SCA-Archery : Messages : 1-30 of 26954

Owen if you are "on list"please give me your new address.  The old one keeps
bouncing.

James Cunningham

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (3)

#28

From: "Deann E. Allen" <dallen@...>
Date: Sat Jul 31, 1999 6:20 am
Subject: Re: Quivers etc

dallen@...

Robert L Brunnemer wrote:
>
> From: Robert L Brunnemer <hugewheels@...>
[snip]
> <<<Saying that anyone would start from a desire to believe in
> something and then set out to find documentation to prove it is
> perhaps the worst insult that can be offered anyone who does
> research.  It would be just as easy -- and uncalled-for -- to
> claim that your wife set out to prove a belief that back quivers
> did not exist in period.>>>
>
> If this is really an attack than I am really messed up here.  How
> are things proved by documentation.  I always thought that someone
> would want to find something out, (whether something did or didn't
> happen, or was used) look in a lot of books, and then prove or
> disprove something.  From the way I read this it sounds like to
> you as a researcher would have to stumble onto things blindly and
> then say "Hey that is interesting I will have to do it that way."
> Am I way off base or just reading this wrong.  (By the way I am not
> being sarcastic, I am truly curious about this.)
>
> I am not trying to upset or insult anyone here, I am just stating
> my opinion as a person who really has nothing to do with the
> conversation, and is therefore an unconcerned third party.

Someone once said that the best way to lie is to tell only part of
the truth.  Starting from a preconceived belief and setting out to
prove it entails ignoring any evidence you find that contradicts
the point you are trying to prove.  In effect, if you did conduct
research in this manner, your results would be lies, because they
would not tell all the truth about what you found.  That is why such
an accusation is an insult to anyone who conducts research.

As to whether Tracy's comments were meant in jest and were taken as
serious.... Well, that's why someone invented emoticons.  When you
say something that is not to be taken seriously, adding a smile :)
or a wink ;) will make that clear to the reader.  When such are
absent, it is usual to take the comment as being serious.  Some
people eschew emoticons as being uncouth.  I have found they mostly
enhance understanding, if used in moderation.

D.
--
100% pure, Grade A, American Mutt caffeine!
------------------------------------------

#27

From: Robert L Brunnemer <hugewheels@...>
Date: Sat Jul 31, 1999 5:19 am
Subject: Re: Quivers etc

hugewheels@...

I am sorry I was not going to speak on this thread anymore, because it
has turned into a heated argument instead of being a helpful debate, but
I think that I must reply as a 3rd party here.

BlkKnightI@... wrote:
>>> I and several others viewed the tapestry
> and that its a back quiver is questionable-Hardly documentation.>>>

Then Dean wrote in response:
>>>Which in no way invalidates whatever other documentation was found
by Mistress Kendra.  Nor is Macsen's "statement" in any way "faulty,"
his memory is merely incomplete.>>>

I read the original post that stated that their was "proof" on the
bayeau(sp?) tapestry of back quivers.  If I remember (I may not be
totally correct, but I don't think that my mind is failing me that much)
that someone wrote that in a article, I don't think that it was Macsen,
without mentioning Mistress Kendra's documentation.  The lady in question
(sorry I forget her name) then stated that the only thing that she could
find on the Bayeau(sp?) tapestry was a belt quiver around the shoulders.
(Which I would think would be a back quiver because it is on the back by
the way.)  Then some people (if not many) took this as a personal attack,
because of some other things that she wrote in jest about Errol Fllynn
movies (which I didn't get) and about horses standing on their heads.  (I
too thought that to be VERY funny. :-))

Really I think that all of this was just a GIGANTIC mis-understanding,
and could have been avoided, but really it seems that people had a bad
week, and thus all of a sudden here we are on One List.  Remember thought
that a single straw can not break the camel's back.  So as Macsen stated
"The straw that broke the camel's back" means that there had to have been
MANY other moments that Macsen was unhappy with all of the things that
had been going on.

