This is to comment about the new news item where Evangelist Tony Alamo has been
sentenced to 175 years in prison. He molested children and threatened others
that they would lose their salvation if they did not do what Evangelist Alamo
told them to. He has a church named after him - The Tony Alamo Christian Church.
This is sad news indeed! An important comment to make regarding this is how far
someone like this evangelist can go when they believe in extra Biblical
revelation where God is speaking to them outside of the closed canon of
scripture. What is the purpose of studying the Bible if God is still bringing
revelation today? I and many others do not apologize and don't intend to
apologize for constantly saying that Charismatics who believe in extra Biblical
revelation will be damned if they don't repent of this heresy. We have to use
scripture for what we say and not expect people to believe us without doing an
examination in the Bible. For example, tonight, I got a great opportunity to
witness not my opinion, but the scripture to someone from work on the way back
home. There was a discussion on the new movie out 2012 which suggests that year
will be the end of the age. I indicated according to scripture that I don't know
when the end is, but there will be an end, the last day on judgment day. The
signs point out that it may be soon. We can't control when the end of the world
is, but we have to make sure we are ready, as it may be tomorrow, or if we die,
that is the end for us. I got to go into the grace Gospel and how the Bible is
the ultimate authority. Let us be in prayer for the few true Christians out
there in our country to be a light, and that the gospel may not be hindered by
the broad false Christians such as Tony Alamo.

God Bless,
Mohan

This is to make some comments on the latest news and focus program by Trevor
Hammack found at: http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1111091434278
regarding the execution of the sniper John Muhammad. One question that is raised
- is capital punishment Biblical? Can we compare that to the abortion of killing
babies? The answer is we cannot make that comparison. Abortion is murder,whereas
capital punishment is executing just punishment by the government for a crime.
Genesis 1:27 indicates that man is created in the image of God. In Genesis 9:6
it indicates "Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in
the image of God he made man." Therefore, when we murder someone, whether in
thought or physically, we are murdering someone created in the image of God.
When we slander someone, we are speaking lies against someone created in the
image of God.

When we look at Romans 13:1-4, we see that God has raised up the governing
authorities to carry the sword and execute justice in the case for example of
someone comiting murders. This is Biblical support for capital punishment.

Now, this leads to another question. Even though it is right for the government
to execute such punishment for the crime, do we rejoice that the one executed is
now burning in hell and got what he deserved? Absolutely not! You and I deserve
the same hell that John Muhammed deserves, as all of us are wicked sinners by
nature. Were it not for God's grace, there go all of us! If we look to Matthew
5, we are to turn the other cheek, and forgive even our enemies, including a
murderer. In our personal life, we don't retaliate, but the authority is to
carry out the justice. We are acting like jerks when we celebrate someone dying
and going to a Christless eternity in hell. The fact that there are sinners all
around us on their way to this hell should encourage us to do all we can to get
the Gospel out such as getting the Gospel on the Internet, giving out tracts to
the community around us and getting into Bible studies with others. This is no
time to sit back and live the so called comfortable professing American
"Christian" life, as the time is very short, we need to examine ourselves to
make sure we are in the faith and give the truth to others.

Mohan

Taken From:
http://area777.net/rocksteady/salvation/easy-christianity.php

Easy Christianity

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that
leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and
narrow the road that leads to life and only a few find it" (Matthew 7:13,14).

There is a Christianity abroad, supposedly evangelical and fundamental,
dedicated to making itself easy enough and popular enough for even half-hearted
and jaded modern church-goers. True to its mission, it has developed a whole
series of teachings which are consistent only in their common effect of
smoothing off the rough edges and right angles of genuine Christianity. These
new doctrines are very popular and widely accepted. Why shouldn't they be? They
cater to the natural aversion of men to self-denial and especially to the modern
worship of pleasure.

Only these deep-rooted tendencies can explain the delusion that such
Christianity is authentic. Jesus himself warned against it by telling us that
genuine Christianity would be difficult and unpopular ("small is the gate and
narrow the road that leads to life and only a few find it"-- Matthew. 7:14),
whereas its counterfeit would be easy, popular, and damning ("wide is the gate
and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it"--
Matthew 7:13). Is your Christianity authentic? Or, is it easy, popular, and
damning?
Suspicious Inconsistency

One of the suspicious qualities of today's "Easy Christianity" is its
inconsistency. For instance, "Easy Christianity" teaches that staying saved is
all up to God. Christians will be saved irrespective of how they live. That's
what "Easy Christianity" means by "Eternal Security." But when it comes to
getting saved, that's another story. Getting saved, so "Easy Christianity" says,
is all up to us. That is where we must make our decision for Christ. It's all up
to our free will.

Quite obviously, this approach to salvation is hopelessly inconsistent except at
one point. It is consistent in that it makes Christianity easy. People want a
salvation they can get easily and keep even more easily. "Easy Christianity"
accommodates them by illogically teaching "Eternal Security" and "Salvation by
Decision."

Have you ever wondered why, if people can decide by their own free wills to get
saved, they can't decide by their own free wills not to stay saved? If their
free will can get them in, why can't it get them out?

The Bible truth is that "Easy Christianity" is wrong about both getting saved
and staying saved, since both are all up to God and His sovereign grace, though
both involve the intense activity of our hearts, minds, and wills. The Lord
Jesus struck this balance on the matter of getting saved. "All that the Father
gives me shall come to me; and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast
out" (John 6:37). The balance is perfect. It is because the Father gives that
men come, but nonetheless they must and do come. The Word of God carries this
balance into the matter of staying saved when Paul says, "Work out your
salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to
will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:12,13). We must work, but
it is because God works in us the will and the work!

This balance is critical for avoiding an "Easy Christianity" while maintaining
an authentic Christianity.
Cast Your Ballot!

"God has voted for you. Satan has voted against you. You must cast the deciding
ballot." By teaching this, many Evangelicals encourage people to believe that
"getting saved" is simply a matter of making their decision for Christ by their
own free wills. Such teaching is imbalanced and harmful!

What is wrong about teaching that "getting saved" is all up to our free wills?

It is wrong because it encourages proud self-sufficiency in the sinner.
Everything is made to depend on his crucial decision for Christ, made by his
unassisted free will. How flattering and inflating to his opinion of himself!
This is precisely the opposite of the attitudes required in response to the
gospel! The Bible's evaluation of the sinner is not so flattering! Jesus
asserted, "No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me draws him" (John
6:44). Paul tells the Ephesians that before sovereign grace they "were dead in
their trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1). Dead men do not decide for Christ!
Such Biblical teaching is important, because there is hope in Christ only for
those who find no hope in themselves.

It is in error also because it lowers the demands of the gospel and obscures the
difficulty of true conversion. By making conversion at the crucial point
dependent on unaided free will, this teaching encourages men to think that it is
something they are able to do. Biblical faith and repentance are lowered to a
decision for Christ because the demands of faith and repentance are more than
free will can meet. The truth is that only God by mighty grace can enable men to
believe and repent (Acts 5:31; 2 Timothy 2:25).

Do not rest satisfied and deceived by a decision for Christ that falls short of
the faith and repentance bestowed by the free grace of God!

Easy Believism

"Easy-believism" is one of "Easy Christianity's" popular teachings. Like other
false teachings "Easy-believism" is a perversion of truth. The Bible teaches--as
Martin Luther and the Reformation proclaimed--that we are made right with God by
faith in Christ alone. We grant that salvation is by faith alone. The question
is easy-faith or biblical faith!

Biblical faith demands and produces costly and radical changes in one's life.
Its essence is supreme commitment to Christ. "Anyone who loves his father or
mother more that me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter
more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and
follow me is not worthy of me" (Matthew 10:37,38). Its Siamese twin is
repentance. "Produce fruit in keeping with repentance... The ax is already at
the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be
cut down and thrown into the fire" (Matthew 3:8,10). Its distinctive mark is
that it produces good works. "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith
without deeds is dead" (James 2:26). "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision,
nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing
itself through love" (Galatians 5:6).

If you've been told that you can have Christ as Savior without having Him as
Lord; if you've been told that salvation is as easy as ABC; if you were assured
that a momentary decision would save your soul, you've been taught
"Easy-believism". If you think that such believing will save you, you are
deceived!
Free From the Law

This phrase from a popular gospel song epitomizes another teaching of "Easy
Christianity." The song has been caricatured as follows: "Free from the Law! O
happy condition! Sin all I want and still be forgiven." Sadly, being free from
the law means exactly this in "Easy Christianity."

But aren't Christians free from the law? Of course! They are free from the
judicial and ceremonial law given to Israel. They are free from the moral law as
the way to merit salvation. Thus, Scripture says, "you are not under law, but
under grace" (Romans 6:14). But Christians are under the moral law as revealed
in the Ten Commandments as a rule of life. In other words, they keep the law as
the authoritative instructions of their Savior for living.

The New Testament demands such law-keeping! "Circumcision is nothing and
uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts" (1 Corinthians
7:19). "Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we
uphold the law" (Romans 3:31). "So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is
holy, righteous and good" (Romans 7:12).

"Easy Christianity" offers freedom from the law, but such freedom is slavery to
sin! The genuine Christian says, "I will walk about in freedom, for I have
sought out your precepts" (Psalm 119:45).
Eternal Security

Modern "Easy Christianity" - dedicated to effortless and carefree religion- has
invented the doctrine of eternal security or "once saved-always saved." With
such insurance one who has boarded the "train bound for glory," may relax and go
to sleep. Having made his deposit in the bank of salvation, he may spend the
rest of his money as he likes.

This is false doctrine! The Word of God nowhere teaches that once a man is born
again he may give free rein to the lusts of the flesh and be as worldly as he
pleases, yet still be sure of getting to heaven. Rather, it teaches, "If you
live according to the flesh, you will die" (Romans 8:13). "If anyone does not
remain in me," Jesus said, "He is like a branch that is thrown away and withers;
such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned" (John 15:6). The
Apostle Peter remarks, "It would have been better for them not to have known the
way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn their backs...of
them the proverbs are true `A dog returns to its vomit,' and, `A sow that is
washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud'" (2 Peter 2:22,23).

Is there no assurance for the Christian that he will make it to glory? Of course
there is! But it is found in the Reformation doctrine of the "Perseverance of
the Saints." Scripture teaches that all those who are once saved persevere in
holiness and are finally saved. This is great comfort for the true Christian,
but none to the one who wants carefree Christianity.

If your hope is in a decision or experience long past, but not followed to the
present by a new life, your soul is not safe! Do not let such false assurance
destroy you!
Carnal Christians?

The "Carnal Christian Theory" is another of the teachings of "Easy Christianity"
designed to take the pressure off the average church-goer.. The "great" thing
about this teaching is that it also takes pressure off the teachers of "Easy
Christianity." Time was that if "converts" went on in or went back to their
ungodly lifestyles, they were labeled hypocrites or apostates. Now they are
called "Carnal Christians." This looks much better for the evangelists'
statistics and avoids painful evaluation of his message and methods.

What is the "Carnal Christian Theory"? Let its advocated explain! "After you
have invited Christ to come into your life, it is possible for you to take
control of your life again. The New Testament, 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3,
identifies three kinds of people... These three kinds of people are "the natural
man", "the carnal man", and "the spiritual man". The carnal man is the
"Christian who has invited Christ into his life," but "is not trusting God" and
in rebellion against the lordship of Christ has "taken control of his life
again." This is the theory as it is taught in the notes of a popular study Bible
and the tracts of a well-known evangelistic organization. Many regard themselves
as Christians because of it who are nevertheless under the wrath of God. Like
false prophets its teachers cry, "Peace, peace; where there is no peace"
(Jeremiah. 6:14 and 8:11).

Don't you be deceived by them! Examine the Scriptures. The entire New Testament
testifies against this theory. Read Romans 8:1-17, Ephesians 5:3-7, Galatians
5:19-26. Galatians. 5:24 epitomizes their teaching, "Those who belong to Christ
have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires." If your sinful
nature has not been crucified by the grace of Christ, you are not a carnal
Christian. You are no Christian and need to become one.

The idea that a man may have Christ in his life but not on the throne of his
life is the heart of the "Carnal Christian Theory." We noticed already that this
dangerous doctrine is contradicted by the entire New Testament. What about 1
Corinthians 3:1-4, its supposed proof-text, does it teach this theory?

The Apostle Paul was not only divinely inspired, but also perfectly sane--not
given to contradicting himself in the space of a few lines. In the same letter
he made perfectly clear what he would have said about this modern theory. "Do
you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be
deceived: Neither the sexually immoral not idolaters nor adulterers nor male
prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards
nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what
some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified
in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God" (1
Corinthians 6:9-11).

All Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 is that Christians can and do sometimes in
some areas of their lives act like unconverted, worldly men. "Are you not
worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? for when one says, "I follow Paul,"
and another, "I follow Apollos, " are you not mere men?" (1 Corinthians 3:3,4).

It is one thing in some areas at some times to act like unconverted men, it is
something else to be a carnal man as to the dominant characteristic of one's
life. Of such the Bible says, "their place will be the fiery lake of burning
sulfur" (Revelation 21:8). May God deliver you from going to the place where all
"Carnal Christians" will go!
Health and Wealth!

A recent development in "Easy Christianity" is its gospel of health and wealth.
This gospel teaches that because God loves His children it is not His will that
they be poor or sick. All Christians could be healthy and wealthy if only they
knew that God wanted them to be and had the faith to claim His promises! Some
actually think that a luxurious home complete with swimming pool will be theirs,
if only they believe in God for it. Others are certain that terminally ill loved
ones will get well, if it is claimed by faith.

Of course, false doctrine is often truth taken at an extreme. There is an
element of truth in the gospel of health and wealth. It is true that God may
make us healthy and wealthy in answer to our prayers! It is also true that godly
living does have a general tendency to produce both healthy bodies and
prosperity. Scripture warns against many sins that undermine health including
the intemperate use of food, alcohol, and tobacco. The fruit of the Spirit is
self-control (Galatians. 5:22). One who has been a Christian from youth often
looks remarkably younger than his classmates at the 25-year reunion!

Scripture also teaches diligence and the avoidance of folly and excess in the
use of money. Such qualities tend to produce prosperity. "Diligent hands bring
wealth" (Proverbs 10:4).

Health and wealth are good. They are produced by godly living. This is taught by
the Word of God. The gospel of health and wealth is not. It has nothing to do
with the gospel of Christ who warned men to count the cost before taking up
their cross to follow Him (Luke 14:25-33). It contradicts the plainest realities
of the Word of God

There is persecution. Jesus said, "Blessed are those who are persecuted because
of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:10).
Persecution often ruins both the health and the wealth of the righteousness.

There is the sin that remains in every Christian. Wealth and health may not be
in our best interest! Are we more holy that the Apostle Paul? "To keep me from
becoming conceited...there was given me a thorn in my flesh...to torment me.
Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But He said to me,
"My grace is sufficient for you for my power is made perfect in weakness" (2
Corinthians 12:7-9).

There is the fact that all Christians die. How foolish to think that all
Christians have died because none have ever had enough faith to escape death!
No, it is God's will that Christians die. But if this, the ultimate evil, is
God's will, then poverty and sickness may also be.

Ultimately, the problem with "Easy Christianity's" gospel of health and wealth
is a matter of timing. After Christ's return, God does will perfect health and
unimaginable wealth for his sinless people. When, however, such blessings are
taught as present blessings for the Christian, the results can be cruel! Such
teaching raises false hopes. When such hopes are smashed, such teaching adds to
the burden of sickness and poverty -the false guilt of being told that only
their wicked unbelief stands between them and healing or riches. May God deliver
you from the cruelty of this false teaching of modern "Easy Christianity."
Prophecy and the Tribulation

Another characteristic of the "Easy Christianity" is its fascination with
prophecy. Other important topics may not draw the crowds, but prophecy will pack
the house! The fact is, the popular, prophetic scheme panders to the carnal itch
of many so-called Christians. Some who believe this scheme are serious
Christians, but the scheme itself is made to order for "Easy Christianity."

This is the case because this scheme teaches that Christians won't go through
"The Tribulation." The Bible teaches that just before the end of this age a
short period of heightened wickedness, violence, and persecution will occur
before Christ returns to rescue his people. This period is often called "The
Tribulation." From the earliest period of church history till the middle of the
last century every Christian teacher taught that the church would go through
"The Tribulation." This did not surprise the church since it had known all along
that "through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).

Such a prospect, however, was totally unacceptable to the followers of "Easy
Christianity." Thus, the teaching became popular that Christ would secretly come
before "The Tribulation" to take the church out of the world. Thus "comforted",
such "Christians" were freed to indulge their curiosity about prophecy secure in
the knowledge that it would all happen after they were gone. Such curiosity was
worse than useless, of course, since it could by definition have no personal
application.

Amazingly, this teaching became popular despite the fact that the Bible never
asserts it and, in fact, teaches the opposite in the clearest language (cf. 1
Thessalonians 4:13-5:11; 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10; 2:1-12; Matthew 24:29-51; Luke
17:22-37). Oh, the power of the heart to deceive itself! Do you have the kind of
Christianity that can enter the kingdom through many tribulations? Only such
Christianity will save you!
Prophecy and the Judgment

Many followers of "Easy Christianity" love to study prophecy. But biblical
prophecy has an annoying habit of returning again and again to the subject of
the coming judgment. The words, "every man will be rewarded according to his
deeds," are often repeated in the Bible. For the uneasy consciences of many
church-goers such reminders spoil all the fun! To the rescue comes the popular,
prophetic scheme taught in the notes of a well-known study Bible. It teaches
that there is a program of many judgments, not just one. What a relief this
theory is to such church-goers! It enables them to distract their consciences
from the great reality of judgment by studying the number and the placement of
these judgments in the prophetic scheme. Better yet, this theory assures them
that their deeds will not be the standard by which their eternal destinies in
heaven or hell will be determined. Oh, no! If they have once made their
"decision for Christ," they will go to a judgment reserved only for Christians.
Their deeds will only determine how big their bag of rewards will be. If they
are content with a modest palace in the New Jerusalem, they need not worry about
a holy life or good works.

Such teaching obscures and perverts the Biblical teaching on judgment and
endangers the souls of men! We are judged by our deeds, because our deeds show
our characters! One whose deeds and character are bad has never become a
Christian! Jesus said, "Either make the tree good, and its fruit good; or make
the tree rotten, and its fruit rotten; for the tree is known by its fruit...And
I say to you, that every careless word that men shall speak, they shall render
account for it in the day of judgment. For by your words you shall be justified,
and by your words you shall be condemned" (Matthew 12:33-37). There is one
judgment at which our deeds will determine whether we are authentic Christians
and whether our destinies will be heaven or hell (Matthew. 25:31-46; Acts 17:31;
John 5:28,29; Romans 2:7-10; 2 Peter 3:3-13).
Judge Not!

We are the tolerant society. Nothing much angers us any more. Nothing, that is,
except someone who is not as tolerant as we are! We can tolerate anything except
the person who won't tolerate anything! No wonder our favorite Bible verse is
Matthew 7:1, "Judge not that ye be not judged."

The new "unpardonable sin" is "judging." What a blessing this "new commandment"
is to "Easy Christianity." Hypocrites can flaunt their violations of the Word of
God and yet parade unchallenged as Christians. No one dares call them hypocrites
for ("Oh, Horrors!") that would be "judging them."

Tell anyone nowadays that he or someone else is doing wrong and you will be
immediately rebuked, "Don't Judge!" Is such a use of this verse proper? It
clearly is not.

It can't mean that we must give up all spiritual discernment in order to be
"loving Christians." Five verses later Jesus says, "Do not give what is holy to
dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine" (Matthew 7:6). This command
assumes the exercise of spiritual discernment. A few verses later Jesus said,
"Beware of false prophets...You will know them by their fruits" (Matthew
7:15,16,20). Again Jesus demands spiritual discernment. In Jesus' view it is not
"judging" to conclude that someone is a false prophet.

Is it, perhaps, our duty to keep such discerning conclusions to ourselves in
order to avoid "judging"? Emphatically not! Matthew 7:1 does not teach that it
is sinful to confront and, if necessary, publicly expose evil. If this were so,
how could Jesus say, "And if you brother sins, go and reprove him...?" How could
Jesus go on to say, "And if he refuses to listen...tell it to the church"?
(Matthew 18:15,17). How could Jesus' apostle, Paul, say, "Do you not judge those
who are within the church?...Remove the wicked man from among yourselves" (1
Corinthians 5:12,13).

Matthew 7:1 does not forbid us either to form or express our opinions about such
hypocrites. Jesus expressed such an opinion in this very passage. In Matthew 7:5
He said, "You hypocrite." John the Baptist expressed his opinion of the
Pharisees publicly to their faces, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee
from the wrath to come?" (Matthew 3:7). We must do the same. Jesus in this very
chapter (Matthew 7:15,16,20) commanded, "Beware of false prophets...you will
know them by their fruits."

It's time for Christians to stop being bound by such false interpretation and to
start dealing with sin. "Those who forsake the law praise the wicked, but those
who keep the law strive with them" (Proverbs 28:4)

So what does Matthew 7:1 mean? In this context, Jesus is forbidding forming or
expressing conclusions about others by those who won't see or deal with their
own sins. Matthew 7:3-5 says, "And why do you look at the speck in your
brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?...You
hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly
enough to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

If, on the basis of Matthew 7:1, you refuse to form and express (when necessary)
moral opinions, you are confessing your refusal to see and deal with your own
sins. The refusal to exercise moral discernment is a confession of moral
bankruptcy! May God embolden you to stop tolerating sin in yourself and others,
to your hurt and to theirs!

by Samuel Waldron

Taken From:
http://www.savedfromwhat.org/apps/blog/

and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to
all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. Luke 24:47

So many people are ready to go across the globe on a mission trip, but what are
you doing in your own Jerusalem? Have you spent anytime witnessing to people in
your area? Have you gone to a local park, courthouse, library, gas station,
school, to prolcaim the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? Then why are
you going on a mission trip to another country?

Why do people spend so much money to go to other countries to have glorified
vacations they call "mission trips?" Why are mission trips to other countries
viewed as such an amazing thing? It seems like all you have to do is say you are
going on a mission trip, come back with a couple of pictures of you hugging
children, and people look at you like you are Jesus. You don't even have to
share the gospel with someone. You could probably even get away with just giving
someone one of those bracelets with the different colored beads on it.

Obviously I am making some generalized statements, but I am addressing most of
what people think of when they think of missions.

Another question I have is why people spend so much money on these trips and yet
little is accomplished. Why spend the money if you are not going to spend most
of your time reaching out to people? If you spent more of your time eating, site
seeing, talking to Christians, or whatever you did, was it realy worth all of
the money you spent?

We as Christians should reevaluate how we spend our money on these trips and
change our tactics if the impact is minimal. We should also stop viewing these
overseas mission trips as the pinnacle of evangelism. There are amazing things
happening right here in our own Jerusalem and they cost a lot less to experience
them.

For example, this past week I spent time on GSU campus, at the Gwinnett Justice
and Administration Building, ACDC, and Taste Of Suwanee. I spoke with Catholics,
atheists, pantheists, Hindus, Buddhists, Muzlims, and professing Christians. I
had great conversations where I was able to share the gospel with many people. I
barely had to travel and it cost me very little other than transportation and
parking.

My trips may not be of interest to anyone. They may not be glamorous enough for
others to ask about. But the gospel was proclaimed to many and in that I
rejoice.

