Dear Jim,
I agree with most of what you say, esecially the observation about the
subject being 'embeded' in the verbal endings- which ends the lingering
doubt about the commonality between the "agent word" and the "action word".
I hope the group appreciates the fact that we are here confronted with the
philosophical and other principles of classical Indian grammar, which are
replete with the  conceptions of Skt grammarians. The word 'dabba' (dravya)
and 'kaaraka are' important examples.
I think we still have to find a word good enough to translate 'adhikarana'
in the compound 'tulyaadhikara.na'.
I trust the Pali group will excuse me for mentioning a personal fact. I
could not save the life of the beloved patient for whom I was caring, thus
ending another chapter of my life.

With best wishes,
Mahinda

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:

>
>
> I still have trouble seeing the meaning of 'mport' for the 'attha' in
> 'atthapa~ncaka.m' and 'tikattho'. I'm seeing 'object' or 'property'
> instead. E.g., the nominative case inflection of 'so puriso' has some
> properties in common with the 3rd person termination of 'gacchati'
> especially in their function of the agen-kaaraka. The subject 'so
> puriso' seems to stand in apposition to 'ti' in the verb. Unlike
> English verbs, Pali verbs have its subject embedded within. The noun
> or pronoun (in the nominative) then describes this subject in greater
> detail. I also wonder if one can read the idea of governor in
> adhikara.na, i.e., the personal termainations govern the subject in
> the nominative.
>
>
> > 'gacchati' (pa.thama-purisa predicate), of which padhaanadabba,
> sankhyaa,
> > and kaaraka of of the predicate seem to be given as similar to
> dabba,
> > sankhyaa and kaaraka of the subject. All this is tentative; it is a
> bit
> > hazy to me yet.
> > Is the reading 'ekattha.m' right? Could it be 'ekatta.m' (oneness)?
>
> Yes, the reading is definitely 'ekatta.m'. 'ekattha.m' is my mistake.
> I have since gone over the passage several times and noticed 3
> omissions. I submit below, my corrected version:
>
> apica so puriso gacchatiityaadiisu so purisoti pade sakattha-dabba-
>
> li"nga-sa"nkhyaa-kaarakavasena atthapa~ncaka.m labbhati, gacchatiiti
> aakhyaatapadepi sakattha-padhaanadabba-appadhaanadabba-
> sa"nkhyaa-kaarakavasena atthapa~ncaka.m labbhati. tattha sabbesa.m
> gamanakriyaa sakattho naama, purisassa gamanakriyaa padhaanadabba.m
> naama, purisadabba.m appadhaanadabba.m naama, ekatta.m
> sa"nkhyaa naama, vaacakattaa kaarako naama, tesu appadhaanadabba-
> sa"nkhyaa-kaaraka-sa"nkhaatena tikatthena so purisoti pade dabba-
>
> sa"nkhyaa-kaarakasa"nkhaato tikattho samaano hoti. tena tulya.m
> samaana.m adhikara.na.m attho yassaati vacanatthena
> tulyaadhikara.nanti veditabba.m.
> -- from Kaccaayanatthadiipanii, pp.539-40 on Kc 410
>
> Best wishes,
> Jim
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Mahinda,

> Dear Jim,
> This seems to me to me to clarify the matter. I would like to mull
over it
> carefully. Right now I am busy caring for a seriously ill patient.
> On  the face of it, it appears to give a meaning like 'import' for
'attha',
> does it not? It speaks of 5  kinds of 'attha' in both 'puriso'
(subject) and

I still have trouble seeing the meaning of 'mport' for the 'attha' in
'atthapa~ncaka.m' and 'tikattho'. I'm seeing 'object' or 'property'
instead. E.g., the nominative case inflection of 'so puriso' has some
properties in common with the 3rd person termination of 'gacchati'
especially in their function of the agen-kaaraka. The subject 'so
puriso' seems to stand in apposition to 'ti' in the verb. Unlike
English verbs, Pali verbs have its subject embedded within. The noun
or pronoun (in the nominative) then describes this subject in greater
detail. I also wonder if one can read the idea of governor in
adhikara.na, i.e., the personal termainations govern the subject in
the nominative.

