Dear Yong Peng,

Sorry for my late reply. Owing to some problems with my computer, I have been
almost off-line for the past few days.

You wrote:
>
> the clause only relates your activities (i.e. submissions/sharing of content)
to Yahoo! licensing. In particular, the end of clause 9 states that:
>
> "publicly accessible areas of the Yahoo! Services would not include portions
of Yahoo! Groups that are limited to members"
>
> Reading this in conjunction with the rest of the clause, when you upload your
writings ONLY in the Files section, you are NOT granting Yahoo! a "worldwide,
royalty-free and non-exclusive license".

Then, the copyright notice that I have put on my last paper is much more
generous than the original Yahoo! licensing. I think it is good.
>
> There are other clauses covering infringement of copyright and intellectual
property (IP).
>
> I have to say I am no legal expert on issues of licensing, copyright & IP. I
suggest you consult your publisher or a legal advisor.
>

Well, I am a follower of the Open Access movement concerning academic
publishing. The rule of thumb recommended by the proponents of that movement is
"don't ask, don't tell." So I think I will change my path of action only when my
publisher expresses objection to my practice of archiving my paper drafts here.
Up to now, there is almost no possibility of such objections, for the Journal of
Buddhist Ethics where I have published my recent papers is an Open Access
journal itself; so I expect no problem from their quarters.

Anyhow, thanks a lot for your suggestion.

with metta,

Ven. Pandita

Dear Members,

just discussed with friends from another list the translation of following text:

"Our teacher teaches the subduing of passion and desire."
["chandaraagavinayakkhaayii kho no, aavuso, satthaa"]

this is  the last proposition:

chanda-raaga = passion and desire
vinaya = abolishing destruction, removal; norm of conduct, ethics, morality,
good behavior (page 623 PTS Dict)
akkhaayati = to be proclaimed (page 2 PTS Dict)
kho = indeed, really, surely (PTS Dict page 239)
no = indeed, then, now (PTS Dict page 378) (also "us" in Burmese Dict)
aavuso = friend (PTS Dict page 113)
sattha = to teach (PTS Dict page 674)


it seems to me  that 'vinayakkhaayii' refers to the proclaimed discipline/order
but then by what is 'subdduing ' expressed?

with Metta Dieter

Dear Dieter,

akkhāyii is the masc. sing. of akhāyin, an adjective meaning "telling,
relating, announcing" per the PED, so the compound means "our teacher is telling
(proclaiming) the disicipline of passion and desire" making it a tatpurusa
(tappurisa) compound in the accusative (vinayam) and gen. (chadaragaana.m). For
an intro to these compounds see Warder, page 77-78. For words ending in -in, see
Geiger section 95 and Warder, page 122.


I hope that is clear,

Metta, Bryan




________________________________
  From: Dieter <moellerdieter@...>
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 5, 2012 12:38:28 PM
Subject: [Pali] vinayakkhaayii


 
Dear Members,

just discussed with friends from another list the translation of following text:

"Our teacher teaches the subduing of passion and desire."
["chandaraagavinayakkhaayii kho no, aavuso, satthaa"]

this is  the last proposition:

chanda-raaga = passion and desire
vinaya = abolishing destruction, removal; norm of conduct, ethics, morality,
good behavior (page 623 PTS Dict)
akkhaayati = to be proclaimed (page 2 PTS Dict)
kho = indeed, really, surely (PTS Dict page 239)
no = indeed, then, now (PTS Dict page 378) (also "us" in Burmese Dict)
aavuso = friend (PTS Dict page 113)
sattha = to teach (PTS Dict page 674)

it seems to me  that 'vinayakkhaayii' refers to the proclaimed discipline/order
but then by what is 'subdduing ' expressed?

with Metta Dieter






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree with Nina that it has to do with upekkha. When there is judgement that
something is agreeable, it already means that there is also judgement of things
that are disagreeable. And vice versa. That's just the theory of course. You'd
have to see for yourself what's true in your experience.

Btw, would be good in the future that you include the reference to the sutta.

kb

behappydfgt wrote thus at 05:27 PM 12-06-12:
>Dear Dhamma friends,
>
>in Tikandaka Sutta, a discourse on the agreeable and the disagreeable (the
contemplations called as ariya iddhi).
>
>I do not understand very well why it is said, incases 3 and 4 the followinf
(Nyanaponika Thero Translation):
>
>(3) "And for what reason should he abide perceiving the repulsive in the
unrepulsive as well as in the repulsive? (He should do so with the thought:)
'May no lust arise in me for lust- inducing objects, and may no hatred arise in
me towards hate-inducing objects!'
>
>(4) "And for what reason should he abide perceiving the unrepulsive in the
repulsive as well as in the unrepulsive? (He should do so with the thought:)
'May no hatred arise in me towardshate-inducing objects, and may no lust arise
in me for lust-inducing objects!'
>
>I would say, in case 3: in both cases "may ... not arise in me for hateinducing
objects".
>
>I would say in case 4, in both cases: "may ... not arise in me for
>lust inducing objetcs".
>
>
>Any suggestion or idea about why it is phrased in that way (I checked the pali
and Nyanaponika's rendering is correct).
>
>With metta and thankfulness,
>
>Be happy :)

Hello

Can I leave beginner level questions here or is the forum not as active now in
that area?

