Dear Florent and Rett,

thanks. The page on the web has been updated.

Florent, the accusative and instrumental cases are commonly use to
express adverbial meanings in Pali. In such usages, these words become
indeclinables. Hope that helps.

metta,
Yong Peng.

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, rett wrote:

A little aside about the prounouns:

/eta.m/ is 'this'. /ta.m/ is 'that'.

Dear Jacques,

yes, atta is a common reflexive pronoun in Pali.

metta,
Yong Peng.


--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Jacques Huynen wrote:

If atta has the same uses as atman in Sanskrit then it means both soul
and self (oneself, myself, yourself etc...). Then the right
translation in this context might be : "he is himself already ruined"

9.The rice that was cooked by her is given to beggars and crows.
odano / pakko / taaya / hoti / dinno / yaacakaana.m / ca / kaalaana.m
Taaya pakko odano yaacakaana.m kaalaana.m ca dinno hoti.

10.The house made by them was broken by an elephant.
geho / kato / tebhi / bhinno / hatthinaa
Geho tebhi kato hatthinaa bhinno.

11. The enraged king killed all men who came to the city.
kuddho / bhuupati / maaresi / sabbe / nare / aagate / nagara.m
Kuddho so bhuupati nagara.m aagate sabbe nare maaresi.

12.The branch broken by the elephant fell on the ground, and
afterwards your cows ate its leaves.
saakha.m / bhinna.m / hatthinaa / pati / bhuumiya.m / pacchaa /
tumha.m / dhenuyo / khaadi.msu / tassa / pa.n.naani
Hatthinaa bhinna.m saakha.m bhuumiya.m patitvaa paccha tumha.m dhenuyo
tassa pa.n.naani khaadi.msu.

13.The garland received from the queen by that girl is given to
another girl.
maala.m / laddha.m / raajinito / taaya / kaññaaya / dinna.m / aññassaa
/ kaññaaya
Taaya kaññaaya raajinito laddha.m maala.m, aññassaa kaññaaya dinna.m

14.The rice given to them was eaten by the slaves and the beggars.
odana.m / dinna.m / tesaana.m / bhutta.m / daasehi / ca / yaacakehi
Tesaana.m dinna.m odana.m daasehi ca yaacakehi ca bhutta.m.

15.The horse bought by the millionaire is carried by a charioteer.
assa.m / kiita.m / se.t.thinaa / ha.ta.m / saarathinaa
Se.t.thinaa kiita.m assa.m saarathinaa ha.ta.m.

Dear Jim and Nina,

thanks. I would upload these and subsequent postings/discussions on
the following page:
http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/scope/dhamma

Nina, in the first quote, you have

...
We read in the Atthasaalinii, 38:
"Na hi dhammo adhammo ca, ubho samavipaakino;
   dhamma, adhamma bear no equal fruit:
adhammo niraya.m neti, dhammo paapeti suggatin"ti.
   adhamma leads to hell, dhamma causes one to reach heaven.
(theragaa. 304; jaa. 1.15.386)
...

Does it mean Atthasaalinii is quoting Theragatha and Jataka?

metta,
Yong Peng.


--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Jim Anderson wrote:

Have you seen the 14 meanings of "dhamma" listed in verse 784 of the
Abhidhaanappadiipikaa (a 12th cent. Pali thesaurus)?

Dear Yong Peng and Jim,
Thank you very much, Jim, and I shall put these texts at the end. Meanwhile,
I shall try to translate them.
But there are also 23 meanings:

gu.na.m, desanaa, pariyatti/paavacana.m,
nissatta.m/nissattataa/nijjiivataa, sacca.m, sabhaavo, samaadhi,
pa~n~naa, pakati, pu~n~na.m, aapatti, ~neyya.m, pa~n~natti, vikaaro,
hetu/paccayo, paccayuppanna.m, yutti, visayo, nibbaana.m, maggo,
jaati, mana.m, bhaavo.
As to the stem of dhammo: PED gives some info: dh.r: to hold. I heard the
explanation: it bears its own characteristic. But I have not much info.

op 27-05-2006 13:14 schreef Ong Yong Peng op pali.smith@...:>
> ...
> We read in the Atthasaalinii, 38:
> "Na hi dhammo adhammo ca, ubho samavipaakino;
> dhamma, adhamma bear no equal fruit:
> adhammo niraya.m neti, dhammo paapeti suggatin"ti.
> adhamma leads to hell, dhamma causes one to reach heaven.
> (theragaa. 304; jaa. 1.15.386)
> ...
>
> Does it mean Atthasaalinii is quoting Theragatha and Jataka?
Yes, he quotes these texts.
Nina.

The Meaning of Dhamma 2.

The second meaning given of dhamma is pariyatti: the wording of the
teachings as contained in the Tipiìaka.
We read in the "Dhammapada Atthakataa 1.22:
ŒDhamma.m vo, bhikkhave, desessaami aadikalyaa.nan"ti (ma. ni. 3.420)
aya.m desanaadhammo naama.
I shall teach you, monks, Dhamma that is beautiful in the beginning (middle
and end), this is the dhamma of teaching.¹
  We read in the ŒMajjhima Nikaaya¹ about the classification of the Tipi.taka
as nine divisions:
"Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacce kulaputtaa dhamma.m pariyaapu.nanti sutta.m
geyyan"ti aya.m pariyattidhammo naama. (ma. ni. 1.239)
"Here, monks, some  young men of good family learn thoroughly the dhamma:
sutta, geyya, etc. This is the dhamma which is the wording of the
teachings.²

The word of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Vinaya as taught by him, consists
of nine divisions which are: Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na, Gaathaa, Udaana,
Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhuta and Vedalla.
The ³Expositor², Atthasåliní, Introductory Discourse, 26, gives a further
explanation of the ninefold classification as stated in the 'Majjhima
Nikaaya.'. The teachings as compiled (not yet written) literature are thus
enumerated in the scriptures as nine divisions, for example in the ³Middle
Length Sayings² I, no. 22.

Sutta includes all Discourses, such as the ³Mangala sutta² (²Good Omen
Discourse ³, Minor Readings, V), and also the Vinaya Piìaka and the Niddesa.
In this classification the Vinaya is in the section of Sutta. The
³Atthasåliní² mentions in this section on Sutta the Sutta-Vibha.nga and
Parivaara, which belong to the Vinaya.

Geyya includes all suttas with verses (gåthå), such as the Sagåthå-vagga of
the Sa.myutta Nikåya or ³Kindred Sayings².

Veyyåkaraùa or ³Exposition² includes the Abhidhamma Pi.taka, the suttas
without verses, and the words of the Buddha which are not included in the
other eight divisions.

Gåthå or ³Verses², include the Dhammapada, Theragaathaa, Theriigaathaa
(Psalms of the Brothers and Sisters) and those parts of the Sutta-Nipaata
not called Sutta and entirely in verse.

Udaana or ³Verses of Uplift² include eightytwo suttas connected with verses
recited by the Buddha, inspired by knowledge and joy.

