Jim

You got me totally wrong.  I was pointing out that the maintenance part of
ProTrak would probably not meet all persons needs.  ProTrak is not a
maintenance program and when you try to make it one, I think you are missing
the main point of it.

There is a definite need for for prototype operations software like ProTrak.
I am trying to point out that you not need to have a maintenance subprogram
but instead should make it easy to get records into and out of for those of
us who already are using other databases and spreadsheets for inventory and
maintenance purposes.

To repeat the bottom line is that I want a good prototype operations piece
of software that I can easily import records into and out of.  I am sure I
am not alone.


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Moir <moir5sdr@...>
To: Terry & Jan Taylor <jtntaylor@...>
Cc: protrak@onelist.com <protrak@onelist.com>
Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 1:32 PM
Subject: comment


>Terry Taylor,
>
>In part your desires for software come across as being primarily
>"maintenance driven" rather than being "prototype operations" driven.  The
>objective of ProTrak is to provide the user with detailed guidance and
>information in adapting prototype operations methods and procedures to
>operations on a model railroad.
>
>It would appear that ProTrak does not meet your particular needs.  That is
>fine.  I trust that somewhere you will find software that does meet your
>needs.
>
> Jim
>
>Jim Moir/ProTrak <http://www.protrak.cc>
>
>
>

Terry Taylor,

In part your desires for software come across as being primarily
"maintenance driven" rather than being "prototype operations" driven.  The
objective of ProTrak is to provide the user with detailed guidance and
information in adapting prototype operations methods and procedures to
operations on a model railroad.

It would appear that ProTrak does not meet your particular needs.  That is
fine.  I trust that somewhere you will find software that does meet your
needs.

	 Jim

Jim Moir/ProTrak <http://www.protrak.cc>

Jim

That sounds nice on the surface, but can I change the maintenance records in
your data base to keep track of items that I am concerned with on car
maintenance.

I keep track of not only what color formula I paint the car (or loco) so I
can duplicate that paint when I do a similar car but I also track the
maintenance of the different types of kadee similar couplers to determine
which perform better for me (the jury is still out on this one on my
layout).  I also keep track of the different detail parts that I add on etc.
I do not know how detailed your maintenance database is yet but I know that
Filemaker Pro allows me to add fields on the fly if I decide something is
important later (like keeping track of which DCC module from which company I
have installed in each loco) or if I have a car that continuously needs work
(I foolishly thought at first that all I would need at first was a shop date
field, a problem field, a solution field and a fixed date field repeating 4
times for all 4 fields - I have found some cars take quite a bit more work
over the years than just four times.  And this does not even bother to track
the car weight, the type of coupler, the paint, whether it has lights or
other enhancements etc. or even the cost of those modifications where
commercial parts are used.).

While the car/loco records that I am interested in maintaining would be
overkill for some people, I know others who keep for more detailed records
than I do.  I am not really interested in fitting my desires on maintenance
into someone else's patterns unless I can modify those to fit my situation.
I am sure that at least some other modelers feel the same.  Can I do that
with the maintenance records in ProTrak?

If not, then I (and others) am/are stuck with two databases unless you come
up with either a simple file conversion routine that I can run every time I
make a change in either database or better yet a program that will share a
database.  This can be done but It takes either some thought first or a good
flexible database program.  I hope this is your solution and I look forward
to your windows version because the lack of that has been a factor in
keeping me from purchasing ProTrak in the past.

Terry

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim/Natalie Moir <moir5sdr@...>
To: ProTrak@onelist.com <ProTrak@onelist.com>
Date: Monday, August 16, 1999 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [ProTrak] file conversions


>From: Jim/Natalie Moir <moir5sdr@...>
>
>Terry,
>
>>Count me as another one who is interested in easy file conversions.  At
>>present I have all my car (and loco) data in Filemaker Pro and my active
>>roster is also above 400 cars.  While I can export to Excel Ok to convert,
>>this is not a one time event as I am building new cars and upgrading the
>>fleet as I go and I expect that will never end. I also keep maintenance
>>records on each car and loco in the same database.  I do not relish the
idea
>>of constantly having to input or change data in two different databases.
In
>>fact the thought of this is a major turnoff.
>
>Neither would I.  That's why ProTrak keeps maintenance records, and
>inventory records of your various fleets.  For example, the program totals
>running hours on each locomotive or unit.  There are fields for "install
>date" and "last inspection date".  There is a "bad order" datafield for
>each caboose, unit and car.  Under "Transportation" in the Win version (and
>"Operations" in the DOS version) there is a menu option for printing
>current equipment maintenance requirements.
>
>ProTrak is a lot more than just "freight-forwarding".
>
> Jim
>
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>ONElist:  your connection to people who share your interests.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Jim

Thanks for the information. I will spend sometime tonight looking this over.

