On Nov 22, 2009, at 7:16 PM, secatalano wrote:

> Hello Group,
>
> I have a question: since trolleys are broad gauge

let me be the nth to say, "Eh?"
All the San Francisco streetcars, including the subway cars, are
56.5 inch gauge.

> how do we model that in
> HO Scale..most trolleys are ran on HO Scale track...but what would the
> true scale be if modelled? I am planning a city track plan and do not
> wish to connect to standard gauge? Any thoughts? Thanks - Scott


See above.
--
Nolan Hinshaw, native Californian since 1944
"[Vista is] about as stable as a one-legged elephant on a skateboard"
C. Daniels

Hi Drake,

This may help regarding grain shipment by boxcar in your era:
http://www.canadianbranchline.com/grain1.htm

and here are a couple of posts from my blog, albeit from after your era, in the
waning days of grain shipment by boxcar:

http://tracksidetreasure.blogspot.com/2009/02/cn-grain-boxcars.html

http://tracksidetreasure.blogspot.com/2009/01/cp-grain-boxcars.html

Eric Gagnon
Kingston, Ontario, Canada
Just blogged A day of Trains at Portage, 1980 at:
http://tracksidetreasure.blogspot.com

--- In Ry-ops-industrialSIG@yahoogroups.com, "hawk53965" <drake.bixby@...>
wrote:
>
> Our Free-Mo group is modeling the 1930's to 1950's in the midwest. Grain will
be a common load. Covered hoppers may have been used toward the end of that era,
but I think box cars equiped with "grain doors" were most common, especially in
the early years.
>
> I remember the grain doors. The cars had brackets inside mounted to the walls
near the doors. 2X6's (or so) fitted into the brackets to make a barrier so when
the sliding door was opened, the grain stayed inside. I recall a large hose
being used to get the grain INTO the car with air flow pushing it. I'm not sure
if it could "suction" the grain out too, but it seemed like it could. The blower
and roof top "cyclone" were HUGE.
>
> My question is what types of box cars could be used. Were outside braced,
single sheathed cars strong enough? Or were double sheathed cars needed? I want
to be as accurate as I can. All of the cars I rember in the 60's and 60's were
steel on the outside. But in the 30's I'd guess a lot of wood sided cars were
used.
> Thank you,
>
> Drake Bixby
>

Thanks David,  That is good information to have.  I wondered about
using an arm to mount a pull back cable on.  I'm sure there were lots
of ways devised to speed up unloading of railway cars just as were
developed for marine use.

Peter

At 11:57 PM 23/11/2009, you wrote:

>Quoting from my copy of the 1921 Material Handling Cyclopedia:
>
>Box Car Unloaders
>
>The unloading of boxcars is an expensive operation when done by hand and
>several types of machines have been devised for performing this work
>more economically. They may be divided into three classes, as follows:
>
>1. Scraper type - using a power operated scraper or hoe for scrapinf
>material to the car door.
>
>2. Air Suction type - the material being sucked into an air hose in the
>same manner as with a oneumatic sweeper.
>
>3. - Car Tilting type - in which the cars are tilted on a cradle so that
>the material will run out.
>
>It goes on to describe the scraper type . . . the winding drum has a
>clutch arrangement which allows  the rope to be unwound easily as the
>operator moves the shovel back into the pile, but, as soon as the th
>pull on the rope ceases, the clutch is automatically thrown in thus
>winding up the rope and pulling the shovel forward . . .
>
>In a more recent design of the scraper type box car unloader the use of
>manual labor for drwaing the scarperthrough the material and back into
>the car has been eliominated. The scraper cable or rope is passed arpund
>sheaves mounted on the end of an adjustable arm which can be extended
>back into the ends of the car. Then, by pulling on the ropesby means of
>a power winch the scarper can be moved back and forth in the car. This
>arrangement makes it possible to haul the scraper into the ends of the
>car and to scrap the material out without the necessity of the operator
>going back into the car.
>
>David A. Petersen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>The Ops-Ind list - The place to discuss rail operations and industries.
>                     Ry-ops-industrialSIG@...
>
>                    Visit our extended files area at:
>                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OPS-INDfiles/Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Quoting from my copy of the 1921 Material Handling Cyclopedia:

Box Car Unloaders

The unloading of boxcars is an expensive operation when done by hand and
several types of machines have been devised for performing this work
more economically. They may be divided into three classes, as follows:

1. Scraper type - using a power operated scraper or hoe for scrapinf
material to the car door.

2. Air Suction type - the material being sucked into an air hose in the
same manner as with a oneumatic sweeper.

3. - Car Tilting type - in which the cars are tilted on a cradle so that
the material will run out.

