Do you have any of the black and gold trim left?  You can gather each
section, sew it down and cover with the trim.  With either cloth this is a
very period way of doing it.  Just make sure the back is gathered where it
is tight enough for the back of the neck plus 2", the sides gathered to
where you want the neckline to hit on each side, and the neck how far across
you want the front to be.  By working them seperate you don't have to worry
about the back and side pieces pulling the neckline up.  I tie the gather
threads at both ends, then sew them down.  Then sew on the trim over the
gathers.This makes sure the gather stays where you want them to.  Just make
sure you allow room for the head to go through.
*(*Aspasia


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I did a little mischief making on Ebay, caught up with a book I had
been searching for and bid on it and also happened upon this.  Way
out of period for me, but I bet someone on this list might be
interested...after all Janet Arnold is Janet Arnold.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&category=4161&item=3204911026

if the link don't work, then just go to ebay and input the item
number...3204911026.

Madelena

I suspect the harem-pants/chain mail bikini would look tacky on
*anyone* in most situations (bedroom gear like that ONLY belongs in
the bedroom, and at certain paries)

I like your "karma knows best" punishment/solution for them! Owwwwww

On the other issue: I like how cotehardies and the "gothic slouch"
bring about a pregnant look... does anyone else?  I think it a very
attractive style :)

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Bice <wantstobecorsetted@h...>"
<wantstobecorsetted@h...> wrote:
> I have to go with the chain mail thing but saying that....If
someone
> is honestly doing a middle eastern perona where harem pants are
> appropriate and are accurate in other areas of dress I cannot fault
> them. In reality women come in all shapes and sizes. Middle eastern
> women of this time period (and to some extent now) were thought the
> bigger the better. I know that even europe heavy women were thought
> more fertile. I know today we have issues with bigger women but I
> don't being one myself. So let's give the beinifet of the doubt and
> meanwhile hope they catch a nipple in the chainmail for  being so
> tacky.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>
> But a chainmail bra and
> > harem pants on a 250 pound female is tacky.
> >
> > Caiterina

What Bice said.   And some of us size 3X women are smart enough to line
the chainmail with something soft (and smart enough NOT to wear it to
Pennsic in the first place.   You got any idea what tender skin feels
like after a bad sunburn?)  :-p


:-)---Holly---<--<-@
Likes chainmail and leather and so do her very intelligent men *G*



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bice <wantstobecorsetted@...>
> [mailto:wantstobecorsetted@...]
>
>
> I have to go with the chain mail thing but saying that....If someone
> is honestly doing a middle eastern perona where harem pants are
> appropriate and are accurate in other areas of dress I cannot fault
> them. In reality women come in all shapes and sizes. Middle eastern
> women of this time period (and to some extent now) were thought the
> bigger the better. I know that even europe heavy women were thought
> more fertile. I know today we have issues with bigger women but I
> don't being one myself. So let's give the beinifet of the doubt and
> meanwhile hope they catch a nipple in the chainmail for  being so
> tacky.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> But a chainmail bra and
> > harem pants on a 250 pound female is tacky.
> >
> > Caiterina
>

Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the
SCA-Garb group:

Are you going to Gulf Wars 2003?

   o Yes!
   o No  :-(
   o Maybe


To vote, please visit the following web page:

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Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!

On another E-Bay note...I was listening to the radio this noon hour
and the site of the day was:
http://www.ebayersthatsuck.com/index.html

Not a toungue in cheek approach at all. This is a site to go after
deadbeats and the like. Enjoy!!

Ok this time my wide evil grin just doesn't cover it.


--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Holly" <hollygrimmett@y...> wrote:

>
> :-)---Holly---<--<-@
> Likes chainmail and leather and so do her very intelligent men *G*

How about chain mail harem pants?? Talk about karma.....



--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "sismith42 <sismith42@y...>"
<sismith42@y...> wrote:
> I suspect the harem-pants/chain mail bikini would look tacky on
> *anyone* in most situations (bedroom gear like that ONLY belongs in
> the bedroom, and at certain paries)
>
> I like your "karma knows best" punishment/solution for them! Owwwwww

Let me clarify the chain mail bikini comment, since I
made it...

