And there is growing evidence that quilting is even earlier than Elizabethan!


At 11:47 AM 8/3/2007, you wrote:
>Well, let's see, quilting is period to the SCA (lovely Elizabethan
>quilts) dolls are never bad, with clothes. Rag dolls are amongst the
>oldest toy out there (read Fraser's book on toys) and more int he toy
>line, balls made of fabric, either SCA era, or hacky sacks (I have a
>pattern if anyone wants that) little bags to hold silver wear. Waist
>pouches.  That sort of thing. The list goes on.
>
>Bice

On 8/3/07, Brangwyne <tenpin.ma@...> wrote:
> And there is growing evidence that quilting is even earlier than Elizabethan!

Oh, MUCH earlier. I don't quilt myself, but I've of course kept up on
things. But as long as there has been fabric, there has been some form
of quilting. The Chinese and the Japanese of course have been quilting
since time out of mind. As long as a piece of fabric was still usable,
you could do something else with it. And what better thing than
something to keep warm with?

B~


http://jaie.livejournal.com
http://dirtygirldesigns.etsy.com
YIM and AIM "daddysaudrina"
MSN "perky_pet AT hotmail"

That reminds me:  does anyone here quilt or do projects will leftover
pieces?

as much garb as I've been making of late, I would love to mail leftover
pieces to someone who can use them.  I just hate throwing away big pieces
just because they are too oddly shaped to be reusable with the piecing for
my garb (13th century).

Anyone want some leftovers for making accessory pieces?

--
Aisin-gioro Biya
Company of Medieval Aviculturists
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scaparrots


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Since we haven't done one in a while, let's do a swappers weekend.
Real life for me has been deluged with swaps. So, here's the deal...

SCA related. NO SALES. If you have it, and want to get rid of it, then
do so. Don't be afraid of doing a "pay it forward" either.

You don't HAVE to ask, or even receive anything in exchange. Someone
might just have (as the last post shows) a ton of bits of fabric they
just want gone. Or a piece of garb that might look like crap on you,
but a new shire would love it for their newbie closet.

Nothing to big or small, at worst you can do local pickup. Basically
like Freecycle-SCA except it's on here. Try not to have too much non
SCA related things though.

Bice

>Anyone want some leftovers for making accessory pieces?

If no one else wants them I'm sure I could find a use for them, but if a
more experienced person wants them they should definitely get them over me.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello all

In the general confusion of "clean sweeping" the house after my Mother
passed, I found my Grandmothers wedding gown.

While not a OMG type of dress I would like to give it a bit more
tender care than it has gotten over the years.

The dress is from about 1912 and is a cotton day dress with a lot of
lace insets (hobble skirt)

Can one of you lovely people give me a few clues on how to do this?

It has been "rolled into a ball" for a long time, but the fabric still
appears to be solid. (I wouldn't want to wear it, but there are no
apparent holes of decaying fabric)

Thank you in advance
Mariassa of Ashgrove
ashgrove@...

Find a museum supply store like Hollinger on the web and get an acid free box in
which you can lay out the dress as flat as possible. Also get some acid free
tissue paper and place it under and over the gown in the box. You can also "pad"
delicate parts with the tissue. Wherever there is a crease will eventually wear
or rot. Never put it on a hanger. Don't let any metal touch it. Here's a more
comprehensive sitet
http://nautarch.tamu.edu/class/anth605/File8.htm


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bice wrote:
> . . .quilting is period to the SCA (lovely Elizabethan quilts)

Brangwyne commented:
> And there is growing evidence that quilting is even earlier than
> Elizabethan!

and B replied:
> Oh, MUCH earlier.

Could you share your sources?  I'm aware of evidence that patchwork was
done in Europe before 1600
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Garb/message/97495>, but I've never
come across any of quilting (whole-cloth or in combination with
patchwork), and would be very interested to find it.