Thank You,

Robert

Dear Bryan and Dieter,
I have been puzzling and was hoping Bryan would answer.
Dieter: <["chandaraagavinayakkhaayii kho no, aavuso, satthaa"]

Our teacher teaches the subduing of passion and desire."


Op 6-jul-2012, om 14:21 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:
>
> akkhāyii is the masc. sing. of akhāyin, an adjective meaning
> "telling, relating, announcing" per the PED, so the compound means
> "our teacher is telling (proclaiming) the disicipline of passion
> and desire" making it a tatpurusa (tappurisa) compound in the
> accusative (vinayam) and gen. (chadaragaana.m). For an intro to
> these compounds see Warder, page 77-78.
>
--------
N: Tappurisaa: the whole compound functions as a noun and any case
relation may occur within it. As Bryan said: accusative and genitive.
-------
> B:For words ending in -in, see Geiger section 95 and Warder, page 122.
>
------
N: suffix -in: possessive adjectives. sa~n~nii: having perception.
Instead of subduing we can also say: destruction or discipline.
----
Nina.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Yong Peng,
over the years you have given us so much information on grammar in
many, many posts. I feel I would like to go over them again. Is there
an easy way to find these messages back?
-----
Nina.

Namo Buddhāya!

Dear Dieter,

This morning I happened to read Theragatha and saw the following verse
which reminded me of your email:


"Paññaṃ imaṃ passa tathāgatānaṃ, aggi yathā pajjalito nisīthe;
Ālokadā cakkhudadā bhavanti, ye āgatānaṃ vinayanti kaṅkhan "ti. (*Thag.
3*)


"See this wisdom of the Tathagatas, which shines in the middle of the night
like a fire;

They are providers of light and sight, who -for those that come to them
(āgatānaṃ) - dispell (*vinayanti*) all doubt (*kaṅkhaṃ*).


It makes it easy to understand what is meant by
vinaya/vineti<http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.3.p\
ali.1082258>in
the compound
*chandarāgavinaya *(which Bryan and Nina analyzed thoroughly!)

metta,
Lennart

==================

> **
>
>
> Dear Members,
>
> just discussed with friends from another list the translation of following
> text:
>
> "Our teacher teaches the subduing of passion and desire."
> ["chandaraagavinayakkhaayii kho no, aavuso, satthaa"]
>
> this is the last proposition:
>
> chanda-raaga = passion and desire
> vinaya = abolishing destruction, removal; norm of conduct, ethics,
> morality, good behavior (page 623 PTS Dict)
> akkhaayati = to be proclaimed (page 2 PTS Dict)
> kho = indeed, really, surely (PTS Dict page 239)
> no = indeed, then, now (PTS Dict page 378) (also "us" in Burmese Dict)
> aavuso = friend (PTS Dict page 113)
> sattha = to teach (PTS Dict page 674)
>
> it seems to me that 'vinayakkhaayii' refers to the proclaimed
> discipline/order but then by what is 'subdduing ' expressed?
>
> with Metta Dieter
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Bryan ,

thanks for your answer. Sorry , not yet  clear to me.

you wrote:

'akkhāyii is the masc. sing. of akhāyin, an adjective meaning "telling,
relating, announcing" per the PED, so the compound means "our teacher is telling
(proclaiming) the disicipline of passion and desire" making it a tatpurusa
(tappurisa) compound in the accusative (vinayam) and gen. (chadaragaana.m). For
an intro to these compounds see Warder, page 77-78. For words ending in -in, see
Geiger section 95 and Warder, page 122.'


You confirm what I supposed:  'vinayakkhaayii  refers to 'proclaiming the
discipline',  hence, as you say : '  the compound means "our teacher is telling
(proclaiming) the disicipline of passion and desire" '     However that makes no
sense .

The text in question 'chandaràgavinayakkhàyã kho no àvuso, satthà'ti '
(Devadaha Sutta, S.N. 22.2)  is translated by Sister Uppalavanna : "The Teacher
tells us to tame interest and greed" and by  Thanissaro Bhikkhu 'Our teacher
teaches the subduing of passion & desire.'

