Horsebows.com has a new model called the Pony that is $130  and comes in 25 35
or 45 pound draw weights.  Tell Edwin that Dayrl sent you.

Quoting SEE ABOVE <jjeremyroot@...>:

> I am a begginning archer and I am looking for a used horsebow with a
> draw weight between 45# and 35#. I don't want the Korean style that
> they have at the store. I have seen a couple in my price range of
> about $130. but never in time to grab it up. Since3 I am in the SCA I
> thought it might be a good idea to put it out there that I am looking
> for such a thing and maybe it will produce what I am looking for.
>
> Tamr
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.

Would the PONY be with the traditional syhas like the Mongol and Hun
bows. Since I got married to a woman that is 100% Tatar from Tobolsk
Russia, part of my persona developement is to embrace both of our true
herritages so that we have a better idea of the true history to pass
on to our children. After the Islamification and then the Soviet era,
it is hard to find the origins of and remnants of the older culture. I
know that archery played a huge part in the defining culture of the
different groups of Tatars and I am looking forward to bringing it
back to some degree.

Tamr



--- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, dmerrill@... wrote:
>
> Horsebows.com has a new model called the Pony that is $130  and
comes in 25 35
> or 45 pound draw weights.  Tell Edwin that Dayrl sent you.
>
> Quoting SEE ABOVE <jjeremyroot@...>:
>
> > I am a begginning archer and I am looking for a used horsebow with a
> > draw weight between 45# and 35#. I don't want the Korean style that
> > they have at the store. I have seen a couple in my price range of
> > about $130. but never in time to grab it up. Since3 I am in the SCA I
> > thought it might be a good idea to put it out there that I am looking
> > for such a thing and maybe it will produce what I am looking for.
> >
> > Tamr
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>

Where can I get a traditional longbow? I have been trying to find one
with a draw of at least 85 lbs. but most of the ones I find are not
more than half that.



As an aside, what is the appeal of a 5-6 ft. bow that only draws 35-45
lbs? It really seems like a wast of two feet of wood...

On 8/17/06, Jeffrey <infantry.clark@...> wrote:
> Where can I get a traditional longbow? I have been trying to find one
> with a draw of at least 85 lbs. but most of the ones I find are not
> more than half that.

That is a very heavy poundage you are asking for.  There are not as
many bowyers who will make a bow that heavy.

> As an aside, what is the appeal of a 5-6 ft. bow that only draws 35-45
> lbs? It really seems like a wast of two feet of wood...

If the person is only shooting a paper targets, they don't usually
need 85lbs draws.

Maybe the person is too short for a 7' bow.

Maybe the person wants to be able to hunt in the brush.  Shorter bows
are easier to handle in close quarters.

It is all about desired function.

-Caedmon

of where to go to get the requirements to be a target archery marshal?

thanks
Isabella

The following is only in regards to traditional ELBs:

If you want a traditional d-profile english longbow over 85 lbs, you
have to go with yew or bois d'arc. Even then, specimins of yew and
bois d'arc that will make a bow this weight are becoming even more
rare. I can give you the name of a few bowyers, including one who
makes a proper ELB upto 200 lb. bow with horn nocks out of pacific
yew with a sinew backing. (But you won't like the price much)
In an ELB, you have to increase the thickness when you increase
width, otherwise it becomes a flatbow.

In an ELB, any typical substitute hardwoods tend to crack when you
have that much compression/expansion in the bow that is stacking
wood front to back instead of spreading it out. This is why american
hardwood bows tend to be flat. You can increase bow weight greatly
by increasing the width of the flat bow.

Few traditional bows of any type are over 70 lb. Most hunters don't
require more then 70 lbs. to take down game, (as herd animals are
not known for their armor smithing abilities...yet...but there is
one very shifty looking llama down the street that owns an anvil,
that I am keeping my eye on). And many hunters feel that anything
over 70, the archer should use a composite bow (training wheels) to
be able to hold the bow at draw longer without wrenching a muscle or
tendon. In many areas bow hunting with a handbow doesn't
differentiate between "traditional" or compound, only handbow and
crossbow are delinated, so few people use a traditional when they
want those types of weight.

Another reason why not so heavy; Many archers who were too macho at
the target butts using their 70 lb. bows are now using crossbows and
no longer able to hang out at the golf range, due to damage they've
done to rotator cuffs.
Our forefathers who used the 140lb elb in historic times, used the
bows regularly day after day, and who knows what advanced warm-up
routines they may have used to keep themselves from dislocating a
shoulder. But in modern times a bow in the 100 lb. range can
actually hurt you. In the middle ages it caused severe spinal
twisting and gross calcium build-up on radius & ulna, and drawing
hand bones.

The length of the bow has more to do with draw length then the
weight. Yes. A 72" bow may seem wasteful when it pulls 30# at 28",
but if the archer pulls 29" and the bow is a 60" ELB (d cross
section) and made of hardwood, there are good chances that it will
snap at full draw. (Especially the bows that I've seen many bowers
make with a built-up riser at the handle like native bows...the bow
doesn't bend all the way through the handle). Some bowyers will make
hickory or oak bow ELBs in 60" length, but they expressly limit the
draw length to 20-24"

Due to the roundness of the limbs in an ELB, the bow should be as
tall as the archer, unless you are under-drawing the bow. I did own
a 25# self-backed (sapwood/heartwood) english yew bow that was only
66", and I use to draw it to 29". Even this is not suggested, but
due to the fact that it was so narrow (light) and made of yew, I
figured I could push it a bit to get a better cast from it.
I would never think of doing that with a similar length bow of oak,
hickory, ipe or walnut...probably not even ash. Historical accounts
stated that the ELB was to be as tall or a fraction taller then the
one that used it to prevent it from snapping.

