Hi all! I'm looking toward summer and Pennsic and trying to find something VERY
comfortable and breathable.  Can Cotton Bubble Gauze fabric (found at
Fabric.com) be considered period?  12th century Irish.
What do ya think??
Caissene

---- Laurie Taylor <costumeraz1@...> wrote:
> Greetings,
Finally, keeping in mind the rules for metal circlets or fillets in the SCA 
(snipped)

What Kingdom are you in that they have rules for circlets?
Thank the heavens that I am in Aethelemarc, where the only rules are the SCA
conventions on how-many-points =  what rank!
Which is, of course, what makes Pennsic here so interesting......

I, too, cannot stand the strap-under-the-chin as I cannot stand having fabric
that close to the front of my neck.  I tend to get a bit aggrivated and anxious
with anything touching my neck even in the slightest bit.

As such, there is some evidnce of women wearing Viels w/o the chin strap. I use
a "head band" style strap that works just fine.  You run the strip basically
around your hairline from forehead to back of my head.  If you wear your hair in
a brain or bun of any sort, this will keep the strap from riding up & pins will
keep the veil in place.

I DISCOURGAE using the circlet only as you will then become one of the infamous
Muffin-Tops.  I don't care how hard you try, or what you claim, I can ALWAYS
tell a women trying to use a circlet to keep her veil on, and it is not
attractive. The fabric rides-up over the circlet creating the top of the muffin.
http://www.virtue.to/articles/muffin_head.html

Gheile filia Aldwardi
Sara L.

Here is a site that collected all the sumptuary laws in the Knowne World:
http://tasha.gallowglass.org/sca/sumptuary.html

Petranella

On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 5:22 AM, <SleepyUnicorn@...> wrote:

>   What Kingdom are you in that they have rules for circlets?
>


--
Vladimir Radescu
Petranella Fitzallen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cotton is actually not period, not until the 15th-16th centuries, and even
then it was very expensive and not popular in Northern Europe.

However...Pennsic is hot, and a LOT of people wear gauze. It's affordable
and easy to wash, so I'd say go for it, just for nothing fancy. :)

Anna

On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 8:54 PM, Kathy Fletcher
<kathyfletcher99@...>wrote:

>
>
> Hi all! I'm looking toward summer and Pennsic and trying to find something
> VERY comfortable and breathable. Can Cotton Bubble Gauze fabric (found at
> Fabric.com) be considered period? 12th century Irish.
> What do ya think??
> Caissene
>
>
>



--
*Ang*
http://kaousuu.net


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

100% Linen fabric will do what you want, and be a period option.

Sayyeda al-Kaslaania

On 3/31/2011 7:54 PM, Kathy Fletcher wrote:
> Hi all! I'm looking toward summer and Pennsic and trying to find something
VERY comfortable and breathable.  Can Cotton Bubble Gauze fabric (found at
Fabric.com) be considered period?  12th century Irish.
> What do ya think??
> Caissene
>

As for cotton not being period.  Please remember that not all people are
from Northern Europe and that are many people from Central Asia and Western
Asia where cotton was much more commmon.

Zsigmund
Traveling with the Khan's of Asia

On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 9:04 AM, Angela Costello <kaousuu@...> wrote:

>
>
> Cotton is actually not period, not until the 15th-16th centuries, and even
> then it was very expensive and not popular in Northern Europe.
>
> However...Pennsic is hot, and a LOT of people wear gauze. It's affordable
> and easy to wash, so I'd say go for it, just for nothing fancy. :)
>
> Anna
>
> On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 8:54 PM, Kathy Fletcher
> <kathyfletcher99@...>wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> > Hi all! I'm looking toward summer and Pennsic and trying to find
> something
> > VERY comfortable and breathable. Can Cotton Bubble Gauze fabric (found at
> > Fabric.com) be considered period? 12th century Irish.
> > What do ya think??
> > Caissene
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> *Ang*
> http://kaousuu.net
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
*Szapolyai Zsigmund
Kingdom of Calontir

*


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

She specifically mentioned Irish, which is what I was alluding to. :)

-Anna

On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Daniel Brizendine
<norseceltbear@...>wrote:

>
>
> As for cotton not being period. Please remember that not all people are
> from Northern Europe and that are many people from Central Asia and Western
> Asia where cotton was much more commmon.
>
> Zsigmund
> Traveling with the Khan's of Asia
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Can you talk more about that? According to S.D. Goitein it was very rare
in the Middle East during the Middle Ages, but I know little about
Western Asia.

