Hi Nadine,

If I'm understanding what punch-needle embroidery is, then it's like
the diagram in these instructions:
http://reviews.ebay.com.au/Basic-Instructions-for-Punch-Needle-Embroidery_W0QQug\
idZ10000000001355678
Where you have one side with flat, solid stitches, and the other is
loopy, correct?

Firstly, I'm pretty sure punch-needle embroidery wasn't done by
Viking-age women. ("Needlework Through History" by Catherine Amoroso
Leslie mentions medieval use, but gives no real examples or firm dates
that I would trust. See: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=GezzyLFNSgMC)

With that said, there are certainly extant embroideries that would
look like the back of a punchneedle piece. A filling stitch used on
embroideries like the Bayeux tapestry, called 'laid and couched' work
  looks (to me at least) similar.
See:
http://www.sca.org.au/broiderers/newsletters/maycoronet99.htm#couching

As for the loopy look on the front of a punchneedle embroidery, if you
like that sort of loopy appearance, the closest thing I can think of
is chain stitch, like from the Mammen textiles, or a silk pouch from
York. (see: http://www.jomsb.org/Sunnifa/embroidery/embroidery.htm)

Another 'loopy' embroidery stitch is blanket stitch, like that found
on the Thorsbjerg tunic, but that's really a bit too early to be
considered a Viking-age embroidery stitch. But, thankfully there is
also some blanket-stitched textiles found from London.
http://www.macdas.org/DAtunicpattern.pdf

So, in short, punchneedle work is unlikely to be a type of embroidery
or decoration used in the Viking age, but there are alternatives that
look sort of similar.

As for if, what and where you would be embroidering an apron dress, is
another issue entirely, since off the top of my head the only
embroidered decoration I can think of on an apron dress layer is
appliqued braid covering a dart, and the hem was finished with
herringbone stitch.
(See:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/shelagh.lewins/shelagh/viking_textiles/hedeby_apron\
/hedeby_apron.htm)

I hope tis information helps, if you have any more questions may I
recommend the Norsefolk_2 Yahoo Group. At the very least their
archives would have plenty of information about decorating apron dresses.

Kind regards,
~Asfridhr
--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Nadine" <bdmaja@...> wrote:
>
> HELP, since everyone in my village uses a Viking apron dress. I wonder
> if I could add punch needle around the edges?
>
> Thanks in advance
> Nadine
> Columbia Gorge
>

Thank you so very much Asfridhr for all the information. Yes, this is
the punch needle I was talking about. Now that I know I will not use
it. I am joining the Norse group. the "chain stitch" you are talking
about is called "tambour work" I know that work and you can see it on
you tube.
Again thank you so very much,
Nadine

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Nadine" <bdmaja@...> wrote:
<<<snip>>> the "chain stitch" you are talking
> about is called "tambour work" I know that work and you can see it on
> you tube.
<<<snip>>>

That doesn't seem likely.  The chain stitch you'd see in period would
have been done with needles making a chain stitch.
Both tambour and needle-made chain stitch appear identical at a
glance, but in fact are not.
Tambour work employs a drum head-looking frame (hence "tambor" or
"tambour," meaning drum) secured to a table or other stand (to leave
both of the needleworker's hands free) and a metal hook embedded in a
wooden handle, which is what I have long understood tambour work to
be.  Tambour work *does* make a chain stitch on the surface of the
fabric, but achieves that end with a different technique:
In executing tambour work, the needleworker has both hands free; the
hand on the upper surface of the work manages the hook; the hand below
the work loops the thread or yard onto the hook so the loop made below
the surface can be pulled to the surface.
In needle-worked chain stitch, which may also employ a frame which
leaves both of the needleworker's hands free, the loop is created on
the surface as the needle goes downward, and is caught when the point
of the needle re-emerges on the surface.
The back of tambour work shows continuous stitches, much like the
wrong side of a lock-stitched machine sewn seam does, or, a better
example, those chain-stitched closures on big bags of pet food or
produce such as onions, potatoes, or oranges.
Needle-made chain stitch has separate stitches making a 'broken' line
on the back.

All of this having been said, I'm not an expert in matters
Norse/Viking.  Does anyone have actual documentation for Vikings
having learned and having employed *tambour* technique, specifically?

Yseult the Gentle

"All of this having been said, I'm not an expert in matters
Norse/Viking. Does anyone have actual documentation for Vikings
having learned and having employed *tambour* technique, specifically?

"Yseult the Gentle"

No. Grave finds do not include the tools for other embroidery work using
such tools. So far as grave finds and other records indicate, it was
needle and thread. I'm no expert, but I don't know that frames were used
then. I can't remember off the top of my head.