John DePauw
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Moir <moir5sdr@...>
To: ProTrak@onelist.com <ProTrak@onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [ProTrak] Industry spots?


>From: Jim Moir <moir5sdr@...>
>
>John DePauw wrote:
>>I've attached a small excel file that shows two of my towns with the main
>>line, sidings, interchanges and industries.
>>I don't understand how you assign numbers to the main line tracks and
>>sidings or the industries.and how they relate to each other.
>
>John's diagram shows a double track main, with crossovers, extending across
the
>page.  The zone limits of each of 3 towns (switching districts) are shown.
>There are various spurs off each main track, with customer names assigned
to
>each track.  John is 98% there.
>
>1) Spots
>
>In ProTrak, tracks have a 3 part number, a zone, a number, and if necessary
a
>spot.  This is the so-called zone-track-spot system used by the prototype,
>since at least the 1920s to number customer's tracks.  There are various
jargon
>words for this concept/system but they all apply to the same system of
>numbering track locations.
>
>The zone is the town, or switching district.  Each zone has a short code,
just
>like airports.  There is usually just one track number per track reached
from a
>switch.  Each track within a zone has a different number.  The spot is used
>only if there are several industries on a single track.
>
>This (usually) 6-digit code is a handy compact way of referring to a
precise
>point on the railroad - "HGT-36b" is much more compact than writing
>"Horsefeathers Feed and Seed, 2nd spout in on the 3 third track, in Chicago
>HeiGhTs, IL" on a switchlist.  Yes?
>
>
>2) Application
>
>Zone:  You have a town called Marble Falls.  I suggest that you use a
3-digit
>alpha for the zone, something that makes sense and is easy to remember.
For
>Marble Falls you might choose "MAR" or "MRF".  For Brisbane, how about
"BBN"?
>For your town Chicago Heights, how about "CHT" or, because it is all
Chicago,
>how about "HGT".
>
>Track numbers: I suggest that customers be assigned numbers 10 to 89.  HGT
has
>many customers, on both sides of the main tracks.  I prefer to group
numbers to
>make it easy for switching crews, but there is no hard and fast rule about
>this.  Mateson Lumber is first off the main, so I give it number 10.
Mateson
>Lumber has spot HGT-10.  Done.  Funk Forging is next, but is reached from
>another lead, so I up it to HGT-32.  Riverside Chemical is on the same lead
but
>another track: HGT-34.
>
>Now Alco and AU's Wrecking are on the same track: HGT-36, so we need a spot
for
>each.  Alco is reached first so it is: HGT36a.  AU's is next, so it could
>HGT36b, but for fun and leaving room for an additional spot at Alco, I'll
call
>AU's as HGT36c.
>
>~~~
>How about assigning odd track numbers to all the customers on one side of
the
>main, and even to the others?  National Gypsum on the south side becomes
>HGT-21. ICGF next door becomes HGT-23.  American Brake shoe is in a
different
>area on the south side, so I call it HGT-44.  And so on....
>
>~~~
>It would have been just as easy to call the tracks out in simple numerical
>order as HGT-10, HGT-11, HGT-12... HGT-17, etc.  It doesn't matter.
>
>The only thing that really matters is that the total spot for any location
be
>unique on your railroad.
>
>~~~~
>There is a 4 page explanation of ZTS in the Guide at the beginning of
Chapter
>3, Concepts for Car-Control" about p. 33.
>
>On the ProTrak website there are some scans from ATSF, MP, CR, CN car
service
>manuals which show how they each assigned spur numbers.  The website is at
><http://www.protrak.cc> - just click on the "Paperwork" heading and then
the
>example you want.  Examples found under the "Switchlists" heading show some
>parts of instructions to conductors relating to using these spur numbers.
>
>This help?  Anything else?
>
>        Jim
>
>
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>ONElist:  the best place to EXPLORE topics, SHARE ideas, and
>CONNECT to people with the same interests.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------

John DePauw wrote:
>I've attached a small excel file that shows two of my towns with the main
>line, sidings, interchanges and industries.
>I don't understand how you assign numbers to the main line tracks and
>sidings or the industries.and how they relate to each other.

John's diagram shows a double track main, with crossovers, extending across the
page.  The zone limits of each of 3 towns (switching districts) are shown.
There are various spurs off each main track, with customer names assigned to
each track.  John is 98% there.

1) Spots

In ProTrak, tracks have a 3 part number, a zone, a number, and if necessary a
spot.  This is the so-called zone-track-spot system used by the prototype,
since at least the 1920s to number customer's tracks.  There are various jargon
words for this concept/system but they all apply to the same system of
numbering track locations.

The zone is the town, or switching district.  Each zone has a short code, just
like airports.  There is usually just one track number per track reached from a
switch.  Each track within a zone has a different number.  The spot is used
only if there are several industries on a single track.