I spoke with Jonathan, a professing Christian, who came up to me at GSU
criticizing my methods of evangelism. I was open air preaching and he said there
has to be a better way other than yelling at people. He said we should be
building relationships with people and showing them we love them. John and I
asked him to support his views with Scripture and show us in Scripture where we
erred, but he could not. He then said we should not be judging people. When we
asked him what he meant by that, he said we did not have the right to tell
someone that what they are doing will send them to hell. He equated judging with
telling a person to repent or they will spend eternity in hell. He said he has
many friends who are homosexuals and other kinds of sinners. He said they know
that he disagrees with their lifestyle and they know he is a Christian. When we
asked if he ever told them they needed to repent or they would perish in hell he
said it was not his place to judge.

"What do you mean?" we asked. "How will they know they need to repent unless you
tell them?" We explained to Jonathan that it was his responsibility to tell his
friends they needed to repent. He strongly disagreed. We gave him a copy of
Hell's Best Kept Secret. He said Kirk Cameron is a family friend and he will see
him at Thanksgiving. When we told him to ask Kirk about all of this and that he
would tell him the same thing, Jonathan seemed doubtful that Kirk believed such
a thing. What an amazing conversation! People are so blind to what it means to
really proclaim Truth to people. We think we can get away with just telling them
Jesus loves them, but if we stick with this kind of evangelism, all of our
disciples will become twice a child of hell as we are.

At ACDC there were many people saying "amen brother" as they passed. What an
illogical socitey we live in! People were wearing devil horns going into ACDC to
listen to "Hell's Bells" and "I'm on the Highway to Hell" and they say they are
Christians. One lady, Kerana, who was bringing her 13 year old son Chance into
the concert tried to convince me two of the band members are Christians and she
said it did not make her any less of a Christian to be going in to the concert.

Some of the best series of sermons on the damnable heresies of the charismatic
movement on extra Biblical revelation by Trevor Hammack can be found on:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=7805161132

God Bless,
Mohan

I wanted to advise that my website has moved from www.geocities.com to the brand
new site created: www.thebibleonly.info

Here is an interested method of Bible study I got off a sermon on the web, the
devotional method of Bible study, which is very easy to do. Read about a group
of 25 verses, and in a notebook, jot down the following for the acronym SPACE
PETS:

S - What "SINS" are mentioned in the passage that you need to confess?
P - What direct or indirect "PROMISES" are mentioned in the passage?
A - What "ACTIONS" need to be avoided or what "ATTITUDES" do you need to change
according to the passage?
C - What "COMMAND" do you need to follow mentioned in this passage?
E - What positive or negative "EXAMPLES" are mentioned in this passage?

P - What is mentioned in this passage that you need to "PRAY" about?
E - What "ERRORS" are mentioned in the passage that you need to avoid in your
life?
T - What "TRUTH" is mentioned in the passage that you need to believe?
S - What is "SOMETHING" mentioned in the passage you can praise God about?

Blessed Week,
Mohan

----- Original Message -----

From: MohanKrishna

To: ReformedWatchmen@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 10:37 AM

Subject: [ReformedWatchmen] Oh, For The Good Old Days!

 

Taken From:
http://comingintheclouds.org/issues/olddays.htm

Oh, For The Good Old Days!

"The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise."
[Proverbs 12:15]

Oh, for the good old days, when even the unsaved in America knew that gambling, smoking, drinking, gluttony, gossip, immodesty and slothfulness were sins. Now, our world is filled with professing Christians who seem to love the things their lost neighbors love, without distinction. What happened to God's command to separate the holy from the profane?...

"Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them." [Ezekiel 22:26]

Oh, for the good old days when even the unsaved seemed to know what modesty meant. Now we have a generation of professing Christians who expose more of themselves at the beach (as if they should even be at the beach), than their great-grandparents would ever have thought even a harlot would have the gall to parade around in...

"Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy locks, make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers. Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man." [Isaiah 47:2-3 ]

"The just LORD is in the midst thereof; he will not do iniquity: every morning doth he bring his judgment to light, he faileth not; but the unjust knoweth no shame." [Zephaniah 3:5]

Oh, for the good old days, when parents acted like the heads of their households, instead of patsies at the beck and call of their tyrannical spoiled children when even the unsaved knew - if you spared the rod, you would surely spoil the child. Nowadays, we have professing Christian parents reasoning with toddlers - never mind their older children - when the only reasoning those toddlers need is to have their backside swatted - long enough to put the fear of God in them - not just long enough to get them to let out a few faked cries of pain so their parents will stop the spanking right away. The tail is wagging the dog as children manipulate parents who are woefully ignorant of basic principles of child discipline. Believe it or not, by God's grace, it is possible for children to have a fear of punishment without having a fear of their parents. And it is possible for parents to be swift and firm in discipline while reassuring their children that they love them...

"He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes (i.e. often!)." [Proverbs 13:24]

"Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying." [Proverbs 19:18]

"Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him." [Proverbs 23:13-15]

Oh, for the good old days when adults knew the meaning of "children are better seen than heard". This adage has much wisdom hidden in it. Parents are responsible for having a watchful eye on their children and not to let them hang out with whomever they want, unchaperoned or unsupervised. This quote also indicates that adults understood that properly disciplined children knew how to conduct themselves and they knew when it was appropriate and polite to speak and what kind of talk was proper...

"Better is an handful with quietness, than both the hands full with travail and vexation of spirit." [Ecclesiastes 4:6]

"And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you" [1 Thessalonians 4:11]

Oh, for the good old days before television, movies and video games, when people used their time productively and constructively. While today, even professing Christians ignore God's command to redeem the time and instead, they slothfully and sinfully set wicked things before their eyes every day and all day long, being worse than lazy, setting a horrendous example for their children and for the lost who need to see Christians busy about their Master's work, not busy becoming more and more desensitized to sin...

"I went by the field of the slothful, and by the vineyard of the man void of understanding; And, lo, it was all grown over with thorns, and nettles had covered the face thereof, and the stone wall thereof was broken down." [Proverbs 24:30-31]

"By much slothfulness the building decayeth; and through idleness of the hands the house droppeth through." [Ecclesiastes 10:18]

Oh, for the good old days, when Christians were thankful that their brothers and sisters in Christ corrected them and instructed them in the way of God more perfectly - as Pricilla and Aquila of the New Testament. But sadly, today, we have a growing number of Christians who cry legalism! and judgementalism! when someone dares to question the goings on in their lives. Such an attitude is a defense mechanism of those who wish to remain comfortable in their sin. If this kind of attitude is tolerated, it will promote more and more sin in the lives of the local congregation. Sin does not go away if we close our eyes to it. Likewise, sin is still sin even if everyone does not recognize it as such...

"Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us" [1Corinthians 5:6-7]

"Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." [Luke 17:3]

"Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear." [1 Timothy 5:20]

"Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time? Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?" [Luke 12:56-57]

"But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof" [Proverbs 1:25]

"I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?" [1 Corinthians 6:5]

Oh, for the good old days! Was there really less sin in the world or in this country in days gone by? Not necessarily. However, there have been times in history where God's people, as a whole, have been more conformed to Christ in their manner of living and less blinded to their sins than they appear to be in this day and age. And we cannot ignore the fact that one's outward behavior is a reflection of the inner man. We are self-deceived if we say that a believer can talk and act like his unsaved neighbors and yet be in the will of his Lord and Master and not in need of correction and repentance. When we accept mediocrity and sin that we do see we can expect the unseen sins to go on unchecked also. Is it merely the job of the local police department to deal with sin? Or by some chance, has God addressed this issue for His people?...

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" [2 Timothy 3:16]

"Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" [Galatians 4:16]

Taken From:
http://comingintheclouds.org/issues/olddays.htm

Oh, For The Good Old Days!

"The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel
is wise."
[Proverbs 12:15]

Oh, for the good old days, when even the unsaved in America knew that gambling,
smoking, drinking, gluttony, gossip, immodesty and slothfulness were sins.  Now,
our world is filled with professing Christians who seem to love the things their
lost neighbors love, without distinction.  What happened to God's command to
separate the holy from the profane?...

"Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have
put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed
difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my
sabbaths, and I am profaned among them." [Ezekiel 22:26]

Oh, for the good old days when even the unsaved seemed to know what modesty
meant. Now we have a generation of professing Christians who expose more of
themselves at the beach (as if they should even be at the beach), than their
great-grandparents would ever have thought even a harlot would have the gall to
parade around in...

"Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy locks, make bare the leg,
uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers.  Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea,
thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a
man." [Isaiah 47:2-3 ]

"The just LORD is in the midst thereof; he will not do iniquity: every morning
doth he bring his judgment to light, he faileth not; but the unjust knoweth no
shame." [Zephaniah 3:5]

Oh, for the good old days, when parents acted like the heads of their
households, instead of patsies at the beck and call of their tyrannical spoiled
children when even the unsaved knew - if you spared the rod, you would surely
spoil the child. Nowadays, we have professing Christian parents reasoning with
toddlers - never mind their older children - when the only reasoning those
toddlers need is to have their backside swatted  - long enough to put the fear
of God in them - not just long enough to get them to let out a few faked cries
of pain so their parents will stop the spanking right away. The tail is wagging
the dog as children manipulate parents who are woefully ignorant of basic
principles of child discipline. Believe it or not, by God's grace, it is
possible for children to have a fear of punishment without having a fear of
their parents. And it is possible for parents to be swift and firm in discipline
while reassuring their children that they love them...

"He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him
betimes (i.e. often!)." [Proverbs 13:24]

"Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his
crying." [Proverbs 19:18]

"Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod,
he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul
from hell. Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of
correction shall drive it far from him." [Proverbs 23:13-15]

Oh, for the good old days when adults knew the meaning of "children are better
seen than heard". This adage has much wisdom hidden in it.  Parents are
responsible for having a watchful eye on their children and not to let them hang
out with whomever they want, unchaperoned or unsupervised. This quote also
indicates that adults understood that properly disciplined children knew how to
conduct themselves and they knew when it was appropriate and polite to speak and
what kind of talk was proper...

"Better is an handful with quietness, than both the hands full with travail and
vexation of spirit." [Ecclesiastes 4:6]

"And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with
your own hands, as we commanded you" [1 Thessalonians 4:11]

Oh, for the good old days before television, movies and video games, when people
used their time productively and constructively.  While today, even professing
Christians ignore God's command to redeem the time and instead, they slothfully
and sinfully set wicked things before their eyes every day and all day long,
being worse than lazy, setting a horrendous example for their children and for
the lost who need to see Christians busy about their Master's work, not busy
becoming more and more desensitized to sin...

"I went by the field of the slothful, and by the vineyard of the man void of
understanding;  And, lo, it was all grown over with thorns, and nettles had
covered the face thereof, and the stone wall thereof was broken down." [Proverbs
24:30-31]

"By much slothfulness the building decayeth; and through idleness of the hands
the house droppeth through." [Ecclesiastes 10:18]

Oh, for the good old days, when Christians were thankful that their brothers and
sisters in Christ corrected them and instructed them in the way of God more
perfectly - as Pricilla and Aquila of the New Testament.  But sadly, today, we
have a growing number of Christians who cry legalism! and judgementalism! when
someone dares to question the goings on in their lives. Such an attitude is a
defense mechanism of those who wish to remain comfortable in their sin. If this
kind of attitude is tolerated, it will promote more and more sin in the lives of
the local congregation.  Sin does not go away if we close our eyes to it. 
Likewise, sin is still sin even if everyone does not recognize it as such...

"Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole
lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are
unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us" [1Corinthians
5:6-7]

"Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and
if he repent, forgive him." [Luke 17:3]

"Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear." [1 Timothy 5:20]

"Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is
it that ye do not discern this time? Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye
not what is right?" [Luke 12:56-57]

"But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof"
[Proverbs 1:25]

"I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no,
not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?" [1 Corinthians 6:5]

Oh, for the good old days! Was there really less sin in the world or in this
country in days gone by? Not necessarily. However, there have been times in
history where God's people, as a whole, have been more conformed to Christ in
their manner of living and less blinded to their sins than they appear to be in
this day and age. And we cannot ignore the fact that one's outward behavior is a
reflection of the inner man. We are self-deceived if we say that a believer can
talk and act like his unsaved neighbors and yet be in the will of his Lord and
Master and not in need of correction and repentance. When we accept mediocrity
and sin that we do see we can expect the unseen sins to go on unchecked also. Is
it merely the job of the local police department to deal with sin? Or by some
chance, has God addressed this issue for His people?...

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine,
for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" [2 Timothy 3:16]

"Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" [Galatians
4:16]

Taken From:
http://www.godcentered.info/blog.html

The well known British pastor and evangelist of the last century, Leonard
Ravenhill said,

"There's only one proof of the Holy Ghost in your life and that's a holy life".
He said,

"Get rid of this bunkum about the `carnal Christian'. For�get it! If you're
carnal, you're not saved."[1]
It is quite common to say that someone was saved�they prayed a prayer or they
confessed that they were saved and trusting in Christ's work on the cross to
save them. Yet after a while they fall away and go back to their former life. We
are told that they have accepted Jesus Christ as Savior, but one day they need
to accept him as Lord. Some eventually die in their sins. In his book I Call it
Heresy Tozer loudly warned of the damage this false teaching does to the offices
of Christ. He said:
The Lord will not save those whom He cannot command. He will not divide His
offices. You cannot believe on a half-Christ. We take Him for what He is--the
anointed Saviour and Lord who is King of kings and Lord of all lords! He would
not be Who He is if He saved us and called us and chose us without the
understanding that He can also guide and control our lives.[2]
Let me define what I mean when I say the "carnal Christian" doctrine or
teaching.[3] This doctrine teaches that there are two classes of Christians:
spiritual and carnal. This theory holds that a person who is a new creation in
Christ can practice sin as a lifestyle, and though continuing in sin, he still
has the hope of heaven. These professors are considered Christians who are
carnal, not yet having come to a point of surrender.[4] This is seen in our
churches especially with those who have made professions of faith as children.
Little or no meaningful growth takes place in their life, but because they asked
the Lord to save them on one occasion, they are considered a true and genuine
believer in Christ.

The Heart of the Matter
I want to propose to you that the Scriptures teach that the "carnal Christian"
is no Christian at all. This kind of person is addressed in Scripture in many
places. He is a "hearer of the Word and not a doer" (James 1:23). As Hebrews 6
says, he is the one who seems to taste of Christianity, but falls away. He says
he has faith, but he gives no evidence that God is working in him "to will and
to do of His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13). As James says, faith without the
works of holiness that come from the indwelling Spirit is no faith at all�it is
a dead faith (2:20).

History of this False Teaching
The carnal Christian doctrine of today is just an old heresy called
"antinomianism". "Anti" means "no" and "nomian" means "law". In other words,
antinomianism is the teaching that a Christian may practice a lawless life
without the rule of Christ in his heart.

This is actually not a new controversy. H. A. Ironside, former pastor of the
Moody Church of Chicago fought against it in his day when he said:

�there are not wanting[5] professed preachers of grace who, like the antinomians
of old, decry the necessity of repentance� Loudly declaring they are justified
by faith alone, they fail to remember that `faith without works is dead'.[6]
In recent days, this false teaching was revived with the Scofield Study Bible.
According to Ernest Reisinger:

One reason why [the carnal Christian doctrine] is so widespread is that it has
been popularized for many years in the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible. A
statement from these notes will indicate the precise nature of the teaching:
Paul divides men into three classes: "Natural" i.e. the Adamic Man, unrenewed
through the new birth; "Spiritual" i.e. the renewed man as Spirit-filled and
walking in the Spirit in full communion with God; "Carnal", "fleshly", i.e. the
renewed man who, walking "after the flesh", remains a babe in Christ" (Scofield
Reference Bible, pp. 1213, 1214).[7]
John MacArthur confirms this. He says:

The doctrine apparently stemmed from Chafer's misguided attempts to develop a
uniquely dispensationalist soteriology. Chafer (together with other early
dispensationalists, including C. I. Scofield) was so zealous to eliminate every
vestige of law from the dispensation of grace that he embraced a kind of
antinomianism.[8]

Charles Ryrie is also a proponent of it. He said, referring to 1 Corinthians 3:

Paul can only mean that these Carnal Christians lived like unsaved men. That
clarifies why the word Carnal can label both unbelievers and believers, simply
because the lifestyles of both are the same.[9]
The once well-known Baptist preacher R. B. Thieme frames the argument in the way
most of us have heard it from the pulpit.

The behavior pattern of a carnal Christian cannot be distinguished from that of
an unbeliever 1 Corinthians 3:3. As far as God's Word is concerned you may act
like an unbeliever; but if you have believed in Christ, you are still a believer
� a believer in the status quo carnality � out of fellowship. A BELIEVER OUT OF
FELLOWSHIP ACTS LIKE AN UNBELIEVER. In fact he is sometime worse.[10]
Scofield, Chafer, Ryrie, and Thieme assure us that they got this idea from a
passage in 1 Corinthians 3:1-4. Let's look at what Paul says there.

Brief Study of 1 Corinthians 3

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal,
even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for
hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are
yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions,
are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and
another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? (1 Corinthians 3:1-4).
Taken out of context, Scofield and the others might seem to be right. But when
looking at the entire letter that Paul wrote, we find that in this passage, Paul
was rebuking the church as a whole for an area of carnality in their lives. They
needed to learn about how to resolve personal conflicts. They were acting as
unregenerate people in an area of their lives. He was not saying that they were
living without spiritual fruit in their lives. In chapter 1 Paul talked about
how they were living lives that were focused on Jesus' coming, and Paul gave
thanks to God for them in verses 4-8:

I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by
Jesus Christ; That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and
in all knowledge; Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: So that
ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who
shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our
Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul established that they were growing in holiness before the rebuke later in
chapter 1 and in chapter 3! In the above verses, Paul testifies of their
holiness. In "every thing' they were "enriched by Him [Christ]"�in their words
("utterance"), thoughts ("knowledge"), and life ("the testimony of Christ was
confirmed in [them]"). Paul affirms that the Lord Jesus Christ who saved them
would "also confirm [them] to the end" (verse 8). He is not dividing the people
into three classes, natural, carnal, and spiritual, but teaching that truly
saved people will grow in holiness. Actually in chapter 2 Paul names only two
types of people: the natural man who does not receive the things of God's Spirit
(1 Corinthians 2:14), and those who are indwelt by the Spirit, who do. Paul goes
to great length to explain how they have the Spirit of God in them. In chapter 2
and verse 10, Paul says God has revealed the "deep things" of God's Spirit to
them. Paul shows further spiritual fruit, how they were being taught by the Holy
Spirit Himself (verse 13). He said in verse 14 that the natural or unsaved
person could not understand the things of the Spirit, but they weren't like
that. Verse 16 Paul says to them: "we have the mind of Christ".

What's the point? Paul is not saying that their lives were characterized by
carnality as a way of life. These were not people living in sin and rebellion to
God who had professed salvation but had no spiritual fruit. They were people
with new hearts who were producing authentic spiritual fruit, but like all
believers they were struggling with an area or two of their lives, and it was
affecting the whole church in this instance. They needed to progress in their
sanctification.

So having shown briefly that this passage does not teach another class of
believers, I want to show you that the Word of God refutes this doctrine
throughout. As we look at the span of the Bible, the message is that those who
are saved are new creations. They have a new heart and a new nature, and they
grow and change to be like Christ. If you have no measure of fruit in your life,
you are not a Christian no matter how many times you prayed a prayer.

This is not only my conclusion, but many before me have refuted this doctrine.
A. W. Tozer called this doctrine a heresy.[11]



John Bunyan, who spent twelve years total in the Bedford prison for the faith,
though not addressing it directly, refuted this false teaching, saying this:

�a life of holiness and godliness in this world doth so inseparably follow a
principle of faith, that it is both monstrous and ridiculous to suppose the
contrary. What, shall not he that hath life have motion! (Galatians 2:20). He
that hath by faith received the Spirit of holiness, shall not he be holy?
(Galatians 3:2), and he that is called to glory and virtue, shall not he add to
his faith virtue? (2 Peter 1:4-5).[12]
The Bible teaches that an ongoing life of carnality is an impossibility in the
Christian life. Why is that? The Scriptures teach that all those God has elected
for salvation are also foreordained by His unchangeable decree to produce the
fruits of holiness. We are "chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the
Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit for obedience" (1 Peter 1:2).
The Bible teaches that all who are justified are predestined to be sanctified.
All saints are predestined for holiness.

Certainly there are baby Christians, but baby Christians are guaranteed to come
to some sort of holiness. There are different levels of holiness in the life. We
are all growing and changing at different measures, but there is a measurable
holiness. Christians also may struggle with an area of carnality in their life.
The point is there is a battle. There is a difference in attitude toward sin in
the Christian. A Christian longs to be holy. Why is that? We are going to see
that God has ordained it to be so. He has also made sure that holiness would
occur through regeneration, which gives the person a new nature that longs for
holiness. He also made sure that holiness would occur by putting His Spirit
inside of believers to "cause" them to walk in holiness and obedience (Ezekiel
36:27).

The Word of God directly refutes the so-called "carnal Christian" teaching in
many, many places, first because of God's decree that all Christians will be
conformed to the image of Christ progressively in this life. The Scriptures
teach that all those God has foreordained for salvation are also foreordained by
God's unchangeable decree to produce the fruits of holiness. In other words, it
is impossible for a person who has been called by God to salvation to not be
holy. We can see this clearly from the book of Ephesians.

The Teaching of Ephesians
The teaching of Ephesians is that we are foreordained for good works. God has
ordained and decreed before the foundation of the world that all those the
Father gives to the Son will walk in good works. Paul tells us why we have come
to Jesus Christ in Ephesians 1:4, "According as he hath chosen us in him before
the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him
in love". No one can claim election and justification who does not practice a
lifestyle that is "holy and without blame before God in love". Ephesians 2:10
likewise says that "we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good
works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them". We were
created to be lights on a hill and candles on a candle stick. God created us
anew so that we could shine as lights in this dark world. Shall those who do not
shine have the right to bear the name Christian?

Sealed with the Impression of Holiness
In other words, God has predestined our holiness. If we are called into His
family He will be sure that we bear the family likeness. Ephesians 4:30 tells us
that all Christians "are sealed unto the day of redemption." God's Holy Spirit
has sealed us. In other words, He put the impression of God's likeness on our
soul when we were regenerated. Regeneration is God giving to us the new nature.
With that sealing of the Holy Spirit, every child of God is guaranteed to become
more and more like Jesus Christ.

The Teaching of Romans
We see God's predestination for holiness for all genuine Christians again in
Romans 8:28-30. We are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. In
other words, all who God "foreknew" and "called" and "justified" (i.e. all true
Christians) are predestined for a holy and blameless life, being "conformed to
the image of God's Son". Who is Paul talking about? Again, it must be emphasized
that Paul is speaking of all true Christians without exception. All who are
predestined are called. All who are called are justified. All whom God
justified, He is conforming to the image of His Son, and He will one day glorify
them with sinless perfection in glory.

If you are called, you are not simply called to be forgiven of your past sins,
but you are called to forsake your present sins and follow Christ and to be
conformed to His image. This is the purpose of God in drawing a sinner to
Himself�to conform them and mold them into the image of Christ. As I said, a
Christian will fail along the way. He will be very aware of his daily failure,
but he will cling to Christ along the way. And day by day he will be more
conformed to the image of Christ. This purpose of God cannot be defeated in any
one of His chosen people. If some measure of a holy life does not follow
salvation, then God's purpose in saving you is defeated, and that is impossible.

We are predestined to walk in good works and to be conformed to the image of
Jesus Christ. If that can be taken away from this chain of redemption, then our
whole salvation falls.

The Teaching of 2 Corinthians
Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:17, "If any man be in Christ he is a new creation",
literally a new creation, "old things are passing away, all things are becoming
new" (author's translation). Why must the old sinful life go and the new holy
life take its place?�Because we are Christ's new creation. In other words, we
have a new nature. The new heart (new nature) produces a harvest of holiness.
New and godly and God-pleasing fruit are coming out of your life if you are born
again�guaranteed by the eternal decree of God from before the foundation of the
world.

