My guess would be shot silk. With such silk, the warp threads are of one
color and very close together and the weft threads are of another color,
again very fine threads. It gives the fabric an iridescent effect. Shot
silk can still be found either in the internet or at a fabric store that
specialized in silks.

Enid


Hannah Hennen wrote:
>
> Does anyone have any idea what her over gown might be made of?
> http://oldpainting.blogspot.com/search/label/1514
> <http://oldpainting.blogspot.com/search/label/1514>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

i want to say velvet or silk also






________________________________
From: porcelenhanc <Darcellena@...>
To: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, March 8, 2010 2:02:07 PM
Subject: [SCA-Garb] Re: Last second nutzoid attempt before war...


Velvet or silk would be very nice.

Darcellena

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroup s.com, Hannah Hennen <kitsunetamamiko@ ...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone have any idea what her over gown might be made of?
> http://oldpainting. blogspot. com/search/ label/1514
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Even used as a serving gown? That's my goal for it anyway.

On Mar 8, 2010 7:03 PM, "Anna Nadine" <justusalivia@...> wrote:



i want to say velvet or silk also

________________________________
From: porcelenhanc <Darcellena@... <Darcellena%40wmis.net>>
To: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com <SCA-Garb%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, March 8, 2010 2:02:07 PM
Subject: [SCA-Garb] Re: Last second nutzoid attempt before war...



Velvet or silk would be very nice.

Darcellena

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroup s.com, Hannah Hennen <kitsunetamamiko@ ...>
wrote:
>
> Does anyone have a...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Does anyone have any idea what her over gown might be made of?
> http://oldpainting.blogspot.com/search/label/1514


It doesn't look like velvet or wool, so I'd suggest a heavy silk, perhaps.

Sinech.


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
An Fhirinne in aghaidh an tSaoil - The Truth Against the World


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4926 (20100308) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

I was under the impression that shot silk (usually found now days in shantung or
dupioni, but not much else), didn't really show up in clothing use till will
after the SCA cut-off dates. Whichever ones you use.

Or am I totally mis-remembering my facts? Reminders please? Input? History
lessons to confirm or deny?

Regards,

White Raven
--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, Marcia Wallace <marcia_m_wallace@...> wrote:
>
> My guess would be shot silk. With such silk, the warp threads are of one
> color and very close together and the weft threads are of another color,
> again very fine threads.

Shot silk is period back to at least 1350.  I know someone who did a master's
thesis on "changeante" (shot silk) in Italian art.  The shantung and dupioni
weaves are less likely to be exactly period, but would probably pass from 10
feet away.

I would use Titian as inspiration, but maybe not as documentation, unless
accompanied by a lot of other resources.  He did a lot of "exotica", biblical
themes, egyptian princesses, etc, dressed in contemporary Italian costume but
with lots of details that would have been exotic to his audience.  I think he
also did a lot of "undress" scenes that are not necessarily as many layers of
clothing as would have been actually worn, and probably not as laced up as would
have really bewen worn.

Rashid

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Bronwyn" <whiteraven89@...> wrote:
>
>
> I was under the impression that shot silk (usually found now days in shantung
or dupioni, but not much else), didn't really show up in clothing use till will
after the SCA cut-off dates. Whichever ones you use.
>
> Or am I totally mis-remembering my facts? Reminders please? Input? History
lessons to confirm or deny?
>
> Regards,
>
> White Raven
> --- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, Marcia Wallace <marcia_m_wallace@> wrote:
> >
> > My guess would be shot silk. With such silk, the warp threads are of one
> > color and very close together and the weft threads are of another color,
> > again very fine threads.
>

Tudor tailor mentions shot silk and I think so does several sites about the
Italian City States.

Sorry too late to look them up to be more than vague!

Cilean

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Bronwyn" <whiteraven89@...> wrote:
>
>
> I was under the impression that shot silk (usually found now days in shantung
or dupioni, but not much else), didn't really show up in clothing use till will
after the SCA cut-off dates. Whichever ones you use.
>
> Or am I totally mis-remembering my facts? Reminders please? Input? History
lessons to confirm or deny?
>
> Regards,
>
> White Raven
> --- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, Marcia Wallace <marcia_m_wallace@> wrote:
> >
> > My guess would be shot silk. With such silk, the warp threads are of one
> > color and very close together and the weft threads are of another color,
> > again very fine threads.
>

Okay so I did look it up!

