Hi Gerard,

Trilinear translations such as those on the Anapanasati Sutta and the
Satipatthana Suttas can be found at http://dharmafarer.org.

With metta,

Ratna Lim



On Sat, Dec 15, 2012 at 2:16 AM, gerard_blok <gmblok@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Dear Pali friends,
>
> Could someone tell me where on the internet I can find trilinear Pali
> suttas?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Gerard
>
>
>



--
*hp (65) 8211 0879*

*The Minding Centre*
170 Upper Bukit Timah Road
#11-04 Bukit Timah Shopping Centre
Singapore 588179

Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.org
Sutta translation: http://dharmafarer.org


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks all for your information.
By trilinear is meant a version consisting of three lines: one line for the
original Pali text, one line with a literal translation of the words, and one
line with the translation of the original Pali.
(I ordered the Bilingual version of the Udana!)

Metta,
Gerard

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

a relevant publication regarding the topic of Paali as the name of a language
would also be

Crosby, Kate 2004: "The Origin of Paali as a Language Name in Medieval
Theravaada Literature", Journal of the Center for Buddhist Studies, Sri Lanka,
2: 70-116.



available on her webpage http://www.soas.ac.uk/staff/staff30813.php



with mettaa

Anaalayo



   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Stephen Hodge
   To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2012 3:26 PM
   Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: Paali - a name of the language



   Oxydymaxion wrote:

   >He wrote (quote): "On leur enseigne aussi la langue Balie,..." (I am not
   >willing to >translate it.)

   It's shorter in English:

   "They are also taught Pali"

   Best wishes,
   Stephen Hodge





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Pali friends,

This part is interesting.
I'm reading B.Bodhi's new AN translations book right now.

from AN 1.382 to AN 1.554, it seems to qualify many activities as being
"jhāna",
for example, AN 1.382 - AN 1.393

382*.* “accharāsaṅghātamattampi ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhu paṭhamaṃ
jhānaṃ
bhāveti, ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave — ‘bhikkhu arittajjhāno viharati,
satthusāsanakaro ovādapatikaro, amoghaṃ raṭṭhapiṇḍaṃ bhuñjati’.
ko pana vādo
ye naṃ bahulīkarontī”ti!

♦ 383-389*.* “accharāsaṅghātamattampi ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dutiyaṃ
jhānaṃ
bhāveti ... pe ... tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ bhāveti ... pe ... catutthaṃ
jhānaṃ
bhāveti ... pe ... mettaṃ cetovimuttiṃ bhāveti ... pe ... karuṇaṃ
cetovimuttiṃ bhāveti ... pe ... muditaṃ cetovimuttiṃ bhāveti ... pe ...
upekkhaṃ cetovimuttiṃ bhāveti ... pe ....

♦ 390-393*.* kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya
loke
abhijjhādomanassaṃ; vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati ... pe ... citte
cittānupassī viharati ... pe ... dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati ātāpī
sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ.


up to AN 1.564, they all share, if I'm interpreting the "pe" and ellisions
correctly, this ending clause of "... he is called a bhikkhu who is not
devoid of jhāna ..."
In the noble eightfold path, sammā samādhi is defined as the 4 jhānas, but
how should we understand the "not being devoid of jhāna" as it's used in
these AN passages?

metta,
Frank


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Frank,

This is interesting.

I think that in each of such practices, the practitioner's mind must be in some
state of concentration, otherwise the practice cannot be done.

The level of concentration in each practice can be different, but is still
considered jhaana, even though it may be just momentary jhaana.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Metta,
Chanida

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Frank K <frank48k@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Pali friends,
>
> This part is interesting.
> I'm reading B.Bodhi's new AN translations book right now.
>
> from AN 1.382 to AN 1.554, it seems to qualify many activities as being
> "jhāna",
> for example, AN 1.382 - AN 1.393
>
> 382*.* “accharāsaṅghātamattampi ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhu paṭhamaṃ
jhānaṃ
> bhāveti, ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave �" ‘bhikkhu arittajjhāno viharati,
> satthusāsanakaro ovādapatikaro, amoghaṃ raṭṭhapiṇḍaṃ
bhuñjati’. ko pana vādo
> ye naṃ bahulīkarontī”ti!
>
> ♦ 383-389*.* “accharāsaṅghātamattampi ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dutiyaṃ
jhānaṃ
> bhāveti ... pe ... tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ bhāveti ... pe ... catutthaṃ
jhānaṃ
> bhāveti ... pe ... mettaṃ cetovimuttiṃ bhāveti ... pe ... karuṇaṃ
> cetovimuttiṃ bhāveti ... pe ... muditaṃ cetovimuttiṃ bhāveti ... pe
...
> upekkhaṃ cetovimuttiṃ bhāveti ... pe ....
>
> ♦ 390-393*.* kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā
vineyya loke
> abhijjhādomanassaṃ; vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati ... pe ... citte
> cittānupassī viharati ... pe ... dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati ātāpī
> sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ.
>
>
> up to AN 1.564, they all share, if I'm interpreting the "pe" and ellisions
> correctly, this ending clause of "... he is called a bhikkhu who is not
> devoid of jhāna ..."
> In the noble eightfold path, sammā samādhi is defined as the 4 jhānas, but
> how should we understand the "not being devoid of jhāna" as it's used in
> these AN passages?
>
> metta,
> Frank
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Dear Chanida and Frank,
Op 24-dec-2012, om 7:37 heeft Chanida het volgende geschreven:

> I think that in each of such practices, the practitioner's mind
> must be in some state of concentration, otherwise the practice
> cannot be done.
------
N: As I understand, it is always right understanding that is
foremost, also when developing samatha to the stage of jhaana. If one
does not know the citta that arises, kusala or akusala, how could one
develop samatha.
As to the development of vipassanaa, insight, understanding of
whatever appears now is developed, so that one knows that it is just
a reality, a dhamma. Lobha may appear: it is just a reality. Sadness
may appear: it is just a reality, a dhamma. It is not owned by a
person, there is no person there. Visible object appears: it is only
a dhamma, not a person in the visible object. Very gradually we can
understand what anattaa means.
I cannot read the quoted text by Frank, it is all warbled. Neither
can I look up the text since I do not have yet Venerable Bodhi's
translation.
------
Nina.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear
Friends,
 
In the Paramatthajotikā commentary on the origin of the Cundasutta (Sn vv
83-90) , there is a
long compound which I can not make sense of
 
attajjhāsaya-parajjhāsaya-aṭṭhuppatti-pucchāvasikabhedato  (PjII 1, 159)


which is giving a summary of the
origin of the sutta. I give a rough translation of the  story below. If anyone
can help with this
compound, I would appreciate it. Also does anyone know what kuñcika-tthavikāya
(lit: “key-purse”)
means? Apparently this is the purse that the monk carries his bowl in, but why
kuñcika? (“key”)? It is in this bag that
the bad monk places the bowl he wishes to steal.
 
Mettā, Bryan
 
“I ask the sage of abundant wisdom,” so begins the Cundasutta. What is its
origin? In brief,
as far as attajjhāsaya-parajjhāsaya-aṭṭhuppattipucchāvasikabhedato (?)
regarding the four origins of this sutta, the origin depends on the (four)
questions.
But in detail, at one time the Blessed One, wandering about
on a journey amongst the Mallas, together with a large group of monks arrived
in Pāvā. There the Blessed One was living in the mango grove in Pāvā of
Cunda,
the smith’s son. From here as far as, “Now the Blessed  one in the forenoon
dressed himself and
taking his bowl and robe together with the community of monks went to Cunda’s
house and sat  down on the seat prepared”
(as per DN 2, 189) is  just according to
what has been said (āgatanayeneva) in
the sutta.
 
Thus, when the Blessed One had sat down together with the
community of monks, Cunda the smith’s son, while serving the community of
monks
with the Buddha at his head, presented beautiful (suvaṇṇa or golden) bowls
to the monks. Since the religious rule is
not very well known, some monks accepted the beautiful bowls and others
didn’t.
A stone bowl was accepted by the Blessed One, but Buddhas do not accept a
second one. In that place there was a certain monk who accepted a beautiful
bowl  for his food worth a thousand
(coins), and, with the intention to steal it, he placed it in his key-purse
(kuñcika-t-thavikāya?). Cunda, having
waited on the monks and washed their hands and feet, paying homage to the
Buddha, observing the community of monks, he saw that monk, but having seen
him, it was like not seeing him and he did not say anything to the Blessed One
or the elders out of respect, thinking, “let there not be a manner of speaking
by those who hold wrong views.” He, wanting to know about monks who were yoked
to their vows (restraints), or such who had broken them, approached the Blessed
One at night and asked, “I ask the seer…” [and so the beginning of the
sutta]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Nina and Frank,

Thanks for your comment, Nina. If you have access to a PTS edition of the Pali
canon, I give book and page reference below so that you know which passage Frank
referred to.