It goes on to describe the scraper type . . . the winding drum has a
clutch arrangement which allows  the rope to be unwound easily as the
operator moves the shovel back into the pile, but, as soon as the th
pull on the rope ceases, the clutch is automatically thrown in thus
winding up the rope and pulling the shovel forward . . .

In a more recent design of the scraper type box car unloader the use of
manual labor for drwaing the scarperthrough the material and back into
the car has been eliominated. The scraper cable or rope is passed arpund
sheaves mounted on the end of an adjustable arm which can be extended
back into the ends of the car. Then, by pulling on the ropesby means of
a power winch the scarper can be moved back and forth in the car. This
arrangement makes it possible to haul the scraper into the ends of the
car and to scrap the material out without the necessity of the operator
going back into the car.

David A. Petersen











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Going by memory, there was a fairly detailed article in a model magazine
on grain doors.  I think it may have been a relatively late Mainline
Modeler.

Steve Bartlett

Peter's information brings back memories of my youth growing up in
Lucknow.  From 1965 to 1968, during summer vacation, I worked for my
father's friend Jack Treleaven who owned not only the Treleaven
Milling company in town but elevators in Ripley and Lucknow.

Many months ago, in the files section of this group, I posted a photo
of the Lucknow elevator taken in the early 80's and as can be seen in
the picture, a whistle post was still standing so it is not to long
after the rails were removed.

Peter's observation is correct and I think in the summers I worked, I
can not recall a single wooden-sided boxcar. All were steel.

What was interesting about the Lucknow and Ripley operations was that
the larger 130,000 capacity cars could only be loaded to about
120,000 lbs as the there was a weight restriction on the bridge at
Wingham and a few other places along the line.  The small boxcars, (I
think they were 110,000 lb capacity) were also used but we didn't
like them as much because of their lower capacity.  A couple of
times, we received some stern warnings from the railway about our
loading transgressions with the threat we'd have to go and unload the
overage at some siding along the way.

The Ripley elevator used a gravity loading process, the same as
elevators here on the prairies but the Lucknow operation had a blower
system driven by a 60hp motor. A V-spout to was used to blow grain
into both end of the cars at the same time but it was slower than the
gravity system.  When we were loading cars, you could hear the whine
of the blower all over the town and if you had to climb into the car
to direct the flow of grain with a shovel, it was deafening.  Back
then we were to stupid to think of wearing hearing protection. And
since we ran until all the incoming trucks were cleared and the bins
in a better situation to manage the various grades and moisture
content of the, we often were loading cars throughout the night
pissing-off those who lived nearby.

As for cooperage, most of the cars came with wooden doors already in
place although there were times where we need to do the job.  And
those "grain doors" as we called them were rough and many a painful
sliver was deposited from them.

Most of the grain that we loaded was for domestic use.  Wheat shipped
to Humberstone and barley to Canada Malting in Toronto. At that time,
Garnet Henderson (Paul Henderson's of Canada-Russia '72 fame) was the
station agent and we kept him busier with ordering cars, preparing
waybills and always finding out where the G-D train was to move the
loaded cars.

During the peak harvest time, the Ripley elevator shipped about sixty
cars a summer and about twenty-five from Lucknow. And due to the
siding capacity in both towns, there was a lot more switching that
normally carried out...which was fine by me especially when stock
cars got into the mix on a priority basis.

These summer shipments always gave the train crews a headache since
the harvest happened just as the grass between the tracks and along
the right of way was at its highest and always fouling the rail.

I remember the sectionmen spraying weed kill one morning and that
day's eastbound train couldn't make it more than a mile out of town
up a long incline east of Lucknow as far as Purvis's lake.  They had
to back into town and leave about ten or so cars including a
combination coach/baggage car behind 'till the next day.  I can still
hear the heated arguement between the train crew and Alf Ritchie
(Peter you may remember this man) who was in charge of the spraying
on that occasion.

I do remember some years after Lucknow's elevator closed that there
were still cars shipped from Ripley. The last train I saw with grain
was one summer when we were visiting and a GP7 was pulling a few
hopper cars through Lucknow towards Wingham.  I'm sure they were
loaded with much less than their 200.000 capacity in view of the
degradation of the line at that time.

