Hi Yong Peng, Nina and group,

Did you get an answer about niite? It almost looks like a locative absolute,
though then I'd expect tasmi.m niite or similar.

Tr: When he was led to the place of execution by the guards, who had bound him
tightly...

In that first clause the agent (kattaa) is the guards (raajapurisehi) which
differs from the agent of the rest of the sentence, the woman (itthi). So
locative absolute would be the right choice. The mystery is that locative
absolutes are supposed to contain a noun (or pronoun) & a participle, but here
we just have the participle.

(I'm used to seeing locative absolutes with just the participle in the case of
vutte, such as "xxx xxx xxx" ti vutte: 'when "xxx xxx xxx" was said".  But there
you can consider the nominalised iti-phrase to be in the locative, since an iti
phrase can be read as being in any case, even though the case is not marked with
an ending.)

Again, this is just a quick guess. And as Nina pointed out, I'm at my morning
coffee (still waiting for it to take proper effect) :-)

Hope this helps,

/Rett


>
>
>Raajapurisehi ta.m gaa.lha.m bandhitvaa aaghaatana.m niite

When he was led to the place of execution by the guards, who had bound him
tightly,...

>saa itthii
>ta.m tathaa niiyamaana.m disvaa sa~njaanitvaa

that woman, seeing him thus being led and recognizing him...

>kampamaanahadayaa muhuttena ra~n~no santika.m gantvaa vanditvaa deva eso na
coro aagantuko mu~ncatheta.m devaati aaha.
>by guards / him / tightly / having bound / place of execution / ??? /
>that / woman / him / there / being led / having seen / having
>recognised / trembling-from heart / in a moment / of king / in the
>presence of / having gone / having saluted / lord / this / not /
>thief / foreigner / let...release-him / lord / said

Dear Pali Group,

I noticed that the digitalised Dictionary of Pali Proper Names (DPPN)
available from Metta Lanka, etc, does not have diacritcs except in the
case of vowels. This reduces the value of the work a lot.
Would anyone know who originally digitalised it? Maybe the digitaliser
originally put in the diacritics while formatting it in Word or so, but
then left them out in HTML. If these files still exist then they could
be used for making new HTMLS or some preferably some different kind of
searchable dictionary similar to the searchable versions of
Buddhadatta's Pali English Dictionary.
It is possible to use diacricts in HTML judging from the online Pali
English Dictionary.
If the original files with all diacritics don't exist (anymore) then is
there maybe someone who is interested to add them?

Yours,
                Bh. Nyanatusita

Dear Ole and Rett,
many thanks for your kind help,
Nina.
op 31-08-2005 22:17 schreef Ole Holten Pind op oleholtenpind@...:

> There really is no problem. The only problem is one of punctuation. Read:
> yajjeta.m mocetum icchasi tassagghanaka.m dhana.m datvaa  muñcaapehiiti, "If
> you want him to become free, cause him to become free by paying money equal
> to him in value."

Dear Frank and Stephen Hodge,

Regarding the ``monks'' on the roller-coaster: I think that this picture
is either from the Go West cigarette brand advertisement campaign held
in Germany a couple of years ago, which featured models dressed up as
Buddhist monks doing all sorts of wild things like this, or it could be
a picture from some Chinese Kungfu movie with Kungfu ``monks'' of the
famous Shaolin Kungfu (or is it Karate?) monastery. Maybe ask Tricycle
where they got the picture from.
Yours,
                Nyanatusita

Dear Nina and friends
I appreciaye your respond,
The point of death, or birth, in regard to taking the holy life,
'brahmacariya' and indeed the practice, is attachments.

  the eight fold path as successive stages, implies the addoption of
compassion and renounciation as right intention
'sama sankapo'-  from the beginning of the path.

and certainly as a direct, unavoidable consequence of right view
'sama ditthi pahoti sama sankapo', I think it is M.N. 117.
not enough has been said about it, unfortunately...

now is there a connection: pahoti- pahana... probbably not,
but letting go, as a cause...

Bhikkhu Jothiko






--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@x> wrote:
> Venerable Bhante,
> I thank you for your post. I did not follow the thread before this,
but I
> appreciate the way you write about your life story, in the way of
Dhamma.
> Also your life as a bhikkhu, renunciation as a kind of death, being
> homeless, outside of society. About the burden.
> I also read in the Commentary that becoming a bhikkhu is like a new
birth.
> With appreciation and respect,
> Nina.
> op 24-08-2005 15:04 schreef jothiko op jothiko@y...:
>
> > Self as memories, accumulated experience, familiar, recognized,
> > proved
> > `Educated' being, physical-mental phenomena, the `story',
> > And even that misled, mostly fabricated, glossed.
> >
> > How does one answer that?
> > Born of sankharas, there was so much ignorance …