If I understood Frank correctly, his question involves the compound
'arittajjhaano' (not devoid of jhaana) in the stock phrase "Arittajjhaano
viharati satthusaasanakaro ovaadapatikaro amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m bhu~njati"
in Jhaana-vagga of AN volume I (AN I 38-43). Here the Buddha said that a monk
who pursues/develops any of the following practices, even for a brief moment, is
called 'a monk who is not devoid of jhaana, who acts upon the teaching of the
Teacher, who responds to his advice, who does not eat the country's almsfood in
vain.' The practices mentioned are: any level of the four jhaanas, mettaa
cetovimutti or else upto upekkkhaa cetovimutti, any of the four foundations of
mindfulness, chanda and viriya in regard to any of the four padhaanas
(sa.mvara-padhaana, pahaana-padhaana, bhaavanaa-padhaana and
anurakkhanaa-padhaana), etc.

The same expression is found in AN I 10-11, where the same is said for a monk
who pursues/develops metta-citta.

You can find these in Syamra.t.tha edition vol. 20 p. 20 and pp.50-55 and in MMR
Thai translation of Pali canon and commentaries book 32 pp.106-107 and book 33,
pp.214-219.

Frank asked whether all those practices can be considered 'jhaana' as expressed
by the compound 'arittajjhaano.' (Frank, please correct me if I misunderstood
your question.) My answer was that probably the term 'jhaana' in the compound
refers, not directly to those practices, but to the level of necessary
concentration associated with those practices.

Here, I think the right view is already assumed,  and the practices already
right-practices. Otherwise the Buddha would not have praised the practitioner
(monk) who pursues such practices as "satthu saasanakaro ovaadapatikaro amogha.m
ra.t.thapi.n.da.m bhu~njati"

I wish you and all a Happy New Year. :)

Metta,
Chanida

Dear Chanida and NIna and all,


Earlier in AN 1.53 (English is bodhi trans.)
AN 1.53: “Bhikkhus, if for just the time of a finger snap a bhikkhu pursues
a mind of loving-kindness, he is called a bhikkhu who is not devoid of
jhāna, who acts upon the teaching of the Teacher, who responds to his
advice, and who does not eat the country’s almsfood in vain. How  much
more, then, those who cultivate it!”

At that point as I was reading, it wasn't so puzzling, since metta bhāvana
is a well known way to launch into first jhāna.

At AN 1.382, it starts off reasonably enough, with the four jhanas as the
objects of not "being devoid of jhāna", then mentions not just mettā
bhāvana but all 4 brahmavihāras. Then it mentions the 4 satipatthana, 4
aspects of right effort, all part o the samādhi group, so again not too
surprising and still closely related to jhāna. Then it starts to enumerate
more topics under "not devoid of jhana",  what seems like most of the 37
bodhipakkiya, and then even 10 kasinas for samatha development, vipassana
themes, and it seems like everything and the kitchen sink.

So what is meant by these passages on Jhāna?

These are the possibilities I can think of:

    1. jhāna is meant here as meditation in general, and not specifically
    sammā samādhi definition for four jhānas.
    2. jhāna (as sammā samādhi) is a prerequisite to bring all of those
    meditation topics mention to their culmination.
    3. sammā samādhi, jhāna and the entirety of the eightfold noble path are
    closely intertwined, so that no part of the buddha's system of practice can
    be devoid of jhāna (sammā samādhi) if one expects to succeed.

But none of those explanations feels very satisfying. Sometimes the suttas
seem amazingly precise and specific, and other times like this example,
vague and confounding.

p.s. Nina, I posted my original question and this post as well on this page
here in case the pali diacritics don't appear properly.

https://sites.google.com/a/audtip.org/pali/pali-discussion-group-questions


Metta,

frank





On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Dear Chanida and Frank,
> Op 24-dec-2012, om 7:37 heeft Chanida het volgende geschreven:
>
>
> > I think that in each of such practices, the practitioner's mind
> > must be in some state of concentration, otherwise the practice
> > cannot be done.
> ------
> N: As I understand, it is always right understanding that is
> foremost, also when developing samatha to the stage of jhaana. If one
> does not know the citta that arises, kusala or akusala, how could one
> develop samatha.
> As to the development of vipassanaa, insight, understanding of
> whatever appears now is developed, so that one knows that it is just
> a reality, a dhamma. Lobha may appear: it is just a reality. Sadness
> may appear: it is just a reality, a dhamma. It is not owned by a
> person, there is no person there. Visible object appears: it is only
> a dhamma, not a person in the visible object. Very gradually we can
> understand what anattaa means.
> I cannot read the quoted text by Frank, it is all warbled. Neither
> can I look up the text since I do not have yet Venerable Bodhi's
> translation.
> ------
> Nina.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The reason is clear to me, since (for me) jhana simply means meditation.

I've included this in my book on jhana and
samadhi. It's still growing as more evidences and
ideas to connect them come up. I hope I don't spend my whole life on this!

Frank K wrote thus at 08:11 AM 22-12-12:
>Dear Pali friends,
>
>This part is interesting.
>I'm reading B.Bodhi's new AN translations book right now.
>
>from AN 1.382 to AN 1.554, it seems to qualify many activities as being
>"jhāna",
>for example, AN 1.382 - AN 1.393

<snip>

I was confused by your referencing though. How did you get "1.382" for example?
On NDB, it's AN 1.53. Going by PTS, it's A I.11.

kb

Kumara Bhikkhu wrote thus at 04:06 PM 05-01-13:
>The reason is clear to me, since (for me) jhana simply means meditation.
>
>I've included this in my book on jhana and
>samadhi. It's still growing as more evidences
>and ideas to connect them come up. I hope I don't spend my whole life on this!
>
>Frank K wrote thus at 08:11 AM 22-12-12:
>>Dear Pali friends,
>>
>>This part is interesting.
>>I'm reading B.Bodhi's new AN translations book right now.
>>
>>from AN 1.382 to AN 1.554, it seems to qualify many activities as being
>>"jhāna",
>>for example, AN 1.382 - AN 1.393
>
><snip>

Never mind... I found out that you're using CS
reference, which is correctly 1.382. On NDB it's 1.394.

I also referred it to the wrong place. Anyway,
the one I referred to has the first occurrence of "arittajjhaano" there.

Kumara Bhikkhu wrote thus at 04:10 PM 05-01-13:
>I was confused by your referencing though. How
>did you get "1.382" for example?
>On NDB, it's AN 1.53. Going by PTS, it's A I.11.
>
>kb
>
>Kumara Bhikkhu wrote thus at 04:06 PM 05-01-13:
>>The reason is clear to me, since (for me) jhana simply means meditation.
>>
>>I've included this in my book on jhana and
>>samadhi. It's still growing as more evidences
>>and ideas to connect them come up. I hope I don't spend my whole life on this!
>>
>>Frank K wrote thus at 08:11 AM 22-12-12:
>>>Dear Pali friends,
>>>
>>>This part is interesting.
>>>I'm reading B.Bodhi's new AN translations book right now.
>>>
>>>from AN 1.382 to AN 1.554, it seems to qualify many activities as being
>>>"jhāna",
>>>for example, AN 1.382 - AN 1.393
>>
>><snip>

Dear Pali friends,

A very happy new year.

You can also read something about what Chanida has stated below in Gethin,
"The Buddhist Path of Awakening," 2001: 269, where he says the list totals
191 objects of meditation (Bodhi's latest tr of Anguttara however says the
list is only 181 (A:B 1.394-574), ie the whole of the Accharra Sa.gghaa.ta
Vagga.

Aside, I wonder by the "World Tipitaka" of Bangkok is now offline.
Previously, we click here:
http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/
we are able to access this excellent Tipitaka website. I hope it will get
back online, or better, have a CD version like CSCD.

