**Thank you, that helps. I think I'll do some with the seam (for the
images I'm recreating that look like they might have one) and some
w/out, for those that look a bit smoother at the waist. You're
definately right about easier cutting with more pieces, as long as
the velvet is all in the same direction... ;-)  )

WhiteRaven

> <snip>
> Well, like you said they are usually covered by peoples arms it's
almost
> impossible to actually tell, There's evidence for waist seams
earlier
> I would personally opt for a waist seam as it's easier to move
smaller
> pattern pieces around so they use as little fabric as possible.
> Hopefully this helps, unfortunately this isn't a hugely popular
timeperiod
> so there isn't a single definitive site with all the info (like
Drea Aleed's
> site for Elizabethan) and you need to find a bit of info here and
there.
> Elizabeth

I'm begining a few projects that will hopefully be trimed with faux
fur, However I'm cash challenged, but lucky me we happen to have
several large bear fur coats. (Don't boo please, I don't condone
animal murder for just fancy coats, I have these because way back in
the mid to late 1800s' my great what ever father lived hunted and
survived in the canadian wilderness and wanted his wife to be warm.
Hence I ended up with some weird heirlooms.) Now I already said I
personally don't condone this, espeasially since now days there are
alternatives, but I also don't condone waste, "when we hunt we use it
all right down to the balls" was what my daddy raised me to believe.
  So should I use the natural stuff I have though it's unethical, or
scrape for the faux? Please let me know what you think.
                                -----------Lorie

Hello,

Newbie here. :-) I'm attending my first SCA event tomorrow evening
and Saturday and the nights have turned chilly. I'm wanting to make a
cloak, but pulling my hair out over the material.

No wool to be had here. Velvet is too expensive. Is corduroy period?
I can't find wale-less, would a narrow wale do? How narrow is
acceptable? And what could I line it with? Flannel???

Is there a file or list of fabrics one should use?

Thanks!

Trish

On one hand, I'd say "go ahead and use what you've got.  It's all just
stuff and the animal is long dead".  On the other hand, working with
fur is a lot of effort and unless the pelts have survived unusually
well, they're going to tear into crumbles when you try to stitch into
them.  I've made the mistake of using old, dry fur only to have it
fall apart in a few wearings, despite my many hours of tiny overhand
stitches holding it all together.  I've also found that, even living
in the Canadian wilderness, real fur is WAY too warm for me.  But
that's just me.  *<8-)

K.

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Larah T" <jellybeans4020@y...>
wrote:
>  I'm begining a few projects that will hopefully be trimed with faux
> fur, However I'm cash challenged, but lucky me we happen to have
> several large bear fur coats. (Don't boo please, I don't condone
> animal murder for just fancy coats, I have these because way back in
> the mid to late 1800s' my great what ever father lived hunted and
> survived in the canadian wilderness and wanted his wife to be warm.
> Hence I ended up with some weird heirlooms.) Now I already said I
> personally don't condone this, espeasially since now days there are
> alternatives, but I also don't condone waste, "when we hunt we use
it
> all right down to the balls" was what my daddy raised me to believe.
>  So should I use the natural stuff I have though it's unethical, or
> scrape for the faux? Please let me know what you think.
>                                -----------Lorie

I'd consider corduroy pretty far down on my list of choices (Not to
say I haven't used it.  Go with what is available and afforable, I
say).  Even something like gabardine twill would be closer to a fabric
that would have been used in period.  Flannel would be fine for a
lining, or if you're not too strapped for cash, one of the
light-weight faux furs like pseudo-shearling (called "budge" in
medievalese).  You don't even have to hem it because it won't fray.
Hope you have a really nice time at your first event!  8-)

K.

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "legolasfic" <LadyAranel@g...> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Newbie here. :-) I'm attending my first SCA event tomorrow evening
> and Saturday and the nights have turned chilly. I'm wanting to make
a
> cloak, but pulling my hair out over the material.
>
> No wool to be had here. Velvet is too expensive. Is corduroy period?
> I can't find wale-less, would a narrow wale do? How narrow is
> acceptable? And what could I line it with? Flannel???
>
> Is there a file or list of fabrics one should use?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Trish

the other issue is that it seems a shame to destroy a garment that's
lasted that long. I can understand why you'd want to use the fur, but
if it's from the 1800's it may have some historical value.