Itivuttaka or ³As it was said² includes hundred and ten suttas beginning
with ³Thus it was said by the Blessed One².

Jaataka or Birth Stories include fivehundred and fifty stories of the past
lives of the Buddha and his disciples, beginning with the ³Apa.n.naka
Jaataka².

Abbhuta, ³Marvellous², includes suttas connected with wonderful and
marvellous things (dhammas with extraordinary qualities, which are amazing).

Vedalla includes suttas with questions and answers which have as result
understanding and delight, such as the ³Cullavedallasutta².

There are different ways of classifying the Tipi.taka. In the
³Baahiranidaana² (Introductory chapter of the Commentary to the Vinaya,  by
Buddhaghosa), it is explained that the teachings as a whole have been laid
down as, ³This is the Dhamma and this is the Vinaya, these are the first,
intermediate and final sayings of the Buddha, these are the Vinaya, Sutta
and Abhidhamma Pi.takas, these are the Nikaayas from Diigha to Khuddaka,
these are the nine a.ngas commencing with Sutta and these are the
eighty-four thousand Units of the Dhamma,² was rehearsed together by the
assembly of self-controlled monks with Mahaakassapa as their leader verily
observing this distinction.²
Thus, whenever the Dhamma and the Vinaya are referred to, the Abhidhamma is
included in ³Dhamma².

******
Nina.

Thank you. In PED p. 22 it has the same explanation for attaa.

Regards,

Thomas Law

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Yong Peng" <pali.smith@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Jacques,
>
> yes, atta is a common reflexive pronoun in Pali.
>
> metta,
> Yong Peng.
>
>
> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Jacques Huynen wrote:
>
> If atta has the same uses as atman in Sanskrit then it means both soul
> and self (oneself, myself, yourself etc...). Then the right
> translation in this context might be : "he is himself already ruined"
>

Dear Nina and friends,

the first instalment of Aparaaccharaasa`nghaata Vagga:

1. "Accharaasa`nghaatamattampi ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhu pa.thama.m
jhaana.m bhaaveti, aya.m vuccati, bhikkhave -- 'bhikkhu arittajjhaano
viharati, satthusaasanakaro ovaadapatikaro, amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m
bhu~njati'. Ko pana vaado ye na.m bahuliikarontii"ti!

2-8. "Accharaasa`nghaatamattampi ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dutiya.m
jhaana.m bhaaveti ...pe... tatiya.m jhaana.m bhaaveti ...pe...
catuttha.m jhaana.m bhaaveti ...pe... metta.m cetovimutti.m bhaaveti
...pe... karu.na.m cetovimutti.m bhaaveti ...pe... mudita.m
cetovimutti.m bhaaveti ...pe... upekkha.m cetovimutti.m bhaaveti ...pe....

9-12. Kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati aataapii sampajaano satimaa
vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m; vedanaasu vedanaanupassii viharati
...pe... citte cittaanupassii viharati ...pe... dhammesu
dhammaanupassii viharati aataapii sampajaano satimaa vineyya loke
abhijjhaadomanassa.m.

13-16. Anuppannaana.m paapakaana.m akusalaana.m dhammaana.m
anuppaadaaya chanda.m janeti vaayamati viiriya.m aarabhati citta.m
pagga.nhaati padahati; uppannaana.m paapakaana.m akusalaana.m
dhammaana.m pahaanaaya chanda.m janeti vaayamati viiriya.m aarabhati
citta.m pagga.nhaati padahati. Anuppannaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m
uppaadaaya chanda.m janeti vaayamati viiriya.m aarabhati citta.m
pagga.nhaati padahati; uppannaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m .thitiyaa
asammosaaya bhiyyobhaavaaya vepullaaya bhaavanaaya paaripuuriyaa
chanda.m janeti vaayamati viiriya.m aarabhati citta.m pagga.nhaati
padahati.

17-20. Chandasamaadhipadhaanasa`nkhaarasamannaagata.m iddhipaada.m
bhaaveti... viiriyasamaadhipadhaanasa`nkhaarasamannaagata.m
iddhipaada.m bhaaveti... cittasamaadhipadhaanasa`nkhaarasamannaagata.m
iddhipaada.m bhaaveti...
viima.msaasamaadhipadhaanasa`nkhaarasamannaagata.m iddhipaada.m
bhaaveti....

------------------------------------------------------------------

1. "Accharaasa`nghaatamattampi ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhu pa.thama.m
jhaana.m bhaaveti, aya.m vuccati, bhikkhave --
even for only one moment / if / monks / monk / first / jhana /
develops / this / is said / monks
"Even for only one moment, O monks, if a monk developed the first
jhana, monks, this is said --

accharaasa`nghaatamattampi [sandhi] accharaasa`nghaatamatta.m pi: even
for only one moment.
- accharaasa`nghaatamatta = accharaa-sa`nghaata-matta: momentary, only
for one moment.
-- accharaasa`nghaata: lit. snapping of the fingers.
- pi (indec) even, just so.
ce (particle) if.
bhikkhu (m) monk.
pa.thama (adj) first.
jhaana (n) jhana.
bhaaveti (v) develops.
aya.m (dem pron) this.
vuccati (passive of vatti) is called, said, spoken.

'bhikkhu arittajjhaano viharati, satthusaasanakaro ovaadapatikaro,
amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m bhu~njati'.
monk / not free of jhana / dwells / complying with the teachings of
one's teacher / deliberating the instructions / not in vain / food
from the people / eats
'Complying with the Buddha's teachings and thinking about the
exhortations, the monk dwells absorbed in jhana (and) eats food,
(considered) well-spent, from the people.'

arittajjhaana = arittassa jhaana (adj) not free of jhana.
- aritta = na ritta.
-- ritta (pp of ri~ncati) devoid, empty, free, rid of.
viharati (v) lives, dwells.
satthusaasanakara = satthussa saasanakara (adj) complying with the
teachings of one's teacher.
- satthu (m) teacher.
- saasanakara (adj) complying with one's order or teaching.
ovaadapatikara = ovaadapa.tikara (adj) deliberating the instructions.
- ovaada (m) advice, instruction, admonition, exhortation.
- pa.tikara (adj) counteracting, redressing, expiating.
amogha = na mogha (adj) not in vain, not futile.
- mogha (adj) empty, vain, useless, stupid, foolish.
ra.t.thapi.n.da = ra.t.thassa pi.n.da (m) food from the people.
- ra.t.tha (n) country.
- pi.n.da (m) alms given as food.
bhu~njati (v) eats, partakes.

Ko pana vaado ye na.m bahuliikarontii"ti!
what / further / speaking / whoever / that / practise
Whoever practise that, what else need to be said!"

ko (interr pron) what? who?
pana (indec) but, however, further.
vaada (m) speaking, talk.
ye (rel pron) who.
na.m (dem pron) that.
bahuliikaroti (v) takes up seriously, practises, devotes oneself to.