Lastly, a longer bow is never a waste, when it is done to add
stability.
-Cian of Storvik

> > As an aside, what is the appeal of a 5-6 ft. bow that only draws
35-45
> > lbs? It really seems like a wast of two feet of wood...

For the Kingdome of AEthelmearc it would be

Archery General - Lord Laochlain Silverwolf

archerymarshal@...


Belgraunde
Marshal at Large
Kingdome of AEthelmearc



--- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "rebeccaatthewell_2000"
<rebeccaatthewell_2000@...> wrote:
>
> of where to go to get the requirements to be a target archery
marshal?
>
> thanks
> Isabella
>

He doesn't have it listed or pictured yet.  But I think the answer is no.
The shape is similar but the leather is wrapped in a spiral arounf the limbs and
the tips that are exposed are not wood, or if they are they are painted so you
can't tell.  Also the loops are smaller and do not divide around the limbs.
I know he is currently at war but i would expect upon his return he could
provide you with a picture.  I can take a picture of the VERCI model which is
similar but longer and is $240.00

Dayrl

Quoting Tamr <jjeremyroot@...>:

> Would the PONY be with the traditional syhas like the Mongol and Hun
> bows. Since I got married to a woman that is 100% Tatar from Tobolsk
> Russia, part of my persona developement is to embrace both of our true
> herritages so that we have a better idea of the true history to pass
> on to our children. After the Islamification and then the Soviet era,
> it is hard to find the origins of and remnants of the older culture. I
> know that archery played a huge part in the defining culture of the
> different groups of Tatars and I am looking forward to bringing it
> back to some degree.
>
> Tamr
>
>
>
> --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, dmerrill@... wrote:
> >
> > Horsebows.com has a new model called the Pony that is $130  and
> comes in 25 35
> > or 45 pound draw weights.  Tell Edwin that Dayrl sent you.
> >
> > Quoting SEE ABOVE <jjeremyroot@...>:
> >
> > > I am a begginning archer and I am looking for a used horsebow with a
> > > draw weight between 45# and 35#. I don't want the Korean style that
> > > they have at the store. I have seen a couple in my price range of
> > > about $130. but never in time to grab it up. Since3 I am in the SCA I
> > > thought it might be a good idea to put it out there that I am looking
> > > for such a thing and maybe it will produce what I am looking for.
> > >
> > > Tamr
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
> >
>
>
>
>
>




----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.

Aloha.

This is the way I see things. It's not 'canon' or 'cosher' orwhatever...
just my tuppence.

35-45lb bow is :
-  more suitable for long-term shooting (after you fire 100-200 shots from a
100lb bow at a 2-day event, and find yourself unable to hold the steering
wheel on the way home, you'll understand).
-  more practical on the range - do you have any idea how deep into (or
through) a target an arrow from a 100lb bow will go at 20 or 30 yards? Not
to mention how far it'll go if you miss the target?
-  less damaging to other equipment present at the range, like other arrows
in the target, or targets themselves.

Honestly, in SCA target archery, for most part I see little use of very
strong bows. Ranges are reasonably short. Targets are quite soft... In
combat archery, of course, a stronger bow would make far more sense - but
then again, CA rules very clearly limit bow strengths as well, so there's no
'gray area' as in target archery.

However, if you really want to shoot a strongbow, I see no absolute reason
not to, if it makes you happy.


Sluga pokorni, Andros Korkyrates
~Caer Galen, Outlands

On 17/08/06, Jeffrey <infantry.clark@...> wrote:
>
>   Where can I get a traditional longbow? I have been trying to find one
> with a draw of at least 85 lbs. but most of the ones I find are not
> more than half that.
>
> As an aside, what is the appeal of a 5-6 ft. bow that only draws 35-45
> lbs? It really seems like a wast of two feet of wood...
>
>
>



--

Andro Berkovic

Never be afraid to try something new;
Remember that amateurs built the Ark,
professionals built the Titanic
and scientists built the Challenger.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Isabella,

I hope you'll find at least some of answers in here:

http://archery.outlands.org/archery-rules.pdf

YIS, Andros.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heya

I regret that I have to disagree with some of what Our good Cian has to say.

if you want a bow this heavy you can go with the very expensive yew or
osage, what he called Bois D'Arc but there is a different way, a cheeper
way. I make nice flat bows that are 70 plus inches in length. These qualify
as longbows but not the narrow profile design we all think of as an "english
longbow" My design is more along the lines of a welsh bow or what I assume
would have been a welsh bow. I make them out of Ash, elm, oak or even Rock
Maple.

the trick is to make the limbs wider and thinner rather than narrow and
thick.

if you want a heavy bow the trick is to just design it that way from the get
go and make the limbs wider, say 2 1/4 to 2 1/2 inches wide from mid limb to
mid limb. this will give you I am sure more than enough weight. What he said
about other woods cracking and breaking when used to make these heavy bows
is only really a half answer, yes it is true if you the typical narrow
design longbow but it is much less an issue with a long flat bow.

The length of a bow has to do with many things, draw length being one of
them also is stress reduction and more draw weight, shooting stability and a
good no stack design.  So a long limb is not a waste but actually an
advantage when designed correctly. You store more energy with a long design
which translates into more cast and or the ability to use a heavy arrow. Yes
a long limb can also slow cast if improperly designed but I know how to
avoid that. and I might even tell how.

the real trick is to tiller a bow to an elliptical shape rather than arc of
a circle and make sure that most of the word is done by the middle/outer
limbs rather than the inner wood. if you can avoid set in the inner limbs
you can make a faster bow. if you can narrow the outer limbs as much as
possible you get a fast bow with low handshock and minimal stack.

all this to say I can Make you a 70 lbs bow if you wish it. it is possible
just it wont be a typical english longbow.

