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Reply Message #24288 of 29643 |
RE: [PretCosmos] A New Day

Hi Everyone,

 

I am here today to make a public statement.  This has been weighing on my mind for weeks now and while I thought I could continue to post here as a futurist, I can’t.  I am not one who is comfortable pretending to be something I’m not.  That’s why I affirmed to Duncan that if I changed positions, I would announce it. 

 

When I knew I was going to be posting here again, I seriously considered using an alias and had actually constructed one when Ed H posted about those who do that and it caused me to reconsider my actions.  Thank you, Ed.  He was right.  I would have been building a web of deception that would have served to tarnish whatever I accomplished going forward, so I elected to work in the light of day.  

 

I could have taken the route of just withdrawing slowly from the community and no one would ever know but I can’t do that either.  While the thought crossed my mind, it was never a consideration.   I owe the full preterist community an apology for things I have written against it and said.  To speak out at the time I did without fully reconciling the texts was very irresponsible and I do hope the community can forgive me for doing that.  I have great remorse over those statements.   I do plan on setting the record straight going forward and this is the first installment.

  

I really appreciate that there are those here that hold positions they are quite comfortable with and able to defend and I have examined them, but for me, I can no longer defend a futurist position.   Let me also be clear and say that if presented with sound and persuasive argument that refutes full preterism, I am captive to the texts and will adjust in light of scriptural refutation.   I know those here would adjust also.  It’s a fallacy to state that full preterism must be protected at ALL costs BUT I will add it MUST be defended until refuted and frankly, I haven’t seen that yet.   I’ve witnessed lots of claims but nothing persuasive that held up under investigation.  Not even close.

 

Years ago I remember canoeing a flooded river and we were on a broad section when all of a sudden we came up upon a thicket and couldn’t pass.  We were off course and had to back up a ways to get back into the main channel.  I see that happening with Sam.  I took the route he’s currently pursuing and it’s a dead end.  At some point he will have to back up or be content sitting beside the thicket denying he’s off course.   I’ve backed up and corrected my course.

 

Roderick’s argument for Church history is a strong argument and it did strike a chord with me but I have yet to see him make a strong exegetical argument.   I have great respect for the Church fathers and what they professed scripture to contain yet I also know that history can soon become tradition and tradition can carry on for a long time before someone challenges it.   It’s only been 500 years since the Bible was placed in the hands of the common man and with the advent of the internet, areas that were reserved solely for those who could afford an education, are now open to anyone with a search engine.

 

In teaching tennis to children I so remember Arthur Ashe saying we had never seen the world’s greatest tennis player because he could never afford to pick up a racket.  I happen to believe we have not witnessed the world’s best theological minds because they couldn’t afford an education in the languages of Hebrew and Greek and theology.  Now they have access and multiple venues to confirm what they learn.

 

I have seen some who hold that without those who are educated to teach that we can’t come to a correct understanding of the texts.  I don’t believe that.  He speaks to each of us through those texts and He is not the author of confusion.  His message was clear and concise and He established patterns for us to find our way.  Those patterns hold.   We don’t need to do gymnastics with the texts to grasp the importance of what He accomplished in a timely manner.

 

I’ve witnessed the other formers over the years and how well I know what they have experienced.  I have great empathy for them now that I’ve been there.  On the other hand, just like my experience, I find a huge lack of scriptural reason for their abandonment of the full preterist position.  I’ve seen some modifications but nothing of real substance yet.   What I have witnessed and even took part in was an attack on full preterism no matter whether there is a sound scriptural rebuttal or not.

 

Then I come to the issue of Sharon Nichol’s article “The Greening of Eschatology” where she claims Dave misrepresented Hill.  After I first saw that article, I took the time to read both arguments and did so three times.  Dave can confirm that I fired off an email to him and told him I just didn’t see what Sharon saw there.  I read Hill the same way Dave did.   I couldn’t find a public statement by Hill claiming misrepresentation, so I have no reason to believe that Hill feels he was misrepresented.  Maybe Hill does feel that way, but to me it would be incumbent on him to state that first.  Sharon made claims in her dialog with Dave that have not been substantiated yet either.  Please don’t think this is an attack on Sharon or her judgment.  It isn’t.  It’s just an observation and part of what made me draw back into study again.

 

In my posting at Preterist Blog a while back, I pulled a comment Tami made and it was misrepresented.  After I realized what I did, I drew back.  I should have spoken up sooner.   I want to extend an apology to her for that and hope she can forgive me for my actions there.

