At 03:23 AM 01-06-05, Stephen Hodge wrote:
>that most people are pretty confused when
>they have died and can get even more confused and frightened when their
>bodies have been disposed of by burial or cremation.  Autopsies are also
>very bad news.  Actually, in that respect it is fortunate that most people
>get reborn quite soon after death, but some remain in the antaraabhava state
>for several weeks so it is best, but difficult these days, to keep a corpse
>"on hold" for a while or at least not harm or destroy it -- the antaraabhava
>being often tries for a while to re-enter the corpse through fear and
>attachment.

It is especially for that reason that I think we all try to understand about
what can happen after death. Not understanding that, or (worse!) holding to an
understanding that is different from what actually happens can make after-death
a rather unnecessarily stressful experience.

Imagine a typical, traditional Theravadin who holds strongly to the orthodox
Theravadin view that rebirth *must* be immediate. One fine day, he dies and
finds himself looking at his body. It may occur to him, "Yikes, I'm dead! What
shall I do? What shall I do? Okay, stay calm. Stay calm... and be mindful. Okay,
let me see... I'm not in hell. Oh, good! I'm not an animal as well. Uhuh. I'm
certainly can't be a human. So, I'm not a human being. Am I a deva? Can't be.
Devas are suppose to be bright, right? Hmm... so I'm not a deva. Gosh! I'm a
hungry ghost! Oh, no! I'm a hungry ghost! I'm a hungry ghost! Hey, wait a
minute. I'm not hungry. When is a hungry ghost suppose to get hungry? Am I a
hungry ghost? Gee, what am I?"

That poor fellow will have to wait to some past relative or friend or some kind
"soul"s in that world, or someone here who can communicate with him, to educate
him and orientate him into the new environment. If his kamma is too bad and
nobody cares about him, then he can be rather confused., besides being
disillusioned.

Now, imagine what he thinks of his Theravadin beliefs now. Throw away the whole
fruit? I wouldn't be surprised if he does.

kb


All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is
violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. --- Arthur
Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

>  How do you suggest this
>happens when his death occurs so far from any suitable human mother and
>father for his next life, given that there is no gap between Z and A ?  What
>does Moggalitissaputta have to say about the delicate synchronization
>involved here ?

I don't know what Moggalitissaputta says, but iirc Nagasena responds
to a similar question in the Milindapanha, though the distance
involved is that between two cities remote to each other. The
question was how a person dying in the one city could be reborn
instantly in another city very far away. The response went as
follows: think of that (distant) city. Okay. How long did it take for
you to turn your mind to that distant city? No time at all. The
rebirth travels as quickly as thought.

I expect this argument could be applied to human beings near Pluto,
or anywhere.  The objection of great distance has been anticipated
and answered. Of course it depends on the rather unmodern idea that
when we think of a location, the mind has actually gone there.

best regards,

/Rett

Pali - Every few days - [C261]
Warder - Exercise 21 (page 176)
Passages for Reading 2 (Part 21 of 41)

atha kho so Vaase.t.thaa satto saali.m aahaasi sakid
eva saayapaataraasaaya.
then / indeed / this / Vasettha (and Bharadvaja) /
being / rice / brought / once / just /
evening-morning-meal
And so, Vasettha and Bharadvaja, this being gathered
rice just once for both the evening and morning meals.

atha kho Vaase.t.thaa a~n~nataro satto yena so satto
ten’ upasa”nkami; upasa”nkamitvaa ta.m satta.m etad
avoca:
then / indeed / Vasettha (and Bharadvaja) / a certain
/ being / towards / this / being / there / he
approached / having approached / to that / being /
this / he said
And later when another being came up to this being and
said to him,

ehi bho satta saal-aahaara.m gamissaamaa ti.
come / sir / being / rice-gathering / let us go /
(end-quote)
“Come on, friend, let’s go rice gathering,”

ala.m bho satta aahato me saali sakid eva
saayapaataraasaayaa ti.
enough / friend / being / gathered / by me / rice /
once / just / evening-morning-meal / (end-quote)
he replied, “No, friend, enough rice has already been
gathered by me for both the evening and morning
meals.”

Metta, John

Friends,
   I joined this group recently to learn to read Pali.
I am impressed with the lessons available on the study
of Pali, but have decided to leave the group. It seems
to be more off topic more than on, so I will search
elsewhere.  I applaud John's message and hope that all
take it to heart.  I have no insights nor have the
wisdom to add to what John suggested.  I will leave
you something to translate that may be of use, sorry
that I don't have a Pali font.  May you all be well,
peaceful and happy.
with Metta,
Revata (Bruce)

Musavada veramani-sikkhapadam samadiyami
Pisunavaca veramani-sikkhapadam samadiyami
Pharusavaca veramani-sikkhapadam samadiyami
Samphappalapa veramani-sikkhapadam samadiyami

--- John Kelly <palistudent@...> wrote:

> Dear friends,
>
> I have been very saddened by the recent increase in
> unpleasant emails on this list.  In the past, I've
> always been very impressed with the overall quality
> of
> the postings and the right-speech that is usually
> evident here.  But the last few weeks have been
> filled
> with bickering, posturing, sarcasm, snideness, and
> worse.  This has been especially sad since I've
> noticed a number of new members have joined
> recently,
> and they must be wondering whether they made a
> mistake.
>
> Every utterance that we make should be examined for;
> is this helpful, is it hurtful, am I just inflating
> my
> own ego with this, is it appropriate, is it the
> right
> time?
>
> May we all consider what we say.  And may you all be
> well.
>
> With metta, John

On Monday 23 May 2005 08:47, Mandaamin wrote:
> Excuse me for adding one thing, if it has not already been
> mentioned:
>
> In the calendar of saints of the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic
> churches, there is a saint called Ioasaf/Ioasaph in Eastern
> Orthodoxy and Josaphat in Catholicism.  This saint is actually
> the Buddha whose story has been adapted to Christian teaching.
>  He is called "Ioasaf, Prince of India" who renounced his
> throne for the religious life.

There is much more to the story. The life of the Buddha was
adapted (apparently from the Lalita-Vistara) into Arabic, then
into Greek, then into Hebrew. In each case the life of the holy
man (Bodhisattva/Ioasaph) and his teacher (Bhagavan/Barlaam) is
preserved, but all of the arguments for Buddhism are replaced by
arguments for Islam, Christianity, and Judaism, respectively.
Along the way the titles Bhagavan and Bodhisattva were distorted
by degrees. Bodhisattva became Budasaf, then Yudasaf, then
Ioasaph in various inaccurate transliterations, and Bhagavan
became Barlaam in Greek.

