This book was reviewed and rejected by a Theater Arts professor that I respect,
several years ago.  He instead choose Historical Costume for the Theater by Lucy
Barton.
   Barton's book is designed for the theater but is very informative concerning
what was worn and how to construct a similar garment using modern equivalents.

  Katherine

Bice dEste <wantstobecorsetted1@...> wrote:
It's a college textbook. Not sure if I'd call it reliable although
IIRC he cites JA POF an awfull lot. It's pricey too. The copies I
saw on ebay are cheap compared to what I've seen. I think it retails
new for around $100.

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, Susan Farmer <sfarmer@s...> wrote:
> Does anybody know anything about "Survey of Historic Costume by
> Phyllis Tortora & Keith Eubank"  I keep seeing it for sale on ebay.
>
> Jerusha



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ablackram wrote:
>  Spanish Doublet styles: wasRe: Jane Dormer Portrait
>
>>Costume Analysis
>>
>>
>>>>A jerkin is a sleeveless doublet, usually worn as an extra
>
> layer for
>
>>>warmth or fashionable-ness over another doublet.
>
>
> In this case an overskirt is attached to the jerkin hence looking
> like a doublet overdress.  Tre comfy. ;)  Though I would bear in mind
> that these portraits were done of winterish garb in Florence,
> Bologna, Milan etc.  (northern Italy)  Late spring and summer this
> would be waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy to blasted hot.  (been there and one
> layer of linen was too much ;)
>
>
>>I must admit I was a little confused when people kept on talking
>
> about
>
>>jerkins but had links to pictures of Spanish surcotes. As
>
> Elizabethan is not
>
>>my strong point I wondered if I had somehow got the terminology
>
> wrong
>
>>Elizabeth
>
>
> Naw you don't have a problem with terminology, there is no
> terminology in English for these garments.  Davenport as well as
> Arnold termed them jerkins and jerkin overdresses.  I actually like
> another set of terms such as double doublet or doublet overdress.
> This way it distinguishes them from the more straight lined
> ropa/surcoats.
>
> A spanish tailors drawing in Arnold POF has termed it a Saya (#38)
> (page, can't get right now due to book being packed, its up near the
> beginning by the farthingale drawing) (nevermind I have the page #
> from further in my documentation p 27. :)

Speaking of your documentation, Alaina, do you recognize my maiden name,
Jolley? ;)

ciorstan

--- cherylhokw <cherylhokw@...> wrote: <snipped>
>  I plan to cut the
> skirt in one piece entirely on the horizontal, pleating into a band
> that attaches with points to the bodice. <snipped>


Hi Cheryl,

just wondering... is period accuracy one of your criteria? Of course it does not
matter in the
slightest if it's not - practically, ease of construction may play a bigger part
in this for you.
But I thought I'd ask since this method of construction would not have been
likely in your period
(or any other as far as I'm aware) mainly because silk was woven to between 21"
and 25" in width,
so that construction method in period would have resulted in at least one long
seam (two or more
is possible, depending on your height) right the way around your skirt, as well
as the seam at the
back of course. Also you will have the problem of the floral sprays being
sideways won't you? Or
am I misremembering the description of the fabric? It is much more likely that
the sprays were
upright in period.

Please ignore all this if this method was chosen for ease of construction or any
other reason. :)




=====
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Signora Bella Lucia da Verona

The Realm of Venus: Ladies Clothing in 16th Century Venice
http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net
Italian Showcase of the Year Awards: VIEW THE WINNERS!!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
http://au.movies.yahoo.com

How about a dupatta? It's simple, versatile (there are a hundred ways
to wear it), and it would help keep the sun off of your head when
you're outside. Not to mention the fact it's a great way to dress up
a simple choli/pants outfit for court. There is also a good website
with lots of links to different sites about Indian garb. I'm sure it
could give you some ideas. http://www.pir.net/~beth/LakshmiLinks.html

Hope that helps


--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Carolyn" <cjd_1@H...> wrote:
> I have this great Indian-looking floral cotton fabric.  I was going
> to make a Ghawazee coat out of it, but then I realized that
Ghawazee
> coats are Egyptian.  Doh!
>
> I have FIVE YARDS of this stuff - way more than I need for a choli
> and/or harem pants.  So, I ask you, what would a woman in ancient
> India do with it?  I was thinking of making a Salwar Kurta, which
is
> sort of like a long kaftan with pants underneath, but I don't know
> when they started wearing those things.  Anybody have any
suggestions?
>
> - Carolyn - who is sewing like mad to get ready for Gulf Wars

That reminds me...Jerusha, I've got several favorites on my list,
that I was trying to access and print the other evening, and was
getting the cant find that page error message, and they were all
ones you has posted. As in they had "susanfarmer in some address
variant in the addie. Do you happen to have a web page with links,
or something? I knwo there were several images of short overgowns,
and some of them were goldsword.com-sfarmer-SCA, etc. Is that,
perhaps, a defunct site of yours?

WhiteRaven

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, Susan Farmer <sfarmer@s...> wrote:
> > > You know, I'm constantly saving photos I just think are cool
and
> > > forget to put the name or website....Sorry to all who want to
find
> > > them later.  It's a habit I'm trying to break!
> >
> > One of the things that I do that helps some ...  when you save
the
> > image -- give it a new name I use "artist_MeaningfulTitleWords"
> > or maybe something like "domain_TheirTitle" That then gives you
> > either the place where you got it (if they don't cite the artist
> > and title) -- ar the name so that you can look it up later.
>
> One other thing that you can do -- if you save the file with just
> "TheirName" is to do a google image search.  look for that file
name.
> Usually you can find it.
>
> >
> > Jerusha (the packr^H^H^H^H^H collector)

These are all excellent points, to which I have given and will
continue to give consideration.