Coblaith Mhuimhneach
Barony of Bryn Gwlad
Kingdom of Ansteorra
<mailto:Coblaith@...>

When I say "quilting" I mean little patches, big patches, anything
that is pieced together. Doesn't mean that the back is one big whole
piece, it can be yet more smaller pieces. I've noticed people tend to
shove the modern idea of quilting into history of quilting. You can't
do that. You have to think what the quilting process would have been
to begin with, and go from there. And what it would have started as,
was someone taking some layers, and adding a filler to create
something warm. That could be 500 tiny pieces with layers between them
to make up a bed quilt. Or, it could be 50 pieces, done in a design,
with a big piece of fabric on the back to hold it together.

http://www.fabriclandwest.com/quilters%20corner/History_quilt.htm

"The earliest recorded quilted garment was found on a carved ivory
figure of a pharaoh from the first dynasty and is dated to be from
3400 BC.

In the 11th century the Crusaders brought a form of quilting to Europe
from the middle east. Knights used quilted garments under their armor
for added comfort, warmth and protection.

Quilted bedding was introduced to Europe by the Romans who used a
"culcita" or "stuffed sack", as their mattress. This idea was taken by
medieval England and the "stuffed sack" was transformed into "cowlte"
or a combined mattress and coverlet.

In the 15th century ,due to harsh winters which froze the rivers
Rhine, Rhone, and Thames, Europeans developed the quilt making
technique out of necessity.

The very first quilts were layers of cloth sewn together with a few
strong running stitches.  These primitive quilts resembled the thick
and cumbersome pallets which were slept upon. Due to the difficulty in
stitching the many layers together  the quilting frame was invented.

Europeans could now stitch finer, more decorative designs, giving rise
to the quilting art form.  Seamstresses in France brought forward the
appliqué, the Spanish were the first quilters to be asked to make
ecclesiastical vestments, and in Italy Trapunto was born.

Meanwhile the Japanese were busy perfecting their own forms of
quilting. A kind of crazy piecing known as "Yosegire", was used to
decorate clothing, hangings and screens. It is thought this technique
may have been the inspiration for crazy quilting in America and
Europe.

Japanese women created magnificent robes for warlords and dignitaries
using pieces of imported Chinese silk brocade, sewn together in
strips. In 1639 the Japanese military imposed a total import ban,
which forbade the merchant classes from wearing luxury fabrics. As a
result the frustrated merchants developed an extraordinary mastery of
indigo dyeing and printing. Sashiko (intricate webs of white stitching
on cotton and linen) was also developed in Japan, and became a part of
the samurai warriors garb."

A fast google search on :quilt history" or "history of quilting" will
give you lots of info.

Bice

> Could you share your sources?  I'm aware of evidence that patchwork was
> done in Europe before 1600
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Garb/message/97495>, but I've never
> come across any of quilting (whole-cloth or in combination with
> patchwork), and would be very interested to find it.
>
>
> Coblaith Mhuimhneach

Quoting Coblaith Mhuimhneach <Coblaith@...>:

> Bice wrote:
>> . . .quilting is period to the SCA (lovely Elizabethan quilts)
>
> Brangwyne commented:
>> And there is growing evidence that quilting is even earlier than
>> Elizabethan!
>
> and B replied:
>> Oh, MUCH earlier.
>
> Could you share your sources?  I'm aware of evidence that patchwork was
> done in Europe before 1600
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA-Garb/message/97495>, but I've never
> come across any of quilting (whole-cloth or in combination with
> patchwork), and would be very interested to find it.

Patchwork quilting (aka American Quilting) is not period.  Patchwork
was (at least there are garments and pieces of garments that are
patchwork) and quilting was.  There are quilted shoes and quilted
arming doublets.  The best known European quilt is the Tristan Quilt
-- and it's trapunto -- dates from 1394-ish.  Here's an article on it
put out by the West Kingdom Needleworkers Guild

http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/quilting.html
Well, it's quilting in general.  There's also a little bit here
http://www.sca.org.au/broiderers/newsletters/twelfthnight99.htm
look for what I did on holiday.  And here's somebody's A&S documentation
http://www.fridayvalentine.com/rafaella/kingdom_AS/blanket.pdf

Some other articles
http://georgresearch.blogspot.com/2005/11/italian-guicciardini-quilt.html
http://www.ilclubdelpuntoincroce.com/guicciardini_en.htm

jerusha
-----
Susan Farmer
sfarmer@...
Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College
Division of Science and Math
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/

Hello, I'm just getting into SCA, I'm very interested in doing
something Crusader/Templar or possibly Norman...    what would some
garb ideas be for these persona's I'm interested in persuing?   I've
tried reasearching Crusader clothing, but its hard since they only had
what they needed... would they always be in there surcoats? I'm just
lost and keep confusing myself!!!

