On 26 Jan, Jim Hediger wrote:

> From: jhediger@... (Jim Hediger)
>
> Dennis Rockwell asked:
>
> >Does anybody know offhand when coil steel cars were
> >implemented?  I believe that coil steel was shipped in gons
> >before then; was there any weather protection?  My specific
> >interest is mid-fifties, but I'm sure others care about
> >other dates.
> _____________________________________
>
> Here's a copy of some information I recently put together:
>  [ ... ]

Wow!  Thanks!

Dennis

Dennis Rockwell asked:

>Does anybody know offhand when coil steel cars were
>implemented?  I believe that coil steel was shipped in gons
>before then; was there any weather protection?  My specific
>interest is mid-fifties, but I'm sure others care about
>other dates.
_____________________________________

Here's a copy of some information I recently put together:

Until the mid-1950s, most coil steel was shipped in open gondolas using
heavy wood dunnage to hold it in place.  However, the weight of the lading
caused a lot of shifting during impacts which broke up the dunnage and
damaged the edges of the coil.

In the mid-1950s, a skid system was developed for coil steel.  A 50-foot
gondola was outfitted with two heavy wooden skids that carried the coils on
their sides, parallel with the rails.  The bottom rails of the skids sat on
L or U shaped steel plates on the car floor with an old tie at each end to
serve as an expendable bumper.  Sheet metal hoods fit over the skids to
protect the lading from the weather.  My review of the Con-Cor HO coil
steel/covered gondolas in the March 1993 MODEL RAILROADER (pages 42 & 46)
has a diagram of how this was done.

The theory was an impact would momentarily shift the carbody under the load
until friction from the weight in the skid started it moving as well.  The
tie at the end bore the brunt of the impact on solid hits!   Some railroads
tried adding spring buffers in place of the ties, but the tie across the
end was the most common.

Evans coil steel cars changed this theory in the mid-1960s.  The Evans cars
tied the load down tight within the carbody using adjustable DF bars to
separate and restrain the coils.  To protect the load, Evans used a
cushioning device that had a rigid sliding sill which moved under the
carbody.  A Hydra-Cushion hydraulic cylinder mounted in the middle of the
underframe dampened the motion and recentered the sliding sill after an
impact.

I don't know much about the end of car cushioning on coil cars, but
evidently it's something car engineers are looking at again.  When the
Evans and other similar coil cars were introduced, the rigid sill was
touted as a good deal as they didn't contribute to slack action.

It also took a while to educate the switch crews that sliding-sill cushion
cars only protected their own contents without absorbing impacts.  A hard
impact was simply transferred through the sill into the next car behind the
cushioned car!

Cheers,

Jim Hediger, Senior Editor
Model Railroader magazine
P. O. Box 1612, Waukesha, WI 53187-1612
414- 796-8776 ext. 452,  FAX 414-796-1142

Have you ever seen what happens when a car comes off the track?  The best place
to be watching a train moving over 10 mph is at least a quarter mille away.
Larry

Miracle Castings Inc. wrote:

> From: "Miracle Castings Inc." <miracle-castings@...>
>
> Jim wrote:
>
> >Our local crews and car inspectors were supposed to watch for them, but
> >sometimes one would get by everybody to become a real hazard. Can you
> >imagine the damage a 7 or 8-foot piece of strapping could do as it whipped
> >around in the air stream of a moving train?   Wow!  A good reason to be
> >standing back from a passing train!
> >
>
> This is still a good reason to stand back from a moving train!  I've seen
> strapping from lumber cars flapping in the breeze on several occasions.  If
> you got hit, it could take your head off.  Some railfans stand way too close
> to the tracks for comfort.  By the way, weren't some grain doors made out of
> cardboard or layered paper? Or was this just an applique put on wooden
> doors?
>
> Pat Lawless
>
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On 26 Jan, Jim Hediger wrote:

> First off, WC hauls a fair amount of these empty coil steel cars north
> enroute to the Algoma Steel plant   [ ... ]

Thanks, Jim!

Does anybody know offhand when coil steel cars were
implemented?  I believe that coil steel was shipped in gons
before then; was there any weather protection?  My specific
interest is mid-fifties, but I'm sure others care about
other dates.

Thanks!

Dennis

I heartily agree with all of Mark Hemphill's comments about shipping coil
steel.  It's a fascinating business with an amazing variety of processes
and products.

However, my brief answer to Steve Clasen explained what I've seen moving in
our area on the Wisconsin Central.  They handle comparatively little steel
compared to many other railroads, and what does come through here is always
covered.

I was just trying to give him some ideas of local industries along the WC
that use these cars in Wisconsin.

Cheers, :o)





Jim Hediger, Senior Editor
Model Railroader magazine
P. O. Box 1612, Waukesha, WI 53187-1612
414- 796-8776 ext. 452,  FAX 414-796-1142

On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Jim Hediger wrote:

> From: jhediger@... (Jim Hediger)
>
> Steve Clasen asked:
>
> >I have a numerous collection of Steel Coil Cars.  For my waybill system I
> >need to load these cars somewhere.  My route is the Wisconsin Central in
> >Wisconsin, Era is Present Day.  I am looking for either what type of building
> >is used, what type of equipment is used to load and unload, and where I can
> >load and unload these types of cars for the steel coil loads.
>
> Other coil steel cars move tinplate to on-line canneries that make their
> own cans in central Wisconsin.
>
> Appliance plants and office furniture companies also use a lot of coil
> stock, but one carload would probably last them for several weeks.
>
Manufacturers of tinplate, appliances, and office furniture, as well as
automotibiles, use cold-rolled steel, which may or may not be coiled,
because they require drawing characteristics and especially surface finish
characteristics that cannot be met with hot-rolled coil.