The Costume Dabbler took the time to put up some names for different types of
fabrics used in the 1400 to 1500's

http://des.kyhm.com/fabric_types

Cangiante was the term for Shot Silk in Florence, Italy.


Also in the silk Industry in Venice also mentions Shot Silk.


Cilean

Also, check out Festive Attyre for more paintings during that time. It is handy
to compare colors of fabrics and accessories in similar gowns.

-----Original Message-----
From: Hannah Hennen <kitsunetamamiko@...>
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 1:39 PM
To: sca-garb <SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [SCA-Garb] Last second nutzoid attempt before war...


Does anyone have any idea what her over gown might be made of?
http://oldpainting.blogspot.com/search/label/1514

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Two sources to back up Rashid:

Page 98
of "Dressing Renaissance Florence: Families, Fortunes, and Fine Clothing" says:

"Florentine weavers also produced shot silk (cangiante) with a taffeta weave,
which achieved great popularity in the Renaissance due to its changeable color
with warp and weft threads of two different hues.... Fashionable  combinations
of warp/weft threads for shot silk were red and green and red and yellow...
taffia cangiante could be had for 15 soldi per braccio."
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=FU82w4wbrPIC

Rolf G. Kuehni 1996."Cangiante: A fabric and a coloristic device in the art of
the Renaissance" _Color Research & Application_ 21(5); 326-330.
says (p.327-8):
"In approximately 1316, Peter Aureol, the French Franciscan philosopher and
theologian, described "silk cloths which in different positions show different
colors." Shortly thereafter, in 1323, a merchandise brokerage list from Pisa in
Italy lists "tartarini
dicti cangia colore," or Tartar fabrics said to change
color.... The term "Tartar fabric", rather than referring to a fabric coming
specifically from the Tartar region of East Asia, at that time more likely was
meant to imply "an exotic fabric in the style of. . ."
....
"While there is little specifically known about the actual
use of such fabrics in clothing at any given time during the
Renaissance period, it is likely that depictions of these fabrics
originally were simply representative of clothing fashions
of the time."

~Asfridhr

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Charles" <unclrashid@...> wrote:
>
> Shot silk is period back to at least 1350.  I know someone who did a master's
thesis on "changeante" (shot silk) in Italian art.  The shantung and dupioni
weaves are less likely to be exactly period, but would probably pass from 10
feet away.
<<snip>>

I do 1515 Florentine, most of my research and  others' research show linen or
wool to be very common for the fitted kirtle which is probably the period
version of a bra and petticoat. Bustier women spend a bit more time making it
self supportive (not needing an under bodice). I made one from a linen-cotton
duvet cover from a thrift store. I've also used 2 curtain panels in another. I
use about 4 yds for the dress and another 1-3yds for sleeves. Perhaps you can
make removable sleeves, if not now than later. For online research, try Realm of
Venus and Katerina's Purple Files. There is one or two paintings on their
websites depicting a different fabric for the bodice. You may want to consider a
partlet to help prevent bodice burn, even in winter time.
I think moda a firenze (or maybe dressing renaissance Florence)mentions using
silk broadcloth, but I don't know where to acquire that. Nor do I know what wool
broadcloth is. Modern silks don't really work for the bodice unless you decide
to bone it. The Italians had curved fronts as opposed to the Tudor gowns. You
could try plastic zip ties from home depot.
I would use linen or wool. Line it with linen. Some suggest lining the skirt,
but I choose not to.

Lady Caterina Fortuna
AnTir

-----Original Message-----
From: Hannah Hennen <kitsunetamamiko@...>
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 1:39 PM
To: sca-garb <SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [SCA-Garb] Last second nutzoid attempt before war...


Does anyone have any idea what her over gown might be made of?
http://oldpainting.blogspot.com/search/label/1514

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It's pretty easy to fine cross-woven, or shot, silk in taffeta today as
well. Check boutique fabric stores.

The creation of shot silk is simply weaving with a different color from
the warp.

Samia

On 3/8/2010 8:03 PM, Bronwyn wrote:
>
> I was under the impression that shot silk (usually found now days in shantung
or dupioni, but not much else), didn't really show up in clothing use till will
after the SCA cut-off dates. Whichever ones you use.
>

> Regards,
>
> White Raven

If you're going to use the gown as a serving gown, you wouldn't want to
make it from silk or velvet. You would want to make it from something
washable, like linen (prewashed of course), something you can run
through the washing machine without worry. Personally, it depends on how
historically accurate you want to make the garment. Cotton or even
cotton-poly blend are great because I hate ironing garb. Done it for
decades and it always sucks.