An Objection
Someone might say that demanding holiness makes works a necessary element of
salvation. By salvation this person means justification. Works have nothing to
do with justification. A person must come as he is to Jesus Christ. He must not
seek to change himself, but simply come. As Jesus said, the sinner's need is to
be "born again" (John 3:3). Until the new birth he cannot change. But the
Bible's contention is that if a person does indeed experience the new birth
(i.e. regeneration) he will inevitably and most certainly change.

Yet as far as making oneself ready to come to Christ, there is nothing that the
sinner can do to make himself fit. He cannot change himself. He must utterly
yield himself to Christ to perform the miracle of the new birth. If he tries to
make himself better before coming to Christ, he will never come because he will
never be fit. It is just as the glorious hymn says:

Let not conscience make you linger,
Nor of fitness fondly dream,
All the fitness He requireth Is to feel your need of Him.
I will arise and go to Jesus
He will embrace me in his arm.
In the arms of my dear Saviour
O there are ten thousand charms.[13]

God's purpose for every one of His redeemed children is to conform them in this
life to the magnificent image of Jesus Christ. That is the doctrine of
progressive sanctification, or progressive holiness. All who are genuine
Christians will most definitely become more and more like Christ. We either
believe this doctrine or we do not. We find it every where in the Scriptures.

Teaching of Hebrews and Philippians
Hebrews 12 and Philippians 1 are also clear about this. Hebrews 12:1 tells us
that Jesus Christ is not only the "Author" of your faith (Hebrews 12:1), but He
is also the "Finisher". As Paul tells us in Philippians 1:6, "he which hath
begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ". Christ
conquered death to make us holy like Himself. As Hebrews 12:14 says, "Follow
peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord". The
word "follow" indicates "an earnest pursuit or a dedicated striving after". This
pursuit is the fruit of the new heart.

Let me say unequivocally and absolutely with no exception that all who are
called and justified in Jesus Christ will be conformed in some noticeable
measure to Jesus Christ. "By their fruits ye shall know them" was our Lord's
promise. Those who teach otherwise are false teachers who twist and contradict
the Scriptures.

Tyndale's Words
Let us take heed to the words of William Tyndale from his introduction to the
book of Romans:

"Right faith is a gift wrought by the Holy Ghost in us, which changes us, turns
us into a new creature with a new nature, and `births' us anew in God making us
the sons of God�.Right faith kills the old Adam, and makes us all together new
in our heart, mind, will, desire, and in all our affections and powers of the
soul. It brings the Holy Ghost with it in us. Faith is a lively thing, mighty in
working, valiant, and strong, ever doing, ever fruitful so that it is impossible
that those who are endued with it should not work always towards good works
without ceasing."[14]

With Tyndale we ought to say it is impossible that those endued with divine
faith and the transformation of heart in regeneration should not have holiness
of life! Every child of God without exception is regenerated, given a new
nature, passed from death to life, or as John so often says, "born again" (John
3:3).

R C Sproul sounded the alarm on this so-called "carnal Christian" teaching on
James White's radio program. He said:

"You know, you hear so much about the carnal Christian�the person who is really
saved, but his life doesn't change. You can't find that in the Bible. That's
nonsense. That's a theology that's been created to account for false
professions."[15]
The most sobering reality in this entire study is the fact that people's souls
hang in the balance. If we do not understand the Gospel rightly, we can very
easily give the people we influence a false assurance of heaven and inoculate
them from the true message of the Gospel. If we do not expect the Gospel to be
the power of God to change the very nature of man, then we very likely may be
preaching another Gospel.

Posted by Matthew Black

Taken from cnn.com

(CNN) -- A Muslim teenager from Ohio says her father threatened to kill her
because she converted to Christianity.


Rifqa Bary claims her father wants her dead after she converted to Christianity.

Rifqa Bary, 17, ran away from her family in Columbus, Ohio, in July and took
refuge in the central Florida home of the Rev. Blake Lorenz with the Global
Revolution Church in Orlando.

The teen heard of the pastor and his church through a prayer group on Facebook.
The girl's parents reported her missing to Columbus police, who found her two
weeks later in Florida through cell phone records.

The teenager, in a sworn affidavit, claims her father, Mohamed Bary, 47, was
pressured by the mosque the family attends in Ohio to "deal with the situation."
In the court filing, Rifqa Bary stated her father said, "If you have this Jesus
in your heart, you are dead to me!" The teenager claims her father added, "I
will kill you!"

Mohamed Bary told CNN a lot of false information has been given and "we wouldn't
do her harm." He knew his daughter was involved with Christian organizations.

"I have no problem with her practicing any faith," he said, but Bary admitted he
would have preferred his daughter to practice the Muslim faith first.

Although Mohamed Bary said he did not expect his daughter to run away, Rifqa
Bary was placed in foster care by an Orlando judge in August while the Florida
Department of Children and Family investigated the threat allegations against
the parents.

In a court filing Monday, John Stemberger, Rifqa Bary's attorney and president
of the Christian advocacy organization Florida Family Policy Council, accused
the parents' Ohio mosque of having ties to terrorism and radical Islam. The Noor
Islamic Cultural Center has denied the allegations.

Stemberger told CNN he agreed with his client that she would be killed by
radical Muslims if she is returned to Ohio.

"She is a person who is ripe for apostate killing or mercy killing. I'm not
going to let my client slip away in the night by going back," said Stemberger.

Roger Weeden, the mother's attorney in Florida, said the filing had no credible
evidence but instead was meant "just to inflame the community and the court."
Weeden said he believes the teen's attorney is trying to create an atmosphere of
fear and intimidation.

The teen's attorney said his client has endured a history of abuse from her
family. Stemberger said the young girl was forced to wear the Muslim headscarf
called a hijab and was punched in the face by her father for being ashamed while
wearing it.

Stemberger is asking the court to keep Rifqa Bary in the custody of the state of
Florida until she turns 18 in a year.

Mohamed Bary, who is not a United States citizen, said he can't believe all the
false allegations and the bad image caused by the situation.

"We are not bad people," Bary said. "We are not like that, we are normal."

The mother's attorney said the teenager was a normal girl, a cheerleader in
Ohio, and what Muslim extremist would allow his daughter be a cheerleader?

At a court hearing scheduled for Thursday in Orlando, the parents will have an
opportunity to respond to the allegations against them. Their attorney said the
parents will deny all allegations.

After the court hearing, the judge may force all the parties involved into
mediation, followed by an adjudication hearing.

----- Original Message -----

From: Harold Smith

To: ReformedWatchmen@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 5:01 PM

Subject: Re: [ReformedWatchmen] Re: Who Chooses?

 

At 07:52 PM 29/08/2009, you wrote:

Harold,

We are asking here how someone is thirsty for the true God and gospel, not a false religion. Everyone is thirsty for their own man made religion. Romans 9:16 indicates it only depends on God's mercy, not on our will. We would all exercise our freedom to sin if left to us, no one wants to be saved the Biblical way. Mark 7:21-22 describes the heart of man, I cannot even begin to think how in the world someone who has that kind of heart can exercise their free will to repent and believe. This problem is resolved if we understand God gives the gifts of faith and repentance. In Matthew 23:37, God is showing his sadness at how mankind has sinned, as he has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, however, God has to carry out his justice and punish sin. As far as God's timetable in saving someone, God opened Lydia's heart in the book of Acts not when she wished to exercise her free will, but God opened her heart. As many as were ordained to eternal life in the book of Acts believed. God will make sure that his elect will believe, and it is true, whosoever believes will be saved, but the question is, who will believe? How does someone believe and repent? Those who believe they have free will in salvation will never be able to answer the question I posed as to why one person sees their need for Christ and the other does not. I am glad God is sovereign in salvation, call it extreme to believe this if you wish,  as I know personally I never went out looking for the true gospel, I had absolutely no interest in it, but out of the blue, a stranger gave me a gospel tract who I never saw again, and God began to work. If I had free will, why did not God allow me to exercise it as a kid? Praise God ALL the credit goes to Him!

Mohan

Here is my post today to others:
THE BIBLE ANSWERS                                                   By Harold Smith
QUESTION:  If someone believed and worshiped God and were not told or understood and did not receive Jesus Christ as Savior, are they still judged and held accountable for something they did not know? Would they go to heaven?
ANSWER: There are three basic lights God has given to mankind. They are:
        1- The light of conscience, Rom. 2:14,15,  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:  Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another. These will be judged because they had an understanding of right and wrong, and did nothing about it.  They will be lost.
        2- The light of Creation, Rom.1: 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Man everywhere has this light and if they die that way they will be judged accordingly. They will be lost. �Without excuse.�  This is evidently all the light they wanted.
        3- The light of the Gospel or word of God, 2 Tim 1:10,  But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
         Light # 1 and 2 should lead man to light # 3 where he can find life (eternal) and immortality. Apart from the Gospel nobody can be saved. However, the lights # 1, 2 cannot be known by small children and retarded people, so they are covered by Christ who offered the �sin offering� of Lev. 4:1... He is the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. John 1:29.
        The lights 1, 2 is well known by intelligent men everywhere. They cannot be saved by that light. They will be judged according to the  light they have and the deeds they have done. Read; Rev. 20:12,13; Matt 11:23,24
        When those of # 1, 2 want more light, God sends missionaries to them to tell them the gospel that they might be saved. When they don�t want that light then they are without excuse and will perish in their sins and suffering accordingly. For more on this see my article, �Are the heathens  lost.�
        Dear Reader, do be among them that turns to the Saviour and trusts Him.

Warmly,
Harold

--- In ReformedWatchmen@yahoogroups.com, Harold Smith <inchrist@...> wrote:
>
> At 12:33 AM 28/08/2009, you wrote:
> >Harold,
> >
> >Yes, I agree with Revelation 22:17 as it is in the Word. This is a
> >great verse of promise that whosever is athirst may come, regardless
> >of age, tribe, nation or language. There is great hope for sinners.
> >God is not a respector of persons. However, this verse does not
> >detail how someone becomes thirsty,
>
> Dear Mohan,
> Every man has a thirst in them when they are born. That thirst is a
> God vacuum of some sort. This is why there are billions of gods that
> man has made. They are seeking something for the after life.  This is
> true of all men. They cannot find the true God, so that is why God
> has provided salvation and sent out His messengers to tell fallen
> mankind that the can drink of the water of life freely.
>
> >we have to look elsewhere in the Bible for that. This leads to the
> >list of scenarios you brought up, and I think I was going to bring
> >up something similar by asking how is it that someone becomes saved
> >maybe years after hearing the Gospel. You would agree with a verse
> >like Titus 3:5 that is not by any righteous act we have done, but by
> >God's mercy alone that we are saved.
>
> Amen!
>
> >God has his own timetable as to when he saves someone,
>
> Where do you get this from?
>
> >since the work of salvation is all of God.
>
> That is true, He has planned and provided it in His Son. He has sent
> the Spirit to convince man that he needs that Saviour. Once they are
> confronted with the gospel then they must repent and believe or
> perish. This is not salvation, but the way to get in on it.
>
> >Just as God determined when we are born physically,
>
> This eliminated man altogether.  Your concept of the Sovereignty is
> so extreme that it leaves no place for man's freedom  to act at
> all.   Did God ordain that Jesus would gather Israel when on earth,
> but they would not? Matt. 23:37  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that
> killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how
> often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen
> gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!  He would,
> they would not. Was this ordained by God.?
>
>
> >he determines the same thing as to when we are born spiritually,
> >John 3:3-7. If the Bible gives the answer as to why someone responds
> >and another one does not, it is not at all risky to ask others that question.
>
> The onus of one responding and another not is not on God, but on
> man.  Let us not make man an irresponsible robot. The whole basic of
> God future judgment is base on what made does or does not.  If he had
> no choice than he cannot justly be held accountable.
>
> >And I believe that this is a question we must all answer Biblically,
> >it cannot be ignored, otherwise false conclusions can be made on the
> >doctrines of salvation. If the Bible says we are all sinners, and no
> >man CAN come to the father, we know that someone's so called good
> >heart or will is not the reason they see their need for Christ more
> >than another person.
>
> It is not a matter of good heart or will, when a person get saved it
> is out of desperation that they do.
>
> I firmly believe that God is sovereign. A proper understanding of
> that is that He has purposes and He will perform them. No man or
> demons can hinder Him. Isa. 14:24  The LORD of hosts hath sworn,
> saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I
> have purposed, so shall it stand:
>
> Election is always aim at God's purposes and not the destiny of
> man.  This is clear where the word is used in Rom.9:11  (For the
> children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,
> that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of
> works, but of him that calleth;)   His purpose in Gen 3:15 was to
> bring a Seed into the world that would eventually destroy the serpent
> (Devil) He choose Jacob and not Esau to build the nation that would
> be the  people that would bring that Seed into the world. He said
> before they were born to the mother, "Two nations and in thy womb.."
> Gen. 25:23 He never had two boys in view here, chosen to go to heaven or hell.
>
> Christ is the elect of God Isa. 42:1  All God's purposes are in Him.
> Eph. 3:11,  According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in
> Christ Jesus our Lord: All the saved are elect in Christ and God's
> purposes will be accomplished in them. All believers have all been
> predetermined  to be conformed to the likeness of His beloved Son. Rom. 8:29
>
> The will of man is free.  He can repent or he cannot. He can believe
> or he cannot.
>
> The Lord bless,
>
> Harold
>
>
> >Mohan
> >
> >--- In ReformedWatchmen@yahoogroups.com, Harold Smith <inchrist@> wrote:
> > >
> > > At 02:13 PM 27/08/2009, you wrote:
> > > >Harold,
> > > Dear Brother Mohan,
> > > Thank you for your mail.
> > >
> > >
> > > >Thanks for the reply. I am happy to discuss further the scriptures
> > > >brought up, however, I wanted to camp in one area for right now and
> > > >maybe go to some other issues later. I still have not received a
> > > >satisfactory Biblical answer to the reason why someone receives
> > > >Christ while the other person does not.
> > >
> > > You and others might use this because of your belief, but this only
> > > further shows you that it is not God who calls  the "whosoevers," but
> > > the whosoevers who does not respond and comes to take the water of
> > > life freely, Rev 22:17
> > >
> > > >You indicated that one person sees the need for Christ more than
> > > >another person, and a while back, you could not answer why that is
> > > >the case that someone sees the need more than another person.
> > >
> > > The needs of all are produced by the preaching of the gospel and
> > > working of the Holy Spirit. This is why the disciples were told to
> > > preach the gospel to every creature Mark 16:15
> > >
> > > >I still am not satisfied at that type of response. Am I not teaching
> > > >the Bible when I say the reason is that no one wants Christ per
> > > >Ephesians 2, Romans 3, the Isaiah scripture that our good works are
> > > >filthy rags,
> > >
> > > I agree with you on this 100%
> > >
> > > >that God is the author and finisher of our faith,
> > >
> > > This phrase comes from Heb. 12:2, and if you read it carefully in the
> > > context it is not Christ as our Saviour, but Christ as our example of
> > > running the race that is in view.. He is the only one who began and
> > > finished perfectly the race set before Him.  If you will notice the
> > > finisher of 'our' faith. the 'our' is in italics and is not in the
> > > original. He is the finisher of faith.
> > >
> > > >and that our heart is deceitful? Am I not Biblical when I say we are
> > > >born sinners therefore all of us deserve hell including
> > >
> > > I would agree 100% with you on this.
> > >
> > > >  a child? Anyone who knows me knows that I want to look at
> > > > scripture only, not what any confession, pastor, or denomination
> > > > says, therefore, I am looking forward to your Biblical answer to
> > > > the question as to why one person sees the need for Christ more
> > > > than another person.
> > >
> > > A preacher of years ago had a son that heard the gospel over and over
> > > all his life and did not respond.  At a Conference a few years ago we
> > > got an announcement that that son at 82 years old (I think) had just
> > > got saved, Why was it he was not saved as a boy.? Who knows??
> > >
> > > I remember another man that sat in a gospel meeting nearly every
> > > Sunday night for 42 years, I visited him in the hospital a month or
> > > so before he died and still unsaved. As far as I know he died that way.Why?
> > >
> > > I worked and drank with a friend for some years before I was saved,
> > > fifty-seven years ago this month.  He died a while ago in his sins.
> > > Why I was saved and he wasn't is the difference in our reaction to
> > > the gospel. Why did I responded and he did not.? Who knows?
> > >
> > > It is rather risky to build any sound doctrine on "why?"
> > >
> > > Brother, I appreciate your zeal in witnessing and pray the Lord to
> > > bless the good news you are spreading. I am not in agreement with how
> > > you expect them to get the benefits of it. You are offering them some
> > > thing that they might not be able to have. The word "whosoever" is
> > > everywhere in the N.T. associated with salvation.
> > >
> > > The Lord Bless you,
> > > Harold
> > >
> > >
> > > >Thanks,
> > > >Mohan
> > > >
> > > >--- In ReformedWatchmen@yahoogroups.com, Harold Smith <



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17:51:00

Harold,

We are asking here how someone is thirsty for the true God and gospel, not a
false religion. Everyone is thirsty for their own man made religion. Romans 9:16
indicates it only depends on God's mercy, not on our will. We would all exercise
our freedom to sin if left to us, no one wants to be saved the Biblical way.
Mark 7:21-22 describes the heart of man, I cannot even begin to think how in the
world someone who has that kind of heart can exercise their free will to repent
and believe. This problem is resolved if we understand God gives the gifts of
faith and repentance. In Matthew 23:37, God is showing his sadness at how
mankind has sinned, as he has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, however,
God has to carry out his justice and punish sin. As far as God's timetable in
saving someone, God opened Lydia's heart in the book of Acts not when she wished
to exercise her free will, but God opened her heart. As many as were ordained to
eternal life in the book of Acts believed. God will make sure that his elect
will believe, and it is true, whosoever believes will be saved, but the question
is, who will believe? How does someone believe and repent? Those who believe
they have free will in salvation will never be able to answer the question I
posed as to why one person sees their need for Christ and the other does not. I
am glad God is sovereign in salvation, call it extreme to believe this if you
wish,  as I know personally I never went out looking for the true gospel, I had
absolutely no interest in it, but out of the blue, a stranger gave me a gospel
tract who I never saw again, and God began to work. If I had free will, why did
not God allow me to exercise it as a kid? Praise God ALL the credit goes to Him!

Mohan



--- In ReformedWatchmen@yahoogroups.com, Harold Smith <inchrist@...> wrote:
>
> At 12:33 AM 28/08/2009, you wrote:
> >Harold,
> >
> >Yes, I agree with Revelation 22:17 as it is in the Word. This is a
> >great verse of promise that whosever is athirst may come, regardless
> >of age, tribe, nation or language. There is great hope for sinners.
> >God is not a respector of persons. However, this verse does not
> >detail how someone becomes thirsty,
>
> Dear Mohan,
> Every man has a thirst in them when they are born. That thirst is a
> God vacuum of some sort. This is why there are billions of gods that
> man has made. They are seeking something for the after life.  This is
> true of all men. They cannot find the true God, so that is why God
> has provided salvation and sent out His messengers to tell fallen
> mankind that the can drink of the water of life freely.
>
> >we have to look elsewhere in the Bible for that. This leads to the
> >list of scenarios you brought up, and I think I was going to bring
> >up something similar by asking how is it that someone becomes saved
> >maybe years after hearing the Gospel. You would agree with a verse
> >like Titus 3:5 that is not by any righteous act we have done, but by
> >God's mercy alone that we are saved.
>
> Amen!
>
> >God has his own timetable as to when he saves someone,
>
> Where do you get this from?
>
> >since the work of salvation is all of God.
>
> That is true, He has planned and provided it in His Son. He has sent
> the Spirit to convince man that he needs that Saviour. Once they are
> confronted with the gospel then they must repent and believe or
> perish. This is not salvation, but the way to get in on it.
>
> >Just as God determined when we are born physically,
>
> This eliminated man altogether.  Your concept of the Sovereignty is
> so extreme that it leaves no place for man's freedom  to act at
> all.   Did God ordain that Jesus would gather Israel when on earth,
> but they would not? Matt. 23:37  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that
> killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how
> often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen
> gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!  He would,
> they would not. Was this ordained by God.?
>
>
> >he determines the same thing as to when we are born spiritually,
> >John 3:3-7. If the Bible gives the answer as to why someone responds
> >and another one does not, it is not at all risky to ask others that question.
>
> The onus of one responding and another not is not on God, but on
> man.  Let us not make man an irresponsible robot. The whole basic of
> God future judgment is base on what made does or does not.  If he had
> no choice than he cannot justly be held accountable.
>
> >And I believe that this is a question we must all answer Biblically,
> >it cannot be ignored, otherwise false conclusions can be made on the
> >doctrines of salvation. If the Bible says we are all sinners, and no
> >man CAN come to the father, we know that someone's so called good
> >heart or will is not the reason they see their need for Christ more
> >than another person.
>
> It is not a matter of good heart or will, when a person get saved it
> is out of desperation that they do.
>
> I firmly believe that God is sovereign. A proper understanding of
> that is that He has purposes and He will perform them. No man or
> demons can hinder Him. Isa. 14:24  The LORD of hosts hath sworn,
> saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I
> have purposed, so shall it stand:
>
> Election is always aim at God's purposes and not the destiny of
> man.  This is clear where the word is used in Rom.9:11  (For the
> children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,
> that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of
> works, but of him that calleth;)   His purpose in Gen 3:15 was to
> bring a Seed into the world that would eventually destroy the serpent
> (Devil) He choose Jacob and not Esau to build the nation that would
> be the  people that would bring that Seed into the world. He said
> before they were born to the mother, "Two nations and in thy womb.."
> Gen. 25:23 He never had two boys in view here, chosen to go to heaven or hell.
>
> Christ is the elect of God Isa. 42:1  All God's purposes are in Him.
> Eph. 3:11,  According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in
> Christ Jesus our Lord: All the saved are elect in Christ and God's
> purposes will be accomplished in them. All believers have all been
> predetermined  to be conformed to the likeness of His beloved Son. Rom. 8:29
>
> The will of man is free.  He can repent or he cannot. He can believe
> or he cannot.
>
> The Lord bless,
>
> Harold
>
>
> >Mohan
> >
> >--- In ReformedWatchmen@yahoogroups.com, Harold Smith <inchrist@> wrote:
> > >
> > > At 02:13 PM 27/08/2009, you wrote:
> > > >Harold,
> > > Dear Brother Mohan,
> > > Thank you for your mail.
> > >
> > >
> > > >Thanks for the reply. I am happy to discuss further the scriptures
> > > >brought up, however, I wanted to camp in one area for right now and
> > > >maybe go to some other issues later. I still have not received a
> > > >satisfactory Biblical answer to the reason why someone receives
> > > >Christ while the other person does not.
> > >
> > > You and others might use this because of your belief, but this only
> > > further shows you that it is not God who calls  the "whosoevers," but
> > > the whosoevers who does not respond and comes to take the water of
> > > life freely, Rev 22:17
> > >
> > > >You indicated that one person sees the need for Christ more than
> > > >another person, and a while back, you could not answer why that is
> > > >the case that someone sees the need more than another person.
> > >
> > > The needs of all are produced by the preaching of the gospel and
> > > working of the Holy Spirit. This is why the disciples were told to
> > > preach the gospel to every creature Mark 16:15
> > >
> > > >I still am not satisfied at that type of response. Am I not teaching
> > > >the Bible when I say the reason is that no one wants Christ per
> > > >Ephesians 2, Romans 3, the Isaiah scripture that our good works are
> > > >filthy rags,
> > >
> > > I agree with you on this 100%
> > >
> > > >that God is the author and finisher of our faith,
> > >
> > > This phrase comes from Heb. 12:2, and if you read it carefully in the
> > > context it is not Christ as our Saviour, but Christ as our example of
> > > running the race that is in view.. He is the only one who began and
> > > finished perfectly the race set before Him.  If you will notice the
> > > finisher of 'our' faith. the 'our' is in italics and is not in the
> > > original. He is the finisher of faith.
> > >
> > > >and that our heart is deceitful? Am I not Biblical when I say we are
> > > >born sinners therefore all of us deserve hell including
> > >
> > > I would agree 100% with you on this.
> > >
> > > >  a child? Anyone who knows me knows that I want to look at
> > > > scripture only, not what any confession, pastor, or denomination
> > > > says, therefore, I am looking forward to your Biblical answer to
> > > > the question as to why one person sees the need for Christ more
> > > > than another person.
> > >
> > > A preacher of years ago had a son that heard the gospel over and over
> > > all his life and did not respond.  At a Conference a few years ago we
> > > got an announcement that that son at 82 years old (I think) had just
> > > got saved, Why was it he was not saved as a boy.? Who knows??
> > >
> > > I remember another man that sat in a gospel meeting nearly every
> > > Sunday night for 42 years, I visited him in the hospital a month or
> > > so before he died and still unsaved. As far as I know he died that
way.Why?
> > >
> > > I worked and drank with a friend for some years before I was saved,
> > > fifty-seven years ago this month.  He died a while ago in his sins.
> > > Why I was saved and he wasn't is the difference in our reaction to
> > > the gospel. Why did I responded and he did not.? Who knows?
> > >
> > > It is rather risky to build any sound doctrine on "why?"
> > >
> > > Brother, I appreciate your zeal in witnessing and pray the Lord to
> > > bless the good news you are spreading. I am not in agreement with how
> > > you expect them to get the benefits of it. You are offering them some
> > > thing that they might not be able to have. The word "whosoever" is
> > > everywhere in the N.T. associated with salvation.
> > >
> > > The Lord Bless you,
> > > Harold
> > >
> > >
> > > >Thanks,
> > > >Mohan
> > > >
> > > >--- In ReformedWatchmen@yahoogroups.com, Harold Smith <

we have to look elsewhere in the Bible for that. This leads to the list of scenarios you brought up, and I think I was going to bring up something similar by asking how is it that someone becomes saved maybe years after hearing the Gospel. You would agree with a verse like Titus 3:5 that is not by any righteous act we have done, but by God's mercy alone that we are saved.