I'm afraid the only nifty thing that the Norse came up with that even
comes close to embroidery, being a fiber art, is the warp-weighted loom
and naalbinding.

Nadine I would suggest using a simple needle and thread for authenticity
and also for efficiency of thread use. A handsewn chain stitch takes a
bit less thread than either tambour or punch needle. If your hands won't
tolerate the work, may I suggest an idea that predates the Norse: trade
and barter?

Margaret Northwode

Nadine asked about using punch needle embroidery on a Norse apron
dress.  Asfridhr recommended several alternatives that would be more
authentic to the period, among them chain stitching.

Nadine commented,
> the "chain stitch" you are talking about is called "tambour work"

No, the "chain stitch" Asfridhr is talking about is chain stitch.  It
has been in use at least since the 7th century
<http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6948/bathilde.html>, and
requires no equipment but a needle and thread.  It's just about the
simplest embroidery stitch there is; I've taught it to 5-year-olds at
events.

There are two ways to do the stitch--the rocking method and the
stabbing method.  The STITCH with the Embroiderers' Guild site has
instructions for the former
<http://embroiderersguild.com/stitch/stitches/chain.html> and the Coats
Crafts site for the latter
<http://www.coatscrafts.co.uk/Crafts/Needlecrafts/Howtos/
chain+stitch.htm>.   I find rocking works better with work in the hand
(which is probably how a Norsewoman of the Viking Age would've done it)
and stabbing works better if the fabric is stretched on a frame.


Coblaith Mhuimhneach
Barony of Bryn Gwlad
Kingdom of Ansteorra
<mailto:Coblaith@...>

I will concur with Margaret-- from what I've read over the last, um,
thirty years, tambour work (as defined by its distinctive wrong side)
didn't appear in Western Europe until the very late 16th century and
didn't hit its heyday until the 19th.

ciorstan

On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 8:22 AM, Heather/Margaret
<margaret.northwode@...> wrote:

> No. Grave finds do not include the tools for other embroidery work using
> such tools. So far as grave finds and other records indicate, it was
> needle and thread. I'm no expert, but I don't know that frames were used
> then. I can't remember off the top of my head.

One, can someone please give me the link to Drea's website? the dm.net
doesn't work anymore.

Two, Does anyone know of any resources for things other than chain,
pearls, and gems being used to make girdles, specifically of the Tudor
period?

Thanks in advance for all of your help!

Lady Catherine Vallemont

http://www.elizabethancostume.net/

Jag

   _____

From: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of tigurgurl03
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 3:35 AM
To: SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SCA-Garb] Two questions



One, can someone please give me the link to Drea's website? the dm.net
doesn't work anymore.

Two, Does anyone know of any resources for things other than chain,
pearls, and gems being used to make girdles, specifically of the Tudor
period?

Thanks in advance for all of your help!

Lady Catherine Vallemont






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Two, Does anyone know of any resources for things other than chain,
pearls, and gems being used to make girdles, specifically of the Tudor
period?

Cloth. De Heere and Holbein sketches seem to indicate a large amount of
cloth belts. So do effigy statues. A simple long, cloth tube perhaps
with fringe on the end and knotted, tied lowish, with a loop pointed
upwards.

For Elizabethan (non-pendant) girdles, you might look into a leather
base onto which you mount jewels/pearls/pretties. Precious cloth is
another possibility, here.

Margaret Northwode

Regarding an older "Alden" brand sewing machine circa...1940's, we're
guessing; we think the model number is 83124.

Can someone tell me where online I can find the Smithsonian's sewing
machine manual files?   A URL would be *great.*

TIA,
Yseult the Gentle

I couldn't find anything in the Smithsonian or the US patent office
but I did find this:


http://directory.consumeronly.com/landing.aspx?
sltcid=26460&slk=sewing+machine+manuals&akwd=download%20sewing%
20machine%20manual&uq=Sewing%20Machine%20Manual%
20Download&cid=681113981&kwid=614170525&feed=2825&nid=4

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "borderlands15213"
<borderlands15213@...> wrote:
>
> Regarding an older "Alden" brand sewing machine circa...1940's,
we're
> guessing; we think the model number is 83124.
>
> Can someone tell me where online I can find the Smithsonian's sewing
> machine manual files?   A URL would be *great.*
>
> TIA,
> Yseult the Gentle
>

Wow.  Thank you!!!