Sadly both elevators as are gone. Lucknow was torn down about ten
years ago, a victim of disuse and old age. It survived past the 100
year mark. The Ripley elevator had a serious fire many years ago and
I'm not sure what is there now.

A question always lingers. What would the branchlines look like today
with, among other things, improvements in agriculture, diversity in
food manufacturing and the growth in grain and other crops in the
region?  Perhaps there would be more investment by larger grain
companies in a variety of operations needing rail service.

Bill Chester
Brandon, MB



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Doug,
They are pretty freindly. They start most operations late in the afternoon
and work into
the night; after most of their customers have  closed/shutdown. It is easy
to follow them around,
but I'd do it during the  summer. If you have the articles, you have the
maps with the major
customers. What else do you need?
Jon C.
SP Inyo Sub.
Beaumont  Ind. Term.
Acid for all, Soda for Glass


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thanks, Jon! I was looking for how many trains they run per day as I'm
trying to determine how many operators I'll be using per ops session.


"A  Man Has Got To Believe In Something --- I Believe I'll Have Another
Drink!"
Doug "Don't Go By The Book --  Think Like A Pirate!" Wagner
Golden  Empire Historical & Modeling Society
Bakersfield, California


In a message dated 11/23/2009 7:47:12 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
inyosub@... writes:






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Doug,
They are pretty freindly.  They start most operations late in the afternoon and
work into
the night; after most of their customers have closed/shutdown.  It is easy to
follow them around,
but I'd do it during the summer. If you have the articles, you have the maps
with the major
customers. What else do you need?
Jon C.
SP Inyo Sub.
Beaumont Ind. Term.
Acid for all, Soda for Glass


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm constructing an N scale layout, based on the Modesto & Empire Traction
Railroad (MET) -- based in Modesto, California. I'm looking for any information
on their operations and was wondering if anyone out there had any idea of their
operations. I haven't contacted MET yet, but I figured they would be hush-hush
on their operations -- a Homeland Security thing. I've got the 2 magazine
articles in Modela Railroader and RMC, from a few years back. Anyway,thought I'd
start my research here. Thanks.

Doug Wagner
Bakersfield, California

Back when Morgan Sports cars were actually 3-wheelers, they had a
reputation for unsuspecting drivers locking their at least one of their
narrow front tires into the track grooves, and then flipping over at the
next track sharp turn.

Andy

Richard Zeren wrote:
> Another purported reason for wide gauge, at least in eastern cities (Philly,
> Baltimore,...), was to keep carriages and wagons, built to "standard gauge,"
> from being "captured" by the tracks and causing accidents. Trolley systems
> became popular in many cities at the end of the 19th century, when
> horse-drawn vehicles dominated city streets.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.76/2519 - Release Date: 11/22/09
07:38:00
>

Another purported reason for wide gauge, at least in eastern cities (Philly,
Baltimore,...), was to keep carriages and wagons, built to "standard gauge,"
from being "captured" by the tracks and causing accidents. Trolley systems
became popular in many cities at the end of the 19th century, when
horse-drawn vehicles dominated city streets.
--
Regards,
    Dick Zeren



> From: j_purbrick <j_purbrick@...>
> Reply-To: OPSIG <Ry-ops-industrialSIG@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 01:00:25 -0000
> To: OPSIG <Ry-ops-industrialSIG@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Ops-Ind] Re: Trolley Ops
>
> --- In Ry-ops-industrialSIG@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dehusman@...> wrote:
>>
>> --- In Ry-ops-industrialSIG@yahoogroups.com, GCRDS@ wrote:
>>> Our local light rail system, Unreliable Transportation Always (well, they
>>> claim it stands for Utah Transit Authority) is standard gauge, but BART in
>>> the  Bay Area is not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>
>> And the reason is that some of those tracks are also used for freight traffic
>> (being the to end of the former UP Provo Sub).
>
> And the reason some cities forced the streetcar companies to use a gauge other
> than standard was--to make sure that freight trains would never run in the
> streets.
>
> By the way, Los Angeles had its own streetcar system which was narrow gauge
> (3ft 6in), and also had some routes of the standard gauge Pacific Electric
> system in the streets. There was dual gauge in some places. I don't know about
> dual overhead wire.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> The Ops-Ind list - The place to discuss rail operations and industries.
>                     Ry-ops-industrialSIG@...
>
>                    Visit our extended files area at:
>                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OPS-INDfiles/Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Hello group,

Thanks for all the input...I like the idea of narrow gauge thanks!
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: "j_purbrick" <j_purbrick@...>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 01:00:25
To: <Ry-ops-industrialSIG@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Ops-Ind] Re: Trolley Ops

--- In Ry-ops-industrialSIG@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dehusman@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Ry-ops-industrialSIG@yahoogroups.com, GCRDS@ wrote:
> > Our local light rail system, Unreliable Transportation Always (well, they
> > claim it stands for Utah Transit Authority) is standard gauge, but BART in
> > the  Bay Area is not.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> And the reason is that some of those tracks are also used for freight traffic
(being the to end of the former UP Provo Sub).