------------------------------------------------------------------

2-8. "Accharaasa`nghaatamattampi ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dutiya.m
jhaana.m bhaaveti ...pe... tatiya.m jhaana.m bhaaveti ...pe...
catuttha.m jhaana.m bhaaveti ...pe... metta.m cetovimutti.m bhaaveti
...pe... karu.na.m cetovimutti.m bhaaveti ...pe... mudita.m
cetovimutti.m bhaaveti ...pe... upekkha.m cetovimutti.m bhaaveti ...pe....
even for only one moment / if / monks / monk / second / jhana /
develops / and so on / third / jhana / develops / and so on / fourth /
jhana / develops / and so on / loving-kindness / liberation of the
mind / develops / and so on / compassion / liberation of the mind /
develops / and so on / altruistic joy / liberation of the mind /
develops / and so on / equanimity / liberation of the mind / develops
/ and so on
"Even for only one moment, O monks, if a monk developed the second
jhana, the third jhana, the fourth jhana, or developed loving-kindness
to the liberation of the mind, or compassion, altruistic joy or
equanimity to the liberation of the mind, ..."

dutiya (adj) second.
tatiya (adj) third.
catuttha (adj) fourth.
metta (n) loving-kindness.
cetovimutti = cittassa vimutti (f) liberation of the mind.
- citta (n) mind.
- vimutti (f) release, liberation.
karu.naa (f) compassion.
muditaa (f) altruistic joy.
upekkhaa (f) equanimity.

------------------------------------------------------------------

9-12. Kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati aataapii sampajaano satimaa
vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m;
in body / contemplating the body / dwells / ardent / mindful /
contemplative / should remove / in world / covetousness and displeasure
Ardent, mindful and contemplative, (he) dwells contemplating the body
in the body, (and) should remove covetousness and displeasure in the
world;

kaaya (m) body.
kaayaanupassin = kaaya.m anupassin (adj) contemplating the body.
- anupassin (adj) contemplating.
aataapin (adj) ardent, zealous, strenuous, active.
sampajaana (adj) thoughtful, mindful, attentive, deliberate.
satimant (adj) mindful, thoughtful, contemplative, pensive.
vineti (v) removes, puts away, gives up.
loka (m) world.
abhijjhaadomanassa = abhijjhaa ca domanassa ca (n) covetousness and
displeasure.
- abhijjhaa (f) covetousness.
- domanassa (n) displeasure.

vedanaasu vedanaanupassii viharati ...pe... citte cittaanupassii
viharati ...pe... dhammesu dhammaanupassii viharati aataapii
sampajaano satimaa vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m.
in feelings / contemplating feelings / dwells / and so on / in mind /
contemplating the mind / dwells / and so on / phenomena /
contemplating phenomena / dwells / ardent / mindful / contemplative /
should remove / in world / covetousness and displeasure
ardent, mindful and contemplative, (he) dwells contemplating feelings
in feelings, contemplating the mind in the mind, contemplating
phenomena in phenomena, (and) should remove covetousness and
displeasure in the world.

vedanaa (f) feeling.
vedanaanupassin = vedana.m anupassin (adj) contemplating feelings.
cittaanupassin = citta.m anupassin (adj) contemplating the mind.
dhamma (m) phenomenon.
dhammaanupassin = dhamma.m anupassin (adj) contemplating phenomena.

------------------------------------------------------------------

13-16. Anuppannaana.m paapakaana.m akusalaana.m dhammaana.m
anuppaadaaya chanda.m janeti vaayamati viiriya.m aarabhati citta.m
pagga.nhaati padahati;
not arisen / wicked / not good / of thoughts / for non-rising /
resolution / makes / endeavours / effort / exerts / mind / applies /
exerts
(One) endeavours (and) makes the resolution (and) effort to apply
(and) exert the mind for the non-rising of wicked (and) unwholesome
thoughts not arisen;

anuppanna = na uppanna (adj) not arisen.
- na (adv) not.
- uppanna (pp of uppajjati) born, reborn, arisen, produced.
paapaka (adj) bad, wicked.
akusala = na kusala (adj) not good.
- kusala (adj) good.
anuppaada = na uppaada (m) not rising.
- uppaada (m) rising.
chanda (m) will, resolution.
janeti (caus of janati) produces, causes.
vaayamati (v) endeavours.
viiriya = viriya (n) energy, effort.
aarabhati (v) exerts.
pagga.nhaati (v) applies.
padahati (v) strives, exerts.

uppannaana.m paapakaana.m akusalaana.m dhammaana.m pahaanaaya chanda.m
janeti vaayamati viiriya.m aarabhati citta.m pagga.nhaati padahati.
arisen / wicked / not good / of thoughts / for abandoning / resolution
/ makes / endeavours / effort / exerts / mind / applies / exerts
(one) endeavours (and) makes the resolution (and) effort to apply
(and) exert the mind for the abandoning of wicked (and) unwholesome
thoughts arisen.

pahaana (n) abandoning.

Anuppannaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m uppaadaaya chanda.m janeti
vaayamati viiriya.m aarabhati citta.m pagga.nhaati padahati;
not arisen / good / of thoughts / for rising / resolution / makes /
endeavours / effort / exerts / mind / applies / exerts
(One) endeavours (and) makes the resolution (and) effort to apply
(and) exert the mind for the rising of wholesome thoughts not arisen;

uppannaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m .thitiyaa asammosaaya
bhiyyobhaavaaya vepullaaya bhaavanaaya paaripuuriyaa chanda.m janeti
vaayamati viiriya.m aarabhati citta.m pagga.nhaati padahati.
arisen / good / of thoughts / for continuity / for non-confusion / for
further development / for full development / for cultivation / for
completion / resolution / makes / endeavours / effort / exerts / mind
/ applies / exerts
(one) endeavours (and) makes the resolution (and) effort to apply
(and) exert the mind for the continuity, non-confusion, further
development, full development, cultivation and completion of wholesome
thoughts arisen.

.thiti (f) stability, continuity.
asammosa = na sammosa (m) non-confusion.
- sammosa (m) confusion.
bhiyyobhaava (m) further development.
- bhiyyo (adj) further.
- bhaava (m) becoming.
vepulla (n) full development, abundance, plenty, fullness.
bhaavanaa (f) cultivation.
paaripuurii (f) fulfilment, completion.

------------------------------------------------------------------

17-20. Chandasamaadhipadhaanasa`nkhaarasamannaagata.m iddhipaada.m
bhaaveti... viiriyasamaadhipadhaanasa`nkhaarasamannaagata.m
iddhipaada.m bhaaveti... cittasamaadhipadhaanasa`nkhaarasamannaagata.m
iddhipaada.m bhaaveti...
viima.msaasamaadhipadhaanasa`nkhaarasamannaagata.m iddhipaada.m
bhaaveti....
comprised of volitional effort on the concentration of resolution /
basis of power / develops / comprised of volitional effort on the
concentration of energy / basis of power / develops / comprised of
volitional effort on the concentration of the mind / basis of power /
develops / comprised of volitional effort on the concentration of
investigation / basis of power / develops
Develops the basis of power comprising volitional effort on the
concentration of resolution, energy, the mind and investigation...

chandasamaadhipadhaanasa`nkhaarasamannaagata (adj) comprised of
volitional effort on the concentration of resolution.
- samaadhi (m) concentration.
- padhaana (n) exertion, effort.
- sa`nkhaara (m) volition.
- samannaagata (adj) followed by, possessed of.
iddhipaada = iddhiyaa paada (m) basis of power.
- iddhi (f) power.
- paada (m) foot, base, basis.
viiriyasamaadhipadhaanasa`nkhaarasamannaagata (adj) comprised of
volitional effort on the concentration of energy.
cittasamaadhipadhaanasa`nkhaarasamannaagata (adj) comprised of
volitional effort on the concentration of the mind.
viima.msaasamaadhipadhaanasa`nkhaarasamannaagata (adj) comprised of
volitional effort on the concentration of investigation.
- viima.msaa (f) consideration, investigation.


