly, there were
> references to linen so fine
> > and sheer it was easier to see--or read--through
> than modern window
> > screen mesh, and had to be woven in damp, dimly
> lit rooms which
> > impaired the vision and the health of the young
> women who wove it,
> > before they were very much older than young.
> (Urban legend, perhaps?)
> > Linen this fine would be very expensive.
> > And to answer another question posed a while back,
> this would be one
> > example of linen used for outer clothing other
> than a veil.
>
> Yes this would be expensive but so would silk
> organza so either way a sheer
> partlet will be expensive (and would therefore
> presumably be only for the
> wealthy)
>
> > So to answer your question, it seems perfectly
> reasonable to use a
> > sheer silk for a partlet, depending on the season,
> the reason (flaunt
> > your wealth?  Lip service to modesty?  Veiled and
> titilating
> > sexuality?), the occasion (Court?), your persona's
> status, and so
> > forth.
> >
> > Yseult
> <snip>
>
> Well as we don't have any firm documentation one way
> or the other for linen
> vs. silk  partlets I would suggest considering the
> weather, as silk will be
> warmer than a linen of similar weight.
> Elizabeth
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Elizabeth Beaumont              Elizabeth Walpole
>              in                         OR
>       in
> Politarchopolis, Lochac        Canberra, Australia
>              ewalpole@...
>
>




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Checking with the stores locally (Maryland) I have found that what
places like Jo Ann's call buckram is really more like crinoline.  On-
line shops have the heavier weights available, and I would definitely
recomend what is commonly called theater or crown board.  It's heavy
weight buckram pre-fused with the medium weight, great stuff if you
need significant rigidity.

YIS

CC





--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Walpole" <ewalpole@a...>
wrote:
> I've seen it in the interfacing section of local fabric shops, but
otherwise
> online millinery suppliers are a good option.
> Elizabeth
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> Elizabeth Beaumont              Elizabeth Walpole
>              in                         OR                 in
> Politarchopolis, Lochac        Canberra, Australia
>              ewalpole@a...

In the Twin Cities, MN the Hancock Fabrics can order real buckram for you.
There is a specialty bridal place that they order from (The catalog for the
company hasn't changed since 1991!, but it's good stuff).  Some stores will
ask you to buy the whole thing, others will let you buy yardage-- it depends
on the store size and how much "crap" they want to keep around.

Check in your area.
Samia

-----Original Message-----
Checking with the stores locally (Maryland) I have found that what
places like Jo Ann's call buckram is really more like crinoline.  On-
line shops have the heavier weights available, and I would definitely
recomend what is commonly called theater or crown board.  It's heavy
weight buckram pre-fused with the medium weight, great stuff if you
need significant rigidity.

YIS

CC