Yseult the Gentle

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "deedydavis" <deedydavis@...> wrote:
>
> I couldn't find anything in the Smithsonian or the US patent office
> but I did find this:
>
>
><<snipped>>

--- it's elizabethancostume.net




In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "tigurgurl03" <catherinevalmont85@...>
wrote:





>
> One, can someone please give me the link to Drea's website? the
dm.net
> doesn't work anymore.
>
> Two, Does anyone know of any resources for things other than chain,
> pearls, and gems being used to make girdles, specifically of the
Tudor
> period?
>
> Thanks in advance for all of your help!
>
> Lady Catherine Vallemont
>

Where can one find Persian female shoes?


Tamara

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Dianne" <cat_herder@...> wrote:
>
> Where can one find Persian female shoes?
>

I'm going to assume that you mean 15th or 16th century shoes, since
that is the period most commonly done for the SCA.

Don't get those hideous Mongol boots with the toes that curl up and
back like cheesy elf shoes.  Someone sells them at Pennsic, and I
don't think they are even period for Mongol personas.  I was at a
recent even where somebody was wearing them and I noticed that they
are so big and bulky, when seen from behind, that they make the
wearers look like they have elephantiasis of the ankles. Or
lymphedema if you are not up on your tropical diseases.

The standard 14th century (european) slipper-like shoes with slightly
pointed toes look enough like what I see in the paintings to pass
pretty well.  I'm sure they can be found in conjunction with the
better internet vendors who sell the more authentic cottes and 14th
century garb.

You can also sometimes find embroidered slippers, mules and scuffs
that don't look to bad in Indian neighborhoods and from the internet,
though I have a feeling the sizes are not that accurate.

Rashid

I was browsing through one of my garb books and I came across the
cyclas.  I have decided that I want to attempt to make one. I am still
new to sewing, and drafting a pattern from a picture still isn't a
strong point for me yet.  Does anyone have a pattern already drawn out
that they wouldn't mind sharing?

Also, while browsing through the old posts here, I can across a really
neat site with images from the Manesse Codex (I think that's right..).
  One image jumped out at me.  The link is below.

http://www.tempora-nostra.de/tempora-nostra/manesse.php?id=203&tfl=26

My question concerns what looks to be buttons (white dots) on the
woman's sleeves of the undertunic and at the neckline of the cycla.
Am I seeing this correctly?

One last question... Some images the women are holding the cycla in
their hand (like the lady in the image above); some I can't tell if
the women are holding up the cycla or if it's tucked into a belt or
what...

Any information would be of great help! Thanks in advance!

Lady Broinninn inghean Aindriasa

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Megan Barnes" <kitty4wolves@...>
wrote:
>
> I was browsing through one of my garb books and I came across the
> cyclas.  I have decided that I want to attempt to make one. I am
still
> new to sewing, and drafting a pattern from a picture still isn't a
> strong point for me yet.  Does anyone have a pattern already drawn
out
> that they wouldn't mind sharing?

Most basic pattern:

http://www.adamastorshire.co.za/chronicler/stormtidings/archive/garb/s
axongarb.html

see diagram 1 (tunic) and leave off the sleeves

>
> http://www.tempora-nostra.de/tempora-nostra/manesse.php?
id=203&tfl=26
>
> My question concerns what looks to be buttons (white dots) on the
> woman's sleeves of the undertunic and at the neckline of the cycla.
> Am I seeing this correctly?

I would assume they are buttons.  White could possibly be meant to
represent silver.  They would probably be round, bead-like buttons,
though sometimes they have small shanks that make them look like buds
or berries.
>
> One last question... Some images the women are holding the cycla in
> their hand (like the lady in the image above); some I can't tell if
> the women are holding up the cycla or if it's tucked into a belt or
> what...

Probably some of both, though I would think tucking it into the belt
is more of a working-class practicality than a fashion statment.

Rashid

I've been a longtime lurker, too indecisive to settle on a persona...
but I think I'm getting there!  I'm drawn towards the Savoy region of
current era France and north Italy (lots of happy holidays!) but not
yet settled on a time period.

I'm finding it hard though to get hold of information / references on
life, garb and customs from the region. Can anybody point me in the
direction of useful starters? With thanks in advance for patience,
forgiveness for cross-posting to spread the net wider, and for any
advice - can anyone help?!

gratefully,
fran

Where can one find Persian female shoes?

---I'm going to assume... 15th or 16th century... since... period
most commonly done for the SCA.

That is a bad assumption since we cover such an extensive historical
time frame.

---Don't get those hideous Mongol boots...

If you like them and suits your persona, why not? Are they practical
for your area? Now that would be a better question.