> 'gacchati' (pa.thama-purisa predicate), of which  padhaanadabba,
sankhyaa,
> and kaaraka of of the predicate seem to be given as similar to
dabba,
> sankhyaa and kaaraka of the subject.  All this is tentative; it is a
bit
> hazy to me yet.
>  Is the reading 'ekattha.m' right? Could it be 'ekatta.m' (oneness)?

Yes, the reading is definitely 'ekatta.m'. 'ekattha.m' is my mistake.
I have since gone over the passage several times and noticed 3
omissions. I submit below, my corrected version:

apica so puriso gacchatiityaadiisu so purisoti pade sakattha-dabba-
li"nga-sa"nkhyaa-kaarakavasena atthapa~ncaka.m labbhati, gacchatiiti
aakhyaatapadepi sakattha-padhaanadabba-appadhaanadabba-
sa"nkhyaa-kaarakavasena atthapa~ncaka.m labbhati. tattha sabbesa.m
gamanakriyaa sakattho naama, purisassa gamanakriyaa padhaanadabba.m
  naama, purisadabba.m appadhaanadabba.m naama, ekatta.m
sa"nkhyaa naama, vaacakattaa kaarako naama, tesu appadhaanadabba-
sa"nkhyaa-kaaraka-sa"nkhaatena tikatthena so purisoti pade dabba-
sa"nkhyaa-kaarakasa"nkhaato tikattho samaano hoti. tena tulya.m
samaana.m adhikara.na.m attho yassaati vacanatthena
tulyaadhikara.nanti veditabba.m.
     -- from Kaccaayanatthadiipanii, pp.539-40 on Kc 410

Best wishes,
Jim

Thanks Ven. Kumara. I frequently re-read suttas, but I tend to read Samyutta
less than the others because of the confusing numbering scheme and
difficulty in finding what I’m looking for in those 3 thousand suttas spread
over 2 volumes (b.bodhi’s book). Now that we’re in a digital age I hope
people can standardize on a more sensible addressing scheme, but until then
the general table chart is indeed very useful.



It’s pretty incredible that the entire pali canon, dictionaries,
visuddhimagga, abidhamma all fit in 25 megabytes compressed. Has anyone
tried to run the DPR on an iphone or other PDA yet?

-Frank





   _____

From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kumâra
Bhikkhu
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 2:20 AM
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Samyutta Number Conversion Table {RE: [Pali] Re: how does samyutta
map to DPR?}





Promoted by Frank's effort, I decided to solve an outstanding issue (as I
did for MLDB by creating a sutta name index).

Samyutta Number Conversion Table
http://f1.grp.
<http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/IF0KSzEfolg3vEgJcsM2LmLJL3KMDQ0S9XxKAL2cbpyYRm
geMfXfphz3zVpmCR_zT1RJCvzx2XX8jEVF11XRVVOeOloVl9M/Samyutta%20Number%20Conver
sion%20Table.pdf>
yahoofs.com/v1/IF0KSzEfolg3vEgJcsM2LmLJL3KMDQ0S9XxKAL2cbpyYRmgeMfXfphz3zVpmC
R_zT1RJCvzx2XX8jEVF11XRVVOeOloVl9M/Samyutta%20Number%20Conversion%20Table.pd
f
Table for easy conversion between traditional (DPR, CSCD) and modern (ATI,
CBD) of samyutta numbering.

This should be easier for you, Branko.