<<<Saying that anyone would start from a desire to believe in something
and then set out to find documentation to prove it is perhaps the
worst insult that can be offered anyone who does research.  It would
be just as easy -- and uncalled-for -- to claim that your wife set
out to prove a belief that back quivers did not exist in period.>>>

If this is really an attack than I am really messed up here.  How are
things proved by documentation.  I always thought that someone would want
to find something out, (whether something did or didn't happen, or was
used) look in a lot of books, and then prove or disprove something.  From
the way I read this it sounds like to you as a researcher would have to
stumble onto things blindly and then say "Hey that is interesting I will
have to do it that way."  Am I way off base or just reading this wrong.
(By the way I am not being sarcastic, I am truly curious about this.)

I am not trying to upset or insult anyone here, I am just stating my
opinion as a person who really has nothing to do with the conversation,
and is therefore an unconcerned third party.

Also a bit of advice from a 17 year old that you could take or tell me to
go to hell with.  I have always thought that when people start to argue
with no real purpose (that is not debating, but name calling arguing) it
is best to step back a minute think about it from the other point of
view, and then try to resolve the issue.  Again read the upset insult
part above.

Have a nice day!!!
Robert
Hugewheels@...
Tha mi a'fluich mi kilt!!!

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

#26

From: "lester" <edisto@...>
Date: Sat Jul 31, 1999 5:34 am
Subject: Re: Re: Quivers etc

edisto@...

As a new member of this list, enough is enough.   If Macen is not going to
apologize for his rudeness, so be it. but lets get on with something
constructive.

I wish to learn the correct way to make arrows for war, such as where do I
get the tips - can they be made - are wooden arrows allowed, if not what
type are allowed. Where on the web (SCA) can I find this information

Thanks

Ifer de Leycester

   ----- Original Message -----
From: Deann E. Allen <dallen@...>
To: <SCA-Archery@onelist.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 1999 12:08 AM
Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Quivers etc


> From: "Deann E. Allen" <dallen@...>
>
> Elfwine wrote:
> [snip]
> >   Tracy's statements, right or wrong, is NOT the issue here. It's the
> > rude, vulgar language used toward a Lady, and Macsen's tantrum, which
> > has landed us here without so much as a "peep" from the peers on this
> > list-service. Whatever happened to morality? Let those who are here
> > have the decency to stand up and be counted among those who will not
> > tolerate this behavior.
> >
> >   Now there may have been "private" e-mailing with Macsen reguarding
> > this matter to which I am unaware. However, Tracy has a RIGHT to ask
> > for, and recieve, a public apology. And that has not been forthcoming.
> > In fact, Macsen was rather rude about that too.
>
> I must disagree, Elfwine.  Tracy's comments ARE part of the issue.
> She made accusations of fabricating documentation to justify
> preconceived beliefs, and of emulating Errol Flynn movies instead of
> doing proper research.  These remarks were uncalled-for and rude in
> themselves.  That she made these remarks while -- knowingly or not --
> virtually standing in Macsen's house makes it even more inexcusable.
>
> When two people are publicly rude to each other, you cannot in justice
> call for only one to publicly tender an apology.  Gentle is as gentle
> does, Lord and Lady are titles of *courtesy,* and the strictures of
> courtesy apply equally to all.
>
> D.
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> ONElist:  your connection to like-minds and kindred spirits.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This list sponsored by House Wyvern Hall
> of Barony Beyond the Mountain, East Kingdom

#25

From: "Deann E. Allen" <dallen@...>
Date: Sat Jul 31, 1999 5:08 am
Subject: Re: Re: Quivers etc

dallen@...

Elfwine wrote:
[snip]
>   Tracy's statements, right or wrong, is NOT the issue here. It's the
> rude, vulgar language used toward a Lady, and Macsen's tantrum, which
> has landed us here without so much as a "peep" from the peers on this
> list-service. Whatever happened to morality? Let those who are here
> have the decency to stand up and be counted among those who will not
> tolerate this behavior.
>
>   Now there may have been "private" e-mailing with Macsen reguarding
> this matter to which I am unaware. However, Tracy has a RIGHT to ask
> for, and recieve, a public apology. And that has not been forthcoming.
> In fact, Macsen was rather rude about that too.