This (usually) 6-digit code is a handy compact way of referring to a precise
point on the railroad - "HGT-36b" is much more compact than writing
"Horsefeathers Feed and Seed, 2nd spout in on the 3 third track, in Chicago
HeiGhTs, IL" on a switchlist.  Yes?


2) Application

Zone:  You have a town called Marble Falls.  I suggest that you use a 3-digit
alpha for the zone, something that makes sense and is easy to remember.  For
Marble Falls you might choose "MAR" or "MRF".  For Brisbane, how about "BBN"?
For your town Chicago Heights, how about "CHT" or, because it is all Chicago,
how about "HGT".

Track numbers: I suggest that customers be assigned numbers 10 to 89.  HGT has
many customers, on both sides of the main tracks.  I prefer to group numbers to
make it easy for switching crews, but there is no hard and fast rule about
this.  Mateson Lumber is first off the main, so I give it number 10.  Mateson
Lumber has spot HGT-10.  Done.  Funk Forging is next, but is reached from
another lead, so I up it to HGT-32.  Riverside Chemical is on the same lead but
another track: HGT-34.

Now Alco and AU's Wrecking are on the same track: HGT-36, so we need a spot for
each.  Alco is reached first so it is: HGT36a.  AU's is next, so it could
HGT36b, but for fun and leaving room for an additional spot at Alco, I'll call
AU's as HGT36c.

~~~
How about assigning odd track numbers to all the customers on one side of the
main, and even to the others?  National Gypsum on the south side becomes
HGT-21. ICGF next door becomes HGT-23.  American Brake shoe is in a different
area on the south side, so I call it HGT-44.  And so on....

~~~
It would have been just as easy to call the tracks out in simple numerical
order as HGT-10, HGT-11, HGT-12... HGT-17, etc.  It doesn't matter.

The only thing that really matters is that the total spot for any location be
unique on your railroad.

~~~~
There is a 4 page explanation of ZTS in the Guide at the beginning of Chapter
3, Concepts for Car-Control" about p. 33.

On the ProTrak website there are some scans from ATSF, MP, CR, CN car service
manuals which show how they each assigned spur numbers.  The website is at
<http://www.protrak.cc> - just click on the "Paperwork" heading and then the
example you want.  Examples found under the "Switchlists" heading show some
parts of instructions to conductors relating to using these spur numbers.

This help?  Anything else?

         Jim

To all:

Attachments are not allowed on tje list.

Please send these direct to Jim at moir5sdr@...

A note and followup to the list would be appreciated.

Howard
ProTrak list owner

D & L Sand wrote:
>
> From: "D & L Sand" <sandsys@...>
>
> Unfortunately, this came through with no attachment.  I would like to see
> the answer as I'm getting ready to set up ProTrak for our new railroad so
> anything that makes it easier would be appreciated.  Thanks.
>
> Linda Sand
>
>

Unfortunately, this came through with no attachment.  I would like to see
the answer as I'm getting ready to set up ProTrak for our new railroad so
anything that makes it easier would be appreciated.  Thanks.

Linda Sand

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John DePauw [mailto:johnd@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 10:21 AM
> To: ProTrak@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: [ProTrak] Industry spots?
>
>
> From: "John DePauw" <johnd@...>
>
> Jim
>
> I've attached a small excel file that shows two of my towns with the main
> line, sidings, interchanges and industries.
>
> I don't understand how you assign numbers to the main line tracks and
> sidings or the industries.and how they relate to each other.
>
> If you could give me a couple of examples on the diagram. Remove what ever
> you have to, to keep it clear.
>
> Thanks
>
> John DePauw
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim/Natalie Moir <moir5sdr@...>
> To: ProTrak@onelist.com <ProTrak@onelist.com>
> Date: Monday, August 16, 1999 1:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [ProTrak] Industry spots?
>
>
> >From: Jim/Natalie Moir <moir5sdr@...>
> >
> >Hi John,
> >
> >>I had a problem with understanding the setting up of the industries
> numbers
> >>along with the number that goes with the track work.
> >
> >What were the problems here?  Could you be a bit more specific?
> >
> >BTW, John didn't mention it but his EJ&E railroad is the reason why the
> >limit on the number of staging tracks went from "50" up to "80" 2 years
> ago.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> >
> >You can WIN $100 to Amazon.com!
> >If you join ONElist’s FRIENDS & FAMILY program.  For details, go to
> >http://www.onelist.com/info/onereachsplash3.html
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> [Attachments have been removed from this message]
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> Show your ONElist SPIRIT!
> http://www.onelist.com/store/tshirts.html
> With a new ONElist SHIRT available through our website.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Jim

I've attached a small excel file that shows two of my towns with the main
line, sidings, interchanges and industries.

I don't understand how you assign numbers to the main line tracks and
sidings or the industries.and how they relate to each other.

If you could give me a couple of examples on the diagram. Remove what ever
you have to, to keep it clear.

Thanks

John DePauw
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim/Natalie Moir <moir5sdr@...>
To: ProTrak@onelist.com <ProTrak@onelist.com>
Date: Monday, August 16, 1999 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [ProTrak] Industry spots?


>From: Jim/Natalie Moir <moir5sdr@...>
>
>Hi John,
>
>>I had a problem with understanding the setting up of the industries
numbers
>>along with the number that goes with the track work.
>
>What were the problems here?  Could you be a bit more specific?
>
>BTW, John didn't mention it but his EJ&E railroad is the reason why the
>limit on the number of staging tracks went from "50" up to "80" 2 years
ago.
>
> Jim
>
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>You can WIN $100 to Amazon.com!
>If you join ONElist’s FRIENDS & FAMILY program.  For details, go to
>http://www.onelist.com/info/onereachsplash3.html
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dennis Storzek asked:

>I'm wondering just how much computing horsepower ProTrack takes; what was
>Jim's recommendation for the DOS version, how have the rest of you found
>this works out in the real world, and what does Jim anticipate the system
>needs of the Windows version to be?

1) DOS/Win3.1

The original DOS version was designed to run in the lower 640K of memory,
so that it would run on any _quality_ 286/386/486 running DOS 3.3.  A good
quality machine was needed, something not always done.  Versions after
ProTrak 3.0 required that DOS be set in "upper memory" - which was usual
anyways when running DOS 6.  I recommended a 386/33 for a period but later
changed this to a 486/50.  The speed issue was speed of 'yardsorting'
during an operating session.  The car-loading routine of the DOS version
actually has "waits" in it so you could see, on screen, what is happening
to each customer.  Hard disk space was 5 megs.  We recommended a dot matrix
printer, for very good railroading reasons, a recommendation which just
about everyone ignored.  The lasers/inkjet printing in the DOS version was
never satisfactory.