Please correct me if there is any mistake.

metta,
Yong Peng.

Hi all,

I'm looking for the Pali word for omniscient, and maybe a reference...?

Thanks,
With Metta,
Keren

Dear Keren,

The Pali word often translated as "omniscient" is 'sabba~n~nuu', usually
predicated of the Buddha.  However, I suspect that the Pali word does not
have quite the same scope as the English word.  I think one can say that a
Buddha knows everything that is important to know but not literally
everything.

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge




----- Original Message -----
From: "keren_arbel" <keren_arbel@...>
To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 11:04 AM
Subject: [Pali] The Buddha as omniscient


> Hi all,
>
> I'm looking for the Pali word for omniscient, and maybe a reference...?
>
> Thanks,
> With Metta,
> Keren
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Dear Yong Peng,
I like the expression; even for the lasting of a fingersnap,
Accharaasa`nghaatamattam. Would you not like to keep it? We had this before,
and I explained that I saw it as a stronger expression.

op 28-05-2006 13:26 schreef Ong Yong Peng op pali.smith@...:
  ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 1. "Accharaasa`nghaatamattampi ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhu pa.thama.m
> jhaana.m bhaaveti, aya.m vuccati, bhikkhave --
> even for only one moment / if / monks / monk / first / jhana /
> develops / this / is said / monks
> "Even for only one moment, O monks, if a monk developed the first
> jhana, monks, this is said --
--------
N: After bhikkhave there should be: bhikkhu ( put at the next sentence, but
should be placed forward). This belongs together:  aya.m vuccati,, bhikkhave
-- 'bhikkhu'. The last word, bhikkhu belongs to aya.m vuccati. He (aya.m) is
called a bhikkhu.
This is essential: he is a true bhikkhu if he develops the first jhaana,
etc. An exhortation.
---------
Y.P.: 'bhikkhu arittajjhaano viharati, satthusaasanakaro ovaadapatikaro,
amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m bhu~njati'.

'Complying with the Buddha's teachings and thinking about the
exhortations, the monk dwells absorbed in jhana (and) eats food,
(considered) well-spent, from the people.
-------
N: first word bhikkhu belongs to the former sentence, see above.
''bhikkhu

arittajjhaano viharati,
arittajjhaano: this could mean: his jhaana is not in vain. (PTS has: not
empty of result).
satthusaasanakaro: he dwells complying with the Master's exhortation,
ovaadapatikaro: taking his advice,
> amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m bhu~njati': he eats the people's alsmfood not in
vain.
The meaning is: as a true bhikkhu he deserves the almsfood. If he would be a
bad bhikkhu and takes the requisites, he is like a thief, it is said in the
Visuddhimagga.
-------
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 2-8. "Accharaasa`nghaatamattampi ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dutiya.m
> jhaana.m bhaaveti ...pe... tatiya.m jhaana.m bhaaveti ...pe...
> catuttha.m jhaana.m bhaaveti ...pe... metta.m cetovimutti.m bhaaveti
> ...pe... karu.na.m cetovimutti.m bhaaveti ...pe... mudita.m
> cetovimutti.m bhaaveti ...pe... upekkha.m cetovimutti.m bhaaveti ...pe....

> "Even for only one moment, O monks, if a monk developed the second
> jhana, the third jhana, the fourth jhana, or developed loving-kindness
> to the liberation of the mind, or compassion, altruistic joy or
> equanimity to the liberation of the mind, ..."
----- --
N : to add: Such a one may be called a monk.
Instead of: to the liberation of the mind: which is the liberation of heart.
cetovimutti:liberation of heart, this is said of jhaana. >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 9-12. Kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati aataapii sampajaano satimaa
> vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m;
> in body / contemplating the body / dwells / ardent / mindful /
> contemplative / should remove / in world / covetousness and displeasure
> Ardent, mindful and contemplative, (he) dwells contemplating the body
> in the body, (and) should remove covetousness and displeasure in the
> world;
-------
N: restraining covetousness and displeasure in the world.
---------
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 13-16. Anuppannaana.m paapakaana.m akusalaana.m dhammaana.m
> anuppaadaaya chanda.m janeti vaayamati viiriya.m aarabhati citta.m
> pagga.nhaati padahati;
> not arisen / wicked / not good / of thoughts / for non-rising /
> resolution / makes / endeavours / effort / exerts / mind / applies /
> exerts
> (One) endeavours (and) makes the resolution (and) effort to apply
> (and) exert the mind for the non-rising of wicked (and) unwholesome
> thoughts not arisen;
-------
N: unwholesome qualities (or states).
----------
>
> uppannaana.m paapakaana.m akusalaana.m dhammaana.m pahaanaaya chanda.m
> janeti vaayamati viiriya.m aarabhati citta.m pagga.nhaati padahati.

> (one) endeavours (and) makes the resolution (and) effort to apply
> (and) exert the mind for the abandoning of wicked (and) unwholesome
> thoughts arisen.
--------
N: that have arisen.
--------
> (and) exert the mind for the rising of wholesome thoughts not arisen;
-------
N:  that have not arisen.
---------
> uppannaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m .thitiyaa asammosaaya
> bhiyyobhaavaaya vepullaaya bhaavanaaya paaripuuriyaa chanda.m janeti
> vaayamati viiriya.m aarabhati citta.m pagga.nhaati padahati.
> (one) endeavours (and) makes the resolution (and) effort to apply
> (and) exert the mind for the continuity, non-confusion, further
> development, full development, cultivation and completion of wholesome
> thoughts arisen.
-------
N: .thitiyaa: establishment.
bhaavanaaya paaripuuriyaa: cultivation and accomplishment.
--------- >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 17-20. Chandasamaadhipadhaanasa`nkhaarasamannaagata.m iddhipaada.m
> bhaaveti... viiriyasamaadhipadhaanasa`nkhaarasamannaagata.m
> iddhipaada.m bhaaveti... cittasamaadhipadhaanasa`nkhaarasamannaagata.m
> iddhipaada.m bhaaveti...
> viima.msaasamaadhipadhaanasa`nkhaarasamannaagata.m iddhipaada.m
> bhaaveti....

> Develops the basis of power comprising volitional effort on the
> concentration of resolution, energy, the mind and investigation...
-------
N: sa.nkhaara : I would not translate as volitional effort, rather:
formation.
develops the basis of power that is provided with (of which the features
are) desire, concentration and effort....
--------
Nina.