 

In regards to the comments at Preterist Archive that Mike Sullivan made upon my departure, well all I can say is I’ve done what I can to remedy that.  I’ve told Todd that it is a misrepresentation and to date it has not been removed.  I’m here to testify again that Mike should not be held up for ridicule.  His actions were quite correct and his statement to me was out of concern for me, not meant for harm.  He and I have already reconciled that issue and he’s accepted my statement of remorse over it.

 

As I’ve worked through the Ezekiel texts, dialoged with some here, I found answers.  I know some are going to be quite disappointed that I haven’t bought into their view, but I must be faithful to what I see in the texts and I do hope that dialog will continue in this area.  I’m not closed minded, but I am convinced that the full preterist position is a more accurate portrayal of those texts so I will now devote myself to defending that position.

 

I am making a call here for the formers to review their own actions and consider coming here to review the texts.  If not comfortable doing so, than I ask that the attacks stop until you can.  I’m making a call for you to go to the texts and reconcile them fully.   I don’t want you to have the regrets that I do over my failure to complete that task.  If you truly care about the people in this community and fully believe you have a valid argument than I’m asking you to present it now.

 

As far as those outside the full preterist community who think direct dialog is not necessary, and I’m talking about those who write against the view yet don’t interact publicly one on one in this community, I would like to encourage you to come here with your dialog that is if you’re not afraid of the texts.  If you want to continue to stand off and throw stones, I must say I will consider that a cowardly activity.   I would also like to challenge those scholars who revise their statements to their particular audience to stop and develop a consistent position.   I will probably address more in this area later.

  

Now, since this is so lengthy, I will stop here but I will add to this as things come to mind and that I feel I need to address.   I wanted to address more scriptural items but will do that in other posts.  I do have things I want to direct to specific individual positions.  Some I may do by phone first.  I’m leaving that option open right now for sake of brevity.

 

Thank you for hearing me out.  I have held up posting because I just wasn’t comfortable doing so without this disclosure and I needed time to put it together.  I am very relieved to get this out in the open so I can move forward in clear conscience.

 

I must say I have great affection for most on this list.  That has not changed.  If anything this experience has deepened it.  Thank you for that. 

 

Dave, thanks for being such a good friend.  You have given me all the room and time I needed for my study and have been such an encouragement there.  I so appreciate that.

 

Dorothy

 



Sat Nov 6, 2010 9:11 pm

justgracethr...
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Message #24288 of 29643 |
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Here is something from volume II of The Antichrist and the Second Coming (out next year). This is an excerpt on the New Jerusalem. I have already laid the...
mckenzdw Offline Send Email Nov 6, 2010
7:18 pm

Hi Everyone, I am here today to make a public statement. This has been weighing on my mind for weeks now and while I thought I could continue to post here as...
Dorothy
justgracethr... Offline Send Email
Nov 6, 2010
9:11 pm

Dorothy This is a very good, thought provoking email to the group. I admire your courage in coming forward. Good on you for being so open and honest about...
Karen White
eternalstran... Offline Send Email
Nov 6, 2010
10:51 pm

Yes, good on ya Dorothy! (a little Aussie lingo there)        :) Now that you're back in the cult, we'll start flattering you and manipulating your...
David Green
jer2329 Offline Send Email
Nov 6, 2010
11:12 pm

Hi Dave, Now that you're back in the cult, we'll start flattering you and manipulating your emotions. Me: Promises Promises. lol You: We'll also demand...
justgracethrufaith
justgracethr... Offline Send Email
Nov 7, 2010
12:18 am

Hi Karen, Thanks. It needed to be said and I’m never afraid to stand up and speak when I am convinced I’m wrong. The day I stop doing that won’t be a...
Dorothy
justgracethr... Offline Send Email
Nov 6, 2010
11:23 pm

Hi Dorothy, Thanks for sharing your heart. You are correct that futurists have no exegetical or consistent rebuttal against the FP position and your humility...
Healinglvs@...
healingleave... Offline Send Email
Nov 7, 2010
5:19 am

Hi Mike, I may add to this later today, but wanted to say this. I am convinced that every Christian should be faithful to what they know at the time. What I...
Dorothy
justgracethr... Offline Send Email
Nov 7, 2010
12:04 pm

Dear Dorothy, Well said. Welcome back! Love, Minna ... Dear Dorothy, Well said.  Welcome back! Love, Minna Dorothy wrote:   Hi Mike,   I may add to this...
Hill Family
oneflesh12001 Offline Send Email
Nov 7, 2010
12:27 pm

Hi Minna, What a pleasant surprise. Good to see you. It’s great to be back. Love to you too, Dorothy From: PretCosmos@yahoogroups.com...
Dorothy
justgracethr... Offline Send Email
Nov 7, 2010
12:32 pm