But where is 'subduing' respectively 'to tame' coming from?


with Metta Dieter



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Dieter,

The words" subduing" and "to tame" come from the word vinaya which is a noun
meaning "driving out, abolishing destruction, removal" per the PED (as well as
of course referring to the monk's discipline as an additional meaning). The word
also has the sense of "discipline, control" (see Monier Williams dictionary) and
is a derived form of the verb vi + nī. This verb means "to train, guide,
educate, chastise, instruct, etc." See MW. So that's where Sister Uppalavanna
and Thanissaro Bhikkhu are getting the words "subduing" and "to tame" from
(although "taming" would be more accurate as vinaya is not an infintive form)

I hope this is clear,

Metta,

Bryan




________________________________
  From: Dieter Moeller <moellerdieter@...>
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 6, 2012 11:12:14 AM
Subject: Re: [Pali] vinayakkhaayii


 
Dear Bryan ,

thanks for your answer. Sorry , not yet  clear to me.

you wrote:

'akkhāyii is the masc. sing. of akhāyin, an adjective meaning "telling,
relating, announcing" per the PED, so the compound means "our teacher is telling
(proclaiming) the disicipline of passion and desire" making it a tatpurusa
(tappurisa) compound in the accusative (vinayam) and gen. (chadaragaana.m). For
an intro to these compounds see Warder, page 77-78. For words ending in -in, see
Geiger section 95 and Warder, page 122.'

You confirm what I supposed:  'vinayakkhaayii  refers to 'proclaiming the
discipline',  hence, as you say : '  the compound means "our teacher is telling
(proclaiming) the disicipline of passion and desire" '     However that makes no
sense .

The text in question 'chandaràgavinayakkhàyã kho no àvuso, satthà'ti '
(Devadaha Sutta, S.N. 22.2)  is translated by Sister Uppalavanna : "The Teacher
tells us to tame interest and greed" and by  Thanissaro Bhikkhu 'Our teacher
teaches the subduing of passion & desire.'

But where is 'subduing' respectively 'to tame' coming from?

with Metta Dieter

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Lennart, Nina and Bryan,

thank you for the  feedback which is an encouragement to ask the group for
advise in case of occasional doubts .
I think we may agree  about the meaning of the text : the Teacher proclaimed 
taming greed by (the) discipline . Subdue still a better choice than
to  remove (greed or passion) , as this term  misses the point that the training
of the Noble Path is needed , i.e. not only sila, but samadhi and panna as well.
Being  an amateur   of  Pali language study  ,  I better be careful with an
opinion but I wonder about the  connection with vineti , which - if I get that
correctly from the entrees of PTS- provides only   a chance of 1:86 .

with Metta Dieter






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Robert F,

Op 22-jun-2012, om 21:11 heeft r_arber het volgende geschreven:

> Can I leave beginner level questions here or is the forum not as
> active now in that area?
------
N: Most welcome. I find it such a good opportunity to review what I
learnt, and here are always several people willing to help.
------
Nina.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Dieter
Op 6-jul-2012, om 15:42 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven:
>
> Bryan:'akkhāyii is the masc. sing. of akhāyin, an adjective
> meaning "telling, relating, announcing" per the PED, so the
> compound means "our teacher is telling (proclaiming) the
> disicipline of passion and desire" making it a tatpurusa
> (tappurisa) compound in the accusative (vinayam) and gen.
> (chadaragaana.m). For an intro to these compounds see Warder, page
> 77-78. For words ending in -in, see Geiger section 95 and Warder,
> page 122.'
>
> Dieter: You confirm what I supposed: 'vinayakkhaayii refers to
> 'proclaiming the discipline',  hence, as you say : ' the compound
> means "our teacher is telling (proclaiming) the disicipline of
> passion and desire" ' However that makes no sense .
> ---------
>
N: It would make it easier if you indicate the context of your text:
"Our teacher teaches the subduing of passion and desire."
  > ["chandaraagavinayakkhaayii kho no, aavuso, satthaa"]

Who is the teacher, the Buddha? If so it influences our translation.
Akkhaayii, this is a possessive adjective, it is an attribute or
property of the teacher.  What is he proclaining? The dispelling or
destruction of passionate desire. Only the Buddha, no other teachers,
taught the way leading to the destruction of defilements. This is
unique of him.

Perhaps the text will be more understandable in this way: our
teacher,  friend, is someone who really (indeed) proclaims the
destruction of passionate desire.

-------

Nina.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Nina (Lennart and Bryan),



you wrote:

N: It would make it easier if you indicate the context of your text: "Our
teacher teaches the subduing of passion and desire."
> ["chandaraagavinayakkhaayii kho no, aavuso, satthaa"]

Who is the teacher, the Buddha? If so it influences our translation. Akkhaayii,
this is a possessive adjective, it is an attribute or
property of the teacher. What is he proclaining? The dispelling or destruction
of passionate desire. Only the Buddha, no other teachers,
taught the way leading to the destruction of defilements. This is unique of him.