Dear Keren and Stephen,
op 28-05-2006 15:57 schreef Stephen Hodge op s.hodge@...:
>
> The Pali word often translated as "omniscient" is 'sabba~n~nuu', usually
> predicated of the Buddha.  However, I suspect that the Pali word does not
> have quite the same scope as the English word.  I think one can say that a
> Buddha knows everything that is important to know but not literally
> everything.
-------
N: There are many texts in the Patisambhidhamagga and also in Commentaries.
He knows everything that he puts his attention to. Not everything at the
same time, since each citta only experiences one object at a time.
Nina.

Nina wrote:

N: There are many texts in the Patisambhidhamagga and also in Commentaries.
He knows everything that he puts his attention to. Not everything at the
same time, since each citta only experiences one object at a time.
-----
The difficulty, for me, is this:  unqualified omniscience implies that
everything is pre-determined.  If a Buddha knows everything to which he puts
his attention, then he must know all future events.  To be able to know
them, they must necessarily be already fixed or pre-determined.  So, if I
roll a pair of dice, a Buddha would know, if he puts his attention to it,
the outcome.  The outcome is no longer the result of chance as gamblers
might assume.  In the case of individual actions, this also means that there
is no free-will -- one's choice of actions are fixed and pre-determined
since it is or can be known in advance by a Buddha.  This seems to be a big
problem which will lead to the same kind of sophistry to which theistic
religions must resort in order to explain the reality of free-will even
though God knows everything in advance.

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge

Dear Nina,

thanks. "The lasting of a fingersnap", is in Chinese "tan2 zhi3 zhi1
jian1".

see: http://notify.usts.edu.cn/chengyu/MKangShow.php?id=9784&type=20

Interestingly, the Chinese translation is (literally) "between a
finger-snap", i.e. not even the entire duration of the snap! With
today's concept of time, even in between a finger-snap is not short
enough. However, the point is well-made with the expression, and is
comprehensible to most people without the need to introduce scientific
concepts of time. So, yes, I have no problem with "the duration of a
fingersnap", but I hope to introduce some variations at times.

Thanks for the advice of the sentence structure.

arittajjhaana: literally "not free of jhana", I would think "no lack
of jhana" in the sense of keeping and practising jhana. How about
"occupied with (the practise) of jhana"?

ovaadapatikara: I am thinking "deliberating, thinking over, the
advice", i.e. not taking things at face value.

amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m bhu~njati: a clearer expression is "he eats
the people's almsfood not (given) in vain". What do you think?

Putting it together again:

"Accharaasa`nghaatamattampi ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhu pa.thama.m jhaana.m
bhaaveti, aya.m vuccati, bhikkhave -- 'bhikkhu arittajjhaano viharati,
satthusaasanakaro ovaadapatikaro, amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m bhu~njati'.

"Even for the duration of a finger-snap, O monks, if a monk developed
the first jhana, monks, this is called -- 'a bhikkhu, occupied with
the practise of jhana (he) lives, complying with the Buddha's
teachings and thinking over the exhortations, (he) eats the people's
almsfood not given in vain'.

cetovimutti: between 'mind' and 'heart', I would prefer 'mind'.
Bhikkhu Bodhi also has it as "liberation of mind". In today's context,
the heart, more often than not, refers to the biological organ.

What do you think?

metta,
Yong Peng.


--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:

I like the expression; even for the lasting of a fingersnap,
Accharaasa`nghaatamattam. Would you not like to keep it?

> 1. "Accharaasa`nghaatamattampi ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhu pa.thama.m
> jhaana.m bhaaveti, aya.m vuccati, bhikkhave --
> "Even for only one moment, O monks, if a monk developed the first
> jhana, monks, this is said --

N: After bhikkhave there should be: bhikkhu ( put at the next
sentence, but should be placed forward). This belongs together:  aya.m
vuccati,, bhikkhave -- 'bhikkhu'. The last word, bhikkhu belongs to
aya.m vuccati. He (aya.m) is called a bhikkhu. This is essential: he
is a true bhikkhu if he develops the first jhaana, etc. An exhortation.

N: arittajjhaano: this could mean: his jhaana is not in vain. (PTS
has: not empty of result).
ovaadapatikaro: taking his advice,
amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m bhu~njati': he eats the people's alsmfood
not in vain.

> 2-8. "Accharaasa`nghaatamattampi ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dutiya.m
> jhaana.m bhaaveti ...pe... tatiya.m jhaana.m bhaaveti ...pe...
> catuttha.m jhaana.m bhaaveti ...pe... metta.m cetovimutti.m bhaaveti
> ...pe... karu.na.m cetovimutti.m bhaaveti ...pe... mudita.m
> cetovimutti.m bhaaveti ...pe... upekkha.m cetovimutti.m bhaaveti
...pe....

N: cetovimutti:liberation of heart

Dear Yong Peng,

op 29-05-2006 14:24 schreef Ong Yong Peng op pali.smith@...:
>
> arittajjhaana: literally "not free of jhana", I would think "no lack
> of jhana" in the sense of keeping and practising jhana. How about
> "occupied with (the practise) of jhana"?
--------
N: Not devoid of jhaana, litterally. What you suggest seems all right, but
is it not too free? Engaged with is another possibility.
---------
>
Y.P. ovaadapatikara: I am thinking "deliberating, thinking over, the
> advice", i.e. not taking things at face value.
-------
N: I had:  taking his advice, I am more thinking of a humble attitude. After
all, it is the Buddha's advice.
---------
>
Y.P. amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m bhu~njati: a clearer expression is "he eats
> the people's almsfood not (given) in vain". What do you think?
------------
N: Yes, I think it is all right.
--------
> Putting it together again:
>
> "Accharaasa`nghaatamattampi ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhu pa.thama.m jhaana.m
> bhaaveti, aya.m vuccati, bhikkhave -- 'bhikkhu arittajjhaano viharati,
> satthusaasanakaro ovaadapatikaro, amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m bhu~njati'.
>
> "Even for the duration of a finger-snap, O monks, if a monk developed
> the first jhana, monks, this is called -- 'a bhikkhu,
--------
N: I would turn around the order, and also aya.m: he, or such a one (instead
of this).
O monks, if a monk develops the first jhana, even for the duration of a
finger-snap, he is called -- 'a bhikkhu'.
-------
Y.P.: cetovimutti: between 'mind' and 'heart', I would prefer 'mind'.
> Bhikkhu Bodhi also has it as "liberation of mind". In today's context,
> the heart, more often than not, refers to the biological organ.
------
N: yes, mind is better.
Nina.

Dear Nina and Stephen,
I put some of Ninas old letters about this topic here;

http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=95
Robert

What's New at Access to Insight
Monday 2006-05-29

2006-05-29 - Calling all beta-testers!