I play Central Asian/Middle Eastern and loooooove my
harem pants.  Howsomever, I would *never* wear a chain
mail bikini top, even if I were skinny enough to want
to attempt it.

Sooo, my issue is not with the pants, my issue lies
with the bikini top.  I've seen them in rabbit fur
too, and have the same objection.

Maimuna, Drygestan, Outlands

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Re: Haven Avare:

DH and I camped next to you guys at the last Estrella
War...  Talk about some great camping mates!  Love
that trebuchet, but we were hoping our Border Collie
wouldn't notice, as she's addicted to tennis balls...

Maimuna, Drygestan, Outlands

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--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, jaydev@m... wrote:

> I have a guy friend who wears a stainless steel codpiece, usually
> with black hose and a longish tunic...

At the "Extreme Beauty" exhibit last year at the Metropolitan Museum
of Art, there were two or three metal (armored) codpieces shown in a
display case with penile decorations from I-don't-recall-which
African or Asian Pacific people. A couple of older women looked at
them and couldn't figure out why a man would wear a codpiece... I
told them that it served as a fly front in a period before tailors
figured out how to do a fly front... THAT, they understood!


Brenda, who never did figure out how those particular codpieces would
have fastened into the armor, or how they could have been operated
for the armour-wearers in question to relieve themselves...
webwarren@...

Rabbit fur eh? hmmm...furry leather is out....

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, Katharine Daniel <maimoouna@y...>
wrote:
> Let me clarify the chain mail bikini comment, since I
> made it...
>
> I play Central Asian/Middle Eastern and loooooove my
> harem pants.  Howsomever, I would *never* wear a chain
> mail bikini top, even if I were skinny enough to want
> to attempt it.
>
> Sooo, my issue is not with the pants, my issue lies
> with the bikini top.  I've seen them in rabbit fur
> too, and have the same objection.
>
> Maimuna, Drygestan, Outlands

I don't think she was against the harem pants in and of themselves,but
rather in combination with the skimpy chain mail top.

Harem pants may have been appropriate for some times/places in period,
but I don't think that a skimpy top (especially chain mail) was ever
appropriate to wear *with* them.

jenn



Not harem pants but fishtail saris were worn with either a strip of fabric
across the nipple line or without a top all together.

Ashena


The greatest things in the world are those that neither men nor children can
see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that's no
proof that they are not there. - Francis P. Church


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Somebody please clue me in: what's a gabbala?

Yseult


--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Bice <wantstobecorsetted@h...>"
<wantstobecorsetted@h...> wrote:
> Yes but I don't think a gabbala was worn all the time either. I've
> seen some bellydance pictures and let me tell you these women so no
> shame in their rolls. It's a little scary.
>
>
> --- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, Jenn Ridley <jridley@c...> wrote:
>
> > Harem pants may have been appropriate for some times/places in
> period,
> > but I don't think that a skimpy top (especially chain mail) was
ever
> > appropriate to wear *with* them.
> >
> > jenn
> > --
> > Jenn Ridley
> > jridley@c...

--- "borderlands15213 <borderlands15213@...>"
<borderlands15213@...> wrote:
> Almost postive that the balzo has an understructure
> (supposed to be
> rather lightweight, relative to its size and shape,
> so that a lot of
> what we see, or perhaps *don't* see, is air.)

Yes, this what I've seen written on this topic.

>  I
> agree that looks
> more like a veil/scarf; possibly the Turkish/Middle
> Eastern influence
> we see in some other portraits?

You know, I'm not so sure that the influence is
Turkish. Most of Italy saw the Turks as the infidel -
not a race to be admired or copied from in any way.
I'm not sure about the other middle eastern countries
though.


Bella


http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies
- What's on at your local cinema?

>estimate that
> > these took me about 40 hours of work.

So I can add cobbling to the list of pastimes I haven't the patience to do,
right under brewing and embroidery.

Galiana

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--- "Bice <wantstobecorsetted@...>"
<wantstobecorsetted@...> wrote:

> Ok I just finished reading The Secret Book of Grazia
> dei Rossi...I
> have a question what in Hades is a gammora? Is it a
> robe?


I know this question has been answered already, but
you may find this page - a glossary of clothing terms
from Jacqueline Herald's book "Dress in Renaissance
Italy, 1400-1500" - to be very useful.