---The standard 14th century (european) slipper-like shoes with
slightly pointed toes...

This would be due to european influence in the region, however there
are other styles of shoes worn by the regional people, all depends
in the period of time and where, an example of this would be the
introduction of roman-greek sandals during the Campaings of
Alexander the Great.

When you look for foot wear remember, are you looking for authentic?
Are you looking for something that looks like the real thing but
would be practical for your region? Are these for indoor, outdoor or
both?

Just my two yen.

Humbly,
Nakagawa Sukeie

"To aska question may be a moments' shame,
But not to ask and remain ignorant is a life long shame."

My Dear Lords and Ladies,

With such an assemblege of talent, I just know one of you will have an
answer.  I need a recommendation for a type or brand of white floss or
embroidery thread that is stain resistant; or, failing that, a floss/thread
that won't permanently suck up wine stains.

I've been inspired to try embroidery.  I'm planning to make a couple of
"purificators" for my church.  Purificators are used for wiping the chalice
during the communion service, therefore coming into contact with red wine on
a regular basis.  According to the catalog that our altar guild orders from,
purificators are a piece of linen 12 inches square with an embroidered cross
(for sale at more than $25 EACH, the Horror!).  It appears that a variety of
cross styles can be used.  All the crosses are white on our current cloths,
but I did see other colors for sale.  My intention is to make these squares
and try out a variety of white crosses.  I get to practice my hand-sewing
and make a project that I don't have to end up storing.  My church saves a
little money.  If this all goes well, I may attempt to include the teen
group in the project.

The 3.5 oz. white linen for sale at www.fabrics-store.com is acceptable,
according to our resident experts.  All I need is a suggestion for what sort
of floss or thread to use.  Although the LEMs are instructed to use the
linen on the purificator away from the embroidery, it would be nice to have
embroidery that doesn't latch onto a stain forever.  Shrinkage shouldn't be
a terrible problem as these altar linens are usually hand washed, then
ironed within an inch of their lives.

Feel free to contact me off list (at janielee at cox dot com), unless you
have a favorite brand and/or vendor you'd like everyone to know about.

Many, many thanks,

Lady Gwendolyn Fitch
(Janie B)

--Like T-shirts?  Check out www.cameesa.com !--

Greetings!

To forgo the details, I have an event at the end of March and I will
be 31 weeks pregnant.  My persona is a Jew from "Inquisition Era
Spain" but I have garb ranging from late 11th-cen through
high-Elizabethan, just because I like different styles.  :p  My house
colors are yellow, red and black.

I have seen suggestions for making an Elizabethan loose gown (a la
Janet Arnold), but am wondering what else is out there.  What do you
know that the ladies in the family way done?  What portraits have you
seen?  I've seen the one of the gal in the green houppelande, which
could be feasible.

Also, I'd like this outfit to be nursing-friendly, so any tips and
tricks along that line would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance!
   Chaya-Simcha bat Yonah Almería

P.S.  I'm a very little lady, so I'm likely to have a huge bump.

Greetings All,

Could anyone share some information about how I can learn more about
the details of 14th century French garb, (1300-1370 is fine). I want to
get a feeling for the male dress of the day, most especially the little
details that set them apart from other regions and fashions.

I understand that there was no France at this time. And, I have read
the past posts til my eyes were glazed.

Some of the older posts spoke of cotes. Which I take to be a fancy
overtunic that is form fitting, basically. But I thought form fitting
clothes didn't come into favor til the 15th century, something like a
hundred years later. Right?

I paid attention to my history in school and was interested enough to
study it a bit on my own before my introduction to the SCA, and I've
always understood that the french were the bright center of the
medieval world when it came to chivalry and fashion. Yet, I can find so
very little evidence of this heritage on the web and at events. Why is
this? Am I just looking in the wrong places?

I beg the indulgence of all my peers English, Polish, Russ, Spanish,
and others, too numerous to list. I intend no insult to your own
influences to fashion and art.
Thank You,

Cuvien

Milord and I are on a cleaning spree- and one of the most disorganized
places in the house is our sewing room (yes, OUR sewing room!)  We
both like late-period garb (Tudor & Elizabethan in particular), which
means a lot of fabric.  Bolts and bolts of it. (There was this sale...)

Given that the sewing room is approx. 12'x12', with a wide but shallow
closet, what would you recommend for fabric/thread/notion storage?
Most "how to organize your sewing room" articles I've found imply that
you have only a few yards of fabric in your stash...