God has his own timetable as to when he saves someone,

since the work of salvation is all of God.

Just as God determined when we are born physically,

he determines the same thing as to when we are born spiritually, John 3:3-7. If the Bible gives the answer as to why someone responds and another one does not, it is not at all risky to ask others that question.

And I believe that this is a question we must all answer Biblically, it cannot be ignored, otherwise false conclusions can be made on the doctrines of salvation. If the Bible says we are all sinners, and no man CAN come to the father, we know that someone's so called good heart or will is not the reason they see their need for Christ more than another person.

Mohan

--- In ReformedWatchmen@yahoogroups.com, Harold Smith <inchrist@...> wrote:
>
> At 02:13 PM 27/08/2009, you wrote:
> >Harold,
> Dear Brother Mohan,
> Thank you for your mail.
>
>
> >Thanks for the reply. I am happy to discuss further the scriptures
> >brought up, however, I wanted to camp in one area for right now and
> >maybe go to some other issues later. I still have not received a
> >satisfactory Biblical answer to the reason why someone receives
> >Christ while the other person does not.
>
> You and others might use this because of your belief, but this only
> further shows you that it is not God who calls  the "whosoevers," but
> the whosoevers who does not respond and comes to take the water of
> life freely, Rev 22:17
>
> >You indicated that one person sees the need for Christ more than
> >another person, and a while back, you could not answer why that is
> >the case that someone sees the need more than another person.
>
> The needs of all are produced by the preaching of the gospel and
> working of the Holy Spirit. This is why the disciples were told to
> preach the gospel to every creature Mark 16:15
>
> >I still am not satisfied at that type of response. Am I not teaching
> >the Bible when I say the reason is that no one wants Christ per
> >Ephesians 2, Romans 3, the Isaiah scripture that our good works are
> >filthy rags,
>
> I agree with you on this 100%
>
> >that God is the author and finisher of our faith,
>
> This phrase comes from Heb. 12:2, and if you read it carefully in the
> context it is not Christ as our Saviour, but Christ as our example of
> running the race that is in view.. He is the only one who began and
> finished perfectly the race set before Him.  If you will notice the
> finisher of 'our' faith. the 'our' is in italics and is not in the
> original. He is the finisher of faith.
>
> >and that our heart is deceitful? Am I not Biblical when I say we are
> >born sinners therefore all of us deserve hell including
>
> I would agree 100% with you on this.
>
> >  a child? Anyone who knows me knows that I want to look at
> > scripture only, not what any confession, pastor, or denomination
> > says, therefore, I am looking forward to your Biblical answer to
> > the question as to why one person sees the need for Christ more
> > than another person.
>
> A preacher of years ago had a son that heard the gospel over and over
> all his life and did not respond.  At a Conference a few years ago we
> got an announcement that that son at 82 years old (I think) had just
> got saved, Why was it he was not saved as a boy.? Who knows??
>
> I remember another man that sat in a gospel meeting nearly every
> Sunday night for 42 years, I visited him in the hospital a month or
> so before he died and still unsaved. As far as I know he died that way.Why?
>
> I worked and drank with a friend for some years before I was saved,
> fifty-seven years ago this month.  He died a while ago in his sins.
> Why I was saved and he wasn't is the difference in our reaction to
> the gospel. Why did I responded and he did not.? Who knows?
>
> It is rather risky to build any sound doctrine on "why?"
>
> Brother, I appreciate your zeal in witnessing and pray the Lord to
> bless the good news you are spreading. I am not in agreement with how
> you expect them to get the benefits of it. You are offering them some
> thing that they might not be able to have. The word "whosoever" is
> everywhere in the N.T. associated with salvation.
>
> The Lord Bless you,
> Harold
>
>
> >Thanks,
> >Mohan
> >
> >--- In ReformedWatchmen@yahoogroups.com, Harold Smith <inchrist@> wrote:
> > >
> > > At 07:21 PM 26/08/2009, you wrote:
> > > >Taken From:
> > > > http://www.reformedspokane.org
> > > >
> > > >Who Chooses?
> > > >(according to the Scriptures)
> > > >
> > > >We hear a lot
> > > >
> > > >about choosing Christ,
> > > >about receiving Him,
> > > >about making a decision to believe.
> > > >
> > > >What does the Bible, the Word of God, actually say?
> > >
> > > Dear Mohan,
> > > You have selected some choice questions to fit scriptures to to make
> > > your points. Some of them you did not have to bend too much.
> > >
> > > You are not preaching the Word of God, but abusing it to answer your
> > > own choice questions.
> > > The only person that was elected of God before the foundation of the
> > > world was God's Son.  Isa. 42:1  Every person in Christ is elect,
> > > because He is the Elect of God. You do not become a child of God by
> > > election, but by faith in Christ Jesus, Gal 3:26,   For ye are all
> > > the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
> > >
> > >
> > > >1. Question: Who chooses?
> > > >
> > > >Jesus told the disciples that He chose them, "Ye have not chosen me,
> > > >but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring
> > > >forth fruit, . . ." John 15:16.
> > >
> > > Did you forget that one of the was lost John 17:12? While I was with
> > > them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me
> > > I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that
> > > the scripture might be fulfilled.  You would do a lot of bending
> > on this one
> > >
> > > You can teach anything and find a verse here and there to support it.
> > >
> > > Let God be true and every man a liar.
> > >
> > > Thank God for the simplicity there is in being saved.  John 3;16-18
> > > For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
> > > whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
> > > For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but
> > > that the world through him might be saved.
> > > He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not
> > > is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the
> > > only begotten Son of God.
> > > This would give you problems
> > >
> > > Saved by grace alone through faith alone, Eph 2:8
> > > Harold
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >God chose from the foundation of the world "According as he hath
> > > >chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should
> > > >be holy and without blame before him in love:" Ephesians 1:4.
> > > >
> > > >We are chosen of God to salvation and to believe, "God hath from the
> > > >beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the
> > > >Spirit and belief of the truth: . . ." II Thessalonians 2:13.
> > > >
> > > >We are chosen and caused to come near to God to dwell in his house,
> > > >"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto
> > > >thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with
> > > >the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple." Psalm 65:4
> > > >
> > > >Answer: Evidently God does the choosing unto faith and salvation.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >2. Question: Why did God choose?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"According as he hath chosen us in him... Having predestinated us
> > > >unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according
> > > >to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his
> > > >grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." Ephesians 1:4-6
> > > >
> > > >Answer: God chooses according to His counsel of predestination,
> > > >according to His own good pleasure and for His own glory.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >3. Question: In what manner did God choose?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the
> > > >wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound
> > > >the things which are mighty; and base things of the world, and
> > > >things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which
> > > >are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should
> > > >glory in his presence." I Corinthians 1:27-29
> > > >
> > > >Answer: God has chosen in a manner that makes it clear that those
> > > >chosen did not choose of themselves and were not worthy and in a
> > > >manner which sets the pride of men on its head, and to this end:
> > > >"That no flesh should glory in his presence."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >4. Question: But why is the gospel is to be preached unto to all men
> > > >since God only chooses some?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >This is also explained in Scripture, "Wherefore also it is contained
> > > >in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect,
> > > >precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto
> > > >you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be
> > > >disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is
> > > >made the head of the corner, and a stone of stumbling, and a rock of
> > > >offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient:
> > > >whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation,
> > > >a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye
> > > >should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of
> > > >darkness into his marvellous light:" I Peter 2:6-9
> > > >
> > > >Answer: The preaching of the gospel comes to all. It comes as a
> > > >stone set in the way. To believers it is the precious word of life,
> > > >and they are built upon it as living stones in Christ (I Peter 2:5)
> > > >For others it is a stone of stumbling, a rock of offense. Moreover,
> > > >those who believe do so because they are "a chosen generation,"
> > > >effectually brought by God to faith: "who hath called you out of
> > > >darkness into his marvelous light." Others do not believe but
> > > >stumble, to which stumbling, "also they were appointed." God sends
> > > >the gospel to save His chosen, while also hardening in sin and
> > > >unbelief others, appointed to stumble at the word and be judged in
> > > >their unbelief.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >5. Question: But are we not commanded to believe?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >The Word describes the preaching among the Gentiles: "and as many as
> > > >were ordained to eternal life believed," Acts 13:48
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >The Word describes Lydia's coming to faith thus: "whose heart the
> > > >Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of
> > > >Paul," Acts 16:14.
> > > >
> > > >Answer: Believing (the activity of faith) is a work of grace,
> > > >grounded in God's election and imparted by the Holy Spirit Who works
> > > >it. It does not proceed from man nor is it something man can do of
> > > >himself. We are commanded to believe, but God works in His elect
> > > >what He commands. Faith does not have its source in man.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >6. Question: But does not man have free will?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Jesus teaches that coming to Him by faith is a matter of God's
> > > >election, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him
> > > >that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out," John 6:37.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Jesus denies the ability of man to come unto him: "No man can come
> > > >to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will
> > > >raise him up at the last day." John 6:44
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Jesus says that coming to him by faith is a gift given by God, "And
> > > >he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me,
> > > >except it were given unto him of my Father," John 6:65.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >The Word of God also says of man in himself, "But the natural man
> > > >receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are
> > > >foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are
> > > >spiritually discerned," I Corinthians 2:14.
> > > >
> > > >Answer: Jesus Himself denies that man has free will, so as to be
> > > >able to choose the good or believe. The word of God teaches that man
> > > >is fallen into sin and is become, through the fall, by nature, an
> > > >unbeliever who is not able to understand the gospel or come to
> > > >Christ or believe, except God give him the gift of faith and work
> > > >its activity in him.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >7. Question: But does not man make real choices?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Jesus, speaking of sinful man and false prophets, specifically says,
> > > >"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns,
> > > >or figs of thistles,? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good
> > > >fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree
> > > >cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring
> > > >forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is
> > > >hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye
> > > >shall know them." Matthew 7:17-20
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >The Word of God speaking of carnal or fleshly man, man as he is
> > > >fallen in sin, says, "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be
> > > >spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is
> > > >enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither
> > > >indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please
> > > >God," Romans 8:6-9.
> > > >
> > > >Answer: Man makes real choices, in harmony with his nature which is
> > > >fallen in sin and unbelief. Since man is wicked, he makes wicked
> > > >choices and is unable and unwilling to obey God, or to repent and
> > > >believe. Man is not neutral, standing between good and evil, but
> > > >evil. Therefore he is described spiritually and morally as being
> > > >"dead in trespasses and sins," and under the government of sin
> > > >(Ephesians 2:1-3). What a corrupt tree is unable to do is bring
> > > >forth the good fruit of faith. Man must be saved by the grace of God
> > > >and become by the Spirit a spiritual man, or to use Jesus' figure, a
> > > >good tree. Evil choices therefore proceed from an evil nature and
> > > >good spiritual choices proceed from a renewed nature. Thus Moses did
> > > >not choose to believe, but believing, chose by faith to suffer for
> > > >Christ's sake, "By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused
> > > >to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to
> > > >suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the
> > > >pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ
> > > >greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto
> > > >the recompence of the reward." Hebrews 11:24.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >8. How does God work this spiritual renewal?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
> > > >Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
> > > >Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can
> > > >he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus
> > > >answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of
> > > >water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
> > > >That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of
> > > >the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be
> > > >born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the
> > > >sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it
> > > >goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." John 3:3-8.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; .
> > > >. . Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with
> > > >Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and
> > > >made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus,"
> > Ephesians 2:1,5,6.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to
> > > >his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing
> > > >of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus
> > > >Christ our Saviour," Titus 3:5,6.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which
> > > >according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively
> > > >hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead," I Peter 1:3.
> > > >
> > > >Answer: We are born again or regenerated. This is a spiritual
> > > >renewal of the nature, a resurrection of the soul from death to
> > > >life, comparable to the resurrection of the body from death. This
> > > >work of God is the work of Christ by the Spirit; without it we
> > > >cannot see or enter the kingdom. We are born again unto faith, as a
> > > >living hope. That new spiritual life imparts spiritual ability to
> > > >know and see spiritual things and to come and enter the kingdom
> > > >through faith. Without it, that which is born of the flesh is flesh
> > > >and dead in sin. It is a wondrous work of God in the depths of the
> > > >heart, a washing and cleansing of the mind and heart and will, by
> > > >which one born of the Spirit is given to spiritually repent and
> > > >believe. Without this work of grace the preaching of the gospel
> > > >leaves man dead. This grace of God is also one that God is able to
> > > >work in the heart of the smallest child, "But thou art he that took
> > > >me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my
> > > >mother' breasts. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God
> > > >from my mother's belly." Psalm 22:9,10. This new life God calls unto
> > > >the activity of faith by the gospel.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >9. Question: How does God call this new life unto faith?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and
> > > >now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and
> > > >they that hear shall live." John 5:25
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Jesus said, ". . . I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I
> > > >do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not,
> > > >because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my
> > > >voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them
> > > >eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man
> > > >pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater
> > > >than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
> > > >John 10:25-29.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"How shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach,
> > > >except they be sent? . . . So then faith cometh by hearing, and
> > > >hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:14,17.
> > > >
> > > >Answer: God works faith by calling those whom He quickens unto life
> > > >by the word of Christ, so that through the preaching they
> > > >spiritually hear Christ the Shepherd and come to him as His sheep by
> > > >faith. Faith therefore is kindled in the hearts of the regenerated
> > > >by the Spirit and Word. This work of grace, Christ works in His
> > > >sheep given to Him. This is not accomplished merely by the sound of
> > > >the preaching, but by a work of grace. Those who do not come, abide
> > > >in unbelief because they are not Christ's elect sheep. The seed of
> > > >the gospel grows when it is planted in regenerated or prepared soil,
> > > >just as it does not grow on the path, in the weeds, or on stony
> > > >ground, as Jesus explains in the Parable of the Sower (Matthew 13).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >10. Question: What is the nature of this spiritual hearing or seeing?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord
> > > >of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the
> > > >wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so,
> > > >Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered
> > > >unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father;
> > > >neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to
> > > >whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Matthew 11:25-27.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Jesus' testimony concerning Peter's faith and confession, "Thou art
> > > >the Christ, the Son of the living God," was this, "Blessed art thou,
> > > >Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee,
> > > >but my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 16:17
> > > >
> > > >Answer: It is a work of grace by which we are given to see spiritual
> > > >things spiritually, know spiritual things, understand, and believe.
> > > >Jesus speaks of it as a work of God which is revelation, a lifting
> > > >of the veil of darkness, which gives light.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Hence we also read," But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and
> > > >your ears, for they hear." Matthew 13:16.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >We read, "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an
> > > >holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the
> > > >praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his
> > > >marvellous light:," I Peter 2:9
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >We read of God, "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
> > > >and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son," Colossians 1:13
> > > >
> > > >Hence the answer is also that it is God's work of grace, Who takes
> > > >us from darkness to light, quickens to life and works faith. "For by
> > > >grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is
> > > >the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are
> > > >his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God
> > > >hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >11. Question: But does not the Bible also speak of our accepting Christ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >In the context of God's "choosing us" and predestinating us
> > > >(Ephesians 1:4, 5), the Bible says, "To the praise of the glory of
> > > >his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." Ephesians 1:6
> > > >
> > > >Answer: the Bible speaks of our being accepted of God in Christ, and
> > > >not our accepting Him. That acceptance is grounded in Jesus' atoning
> > > >death: "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the
> > > >forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"
> > > >Ephesians 1:7. This is the legal basis of our being received of God
> > > >in mercy and forgiven. It is also the legal basis of God's work of
> > > >grace by which He imparts faith, salvation to us through faith, and
> > > >righteousness by means of faith and justification.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >12. Question: Why do you speak of the legal basis of faith?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"For we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all
> > > >under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not
> > one:" Romans 1:9.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As
> > > >the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my
> > > >life for the sheep." John 10:14,15
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to
> > > >believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;" Philippians 1:29
> > > >
> > > >Answer: We are not only dead in sin and unable to come to God, but
> > > >we are also guilty before God and have no right to come and be
> > > >accepted. Jesus died for His sheep given Him of the Father, His
> > > >elect. In His death He bought His sheep. By His righteousness and
> > > >payment for sin as a ransom, He also bought faith, which is given us
> > > >"on behalf of" Christ. To that blessing of faith therefore belongs
> > > >also the privilege of suffering for Christ's sake. Except Christ
> > > >died for us, we have no right to any spiritual life, for ". . . the
> > > >wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23) Faith, as a work of grace,
> > > >rests upon the foundation of Jesus' atonement and belongs to the
> > > >gift of eternal life and the ransom He gave.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Hence it is written, "For even the Son of man came not to be
> > > >ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for
> > > >many," Mark 10:45.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Hence also we were redeemed not only from sin in general but from
> > > >the vanity of unbelief and "by him do believe. " "Forasmuch as ye
> > > >know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver
> > > >and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from
> > > >your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb
> > > >without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before
> > > >the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times
> > > >for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the
> > > >dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God."
> > > >I Peter 1:18-21.
> > > >
> > > >13. Question: But are we not said to "receive" Christ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the
> > > >sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born,
> > > >not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,
> > > >but of God.," John 1:12,13
> > > >
> > > >Answer: Yes we are said to receive Christ as a gift given of God,
> > > >which gift is also to be understood as being received of God's grace
> > > >through a faith which is God's work in us. By that gift we are given
> > > >of the Spirit, "power to become sons of God."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >That same gift is described in Romans 8:15-17: "Ye have received the
> > > >Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself
> > > >beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
> > > >And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >The same passage in John cited above, however, explains this work of
> > > >the Spirit in us. We are given to become sons of God because we ". .
> > > >. were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the
> > > >will of man, but of God." We were born (past tense) and were given
> > > >power to become sons of God, which we are, but not yet in
> > > >perfection. Being born again was the cause. It was not man's will of
> > > >the flesh (free will) nor our natural birth (will of a male father).
> > > >We were born "of God," received Christ by faith, embraced Him, and
> > > >were given the blessing of adoption. It is all the Spirit's work as
> > > >the Spirit of adoption, unto which adoption we were also
> > > >predestinated (Ephesians 1:5).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >What the text is not talking about is an act of man dependent upon
> > > >the will of the flesh of a dead sinner by which man decides to believe.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >14. What is the summary of the matter?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Salvation is of God. He ordained it, He accomplished it in Christ
> > > >and He applies it by the Spirit. He that is saved is "of God," that
> > > >is, he is God's work of grace from beginning to end. He that does
> > > >not believe is a sinner, who is not "of God."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Thus Jesus said to the unbelieving, "He that is of God heareth God's
> > > >words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God," John 8:47.
> > > >
> > > >What then is the spiritual response of one who is given to know
> > > >God's grace? It is a doxology of praise and thanksgiving.
> > > >
> > > >Thus we read, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus
> > > >Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly
> > > >places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the
> > > >foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame
> > > >before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of
> > > >children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure
> > > >of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he
> > > >hath made us accepted in the beloved." Ephesians 1:3-6.
> > > >
> > > >Is this confession yours?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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06:26:00

Harold,

Yes, I agree with Revelation 22:17 as it is in the Word. This is a great verse
of promise that whosever is athirst may come, regardless of age, tribe, nation
or language. There is great hope for sinners. God is not a respector of persons.
However, this verse does not detail how someone becomes thirsty, we have to look
elsewhere in the Bible for that. This leads to the list of scenarios you brought
up, and I think I was going to bring up something similar by asking how is it
that someone becomes saved maybe years after hearing the Gospel. You would agree
with a verse like Titus 3:5 that is not by any righteous act we have done, but
by God's mercy alone that we are saved. God has his own timetable as to when he
saves someone, since the work of salvation is all of God. Just as God determined
when we are born physically, he determines the same thing as to when we are born
spiritually, John 3:3-7. If the Bible gives the answer as to why someone
responds and another one does not, it is not at all risky to ask others that
question. And I believe that this is a question we must all answer Biblically,
it cannot be ignored, otherwise false conclusions can be made on the doctrines
of salvation. If the Bible says we are all sinners, and no man CAN come to the
father, we know that someone's so called good heart or will is not the reason
they see their need for Christ more than another person.

