Or, if we take the "ika" to refer to the day, then it's
         days of vassa entry
thereby making it clearer.

kb

Kumara Bhikkhu wrote thus at 11:09 28/04/2009:
>I don't find any sense of period in vassuupanaayikaa. I would prefer simply
>        vassa entry
>I think it refers to beginning point of vassa rather than the period.
>
>kb
>
>Ong Yong Peng wrote thus at 11:57 AM 26-04-09:
>>Dear Ven. Kumara and Nina,
>>
>>thank you. I gather from your discussion that the rainy season is taken to
last for four months. However, the typical rains residence (vassaavaasa) for
monks is only three months, and a monk gets to choose either the first three or
the last three months.
>>
>>So, the term which requires rework is vassuupanaayikaa:
>>
>>* vassuupanaayikaa (f) period for observance of the rains retreat.
>>  [lit.] period marked by the beginning of rain.
>>  - vassa (m) rain.
>>  - upanaayika (adj) beginning.
>>
>>Hence,
>>
>>"Dvemaa, bhikkhave, vassuupanaayikaa.
>>these two / monks / periods for observance of the rains retreat
>>"O monks, these (are) the two periods for observance of the rains retreat.
>>
>>metta,
>>Yong Peng.
>>
>>
>>--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Kumara Bhikkhu wrote:
>>
>>There are 2 points of entry for vassaavaasa (rains residence), one later by a
month. The earlier spans the first 3 months of the seasonal vassa (of 4 months),
and the later the last 3 months. Thus, they overlap by 2 months.
>>
>>Normally a monk enters the earlier one. However, should there be some valid
reason, he can to enter the later one.
>>
>>E.g., the earlier vassa entry for this year according to the Burmese reckoning
is on 7 July (which is the day immediately after the hot season), and the later
is 6 August.
>>
>>With this, perhaps you'd like to rework the translation.
>>
>>> "Dvemaa, bhikkhave, vassuupanaayikaa.
>>> these two / monks / periods marked by the beginning of rain
>>> "O monks, these (are) the two periods marked by the beginning of rain.
>>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------
>>
>>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>>Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
>>[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
>>[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
>>[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
>>[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
>>Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
only.Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>

I am currently looking into downloadable fonts, a new feature in Firefox 3.5;
this would negate the need for every visitor to a website to have the correct
font installed to see Pali diacritics displayed correctly.

Getting the correct font to display does not seem to be a problem, however the
conversion to the correct unicode characters still does not work. Has anybody
had more success?

Example here:
http://journeyonwards.blogspot.com/2009/04/correct-pali-fonts-display-and-firefo\
x.html

Dear friends,

Vesak day falls on the first full-moon day of May. Some countries and
communities around the world may celebrate this occasion on a different day. For
example, in East Asia, some would celebrate Vesak a week before the full-moon
day. Vesak is a public holiday in some countries, but not in others.

Nevertheless, Vesak is a time we come together to commemorate the birth,
enlightenment and parinibbana of the Buddha. Usually, at this time of the year,
there will be all sorts of activities going on in Buddhist temples and centres.
Many of these are traditional chanting and ceremonies to celebrate this
auspicious event.

I like to take this opportunity to wish everyone a happy and safe Vesak. I will
resume scheduled postings on May 13. However, I will still reply to all ongoing
discussions.


With metta,
Yong Peng.

This is further to my e-m on the above subject.

Everything about the vassuupanaayikaa is given in Vinaya Mahavagga:
vassuupanaayikakkhandhaka, No need to guess the meaning.

Hope this information will help.
 D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear hairydogs3,

Firefox 3.5 is still a beta, and I am only using 3.0. Downloadable fonts allow
websites to install a font on your system if the font is not yet present. You
may like to contact the particular website owner if you are having difficulties
with the site, or you may feedback to the Firefox development team about a
potential problem with their beta release.

Also, the URW Palladio SKT mentioned on the site is not a Unicode font, which
makes it a suitable candidate to test the new downloadable font platform.

Hope that helps.


metta,
Yong Peng.


--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, hairydogs3 wrote:

I am currently looking into downloadable fonts, a new feature in Firefox 3.5;

Getting the correct font to display does not seem to be a problem, however the
conversion to the correct unicode characters still does not work. Has anybody
had more success?