Regards...

Bice I'll start it off...

I have several yards (more than 2 but probably less than 3) of prewashed and
slighly felted wool. It was supposed to be for a cloak that the person didn't
want to do any work on it. It is a dark burgandy/purple with thin white
pinstriping.

Unfortunately I believe it has some polyester content (very small) as the wool
'rippled' in the wash and it won't lay flat.

I would gladly give this away in exchange for postage. If you are in the Central
NJ area we could arrange a drop.

However, if someone has a Norman dress with long sleeves in a size 10-ish Long,
I wouldn't say nay to an exchange.

Katheryne

----- Original Message -----
From: Bice de La Lombard

> SCA related. NO SALES. If you have it, and want to get rid of
> it, then do so. Don't be afraid of doing a "pay it forward" either.
>
> Nothing to big or small, at worst you can do local pickup. Basically
> like Freecycle-SCA except it's on here. Try not to have too much non
> SCA related things though.
>
> Bice

My guess is that as knights, anything that you can find on knights in
general would apply to the Knights Templar to some degree.  Also, this link
has information on clothing that may be useful:
http://www.essential-architecture.com/DAVINCI/DV21.htm


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Aspasia Moonwind wrote: For early period, Italian Smocking Blackwork,
and border designs that involve finishing the edges I do it afterward
because it serves a double purpose.

Wow!  I have not seen a pattern for smocking blackwork, although I am
just about to do a smocked shirt!  Does anyone have any patterns for
the smocking?  I have looked at numerous portraits, but don't have a
clue for starting the blackwork patterns.

Marsaili

I just saw an article of clothing I had never seen before while
looking at some artwork by Holbein (16th century) -- small linen
shawls. Seems like a good use for a small bit of white linen.

By the way -- I had asked about uses for small bits of linen I had and
I appreciate the answers I got. I see no use in making little dolls
and the like since (thank God!) my children are all grown up. But it
was a good suggestion. I know I could make them for other folk's
children in my group but that might encourage children to hang around
me and see me as a kindly lady who actually likes small children --
NOT!

  I found on a beginner's guide website an interesting idea -- use the
linen for the top and hem of a underdress (I'm sure that's not the
right term, but anyway) and use something else for the part that
doesn't show. I may try that.

Vivien Hollingsworth (also known as Vivien the Grumpy)

Don't forget the possibility of doing a persona as a Hospitaller,
another of the religious fighting orders. There are two books
published by Osprey that have some good drawings that are easily
replicated as garb. You'll need lots of black wool and white linen.
Good luck

Bebhinn
College of Brymstonne


--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <xthisdaywakesx@...> wrote:
>
> Hello, I'm just getting into SCA, I'm very interested in doing
> something Crusader/Templar or possibly Norman...    what would some
> garb ideas be for these persona's I'm interested in persuing?   I've
> tried reasearching Crusader clothing, but its hard since they only
had
> what they needed... would they always be in there surcoats? I'm just
> lost and keep confusing myself!!!
>
> Regards...
>

I just wanted to say thank you to all of you who posted ideas for my
question.  :O)  The answers are greatly appreciated and I am getting pretty
excited about getting started on some of the dresses!  I may be back with
questions for help on some construction (maybe not. we'll see)  :o)  Thank
you all again!