With metta,

Piya


On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 6:15 AM, Chanida <jchanida@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Dear Nina and Frank,
>
> Thanks for your comment, Nina. If you have access to a PTS edition of the
> Pali canon, I give book and page reference below so that you know which
> passage Frank referred to.
>
> If I understood Frank correctly, his question involves the compound
> 'arittajjhaano' (not devoid of jhaana) in the stock phrase "Arittajjhaano
> viharati satthusaasanakaro ovaadapatikaro amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m
> bhu~njati" in Jhaana-vagga of AN volume I (AN I 38-43). Here the Buddha
> said that a monk who pursues/develops any of the following practices, even
> for a brief moment, is called 'a monk who is not devoid of jhaana, who acts
> upon the teaching of the Teacher, who responds to his advice, who does not
> eat the country's almsfood in vain.' The practices mentioned are: any level
> of the four jhaanas, mettaa cetovimutti or else upto upekkkhaa cetovimutti,
> any of the four foundations of mindfulness, chanda and viriya in regard to
> any of the four padhaanas (sa.mvara-padhaana, pahaana-padhaana,
> bhaavanaa-padhaana and anurakkhanaa-padhaana), etc.
>
> The same expression is found in AN I 10-11, where the same is said for a
> monk who pursues/develops metta-citta.
>
> You can find these in Syamra.t.tha edition vol. 20 p. 20 and pp.50-55 and
> in MMR Thai translation of Pali canon and commentaries book 32 pp.106-107
> and book 33, pp.214-219.
>
> Frank asked whether all those practices can be considered 'jhaana' as
> expressed by the compound 'arittajjhaano.' (Frank, please correct me if I
> misunderstood your question.) My answer was that probably the term 'jhaana'
> in the compound refers, not directly to those practices, but to the level
> of necessary concentration associated with those practices.
>
> Here, I think the right view is already assumed, and the practices already
> right-practices. Otherwise the Buddha would not have praised the
> practitioner (monk) who pursues such practices as "satthu saasanakaro
> ovaadapatikaro amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m bhu~njati"
>
> I wish you and all a Happy New Year. :)
>
> Metta,
> Chanida
>
>
>



--
*hp (65) 8211 0879*

*The Minding Centre*
170 Upper Bukit Timah Road
#11-04 Bukit Timah Shopping Centre
Singapore 588179

Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.org
Sutta translation: http://dharmafarer.org


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Interesting in this connection are the ideas about meditation and jhana of the
American monk Vimalaramsi (dhammasukha.org).

According to him the idea of jhana as absorption, or even, concentration
meditation, which is, in vipassana-circles, the common vue, is utterly false. It
is based on the commentaries, he says, in particular on the Visuddhimagga, but
not on the Sutta’s.

Metta,

Gerard Blok,
Amsterdam





From: Kumara Bhikkhu
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2013 9:06 AM
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Pali] All of that is considered Jhāna ?


The reason is clear to me, since (for me) jhana simply means meditation.

I've included this in my book on jhana and
samadhi. It's still growing as more evidences and
ideas to connect them come up. I hope I don't spend my whole life on this!

Frank K wrote thus at 08:11 AM 22-12-12:
>Dear Pali friends,
>
>This part is interesting.
>I'm reading B.Bodhi's new AN translations book right now.
>
>from AN 1.382 to AN 1.554, it seems to qualify many activities as being
>"jhāna",
>for example, AN 1.382 - AN 1.393







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

wondering why my message didn't come through..

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 14:40:46 +0100
Von: "Dieter Moeller" <Kalama@...>
An: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: Re: [Pali] All of that is considered  JhÄ?na ?

Hi Gerard,

you wrote:

"Interesting in this connection are the ideas about meditation and jhana of the
American monk Vimalaramsi (dhammasukha.org).

According to him the idea of jhana as absorption, or even, concentration
meditation, which is, in vipassana-circles, the common vue, is utterly false. It
is based on the commentaries, he says, in particular on the Visuddhimagga, but
not on the Sutta’s."

D: I wonder whether he put it this way, as it is obvious according to the suttas
, that within the first Jhana the 5 senses media is absorbed , and in the second
, the 6xt sense .


with Metta Dieter



-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 11:58:47 +0100
> Von: "Gerard" <gmblok@...>
> An: Pali@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: Re: [Pali] All of that is considered  Jhāna ?

> Interesting in this connection are the ideas about meditation and jhana of
> the American monk Vimalaramsi (dhammasukha.org).
>
> According to him the idea of jhana as absorption, or even, concentration
> meditation, which is, in vipassana-circles, the common vue, is utterly
> false. It is based on the commentaries, he says, in particular on the
> Visuddhimagga, but not on the Sutta’s.
>
> Metta,
>
> Gerard Blok,
> Amsterdam
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Kumara Bhikkhu
> Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2013 9:06 AM
> To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Pali] All of that is considered Jhāna ?
>
>
> The reason is clear to me, since (for me) jhana simply means meditation.
>
> I've included this in my book on jhana and
> samadhi. It's still growing as more evidences and
> ideas to connect them come up. I hope I don't spend my whole life on this!
>
> Frank K wrote thus at 08:11 AM 22-12-12:
> >Dear Pali friends,
> >
> >This part is interesting.
> >I'm reading B.Bodhi's new AN translations book right now.
> >
> >from AN 1.382 to AN 1.554, it seems to qualify many activities as being
> >"jhāna",
> >for example, AN 1.382 - AN 1.393
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Dear Piya,

This book looks like it's out of print. Amazon sells it for $70 USA
dollars. Is there any plan to publish it as an ebook?
http://www.amazon.com/The-Buddhist-Path-Awakening-Bodhi-Pakkhiya/dp/1851682856/r\
ef=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1357487408&sr=8-7&keywords=The+Buddhist+Path+of+Awakening

Not long ago I asked Rod at Suttacentral about Worldtipitaka's Thai canon
being offline. It's a known issue, he doesn't know when they will be back
online, but that he hoped Suttacentral would have an alternative within a
few weeks.

Digital Pali reader has the thai tipitaka as an optional download, I don't
know if it's the same version as World Tipitaka.

Speaking of digital tipitaka's, I wonder why everyone doesn't get together,
put the Burmese, Thai, Sri Lankan and whatever other pali versions of the
tipitaka in one central repository, so it would be easy to have online
tools that for example show in color the textual differences between the
different tipitaka's.

metta,
Frank

On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Piya Tan <dharmafarer@...> wrote:

> The Buddhist Path of Awakening


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I fully agree with that. Richard Shankman's book
"The Experience of Samadhi" made this very clear
and convincing. Theravada (Visuddhimagga) jhana
is not the same as Early Buddhist (Sutta) jhana.

For a Theravadin diehard, It's a pretty difficult pill to swallow!

kb

Gerard wrote thus at 06:58 PM 05-01-13:
>Interesting in this connection are the ideas
>about meditation and jhana of the American monk Vimalaramsi (dhammasukha.org).
>
>According to him the idea of jhana as
>absorption, or even, concentration meditation,
>which is, in vipassana-circles, the common vue,
>is utterly false. It is based on the
>commentaries, he says, in particular on the
>Visuddhimagga, but not on the Sutta’s.
>
>Metta,
>
>Gerard Blok,
>Amsterdam
>
>
>
>
>
>From: Kumara Bhikkhu
>Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2013 9:06 AM
>To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Pali] All of that is considered Jhāna ?
>
>
>The reason is clear to me, since (for me) jhana simply means meditation.
>
>I've included this in my book on jhana and
>samadhi. It's still growing as more evidences and
>ideas to connect them come up. I hope I don't spend my whole life on this!
>
>Frank K wrote thus at 08:11 AM 22-12-12:
> >Dear Pali friends,
> >
> >This part is interesting.
> >I'm reading B.Bodhi's new AN translations book right now.
> >
> >from AN 1.382 to AN 1.554, it seems to qualify many activities as being
> >"jhāna",
> >for example, AN 1.382 - AN 1.393

Hi Dieter,
could you be a bit more explicit:
what is the Pali word for “absorbed” , and can you mention a sutta, an exact
place if possible, where is told what you say?
Metta,
Gerard

From: Dieter Moeller
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 3:54 AM
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Pali] All of that is considered JhÄ?na ?


wondering why my message didn't come through..

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 14:40:46 +0100
Von: "Dieter Moeller" mailto:Kalama%40gmx.net>
An: mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com
Betreff: Re: [Pali] All of that is considered JhÄ?na ?

Hi Gerard,

you wrote:

"Interesting in this connection are the ideas about meditation and jhana of the
American monk Vimalaramsi (dhammasukha.org).

According to him the idea of jhana as absorption, or even, concentration
meditation, which is, in vipassana-circles, the common vue, is utterly false. It
is based on the commentaries, he says, in particular on the Visuddhimagga, but
not on the Sutta’s."

D: I wonder whether he put it this way, as it is obvious according to the suttas
, that within the first Jhana the 5 senses media is absorbed , and in the second
, the 6xt sense .

with Metta Dieter

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 11:58:47 +0100
> Von: "Gerard" mailto:gmblok%40xs4all.nl>
> An: mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: Re: [Pali] All of that is considered Jhāna ?