> This story was found in
> writings attributed to John of Damascus (early 8th century),

Barlaam and Ioasaph, Loeb Classical Library No. 34.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0674990382/qid=1117776197/sr=8-1/r\
ef=pd_csp_1/102-7900119-2546555?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
"There was a mighty king, Abener, a pagan who persecuted the
Christians. He had a son, Iosaph. At his birth, it was predicted
he would be either a world ruler or a Christian holy man. The
king sheltered Iosaph in a palace and gave him every pleasure
imaginable. At Iosaph's entreaties, he was allowed to see the
palace grounds. During these sheltered trips, he encountered an
old man, a sick man, and a beggar and became aware of the
transitory, suffering character of human life.

"This story, of course, will be familiar to every student of
Buddhism."

> who probably got it from even earlier sources, and was
> incorporated into the lives of the saints written by Simon
> Metaphrastes (c. 950).  And so in a roundabout way, the Buddha
> became a saint

Actually, two not-quite-saints. Neither was ever officially
canonized.

> commemorated on a day each year in the Orthodox
> and Catholic churches, and there are also icons painted of
> this "saint" who is really the Buddha in thin Christian
> disguise.

When the error was discovered, they were removed from the
Catholic Church lists of holy persons entirely.
--
Edward Cherlin
Generalist & activist--Linux, languages, literacy and more
"A knot! Oh, do let me help to undo it!"
--Alice in Wonderland
http://cherlin.blogspot.com

Dear Revata,

> It seems to be more off topic more than on, so I will search
> elsewhere.
I'm sorry to hear that you are leaving because there is not enough Pali
language material but if you look at the objectives of the group, you will
see that discussions of other matters apart from just Pali language are
deemed acceptable.  Since I joind this group, it is not my impression that
the amount of Pali language topics has diminished but the range of other
topics has broadened and increased.  Although some of the recent discussions
have been heated, and at times rather unpleasant, these topics are important
for a deeper understanding of the texts and the teachings of the Buddha --
even if we cannot reach an agrement on some of these things.   But good luck
with your studies whatever you do !

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge

An Elementary Pali Course
Exercise 21-A: Translate into English.

Dear friends, please help to construct sentence #10. Thanks.

9. Senaapatiputto anupubbena tassa ra.t.the senaapati ahosi.
    general's son / in course of time / his / in country /
    general / became
    In the course of time, the general's son became the general
    in his country.

    senaapatiputto = senaapatissa-putto [T]
    anupubba.m = anu-pubba [A]

10. "Iti h'eta.m vijaanaahi pa.thamo so paraabhavo."
     thus / indeed-this / may (you) learn / first / he / ruin

     paraabhavo = paraa-bhavo [A]

11. Duranubodha.m abhidhamma.m yathaabala.m pa.n.ditaa-sotuuna.m
     desetu.m va.t.tati*.
     difficult to understand / higher Doctrine /
     according to strength / to wise hearers / to preach / it is fit
     It is fit to preach to the wise hearers according to (their)
     strength the higher Doctrine (which is) difficult to understand.

     duranubodha.m = du-r-anubodha [A]
     abhidhamma.m = abhi-dhamma [A]
     yathaabala.m = yathaa-bala [A]

12. Uparaajaa pa.tiraajaana.m abhibhavitu.m upanagara.m gato.
     viceroy / hostile kings / to overcome / [to] suburb / is gone
     The viceroy is gone to the suburb to overcome the hostile kings.

     upanagara.m = upa-nagara [A]
     pa.tiraajaa = pa.ti-raajaa [A]

13. Sattasattaaha.m so niraahaaro'va vane vasi.
     seven-seven-day / he / without food-so / in forest / lived
     So he lived seven weeks in the forest without food.

     niraahaara = ni-r-aahaara [A]

* va.t.tati = it is fit

     [A]vyayiibhaava
     [B]ahubbiihi
     [D]vanda
     [K]ammadhaaraya {[n]umerical}
     [T]appurisa


metta,
Yong Peng.

--- Edward Cherlin <cherlin@...> skrev:
>
> When the error was discovered, they were removed
> from the
> Catholic Church lists of holy persons entirely.
> --

What about the Orthodox churches?