-Gwen

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "kennyeca" <kennyeca@y...> wrote:
> On one hand, I'd say "go ahead and use what you've got.  It's all
just
> stuff and the animal is long dead".  On the other hand, working
with
> fur is a lot of effort and unless the pelts have survived unusually
> well, they're going to tear into crumbles when you try to stitch
into
> them.  I've made the mistake of using old, dry fur only to have it
> fall apart in a few wearings, despite my many hours of tiny
overhand
> stitches holding it all together.  I've also found that, even
living
> in the Canadian wilderness, real fur is WAY too warm for me.  But
> that's just me.  *<8-)
>
> K.
>
> --- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Larah T" <jellybeans4020@y...>
> wrote:
> >  I'm begining a few projects that will hopefully be trimed with
faux
> > fur, However I'm cash challenged, but lucky me we happen to have
> > several large bear fur coats. (Don't boo please, I don't condone
> > animal murder for just fancy coats, I have these because way back
in
> > the mid to late 1800s' my great what ever father lived hunted and
> > survived in the canadian wilderness and wanted his wife to be
warm.
> > Hence I ended up with some weird heirlooms.) Now I already said I
> > personally don't condone this, espeasially since now days there
are
> > alternatives, but I also don't condone waste, "when we hunt we
use
> it
> > all right down to the balls" was what my daddy raised me to
believe.
> >  So should I use the natural stuff I have though it's unethical,
or
> > scrape for the faux? Please let me know what you think.
> >                                -----------Lorie

Greetings Trish,

First of all where is here...your location? There are several nice fabrics that
you could make a clock out of. cotton/wool blend that from afar looks like wool,
twill, faux velvet,faux fur, and some types of flannel to name a few....the more
they look period the better.. Emmaline




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>So should I use the natural stuff I have though it's unethical, or
>scrape for the faux?

USE THE NATURAL!

And then get your gun and come out here and help rid our farm of the
da** bears that are threatening my sheep, my poultry and me. I have 4
expensive guard dogs and we've barely been able to keep them out of
the flock. We've had bears everywhere. They are in town, they have
broken into houses in towns around us, they have attacked the DOW
officers sent to trap them, they have attacked other people on the
mesa, the range sheep operation just above us was losing 30 sheep a
night to the bears, they were in the tree between the neighbors house
and garage and they had to close their wine tasting room because
bears were all around and it was unsafe to go there. We need *more*
hunting not less!

So use your bear skins with pride and if they are too old to use come
here and I'll see if I can find you some nice fresh ones!
--
Oogie McGuire - oogiem@...
Weyr Associates - Multimedia and Web Authoring Services & Consulting
Desert Weyr - CMK Arabian horses and Black Welsh Mountain Sheep
http://www.desertweyr.com/
Paonia, CO USA

At 11:25 PM 9/30/2004, you wrote:

>I'm begining a few projects that will hopefully be trimed with faux
>fur, However I'm cash challenged, but lucky me we happen to have
>several large bear fur coats. (Don't boo please, I don't condone
>animal murder for just fancy coats, I have these because way back in
>the mid to late 1800s' my great what ever father lived hunted and
>survived in the canadian wilderness and wanted his wife to be warm.
>Hence I ended up with some weird heirlooms.) Now I already said I
>personally don't condone this, espeasially since now days there are
>alternatives, but I also don't condone waste, "when we hunt we use it
>all right down to the balls" was what my daddy raised me to believe.
>So should I use the natural stuff I have though it's unethical, or
>scrape for the faux? Please let me know what you think.
>                                -----------Lorie


To be brief--If the coats are in good shape, it seems a shame to cut them
up, as they are historical items in their own right.  However, if they are
otherwise coming apart or otherwise damaged, but the skins are in good
shape, it is fully appropriate to use them.  You will find people who
gainsay me, but it is more damaging to the ecology to make fake fur than it
is to use old real furs.

Mary Taran


   ----------


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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Larah,

I would say use the fur you have for what you can. If _you_ have a moral
objection to using real fur only _you_ can decide.

The options that come to me are
1: Cut the coat and use the fur.
2: Save the coat and scrounge to buy fake fur.
3: Sell the coat, use the money to buy fake fur.

In cases one and two you will still retain your family heirloom. In case three
someone else will have it; but if you can decide who to sell it to they might
preserve the coat for whatever, if any, historical value it might have.

