--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, Vicky Eisenstadt  wrote:
>
> Why not start the new participants off right, and show them the extant
> examples?<snip>

For people like me with a 16th century focus paintings and extant garments can
be a good option but that doesn't work for something like Viking where there
isn't an intact surviving garment that we can show people (just fragments) and
the artwork is not realistic. This is why when people are completely new to the
SCA and don't know what they want secondary sources are really what they need. I
created a pinterest board of good quality reproductions of outfits for those who
find it easier to understand a photo than a drawing (if you're interested it's
at http://pinterest.com/magpiec/what-shall-i-wear-to-the-feast/ and I'm always
happy for people to refer me to more sources, especially for eras that are not
well represented, e.g. the 13th century is currently very sparse and male
outfits even more so). The upside of pinterest is that you can easily put images
up with a link to the source (which is often a costumer's blog with details of
how the garment was made) the one downside is it's difficult to organise
pictures once they are on a board they are on there in the order they were
added, I would prefer to organise it by era but there isn't a way to manually
reorganise the pictures.
The benfit of a book of good line-drawings is that it works at events or other
situations where you don't have access to the internet and it doesn't have the
bias of costumer fashions (there are a lot more people interested in making
landsknecht clothing than the clothing of an ordinary farmer of the same
period).

Thanks to a Christmas glitch I now read my Garb posts on my iPad.  Can someone
tell me a way to snip posts in the way you want?  Or should I just drop off the
list?

Wanda


Sent from my iPad

(MESSAGE SNIPPED BY MOD. TRIM YOUR POSTS!)

There are excellent, created-by-Scadians scholarly works on Viking-era
clothing, and the research on the Birka and Hedeby digs is easily available
online. I really am fond of starting them off with authentic examples, as
many as possible, and also showing them how the extant examples, etc...get
made and how they look on living bodies.  We've made great progress here in
Trimaris, with new participants enthused about more accurate clothing from
the beginning, by making the authentic stuff accessible, and easy to learn.
Bliauts (12thc) are problematic, as we rely almost entirely on a couple of
statues from Chartres. But even then....much scholarly work has been done
and the two main theories of bliaut construction are well-researched and
supported.  I just do not understand *not* making as many authentic
examples available to new participants from the beginning...especially when
authentic, early period stuff is just as easy, and just as fast to make, as
the T-tunic.  I only started sewing in 2006, and was resistant to the
entire concept.  By 2010, I was able to make a complete early Saxon outfit
for myself, by hand, over the course of a weekend (my sewing machine broke
and i REALLY needed the outfit).   Just about a year ago, our then-Prince
Gunnar commented at an event that the newcomers in Trimaris were wearing
MUCH better-looking and authentic garb than the garb HE wore as a newcomer.
I've found that starting them off on a more authentic footing increases
their enthusiasm for the Game.  Why *not* use the best, most accurate stuff
we've got, from the beginning?  Why settle for less than giving our best to
new participants?

Alysoun


> --- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, Vicky Eisenstadt wrote:
> > Why not start the new participants off right, and show them the extant
> > examples?
> ... but that doesn't work for something like Viking where
> there isn't an intact surviving garment that we can show people ... don't know
what they want secondary sources
> are really what they need.
(MESSAGE SNIPPED BY MOD. TRIM YOUR POSTS!)

--
"Courage is the virtue of deeds... courtesy is the virtue of language."
Baron Giovanni di Fiamma


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Jan 6, 2013, at 6:29 PM, Wanda Pease wrote:

>  Can someone tell me a way to snip posts in the way you want?



I do not own an iPad, but I did find this web site that explains how to trim
messages from that machine.
http://blog.chron.com/helpline/2012/01/how-to-cut-copy-and-paste-on-an-ipad/

I hope this helps.

Joan
one of the mods.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Good Afternoon All,
It was recommended to me that I need to get copies of the NESAT books to
help me with my early period garb. I've only been able to find a copy of
NESAT 10, 7, and 9 in the UK but haven't ordered them yet. I contacted
NESAT directly but they do not have an online library available and
simple responded to find the books at my local book store.