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Hugo <eklektik@g...> wrote:
> Hello Robert and Frank,
>
> On 8/30/05, frank <frank@4...> wrote:
> > insecurity, whereas the skillful Satanist was nonplussed, took it
in stride
> > and simply responded by saying that if 616 is adopted as the new
standard,
> > then that's what they'll use because they clearly comprehend the
purpose of
> > 616 and realize the label is just a label, and not inherently
significant.
>
> I can't remember any more details above of the following event, but
> somebody asked the Dalai Lama what would happen if scientists proved
> wrong some Buddhist beliefs, he replied "we would stop believing
those
> beliefs".
>
> mmmm......I can see it now, the above is a proof that Buddhist and
> Satanists are a team!! :-)
>
> --
> Hugo

sure, add that to the swastika, to the ariyan as the 'super man',
simply forgeting what Buddha's teaching is all about.

but even asian buddhists, uninformed, make that mistake.
recently in the inaugural meeting of the australian sangha
association, in Sidney, chao khun SAMAI, the senior thai monk
in Australia, has expressed his admiration for Hitler.
(Hi, dear moderator - try not to cut it out...)
so the mistake is not uncommon.
'my kinsmen shaddow keeps me cool' the Buddha said.
it is easily interpreted as a recourse to shallow nationalism.
and that's too is easy to explain, when you combine military-like
organisation and ignorance rhese things crop up.
check out Brian Victoria's books about 'zen in war',
the chilling night mare of commpassionless buddhism.
but back to the subject of the thread, and one that should be of the
site,
and buddhism as our way of life:a real practice, with a heart.

seems to me that a large misinterpretations of the teachings
were part of the problem, beside romantic stupidity and disregard for
the indian way of life as the real context, there was, and probbably
is still, a simple lack of wisdom, which, as a buddhist reading, is
part and parcel of goodness.
p.s.
'Lucifer' is the holder of light,
when the 'light is seen', Mara, 'the dark one' is also seen...

                     Bhikkhu Jothiko

Hi Rett,
I also thought of an absolute case and was looking for a noun.
Nina.
op 01-09-2005 09:01 schreef rett op rett@...:

> Did you get an answer about niite? It almost looks like a locative absolute,
> though then I'd expect tasmi.m niite or similar.
>
> Tr: When he was led to the place of execution by the guards, who had bound him
> tightly...
>
> In that first clause the agent (kattaa) is the guards (raajapurisehi) which
> differs from the agent of the rest of the sentence, the woman (itthi). So
> locative absolute would be the right choice. The mystery is that locative
> absolutes are supposed to contain a noun (or pronoun) & a participle, but here
> we just have the participle.

Hello,
This is the first part of exercise 6 which will be mainly focusing on
past tense of verbs which conjugate like paca and paala.
With metta,
Florent


1. Munayo mañcesu nisiidi.msu.
    monks / [on] beds / sat
    The monks sat on the beds.

2. Aha.m diipamhi acari.m.
    I / [on] island / walked
    I walked on the island.

3. Coraa gahapatino nidhi.m coresu.m.
    thieves / [of] householder / hidden treasure / stole
    The thieves stole the hidden treasure of the householder.

4. Maya.m bhuupatino asi.m olokayimha.
    we / [of] king / sword / looked at
    We looked at the king's sword.

5. Tva.m atithino odana.m adado.
    you / [to] guest / food / gave
    You gave the food to the guest.

6. Adhipati vaa.nijamhaa ma.nayo ki.ni.
    leader / [from] merchant / gems / bought
    The leader bought gems from the merchant.

7. Pati kassaka.m viihii.m yaaci.
    husband / farmer / paddy / begged
    The husband begged the farmer for paddy.

8. Isayo kaviina.m dhamma.m desesu.m.
    sages / [to] poets / doctrine / preached
    The sages preached the doctrine to the poets.

9. Kapayo girimhaa rukkha.m dhaavi.msu.
    monkeys / [from] mountain / [to] tree / ran
    The monkeys ran from the mountain to the tree.

10.Vaa.nijaa udadhimhi gacchi.msu.
    merchants / [on] ocean / went
    The merchants went on the ocean.

Dear Nina, Ole, Rett and friends,

thanks. I have been reading 'icchasi' as 'icchi', thereby confusing
myself. The punctuation is tricky too, and I tend to trust them too
much.


metta,
Yong Peng.

Dear Nina, Rett and friends,

thanks again. It has never occurred to me it is a locative absolute.

I have made the necessary corrections, and the full solution is now
online: http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/palidd/paliload.php?page=dx2


metta,
Yong Peng.

Dear Alan and friends,

just a couple of questions.

1. Is vimuccati of the first conjugation?

2. Do you meant eva.m to be indicative, or indeclinable?

Thank you.


metta,
Yong Peng.