> Interesting in this connection are the ideas about meditation and jhana of
> the American monk Vimalaramsi (dhammasukha.org).
>
> According to him the idea of jhana as absorption, or even, concentration
> meditation, which is, in vipassana-circles, the common vue, is utterly
> false. It is based on the commentaries, he says, in particular on the
> Visuddhimagga, but not on the Sutta’s.
>
> Metta,
>
> Gerard Blok,
> Amsterdam
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Kumara Bhikkhu
> Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2013 9:06 AM
> To: mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Pali] All of that is considered Jhāna ?
>
>
> The reason is clear to me, since (for me) jhana simply means meditation.
>
> I've included this in my book on jhana and
> samadhi. It's still growing as more evidences and
> ideas to connect them come up. I hope I don't spend my whole life on this!
>
> Frank K wrote thus at 08:11 AM 22-12-12:
> >Dear Pali friends,
> >
> >This part is interesting.
> >I'm reading B.Bodhi's new AN translations book right now.
> >
> >from AN 1.382 to AN 1.554, it seems to qualify many activities as being
> >"jhāna",
> >for example, AN 1.382 - AN 1.393
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dieter Moeller wrote thus at 10:54 AM 07-01-13:
>D: I wonder whether he put it this way, as it is obvious according
>to the suttas , that within the first Jhana the 5 senses media is
>absorbed , and in the second , the 6xt sense .

I'm interested to know where you find the Suttas say that.

kb

Dear Ven. KB,
With the Pali sutta description of jhāna, 16 steps of ānāpāna, etc.,  being
so terse, it's hard to know exactly what the Buddha's instructions on jhāna
actually entails. So it may be that what constitutes jhāna is broader than
we may think. But even using an attitude of keeping the definition broad
and open, it still seems that the Vism. is describing a different practice
for development of jhāna than the terse Pali sutta passages. Another
example of the Buddha's terse instructions being frustratingly lacking in
detail is the development of knowledge and vision, especially the 3 higher
knowledges. In one of the suttas on iddhipada, the Buddha said a couple
lines on developing the perception of light, in all directions, so night is
like day, day is like night. And the next line he is talking about the
supernormal powers already, with no details on how one gets there. Whatever
problems people have with Vism., you have to give them credit for the fact
that using the detailed instructions in the Vism. on Jhāna and supernormal
power,  there are practitioners today who were able to do it.

metta,
frank

On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 8:38 PM, Kumara Bhikkhu <kumara.bhikkhu@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> I fully agree with that. Richard Shankman's book
> "The Experience of Samadhi" made this very clear
> and convincing. Theravada (Visuddhimagga) jhana
> is not the same as Early Buddhist (Sutta) jhana.
>
> For a Theravadin diehard, It's a pretty difficult pill to swallow!
>
> kb
>
> Gerard wrote thus at 06:58 PM 05-01-13:
> >Interesting in this connection are the ideas
> >about meditation and jhana of the American monk Vimalaramsi (
> dhammasukha.org).
> >
> >According to him the idea of jhana as
> >absorption, or even, concentration meditation,
> >which is, in vipassana-circles, the common vue,
> >is utterly false. It is based on the
> >commentaries, he says, in particular on the
> >Visuddhimagga, but not on the Sutta’s.
> >
> >Metta,
> >
> >Gerard Blok,
> >Amsterdam
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >From: Kumara Bhikkhu
> >Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2013 9:06 AM
> >To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [Pali] All of that is considered JhÄ na ?
> >
> >
> >The reason is clear to me, since (for me) jhana simply means meditation.
> >
> >I've included this in my book on jhana and
> >samadhi. It's still growing as more evidences and
> >ideas to connect them come up. I hope I don't spend my whole life on this!
> >
> >Frank K wrote thus at 08:11 AM 22-12-12:
> > >Dear Pali friends,
> > >
> > >This part is interesting.
> > >I'm reading B.Bodhi's new AN translations book right now.
> > >
> > >from AN 1.382 to AN 1.554, it seems to qualify many activities as being
> > >"jhÄ na",
> > >for example, AN 1.382 - AN 1.393
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Frank K wrote thus at 12:07 AM 07-01-13:
>Not long ago I asked Rod at Suttacentral about Worldtipitaka's Thai canon
>being offline. It's a known issue, he doesn't know when they will be back
>online, but that he hoped Suttacentral would have an alternative within a
>few weeks.

Wonder if anyone has managed to download the whole site.

I was told that originally the plan as to have WT distributed in CDs
(like CSCD) but somehow the people in charge (read 'in power')
changed their mind about it. Since it's a university project for a
Buddhist cause in a Buddhist country, I suppose it must be publicly
funded. So, it seems Improper to withhold it from the public.


>Digital Pali reader has the thai tipitaka as an optional download, I don't
>know if it's the same version as World Tipitaka.

DPR is based on CS. The developer may have made some corrections to it.


>Speaking of digital tipitaka's, I wonder why everyone doesn't get together,
>put the Burmese, Thai, Sri Lankan and whatever other pali versions of the
>tipitaka in one central repository, so it would be easy to have online
>tools that for example show in color the textual differences between the
>different tipitaka's.

Isn't that's already done? It's called the World Tipitaka.

kb

Frank K wrote thus at 03:07 AM 12-01-13:
>Dear Ven. KB,
>With the Pali sutta description of jhāna, 16
>steps of ānāpāna, etc.,  being
>so terse, it's hard to know exactly what the Buddha's instructions on jhāna
>actually entails. So it may be that what constitutes jhāna is broader than
>we may think. But even using an attitude of keeping the definition broad
>and open, it still seems that the Vism. is describing a different practice
>for development of jhāna than the terse Pali sutta passages.

You're not the first to notice this. I have this is my book:

Among those who have written on this matter, the
earliest I have found is Ayodhya Prasad Pradhan1
who wrote the following in his book The Buddha�s
System of Meditation (Sterling Publishers) published in 1986!

      In the Buddhist Canon itself the process of attaining it
      (jhana) is not given in a practical way, in spite of the
      frequent repetitions of the formula-like description of
      this �Jhana� throughout the Canon. The tradition
      preserved in commentaries, especially in Buddhaghosa�s
      work entitled the �Visuddhi-magga�, or the Path of
      Purification, in Pali, seems to have developed a system
      of its own�. After comparing the latter with the former,
      anyone who intends to devote or has already devoted, his
      time and energy in practising the meditation of early
      Buddhism and in unravelling its secrets, will not fail, I
      believe, to detect the contrast.

1Ayodhya Prasad Pradhan (b. 1904) is a well known
Nepalese Buddhist scholar of Pali language,
scripture, philosophy and literature�. A
practitioner of Hatha Yoga in his younger days
and later Laya Yoga, he came to discover the
superiority of the Buddha�s system of meditation
over the other known systems and practised it. (From the book jacket)

>Another
>example of the Buddha's terse instructions being frustratingly lacking in
>detail is the development of knowledge and vision, especially the 3 higher
>knowledges. In one of the suttas on iddhipada, the Buddha said a couple
>lines on developing the perception of light, in all directions, so night is
>like day, day is like night. And the next line he is talking about the
>supernormal powers already, with no details on how one gets there. Whatever
>problems people have with Vism., you have to give them credit for the fact
>that using the detailed instructions in the Vism. on Jhāna and supernormal
>power,  there are practitioners today who were able to do it.