Should anyone like to have the source file, which I created with OOo Calc,
please feel free to ask me. While it's now in ODS format, I don't mind
converting it into Excel or HTML format.

kb, a geek monk

Branislav Kovacevic wrote thus at 03:54 23/11/2009:
>Dear Frank,
>unfortunately I'm not able to understand your algorithm. Obviously I'm not
a computer geek :)
>but have confidence it will be useful to more computer literate ones...
>
>Metta
>Branko
>
>
>
>--- On Sun, 11/22/09, frank <fcckuan@gmail. <mailto:fcckuan%40gmail.com>
com> wrote:
>
>From: frank <fcckuan@gmail. <mailto:fcckuan%40gmail.com> com>
>Subject: RE: [Pali] Re: how does samyutta map to DPR?
>To: Pali@yahoogroups. <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> com
>Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 5:20 PM
>
>Hi Branko,
>
> I think I understand now. This is the algorithm I came up with based on
>the info you provided: I made a color HTML table describing the conversion
>formula, which I uploaded to the pali files section.
>http://f1.grp.
<http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/EG4JS7B_xjrcMOk4A3H9IPMJ_2HtkhM9hFmhBprOTvv8v8
v> yahoofs.com/v1/EG4JS7B_xjrcMOk4A3H9IPMJ_2HtkhM9hFmhBprOTvv8v8v
>mNon0YtDyhIepU_bSN4i-sMYBZ-vi0vf8WcWpZeT3878R/calculate_samyutta_num_in%20_
D
>PR.html .
>
>
>
>Please have a look to verify the formula is correct.
>
>-Frank
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
>From: Pali@yahoogroups. <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> com
[mailto:Pali@yahoogroups. <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf Of
>Branislav Kovacevic
>Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 2:28 AM
>To: Pali@yahoogroups. <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> com
>Subject: [Pali] Re: how does samyutta map to DPR?
>
>
>
>
>
>Dear Frank
>
>Samyutta Nikaya is organized in three levels. The first is comprised of
five
>vaggas:
>
> 1 Sagâtha-vagga (samyuttas 1-11)
> 2 Nidâna-vagga (12-21)
> 3 Khandha-vagga (22-34)
> 4 Salâyatana-vagga (35-44)
> 5 Mahâ-vagga (45-56I)
>
>which are comprised of samyuttas and their numbers are indicated in
brackets
>above. These samyuttas are further divided into vaggas (again, which usualy
>have 10 suttas). Therefore in DPR you have "Book" (vaggas) dropdown menu
>(1-5) and another three below for: samyuttas, vaggas, suttas
>
>Following your example of Rahogata Sutta, SN 36.11, you shoud choose Book 4
>(Salâyatana-vagga, 35-44) and further in the three dropdown menus second
>item, Vedana Samyutta (36), which is divided into 3 vaggas. Since you are
>looking for 11th sutta, it will be probably in the second vagga. Therefore
>choose Rahogatta vagga and in the last menu the first sutta is the one you
>are looking for.
>
>I hope this is clear enough for you to search for other suttas too.
>
>Metta
>Branko
>
>--- On Sun, 11/22/09, frank <fcckuan@gmail. <mailto:fcckuan%40gmail.com>
>com> wrote:
>
>From: frank <fcckuan@gmail. <mailto:fcckuan%40gmail.com> com>
>Subject: how does samyutta map to DPR? RE: Duroiselle (Re: Q. [Pali]
>Dhammacakkappavattanasutta)
>To: Pali@yahoogroups. <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> com
>Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 5:04 AM
>
>
>
>First,
>
>Thanks for the great work on DPR! It's really an awesome tool that makes
>
>things much easier than lugging around and flipping through lots of
physical
>
>books. I'm hoping someone can explain how the different numbering systems
>
>work on the samyutta basket. I see DPR has 5 "books", each book as severl
>
>subdivisinos. What I'm trying to figure out is how to map the numbering
>
>scheme on Thanissaro's access to insight samyutta English translations to
do
>
>a side by side comparison with DPR. The current example of what I'm trying
>
>to research:
>
>http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ sn/sn36/sn36. 011.than. html
>
>which has this sutta heading:
>
>SN 36.11
>
>PTS: S iv 216
>
>CDB ii 1270
>
>Rahogata Sutta: Alone
>
>In DPR, there I just looked through books 1 through 5 until I finally found
>
>rahogata sutta in book 4, under rahogata vaggo. Is that the correct sutta?
I
>
>haven't started doing a word by word scan through DPR, but just looking at
>
>the rough word counts between the English sutta at ATI and the DPR version,
>
>the DPR version looks a lot shorter.
>
>In thanissaro's translation, paragraph 3:
>
>"And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation of fabrications. When
one
>
>has attained the first jhana, speech has ceased. When one has attained the
>
>second jhana, directed thought & evaluation have ceased. When one has
>
>attained the third jhana, rapture has ceased. When one has attained the
>
>fourth jhana, in-and-out breathing has ceased. When one has attained the
>
>dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has ceased.
>
>I wanted to look up the DPR pali so I can try to track down what pali
>
>Thanissaro based his translation for "speech has ceased" in first jhana.
>
>But in general I sure would like to make some sense out of how Samyuttas
are
>
>organized, and which mapping scheme corresponds with the one DPR is using.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>-Frank
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
>[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka <http://www.tipitaka.net> .net
>[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka
<http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/> .net/forge/pdf/
>[Files] http://www.geocitie <http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/>
s.com/paligroup/
>[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups. <mailto:pali%40yahoogroups.com> com
>Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
only.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
>[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka <http://www.tipitaka.net> .net
>[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka
<http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/> .net/forge/pdf/
>[Files] http://www.geocitie <http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/>
s.com/paligroup/
>[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups. <mailto:pali%40yahoogroups.com> com
>Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
only.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://stores.lulu.com/gunnargallmo
http://metrobloggen.se/esperanto
http://hubpages.com/profile/Gunnar+G%C3%A4llmo