Perhaps the text will be more understandable in this way: our teacher, friend,
is someone who really (indeed) proclaims the
destruction of passionate desire.


D: you are right , I should have provided the context as well .. one may not
automatically assume Teacher= Buddha , and - not less important-the individuals
involved.



SN 22.2 excerpt (T.B.):  Friends, in foreign lands there are wise nobles &
priests, householders & contemplatives - for the people there are wise &
discriminating - who will question a monk: 'What is your teacher's doctrine?
What does he teach?' Have you listened well to the teachings - grasped them
well, attended to them well, considered them well, penetrated them well by means
of discernment - so that in answering you will speak in line with what the
Blessed One has said, will not misrepresent the Blessed One with what is
unfactual, will answer in line with the Dhamma, and no one whose thinking is in
line with the Dhamma will have grounds for criticizing you?"

"We would come from a long way away to hear the explication of these words in
Ven. Sariputta's presence. It would be good if Ven. Sariputta himself would
enlighten us as to their meaning."

Ven. Sariputta said: "Friends, in foreign lands there are wise nobles & priests,
householders & contemplatives - for the people there are wise & discriminating -
who will question a monk: 'What is your teacher's doctrine? What does he
teach?'"Thus asked, you should answer, 'Our teacher teaches the subduing of
passion & desire.'

   snip ....

Having thus been answered, there may be wise nobles & priests, householders &
contemplatives... who will question you further, 'And seeing what benefit does
your teacher teach the subduing of passion & desire for form... for feeling...
for perception... for fabrications. Seeing what benefit does your teacher teach
the subduing of passion & desire for consciousness?'

"Thus asked, you should answer, 'When one is free from passion, desire, love,
thirst, fever, & craving for form, then with any change & alteration in that
form, there does not arise any sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, or despair.
When one is free from passion... for feeling... for perception... for
fabrications... When one is free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, &
craving for consciousness, then with any change & alteration in that
consciousness, there does not arise any sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, or
despair. Seeing this benefit, our teacher teaches the subduing of passion &
desire for form... for feeling... for perception... for fabrications. Seeing
this benefit our teacher teaches the subduing of passion & desire for
consciousness."

Pali text:
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/3Samyutta-Nikaya/Samyutta3/21-Khandha\
-Samyutta/01-01-Nakulapituvaggo-p.html



Clear,the Buddha is meant ..as you say  "Only the Buddha, no other
teachers,taught the way leading to the destruction of defilements."

and the point is  "When one is free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, &
craving for .. (5 khandhas).. there does not arise any sorrow, lamentation,
pain, grief, or despair.  "

"chandaraagavinayakkhaayii " is written in one word, so I wonder whether it is
an often used expression, addressed to  the monks supposed to spread  the
teaching.(?)

No entry in PTS dictionary , but I would not be surprised to find this
combination in  other  suttas too..

I.M.H.O. an 'elegant' translation is still  missing ...



with Metta Dieter




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Dieter,

Thanks for the context. According to the DPR search (Digital Pali Reader) it
only occurs in the Devdaha sutta that you quote. Bhikkhu Bodhi tranlsates "Our
teacher, friends, teaches the removal of desire and lust" (Connected Discourses,
page 858)


Metta, Bryan




________________________________
  From: Dieter Moeller <moellerdieter@...>
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, July 7, 2012 12:48:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Pali] vinayakkhaayii


 
Dear Nina (Lennart and Bryan),

you wrote:

N: It would make it easier if you indicate the context of your text: "Our
teacher teaches the subduing of passion and desire."
> ["chandaraagavinayakkhaayii kho no, aavuso, satthaa"]

Who is the teacher, the Buddha? If so it influences our translation. Akkhaayii,
this is a possessive adjective, it is an attribute or
property of the teacher. What is he proclaining? The dispelling or destruction
of passionate desire. Only the Buddha, no other teachers,
taught the way leading to the destruction of defilements. This is unique of him.

Perhaps the text will be more understandable in this way: our teacher, friend,
is someone who really (indeed) proclaims the
destruction of passionate desire.

D: you are right , I should have provided the context as well .. one may not
automatically assume Teacher= Buddha , and - not less important-the individuals
involved.

SN 22.2 excerpt (T.B.):  Friends, in foreign lands there are wise nobles &
priests, householders & contemplatives - for the people there are wise &
discriminating - who will question a monk: 'What is your teacher's doctrine?
What does he teach?' Have you listened well to the teachings - grasped them
well, attended to them well, considered them well, penetrated them well by means
of discernment - so that in answering you will speak in line with what the
Blessed One has said, will not misrepresent the Blessed One with what is
unfactual, will answer in line with the Dhamma, and no one whose thinking is in
line with the Dhamma will have grounds for criticizing you?"