Enid

Hannah Hennen wrote:
>
>
> Even used as a serving gown? That's my goal for it anyway.
>
> On Mar 8, 2010 7:03 PM, "Anna Nadine" <justusalivia@...
> <mailto:justusalivia%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
> i want to say velvet or silk also
>
>
>
>

Shot silk was originally made in silk taffeta, densely woven and very
shiny. This was found medievally though little is written about the
wording "shot silk", which seems to be a more modern term.

Enid


Bronwyn wrote:
>
>
>
> I was under the impression that shot silk (usually found now days in
> shantung or dupioni, but not much else), didn't really show up in
> clothing use till will after the SCA cut-off dates. Whichever ones you
> use.
>
> Or am I totally mis-remembering my facts? Reminders please? Input?
> History lessons to confirm or deny?
>
> Regards,
>

If you did want to use velvet there are some very nice 100% cotton
velvets that are machine washable.

On 09/03/2010 12:37 PM, Marcia Wallace wrote:
>
> If you're going to use the gown as a serving gown, you wouldn't want to
> make it from silk or velvet. You would want to make it from something
> washable, like linen (prewashed of course), something you can run
> through the washing machine without worry. Personally, it depends on how
> historically accurate you want to make the garment. Cotton or even
> cotton-poly blend are great because I hate ironing garb. Done it for
> decades and it always sucks.
>
> Enid
>
> Hannah Hennen wrote:
> >
> >
> > Even used as a serving gown? That's my goal for it anyway.
> >
> > On Mar 8, 2010 7:03 PM, "Anna Nadine" <justusalivia@...
> <mailto:justusalivia%40yahoo.com>
> > <mailto:justusalivia%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
> >
> > i want to say velvet or silk also
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm not able to help with any suggestions for that overgown, but oh my.how I
would love to make that chemise!  I can't even begin to guess where to start
with it as there is so much that is unclear in the painting.  The neckline
edge and the sleeves have me stalled right up front.  Fabric would be easy,
but after that, I guess I'm going to have to let this stew for a while.



Laurie T.

Phoenix



   _____

From: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Hannah Hennen
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:39 PM
To: sca-garb
Subject: [SCA-Garb] Last second nutzoid attempt before war...





Does anyone have any idea what her over gown might be made of?
http://oldpainting. <http://oldpainting.blogspot.com/search/label/1514>
blogspot.com/search/label/1514

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi all,

I need a couple patterns for an easy pattern for a male & female cotehardie..

Any ideas anyone..

I know how to sew, actually I am looking for easy to make  & wear garb for
Pennsic and I really like the way these look.

Normally I go with a chemise at night, a skirt & bodice during the day and a
tudor gown at night but if there is ways of dressing these up without all the
frills then I am in...

Thanks!

I'm not sure what you consider easy, but on this site
http://www.caitlinsclothing.com/costuming2.html she has instructions for
both man's and woman's cotehardies. I've used the Drafted pattern for the
woman's cotehardie and (having never done a drafted pattern before) was able
to complete it in a day. The only issue I had was a typo in the
instructions. When dividing any measurement that circles the body, it says
"divide by 2" but it should be "divide by 4".

I haven't tried to make the man's cotehardie so I'm not sure how easy that
one is, but for a novice I found the woman's not bad at all. It helped that
I had a full roll of butcher paper to work with.

Nycaise

On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 8:05 AM, Domionque <ldykelilalockley@...>wrote:

>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I need a couple patterns for an easy pattern for a male & female
> cotehardie..
>
> Any ideas anyone..
>
> I know how to sew, actually I am looking for easy to make & wear garb for
> Pennsic and I really like the way these look.
>
> Normally I go with a chemise at night, a skirt & bodice during the day and
> a tudor gown at night but if there is ways of dressing these up without all
> the frills then I am in...
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Is there a "field guide to garb" online?  I'm looking for something to show
newbies.  Ideally, it would have good drawings or pictures, captioned with
culture and time period (and preferably clothing names), i.e., "Viking woman c.
800, wearing an apron dress and T-Tunic", "English Tudor king c. 1530, wearing a
doublet, jerkin, hosen, etc."

I want to be able to give them the vocabulary to do more research on their own,
or come to one of us with something more than "I want to make a gown like that
green one that lady (dunno her name) was wearing at the last event."