Example here:
http://journeyonwards.blogspot.com/2009/04/correct-pali-fonts-display-and-firefo\
x.html

Dear Ven. Kumara and DC,

thank you. I guess we have finally solved the mystery.

* vassuupanaayikaa (f) day marking the beginning of the rains retreat.
   [lit.] beginning of rain.
   - vassa (m) rain.
   - upanaayika (adj) beginning.

metta,
Yong Peng.


--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Kumara Bhikkhu wrote:

Or, if we take the "ika" to refer to the day, then it's days of vassa entry
thereby making it clearer.

> I don't find any sense of period in vassuupanaayikaa. I would
> prefer simply vassa entry
> I think it refers to beginning point of vassa rather than the period.

>>* vassuupanaayikaa (f) period for observance of the rains retreat.
>>  [lit.] period marked by the beginning of rain.
>>  - vassa (m) rain.
>>  - upanaayika (adj) beginning.

Dear Nina,

the discussion of desiderative verbs completes in the next posting, to be
followed by some exercises. I look forward to your participation and assistance.
As the name 'desiderative' implies, these verbs are used to express a desire or
wish.

I am not sure if reduplication is also used in other ways in Pali. At my current
level, I probably won't pick it up if the reduplication isn't obvious, i.e. if
complex morphing occurs. However, if we do come across such words in the suttas
or other texts, I will highlight them for discussion.

I recall from my literature class in my senior secondary school years in
Singapore. There was this discussion of reduplication, and such words, as I
remember, usually evolve from the spoken language, and are also more common in
the spoken language, e.g. mama, papa.


metta,
Yong Peng.


--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

> 4) manA (to think) before sa is changed to viima.m (through
> miima.m). vii + ma.m + sa + ti = viima.msati, investigates.

N: Interesting. I had never thought of reduplication. It seems to intensify,
just thinking is intensified to investigating.

Dear Mahinda and Nina,

yes, thank you, Mahinda, for your patience. I again have to say that Saddaniiti
is a completely different genre from the suttas, and the uninitiated, like
myself, will take a little while to get used to it.

After the last two bouts of your explanation, it is even much clearer, and such
information will be very useful to our continuation of this study. I have not
peep to see what is coming up next, but so far, we have been introducing
'dhaatu' as the verbal root, and the author has been explaining to his Pali
readers and students why 'dhaatu', although we already know its meaning in
English, is chosen as the word for this concept of a 'grammatical root'. Thank
you.


metta,
Yong Peng.



--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

> He means that the word 'dhaatu' is proper for the verbal root because its own
root is that which we find in the word 'vidahanti'; and he says the same word
'dhaatu' is appropriately used to indicate material elements like iron and
copper which are used to produce more complex objects.

N: Now it is clearer, after you explained vidahanti: which has dha as root. I
see that Sanskrit helps you.

Dear Nina,

thank you for the in-depth explanation. I now understand that vossagga is
relinquishment as to the two aspects of defilements and nibbana.

metta,
Yong Peng.


--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

> Can you kindly explain vossagga too?

vossaggapari.naami.m: resulting in relinguishment.
The Commentary explains: there are two aspects of vossagga:
1: elimination of defilements, temporarily by vipassanaa and by eradication
when, at enlightenment, the lokuttara maggacitta arises.
2: the inclination to nibbaana at the moment of vipassanaa, and the experience
of nibbaana when at enlightenment the maggacitta arises.

The Co. also explains that nibbaana is viveka in the sense that it is detachment
from all conditioned dhammas.
Nibbaana is called viraga, because it is the end of clinging.
Nibbaana is called nirodha, because it is complete cessation.

The ariyans develop the enlightenment factor of sati (and the other
enlightenment factors) depending on viveka, having this as object, and the same
as to viraga and nirodha.
The Co explains that there are five kinds of viveka: by tadanga (overcoming by
opposite), vikkhambhana (temporary suspension of the hindrances), samuccheda
(eradication), pa.tipassaddhi (tranquillization) and nissara.na (escape).

All this reminds us that the Dhamma from the beginning to the end deals with
detachment.