I must disagree, Elfwine.  Tracy's comments ARE part of the issue.
She made accusations of fabricating documentation to justify
preconceived beliefs, and of emulating Errol Flynn movies instead of
doing proper research.  These remarks were uncalled-for and rude in
themselves.  That she made these remarks while -- knowingly or not --
virtually standing in Macsen's house makes it even more inexcusable.

When two people are publicly rude to each other, you cannot in justice
call for only one to publicly tender an apology.  Gentle is as gentle
does, Lord and Lady are titles of *courtesy,* and the strictures of
courtesy apply equally to all.

D.

#24

From: "John Rockwell" <phxrock@...>
Date: Sat Jul 31, 1999 4:51 am
Subject: Re: Period vs. modern

phxrock@...

Sitting here and reading the post below  it got me thinking. And remembering
that I have some Osage and some Hickory that is 2 years old.  I have the
Bowyers Bible #1 but I am a hands on person.  I purchased this wood to make
a period longbow. But with just the book this wood will sit and continue to
dry until I can find someone that can work with me.  End result I want to
shoot period and I can't.  So for now I will shoot my 62" 55# recurve and
enjoy.

Ian Griffen


----- Original Message -----
From: Don Goen <archer3@...>
To: <SCA-Archery@onelist.com>
Sent: Friday, July 30, 1999 9:03 PM
Subject: [SCA-Archery] Period vs. modern


> From: archer3@... (Don Goen)
>
>    I agree with Kaz. Many seem to think that he is saying if you don't
> shoot period, you should be. I didn't see that at all. You can't force
> someone to become period in their equipment and style. That comes from
> desire. Offering unsolicited education? A way of "testing the waters".
> Those that are interested, will be. Once the % was dropped, one archer I
> knew was constantly saying, "If I had been shooting open, my score would
> have been this". Wrong frame of mind. I don't see myself as being in
> "competition" with open div. archers. We live in a modern world, modern
> bows will always be there, and in the majority. Far as Corpora goes, one
> should look at the "intent", as opposed to the "letter". To promote
> period archery, _not_ exclude those who have modern equipment.
>   Seperate recognition of those that shoot period has been a topic of
> some discussion among those I shoot with. I agree that there should be
> seperate recognition for period. One day it will happen. It is a
> refinement that applys to Archery, that does not apply to heavys. One
> thing to keep in mind. Archery can be recreated in the SCA to 100%
> authenticity.
>   Period police: If someone says you aren't period enough, they should
> be giving you period equipment they made. Not criticizing what one can
> afford, acquire, or desires to shoot.
>
>                Damian  >>~~~>
>      Visit The Outlands Archery page at
> http://www.unm.edu/~kballar/archery/archgen.htm
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> ONElist:  your connection to online communities.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This list sponsored by House Wyvern Hall
> of Barony Beyond the Mountain, East Kingdom
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (20)

#23

From: Leonard & Patty Baldt <baldt@...>
Date: Sat Jul 31, 1999 4:52 am
Subject: South Sound Unity Tournament

baldt@...

Hello:
I'm interested in attending "South Sound Unity Tournament".  Might
someone out there know what archery events are planned?

Thank you,    An te' raudh    (Patty Baldt)

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)

#22

From: "Deann E. Allen" <dallen@...>
Date: Sat Jul 31, 1999 4:49 am
Subject: Re: Quivers etc

dallen@...

BLOODSNG@... wrote:
>
> From: BLOODSNG@...
>
> oK HERE IT GOES , In the book  A glossery of the construction
> decoration and use of arms and aror in all countries and in all
> times, ( no kiding that is the tidel). it has quite a few quivers
> in it hip, hourse, chariot, and back....
[snip]

Thank you.  Filed for reference. :)

D.
--
100% pure, Grade A, American Mutt caffeine!
------------------------------------------

#21

From: "Bob Dewart" <gilli@...>
Date: Sat Jul 31, 1999 4:27 am
Subject: Re: Proposed rules

gilli@...

I asked the same question almost 4 hours ago and haven't seen it on the list
yet.