And the reason some cities forced the streetcar companies to use a gauge other
than standard was--to make sure that freight trains would never run in the
streets.

By the way, Los Angeles had its own streetcar system which was narrow gauge (3ft
6in), and also had some routes of the standard gauge Pacific Electric system in
the streets. There was dual gauge in some places. I don't know about dual
overhead wire.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Two or three or four years ago I parsed some NKP waybills for this list.
They dated from the last 40's and involved the large Swift soybean plant in
Frankfort, IN.  Every few days a bill would show up for shipping used grain
doors from the Swift facility back to the owner railroad.  An example I
remember is a "load" of 200 or so doors, which I am sure were just piled in
a car, back to the PRR which interchanged with the NKP there in town.  The
doors were stencled with the owner's reporting mark and somebody collected
them on site, kept track of them and made sure, as far as practical, that
they got back to where they belonged.  In other words, another movement to
model.

Bill Darnaby

Living in Owen Sound and frequenting the rail yards during the
fifties and sixties (and up until the lines were abandoned in the
nineties) I can verify most of what is said below.  Most of the cars
I seen were steel cars, only once I remember seeing outside framed
wood sheathed cars and that was mid to late sixties.  These cars were
primarily used in the western provinces to the Lakehead elevators or
to the Pacific coat elevators then in their infancy.

The majority of grain handled out of the Bayport elevators of which
Owen Sound was one, was export grain heading to Atlantic and St
Lawrence ports.  There also was considerable movement of grain to
domestic elevators in southern Ontario and western Quebec but these
were generally one or two car.orders.

The steel cars were not captive to Canadian rails but many of the
steel framed cars carried a message that they were not to be loaded
to US destinations.  The steel framed cars also were used in hauling
coal to the Lakehead.  I expect coal shipments dropped when the grain
was moving.

CP and CN both had coopering sidings as mentioned.  CP's last
coopered cars was in 1977.  CN last coopered cars were done in
Stratford, ON, the coopering operation moved from Owen Sound and
Goderich, which also had a transfer elevator, in about 1965.

Peter

At 05:44 PM 23/11/2009, you wrote:
>A lot of western Canadian grain  in the 50's and 60's came in to
>Owen Sound on Georgian Bay from Fort William / Port Arthur ( now
>Thunder Bay ) at the lakehead on Lake Superior.From the Owen Sound
>elevators, CN and CP grain trains carried the grain  southward to
>Toronto and Southern Ontario in outside braced boxcars fitted with
>grain doors. These cars were almost a captive service car as they
>were not ( probably couldn't be ) interchanged. There was a pile of
>material and tools as well as a gang of workers at Owen Sound set up
>specificly to put these grain doors in place. This could be an added
>modelling detail if you have a large elevator operation on your
>model railroad.  Interestingly on the inside walls of these cars
>different horizontal lines were drawn and named for the various
>forms of grain ( oats, barley, wheat, etc. ) to indicate how high
>each type of  grain could be piled in these cars. This would also
>determine how high the grain doors should be built. Another factor
>was of course that the doors were attached inside the car so enough
>room had to be left above the grain door in order for the inside
>worker (s) to get out before the grain went in! All grains can
>almost double their weight depending on the amount of moisture they
>contain. Here is a comparative chart for ultra dry( 5% moisture )
>grains in pounds per bushel.   Wheat ( 54.83 ) Sunflower (94.74 )
>Corn ( 49.81 ) Barley ( 43.20 ) Oats ( 20.97 ) Rye ( 50.69 ) Soybean
>( 54.95 ) Flax ( 53.64 ) Sorghum ( 49.79 )
>
>   .

Peter Bowers



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--- In Ry-ops-industrialSIG@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dehusman@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Ry-ops-industrialSIG@yahoogroups.com, GCRDS@ wrote:
> > Our local light rail system, Unreliable Transportation Always (well, they
> > claim it stands for Utah Transit Authority) is standard gauge, but BART in
> > the  Bay Area is not.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> And the reason is that some of those tracks are also used for freight traffic
(being the to end of the former UP Provo Sub).