Sayyeda al-Kaslaania

On 4/1/2011 11:29 AM, Daniel Brizendine wrote:
> As for cotton not being period.  Please remember that not all people are
> from Northern Europe and that are many people from Central Asia and Western
> Asia where cotton was much more commmon.
>
> Zsigmund
> Traveling with the Khan's of Asia

sorry brain fart I did not see that part.  Guess I should wake up in the am
before I read email lol.

Zsigmund

On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 1:19 PM, Angela Costello <kaousuu@...> wrote:

>
>
> She specifically mentioned Irish, which is what I was alluding to. :)
>
> -Anna
>
> On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Daniel Brizendine
> <norseceltbear@...>wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> > As for cotton not being period. Please remember that not all people are
> > from Northern Europe and that are many people from Central Asia and
> Western
> > Asia where cotton was much more commmon.
> >
> > Zsigmund
> > Traveling with the Khan's of Asia
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
*Szapolyai Zsigmund
Kingdom of Calontir

*


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>100% Linen fabric will do what you want, and be a period option.


Good fine linen is cooler, more comfortable, looks better, and wears
better than cotton. Real linen, stay away from synthetics.  Or from
coarse, heavy "homespun" looking linen (which actually isn't all that
period, the homespinners were better than that).

If cotton is what you can find and afford, then use it.  Just don't
claim that it's period.  But I'd look for plain gauze rather than
bubble gauze, that texture is just too different than any period
material I've seen.

Ranvaig

I am looking for the Mistress that taught the Mongol class at Clothiers and
for the life of me I cannot find her class materials as I am trying to put
something together for Kingdom A&S.  Please contact me and also if anyone
has any time to help the newbie with advise and guidance I would be
appreciative.

--
*Szapolyai Zsigmund
Kingdom of Calontir

*


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cotton was one of the most common types of material used by the Indians and
thus also by the Mongols and much of the material used by mongols was made
by Indians and Persians.  If you look at the materials used in the "stan"
areas of central asia cotton was king long before it was commonly available
to the west.  Also silk was a common material

Zsigmund

On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Sayyeda al-Kaslaania <samia@...>wrote:

>
>
> Can you talk more about that? According to S.D. Goitein it was very rare
> in the Middle East during the Middle Ages, but I know little about
> Western Asia.

<trimmed>

The cotton bubble fabric you are talking about is also called seersucker and is
more common to the late 1800's early 1900's.  You would be better off making a
bog dress from crinkle cotton or linen for day wear.  Peronally I have some old
Egyptian Linen mismatched top sheets who's bottom sheets long since disapeared. 
I'm making a couple of bog dresses/Pennisc mumu's out of those.

Hermina De Pagan

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Kathy Fletcher" <kathyfletcher99@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all! I'm looking toward summer and Pennsic and trying to find something
VERY comfortable and breathable.  Can Cotton Bubble Gauze fabric (found at
Fabric.com) be considered period?  12th century Irish.
> What do ya think??
> Caissene
>

Cotton was grown and used for clothes in Egypt and used throughout the
Mideast. More common than the more expensive linen. Also popular in other
Med countries such as Spain and Italy. There is much evidence of cotton from
the crusades. Solid colors were most common, black for white or embroidered
dresses. Also stripes popular in Spain.
I can give you the book, as soon as I get my books, I'm in process of
moving.
--
*Maitresse Aspasia *


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cotton, though not nearly as popular in Europe as it is today, is a bit
more period that most believe:

http://www.elizabethancostume.net/cibas/ciba64.html

Anthoinette

On 4/1/2011 1:52 PM, Sharon Palmer wrote:
>
> >100% Linen fabric will do what you want, and be a period option.
>
> Good fine linen is cooler, more comfortable, looks better, and wears
> better than cotton. Real linen, stay away from synthetics. Or from
> coarse, heavy "homespun" looking linen (which actually isn't all that
> period, the homespinners were better than that).
>
> If cotton is what you can find and afford, then use it. Just don't
> claim that it's period. But I'd look for plain gauze rather than
> bubble gauze, that texture is just too different than any period
> material I've seen.
>
> Ranvaig
>
> _



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Today is Drea Leed's birthday.

Happy Birthday to Drea!!!

She just released her work on the wardrobe warrants of Queen Elizabeth I, and
has published them in their entirety, in a searchable website!!

www.elizabethancostume.net/qewu.html

For me this is a boon. I have always wanted to know the full context of quotes
splattered across the handful of books on glove making from this manifest. Now
that I can see it I can visually see the cuffs embellishments as they are
described in the minuteness details. I am in heaven this day!! :D

♫
Chiara Francesca
(said in my best southern drawl) You want a silver lining to that sad, little,
cloud; come sit by me. :)

YES! That's the book I was waiting for. Another SCA myth exposed. (and yes,
pink is period too.) Thanks.