For well over a year now, a small group of longtime friends of ATI has quietly
been plugging away at developing » Vicaya, a search engine that will accompany
the forthcoming 2006 CD-ROM edition of Access to Insight. Vicaya version
0.1.6 is now ready for general testing. [http://vicaya.sourceforge.net/]

You can help by » downloading it and trying it out. (The file is about 37
MB, so you'll probably want a fast Internet connection.)
[http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=113008]

If you have any comments, please post them to the » Vicaya User List.
[http://www.accesstoinsight.org/news/https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinf\
o/vicaya-user]

The more people we can get testing it now, the less likely it is that there
will be problems with it later on.

P.S. I don't yet have a firm release date for the CD. Maybe autumn. Watch
this space for future announcements.

Dear Stephen,

Thanks for the answer, and I found the Tevijjavacchagotta Sutta of the
MN to be very helpful.

Keren

The Meaning of Dhamma, no 3.

The following meaning of dhamma explained in the Dhammapada-Atthakata, is
dhamma as an entity without a living soul (nissatta, nijjiva):
<"Tasmi.m khopana samaye dhammaa honti, khandhaa hontii"ti (dha. sa. 121)
Then, at that time dhammas occur, khandhas occur.

aya.mnissattadhammo naama, nijjiivadhammotipi eso eva.
this is dhamma without living being (non-substantial), it is also merely
dhamma without life.
Tesu imasmi.m .thaane nissattanijjiivadhammo adhippeto.
As to these, dhamma devoid of a living soul is meant in this case. >

So atthato tayo aruupino khandhaa vedanaakkhandho sa~n~naakkhandho
sa'nkhaarakkhandhoti.
As to the meaning of this, there are the three mental aggregates of feeling,
remembrance and formations (all cetasikas apart from feeling and
remembrance).>

N: Remark: the text quoted from the Dhammasangani (first Book of the
Abhidhamma) states: ³At the time of consciousness coming into existence,
there occur dhammas.² Thus, the aggregate of consciousness
(vi~n`naa.nakkhandha) which is also a mental aggregate, is mentioned first,
and then the other three mental aggregates denoted as dhammas are explained.
If we do not see the whole context we may not understand why three mental
aggregates are mentioned separately. All five khandhas are devoid of a
living being.

--------
The ³Atthasaalinii² (38, Co. to the Dhammasangani) summarizes different
meanings of the word dhamma:
Dhammasaddo panaaya.m pariyatti-hetu-gu.na-nissatta-nijjiivata-adiisu
dissati.
And the word dhamma is used in the sense of scriptural text (pariyatti),
virtue  (gu.na), absence of an entity, living thing (nissatta, nijjiva),
etc.

Aya~nhi "dhamma.m pariyaapu.naati sutta.m geyyan"ti-aadiisu
(a. ni. 4.102) pariyattiya.m dissati.
In such passages as, ³This one studies the Dhamma, the Sutta and the
Geyya... dhamma means ³the Scriptures².

"Hetumhi ~naa.na.m dhamma pa.tisambhidaa"ti-aadiisu (vibha. 720) hetumhi.
In such passages as ,²Knowledge of root-conditions is analysis of dhamma
(pa.tisambhidaa)-dhamma means root-condition or cause.
  ---------
           "Na hi dhammo adhammo ca, ubho samavipaakino;
           adhammo niraya.m neti, dhammo paapeti suggatin"ti.
           (theragaa. 304; jaa. 1.15.386)-

In such passages as ³dhamma, adhamma bear no equal fruit:
  adhamma leads to hell, dhamma causes one to reach heaven², dhamma means
³virtue² or ³good quality².
-------------
""dhammesu dhammaanupassii viharatii"ti-aadiisu (dii. ni. 2.373)
nissattanijjiivataaya.m.
and again, ³he abides watchful over certain dhammas²-dhamma implies absence
of an entity or living soul.²....

Remarks: The last sentence refers to the fourth Application of Mindfulness:
contemplating dhammas in dhammas. All objects of mindfulness which have not
been classified in the first three Applications of Mindfulness are
classified in the fourth Application of Mindfulness. This Application
includes the cetasikas which are the five hindrances, it includes the five
khandhas, the six internal and the six external aayatanas (sense-bases), the
seven factors of enlightenment and the four noble Truths. These are all
dhammas without a living soul, they are not a person, not a being, not self.

******
Nina.

Dear Stephen,
you had a good point asking about knowing the future and  predestination.
However, knowing the future leaves enough room for making decisions doing
this or that. We are not under the yoke of predestination. Cittas and
cetasikas perform their functions according to conditions.
Robert gave here a link, and I hope it can be of help to you. It is from
message 2, but I do not know you get this without logging in.
Nina.

op 30-05-2006 05:29 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@...:

> Dear Nina and Stephen,
> I put some of Ninas old letters about this topic here;
>
> http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=95

Dear Nina,

thanks again. Thanks for aya.m = such, and correcting the sentence
structure. It sounds much better now in English:

"O monks, if a monk developed the first jhana, even for the duration
of a finger-snap, monks, such is called -- 'a bhikkhu, ...

For 'arittajjhaana', I agree 'engaged with jhana' is a good choice.

For 'ovaadapatikara', I still think it is about 'thorough analysis of
the teachings'. I agree that being humble is a virtue, but without any
analysis and deliberation of the teachings, true wisdom does not
arise, and the almsfood from the people is given in vain.

For "vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m", I think it should be "(he)
should remove covetousness and displeasure in the world", i.e. become
an Arhat.

For "sa.nkhaara", I am not sure. Ven. Nyanatiloka (in his Buddhist
Dictionary, under iddhi-paada) has "concentration of intention
(chanda-samaadhi) accompanied by effort of will
(padhaana-sankhaara-samannaagata). Apparently, he has use 'effort of
will' for 'padhaana-sankhaara'.

see: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/iddhi_paada.htm

I shall try analysing the first compound in another way:

chandasamaadhipadhaanasa`nkhaarasamannaagata = chandassa samaadhino
padhaanasa`nkhaarasamannaagata: leading to the effort and formation of
concentration of resolution.

What do you think?

metta,
Yong Peng.


--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:

> arittajjhaana: literally "not free of jhana", I would think "no lack
> of jhana" in the sense of keeping and practising jhana. How about
> "occupied with (the practise) of jhana"?

N: Not devoid of jhaana, litterally. What you suggest seems all right,
but is it not too free? Engaged with is another possibility.

> Y.P. ovaadapatikara: I am thinking "deliberating, thinking over, the
> advice", i.e. not taking things at face value.

N: I had:  taking his advice, I am more thinking of a humble attitude.
After all, it is the Buddha's advice.

--- Previously ---

vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m
N: restraining covetousness and displeasure in the world.

N: sa.nkhaara: I would not translate as volitional effort, rather:
formation.
develops the basis of power that is provided with (of which the
features are) desire, concentration and effort....