Gunnar

gunnargallmo@...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phra Noah Yuttadhammo [mailto:yuttadhammo@...]
> Sent: June 3, 2005 6:16 PM
> To: 'Kumaara Bhikkhu'
> Cc: Pali@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: Commentaries {Re: Re-reading the Pali Canon {Re:
> [Pali] Re: Bhikkhuni ordination and the Vinaya}}
>
> Ven. Sir,
>
> > First of all, it is odd that the first bhikkhuni should
> spend her time
> > spinning and weaving cloths to be offered to the Buddha. It
> seems more
> > like a lay person's work.
> >
> > Anyway, more convincing than that is that, according to the
> sutta, in
> > Ven Ananda's process to entreat the Buddha to accept the cloths, he
> > mentioned that "It is owing to the Blessed One that Mahaapajaapatii
> > Gotamii has gone for refuge to the Buddha, the Dhamma and
> the Sangha."
> > This is equivalent of saying that she is an upasika. [See Mahanama
> > Sutta (AN VIII 25)]. Even more convincing than that is that he also
> > said she observed the 5 precepts, which is the practice of
> a virtuous
> > lay person. [Again, see Mahanama Sutta].
> >
> > If she was already a bhikkhuni, why would Ven Ananda speak of lay
> > attributes, instead saying something like "It is owing to
> the Blessed
> > One that Mahaapajaapatii Gotamii has gone forth from home to
> > homelessness"?
>
> I don't see this as a sure proof that she is still a lay person.
>
> > So, it seems quite plain to me that in the sutta, Mahaapajaapatii
> > Gotamii is shown as a lay person. Hope this answers you question.
>
> Yes, it answers my question.  But I still don't think it is
> proof that could allow you to say:
>
> >> According to the sutta, MahaPajapati Gotami, still a lay follower,
>
> But, I think I agree she was probably a lay woman still.
>
> For me, I think it is like this:
>
> 1) The Lord Buddha was staying at Nigrodharama at the time of
> offering the cloth.
> 2) The cloth is freshly spun.
> 3) As you say, I think spinning cloth is work for lay people.
> 4) The Lord Buddha left Nigrodharama for rajagaha before
> allowing Mahapajapati to ordain.
>
> So, unless she spun the cloth, carried it to Rajagaha,
> followed the Buddha right back to Nigrodharama after
> ordination (it doesn't say whether He went back right away,
> but it seems unlikely), and offered it in Nigrodharama, she
> probably was not ordained when she offered the robe.
> Otherwise, bhikkhunis can still spin robes?  What are the
> rules on that?
>
> > >but the Lord Buddha is said to have talked about the
> > Bhikkhuni Sangha
> > >shortly after His Enlightenment as well.  What does that mean?
> >
> > Perhaps I can answer that question if you can show me the
> source for
> > this.
>
> Here is the source:
>
> ----------------------
>
> DN 16: [note the word "pa.thamaabhisambuddho"]
>
>  175. “Ekamidaaha.m, aananda, samaya.m uruvelaaya.m viharaami
> najjaa nera~njaraaya tiire ajapaalanigrodhe
> *pa.thamaabhisambuddho*. atha kho, aananda, maaro paapimaa
> yenaaha.m tenupasa"nkami; upasa"nkamitvaa ekamanta.m
> a.t.thaasi. ekamanta.m .thito kho, aananda, maaro paapimaa
> ma.m etadavoca– ‘parinibbaatudaani, bhante, bhagavaa;
> parinibbaatu sugato, parinibbaanakaalodaani, bhante,
> bhagavato’ti. eva.m vutte aha.m, aananda, maara.m
> paapimanta.m etadavoca.m–
>
> “‘Na taavaaha.m, paapima, parinibbaayissaami, yaava me
> bhikkhuu na saavakaa bhavissanti viyattaa viniitaa visaaradaa
> bahussutaa dhammadharaa dhammaanudhammappa.tipannaa
> saamiicippa.tipannaa anudhammacaarino, saka.m aacariyaka.m
> uggahetvaa aacikkhissanti desessanti pa~n~napessanti
> pa.t.thapessanti vivarissanti vibhajissanti
> uttaaniikarissanti, uppanna.m parappavaada.m sahadhammena
> suniggahita.m niggahetvaa sappaa.tihaariya.m dhamma.m desessanti.
>
> [And here's the paragraph in question:]
>
>  “‘Na taavaaha.m, paapima, parinibbaayissaami, yaava me
> bhikkhuniyo na saavikaa bhavissanti viyattaa viniitaa
> visaaradaa bahussutaa dhammadharaa
> dhammaanudhammappa.tipannaa saamiicippa.tipannaa
> anudhammacaariniyo, saka.m aacariyaka.m uggahetvaa
> aacikkhissanti desessanti pa~n~napessanti pa.t.thapessanti
> vivarissanti vibhajissanti uttaaniikarissanti, uppanna.m
> parappavaada.m sahadhammenasuniggahita.m niggahetvaa
> sappaa.tihaariya.m dhamma.m desessanti.
>
> [the rest concerns lay men and lay women]
>
> -------------------------------
>
> [Rhys Davids Translation:]
>
> 3.43. 'On one occasion, Ânanda, I was resting under the
> shepherd's Nigrodha tree on the bank of the river Nerańgarâ
> immediately after having reached the great enlightenment.
> Then Mâra, the Evil One, came, Ânanda, to the place where I
> was, and standing beside me he addressed me in the words:
> "Pass away now, Lord, from existence! Let the Blessed One now
> die! Now is the time for the Blessed One to pass away!"
>
> 44. 'And when he had thus spoken, Ânanda, I addressed Mâra,
> the Evil One, and said: "I shall not die, O Evil One! until
> not only the brethren and sisters of the order, but also the
> lay-disciples of either sex shall have become true hearers,
> wise and well-trained, ready and learned, versed in the
> Scriptures, fulfilling all the greater and the lesser duties,
> correct in life, walking according to the precepts--until
> they, having thus themselves learned the doctrine, shall be
> able to tell others of it, preach it, make it known,
> establish it, open it, minutely explain it and make it
> clear--until they, when others start vain doctrine, shall be
> able by the truth to vanquish and refute it, and so to spread
> the wonder-working truth abroad!
>
> ------------------------------
>
> >
> > >  In MN 142, the Lord Buddha also makes a mention of a gift to the
> > >Sangha after his passing away (Ven. Kumara: "as if it already had
> > >happened").  Does that mean that this discourse was given
> after His
> > >Parinibbaana?  God Buddha lives...
> >
> > I hope that you are now reasonable enough to see that you
> were being
> > unreasonable when you said the above. Btw, I said "as if it already
> > existed".
>
> No, it still seems reasonable enough to me.  You said this:
>
> >Then, the Buddha supposedly mentioned the BhikkhuniSangha as if it
> >already
> existed.
>
> Am I hearing you right to conclude that:
>
> "Mentioning gifts given at the time of the Bhikkhuni Sangha
> means that it already existed at the time of mentioning."
>
> If so, I could extrapolate and say that:
>
> "Mentioning gifts given at the time after the Buddha's
> parinibbaana means that it already happened at the time of
> mentioning."
>
> Is that really unreasonable to extrapolate?  Anyway, I think
> the Mahaa-parinibbaana Sutta quoted above shows it to be an
> invalid supposition to say "as if it already existed".  The
> Lord Buddha knew many things about the future, both about the
> Bhikkhuni Sangha and his Parinibbana.  But it seems logical
> they were both in the future in this sutta.
>
> I'm sorry, but it seems funny that you think to have caught
> in a few years a mistake that 2000 years of studying,
> memorising, and editing by the Theravadin Buddhist elders
> couldn't catch.
>
> >
> > >If anything, we might take this to be an instigation for
> > Mahapajapati
> > >to request to become the first bhikkhuni.
> >
> > ... and then repeatedly reject her?
>
> Again, the sutta quoted shows that indeed, the Lord Buddha
> not only forsaw the establishment of the Bhikkhuni Sangha,
> but refused to pass into Parinibbaana until it was well established.
>
> Are you asking why the Lord Buddha said: “Ala.m, gotami, maa
> te rucci maatugaamassa tathaagatappavedite
> dhammavinayeagaarasmaa anagaariya.m pabbajjaa”ti. (Cv x)?
>
> The Lord Buddha gives the answer Himself:
>
> yasmi.m dhammavinaye labhati maatugaamoagaarasmaa
> anagaariya.m pabbajja.m, na ta.m brahmacariya.m cira.t.thitika.m hoti.
>
> This is why He required the 8 rules for bhikkhunis.  If I
> remember right, the Theravadin commentary here is quite interesting.
>
> > Btw, while I can't be absolutely sure why you left the
> group, I think
> > it was a good move. I believe you would understand what I
> mean here. I
> > think I've over-stayed as well, and shall leave as soon as I tie up
> > some loose ends.
>
> Sorry, I really am dense.  And I have a cold too.  I wrote
> this to Stephen as to why I have left the Pali group:
>
> "I don't think the Pali group is that helpful after all, as
> my contributions seem to be only fending off attacks on my
> own view of the Dhamma.  This is surely not what a new monk
> should be engaged in!  Maybe in a couple of years, when I've
> studied Pali intensively, I will find the Pali group more
> useful.  For now, please consider me off the list, for want
> of time do devote to such an eclectic discussion group.
> There are only 24 hours in a day :)"
>
> Again, I am cc'ing this to the Pali group, but you'll have to
> send me your replies directly if you want me to respond,
> otherwise I won't get them.
>
> > May all grow joyfully in loving-kindness and wisdom.
>
> As long as that includes me and you too, I'm with you.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Yuttadhammo
>
> PS: I was pleasantly surprised to read your other post that
> says good things about Theravada Buddhism.  I won't reply to
> it in a seperate e-mail, but here's my reply to your question:
>
> >Suppose someone gives you a fruit to eat. You're hungry and
> it suits you.
> But before eating it, you find that it is partly bad. What
> would you do?
>
> I still can't find the bad part you keep talking about.  Have
> you ever stepped on a rope and thought it was a snake?
>
>
>