~~~~
2) Windows98

As Max said the Win98 version will run in any computer that will run
Windows98.  An inkjet is recommended.

~~~~
In spite of the fact that I am using an HP722 inkjet, I still suggest a
dot-matrix printer to get that railroady 9-pin look on your switchlists and
to provide the noisy clatter of the teletype machine.  You might think
about that for the second printer near a yard.


~~~~
3) Other considerations

What the WIN98 version wants/needs depends on how much of ProTrak you are
using.  We have signaling, several devices, and drive-by-wire coming down
the pipe.

The only oddball requirement that I can think of is that with signaling (1
port), working weighscales (perhaps a 2nd port), distributed keypads (2nd
or 3rd port), and command control drivers (3rd or 4th port), you may want
additional serial ports.  My machine has 4, provided on a board I got from
Egghead for something like $70.  This board also had a port for a second
printer.  So, if you buy a computer to run ProTrak, make sure it has slots
for an add-in board, or boards.

As for speed, if you will using just the present "management" version, then
a Pentium75 (such as my old laptop running Win95) will work just fine for
the initial Windows release.   The "continuous session" version of ProTrak,
which loads cars on the fly during the session, will most likely want more
ummmpphh.

If you will be using the signaling software, and our signaling
microprocessor-based databus, then you will want a faster machine.  (The
issue here is dropping a signal to red fast enough to meet the 13 ft rule.
Computer speed is almost all of the issue as Dr Mike has made a blazing
fast databus.)

If, some months down the road, you also intend using the command-control
drive-by-wire then you will want an even faster machine, such as the common
everyday garden variety 450Mhz monster your kid just got for back-to-school.

	 Jim

Kathe Robin wrote:
>
> From: Kathe Robin <kathe@...>
>
> I'm sure Jim will reply to your question directly re:computer horsepower
  I expect the Windows version will run
> on any machine capable of running Windows.

Make that windows 95 for later.  Not windows 3.1.

I'm sure Jim will reply to your question directly re:computer horsepower
required for PT.  However in my testing, evaluation and building my own
RR operationally, I've used everything from an old 80386 laptop to a
Pentium II 450 Mhz.  They all worked just fine.  Calculating all of the
car assignments/locations/movements is obviously fast on a faster
machine, but even with 200-300 cars it only takes a minute or so on the
slowest of machines.  Any reasonable piece of hardware w/functional hard
disk made later than about 1990 will work just fine.  Memory
requirements are not high either.  I expect the Windows version will run
on any machine capable of running Windows.

Max
-------------------------------------------------------
email:   m_robin@...

smail:   Max S. Robin, P.E.
          Cheat River Engineering Inc.
          23 Richwood Place / P. O. Box 289
          Denville, NJ 07834 - 0289

voice:   973 - 627 - 5895 or 5460

fax:     973 - 627 - 5460
-------------------------------------------------------

Hi,

I'm Dennis Storzek, I've been a model railroader for close to forty years
now, and am finally finding time to build a basement filling layout,
although slowly.