And the reason some cities forced the streetcar companies to use a gauge other
than standard was--to make sure that freight trains would never run in the
streets.

By the way, Los Angeles had its own streetcar system which was narrow gauge (3ft
6in), and also had some routes of the standard gauge Pacific Electric system in
the streets. There was dual gauge in some places. I don't know about dual
overhead wire.

At 08:47 PM 11/23/09 +0000, David wrote:
>While everybody is discussing modeling the grain doors, I guess the
>question I have is why?
>
>The only time you should see a grain door in place is the brief time it
>was being loaded.  Once the car is to be moved, the car door should be
>closed to prevent spoilage and loss, once the car is unloaded the grain
>doors are removed to unload the car.  So other than a car with a shredded
>paper grain door in an open car door, I wouldn't think you would see the
>grain door itself in use.


It's useful for setting up a small vignette, either on the loading track at
the country elevator, with several cars open for coopering, or at the
terminal elevator, with the cars being stripped. I recall Railmodel Journal
had an article on grain operations some years ago (written, I believe, by
Dan Holbrook). I recall it stated the procedure at the Duluth terminal
elevators was to stack the grain doors diagonally on the floor with one
corner sticking out of the car. As the cut of MTys was slowly pulled, and
gang of men pulled the doors from the cars and stacked them.

It's also useful to note this is another load to be sent to rural stations
that have elevators; a couple boxcars full of grain doors to be distributed
to the local elevators.

And, understanding how grain was carried before the advent of large
capacity covered hoppers, because people just can't seem to get their mind
around the fact that a boxcar is a closed box, and all you need to do is
fill it with grain. No covered hoppers for grain service before 1956 - 57
or so.




Dennis Storzek

A lot of western Canadian grain  in the 50's and 60's came in to Owen Sound on
Georgian Bay from Fort William / Port Arthur ( now Thunder Bay ) at the lakehead
on Lake Superior.From the Owen Sound elevators, CN and CP grain trains carried
the grain  southward to Toronto and Southern Ontario in outside braced boxcars
fitted with grain doors. These cars were almost a captive service car as they
were not ( probably couldn't be ) interchanged. There was a pile of material and
tools as well as a gang of workers at Owen Sound set up specificly to put these
grain doors in place. This could be an added modelling detail if you have a
large elevator operation on your model railroad.  Interestingly on the inside
walls of these cars different horizontal lines were drawn and named for the
various forms of grain ( oats, barley, wheat, etc. ) to indicate how high each
type of  grain could be piled in these cars. This would also determine how high
the grain doors should be built. Another factor was of course that the doors
were attached inside the car so enough room had to be left above the grain door
in order for the inside worker (s) to get out before the grain went in! All
grains can almost double their weight depending on the amount of moisture they
contain. Here is a comparative chart for ultra dry( 5% moisture ) grains in
pounds per bushel.   Wheat ( 54.83 ) Sunflower (94.74 ) Corn ( 49.81 ) Barley (
43.20 ) Oats ( 20.97 ) Rye ( 50.69 ) Soybean ( 54.95 ) Flax ( 53.64 ) Sorghum (
49.79 )

   .
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: GCRDS@...
   To: Ry-ops-industrialSIG@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:24 PM
   Subject: Re: [Ops-Ind] Re: Grain in box cars





   In a message dated 11/23/2009 2:14:08 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
   hmp3@... writes:

   While doing a search for "grain doors" in N scale, I discovered that
   Micro-Trains is now producing a 40' CN boxcar with separate grain doors - in Z
   scale! Makes me wonder if they will produce the doors in N and if they will
   be available as detail parts. One can only hope.

   Chuck Place
   Great Northern, circa summer 1956

   *********************************

   Actually Chuck, they already did produce the same car(s) in Normal Scale.
   See;

   _http://buynscale.com/MT-July.htm_ (http://buynscale.com/MT-July.htm)

   I'm not sure if the doors are available separately or not. You could check
   MT's website and see. They were not listed on Pete's Brooklyn Locomotive
   Works website though. Note that it appears that each of the two cars has
   different grain door styles. Also MT did just released these same cars as
   preweathered cars...not sure if those are still available or not...past my bed
   time so I didn't check. HTH!

   Brian R. Termunde
   Midvale, UT

   (http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/)

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

And your point is...?