Ven. Sir,

> First of all, it is odd that the first bhikkhuni should spend her time
> spinning and weaving cloths to be offered to the Buddha. It seems more
> like a lay person's work.
>
> Anyway, more convincing than that is that, according to the sutta, in
> Ven Ananda's process to entreat the Buddha to accept the cloths, he
> mentioned that "It is owing to the Blessed One that Mahaapajaapatii
> Gotamii has gone for refuge to the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha."
> This is equivalent of saying that she is an upasika. [See Mahanama
> Sutta (AN VIII 25)]. Even more convincing than that is that he also
> said she observed the 5 precepts, which is the practice of a virtuous
> lay person. [Again, see Mahanama Sutta].
>
> If she was already a bhikkhuni, why would Ven Ananda speak of lay
> attributes, instead saying something like "It is owing to the Blessed
> One that Mahaapajaapatii Gotamii has gone forth from home to
> homelessness"?

I don't see this as a sure proof that she is still a lay person.

> So, it seems quite plain to me that in the sutta, Mahaapajaapatii
> Gotamii is shown as a lay person. Hope this answers you question.

Yes, it answers my question.  But I still don't think it is proof that could
allow you to say:

>> According to the sutta, MahaPajapati Gotami, still a lay follower,

But, I think I agree she was probably a lay woman still.

For me, I think it is like this:

1) The Lord Buddha was staying at Nigrodharama at the time of offering the
cloth.
2) The cloth is freshly spun.
3) As you say, I think spinning cloth is work for lay people.
4) The Lord Buddha left Nigrodharama for rajagaha before allowing
Mahapajapati to ordain.

So, unless she spun the cloth, carried it to Rajagaha, followed the Buddha
right back to Nigrodharama after ordination (it doesn't say whether He went
back right away, but it seems unlikely), and offered it in Nigrodharama, she
probably was not ordained when she offered the robe.  Otherwise, bhikkhunis
can still spin robes?  What are the rules on that?

> >but the Lord Buddha is said to have talked about the
> Bhikkhuni Sangha
> >shortly after His Enlightenment as well.  What does that mean?
>
> Perhaps I can answer that question if you can show me the source for
> this.

Here is the source:

----------------------

DN 16: [note the word "pa.thamaabhisambuddho"]

  175. “Ekamidaaha.m, aananda, samaya.m uruvelaaya.m viharaami najjaa
nera~njaraaya tiire ajapaalanigrodhe *pa.thamaabhisambuddho*. atha kho,
aananda, maaro paapimaa yenaaha.m tenupasa"nkami; upasa"nkamitvaa ekamanta.m
a.t.thaasi. ekamanta.m .thito kho, aananda, maaro paapimaa ma.m etadavoca–
‘parinibbaatudaani, bhante, bhagavaa; parinibbaatu sugato,
parinibbaanakaalodaani, bhante, bhagavato’ti. eva.m vutte aha.m, aananda,
maara.m paapimanta.m etadavoca.m–

“‘Na taavaaha.m, paapima, parinibbaayissaami, yaava me bhikkhuu na saavakaa
bhavissanti viyattaa viniitaa visaaradaa bahussutaa dhammadharaa
dhammaanudhammappa.tipannaa saamiicippa.tipannaa anudhammacaarino, saka.m
aacariyaka.m uggahetvaa aacikkhissanti desessanti pa~n~napessanti
pa.t.thapessanti vivarissanti vibhajissanti uttaaniikarissanti, uppanna.m
parappavaada.m sahadhammena suniggahita.m niggahetvaa sappaa.tihaariya.m
dhamma.m desessanti.

[And here's the paragraph in question:]

  “‘Na taavaaha.m, paapima, parinibbaayissaami, yaava me bhikkhuniyo na
saavikaa bhavissanti viyattaa viniitaa visaaradaa bahussutaa dhammadharaa
dhammaanudhammappa.tipannaa saamiicippa.tipannaa anudhammacaariniyo, saka.m
aacariyaka.m uggahetvaa aacikkhissanti desessanti pa~n~napessanti
pa.t.thapessanti vivarissanti vibhajissanti uttaaniikarissanti, uppanna.m
parappavaada.m sahadhammenasuniggahita.m niggahetvaa sappaa.tihaariya.m
dhamma.m desessanti.

[the rest concerns lay men and lay women]

-------------------------------

[Rhys Davids Translation:]

3.43. 'On one occasion, Ânanda, I was resting under the shepherd's Nigrodha
tree on the bank of the river Nerańgarâ immediately after having reached the
great enlightenment. Then Mâra, the Evil One, came, Ânanda, to the place
where I was, and standing beside me he addressed me in the words: "Pass away
now, Lord, from existence! Let the Blessed One now die! Now is the time for
the Blessed One to pass away!"

44. 'And when he had thus spoken, Ânanda, I addressed Mâra, the Evil One,
and said: "I shall not die, O Evil One! until not only the brethren and
sisters of the order, but also the lay-disciples of either sex shall have
become true hearers, wise and well-trained, ready and learned, versed in the
Scriptures, fulfilling all the greater and the lesser duties, correct in
life, walking according to the precepts--until they, having thus themselves
learned the doctrine, shall be able to tell others of it, preach it, make it
known, establish it, open it, minutely explain it and make it clear--until
they, when others start vain doctrine, shall be able by the truth to
vanquish and refute it, and so to spread the wonder-working truth abroad!