Omniscient  in saskrit  has 3 interesting  versions


1. Said of gods and men , esp. of ministers and philosophers...
                                                         the word in sanskrit
is..........sarvajJa

2. Reffering to learned (noun)    ...the word  in sanskrit is.     ......... 
vizvavid

3. all-knowing , omniscient , the Supreme Being... word is   ........   
servavid


I suppost Pali should have the close cognates

biloo_5





---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The issue of "free will" in the context of the Buddha's teaching might
be problematic. If everything has causes and conditions, how can "free
will" operate? "Free will" seems to be a concept which hints that
there is some action or intention "outside" or "beyond" these causes
and conditions. If not, "free will" must have its own causes and
conditions. Than what is the meaning of "free" here, in the dependent
origination...?
Also, time and its fragmentation might only be a concept of the un-
awakened mind...

With Metta,
Keren

Dear Yong Peng,
op 30-05-2006 11:18 schreef Ong Yong Peng op pali.smith@...:

> "O monks, if a monk developed the first jhana, even for the duration
> of a finger-snap, monks, such is called -- 'a bhikkhu, ...
------
N: In English we say: such a one. Or he.. Not just such.
--------
Y.P. For 'ovaadapatikara', I still think it is about 'thorough analysis of
> the teachings'. I agree that being humble is a virtue, but without any
> analysis and deliberation of the teachings, true wisdom does not
> arise, and the almsfood from the people is given in vain.
--------
N: PTS has: he is one who takes the master's advice. I am more inclined to
this. But I feel incapable to decide about such things. There are many
possibilities. It would be good if some experts good give us advice, ovaada.
----------
Y.P. For "vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m", I think it should be "(he)
> should remove covetousness and displeasure in the world", i.e. become
> an Arhat.
-------
N: This occurs in the satipa.t.thaanasutta and here the sutta speaks about
the development of understanding so that covetousness and displeasure will
be removed. But these cannot be eradicated immediately, it is a process.
Therefore I am more inclined to: < restraining covetousness and displeasure
in the world.>
the world means the five khandhas, according to the Co.
--------

  Y.P. > For "sa.nkhaara", I am not sure. Ven. Nyanatiloka (in his Buddhist
> Dictionary, under iddhi-paada) has "concentration of intention
> (chanda-samaadhi) accompanied by effort of will
> (padhaana-sankhaara-samannaagata). Apparently, he has use 'effort of
> will' for 'padhaana-sankhaara'.
-------
N: Very hard to understand what effort of will is. As to sankhaara, I think
of: avijjaa conditions sankhaara: kusala kamma and akusala kamma. Kamma is
cetanaa cetasika, will or intention. it is the leader of the formations
khandha, the sankhaarakkhandha.
--------

Y.P.: see: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/iddhi_paada.htm
>
> I shall try analysing the first compound in another way:
>
> chandasamaadhipadhaanasa`nkhaarasamannaagata = chandassa samaadhino
> padhaanasa`nkhaarasamannaagata: leading to the effort and formation of
> concentration of resolution.
>
--------
N: : samannaagata: endowed with, provided with.
I had: develops the basis of power that is provided with (of which the
features are) desire, concentration and effort.
We can use the word and in between to make it more understandable, avoiding
such a complicated compound. But this is just my personal idea.
Nina.

That might be the reason why a famous Buddhist
restaurant in Brussels is called "Le Paradoxe".

As I understand, it is precisely the understanding
that every thing is conditioned
(paticcasamutpada/pratityasamutpada), to begin with
the "self", a mere bunch of customs, habits and
reflexes, that makes one free. Because one admits that
he/she is completely conditioned, they can set up to
try understanding how conditioning works in order to
use it - condition oneself -  for one's own chosen
aims and not for society's or the species's aims. One
is then free or as free as one can be.

Yours with Metta,

Jacques

--- keren_arbel <keren_arbel@...> wrote:

> The issue of "free will" in the context of the
> Buddha's teaching might
> be problematic. If everything has causes and
> conditions, how can "free
> will" operate? "Free will" seems to be a concept
> which hints that
> there is some action or intention "outside" or
> "beyond" these causes
> and conditions. If not, "free will" must have its
> own causes and
> conditions. Than what is the meaning of "free" here,
> in the dependent
> origination...?
> Also, time and its fragmentation might only be a
> concept of the un-
> awakened mind...
>
> With Metta,
> Keren
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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Dear Nina,

thanks. Yes, I look forward to opinions from the rest of the list.
But, I took a look on AN1.6 Accharaasa`nghaata Vagga. In its
commentary, ovaadapatikara = ovaadakaaraka = heeding advice. Unless we
have a better understanding of 'patikara', I am happy to accept this
commentarial interpretation.

For "vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m", I have no problem with the
Co.'s meaning of the world (khandhas). And, I also agree with your
comments, but I read 'loke' as 'in this lifetime', or 'in this very
life'. So, I would prefer 'vineyya' as 'should remove', rather than
'should restrain'.

For 'chandasamaadhipadhaanasa`nkhaarasamannaagata', you seems to have
chanda.m ca samaadhi.m ca padhaana.m ca sa`nkhaarasamannaagata. I
wonder what others have to say.

metta,
Yong Peng.


--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:

> Y.P. For 'ovaadapatikara', I still think it is about 'thorough
> analysis of the teachings'. I agree that being humble is a virtue,
> but without any analysis and deliberation of the teachings, true
> wisdom does not arise, and the almsfood from the people is given
> in vain.

N: PTS has: he is one who takes the master's advice. I am more
inclined to this. But I feel incapable to decide about such things.
There are many possibilities. It would be good if some experts good
give us advice, ovaada.

> Y.P. For "vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m", I think it should
> be "(he) should remove covetousness and displeasure in the world",
> i.e. become an Arhat.

N: This occurs in the satipa.t.thaanasutta and here the sutta speaks
about the development of understanding so that covetousness and
displeasure will be removed. But these cannot be eradicated
immediately, it is a process. Therefore I am more inclined to: <
restraining covetousness and displeasure in the world.>
the world means the five khandhas, according to the Co.

> I shall try analysing the first compound in another way:
> chandasamaadhipadhaanasa`nkhaarasamannaagata = chandassa samaadhino
> padhaanasa`nkhaarasamannaagata: leading to the effort and formation
> of concentration of resolution.

N: samannaagata: endowed with, provided with.
I had: develops the basis of power that is provided with (of which the
features are) desire, concentration and effort.
We can use the word and in between to make it more understandable,
avoiding such a complicated compound. But this is just my personal idea.

Jacques Huynen wrote:

> As I understand, it is precisely the understanding
> that every thing is conditioned
> (paticcasamutpada / pratityasamutpada), to begin with
> the "self", a mere bunch of customs, habits and
> reflexes, that makes one free.

True, with some caveats, but that is not at issue here.

> for one's own chosen aims ...

This is the problem, as I see it -- choice is just another way of saying
free-will.  There is actually no choice -- it is illusory -- if a Buddha is
omniscient in the accepted sense of the term.  Even if we say that there is
no self to make choices, the same problem arises.  The course of the stream
of events (dhammas) to which we apply the label Jacques or Stephen would
still be pre-determined.