I'm wondering just how much computing horsepower ProTrack takes; what was
Jim's recommendation for the DOS version, how have the rest of you found
this works out in the real world, and what does Jim anticipate the system
needs of the Windows version to be?

Dennis Storzek
Big Rock, IL

Terry,

>Count me as another one who is interested in easy file conversions.  At
>present I have all my car (and loco) data in Filemaker Pro and my active
>roster is also above 400 cars.  While I can export to Excel Ok to convert,
>this is not a one time event as I am building new cars and upgrading the
>fleet as I go and I expect that will never end. I also keep maintenance
>records on each car and loco in the same database.  I do not relish the idea
>of constantly having to input or change data in two different databases.  In
>fact the thought of this is a major turnoff.

Neither would I.  That's why ProTrak keeps maintenance records, and
inventory records of your various fleets.  For example, the program totals
running hours on each locomotive or unit.  There are fields for "install
date" and "last inspection date".  There is a "bad order" datafield for
each caboose, unit and car.  Under "Transportation" in the Win version (and
"Operations" in the DOS version) there is a menu option for printing
current equipment maintenance requirements.

ProTrak is a lot more than just "freight-forwarding".

	 Jim

Jim

Count me as another one who is interested in easy file conversions.  At
present I have all my car (and loco) data in Filemaker Pro and my active
roster is also above 400 cars.  While I can export to Excel Ok to convert,
this is not a one time event as I am building new cars and upgrading the
fleet as I go and I expect that will never end. I also keep maintenance
records on each car and loco in the same database.  I do not relish the idea
of constantly having to input or change data in two different databases.  In
fact the thought of this is a major turnoff.


Terry N. Taylor
San Luis Obispo - Proposed Location of the Pacific Coast Region NMRA  May
2001 Convention
SLOMRC Secretary & Newsletter Editor

(Modeling the Santa Fe from Riverbank to Stockton in the Transition Era)
575 Bassi Drive
San Luis Obispo, CA  93405-8039

(805) 595-9535  or jtntaylor@...



-----Original Message-----
From: Jim/Natalie Moir <moir5sdr@...>
To: ProTrak@onelist.com <ProTrak@onelist.com>
Date: Monday, August 16, 1999 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: [ProTrak] file conversions


>From: Jim/Natalie Moir <moir5sdr@...>
>
>Hi Elliot,
>
>> I am looking foward to the Excel import utility promised for last
December
>>(hint, hint).  This would make my life much easier (400+ freight cars
>>already entered in my pre-existing database).
>
>The car data in ProTrak is in 3 separate files and separating it all out
>from "1" into "3" gets a bit hairy.  As well, in 3+ years, at most only 5
>people/clubs have asked me to do this and actually sent their data.  And
>each had the data entered in Excel in totally different ways.
>
>So all-in-all it is easier if you sent me your car data in Excel 4.0 or 97
>and let me massage it into ProTrak "car format".  Turnaround is a few days,
>at most.  You could have it back by Thursday.
>
> Jim
>
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>ONElist:  home to the world's liveliest email communities.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Hi John,

>I had a problem with understanding the setting up of the industries numbers
>along with the number that goes with the track work.

What were the problems here?  Could you be a bit more specific?

BTW, John didn't mention it but his EJ&E railroad is the reason why the
limit on the number of staging tracks went from "50" up to "80" 2 years ago.

	 Jim

Elliot,

> Question: What locomotive-specific data is currently available for steam
>engines?  I have data for LIRR (PRR) H10s (2-8-0) and G5s (4-6-0) if anyone
>is interested.

As mentioned earlier Max Robin has sent me complete, and I mean complete,
data for geared steam locomotives.  Beyond that I have not gone out of my
way to collect additional steam locomotive locomotive data.

The current s/w has a routine for calculating horsepower, or TE given
boiler pressure, stroke, piston diameter and wheel diameter.  Or stroke,
given TE; or whatever one piece of data is missing.  Thank Max for
insisting on that change.

As well we published, in one of the newsletters, the software
data-structure for the on-line steam-engine on-line help/data file - if
some one wanted to write a program to make up their own version of that file.

In addition to the 5 bits of data listed above, the steam locomotive data
will be wanting data on water capacity and coal/oil capacity for use in the
drive-by-wire routines that should be out later this year.  These calculate
water/fuel consumption "as you go" during the session.

	 Jim

Hi Elliot,

> I am looking foward to the Excel import utility promised for last December
>(hint, hint).  This would make my life much easier (400+ freight cars
>already entered in my pre-existing database).

The car data in ProTrak is in 3 separate files and separating it all out
from "1" into "3" gets a bit hairy.  As well, in 3+ years, at most only 5
people/clubs have asked me to do this and actually sent their data.  And
each had the data entered in Excel in totally different ways.