"We would come from a long way away to hear the explication of these words in
Ven. Sariputta's presence. It would be good if Ven. Sariputta himself would
enlighten us as to their meaning."

Ven. Sariputta said: "Friends, in foreign lands there are wise nobles & priests,
householders & contemplatives - for the people there are wise & discriminating -
who will question a monk: 'What is your teacher's doctrine? What does he
teach?'"Thus asked, you should answer, 'Our teacher teaches the subduing of
passion & desire.'

snip ....

Having thus been answered, there may be wise nobles & priests, householders &
contemplatives... who will question you further, 'And seeing what benefit does
your teacher teach the subduing of passion & desire for form... for feeling...
for perception... for fabrications. Seeing what benefit does your teacher teach
the subduing of passion & desire for consciousness?'

"Thus asked, you should answer, 'When one is free from passion, desire, love,
thirst, fever, & craving for form, then with any change & alteration in that
form, there does not arise any sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, or despair.
When one is free from passion... for feeling... for perception... for
fabrications... When one is free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, &
craving for consciousness, then with any change & alteration in that
consciousness, there does not arise any sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, or
despair. Seeing this benefit, our teacher teaches the subduing of passion &
desire for form... for feeling... for perception... for fabrications. Seeing
this benefit our teacher teaches the subduing of passion & desire for
consciousness."

Pali text:
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/3Samyutta-Nikaya/Samyutta3/21-Khandha\
-Samyutta/01-01-Nakulapituvaggo-p.html

Clear,the Buddha is meant ..as you say  "Only the Buddha, no other
teachers,taught the way leading to the destruction of defilements."

and the point is  "When one is free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, &
craving for .. (5 khandhas).. there does not arise any sorrow, lamentation,
pain, grief, or despair.  "

"chandaraagavinayakkhaayii " is written in one word, so I wonder whether it is
an often used expression, addressed to  the monks supposed to spread  the
teaching.(?)

No entry in PTS dictionary , but I would not be surprised to find this
combination in  other  suttas too..

I.M.H.O. an 'elegant' translation is still  missing ...

with Metta Dieter

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Bryan and Dieter,
Op 8-jul-2012, om 13:47 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

> Thanks for the context. According to the DPR search (Digital Pali
> Reader) it only occurs in the Devdaha sutta that you quote. Bhikkhu
> Bodhi tranlsates "Our teacher, friends, teaches the removal of
> desire and lust"
-------
N: chandaraagavinayakkhaayii: is it possible that this is a
bahubbiihi compound? It qualifies the teacher. Warder p. 137, they
function as adjectives. It is always equivalent to a relative clause:
who was...
I always have trouble with compounds. Perhaps it is explained more
clearly in other grammars?
Nina.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Nina and Bryan,

you wrote :

(B: Thanks for the context. According to the DPR search (Digital Pali > Reader)
it only occurs in the Devdaha sutta that you quote. Bhikkhu
> Bodhi tranlsates "Our teacher, friends, teaches the removal of > desire and
lust"
-------
N: chandaraagavinayakkhaayii: is it possible that this is a bahubbiihi compound?
It qualifies the teacher. Warder p. 137, they function as adjectives. It is
always equivalent to a relative clause:  who was...
I always have trouble with compounds. Perhaps it is explained more clearly in
other grammars?


D: I wonder whether the search function of DPR is able to find compounds
..perhaps a splitting into chandaraaga and vinayakkhaayii may help (?).
I suppose it is likely that Ven. Sariputta used this expression not only once.
A German translation (P.Dahlke) stated  "..die Ueberwindung der Willensgier " (
lit. the overcoming of the greed of will)

B.T.W. interesting to note that Sariputta started his instruction with the root
conditions  and finished with  suffering.

with Metta Dieter

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Nina,


The only thing that Warder leaves out is that a bahubbīhi compound ends in a
noun (Whitney 1292) which functions as an adjective. Most -in words are
adjectives (Warder 122) and I believe khāyin is, therefore this compound would
be a tappurisa, as there is a case relation between the components of the
compound ("proclaiming + accus. vinayaṃ + gen. chandarāgānaṃ). If they are
in the same case, then it is called a karmadhāraya. Either of these can be a
bahubbīhi if they end with a noun and are used as an adjective to describe
another noun outside the compound.

So if you take the word "bahu-bbhīhi," it is a karmadhāraya meaning "much
rice" as bahu- and -bbīhi are in the same case. One might then say bahubbīhi
dese atthi ("there is much rice in the country) and here it is simply a
karmadhāraya.  But if one then uses the compound to describe another noun in a
possessive way, it becomes what is called a possessive compound (bahubbīhi
which is how it got its name): bahubbīhi puriso dānaṃ dadāti ("the man who
possesses much rice, gives charity"). These compounds are to be understood in a
possessive sense and are to be dissolved as yassa bahubbīhi atthi, so
bahubbīhi... ("the person who has much rice is called a 'much-rice' man").