Typical users of hot-rolled coil, other than the cold-rolling mills, are
manufacturers of tanks (surface and underground), highway guardrails, farm
machinery, barrels and drums, prefabricated silos, signs, and construction
machinery.

> Coil cars are typically unloaded with overhead cranes.  Single coils
> typically weigh between 10 and 15 tons, so it'll require a fair size
> capacity hoist.
>
And loaded similarly.  Coils now weigh up to 100,000 lbs each, and from
what I have seen the tendency is towards the larger coils (two per car)
because the price is a little better.

> Most coil stock is handled indoors to keep the steel dry (that's the reason
> for the protective hoods on the cars).  Sheet metal buildings, like the
> Walthers rolling mill, or a Pikestuff two-story warehouse combined with an
> older masonry production plant are probably the most typical structures for
> this type of industry.
>
Whether or not the coil is shipped in covered cars or open cars depends
upon the needs of the customer.  Customers that will be rerolling the
steel do not necessarily need a coil that has been protected from
precipitation, and customers of large steel fabrications such as tanks
seldom need really good surface quality either and can accept somewhat
rusty steel.  The steel mills would much prefer to ship all of their coil
steel in open cars, because then they can load the coils hot.  For obvious
reasons, one cannot load hot coils into a closed car; it tends to melt the
brake system gaskets.  But steel mills do not want to store coil until it
cools down, either, because then they're sitting on inventory, they have
to handle the coils two more times, and they have to find some place to
put them.


> Unloading is accomplished by lifting one hood and setting it on the
> brackets of the adjacent hood.  Then the steel is removed and the hoods are
> switched to work the opposite end.  Some plants simply set the hoods on the
> ground, which is why they seldom match the car.

One of my friends who handled the Geneva Steel account for D&RGW relates a
story that the railroad kept sending Geneva a car with only one hood.
Geneva kept rejecting the car, and finally after it appeared yet again
with only one hood, told my friend that if the railroad sent them the car
with only one hood again, it would reappear with NO hoods.  Sure enough,
the next day's tramp deposited the car at Geneva, and a few days later it
reappeared loaded with coil, but with no hoods.  So the question was, did
the steel mill set the hood somewhere, or had it gone into the furnace?

Mark William Hemphill

Jim wrote:

>Our local crews and car inspectors were supposed to watch for them, but
>sometimes one would get by everybody to become a real hazard. Can you
>imagine the damage a 7 or 8-foot piece of strapping could do as it whipped
>around in the air stream of a moving train?   Wow!  A good reason to be
>standing back from a passing train!
>

This is still a good reason to stand back from a moving train!  I've seen
strapping from lumber cars flapping in the breeze on several occasions.  If
you got hit, it could take your head off.  Some railfans stand way too close
to the tracks for comfort.  By the way, weren't some grain doors made out of
cardboard or layered paper? Or was this just an applique put on wooden
doors?

Pat Lawless

Steve Clasen asked:

>I have a numerous collection of Steel Coil Cars.  For my waybill system I
>need to load these cars somewhere.  My route is the Wisconsin Central in
>Wisconsin, Era is Present Day.  I am looking for either what type of building
>is used, what type of equipment is used to load and unload, and where I can
>load and unload these types of cars for the steel coil loads.

First off, WC hauls a fair amount of these empty coil steel cars north
enroute to the Algoma Steel plant (on the Algoma Central) at Saulte Ste,
Marie, Ont.  However, I'm not sure if they can haul the 100-ton loads south
across the double lift bridge at the Soo.

Other coil steel cars move tinplate to on-line canneries that make their
own cans in central Wisconsin.

Appliance plants and office furniture companies also use a lot of coil
stock, but one carload would probably last them for several weeks.

Coil cars are typically unloaded with overhead cranes.  Single coils
typically weigh between 10 and 15 tons, so it'll require a fair size
capacity hoist.

Most coil stock is handled indoors to keep the steel dry (that's the reason
for the protective hoods on the cars).  Sheet metal buildings, like the
Walthers rolling mill, or a Pikestuff two-story warehouse combined with an
older masonry production plant are probably the most typical structures for
this type of industry.

Unloading is accomplished by lifting one hood and setting it on the
brackets of the adjacent hood.  Then the steel is removed and the hoods are
switched to work the opposite end.  Some plants simply set the hoods on the
ground, which is why they seldom match the car.

Regards,



Jim Hediger, Senior Editor
Model Railroader magazine
P. O. Box 1612, Waukesha, WI 53187-1612
414- 796-8776 ext. 452,  FAX 414-796-1142

Thanks to Peter Bowers and Mark Hemphill for the explanation of
      refinery traffic.  FYI, the era that I'm modeling is recent.  1980's
      to present.  If knowing that sparks anymore thoughts, please pass them
      on.