Dear Yong Peng,
Thank you and also the best wishes to you for Vesak.
I am always glad to be reminded of full moon, the Dutch newspapers do
not indicate this, no calender. I can only see the moon when it is
not overcast. Which day is it? Lodewijk and I wanted to do some Vesak
discussions, question and answer on that day. We like to commemorate
the occasion in a special way.
    Nina.
Op 1-mei-2009, om 12:21 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:

> Vesak day falls on the first full-moon day of May.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The translation of verses 1 to 6 was first posted to the group on Feb.
1 (see #13281). This posting continues on with verses 7 & 8. There was
some discussion of verse 8 during the discussion of the earlier
verses. I take these two verses as a compound sentence consisting of 4
coordinate clauses linked together with the particle 'ca'.

aasavakkhayalaabhena, hoti saasanasampadaa.
aasavakkhayalaabho ca, saccaadhigamahetuko..

With the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas there is success
         in the Dispensation;
and the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas is caused by the
         attainment of the truths;  7

saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..

and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
         practice;
and the practice surely is supported by competence in the
         scriptures.  8

Note: 'pariyatti-' could also refer to the scriptures themselves (see
PED).

Best wishes,
Jim

http://stores.lulu.com/gunnargallmo
http://metrobloggen.se/esperanto

--- Den mån 2009-05-04 skrev Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>:

"Dear Yong Peng,
Thank you and also the best wishes to you for Vesak.
I am always glad to be reminded of full moon, the Dutch newspapers do
not indicate this, no calender."

I always use a calender with the moon fases indicated.

As calculated by professional astronomers, however, which may not always be the
dates calculated by Sinhalese or Thai bhikkhus.

I am not clear about the reasons. Different time zones, of course; and modern
astronomers make the day and night cycle begin at midnight, while according to
traditional Buddhist ways it begins at dawn.

But midnight in Europe occurs more or less at the same time as dawn in South and
South East Asia, so these two factors should really neutralize each other.

Or is the reason quite simply that bhikkhus are normally not professional
astronomers?

Gunnar



       __________________________________________________________
Låna pengar utan säkerhet. Jämför vilkor online hos Kelkoo.
http://www.kelkoo.se/c-100390123-lan-utan-sakerhet.html?partnerId=96915014

Dear Jim,

thank you. I shall try again some of the sentences.

It's really interesting to see sandhi occurring this way: dhaatusaddassattho.

Eva.m taava dhaatusaddassattho veditabbo.
Thus, to this extent, the meaning of the word 'dhaatu' should be understood.

Thanks for pointing out about Jina, referring to the Buddha. I also made a
mistake here having a.t.tha for a.t.thi.

Atha vaa jinamate "tato gotamidhaatuunii"ti ettha dhaatusaddo li`ngavipallaase
vattati "pabbataani vanaani caa"ti ettha pabbatasaddo viya,
Or as understood by the Jina, in [ettha] (the phrase) "tato gotamidhaatuunii",
the word 'dhaatu' occurs in a change of gender, like the word 'pabbata' in
[ettha] "pabbataani vanaani caa",

na panettha vattabba.m "a.t.thivaacakattaa napu.msakaniddeso"ti
a.t.thivaacakattepi "dhaatuyo"ti itthili`ngadassanato.
but here (it) should not be said (that) "(a) neuter-description from the
expression of 'a.t.thi'" (is) also in the expression of 'a.t.thi', from seeing
the feminine gender (as in) 'dhaatuyo'.


metta,
Yong Peng.


--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Jim Anderson wrote:

> Eva.m taava dhaatusaddassattho veditabbo.
> Just so, the grammar of verbal roots should be understood thus.

'dhaatusaddassattho' should be read as 'dhaatusaddassa attho'.
Translation: Thus to this extent the word 'dhaatu' should be understood.

> Dhaatusaddo jinamate, itthili`ngattane mato;
> The word dhaatu is understood, when (both) the state of the feminine
> gender

'jinamate' -- in the Jina's understanding. The Jina here refers to the Buddha.

Translation: The word 'dhaatu', in the Jina's understanding, should be
understood in the state of the feminine gender.

> Satthe pulli`ngabhaavasmi.m, kaccaayanamate dvisu.
> (and) the state of the masculine gender is well understood; when the
> grammar of Kaccaayana is understood.

'satthe' is likely referring to 'saddasattha' or the Sanskrit science of words
which also applies to Pali grammar where masculine 'dhaatu' is used in denoting
the verbal root.