I've found a lot of specialized websites, but nothing that's a good overview of
the SCA's timeperiods and cultures.

-Kat Ferneley

It is most likely a smocked chemise.  I think there is another term used for
this type of smocking, something like "pleatwork embroidery" but I'm not sure if
I'm remebering the correct term.  I just googled it, and that is the term I was
thinking of, but the website seems to have gone awol.

Rashid

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Taylor" <costumeraz1@...> wrote:
>
> I'm not able to help with any suggestions for that overgown, but oh my.how I
> would love to make that chemise!  I can't even begin to guess where to start
> with it as there is so much that is unclear in the painting.  The neckline
> edge and the sleeves have me stalled right up front.  Fabric would be easy,
> but after that, I guess I'm going to have to let this stew for a while.
>
>
>
> Laurie T.
>
> Phoenix
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Hannah Hennen
> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:39 PM
> To: sca-garb
> Subject: [SCA-Garb] Last second nutzoid attempt before war...
>
>
>
>
>
> Does anyone have any idea what her over gown might be made of?
> http://oldpainting. <http://oldpainting.blogspot.com/search/label/1514>
> blogspot.com/search/label/1514
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Do a search on "timeline" and "costume history" and you may find something.  But
be aware that if you get the one by John Peacock, it's dreadful.  He draws them
on the bodies of 7 foot tall supermodels in "catwalk" posture, and in my
opinion, how the garb causes each period to have it's own proportions and
posture is as important as necklines and hemlines.

Rashid

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Crazy Cat Lady" <brockenspectre@...> wrote:
>
> Is there a "field guide to garb" online?  I'm looking for something to show
newbies.  Ideally, it would have good drawings or pictures, captioned with
culture and time period (and preferably clothing names), i.e., "Viking woman c.
800, wearing an apron dress and T-Tunic", "English Tudor king c. 1530, wearing a
doublet, jerkin, hosen, etc."
>
> I want to be able to give them the vocabulary to do more research on their
own, or come to one of us with something more than "I want to make a gown like
that green one that lady (dunno her name) was wearing at the last event."
>
> I've found a lot of specialized websites, but nothing that's a good overview
of the SCA's timeperiods and cultures.
>
> -Kat Ferneley
>

This site might be a starting point to use.
http://www.costumes.org/history/100pages/timelinepages/timeline.htm

Nycaise

On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 9:58 AM, Crazy Cat Lady <brockenspectre@...>wrote:

>
>
> Is there a "field guide to garb" online? I'm looking for something to show
> newbies. Ideally, it would have good drawings or pictures, captioned with
> culture and time period (and preferably clothing names), i.e., "Viking woman
> c. 800, wearing an apron dress and T-Tunic", "English Tudor king c. 1530,
> wearing a doublet, jerkin, hosen, etc."
>
> I want to be able to give them the vocabulary to do more research on their
> own, or come to one of us with something more than "I want to make a gown
> like that green one that lady (dunno her name) was wearing at the last
> event."
>
> I've found a lot of specialized websites, but nothing that's a good
> overview of the SCA's timeperiods and cultures.
>
> -Kat Ferneley
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm not sure what the term is for this technique, but pleatwork
embroidery works as well as any. From what I can see, the chemise has
very small pleats at the neckline that are sewn down in white thread
with a decorative stitch. The top of the chemise seems to be a blanket
stitch, which rides along the top of the neckline giving it a bit of a
ruffled appearance. It's not hard to do, I've done it before, but it is
time consuming work.

Enid


Charles wrote:
>
>
> It is most likely a smocked chemise. I think there is another term
> used for this type of smocking, something like "pleatwork embroidery"
> but I'm not sure if I'm remebering the correct term. I just googled
> it, and that is the term I was thinking of, but the website seems to
> have gone awol.
>
> Rashid
>

Well, I don't doubt that this would be a time-consuming piece to recreate,
but if I have or can find the right fabric, I think that for me it would be
well worth it.  It is just such a lovely chemise.



Laurie



   _____

From: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Marcia Wallace
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 10:40 AM
To: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [SCA-Garb] Re: Last second nutzoid attempt before war...the
CHEMISE!





I'm not sure what the term is for this technique, but pleatwork
embroidery works as well as any. From what I can see, the chemise has
very small pleats at the neckline that are sewn down in white thread
with a decorative stitch. The top of the chemise seems to be a blanket
stitch, which rides along the top of the neckline giving it a bit of a
ruffled appearance. It's not hard to do, I've done it before, but it is
time consuming work.