Descriptions of the Buddha and the bhikkhus are full of bahubbīhis, e.g. in MN
1, 138


Since the bahubbīhi ends in a noun, but is used as an adjective, if it modifies
a noun in a different gender, then it changes gender. So it it were in the
dative modifying kaññā as in the sentence "he gave the wealthy (who had much
rice) girl a book"  it would be  so bahubbīhiyā  kaññāya ganthaṃ
adāsi.

Whitney has a good description of all the compounds starting at section 1262 and
the bahuvrīhi (Skt.) starting on section 1292. He calls a tatpuruṣa
(tappurisa) a "dependent compound" (where there is a case relation between the
parts of the compound) and a karmadhāraya a "descriptive compound" (where they
are in the same case) and either of these, if ending in a noun and modifying
another noun outside the compound can be a bahuvrīhi (bahubbīhi).
Unfortunately compounds can be confusing and everybody has his/her own
terminology which makes it even more confusing. 

I don't have Collins' grammar in front of me, but I believe he has a description
of the compounds therein. Hope this helps,

Metta, Bryan


________________________________
  From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2012 11:38:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Pali] vinayakkhaayii


 
Dear Bryan and Dieter,
Op 8-jul-2012, om 13:47 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

> Thanks for the context. According to the DPR search (Digital Pali
> Reader) it only occurs in the Devdaha sutta that you quote. Bhikkhu
> Bodhi tranlsates "Our teacher, friends, teaches the removal of
> desire and lust"
-------
N: chandaraagavinayakkhaayii: is it possible that this is a
bahubbiihi compound? It qualifies the teacher. Warder p. 137, they
function as adjectives. It is always equivalent to a relative clause:
who was...
I always have trouble with compounds. Perhaps it is explained more
clearly in other grammars?
Nina.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Nina,

The only thing that Warder leaves out is that a bahubbīhi compound ends in a
noun (Whitney 1292) which functions as an adjective. Most -in words are
adjectives (Warder 122) and I believe khāyin is, therefore this compound would
be a tappurisa, as there is a case relation between the components of the
compound ("proclaiming + accus. vinayaṃ + gen. chandarāgānaṃ). If they are
in the same case, then it is called a karmadhāraya. Either of these can be a
bahubbīhi if they end with a noun and are used as an adjective to describe
another noun outside the compound.

So if you take the word "bahu-bbhīhi," it is a karmadhāraya meaning "much
rice" as bahu- and -bbīhi are in the same case. One might then say bahubbīhi
dese atthi ("there is much rice in the country) and here it is simply a
karmadhāraya.  But if one then uses the compound to describe another noun in a
possessive way, it becomes what is called a possessive compound (bahubbīhi -
which is how it got its name): bahubbīhi puriso dānaṃ dadāti ("the man who
possesses much rice, gives charity"). These compounds are to be understood in a
possessive sense and are to be dissolved as yassa bahubbīhi atthi, so
bahubbīhi... ("the person who has much rice is called a 'much-rice' man").


Since the bahubbīhi ends in a noun, but is used as an adjective, if it
modifies a noun in a different gender, then it changes gender. So it it
were in the dative modifying kaññā as in the sentence "he gave the
wealthy (who had much rice) girl a book"  it would be  so bahubbīhiyā 
kaññāya ganthaṃ adāsi.

Descriptions of the Buddha and the bhikkhus are full of bahubbīhis, e.g. in MN
1, 139:
ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ukkhittapaligho itipi, saṃkiṇṇaparikkho
itipi, abbūḷhesiko itipi, niraggaḷo itipi, ariyo pannaddhajo pannabhāro
visaṃyutto itipi.
translated by Ñāṇamoli & Bodhi (233) as "Bhikkhus, this bhikkhu is called
one whose shaft has been lifted, whose trench has been filled in, whose pillar
has been uprooted, one who has no bar, a noble one whose banner is lowered,
whose burden is lowered, who is unfettered."
All of these compounds except for the last participle (visaṃyutto) are
bahubbīhis, i. e. mostly kharmadhāryas modifying bhikkhu outside the compound.
Notice how nouns that are ordinarily a different gender (like parikhā, which is
fem.) , have a masc. ending to modify bhikkhu.




Whitney has a good description of all the compounds starting at section 1262 and
the bahuvrīhi (Skt.) starting on section 1292. He calls a tatpuruṣa
(tappurisa) a "dependent compound" (where there is a case relation between the
parts of the compound) and a karmadhāraya a "descriptive compound" (where they
are in the same case) and either of these, if ending in a noun and modifying
another noun outside the compound can be a bahuvrīhi (bahubbīhi).
Unfortunately compounds can be confusing and everybody has his/her own
terminology which makes it even more confusing. 