Agreed. A notable person is Dipa Ma. She however
developed them only after she became accomplished
in the more important area, and gave them up
after some time. Many people these days though
get carried away by this detour. Who, without
sufficient spiritual maturity, wouldn't?

kb

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:29:14 +0800
>To: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
>From: Kumara Bhikkhu <kumara.bhikkhu@...>
>Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: [Pali] All of that is considered Jhana ?
>Cc: gmblok@...
>
>Thanks for clarifying, Dieter.
>
>What you provided from various sources is a
>mixture of description of Sutta jhana and Vism
>Jhana, which is what people in general get too,
>which is why it is confusing to many people.
>
>Referring to this translation in Nyanatiloka's
>dictionary: "Detached from sensual objects, o
>monks, detached from unwholesome consciousness,
>attached with thought-conception (vitakka) and
>discursive thinking (vicāra), born of
>detachment (vivekaja) and filled with rapture
>(pīti) and joy (sukha) he enters the first
>absorption," I suppose you meant the part that
>says "sensual objects", right? If so, please
>consider that it's translating "kama" (which
>Ajahn Thanissaro would rather have as
>"sensuality", which I think is a very accurate
>translation). In no way does it say that one is
>cut off from the 5 sense media (indriya).
>
>Also, translating 'piti' as 'rapture' is fine
>for Vism Jhana, but not for Sutta jhana. 'Joy' will do.
>
>Another point: 'vivekajam pitisukham" makes more
>sense when translated together as a noun phrase:
>joy and happiness born of seclusion", while for
>second jhana there's "joy and happiness born of composure (samadhijam)".
>
>Interestingly in Aj Thanissaro's more recent
>translations, he uses 'composure' for 'samadhi'
>here too, but has not changed his earlier translations.
>
>kb
>
>Dieter Moeller wrote thus at 09:16 AM 14-01-13:
>>D: absorbtion ( I understand is the common
>>translation) and burning up can be synonymously
>>used (e.g. nourishment of fire) in respect to
>>first Jhana: sensual objects =5senses media
>>,second Jhana: thinking/ mental activity
>>(subsiding of thought-conception and discursive thinking).
>>I would prefe German "ausblenden" English blank out, fade out/down, blind out
>>
>>PTS:Jhāna1 (nt.) [from jhāyati,1 BSk.
>>dhyāna. The (popular etym -- ) expln of jhāna
>>is given by Bdhgh at Vism 150 as follows:
>>"ārammaṇ' ûpanijjhānato paccanīka --
>>jhāpanato vā jhānaŋ," i.e. called jh. from
>>meditation on objects & from burning up anything adverse] literally meditation
>>
>>Nyanatiloka Buddhist Dictionary :
>>�The stereotype text, often met with in the Suttas, runs as follows:
>>(1) "Detached from sensual objects, o monks,
>>detached from unwholesome consciousness,
>>attached with thought-conception (vitakka) and
>>discursive thinking (vicāra), born of
>>detachment (vivekaja) and filled with rapture
>>(pīti) and joy (sukha) he enters the first absorption.
>>
>>(2) "After the subsiding of thought-conception
>>and discursive thinking, and by gaining inner
>>tranquility and oneness of mind, he enters into
>>a state free from thought-conception and
>>discursive thinking, the second absorption,
>>which is born of concentration (samādhi), and
>>filled with rapture (pīti) and joy (sukha)."
>>
>>PTS provides following sources :
>>The jhānas are discussed in extenso & in
>>various combinations as regards theory &
>>practice at: D i.34 sq.; 73 sq.; S ii. 210 sq.;
>>iv.217 sq., 263 sq.; v.213 sq.; M i.276 sq.,
>>350 sq., 454 sq.; A i.53, 163; ii.126; iii.394
>>sq.; iv.409 sq.; v.157 sq.; Vin iii.4; Nd2 on
>>Sn 1119 & s.v.; Ps i.97 sq.; ii.169 sq.; Vbh
>>257 sq.; 263 sq.; 279 sq.; Vism 88, 415. --
>>They are frequently mentioned either as a set,
>>or singly, when often the set is implied (as in
>>the case of the 4th jh.). Mentioned as jh. 1 --
>>4 e. g. at Vin i.104; ii.161 (foll. by
>>sotāpanna, etc.); D ii.156, 186; iii.78, 131,
>>222; S ii.278 (nikāmalābhin); A ii.36 (id.);
>>iii.354; S iv.299; v.307 sq.; M i.21, 41, 159,
>>203, 247, 398, 521; ii.15, 37; Sn 69, 156, 985;
>>Dh 372; J i.139; VvA 38; PvA 163. --
>>Separately: the 1st: A iv.422; v.135; M i.246,
>>294; Miln 289; 1st -- 3rd: A iii.323; M i.181;
>>1st & 2nd: M ii.28; 4th: A ii.41; iii.325;
>>v.31; D iii.270; VvA 4. -- See also Mrs. Rh. D.
>>Buddh. Psych. (Quest Series) p. 107 sq.; Dhs.
>>trsl. p. 52 sq.; Index to Saŋyutta N. for more refs.; also Kasiṇa.
>>
>>I suppose that misunderstandings occur when
>>theory (  contemplation of samma samadhi  as an
>>object of contemplation within the framework of
>>Maha SatiPatthana)  and practise --see standard texts-  is not distinguished.
>>
>>Further investigation of this issue may be benefitial.
>>
>>
>>With Metta Dieter
>>
>>P.S. I wrote to the list owner concerning the
>>delay of postings,  no answer so far

Dear Ven. Kumara and Gerard,

thanks for your comments.

  I like to come back to this matter when I am return from my present travel,
having my usual sources available then...

with Metta Dieter

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:44:11 +0800
> Von: Kumara Bhikkhu <kumara.bhikkhu@...>
> An: Pali@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: [Pali] All of that is considered  Jhana ?

>
> >Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:29:14 +0800
> >To: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
> >From: Kumara Bhikkhu <kumara.bhikkhu@...>
> >Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: [Pali] All of that is considered Jhana ?
> >Cc: gmblok@...
> >
> >Thanks for clarifying, Dieter.
> >
> >What you provided from various sources is a
> >mixture of description of Sutta jhana and Vism
> >Jhana, which is what people in general get too,
> >which is why it is confusing to many people.
> >
> >Referring to this translation in Nyanatiloka's
> >dictionary: "Detached from sensual objects, o
> >monks, detached from unwholesome consciousness,
> >attached with thought-conception (vitakka) and
> >discursive thinking (vicÄ?ra), born of
> >detachment (vivekaja) and filled with rapture
> >(pīti) and joy (sukha) he enters the first
> >absorption," I suppose you meant the part that
> >says "sensual objects", right? If so, please
> >consider that it's translating "kama" (which
> >Ajahn Thanissaro would rather have as
> >"sensuality", which I think is a very accurate
> >translation). In no way does it say that one is
> >cut off from the 5 sense media (indriya).
> >
> >Also, translating 'piti' as 'rapture' is fine
> >for Vism Jhana, but not for Sutta jhana. 'Joy' will do.
> >
> >Another point: 'vivekajam pitisukham" makes more
> >sense when translated together as a noun phrase:
> >joy and happiness born of seclusion", while for
> >second jhana there's "joy and happiness born of composure (samadhijam)".
> >
> >Interestingly in Aj Thanissaro's more recent
> >translations, he uses 'composure' for 'samadhi'
> >here too, but has not changed his earlier translations.
> >
> >kb
> >
> >Dieter Moeller wrote thus at 09:16 AM 14-01-13:
> >>D: absorbtion ( I understand is the common
> >>translation) and burning up can be synonymously
> >>used (e.g. nourishment of fire) in respect to
> >>first Jhana: sensual objects =5senses media
> >>,second Jhana: thinking/ mental activity
> >>(subsiding of thought-conception and discursive thinking).
> >>I would prefe German "ausblenden" English blank out, fade out/down,
> blind out
> >>
> >>PTS:JhÄ?na1 (nt.) [from jhÄ?yati,1 BSk.
> >>dhyÄ?na. The (popular etym -- ) expln of jhÄ?na
> >>is given by Bdhgh at Vism 150 as follows:
> >>"Ä?rammaṇ' ûpanijjhÄ?nato paccanÄ«ka --
> >>jhÄ?panato vÄ? jhÄ?naÅ‹," i.e. called jh. from
> >>meditation on objects & from burning up anything adverse] literally
> meditation
> >>
> >>Nyanatiloka Buddhist Dictionary :
> >>„The stereotype text, often met with in the Suttas, runs as follows:
> >>(1) "Detached from sensual objects, o monks,
> >>detached from unwholesome consciousness,
> >>attached with thought-conception (vitakka) and
> >>discursive thinking (vicÄ?ra), born of
> >>detachment (vivekaja) and filled with rapture
> >>(pīti) and joy (sukha) he enters the first absorption.
> >>
> >>(2) "After the subsiding of thought-conception
> >>and discursive thinking, and by gaining inner
> >>tranquility and oneness of mind, he enters into
> >>a state free from thought-conception and
> >>discursive thinking, the second absorption,
> >>which is born of concentration (samÄ?dhi), and
> >>filled with rapture (pīti) and joy (sukha)."
> >>
> >>PTS provides following sources :
> >>The jhÄ?nas are discussed in extenso & in
> >>various combinations as regards theory &
> >>practice at: D i.34 sq.; 73 sq.; S ii. 210 sq.;
> >>iv.217 sq., 263 sq.; v.213 sq.; M i.276 sq.,
> >>350 sq., 454 sq.; A i.53, 163; ii.126; iii.394
> >>sq.; iv.409 sq.; v.157 sq.; Vin iii.4; Nd2 on
> >>Sn 1119 & s.v.; Ps i.97 sq.; ii.169 sq.; Vbh
> >>257 sq.; 263 sq.; 279 sq.; Vism 88, 415. --
> >>They are frequently mentioned either as a set,
> >>or singly, when often the set is implied (as in
> >>the case of the 4th jh.). Mentioned as jh. 1 --
> >>4 e. g. at Vin i.104; ii.161 (foll. by
> >>sotÄ?panna, etc.); D ii.156, 186; iii.78, 131,
> >>222; S ii.278 (nikÄ?malÄ?bhin); A ii.36 (id.);
> >>iii.354; S iv.299; v.307 sq.; M i.21, 41, 159,
> >>203, 247, 398, 521; ii.15, 37; Sn 69, 156, 985;
> >>Dh 372; J i.139; VvA 38; PvA 163. --
> >>Separately: the 1st: A iv.422; v.135; M i.246,
> >>294; Miln 289; 1st -- 3rd: A iii.323; M i.181;
> >>1st & 2nd: M ii.28; 4th: A ii.41; iii.325;
> >>v.31; D iii.270; VvA 4. -- See also Mrs. Rh. D.
> >>Buddh. Psych. (Quest Series) p. 107 sq.; Dhs.
> >>trsl. p. 52 sq.; Index to Saŋyutta N. for more refs.; also
> Kasiṇa.
> >>
> >>I suppose that misunderstandings occur when
> >>theory (  contemplation of samma samadhi  as an
> >>object of contemplation within the framework of
> >>Maha SatiPatthana)  and practise --see standard texts-  is not
> distinguished.
> >>
> >>Further investigation of this issue may be benefitial.
> >>
> >>
> >>With Metta Dieter
> >>
> >>P.S. I wrote to the list owner concerning the
> >>delay of postings,  no answer so far
>