Re:  width of fabric - I generally do not find that most garbers
reduce the width of modern fabrics to accurately depict construction
necessities of the period.  While I do not support this trend, I
understand it, and do struggle with it intellectually.  This fabric
is not cut yet, of course :) !

I have thought of running a wide band of plain(er) silk horizontally
along the bottom of the beaded silk, both as a design element (re:
authenticity of widths) as well as to protect the beaded fabric.  I
would then incorporate the same or similar fabric into the bodice.

Re:  floral sprays - The sprays are such that they look appropriate
either horizontally or vertically.  If the skirt is cut horizontally,
then the bodice pieces will be, too, to keep the sprays matching.  A
crosswise grain cut will work on the bodice, I have tested that.

Ease of construction does enter strongly into this garment because
the beading necessitates such a huge amount of extra work when
constructing seams, but that does not mean that I will choose the
easy way out!  Whenever I do, I end up ripping out seams, or re-
cutting cloth, or eliminating trim, until I get it right.  A bit
obsessive am I, sometimes.

My design process continues ... all comments are extraordinarily
welcome and get actively factored into my planning.

I deeply appreciate that you are following this thread, Bella.  CH


--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, Bella <bella_lucia_da_verona@y...>
wrote:
>  --- cherylhokw <cherylhokw@y...> wrote: <snipped>
> >  I plan to cut the
> > skirt in one piece entirely on the horizontal, pleating into a
band
> > that attaches with points to the bodice. <snipped>
>
>
> Hi Cheryl,
>
> just wondering... is period accuracy one of your criteria? Of
course it does not matter in the
> slightest if it's not - practically, ease of construction may play
a bigger part in this for you.
> But I thought I'd ask since this method of construction would not
have been likely in your period
> (or any other as far as I'm aware) mainly because silk was woven to
between 21" and 25" in width,
> so that construction method in period would have resulted in at
least one long seam (two or more
> is possible, depending on your height) right the way around your
skirt, as well as the seam at the
> back of course. Also you will have the problem of the floral sprays
being sideways won't you? Or
> am I misremembering the description of the fabric? It is much more
likely that the sprays were
> upright in period.
>
> Please ignore all this if this method was chosen for ease of
construction or any other reason. :)
>
>
>
>
> =====
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Signora Bella Lucia da Verona
>
> The Realm of Venus: Ladies Clothing in 16th Century Venice
> http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net
> Italian Showcase of the Year Awards: VIEW THE WINNERS!!
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
> http://au.movies.yahoo.com

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "aliceshockley" <aliceshockley@y...> wrote:
> Is that all there is?  Am I missing something?  My persona is late
> 13th century (1275 or thereabout).  Now, I'm not stuck in that time
> frame, I'll go a few decades either side.  I'd like to make something
> a little nicer for court and special occasions.  I love the long bell
> sleeves.  Are they appropriate at all?  HELP PLEASE!

There are various types of long dangly sleeves that exist through the medieval
period.  Sometimes fashion is a prgression, sometimes
a reaction.  Personally I think the transition from the 12th century bliaut
(court wear with tight laced chest and long dangly sleeves, a
cote = "ordinary" t-tunic was worn on other occasions) to the 13th century was a
bit of a reaction.  13th century europe (excluding
spain) I don't know much about, but they do seem to be a bit better fitting than
12th C clothes, probably via creative cutting than tight
lacing.  At 1200 it's almost as if a switch is pushed as suddenly hardly anyone
is wearung dangly sleeves.  1190 and sleeves tight to
the forearm and then with a rapid maunche occur, 1200 - tight sleeves.  Not as
many people behind on the fashion times as in other
periods because the dangly sleeves always was a high fashion style only.

I do remember something about tunics with slits at the shoulder, that could be
worn as sleeveless (with the sleeves hanging behind
you) - someone had a webpage (link anyone?), and I'm pretty sure this was 13th
C, especially since I've seen some very late 12C
germanic examples.  Not sure if any of the people wearing them were female
though.  And 13th century spain is certainly very
different.

If your persona is late 13th century, I'd suggest investigating early 14ht
century fashions, but if you were willing to time travel a bit,
1180-1220 offers a fairly rapid change in fashions.
Or just make costumes from differnt cultures for fun - today I'm a viking,
tommorow elizabethan.  Nothing says you can't step into
annother persona occasionally.  (After all I find myself needing far more boring
dresses than fancy ones, for all those camping
and working days, and 13thC robes will do a very nice job of that).


Teffania
(12th century english lady, thinking visit to sicily)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12thcenturygarb

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, WeeCelticlass <WeeCelticlass@c...> wrote:
> HI All,
> I was wondering if anyone knew the answer to my small question.
>
> Can trim be made and used on garb if it is constructed using the
> patterns for "Lanyards"  we all learn to make key chains out of at
> summer camp?
> I seem to recall a variety of weaves and cordage being made by simply
> turning the strands certain ways.
>
>   Any thoughts?

A great variety of techniques were used to make braid throughout the medieval
period.

Lucet is very dubiously doccumented (no unequivacal medeival cases) and is made
using a tool.  The briaid is easy to put down mid
way, but is only moderate in speed and possible complexity. Simple braids are
square, more complex ones can be flatter, multiple
colours may be used.