So all-in-all it is easier if you sent me your car data in Excel 4.0 or 97
and let me massage it into ProTrak "car format".  Turnaround is a few days,
at most.  You could have it back by Thursday.

	 Jim

Hi

John DePauw here

I model the EJ&E in 1973 and most of the interchange railroads.

I have been a model railroader since the late 50's. With a short break to
get married and have kids and all of the stuff that's goes along with that.

I'm the NCR regional coordinator of the OPSIG.

I have a multi level layout in a 1800 Square foot basement. We have been in
operations since January of this year. The railroad operates with Car Cards
at this time. We have around 800 cars on the layout at the present time. The
Gary yard is about to go on line and that will take another 600 cars to
populate the yard and the associated destinations.

I purchased the Protrak system 1n 1995 but have not taken the time to get
the system up and running. due to layout construction. The existing waybills
came from the old layout.  The question is do I take the time to make out
600 more car cards or work on Pro trak.

I had a problem with understanding the setting up of the industries numbers
along with the number that goes with the track work. I had planned to talk
with Jim at a couple of the national  but he has not attended one since
Atlanta.

The CD would work ok.

By the way there are pictures of my layout  on the EJ&E web site at
http://eje.railfan.net. go to the photo section and go about have way down.

John DePauw

In reply to some previous messages:

	 CD Rom format would be excellent.

	 My only experience with Ship-It is with their download sample.  It seems
to me to be a simplified approach to traffic management.  Simplified not
meaning easier, but rather less detailed (less realistic?).

	 I am looking foward to the Excel import utility promised for last December
(hint, hint).  This would make my life much easier (400+ freight cars
already entered in my pre-existing database).

	 Question: What locomotive-specific data is currently available for steam
engines?  I have data for LIRR (PRR) H10s (2-8-0) and G5s (4-6-0) if anyone
is interested.

Elliot

To get the intros out of the way, I am Terry N. Taylor out on the west
coast.  I have been model railroading off and on since the early 1960s but
due to many moves in the military have only gotten into serious layout
construction recently.  My HO scale three-tiered layout (counting the
staging/storage level) is under construction and set in 1953.  The bottom
level is now in and we will be starting on the Valley level soon.

I am looking forward to having a windows 98 version and CD would be nice
especially for the extra files.


Terry N. Taylor
San Luis Obispo - Proposed Location of the Pacific Coast Region NMRA  May
2001 Convention
SLOMRC Secretary & Newsletter Editor

(Modeling the Santa Fe from Riverbank to Stockton in the Transition Era)
575 Bassi Drive
San Luis Obispo, CA  93405-8039

(805) 595-9535  or jtntaylor@...


-----Original Message-----
From: Howard R. Garner <hrgarner@...>
To: protrak@onelist.com <protrak@onelist.com>
Date: Saturday, August 14, 1999 4:10 PM
Subject: [ProTrak] into from the list owner
>
>First, Jim has mentioned that the Windows 98 release of ProTrak might be
>on cd-rom.  Would this be a problem?
>
>With a cd-rom the various industry data bases could be included.
>Other possibilities would to include some date specific Official Guide
>files and UMLER files.  This information would have to be done by
>volunteers and submitted.  Some may already be available.
>
>Howard
>stuck in 1905

One major difference that made me buy ProTrak is how a shipper gets its
orders to load a car.

In ShipIt! all shippers order empties was soon as they ship a car load
of product.  If the car takes only a day to load and only ships once a
week, that loaded car then sits at the industry.  This occupies space
that cound be used by other incoming or ouotgoing shipments.

ProTrak only sends the empty when there is an order for a load to be
shipped.

To me this is important.

Howard
Stuck in 1905


keay@... wrote:
>
> From: keay@...
>
> Hi
>
> I am considering purchasing ProTrak for my layout and have
> been talking with Jim quite a bit in the past week.
> Can I ask for a few brief comments on how people who have
> been using ProTrak find it?  Has anyone tried ShipIt and if so
> how would you rate the two programs?  I have seen the comparison
> page on the ProTrak web site but I would like to have
> some comments from people who have actually used ProTrak.
>
> thanks
>
> Brian
>
> Model Railroad Site:
> www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~keay/wlxhist.html
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> Transfer your big list to ONElist and earn $500!
> For program details, go to
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>
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CD ROM would be fine with me.

Linda Sand

For those who are not familiar with this aspect of ProTrak, the s/w records
and calculates fuel consumption _as it occurs_ during the operating
session, and then automatically orders that total amount of fuel for
delivery to your _main_ engine terminal.

You have a great deal of control on how much fuel is being consumed.  This
is done by:
	 1) using the efficient units/locomotives for your era;
	 2) by keeping the trains moving (a dispatching issue);
	 3) reducing train-miles (annul short trains and combine trains, only call
extras when the ton-miles/car positioning will warrant the cost);
	 4) reducing the size of a consist, by using helpers on limiting grades.
You can control almost 50% (half) of the fuel consumption.