--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, alanmcclure3 wrote:

vimutto tathaagato
vimutto [vi+muc/pp/nom/sg] freed

te ca me eva.m pu.t.thaa aamaa ti vadanti
eva.m [ind/adv] thus

Hello Yong Peng,

Sorry about that.

eva.m [indec/adv] thus

and

vimutto [vi+muc II/pp/nom/sg] freed

Though this seems tricky because the passive conjugation of "muc" is III
(muccati) form with active being II (mu~ncati) form, so I guess we should
stick with the II form in describing a past participle?  I'm open to
suggestions.

Here is what the  PED has to say:

"I. Forms. The 2 bases mu~nc° & mucc° are differentiated in such a way, that
mu~nc° is the active base, and mucc° the passive. There are however cases
where the active forms (muñc°) are used for the passive ones (mucc°), which
may be due simply to a misspelling, ~nc & cc being very similar"

Metta,

Alan


> 1. Is vimuccati of the first conjugation?
>
> 2. Do you meant eva.m to be indicative, or indeclinable?
>
>
>
>

Hello all,

In the phrase:

jaraamara.nassa ce bhikkhu nibbidaaya viraagaaya nirodhaaya pa.tipanno hoti,
`dhammaanudhammappa.tipanno bhikkhuu'ti ala.m vacanaaya.

Would "dhammaanudhammappa.tipanno " be a tappurisa or a bahubbiihi?  I'm
inclined to say the latter since adjectives normally preceed the the noun
and because bahubbiihi compounds can normally can be translated as
"[noun]who is [compound here]" if I understand Warder correctly.  Can anyone
affirm that this is indeed a bahubbiihi?

Metta,

Alan

It is a determinative compound hence a tatpurusa, if anything. pa.tipanno is
constructed with dhammaanudhamma.

Best,

Ole Pind

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Alan
McClure
Sendt: 2. september 2005 20:38
Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [Pali] Compound question

Hello all,

In the phrase:

jaraamara.nassa ce bhikkhu nibbidaaya viraagaaya nirodhaaya pa.tipanno hoti,

`dhammaanudhammappa.tipanno bhikkhuu'ti ala.m vacanaaya.

Would "dhammaanudhammappa.tipanno " be a tappurisa or a bahubbiihi?  I'm
inclined to say the latter since adjectives normally preceed the the noun
and because bahubbiihi compounds can normally can be translated as
"[noun]who is [compound here]" if I understand Warder correctly.  Can anyone

affirm that this is indeed a bahubbiihi?

Metta,

Alan





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Hello.

1) Is the following excerpt from Kalama Sutta a valid argument for the view
that the Buddha did not have a clear opinion upon the question of wether or
not we are reborn?

"'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done
well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the body after
death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state
of bliss.' This is the first solace found by him.

"'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of deeds
done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from hatred, free
from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' This is the second
solace found by him.

2) Are there any statements in the Tipitaka which indicates that the Buddha
did not personally consider the teachings on rebirth as valid?

Best Regards,
Chris André Stranden

Hello Ole, all,

Can you or anyone else recommend something that would more clearly explain
the difference between a tappurisa and a bahubbiihi than Warder's book then?

I have just reread the first portion on bahubbiihi compounds (in Warder) and
still can't figure out why this would be a tappurisa compound.  Since I
don't doubt your answer, then this means that I am obviously still confused.
Any direction would be appreciated.

From what I currently understand, a tappurisa acts as a noun and a
bahubbiihi as an adjective.  My gloss of the meaning of
"dhammaanudhammappa.tipanno " is the following:

`dhammaanudhamma[m-a] the Dhamma in its fullness

ppa.tipanno [pa.ti+pad III/pp/nom/m/sg] practicing/entering upon

dhammaanudhammappa.tipanno[compound] entering upon the complete [path of
the] Dhamma.

This seems to me to be an adjective referring to the bhikkhu who can be said
to be doing this.

Thus, my gloss of the compound must be wrong.

Any comments and clarifications on my misunderstandings are greatly
appreciated.

Metta,

Alan

-------------------------------------
From: "Ole Holten Pind"
-------------------------------------

It is a determinative compound hence a tatpurusa, if anything. pa.tipanno is
constructed with dhammaanudhamma.

Dear Alan and friends,

thanks, Alan. Warder's lists vi+muc as Conj. III. I think that is
because (1) we have to ignore vi (a prefix), and (2) no nasal is
inserted at the end of 'mu' (of muc).

I will be posting a list of verbs with their stems and conjugational
group. I hope you can help me to vet it if time permits. Thanks.


metta,
Yong Peng.