Fingerloop braiding was very popular in 12-15th C london.  I'm not sure on other
areas, but I know this technique was much more
widely used than this.  Simple patterns can be very fast to make up to a
metre(yard) of cord, but requires a helper to make longer in
one go.  Patterns can be very complex changing, colour, texture and even shape
(eg round, square, trapezoidal) of the cord. Multiple
colours is easily incoporated, but extant examples are equally often single
coloured.  Can not be put down mid way, most people
consider this a little harder to learn the basics of than lucet.

simple plaiting (eg 3-strand, 5 strand) was used in 12-15th C london, and I
expect that it was probably known in most medeival places
and times.

kuhimo was used in medieval japan.  It makes multicoloured cords using a special
"table".  i don't know any more about this
technique, nor if it ever made it to medieval europe.

A bobbin tossing technique was used in viking times to make flat or round
multicoloured cords.  This may be structurally identical to
fingerweaving, which is best suited to shrter lenghts, except for simpler
patterns.

A scandanavian technique using knotting can be used to make a cord that looks
the same as 4-strand fingerloop, but appears to be
structurally different.  This does involve some sort of daisy chain movement
dring manufacture.  Speed - moderate.  Difficulty moderate
to easy (depends on individual).  The person who taught me this only knew of
18th century doccumentation for this cord, but hadn't
done in depth research.

A form of very fine tabletweaving (tubular tabletweaving) can make circular
cords too.  This is doccumented to at least mid period
london.

There are probably some I've forgotten too, and many of these techniques were
used more widely than i've said- I just don't know the
examples.

How to do many of these is described on: www.stringpage.com

So- if you want to be very authentic, you'll need to do some research into what
types of braids was used in your place and time.  If
you want a good general effect, anything that resembles a braid will pass the "3
-foot-rule", although I encourage you to consider this
a temporary measure to get some clothing ready to wear now, and work on
discovering more authentic methods (or finidng out if your
technique is edieval) for you for the next outfit.

The second question is: how did your chosen culture use braid.  As far as I am
aware, embroidery and tabletweaving were fairly
common methods of making trim for a garment across many cultures.  There is a
suggestion that one of the 14thC hjolfenes tunics
from greenland (appologies for any spelling or factual errors there) might have
a braid trim.  Braids seem to be cauched onto a number
of late period doublets.  And personally  I think using some braid you made may
look more authentic than a poorly chosen
commercial trim. (i've seem some very pretty examples done like that actually).

So ask yourself- how authentic do I want to be, and exactly when and where do I
want my clothing to be from.  This will help you ask
more focussed questions about who wore what when.  If you don't care much about
these destinctions yet, then don't worry about the
fine destictions between types of braids yet either. (it really is subtle -
people keep getting my examples mixed up)

Teffania
braider

I have a few examples of that type of sleeve the best one being Joan de le Tour
dagt of Edward III from an effigy on his tomb.(1377)


=============================
On Ebay http://snipurl.com/3csb
http://my.lulu.com/kristalori
Elizabethan Ladies Calendar
Rolled Florentine Cap Pattern
http://kristalori.com
=============================
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Tiffany Brown / Lady Teffania Tukerton

   <snipped to part I wanted>
   I do remember something about tunics with slits at the shoulder, that could be
worn as sleeveless (with the sleeves hanging behind
   you) - someone had a webpage (link anyone?), and I'm pretty sure this was 13th
C, especially since I've seen some very late 12C
   germanic examples.  Not sure if any of the people wearing them were female
though.  And 13th century spain is certainly very
   different.

   Teffania
   (12th century english lady, thinking visit to sicily)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> That reminds me...Jerusha, I've got several favorites on my list,
> that I was trying to access and print the other evening, and was
> getting the cant find that page error message, and they were all
> ones you has posted. As in they had "susanfarmer in some address
> variant in the addie. Do you happen to have a web page with links,
> or something? I knwo there were several images of short overgowns,
> and some of them were goldsword.com-sfarmer-SCA, etc. Is that,
> perhaps, a defunct site of yours?

No, it's not defunct.  Keep watching that web space for a rebirth
Coming soon to CyberSpace near you!

We had a catastrophic failure of the web server last Saturday.
(It also did the DNS service and name authentication, mail
handling etc -- so it was the Primary Machine for many things.)
So hubby has been working to get things working again.  The
drive that held all the goodies we believe is ok -- but it's
OK, I have them all on my laptop and enumerable CDs.

Hope to be live again Real Soon Now!

Jerusha

> No doubt about it, there is very little information on 13th century
> garb out there.  As best I can determine, it was a
> bit "transitional".

Bliaut as depicted in the cathedral sculptures were as trendy and
flash-in-the-pan as any fashion through the whole of the middle ages.  Bice,
wasn't it, gave you pretty much all the depictions that survive.

> The only illuminations I've seen are from the Manesse
> Codex or the Maciejowski Bible.  Basically, they show long tight
> sleeved tunic style gowns covered by sleeveless surcoats (cyclas?).
> For some reason, they often have solid gold trim at the neck. I'm
> taking that with a grain of salt.  Maybe the artist just needed a
> little gilding and that was the place to put it?  I doubt everyone
> could afford gold trim.
>
> Is that all there is?  Am I missing something?  My persona is late
> 13th century (1275 or thereabout).  Now, I'm not stuck in that time
> frame, I'll go a few decades either side.

> I'd like to make something a little nicer for court and special occasions.


Nicer flowing wool would be most appropriate to my knowledge.

> I love the long bell sleeves.  Are they appropriate at all?
> Lilion

Not in your chosen century.
Popular in many other centuries, but skipped yours.


On the other hand, Elegance of line needs no elaboration.

So, the 13th century (even up to about 1340) has simple, flowing lines.

I've never seen any embroidery or other decoration depicted, just that gold
line (whatever It means) at the neck.


Wasn't the 13th century the height of Opus Anglicum?  Seems a shame that it
didn't spill over onto everyday clothing. I've never seen evidence that it
did, unfortunately.