My husband and I are both pretty excited about the upcoming little one!  :o)
Thank you for all of the well wishes!  :o)



Elisant



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Aspasia Moonwind wrote: For early period, Italian Smocking Blackwork,
> and border designs that involve finishing the edges I do it afterward
> because it serves a double purpose.
>
> Wow! I have not seen a pattern for smocking blackwork, although I am
> just about to do a smocked shirt! Does anyone have any patterns for
> the smocking? I have looked at numerous portraits, but don't have a
> clue for starting the blackwork patterns.
>
>
> .
> I guess you can look at the Mary of Hungary dress. I know of no patterns
> per se. If you look close at some of the chemises you will see they are
> gathered at the neck and/or sleeves. There will be no band. There will be
> blackwork embroidery on them in various designs. You gather to size and do
> the embroidery on top to hold them in place. at my myspace site
> http://www.myspace.com/1aspasia I have a couple of sites about it and an
> example on a chemise I'm making. However, my chemise embroidery is green
> "blackwork".
>
>



--
Aspasia Moonwind


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 8/3/07, Robert Sandler <robert.squirrel.sandler@...> wrote:
>
>   >Blackwork is generally done before, except on loose sleeves. These have
> to
> >be lined up exactly when sewn together. Over all designs also need lined
> up
> >right, so I finish that part of the garment first. For free form and
> small
> >things; like on a pair of sleeves, partlet, collar & cuffs, neckline,or a
> >coif I do the design first.
>
> So, if it's on a seam, finish the seam before embroidering. If it's in the
> middle of a piece, embroider first.
>  Recent Activity
>
>    -  11
>
> .
>
>
>
That's pretty much the way I do it.


--
Aspasia Moonwind


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I wouldn't mind some asian inspired scrappage. Have some mongol style
pouches that I want to make for my husband. If they are already taken
don't worry.

Kathws

Aisin-gioro Biya wrote:
> That reminds me:  does anyone here quilt or do projects will leftover
> pieces?
>
> as much garb as I've been making of late, I would love to mail leftover
> pieces to someone who can use them.  I just hate throwing away big pieces
> just because they are too oddly shaped to be reusable with the piecing for
> my garb (13th century).
>
> Anyone want some leftovers for making accessory pieces?
>

argh!! I use to have a pdf file of toddler baby garb (its still on the
hard drive of the old computer with the missing OS, so I can't get to it
right now) If one of people who I sent it too in the last year or so
still have it, can they could send it back to me?  I can then see about
sticking it up on a very basic website for gold key purposes for
everyones useage.

  From personal experience 7/8 to 1 1/4 yard pieces work great for baby
or toddler garb, if pattern pieces are placed sideways and done with the
folded in quarters method you can get 2 tunics out of 1 1/4 of 45"
fabric. 2 to 3 yards work decently for ages 6 to 8 (or up to 10 maybe)
especially when you use a pieced tunic style as opposed to the fold in
quarters style. I used a 3 yard piece of 45" wide vintage lilac nubby
satin that shrunk some both ways to make my 8yo daughter a fancy-ish
mongol coat for our spring crown tourney; I had to put the selvage edges
at the hem (mongol coats basically start as a fold in quarters tunic
with added front overlap) because at 8 my daughter is already tall
enough that when she rides in the car when its just her and her dad she
can sit in the front seat. I tend to make her tunics ankle length (they
can be belted higher if needed) and about 4 to 5 inches bigger around
than her chest measurement. The other measurement I will use if it ends
up bigger than the chest measurement is from around the shoulders while
the child is holding their arms straight up, that measurement with 2-3
inches of ease means that the child doesn't fight to get into the
shoulder area of their garb for a while.

Sigh, when the computer lost the os I lost all access to all my garbing
files until we hook it up as a external hard drive onto on of the new
computers, then I can finally get the files pulled off it and onto the
new computer. I'm hoping whenever we finally get the insurance company
to cough up the flooring money (water damage) then life can maybe get
down to a dull roar and something like back to something normal again,
and then I can finally get to the files. Sigh, hopefully having a water
pipe break is one of those once in a lifetime things...

Kathws

I would probably consider the pattern you are looking at to have maybe
1/4 inch seam allowances on it. So would 27 inches doubled (54 inches)
minus 1 inch still be enough for your chest? If I didn't screw up on
adding and subtracting that end up being a 53 inch chest so call it
actually a 49-50 inch chest that this pattern would work best for just
so you have some ease, as is. so the ease is for this shirt with a 49 to
50 inch chest is 3 to 4 inches. Since you will be using moder widths if
needed for a larger chest that 50 inches you just change the width of
the body piece.