--- Den mån 2009-11-23 skrev Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>:

>I tried the link files, geocities and saw that it is not available.

Geocities is no more - sabbe sa"nkhaaraa aniccaa...

Some of its material has been archived elsewhere, but I don't know how to find
it.

Gunnar



       __________________________________________________________
Låna pengar utan säkerhet. Jämför vilkor online hos Kelkoo.
http://www.kelkoo.se/c-100390123-lan-utan-sakerhet.html?partnerId=96915014

Dear Ven. Kumara and friends,

bhante, thank you for sending the links to Nibiru videos and websites. However,
I think it is irrelevant to our discussion. Besides, I think we should avoid
unnecessary speculations about sutta passages.

metta,
Yong Peng.


--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:

Bhante, I can't explain any correlation between "Nibiru" and "dutiyo suriyo"
given in the text.

Promoted by Frank's effort, I decided to solve an outstanding issue (as I did
for MLDB by creating a sutta name index).

Samyutta Number Conversion Table
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/IF0KSzEfolg3vEgJcsM2LmLJL3KMDQ0S9XxKAL2cbpyYRmgeMfX\
fphz3zVpmCR_zT1RJCvzx2XX8jEVF11XRVVOeOloVl9M/Samyutta%20Number%20Conversion%20Ta\
ble.pdf
Table for easy conversion between traditional (DPR, CSCD) and modern (ATI, CBD)
of samyutta numbering.

This should be easier for you, Branko.

Should anyone like to have the source file, which I created with OOo Calc,
please feel free to ask me. While it's now in ODS format, I don't mind
converting it into Excel or HTML format.