Translation: in the science (of words it is understood) in the state of the
masculine gender, in Kaccaayana's understanding (it is understood) in the two
(fem. and masc.).

> Atha vaa jinamate "tato gotamidhaatuunii"ti ettha dhaatusaddo
> li`ngavipallaase vattati "pabbataani vanaani caa"ti ettha
> pabbatasaddo viya, na panettha vattabba.m "a.t.thivaacakattaa
> napu.msakaniddeso"ti a.t.thivaacakattepi "dhaatuyo"ti
> itthili`ngadassanato.
> [loosely translated as] Or when well understood, "tato
> gotamidhaatuunii", here the word dhaatu occurs with a change of
> gender like the word pabbata as in "pabbataani vanaani caa", but
> then "neuter-description [declension] from the state of reciting the
> meaning" as well as "in the state of reciting the meaning" should
> not take place, "dhaatuyo" (is) from seeing the feminine gender.

The 'a.t.thi' in 'a.t.thivaacakattaa' stands for 'bones' not 'meaning'.

Translation: Alternatively in the Jina's understanding: in 'tato
gotamidhaatuuni", the word 'dhaatu' occurs in an alteration of the (feminine)
gender like the (masculine) word 'pabbata' in "pabbataani vanaani ca"; but here
it should not be stated: "a newter description from the fact of expressing
bones" because of seeing the feminine gender in "dhaatuyo" in expressing bones
also.

Dear Jim,
thank you. I like it that we have the three here together: pariyatti,
and from pariyatti follows pa.tipatti and from pa.tipatti pa.tivedha,
the attainment of the truth.
Pariyatti: the note of PED: yes, but actually it is more. We listen
and consider the teaching about the present reality, and pariyatti is
not mere theory, it relates to the present reality, such as seeing
now, visible object now. This is the way to eventually understand
these as non-self.
Nina.
Op 4-mei-2009, om 16:38 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven:

> saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
> pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..
>
> and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
> practice;
> and the practice surely is supported by competence in the
> scriptures. 8
>
> Note: 'pariyatti-' could also refer to the scriptures themselves (see
> PED).



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Nina,

> Pariyatti: the note of PED: yes, but actually it is more. We listen
> and consider the teaching about the present reality, and pariyatti
is
> not mere theory, it relates to the present reality, such as seeing
> now, visible object now. This is the way to eventually understand
> these as non-self.

Pariyatti is a term I often seem to have trouble understanding. It is
related to the verb 'pariyaapu.naati' -- to fully acquire or master
(the scriptures). Verses 9 to 12 describe the process of going from
pariyatti to the supramundane state. At the beginning of verse 9 there
is the term 'pariyattabhiyuttaana.m' which I think means: of/for
experts in the scriptures who understand the characteristic of the
language. Verse 10 then goes on to describe the vi~n~nuus who
understand the meaning of the scriptures, and finally in verses 11 &
12 we meet the sappa~n~nas who follow the path and go on to reach the
supramundane. Pariyatti is where we start, I think, and it relates to
getting to the point where we don't get confused about the letters and
the words and are able to focus more and more on the meaning of the
Buddha's teachings.

Best wishes,
Jim

Dear All,

The calendar of gmail indicate all the phases of the moon. This is not a pub for
gmail, but it is free and very convenient, especially for Buddhists, if you use
their calendar.

Happy Wesak,

May all beings be happy

Jacques Huynen

--- On Mon, 5/4/09, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Subject: Re: [Pali] Vesak greetings
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, May 4, 2009, 4:14 PM

















       Dear Yong Peng,

Thank you and also the best wishes to you for Vesak.

I am always glad to be reminded of full moon, the Dutch newspapers do

not indicate this, no calender. I can only see the moon when it is

not overcast. Which day is it? Lodewijk and I wanted to do some Vesak

discussions, question and answer on that day. We like to commemorate

the occasion in a special way.

    Nina.

Op 1-mei-2009, om 12:21 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:



> Vesak day falls on the first full-moon day of May.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]































[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I notice the use of m. what does this "m." mean in Pali, masculine or plural?
 