--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Alan McClure wrote:

vimutto [vi+muc II/pp/nom/sg] freed

Though this seems tricky because the passive conjugation of "muc" is
III (muccati) form with active being II (mu~ncati) form, so I guess
we should stick with the II form in describing a past participle?
I'm open to suggestions.

Dear Alan and friends,

in order to complete the first passage, I have put together a list of
verbs with their stems and conjugational groups. Please help to check
through it, and let me know if there's a problem. Thanks.

This list comprises all the verbs in the passage. However, a verb may
appear in its various forms, and I have only put down the first
instance of it in the passage.

nihita (pp, ni+dhaa I)
ahosi (aor, huu I)
pa.tivasati (pa.ti+vas I)
kaamayamaanaa (ppr, kam VII)
pesesu.m (aor, pes VII)
sutvaa (ger, (s)su V)
cintesi (aor, cint VII)
pahaaya (ger, pa+jahati of haa I)
bhavati (bhuu I)
va.t.tati (va.t.t I)
pa.tikkhipi (aor, pa.ti+(k)khip I*)
pavattentii (ppr, pa+vatt VII)
santappesi (aor, sa.m+tapp VII)
aagamma (ger, aa+gam I)
ga.nhi (aor, (g)gah V)
disvaa (ger, (d)dis>pass I)
pati.t.thaapetvaa (ger, pati+(.t).thaa VII)
aaha (past perfect, substitute for bruu I*)
oloketvaa (ger, o+lok VII)
dehi (imp, daa I)
pa.tijaggaahi (imp, pa.ti+jagg I)
vatvaa (ger, vac I)
pa.tipaadetvaa (ger, pa.ti+pad III)
agamaasi (aor, gam I)
~natvaa (ger, (~n)~naa V)
laddho (pp, labh I)
vidhametvaa (ger, vi+dhmaa VII)
vandeyya.m (opt, vand I)
kaaraapetvaa (ger, kar VI)
abhiruyha (ger, abhi+ruh I*)
.thatvaa (ger, (.t).thaa I)
puujetu.m (inf, puuj VII)
ugghosesi (aor, ud+ghoseti VII)
pa.t.thaaya (ger, pa+(.t).thaa I)
namassantu (imp, namassati I)
mahi.msu (aor, mah I)
kathesu.m (aor, kath VII)
payojesi (aor, pa+yuj VII)
niliinaa (pp, ni+liiyati I)
nivatti (aor, ni+vatt I)
patvaa (ger, pa+aap V)
anubandhitaa (pp, anu+bandh I)
pakkaami (aor, pa+(k)kam I)
janetvaa (ger, jan VII)
ulla`nghi (aor, ud+langh I)
sandhaaretu.m (inf, sa.m+dhar VII)
asakkontii (ppr, a+sak(k) VI)
parigalitvaa (ger, pari+gal I)
patantii (ppr, pat I)
sara (imp, sar I)
nisiidaapetvaa (ger, ni+siid VII)
netvaa (ger, nii I)
jahanti (haa I)
mantvaana (ger, mant VII)
vapitvaa (ger, vap I)
rakkhitvaa (ger, rakkh I)
cutaa (pp, cu I)
sutta (pp, sup I)
pabuddho (pp, pa+budh III)
nibbatti (aor, ni+vatt I)
vajanti ((v)vaj I)



metta,
Yong Peng.

Hi Alan,

Here's an attempt to answer your question about classifying compounds. If
anything isn't clear I don't mind expanding on it and as always I'm always
thankful if anyone points out my errors.

A very concise and clear source is the section on composition in Jan Gonda's _A
Concise Elementary Grammar of the Sanskrit Language_'. Even if you've only
studied Pali, it should be comprehensible (bahuvriihi = bahubbiihi, tatpuru.sa =
tappurisa etc)

>
>
>From what I currently understand, a tappurisa acts as a noun and a
>bahubbiihi as an adjective.

This isn't the key distinction to make. A tappurisa can function as both a noun
or an adjective, depending on whether the final member is a noun or an
adjective. "Mud-smeared" is an adjectival tappurisa "smeared _by_ mud". It's the
oblique case relation (in this case instrumental) between the elements that
makes it a tappurisa as opposed to a kammadhaaraya.

A bahubbiihi always ends with a noun, but the referent of the compound is some
other thing than that noun. If I say to someone 'hey big-nose!', I actually mean
'hey person with a big nose'. If I say 'hey baby-face' I mean 'hey person with
the face of a baby'. The person is the referent, not the nose or face, hence
bahubbiihis are said to have exocentric reference. Despite being formally nouns,
they refer to and qualify something else. This is why we could say that they act
as adjectives. These examples are borrowed with thanks from Mats L.