To: Ry-ops-industrialSIG@yahoogroups.com
From: shadow@...
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:49:31 -0500
Subject: Re: [Ops-Ind] Trolley Ops





On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 12:33 PM, JEFFREY LEAMAN <RRsafety1@...> wrote:
>
> Thd knowledge base I am privy to  (NTSB) tells me that with very few exceptons
(excursion, amusement, historical) trolley and light rail operations in the US
are standard guage.

Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, New Orleans, etc, may be historical, but if
you're modeling one of those places, ....

(I am choosing to model a portion of the Pittsburgh trolley system
without installing broad gauge trackage)




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Howard,  It appears the scoop was pulled back by hand rather
than by ropes as were the scoopps used on the ships.

While this is off topic, scoops or scrapers were used in some coal
yards and in older self-unloading ships to move materials to the
conveyors.  Generally anywhere where this method is used today, a
Bobcat or payloader is used.

Peter

At 07:24 AM 23/11/2009, you wrote:
>Try this search at the Minnesota Historical Society
>
><http://collections.mnhs.org/visualresources/Results.cfm?Page=1&Digital=Yes&Key\
words=grain%20unloading&SearchType=Basic&CFID=13807847&CFTOKEN=15822271>
>
>This is from the "Photo and Art database", searched on "grain unloading"
>
>Howard Garner
>Pickens, SC
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
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>                     Ry-ops-industrialSIG@...
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Thanks, Brian.

Both wood and paper doors! Somehow I missed that.

Chuck

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: GCRDS@...
   To: Ry-ops-industrialSIG@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:24 PM
   Subject: Re: [Ops-Ind] Re: Grain in box cars





   In a message dated 11/23/2009 2:14:08 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
   hmp3@... writes:

   While doing a search for "grain doors" in N scale, I discovered that
   Micro-Trains is now producing a 40' CN boxcar with separate grain doors - in Z
   scale! Makes me wonder if they will produce the doors in N and if they will
   be available as detail parts. One can only hope.

   Chuck Place
   Great Northern, circa summer 1956

   *********************************

   Actually Chuck, they already did produce the same car(s) in Normal Scale.
   See;

   _http://buynscale.com/MT-July.htm_ (http://buynscale.com/MT-July.htm)

   I'm not sure if the doors are available separately or not. You could check
   MT's website and see. They were not listed on Pete's Brooklyn Locomotive
   Works website though. Note that it appears that each of the two cars has
   different grain door styles. Also MT did just released these same cars as
   preweathered cars...not sure if those are still available or not...past my bed
   time so I didn't check. HTH!

   Brian R. Termunde
   Midvale, UT

   (http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/)

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 11/23/2009 2:29:50 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
dehusman@... writes:

--- In _Ry-ops-industrialSIRy-ops-industrRy-_
(mailto:Ry-ops-industrialSIG@yahoogroups.com) ,  GCRDS@... wrote:
> Our local light rail system, Unreliable  Transportation Always (well,
they
> claim it stands for Utah Transit  Authority) is standard gauge, but BART
in
> the Bay Area is  not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And  the reason is that some of those tracks are also used for freight
traffic  (being the to end of the former UP Provo Sub).

Dave H.

********


Thanks for adding that Dave. I did mean to mention that aspect of the line.
  I've never seen the freight ops (kinda hard to go railfanning at 2am on a
bicycle!), but I do see cars spotted all the time. While it's not as active
as  it was in its heyday, it's nice to see that there is still some
freight activity along the line.

In fairness to UTA, they seem to be doing a pretty good job in growing the
system with new lines to the Airport, Magna and through West Jordan. And
eventually south over Point of the Mountain into Utah County.

Their website is <_www.rideuta.com_ (http://www.rideuta.com) > in case
anyone is  interested. Just don't bother using their trip planner...it's the
most useless  piece of **** there is!


Brian R.  Termunde
Midvale, UT

  (http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Ry-ops-industrialSIG@yahoogroups.com, GCRDS@... wrote:
> Our local light rail system, Unreliable Transportation Always (well, they
> claim it stands for Utah Transit Authority) is standard gauge, but BART in
> the  Bay Area is not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And the reason is that some of those tracks are also used for freight traffic
(being the to end of the former UP Provo Sub).

Dave H.

In a message dated 11/23/2009 2:14:08 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
hmp3@... writes:

While doing a search for "grain doors" in N scale, I discovered  that
Micro-Trains is now producing a 40' CN boxcar with separate grain doors -  in Z
scale! Makes me wonder if they will produce the doors in N and if they  will
be available as detail parts. One can only hope.