In the discussion to which Robert kindly pointed me, Nina quoted the
Patisambhidamagga Ch 72 (p. 131):

"What is the Perfect One's omniscient knowledge ?"
"It knows without exception all that is formed and unformed, thus it is
omniscient knowledge: [snip] All that is future it knows,... "

For a Buddha to know everything "without exception" in the future, these
things must all be fixed and pre-determined.  There is no way to avoid this
conclusion.  This knowledge of future things that are known include, as we
are told, a Buddha's fore-knowledge of the time etc of the liberation or
awakening of other beings.  If he knows that event, then he must also,
logically, know all events in a person's life leading up to that moment.
Thus, again, these events must be pre-determined.  The chain of karmic
events also becomes entirely fixed in reality, with no possibility of
deviation.

To come back to the issue which prompted this discussion, the question then
is whether the traditional understanding of "omnscience" is mistaken or else
do the teachings of the Buddha ever state or imply that choice in one's
course of actions is illusory.   I tend take the former view, though I might
be wrong.

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge

Dear Yong Peng,
op 31-05-2006 11:24 schreef Ong Yong Peng op pali.smith@...:

> But, I took a look on AN1.6 Accharaasa`nghaata Vagga. In its
> commentary, ovaadapatikara = ovaadakaaraka = heeding advice. Unless we
> have a better understanding of 'patikara', I am happy to accept this
> commentarial interpretation.
------
N: Very good you found this in the commentary.
-------------
>
Y.P.: For "vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m", I have no problem with the
> Co.'s meaning of the world (khandhas). And, I also agree with your
> comments, but I read 'loke' as 'in this lifetime', or 'in this very
> life'. So, I would prefer 'vineyya' as 'should remove', rather than
> 'should restrain'.
------
N: vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m is exactly the same as in the
satipa.t.thaanasutta.
I quote from the commentary as translated by Ven. Soma:

<"In this world." In just this body. Here the body [kaya] is the world
[loka], in the sense of a thing crumbling.

As covetousness and grief are abandoned in feeling, consciousness, and
mental objects, too, the Vibhanga says: "Even the five aggregates of
clinging are the world."

Covetousness stands for sense desire; and grief, for anger. As sense desire
and anger are the principal hindrances, the abandoning of the hindrances is
stated by the overcoming of covetousness and grief.>
N: It crumbles away, lujjati, thus it is the world, loka. See S.n. IV, 52.
(what crumbles away: the eye, objects, eye-consciousness etc. )
-------
Nina.

Dear Stephen,
op 31-05-2006 15:53 schreef Stephen Hodge op s.hodge@...:
  In the discussion to which Robert kindly pointed me, Nina quoted the
> Patisambhidamagga Ch 72 (p. 131)...

> To come back to the issue which prompted this discussion, the question then
> is whether the traditional understanding of "omnscience" is mistaken or else
> do the teachings of the Buddha ever state or imply that choice in one's
> course of actions is illusory.   I tend take the former view, though I might
> be wrong.
----
N: If we approach the problem with western logica we may keep on being
puzzled. Perhaps this quote can help:
we read VII, 32:
<Herein, the Blessed One's possession of clear vision consists in the
fulfilment of Omniscience (Ps. I, 131) , while his possession of conduct
consists in the fulfilment of the Great Compassion (Ps. 1, 126). He knows
through omniscience what is good and harmful for all beings, and through
compassion he warns them of harm and exhorts them to do good. >

He helps people to see the disadvantage of akusala and the benefit of
kusala. He had this in mind. We read that he surveyed the world with his
Buddha Eye to see whether someone's understanding was ripe so that he could
attain enlightenment. This does not mean that people are slaves of
predestination.
We have a superficial knowledge of people's inclinations and can predict
more or less how their reactions will be, even on a list like this. The
Buddha had an unobstructed knowledge of all such things.
We can also reduce the problem to: people act according to the conditions
that make them act, and where is the free will if whatever one does is
conditioned, as Jacques mentioned. With this approach the dilemma will not
be solved. One can reason on endlessly.
The more we study the teachings the more we become impressed by the Buddha's
wisdom. He found out all the different types of conditions that operate in
our life. All about cittas and cetasikas, and their intricate conditions,
the many ways they condiiton one another. All about ruupas. That is the
meaning of his omniscience. All that is formed, in other words, conditioned,
and unformed, in other words nibbaana. If we approach the question in this
way we shall have a little more understanding of what the Buddha's wisdom
is. We hear the word omniscience, but this may only be a word to us if we do
not develop understanding of what he taught.
Nina.

Dear Stephen and Nina,

I remember reading a Tika which said something to the effect that
only certain beings have a fixed destiny. These are ones like
leading disciples who have gained a prediction from a past Buddha
that in the future they will become such and such a disciple under
this or that future Buddha.
It might be that the comment in the Patisambhidhimagga is given some
qualification in the tikas. In any event the range of a Buddha's
knowledge is one of the unknoawables, impossible to imgaine how vast
it is.
Robert
In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Stephen,
> op 31-05-2006 15:53 schreef Stephen Hodge op s.hodge@...:
>  In the discussion to which Robert kindly pointed me, Nina quoted
the
> > Patisambhidamagga Ch 72 (p. 131)...
>
> > To come back to the issue which prompted this discussion, the
question then
> > is whether the traditional understanding of "omnscience" is
mistaken or else
> > do the teachings of the Buddha ever state or imply that choice
in one's
> > course of actions is illusory.   I tend take the former view,
though I might
> > be wrong.
> ----
> N: If we approach the problem with western logica we may keep on
being
> puzzled. Perhaps this quote can help:
> we read VII, 32:
> <Herein, the Blessed One's possession of clear vision consists in
the
> fulfilment of Omniscience (Ps. I, 131) , while his possession of
conduct
> consists in the fulfilment of the Great Compassion (Ps. 1, 126).
He knows
> through omniscience what is good and harmful for all beings, and
through
> compassion he warns them of harm and exhorts them to do good. >
>
> He helps people to see the disadvantage of akusala and the benefit
of
> kusala. He had this in mind. We read that he surveyed the world
with his
> Buddha Eye to see whether someone's understanding was ripe so that
he could
> attain enlightenment. This does not mean that people are slaves of
> predestination.
> We have a superficial knowledge of people's inclinations and can
predict
> more or less how their reactions will be, even on a list like
this. The
> Buddha had an unobstructed knowledge of all such things.
> We can also reduce the problem to: people act according to the
conditions
> that make them act, and where is the free will if whatever one
does is
> conditioned, as Jacques mentioned. With this approach the dilemma
will not
> be solved. One can reason on endlessly.
> The more we study the teachings the more we become impressed by
the Buddha's
> wisdom. He found out all the different types of conditions that
operate in
> our life. All about cittas and cetasikas, and their intricate
conditions,
> the many ways they condiiton one another. All about ruupas. That
is the
> meaning of his omniscience. All that is formed, in other words,
conditioned,
> and unformed, in other words nibbaana. If we approach the question
in this
> way we shall have a little more understanding of what the Buddha's
wisdom
> is. We hear the word omniscience, but this may only be a word to
us if we do
> not develop understanding of what he taught.
> Nina.
>