Gilli
Ansteorra


-----Original Message-----
From: phxrock@... <phxrock@...>
To: SCA-Archery@onelist.com <SCA-Archery@onelist.com>
Date: Friday, July 30, 1999 11:37 PM
Subject: [SCA-Archery] Proposed rules


>From: phxrock@...
>
>Has any one heard any thing about the rules yet.
>
>Just courious
>
>
>Ian Griffen
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>Transfer your big list to ONElist and earn $500!
>For program details, go to
>http://www.onelist.com/info/biglistbon_intro.html
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>This list sponsored by House Wyvern Hall
>of Barony Beyond the Mountain, East Kingdom
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (5)

#20

From: phxrock@...
Date: Sat Jul 31, 1999 4:22 am
Subject: Proposed rules

phxrock@...

Has any one heard any thing about the rules yet.

Just courious


Ian Griffen

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (5)

#19

From: SoLdIeRGuRl@...
Date: Sat Jul 31, 1999 4:14 am
Subject: Re: 2 cents worth

SoLdIeRGuRl@...

Please Take Me Off Your List!! Thank You!

#18

From: "John Rockwell" <phxrock@xxxxxxxx.xxxx
Date: Sat Jul 31, 1999 4:00 am
Subject: 2 cents worth

phxrock@xxxxxxxx.xxxx

Greetings to the Lords and Ladies of the List

I have been following the outburst of days past.  I feel it is a sad day when we
as the Archers of the SCA have to have a disagreement that was held.  We all
share a common interest, which is Archery.  Lets agree to disagree and to never
go to bed mad (ha, ha).  I have only been connected for a short time and feel
that the archers of the list is are the mentors and teachers that are lacking in
some of the Known World.  We all learn from each other and look to the other
when we are having problems.  From what I have seen there are Knights, Masters
(Laurel, Pelicans), Barons/Baronesses and other good gentile on this list.  Each
having somethin to add and share about this great sport.  BTW I can't put on the
suit of armour due to some physical contions, but I can and enjoy archery.  I
look to the list to for some insight to what I need to do to accomplish my
desires in Archery..

So if we can lets start a good debate, discussion or something we can all sink
our teeth in.


Yours in Service to Archery

Lord Ian Griffen the Archer
     Captian of Archers Barony of Atenveldt,
     Apprentice to Master Baron Blackarrow

#17

From: archer3@xxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxx)
Date: Sat Jul 31, 1999 4:03 am
Subject: Period vs. modern

archer3@xxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxx

I agree with Kaz. Many seem to think that he is saying if you don't
shoot period, you should be. I didn't see that at all. You can't force
someone to become period in their equipment and style. That comes from
desire. Offering unsolicited education? A way of "testing the waters".
Those that are interested, will be. Once the % was dropped, one archer I
knew was constantly saying, "If I had been shooting open, my score would
have been this". Wrong frame of mind. I don't see myself as being in
"competition" with open div. archers. We live in a modern world, modern
bows will always be there, and in the majority. Far as Corpora goes, one
should look at the "intent", as opposed to the "letter". To promote
period archery, _not_ exclude those who have modern equipment.
   Seperate recognition of those that shoot period has been a topic of
some discussion among those I shoot with. I agree that there should be
seperate recognition for period. One day it will happen. It is a
refinement that applys to Archery, that does not apply to heavys. One
thing to keep in mind. Archery can be recreated in the SCA to 100%
authenticity.
   Period police: If someone says you aren't period enough, they should
be giving you period equipment they made. Not criticizing what one can
afford, acquire, or desires to shoot.

                Damian  >>~~~>
      Visit The Outlands Archery page at
http://www.unm.edu/~kballar/archery/archgen.htm

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (20)

#16

From: Alberic <alberic@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Date: Sat Jul 31, 1999 2:19 am
Subject: ah, sigh...?mellow?

alberic@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxx

Ok folks, here goes nothin'...

Elfwine wrote:
>
>   I am astonishished that a society based on chivalry, and especially
> those on this list who are Peers, have remained silent when a Lord
> calls a Lady an "Asshole", and more. Had this conversation taken place
> anywhere else in the society, that Lord would surely have been called
> before a Court of Chivalry to answer for his breach in behavior. I
> thank those who came to BlkKnightI's Lady (Tracy) and offered
> encouragement, though I am disheartened that they did so privately.