Ann in CT

I gave most of them if there had been any variants or oddities you can be sure I
would have pointed them out. You know how I love weird. I've seen example beyond
example and frankly I see nothing out there about any sleeve other than a close
fitting sheath sleeve that may come as high as above the wrist or to the wrist.
Nothing flowing nothing gathered nada zip zilch. Which brings up an interesting
question. If in the 100 years before this timeline sleeves had been flowing and
draping (even if the method was simplisitic) why a sudden drop to a sleeve with
no fancy style or elan? Was there a wool shortage? Did the sumptary laws the
world over demand a simpler sleeve for all because of famine or plague? Given
the beliefs then could they have thought that a sleeve that was loose could
allow the plague into your body? What happened? Fashion doesn't tend to make a
rapid about face like this often. I'm curious now dammit.

B~

> No doubt about it, there is very little information on 13th century
> garb out there.  As best I can determine, it was a
> bit "transitional".

Bliaut as depicted in the cathedral sculptures were as trendy and
flash-in-the-pan as any fashion through the whole of the middle ages.  Bice,
wasn't it, gave you pretty much all the depictions that survive.
Ann in CT


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Or another thought. 13th century byz. *G*

There is an example of the Tunic of Coronation of Holy Roman Emperors 12th
century that has some heavy embroidery on the sleeves and hem. Also the mantle
is heavily embroidered. You can see the mantle here
http://www.khm.at/system2E.html?/staticE/page480.html
the robes are at the same museum. If you click on the side link Holy Roman
Empire you will see a number of items of this era heavily embroidered. Of course
the difference is that these are for men and are "eastern"

B
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: ACatelli@...

   Wasn't the 13th century the height of Opus Anglicum?  Seems a shame that it
   didn't spill over onto everyday clothing. I've never seen evidence that it
   did, unfortunately.


   Ann in CT

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The London Finds.  Textiles and Clothing Crowfoot, Pritchard and Staniland.  Has
everything you need to know for really period 13th C clothing.  There are two
other books in the series which include Accessories [footwear, belts, etc.] and
I cant remember the third.  But they have a new edition that runs about 25 or 30
dollars hardcover.  Best thing for your timeperiod.

sorcha
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: aliceshockley
   To: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 10:32 AM
   Subject: [SCA-Garb] There has to be more to the 13th century!


   No doubt about it, there is very little information on 13th century
   garb out there.  As best I can determine, it was a
   bit "transitional".  Cotehardies weren't yet in style.  Bliaut's were
   out of style.  The only illuminations I've seen are from the Manesse
   Codex or the Maciejowski Bible.  Basically, they show long tight
   sleeved tunic style gowns covered by sleeveless surcoats (cyclas?).
   For some reason, they often have solid gold trim at the neck. I'm
   taking that with a grain of salt.  Maybe the artist just needed a
   little gilding and that was the place to put it?  I doubt everyone
   could afford gold trim.

   Is that all there is?  Am I missing something?  My persona is late
   13th century (1275 or thereabout).  Now, I'm not stuck in that time
   frame, I'll go a few decades either side.  I'd like to make something
   a little nicer for court and special occasions.  I love the long bell
   sleeves.  Are they appropriate at all?  HELP PLEASE!

   Lilion



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

IIRC  it is 'Shoes and Pattens'

Katheryne

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Capri Richardson-Nicholson sorcha_obranigain@...

The London Finds.  Textiles and Clothing Crowfoot, Pritchard and Staniland.
Has everything you need to know for really period 13th C clothing.  There
are two other books in the series which include Accessories [footwear,
belts, etc.] and I cant remember the third.  But they have a new edition
that runs about 25 or 30 dollars hardcover.  Best thing for your timeperiod.

sorcha

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .

--- cherylhokw <cherylhokw@...> wrote:

> These are all excellent points, to which I have given and will
> continue to give consideration.

Good. It's unfortunate that sometimes motives are misunderstood on mailing lists
- glad to see you
have not misunderstood mine. :-)


Did you end up deciding on doing an Italian? I can't remember, but any further
comment reflects my
vague notion that you *have* chosen Italian, and is just to explain *my*
thinking, not to try to
talk you out of yours, ok? :)



> Re:  width of fabric - I generally do not find that most garbers
> reduce the width of modern fabrics to accurately depict construction
> necessities of the period.  While I do not support this trend, I
> understand it, and do struggle with it intellectually.  This fabric
> is not cut yet, of course :) !


True - but then there is no real need to, because to reduce the width simply
requires *more* of
the accurate type of seam - vertical. Whether rectangular panel skirts or
trapezoidal panel skirts
are used, this is the case, and thus all we are doing is making *more* of the
correct seams. It is
a superflous touch that has no real bearing save in an A&S comp. The fabric is
still oriented
correctly, the pattern thus is also oriented correctly, it just has less of the
correctly orinted
seams.

But in trying to use fabric in one long panel horizontally, you are creating a
probable
period-incorrect usage of fabric. Which, to be fair, is also not really too much
of a problem
except in relation to an A&S comp, *or* unless you also have a figured fabric to
contend with, as
you do, because it adds a visual clue to that layout.



> Re:  floral sprays - The sprays are such that they look appropriate
> either horizontally or vertically.


It may look appropriate to some modern eyes, and in that respect if you are
happy with it there is
no reason not to use it that way if you wish. But in period it was unlikely that
a spray of
flowers would have been woven, and thus depicted, sideways. So long as you are
happy with the
outcome, that is all that really matters. :)


> I deeply appreciate that you are following this thread, Bella.  CH


Well, lately it's not too often I have the time to comment, nor does the topic
of sixteenth
century Italian fashion come up often enough for me to comment on this list more
than once is a
blue moon!