Greetings,
 
Jade

--- On Mon, 5/4/09, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...> wrote:


From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>
Subject: [Pali] Saddniiti: introductory verses 7 & 8
To: pali@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, May 4, 2009, 7:38 AM








The translation of verses 1 to 6 was first posted to the group on Feb.
1 (see #13281). This posting continues on with verses 7 & 8. There was
some discussion of verse 8 during the discussion of the earlier
verses. I take these two verses as a compound sentence consisting of 4
coordinate clauses linked together with the particle 'ca'.

aasavakkhayalaabhen a, hoti saasanasampadaa.
aasavakkhayalaabho ca, saccaadhigamahetuko ..

With the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas there is success
in the Dispensation;
and the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas is caused by the
attainment of the truths; 7

saccaadhigamana. m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita. m mata.m.
pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya. naa..

and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
practice;
and the practice surely is supported by competence in the
scriptures. 8

Note: 'pariyatti-' could also refer to the scriptures themselves (see
PED).

Best wishes,
Jim



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Nina, Gunnar, Jacques and friends,

hotu te sukhii Vesak.

I am not exactly an astronomer, but I understand that on a full moon night, a
person can view the entire moon no matter where he is on Earth. However, the
"absolute" full moon will probably be only a momentary event to the sharp eyes,
since the Earth and its moon are in constant motion.

Most of the websites I check mention May 9 for the next full moon. But, the
"absolute" full moon can happen anytime throughout that day, depending on your
location. In Amsterdam, the time would be 6.02am, however, it is summer in
Netherlands now, and the sunrise will be at 5.57am. Hopefully, you can still
catch a glimpse of the full moon.

It also happens that Mother's Day falls on the next day, May 10, Sunday. So, I
take this opportunity to wish all mothers a happy Mother's Day too.


metta,
Yong Peng.



--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

I am always glad to be reminded of full moon, the Dutch newspapers do not
indicate this, no calender. I can only see the moon when it is not overcast.
Which day is it? Lodewijk and I wanted to do some Vesak discussions, question
and answer on that day. We like to commemorate the occasion in a special way.

> Vesak day falls on the first full-moon day of May.

On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 8:08 PM, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:

>
>
> saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
> .
>
> and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
> practice
>

Dear Jim,
  I would take mata.m as a PPP serving the function of a verb.  Grammatically
"saccaadhigama.m  .... mata.m (hoti)." The meaning would be "The attainment
of truths is known (or regarded or  understood) to be based on practice."

Regards.

Mahinda



>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Yong Peng,
Thank you very much. I do not mind about the absolute time,
celebration with Dhamma discussions can be all day!
Nina.
Op 5-mei-2009, om 15:53 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:

> Most of the websites I check mention May 9 for the next full moon.
> But, the "absolute" full moon can happen anytime throughout that
> day, depending on your location. In Amsterdam, the time would be
> 6.02am, however, it is summer in Netherlands now, and the sunrise
> will be at 5.57am. Hopefully, you can still catch a glimpse of the
> full moon.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://stores.lulu.com/gunnargallmo
http://metrobloggen.se/esperanto

--- Den tis 2009-05-05 skrev Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>:

<Dear Yong Peng,
Thank you very much. I do not mind about the absolute time,
celebration with Dhamma discussions can be all day!
Nina.>

Funny to see how things sometimes run full circle.

I think it was first decided to fix the Uposatha days to the moon phases for
purely practical reasons. The moon is not especially sacred in Buddhism, but it
was easy to see, at least when the sky is clear, and there were no printed
calendars at the Buddha's time. (There wasn't any smog either to hide the moon,
and not much light pollution.)

And now we look at printed or on-line calendars to see when the full moon is...

Gunnar



       ___________________________________________________
Sök efter kärleken!
Hitta din tvillingsjäl på Yahoo! Dejting:
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;185753627;24584539;x?http://se.meetic.yahoo.net/in\
dex.php?mtcmk=148783

On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 7:59 AM, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Pariyatti is a term I often seem to have trouble understanding.
>

Why? The commentaries are quite clear on this word.Search the CSCD under
'pariyattiiti' and you will get a number of defining references. Most of
them say "pariyattiiti tii.ni pi.takaani".  A comment in Anguttara
Commentary goes further and says that Pariyatti means the three Pitakas
plus the commentaries. It is an entirely  Buddhist usage. The Sanskrit
equivalent paryaapti is not used in this sense in Hindu literature.
PTSD has a fair explanation of the evolution of the term, from 'mastery' to
"what is matered". (In olden times learning by heart and what has been
learnt by heart.)