I don't have Collins' grammar in front of me, but I believe he has a description
of the compounds therein. Hope this helps,

Metta, Bryan



________________________________
  From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2012 11:38:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Pali] vinayakkhaayii


 
Dear Bryan and Dieter,
Op 8-jul-2012, om 13:47 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

> Thanks for the context. According to the DPR search (Digital Pali
> Reader) it only occurs in the Devdaha sutta that you quote. Bhikkhu
> Bodhi tranlsates "Our teacher, friends, teaches the removal of
> desire and lust"
-------
N: chandaraagavinayakkhaayii: is it possible that this is a
bahubbiihi compound? It qualifies the teacher. Warder p. 137, they
function as adjectives. It is always equivalent to a relative clause:
who was...
I always have trouble with compounds. Perhaps it is explained more
clearly in other grammars?
Nina.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@...>

To: "Pali@yahoogroups.com" <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 9, 2012 10:42:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Pali] vinayakkhaayii


 
Dear Nina,

The only thing that Warder leaves out is that a bahubbīhi compound ends in a
noun (Whitney 1292) which functions as an adjective. Most -in words are
adjectives (Warder 122) and I believe khāyin is, therefore this compound would
be a tappurisa, as there is a case relation between the components of the
compound ("proclaiming + accus. vinayaṃ + gen. chandarāgānaṃ). If they are
in the same case, then it is called a karmadhāraya. Either of these can be a
bahubbīhi if they end with a noun and are used as an adjective to describe
another noun outside the compound.

So if you take the word "bahu-bbhīhi," it is a karmadhāraya meaning "much
rice" as bahu- and -bbīhi are in the same case. One might then say bahubbīhi
dese atthi ("there is much rice in the country) and here it is simply a
karmadhāraya.  But if one then uses the compound to describe another noun in a
possessive way, it becomes what is called a possessive compound (bahubbīhi
which is how it got its name): bahubbīhi puriso dānaṃ dadāti ("the man who
possesses much rice, gives charity"). These compounds are to be understood in a
possessive sense and are to be dissolved as yassa bahubbīhi atthi, so
bahubbīhi... ("the person who has much rice is called a 'much-rice' man"). 

Since the bahubbīhi ends in a noun, but is used as an adjective, if it
modifies a noun in a different gender, then it changes gender. So it it
were in the dative modifying kaññā as in the sentence "he gave the
wealthy (who had much rice) girl a book"  it would be  so bahubbīhiyā 
kaññāya ganthaṃ adāsi. bahubbhiyā would take a fem. ending as it modifes
a fem. noun.




Descriptions of the Buddha and the bhikkhus are full of bahubbīhis, e.g. in MN
1, 138
ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ukkhittapaligho itipi, saṃkiṇṇaparikkho
itipi, abbūḷhesiko itipi, niraggaḷo itipi, ariyo pannaddhajo pannabhāro
visaṃyutto itipi.
Translated by Ñāṇamoli and Bodhi (233)

"Bhikkhus, this bhikkhu is called one whose shaft has been
lifted, whose trench has been filled in, whose pillar has been
uprooted, one who has no bar, a noble one whose banner is lowered,
whose burden is lowered, who is unfettered.
Most of these are karmadhārayas acting as bahubbīhis, as they are modifying 
bhikkhu outside the compound. Notice how a noun which is ordinarily fem.
(parikhā) changes gender when it modifies the masc. noun bhikkhu (-parikho)



Whitney has a good description of all the compounds starting at section 1262 and
the bahuvrīhi (Skt.) starting on section 1292. He calls a tatpuruṣa
(tappurisa) a "dependent compound" (where there is a case relation between the
parts of the compound) and a karmadhāraya a "descriptive compound" (where they
are in the same case) and either of these, if ending in a noun and modifying
another noun outside the compound can be a bahuvrīhi (bahubbīhi).
Unfortunately compounds can be confusing and everybody has his/her own
terminology which makes it even more confusing. 

I don't have Collins' grammar in front of me, but I believe he has a description
of the compounds therein. Hope this helps,

Metta, Bryan

________________________________
From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2012 11:38:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Pali] vinayakkhaayii


 
Dear Bryan and Dieter,
Op 8-jul-2012, om 13:47 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

> Thanks for the context. According to the DPR search (Digital Pali
> Reader) it only occurs in the Devdaha sutta that you quote. Bhikkhu
> Bodhi tranlsates "Our teacher, friends, teaches the removal of
> desire and lust"
-------
N: chandaraagavinayakkhaayii: is it possible that this is a
bahubbiihi compound? It qualifies the teacher. Warder p. 137, they
function as adjectives. It is always equivalent to a relative clause:
who was...
I always have trouble with compounds. Perhaps it is explained more
clearly in other grammars?
Nina.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Bryan,
Thank you for your explanations, I shall keep them and study them.
Nina.