Presently (in ProTrak DOS Version 4.3c2) waybills #1, and #18 are used for
this purpose.  Waybill #1 is used for whatever fuel is used the most
_during the previous session_, and waybill#18 is used for whatever fuel is
used 2nd most.  (The use of waybill #18 started, with Version 4 (June
1997), when steam engines were more directly supported.)


As always there are several possible extensions.
	 1) Recognize and order other possible fuels:  There are 3 (post 1880?):
"steam oil", "steam coal" and "diesel oil" of which in the DOS version only
two are _ordered_.  All of these three are calculated/recorded, but only 2
presently are ordered.  All 3 are ordered in the Win98 version, using
reserved Waybill #19. (If you are using Waybill#19 please move that data.)

	 2) Recognize minor engine terminals:  This presents some choices, as do
_you_, on your railroad, want the fuel directed to the major terminal
first, and then re-loaded to the minor terminal(s), or should the fuel go
directly to the minor terminal?

The s/w can be programmed to do this either way automatically, and/or I can
make you make a decision <g>.  Please let me know how you want this done.

	 3) Variable carkinds: Howard, and others, have asked that I allow other
car types to be used for fuel.  This has been done.  The liquid fuel can
still only be loaded in "T111" or "T103" or their carkind equivalent "TM",
or any tank with "fuel" and the proper STCC in the car-use restriction
datafield.

(In the DOS version, the fuel car kind can be changed between sessions, and
it will be loaded that way, but later in the update the DOS version
switches the coal fuel carkind back to an HM - which when you check
waybill#1 is what shows up.  This has been changed in the Win98 version).


There are other possible interactions.  For example, Max Robin has supplied
me with detailed data about Shays, Heislers and some of this data has
already made it into ProTrak.  This data allows for locomotive-specific
calculation of fuel consumption.  We also have specific data on fuel
consumption for diesels, by rear and type, and the era-averages already is
used, while the unit-specific data is used in the fly-by-wire version.

Hopes this helps.  If you want further info about using these
automatic-fuel waybills please just shout.  Please let me know how, or if,
you want minor fuel terminals handled.

	 Jim

Jim Moir/ProTrak <http://www.protrak.cc>

Answering a question about "BEA" and the numbers in that file....

There is a database of "cities and towns" on ProTrak.  This on-line
database simply is a resource for copying data in making up load movement
orders (Bills Of Lading, or in model termimology - "waybills").

The database we use is the same one the actual railroads use, and is used
in the waybill AAR waybill analysis, and that is the federal government's
Business Economic Area list.  The list starts at the upper right (Maine)
and goes down the east coast, moves in one "layer" towards the west, and
then moves up through Knoxville and West Virginia) to the Great Lakes; and
so on up and down across the country.  The provinces of Canada are each a
business area, to the US government and are tagged on at the end of the
list.  Each BEA has a number.

There can be more than one city in a BEA, and all cities/towns/counties in
the same BEA have the same number.

~~~
In as much as this government logic was not obvious to all, an alphabetic
listing of the same data was added to ProTrak.

In addition, every time you type in data about a station name, or industry
town name not in _your_ BEA, ProTrak offers to add this new data to your
BEA.  The s/w attempts to add the state, too.  Because this file can get
disorganized over time, last fall, at request, we added a menu choice where
you can change data in this file.  This is the "B" key (in version 4.3c) at
"Traffic, Customers, Edit <B>EA".

You select this listing by state, or see the entire listing.

The base file is "Ursa.Cat".  The alphabetic version is "UrsaA.Cat".

~~~
This file should not be confused with the "Designated Station Names and
Numbers" that every railroad is required to publish.  These lists assign a
4-digit number to every named station on the railroad.

Stations are numbered "east" to west".  ProTrak follows this standard.

Some railroads add subdivision milepost distances to the listing, but by
and large these are boring listings of only station and number. In total,
over North America, these designated stations number well into the
100,000s.  The numbers are used for rating and car-accounting purposes.