      Regards,

      Mike


______________________________ Reply Separator ____________________________
_____
Subject: [Ry-ops-industrialSIG] Re: Refinery Modeling
Author:  Ry-ops-industrialSIG@onelist.com (Mark William Hemphill
<mhemph1@...>) at INTERNET
Date:    1/25/99 8:05 PM






From: Mark William Hemphill <mhemph1@...>



On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Peter Bowers wrote:

> >     I am new to the list and would like to ask for guidance on
modeling a
> >     small refinery.  I'd like to know what type of rolling stock
goes in
> >     and out of a refinery.  Perhaps some help as to where to find
track
> >     plans for a refinery.
> >
> >     Mike - NJ
> >
> Mike,
>
> Depending on the era you would see different inbound traffic to
refineries.
>  Flat cars with machinery, fractionating towers, flat cars and
gondolas of
> steel for new fuel tanks.  Box cars were used for shipping  barrels
in and
> out for motor oils and lube oils.  Some refineries got their crude
supply
> by tank car while others used pipelines and/or ships.  Finished
goods went
> out in tank cars or barrels and canned goods in box cars.
>
I can add something, though I caution you that my response is based on
my
admittedly limited knowledge of petroleum refining, marketing, and
transportation acquired largely through books on that subject, not by
direct involvement in the industry, and by some observations of
several
refineries that I have driven by twice a day for about 10 years during the
last 25 years, more or less.

As alluded to by Peter, it's very important to know your era of
interest
before one can attempt to give something better than a generic answer
to
your question about railroad traffic to and from a refinery.  Of equal
importance is the location of the refinery.  Since the 1940s,
practically
all refineries in North America have been so located that the preponderance
-- if not all -- of their crude arrives by pipeline. Similarly, most of
their product stream leaves by product pipeline, if
the
refinery is remote from its markets, or by truck, if it is in a urban area.
My observations of western refineries and the information I
have
accumulated shows most western refineries located adjacent to a
producing
field, and shipping their product mostly by product pipeline and
truck,
or, if located in an urban area, they ship most of their product by truck.
In the eastern U.S., with its greater population density, there is
even
less economic reason to ship the principal products of a refinery --
gasoline, diesel fuel, and heating oil, by rail.

Refineries do of course ship some product by rail, principally to
small
cities not served by a products pipeline or their own refinery.  Small
towns in the 1950s received much of their refined petroleum by rail,
but
by the 1970s trucks could more economically serve that market.  Rail
movements persist where the city is large enough (and thus demands
enough
refined petroleum) that rail movements and the construction and
operation
of a receiving/distribution terminal in that city becomes economic,
but
not so large that it becomes cheaper to build a products pipeline to
that
city.  As an example, the D&RGW has moved gasoline, diesel fuel, and
heating oil from the Conoco refinery at Denver to Grand Junction,
about
250 miles, since the 1920s as a daily movement of 30-50 cars, but has
completely lost the single-car shipments it made during the 1950s to dozens
of small towns in Colorado and Utah to truck.

A refinery's product stream also greatly affects whether it will use
rail
transportation to any appreciable degree.  A small refinery as you describe
will likely confine itself to making products it can profitably sell in its
immediate vicinity, that is, gasoline, diesel
fuel,
heating oil, and asphalt, all of which will leave by truck for
delivery
right to the filling station or ultimate consumer, obviating the need
to
ship by rail to a distribution point, unload the car, store the
product,
reload a truck, etc.

It helps to understand what happens within a refinery to picture what
it
is likely to ship (and unfortunately, my knowledge of all this is
cursory).  After removing gross impurities, the first refining step
is distillation, producing straight-run gasoline, naptha, kerosene,
and
diesel fuel.  The gasoline and diesel fuel are blended and further
processed before leaving the refinery.  The kerosene may be further refined
into jet fuel.  The naptha in a more modern refinery is run through a
catalytic reformer to convert it to gasoline, or if the
refinery
is located appropriately the naptha may become a petrochemical feedstock.

The heavy oils left over from this first distillation are either
blended
and sold as residual oil (the old days) or are run through additional steps
of vacuum distillation to separate out lubricants, asphalts, and waxes from
lighter "gas oil" that becomes feedstock for more valuable products, e.g.,
gasoline.  Thermal cracking of the heavy oils is used
to
make petroleum coke, the ultimate breakdown product.  Naptha and gas
oils
are run through catalytic cracking to make more gasoline, the most
desirable product of a refinery in almost every case.  Still gasses
are
used to provide process heat to run the place.

In 1935 the average refinery produced 44 barrels of gasoline and 27 barrels
of residual fuel from every 100 barrels of feedstock.  By the 1980s that
had progressed to 51 barrels of better-quality gasoline, 7 barrels of jet
fuel, and only 6 barrels of residual oil, from every
100
barrels of crude.

Few refineries except the very largest or those that are very
specialized
produce lubricating oils or petrochemical feedstocks; it is just not
economic to do this on a small scale.  A small refinery might save the
fraction that is useful for further refining into lubricating oil, and ship
this (usually by rail), to one of the specialized refineries that produces
lubricants.  Similarly it might ship naptha to a
petrochemical
refinery (naptha was, and maybe still is, the basic feedstock for
petrochemicals along with nethane, ethane, propane, and butane), but
only
if that was more profitable than converting the naptha into gasoline.

Without knowing era or location, here's what you would likely see a
small
refinery shipping by rail:

1.  A small portion of its gasoline, diesel fuel, and heating oil (residual
oil) that it produces to cities and towns too distant to be economically
served by truck -- much less so now than in the past --
by
tankcar.