Hence a compound that internally is a tappurisa (baby-face) could function as a
bahubbihi in the context of its sentence. The same goes for a kammadhaaraya
(big-nose). It makes perfect sense, for example, to speak of a bahubbiihi with
the internal structure of a tappurisa or a kammadhaaraya.


> My gloss of the meaning of
>"dhammaanudhammappa.tipanno " is the following:
>
>`dhammaanudhamma[m-a] the Dhamma in its fullness
>
>ppa.tipanno [pa.ti+pad III/pp/nom/m/sg] practicing/entering upon
>
>dhammaanudhammappa.tipanno[compound] entering upon the complete [path of
>the] Dhamma.
>
>This seems to me to be an adjective referring to the bhikkhu who can be said
>to be doing this.

Yes it is, but as mentioned above, a tappurisa can be an adjective. Precisely
because the final member, pa.tipanno, functions adjectivally it is not a
bahubbiihi.

Another way to look at it is that you could use pa.tipanno as a standalone
adjective describing the monk. bhikkhu pa.tipanno. You can't do this with
bahubbiihis. Take the bahubbihi 'kuu.tadanta' 'crooked-tooth' as an example.

Braahma.no kuu.tadanto. "The brahmin _has_ a crooked tooth" or "the crooked
toothed brahmin". This works.

Braahma.no danto. *"the brahmin has a tooth". Doesn't work. Instead it just
collapses into a nominal sentence "the brahmin _is_ a tooth".  A noun can only
have exocentric reference as part of a compound.

>Thus, my gloss of the compound must be wrong.

Your gloss is correct as far as I can see, but you were thrown off by not
knowing that Tappurisas can be adjectives.

best regards,

/Rett

Hello Rett,

So, just to clarify, I will give some example based on what I think that I
understand:

referent:
Blessed One

compounds:
insightful mind
tall man
heart of loving kindness
person of wise action

In these cases the first two compounds are constructed as kammadhaaraya and
the second two constructed as tappurisa.  However, when used in reference to
"the Blessed One:"

Blessed One  insightful mind
Blessed One tall man
Blessed One heart of loving kindness
Blessed One person of wise action

We see that "insightful mind" is a bahubbiihi because the "Blessed One" is
not an "insightful mind" but "has" one.
though "tall man" is indeed a kammadhaaraya because he "is" one.

Similarly, "heart of loving kindness" is a bahubbiihi, but "person of wise
action" is a tappurisa.

Am I on the right track here?  It seems to me then that the deciding factor
is whether the compound can be applied to the referent with "is" or rather
it is implied that this is a quality of the person and in this case would
have to take " have" for example.

Hopefully what I've written above is correct.  Your explanation helped
greatly, and I thank you very much for your help.

Metta,

Alan



> Hi Alan,
>
> Here's an attempt to answer your question about classifying compounds. If
> anything isn't clear I don't mind expanding on it and as always I'm always
> thankful if anyone points out my errors.
>
> A very concise and clear source is the section on composition in Jan
> Gonda's _A Concise Elementary Grammar of the Sanskrit Language_'. Even if
> you've only studied Pali, it should be comprehensible (bahuvriihi =
> bahubbiihi, tatpuru.sa = tappurisa etc)
>
>>
>>
>>From what I currently understand, a tappurisa acts as a noun and a
>>bahubbiihi as an adjective.
>
> This isn't the key distinction to make. A tappurisa can function as both a
> noun or an adjective, depending on whether the final member is a noun or
> an adjective. "Mud-smeared" is an adjectival tappurisa "smeared _by_ mud".
> It's the oblique case relation (in this case instrumental) between the
> elements that makes it a tappurisa as opposed to a kammadhaaraya.
>
> A bahubbiihi always ends with a noun, but the referent of the compound is
> some other thing than that noun. If I say to someone 'hey big-nose!', I
> actually mean 'hey person with a big nose'. If I say 'hey baby-face' I
> mean 'hey person with the face of a baby'. The person is the referent, not
> the nose or face, hence bahubbiihis are said to have exocentric reference.
> Despite being formally nouns, they refer to and qualify something else.
> This is why we could say that they act as adjectives. These examples are
> borrowed with thanks from Mats L.
>
> Hence a compound that internally is a tappurisa (baby-face) could function
> as a bahubbihi in the context of its sentence. The same goes for a
> kammadhaaraya (big-nose). It makes perfect sense, for example, to speak of
> a bahubbiihi with the internal structure of a tappurisa or a
> kammadhaaraya.
>
> Yes it is, but as mentioned above, a tappurisa can be an adjective.
> Precisely because the final member, pa.tipanno, functions adjectivally it
> is not a bahubbiihi.
>
> Another way to look at it is that you could use pa.tipanno as a standalone
> adjective describing the monk. bhikkhu pa.tipanno. You can't do this with
> bahubbiihis. Take the bahubbihi 'kuu.tadanta' 'crooked-tooth' as an
> example.
>
> Braahma.no kuu.tadanto. "The brahmin _has_ a crooked tooth" or "the
> crooked toothed brahmin". This works.
>
> Braahma.no danto. *"the brahmin has a tooth". Doesn't work. Instead it
> just collapses into a nominal sentence "the brahmin _is_ a tooth".  A noun
> can only have exocentric reference as part of a compound.
>
>>Thus, my gloss of the compound must be wrong.
>
> Your gloss is correct as far as I can see, but you were thrown off by not
> knowing that Tappurisas can be adjectives.
>
> best regards,
>
> /Rett
>