Ragi





   _____

From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Cian of Storvik
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 3:50 PM
To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Longbows



The following is only in regards to traditional ELBs:

If you want a traditional d-profile english longbow over 85 lbs, you
have to go with yew or bois d'arc. Even then, specimins of yew and
bois d'arc that will make a bow this weight are becoming even more
rare. I can give you the name of a few bowyers, including one who
makes a proper ELB upto 200 lb. bow with horn nocks out of pacific
yew with a sinew backing. (But you won't like the price much)
In an ELB, you have to increase the thickness when you increase
width, otherwise it becomes a flatbow.

In an ELB, any typical substitute hardwoods tend to crack when you
have that much compression/expansion in the bow that is stacking
wood front to back instead of spreading it out. This is why american
hardwood bows tend to be flat. You can increase bow weight greatly
by increasing the width of the flat bow.

Few traditional bows of any type are over 70 lb. Most hunters don't
require more then 70 lbs. to take down game, (as herd animals are
not known for their armor smithing abilities...yet...but there is
one very shifty looking llama down the street that owns an anvil,
that I am keeping my eye on). And many hunters feel that anything
over 70, the archer should use a composite bow (training wheels) to
be able to hold the bow at draw longer without wrenching a muscle or
tendon. In many areas bow hunting with a handbow doesn't
differentiate between "traditional" or compound, only handbow and
crossbow are delinated, so few people use a traditional when they
want those types of weight.

Another reason why not so heavy; Many archers who were too macho at
the target butts using their 70 lb. bows are now using crossbows and
no longer able to hang out at the golf range, due to damage they've
done to rotator cuffs.
Our forefathers who used the 140lb elb in historic times, used the
bows regularly day after day, and who knows what advanced warm-up
routines they may have used to keep themselves from dislocating a
shoulder. But in modern times a bow in the 100 lb. range can
actually hurt you. In the middle ages it caused severe spinal
twisting and gross calcium build-up on radius & ulna, and drawing
hand bones.

The length of the bow has more to do with draw length then the
weight. Yes. A 72" bow may seem wasteful when it pulls 30# at 28",
but if the archer pulls 29" and the bow is a 60" ELB (d cross
section) and made of hardwood, there are good chances that it will
snap at full draw. (Especially the bows that I've seen many bowers
make with a built-up riser at the handle like native bows...the bow
doesn't bend all the way through the handle). Some bowyers will make
hickory or oak bow ELBs in 60" length, but they expressly limit the
draw length to 20-24"

Due to the roundness of the limbs in an ELB, the bow should be as
tall as the archer, unless you are under-drawing the bow. I did own
a 25# self-backed (sapwood/heartwood) english yew bow that was only
66", and I use to draw it to 29". Even this is not suggested, but
due to the fact that it was so narrow (light) and made of yew, I
figured I could push it a bit to get a better cast from it.
I would never think of doing that with a similar length bow of oak,
hickory, ipe or walnut...probably not even ash. Historical accounts
stated that the ELB was to be as tall or a fraction taller then the
one that used it to prevent it from snapping.

Lastly, a longer bow is never a waste, when it is done to add
stability.
-Cian of Storvik

> > As an aside, what is the appeal of a 5-6 ft. bow that only draws
35-45
> > lbs? It really seems like a wast of two feet of wood...






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

As others have started to point out, it depends on what Kingdom you live in.
For Caid, you can visit http://www.sca-caid.org/marshal/pubs.html and
download the Target Archery handbook which has information.  A forewarning,
Caid's Target Archery Handbook is currently under revision and some things
will change.

Christina

   _____

From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of rebeccaatthewell_2000
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 12:01 PM
To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SCA-Archery] Can anyone give me a link

of where to go to get the requirements to be a target archery marshal?

thanks
Isabella



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am sorry everyone.. I am in Meridies.  Is it very different per
kingdom???

Thanks
Isabella


--- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Jessi" <divinite@...> wrote:
>
> As others have started to point out, it depends on what Kingdom
you live in.
> For Caid, you can visit http://www.sca-caid.org/marshal/pubs.html
and
> download the Target Archery handbook which has information.  A
forewarning,
> Caid's Target Archery Handbook is currently under revision and
some things
> will change.
>
> Christina
>
>   _____
>
> From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-
Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of rebeccaatthewell_2000
> Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 12:01 PM
> To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [SCA-Archery] Can anyone give me a link
>
> of where to go to get the requirements to be a target archery
marshal?
>
> thanks
> Isabella
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "RJ Bachner" <ragi@...>
To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 3:47 PM
Subject: RE: [SCA-Archery] Re: Longbows

> I make nice flat bows that are 70 plus inches in length. These qualify
>as longbows but not the narrow profile design we all think of as an
"english
>longbow" My design is more along the lines of a welsh bow or what I assume
>would have been a welsh bow.

Lord Ragi,
   It has come time for me to say something about your statement above.

   The "english longbow" as you term it, "IS" the welshmans longbow.
   The "english" adopted it as a standard weapon during the time of
Edward Longshanks reign.

   Second, the profile of the bow is a mostly regional affectation.
   Deep in the belly or broad in the belly is mostly look.
   A give mass under stress is required for X pull weight on an all wood bow
of
a given type.