2.  Possibly an occasional tankcar of lubricating oil feedstock to
refineries that produce lubricating oils, and possibly tankcars of
naptha
as petrochemical feedstock.

3.  Possibly carloads of petroleum coke (usually shipped in covered
hoppers, sometimes open-top hoppers) to foundries, smelters, and other
manufacturing concerns that for a variety of reasons need solid fuel
instead of liquid or gaseous fuel for their processes (but not to
steel
mills as petroleum coke is too soft for blast furnace use).

4.  Occasional carloads of asphalt to road construction projects, by
tankcar.

5.  Jet fuel, if we're looking at a relatively recent era, by tankcar.

6.  LPG, if we're looking at a relatively recent era, by tankcar.

The refinery will receive:

1.  A steady number of tankcars of tetraethyl lead, if we're looking
at
the pre-1970s, as a gasoline additive.

2.  Methanol, ethanol, or other gasoline blending agents, if we're
looking
more recently.

While it's nice to imagine on one's model railroad the refinery
receiving
carloads of pipe, and boxcars of empty drums, oil cans, and loose
pallets,
the reality is that few small refineries are going to be running a
package
business alongside their principle business of making gasoline.  And
for
the most part, major construction projects that would require carloads of
pipe, tanks, stills, cracking units, etc., are not going to be a regular
occurance at a small refinery; and if such construction does occur, very
likely all of what goes into it is going to be fabricated
by a
nearby steel fabricator and trucked to the refinery -- *that* industry will
be receiving the carloads of steel from the steel mill, not the refinery
directly (an important point, I think).  Sophisticated
components
such as cracking towers are fabricated by a handful of firms who specialize
in such work and often shipped by rail to their site of installation, but
these shipments are rare _in_the_extreme_ and will
only
be seen when a refinery is being built new or radically remodelled.  I have
in all the times I have looked at refineries being switched never seen
anything other than a tankcar going in or out, with the exception
of
those refineries that produce coke, in which case one sees covered and open
hoppers.

Mark William Hemphill





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During the 1960s, the Wabash had a lot of boxcars that were outfitted with
cardboard grain doors reinforced with horizontal steel strapping.   These
doors were  installed with nails driven through the steel straps into the
doorframe's wooden nailing strips.

When these doors were ripped out, the receivers were supposed to remove the
entire grain door including the straps, but a lot of them left the remains
in the car.  What was really bad was when some knucklehead closed the door
with pieces of strapping hanging out of the doorway.

Our local crews and car inspectors were supposed to watch for them, but
sometimes one would get by everybody to become a real hazard. Can you
imagine the damage a 7 or 8-foot piece of strapping could do as it whipped
around in the air stream of a moving train?   Wow!  A good reason to be
standing back from a passing train!




Jim Hediger, Senior Editor
Model Railroader magazine
P. O. Box 1612, Waukesha, WI 53187-1612
414- 796-8776 ext. 452,  FAX 414-796-1142

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Peter Bowers                                  To Reply: click on
Owen Sound, Ont. Canada           mailto:pbeservx@...

>From: SD9E@...
>
>Many, many grain doors were only used once as they were, ah, lost at the
>unloading point.  I remember seeing stock pens on employee's farms made out of
>the wood parts and many other adaptations.  I particularly remember the
>plywood doors being very popular for other uses.  They had large distinctive
>holes cut in them but by using two layers of "found" doors the holes would be
>covered.  Jeff Pape, Gresham, OR


Paper doors also found "other" uses, they were fairly water proof so
they made good patches for roofs and other such stuff.

Also very good for throwing on the dirty floor for crawling under
stuff, they were slick enough that they were almost better than
using a creeper.


http://www.skypoint.com/~hudsonl

At 07:50 PM 1/25/99 -0800, you wrote:
>From: "Bruce R. Brantner, Sr." <brantner@...>
>
>The question was raised as to what happens to the wood grain liners (doors):
>
>Martin Loftin in his article on "Grain Doors For Box Cars" in Railmodel
>Journal, November 1990, explains how the doors were made.  A paper liner
>was used between the outside door and the interior.  This was then
>strengthen by wood planking on the interior.  So the wooden part of the
>grain was planking and not a solidly constructed door.
>
>Loftin, in his article, points out that in the process of unloading the
>paper was torn away from the top and the planks were removed one by one.  I
>would think that knowing how indifferant the workers would be to the
>recycling of the grain doors, the scraps were probably left in the box car.
> Or the better planks were kept for some use.  In either case I doubt that
>the doors were recyclable.
>
>Bruce
>
>
I doubt if grain door built that way were recycled either.  When the
cardboard doors were introduced, a board was put at the bottom the middle(I
think??) and the top of the grain door.  When the car was emptied, the door
was broken out and the boards generally disposed of.

A general question to the list.....what methods do you remember being used
to provide grain doors and in what era?




Peter Bowers                                  To Reply: click on
Owen Sound, Ont. Canada           mailto:pbeservx@...