Elfwine:  I've been playing for the last 15 years, and I've only heard
of 3 chiv courts that've definitely occurred in that time, and they were
all in relation to somebody who's now in prison for murder.  (really)
This suggests that the bar is rather higher than calling someone an ass.

As far as name calling goes, well obviously nobody should be calling
anybody obscene names, be they lords, ladies, or blue-ringed octopi.
However, this whole thing blew up so hard and fast that I suspect I was
not alone in biting my tongue lest I make a bad situation worse.
(Translation: it's bad karma to tap-dance in a minefield.)  However
convenient electronic conversations are, there is one known pitfall:
the loss of subtlety and nuance in communication frequently lead people
to assume that messages are more aggressively intended than they were,
and arguments that never would have happened in a more subtle
environment frequently explode into just the sort of mess we saw here.
If they'd been speaking face-to-face, I doubt the argument would have
gotten anywhere near as heated, and certainly not to the name calling
stage.  Those of us who've been on the net for a while understand that
people frequently overreact and do so in ways that are rather more
vociferous than they might otherwise do, and adjust our tolerance levels
accordingly.

Personally, although I wasn't much interested in the back quiver debate
(since I only shoot crossbows) I at least skimmed the messages, and to
be frank, I did think at the time that Tracy's 'well if you want to
emulate Errol Flynn...' comment was a bit more sarcastic and flip than
it needed to have been.  The invitation to the list-owner to take his
ball and go home was..inadvisable at best.  It's hard to have an open
discourse if dissenting opinions are invited to leave.

Enough damage has been done all round.
Can we just drop the argument and move on?
So, I heard somebody ask what the BOD did to the archery rules.
Anybody know?  I'm actually sort of curious.

Cheers-
Alberic

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)

#15

From: Elfwine <longbow@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Date: Sat Jul 31, 1999 1:26 am
Subject: Re: Quivers etc

longbow@xxxxxxx.xxxx

I am astonishished that a society based on chivalry, and especially those on
this list who are Peers, have remained silent when a Lord calls a Lady an
"Asshole", and more. Had this conversation taken place anywhere else in the
society, that Lord would surely have been called before a Court of Chivalry to
answer for his breach in behavior. I thank those who came to BlkKnightI's Lady
(Tracy) and offered encouragement, though I am disheartened that they did so
privately.

   Tracy's statements, right or wrong, is NOT the issue here. It's the rude,
vulgar language used toward a Lady, and Macsen's tantrum, which has landed us
here without so much as a "peep" from the peers on this list-service. Whatever
happened to morality? Let those who are here have the decency to stand up and be
counted among those who will not tolerate this behavior.

   Now there may have been "private" e-mailing with Macsen reguarding this matter
to which I am unaware. However, Tracy has a RIGHT to ask for, and recieve, a
public apology. And that has not been forthcoming. In fact, Macsen was rather
rude about that too.

   I'm done with this list if those remaining shrug the whole thing off with a
"Well now... what were we talking about?"

   >>--Elfwine-->

#14

From: BLOODSNG@xxx.xxx
Date: Fri Jul 30, 1999 9:22 pm
Subject: Re: Quivers etc cont.

BLOODSNG@xxx.xxx

Good greef there has been documentation and a source for it sent to the list
but all any one wants to do is fight, chest beat ....when the pissing an
testosterone contest is over and tempers settle down maybe we can all learn
something or is this going to turn into a draconian site .

#13

From: BLOODSNG@xxx.xxx
Date: Fri Jul 30, 1999 9:11 pm
Subject: Re: Quivers etc

BLOODSNG@xxx.xxx

oK HERE IT GOES , In the book  A glossery of the construction decoration and
use of arms and aror in all countries and in all times, ( no kiding that is
the tidel). it has quite a few quivers in it hip, hourse, chariot, and
back................also look at soe of the early statues an art og the greco
roan times there are saples there also , for soe reason I reber a painting of
heries with a back quiver but I do not have it here .............Blood

#12

From: "Deann E. Allen" <dallen@xxxxxx.xxxx
Date: Sat Jul 31, 1999 1:14 am
Subject: Re: Quivers etc

dallen@xxxxxx.xxxx

BlkKnightI@... wrote:
>
> From: BlkKnightI@...
[snip]
> >2. I comment that I know of extensive documentation gathered by
> Mistress Kendra.  Off the top of my head the one particular item I
> recall involved the Bayeux Tapestry.<
>
> Your statement was shown faulty in that the archer (only one) in
> the Tapestry, indeed has a quiver on a belt around his shoulders,
> is using a back quiver. I and several others viewed the tapestry
> and that its a back quiver is questionable-Hardly documentation.