And I do have a teeny weeny ulterior motive you see....I'm always on the
look-out for possible
future Italian Showcases! <evil grin>


Bella of the "Italian Showcase" booked up 'til June! <keeping fingers crossed>
:-)

Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
http://au.movies.yahoo.com

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Bice d'Este" <wantstobecorsetted1@h...> wrote:
> I gave most of them if there had been any variants or oddities you can be sure
I would have pointed them out. You know how I love
weird. I've seen example beyond example and frankly I see nothing out there
about any sleeve other than a close fitting sheath sleeve
that may come as high as above the wrist or to the wrist. Nothing flowing
nothing gathered nada zip zilch. Which brings up an
interesting question. If in the 100 years before this timeline sleeves had been
flowing and draping (even if the method was simplisitic)
why a sudden drop to a sleeve with no fancy style or elan? Was there a wool
shortage? Did the sumptary laws the world over
demand
a simpler sleeve for all because of famine or plague? Given the beliefs then
could they have thought that a sleeve that was loose
could
allow the plague into your body? What happened? Fashion doesn't tend to make a
rapid about face like this often. I'm curious now
dammit.

Personally I think of the 12th Century bliaut (the tight laced court dress) as a
failed fashion experiment of evolution.  I'm a fan of the
rectangular bliaut cut, and I think of lacing as an attempt to make these
rectangular cut pieces into a tightly fitting garment.  But the
truth is, lacing can only make the garment so much formfitting.  It especially
fails around the shoulders.  Having made the lacing as
tight as possible, and still not being as tight as people wanted, it became and
evolutionary dead end and stopped progressing.
Around the transition to the 13th century someone worked out and popularised a
new way of cutting garments (probably involving
some curved seams) that gave a more form fitting fit (an evolutionary path which
continued into the 14th century).  Suddenly everyone
discards the sleeves as they are the marker of the old fashion which didn't fit
as well.  They wear tight sleeves that show off that they
are wearing the new fashion which is more form fitting (a trend continued in
14th C buttoned sleeves whic hare even tighter). Also note
that over the century the bliaut evolved from large bell shaped sleeves to
maunches that were only near the wrist - they were evolving
down the sleeve out of existance.
Anyway, just my personal theory, not nearly enough evidence to substantiate (and
I know 12C fairly well, but 13th C I don't really
know)



---Ann worte---
> Bliaut as depicted in the cathedral sculptures were as trendy and
> flash-in-the-pan as any fashion through the whole of the middle ages.  Bice,
> wasn't it, gave you pretty much all the depictions that survive.
> Ann in CT

Actually there are a lot of depictions of bliauts out there.  Sure less than
most other periods, but still a very large number. (look for
books on romanesque art).  however, a number are hard to get to, unpublished,
etc.  And interpreting what a widely varying artwork is
in actual clothing terms without many extant garments is real tricky.


---someone- Bice? said about the holy roman emporers clothes---
Actually these are sicilian, fairly typical of the 12th C eastern influenced
style.  A mix of byzantine and bliaut.  Roger's robes have a
fortune in embroidery on them, but are in line with the level of decoration that
might be seen on simularly rich 12C kings (few were as
rich as Roger). Anyway in the 12th C decorated trim was real popular. (eg on the
edges of those droopy sleeves).  Can't guarantee
this carries over into the 13th century.

I bet there is a bit more interest to 13th century clothing once you look at the
details.  I found finding 12C artwork tricky (even in my
university library) until I worked out it was called romanesque.  If you look in
a large library for gothic art you'll probably find quite a few
pictures, and eventually you'll find there is a bit of variety between differnt
areas, decades, and manuscripts.  The tricky bit is - how to
reconstruct an interesting garment from a vauge picture.
I'd reccomend talking to the 75 years mailing list - they might be able to
suggest a few more ideas.

Teffania

A correction. They were embroidered by Arabic artists. The reason I say this is
because they were inscribed with Arabic embroidery detailing who they were for
(From the site: "of the production at the royal workshop in Palermo in 528
(according to Islamic chronology) corresponding to the Christian year 1133/34.
Thus this robe was made for Roger II of Sicily (1095-1154)) Even though the
clothes were made in Palermo (funny I can't help it we have a small town of that
name here) the Islamic community had a large hand in the  making of the whole
outfit is my understanding (there is also a robe not the one shown on the site)
what is interesting is Islamic law forbids the use of animals in paintings etc
so this garment must have required the artists special "dispentation" from the
local mullahs.
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Tiffany Brown / Lady Teffania Tukerton
   To: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 7:24 PM
   Subject: [SCA-Garb] Re: There has to be more to the 13th century!
   ---someone- Bice? said about the holy roman emporers clothes---
   Actually these are sicilian, fairly typical of the 12th C eastern influenced
style.  A mix of byzantine and bliaut.  Roger's robes have a
   fortune in embroidery on them, but are in line with the level of decoration
that might be seen on simularly rich 12C kings (few were as
   rich as Roger). Anyway in the 12th C decorated trim was real popular. (eg on
the edges of those droopy sleeves).  Can't guarantee
   this carries over into the 13th century.


   Teffania

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bella - You are tantalizing in your responses, a courtesan's tactic,
perhaps?  I *love* thinking about and discussing clothing design,
particularly when there are logical restraints to that design, such
as period accuracy.

About the embroidered floral sprays:  When the fabric is displayed
horizontally, the embroidered sprays are vertical.