Many, many grain doors were only used once as they were, ah, lost at the
unloading point.  I remember seeing stock pens on employee's farms made out of
the wood parts and many other adaptations.  I particularly remember the
plywood doors being very popular for other uses.  They had large distinctive
holes cut in them but by using two layers of "found" doors the holes would be
covered.  Jeff Pape, Gresham, OR

Well we have been going for just over 24 hours and we now have 101
subscribers.  Thank you fou you fabulous interest in the group.  I hope we
can provide all the info you need on operations and industries for your
modelling projects.  For anyone interested in industrial but not just for
modelling purposes, this list is open for those discussions also.

Again thanks for the support!!

Peter Bowers
List Owner


Peter Bowers                                  To Reply: click on
Owen Sound, Ont. Canada           mailto:pbeservx@...

At 08:07 PM 1/25/99 -0600, you wrote:
>From: Mark William Hemphill <mhemph1@...>
>
>>From my admittedly naive perspective, the various posts on this subject
>are tending to conflate all railroads, all locations, and all times, when
>it is clear from the same posts there are different practices at different
>times in different places.  I would really appreciate some identification
>at least to timeframe on the grain door practices:  when did paper replace
>wood, anywhere?
>

I would think it was about the early 60's when the reinforced cardboard
grain doors replaced the wooden grain doors on CNR and CPR.

>As for throwing the doors away, I can imagine that happening to paper
>doors, but surely wood doors, if not returned to the shipper, were
>not thrown out, but were avidly sought for minor construction and repair
>around farms and towns, or at least used for firewood.
>
Apparently there are a lot of houses in Owen Sound in the general area of
where the cars were boarded that have shed and other additions built of
former grain doors.


Peter Bowers                                  To Reply: click on
Owen Sound, Ont. Canada           mailto:pbeservx@...

From my admittedly naive perspective, the various posts on this subject
are tending to conflate all railroads, all locations, and all times, when
it is clear from the same posts there are different practices at different
times in different places.  I would really appreciate some identification
at least to timeframe on the grain door practices:  when did paper replace
wood, anywhere?

As for throwing the doors away, I can imagine that happening to paper
doors, but surely wood doors, if not returned to the shipper, were
not thrown out, but were avidly sought for minor construction and repair
around farms and towns, or at least used for firewood.

Mark William Hemphill

I have a numerous collection of Steel Coil Cars.  For my waybill system I
need to load these cars somewhere.  My route is the Wisconsin Central in
Wisconsin, Era is Present Day.  I am looking for either what type of building
is used, what type of equipment is used to load and unload, and where I can
load and unload these types of cars for the steel coil loads.

Thanks in advance,



Steve Clasen
Stevens Point, WI

Member of the Central Wisconsin Model Railroaders
Member of the National Model Railroaders Association
Member of the Soo Line Technical & Historical Society
Official, Wisconsin Interscholastic Athletic Association
Avid Railfan WCL,CPRS,BNSF and All other Railroads
Creator, Wisconsin Railfan Railroad Page
http://www.trainweb.org/wisrail/index.htm
Maintainer, Northland Lutheran High School Website
http://www.nlhs.org/
Mailto: clasen@...
My ICQ# 10192477

The question was raised as to what happens to the wood grain liners (doors):

>   How were the wooden doors normally handled at small elevators and
>   mills in the east which may have received only three or four carloads
>     of grain in a month?   For instance, there was one large flour mill
>    and 5 or 6 small elevators and feed mills located on the B&O's Old
>     Main Line between Ellicott City and Frederick.  There seem to be a
>     number of possibilities:

Martin Loftin in his article on "Grain Doors For Box Cars" in Railmodel
Journal, November 1990, explains how the doors were made.  A paper liner
was used between the outside door and the interior.  This was then
strengthen by wood planking on the interior.  So the wooden part of the
grain was planking and not a solidly constructed door.

Loftin, in his article, points out that in the process of unloading the
paper was torn away from the top and the planks were removed one by one.  I
would think that knowing how indifferant the workers would be to the
recycling of the grain doors, the scraps were probably left in the box car.
  Or the better planks were kept for some use.  In either case I doubt that
the doors were recyclable.

Bruce

Canadian National and Canadian Pacific had modulized grain doors built out
of double thickness boards.  Three modules filled a doorway.  The double
thickness overlapped boards prevented grain from leaking out.  Pre built,
these modules could be installed very quickly using few nails.  Paper doors
later replaced the wooden doors.


At 05:21 PM 1/25/99 -0800, you wrote:
>From: lawrence jackman <ljack70117@...>
>
>All the wood grain doors I ever saw did not have to "be built". They were
nothing
>more than flat  boards 9 2X12s nailed one above each until the door way was
>almost filled.
>Later paper doors were used. these were two pieces of heavy brown paper glued
>together  with metal perforated banding iron straps between them
>
>Peter Bowers wrote:
>> Ocasionally, if no cars were returning to the elevator, an empty would be
>> spotted for loading of the grain doors.  One thing though, the grain doors
>> were returned quite regularly as the railway didn't like having to build
>> them all the time.
>>
Peter Bowers                                  To Reply: click on
Owen Sound, Ont. Canada           mailto:pbeservx@...