>
> Cotton, though not nearly as popular in Europe as it is today, is a bit
> more period that most believe:
>
> http://www.elizabethancostume.net/cibas/ciba64.html
>
> Anthoinette
>
--
*Maitresse Aspasia *


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Maitresse Aspasia, I look forward to that info from the European
perspective. Thank you for offering!

Here is what I have about Egypt in the Middle Ages from the Middle
Eastern perspective. According to S.D. Goitein in _A Mediterranean
Society, Vol 1_, examinations of trade records reveal that cotton was
available but it was quite rare. In Egypt in the 11th century, flax
trade and linen production out paced *every* other commodity in trade.
Wool production came in second among the textiles, and sericulture
products (silk) were still made in measurably higher quantities than cotton.

Marianne Erickson notes "It was not until the 13th century that the
cotton culture in Egypt actually reached a great level of importance,
and it is only in the last century that the long-fibred type of cotton
has been known, " in her book _Textiles in Egypt 300-1500 AD_.
(Personally, I don't know that I could identify a short-staple cotton).
This is supported by Golombek and Gervers in their article "Tiraz
Fabrics in the Royal Ontario Museum" where they note that until the
about 12th century, the western Islamic world only used cotton as
decorative threads (this would include Islamic Spain during this period,
but I don't know about Christian Spain).

Cotton seems to be frequently mixed with other fibers in extant tiraz
pieces (for example, held in the Royal Ontario Museum, The Museum of
Islamic Art in Cairo; and found in the Quseir al-Qadim excavations) and
those pieces are relatively small.

Yedida Stillman, in her dissertation indicated that many times the
ma'raqa, a sweat cap worn by men and women, was made of cotton according
to trousseau lists. I have not transcribed everything, but I have no
other mention of cotton *in period* from this work (her study of Lane's
travels during the 19th century mention cotton several times).

Perhaps a hint of the European connection comes from S.D. Goitein (also
from Vol 1), cotton goods are recorded as being imported from Tunisia
and India, but there is "next to nothing" recorded of the fibers being
manufactured into something. Perhaps it was re-exported?


I hope that helps,
Sayyeda al-Kaslaania

On 4/3/2011 9:29 AM, Bonnie Booker wrote:
> Cotton was grown and used for clothes in Egypt and used throughout the
> Mideast. More common than the more expensive linen. Also popular in other
> Med countries such as Spain and Italy. There is much evidence of cotton from
> the crusades. Solid colors were most common, black for white or embroidered
> dresses. Also stripes popular in Spain.
> I can give you the book, as soon as I get my books, I'm in process of
> moving.

>YES! That's the book I was waiting for. Another SCA myth exposed. (and yes,
>pink is period too.) Thanks.
>
>  > Cotton, though not nearly as popular in Europe as it is today, is a bit
>  > more period that most believe:

None of that makes bubble gauze period for Ireland, which is one the
least likely places in Europe to find cotton.  Like I said, use it
everyone else does, but don't say it's period.

Ranvaig

Does anyone have any tips for making panne bias tape? I need to make about 20
yards of the stuff and it is not turning out the way I planned. I am trying
ironing it to get the creases, but that is taking forever and I cant stand at an
ironing board for very long.

On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 7:17 PM, ookamikagegingetsu <
ookamikagegingetsu@...> wrote:

>
>
> Does anyone have any tips for making panne bias tape? I need to make about
> 20 yards of the stuff and it is not turning out the way I planned. I am
> trying ironing it to get the creases, but that is taking forever and I cant
> stand at an ironing board for very long.
>
>
I'm sorry, I have a quick question to ask for clarification. Do you mean
that you're trying to make bias tape from panne velvet?

Margaret Northwode


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Who in the world said that pink isn't period?!  If you dye white fabric red and
the color doesn't take right or fades you get pink.  It might not have been
called "pink" but it was there.

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, Bonnie Booker <Aspasia1@...> wrote:
>
> YES! That's the book I was waiting for. Another SCA myth exposed. (and yes,
> pink is period too.) Thanks.
>

Do you have a bias tape maker?  I believe that clover makes several types.  They
also sell a smaller iron to for this type of pressing.  If you are having
problem standing see if you can lower your ironing board and then sit in a
chair.  If your ironing board does not lower, you might want to get a new one
for about $10.00 at Wally's World.