------------------------------

>
> >  In MN 142, the Lord Buddha also makes a mention of a gift to the
> >Sangha after his passing away (Ven. Kumara: "as if it already had
> >happened").  Does that mean that this discourse was given after His
> >Parinibbaana?  God Buddha lives...
>
> I hope that you are now reasonable enough to see that you were being
> unreasonable when you said the above. Btw, I said "as if it already
> existed".

No, it still seems reasonable enough to me.  You said this:

>Then, the Buddha supposedly mentioned the BhikkhuniSangha as if it already
existed.

Am I hearing you right to conclude that:

"Mentioning gifts given at the time of the Bhikkhuni Sangha means that it
already existed at the time of mentioning."

If so, I could extrapolate and say that:

"Mentioning gifts given at the time after the Buddha's parinibbaana means
that it already happened at the time of mentioning."

Is that really unreasonable to extrapolate?  Anyway, I think the
Mahaa-parinibbaana Sutta quoted above shows it to be an invalid supposition
to say "as if it already existed".  The Lord Buddha knew many things about
the future, both about the Bhikkhuni Sangha and his Parinibbana.  But it
seems logical they were both in the future in this sutta.

I'm sorry, but it seems funny that you think to have caught in a few years a
mistake that 2000 years of studying, memorising, and editing by the
Theravadin Buddhist elders couldn't catch.

>
> >If anything, we might take this to be an instigation for
> Mahapajapati
> >to request to become the first bhikkhuni.
>
> ... and then repeatedly reject her?

Again, the sutta quoted shows that indeed, the Lord Buddha not only forsaw
the establishment of the Bhikkhuni Sangha, but refused to pass into
Parinibbaana until it was well established.

Are you asking why the Lord Buddha said: “Ala.m, gotami, maa te rucci
maatugaamassa tathaagatappavedite dhammavinayeagaarasmaa anagaariya.m
pabbajjaa”ti. (Cv x)?

The Lord Buddha gives the answer Himself:

yasmi.m dhammavinaye labhati maatugaamoagaarasmaa anagaariya.m pabbajja.m,
na ta.m brahmacariya.m cira.t.thitika.m hoti.

This is why He required the 8 rules for bhikkhunis.  If I remember right,
the Theravadin commentary here is quite interesting.

> Btw, while I can't be absolutely sure why you left the group, I think
> it was a good move. I believe you would understand what I mean here. I
> think I've over-stayed as well, and shall leave as soon as I tie up
> some loose ends.

Sorry, I really am dense.  And I have a cold too.  I wrote this to Stephen
as to why I have left the Pali group:

"I don't think the Pali group is that helpful after all, as my contributions
seem to be only fending off attacks on my own view of the Dhamma.  This is
surely not what a new monk should be engaged in!  Maybe in a couple of
years, when I've studied Pali intensively, I will find the Pali group more
useful.  For now, please consider me off the list, for want of time do
devote to such an eclectic discussion group.  There are only 24 hours in a
day :)"

Again, I am cc'ing this to the Pali group, but you'll have to send me your
replies directly if you want me to respond, otherwise I won't get them.

> May all grow joyfully in loving-kindness and wisdom.

As long as that includes me and you too, I'm with you.

Respectfully,

Yuttadhammo

PS: I was pleasantly surprised to read your other post that says good things
about Theravada Buddhism.  I won't reply to it in a seperate e-mail, but
here's my reply to your question:

>Suppose someone gives you a fruit to eat. You're hungry and it suits you.
But before eating it, you find that it is partly bad. What would you do?

I still can't find the bad part you keep talking about.  Have you ever
stepped on a rope and thought it was a snake?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Ven. Sir,

> >>> So show me where the Buddha explicitly denies an
> antaraabhava, please.
> >>
> >>How can I?  You don't subscribe to the same texts that I do... The
> >>Buddha taught, according to the Three Pali Canon, that what you are
> >>describing is either a person not yet dead or a peta.
> >
> >Dear avuso,
> >
> >I hope you are not trying to avoid the issue. Could you
> please answer the question?

I already have.  In the same place where He explicitly denies a horned hare.

> >Can I trust that you have read the Pali suttas whereby the
> Buddha and his disciples seem to be taking the "in-between"
> as a commonly accepted fact?

You are referring to the antaraparinibbayi?  I don't know what it means, but
it is a far cry to say this obscure reference proves an antaraabhava.

> >Can you show us any sutta that shows otherwise?

Of course.  MN 43 says this:

"Friend, in the case of one who is dead, who has completed his time, his
bodily formations have ceased and subsided, his verbal formations have
ceased and subsided, his mental formations have ceased and subsided, his
vitality is exhausted, his heat has been dissipated, and his faculties are
fully broken up."

This is death.  What is rebirth?  So many examples, here's one:

DN 2:

"'With his heart thus serene (&c. as before), he directs and bends down his
mind to the knowledge of the fall and rise of beings. With the pure Heavenly
Eye{2}, surpassing that of men, he sees beings as they pass away from one
form of existence and take shape in another; he recognises the mean and the
noble, the well favoured and the ill favoured, the happy and the wretched,
passing away according to their deeds: "Such and such beings, brethren, evil
in act and word and thought, revilers of the noble ones, holding to wrong
views, acquiring for themselves that Karma which results from wrong views,
they, on the dissolution of the body, after death, are reborn in some
unhappy state of suffering or woe. But such and such beings, my brethren,
well doers in act and word and thought, not revilers of the noble ones,
holding to right views, acquiring for themselves that Karma that results
from right views, they, on the dissolution of the body, after death, are
reborn in some happy state in heaven." Thus with the pure Heavenly Eye,
surpassing that of men, [83] he sees beings as they pass away from one state
of existence, and take form in another; he recognises the mean and the
noble, the well favoured and the ill favoured, the happy and the wretched,
passing away according to their deeds{1}."

MN 143:

"Soon after they had left, the householder Anaathapi.n.dika died and
reappeared in the Tusita Heaven."

Where is the antarabhava?

One would think that if the Lord Buddha agreed with Stephen that this was a
most important time in the "life" of a person, that the Lord Buddha would
have mentioned it, not just skipped over it, time and again saying that
"after death they are reborn".  An obscure reference to "antaraaparinibbayi"
is hardly enough to prove anything.

> >Btw, in the suttas, peta usually mean "departed one",
> regardless where the stream of consciousness has gone to. It
> is not as most Buddhists now understand the term.  Look it up
> for yourself.

Okay, I did:

PetaV:

  27. "Aha.m bhadante petiimhi, duggataa yamalokikaa;
paapakamma.m karitvaana, petaloka.m ito gataa."