Hello Yong Peng,

I have checked through:

nihita (pp, ni+dhaa I)
ahosi (aor, huu I)
pa.tivasati (pa.ti+vas I)
kaamayamaanaa (ppr, kam VII)
pesesu.m (aor, pes VII)
sutvaa (ger, (s)su V)
cintesi (aor, cint VII)
pahaaya (ger, pa+jahati of haa I)
bhavati (bhuu I)
va.t.tati (va.t.t I)
pa.tikkhipi (aor, pa.ti+(k)khip I*)

I won't be able to get back to it until later.  If anyone else checks
through a section please post it so that I don't cover the same ground.

Metta,

Alan

Hello All,

As discussed with Yong Peng, every Saturday for the forseeable future I will
be posting a translation of one or two suttas (depending on length) from the
Sa.myutta Nikaaya.  Taking on this project has occured to me for two main
reasons:


First, I noted that a project such as that being conducted by Yong Peng,
i.e. the Anguttara Nikaaya, really had the potential to help me learn
Paa.li, but that it was moving too quickly for my own pace as a beginning
Paa.li student.



Secondarily, I knew that due to the layout of the Sa.myutta Nikaaya (to be
discussed below) I would come across very similar passages in suttas of
related topics and thus this would help ingrain the Paa.li vocabulary in my
mind.  Indeed, memorizing vocabulary, of whatever language, has always
seemed a pitiable task to me, especially when it is me that has to do the
memorizing.  I wanted to avoid the task of rote memorization as much as
possible.  So I slowly began translating my first sutta.



As I have worked on the Sa.myutta, I have also continued to move through the
"Introduction to Pali" text by Warder.  In my opinion, these two projects
really go hand in hand as I learn the grammar from one and have a place to
test out my new knowledge in the other.  Initially, I began posting these
Sa.myutta and Warder translations piece by piece in the Theravada Forum at
E-Sangha were I am a moderator.  But, as the posts moved forward, I began to
see that no-one seemed to be watching.  It seemed to me that if I was going
to be posting full translations and grammatical analyses, that someone might
as well know about it and learn from it.  So, I spoke with the administrator
of E-Sangha, and had the Pali Forum at E-Sangha started in which I am the
moderator.

See:  http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showforum=50



Subsequently, I moved my translations of the Sa.myutta and the Warder
excercises into that forum.  At that time, I had completed only the first
three suttas of the second vagga, the Nidaana Vagga, and was feeling
overwhelmed about moving onto the fourth through the tenth which are all
virtually identical, but even one, is quite long and seemed, at the time, an
insurmountable task.  Luckily, starting a new Pali forum allowed more
exposure for my project, and Ven. Phra Noah Yuttadhammo happened across my
translations.  He offered to share the load and so it was decided that, at
least for the foreseeable future, he would translate the suttas and I would
do the grammatical analysis until I felt that I had the skills to do both
and still remain a sane human being.



From this point, Ven. Yuttadhammo and I completed about two suttas per week
and are now working on the seventeenth sutta of the Nidaana-Vagga.  The
reason why I started with the second of the five Vaggas, and why we are
continuing on with it, is very simple, the first Vagga contains much verse.
Bhikkhu Bodhi, himself, pointed out in the introduction to his translation
that even he would have risked not finishing the Sa.myutta if he would have
started with the first Vagga for this very reason.  Having also read A.K.
Warder's comment that he chose the Diigha Nikaaya for use in his text due to
the lack of verse, which is more conducive to beginning students
understanding grammar, etc., I decided that the second Vagga would be the
best place to start.



As some of you may remember, when I first began the project, I posted a few
questions that showed that I was very confused regarding grammar and had a
very, infinitesimal, shall we say, grasp of Paa.li grammar.  While my
understanding of it has probably not grown too much since then, I hope that
you will see some amelioration of my ability by way of my analyses not being
too filled with mistakes.  Of course there are tricky spots, and compounds
are still not my strong side, but I am hoping that with a few (hopefully not
too many) corrections here and there, that my analyses will be more than
satisfactory and will continue to improve.  Additionally, I will make note
of any terms/phrases/etc. that seem particularly tricky to me so that
mistakes do not slip by.  As for the translations themselves, since Ven.
Yuttadhammo will not be here to discuss his choices, I will not make any
changes to the final translation drafts that I am posting on my web-site and
ask for the final translation to remain the same anywhere else it is posted
too, i.e. Tipitaka.net.  However, I will make notes of any discussion
regarding terms, and so I hope that despite the somewhat rigid nature of the
final translation, that we can still discuss the translation choices
none-the-less and that more people than I will find it useful.