This list for your railroad, in ProTrak, is the list of stations on the
main segment and on each of the other-subdivisions.   You can have up to
550 named/numbered stations on your railroad - in the DOS version.

~~~
It was intended to also use the BEA number to sort/block cars going into
staging.  This is NOT applied.... yet.

	 Jim

Jim Moir/ProTrak <http://www.protrak.cc>

Anssering a question about the "sand waybill" ....

For those who may not be familiar with this, how much traction sand is used
by locomotives on your railroad is automatically measured/calculated by
ProTrak.  The total sand is used is shown in waybill#2 and that sand is
from time-to-time sent to your main engine terminal.

In the beginning, as ProTrak was originally oriented to post-1960
railroading, the sand was delivered in LOs.  As well, sand was ordered
every session, regardless of how little was used on the railroad.

This was changed about Ver3.3 (fall 1996) or so.  Presently, in the DOS
version, you change the carkind for waybill#2 to any car kind, but the
'update' changes the carkind back to:
	 1) XM if your railroad is 1970 and earlier, and you set this carkind to XM;
	 2) if this is not set at "XM" and you are operating after 1955, LO is used;
	 3) otherwise, the default "HM" is assigned, AND a liveload weighing 2oz is
'put' in the sand car.

At the same time (fall 1996), the "sand" routine was changed to prevent
sending very small shipments of sand.  Bill Gruber first noticed this.
ProTrak now "adds up" sand until at least a 10-ton shipment can be made,
_or_ 10 sessions have gone by.

By comparison, a typical hilly model railroad, with train lengths of 15
cars or more, moving 200 to 300 cars per session, usually will consume
about 40 tons of sand per session.  Much more if for example the trains are
stopped by the DS at every passing siding, and much less if the locomotives
are lightly loaded.

Sand use on your railroad is determined by what actually happens during an
operating session on your railroad.

~~~~
You can ship traction sand using the regular waybills and car-orders, if
the automatic sand routines do not generate enough traffic for your taste.

Messing with waybill#2 by manually changing the "ordered weight" up to say
40 tons (from, say, 1.1 ton) is not recommended.

~~~~
I haven't done this in the Win version, for this issue, but I can see that
it could be useful if I brought out these restrictions/lockouts/overrides
onto a menu so that you could see exactly why ProTrak chooses certain
carkinds for sand.

Anything else?

	 Jim

Hi

I am considering purchasing ProTrak for my layout and have
been talking with Jim quite a bit in the past week.
Can I ask for a few brief comments on how people who have
been using ProTrak find it?  Has anyone tried ShipIt and if so
how would you rate the two programs?  I have seen the comparison
page on the ProTrak web site but I would like to have
some comments from people who have actually used ProTrak.

thanks

Brian

Model Railroad Site:
www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~keay/wlxhist.html

Thanks to all who have joined the list.

This list was started after the non-clinic the Jim Moir was to have
presented at the NMRA convention in St Paul.  About a dozen of us sat
around and discussed ProTrak and how it was working for us.  In order to
continue an exchange of ideas, I volunteered to start this mailing list
on onelist.

I am Howard R Garner, down in Pickens SC.  My railroad connections are
that many of my relatives worked for the railroads and my dad was a car
inspector/repairman for the CGW and MNS in Randolph, MN.

I have been model railroading since 1964 as a serious hobby.  My present
layout is still under construction and set in 1905.

For the list:

First, Jim has mentioned that the Windows 98 release of ProTrak might be
on cd-rom.  Would this be a problem?

With a cd-rom the various industry data bases could be included.
Other possibilities would to include some date specific Official Guide
files and UMLER files.  This information would have to be done by
volunteers and submitted.  Some may already be available.

Second, what problems now exist with the dos version and what correction
would you like to see?

Let us use this as a sounding board and a method of helping others.

Howard
stuck in 1905

I have been a model railroader for over 40 years, but have never actually
worked for a railroad. I am deeply interested in traffic, having been
involved with maritime and motor transports industries, as well as
communications. I do not have an operating layout at present, but I have
been using ProTrak to work out the design for one to be built as soon as
the basement is finished.

Elliot

I have never been a professional railroader.  I have been a model railroader
only since 1987.  I got hooked on solving the puzzles involved in industrial
switching operations.  I would like to get ProTrak working for our new
railroad under construction so I can see if I'm winning the financial game
as well.

Linda Sand

As a Beta tester working closely with Jim Moir (creator of ProTrak) I'd
like to introduce myself to other users of this product.

I've been a model railroader for app. 40 years, worked for the New York
Central (and later Penn Central) in the mechanical department, have been
involved in overhauls, etc. on numerous full size steam locomotive.
Educationally my background includes several degrees in Mechanical
Engineering, several decades of software development, systems
programming and hardware/software integration, as well as extensive
network design and implementation.

My model railroad, Cheat River Coal and Lumber Company, is based on the
West Virginia Pulp & Paper lines down the Cheat & Elk River valleys,
which became part of the Western Maryland in 1928.  The model railroad
is designed for two different operational eras, 1925 and 1948.  All
operations are steam powered, with only a few rod engines.  The motive
power roster is almost entirely consists of geared engines, each
modified and redetailed to match a specific prototype, all with
completely rebuilt mechanism with MicroMo coreless motors and extensive
custom work.

Lets talk about ProTrak now!

Max
-------------------------------------------------------
email:   m_robin@...

smail:   Max S. Robin, P.E.
          Cheat River Engineering Inc.
          23 Richwood Place / P. O. Box 289
          Denville, NJ 07834 - 0289

voice:   973 - 627 - 5895 or 5460

fax:     973 - 627 - 5460
-------------------------------------------------------