So does this mean that all dead people go to this "departed-ones-world"
(petaloka)?  Which suttas are you referring to?

Yuttadhammo



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Piya Tan <libris@s...> wrote:
> Dharma friends,
>
> The antaraabhaava problem (incl Ajahn Brahm's view) is discussed in
detail in Sutta Discovery vol 2 no 17 (Is rebirth immediate?).
>
> Sukhi
>
> Piya

----------------------
Dear Piya,
Could you summarize the venerables view, or give a link to this sutta
discovery.
robertk

Dear Jim and Stephen,

Even the Yahoo Group software is leading to impoliteness!
Although I sent my reply at the same time as Jim and about ten
minutes before Stephen, it didn't post until six hours later.
Certainly no criticism of your advice intended :)

With Metta,
Sumana

> Good Luck!  Maybe some of the academics will de-lurk and really
give
> you some good advice!
>
> With Metta,
> Sumana
>
>
>
> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "natalie_indeed"
<natalie_indeed@y...>
> wrote:
> > Dear lovely bickering members,
> >
> > I am in the process of both deepening my practice and beginning
to
> > study the Pali Canon as an academic. My question regards the
> latter.
> > Does anyone have any recommendations for scholarly books and/or
> > articles that trace the historical development of the Theravada
> Canon,
> > i.e., older sections, newer sections, and so on? Also, I still
> need to
> > get a firm grasp on the historical development of the different
> Nikaya
> > schools in India and their respective doctrinal positions. I'm
> > currently reading Hirakawa/Paul Groner's _History of Indian
> Buddhism_,
> > but it's not quite as in-depth as I had hoped and it's probably
> also a
> > bit dated.
> >
> > Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
> >
> > Kindness,
> > Natalie Fisk
> > Graduate Theological Union

Bhante,

Once in a public talk, some asked Ajahn Brahmavamso about the differences
between the
various schools of Buddhism. At one point in his insightful answer, he made this
remarks:
"There are only two kinds of Buddhism: your and mine"

No one questioned him further. So let me hazard a commentary:
I think what he meant was that everyone has their own opinion about Buddhism,
but as
long as we think in terms of "I," "me" and "mine" there will always be differing
views.

The point is to look beyond self.

Let me know say my mind about anyone who leave this website (esp this one). Sure
everyone is free to come and go. First of all one need not announce that one
wishes
to leave.

Uninvited one comes, uninvited one goes, so who is there to complain?

I recall once when some hooligans were verbally abusing the Buddha, and Ananda
was
upset, and invited the Buddha to leave town and go to another.

What if the people there repeated the abuse, the Buddha asked.
Let's go to another, Ananda naively relied.

It does not work that way, Buddha replied, in seven days all this abuse will
dies
down, he promised.

The point is there is strife everyone, even for ostriches with the head in the
sand.
Unless we are in "eternal" denial.

Some have propensity for making dense remarks, which attract dense and not so
dense
replies.

There are bad people because there are good people: so who is to blame.

I rather listen to the direct abusive writing than read saccharin-sweet
well-meaning
but empty platitudes. I think we learn more from the latter. Perhaps we need
more
training, but the wise listening ear is a good teacher.

There is much to learn from this website: no rose is without thorns.
Where is samsara can be free from the likes of Suan and me and you.
We will bump into each other again in any galaxy!
So let's enjoy each other's company and think beyond names and naming.

Sukhi

Piya.
 
 
 

Yuttadhammo wrote:

> > As a wise monk says: there are only two kinds of Buddhism:
> > Yours and Mine.
>
> Dear Sir,
>
> Sorry to sound dense, but I don't get it...
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Yuttadhammo
>
>
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only.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>  

Bhante Kumara,

Here is my paper on Mahapajapati. Hope it is useful.

Namakkara.m

Piya

Kumaara Bhikkhu wrote:

> At 01:05 PM 30-05-05, Ngawang Dorje wrote:
> >> Heck, there are even some suttas that I can't honestly trust. I know that
one of them is rather obviously edited: Dakkhinavibhanga Sutta (MN142). <
> >
> >May I know why you said that the sutta is edited?
>
> I'm sure Piya can give you a very complete answer to that, but for a start,
let me point out something rather glaring.
>
> According to the sutta, MahaPajapati Gotami, still a lay follower, wished to
offer robe cloth to the Buddha, who then asked her to give it to the Sangha
instead. Then, the Buddha supposedly mentioned the BhikkhuniSangha as if it
already existed. Since it is exceedingly plain in the Mahavagga of the Vinaya
Pitaka that MahaPajapati Gotami was the first bhikkhuni, how can we reconcile
this?
>
> For details, see MLDB, p1349, n1291.
>
> To reconcile this, we have to either conclude that either this sutta has been
edited or the Mahavagga (or both!). I'm inclined to believe that it is the sutta
and would like to hear more about it from Piya. Over to you, Bro. Piya.
>
> peace
>
> Kumâra Bhikkhu
>
>         An old error is always more popular than a new truth. (German proverb)
>
>
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>
>
>
>  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Some people in this group will be saddened to learn, as I am, just having
read elsewhere, that the great Chinese Buddhist scholar, Venerable Yin Shun
(b. 1906), passed away today, June 4.

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge

Dear Yong Peng,
It is hard if we do not know the context.
I try.
op 03-06-2005 15:07 schreef Ong Yong Peng op yongpeng.ong@...:

>
> 10. "Iti h'eta.m vijaanaahi pa.thamo so paraabhavo."
> thus / indeed-this / may (you) learn / first / he / ruin
>
N: This defeat is the first that you should understand.
Nina.

Dear Sukhi,
   I totally agree on your descriptions.
   In SN(Sutta-nipata), Parayana-vagga, 16 pupils asked
questions to Buddha. Ajita is the first one and Tisa
Metteyya is he second. According to Chinese
translation, The name of Matteya Bodhisatta is Ajita.
But in SN, it is described as two persons.
    First of all, reading SN you may find out what
described about so-called Matteya Bodhisatta is
different with what in SN. There is no reasons to
assume they are the same people.
   According to Agamas, there is no descriptions of
[Matteya Bodhisatta] in Samyutta Agama, there is only
one sutta each in both Majjima Agama and Digha Agama
talking briefly about [Matteya Bodhisatta], but having
nothing to do with [Matteya Bodhisatta]'s special
charateristics:[not praticing jhana, not
totally-abandoning kilesa]. In both Majjima Agama and
Digha Agama, this short description about [Matteya
Bodhisatta] is related to descrptions of another
Indian Myth--Cakkavatti-Sihanada(King of wheels).
It should be treated as fairy story instead of
history.
  There are seven to eight (longer) descriptions in
Anguttara Agama. Due to strong flavor of Mahayana in
Anguttara Agama, I do not want to quote them as
bibliographical reference.
    Yifer
--- libris <libris@...> Ľg:

---------------------------------
Dear Thomas,

Metteyya is only mentioned in the Cakkavatti Sihanada
Sutta (D 26)in the Canon, definitely not in the Sutta
Nipata, although there mught be a disciple whose name
is very close,

Ajahn Sujato has a very interesting theory about
Metteyya. You might loike to ask him about it.