When fabric was woven in the 16th century, it was say 18-25" wide,
but couldn't it have been of an unlimited length on the length-wise
grain, depending upon the wealth of the buyer?  If so, could I cut
the orange embroidered fabric to say an 18" width, insert a band of
perhaps heavy gold silk, and then finish with the orange embroidered
fabric cut to provide the proper skirt length - all cut
horizontally, with patterns appropriately aligned?  This would allow
for the proper period fabric width, and if my assumption is correct
that the length of the fabric's length-wise grain is not a problem,
would this get around the vertical seaming period inaccuracy - the
inaccuracy of course being that there is at most one vertical seam?
(The placement of the embroidered floral sprays does allow straight
horizontal cutting that does not require the removal of beads or
embroidery in order to seam.)

Did that paragraph make sense - should I try Italian rather than
English??!!

And ... what clever courtesan ever operates *without* an ulterior
motive?  Cheryl Hilda.


--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, Bella <bella_lucia_da_verona@y...>
wrote:
>  --- cherylhokw <cherylhokw@y...> wrote:
>
> > These are all excellent points, to which I have given and will
> > continue to give consideration.
>
> Good. It's unfortunate that sometimes motives are misunderstood on
mailing lists - glad to see you
> have not misunderstood mine. :-)
>
>
> Did you end up deciding on doing an Italian? I can't remember, but
any further comment reflects my
> vague notion that you *have* chosen Italian, and is just to explain
*my* thinking, not to try to
> talk you out of yours, ok? :)
>
>
>
> > Re:  width of fabric - I generally do not find that most garbers
> > reduce the width of modern fabrics to accurately depict
construction
> > necessities of the period.  While I do not support this trend, I
> > understand it, and do struggle with it intellectually.  This
fabric
> > is not cut yet, of course :) !
>
>
> True - but then there is no real need to, because to reduce the
width simply requires *more* of
> the accurate type of seam - vertical. Whether rectangular panel
skirts or trapezoidal panel skirts
> are used, this is the case, and thus all we are doing is making
*more* of the correct seams. It is
> a superflous touch that has no real bearing save in an A&S comp.
The fabric is still oriented
> correctly, the pattern thus is also oriented correctly, it just has
less of the correctly orinted
> seams.
>
> But in trying to use fabric in one long panel horizontally, you are
creating a probable
> period-incorrect usage of fabric. Which, to be fair, is also not
really too much of a problem
> except in relation to an A&S comp, *or* unless you also have a
figured fabric to contend with, as
> you do, because it adds a visual clue to that layout.
>
>
>
> > Re:  floral sprays - The sprays are such that they look
appropriate
> > either horizontally or vertically.
>
>
> It may look appropriate to some modern eyes, and in that respect if
you are happy with it there is
> no reason not to use it that way if you wish. But in period it was
unlikely that a spray of
> flowers would have been woven, and thus depicted, sideways. So long
as you are happy with the
> outcome, that is all that really matters. :)
>
>
> > I deeply appreciate that you are following this thread, Bella.  CH
>
>
> Well, lately it's not too often I have the time to comment, nor
does the topic of sixteenth
> century Italian fashion come up often enough for me to comment on
this list more than once is a
> blue moon!
>
> And I do have a teeny weeny ulterior motive you see....I'm always
on the look-out for possible
> future Italian Showcases! <evil grin>
>
>
> Bella of the "Italian Showcase" booked up 'til June! <keeping
fingers crossed> :-)
>
> Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
> http://au.movies.yahoo.com

--- cherylhokw <cherylhokw@...> wrote:

> Bella - You are tantalizing in your responses, a courtesan's tactic,
> perhaps?


<LOL> Rhetoric. The better Venetian courtesans were well known for it. :)


>  I *love* thinking about and discussing clothing design,
> particularly when there are logical restraints to that design, such
> as period accuracy.
>
> About the embroidered floral sprays:  When the fabric is displayed
> horizontally, the embroidered sprays are vertical.


Wow...how utterly curious! I've never seen that before.



> When fabric was woven in the 16th century, it was say 18-25" wide,
> but couldn't it have been of an unlimited length on the length-wise
> grain, depending upon the wealth of the buyer?


I'm not sure about unlimited (weavers please chime in here if you know more) but
I have the vague
notion that it was limited somewhat, that is, much less than we would find on a
bolt of fabric
today. Still, I think it would have been enough for your purposes, yes. :)


> If so, could I cut
> the orange embroidered fabric to say an 18" width, insert a band of
> perhaps heavy gold silk, and then finish with the orange embroidered
> fabric cut to provide the proper skirt length - all cut
> horizontally, with patterns appropriately aligned?


Oh yes...you could certainly do that.


>  This would allow
> for the proper period fabric width, and if my assumption is correct
> that the length of the fabric's length-wise grain is not a problem,
> would this get around the vertical seaming period inaccuracy - the
> inaccuracy of course being that there is at most one vertical seam?


To an extent, yes. You would have a very plausible construction method for your
skirt. The only
thing that is lacking (if we can call it a lack) is historical evidence for it.
But is is
plausible, nonetheless.

One thing you may wish to consider is whether your gown design is of a late
enough period to
require a dropped bodice point - if so you will need to cut into the long
horizontal length of
fabric carefully to allow for the point, but this shouldn't cause too much of a
problem.

Oh...just thought...the sleeves will need careful placing too.


> (The placement of the embroidered floral sprays does allow straight
> horizontal cutting that does not require the removal of beads or
> embroidery in order to seam.)


Makes is easier on you considering all those beads! :)



> Did that paragraph make sense - should I try Italian rather than
> English??!!


Made perfect sense. :)



> And ... what clever courtesan ever operates *without* an ulterior
> motive?  Cheryl Hilda.