Mohan

--- In ReformedWatchmen@yahoogroups.com, Harold Smith <inchrist@...> wrote:
>
> At 02:13 PM 27/08/2009, you wrote:
> >Harold,
> Dear Brother Mohan,
> Thank you for your mail.
>
>
> >Thanks for the reply. I am happy to discuss further the scriptures
> >brought up, however, I wanted to camp in one area for right now and
> >maybe go to some other issues later. I still have not received a
> >satisfactory Biblical answer to the reason why someone receives
> >Christ while the other person does not.
>
> You and others might use this because of your belief, but this only
> further shows you that it is not God who calls  the "whosoevers," but
> the whosoevers who does not respond and comes to take the water of
> life freely, Rev 22:17
>
> >You indicated that one person sees the need for Christ more than
> >another person, and a while back, you could not answer why that is
> >the case that someone sees the need more than another person.
>
> The needs of all are produced by the preaching of the gospel and
> working of the Holy Spirit. This is why the disciples were told to
> preach the gospel to every creature Mark 16:15
>
> >I still am not satisfied at that type of response. Am I not teaching
> >the Bible when I say the reason is that no one wants Christ per
> >Ephesians 2, Romans 3, the Isaiah scripture that our good works are
> >filthy rags,
>
> I agree with you on this 100%
>
> >that God is the author and finisher of our faith,
>
> This phrase comes from Heb. 12:2, and if you read it carefully in the
> context it is not Christ as our Saviour, but Christ as our example of
> running the race that is in view.. He is the only one who began and
> finished perfectly the race set before Him.  If you will notice the
> finisher of 'our' faith. the 'our' is in italics and is not in the
> original. He is the finisher of faith.
>
> >and that our heart is deceitful? Am I not Biblical when I say we are
> >born sinners therefore all of us deserve hell including
>
> I would agree 100% with you on this.
>
> >  a child? Anyone who knows me knows that I want to look at
> > scripture only, not what any confession, pastor, or denomination
> > says, therefore, I am looking forward to your Biblical answer to
> > the question as to why one person sees the need for Christ more
> > than another person.
>
> A preacher of years ago had a son that heard the gospel over and over
> all his life and did not respond.  At a Conference a few years ago we
> got an announcement that that son at 82 years old (I think) had just
> got saved, Why was it he was not saved as a boy.? Who knows??
>
> I remember another man that sat in a gospel meeting nearly every
> Sunday night for 42 years, I visited him in the hospital a month or
> so before he died and still unsaved. As far as I know he died that way.Why?
>
> I worked and drank with a friend for some years before I was saved,
> fifty-seven years ago this month.  He died a while ago in his sins.
> Why I was saved and he wasn't is the difference in our reaction to
> the gospel. Why did I responded and he did not.? Who knows?
>
> It is rather risky to build any sound doctrine on "why?"
>
> Brother, I appreciate your zeal in witnessing and pray the Lord to
> bless the good news you are spreading. I am not in agreement with how
> you expect them to get the benefits of it. You are offering them some
> thing that they might not be able to have. The word "whosoever" is
> everywhere in the N.T. associated with salvation.
>
> The Lord Bless you,
> Harold
>
>
> >Thanks,
> >Mohan
> >
> >--- In ReformedWatchmen@yahoogroups.com, Harold Smith <inchrist@> wrote:
> > >
> > > At 07:21 PM 26/08/2009, you wrote:
> > > >Taken From:
> > > >http://www.reformedspokane.org
> > > >
> > > >Who Chooses?
> > > >(according to the Scriptures)
> > > >
> > > >We hear a lot
> > > >
> > > >about choosing Christ,
> > > >about receiving Him,
> > > >about making a decision to believe.
> > > >
> > > >What does the Bible, the Word of God, actually say?
> > >
> > > Dear Mohan,
> > > You have selected some choice questions to fit scriptures to to make
> > > your points. Some of them you did not have to bend too much.
> > >
> > > You are not preaching the Word of God, but abusing it to answer your
> > > own choice questions.
> > > The only person that was elected of God before the foundation of the
> > > world was God's Son.  Isa. 42:1  Every person in Christ is elect,
> > > because He is the Elect of God. You do not become a child of God by
> > > election, but by faith in Christ Jesus, Gal 3:26,   For ye are all
> > > the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
> > >
> > >
> > > >1. Question: Who chooses?
> > > >
> > > >Jesus told the disciples that He chose them, "Ye have not chosen me,
> > > >but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring
> > > >forth fruit, . . ." John 15:16.
> > >
> > > Did you forget that one of the was lost John 17:12? While I was with
> > > them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me
> > > I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that
> > > the scripture might be fulfilled.  You would do a lot of bending
> > on this one
> > >
> > > You can teach anything and find a verse here and there to support it.
> > >
> > > Let God be true and every man a liar.
> > >
> > > Thank God for the simplicity there is in being saved.  John 3;16-18
> > > For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
> > > whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
> > > For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but
> > > that the world through him might be saved.
> > > He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not
> > > is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the
> > > only begotten Son of God.
> > > This would give you problems
> > >
> > > Saved by grace alone through faith alone, Eph 2:8
> > > Harold
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >God chose from the foundation of the world "According as he hath
> > > >chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should
> > > >be holy and without blame before him in love:" Ephesians 1:4.
> > > >
> > > >We are chosen of God to salvation and to believe, "God hath from the
> > > >beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the
> > > >Spirit and belief of the truth: . . ." II Thessalonians 2:13.
> > > >
> > > >We are chosen and caused to come near to God to dwell in his house,
> > > >"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto
> > > >thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with
> > > >the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple." Psalm 65:4
> > > >
> > > >Answer: Evidently God does the choosing unto faith and salvation.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >2. Question: Why did God choose?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"According as he hath chosen us in him... Having predestinated us
> > > >unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according
> > > >to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his
> > > >grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." Ephesians 1:4-6
> > > >
> > > >Answer: God chooses according to His counsel of predestination,
> > > >according to His own good pleasure and for His own glory.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >3. Question: In what manner did God choose?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the
> > > >wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound
> > > >the things which are mighty; and base things of the world, and
> > > >things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which
> > > >are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should
> > > >glory in his presence." I Corinthians 1:27-29
> > > >
> > > >Answer: God has chosen in a manner that makes it clear that those
> > > >chosen did not choose of themselves and were not worthy and in a
> > > >manner which sets the pride of men on its head, and to this end:
> > > >"That no flesh should glory in his presence."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >4. Question: But why is the gospel is to be preached unto to all men
> > > >since God only chooses some?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >This is also explained in Scripture, "Wherefore also it is contained
> > > >in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect,
> > > >precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto
> > > >you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be
> > > >disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is
> > > >made the head of the corner, and a stone of stumbling, and a rock of
> > > >offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient:
> > > >whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation,
> > > >a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye
> > > >should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of
> > > >darkness into his marvellous light:" I Peter 2:6-9
> > > >
> > > >Answer: The preaching of the gospel comes to all. It comes as a
> > > >stone set in the way. To believers it is the precious word of life,
> > > >and they are built upon it as living stones in Christ (I Peter 2:5)
> > > >For others it is a stone of stumbling, a rock of offense. Moreover,
> > > >those who believe do so because they are "a chosen generation,"
> > > >effectually brought by God to faith: "who hath called you out of
> > > >darkness into his marvelous light." Others do not believe but
> > > >stumble, to which stumbling, "also they were appointed." God sends
> > > >the gospel to save His chosen, while also hardening in sin and
> > > >unbelief others, appointed to stumble at the word and be judged in
> > > >their unbelief.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >5. Question: But are we not commanded to believe?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >The Word describes the preaching among the Gentiles: "and as many as
> > > >were ordained to eternal life believed," Acts 13:48
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >The Word describes Lydia's coming to faith thus: "whose heart the
> > > >Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of
> > > >Paul," Acts 16:14.
> > > >
> > > >Answer: Believing (the activity of faith) is a work of grace,
> > > >grounded in God's election and imparted by the Holy Spirit Who works
> > > >it. It does not proceed from man nor is it something man can do of
> > > >himself. We are commanded to believe, but God works in His elect
> > > >what He commands. Faith does not have its source in man.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >6. Question: But does not man have free will?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Jesus teaches that coming to Him by faith is a matter of God's
> > > >election, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him
> > > >that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out," John 6:37.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Jesus denies the ability of man to come unto him: "No man can come
> > > >to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will
> > > >raise him up at the last day." John 6:44
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Jesus says that coming to him by faith is a gift given by God, "And
> > > >he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me,
> > > >except it were given unto him of my Father," John 6:65.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >The Word of God also says of man in himself, "But the natural man
> > > >receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are
> > > >foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are
> > > >spiritually discerned," I Corinthians 2:14.
> > > >
> > > >Answer: Jesus Himself denies that man has free will, so as to be
> > > >able to choose the good or believe. The word of God teaches that man
> > > >is fallen into sin and is become, through the fall, by nature, an
> > > >unbeliever who is not able to understand the gospel or come to
> > > >Christ or believe, except God give him the gift of faith and work
> > > >its activity in him.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >7. Question: But does not man make real choices?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Jesus, speaking of sinful man and false prophets, specifically says,
> > > >"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns,
> > > >or figs of thistles,? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good
> > > >fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree
> > > >cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring
> > > >forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is
> > > >hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye
> > > >shall know them." Matthew 7:17-20
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >The Word of God speaking of carnal or fleshly man, man as he is
> > > >fallen in sin, says, "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be
> > > >spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is
> > > >enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither
> > > >indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please
> > > >God," Romans 8:6-9.
> > > >
> > > >Answer: Man makes real choices, in harmony with his nature which is
> > > >fallen in sin and unbelief. Since man is wicked, he makes wicked
> > > >choices and is unable and unwilling to obey God, or to repent and
> > > >believe. Man is not neutral, standing between good and evil, but
> > > >evil. Therefore he is described spiritually and morally as being
> > > >"dead in trespasses and sins," and under the government of sin
> > > >(Ephesians 2:1-3). What a corrupt tree is unable to do is bring
> > > >forth the good fruit of faith. Man must be saved by the grace of God
> > > >and become by the Spirit a spiritual man, or to use Jesus' figure, a
> > > >good tree. Evil choices therefore proceed from an evil nature and
> > > >good spiritual choices proceed from a renewed nature. Thus Moses did
> > > >not choose to believe, but believing, chose by faith to suffer for
> > > >Christ's sake, "By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused
> > > >to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to
> > > >suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the
> > > >pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ
> > > >greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto
> > > >the recompence of the reward." Hebrews 11:24.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >8. How does God work this spiritual renewal?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
> > > >Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
> > > >Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can
> > > >he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus
> > > >answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of
> > > >water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
> > > >That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of
> > > >the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be
> > > >born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the
> > > >sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it
> > > >goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." John 3:3-8.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; .
> > > >. . Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with
> > > >Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and
> > > >made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus,"
> > Ephesians 2:1,5,6.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to
> > > >his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing
> > > >of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus
> > > >Christ our Saviour," Titus 3:5,6.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which
> > > >according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively
> > > >hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead," I Peter 1:3.
> > > >
> > > >Answer: We are born again or regenerated. This is a spiritual
> > > >renewal of the nature, a resurrection of the soul from death to
> > > >life, comparable to the resurrection of the body from death. This
> > > >work of God is the work of Christ by the Spirit; without it we
> > > >cannot see or enter the kingdom. We are born again unto faith, as a
> > > >living hope. That new spiritual life imparts spiritual ability to
> > > >know and see spiritual things and to come and enter the kingdom
> > > >through faith. Without it, that which is born of the flesh is flesh
> > > >and dead in sin. It is a wondrous work of God in the depths of the
> > > >heart, a washing and cleansing of the mind and heart and will, by
> > > >which one born of the Spirit is given to spiritually repent and
> > > >believe. Without this work of grace the preaching of the gospel
> > > >leaves man dead. This grace of God is also one that God is able to
> > > >work in the heart of the smallest child, "But thou art he that took
> > > >me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my
> > > >mother' breasts. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God
> > > >from my mother's belly." Psalm 22:9,10. This new life God calls unto
> > > >the activity of faith by the gospel.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >9. Question: How does God call this new life unto faith?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and
> > > >now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and
> > > >they that hear shall live." John 5:25
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Jesus said, ". . . I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I
> > > >do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not,
> > > >because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my
> > > >voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them
> > > >eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man
> > > >pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater
> > > >than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
> > > >John 10:25-29.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"How shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach,
> > > >except they be sent? . . . So then faith cometh by hearing, and
> > > >hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:14,17.
> > > >
> > > >Answer: God works faith by calling those whom He quickens unto life
> > > >by the word of Christ, so that through the preaching they
> > > >spiritually hear Christ the Shepherd and come to him as His sheep by
> > > >faith. Faith therefore is kindled in the hearts of the regenerated
> > > >by the Spirit and Word. This work of grace, Christ works in His
> > > >sheep given to Him. This is not accomplished merely by the sound of
> > > >the preaching, but by a work of grace. Those who do not come, abide
> > > >in unbelief because they are not Christ's elect sheep. The seed of
> > > >the gospel grows when it is planted in regenerated or prepared soil,
> > > >just as it does not grow on the path, in the weeds, or on stony
> > > >ground, as Jesus explains in the Parable of the Sower (Matthew 13).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >10. Question: What is the nature of this spiritual hearing or seeing?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord
> > > >of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the
> > > >wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so,
> > > >Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered
> > > >unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father;
> > > >neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to
> > > >whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Matthew 11:25-27.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Jesus' testimony concerning Peter's faith and confession, "Thou art
> > > >the Christ, the Son of the living God," was this, "Blessed art thou,
> > > >Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee,
> > > >but my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 16:17
> > > >
> > > >Answer: It is a work of grace by which we are given to see spiritual
> > > >things spiritually, know spiritual things, understand, and believe.
> > > >Jesus speaks of it as a work of God which is revelation, a lifting
> > > >of the veil of darkness, which gives light.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Hence we also read," But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and
> > > >your ears, for they hear." Matthew 13:16.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >We read, "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an
> > > >holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the
> > > >praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his
> > > >marvellous light:," I Peter 2:9
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >We read of God, "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
> > > >and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son," Colossians 1:13
> > > >
> > > >Hence the answer is also that it is God's work of grace, Who takes
> > > >us from darkness to light, quickens to life and works faith. "For by
> > > >grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is
> > > >the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are
> > > >his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God
> > > >hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >11. Question: But does not the Bible also speak of our accepting Christ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >In the context of God's "choosing us" and predestinating us
> > > >(Ephesians 1:4, 5), the Bible says, "To the praise of the glory of
> > > >his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." Ephesians
1:6
> > > >
> > > >Answer: the Bible speaks of our being accepted of God in Christ, and
> > > >not our accepting Him. That acceptance is grounded in Jesus' atoning
> > > >death: "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the
> > > >forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"
> > > >Ephesians 1:7. This is the legal basis of our being received of God
> > > >in mercy and forgiven. It is also the legal basis of God's work of
> > > >grace by which He imparts faith, salvation to us through faith, and
> > > >righteousness by means of faith and justification.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >12. Question: Why do you speak of the legal basis of faith?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"For we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all
> > > >under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not
> > one:" Romans 1:9.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As
> > > >the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my
> > > >life for the sheep." John 10:14,15
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to
> > > >believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;" Philippians 1:29
> > > >
> > > >Answer: We are not only dead in sin and unable to come to God, but
> > > >we are also guilty before God and have no right to come and be
> > > >accepted. Jesus died for His sheep given Him of the Father, His
> > > >elect. In His death He bought His sheep. By His righteousness and
> > > >payment for sin as a ransom, He also bought faith, which is given us
> > > >"on behalf of" Christ. To that blessing of faith therefore belongs
> > > >also the privilege of suffering for Christ's sake. Except Christ
> > > >died for us, we have no right to any spiritual life, for ". . . the
> > > >wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23) Faith, as a work of grace,
> > > >rests upon the foundation of Jesus' atonement and belongs to the
> > > >gift of eternal life and the ransom He gave.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Hence it is written, "For even the Son of man came not to be
> > > >ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for
> > > >many," Mark 10:45.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Hence also we were redeemed not only from sin in general but from
> > > >the vanity of unbelief and "by him do believe. " "Forasmuch as ye
> > > >know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver
> > > >and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from
> > > >your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb
> > > >without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before
> > > >the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times
> > > >for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the
> > > >dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God."
> > > >I Peter 1:18-21.
> > > >
> > > >13. Question: But are we not said to "receive" Christ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the
> > > >sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born,
> > > >not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,
> > > >but of God.," John 1:12,13
> > > >
> > > >Answer: Yes we are said to receive Christ as a gift given of God,
> > > >which gift is also to be understood as being received of God's grace
> > > >through a faith which is God's work in us. By that gift we are given
> > > >of the Spirit, "power to become sons of God."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >That same gift is described in Romans 8:15-17: "Ye have received the
> > > >Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself
> > > >beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
> > > >And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >The same passage in John cited above, however, explains this work of
> > > >the Spirit in us. We are given to become sons of God because we ". .
> > > >. were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the
> > > >will of man, but of God." We were born (past tense) and were given
> > > >power to become sons of God, which we are, but not yet in
> > > >perfection. Being born again was the cause. It was not man's will of
> > > >the flesh (free will) nor our natural birth (will of a male father).
> > > >We were born "of God," received Christ by faith, embraced Him, and
> > > >were given the blessing of adoption. It is all the Spirit's work as
> > > >the Spirit of adoption, unto which adoption we were also
> > > >predestinated (Ephesians 1:5).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >What the text is not talking about is an act of man dependent upon
> > > >the will of the flesh of a dead sinner by which man decides to believe.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >14. What is the summary of the matter?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Salvation is of God. He ordained it, He accomplished it in Christ
> > > >and He applies it by the Spirit. He that is saved is "of God," that
> > > >is, he is God's work of grace from beginning to end. He that does
> > > >not believe is a sinner, who is not "of God."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Thus Jesus said to the unbelieving, "He that is of God heareth God's
> > > >words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God," John 8:47.
> > > >
> > > >What then is the spiritual response of one who is given to know
> > > >God's grace? It is a doxology of praise and thanksgiving.
> > > >
> > > >Thus we read, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus
> > > >Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly
> > > >places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the
> > > >foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame
> > > >before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of
> > > >children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure
> > > >of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he
> > > >hath made us accepted in the beloved." Ephesians 1:3-6.
> > > >
> > > >Is this confession yours?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > > >
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18:02:00
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Thanks for the reply. I am happy to discuss further the scriptures brought up, however, I wanted to camp in one area for right now and maybe go to some other issues later. I still have not received a satisfactory Biblical answer to the reason why someone receives Christ while the other person does not.

You indicated that one person sees the need for Christ more than another person, and a while back, you could not answer why that is the case that someone sees the need more than another person.

I still am not satisfied at that type of response. Am I not teaching the Bible when I say the reason is that no one wants Christ per Ephesians 2, Romans 3, the Isaiah scripture that our good works are filthy rags,

that God is the author and finisher of our faith,

and that our heart is deceitful? Am I not Biblical when I say we are born sinners therefore all of us deserve hell including

 a child? Anyone who knows me knows that I want to look at scripture only, not what any confession, pastor, or denomination says, therefore, I am looking forward to your Biblical answer to the question as to why one person sees the need for Christ more than another person.