   Third, the traditional wood for a longbow is the English Yew.
   Irish Rowan is not bad, but it will not be as strong for a given profile.
   American woods that are good, are osage orange, prickly ash, and
american chestnut.
   I know these are very good woods because the Cherokee have been
making longbows out of them for several hundreds of years.
   The primary difference in the cherokee longbow versus and english longbow
is that the cherokee longbow does not use iron or horn for the string ends
of
the bow.
   The string ends are carved a touch thicker and wrapped in wet rawhide to
add strength.
   Also the Cherokee longbow average strength is different for each of the 7
clans.
Bear clan "the strongest" (85 to 100) and the bird clan being the lightest
(35 to 45).

Liam

also you have to take in account that youll need a custom made string. i have
several bows of that draw weight and they will stretch a 16 strand commercial
string. also your arrows will have to be heavy. if your arrow bends at all
leaving the bow you could be headed for trouble if they break. aluminum and
graphite can handle the stress but then youre not keeping with traditional,ted
RJ Bachner <ragi@...> wrote:          Heya

I regret that I have to disagree with some of what Our good Cian has to say.

if you want a bow this heavy you can go with the very expensive yew or
osage, what he called Bois D'Arc but there is a different way, a cheeper
way. I make nice flat bows that are 70 plus inches in length. These qualify
as longbows but not the narrow profile design we all think of as an "english
longbow" My design is more along the lines of a welsh bow or what I assume
would have been a welsh bow. I make them out of Ash, elm, oak or even Rock
Maple.

the trick is to make the limbs wider and thinner rather than narrow and
thick.

if you want a heavy bow the trick is to just design it that way from the get
go and make the limbs wider, say 2 1/4 to 2 1/2 inches wide from mid limb to
mid limb. this will give you I am sure more than enough weight. What he said
about other woods cracking and breaking when used to make these heavy bows
is only really a half answer, yes it is true if you the typical narrow
design longbow but it is much less an issue with a long flat bow.

The length of a bow has to do with many things, draw length being one of
them also is stress reduction and more draw weight, shooting stability and a
good no stack design. So a long limb is not a waste but actually an
advantage when designed correctly. You store more energy with a long design
which translates into more cast and or the ability to use a heavy arrow. Yes
a long limb can also slow cast if improperly designed but I know how to
avoid that. and I might even tell how.

the real trick is to tiller a bow to an elliptical shape rather than arc of
a circle and make sure that most of the word is done by the middle/outer
limbs rather than the inner wood. if you can avoid set in the inner limbs
you can make a faster bow. if you can narrow the outer limbs as much as
possible you get a fast bow with low handshock and minimal stack.

all this to say I can Make you a 70 lbs bow if you wish it. it is possible
just it wont be a typical english longbow.

Ragi





_____

From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Cian of Storvik
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 3:50 PM
To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Longbows

The following is only in regards to traditional ELBs:

If you want a traditional d-profile english longbow over 85 lbs, you
have to go with yew or bois d'arc. Even then, specimins of yew and
bois d'arc that will make a bow this weight are becoming even more
rare. I can give you the name of a few bowyers, including one who
makes a proper ELB upto 200 lb. bow with horn nocks out of pacific
yew with a sinew backing. (But you won't like the price much)
In an ELB, you have to increase the thickness when you increase
width, otherwise it becomes a flatbow.

In an ELB, any typical substitute hardwoods tend to crack when you
have that much compression/expansion in the bow that is stacking
wood front to back instead of spreading it out. This is why american
hardwood bows tend to be flat. You can increase bow weight greatly
by increasing the width of the flat bow.

Few traditional bows of any type are over 70 lb. Most hunters don't
require more then 70 lbs. to take down game, (as herd animals are
not known for their armor smithing abilities...yet...but there is
one very shifty looking llama down the street that owns an anvil,
that I am keeping my eye on). And many hunters feel that anything
over 70, the archer should use a composite bow (training wheels) to
be able to hold the bow at draw longer without wrenching a muscle or
tendon. In many areas bow hunting with a handbow doesn't
differentiate between "traditional" or compound, only handbow and
crossbow are delinated, so few people use a traditional when they
want those types of weight.

Another reason why not so heavy; Many archers who were too macho at
the target butts using their 70 lb. bows are now using crossbows and
no longer able to hang out at the golf range, due to damage they've
done to rotator cuffs.
Our forefathers who used the 140lb elb in historic times, used the
bows regularly day after day, and who knows what advanced warm-up
routines they may have used to keep themselves from dislocating a
shoulder. But in modern times a bow in the 100 lb. range can
actually hurt you. In the middle ages it caused severe spinal
twisting and gross calcium build-up on radius & ulna, and drawing
hand bones.

The length of the bow has more to do with draw length then the
weight. Yes. A 72" bow may seem wasteful when it pulls 30# at 28",
but if the archer pulls 29" and the bow is a 60" ELB (d cross
section) and made of hardwood, there are good chances that it will
snap at full draw. (Especially the bows that I've seen many bowers
make with a built-up riser at the handle like native bows...the bow
doesn't bend all the way through the handle). Some bowyers will make
hickory or oak bow ELBs in 60" length, but they expressly limit the
draw length to 20-24"

Due to the roundness of the limbs in an ELB, the bow should be as
tall as the archer, unless you are under-drawing the bow. I did own
a 25# self-backed (sapwood/heartwood) english yew bow that was only
66", and I use to draw it to 29". Even this is not suggested, but
due to the fact that it was so narrow (light) and made of yew, I
figured I could push it a bit to get a better cast from it.
I would never think of doing that with a similar length bow of oak,
hickory, ipe or walnut...probably not even ash. Historical accounts
stated that the ELB was to be as tall or a fraction taller then the
one that used it to prevent it from snapping.