As for the paa.li version, I started with the CSCD for the first two suttas,
switched to the Buddha Jayanti Version through sutta 15 due to computer
issues, and then reverted, and will stay with, the CSCD for the remainder of
the project.  The digitized Buddha Jayanti has had one too many spelling
problems, and so we have switched.  I will note at the top of each
translation which version we have used, but after sutta 15, it will always
be the CSCD.



As for the title of this collection of the discourses, the "Sa.myutta
Nikaaya," the name has been translated as the "Connected Discourses of the
Buddha" by the Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi.  "Sa.myutta" itself is a past participle
from: (sa.m+yuj II), which means connected or joined together.  Furthermore,
As Bhikkhu Bodhi points out in his introduction, "yutta" means "yoked" and
"sa.m" means "together."   This shows that the quality of the "connection"
of these discourses is like that of topics being "yoked together," which is
somewhat different, but not altogether unlike the old PTS version title:
"The Book of Kindred Sayings," which Ven. Bodhi's translation has, for all
intents and purposes, replaced in terms of quality. The reason why the
Sa.myutta Nikaaya is so named is because the discourses are arranged in
related themes.  So far, the main theme of the Nidaana-Vagga has been
pa.ticcasamuppaada: "dependent origination," and more generally "causation."
However, the topics run the gamut from the aforementioned one to
mindfulness, to breathing, to Naagas, to stream-entry, etc.  This is why, as
I mentioned, the Sam.yutta is a very useful tool for learning to translate.
It allows one to see similar terms, slight variations on a theme, and
repeated terms in various cases, etc. which is highly conducive to learning
Paa.li.



Thus, with all of this in mind, I bring this introduction of the upcoming
"Sa.myutta Nikaaya translation project," by Ven. Yuttadhammo and myself, to
a close.  I hope that everyone will find it useful in more ways than one.
As mentioned, this series will run on Saturdays and will consist of one or
two suttas depending on their relative lengths.  This series will hopefully
continue at the same pace until completed, in however much time that may
take.  I have tried to cover most of the relevant information about this
project in the introduction above, but please let me know if you have any
further questions.



With a heart of metta,



Alan McClure

Dear Alan and Yong Peng:

I am now confused. From what Alan said, the conjugation depends
on prefixes.(?) Should conjugation be considered of the based on
the word alone and not the root? Are there a lot of roots that
change conjugation when combined with different prefixes?

Best Regards,
jaran



--- Ong Yong Peng <yongpeng.ong@...> wrote:

> Dear Alan and friends,
>
> thanks, Alan. Warder's lists vi+muc as Conj. III. I think that
> is
> because (1) we have to ignore vi (a prefix), and (2) no nasal
> is
> inserted at the end of 'mu' (of muc).
>
> I will be posting a list of verbs with their stems and
> conjugational
> group. I hope you can help me to vet it if time permits.
> Thanks.
>
>
> metta,
> Yong Peng.
>
>
>
> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Alan McClure wrote:
>
> vimutto [vi+muc II/pp/nom/sg] freed
>
> Though this seems tricky because the passive conjugation of
> "muc" is
> III (muccati) form with active being II (mu~ncati) form, so I
> guess
> we should stick with the II form in describing a past
> participle?
> I'm open to suggestions.
>
>
>
>




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Dear friends,

I have discovered I made a couple of mistakes in my recent posts on
the discussion of Brahma. Here are the corrections:

1. Maha Brahma lives in one of the jhana planes.

2. It was Brahma Sahampati who begs the Buddha to teach the Dhamma to
the world, not Maha Brahma.

Please see the following for more information:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html



metta,
Yong Peng.


--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:

The cute part about these beings is they are not born of the womb.
Brahma is the oldest around in one of the plane. Because he does not
have a mother, he thought he was self-created. And he thought he has
created the lower planes (which he can observe from his own). What he
never thought is that he is also in one of the planes of existence,
Samsara, and there are planes higher than the one he lives, which he
just can't see. The next higher planes are the Jhana :-) planes.

Dear Alan,
Thank you very much for your introduction. I really appreciate it very much
that you are willing to do this project for us. It will be a great help for
all of us.
Nina.
op 03-09-2005 17:18 schreef Alan McClure op alanmcclure3@...:
>
> As discussed with Yong Peng, every Saturday for the forseeable future I will
> be posting a translation of one or two suttas (depending on length) from the
> Sa.myutta Nikaaya.