Op 9-jul-2012, om 15:12 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

> The only thing that Warder leaves out is that a bahubbīhi compound
> ends in a noun



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nina van Gorkom wrote thus at 04:43 PM 04-07-12:
>Dear Sister Dipa,
>Op 4-jul-2012, om 2:15 heeft Sister Dipa het volgende geschreven:
>
>> I am guessing that there is an easy way to cross reference from
>> Pali PTS Vinaya to English PTS Vinaya.
>>
>-------
>N: I found out that the PTS English Vol IV, mahaavagga, is in Pali
>Vol I.
>Perhaps this helps?

That's probably the biggest stumbling block for a beginner. Somehow, Oldenberg
decided to start with the Mahavagga and Culavagga.


peace

Kum�ra Bhikkhu

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Nina,

thanks. For each of the different series, I have tried different techniques,
which largely depends on the availability of time for me. For some of the
exercises, I compiled the solutions and uploaded them on tipitaka.net. For
others, I simply provided links to each "main" message.

Thanks to yourself and many other members, there is quite a bit of information
now available online. If you have something specific in mind, please let me
know. Otherwise, the "most recent's" are itemised here:

http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/synthesis/pali3.00.cdv
http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/spectra/duka_nipata


With metta,
Yong Peng.


--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

over the years you have given us so much information on grammar in many, many
posts. I feel I would like to go over them again. Is there an easy way to find
these messages back?

Dear members

I have uploaded the final version of my paper entitled "Did the Buddha Correct
Himself?", in the format published in the latest volume (Vol. 19) of the Journal
of Buddhist Ethics.

Please check it out. All feedback is welcome.

with metta,

Ven. Pandita

Dear Yong Peng
Can I know are you a singaporean can you design a website for a buddhist temple?

From: Ong Yong Peng <palismith@...>
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 16 July 2012, 4:46
Subject: [Pali] Re: reviewing


 
Dear Nina,

thanks. For each of the different series, I have tried different techniques,
which largely depends on the availability of time for me. For some of the
exercises, I compiled the solutions and uploaded them on tipitaka.net. For
others, I simply provided links to each "main" message.

Thanks to yourself and many other members, there is quite a bit of information
now available online. If you have something specific in mind, please let me
know. Otherwise, the "most recent's" are itemised here:

http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/synthesis/pali3.00.cdv
http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/spectra/duka_nipata

With metta,
Yong Peng.

--- In mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

over the years you have given us so much information on grammar in many, many
posts. I feel I would like to go over them again. Is there an easy way to find
these messages back?




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My questions also qualify as beginner-level, and are likewise related to de
Silva's Pali Primer, so I'll just add them to this thread.

I get the impression from this page

http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/palidd/

that the members of this group jointly created the set of answers to the Pali
Primer's exercises that can be found (among other places) here:

http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/pali.php?palidd=a01&code=unicode

Is this correct? And if so, are the answers in the Public Domain?  I  ask
because I would like make use of them in an Android "Pali Quiz" app I'm writing
to help teach myself Pali, which I would like to subsequently distribute free
for other students when I've finished developing it.

Thanks for any clarification you can provide.

- RT Berry

Dear Yong Peng,
Thank you for your kindness in answering me. I know that you are very
busy. I am just back from a trip and I will look at the links you
have given.
Nina.
Op 15-jul-2012, om 22:46 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:
>  For each of the different series, I have tried different
> techniques, which largely depends on the availability of time for me.
>
> http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/synthesis/pali3.00.cdv
> http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/spectra/duka_nipata
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear rt Berry,
What a good idea, and helping others as well. Let us know how you
progress, and maybe you can post it here? If you want to discuss any
subject of the grammar, always useful for everybody, helping us to
keep on being engaged with it.
Best wishes,
Nina.

Op 18-jul-2012, om 1:30 heeft rtberryiii het volgende geschreven:

> Is this correct? And if so, are the answers in the Public Domain? I
> ask because I would like make use of them in an Android "Pali Quiz"
> app I'm writing to help teach myself Pali, which I would like to
> subsequently distribute free for other students when I've finished
> developing it.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Yong Peng,
I wanted to reread the suttas in Pali with translations of Gair
Karunatillake by John Kelly (palistudent), but I found a notice that
this file is empty. We had these suttas on our list around 2002. Can
you help?
-----
Nina.

Dear Nina,

we have to ask if John can reload the file to the group's Files section.

Alternatively, you can visit this webpage:
http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/palidd/#B


metta,
Yong Peng.

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

I wanted to reread the suttas in Pali with translations of Gair Karunatillake by
John Kelly (palistudent), but I found a notice that this file is empty. We had
these suttas on our list around 2002. Can you help?