kb, a geek monk

Branislav Kovacevic wrote thus at 03:54 23/11/2009:
>Dear Frank,
>unfortunately I'm not able to understand your algorithm. Obviously I'm not a
computer geek :)
>but have confidence it will be useful to more computer literate ones...
>
>Metta
>Branko
>
>
>
>--- On Sun, 11/22/09, frank <fcckuan@...> wrote:
>
>From: frank <fcckuan@...>
>Subject: RE: [Pali] Re: how does samyutta map to DPR?
>To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 5:20 PM
>
>Hi Branko,
>
>   I think I understand now. This is the algorithm I came up with based on
>the info you provided: I made a color HTML table describing the conversion
>formula, which I uploaded to the pali files section.
>http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/EG4JS7B_xjrcMOk4A3H9IPMJ_2HtkhM9hFmhBprOTvv8v8v
>mNon0YtDyhIepU_bSN4i-sMYBZ-vi0vf8WcWpZeT3878R/calculate_samyutta_num_in%20_D
>PR.html  .
>
>
>
>Please have a look to verify the formula is correct.
>
>-Frank
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  _____
>
>From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
>Branislav Kovacevic
>Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 2:28 AM
>To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Pali] Re: how does samyutta map to DPR?
>
>
>
>
>
>Dear Frank
>
>Samyutta Nikaya is organized in three levels. The first is comprised of five
>vaggas:
>
>    1 Sagâtha-vagga (samyuttas 1-11)
>    2 Nidâna-vagga (12-21)
>    3 Khandha-vagga (22-34)
>    4 Salâyatana-vagga (35-44)
>    5 Mahâ-vagga (45-56I)
>
>which are comprised of samyuttas and their numbers are indicated in brackets
>above. These samyuttas are further divided into vaggas (again, which usualy
>have 10 suttas). Therefore in DPR you have "Book" (vaggas) dropdown menu
>(1-5) and another three below for: samyuttas, vaggas, suttas
>
>Following your example of Rahogata Sutta, SN 36.11, you shoud choose Book 4
>(Salâyatana-vagga, 35-44) and further in the three dropdown menus second
>item, Vedana Samyutta (36), which is divided into 3 vaggas. Since you are
>looking for 11th sutta, it will be probably in the second vagga. Therefore
>choose Rahogatta vagga and in the last menu the first sutta is the one you
>are looking for.
>
>I hope this is clear enough for you to search for other suttas too.
>
>Metta
>Branko
>
>--- On Sun, 11/22/09, frank <fcckuan@gmail. <mailto:fcckuan%40gmail.com>
>com> wrote:
>
>From: frank <fcckuan@gmail. <mailto:fcckuan%40gmail.com> com>
>Subject: how does samyutta map to DPR? RE: Duroiselle (Re: Q. [Pali]
>Dhammacakkappavattanasutta)
>To: Pali@yahoogroups. <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> com
>Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 5:04 AM
>
>
>
>First,
>
>Thanks for the great work on DPR! It's really an awesome tool that makes
>
>things much easier than lugging around and flipping through lots of physical
>
>books. I'm hoping someone can explain how the different numbering systems
>
>work on the samyutta basket. I see DPR has 5 "books", each book as severl
>
>subdivisinos. What I'm trying to figure out is how to map the numbering
>
>scheme on Thanissaro's access to insight samyutta English translations to do
>
>a side by side comparison with DPR. The current example of what I'm trying
>
>to research:
>
>http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ sn/sn36/sn36. 011.than. html
>
>which has this sutta heading:
>
>SN 36.11
>
>PTS: S iv 216
>
>CDB ii 1270
>
>Rahogata Sutta: Alone
>
>In DPR, there I just looked through books 1 through 5 until I finally found
>
>rahogata sutta in book 4, under rahogata vaggo. Is that the correct sutta? I
>
>haven't started doing a word by word scan through DPR, but just looking at
>
>the rough word counts between the English sutta at ATI and the DPR version,
>
>the DPR version looks a lot shorter.
>
>In thanissaro's translation, paragraph 3:
>
>"And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation of fabrications. When one
>
>has attained the first jhana, speech has ceased. When one has attained the
>
>second jhana, directed thought & evaluation have ceased. When one has
>
>attained the third jhana, rapture has ceased. When one has attained the
>
>fourth jhana, in-and-out breathing has ceased. When one has attained the
>
>dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has ceased.
>
>I wanted to look up the DPR pali so I can try to track down what pali
>
>Thanissaro based his translation for "speech has ceased" in first jhana.
>
>But in general I sure would like to make some sense out of how Samyuttas are
>
>organized, and which mapping scheme corresponds with the one DPR is using.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>-Frank
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
>[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
>[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
>[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
>[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
only.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
>[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
>[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
>[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
>[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
only.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Dear Venerable Pandita and Yong Peng,

I tried the link files, geocities and saw that it is not available.
Nina.
Op 23-nov-2009, om 8:48 heeft Soe Naung het volgende geschreven:

> I have uploaded 2 research papers concerning Pali studies,
> especially Vinaya
> (monastic law) in the Pali tradition.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Another feature of DPR is that it's actually has the Yangon (6th) Council
version, while the supposed CSCD has the Mandalay (5th) Council version. While
some may still have trouble accepting that, it's quite obvious if you just
compare certain suttas where some obvious changes has been made, like Tirokutta
Sutta in Khuddhakapatha. If you look into the printed Burmese CS scriptures, it
does not correspond with CSCD, but does with DPR.