Thanks,
Mohan

--- In ReformedWatchmen@yahoogroups.com, Harold Smith <inchrist@...> wrote:
>
> At 07:21 PM 26/08/2009, you wrote:
> >Taken From:
> > http://www.reformedspokane.org
> >
> >Who Chooses?
> >(according to the Scriptures)
> >
> >We hear a lot
> >
> >about choosing Christ,
> >about receiving Him,
> >about making a decision to believe.
> >
> >What does the Bible, the Word of God, actually say?
>
> Dear Mohan,
> You have selected some choice questions to fit scriptures to to make
> your points. Some of them you did not have to bend too much.
>
> You are not preaching the Word of God, but abusing it to answer your
> own choice questions.
> The only person that was elected of God before the foundation of the
> world was God's Son.  Isa. 42:1  Every person in Christ is elect,
> because He is the Elect of God. You do not become a child of God by
> election, but by faith in Christ Jesus, Gal 3:26,   For ye are all
> the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
>
>
> >1. Question: Who chooses?
> >
> >Jesus told the disciples that He chose them, "Ye have not chosen me,
> >but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring
> >forth fruit, . . ." John 15:16.
>
> Did you forget that one of the was lost John 17:12? While I was with
> them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me
> I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that
> the scripture might be fulfilled.  You would do a lot of bending on this one
>
> You can teach anything and find a verse here and there to support it.
>
> Let God be true and every man a liar.
>
> Thank God for the simplicity there is in being saved.  John 3;16-18
> For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
> whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
> For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but
> that the world through him might be saved.
> He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not
> is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the
> only begotten Son of God.
> This would give you problems
>
> Saved by grace alone through faith alone, Eph 2:8
> Harold
>
>
>
>
> >God chose from the foundation of the world "According as he hath
> >chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should
> >be holy and without blame before him in love:" Ephesians 1:4.
> >
> >We are chosen of God to salvation and to believe, "God hath from the
> >beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the
> >Spirit and belief of the truth: . . ." II Thessalonians 2:13.
> >
> >We are chosen and caused to come near to God to dwell in his house,
> >"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto
> >thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with
> >the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple." Psalm 65:4
> >
> >Answer: Evidently God does the choosing unto faith and salvation.
> >
> >
> >2. Question: Why did God choose?
> >
> >
> >"According as he hath chosen us in him... Having predestinated us
> >unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according
> >to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his
> >grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." Ephesians 1:4-6
> >
> >Answer: God chooses according to His counsel of predestination,
> >according to His own good pleasure and for His own glory.
> >
> >
> >3. Question: In what manner did God choose?
> >
> >
> >"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the
> >wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound
> >the things which are mighty; and base things of the world, and
> >things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which
> >are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should
> >glory in his presence." I Corinthians 1:27-29
> >
> >Answer: God has chosen in a manner that makes it clear that those
> >chosen did not choose of themselves and were not worthy and in a
> >manner which sets the pride of men on its head, and to this end:
> >"That no flesh should glory in his presence."
> >
> >
> >4. Question: But why is the gospel is to be preached unto to all men
> >since God only chooses some?
> >
> >
> >This is also explained in Scripture, "Wherefore also it is contained
> >in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect,
> >precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto
> >you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be
> >disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is
> >made the head of the corner, and a stone of stumbling, and a rock of
> >offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient:
> >whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation,
> >a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye
> >should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of
> >darkness into his marvellous light:" I Peter 2:6-9
> >
> >Answer: The preaching of the gospel comes to all. It comes as a
> >stone set in the way. To believers it is the precious word of life,
> >and they are built upon it as living stones in Christ (I Peter 2:5)
> >For others it is a stone of stumbling, a rock of offense. Moreover,
> >those who believe do so because they are "a chosen generation,"
> >effectually brought by God to faith: "who hath called you out of
> >darkness into his marvelous light." Others do not believe but
> >stumble, to which stumbling, "also they were appointed." God sends
> >the gospel to save His chosen, while also hardening in sin and
> >unbelief others, appointed to stumble at the word and be judged in
> >their unbelief.
> >
> >
> >5. Question: But are we not commanded to believe?
> >
> >
> >The Word describes the preaching among the Gentiles: "and as many as
> >were ordained to eternal life believed," Acts 13:48
> >
> >
> >The Word describes Lydia's coming to faith thus: "whose heart the
> >Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of
> >Paul," Acts 16:14.
> >
> >Answer: Believing (the activity of faith) is a work of grace,
> >grounded in God's election and imparted by the Holy Spirit Who works
> >it. It does not proceed from man nor is it something man can do of
> >himself. We are commanded to believe, but God works in His elect
> >what He commands. Faith does not have its source in man.
> >
> >
> >6. Question: But does not man have free will?
> >
> >
> >Jesus teaches that coming to Him by faith is a matter of God's
> >election, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him
> >that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out," John 6:37.
> >
> >
> >Jesus denies the ability of man to come unto him: "No man can come
> >to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will
> >raise him up at the last day." John 6:44
> >
> >
> >Jesus says that coming to him by faith is a gift given by God, "And
> >he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me,
> >except it were given unto him of my Father," John 6:65.
> >
> >
> >The Word of God also says of man in himself, "But the natural man
> >receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are
> >foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are
> >spiritually discerned," I Corinthians 2:14.
> >
> >Answer: Jesus Himself denies that man has free will, so as to be
> >able to choose the good or believe. The word of God teaches that man
> >is fallen into sin and is become, through the fall, by nature, an
> >unbeliever who is not able to understand the gospel or come to
> >Christ or believe, except God give him the gift of faith and work
> >its activity in him.
> >
> >
> >7. Question: But does not man make real choices?
> >
> >
> >Jesus, speaking of sinful man and false prophets, specifically says,
> >"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns,
> >or figs of thistles,? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good
> >fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree
> >cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring
> >forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is
> >hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye
> >shall know them." Matthew 7:17-20
> >
> >
> >The Word of God speaking of carnal or fleshly man, man as he is
> >fallen in sin, says, "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be
> >spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is
> >enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither
> >indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please
> >God," Romans 8:6-9.
> >
> >Answer: Man makes real choices, in harmony with his nature which is
> >fallen in sin and unbelief. Since man is wicked, he makes wicked
> >choices and is unable and unwilling to obey God, or to repent and
> >believe. Man is not neutral, standing between good and evil, but
> >evil. Therefore he is described spiritually and morally as being
> >"dead in trespasses and sins," and under the government of sin
> >(Ephesians 2:1-3). What a corrupt tree is unable to do is bring
> >forth the good fruit of faith. Man must be saved by the grace of God
> >and become by the Spirit a spiritual man, or to use Jesus' figure, a
> >good tree. Evil choices therefore proceed from an evil nature and
> >good spiritual choices proceed from a renewed nature. Thus Moses did
> >not choose to believe, but believing, chose by faith to suffer for
> >Christ's sake, "By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused
> >to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to
> >suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the
> >pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ
> >greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto
> >the recompence of the reward." Hebrews 11:24.
> >
> >
> >8. How does God work this spiritual renewal?
> >
> >
> >"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
> >Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
> >Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can
> >he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus
> >answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of
> >water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
> >That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of
> >the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be
> >born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the
> >sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it
> >goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." John 3:3-8.
> >
> >
> >"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; .
> >. . Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with
> >Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and
> >made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus," Ephesians 2:1,5,6.
> >
> >
> >"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to
> >his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing
> >of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus
> >Christ our Saviour," Titus 3:5,6.
> >
> >
> >"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which
> >according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively
> >hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead," I Peter 1:3.
> >
> >Answer: We are born again or regenerated. This is a spiritual
> >renewal of the nature, a resurrection of the soul from death to
> >life, comparable to the resurrection of the body from death. This
> >work of God is the work of Christ by the Spirit; without it we
> >cannot see or enter the kingdom. We are born again unto faith, as a
> >living hope. That new spiritual life imparts spiritual ability to
> >know and see spiritual things and to come and enter the kingdom
> >through faith. Without it, that which is born of the flesh is flesh
> >and dead in sin. It is a wondrous work of God in the depths of the
> >heart, a washing and cleansing of the mind and heart and will, by
> >which one born of the Spirit is given to spiritually repent and
> >believe. Without this work of grace the preaching of the gospel
> >leaves man dead. This grace of God is also one that God is able to
> >work in the heart of the smallest child, "But thou art he that took
> >me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my
> >mother' breasts. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God
> >from my mother's belly." Psalm 22:9,10. This new life God calls unto
> >the activity of faith by the gospel.
> >
> >
> >9. Question: How does God call this new life unto faith?
> >
> >
> >Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and
> >now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and
> >they that hear shall live." John 5:25
> >
> >
> >Jesus said, ". . . I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I
> >do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not,
> >because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my
> >voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them
> >eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man
> >pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater
> >than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
> >John 10:25-29.
> >
> >
> >"How shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach,
> >except they be sent? . . . So then faith cometh by hearing, and
> >hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:14,17.
> >
> >Answer: God works faith by calling those whom He quickens unto life
> >by the word of Christ, so that through the preaching they
> >spiritually hear Christ the Shepherd and come to him as His sheep by
> >faith. Faith therefore is kindled in the hearts of the regenerated
> >by the Spirit and Word. This work of grace, Christ works in His
> >sheep given to Him. This is not accomplished merely by the sound of
> >the preaching, but by a work of grace. Those who do not come, abide
> >in unbelief because they are not Christ's elect sheep. The seed of
> >the gospel grows when it is planted in regenerated or prepared soil,
> >just as it does not grow on the path, in the weeds, or on stony
> >ground, as Jesus explains in the Parable of the Sower (Matthew 13).
> >
> >
> >10. Question: What is the nature of this spiritual hearing or seeing?
> >
> >
> >"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord
> >of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the
> >wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so,
> >Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered
> >unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father;
> >neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to
> >whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Matthew 11:25-27.
> >
> >
> >Jesus' testimony concerning Peter's faith and confession, "Thou art
> >the Christ, the Son of the living God," was this, "Blessed art thou,
> >Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee,
> >but my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 16:17
> >
> >Answer: It is a work of grace by which we are given to see spiritual
> >things spiritually, know spiritual things, understand, and believe.
> >Jesus speaks of it as a work of God which is revelation, a lifting
> >of the veil of darkness, which gives light.
> >
> >
> >Hence we also read," But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and
> >your ears, for they hear." Matthew 13:16.
> >
> >
> >We read, "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an
> >holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the
> >praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his
> >marvellous light:," I Peter 2:9
> >
> >
> >We read of God, "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
> >and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son," Colossians 1:13
> >
> >Hence the answer is also that it is God's work of grace, Who takes
> >us from darkness to light, quickens to life and works faith. "For by
> >grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is
> >the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are
> >his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God
> >hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10.
> >
> >
> >11. Question: But does not the Bible also speak of our accepting Christ?
> >
> >
> >In the context of God's "choosing us" and predestinating us
> >(Ephesians 1:4, 5), the Bible says, "To the praise of the glory of
> >his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." Ephesians 1:6
> >
> >Answer: the Bible speaks of our being accepted of God in Christ, and
> >not our accepting Him. That acceptance is grounded in Jesus' atoning
> >death: "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the
> >forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"
> >Ephesians 1:7. This is the legal basis of our being received of God
> >in mercy and forgiven. It is also the legal basis of God's work of
> >grace by which He imparts faith, salvation to us through faith, and
> >righteousness by means of faith and justification.
> >
> >
> >12. Question: Why do you speak of the legal basis of faith?
> >
> >
> >"For we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all
> >under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" Romans 1:9.
> >
> >
> >"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As
> >the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my
> >life for the sheep." John 10:14,15
> >
> >
> >"For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to
> >believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;" Philippians 1:29
> >
> >Answer: We are not only dead in sin and unable to come to God, but
> >we are also guilty before God and have no right to come and be
> >accepted. Jesus died for His sheep given Him of the Father, His
> >elect. In His death He bought His sheep. By His righteousness and
> >payment for sin as a ransom, He also bought faith, which is given us
> >"on behalf of" Christ. To that blessing of faith therefore belongs
> >also the privilege of suffering for Christ's sake. Except Christ
> >died for us, we have no right to any spiritual life, for ". . . the
> >wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23) Faith, as a work of grace,
> >rests upon the foundation of Jesus' atonement and belongs to the
> >gift of eternal life and the ransom He gave.
> >
> >
> >Hence it is written, "For even the Son of man came not to be
> >ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for
> >many," Mark 10:45.
> >
> >
> >Hence also we were redeemed not only from sin in general but from
> >the vanity of unbelief and "by him do believe. " "Forasmuch as ye
> >know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver
> >and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from
> >your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb
> >without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before
> >the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times
> >for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the
> >dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God."
> >I Peter 1:18-21.
> >
> >13. Question: But are we not said to "receive" Christ?
> >
> >
> >"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the
> >sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born,
> >not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,
> >but of God.," John 1:12,13
> >
> >Answer: Yes we are said to receive Christ as a gift given of God,
> >which gift is also to be understood as being received of God's grace
> >through a faith which is God's work in us. By that gift we are given
> >of the Spirit, "power to become sons of God."
> >
> >
> >That same gift is described in Romans 8:15-17: "Ye have received the
> >Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself
> >beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
> >And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ."
> >
> >
> >The same passage in John cited above, however, explains this work of
> >the Spirit in us. We are given to become sons of God because we ". .
> >. were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the
> >will of man, but of God." We were born (past tense) and were given
> >power to become sons of God, which we are, but not yet in
> >perfection. Being born again was the cause. It was not man's will of
> >the flesh (free will) nor our natural birth (will of a male father).
> >We were born "of God," received Christ by faith, embraced Him, and
> >were given the blessing of adoption. It is all the Spirit's work as
> >the Spirit of adoption, unto which adoption we were also
> >predestinated (Ephesians 1:5).
> >
> >
> >What the text is not talking about is an act of man dependent upon
> >the will of the flesh of a dead sinner by which man decides to believe.
> >
> >
> >14. What is the summary of the matter?
> >
> >
> >Salvation is of God. He ordained it, He accomplished it in Christ
> >and He applies it by the Spirit. He that is saved is "of God," that
> >is, he is God's work of grace from beginning to end. He that does
> >not believe is a sinner, who is not "of God."
> >
> >
> >Thus Jesus said to the unbelieving, "He that is of God heareth God's
> >words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God," John 8:47.
> >
> >What then is the spiritual response of one who is given to know
> >God's grace? It is a doxology of praise and thanksgiving.
> >
> >Thus we read, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus
> >Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly
> >places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the
> >foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame
> >before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of
> >children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure
> >of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he
> >hath made us accepted in the beloved." Ephesians 1:3-6.
> >
> >Is this confession yours?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------
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18:02:00

Harold,

Thanks for the reply. I am happy to discuss further the scriptures brought up,
however, I wanted to camp in one area for right now and maybe go to some other
issues later. I still have not received a satisfactory Biblical answer to the
reason why someone receives Christ while the other person does not. You
indicated that one person sees the need for Christ more than another person, and
a while back, you could not answer why that is the case that someone sees the
need more than another person. I still am not satisfied at that type of
response. Am I not teaching the Bible when I say the reason is that no one wants
Christ per Ephesians 2, Romans 3, the Isaiah scripture that our good works are
filthy rags, that God is the author and finisher of our faith, and that our
heart is deceitful? Am I not Biblical when I say we are born sinners therefore
all of us deserve hell including a child? Anyone who knows me knows that I want
to look at scripture only, not what any confession, pastor, or denomination
says, therefore, I am looking forward to your Biblical answer to the question as
to why one person sees the need for Christ more than another person.

Thanks,
Mohan

--- In ReformedWatchmen@yahoogroups.com, Harold Smith <inchrist@...> wrote:
>
> At 07:21 PM 26/08/2009, you wrote:
> >Taken From:
> >http://www.reformedspokane.org
> >
> >Who Chooses?
> >(according to the Scriptures)
> >
> >We hear a lot
> >
> >about choosing Christ,
> >about receiving Him,
> >about making a decision to believe.
> >
> >What does the Bible, the Word of God, actually say?
>
> Dear Mohan,
> You have selected some choice questions to fit scriptures to to make
> your points. Some of them you did not have to bend too much.
>
> You are not preaching the Word of God, but abusing it to answer your
> own choice questions.
> The only person that was elected of God before the foundation of the
> world was God's Son.  Isa. 42:1  Every person in Christ is elect,
> because He is the Elect of God. You do not become a child of God by
> election, but by faith in Christ Jesus, Gal 3:26,   For ye are all
> the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
>
>
> >1. Question: Who chooses?
> >
> >Jesus told the disciples that He chose them, "Ye have not chosen me,
> >but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring
> >forth fruit, . . ." John 15:16.
>
> Did you forget that one of the was lost John 17:12? While I was with
> them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me
> I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that
> the scripture might be fulfilled.  You would do a lot of bending on this one
>
> You can teach anything and find a verse here and there to support it.
>
> Let God be true and every man a liar.
>
> Thank God for the simplicity there is in being saved.  John 3;16-18
> For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
> whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
> For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but
> that the world through him might be saved.
> He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not
> is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the
> only begotten Son of God.
> This would give you problems
>
> Saved by grace alone through faith alone, Eph 2:8
> Harold
>
>
>
>
> >God chose from the foundation of the world "According as he hath
> >chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should
> >be holy and without blame before him in love:" Ephesians 1:4.
> >
> >We are chosen of God to salvation and to believe, "God hath from the
> >beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the
> >Spirit and belief of the truth: . . ." II Thessalonians 2:13.
> >
> >We are chosen and caused to come near to God to dwell in his house,
> >"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto
> >thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with
> >the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple." Psalm 65:4
> >
> >Answer: Evidently God does the choosing unto faith and salvation.
> >
> >
> >2. Question: Why did God choose?
> >
> >
> >"According as he hath chosen us in him... Having predestinated us
> >unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according
> >to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his
> >grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." Ephesians 1:4-6
> >
> >Answer: God chooses according to His counsel of predestination,
> >according to His own good pleasure and for His own glory.
> >
> >
> >3. Question: In what manner did God choose?
> >
> >
> >"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the
> >wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound
> >the things which are mighty; and base things of the world, and
> >things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which
> >are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should
> >glory in his presence." I Corinthians 1:27-29
> >
> >Answer: God has chosen in a manner that makes it clear that those
> >chosen did not choose of themselves and were not worthy and in a
> >manner which sets the pride of men on its head, and to this end:
> >"That no flesh should glory in his presence."
> >
> >
> >4. Question: But why is the gospel is to be preached unto to all men
> >since God only chooses some?
> >
> >
> >This is also explained in Scripture, "Wherefore also it is contained
> >in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect,
> >precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto
> >you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be
> >disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is
> >made the head of the corner, and a stone of stumbling, and a rock of
> >offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient:
> >whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation,
> >a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye
> >should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of
> >darkness into his marvellous light:" I Peter 2:6-9
> >
> >Answer: The preaching of the gospel comes to all. It comes as a
> >stone set in the way. To believers it is the precious word of life,
> >and they are built upon it as living stones in Christ (I Peter 2:5)
> >For others it is a stone of stumbling, a rock of offense. Moreover,
> >those who believe do so because they are "a chosen generation,"
> >effectually brought by God to faith: "who hath called you out of
> >darkness into his marvelous light." Others do not believe but
> >stumble, to which stumbling, "also they were appointed." God sends
> >the gospel to save His chosen, while also hardening in sin and
> >unbelief others, appointed to stumble at the word and be judged in
> >their unbelief.
> >
> >
> >5. Question: But are we not commanded to believe?
> >
> >
> >The Word describes the preaching among the Gentiles: "and as many as
> >were ordained to eternal life believed," Acts 13:48
> >
> >
> >The Word describes Lydia's coming to faith thus: "whose heart the
> >Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of
> >Paul," Acts 16:14.
> >
> >Answer: Believing (the activity of faith) is a work of grace,
> >grounded in God's election and imparted by the Holy Spirit Who works
> >it. It does not proceed from man nor is it something man can do of
> >himself. We are commanded to believe, but God works in His elect
> >what He commands. Faith does not have its source in man.
> >
> >
> >6. Question: But does not man have free will?
> >
> >
> >Jesus teaches that coming to Him by faith is a matter of God's
> >election, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him
> >that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out," John 6:37.
> >
> >
> >Jesus denies the ability of man to come unto him: "No man can come
> >to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will
> >raise him up at the last day." John 6:44
> >
> >
> >Jesus says that coming to him by faith is a gift given by God, "And
> >he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me,
> >except it were given unto him of my Father," John 6:65.
> >
> >
> >The Word of God also says of man in himself, "But the natural man
> >receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are
> >foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are
> >spiritually discerned," I Corinthians 2:14.
> >
> >Answer: Jesus Himself denies that man has free will, so as to be
> >able to choose the good or believe. The word of God teaches that man
> >is fallen into sin and is become, through the fall, by nature, an
> >unbeliever who is not able to understand the gospel or come to
> >Christ or believe, except God give him the gift of faith and work
> >its activity in him.
> >
> >
> >7. Question: But does not man make real choices?
> >
> >
> >Jesus, speaking of sinful man and false prophets, specifically says,
> >"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns,
> >or figs of thistles,? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good
> >fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree
> >cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring
> >forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is
> >hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye
> >shall know them." Matthew 7:17-20
> >
> >
> >The Word of God speaking of carnal or fleshly man, man as he is
> >fallen in sin, says, "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be
> >spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is
> >enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither
> >indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please
> >God," Romans 8:6-9.
> >
> >Answer: Man makes real choices, in harmony with his nature which is
> >fallen in sin and unbelief. Since man is wicked, he makes wicked
> >choices and is unable and unwilling to obey God, or to repent and
> >believe. Man is not neutral, standing between good and evil, but
> >evil. Therefore he is described spiritually and morally as being
> >"dead in trespasses and sins," and under the government of sin
> >(Ephesians 2:1-3). What a corrupt tree is unable to do is bring
> >forth the good fruit of faith. Man must be saved by the grace of God
> >and become by the Spirit a spiritual man, or to use Jesus' figure, a
> >good tree. Evil choices therefore proceed from an evil nature and
> >good spiritual choices proceed from a renewed nature. Thus Moses did
> >not choose to believe, but believing, chose by faith to suffer for
> >Christ's sake, "By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused
> >to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to
> >suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the
> >pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ
> >greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto
> >the recompence of the reward." Hebrews 11:24.
> >
> >
> >8. How does God work this spiritual renewal?
> >
> >
> >"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
> >Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
> >Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can
> >he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus
> >answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of
> >water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
> >That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of
> >the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be
> >born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the
> >sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it
> >goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." John 3:3-8.
> >
> >
> >"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; .
> >. . Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with
> >Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and
> >made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus," Ephesians 2:1,5,6.
> >
> >
> >"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to
> >his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing
> >of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus
> >Christ our Saviour," Titus 3:5,6.
> >
> >
> >"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which
> >according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively
> >hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead," I Peter 1:3.
> >
> >Answer: We are born again or regenerated. This is a spiritual
> >renewal of the nature, a resurrection of the soul from death to
> >life, comparable to the resurrection of the body from death. This
> >work of God is the work of Christ by the Spirit; without it we
> >cannot see or enter the kingdom. We are born again unto faith, as a
> >living hope. That new spiritual life imparts spiritual ability to
> >know and see spiritual things and to come and enter the kingdom
> >through faith. Without it, that which is born of the flesh is flesh
> >and dead in sin. It is a wondrous work of God in the depths of the
> >heart, a washing and cleansing of the mind and heart and will, by
> >which one born of the Spirit is given to spiritually repent and
> >believe. Without this work of grace the preaching of the gospel
> >leaves man dead. This grace of God is also one that God is able to
> >work in the heart of the smallest child, "But thou art he that took
> >me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my
> >mother' breasts. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God
> >from my mother's belly." Psalm 22:9,10. This new life God calls unto
> >the activity of faith by the gospel.
> >
> >
> >9. Question: How does God call this new life unto faith?
> >
> >
> >Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and
> >now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and
> >they that hear shall live." John 5:25
> >
> >
> >Jesus said, ". . . I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I
> >do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not,
> >because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my
> >voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them
> >eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man
> >pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater
> >than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
> >John 10:25-29.
> >
> >
> >"How shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach,
> >except they be sent? . . . So then faith cometh by hearing, and
> >hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:14,17.
> >
> >Answer: God works faith by calling those whom He quickens unto life
> >by the word of Christ, so that through the preaching they
> >spiritually hear Christ the Shepherd and come to him as His sheep by
> >faith. Faith therefore is kindled in the hearts of the regenerated
> >by the Spirit and Word. This work of grace, Christ works in His
> >sheep given to Him. This is not accomplished merely by the sound of
> >the preaching, but by a work of grace. Those who do not come, abide
> >in unbelief because they are not Christ's elect sheep. The seed of
> >the gospel grows when it is planted in regenerated or prepared soil,
> >just as it does not grow on the path, in the weeds, or on stony
> >ground, as Jesus explains in the Parable of the Sower (Matthew 13).
> >
> >
> >10. Question: What is the nature of this spiritual hearing or seeing?
> >
> >
> >"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord
> >of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the
> >wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so,
> >Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered
> >unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father;
> >neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to
> >whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Matthew 11:25-27.
> >
> >
> >Jesus' testimony concerning Peter's faith and confession, "Thou art
> >the Christ, the Son of the living God," was this, "Blessed art thou,
> >Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee,
> >but my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 16:17
> >
> >Answer: It is a work of grace by which we are given to see spiritual
> >things spiritually, know spiritual things, understand, and believe.
> >Jesus speaks of it as a work of God which is revelation, a lifting
> >of the veil of darkness, which gives light.
> >
> >
> >Hence we also read," But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and
> >your ears, for they hear." Matthew 13:16.
> >
> >
> >We read, "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an
> >holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the
> >praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his
> >marvellous light:," I Peter 2:9
> >
> >
> >We read of God, "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
> >and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son," Colossians 1:13
> >
> >Hence the answer is also that it is God's work of grace, Who takes
> >us from darkness to light, quickens to life and works faith. "For by
> >grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is
> >the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are
> >his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God
> >hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10.
> >
> >
> >11. Question: But does not the Bible also speak of our accepting Christ?
> >
> >
> >In the context of God's "choosing us" and predestinating us
> >(Ephesians 1:4, 5), the Bible says, "To the praise of the glory of
> >his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." Ephesians 1:6
> >
> >Answer: the Bible speaks of our being accepted of God in Christ, and
> >not our accepting Him. That acceptance is grounded in Jesus' atoning
> >death: "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the
> >forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"
> >Ephesians 1:7. This is the legal basis of our being received of God
> >in mercy and forgiven. It is also the legal basis of God's work of
> >grace by which He imparts faith, salvation to us through faith, and
> >righteousness by means of faith and justification.
> >
> >
> >12. Question: Why do you speak of the legal basis of faith?
> >
> >
> >"For we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all
> >under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" Romans
1:9.
> >
> >
> >"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As
> >the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my
> >life for the sheep." John 10:14,15
> >
> >
> >"For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to
> >believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;" Philippians 1:29
> >
> >Answer: We are not only dead in sin and unable to come to God, but
> >we are also guilty before God and have no right to come and be
> >accepted. Jesus died for His sheep given Him of the Father, His
> >elect. In His death He bought His sheep. By His righteousness and
> >payment for sin as a ransom, He also bought faith, which is given us
> >"on behalf of" Christ. To that blessing of faith therefore belongs
> >also the privilege of suffering for Christ's sake. Except Christ
> >died for us, we have no right to any spiritual life, for ". . . the
> >wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23) Faith, as a work of grace,
> >rests upon the foundation of Jesus' atonement and belongs to the
> >gift of eternal life and the ransom He gave.
> >
> >
> >Hence it is written, "For even the Son of man came not to be
> >ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for
> >many," Mark 10:45.
> >
> >
> >Hence also we were redeemed not only from sin in general but from
> >the vanity of unbelief and "by him do believe. " "Forasmuch as ye
> >know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver
> >and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from
> >your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb
> >without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before
> >the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times
> >for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the
> >dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God."
> >I Peter 1:18-21.
> >
> >13. Question: But are we not said to "receive" Christ?
> >
> >
> >"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the
> >sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born,
> >not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,
> >but of God.," John 1:12,13
> >
> >Answer: Yes we are said to receive Christ as a gift given of God,
> >which gift is also to be understood as being received of God's grace
> >through a faith which is God's work in us. By that gift we are given
> >of the Spirit, "power to become sons of God."
> >
> >
> >That same gift is described in Romans 8:15-17: "Ye have received the
> >Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself
> >beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
> >And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ."
> >
> >
> >The same passage in John cited above, however, explains this work of
> >the Spirit in us. We are given to become sons of God because we ". .
> >. were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the
> >will of man, but of God." We were born (past tense) and were given
> >power to become sons of God, which we are, but not yet in
> >perfection. Being born again was the cause. It was not man's will of
> >the flesh (free will) nor our natural birth (will of a male father).
> >We were born "of God," received Christ by faith, embraced Him, and
> >were given the blessing of adoption. It is all the Spirit's work as
> >the Spirit of adoption, unto which adoption we were also
> >predestinated (Ephesians 1:5).
> >
> >
> >What the text is not talking about is an act of man dependent upon
> >the will of the flesh of a dead sinner by which man decides to believe.
> >
> >
> >14. What is the summary of the matter?
> >
> >
> >Salvation is of God. He ordained it, He accomplished it in Christ
> >and He applies it by the Spirit. He that is saved is "of God," that
> >is, he is God's work of grace from beginning to end. He that does
> >not believe is a sinner, who is not "of God."
> >
> >
> >Thus Jesus said to the unbelieving, "He that is of God heareth God's
> >words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God," John 8:47.
> >
> >What then is the spiritual response of one who is given to know
> >God's grace? It is a doxology of praise and thanksgiving.
> >
> >Thus we read, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus
> >Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly
> >places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the
> >foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame
> >before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of
> >children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure
> >of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he
> >hath made us accepted in the beloved." Ephesians 1:3-6.
> >
> >Is this confession yours?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
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1. Question: Who chooses?