Lastly, a longer bow is never a waste, when it is done to add
stability.
-Cian of Storvik

> > As an aside, what is the appeal of a 5-6 ft. bow that only draws
35-45
> > lbs? It really seems like a wast of two feet of wood...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low  PC-to-Phone call rates.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rudderbows are probably a good source - they've got stock traditional long bows
to at least 65#. With thier kits you could go considerably heavier.
   Unless you are hunting a heavy draw is more a liability than an asset - Combat
archers are limited to 30# anyway (and probably have a fiberglass bow they can
drop in the mud).
   Most folks I've seen on a target range wouldn't last more than a couple rounds
trying to hold that draw to aim...so you get a traditional longbow...that anyone
can use...all day.

   http://rudderbows.com/

Jeffrey <infantry.clark@...> wrote:
           Where can I get a traditional longbow? I have been trying to find one
with a draw of at least 85 lbs. but most of the ones I find are not
more than half that.

As an aside, what is the appeal of a 5-6 ft. bow that only draws 35-45
lbs? It really seems like a wast of two feet of wood...






---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low  PC-to-Phone call rates.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heya

I am not so sure that the "welsh" bows and the "English" bows can be said to
be one and the same, perhaps they became that way at some point but welsh
bows are described as wide and short, referring I think to flat bows. The
long narrow longbow design is pretty old, having been around long before the
term english came to exist. So who adopted it from whom is still an open
ended question.

As for the profile being regional affectations, I am sure there is something
to that but it comes down to what works. if you dont have yew then a wide
limb profile will work better. I dont know welsh rowan but I know that elm
was a common bow wood when yew was not available.

Were hickory available in the old world I am sure it would have been used as
well. but aside from being purely accurate, practicality allows us to make
bows of white ash and maple and Hop Hornbeam and Oak and a multitude of
other woods. But to say that wide or narrow is all about look is plain
ignorant I am afraid, any bowyer worth his salt can tell ya that. I can make
a maple bow narrow and deep and all I will do is end up with a badly set
piece of wood, yet the same bow made with a wide flat limb will be a sweet
shooting joy to behold. the limb design has to do with stress tolerance more
than just looks. I can make a 50 lb flat bow out of white pine that will
shoot as well as an osage or yew flat bow if I am willing to allow the
design to work with the wood. In fact I have been thinking of doing just
that. of course the limb profile will be 4 or 5 inches wide but it will
work.

Many woods do not take the high stress of an ELB design so ya make the limbs
wide and thin which will allow them to bend without the stress destroying
the wood, the stress is the same but the way it is spread out allows less
strong woods to bear them well. You cant assume that the Bowyers in period
were ignorant of how different bow woods worked, and if they did not have
good yew to work with the design would have to be modified to get best
performance from the bows they made of whatever wood was available.

the Cherokee make bows of whatever wood will suite them, hickory, black
locust, osage, ash or oak and I am sure there are others. They dont have the
fancy nocks that yew does because the woods used do not require the extra
strength of a horn nock. Often they made the nocks of wrapped sinew so they
could narrow the limb tips to almost a conical point too narrow to cut nocks
into it. they did not have to build up the nocks for strength though I am
sure some did for looks.

I am not aware of any clan differentiations in bow strength but what you
claim sounds odd. The Cherokee were a nation of people with a passion for
making war and hunting. the references I have seen mention a hunting bow of
40-60 lbs and a war bow of as much as 85 lbs. this seems more logical than
having some clan using small game bows to wage war with Of course I may be
wrong, what's your source for this so I may look it up.

Ragi

   _____

From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Liam (the Doryman)
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:37 PM
To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Longbows



----- Original Message -----
From: "RJ Bachner" <ragi@brokenaxe. <mailto:ragi%40brokenaxe.ca> ca>
To: <SCA-Archery@ <mailto:SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 3:47 PM
Subject: RE: [SCA-Archery] Re: Longbows

> I make nice flat bows that are 70 plus inches in length. These qualify
>as longbows but not the narrow profile design we all think of as an
"english
>longbow" My design is more along the lines of a welsh bow or what I assume
>would have been a welsh bow.

Lord Ragi,
It has come time for me to say something about your statement above.

The "english longbow" as you term it, "IS" the welshmans longbow.
The "english" adopted it as a standard weapon during the time of
Edward Longshanks reign.

Second, the profile of the bow is a mostly regional affectation.
Deep in the belly or broad in the belly is mostly look.
A give mass under stress is required for X pull weight on an all wood bow
of
a given type.

Third, the traditional wood for a longbow is the English Yew.
Irish Rowan is not bad, but it will not be as strong for a given profile.
American woods that are good, are osage orange, prickly ash, and
american chestnut.
I know these are very good woods because the Cherokee have been
making longbows out of them for several hundreds of years.
The primary difference in the cherokee longbow versus and english longbow
is that the cherokee longbow does not use iron or horn for the string ends
of
the bow.
The string ends are carved a touch thicker and wrapped in wet rawhide to
add strength.
Also the Cherokee longbow average strength is different for each of the 7
clans.
Bear clan "the strongest" (85 to 100) and the bird clan being the lightest
(35 to 45).