Enid

Charles wrote:
>
>
> It is most likely a smocked chemise. I think there is another term
> used for this type of smocking, something like "pleatwork embroidery"
> but I'm not sure if I'm remebering the correct term. I just googled
> it, and that is the term I was thinking of, but the website seems to
> have gone awol.
>
> Rashid
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I found this on the costumes.org site under the timeline and since I am
unfamiliar with that site (and how accurate it is) and unfamiliar with
whatever sources it is using I thought I would throw the question about this
picture out here:
http://www.costumes.org/history/greatwomen/greatwomenlauedenoyes.jpg

Is this an accurate piece of garb? Has anyone seen this picture before? If
it isn't accurate, is it close to something that is?

Thanks!

Nycaise


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hello... i am currently working on a cotehadie with my colors....
currently as in im in the sewing room sewing on it right now.....
anyways i have seen a lot with side lace up and i liked that idea... i
have also seen many that are open on the skirt..... how accurate/period
is this???? or should i just sew the side up far enough that i can still
get it on???????

thanks

anabella



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hello... i am currently working on a cotehadie with my colors.... currently as
in im in the sewing room sewing on it right now..... anyways i have seen a lot
with side lace up and i liked that idea... i have also seen many that are open
on the skirt..... how accurate/period is this???? or should i just sew the side
up far enough that i can still get it on???????

thanks

anabella

M'lady; I would be interested in seeing what images of cotehardies (or, to
make Rashid happy- gothic fitted dreses lol) you have showing them laced up
the sides. I have not found any - I just re-did an internet search and could
find no such images.  As for open on the skirt, is it possible that whatever
image you are looking at might be showing a lady in a state of undress, with
her overgown unlaced or unbuttoned to reveal the undergown?

If you can, I'd suggest taking a look at the MoL "Textiles and Clothing
1150-1450" for the work done on textiles for the 14th century, as well as
Robin Netherton's "The Gothic Fitted Dress."  Really cool images of dead
people's cotehardies are available in the museum attached to the Cathedral
of St. Denis - the online images are quite beautiful - the sarcophagi and
statuary are gorgeous and can help give you more of a feel for how
cotehardies are put together.

Alysoun
Member, 14thc geeksquad

On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 3:19 PM, anabella_de_lancret <justusalivia@...
> wrote:

>
>
> hello... i am currently working on a cotehadie with my colors.... currently
> as in im in the sewing room sewing on it right now..... anyways i have seen
> a lot with side lace up and i liked that idea... i have also seen many that
> are open on the skirt..... how accurate/period is this???? or should i just
> sew the side up far enough that i can still get it on???????
>
> thanks
>
> anabella
>
>
>



--
"Courage is the virtue of deeds... courtesy is the virtue of language."
Baron Giovanni di Fiamma


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, I am wondering if the side-laced examples that Anabella referred to
were in fact 12th century laced bliauts. And an overskirt that opens in
front -- as opposed to an overskirt with a shorter hem than its underskirt
-- is later than the 14th century.

Caitlin

-----Original Message-----
From: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Vicky Eisenstadt
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 12:57 PM
To: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [SCA-Garb] Cotehardie

M'lady; I would be interested in seeing what images of cotehardies (or, to
make Rashid happy- gothic fitted dreses lol) you have showing them laced up
the sides. I have not found any - I just re-did an internet search and could
find no such images.  As for open on the skirt, is it possible that whatever
image you are looking at might be showing a lady in a state of undress, with
her overgown unlaced or unbuttoned to reveal the undergown?

Nycaise,

The dress in the picture shows great details of both late period German
and Flemish gowns.  I have never seen that particular cuff detail, but
it may well be authentic.

Anthoinette

On 10/03/2010 2:14 PM, JustPlainKitty . wrote:
>
> I found this on the costumes.org site under the timeline and since I am
> unfamiliar with that site (and how accurate it is) and unfamiliar with
> whatever sources it is using I thought I would throw the question
> about this
> picture out here:
> http://www.costumes.org/history/greatwomen/greatwomenlauedenoyes.jpg
> <http://www.costumes.org/history/greatwomen/greatwomenlauedenoyes.jpg>
>
> Is this an accurate piece of garb? Has anyone seen this picture before? If
> it isn't accurate, is it close to something that is?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Nycaise
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]