Hi Dieter,

I am not a specialist in these matters, but still I venture to make some
observations:

I think it is not true that "absorption" and "burning up" refer to the same
thing. Absorption is a highly concentrated state in which the senses don't
function anymore, or, at least, don't function in a normal way. Somebody is
said to be in absorption means, as I understand it, that he or she is one
with the object, without any thinking or awareness of the body. Sujiva
describes it as follows: "When one enters fixed concentration, the mind
undergoes a specific  form of mental process,...,which leaves behind any
conscious subject-object experiences. This fixation can be cleary
experienced as a merging of the mind with its object."
I think this is the way "jhana" is normally interpreted. The
Buddhaghosa 'etymology is indeed a popular one: according to Nyanatiloka's
"Pali-Anthologie und Wörterbuch", the word "jhana" is from the Sanskrit root
"dhyaa", or "dhi", which means to perceive, to think. Nyanatiloka writes:
"erscheinen, bemerken, denken". There is also the word "jhana" that has the
meaning "burn, to set on fire", but  that is from the Sanskrit root "ksha".

The meaning of jhana as absorption is the way Sujiva uses - and, if I am
right, that is the normal conception of 'jhana" - is not in keeping with the
sutta's.
Let's take an example: in sutta 111 of the Majjhima Nikaya, the Anuppada
Sutta, Sariputta's path to deliverance is described.

"And the states in the first jhana - the applied thought, the sustained
thought, the rapture, the pleasure, and the unification of mind; the
contact, feeling, perception, volition, and mind" (that is: the 5 khanda's,
GB); the zeal, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention -
these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him
these states arose, known they were present, known they disappeared. He
understood thus: "So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being;
having been, they vanish." Regarding those states, he abided unattracted,
unrepelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of
barriers. He understood: "There is an escape beyond", and with the
cultivation of that attainment, he confirmed that there is." (Bikkhu Bodhi:
the next attainment, the second jhana)
Sariputta goes through all jhana's. At the end of the cycle, after reaching
the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he abides in the
"cessation of perception and feeling'. Then follow the words: " And the
taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom."

So, it seems clear to me that jhana can coincide with awareness of the body
and all other khanda's, that during the jhana's insight (vipassana...) into
the arising and falling away of phenomena, i.e. awareness of impermanence,
is present, and that the jhana-way can lead to complete liberation.
This implies, I think,  that the usual interpretation of 'jhana' as
absorption, as one pointed concentration, is not in accordance with the
sutta's.

Metta,

Gerard







Gerard,

sorry for late reply .. but I received your messages only today ..not sure
why (?)

You wrote:

(G: Interesting in this connection are the ideas about meditation and jhana
of > > the American monk Vimalaramsi (dhammasukha.org).> > According to him
the idea of jhana as absorption, or even, concentration > > meditation,
which is, in vipassana-circles, the common vue, is utterly > > false. It is
based on the commentaries, he says, in particular on the > > Visuddhimagga,
but not on the Sutta’s.)

(D: I wonder whether he put it this way, as it is obvious according to the >
suttas , that within the first Jhana the 5 senses media is absorbed , and >
in the second , the 6xt sense .)

G: could you be a bit more explicit: what is the Pali word for “absorbed” ,
and can you mention a sutta, an > exact place if possible, where is told
what you say

Ven. K: I'm interested to know where you find the Suttas say that.


D: absorbtion ( I understand is the common translation) and burning up can
be synonymously used (e.g. nourishment of fire) in respect to first Jhana:
sensual objects =5senses media ,second Jhana: thinking/ mental activity
(subsiding of thought-conception and discursive thinking).
I would prefe German "ausblenden" English blank out, fade out/down, blind
out

PTS:Jhāna1 (nt.) [from jhāyati,1 BSk. dhyāna. The (popular etym -- ) expln
of jhāna is given by Bdhgh at Vism 150 as follows: "ārammaṇ' ûpanijjhānato
paccanīka -- jhāpanato vā jhānaŋ," i.e. called jh. from meditation on
objects & from burning up anything adverse] literally meditation

Nyanatiloka Buddhist Dictionary :
„The stereotype text, often met with in the Suttas, runs as follows:

(1) "Detached from sensual objects, o monks, detached from unwholesome
consciousness, attached with thought-conception (vitakka) and discursive
thinking (vicāra), born of detachment (vivekaja) and filled with rapture
(pīti) and joy (sukha) he enters the first absorption.

(2) "After the subsiding of thought-conception and discursive thinking, and
by gaining inner tranquility and oneness of mind, he enters into a state
free from thought-conception and discursive thinking, the second absorption,
which is born of concentration (samādhi), and filled with rapture (pīti) and
joy (sukha)."

PTS provides following sources :
The jhānas are discussed in extenso & in various combinations as regards
theory & practice at: D i.34 sq.; 73 sq.; S ii. 210 sq.; iv.217 sq., 263
sq.; v.213 sq.; M i.276 sq., 350 sq., 454 sq.; A i.53, 163; ii.126; iii.394
sq.; iv.409 sq.; v.157 sq.; Vin iii.4; Nd2 on Sn 1119 & s.v.; Ps i.97 sq.;
ii.169 sq.; Vbh 257 sq.; 263 sq.; 279 sq.; Vism 88, 415. -- They are
frequently mentioned either as a set, or singly, when often the set is
implied (as in the case of the 4th jh.). Mentioned as jh. 1 -- 4 e. g. at
Vin i.104; ii.161 (foll. by sotāpanna, etc.); D ii.156, 186; iii.78, 131,
222; S ii.278 (nikāmalābhin); A ii.36 (id.); iii.354; S iv.299; v.307 sq.; M
i.21, 41, 159, 203, 247, 398, 521; ii.15, 37; Sn 69, 156, 985; Dh 372; J
i.139; VvA 38; PvA 163. -- Separately: the 1st: A iv.422; v.135; M i.246,
294; Miln 289; 1st -- 3rd: A iii.323; M i.181; 1st & 2nd: M ii.28; 4th: A
ii.41; iii.325; v.31; D iii.270; VvA 4. -- See also Mrs. Rh. D. Buddh.
Psych. (Quest Series) p. 107 sq.; Dhs. trsl. p. 52 sq.; Index to Saŋyutta N.
for more refs.; also Kasiṇa.

I suppose that misunderstandings occur when theory (  contemplation of samma
samadhi  as an object of contemplation within the framework of Maha
SatiPatthana)  and practise --see standard texts-  is not distinguished.

Further investigation of this issue may be benefitial.


With Metta Dieter

P.S. I wrote to the list owner concerning the delay of postings,  no answer
so far

Hi Gerard (and Ven.Kumara)

thanks for your comment.  Please allow me first a few general remarks  before I
answer in detail.
I just come back from a visit to a friend  living abroad and have now more time
to study  respective sutta sources as well the necessary quiteude
for contemplation /concentration.