Dear Alan,
op 03-09-2005 05:20 schreef Alan McClure op alanmcclure3@...:

> dhammaanudhammappa.tipanno
N: What do you think of this: anu-dhamma: in accordance with dhamma. anu:
following.
Practice of the dhamma in accordance with the dhamma.

Now I did not answer your question what compound it is.
anudhamma tells us how to patipatti dhamma. Thus, anudhamma modifies dhamma
patipanno.
Perhaps it does not modify the bhikkhu who practises?
You said: tappurisa acts as a noun and a bahubbiihi as an adjective.
I would like to learn more about compounds. I do not know much.
I want to thank Ret. Perhaps this is the clue: <Hence a compound that
internally is a tappurisa (baby-face) could function as a bahubbihi in the
context of its sentence. The same goes for a kammadhaaraya (big-nose). It
makes perfect sense, for example, to speak of a bahubbiihi with the internal
structure of a tappurisa or a kammadhaaraya. >

It is complicated for me. I print this out to study it. Thanks.
Nina.

Dear Alan, Jaran and friends,

Jaran: no, the conjugation is independent of prefixes. What it is
dependent on is an advance topic, and beyond my comprehension.
Perhaps our aspiring linguist friends can help.

For now, it is simply a matter of knowing the conjugation for each
verb. (Just as knowing the gender of each noun.)

Allow me to illustrate, and bear with me if I get the terminology
wrong.


ROOT: muc


(1a) The root is also a stem on its own.

STEM: muc

(1b) Now, into conjugation.

II: mu~ncati (active)
III: muccati (passive)


(2a) Adding a prefix introduces a new stem.

STEM: vi+muc

(2b) Now, into conjugation.

III: vimuccati (passive)


Hope that helps.


metta,
Yong Peng.


--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Jaran Jai-nhuknan wrote:

I am now confused. From what Alan said, the conjugation depends on
prefixes.(?) Should conjugation be considered of the based on the
word alone and not the root? Are there a lot of roots that change
conjugation when combined with different prefixes?

Dear Rett,


> A very concise and clear source is the section on composition in Jan
> Gonda's _A Concise Elementary Grammar of the Sanskrit Language_'.
****
Gonda's book might not be easily available for many people.  Another
excellent and detailed explanation of compounds can be found in Coulson's
Teach Yourself Sanskrit (Hodder Headline), which is very reasonably priced.

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge

Dear friends

I am confused by a passage from Visuddhimagga-mahatika, inclined to
think the reading may be corrupt. However, I am not sure, any comment
is very much appreciated.

Visuddhimagga-mahatika vol. II p.482 (CSCD) reads,

Tattha dhammat.t.hiti~naan.a.m vut.t.haanagaaminiiti vuttaa
dhammat.t.hitiya.m pat.iccasamuppaade asammuyhanavasena pavattanato.

I think 'vuttaa' may be corrupted, and the right reading should
be 'vutta.m' so that it would aggre with 'dhammat.t.hiti~naan.a.m'.

with metta

Tzungkuen



May you be free from mental and physical suffering
May you be peaceful and happy.

My website:http://home.kimo.com.tw/vipassanacenter/

Dear Yong Peng:

Now I understand. The root muc becomes different stems
(including itself) which conjugate differently (II and III)
regardless of prefixes.

Thanks.
jaran

--- Ong Yong Peng <yongpeng.ong@...> wrote:

> Dear Alan, Jaran and friends,
>
> Jaran: no, the conjugation is independent of prefixes. What it
> is
> dependent on is an advance topic, and beyond my comprehension.
>
> Perhaps our aspiring linguist friends can help.
>
> For now, it is simply a matter of knowing the conjugation for
> each
> verb. (Just as knowing the gender of each noun.)
>
> Allow me to illustrate, and bear with me if I get the
> terminology
> wrong.
>
>
> ROOT: muc
>
>
> (1a) The root is also a stem on its own.
>
> STEM: muc
>
> (1b) Now, into conjugation.
>
> II: mu~ncati (active)
> III: muccati (passive)
>
>
> (2a) Adding a prefix introduces a new stem.
>
> STEM: vi+muc
>
> (2b) Now, into conjugation.
>
> III: vimuccati (passive)
>
>
> Hope that helps.
>
>
> metta,
> Yong Peng.
>
>
> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Jaran Jai-nhuknan wrote:
>
> I am now confused. From what Alan said, the conjugation
> depends on
> prefixes.(?) Should conjugation be considered of the based on
> the
> word alone and not the root? Are there a lot of roots that
> change
> conjugation when combined with different prefixes?
>
>
>
>


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