<http://pages.ivillage.com/aoda_a/aodasfollies/glossary.html>

Herald lists a gammora, also known as gamurra, cammura
or camora, as

"The Tuscan term for the simple dress worn directly
over the woman's chemise (camicia). In the north of
Italy, it is known by the terms zupa, zipa or socha.
The gamurra is worn by women of all classes. It is
both functional and informal, being worn on its own at
home, and covered by some form of overgarment such as
the cioppa, mantello, pellanda or vestimento
out-of-doors or on a more formal occasion. Following
the contour of the body, it is usually unlined, and
made of wool or occasionally silk. Earlier in the
century, the sleeves are attached; but later they are
more commonly separate, and often of a different,
richer textile."



Bella

http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies
- What's on at your local cinema?

Actually...the term "cobbling" referred to the repair of shoes, rather than
the manufacture new shoes. If you were a maker of new shoes/boots, you were
a "cordwainer". Just a little snippet of interesting info about shoe-making!

Talia
   -----Original Message-----
   From: Amanda Bowen [mailto:reason_prevails@...]
   Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 8:50 PM
   To: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: Re: [SCA-Garb] Re: Speaking of projects


   >estimate that
   > > these took me about 40 hours of work.

   So I can add cobbling to the list of pastimes I haven't the patience to
do,
   right under brewing and embroidery.

   Galiana

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I do see allot of this kind of thing here in An Tier (usualy at
Egils or An Tier/West War.  It irritates me when I see women
that say that they are a "viking" persona wearing tight pants,
and a rabbit fur bikini top.

Though I do have to say the most amazing awful outfit I saw was
a girl, running round in a Zena costume, I am talking early
Zena. AWFUL!!!

I also had a friend that thought that the SCA was a fantasy roll
play game.  He wanted to be a "druid"  with Black leather pants,
and a white poet shirt, with a long black hooded cloak. I dont
claim to know about period things, but please...

Angelia

****************************************************
Sooo, my issue is not with the pants, my issue lies
with the bikini top.  I've seen them in rabbit fur
too, and have the same objection.

Maimuna, Drygestan, Outlands


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Wow! They're gorgeous! Shoes are the one thing that I know I will always
want to work on but will always be last on the list. They make the outfit
almost as much as the appropriate headwear.
40 hours well spent!

Catherine of Dubh Ard, Lionsdale, An Tir
(Cathi in Chilliwack BC
ICQ# 4227964)

"Librarians are the secret masters of the universe. They control all the
information. Don't piss them off!" - Spider Robinson

----- Original Message -----
From: "Talia" <khanson@...>
To: <sca-garb@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 8:04 PM
Subject: [SCA-Garb] Speaking of projects


> I finished my second set of shoes about a month ago. Here's a photo of
> them.
>
> http://www.work-bytes.com/Medieval/greenshoes.jpg
>
>  They're late 14th century style, and a composite of three different shoes
> from Stepping Through Time. The white is where the surface of the leather
> was cut away, exposing the inner undyed layer of leather. I estimate that
> these took me about 40 hours of work.
>
> Talia

You're bothering because it matters to you and you're frustrated for the
same reason. Been there, done that! Wait.... I mean "doing that".
Don't give up, set it aside and let it soak through your brain a bit. Go
back to if every once in a while, poke at it, and eventually you'll have
that *ah* moment. Sometimes it helps to cut out bits of material (doll sized
or so) and play around with them as you read the papers. I don't work well
from words, I learn from doing. But that's just me of course.
In the meantime, have fun with what you're doing and if anyone complains say
"oh good! I've been wanting someone to show me how to do that! Where shall
we go so you can give me a lesson?!" The good one's will walk you to their
encampent and you'll be off and running.
And don't forget, have fun!