Jesus told the disciples that He chose them, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, . . ." John 15:16.

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http://www.reformedspokane.org

Who Chooses?
(according to the Scriptures)

We hear a lot

about choosing Christ,
about receiving Him,
about making a decision to believe.

What does the Bible, the Word of God, actually say?

1. Question: Who chooses?

Jesus told the disciples that He chose them, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have
chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, . . ."
John 15:16.

God chose from the foundation of the world "According as he hath chosen us in
him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame
before him in love:" Ephesians 1:4.

We are chosen of God to salvation and to believe, "God hath from the beginning
chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the
truth: . . ." II Thessalonians 2:13.

We are chosen and caused to come near to God to dwell in his house, "Blessed is
the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell
in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy
holy temple." Psalm 65:4

Answer: Evidently God does the choosing unto faith and salvation.


2. Question: Why did God choose?


"According as he hath chosen us in him... Having predestinated us unto the
adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure
of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us
accepted in the beloved." Ephesians 1:4-6

Answer: God chooses according to His counsel of predestination, according to His
own good pleasure and for His own glory.


3. Question: In what manner did God choose?


"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and
God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are
mighty; and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God
chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That
no flesh should glory in his presence." I Corinthians 1:27-29

Answer: God has chosen in a manner that makes it clear that those chosen did not
choose of themselves and were not worthy and in a manner which sets the pride of
men on its head, and to this end: "That no flesh should glory in his presence."


4. Question: But why is the gospel is to be preached unto to all men since God
only chooses some?


This is also explained in Scripture, "Wherefore also it is contained in the
scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he
that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe
he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders
disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, and a stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being
disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation,
a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth
the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous
light:" I Peter 2:6-9

Answer: The preaching of the gospel comes to all. It comes as a stone set in the
way. To believers it is the precious word of life, and they are built upon it as
living stones in Christ (I Peter 2:5) For others it is a stone of stumbling, a
rock of offense. Moreover, those who believe do so because they are "a chosen
generation," effectually brought by God to faith: "who hath called you out of
darkness into his marvelous light." Others do not believe but stumble, to which
stumbling, "also they were appointed." God sends the gospel to save His chosen,
while also hardening in sin and unbelief others, appointed to stumble at the
word and be judged in their unbelief.


5. Question: But are we not commanded to believe?


The Word describes the preaching among the Gentiles: "and as many as were
ordained to eternal life believed," Acts 13:48


The Word describes Lydia's coming to faith thus: "whose heart the Lord opened,
that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul," Acts 16:14.

Answer: Believing (the activity of faith) is a work of grace, grounded in God's
election and imparted by the Holy Spirit Who works it. It does not proceed from
man nor is it something man can do of himself. We are commanded to believe, but
God works in His elect what He commands. Faith does not have its source in man.


6. Question: But does not man have free will?


Jesus teaches that coming to Him by faith is a matter of God's election, "All
that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in
no wise cast out," John 6:37.


Jesus denies the ability of man to come unto him: "No man can come to me, except
the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last
day." John 6:44


Jesus says that coming to him by faith is a gift given by God, "And he said,
Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given
unto him of my Father," John 6:65.


The Word of God also says of man in himself, "But the natural man receiveth not
the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can
he know them, because they are spiritually discerned," I Corinthians 2:14.

Answer: Jesus Himself denies that man has free will, so as to be able to choose
the good or believe. The word of God teaches that man is fallen into sin and is
become, through the fall, by nature, an unbeliever who is not able to understand
the gospel or come to Christ or believe, except God give him the gift of faith
and work its activity in him.


7. Question: But does not man make real choices?


Jesus, speaking of sinful man and false prophets, specifically says, "Ye shall
know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles,?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth
forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a
corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good
fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall
know them." Matthew 7:17-20


The Word of God speaking of carnal or fleshly man, man as he is fallen in sin,
says, "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life
and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject
to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh
cannot please God," Romans 8:6-9.

Answer: Man makes real choices, in harmony with his nature which is fallen in
sin and unbelief. Since man is wicked, he makes wicked choices and is unable and
unwilling to obey God, or to repent and believe. Man is not neutral, standing
between good and evil, but evil. Therefore he is described spiritually and
morally as being "dead in trespasses and sins," and under the government of sin
(Ephesians 2:1-3). What a corrupt tree is unable to do is bring forth the good
fruit of faith. Man must be saved by the grace of God and become by the Spirit a
spiritual man, or to use Jesus' figure, a good tree. Evil choices therefore
proceed from an evil nature and good spiritual choices proceed from a renewed
nature. Thus Moses did not choose to believe, but believing, chose by faith to
suffer for Christ's sake, "By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to
be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction
with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for
he had respect unto the recompence of the reward." Hebrews 11:24.


8. How does God work this spiritual renewal?


"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man
be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How
can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's
womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man
be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit
is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind
bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell
whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the
Spirit." John 3:3-8.


"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; . . . Even
when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye
are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly
places in Christ Jesus," Ephesians 2:1,5,6.


"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he
saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which
he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour," Titus 3:5,6.


"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his
abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of
Jesus Christ from the dead," I Peter 1:3.

Answer: We are born again or regenerated. This is a spiritual renewal of the
nature, a resurrection of the soul from death to life, comparable to the
resurrection of the body from death. This work of God is the work of Christ by
the Spirit; without it we cannot see or enter the kingdom. We are born again
unto faith, as a living hope. That new spiritual life imparts spiritual ability
to know and see spiritual things and to come and enter the kingdom through
faith. Without it, that which is born of the flesh is flesh and dead in sin. It
is a wondrous work of God in the depths of the heart, a washing and cleansing of
the mind and heart and will, by which one born of the Spirit is given to
spiritually repent and believe. Without this work of grace the preaching of the
gospel leaves man dead. This grace of God is also one that God is able to work
in the heart of the smallest child, "But thou art he that took me out of the
womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother' breasts. I was cast
upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly." Psalm 22:9,10.
This new life God calls unto the activity of faith by the gospel.


9. Question: How does God call this new life unto faith?


Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is,
when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall
live." John 5:25


Jesus said, ". . . I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my
Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not
of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and
they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,
neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me,
is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
John 10:25-29.


"How shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they
be sent? . . . So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
Romans 10:14,17.

Answer: God works faith by calling those whom He quickens unto life by the word
of Christ, so that through the preaching they spiritually hear Christ the
Shepherd and come to him as His sheep by faith. Faith therefore is kindled in
the hearts of the regenerated by the Spirit and Word. This work of grace, Christ
works in His sheep given to Him. This is not accomplished merely by the sound of
the preaching, but by a work of grace. Those who do not come, abide in unbelief
because they are not Christ's elect sheep. The seed of the gospel grows when it
is planted in regenerated or prepared soil, just as it does not grow on the
path, in the weeds, or on stony ground, as Jesus explains in the Parable of the
Sower (Matthew 13).


10. Question: What is the nature of this spiritual hearing or seeing?


"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven
and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and
hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy
sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the
Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to
whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Matthew 11:25-27.


Jesus' testimony concerning Peter's faith and confession, "Thou art the Christ,
the Son of the living God," was this, "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for
flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in
heaven." Matthew 16:17

Answer: It is a work of grace by which we are given to see spiritual things
spiritually, know spiritual things, understand, and believe. Jesus speaks of it
as a work of God which is revelation, a lifting of the veil of darkness, which
gives light.


Hence we also read," But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for
they hear." Matthew 13:16.


We read, "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a
peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called
you out of darkness into his marvellous light:," I Peter 2:9


We read of God, "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath
translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son," Colossians 1:13

Hence the answer is also that it is God's work of grace, Who takes us from
darkness to light, quickens to life and works faith. "For by grace are ye saved
through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works,
lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus
unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
Ephesians 2:8-10.


11. Question: But does not the Bible also speak of our accepting Christ?


In the context of God's "choosing us" and predestinating us (Ephesians 1:4, 5),
the Bible says, "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made
us accepted in the beloved." Ephesians 1:6

Answer: the Bible speaks of our being accepted of God in Christ, and not our
accepting Him. That acceptance is grounded in Jesus' atoning death: "In whom we
have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the
riches of his grace;" Ephesians 1:7. This is the legal basis of our being
received of God in mercy and forgiven. It is also the legal basis of God's work
of grace by which He imparts faith, salvation to us through faith, and
righteousness by means of faith and justification.


12. Question: Why do you speak of the legal basis of faith?


"For we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" Romans 1:9.


"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father
knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."
John 10:14,15


"For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him,
but also to suffer for his sake;" Philippians 1:29

Answer: We are not only dead in sin and unable to come to God, but we are also
guilty before God and have no right to come and be accepted. Jesus died for His
sheep given Him of the Father, His elect. In His death He bought His sheep. By
His righteousness and payment for sin as a ransom, He also bought faith, which
is given us "on behalf of" Christ. To that blessing of faith therefore belongs
also the privilege of suffering for Christ's sake. Except Christ died for us, we
have no right to any spiritual life, for ". . . the wages of sin is death."
(Romans 6:23) Faith, as a work of grace, rests upon the foundation of Jesus'
atonement and belongs to the gift of eternal life and the ransom He gave.


Hence it is written, "For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto,
but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many," Mark 10:45.


Hence also we were redeemed not only from sin in general but from the vanity of
unbelief and "by him do believe. " "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not
redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain
conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious
blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was
foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last
times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead,
and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God." I Peter 1:18-21.

13. Question: But are we not said to "receive" Christ?


"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the
will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.," John 1:12,13

Answer: Yes we are said to receive Christ as a gift given of God, which gift is
also to be understood as being received of God's grace through a faith which is
God's work in us. By that gift we are given of the Spirit, "power to become sons
of God."


That same gift is described in Romans 8:15-17: "Ye have received the Spirit of
adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with
our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs
of God, and joint-heirs with Christ."


The same passage in John cited above, however, explains this work of the Spirit
in us. We are given to become sons of God because we ". . . were born, not of
blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." We
were born (past tense) and were given power to become sons of God, which we are,
but not yet in perfection. Being born again was the cause. It was not man's will
of the flesh (free will) nor our natural birth (will of a male father). We were
born "of God," received Christ by faith, embraced Him, and were given the
blessing of adoption. It is all the Spirit's work as the Spirit of adoption,
unto which adoption we were also predestinated (Ephesians 1:5).


What the text is not talking about is an act of man dependent upon the will of
the flesh of a dead sinner by which man decides to believe.


14. What is the summary of the matter?


Salvation is of God. He ordained it, He accomplished it in Christ and He applies
it by the Spirit. He that is saved is "of God," that is, he is God's work of
grace from beginning to end. He that does not believe is a sinner, who is not
"of God."


Thus Jesus said to the unbelieving, "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye
therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God," John 8:47.

What then is the spiritual response of one who is given to know God's grace? It
is a doxology of praise and thanksgiving.

Thus we read, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath
blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According
as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should
be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the
adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure
of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us
accepted in the beloved." Ephesians 1:3-6.

Is this confession yours?

Taken From:
http://www.mydoctrine.com/Rapture.HTM

The Rapture

By James M. Frye

Introduction

There is perhaps no subject today that has aroused more curiosity than that of
the rapture. What is it? When will it take place? What is God's purpose for it?
In this booklet we will seek to answer these questions. But be ready, for what
the Bible says on this subject may be quite different from what you have been
taught.

What is the Rapture?

What is the rapture, and what will happen when it takes place? To answer this
question, let us look at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. We will examine this passage
one verse at a time.

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are
asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:13

This passage begins by talking about those who are asleep. The term "sleep" is
often used in the Bible to refer to believers who have died.

... he [Jesus] saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I
may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall
do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken
of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
John 11:11-14

So, "them which are asleep" is a reference to believers who have died. We must
also keep in mind that it is the body that sleeps and not the soul (Matt.
27:52). The Bible teaches that there is conscious existence after death (Luke
16:19-31; Rev. 6:9-10; Luke 23:43 etc.).

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep
in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:14

When a believer dies, his spirit is separated from his body (James 2:26). The
body returns to the dust, but the spirit returns to God (Eccl. 12:7). For a
believer, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Cor.
5:8).

One day Jesus Christ is going to return to earth. When he does, he will bring
with him believers (their spirits) who have died and gone to heaven. But not all
believers will die before Jesus returns.


For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and
remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are
asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15

There will be believers still alive on this earth when Jesus Christ returns. So
then we have two groups of believers: those who have died (whom Christ will
bring with him); and those who are still alive (whom Christ is coming for).


For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of
the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise
first:
1 Thessalonians 4:16

As we have said, Jesus will return to earth bringing the spirits of believers
who have died with him. But what about their bodies? This verse tells us that he
will raise them from the dead. Jesus will reunite believers' spirits with their
bodies. Their bodies shall be raised immortal, never to die again.

But what about the bodies of believers who are still alive when Jesus returns?
They have not died yet, so they cannot be resurrected (raised from the dead).


Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [die], but we shall all be
changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the
trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be
changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put
on immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:51-53

The bodies of believers who are still alive at the second coming of Christ will
be changed. Their bodies will be changed from mortal to immortal in a moment.


Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [raptured] together with
them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with
the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then both groups (those who have been resurrected and those who have been
changed) shall be raptured together to meet the Lord in the air at his coming.

When Will the Rapture Take Place?

There is much debate today about the timing of the rapture. Will it take place
before the tribulation or after? In this section we will seek to answer this
question.


For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and
remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For
the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the
archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [Raptured] together with
them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with
the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

From this passage, one thing is clear. The rapture will take place when Jesus
comes. So when does Jesus come? Before the tribulation or after?

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and
the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the
powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son
of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they
shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great
glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they
shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to
the other.
Matthew 24:29-31

Jesus will come immediately after the tribulation. It couldn't be any clearer.
What is it called when Jesus comes to gather his elect unto himself? Why, it's
called the rapture, of course. And there it is right in the text immediately
after the tribulation. Notice that he comes in the clouds, with angels and with
the sound of a trumpet. That is almost the exact wording that we found in 1
Thessalonians 4.

Some people will object at this point and tell us that Jesus will come twice.
They say that he will come once before the tribulation, and a second time after
the tribulation. That means that there would be both a second and also a third
coming of Christ. Now where does the Bible speak of a third coming of Christ? It
doesn't. There is no such thing. When challenged, they will respond to this by
saying that both comings are part of the second coming. Now, unless you are
extremely bad at math, you cannot have two second comings. Is that the way we
count (1, 2, 2, 3)? No, of course not. The second part would instead be a third
coming.

To try and get around this obvious difficulty, those who teach a pre-tribulation
rapture speak of the first and second phases of the second coming. Again, where
does the Bible speak of phases of the second coming?

ORIGIN OF THIS DOCTRINE

Where did this doctrine, of a pre-tribulation rapture and of there being two
phases of the Second Coming, come from? It may shock you to learn this, but the
fact is that no one in the Christian Church ever heard of or believed in this
doctrine prior to the 1800's. For 1800 years of Church history no one believed
that the rapture would take place before the tribulation or that there would be
more than one future Coming of Christ. If you doubt this, simply check any of
the confessions and creeds of various denominations prior to this time. Check,
for example, The Westminster Confession of Faith 1644, The Baptist Confession of
Faith 1689, or The New Hampshire Baptist Confession 1833, etc., etc.

How, then, did this doctrine originate? It began in Scotland around 1830 when a
15-year-old girl named Margaret McDonald believed that she had received a new
revelation from God. This supposed new "revelation" was then picked up by a
pastor named Edward Irving, and later by a pastor from the Plymouth Brethren
named John Nelson Darby. Irving, and then Darby began looking at the Bible
through the rose-colored glasses of this young woman's supposed "revelation" and
further developed it into an entire system. This system is known today as
Dispensationalism. This teaching then spread to the United States by the
mid-1800's, although it was still little known.

The doctrine did not become popularized until it was adopted by a man named C.
I. Scofield. This teaching then found its way into the notes of the Scofield
Reference Bible. This Bible was spread far and wide, and it wasn't long before
large numbers of people began interpreting the Second Coming according to
Scofield's notes.

This doctrine has gained such wide acceptance and popularity today, that roughly
90% of all books and perhaps 99% of all radio and TV broadcasts on the subject
of prophecy promote this teaching. Not all of the main-line denominations hold
to this teaching, but those who don't are largely silent on the subject.

So we see that this doctrine did not come from the Bible but rather was imposed
upon the Bible. For 1800 years, no one got this belief from the Bible.

DISPROVING THIS DOCTRINE

There are many passages of scripture that clearly contradict this teaching.


Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our
gathering together unto him [THE RAPTURE], That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as
that the day of Christ is at hand [IMMINENT]. Let no man deceive you by any
means: for that day [THE DAY OF THE RAPTURE] shall not come, except there come a
falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who
opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is
worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that
he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

This passage warns us not to let anyone deceive us by teaching that the rapture
is at hand (imminent). All who teach a pre-tribulation rapture also teach that
the rapture is imminent. It is often said that there is nothing that must take
place before the rapture. They tell us that it could happen at any moment. This
passage warns us not to be deceived by this teaching. It tells us that two
things must happen before the rapture can take place.

1) There will be a falling away (apostasy).

2) The man of sin (the antichrist) will be revealed by entering into the temple
and claiming to be God (the abomination of desolation - Matthew 24:15).

Now, if there is anything that must take place before the rapture, how can it be
imminent (take place at any moment)? And since the rapture is to take place
after the antichrist is revealed, how can it be pre-tribulational? How can the
rapture take place before the tribulation, when the Bible says that it will take
place after an event that all pre-tribulationists agree happens during the
tribulation?

Have you ever seen the end-time movies or read fictional books that are based on
this teaching? We hear of cars suddenly going out of control as the driver
disappears in the rapture. We watch as people who missed the rapture begin
looking around to see who the antichrist will be. Is that the picture the Bible
gives us?


And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed
from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them
that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who
shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord,
and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his
saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among
you was believed) in that day.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

Jesus is coming back for his saints. When he does, he will not only give them
rest from their troubles, but he will also be glorified in them and admired by
them. But is that all he is going to do? No, read the passage. He will also take
vengeance on unbelievers (them that know not God) and cast them into hell
punishing them (with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord).

There is no getting around it, unless you just choose to ignore this passage and
believe whatever you want regardless of scripture. All of this happens at the
one second coming of Christ. Notice that the word when occurs in this passage
twice � Both times between statements of what Jesus will do to believers and
what he will do to unbelievers, inseparably linking the two together. When will
he come for believers? When he comes to judge unbelievers and cast them into
hell.

When the rapture takes place, unbelievers lives will not go on as normal. They
will stand before Jesus in judgment, and he will cast them into hell. How could
there be a tribulation after that?


Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened
unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy
came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was
sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the
servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good
seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy
hath done this. The servants said unto him, wilt thou then that we go and gather
them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also
the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time
of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and
bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Matthew 13:24-30

Here we have the parable of the wheat and tares. The interpretation of the
parable is given a little further on in the chapter.


He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom
[believers]; but the tares are the children of the wicked one [unbelievers]; The
enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the
reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the
fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth
his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and
them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall
be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the
sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Matthew 13:37-43

From this passage we see that believers (wheat) and unbelievers (tares) will
exist together (and not be separated) until "the end of the world". If the
rapture were to take place prior to the tribulation, then believers and
unbelievers would have to be separated before the end of the world. But Jesus
tells us this is not the case. This passage also says that when Jesus comes to
gather (rapture) believers to himself, he will also cast unbelievers into hell.
How could the tribulation possibly take place after all unbelievers have been
cast into hell? No one would be left to follow the Antichrist? No! The rapture
takes place after the tribulation.

THE DAY OF THE LORD

When studying scripture, it is important to study each passage in its context.
The subject of the second coming and the rapture does not stop at the end of 1
Thessalonians chapter 4. It carries on into chapter 5. So let's look at that
section.


For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of
the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise
first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [RAPTURED] together
with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be
with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times
and seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves
know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-5:2

From reading this passage in context, one thing is immediately clear. The day in
which the rapture takes place is called the day of the Lord. Does the day of the
Lord take place before the tribulation or after the tribulation? How can we know
when it begins?


Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to
lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For
the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light:
the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her
light to shine.
Isaiah 13:9-10

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great
and the terrible day of the Lord come.

Joel 2:31

Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is
near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the
stars shall withdraw their shining.

Joel 3:14-15

From these passages, we see that the day of the Lord begins with cosmic signs in
the sun, moon and stars. So, when do these cosmic signs take place? Before the
tribulation or after?


Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and
the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the
powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:29

The cosmic signs will take place after the tribulation. So the day of the Lord
will take place after the tribulation. And since the rapture takes place on the
day of the Lord, we also know that the rapture will also take place after the
tribulation. And as we saw earlier, it's right there in the text.


Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and
the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the
powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son
of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they
shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great
glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they
shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to
the other.
Matthew 24:29-31

Why is There a Rapture?

If the purpose of the rapture is not to deliver believers from the coming
tribulation, what, then, is its purpose? Let's look at a passage that we looked
at earlier.


And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed
from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them
that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who
shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord,
and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his
saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among
you was believed) in that day.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

Jesus is coming back to give believers (who have been going through the
tribulation) rest from their troubles. At the same time, he will also be coming
in flaming fire, taking vengeance on unbelievers (them that know not God). The
purpose of the rapture is to get believers out of the way of the fire.


Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they
bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went
out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Luke 17:28-30

Just as God sent angels to deliver Lot out of Sodom before he destroyed it with
fire, Jesus will also send his angels to deliver believers from the fire to
come.


But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the
heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with
fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons
ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting
unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be
dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we,
according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth
righteousness.
2 Peter 3:10-13

As we have seen previously, the day of the Lord is the day in which the rapture
takes place. When Jesus comes, he will not only rapture believers but will also
destroy the heavens and the earth with fire. The purpose of the rapture is to
get believers out of the way of the fire.

Common Objections

There are a number of objections that are often raised against the post-trib.
rapture position that is set forth in this booklet. In this section we will look
at some of the more common ones.

#1) Coming For �vs� With His Saints

"Some passages say that, at the Second Coming, Jesus will come with his saints
(believers). Other passages say that, at the Second Coming, Jesus will come for
his saints. Now, how can he come with them unless he first comes for them?
Therefore, there must be two phases of the Second Coming."