You may recall , that the contemplation of jhana is included within samma sati
/maha satipatthana  (i.e. in  dhammānupassanā) .
I suppose there is not much difference in respect to the first jhana of samma
samadhi. However the distinction  becomes clear with the 2nd Jhana (' After the
subsiding of thought-conception and discursive thinking' which is connected with
contemplation )  .
The Pali orginal may give us hints whether the translation 'susididing' of this
standard text doesn't allow  absorbtion as a synonym.

I still think that the All (as defined by the 5 senses media and the 6xt ) is
gradually absorbed in the jhana progress ,in particular when it comes to the
definitions of arupa jhanas.

to be continued

with Metta Dieter

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Gerard
   To: Pali
   Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 10:28 AM
   Subject: Re: [Pali] All of that is considered JhÄ ?na ?



   Hi Dieter,

   I am not a specialist in these matters, but still I venture to make some
   observations:

   I think it is not true that "absorption" and "burning up" refer to the same
   thing. Absorption is a highly concentrated state in which the senses don't
   function anymore, or, at least, don't function in a normal way. Somebody is
   said to be in absorption means, as I understand it, that he or she is one
   with the object, without any thinking or awareness of the body. Sujiva
   describes it as follows: "When one enters fixed concentration, the mind
   undergoes a specific form of mental process,...,which leaves behind any
   conscious subject-object experiences. This fixation can be cleary
   experienced as a merging of the mind with its object."
   I think this is the way "jhana" is normally interpreted. The
   Buddhaghosa 'etymology is indeed a popular one: according to Nyanatiloka's
   "Pali-Anthologie und Wörterbuch", the word "jhana" is from the Sanskrit root
   "dhyaa", or "dhi", which means to perceive, to think. Nyanatiloka writes:
   "erscheinen, bemerken, denken". There is also the word "jhana" that has the
   meaning "burn, to set on fire", but that is from the Sanskrit root "ksha".

   The meaning of jhana as absorption is the way Sujiva uses - and, if I am
   right, that is the normal conception of 'jhana" - is not in keeping with the
   sutta's.
   Let's take an example: in sutta 111 of the Majjhima Nikaya, the Anuppada
   Sutta, Sariputta's path to deliverance is described.

   "And the states in the first jhana - the applied thought, the sustained
   thought, the rapture, the pleasure, and the unification of mind; the
   contact, feeling, perception, volition, and mind" (that is: the 5 khanda's,
   GB); the zeal, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention -
   these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him
   these states arose, known they were present, known they disappeared. He
   understood thus: "So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being;
   having been, they vanish." Regarding those states, he abided unattracted,
   unrepelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of
   barriers. He understood: "There is an escape beyond", and with the
   cultivation of that attainment, he confirmed that there is." (Bikkhu Bodhi:
   the next attainment, the second jhana)
   Sariputta goes through all jhana's. At the end of the cycle, after reaching
   the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he abides in the
   "cessation of perception and feeling'. Then follow the words: " And the
   taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom."

   So, it seems clear to me that jhana can coincide with awareness of the body
   and all other khanda's, that during the jhana's insight (vipassana...) into
   the arising and falling away of phenomena, i.e. awareness of impermanence,
   is present, and that the jhana-way can lead to complete liberation.
   This implies, I think, that the usual interpretation of 'jhana' as
   absorption, as one pointed concentration, is not in accordance with the
   sutta's.

   Metta,

   Gerard

   Gerard,

   sorry for late reply .. but I received your messages only today ..not sure
   why (?)

   You wrote:

   (G: Interesting in this connection are the ideas about meditation and jhana
   of > > the American monk Vimalaramsi (dhammasukha.org).> > According to him
   the idea of jhana as absorption, or even, concentration > > meditation,
   which is, in vipassana-circles, the common vue, is utterly > > false. It is
   based on the commentaries, he says, in particular on the > > Visuddhimagga,
   but not on the Sutta’s.)

   (D: I wonder whether he put it this way, as it is obvious according to the >
   suttas , that within the first Jhana the 5 senses media is absorbed , and >
   in the second , the 6xt sense .)

   G: could you be a bit more explicit: what is the Pali word for “absorbed”
,
   and can you mention a sutta, an > exact place if possible, where is told
   what you say

   Ven. K: I'm interested to know where you find the Suttas say that.

   D: absorbtion ( I understand is the common translation) and burning up can
   be synonymously used (e.g. nourishment of fire) in respect to first Jhana:
   sensual objects =5senses media ,second Jhana: thinking/ mental activity
   (subsiding of thought-conception and discursive thinking).
   I would prefe German "ausblenden" English blank out, fade out/down, blind
   out

   PTS:Jhāna1 (nt.) [from jhāyati,1 BSk. dhyāna. The (popular etym -- ) expln
   of jhāna is given by Bdhgh at Vism 150 as follows: "ārammaṇ'
ûpanijjhānato
   paccanīka -- jhāpanato vā jhānaŋ," i.e. called jh. from meditation on
   objects & from burning up anything adverse] literally meditation

   Nyanatiloka Buddhist Dictionary :
   „The stereotype text, often met with in the Suttas, runs as follows:

   (1) "Detached from sensual objects, o monks, detached from unwholesome
   consciousness, attached with thought-conception (vitakka) and discursive
   thinking (vicāra), born of detachment (vivekaja) and filled with rapture
   (pīti) and joy (sukha) he enters the first absorption.

   (2) "After the subsiding of thought-conception and discursive thinking, and
   by gaining inner tranquility and oneness of mind, he enters into a state
   free from thought-conception and discursive thinking, the second absorption,
   which is born of concentration (samādhi), and filled with rapture (pīti) and
   joy (sukha)."

   PTS provides following sources :
   The jhānas are discussed in extenso & in various combinations as regards
   theory & practice at: D i.34 sq.; 73 sq.; S ii. 210 sq.; iv.217 sq., 263
   sq.; v.213 sq.; M i.276 sq., 350 sq., 454 sq.; A i.53, 163; ii.126; iii.394
   sq.; iv.409 sq.; v.157 sq.; Vin iii.4; Nd2 on Sn 1119 & s.v.; Ps i.97 sq.;
   ii.169 sq.; Vbh 257 sq.; 263 sq.; 279 sq.; Vism 88, 415. -- They are
   frequently mentioned either as a set, or singly, when often the set is
   implied (as in the case of the 4th jh.). Mentioned as jh. 1 -- 4 e. g. at
   Vin i.104; ii.161 (foll. by sotāpanna, etc.); D ii.156, 186; iii.78, 131,
   222; S ii.278 (nikāmalābhin); A ii.36 (id.); iii.354; S iv.299; v.307 sq.; M
   i.21, 41, 159, 203, 247, 398, 521; ii.15, 37; Sn 69, 156, 985; Dh 372; J
   i.139; VvA 38; PvA 163. -- Separately: the 1st: A iv.422; v.135; M i.246,
   294; Miln 289; 1st -- 3rd: A iii.323; M i.181; 1st & 2nd: M ii.28; 4th: A
   ii.41; iii.325; v.31; D iii.270; VvA 4. -- See also Mrs. Rh. D. Buddh.
   Psych. (Quest Series) p. 107 sq.; Dhs. trsl. p. 52 sq.; Index to Saŋyutta N.
   for more refs.; also Kasiṇa.

   I suppose that misunderstandings occur when theory ( contemplation of samma
   samadhi as an object of contemplation within the framework of Maha
   SatiPatthana) and practise --see standard texts- is not distinguished.

   Further investigation of this issue may be benefitial.

   With Metta Dieter

   P.S. I wrote to the list owner concerning the delay of postings, no answer
   so far





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Ven.Kumara and Gerard,

I like to suggest to take  following essay into consideration of our discussion.

Interpretations of the Jhanas http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm

(extract  from introduction)
Although the Jhanas appear very frequently in the discourses of the Buddha
(suttas), now two and a half millenna later there is no generally agreed upon
interpretation of what exactly these states of concentration are. This paper is
a highly subjective attempt by one Jhana practitioner to simply list and
categorize the various interpretations I have heard of here at the beginning of
the 21st century. The information in this list is quite likely to not be totally
accurate. ..The first broad categorization would be into "Sutta Style Jhanas"
and "Visuddhimagga Style Jhanas  .....

D: I wonder whether the suttatexts allow such a variety of interpretations and 
suppose that   fitting Pali -English translations  must be checked within its
context.   For example the question concerning ' absorbtion '  may be easier to
be answered  when we have  both ,Jhana texts and the interpretations of Jhana
practioners, in mind.

with Metta Dieter




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well said, Gerard.

In Anupada Sutta, the description of states are
given in the similar manner, except for the base
of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, where
the state is known only upon emerging it. It
clear implies that the meditative state is known
during the experience while in the other states.