Mahinda


>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Jade,

<< I notice the use of m. what does this "m." mean in Pali, masculine
or plural?>>

I assume you're referring to ".m". It is the niggahiita -- the 41st or
last letter of the Pali alphabet. It is equivalent to the m with an
underdot as seen in unicode. For representing the m with an overdot
you can type "m which is also another way to represent the niggahiita.

<< saccaadhigamana. m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita. m mata.m.
pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya. naa..>>

It seems that some spaces somehow got inserted after the period in the
digital transmission.

Best wishes,
Jim

Dear Mahinda,

Thank you for your interpretation of 'mata.m' as a PPP which you also
suggested in message #13355, Feb. 24. The problem I have with it is
the need to insert "to be" (not found in the Pali) in order for the
PPP to function grammatically. I still think that taking 'mata.m' as
an action-noun in the neuter has some justification (it is possible to
have two or more valid interpretatons of the same Pali word like the
'suta.m' in 'eva.m me suta.m'. In Cone's entry for 'adhigama' some of
the other meanings given besides 'attainment' are 'understanding' and
'realisation' -- so I don't think it's incorrect to state that the
attainment of the truths is an understanding. Although Aggava.msa has
'saccaadhigamana.m' in v. 8a, I think the meaning can be taken as
exactly the same as the 'saccaadhigama-' in v. 7d.

Best wishes,
Jim


> > saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
> > .
> >
> > and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
> > practice
> >
>
> Dear Jim,
>  I would take mata.m as a PPP serving the function of a verb.
Grammatically
> "saccaadhigama.m  .... mata.m (hoti)." The meaning would be "The
attainment
> of truths is known (or regarded or  understood) to be based on
practice."
>
> Regards.
>
> Mahinda

Dear Gunnar,

you are quite right. ;-) I'm just not sure about Vedic astrology during Buddha's
time. However, as I mentioned earlier, communities around the world celebrate
Vesak in May, but probably on different days throughout the month.

Adding on Nina's comments, the significance of Vesak is not the superficial
ceremonial appearance, but the realisation of the highest potential within the
reach of each and every person - the ultimate compassion and wisdom. For this
alone, everyday can be Vesak.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/13644

I can see that your emails always break away from the original posts. You could
be using an email/web client incompatible with Yahoo!'s.


metta,
Yong Peng.


--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, gunnargallmo@... wrote:

> I do not mind about the absolute time, celebration with Dhamma discussions can
be all day!

Funny to see how things sometimes run full circle.

I think it was first decided to fix the Uposatha days to the moon phases for
purely practical reasons. The moon is not especially sacred in Buddhism, but it
was easy to see, at least when the sky is clear, and there were no printed
calendars at the Buddha's time. (There wasn't any smog either to hide the moon,
and not much light pollution.)

And now we look at printed or on-line calendars to see when the full moon is...

On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 5:53 AM, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:

>
>
> Dear Mahinda,
>
> Thank you for your interpretation of 'mata.m' as a PPP which you also
> suggested in message #13355, Feb. 24. The problem I have with it is
> the need to insert "to be" (not found in the Pali) in order for the
> PPP to function grammatically.
>

Dear Jim,

But even in the example you quote "eva.m me suta.m", isn't the verb 'to be'
  not implied, although it is not 'physically' there? Another common example
is kata.m kara.niiya.m :"done (is) what has to done".

Certainly, there can be different interpretations. I  only  indicated what
seems to me to be the more likely sense.

Sorry I forgot all about the earlier communication. Apologies - and regards.

Mahinda

>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 8:13 PM, Ong Yong Peng <palismith@...> wrote:

>
>
> Dear Jim,
>
> thank you. I shall try again some of the sentences.
>
> Dear OYP,
>
  I suggest below a somewhat different approach to the passage you have been
translating.




  Eva.m taava dhaatusaddassattho veditabbo:



Dhaatusaddo jinamate,  itthili`ngattane mato;

Satthe  pulli`ngabhaavasmi.m, kaccaayanamate dvisu.