Do you have any suggestions onwhere to look? I live in a rural area
located outside a small town who's idea of research texts is a copy of
the Funk and Wagnell's Encyclopedia and some books on medicine from the
70's. Should I just suck it up and order the copies from the UK?

On 01/07/2013 01:27 PM, Dee Cadoret wrote:
> Good Afternoon All,
> It was recommended to me that I need to get copies of the NESAT books to
> help me with my early period garb. I've only been able to find a copy of
> NESAT 10, 7, and 9 in the UK but haven't ordered them yet. I contacted
> NESAT directly but they do not have an online library available and
> simple responded to find the books at my local book store.
>
> Do you have any suggestions on where to look? I live in a rural area
> located outside a small town who's idea of research texts is a copy of
> the Funk and Wagnell's Encyclopedia and some books on medicine from the
> 70's. Should I just suck it up and order the copies from the UK

You may have to "suck it up" as you suggest, but first I suggest getting
your hands on the tables of contents (or at least a list of articles)
for the various volumes first, to see which ones are most relevant to
your particular early-period costume interests.  NESAT includes articles
about archaeological textiles other than costume-related ones, and the
time period embraced extends to the 17th century.

They are expensive, though, and the older ones are out of print and hard
to come by for any price, because they were published as small print
runs.  If you want to search for any of them, try the abebooks site or
www.addall.com--two of my favorite resources for finding used books for
sale on the Internet.

Carolyn Priest-Dorman placed the tables of contents for the first 6
NESAT volumes on her website, here:

http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/nesatlist.html

I listed most of the early-period NESAT articles in NESAT X here:

http://cathyscostumeblog.blogspot.com/2009/12/nesat-x-tiny-taste.html

I posted article lists for NESAT 7 (I think) and 8 on a cite called
MedCos that no longer exists, and the Wayback Machine tells me that the
relevant server that hosts their snapshots of the site is down for
repairs.

I have copies (photocopies, in a few cases) of all of the NESATs that
have been published to date.  (There is another one, NESAT XI, that was
scheduled for publication in 2012 and will likely come out this year.)

If you are interested, e-mail me back privately and I will scan and
e-mail you PDFs of the tables of contents for NESAT 7, 8, and 9.

Finally, you may also wish to consider two other journals that often
have articles on aspects of early period costume:

1. Archaeological Textiles Review (formerly Archaeological Textiles
Newsletter).  Formerly published two times a year; now published once a
year (since 2012).  Good quality articles, often with color photographs.
   Like NESAT, many of the articles involve early period costume;
however, the articles are often of preliminary research and go into less
depth than those published in NESAT.  An annual subscription is 20 Euros
(about $26 US, right now); back issues, to the extent available, are 10
Euros apiece (about $13 US, right now), and they have two back issues
available on line for free download with plans to add more.  The
homepage is here:

http://www.atnfriends.com/

Medieval Clothing and Textiles.  This journal is also an annual; it's
published by Boydell & Brewer in the UK.  They are published as
hardcover books for $60.00 apiece (earlier volumes are usually available
for less).  The volumes are listed on the following page--choose a
volume to see the list of articles for that volume.

http://www.boydellandbrewer.com/store/listCategoriesAndProducts.asp?idCategory=1\
37

Finally, it may be possible for your library to locate some of the
volumes for you through InterLibrary Loan.  It may be useful for you to
look up the volumes you need (NESAT, or anything else) at worldcat.org;
that will get you ISBN numbers and other data that will help your
library find the correct book.  Worldcat.org can also tell you what
college or institutional libraries have the book.

Good luck with your research!



--
Cathy Raymond
cathy@...
(610) 805-9542

"Remember that time is money."
--Benjamin Franklin

I love your pininterest board!  Is it ok if I forward this board to others
outside of this group?