<LOL> Ah yes.... sounds better if we call it forethought though. ;-)



=====
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Signora Bella Lucia da Verona

The Realm of Venus: Ladies Clothing in 16th Century Venice
http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net
Italian Showcase of the Year Awards: VIEW THE WINNERS!!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals
New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time.

>When the fabric is displayed
>>  horizontally, the embroidered sprays are vertical.
>
>Wow...how utterly curious! I've never seen that before.

Just a brief note, if the fabric was originally meant for upholstery,
esp covering couches that is a common way to weave the patterns, at
least I've seen that a lot in upholstery fabrics.

<G>
--
Oogie McGuire - oogiem@...
Weyr Associates - Multimedia and Web Authoring Services & Consulting
Desert Weyr - CMK Arabian horses and Black Welsh Mountain Sheep
http://www.desertweyr.com/
Paonia, CO USA

>ouldn't it have been of an unlimited length on the length-wise
>  > grain

Short form, no, the length would depend on the amount of warp that
could be beamed on to the loom. I have absolutely no clue how much
would be possible in a period loom from that time. I know on my
personal floor loom that 10 yards gets hard to handle. However,
another weaver I know routinely puts on 25 yard warps on her
sectional beam loom. Somehow I suspect though that much over 50 yards
would be problematic, not necessarily on the warping/weaving but on
the finishing/fulling steps
--
Oogie McGuire - oogiem@...
Weyr Associates - Multimedia and Web Authoring Services & Consulting
Desert Weyr - CMK Arabian horses and Black Welsh Mountain Sheep
http://www.desertweyr.com/
Paonia, CO USA

Ciao Bella!  Your forethought about the bodice point(s) is
appreciated.  I have been giving the bodice much thought.  I have
reviewed portraits, and find that even in some late period portraits
there are what appear to be straight waists.  I like the pointed
waists for looks, but the straight waists for comfort.  I'm going to
check into this further.  Grazie Signora!



--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, Bella <bella_lucia_da_verona@y...>
wrote:
>  --- cherylhokw <cherylhokw@y...> wrote:
>
> > Bella - You are tantalizing in your responses, a courtesan's
tactic,
> > perhaps?
>
>
> <LOL> Rhetoric. The better Venetian courtesans were well known for
it. :)
>
>
> >  I *love* thinking about and discussing clothing design,
> > particularly when there are logical restraints to that design,
such
> > as period accuracy.
> >
> > About the embroidered floral sprays:  When the fabric is
displayed
> > horizontally, the embroidered sprays are vertical.
>
>
> Wow...how utterly curious! I've never seen that before.
>
>
>
> > When fabric was woven in the 16th century, it was say 18-25"
wide,
> > but couldn't it have been of an unlimited length on the length-
wise
> > grain, depending upon the wealth of the buyer?
>
>
> I'm not sure about unlimited (weavers please chime in here if you
know more) but I have the vague
> notion that it was limited somewhat, that is, much less than we
would find on a bolt of fabric
> today. Still, I think it would have been enough for your purposes,
yes. :)
>
>
> > If so, could I cut
> > the orange embroidered fabric to say an 18" width, insert a band
of
> > perhaps heavy gold silk, and then finish with the orange
embroidered
> > fabric cut to provide the proper skirt length - all cut
> > horizontally, with patterns appropriately aligned?
>
>
> Oh yes...you could certainly do that.
>
>
> >  This would allow
> > for the proper period fabric width, and if my assumption is
correct
> > that the length of the fabric's length-wise grain is not a
problem,
> > would this get around the vertical seaming period inaccuracy -
the
> > inaccuracy of course being that there is at most one vertical
seam?
>
>
> To an extent, yes. You would have a very plausible construction
method for your skirt. The only
> thing that is lacking (if we can call it a lack) is historical
evidence for it. But is is
> plausible, nonetheless.
>
> One thing you may wish to consider is whether your gown design is
of a late enough period to
> require a dropped bodice point - if so you will need to cut into
the long horizontal length of
> fabric carefully to allow for the point, but this shouldn't cause
too much of a problem.
>
> Oh...just thought...the sleeves will need careful placing too.
>
>
> > (The placement of the embroidered floral sprays does allow
straight
> > horizontal cutting that does not require the removal of beads or
> > embroidery in order to seam.)
>
>
> Makes is easier on you considering all those beads! :)
>
>
>
> > Did that paragraph make sense - should I try Italian rather than
> > English??!!
>
>
> Made perfect sense. :)
>
>
>
> > And ... what clever courtesan ever operates *without* an ulterior
> > motive?  Cheryl Hilda.
>
>
> <LOL> Ah yes.... sounds better if we call it forethought though. ;-)
>
>
>
> =====
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Signora Bella Lucia da Verona
>
> The Realm of Venus: Ladies Clothing in 16th Century Venice
> http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net
> Italian Showcase of the Year Awards: VIEW THE WINNERS!!
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals
> New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time.

Thank you for this information, Oogie.  It is very helpful as I am
working toward a skirt design that is somewhat out of the ordinary in
construction, but I at least want the construction to be plausible
(if not authenticate-able) to the period.  The length I need is about
6 yards, and it sounds like it might be plausible for the late 16th
century.  I will check further.  My best - Cheryl Hilda.