/Lia

  --- Larah T <jellybeans4020@...> skrev:

---------------------------------
  I'm begining a few projects that will hopefully be trimed with faux
fur, However I'm cash challenged, but lucky me we happen to have
several large bear fur coats. (Don't boo please, I don't condone
animal murder for just fancy coats, I have these because way back in
the mid to late 1800s' my great what ever father lived hunted and
survived in the canadian wilderness and wanted his wife to be warm.
Hence I ended up with some weird heirlooms.) Now I already said I
personally don't condone this, espeasially since now days there are
alternatives, but I also don't condone waste, "when we hunt we use it
all right down to the balls" was what my daddy raised me to believe.
  So should I use the natural stuff I have though it's unethical, or
scrape for the faux? Please let me know what you think.
                                -----------Lorie




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>  So should I use the natural stuff I have though
> it's unethical, or scrape for the faux? Please let
> me know what you think.

If you think it's unethical to use real fur, you should not use it.
Personally, I *don't* think it's unethical, and would therefore use
it.

There's also the fact that if the coats are that old you personally
had nothing to do with the killing of the animals in question, which
may change whether you feel it's bad.

Honestly, this is not a question anyone else can answer for you.  If
it's against your ethics, you ought not do it--but no one can tell
you what your ethics are.

--Jeannette

PETA has brainwashed us all.  Use the fur.  If it was already dead then put it
to use.  I was raised the same way to only kill what I could eat, but I buy used
furs at the Salvation Army regularly to reuse for period garb.  And if someone
comes up to you and tries to spray paint your fur take that can away and spray
them.

Sorcha
   I'm begining a few projects that will hopefully be trimed with faux
   fur, However I'm cash challenged, but lucky me we happen to have
   several large bear fur coats. (Don't boo please, I don't condone
   animal murder for just fancy coats, I have these because way back in
   the mid to late 1800s' my great what ever father lived hunted and
   survived in the canadian wilderness and wanted his wife to be warm.
   Hence I ended up with some weird heirlooms.) Now I already said I
   personally don't condone this, espeasially since now days there are
   alternatives, but I also don't condone waste, "when we hunt we use it
   all right down to the balls" was what my daddy raised me to believe.
   So should I use the natural stuff I have though it's unethical, or
   scrape for the faux? Please let me know what you think.
                                  -----------Lorie


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a yes use the coat argument, although people believe it is unethical to use
real fur nowadays, it wasn't when the coat was made.  In those days you hunted
or you starved in most places, nothing unethical about that.  On a no don't,
Historical preservation tends to be dear to most of us, and unless the coat is
already falling apart, it would be a shame if it was cut apart to do something
else with it.  (Victorian tendancies to cut apart historical manuscripts and how
frustrating it is to current scholars, comes to mind here.)

Gwenhyfar Stuart



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If you're willing to wear leather as belts, shoes, pouches, etc, use
the fur.  There isn't any difference, IMO.

Darka

gee... I would love a bear fur coat... or a bear rug, and some bear meat in
the freezer.  in fact, hubby is getting a bear tag and deer tag today, and I
am getting my deer tag today... so, I don't find it unethical at all.
First off, I am sure that your grandfather didn't just kill the bear for its
fur, and at it and used the different parts for things.
As for the fur, I doubt that it will be useful, and will fall apart, being
that old.  I would think of donating it to a museum?  or something of the
sort?
Hunting is one of those necessary evils for many reasons that I wont get
into, though Oogie has pointed out (I would love to kill some of your
bears).

Angelia in OR


----- Original Message -----
From: "Larah T" <jellybeans4020@...>

> I'm begining a few projects that will hopefully be trimed with faux
> fur, However I'm cash challenged, but lucky me we happen to have
> several large bear fur coats. (Don't boo please, I don't condone
> animal murder for just fancy coats, I have these because way back in
> the mid to late 1800s' my great what ever father lived hunted and
> survived in the canadian wilderness and wanted his wife to be warm.
> Hence I ended up with some weird heirlooms.) Now I already said I
> personally don't condone this, espeasially since now days there are
> alternatives, but I also don't condone waste, "when we hunt we use it
> all right down to the balls" was what my daddy raised me to believe.
>  So should I use the natural stuff I have though it's unethical, or
> scrape for the faux? Please let me know what you think.
>                                -----------Lorie

Hasn't brainwashed me one bit!
Angelia in OR who is a hunter, and a farmer who raises MEAT!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Capri Richardson-Nicholson"

>
> PETA has brainwashed us all.  Use the fur.  If it was already dead then
put it to use.  I was raised the same way to only kill what I could eat, but
I buy used furs at the Salvation Army regularly to reuse for period garb.
And if someone comes up to you and tries to spray paint your fur take that
can away and spray them.