All the wood grain doors I ever saw did not have to "be built". They were
nothing
more than flat  boards 9 2X12s nailed one above each until the door way was
almost filled.
Later paper doors were used. these were two pieces of heavy brown paper glued
together  with metal perforated banding iron straps between them

Peter Bowers wrote:

> From: Peter Bowers <pbeservx@...>
>
> At 05:16 PM 1/25/99, you wrote:
> >From: Peter Bowers <pbeservx@...>
> >
> >This originally was posted on Layout Design SIG' list.
> >
> >From: Don  Florwick <florwick@...>
> >
> >In the early 90's Dan Holbrook did an excellent article in Rail Model
> >     Journal on grain doors.  The article described the reclamation and
> >     handling of wooden grain doors at elevators and terminals which handled
> >     large quantities of bulk grain in boxcars.   The article indicated that
> >     carloads of wooden grain doors would be shipped back to originating
> >     terminals.
> >
> >     How were the wooden doors normally handled at small elevators and
> >     mills in the east which may have received only three or four carloads
> >     of grain in a month?   For instance, there was one large flour mill
> >     and 5 or 6 small elevators and feed mills located on the B&O's Old
> >     Main Line between Ellicott City and Frederick.  There seem to be a
> >     number of possibilities:
> >
> >     Would each mill ship a handful of doors back to the Midwest in a
> >     nearly empty car?
> >
> >     Would the cars have been sent to a yard where the doors could be
> >     consolidated into carload lots for return to the Midwest?
> >
> >     Would a railroad such as the B&O send a car from mill to mill to
> >     collect the doors for shipment west?
> >
> >     Or would wooden doors that far away from home just been thrown away?
> >
> >
> >
> We had a lot of smaller mills around our area served by rail and the main
> supply elevator was in Owen Sound.  Grain doors were brought back in cars
> being routed back for reloading.  If the original car was reroute with
> flour or other mill product the grain doors were pulled out and piled until
> a car was returned to the elevator for reloading.  At that time, all the
> grain doors that were piled up were sent back to the boarding sidings at
> Owen Sound for reuse.  As the car had been loaded with grain southbound,
> only one grain door in that car had to be replaced prior to cleaning and
> reboarding.
>
> Ocasionally, if no cars were returning to the elevator, an empty would be
> spotted for loading of the grain doors.  One thing though, the grain doors
> were returned quite regularly as the railway didn't like having to build
> them all the time.
>
> While this was the way Canadian National handled used grain door, I can't
> guarantee that all other railways did the same.
>
> Peter
>
> Peter Bowers                                  To Reply: click on
> Owen Sound, Ont. Canada           mailto:pbeservx@...
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and
> select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.

On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Peter Bowers wrote:

> >     I am new to the list and would like to ask for guidance on modeling a
> >     small refinery.  I'd like to know what type of rolling stock goes in
> >     and out of a refinery.  Perhaps some help as to where to find track
> >     plans for a refinery.
> >
> >     Mike - NJ
> >
> Mike,
>
> Depending on the era you would see different inbound traffic to refineries.
>  Flat cars with machinery, fractionating towers, flat cars and gondolas of
> steel for new fuel tanks.  Box cars were used for shipping  barrels in and
> out for motor oils and lube oils.  Some refineries got their crude supply
> by tank car while others used pipelines and/or ships.  Finished goods went
> out in tank cars or barrels and canned goods in box cars.
>
I can add something, though I caution you that my response is based on my
admittedly limited knowledge of petroleum refining, marketing, and
transportation acquired largely through books on that subject, not by
direct involvement in the industry, and by some observations of several
refineries that I have driven by twice a day for about 10 years during
the last 25 years, more or less.

As alluded to by Peter, it's very important to know your era of interest
before one can attempt to give something better than a generic answer to
your question about railroad traffic to and from a refinery.  Of equal
importance is the location of the refinery.  Since the 1940s, practically
all refineries in North America have been so located that the
preponderance -- if not all -- of their crude arrives by pipeline.
Similarly, most of their product stream leaves by product pipeline, if the
refinery is remote from its markets, or by truck, if it is in a urban
area.  My observations of western refineries and the information I have
accumulated shows most western refineries located adjacent to a producing
field, and shipping their product mostly by product pipeline and truck,
or, if located in an urban area, they ship most of their product by truck.
In the eastern U.S., with its greater population density, there is even
less economic reason to ship the principal products of a refinery --
gasoline, diesel fuel, and heating oil, by rail.

Refineries do of course ship some product by rail, principally to small
cities not served by a products pipeline or their own refinery.  Small
towns in the 1950s received much of their refined petroleum by rail, but
by the 1970s trucks could more economically serve that market.  Rail
movements persist where the city is large enough (and thus demands enough
refined petroleum) that rail movements and the construction and operation
of a receiving/distribution terminal in that city becomes economic, but
not so large that it becomes cheaper to build a products pipeline to that
city.  As an example, the D&RGW has moved gasoline, diesel fuel, and
heating oil from the Conoco refinery at Denver to Grand Junction, about
250 miles, since the 1920s as a daily movement of 30-50 cars, but has
completely lost the single-car shipments it made during the 1950s to
dozens of small towns in Colorado and Utah to truck.

A refinery's product stream also greatly affects whether it will use rail
transportation to any appreciable degree.  A small refinery as you
describe will likely confine itself to making products it can
profitably sell in its immediate vicinity, that is, gasoline, diesel fuel,
heating oil, and asphalt, all of which will leave by truck for delivery
right to the filling station or ultimate consumer, obviating the need to
ship by rail to a distribution point, unload the car, store the product,
reload a truck, etc.