Personally for my husband's tunics I go with a 6 inch ease added to his
chest measurement; but after 10 years in the SCA, I finally have the
chest width figured out and the neck binding figured out so he doesn't
rip out the neck slit on his tunics anymore.

Why the 1/4 inch SA thought above? Well I have a turkish style tunic
that my MIL bought me a couple of years ago at Estrella War and it has
1/4 inch seam allowances it is sewn all by hand with a running stitch,
except the neck edge and slit which was machine sewn. So I know a 1/4
inch seam allowance can be done with handsewing. Since this tunic is
made of a tightly woven cotton it hasn't frayed that much since bought
but I do have a couple of loose stitching areas to redo. At the same
time I am redoing these loose areas I plan to check all the seams and
perhaps I will end up doing a whip stitch over the raw edges of the
seams if the fraying is worse than I think right now. If I was
handsewing this by hand for my self I would probably use a back stich
instead of the running stitch but with 2 kids I tend to only handsew
hems, sleeve hems, and collars.

Can you use a 1/4 seam allowance with machine sewing? Yeah it might take
some practice to keep it even and possibly using a straight stitch foot
so that the seams don't pull up into the needle opening.  I tend to use
a 1/2"SA when setting up a pattern and then when I sew it on the machine
I use the 5/8" line or the next one down which is some like 3/8" on my
machine I think.

Kathws

Robert Sandler wrote:
> That brings up something that I have been trying to figure out on this
> cutting layout (
> http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/library/extmancam2-layout.jpg).
> There is an obvious lack of seam allowance on the pieces shown there, would
> I use some sort of stitching would I use for this that would not leave a raw
> edge exposed on the outside or need seam allowance, if so, how?  Or would I
> add seam allowance to it?

Good evening, SCA-Garb folk – In my mundane life, I am a professional
textile/costume conservator here in California. Chris’ advice covers the
basic for storing your wedding dress in an archival box. But let me add some
more advice – if your dress is definitely made out of cotton/linen/rayon,
then a buffered acid-free storage box is the way to go. If the dress is made
out of silk/wool, then you need to obtain a non-buffered acid-free storage
box (these are harder to find). Try to obtain a box that allows the dress
completely flat. I also recommend the use of rinsed cotton muslin/sheeting
for the lifting cloth (the one underneath the dress to help lift it out of
the box), and for any padding out.



I must point out that sometimes the use of a specially constructed padded
hanger might be the proper form of storage (never say never, you know) in
some cases.  Also the website mentioned is really, really out-of-date and
recommends treatments and chemicals that are both NOT appropriate for
textiles/costumes and are NOT SAFE for humans – the site was specifically
put together for textiles that are excavated from archaeological sites.
Please check out the following website instead:



HYPERLINK
"http://aic.stanford.edu/library/online/brochures/textiles.html"http://aic.s
tanford.edu/library/online/brochures/textiles.html



Yours in service,

Margaret Geiss-Mooney

Textile/Costume Conservator

Professional Associate, AIC

mgmooney@...



…Find a museum supply store like Hollinger on the web and get an acid free
box in which you can lay out the dress as flat as possible. Also get some
acid free tissue paper and place it under and over the gown in the box. You
can also "pad" delicate parts with the tissue. Wherever there is a crease
will eventually wear or rot. Never put it on a hanger. Don't let any metal
touch it. Here's a more comprehensive site…


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2:42 PM



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ahhh, okay.  What had happened that made me wonder about seam allowances was
that I put the point where the sleeves started narrowing right on the
midpoint, leaving no allowance for attaching the gores.  A couple hours
after sending out my message I realized that I just needed to move back the
point it starts narrowing a half-inch to get the seam allowance.  Your
discussion on ease saved me a lot of figuring out the hard way on my own,
thank you.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com, Lente <lente@...> wrote:
>
> I wouldn't mind some asian inspired scrappage. Have some mongol style
> pouches that I want to make for my husband. If they are already taken
> don't worry.
>
> Kathws

I'd be interrested into getting any pieces of silk if it is possible,
but i'd also love to get the pattern for those mongol pouches you're
talking about.