Which in no way invalidates whatever other documentation was found
by Mistress Kendra.  Nor is Macsen's "statement" in any way "faulty,"
his memory is merely incomplete.

> We have yet to see the documentation mentioned over and over again.
> I too am interested in it.

As am I.  Unfortunately, the only way to see the documentation would
be to find Mistress Kendra, which no one, apparently, now knows how
to do.

> >3. Tracy chimes in with a sarcastic, "If we want to believe that
> "back quivers"are period we will. And if you choose to emulate
> Errol Flynn movies, that too is a matter of choice. I prefer to
> research what they did do first and emulate that-not find
> justification for preference. "<
>
> Tracy was not being sarcastic at all. She had offered her scholarly
> observations and offered a conclusion. She stated the obvious, and
> I think her approach in attempting to be period should be commended.

It was sarcastic, completely uncalled-for, and a rather sorry example
of both ad hominum and straw man arguments.

Saying that anyone would start from a desire to believe in something
and then set out to find documentation to prove it is perhaps the
worst insult that can be offered anyone who does research.  It would
be just as easy -- and uncalled-for -- to claim that your wife set
out to prove a belief that back quivers did not exist in period.

The reference to Errol Flynn movies came from a gentle who offered
the pattern for that back quiver to any who were interested.  There
was no claim whatsoever of it being either period or documentable.

> She also did not insult Kendras intelligence (Kendra never said a
> thing on this list) but asked for documentation for your statements
> which you have failed to provide. I now question your intelligence.
> Her "notions" are not preconceived but based on scholarly study. So
> far...so Far mind you, noone else has found and offered sources or
> documentation on the "back quiver" either.

So far, as you say.  That one person has not duplicated another's
research often means only that A. it is not something that has come
up as an item of interest, or B. access to the same sources is not
available.  To question that person's intelligence based on a third
person's apparently *incomplete* scholarly research merely makes you
appear biased.

D.
--
100% pure, Grade A, American Mutt caffeine!
------------------------------------------

#11

From: "Deann E. Allen" <dallen@xxxxxx.xxxx
Date: Sat Jul 31, 1999 12:50 am
Subject: Re: new list

dallen@xxxxxx.xxxx

Ian Gourdon wrote:
>
> From: Ian Gourdon <agincort@...>
[snip]
> I felt it likely that the poor lass who made the
> 'break-the-camels-back' comment had no idea who she was
> speaking to, whatsoever. I had been on the list
> for some months before the 'penny dropped' for me.

In all my experience on lists and on the old BBS's, only one
person -- the moderator -- *ever* has any right to suggest that
a participant go elsewhere.

D.

#10

From: "Pookie" <Pookie2@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Date: Sat Jul 31, 1999 12:02 am
Subject: Re: Welcome to SCA-Archery@onelist.com

Pookie2@xxxxxxx.xxxx

>
> To unsubscribe from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at
> www.onelist.com, and select the User Center link from the menu bar
> on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription
> between digest and normal mode.
>
There ISNT a User Center link on the left! UNSUSCRIBE ME NOW!

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (5)

From: BlkKnightI@xxx.xxx
Date: Fri Jul 30, 1999 6:58 pm
Subject: Quivers etc cont.

BlkKnightI@xxx.xxx

Sorry I accedently sent the last email before it was complete.
What we Know is this:
1. One archer in the The Bayeux tapestry has what appears to be a belt and
Quiver slung over his shoulders.
2.Archers accessed arrows many different ways, including in hand, in the
ground, on the ground, in belt quivers. (I will be glad to supply some
documentation if you really think it nescessary) but we haven't found
documentation for back quiver yet.