Liam






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jeffrey,

I recently received my warbow from Don Adams.  It is a 7' self stave yew with no
handle.  It works full compass and is a thing of beauty.  The bow draws 104# at
30 inches.

http://www.donadamsarchery.com/<http://www.donadamsarchery.com/>

Richard de Westwode


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Jeffrey<mailto:infantry.clark@...>
   To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
   Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 7:42 AM
   Subject: [SCA-Archery] Longbows


   Where can I get a traditional longbow? I have been trying to find one
   with a draw of at least 85 lbs. but most of the ones I find are not
   more than half that.

   As an aside, what is the appeal of a 5-6 ft. bow that only draws 35-45
   lbs? It really seems like a wast of two feet of wood...





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ragi wrote

> I am not so sure that the "welsh" bows and the "English" bows can be said to
> be one and the same, perhaps they became that way at some point but welsh
> bows are described as wide and short, referring I think to flat bows.

And Liam wrote
> The "english longbow" as you term it, "IS" the welshmans longbow.
> The "english" adopted it as a standard weapon during the time of
> Edward Longshanks reign.


And I am going to agree and disagree with both of you.

First, I believe that the Welsh Bow was the English Longbow but that the design
was
around way before Edward Longshanks ever ventured into Wales. It is a design
that is
found throughout Western Europe. If it was not already in England at the time,
it was
probably brought over by the Normans.

There are no known artifacts of the Welsh bow and all we have is Gerald of Wales
description of them. But even here there is much debate over what is the correct
translation.

Version 1:  Yet the bows used by these people are not made of horn, ivory, or
yew, but of
wild elm, unpolished, rude and uncouth, not only calculated to shoot an arrow to
a great
distance, but also to inflict very severe wounds in a close fight

Version 2: Yet the bows used by these people (the Venta) are not made of horn,
ivory, or
yew, but of wild elm; unpolished, rude and uncouth, but stout; not calculated to
shoot an
arrow to a great distance, but to inflict very severe wounds in a close fight.

There is no mention of the bow being wide and short. Version 1 is often used to
justify the
claim that Edward turned the Welshbow into the English Longbow because it shoots
far
and hard. Version 2 is used to justify a flatbow because its shoots short and
hard. From a
pure physics viewpoint, I can't see the bow making a difference. How far the
arrow flies
and how hard it hits depends on the bow only for initial velocity and
acceleration. Once it
leaves the bow, its all up to the arrow. Shooting the same arrow out of the two
types of
bow, I think you are going to find that both shoot either long and hard or short
and hard.

Liam, I am trying to track down the book that shows the bows found at Vimrose,
Nydam,
and Ballinnderry and compares them to a Mary Rose bow. All the bows share
similiar
characteristics in regards to profile and length. While there are differences,
an archer could
easily look at any of these bows and see that they are all variations of the
'English Long
Bow' even though they predate the ELB and England for that matter.  As such, I
see at best
parallel development of the long bow or the long bow brought to England, Wales,
and
Ireland by the Norse.

There is nothing special about the English Long Bow or the Welsh Bow or the
Viking Bow.
What made the English Long Bow was how it was used not the bow itself.

Ragi, I know you like to make the wide flatbows but many bowyers are
rediscovering the
classic ELB design. There are two ways to make a heavy bow safe. Go wide and
flat or long
and narrow. While yew and osage are premium bow woods, other white woods like
elm,
ash, and even red oak are being used to make heavy war bows for re-enactors in
the ELB
design. Forget six feet bows, they are going to seven feet and beyond. Flat and
wide works
but its not the only way. Check out some of the stuff Badger and Thimo are doing
on
Paleoplanet.

In service,
James Wolfden
(who is quite happy shooting 30 pound bows all day long)

Isabella,

It may not be "very different" in each Kingdom but it is different...  Unless
someone has a direct link for you, the best place to start looking is the
Kingdom web site.  Look for the 'Captain General of Archers' or whatever your
head officer there is called and follow the links from there to the rules...

Antony

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: rebeccaatthewell_2000
   To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 7:34 PM
   Subject: [SCA-Archery] Re: Can anyone give me a link


   I am sorry everyone.. I am in Meridies. Is it very different per
   kingdom???

   Thanks
   Isabella

   --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Jessi" <divinite@...> wrote:
   >
   > As others have started to point out, it depends on what Kingdom
   you live in.
   > For Caid, you can visit http://www.sca-caid.org/marshal/pubs.html
   and
   > download the Target Archery handbook which has information. A
   forewarning,
   > Caid's Target Archery Handbook is currently under revision and
   some things
   > will change.
   >
   > Christina
   >
   > _____
   >
   > From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-
   Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
   > Behalf Of rebeccaatthewell_2000
   > Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 12:01 PM
   > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
   > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Can anyone give me a link
   >
   > of where to go to get the requirements to be a target archery
   marshal?
   >
   > thanks
   > Isabella
   >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 8/18/2006 4:26:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com writes:

I know  these are very good woods because the Cherokee have been
making longbows  out of them for several hundreds of years.
The primary difference in the  cherokee longbow versus and english longbow
is that the cherokee longbow  does not use iron or horn for the string ends
of
the bow.
The string  ends are carved a touch thicker and wrapped in wet rawhide to
add  strength.
Also the Cherokee longbow average strength is different for each  of the 7
clans.
Bear clan "the strongest" (85 to 100) and the bird clan  being the lightest
(35 to 45).

Liam



Milord,

   I find this to be very interesting as I hear little if anything  about
native American archery.  Do you have a good source(s) for  information/history
on
archery among the American Indian tribes?