--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, Oogie McGuire <oogiem@d...> wrote:
> >ouldn't it have been of an unlimited length on the length-wise
> >  > grain
>
> Short form, no, the length would depend on the amount of warp that
> could be beamed on to the loom. I have absolutely no clue how much
> would be possible in a period loom from that time. I know on my
> personal floor loom that 10 yards gets hard to handle. However,
> another weaver I know routinely puts on 25 yard warps on her
> sectional beam loom. Somehow I suspect though that much over 50
yards
> would be problematic, not necessarily on the warping/weaving but on
> the finishing/fulling steps
> --
> Oogie McGuire - oogiem@d...
> Weyr Associates - Multimedia and Web Authoring Services & Consulting
> Desert Weyr - CMK Arabian horses and Black Welsh Mountain Sheep
> http://www.desertweyr.com/
> Paonia, CO USA

The "rule" is that one cannot depict living objects in _religious_ works.
The illuminated Korans don't have people or animals, nor do the government
publications in many regions (because they were some sort of extension of
religious docs).

BUT, you can find many, many depictions of people and animals in secular
Islamic illumination and other works.

Samia


) the Islamic community had a large hand in the  making of the whole outfit
is my understanding (there is also a robe not the one shown on the site)
what is interesting is Islamic law forbids the use of animals in paintings
etc so this garment must have required the artists special "dispentation"
from the local mullahs.

The first characteristic of Islamic art is a limitation set by Islamic law
(Hadith): Images of living beings, human or animal, are forbidden. This is
because of the emphasis on the unity and singularity of God, and the prohibition
against idol worship. As a result, most Islamic art is non-representational.
There are, however, important exceptions to this.

My point was at that time that it is interesting to note that a "Christian"
ceremony with heavy religious bearing (HOLY Roman Emperor) was being helped by
Islamic artisans. While it wasn't their religion I'm sure they were not unaware
of the religious impact.
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: J. May
   To: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 12:49 AM
   Subject: [SCA-Garb] correcting an SCA urban legend: Islamic animal depiction



   The "rule" is that one cannot depict living objects in _religious_ works.
   The illuminated Korans don't have people or animals, nor do the government
   publications in many regions (because they were some sort of extension of
   religious docs).

   BUT, you can find many, many depictions of people and animals in secular
   Islamic illumination and other works.

   Samia


   ) the Islamic community had a large hand in the  making of the whole outfit
   is my understanding (there is also a robe not the one shown on the site)
   what is interesting is Islamic law forbids the use of animals in paintings
   etc so this garment must have required the artists special "dispentation"
   from the local mullahs.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: "craftydryad" <craftydryad@...>
To: <SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 5:44 PM
Subject: [SCA-Garb] Looking for resource on 14th/15th cen French clothing


> Hello all,
<snip>
> So if anyone knows of good resources on men's clothing in 14th
> century France, I would be much obliged.  Webpages are great, since
> I can look at the right away, though I can never turn down a good
> costuming book.  Even general discussion of what men wore other than
> cotehardies and houppelandes would be wonderful.
>
> Thanks in advance.

Hi and welcome to the list,
the best resource I can offer you for late 14th to early 15th century
clothing is Cynthia Virtue's site
http://www.virtue.to/articles/Index.html
She has resources on both mens and womens clothing of this period she
specialises in the "silly hats" popular at this time, and houpellandes. If
you want cotehardies go to
www.cottesimple.com
It is mainly focussed on fitting for a woman but you can use the same basic
draping method for male garb.
By the way, What's your name?(mundane or SCA). If you sign your posts it
means people can
keep track of your posts and get to know what sort of thing you're
interested in.
Elizabeth
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Elizabeth Beaumont              Elizabeth Walpole
Politarchopolis, Lochac     Canberra Australia
              ewalpole@...

People are like stained glass windows. They sparkle and shine when the sun
is out, but when the darkness sets in ,their true beauty is revealed only if
there is light from within.
Elizabeth Kubler-Ross

The years that a woman subtracts from her age are not lost. They are added
to the ages of other women.
Diane de Poitiers (1499-1566) Attrib.

If you're interested in the pourpoint of Charles de Blois, go here:

http://www.geocities.com/wolfram_von_taus/Research_Pourpoint.htm

If you e-mail him, he has SCADS more reference material on this garment.

Jessamyn di Piemonte
jessamynscloset.com

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, Susan Farmer <sfarmer@s...> wrote:
> >
> > That reminds me...Jerusha, I've got several favorites on my
list,
> > that I was trying to access and print the other evening, and was
> > getting the cant find that page error message, and they were all
> > ones you has posted. As in they had "susanfarmer in some address
> > variant in the addie. Do you happen to have a web page with
links,
> > or something? I knwo there were several images of short
overgowns,
> > and some of them were goldsword.com-sfarmer-SCA, etc. Is that,
> > perhaps, a defunct site of yours?
>
> No, it's not defunct.  Keep watching that web space for a rebirth
> Coming soon to CyberSpace near you!
>
> We had a catastrophic failure of the web server last Saturday.
> (It also did the DNS service and name authentication, mail
> handling etc -- so it was the Primary Machine for many things.)
> So hubby has been working to get things working again.  The
> drive that held all the goodies we believe is ok -- but it's
> OK, I have them all on my laptop and enumerable CDs.
>
> Hope to be live again Real Soon Now!
>
> Jerusha

**Oh, good. I was hoping it was something like that, repairable,
rather than totally lost. I'll keep my fingers crossed that you have
very few problems in fixing it, and getting it up and running
again. :)

Bronwyn

Yeah, it's a tooth. . . but I'm willfully NOT remembering the story of her
martyrdom.  A
friend recommended a website on saints & sainthood at the Univ. of North
Florida, but I
haven't checked it out yet.

Suzanne

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, ACatelli@m... wrote:
>
>....
>
> She was a martyr, hence the tongs she's holding with some unidentifiable
> body part in it (i googled 'st. appolonia' & found a martyrdom woodcut or
> engraving).
>
>
> Ann in CT