Richard

From: BlkKnightI@xxx.xxx
Date: Fri Jul 30, 1999 6:50 pm
Subject: Quivers etc

BlkKnightI@xxx.xxx

I have been observing for some time this exchange about Tracys statements and
have refrained from comment for too long. We all now should know how it
started so I will just address the key matters.

>2. I comment that I know of extensive documentation gathered by
Mistress Kendra.  Off the top of my head the one particular item I
recall involved the Bayeux Tapestry.<

Your statement was shown faulty in that the archer (only one) in the
Tapestry, indeed has a quiver on a belt around his shoulders, is using a back
quiver. I and several others viewed the tapestry and that its a back quiver
is questionable-Hardly documentation. We have yet to see the documentation
mentioned over and over again. I too am interested in it.
What we know at this point is that
1.One archer in the Bayeux Tapestry Appears to have a belt and Quiver slung
over his shoulders.
2.

>3. Tracy chimes in with a sarcastic, "If we want to believe that
"back quivers"are period we will. And if you choose to emulate
Errol Flynn movies, that too is a matter of choice. I prefer to
research what they did do first and emulate that-not find
justification for preference. "<

Tracy was not being sarcastic at all. She had offered her scholarly
observations and offered a conclusion. She stated the obvious, and I think
her approach in attempting to be period should be commended.

>4. Tracy gets beaten into the ground for both her snobbish attitude
("emulating Errorl Flynn movies")  and for insulting Kendra's
intelligence and my own ("if we want to believe back quivers are
period we will") -- obviously *her* failure to find documentation
means that Mistress Kendra's is suspect and I'm wrong for having
the temerity to contradict her preconceived notions.<

I am amused, she is neither "beaten to the ground," She has held herself well
amid your namecalling, profanity, insult and infantile posts (you have
certainly provide the documentation for that) and nor is she snobbish. She is
far from that, I would know as I am her husband. She also did not insult
Kendras intelligence (Kendra never said a thing on this list) but asked for
documentation for your statements which you have failed to provide. I now
question your intelligence. Her "notions" are not preconceived but based on
scholarly study. So far...so Far mind you, noone else has found and offered
sources or documentation on the "back quiver" either. Tracy has received
numerous private E-mails reaffirming her statements and many apologizing for
your behavior. On her behalf I thank you all. She no longer is considering
leaving the list.

>5. Straw breaks camel's back.  List moves elsewhere.<
Macsen<

For all your hard work, you have done yourself dishonour buy your resentful
childish babble which is apparent to all. As for the list moving...Vivat!

From: Ian Gourdon <agincort@xxxx.xxxx
Date: Fri Jul 30, 1999 10:36 pm
Subject: Re: new list

agincort@xxxx.xxxx

Well, sure.
Shooting comes first, at least for me. I shoot a modern 45# recurve, a
35# longbow, and just now aquired a 125# crossbow, which was made by
Patric McPhelan. Nice late period style with a rolling nut. It's hard to
do them all justice when the archery range is 30 minutes away, and they
don't allow crossbows. So, Monday night we went to the Eastwatch (NE
Ohio) practice, an hour away. At least I got the crossbow warmed up a
little. The shutting up part is a little harder, for me: I felt it
likely that the poor lass who made the 'break-the-camels-back' comment
had no idea who she was speaking to, whatsoever. I had been on the list
for some months before the 'penny dropped' for me.
Ian Gourdon

Guy Taylor wrote:
>
> From: "Guy Taylor" <greytaylor@...>
>
> Personally, at least for awhile, I'm going to shut the hell up and just
> shoot arrows.
>
> Taillear
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> You can WIN $100 to Amazon.com by starting a new list at ONElist.
> Drawing is held each week through August 20.  For details, go to
> http://www.onelist.com/info/onereachsplash3.html
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This list sponsored by House Wyvern Hall
> of Barony Beyond the Mountain, East Kingdom

--
Ian Gourdon of Glen Awe
- Companion of the order of the Greenwood Company
http://web.raex.com/~agincort

From: "Guy Taylor" <greytaylor@xxxxxxxx.xxx.xxxx
Date: Fri Jul 30, 1999 10:10 pm
Subject: Re: new list

greytaylor@xxxxxxxx.xxx.xxxx

Personally, at least for awhile, I'm going to shut the hell up and just
shoot arrows.