Chuck  Place
Great Northern, circa summer 1956

*********************************


Actually Chuck, they already did produce the same car(s) in Normal Scale.
See;


_http://buynscale.com/MT-July.htm_ (http://buynscale.com/MT-July.htm)

I'm not sure if the doors are available separately or not. You could check
MT's website and see. They were not listed on Pete's Brooklyn Locomotive
Works  website though. Note that it appears that each of the two cars has
different  grain door styles. Also MT did just released these same cars as
preweathered  cars...not sure if those are still available or not...past my bed
time so I  didn't check. HTH!

Brian R.  Termunde
Midvale, UT

  (http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

While doing a search for "grain doors" in N scale, I discovered that
Micro-Trains is now producing a 40' CN boxcar with separate grain doors - in Z
scale! Makes me wonder if they will produce the doors in N and if they will be
available as detail parts. One can only hope.

Chuck Place
Great Northern, circa summer 1956


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 11/23/2009 10:36:12 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
RRsafety1@... writes:

Thd knowledge base I am privy to  (NTSB) tells me that with  very few
exceptons (excursion, amusement, historical) trolley and light rail  operations
in the US are standard guage.

****************


Our local light rail system, Unreliable Transportation Always (well, they
claim it stands for Utah Transit Authority) is standard gauge, but BART in
the  Bay Area is not.


Brian R.  Termunde
Midvale, UT

  (http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Jack: I need a little help. I just went through my Wheat Kings book
(fantastic book by the way) but didn't see any shots of the scoop method of
unloading grain. I vaguely remember seeing such a shot somewhere (Doug Harding
probably knows where) but I can't recall.


Richard Wehr
Ft. Apache, Arizona Territory



-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Hofmockel <jack.hofmockel@...>
To: Ry-ops-industrialSIG@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:39 am
Subject: Re: [Ops-Ind] Re: Grain in box cars





Pictures? Again, Greg McDonnell's book, Wheat Kings.
Jack.


>... mine worked at a flour mill in the late 70s and they unloaded boxcars

using large scoops pulled by cables to unload the cars. A worker would pull the

  scoop into the car and then guide it out when the cables started pulling.

I've also heard of an auger type of unit where the 'unloader' sat straddle

the unit and guided it into the car to get at the grain.  Sort of like a

horizontal Huelet but of a much, much smaller size.

Doug





                    .








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 12:33 PM, JEFFREY LEAMAN <RRsafety1@...> wrote:
>
> Thd knowledge base I am privy to  (NTSB) tells me that with very few exceptons
(excursion, amusement, historical) trolley and light rail operations in the US
are standard guage.

Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, New Orleans, etc, may be historical, but if
you're modeling one of those places, ....

(I am choosing to model a portion of the Pittsburgh trolley system
without installing broad gauge trackage)

While everybody is discussing modeling the grain doors, I guess the question I
have is why?

The only time you should see a grain door in place is the brief time it was
being loaded.  Once the car is to be moved, the car door should be closed to
prevent spoilage and loss, once the car is unloaded the grain doors are removed
to unload the car.  So other than a car with a shredded paper grain door in an
open car door, I wouldn't think you would see the grain door itself in use.

I may be wrong, the only grain doors I saw being used were the Signode paper
ones and I never saw one on a loaded car in a moving train, only the shredded
ones in the open door of an empty boxcar (or in a car being loaded).

Dave H.

Jeff-
Don Jaeger (Jaeger HO Products) has made Grain Doors for many years.
Charlie Vlk

The outfit that manufactures the scale models of the doors is
www.modelerschoice.com.



Jeff Leaman



To: Ry-ops-industrialSIG@yahoogroups.com; Ry-ops-industrialSIG@yahoogroups.com
From: destorzek@...
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 13:49:28 -0600
Subject: Re: [Ops-Ind] Re: Grain in box cars





At 03:02 PM 11/23/09 +0000, mlaughlinnyc wrote:
>My recollection is that one of the main criteria for grain box cars was a
>six foot door. Coopering an eight foot door would be a problem,
>especially if you usually use 7-8 foot boards or prefab paper doors that
>were designed for standard grain door width.
>
>Malcolm Laughlin