Thank you,
Kat Ferneley

I concur with Rashid.  The openings on the sides of a cyclas can be almost as
high as sleeve openings or as low as the hips.  The difference between the
cyclas and a sideless surcoat is that the cyclas is rectangular or A-line
whereas a sideless surcoat has a significant flare from the hips outward.  The
cyclas also does not always have a closed seam all the way down the side.   The
men's garment (as in the illustration) is slit in the front and back for riding
horseback.  This essentially (and evolved from) the garment worn by crusaders.

One thing I have noted is that they seem to be gathered to a band at the
neckline.  OTOH, maybe not. I made one out of heavy fabric (wool blanketing) and
it did not turn out very well.  My next one is going to be in lightweight wool
and I plan to line it in lightweight cotton or contemporary lining fabric.

The dots are buttons.  The ones on the sleeves are functional; the ones on the
gown/cyclas are thought to not be functional but rather a decorative display of
a luxury item.  There are usually about six of them, occasionally only three.

Jehanne

€

I was looking up the infomation posted about the basic pattern at the following
website provided but the system states that it is not found?  I was just
wondering if you had another site?

http://www.adamasto rshire.co. za/chronicler/ stormtidings/ archive/garb/ s
axongarb.html


halla




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It seems that Yahoo!groups wasn't sending to us mods some posts for the
group from folks on moderated status. Some of these date from the end of
December and we're not really sure how this happened - in fact I recall
approving a couple that were still listed this morning as pending! At
any rate we've cleared it out now and hope this helps to unclog the tubes.

Your moderators

Just an ideal could you soak the floss in  strain treatment  spray liq. like
what  we use on the sofa etc.

Serving HIm,
Helen

Joshua  24:15
**************New year...new news.  Be the first to know what is making
headlines. (http://www.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000026)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

With respect, there was definitely a France in the 14th century.  The
French national identity was formed back....I believe as early as the
Merovingians (pre - revolt of the seneschal) although I could be
wrong.  Point being, there was at least 500 years of a France by the
14th century, although certainly the barons/dukes of the regions had a
great deal of power and influence - but, they were still barons and
dukes of *France*.  Also, it is a common misconception that clothing
was not form-fitting until the 15th century.  The easiest examples I
can think of are the bliaut of the 12th century and the cotehardie of
the 14th, which are *very* formfitting.  So much so that my bowflex
weeps for the days of the toga...

Alysoun Jeuneterre
Trimaris, or as I refer to it, Provence, France, 1347



On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 12:25 AM, cuvien1438 <cuvien1438@...> wrote:
> Greetings All,
>
> Could anyone share some information about how I can learn more about
> the details of 14th century French garb, (1300-1370 is fine). I want to
> get a feeling for the male dress of the day, most especially the little
> details that set them apart from other regions and fashions.
>
> I understand that there was no France at this time. And, I have read
> the past posts til my eyes were glazed.
>
> Some of the older posts spoke of cotes. Which I take to be a fancy
> overtunic that is form fitting, basically. But I thought form fitting
> clothes didn't come into favor til the 15th century, something like a
> hundred years later. Right?
>
>

[Snippage]

--
For all those whose cares have been our concern; the work goes on, the
cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream...shall never die.
Sen. E.M. Kennedy, 1980

Chaya-Simcha bat Yonah Almería wrote:
> . . .I'd like this outfit to be nursing-friendly, so any tips and
> tricks along that line would be much appreciated.

Annora le Spindler's "What Nursing Mothers Wore: Period Options for
Nursing Garb" <http://anplica.net/annora/nursing.html> includes a
number of late-period images, grouped by the type of nursing
accommodation they show, and links to a few other resources on the
topic.

"Artwork of Nursing Mothers" <http://4sefa.tripod.com/nursing.htm> and
the maternity and nursing wear links at Briaca's Demesne
<http://www.briaca.com/art/maternity.html> offer links to additional
period images.



Coblaith Muimnech
Barony of Bryn Gwlad
Kingdom of Ansteorra
<mailto:Coblaith@...>

While we are lucky enough to have a slightly larger sewing room,  We did line
one wall top to
bottom, wall to wall with the hanging wire shelving we purchased from home
depot/Lowes.  I
holds the weight of my wool collection well.  Just make sure it is where the sun
can't get to it.

Lady Caitrina Inghean Mhurchadha
Barony of Elfsea
Kingdom of Ansteorra
>
> Given that the sewing room is approx. 12'x12', with a wide but shallow
> closet, what would you recommend for fabric/thread/notion storage?
> Most "how to organize your sewing room" articles I've found imply that
> you have only a few yards of fabric in your stash...
>
> Thank you,
> Kat Ferneley