-Kirsa
Garnison du Dragonet
East Kingdom

I'm putting trim around the neckline of my early-period tunic, but I'm a bit
unsure about a
few points:
I need to tuck some fabric from the trim backing under the garment to stabilize
the neckline
seam. How might I do this?
Tied into above - should I embroider in a circle or in a strip? For a strip, I
would probably
pleat it a little.... I don't know which way is better.
Any chance I could buy the trim instead of doing yards of embroidery myself? I'm
looking for
something very simple. 2'' wide, plain colours, I believe a circle or lozenge
pattern. Any
known retailers for this kind of thing?

Thanks,
Æthelthryth

This is way off topic...

Can anyone direct me towards any decent heraldry info on European
gypsies?  (Any time or group.)

(I have a mundane project to do in October.)

Sorry to play thru with such an off topic after not posting for like
three years (due to taking time off from everything else to become a
mommy) but due to the before mentioned momydom, I have little time to
stab around doing leg work research.

Double sorry if you are an unhappy victim of this cross post.

martine

> I am at a loss.  How to get the smell, let alone the stain out of
> these gowns that I have worked so hard on?  Much of it is silk or wool
> which means the recommended method of a bleach soak or oxyclean is
> right out!

I feel for you, I really do. I had quite the opposite (fire not flood)
and have been slowly restoring my garb back to normality:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/91424360@N00/ (click house fire)
Some of that shows the state of some of my garments (wool, cotton,
linen and silk) before cleaning. Some also got smelly and nearly mouldy
as I wasn't allowed to get it all out of the house which was rather wet
from the hoses and rain.

I would agree with much of what has been said, get it outside first.
Also ask around your local dry cleaners and ask if they use a deioniser
(deionizer). These are the guys you want to use they are less likely to
hiff everything in a big machine regardless.... They hang your garments
in a room with a deioniser which will kill smells. I have also had some
of my garments ruined by one set of cleaners after the fire so really
ask around for one that caters specifically to opera and theatre
groups. The people who did a good job with mine also clean clothes for
stars when they come to this country so they had to know what they were
doing.


You should be able to clean your silks and wools in oxygen based
cleaning agents. I used Oxymagic on the wool lower sleeves in the above
flickr folder. They looked unsalvagable.
This is me wearing them earlier this month as well as the rest of the
dress that also needed TLC:
http://sg.sca.org.nz/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=2241
It won't harm fabrics and it doesn't seem to shift dye either. I also
used it on the silk lining my great hanging sleeves and fitted sleeves
and ruff from here:
http://costumes.glittersweet.com/sca/valois.htm and they are fine.
(Also seen precleaning in my flickr account).
I need to buy a whole lot more as I have many other items that are yet
to be cleaned.

I have had to wash most things several times but the products are not
as harsh as even soap esepcially when used well. But do be careful as
the dust from the Oxymagic/simialr product is very fine and you can
breathe in a bit more than you may like.


Many best wishes,
Willemyne van Nymegen
http://glittersweet.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "glitter_od" <Glitter_od@...>
To: <SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 7:30 PM
Subject: [SCA-Garb] O.T. Heraldry? (Gypsy. Any period.)


> This is way off topic...
>
> Can anyone direct me towards any decent heraldry info on European
> gypsies?  (Any time or group.)
>
Historically Heraldry was for nobles, commoners didn't qualify for a coat of
arms and Gypsies were even lower on the social hierarchy. In the SCA
everyone gets a device no matter what their persona, but in the real world
it doesn't work like that.
Elizabeth
--------------------------------------------
Elizabeth Walpole  | Elizabeth Beaumont
Canberra, Australia  | Politarchopolis, Lochac
http://au.geocities.com/amiperiodornot/

After attending an event this weekend, I've developed an interest in
learning more about Persian/Turkish garb.  To this end I am looking for
some sources especially web sources.