Taillear

From: DarkKnight <lmason@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Date: Fri Jul 30, 1999 9:56 pm
Subject: Re: new list

lmason@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx

Does anyone have Yakov's email addy? I need to contact him.

Ragnar

From: F J Villafranca III <rev@xxx.xxxx
Date: Fri Jul 30, 1999 10:00 pm
Subject: Re: new list

rev@xxx.xxxx

Greetings to all,
     I would hope the new list would be viewed as a "new start" for all
parties subscribing, and hopefully - "Can't we all just get along ? (no
negative and / or ridicule intended to anyone).

                             Preserving the Archers Dream,

                             Eshtban il Andalus
                             Shire of Tre' Lac
                             Kingdom of Ansteorra

John Edgerton wrote:

> From: John Edgerton <sirjon@...>
>
> Will the threads we were commenting on the old list carry over here or
> will they have to be restarted?
>
> Jon
>
> On Fri, 30 Jul 1999, Ian Gourdon wrote:
>
> > From: Ian Gourdon <agincort@...>
> >
> > Well,
> > Here we are, some of us. Suits me, as long as there's someplace to
> > listen and talk this sport over...
> > --
> > Ian Gourdon of Glen Awe
> > - Companion of the order of the Greenwood Company
> > http://web.raex.com/~agincort
> >
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> ONElist users:  YOU can win a $100 gift certificate to Amazon.com.
> Check out the FRIENDS & FAMILY program to find out how.
> For details, go to http://www.onelist.com/info/onereachsplash3.html
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This list sponsored by House Wyvern Hall
> of Barony Beyond the Mountain, East Kingdom

From: Ian Gourdon <agincort@xxxx.xxxx
Date: Fri Jul 30, 1999 9:49 pm
Subject: Re: new list

agincort@xxxx.xxxx

Most likely the Threads as such, will nedd to be created anew. New
server, new database...
Ian

John Edgerton wrote:
>
> From: John Edgerton <sirjon@...>
>
> Will the threads we were commenting on the old list carry over here or
> will they have to be restarted?
>
> Jon
>
> On Fri, 30 Jul 1999, Ian Gourdon wrote:
>
> > From: Ian Gourdon <agincort@...>
> >
> > Well,
> > Here we are, some of us. Suits me, as long as there's someplace to
> > listen and talk this sport over...
> > --
> > Ian Gourdon of Glen Awe
> > - Companion of the order of the Greenwood Company
> > http://web.raex.com/~agincort
> >
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> ONElist users:  YOU can win a $100 gift certificate to Amazon.com.
> Check out the FRIENDS & FAMILY program to find out how.
> For details, go to http://www.onelist.com/info/onereachsplash3.html
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This list sponsored by House Wyvern Hall
> of Barony Beyond the Mountain, East Kingdom

--
Ian Gourdon of Glen Awe
- Companion of the order of the Greenwood Company
http://web.raex.com/~agincort

From: John Edgerton <sirjon@xxxxxx.xxxx
Date: Fri Jul 30, 1999 9:38 pm
Subject: Re: new list

sirjon@xxxxxx.xxxx

Will the threads we were commenting on the old list carry over here or
will they have to be restarted?

Jon

On Fri, 30 Jul 1999, Ian Gourdon wrote:

> From: Ian Gourdon <agincort@...>
>
> Well,
> Here we are, some of us. Suits me, as long as there's someplace to
> listen and talk this sport over...
> --
> Ian Gourdon of Glen Awe
> - Companion of the order of the Greenwood Company
> http://web.raex.com/~agincort
>

From: Ian Gourdon <agincort@xxxx.xxxx
Date: Fri Jul 30, 1999 9:32 pm
Subject: new list

agincort@xxxx.xxxx

Well,
Here we are, some of us. Suits me, as long as there's someplace to
listen and talk this sport over...
--
Ian Gourdon of Glen Awe
- Companion of the order of the Greenwood Company
http://web.raex.com/~agincort