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Angelia R" <shados@9...> wrote:
> Hasn't brainwashed me one bit!
> Angelia in OR who is a hunter, and a farmer who raises MEAT!

Won't go into details, but if you eat commercially raised big
agribusiness chicken and pork and won't use fur, you are either
fooling yourself or a hypocrite (is there a difference?).

And for the record, I eat these things.  I realize that it is an
unfortunate fact of life that modern economics makes it cruel, but I
don't use some PETA rhetoric as a sop to my conscience or to
distract me from the fact that this basic cruelty is only avoidable
by going vegetatian.

Rashid

I think it's your ISP.  I use outlook XP Professional and never experience
it, BUT I sometimes get double emails from others on this list.

Soffya

Who's finally the mother who got their sick children off to school after 3
days.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, Kate Blissenbach <fairleaf0213@y...>
wrote:
> Greetings Trish,
>
> First of all where is here...your location?

Evansville, Indiana. I'll be attending Rendezvous this weekend.


<<There are several nice fabrics that you could make a cloak out of.
cotton/wool blend that from afar looks like wool, twill, faux
velvet,faux fur, and some types of flannel to name a few....the more
they look period the better.. Emmaline >>

This is my problem. I am clueless about fabrics and what would 'look'
period, even if it isn't a natural fiber (though I sort of limped
along with the material for my two dresses, since it is my first time
sewing this type of thing and I didn't want to spend a fortune only
to ruin it. I combed the 1.00 bin at Wal-mart and did find two nice
materials that, while not natural, do look it). I've not seen or
found wool or a cotton/wool blend. I have found twill, but not wide
enough and also panne velvet (58") on sale. As for faux velvet, I'm
not sure what to get... velour looks like well, velour. LOL What
types of flannel?

If I can find something, I could whip it up easily this afternoon.
But I feel so lost in the fabric store!

I wish someone would make a document on fabrics for newbies! :-)

Thanks for your help.

Trish

Use the fir.

Say you got milk delivered.  You need it, right?  (regardless of allergies)
But you find out milkman uses some of the money for drugs.

Do you quit getting milk because of something that happens out of your
hands?  You are paying for an item and a service, what happens after that
isn't truly your biz unless it hurts children.

Think of it as recycling.  Animals were put on this earth for a variety of
reasons.  For those who use the Christian bible, Jehovah told one of the
disciples after he dreamed a dream in which all the animals of the world was
shown him under a tent,even animals he didn't recognize or were forbidden
under Aramaic testament, that all the creatures of the world were given as
food.

The fir/hide/pelt/skins would of course be used, wouldn't they?

Soffya


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The only thing to be worried about is having fun at the event.  The only
rule we have in this game is make the "attempt" at period clothing.   You
found fabric that looks natural and used it to make your own garb, that is
all you need.

As for cordory go ahead and ues it, it is just a striped voided velvet, and
is perfactly fine.  Just do not ues as lining any type of satin lining
fabric, (the stuff they sell as blazer/coat lining fabric) you will freeze
with it next to your skin.  The flannel is fine and will keep you warm,
which is the whole idea. Try maybe a solid color that matches your outer
fabric.

Have fun!!

Mirianna
Outlands

<<There are several nice fabrics that you could make a cloak out of.
cotton/wool blend that from afar looks like wool, twill, faux
velvet,faux fur, and some types of flannel to name a few....the more
they look period the better.. Emmaline >>

This is my problem. I am clueless about fabrics and what would 'look'
period, even if it isn't a natural fiber (though I sort of limped
along with the material for my two dresses, since it is my first time
sewing this type of thing and I didn't want to spend a fortune only
to ruin it. I combed the 1.00 bin at Wal-mart and did find two nice
materials that, while not natural, do look it). I've not seen or
found wool or a cotton/wool blend. I have found twill, but not wide
enough and also panne velvet (58") on sale. As for faux velvet, I'm
not sure what to get... velour looks like well, velour. LOL What
types of flannel?

If I can find something, I could whip it up easily this afternoon.
But I feel so lost in the fabric store!