It helps to understand what happens within a refinery to picture what it
is likely to ship (and unfortunately, my knowledge of all this is
cursory).  After removing gross impurities, the first refining step
is distillation, producing straight-run gasoline, naptha, kerosene, and
diesel fuel.  The gasoline and diesel fuel are blended and further
processed before leaving the refinery.  The kerosene may be further
refined into jet fuel.  The naptha in a more modern refinery is run
through a catalytic reformer to convert it to gasoline, or if the refinery
is located appropriately the naptha may become a petrochemical feedstock.

The heavy oils left over from this first distillation are either blended
and sold as residual oil (the old days) or are run through additional
steps of vacuum distillation to separate out lubricants, asphalts, and
waxes from lighter "gas oil" that becomes feedstock for more valuable
products, e.g., gasoline.  Thermal cracking of the heavy oils is used to
make petroleum coke, the ultimate breakdown product.  Naptha and gas oils
are run through catalytic cracking to make more gasoline, the most
desirable product of a refinery in almost every case.  Still gasses are
used to provide process heat to run the place.

In 1935 the average refinery produced 44 barrels of gasoline and 27
barrels of residual fuel from every 100 barrels of feedstock.  By the
1980s that had progressed to 51 barrels of better-quality gasoline, 7
barrels of jet fuel, and only 6 barrels of residual oil, from every 100
barrels of crude.

Few refineries except the very largest or those that are very specialized
produce lubricating oils or petrochemical feedstocks; it is just not
economic to do this on a small scale.  A small refinery might save the
fraction that is useful for further refining into lubricating oil, and
ship this (usually by rail), to one of the specialized refineries that
produces lubricants.  Similarly it might ship naptha to a petrochemical
refinery (naptha was, and maybe still is, the basic feedstock for
petrochemicals along with nethane, ethane, propane, and butane), but only
if that was more profitable than converting the naptha into gasoline.

Without knowing era or location, here's what you would likely see a small
refinery shipping by rail:

1.  A small portion of its gasoline, diesel fuel, and heating oil
(residual oil) that it produces to cities and towns too distant to be
economically served by truck -- much less so now than in the past -- by
tankcar.

2.  Possibly an occasional tankcar of lubricating oil feedstock to
refineries that produce lubricating oils, and possibly tankcars of naptha
as petrochemical feedstock.

3.  Possibly carloads of petroleum coke (usually shipped in covered
hoppers, sometimes open-top hoppers) to foundries, smelters, and other
manufacturing concerns that for a variety of reasons need solid fuel
instead of liquid or gaseous fuel for their processes (but not to steel
mills as petroleum coke is too soft for blast furnace use).

4.  Occasional carloads of asphalt to road construction projects, by
tankcar.

5.  Jet fuel, if we're looking at a relatively recent era, by tankcar.

6.  LPG, if we're looking at a relatively recent era, by tankcar.

The refinery will receive:

1.  A steady number of tankcars of tetraethyl lead, if we're looking at
the pre-1970s, as a gasoline additive.

2.  Methanol, ethanol, or other gasoline blending agents, if we're looking
more recently.

While it's nice to imagine on one's model railroad the refinery receiving
carloads of pipe, and boxcars of empty drums, oil cans, and loose pallets,
the reality is that few small refineries are going to be running a package
business alongside their principle business of making gasoline.  And for
the most part, major construction projects that would require carloads
of pipe, tanks, stills, cracking units, etc., are not going to be a
regular occurance at a small refinery; and if such construction does
occur, very likely all of what goes into it is going to be fabricated by a
nearby steel fabricator and trucked to the refinery -- *that* industry
will be receiving the carloads of steel from the steel mill, not the
refinery directly (an important point, I think).  Sophisticated components
such as cracking towers are fabricated by a handful of firms who
specialize in such work and often shipped by rail to their site of
installation, but these shipments are rare _in_the_extreme_ and will only
be seen when a refinery is being built new or radically remodelled.  I
have in all the times I have looked at refineries being switched never
seen anything other than a tankcar going in or out, with the exception of
those refineries that produce coke, in which case one sees covered and
open hoppers.

Mark William Hemphill

At 05:16 PM 1/25/99, you wrote:
>From: Peter Bowers <pbeservx@...>
>
>This originally was posted on Layout Design SIG' list.
>
>From: Don  Florwick <florwick@...>
>
>In the early 90's Dan Holbrook did an excellent article in Rail Model
>     Journal on grain doors.  The article described the reclamation and
>     handling of wooden grain doors at elevators and terminals which handled
>     large quantities of bulk grain in boxcars.   The article indicated that
>     carloads of wooden grain doors would be shipped back to originating
>     terminals.
>
>     How were the wooden doors normally handled at small elevators and
>     mills in the east which may have received only three or four carloads
>     of grain in a month?   For instance, there was one large flour mill
>     and 5 or 6 small elevators and feed mills located on the B&O's Old
>     Main Line between Ellicott City and Frederick.  There seem to be a
>     number of possibilities:
>
>     Would each mill ship a handful of doors back to the Midwest in a
>     nearly empty car?
>
>     Would the cars have been sent to a yard where the doors could be
>     consolidated into carload lots for return to the Midwest?
>
>     Would a railroad such as the B&O send a car from mill to mill to
>     collect the doors for shipment west?
>
>     Or would wooden doors that far away from home just been thrown away?
>
>
>
We had a lot of smaller mills around our area served by rail and the main
supply elevator was in Owen Sound.  Grain doors were brought back in cars
being routed back for reloading.  If the original car was reroute with
flour or other mill product the grain doors were pulled out and piled until
a car was returned to the elevator for reloading.  At that time, all the
grain doors that were piled up were sent back to the boarding sidings at
Owen Sound for reuse.  As the car had been loaded with grain southbound,
only one grain door in that car had to be replaced prior to cleaning and
reboarding.