  Atha vaa jinamate "tato gotami dhaatuunii"ti ettha dhaatusaddo

li`ngavipallaase vattati , "pabbataani vanaani caa"ti ettha

  pabbatasaddo viya.  na panettha vattabba.m "a.t.thivaacakattaa

  napu.msakaniddeso"ti ,  a.t.thivaacakattepi "dhaatuyo"ti
itthili`ngadassanato.

Translation:

Thus should be understood the meaning of the word DHAATU.

(There is) the word DHAATU  according to the  view ( i.e., the usage) of the
Buddha. According to my view it is  (a word) of the feminine gender. In the
science (of grammar , i.e., as a grammatical term) (it is) in the masculine
gender. According to Kaccaayana (it is) in both (genders).

Or (to explain further): According to the Buddha’s view (or usage as found )
in (the expression)  “Tato Gotami dhaatuuni” ( Hence, O Gotami, the relics),
the word DHAATU occurs with  gender-change. (i.e., it is not the regular
usage). It is like the word PABBATANI  in  (the Dhammapada line) “Pabbataani
vanaani ca”. (The normal or regular usage is PABBATAA not PABBATAANI). (In
rebuttal) it should not be said that  the neuter indication (here) is due to
the the refererence being to bones, (i.e., bones/relics being ‘things’,  the
neuter gender is legitimate). (Why?) because the (word  is) seen in the
feminine gender, even when referring to bones, as in (the common plural
form) DHAATUYO.

Notes:

The first sentence forms the end of the previous para which dealt with the
derivation of DHAATU.

The second sentence is a terse statement in stanza form. I venture to think
that the text is corrupt here. It is likely to be “itthiling(o)'attano
mate”. The word ‘itthilingo’ would go with ‘dhaatusaddo’ , the initial word
of the stanza.  Aggavamsa seems to hold the view that the given canonical
usage DHATUUNI is an instance of “linga-vipallaaasa” or alteration of
gender, a grammatical irregularity we have to accept due to its exalted
provenance! His own idea is that in common parlance it should be in the
feminine form (Nom. Pl. DHAATUYO).. As a grammatical term  meaning verbal
root it is masculine (Nom. Pl. DHAATAVO).  The grammarian Kaccaayana regards
, according to this passage, that the neuter and feminine forms are both
correct. The statement “It should not be said…” is a common way in
scholastic texts of responding to an opposite viewpoint to one’s own
opinion.

I may be wrong on some or even on many points. But I think this is at least
a plausible interpretation. Let's see what the others think about it.

Regards.

Mahinda



>
>   Recent Activity
>
>    -  3
>    New
Members<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmc2FxcmYxBF9TAzk3\
MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI1OTEzNzMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDczOTQ3BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0\
aW1lAzEyNDE0NDgyNDI->
>
> Visit Your Group
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNWRuOTkxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycEl\
kAzI1OTEzNzMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDczOTQ3BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTI0MTQ0ODI\
0Mg-->
>   Give Back
>
> Yahoo! for
Good<http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTJtMXBzNW84BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzEEZ3JwSW\
QDMjU5MTM3MwRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNzM5NDcEc2VjA25jbW9kBHNsawNicmFuZARzdGltZQMxMjQxND\
Q4MjQy;_ylg=1/SIG=11314uv3k/**http%3A//brand.yahoo.com/forgood>
>
> Get inspired
>
> by a good cause.
>  Y! Toolbar
>
> Get it
Free!<http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTJvdmxramlsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzIEZ3JwS\
WQDMjU5MTM3MwRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNzM5NDcEc2VjA25jbW9kBHNsawN0b29sYmFyBHN0aW1lAzEyN\
DE0NDgyNDI-;_ylg=1/SIG=11c6dvmk9/**http%3A//toolbar.yahoo.com/%3F.cpdl=ygrps>
>
> easy 1-click access
>
> to your groups.
>  Yahoo! Groups
>
> Start a
group<http://groups.yahoo.com/start;_ylc=X3oDMTJvN29xMjU4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzM\
EZ3JwSWQDMjU5MTM3MwRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNzM5NDcEc2VjA25jbW9kBHNsawNncm91cHMyBHN0aW1\
lAzEyNDE0NDgyNDI->
>
> in 3 easy steps.
>
> Connect with others.
> .
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

would you please me to give some advice
1. what is the meaning of dispensation. is it the translation of saasana? in my
understanding the word saasana is buddha's teaching in general that is
Dhammavinaya. does 'Dispensation' mean that sense?
2. in my understanding, the meaning of 'aasavakkhayalaabho ca,
saccaadhigamahetuko' is rather to be 'and the obtainment of the destruction of
the aasavas caused (or: lead to) the attainment of the truths'
3. in my opinion, the word 'mata"m' is passive nominative. so the translation
would be 'and the attainment of the truths, based on practice, is known.'

best regards
Dhammadhiro


aasavakkhayalaabhena, hoti saasanasampadaa.
aasavakkhayalaabho ca, saccaadhigamahetuko..