Catherine of Dubh Ard, Lionsdale, An Tir
(Cathi in Chilliwack BC
ICQ# 4227964)

"Librarians are the secret masters of the universe. They control all the
information. Don't piss them off!" - Spider Robinson

----- Original Message -----
From: "Holli Hartman" <hmhartman@...>
To: <sca-garb@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 7:07 PM
Subject: RE: [SCA-Garb] Mistress Cori's Kirtles


> No, I get that that's what it's supposed to be, but all the lines and
> everything make no sense to me. I don't know. Maybe I'm just stupid
> or something. It's very frustrating. I'm not really sure why I'm
> bothering anyway. *sighs* Sorry, I'm just really frustrated.
>
> Holli
>
>
> >Okay, imagine the diagram as the front of your body, looking at it from
the
> >viewpoint of a person standing facing you. It's actually not the full
front
> >of your body, but 1/2 of it, from an imaginary centerline that is your
spine
> >and your breastbone. Make more sense? If not, email me and I'll scan you
a
> >quick sketch of what I mean.
> >
> >Talia

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, Bella <bella_lucia_da_verona@y...>
wrote:
>  --- "Bice <wantstobecorsetted@h...>"
> <wantstobecorsetted@h...> wrote:
>
> > Ok I just finished reading The Secret Book of Grazia
> > dei Rossi...I
> > have a question what in Hades is a gammora? Is it a
> > robe?
>

Isn't Gammora the space turtle, Godzilla's  Archrival ? (^_^)-YIS, Ysabelot
Clarisse of Madrone, An Tir

Greetings- I will never ever use Ritz dye again! No, I didn't have a dying
mishap. I have discovered the joys of Procion Dyes. Ohhhhh, the colours come
out so deep & true. Clean up was a breeze, & I can use it in my bathtub using
cold water. It is well worth the few extra dollars. I had some bubble gum pink
linen that I first dyed with Ritz. The box said Wine, it turned bright Magenta.
So
I tried Burgundy in  The Procion & it turned a nice deep brownish red. Doing
the happy dance. So Ladies, just say NO to crappy ritz dye & try the Procion
brand.-YIS, Ysabelot Clarisse of Madrone, An Tir

>tacky.  I think it shows research and time spent.  But a chainmail bra and
>harem pants on a 250 pound female is tacky.

Amen, sister. I really hate the harem pants which are open along the side
seam and show every inch of the leg. It's a crime for anyone over 155 lbs.
to wear them, and looks vaguely hooker on everyone under 155 lbs.

Galiana

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Best garb adage ever coined:

Chaimail Is _NOT_ A Fashion Accessory!

Wear it for fighting or don't wear it. Gosh.

Galiana

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>Ok I just finished reading The Secret Book of Grazia dei Rossi...I
>have a question what in Hades is a gammora? Is it a robe?

An alternate spelling for gammura, I believe. AFAIK it's just a name for the
basic undergown.

Galiana

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>Brenda, who never did figure out how those particular codpieces would
>have fastened into the armor, or how they could have been operated
>for the armour-wearers in question to relieve themselves...

I don't think that they were functional, actually. Evolution in armor design
tended to follow innovations in clothing. You therefore see armor with
decoration that makes it look like a doublet, or like a Landsknect coat,
etc. etc. Rather interesting to see as you walk through an armor museum,
actually. You can date the armor usually within 10 years if you're good with
Tudor clothing.

Galiana

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At 10:59 PM 31/01/2003 -0600, you wrote:
> >tacky.  I think it shows research and time spent.  But a chainmail bra and
> >harem pants on a 250 pound female is tacky.
>
>Amen, sister. I really hate the harem pants which are open along the side
>seam and show every inch of the leg. It's a crime for anyone over 155 lbs.
>to wear them, and looks vaguely hooker on everyone under 155 lbs.
>
>Galiana

I've got pants like that.. I wear them with a knee length tunic, either
"peasant blouse" style for mundane wear, or to keep cool on breezy days in
the SCA. Very comfy. But note.. knee length dress/tunic on top. Makes it
look way better :]

kris

>Actually...the term "cobbling" referred to the repair of shoes, rather than
>the manufacture new shoes. If you were a maker of new shoes/boots, you were
>a "cordwainer". Just a little snippet of interesting info about
>shoe-making!

*grin* I just can't win, can I? Just can't win. Well, add cordwainer to the
list of stuff I've no attention span for as well.

Galiana

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>I also had a friend that thought that the SCA was a fantasy roll
>play game.  He wanted to be a "druid"

Well, he needs a sacred grove before he can become a Druid. He could use the
one at Reims, but there's a cathedral built on top of it.

Galiana

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