I wish someone would make a document on fabrics for newbies! :-)

Thanks for your help.

Trish






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Greetings Trish,

Indiana will definitely be getting cold soon...down here in sunny  Virginia it
is still a little warm...now for your question...you can get faux velvets in
your upholstery departments of most fabric stores also wider width of twill.
Just watch out for rubber back lining on some of these types of fabrics.  Most
flannels will do for lining and it will keep you warm. Panne velvet and velour
are both good; just watch your colors. I find that your darker colors are always
best. They say black goes with every color. Cotton/wool blends are again in most
fabrics stores but are usually seasonal. They may just be putting it out up
there. Do you have a JoAnne fabric, Cloth World, or a Hancock fabrics around
you. I'm not familiar with fabrics stores in your northern area. Check around,
most people in these store will be more than happy to help you...Let me know how
it goes...Emmaline





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't know if this is really on topic, but I figured that there
might be someone on this list who would be able to help me out.  I'm
making some cloth dolls and I was curious what would have most likely
been used in period for the stuffing.  I'm assuming they would have
used whatever was available -- rags and straw, for example -- but I'm
not sure.  Also, what about the hair?  When I've made modern cloth
dolls, I've used yarn so I'm guessing I could probably get away with
using that again.  Or maybe no hair at all.  :)

Any advice?

Thanks,
Ceolwen

--- bex_1014 <tonkin.rebecca@...> wrote:
<snipped>

> And this one has lots on 16th century venetian fabric types, if
> you're interested.
> http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/seamstress/fabricindex.htm
>
> Hope this helps.
> Rebecca


Hi Rebecca! Thanks for the above - it reminds me that I used to have a 'fabrics
in pics' gallery
that I really ought to get back online. :-)

Just an FYI for anyone who's interested - the pages linked to off the above link
are  about
fabrics (16thc mainly) from all over Italy, not just Venice. T :-)

=====
Signora Bella Lucia da Verona
***The monthly Italian Showcase for October is now viewable!***
http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/yourgarb/showcase.htm
at ~The Realm of Venus~ Ladies' Clothing of 16th Century Venice

Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
http://au.movies.yahoo.com

I would assume bits of cloth or wool.

In Loserana, the Indians used moss as stuffing and for putting in papoose
for 'diaper' material.

Soffya


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Greetings!

   My name is Liadain, and I am a blackworkaholic...<G>
    Sorry. <G>  I was a member of this group a couple of years ago; my
main obsession is blackwork and the dainty linen things it goes upon.
Glad to be back among the living!

All Health!
Liadain

>>I wish someone would make a document on fabrics for newbies! :-)

Thanks for your help.

Trish<<

Hi, I'm a newbie also, and I'm on digest so someone may have already directed
you here but

Ask and ye shall receive -

http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/beginners/FirstGarb.html

I hope this helps.  Also, if you are a complete fabric newbie as well, you might
want to look at the pictures on http://www.fabric.com  for wool garbardine, or
worsted wools to see what the stuff looks like.

If you absolutely can't find anything that is even a poly/wool combo - they
should have this in the stores this time of year. Then IMO (newbieish thought it
is) I'd go with a cotton twill lined in flannel over corduroy. It'll look more
period from a distance anyway.

Amy

Don't know if it is period but sawdust was used sometimes.  Just not
sure if it is period.  I will try to find documentation.

Crystal

Hi Liadain, she's baaaaack. I've missed you if no one else has. I think I was
among the missing when you disappeared.

Kathws

----- Original Message -----
   From: t_thallas
   To: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 11:28 PM
   Subject: [SCA-Garb] returning...


     Greetings!

     My name is Liadain, and I am a blackworkaholic...<G>
      Sorry. <G>  I was a member of this group a couple of years ago; my
   main obsession is blackwork and the dainty linen things it goes upon.
   Glad to be back among the living!

   All Health!
   Liadain

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> ----- Original Message -----
>   From: t_thallas
>   To: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 11:28 PM
>   Subject: [SCA-Garb] returning...
>
>
>     Greetings!
>
>     My name is Liadain, and I am a blackworkaholic...<G>
>      Sorry. <G>  I was a member of this group a couple of years ago; my
>   main obsession is blackwork and the dainty linen things it goes upon.
>   Glad to be back among the living!
>
>   All Health!
>   Liadain

My goodness, Liadain, I was just thinking about you yesterday! Welcome back!

Laurensa