True enough. However, this changed somewhat towards the end of the "boxcar"
era of grain haulage; firstly because there were increasing numbers of 40'
boxcars with wider doors, and secondly because of the introduction of
"paper" grain doors specifically designed to cooper these wider openings.
While the traditional wooden grain door relied on the stiffness of the
boards to resist bulging, and coopering a car with eight foot doors
required the use of twice as many standard grain doors, overlapped, with
still no guarantee that they wouldn't bulge and foul the sliding door, the
Signode grain doors were designed to use steel strapping run across the car
to keep the doors from bulging. The paper doors were actually two layers of
corrugated cardboard with several wood 2x4's sandwiched between, and could
be made to fit any width door. The "doors" came as a roll; the floor cleat
was first nailed to the floor, then the door was unrolled upward, nailing
it to the door posts as it went up, and lastly steel strapping was fastened
between the midpoints of the built-in 2X4 stiffners.

I was looking for a link to the (now obsolete) AAR standard for wooden
grain doors. Didn't find it (it is in at least one of the Car Builder's
Cyclopedias from mid century) but did find this interesting paper by Twin
Ports area modeler Dan Holbrook:

http://www.modelerschoice.com/Articles/grain.pdf

He dates the introduction of the paper grain doors to 1948, and also has a
lot of other useful info.

Back to the standard wooden grain door. From memory that were applied in
several panels appx. 6'-6" long (to span the door opening) and either 16"
or 24" high. Each panel was made from two layers of random width 1" boards,
nailed together with the nails cinched over. The ends of one layer were run
across the width to help keep it from splitting, with the boards on that
side fitted in-between. As you can see from the dimensions, the pre-fab
panels were just the perfect size to become: foot bridges, bunk beds, work
benches, outhouse doors, and so the railroads had a heck of a time keeping
them from sprouting legs and wandering off. Also, the standard method of
opening a car was to pry the bottom door inward against the pressure of the
grain using a BIG prybar, which often resulted in at least one broken grain
door per car. the repair and shipment of grain doors was a significant cost
of the grain shipping business.

The wooden grain doors were supplied to the elevators by the railroads.
Most western RRs used the services of the Western Weighing and Inspection
Bureau - Grain Door Reclamation Bureau. Doors were collected at the
terminal elevators, routed to central locations to have broken doors
dismantled and the salvaged boards used to repair other doors, then loaded
into boxcars and shipped to the freight agent who served the shipping
elevators. My business partner's father, R.B. Walker sr.at one time was
responsible for accounting and arranging shipment for hundreds of thousands
of these panels.

And finally, here is a link to a photo of wooden grain doors in use; hope
the link doesn't wrap:

<http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/I?fsaall:4:./temp/~ammem_IMEz::displayType=\
1:m856sd=fsa:m856sf=8c16849:@@@mdb=mcc,gottscho,detr,nfor,wpa,aap,cwar,bbpix,cow\
ellbib,calbkbib,consrvbib,bdsbib,dag,fsaall,gmd,pan,vv,presp,varstg,suffrg,nawbi\
b,horyd,wtc,toddbib,mgw,ncr,ngp,musdibib,hlaw,papr,lhbumbib,rbpebib,lbcoll,alad,\
hh,aaodyssey,magbell,bbc,dcm,raelbib,runyon,dukesm,lomaxbib,mtj,gottlieb,aep,qlt\
,coolbib,fpnas,aasm,denn,relpet,amss,aaeo,mff,afc911bib,mjm,mnwp,rbcmillerbib,mo\
lden,ww2map,mfdipbib,afcnyebib,klpmap,hawp,omhbib,rbaapcbib,mal,ncpsbib,ncpm,lhb\
prbib,ftvbib,afcreed,aipn,cwband,flwpabib,wpapos,cmns,psbib,pin,coplandbib,cola,\
tccc,curt,mharendt,lhbcbbib,eaa,haybib,mesnbib,fine,cwnyhs,svybib,mmorse,afcwwgb\
ib,mymhiwebib,uncall,afcwip,mtaft,manz,llstbib,fawbib,berl,fmuever,cdn,upboverbi\
b,mussm,cic,afcpearl,awh,awhbib,sgp,wright,lhbtnbib,afcesnbib,hurstonbib,mreynol\
dsbib,spaldingbib,sgproto,scsmbib,afccalbib>

or:
http://tinyurl.com/yk25mhp

The man standing on the seal pin, clinging to the car side is obtaining a
grain sample prior to the car being unloaded. The car is fully coopered;
the grain wasn't loaded all the way to the roof, and the opening above the
grain door made an entryway for the loading spout, and an exit for the
loading crew.

Dennis Storzek

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