John Bor Ox
Malagentia, East Kingdom

(What is native anyway? how long do you have to be some place before you  are
considered to be native?)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lord John,
   I grew up on the old resevation in N.E. Oklahoma.
   I am Bear Clan by birth.
   My name in Cherokee is,  ayouthlitlasa.
   (I am also Irish and folks can pronounce "Liam")
   Most of what I know is what my grandfather taught me.

Liam Meyrick (the Doryman)


----- Original Message -----
From: <JohnBorOx@...>
To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 12:51 PM
Subject: [SCA-Archery] Archery among Native Americans/American Indians/those
who came here first


>
>
> In a message dated 8/18/2006 4:26:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com writes:
>
> I know  these are very good woods because the Cherokee have been
> making longbows  out of them for several hundreds of years.
> The primary difference in the  cherokee longbow versus and english longbow
> is that the cherokee longbow  does not use iron or horn for the string
ends
> of
> the bow.
> The string  ends are carved a touch thicker and wrapped in wet rawhide to
> add  strength.
> Also the Cherokee longbow average strength is different for each  of the 7
> clans.
> Bear clan "the strongest" (85 to 100) and the bird clan  being the
lightest
> (35 to 45).
>
> Liam
>
>
>
> Milord,
>
>   I find this to be very interesting as I hear little if anything  about
> native American archery.  Do you have a good source(s) for
information/history on
> archery among the American Indian tribes?
>
> John Bor Ox
> Malagentia, East Kingdom
>
> (What is native anyway? how long do you have to be some place before you
are
> considered to be native?)
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> --
> [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Yup! Each Kingdom has their own handbook, yoiu can
copies of most online. We just rewrote the handbook
for Trimaris so it's not yet available.
                                        Arianna
                                     Captain of
Archers,
                                      Trimaris
--- rebeccaatthewell_2000
<rebeccaatthewell_2000@...> wrote:

> I am sorry everyone.. I am in Meridies.  Is it very
> different per
> kingdom???
>
> Thanks
> Isabella
>
>
> --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Jessi"
> <divinite@...> wrote:
> >
> > As others have started to point out, it depends on
> what Kingdom
> you live in.
> > For Caid, you can visit
> http://www.sca-caid.org/marshal/pubs.html
> and
> > download the Target Archery handbook which has
> information.  A
> forewarning,
> > Caid's Target Archery Handbook is currently under
> revision and
> some things
> > will change.
> >
> > Christina
> >
> >   _____
> >
> > From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SCA-
> Archery@yahoogroups.com] On
> > Behalf Of rebeccaatthewell_2000
> > Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 12:01 PM
> > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Can anyone give me a link
> >
> > of where to go to get the requirements to be a
> target archery
> marshal?
> >
> > thanks
> > Isabella
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

I just took a look and the handbook for Live Weapons in Meridies is at this
link
http://www.meridies.org/marshal/meridies_live_weapons_handbook.pdf
I have seen postings on the list from the Kingdom marshal or as he terms
himself the benevolent dictator of flying pointy things He may be at Pennsic
right now,but I am sure he will be back online soon .He is of course the
ideal person to ask.
Good luck in your quest to become a marshal ,
Llywyllyn

On 8/17/06, Jennie Fernandez <fern718jen@...> wrote:
>
>    Yup! Each Kingdom has their own handbook, yoiu can
> copies of most online. We just rewrote the handbook
> for Trimaris so it's not yet available.
> Arianna
> Captain of
> Archers,
> Trimaris
> --- rebeccaatthewell_2000
>
> <rebeccaatthewell_2000@... <rebeccaatthewell_2000%40yahoo.com>>
> wrote:
>
> > I am sorry everyone.. I am in Meridies. Is it very
> > different per
> > kingdom???
> >
> > Thanks
> > Isabella
> >
> >
> > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com <SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Jessi"
> > <divinite@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > As others have started to point out, it depends on
> > what Kingdom
> > you live in.
> > > For Caid, you can visit
> > http://www.sca-caid.org/marshal/pubs.html
> > and
> > > download the Target Archery handbook which has
> > information. A
> > forewarning,
> > > Caid's Target Archery Handbook is currently under
> > revision and
> > some things
> > > will change.
> > >
> > > Christina
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > > From: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com <SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>[mailto:
> SCA-
> > Archery@yahoogroups.com <Archery%40yahoogroups.com>] On
> > > Behalf Of rebeccaatthewell_2000
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 12:01 PM
> > > To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com <SCA-Archery%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Can anyone give me a link
> > >
> > > of where to go to get the requirements to be a
> > target archery
> > marshal?
> > >
> > > thanks
> > > Isabella
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-snip

Third, the traditional  for a longbow is the English Yew.
Irish Rowan is not bad, but it will not be as strong for a given profile.
American woods that are good, are osage orange, prickly ash, and
american chestnut.
-snip

Just to followup here, english yew was also inferior to making the ELB.
Which is one of the reasons shipping taxes were paid with yew staves.
Spanish and Italian yew (especially Italian) were much better yew woods
to use. Reason you ask? England is a temperate zone, and the changes in
temperature year over year are wide enough to cause the growth rings to
vary in spacing.... not good. Consistent temperatures year over year,
yield a fine wood... ahem, such as our Pacific Yew.

I am currently shooting a62#,  74" ELB, bamboo backed vermillion....
shoots very sweet it does.

To add to another misnomer, and to echo Jame's note, the bow profile is
all about the type of wood used. You just do not make an ELB out of any
old type of wood.