With the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas there is success
in the Dispensation;
and the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas is caused by the
attainment of the truths; 7

saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..

and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
practice;
and the practice surely is supported by competence in the
scriptures.





--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@...> wrote:
>
> The translation of verses 1 to 6 was first posted to the group on Feb.
> 1 (see #13281). This posting continues on with verses 7 & 8. There was
> some discussion of verse 8 during the discussion of the earlier
> verses. I take these two verses as a compound sentence consisting of 4
> coordinate clauses linked together with the particle 'ca'.
>
> aasavakkhayalaabhena, hoti saasanasampadaa.
> aasavakkhayalaabho ca, saccaadhigamahetuko..
>
> With the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas there is success
>         in the Dispensation;
> and the obtainment of the destruction of the aasavas is caused by the
>         attainment of the truths;  7
>
> saccaadhigamana.m ta~nca, pa.tipattissita.m mata.m.
> pa.tipatti ca saa kaama.m, pariyattiparaaya.naa..
>
> and the attainment of the truths is an understanding based on
>         practice;
> and the practice surely is supported by competence in the
>         scriptures.  8
>
> Note: 'pariyatti-' could also refer to the scriptures themselves (see
> PED).
>
> Best wishes,
> Jim
>

Dear Jim,
Thank you for elaborating on pariyatti. I could add just a few more
thoughts.
Op 5-mei-2009, om 4:29 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven:
> Pariyatti is a term I often seem to have trouble understanding. It is
> related to the verb 'pariyaapu.naati' -- to fully acquire or master
> (the scriptures).
-------
N: I am glad with this word derivation. I did not know.
-------
> J: Pariyatti is where we start, I think, and it relates to
> getting to the point where we don't get confused about the letters and
> the words and are able to focus more and more on the meaning of the
> Buddha's teachings.
--------
N: Perhaps knowing the letter and the meaning (the letter and the
spirit). With yoniso manasikaara.
--------
> J: Verses 9 to 12 describe the process of going from
> pariyatti to the supramundane state. At the beginning of verse 9 there
> is the term 'pariyattabhiyuttaana.m' which I think means: of/for
> experts in the scriptures who understand the characteristic of the
> language.
--------
N: True, we are dependent on language, on words to understand the
teachings. For instance, we read about cakkhu dhaatu, ruupa dhaatu,
cakkhuvi~n~naa.na dhaatu. When I hear the word characteristic,
lakkha.na, I think of direct experience, not having to name
realities. There has to be yoniso manasikaara of the actual seeing
and visible object in order to become vi~n~nuu, someone with
understanding. What is seen, visible object, is only a dhaatu, not a
person. But it takes long to truly realize this. Pariyatti is
difficult for all of us. We keep on perceiving persons the whole day.
But that is thinking, not seeing.
---------
> J: Verse 10 then goes on to describe the vi~n~nuus who
> understand the meaning of the scriptures, and finally in verses 11 &
> 12 we meet the sappa~n~nas who follow the path and go on to reach the
> supramundane.
--------
N:I like your description. Thus, pariyatti is more than just reading
the scriptures, what is met with in the texts has to be related to
our life now. Only thus pariyatti can develop into pa.tipatti, the
practice of vipassanaa/satipa.t.thaana.

Nina.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Yong Peng,
reduplication is difficult. Your examples, and others show: desire to
(do this or that)
Op 3-mei-2009, om 1:22 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:

> > 4) manA (to think) before sa is changed to viima.m (through
> > miima.m). vii + ma.m + sa + ti = viima.msati, investigates.
-------
N: Viima.msa is another word for pa~n~naa. Repeatedly considering,
not just once. So, rightly there is a reference to repetition.
------
Nina.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]