Although some people regard Anupada Sutta to be a
later addition (In the Chinese records MN came
out of the 2nd council.), it presents an
relatively early understanding of jhana, which is
unlike the Visuddhimagga kind.

kb

Gerard wrote thus at 05:28 PM 19-01-13:
>Hi Dieter,
>
>I am not a specialist in these matters, but still I venture to make some
>observations:
>
>I think it is not true that "absorption" and "burning up" refer to the same
>thing. Absorption is a highly concentrated state in which the senses don't
>function anymore, or, at least, don't function in a normal way. Somebody is
>said to be in absorption means, as I understand it, that he or she is one
>with the object, without any thinking or awareness of the body. Sujiva
>describes it as follows: "When one enters fixed concentration, the mind
>undergoes a specific  form of mental process,...,which leaves behind any
>conscious subject-object experiences. This fixation can be cleary
>experienced as a merging of the mind with its object."
>I think this is the way "jhana" is normally interpreted. The
>Buddhaghosa 'etymology is indeed a popular one: according to Nyanatiloka's
>"Pali-Anthologie und Wörterbuch", the word "jhana" is from the Sanskrit root
>"dhyaa", or "dhi", which means to perceive, to think. Nyanatiloka writes:
>"erscheinen, bemerken, denken". There is also the word "jhana" that has the
>meaning "burn, to set on fire", but  that is from the Sanskrit root "ksha".
>
>The meaning of jhana as absorption is the way Sujiva uses - and, if I am
>right, that is the normal conception of 'jhana" - is not in keeping with the
>sutta's.
>Let's take an example: in sutta 111 of the Majjhima Nikaya, the Anuppada
>Sutta, Sariputta's path to deliverance is described.
>
>"And the states in the first jhana - the applied thought, the sustained
>thought, the rapture, the pleasure, and the unification of mind; the
>contact, feeling, perception, volition, and mind" (that is: the 5 khanda's,
>GB); the zeal, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention -
>these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him
>these states arose, known they were present, known they disappeared. He
>understood thus: "So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being;
>having been, they vanish." Regarding those states, he abided unattracted,
>unrepelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of
>barriers. He understood: "There is an escape beyond", and with the
>cultivation of that attainment, he confirmed that there is." (Bikkhu Bodhi:
>the next attainment, the second jhana)
>Sariputta goes through all jhana's. At the end of the cycle, after reaching
>the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he abides in the
>"cessation of perception and feeling'. Then follow the words: " And the
>taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom."
>
>So, it seems clear to me that jhana can coincide with awareness of the body
>and all other khanda's, that during the jhana's insight (vipassana...) into
>the arising and falling away of phenomena, i.e. awareness of impermanence,
>is present, and that the jhana-way can lead to complete liberation.
>This implies, I think,  that the usual interpretation of 'jhana' as
>absorption, as one pointed concentration, is not in accordance with the
>sutta's.
>
>Metta,
>
>Gerard

Dear Brian and Pali group,

This reply follows Brian's question from 4 Jan 2013. Thanks Brian for this
question. I have been reading earlier parts of the Paramatthajjotikā recently,
so I enjoyed the chance to think about the beginning of the Cundasutta
commentary. My understanding of the long compound
attajjhāsayaparajjhāsayaaṭṭhuppattipucchāvasikabhedato is that it means:
'according to the division into (bhedato) (i) one's own disposition
(attajjhāsaya) (ii) the disposition of another (parajjhāsaya) (iii) the
situational meaning (aṭṭha-uppatti) or (iv) answering a question
(pucchāvasika)'.

Hence the commentary is saying that the origin of this sutta (the Cundasutta) is
answering the question, in reference to the four origins, which are analysed
into: suttas taught on the Buddha's own initiative, suttas taught according to
the inclination of the hearers, suttas taught according the present situation,
and suttas taught in order to answer a question.

This division of the Buddha's preaching into kinds of origin is called the
cattaro suttanikkhepā or fourfold summary of the suttas and found at e.g. D
i.50. Also there is cattāro hi suttanikkhepā attajjhāsayo parajjhāsayo
pucchāvasiko aṭṭhuppattiko'ti in the Buddhavaṃsa comm.

I expect you've worked all this out by now, but I've enjoyed working out for
myself too.
Best wishes
Dhivan



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Gerard and Ven.Kumara,

I suppose the term absorption is differently understood,  perhaps you may agree
on following sense:

The Buddha mentioned that the state reminded him when he -as a younster-was
sitting under the shadow of a Roseapple tree watching his father at work.  I can
imagine: a hot day , one is a bit idle  and starts to doze ,it is daydreaming . 
In this daydreaming the (cognition of the ) 5 senses are absorbed in
imagination. And there is this taking up thoughts/ideas  and follow them
whatever associations comes up).
Especially children are great in that , immersed (or absorbed) in the world of
Oz , or Peter Pan , etc.)
But in the first Jhana, so my understanding,  the imagination follows a intended
direction (diskursive thinking) , a selection of associations occur and we note 
the most important factor , the pleasant feeling (of piti , rapture ).

By the focus on this pleasant feeling , the activity of thinking (vitakka-vicara
)is diminishing , it becomes absorbed within the feeling ... and by that the 2nd
Jhana applies....

with Metta Dieter




   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Kumara Bhikkhu
   To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 8:36 AM
   Subject: Re: [Pali] All of that is consid ered Jh�" ?na ?



   Well said, Gerard.

   In Anupada Sutta, the description of states are
   given in the similar manner, except for the base
   of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, where
   the state is known only upon emerging it. It
   clear implies that the meditative state is known
   during the experience while in the other states.

   Although some people regard Anupada Sutta to be a
   later addition (In the Chinese records MN came
   out of the 2nd council.), it presents an
   relatively early understanding of jhana, which is
   unlike the Visuddhimagga kind.

   kb

   Gerard wrote thus at 05:28 PM 19-01-13:
   >Hi Dieter,
   >
   >I am not a specialist in these matters, but still I venture to make some
   >observations:
   >
   >I think it is not true that "absorption" and "burning up" refer to the same
   >thing. Absorption is a highly concentrated state in which the senses don't
   >function anymore, or, at least, don't function in a normal way. Somebody is
   >said to be in absorption means, as I understand it, that he or she is one
   >with the object, without any thinking or awareness of the body. Sujiva
   >describes it as follows: "When one enters fixed concentration, the mind
   >undergoes a specific form of mental process,...,which leaves behind any
   >conscious subject-object experiences. This fixation can be cleary
   >experienced as a merging of the mind with its object."
   >I think this is the way "jhana" is normally interpreted. The
   >Buddhaghosa 'etymology is indeed a popular one: according to Nyanatiloka's
   >"Pali-Anthologie und Wörterbuch", the word "jhana" is from the Sanskrit root
   >"dhyaa", or "dhi", which means to perceive, to think. Nyanatiloka writes:
   >"erscheinen, bemerken, denken". There is also the word "jhana" that has the
   >meaning "burn, to set on fire", but that is from the Sanskrit root "ksha".
   >
   >The meaning of jhana as absorption is the way Sujiva uses - and, if I am
   >right, that is the normal conception of 'jhana" - is not in keeping with the
   >sutta's.
   >Let's take an example: in sutta 111 of the Majjhima Nikaya, the Anuppada
   >Sutta, Sariputta's path to deliverance is described.
   >
   >"And the states in the first jhana - the applied thought, the sustained
   >thought, the rapture, the pleasure, and the unification of mind; the
   >contact, feeling, perception, volition, and mind" (that is: the 5 khanda's,
   >GB); the zeal, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention -
   >these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him
   >these states arose, known they were present, known they disappeared. He
   >understood thus: "So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being;
   >having been, they vanish." Regarding those states, he abided unattracted,
   >unrepelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of
   >barriers. He understood: "There is an escape beyond", and with the
   >cultivation of that attainment, he confirmed that there is." (Bikkhu Bodhi:
   >the next attainment, the second jhana)
   >Sariputta goes through all jhana's. At the end of the cycle, after reaching
   >the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he abides in the
   >"cessation of perception and feeling'. Then follow the words: " And the
   >taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom."
   >
   >So, it seems clear to me that jhana can coincide with awareness of the body
   >and all other khanda's, that during the jhana's insight (vipassana...) into
   >the arising and falling away of phenomena, i.e. awareness of impermanence,
   >is present, and that the jhana-way can lead to complete liberation.
   >This implies, I think, that the usual interpretation of 'jhana' as
   >absorption, as one pointed concentration, is not in accordance with the
   >sutta's.
   >
   >Metta,
   >
   >Gerard




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