Sounds good, doesn't it? Human reasoning always does (1 Cor. 3:19, Cols. 2:8).
There is no discrepancy here. They do err not knowing the Scriptures (Matt.
22:29).


For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep
in Jesus [Christians who have died] will God bring with him. . . .
Here we have the saints that he is coming with.


For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we [CHRISTIANS] which are
alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are
asleep
1 Thessalonians 4:14-15

Here we have the saints that he is coming for.

We have both groups in the same passage at the same time � the second coming
(not comings) of Christ.

The saints that he is coming with are Christians who have died and are coming
back with him from heaven. The saints that he is coming for are Christians still
alive on the earth. No discrepancy! And no excuse for creating two Phases of the
second coming.

#2) Kept from the hour

"Jesus promises to keep us "from the hour of temptation (Rev. 3:10). Since the
hour of temptation is the tribulation, we must, therefore, be removed from the
earth (in the rapture) before the tribulation starts."


Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the
hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell
upon the earth.
Revelation 3:10

This verse is often used by those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture to
"prove" their position. But what does the phrase "keep thee from" mean? They say
that it means that believers will not even be here during the temptation. Is
that what it means? Lets look at another verse of scripture that uses this same
phase and see.


I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou
shouldest keep them from the evil.
John 17:15

Jesus is praying for his disciples. He does not pray for God to take them "out
of the world" (as a rapture would) but that the Father will "keep them from"
evil. Evidently being kept "from" something does not necessitate ones removal
from the earth.

"Keep them from" is used here to mean "protect in the midst of". Was there evil
in the world during the days of these disciples? Yes there was, and they were
protected from it. The term "keep them from" is used in a spiritual, not a
physical sense. It does not mean "protected them from any bad thing happening to
them". Remember that the majority of those for whom Christ was praying were
eventually martyred.

They were not kept from physical harm but from spiritual harm. "Keep from evil"
refers to being protected in the midst of spiritual evil. And, during the
Tribulation, true Christians shall be "protected from" being deceived by the
Antichrist.


For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great
signs and wonders; insomuch that, "if it were possible", [indicating that it is
not possible] they shall deceive the very elect.
Matthew 24:24

Believers will be "kept from" this temptation (deception). They will not be
deceived by the Antichrist. This is not true, however, of unbelievers.


And then shall that Wicked [the Antichrist] be revealed, whom the Lord shall
consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of
his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power
and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in
them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they
might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that
they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the
truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Thessalonians 2:8-12

#3) Not Appointed unto wrath

"God has not appointed believers unto wrath, therefore, believers must be
raptured before the tribulation".


For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord
Jesus Christ,
1 Thessalonians 5:9

Pre-tribers falsely assume that the tribulation and the day of God's wrath are
one and the same. Their reasoning goes like this:

1) The tribulation is the pouring out of God's wrath.

2) Believers are not appointed to wrath.

3) Therefore, believers must be raptured before

the tribulation.

What is wrong with this reasoning? The Bible clearly teaches that the wrath of
God is not poured out until AFTER the tribulation is over!

1) Jesus taught that cosmic signs in the sun, moon, and stars would signal the
end of the tribulation.


Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the SUN be darkened, and
the MOON shall not give her light, and the STARS shall fall from heaven, and the
powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:29


2) These cosmic signs (which signal the end of the tribulation) occur at the
sixth seal.


And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great
earthquake; and the SUN became black as sackcloth of hair, and the MOON became
as blood; And the STARS of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree
casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Revelation 6:12-13


3) God's wrath is not yet poured out until AFTER these cosmic signs have taken
place and the tribulation is over.


And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief
captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid
themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the
mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth
on the throne, and from THE WRATH of the Lamb: For THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS
COME [present tense - it just now got there]; and who shall be able to stand?
Revelation 6:15-17

The great day of God's wrath does not come until after the tribulation is over.
The pouring out of God's wrath is the 7 vials.


And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels SEVEN GOLDEN VIALS FULL OF
THE WRATH OF GOD, who liveth for ever and ever.
Revelation 15:7

And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your
ways, and pour out THE VIALS OF THE WRATH OF GOD upon the earth.

Revelation 16:1


Believers are indeed delivered from the wrath of God, but this wrath is not
poured out until AFTER the tribulation is over. So the rapture need not take
place until AFTER the tribulation is over. This verse (1 Thess. 5:9) does not
disagree with the Post-tribulation rapture position, it actually affirms it.

Summary

At the beginning of this booklet, we set out to answer three questions:

1. What is the rapture, and what will happen when it takes place? We have seen
that when Jesus returns to earth he will bring with him the spirits of believers
who have died. He will then resurrect their bodies, placing their spirits back
into their now resurrected, immortal bodies. Believers who have not yet died,
but are still alive when Christ comes, will have their bodies changed from
mortal to immortal in a moment. Then both groups will be caught up (raptured)
together to meet the Lord in the air at his coming.

2. When will the rapture take place? We have seen that the rapture will take
place immediately after the tribulation, on the day of the Lord when the sun,
moon and stars turn dark.

3. Why is there a rapture? We have seen that when Jesus comes for believers he
is also coming to destroy, not only unbelievers, but also the heavens and the
earth in flaming fire. The purpose of the rapture is to get believers out of the
way of the fire.

I wanted to backtrack a little on the evangelism experiences on my trip and also
take the time to thank some of the brethren who made this trip a joy for me. I
apologize for the long intervals in between the posts, and there have been many
challenges in the workplace since I returned a week and a half ago as well as my
personal life that needs prayer, but I am thankful to God for the big raise I
received at my job immediately after coming back from the trip for a job well
done during the year.

I wanted to mention one man I met near the Philadelphia Greyhound on Friday,
7/31. He asked me if I knew what Acts 2:38 says, and I said sure and quoted the
verse. He then made a surprising statement that Jesus was not the son of God but
that he is God. He said don't let anyone tell you otherwise. That was surprising
since people often say the opposite. I found out he was part of a Apostolic
group, which I was not too familiar with.

On that Friday I also met a homeless man who asked me if I think he looks really
bad to be homeless. I advised him that none of us are good by nature, we are
sinners, and he did not like the response and walked off.

On that Saturday, 8/1, one of the laborers had a son who showed up that
afternoon, and this 33 year old son indicated that he was a Muslim. I tried to
talk to him about Jesus and the resurrection, but we had to go and I could not
get a meaty conversation with this guy.

Now, I want to start thanking some brothers and sisters that made this trip
successful. First, I would like to thank Chad and Theresa Stepke in Hanover Park
for their great hospitality on Sunday and on Wednesday night. The meals on
Sunday and Wednesday were very great, and I liked the 3 children they had who
gave me good company. I also thank them for their zeal, including the kids, in
getting the gospel out and for their sacrifice in moving to a cold part of the
country to do so. Their testimonies can be found on :
http://www.godcentered.info/manuscripts.2008.html

I would like to thank Pastor Matt Black of Tabernacle for his zeal in winning
lost souls in the local area and doing one on one Bible studies. Thank him for
bringing the congregation of Tabernacle to the Biblical sovereign grace
salvation plan.

I would like to thank my longtime friend Sam D'amore from Kenosha, WI for being
bold at the fair with the lady who does license plates and that he rejoiced in
persecution

I thank Bob Leoffert from Pittsburgh for endorsing Tabernacle Baptist church as
a soulwinning church that teaches the doctrines of grace and which is against
the Carnal Christianity doctrine and preaches Lordship salvation, unlike many
modern churches today.

I thank Miles Crouse from Tabernacle who wrote the great article "Ice Breaker's
and tracts" in laboring with me in the fair, and he seemed to like my tracts and
passed many of them out there and got into some challenging conversations

I thank Mark Leoffert in Philadelphia, who was an encouragement to me, as he
works 2 or 3 jobs, has a family, is a pastor of this small church in the works,
and also goes regularly during the week to spread the gospel on the streets and
coordinates Bible study and fellowship times a few times during the week. His
sermon on Sunday, 8/2 on serving was one of the best I heard.

I thank sister Joanne who was on fire for the Lord, and as Pastor Black seems to
want me to move out to cold Chicago to labor with their church, Joanne wished I
would move out to Philadelphia to labor with Mark's group. She really liked my
tracts and called me up this week and wants to make arrangements to get a supply
of those tracts.

I particularly thank brother Penn, who gave me a lot of encouragement as he is a
recent college graduate working right now, and he had great zeal in the lost and
showing hospitality and doing teen Bible studies and also answering Bible
questions adults raise.  He is doing much more service for God than I did when I
was 25.

I thank Joe who brought me from my hotel to Mark's church that Sunday and for
offering fellowship by exchanging contact information. On Sunday night, Joe and
I made a short trip to Malvern Free Presbyterian Church for their evening
services since it is close to Philadelphia. Joe goes regularly to that church
and labors with Mark's group and is thinking about possibly transferring to
Mark's church because of the distance to his place. At the Malvern church, one
7th grader talked to me at great lengths about Jesus, and it was enjoyable. We
had to go, so I could not go on all night with this young man!

Feel free to let me know if you like to encourage any of these people, as I am
sure they would welcome encouragement.

Continuing on with the evangelism report, we headed out to the 69th Street area
in Philadelphia Friday night, which was more upscale. We met one person who
seemed to know the Gospel, but indicated that he could not give up his sins. We
advised that it is impossible for man to give up his sins, God has to give us
the gift of repentance, the ability to turn away from our sins. We met another
man who was very open to talking about the Gospel who indicated he believes the
churches have gone downhill, and I agreed with him to a degree, and indicated
there is still a remnant of true ministries in and out of churches, as always
has been.

Saturday afternoon  on August 1 was another great time of laboring with Mark
Leoffert's group. I went out a little to downtown Philadelphia with brother Penn
who graduated from the University of Pittsburgh 3 years ago, the great melting
pot to share the Gospel. We met one young man who said he was religious, but had
a hard time believing that all of us deserve eternal hell since we are sinners.
We met 2 men who were on loudspeakers and selling cds for $5 who were part of
the 7th day Adventist group. They kept asking if we have the spirit. When I
started to talk about the Biblical doctrine of hell to one of the Adventists,
there was an interruption, so I could not pursue it. The doctrine of
annihilation is Satanic in origin.

We joined up with the rest of the group later that afternoon near a bus terminal
in Philadelphia. One young person who was working at the bus station had a hard
time believing in the Bible. I indicated I myself at one time did not believe
the Bible being brought up as a Hindu, but came to conviction on the Bible in my
pilgrimage. There was another man who had a turban who followed the Seik
religion that we had about an hour conversation with. He was held up on the idea
that we are good people. I kept indicating that Isaiah indicates our good works
are filthy rags, and Jesus is the only way. He seemed to believe that whatever
religion you are does not matter as long as you do good.

Well, I am delighted to continue sharing about my trip last week, which I
believe has been my most fruitful trip to date. Last Thursday, I left Illinois
to go out to Philadelphia to labor and fellowship with and labor with Mark
Leoffert's congregation. I arrived Thursday night and spent the day Friday
evangelizing in downtown Philadelphia near the Galleria and Greyhound bus area
before meeting up with Mark's group Friday evening. Some of the strongest
persecution took place this day. I met one person who I asked about where he
would go after he dies, and he said he does not care where he goes after he
dies. I indicated that he will care one day, as we either go to heaven or hell.
He indicated that I am entitled to my beliefs and he was entitled to his
beliefs, and that apparently I am not educated in believing the myths of the
Bible. He seemed furious and walked off.

I met another person who seemed to be a nominal church goer who said he does not
need a tract since he was born again and did not seem to have the slightest
interest in talking about Jesus. When I started asking further questions, he got
very upset and indicated he works with the Gideons and that I was doing the work
of Satan by dividing the brethren. I indicated that of course I am not surprised
at his attitude, as Jesus was persecuted to death in his day, so are his
followers persecuted today even by so called church goers who are like the
Pharisees. I indicated that just because he goes to Gideons studies does not in
any indicate that it will get him to heaven. He did, however, come back to me
and apologized for the way he reacted, and I indicated I would pray for him and
left it at that. Mark indicated he faced a similar situation near a Wal-Mart,
when he started asking someone questions, they got upset. Peter says to be ready
to give an answer for the hope within you. If there is such a thing as Biblical
righteous anger, and we do have to be careful here, for me, it is the lukewarm
Christianity prevalent in the United States.

Towards Friday evening, I was near the Galleria waiting for Mark, and I passed
out tracts and got into a conversation with a lady, her name was Joanne. She
seemed very delighted at what I was doing and indicated she was a Christian, and
unlike the above person, she was very open and enthusiastic about sharing. I
asked her how she got new life, and she explained that she was raised Catholic
and then became involved in an easy believism congregation. She said all that
time she was involved in this easy believism congregation, she thought she was
saved, but found out about 3 years ago that she was really not since Christ was
not Lord of her life, even though she knew the Gospel intellectually. She
indicated that the Carnal Christianity doctrine is false. I said I am with her
all the way, and after further conversation, we seemed very like minded on the
Biblical concept of salvation. I indicated I was visiting in the area to labor
with a congregation the next few days. She indicated she is part of a small
congregation, and I said I would love to check the website if there was one of
the group she is a part of. When I mentioned Mark's name, she said I have to be
kidding, that she labors with and goes to his congregation. I laughed and
indicated that I have to tell this story to everyone. Since I had not met in
person anyone from Mark's congregation except for Mark and his family, I had no
clue that she would be part of his group. A small world. So we spent more time
of enthusiastic conversation on Christ and waited together for Mark to pick us
up, and we 3 all went together to 69th street to evangelize together. Well,
since it is late and I would like to spend quality time in the Bible and prayer
before retiring for the night, I will share the experiences we had on 69th
street in the next post, Lord willing.

God Bless,
Mohan

Continuing on with the evangelism last week, it was delighting to go out with
Pastor Matt Black of Tabernacle Baptist Church in Hanover Park on Tuesday and
Wednesday. We went to a very open apartment complex in Hanover Park. On Tuesday
morning, we went to visit a couple in that complex who had visited the services
in the past. They basically indicated in the past that they have in the past
accepted the Gospel, but it still seems that God may be in the process of saving
them. We did a study in the book of Ephesians on being chosen of God to
salvation, and they seemed to agree with this. One thing I liked about the
pastor is his desire to do one on one Bible studies with the lost and showing
them directly from scriptures the Biblical truths. I got a chance  to share my
testimony and there was a lot of openness that we spent about an hour and a half
at the household and was an hour late in picking up some people from the
airport!

Later on that day, we went back to the apartment complex and the few people we
knocked doors are were all open to talk. There was one man in a wheelchair who
had a stroke who was not sure of his eternal destiny who was open to the Gospel,
and the pastor took down his number to possibly bring him to church sometime.
When he invited us in to his room, he turned on the TV that had a court show,
and I liked what the pastor said to him, that many things on TV or a waste of
time, we can watch it all day and it will do nothing for our soul. Rather than
that, we can be doing other things for the Lord and other people. We also met a
young lady who lived with her parents and went to a Baptist church but did not
know the Gospel, and we got to share it with her. There was also another lady
with a baby who was open to the gospel and accepted Bibles. On Wednesday, we
went around the neighborhood of the church and invited the children to the
vacation Bible school the church is having, and there was a lot of openness.
There were many Spanish speaking people in this neighborhood and it was good the
pastor knew the language. They are planning on starting a Spanish ministry in
the congregation.

Continuing on the fruitful evangelism this past week, I went out to Chicago last
Monday to evangelize, and then last Tuesday and Wednesday, I went out with
Pastor Matt Black of Tabernacle Baptist Church and labored in Hanover Park. Out
in Chicago, I witnessed near the Union station area downtown, and met a man who
was staying in a homeless shelter and selling streetwise newspapers. He was wide
open to the Gospel and I spent some time talking with him. He indicated that he
has visited some churches in the area and these churches rejected him because he
was black and they had discrimination. I indicated to him that those churches
are apostate, and all of us need Jesus since we are sinners, none of us are
better than anyone else by nature as far as sin. I wanted to give him the
contact information for Tabernacle, but he said he did not have access to a
phone. I remember his name, Jerry, let us keep him in prayer.

I also had a burden for Devon street in Chicago, the heavily Indian populated
area. I met one Indian college student there who did not indicate what religion
he followed, even though I asked him several times. He went along the lines that
all religions are correct. I indicated that the religions contradict each other,
for example, Hinduism teaches reincarnation and gave him my testimony of being a
Hindu. He asked me what scripture I am using for the the Hindu religion to say
they believe in that, and I laughed and honestly told him I was a nominal Hindu
when growing up, so I can't say, but that is what my parents believed as Hindus.
He kept saying that Jesus was begotten of David, and said he would contact me to
share some scriptures from the Bible to back up his views, I have not heard from
him yet.

Looking to Christ,
Mohan

I just got back in town from an exciting trip of  fellowship and evangelism!
From July 26 to July 30, I was in Hanover Park, IL in the Chicago area laboring
with and fellowshipping with Tabernacle Baptist Church and then from July 30th
on I was in the Philadelphia area where Mark Loeffert, the evangelist Bob
Loeffert's son, is in the process of starting a small congregation of about 15
people where about all of them go out on the streets to witness the gospel and
are involved in Godly fellowship several times a week rather than being a social
club or having worldliness as many church goers are headed today, if we are
really honest. I enjoyed my time with both these groups.

On Sunday, July 26th, after the service, I went out with some brethren from
Tabernacle church out to Wheaton, IL where the church had a booth space for a
couple of days where they could give out gospel tracts to people who attended
the fair and talk to them about the Gospel. There were many other people who
were selling items or services at the fair. One of the people I labored with was
brother Chad from Tabernacle who brought his 3 kids ranging from age 4-8 to help
pass out gospel tracts, and I tell you, the kids were aggressive in passing the
tracts out! It is always wise to train the children to pass out tracts at a
young age. Brother Chad moved out to Hanover Park a year ago to labor with
Tabernacle since the grace church he was a part of previously in Louisana where
he use to live was going in a worldly direction.

At the fair, there was lady at one of the booths that designed licensed plates
for people, and she was extremely upset at the Tabernacle group for being there
the past few days and who hated Jesus. Brother Sam from Kenosha, WI joined on
Sunday at the fair, and went up to this lady to ask her about designing a Jesus
license plate, and this lady got upset, and Sam asked her if she hates our group
so much, why doesn't she pray for us, and she said she would have to think about
that. There was another muslim guy right next to our group who was selling
clothing, and he was also upset at our group since he thought that we drove away
his business. I have been praying particular for these 2 people this week. There
was another Catholic lady we talked to who was very upset that evangelist
brother Bob, who actually had to leave earlier back to Pittsburgh and was not at
the fair on Sunday, went to her Catholic agency to give his testimony as a
former Catholic and started asking her questions.

Well, I touched on some negative persecution in this post, and will do so as I
continue sharing in the future posts and hopefully can also share some positive
responses.

God Bless,
Mohan

Before I signed off for the night, I wanted to share this exciting news. I have
not had a vacation in a while, but next week finally I am getting a break, and
will be going out part of the week to Hanover Park, IL to colabor in evangelism
and fellowship with the brethren there at Tabernacle Baptist Church - the
website is http://www.godcentered.info/
Pastor Matt Black there seems excited, evangelist Bob Loeffert from Pittsburgh
is already there and doing evangelistic fairs. For the last part of the week, I
will be off to Philadelphia to colabor and fellowship with more brethren. Please
be in prayer.

God Bless,
Mohan

Taken From:
www.sermonaudio.com

Senate votes to expand federal 'hate crimes'
Associated Press - 7/17/2009

WASHINGTON- People attacked because of their sexual orientation or gender would
receive federal protections under a Senate-approved measure that significantly
expands the reach of "hate crimes" law. The Senate bill also would make it
easier for federal prosecutors to step in when state or local authorities are
unable or unwilling to pursue those acts deemed to be hate crimes.

Senate Democrats insist the hate-crimes amendment (S. 909) they attached to the
defense appropriations bill won't criminalize preaching or speaking out against
homosexuality.

Washington Sen. Patty Murray suggested the measure could actually protect people
of faith by boosting penalties for hate crimes motivated by anti-religious bias.
"Burning down a building is a crime -- but that crime takes on a new character
when that building is a church or a synagogue or a mosque," she stated. "It's
wrong when one person attacks another person on the street, for sure; but it has
a different meaning when violence occurs because a victim is a different race or
religion or sexual orientation."

But Sen. Jim DeMint said that since opposition to homosexuality is "a biblical
concept," the measure could "serve as a warning to people not to speak out too
loudly about their religious views lest the federal law enforcement come
knocking at their door." The South Carolina Republican asked, "Can priests,
pastors, rabbis be sure that their preaching will not be prosecuted?

Michigan Democrat Carl Levin responded that only biased acts of violence, and
not speech, would be prosecuted as hate crimes.

Thursday night in the Senate

"The Senate made a strong statement this evening that hate crimes have no place
in America," Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., said after the chamber
voted Thursday to attach the legislation as an amendment to a $680 billion
defense spending bill expected to be completed next week.

The House in April approved a similar bill and President Barack Obama has urged
Congress to send him hate crimes legislation, presenting the best scenario for
the measure to become law since Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., first introduced
it more than a decade ago.

Republicans will have the opportunity to propose several more changes to the
hate crimes bill on Monday, but that will not change its status as part of the
must-pass defense bill.

Passage of the bill would effect the most significant extension of hate crimes
law since Congress first acted in 1968 after the assassination of Martin Luther
King Jr.

The 1968 law defines hate crimes as those carried out on the basis of race,
color, religion or national origin. It also limits federal involvement to when
the victim is engaged in a narrow range of activities, including attending a
public school, serving as a juror or participating in an event administered by a
state or local government.

The proposed legislation expands federal hate crimes to include those
perpetrated against people because of gender, sexual orientation, gender
identity or disability. It also removes restrictions on federally protected
activities.

"There is no room in our society for these acts of prejudice," said Sen. Jeff
Merkley, D-Ore. "Hate crimes fragment and isolate our communities. They tear at
our collective spirit."

Some 45 states have hate crime statutes, and investigations and prosecutions
would remain mainly in state and local hands. But the bill provides federal
grants to help state and local officials with the costs of prosecuting hate
crimes and funds programs to combat hate crimes committed by juveniles. The
federal government can step in after the Justice Department certifies that a
state does not have jurisdiction or is unable to carry out justice.

Joe Solmonese, president of Human Rights Campaign, the nation's largest
homosexual-rights group, said it "will provide police and sheriff's departments
with the tools and resources they need to ensure that entire communities are not
terrorized by hate violence."

The Senate approved the measure by voice vote after a 63-28 procedural vote was
needed to allow its consideration as part of the defense bill. The 28 no votes
were all Republicans. Five Republicans voted for it, giving supporters the 60
votes they needed. (See the roll call vote)

Opponents of the bill, including conservative religious groups, argued that it
infringes on states' rights and could intimidate free speech. "The bill could
potentially imperil the free speech rights of Christians who choose to speak out
against homosexuality -- which could even be extended to preaching against it,"
The Christian Coalition of America said in a statement.

Supporters countered that prosecutions under the bill can occur only when bodily
injury is involved, and no minister or protester could be targeted for
expressing opposition to homosexuality, even if their statements are followed by
another person committing a violent action.

To emphasize the point, the Senate passed provisions restating that the bill
does not prohibit constitutionally protected speech and that free speech is
guaranteed unless it is intended to plan or prepare for an act of violence.

The FBI receives reports of nearly 8,000 hate crimes each year. Of those, about
15 percent are linked to sexual orientation, which ranks third after those
involving race and religion.