Sukhi

Piya

--- thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I heard that Maitreya (Pali: Metteya) Bodhisattva as
a future Buddha
> is
> also found in Pali canon (Sutta-Nipata?). If it is
correct, then
> this
> faith came to exist in Buddhism at historically
early state. Also,
> only
> this Bodhisattva in the Mahayana is recognized by
all Hinayana or
> early
> Buddhist sects.
>
> Please give me advice. Thank you.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Thomas Law
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Respected Elders & Dear Friends

Greetings from Calcutta, India.

I have been searching for the Sanskrit or Pali version of the 4
Bodhisattva vows. As a composer and singer of devotional songs I am
keen to sing the Bodhisattva vows.

I would be grateful for your kind assistance in this regard.

Thanks you, and with best wishes and regards,

Yours sincerely

V Ramaswamy

B 299 Lake Gardens
Calcutta 700 045
INDIA
E-mail: hpp@...

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "natalie_indeed" <natalie_indeed@y...> wrote:
> Does anyone have any recommendations for scholarly books and/or
> articles that trace the historical development of the Theravada Canon,
> i.e., older sections, newer sections, and so on?

Hi,

Kingsbury, Paul. The Chronology of the Pali Canon: The Case of the Aorist
System.  PhD
thesis, University of Pennsylvania, 2002.

hth,

tl

Dear Stephen and friends,

thanks for the information. You may read online news articles here:

English:
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2005/06/05/2003257991
Chinese: http://www.epochtimes.com/b5/5/6/4/n944413.htm

metta,
Yong Peng.


--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Hodge wrote:

Some people in this group will be saddened to learn, as I am, just
having read elsewhere, that the great Chinese Buddhist scholar,
Venerable Yin Shun (b. 1906), passed away today, June 4.

Robert,

Basically, Ajahn Brahm (and the forest monks of Ajahn Chah) believe there is an
antarabhava, partly from the numerous accounts in the Suttas, and according to
Ajahn his personal experiences dealing with the dying in Thailand (I have not
inquired further on this). Hoping he has written on this and will be published.

His books of meditation are excellent reading and useful for practice, esp for
those already with some background. Refreshing, effective and compassionate to
say the least.

Sukhi

Piya

--- rjkjp1 <rjkjp1@...> wrote:

> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Piya Tan <libris@s...> wrote:
> > Dharma friends,
> >
> > The antaraabhaava problem (incl Ajahn Brahm's view) is discussed
> in
> detail in Sutta Discovery vol 2 no 17 (Is rebirth immediate?).
> >
> > Sukhi
> >
> > Piya
>
> ----------------------
> Dear Piya,
> Could you summarize the venerables view, or give a link to this
> sutta
> discovery.
> robertk
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
>
>
>

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, libris <libris@s...> wrote:
> Robert,
>
> Basically, Ajahn Brahm (and the forest monks of Ajahn Chah) believe
there is an antarabhava, partly from the numerous accounts in the
Suttas, and according to Ajahn his personal experiences dealing with
the dying in Thailand (I have not inquired further on this). Hoping he
has written on this and will be published.
>
> ________
  Dear Piya Tan
Thanks. I am somewhat surprised as this particular view was one of
those refuted at the third council some 2300 years ago.

From the  Katthavatthu atthakattha *(translation Pali text society)
"at that congress (the third council)the elder Tissa Moggalis son to
avert al bases of heresy that ahd arsien and might in the future
arise, analysed in detail the heads of discourse which had been
delievered by the master into 500 heterodox and 500 orthodox
statements and so uttered the book of the bases of discourse@

  (page 212 PTS)
VIII2.
Of an intermediate state (anatarabhava)
Controverted state: That there is an intermediate state of existence.
So (as for instance the Pubbaseliyas and sammitiyas) held that tehre
is an interim state where a being awaits reconception..
Teh conuter argument is based on the Exaleted ones dictum that there
are three sates of becoming only - teh kama , the Rupabrahma  and the
arupabraham worlds.. ""

It goes on for a full two pages .
Robertk

Dear Robert,
My simple answer is those antarabhava beings the monks
met could be just ghost or semi-deva.They can lie to
the monk easily because the monk also don't have real
dibba cakkhu to confirm their saying.Maybe some people
have to reborn as ghost for seven days,etc


--- rjkjp1 <rjkjp1@...> wrote:

> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, libris <libris@s...>
> wrote:
> > Robert,
> >
> > Basically, Ajahn Brahm (and the forest monks of
> Ajahn Chah) believe
> there is an antarabhava, partly from the numerous
> accounts in the
> Suttas, and according to Ajahn his personal
> experiences dealing with
> the dying in Thailand (I have not inquired further
> on this). Hoping he
> has written on this and will be published.
> >
> > ________
>  Dear Piya Tan
> Thanks. I am somewhat surprised as this particular
> view was one of
> those refuted at the third council some 2300 years
> ago.
>
> From the  Katthavatthu atthakattha *(translation
> Pali text society)
> "at that congress (the third council)the elder Tissa
> Moggalis son to
> avert al bases of heresy that ahd arsien and might
> in the future
> arise, analysed in detail the heads of discourse
> which had been
> delievered by the master into 500 heterodox and 500
> orthodox
> statements and so uttered the book of the bases of
> discourse@
>
>  (page 212 PTS)
> VIII2.
> Of an intermediate state (anatarabhava)
> Controverted state: That there is an intermediate
> state of existence.
> So (as for instance the Pubbaseliyas and sammitiyas)
> held that tehre
> is an interim state where a being awaits
> reconception..
> Teh conuter argument is based on the Exaleted ones
> dictum that there
> are three sates of becoming only - teh kama , the
> Rupabrahma  and the
> arupabraham worlds.. ""
>
> It goes on for a full two pages .
> Robertk
>
>
>
>
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Dear Robert, Sumana and friends,

thanks for such a lovely title. This discussion group adopts a open
model, and it is open in the following four ways:

1. All messages are placed in the open archive, and anyone (including
non-members, i.e. the public) can read it anytime, anywhere.