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth"  wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, Vicky Eisenstadt  wrote:
> >
> > Why not start the new participants off right, and show them the extant
> > examples?
>
... I created a pinterest board of good quality reproductions of outfits for
those who find it easier to understand a photo than a drawing (if you're
interested it's at http://pinterest.com/magpiec/what-shall-i-wear-to-the-feast/
and I'm always happy for people to refer me to more sources, especially for eras
that are not well represented, e.g. the 13th century is currently very sparse
and male outfits even more so). The upside of pinterest is that you can easily
put images up with a link to the source (which is often a costumer's blog with
details of how the garment was made) the one downside is it's difficult to
organise pictures once they are on a board they are on there in the order they
were added, I would prefer to organise it by era but there isn't a way to
manually reorganise the pictures...

Please feel free to share it. I intended it as a general SCA resource (my main
motivation was as a resource for my local group but I'm happy if other people
can use it too) and Pinterest is definitely a public forum.

Elizabeth

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Bobbie Kalben"  wrote:
>
> Is it ok if I forward this board to others outside of this group?
>

So we are in agreement that in the context of newcomers we should be pointing
them to good secondary sources where somebody has interpreted the artworks or
extant fragments and made up their version, that was the aim of my pinterest
board.
I agree that there's no point in starting newbies out in bad garb that they will
regret once they have been in the SCA for a while. When I compare my first garb
with my Fiance's it is easy to understand how valuable guidance towards the
authentic approach is for newbies.
His first garb was a tunic (using the period method, not T-tunic method) it was
made of cotton broadcloth but is otherwise a perfectly good example of something
that could have been worn by somebody from the 12th to the 15th century
(depending on the class) 3 years later it's still perfectly useable as a piece
of garb.
I didn't get much guidance when I started in the SCA so my first garb was made
using a Butterick pattern for a mundane princess seam dress, I made it from a
polyester suiting. I used it for a couple of events before I learned better and
got rid of it.

OH!

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 6, 2013, at 10:45 PM, Joan Silvertoppe <jsilvertoppe@...> wrote:

> On Jan 6, 2013, at 6:29 PM, Wanda Pease wrote:
>
>> Can someone tell me a way to snip posts in the way you want?
>
>
>
> I do not own an iPad, but I did find this web site that explains how to trim
messages from that machine.
> http://blog.chron.com/helpline/2012/01/how-to-cut-copy-and-paste-on-an-ipad/
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> Joan
> one of the mods.
>
>
>
>
> [
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
>

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth"  wrote:
(Snipped by mod. trim your posts!)
>  (if you're interested it's at
http://pinterest.com/magpiec/what-shall-i-wear-to-the-feast/

Thanks for the link!

Andrew

Actually, I do not agree,. I think that if primary sources are available
(and there are a plethora of same), we do our new participants a very great
disservice in NOT sharing same with them. As always, however, it is up to
the individual to decide how far past "best attempt at pre-17th century
clothing" they want to go and we do NOT get to judge their decision, unless
it's an Art-Sci project.  THAT being said, I cannot agree in NOT starting
off with showing them the real deal *first*.

Alysoun

On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 5:30 PM, Elizabeth <elizabeth.r.walpole@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> So we are in agreement that in the context of newcomers we should be
> pointing them to good secondary sources where somebody has interpreted the
> artworks or extant fragments and made up their version,  (SNIPPED)
>
>



--
"Courage is the virtue of deeds... courtesy is the virtue of language."
Baron Giovanni di Fiamma


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

And yet here you are.  Good on you girl for hanging in there.  I think that
most of us have first garb horror stories.  They are always good for telling
around the fire.  Heheheheh

Elspeth Bouchannane
.
> I didn't get much guidance when I started in the SCA so my first garb was
> made using a Butterick pattern for a mundane princess seam dress, I made
> it from a polyester suiting. I used it for a couple of events before I
> learned better and got rid of it.

If printer size is a problem, you could use a blue print copy service.  I did it
once for a quilt and it came out beautifully.