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "ookamikagegingetsu" <ookamikagegingetsu@...>
wrote:
>
> Does anyone have any tips for making panne bias tape? I need to make about 20
yards of the stuff and it is not turning out the way I planned. I am trying
ironing it to get the creases, but that is taking forever and I cant stand at an
ironing board for very long.
>

On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 7:17 PM, ookamikagegingetsu <
ookamikagegingetsu@...> wrote:

>
>
> Does anyone have any tips for making panne bias tape? I need to make about
> 20 yards of the stuff and it is not turning out the way I planned. I am
> trying ironing it to get the creases, but that is taking forever and I cant
> stand at an ironing board for very long.
>
> It's really not a material suited for making bias tape.  Anything that is
wrinkle resistant is very hard to deliberately set creases into.  Can you
use something else?  A natural fiber would work best.

Petranella


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Are you talking panne velvet the stretchy stuff?  to make any kind of bias
tape you cut it on the bias and then use an iron to fold it if you want
creases.  I have a bias tape folder..but to be honest rarely use it.

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 12:13 AM, Salli Weston, Scott Theisen <
vlad.petranella@...> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 7:17 PM, ookamikagegingetsu <
> ookamikagegingetsu@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Does anyone have any tips for making panne bias tape? I need to make
> about
> > 20 yards of the stuff and it is not turning out the way I planned.

<TRIM PLEASE>

That was just the reigning myth back when I joined, until someone found a
manuscript with someone wearing pink next to someone wearing red. It has
become a running joke since among us old timers. Now we know it wasn't just
a faded red, they actually dyed for shades of pink. ;-)


>
> Who in the world said that pink isn't period?! If you dye white fabric red
> and the color doesn't take right or fades you get pink. It might not have
> been called "pink" but it was there.
>

--
*Maitresse Aspasia *


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

When I'm working with a fabric that won't hold it's shape well, I'll add a
little sizing/starch to it and it usually cooperates better. Remember, if you're
working with synthetic fabric not to set the iron too hot. Another method that
might work is a damp cloth to press it with although the panne still might
resist holding it's shape.
I've seen bias tapes for fleece and other stretchy fabrics, maybe that's your
best option.
Solveig

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "ookamikagegingetsu" <ookamikagegingetsu@...>
wrote:
>
> Does anyone have any tips for making panne bias tape? I need to make about 20
yards of the stuff and it is not turning out the way I planned. I am trying
ironing it to get the creases, but that is taking forever and I cant stand at an
ironing board for very long.
>

In regards to the "Cotton as Period" debate, I would like to
respectfully aim your attention to the following essay:
http://des.kyhm.com/cotton

Technically, at least according to this essay (and those who are far
more experienced in the SCA, and in the clothing arts, than I can be the
judge of the thoroughness or lack thereof of the author's research),
cotton - even cheap cotton - can be period....but ONLY dependent upon
the period of your particular persona.

For example, my persona is of the early 1500s, is a fairly
comfortably-well off widow of a Guildmaster with blood ties to minor
nobility.  According to this essay, as someone of the upper middle class
she might well have  had access to both the cheaper cotton of southern
Germany, and the more expensive cotton of Italy through her fellow
merchanting contacts.

However, I see no place in this essay that means it was easy to get in
places like England, the Scandinavian countries, or Russia (although I
would think with the Mongols so close that there might be some merchant
interaction there, but that is speculation) - which may explain why you
only hear of cotton being rare in such places.  Therefore for someone of
a different area than I, or an earlier period persona would not have
cotton as an option.

As I do not have the skill nor the experience to verify this Lady
Desamona Villani's research, I would respectfully request that someone
with that experience and skill can verify this for me.

Frankly, I find linen to be uncomfortable at best, and frankly
unbreathable and disappointing at worst.  I seem to have great luck
finding pure 100% cotton fabric that is both breathable and comfortable
(as well as more affordable than most linens).  But that may be my own
personal luck - YMMV.  I know that there are others that feel that linen
"flows" better and "molds to your body" better - but I seem to have the
opposite experience.

Lady Adelheide von Campe
(Cat Wagner)

ThHere was and SCA myth you couldn't use the color pink.  I believe it is due to
the fact that the word "pink", meaning the color, was either very late period or
just post period.  Prior to that, they used the word "flesh" (in the sense of
meat, not skintone) and "carnation".  Though these words probably include colors
we would think were darker than pink.

Rashid
--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Betti" <ladyoftheoldways@...> wrote:
>
> Who in the world said that pink isn't period?!  If you dye white fabric red
and the color doesn't take right or fades you get pink.  It might not have been
called "pink" but it was there.
>