Ocasionally, if no cars were returning to the elevator, an empty would be
spotted for loading of the grain doors.  One thing though, the grain doors
were returned quite regularly as the railway didn't like having to build
them all the time.

While this was the way Canadian National handled used grain door, I can't
guarantee that all other railways did the same.

Peter


Peter Bowers                                  To Reply: click on
Owen Sound, Ont. Canada           mailto:pbeservx@...

This originally was posted on Layout Design SIG' list.

From: Don  Florwick <florwick@...>

In the early 90's Dan Holbrook did an excellent article in Rail Model
      Journal on grain doors.  The article described the reclamation and
      handling of wooden grain doors at elevators and terminals which handled
      large quantities of bulk grain in boxcars.   The article indicated that
      carloads of wooden grain doors would be shipped back to originating
      terminals.

      How were the wooden doors normally handled at small elevators and
      mills in the east which may have received only three or four carloads
      of grain in a month?   For instance, there was one large flour mill
      and 5 or 6 small elevators and feed mills located on the B&O's Old
      Main Line between Ellicott City and Frederick.  There seem to be a
      number of possibilities:

      Would each mill ship a handful of doors back to the Midwest in a
      nearly empty car?

      Would the cars have been sent to a yard where the doors could be
      consolidated into carload lots for return to the Midwest?

      Would a railroad such as the B&O send a car from mill to mill to
      collect the doors for shipment west?

      Or would wooden doors that far away from home just been thrown away?

Yes, and also wood pallets to put under the goods that are shipped in
boxcars.

Peter Bowers wrote:
>
> From: Peter Bowers <pbeservx@...>
>
> At 09:13 AM 1/25/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >From: <Mike_Maurigi@...>
> >
> >     Hello:
> >
> >     I am new to the list and would like to ask for guidance on modeling a
> >     small refinery.  I'd like to know what type of rolling stock goes in
> >     and out of a refinery.  Perhaps some help as to where to find track
> >     plans for a refinery.
> >
> >     Mike - NJ
> >
> Mike,
>
> Depending on the era you would see different inbound traffic to refineries.
>  Flat cars with machinery, fractionating towers, flat cars and gondolas of
> steel for new fuel tanks.  Box cars were used for shipping  barrels in and
> out for motor oils and lube oils.  Some refineries got their crude supply
> by tank car while others used pipelines and/or ships.  Finished goods went
> out in tank cars or barrels and canned goods in box cars.
>
> Oil refineries are not one of the industries I know a lot about but others
> on the list can probably give you more.
>
> Peter Bowers                                  To Reply: click on
> Owen Sound, Ont. Canada           mailto:pbeservx@...
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and
> select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.

At 09:13 AM 1/25/99 -0500, you wrote:
>From: <Mike_Maurigi@...>
>
>     Hello:
>
>     I am new to the list and would like to ask for guidance on modeling a
>     small refinery.  I'd like to know what type of rolling stock goes in
>     and out of a refinery.  Perhaps some help as to where to find track
>     plans for a refinery.
>
>     Mike - NJ
>
Mike,

Depending on the era you would see different inbound traffic to refineries.
  Flat cars with machinery, fractionating towers, flat cars and gondolas of
steel for new fuel tanks.  Box cars were used for shipping  barrels in and
out for motor oils and lube oils.  Some refineries got their crude supply
by tank car while others used pipelines and/or ships.  Finished goods went
out in tank cars or barrels and canned goods in box cars.

Oil refineries are not one of the industries I know a lot about but others
on the list can probably give you more.


Peter Bowers                                  To Reply: click on
Owen Sound, Ont. Canada           mailto:pbeservx@...

Hello:

      I am new to the list and would like to ask for guidance on modeling a
      small refinery.  I'd like to know what type of rolling stock goes in
      and out of a refinery.  Perhaps some help as to where to find track
      plans for a refinery.

      Regards,

      Mike - NJ

how do I find the casting list? I looked but could not find it
Larry
Miracle Castings Inc. wrote:

> From: "Miracle Castings Inc." <miracle-castings@...>
>
> Hi All!  The relationships between industrial operations and railways have
> always fascinated me, so I'm looking forward to the content of this list.
> My name is Pat Lawless, and I work for Miracle Castings Inc., a model
> railway manufacturer.  I also moderate the Casting List on Onelist, which
> discusses casting, moldmaking, and model making in various mediums.  I hope
> I can contribute some useful info to this forum, and learn a lot too.
> Regards!
>
> Pat Lawless
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and
> select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.

Hi All!  The relationships between industrial operations and railways have
always fascinated me, so I'm looking forward to the content of this list.
My name is Pat Lawless, and I work for Miracle Castings Inc., a model
railway manufacturer.  I also moderate the Casting List on Onelist, which
discusses casting, moldmaking, and model making in various mediums.  I hope
I can contribute some useful info to this forum, and learn a lot too.
Regards!

Pat Lawless

For you that joined before the welcome message was in service here is the
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