-----Original Message-----
From: Des & Jan Howard
(snipped by mod. TRIM YOUR POSTS!)
> ... Friendly local commercial printer.

On 6/01/2013 5:09 AM, Caroline P wrote:
> ... printing on
> fabric with your printer and a fabric ink cartridge,
> but the problem is you can't do a lot of it do to
> printer size.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Over the holidays we went to a couple of museums to see a few travelling
exhibts, one of which was a Faberge collection and the other was a costume
exhibit of about a dozen movie peices.  They ranged from Johnny Depps Pirates of
the Caribbean to Heath Ledger's outfit for Casinova to Kate Winslet's picnic
dress and hat and then to the green velvet gown worn by Angelica Huston in Ever
After.  All of the costumes were incredible, but her's was especially so.  Real
gold thread embroidery on the coute harde,, elaborate gold figured brocade under
dress.  What i wouldn't give to were that for just one hour!  Great as all this
was, it was topped, for me at least, by a book I found in the gift store.  It's
a traslation of of Cesare Vecellio's Habiti Antichi et Moderni, complete with
the original prints of the costumes.  The original came out in 1590 and covers
nearly every known part of the world- every class of people, both ancient and up
to the time of it's printing,.  It cost me $125, but while I cringed at the
price, I just couldn't leave without it.  Is anyone here familiar with it?







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

(SNIPPED BY MOD. TRIM YOUR POSTS!)

I have both editions, the paperback from the 70s with no translation, just
copies of the plates, and the hardcover you speak of by Margaret Rosenthal
of "The Honest Courtesan" fame. LOVE the books, and an excellent
perspective of how they viewed costume in period, including those from
lands that Vecellio did not visit. It's not just a book of costume, it's a
FANTASTIC view of how the mind worked in the 16th Century. He was such a
...fashionista, lol. No love of the black veils worn by the ladies in Italy
for some reason. Really read it, his descriptions are priceless! Enjoy!

Anna

On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Kathy  wrote:
(SNIPPED BY MOD. TRIM YOUR POSTS!)
> It's a traslation of of Cesare
> Vecellio's Habiti Antichi et Moderni,
(SNIPPED BY MOD. TRIM YOUR POSTS!)

--
Angela Costello
www.ofsummerandwinter.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The 1859 French translation with plates is available online:

http://archive.org/details/costumesanciense01veceuoft

Jeanne
>> It's a traslation of of Cesare
>> Vecellio's Habiti Antichi et Moderni,

I am!!!!!!!  I didn't know that TItain, the painter had a costume obsessed
brother!



> It's a traslation of of Cesare
> Vecellio's Habiti Antichi et Moderni,
(SNIPPED BY MOD AGAIN. TRIM YOUR POSTS!)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

IIRC, modern scholarship now believes that some German printer used the name of
Titian's brother to make it sound more important.  Just like it's not really
Angelina Jolie who wants me to buy that stuff they keep sending me spam about!

Rashid

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, Kathy  wrote:
>
> I am!!!!!!!  I didn't know that TItain, the painter had a costume obsessed
brother!
>
>

Thanks for the link!



-----Original Message-----
From: Joanna Hobbins

(snipped by mod. trim your posts)
http://archive.org/details/costumesanciense01veceuoft


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There was much discussion about this translation on the courtesan and
Italian ren  group lists. Cringe is a good word about the price.

Elspeth Bouchannane

Anna>> It's a traslation of of Cesare
>> Vecellio's Habiti Antichi et Moderni,
> (SNIPPED BY MOD. TRIM YOUR POSTS!)
>
>

I think I actually did burn my first garb...and am very thankful there is
no photographic evidence:)

Alysoun

On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 9:28 AM, Jackie Frederick wrote:

(snipped by mod. TRIM YOUR POSTS!)
> most of us have first garb horror stories. They are always good for
> telling
> around the fire. Heheheheh

(snipped by mod. TRIM YOUR POSTS!)