Dear Dorothy, Thanks. I have been here a while, but I have been hiding out due to my eye problems. (Sometimes my eyes are good, and sometime they aren't.) I...
Hill Family
oneflesh12001 Offline Send Email
Nov 7, 2010
2:06 pm

Hi Minna, I need to get ready to go to Church so I will fire you a private email when I return. I’ll also check out the book. It looks interesting. Sorry to...
Dorothy
justgracethr... Offline Send Email
Nov 7, 2010
2:31 pm

Hi Dorothy, You have the correct email for me, as I received your test, so send away when you can. I know you are probably overwhelmed right now, so hold me ...
Hill Family
oneflesh12001 Offline Send Email
Nov 7, 2010
10:00 pm

Hi Minna, Would you try responding to my private email – no need to say anything – just send it back. I want to see if it comes through. I could have a...
Dorothy
justgracethr... Offline Send Email
Nov 7, 2010
10:04 pm

Will do, Dorothy. Thanks, Minna ... Will do, Dorothy. Thanks, Minna Dorothy wrote:   Hi Minna,   Would you try responding to my private email – no need to...
Hill Family
oneflesh12001 Offline Send Email
Nov 7, 2010
10:09 pm

That would be the historicist position which holds that prophecy is being fulfilled through the march of history, i.e. the Roman Catholic Pope as the...
Edward J. Hassertt, J...
reasonbyfaith Offline Send Email
Nov 7, 2010
7:54 pm

Hi Ed, Gotta love those historicists who desire to make the Pope the anti-Christ. Hey – in my discussions with the Catholic apologist earlier this summer, he...
Dorothy
justgracethr... Offline Send Email
Nov 7, 2010
8:03 pm

Hi Ed, Miller does mention the Historicist view, but that is not what he is reporting in his two main categories. It's Preterism. I was surprised to find a...
Hill Family
oneflesh12001 Offline Send Email
Nov 7, 2010
10:06 pm

Hi Dorothy,   I'm so glad to have you back.  It was a shock for me to see you had left the in the first place.  I loved your words here and know with you...
Gloria Lombardi
glolombardi2002 Offline Send Email
Nov 7, 2010
1:47 pm

Hi Gloria, Thank you for the welcome back and all your kind words here. It’s not an easy task to step before an entire community and admit these things but...
Dorothy
justgracethr... Offline Send Email
Nov 7, 2010
2:26 pm

Hey Dorothy, Yes, one does have to be faithful to what they know at the time (and the Lord of course!). All we can do is study to show ourselves approved and ...
mckenzdw Offline Send Email Nov 7, 2010
3:43 pm

Duncan McKenzie, You said: As far as I can tell you were a Christian the whole time . . . Me: Do this one more time and I may have to hurt you. : ) You made...
Dorothy
justgracethr... Offline Send Email
Nov 7, 2010
5:55 pm

Dorothy, Wow, I was not expecting to make you cry (I will be more careful next time ;-) Glad it was a blessing. It is kind of funny, on the first page all I...
mckenzdw Offline Send Email Nov 7, 2010
7:41 pm

Hi Duncan, As I read the "do this one more time and I may have to hurt you" an initial wave of panic swept over me. My first thought was, Oh no! I called her...
Dorothy
justgracethr... Offline Send Email
Nov 7, 2010
8:11 pm

Dorothy,   You see, already your futurist trip down memory lane, you know, the love, acceptance, fitting in, being part of, wanting that love of God's people...
Gloria Lombardi
glolombardi2002 Offline Send Email
Nov 7, 2010
3:14 pm

Hi Gloria, Yes – we are all frail humans but when it comes to those who claim orthodoxy, I do recognize them as brothers and sisters and love them dearly....
Dorothy
justgracethr... Offline Send Email
Nov 7, 2010
6:00 pm

Dorothy,   How well I know what you have said here.  I too love them dearly, but they stay away from me, as though, I have the plague.  I'm also reminded...
Gloria Lombardi
glolombardi2002 Offline Send Email
Nov 8, 2010
1:02 am

Hi Gloria, Yes – there are some who will treat you like you have a plague. I know a few of those – or did is probably a more accurate statement. The rest...
Dorothy
justgracethr... Offline Send Email
Nov 8, 2010
1:55 am

Dorothy,   Thanks for this post to our conversation.  I do attend church every Sunday.  I'm blessed with a Pastor who doesn't talk or teach much on Last...
Gloria Lombardi
glolombardi2002 Offline Send Email
Nov 8, 2010
2:41 am

Hi Gloria, You may want to skip purchasing it since there is nothing in it we haven't already heard, but the next time you are in Walmart, you may want to find...
Hill Family
oneflesh12001 Offline Send Email
Nov 7, 2010
10:02 pm
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