Godwin

Check out the Human Resources Area File (HRAF) at your local
university.  It's probably computerized now (when I was using it, it
was a huge card file) and is a primary ethnographic source.  It is a
resource for most modern cultures (that is the last hundred years or
so) so it won't help much with historical research but it does
contain a lot of information on early contact cultures.  It is
heavily cross-referenced between culture and trait including
activity, custom, tool, material, and so forth.  So if you look up
Native American and hunting you should get close.  It may even be
broken down further to get you directly to archery.
Carolus

At 10:51 AM 8/18/2006, you wrote:
>smip



>Liam
>
>Milord,
>
>I find this to be very interesting as I hear little if anything about
>native American archery. Do you have a good source(s) for
>information/history on
>archery among the American Indian tribes?
>
>John Bor Ox
>Malagentia, East Kingdom
>
>(What is native anyway? how long do you have to be some place before you are
>considered to be native?)


--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.3/423 - Release Date: 8/18/2006

Like a previous poster, I am also looking at getting a horsebow.  I have
a few questions:

1)  Location.  I know the previous poster got a recommendation of
www.horsebows.com.  I've also found
http://www.sevenmeadowsarchery.com/merchant.ihtml.  Does anyone have any
experience with them, or any others?  Just want to make sure I know all
my options.  (I'd love to find a place in Canada, but so far that hasn't
happened...)

2)  Style of shooting.  I'd like to try the Mongolian Draw.  However,
never having done that before, I'm not sure if I'll want to continue
using it after I've tried it.  This makes ordering a bow very tricky,
since it's my understanding that Mongolian has a different anchor point
(which would change the poundage, etc...).  Any suggestions?  (Note, I'm
short w/ short arms, and a very beginning archer.)

3)  History.  My persona is 1200 Spanish.  It's my understanding that a
crossbow would be by far the most appropriate and documentable, but I
don't want to do a crossbow since I'd never be able to practice.  I've
had a couple suggestions of documentation for Moors using horsebows,
which is why I'm thinking about going this way (and I just think they're
neat).  Again, if anyone has any suggestions/opinions on the matter,
they'd be appreciated.

4)  Accessories.  Again, any thoughts anyone has on accessories are
welcome.  Material for the ring?  Gloves?  I'm thinking I'd like a pair
of just regular full gloves, since I can't find documentation for the
three-fingered kind, and then I'd have a glove for each hand (right for
if I do Mediterranean, and left due to the lack of arrow rest).  Quiver
- it looks like hip is more accurate, but I'm told it might be
detrimental to speed draw rounds.  Armguard I think is relatively
straightforward.  Anything else?  (Well, of course, the arrows
themselves...)

Thanks!

-Lianor de Najera

1. Location

Where in Canada are you? There are a number of SCA merchants who sell horsebows
as
well. One of them is probably at Pennsic. I live in B.C. and would likely get
one from
Andras Truemark out of Washington State. Your local archery shop may also carry
the
Samick SKB Korean bow which looks a little more modern.

2. Style of shooting.

Most of the horsebows being sold are modern fiberglass recreations and are set
up for
drawlengths of 28". You can use a three finger grip no problem or try the
mongolian
release. Your drawlength will still be dependent on where you anchor.

3. History

Are crossbows not allowed on your local range? We have a similiar problem but I
am still
able to get out and practise at events and on private land. Obviously, safety
has to be
considered. We are using the rule right now that you need range at least twice
the yardage
of the power of the bow. Or use a backstop -- we make one out of chipboard.

Accessories

Horn is the most common ring material but could also use copper tubing with
leather
glued inside. I am sure you could just do it out of leather as well. Or use a
glove if the bow
weight is light.

In service,
James Wolfden

>Gloves? I'm thinking I'd like a pair
of just regular full gloves, since I can't find documentation for the
three-fingered kind, and then I'd have a glove for each hand (right for
if I do Mediterranean, and left due to the lack of arrow rest).<

Greetings
Having made my own pair of shooting gloves I recommend you start at this webpage
:
http://www.glove.org/

It has a lot of links that, if you decide to make gloves, can prove quite
useful. Make a
mock-up in wool/felt first to get the exact fit then use leather. Use a nice
deerskin or
kidskin. Go for sensitivity in the leather, rub it between your fingertips on
opposite hands
to get the degree of sensitivity. I use kidskin and found it protects my fingers
very well.
Stretch the leather first.

If you wish to learn more contact me off-list and I can send you information I
have
gathered for a class I teach about glove-making.

In service,
Margaret Hamilton of Stirlingshire

P.S. The bonus with full gloves is you can also wear them off-range when the
weather
dictates!

jameswolfden wrote:
> Where in Canada are you? There are a number of SCA merchants who sell
horsebows as
> well. One of them is probably at Pennsic. I live in B.C. and would likely get
one from
> Andras Truemark out of Washington State. Your local archery shop may also
carry the
> Samick SKB Korean bow which looks a little more modern.
>
I'm in Calgary.  I've only been to a couple of events, but I have yet to
see anything like this.  I've gone through the inventory of any local
places that sell bows and not seen any of the Korean ones...:-(

Just browsing Truemark Archery - seems to be the same horsebow line as
the Seven Meadows site.  But you've had a good experience with them
personally?

> Most of the horsebows being sold are modern fiberglass recreations and are set
up for
> drawlengths of 28". You can use a three finger grip no problem or try the
mongolian
> release. Your drawlength will still be dependent on where you anchor.
>
Right, but the poundage is the trick, right?  If I have a certain
poundage at one release point, won't it be different at the other?

> Are crossbows not allowed on your local range? We have a similiar problem but
I am still
> able to get out and practise at events and on private land.
Nope - no crossbows at the local range.  And given that all practices
and local events are held there, I think I'd have a hard time getting
proficient.  :-)

Thanks!

-Lianor