--
"Courage is the virtue of deeds... courtesy is the virtue of language."
Baron Giovanni di Fiamma


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This sounds like an awesome find!

Anna

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 1:38 AM, Charles  wrote:
> IIRC, modern scholarship now believes that some German printer used
(snipped by mod. TRIM YOUR POSTS!)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

An aspect of this conversation might be that in the age of high speed internet,
Pinterest, cosplay, and DIY blogs, that the average beginner who has interest in
making garb has probably already seen some examples online. It doesn't require
going to great lengths to see good examples of primary, secondary, and recreated
garb - if pointed in the right direction (i.e. towards online libraries vs.
online retailers selling ready-made "medieval" garb).

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Jackie Frederick"  wrote:
>
> And yet here you are.  Good on you girl for hanging in there.

(snipped by mod. TRIM YOUR POSTS!)

My first garb was awful! I made all sorts of sewing mistakes!
THL Isabelle de Foix 
In support of my canary Fiona

From: Vicky Eisenstadt

>I think I actually did burn my first garb...and am very thankful there is
>no photographic evidence:)
(snipped by mod. TRIM YOUR POSTS!)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you for the information.  I have not had time yet Again, thank you. to
research  this  further.  The information about Titian came from the dust
jacket.  I am not fully versed in the artist's work either.  I have one book
about him and I have not read it again for some time.  Again, thank you,



-----Original Message-----
From: Charles

IIRC, modern scholarship now believes that some German printer used the name of
Titian's brother to make it sound more important.

(snipped by mod. TRIM YOUR POSTS!)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I cringed but since the money goes to maintaining the exhibits and funding
traveling shows and other special things, I don't really mind so very much. 
Books and the museums are about all the entertainment I indulge in now, since we
are commited to redoing much of the house.  I also have quite a few hobbies that
could potentially take me at least 200 years to finish all that I collected
before I retired.  Isn't life wonderful!



-----Original Message-----
From: Jackie Frederick

(SNIPPED BY MOD. TRIM YOUR POSTS!)
... Cringe is a good word about the price.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The discriptions are only about one paragraph long, but the prints are very
detailed.  I've only actually read about fifty pages, but I'm stunned by the
sweeping scope of cutting across all lines of class, from peasants to kings.  I
don't think he's left anyone out.  Wish I could share it will you all.



-----Original Message-----
From: Angela Costello

This sounds like an awesome find!

(snipped by mod. TRIM YOUR POSTS!)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree totally, I started a year ago, primarily for the garb.
regards
Sue
Dragons Bay
Australia

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, Vicky Eisenstadt  wrote:
... THAT being said, I cannot agree in NOT starting
> off with showing them the real deal *first*.
>
(snipped by mod. TRIM YOUR POSTS!)

(Modified by Mod. TRIM YOUR POSTS!)

Apologies for the late reply.  I also use Finnacan Dubh's Early Gaelic Dress,
which has a decent bibliography at the end for additional source material.

http://coblaith.net/EarlyGaelicDress/EarlyGaelicDress10bw.pdf

He has several print resources listed, but here are his web ones:
Autobiography of Guibert of Nogent
www.fordham.edu/HALSALL/basis/guibert-vita.html
Corpus of Electronic Texts: Táin Bó Cúalnge from the Book of Leinster
www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T301035/index.html
Corpus of Electronic Texts: Lebor na hUidre (in original Irish)
www.ucc.ie/celt/online/G301900/
I. Marc Carlson's "Footwear of the Middle Ages"
www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/shoe/SHOEHOME.HTM
Wikipedia: Gallery of Images from the Book of Kells
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallery_of_Book_of_Kells_pages

Good luck!
Saerlaith ingen Buadaig

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "beorn_se_bacaire"  wrote:
(Modified by Mod. TRIM YOUR POSTS!)
> --- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "J.C."  wrote:
>
> > I'm trying to find some good references for what women wore in early period
Ireland, roughly 800-900.