2. Members can post openly on all topics of interest to the group. At
the same time, members are free to raise questions and objections to
any posts, and pursue the discussion further.

3. Unlike many other online groups, many members in this group feel
free to share and discuss openly their personal lives, including
those in academic, monastic, or private research and study.

4. Participants feel free to learn and share according to the amount
of time and effort each is willing to commit. There is no obligation
whatsoever on the part of each member to make any contribution to the
group at all.

For the proper function of this model, we maintain a friendly and
respectful attitude towards others, irregardless of the knowledge and
experience of the participants, and irregardless of the social status
of the participants.

Btw, Sumana, why is there a recent change in name?


metta,
Yong Peng.


--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, paulocuana wrote:

Not only did I not have a specific monk in mind, I also did not have
a specific Western philosopher in mind.  Just exchanging ideas. It
was unfortunate that there was a name in the subject line.  It was
the subject line of the post I responded to and I wouldn't have
thought to change it since people look to the subject line for
responses to their posts and I don't like to edit what others write.

Pali - Every few days - [C262]
Warder - Exercise 21 (page 176)
Passages for Reading 2 (Part 22 of 41)

atha kho so Vaase.t.thaa satto tassa sattassa
di.t.th-aanugati.m aapajjamaano saali.m aahaasi sakid
eva dviihaaya, evam pi kira bho, saadhuu ti.
then / indeed / this / Vasettha (and Bharadvaja) /
being / of that / being / seen-imitation / acquiring /
rice / gathered / once / just / for two days / thus /
too / really / sir / good / (end-quote)
Then, Vasettha and Bharadvaja, this being in imitation
of the view of the other being gathered rice just once
for two days, thinking, “Friend, this is a really good
idea.”

atha kho Vaase.t.thaa a~n~nataro satto yena so satto
ten’ upasa”nkami, upasa”nkamitvaa ta.m satta.m etad
avoca:
then / indeed / Vasettha (and Bharadvaja) / a certain
/ being / towards / this / being / there / he
approached / having approached / to that / being /
this / he said
And later when another being came up to this being and
said to him,

ehi bho satta saal-aahaara.m gamissaamaa ti.
come / sir / being / rice-gathering / let us go /
(end-quote)
“Come on, friend, let’s go rice gathering,”

ala.m bho satta aahato me saali sakid eva dviihaayaa
ti.
enough / friend / being / gathered / by me / rice /
once / just / for two days / (end-quote)
he replied, “No, friend, enough rice has already been
gathered by me for two days.”

Metta, John

Dear Yong Peng,

My teacher Bhante Henepola Gunaratana, Nayaka Thera,(Bhante G.) gave
me a Pali name recently.  Where else can I use a Pali name? :)

With Metta,
Sumana


--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Yong Peng" <yongpeng.ong@g...>
> Btw, Sumana, why is there a recent change in name?
>
>
> metta,
> Yong Peng.
>
>
> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, paulocuana wrote:
>
> Not only did I not have a specific monk in mind, I also did not
have
> a specific Western philosopher in mind.  Just exchanging ideas. It
> was unfortunate that there was a name in the subject line.  It was
> the subject line of the post I responded to and I wouldn't have
> thought to change it since people look to the subject line for
> responses to their posts and I don't like to edit what others
write.

Dear Nina and friends,

thanks, Nina. I actually have something like this:

"Iti h'eta.m vijaanaahi pa.thamo so paraabhavo."
Thus you may indeed learn this: pa.thamo so paraabhavo.

As you said, without knowing the context, it is hard to translate the
phrase "pa.thamo so paraabhavo".

pa.thamo so = he who is first
paraabhavo = ruin, defeat, disgrace

There is also a relational issue, if I follow your reasoning, the
sentence would become:

"Iti h'eta.m vijaanaahi pa.thamo so paraabhavo."
Thus you may indeed learn this first: so paraabhavo.

However, I think 'pa.thamo' applies to 'so', as in, "pa.thamo so".

Another one I have just thought of is this:

"Iti h'eta.m vijaanaahi pa.thamo so paraabhavo."
Thus, may you, he who is first (and) defeat, learn this indeed.

What do you think?

metta,
Yong Peng.


--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

It is hard if we do not know the context.

> > 10. "Iti h'eta.m vijaanaahi pa.thamo so paraabhavo."
> > thus / indeed-this / may (you) learn / first / he / ruin

N: This defeat is the first that you should understand.

An Elementary Pali Course
Exercise 21-A: Translate into English.

14. Mahaase.t.thino corabhayena yathaasukha.m na supi.msu.
     multi-millionaires / with fear from thief / comfortably /
     did not sleep
     Having fear of the thief, the multi-millionaires did not
     sleep comfortably.

     mahaase.t.thino = mahaa+se.t.thino [K]
     corabhayena = corasmaa-bhayena [T]
     yathaasukha.m = yathaa-sukha [A]

15. "Attaa hi kira duddamo."
     self / indeed / truly / difficult to tame
     "Indeed self truly (is) difficult to tame."

     duddama = du-d-dama [A]


Exercise 21-B: Translate into Pali.

1. The viceroy became the king in due course.
    uparaajaa / bhavi / raajaa / yathaakkamena
    Uparaajaa yathaakkamena raajaa bhavi.

    uparaajaa = upa-raajaa [A]
    yathaakkamena = yathaa-k-kamena [A]

2. You should sit according to seniority.
    tumhe / nisiideyyaatha / yathaavu.d.dha.m
    Tumhe yathaavu.d.dha.m nisiideyyaatha.

    yathaavu.d.dha.m = yathaa-vu.d.dha.m [A]

3. Just when the sun had set they in due course arrived
    in the suburb.
    suriyattha`ngatey'eva / te / sampaapu.ni.msu / anupubbena /
    upanagara.m
    Suriyattha`ngatey'eva anupubbena te upanagara.m sampaapu.ni.msu.

    suriyattha`ngate = suriya-attha`ngate [T]
    anupubbena = anu-pubbena [A]
    upanagara.m = upa-nagara.m [A]
    sampaapu.ni.msu = sa.m-paapu.ni.msu [A]


    [A]vyayiibhaava
    [B]ahubbiihi
    [D]vanda
    [K]ammadhaaraya {[n]umerical}
    [T]appurisa


metta,
Yong Peng.

Dear Sumana and friends,

thanks. The name is cool.

metta,
Yong Peng.


--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, paulocuana wrote:

My teacher Bhante Henepola Gunaratana, Nayaka Thera,(Bhante G.) gave me
a Pali name recently.  Where else can I use a Pali name? :)

> Btw, Sumana, why is there a recent change in name?