It's great though to have both versions in digital!

kb

frank wrote thus at 13:04 22/11/2009:
>First,
>
>  Thanks for the great work on DPR! It's really an awesome tool that makes
>things much easier than lugging around and flipping through lots of physical
>books.

Dear Yong Peng,
thank you very much.
--------
Y.P. 'cakkhumanto ruupaani dakkhantii'ti, evameva.m bhotaa gotamena
anekapariyaayena dhammo pakaasito.

'(those) with eyes see the forms' - just so the teaching (is)
expounded in divers methods by the venerable Gotama.

--------

N: the sentence cakkhumanto ruupaani dakkhantii'ti  belongs to the
previous.

Now we have: andhakaare vaa telapajjota.m dhaareyya cakkhumanto
ruupaani dakkhantii'ti:just as one should bear a light in the
darkness so that those who have eyes see objects.

---------

Esaaha.m bhavanta.m gotama.m sara.na.m gacchaami dhamma~nca
bhikkhusa`ngha~nca.

Y.P.: That I go to venerable Gotama, the Teachings, and the community
of monks for refuge.

----------

   N: PTS has: I myself... eso reinforces aha.m, it is very close
together: esaaha.m.

---------

Y.P. Upaasaka.m ma.m bhava.m gotamo dhaaretu ajjatagge paa.nupeta.m
sara.na.m gata"nti.

May the venerable Gotama remember me, the layman (who) had taken
refuge, from today until life lasts.

-------

N: dhaaretu: accept me as a layfollower, as one who has taken refuge...

---------

YP: "ko nu kho, bho gotama, hetu ko paccayo yena midhekacce sattaa
kaayassa bhedaa para.m mara.naa apaaya.m duggati.m vinipaata.m
niraya.m upapajjantii"ti?

"Now, Venerable Gotama, what indeed (is) the cause, what (is) the
reason, for which some beings in this life are reborn in a state of
woe, a realm of misery, a place of suffering, a hell, after the
dissolution of the body and after death?"

------

N: Instead of ‘for which’: why some beings...

----------

Y.P.:

"Katattaa ca, braahma.na, akatattaa ca.

"Acts, O brahmin, and abstentions.

-------

N: Commissions. O brahmin,  and omissions.

(later on explianed: commission of akusala, omission of kusala).

***********************************************

The commentary elaborates on taking one's refuge. This extinguishes
fear, dukkha, an unhappy rebirth, and defilements. Refuge, this is a
name for the Triple Gem.

The name Buddha means the extinquishment of fear of all beings by
following what is beneficial and turning away from what is not
beneficial.

Dhamma: leads to the end of rebirth and leads to the happiness of the
world.

Sangha: it gives pure fruition for people who pay reverence, even
when they are few in number.

The refuge may be lokuttara or lokiya. When it is lokuttara, nibbaana
is the object because of the eradication of defilements. When it is
lokiya the excellent qualities of the Buddha and so on are the object.

The taking of refuge gives confidence in the Triple Gem, and right
understanding (sammaadi.t.thi) has this confidence as root cause.

********

Nina.

Nina.












[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear members,

I have inactive in this groups for a few years on account of various
circumstances. Now I think I may make time to do contributions again.

I have uploaded 2 research papers concerning Pali studies, especially Vinaya
(monastic law) in the Pali tradition. These two papers are critiques of some
points in Dr. Juo-Hsüeh's work titled "Controversies over Buddhist Nuns"
published in 2000 by the PTS.

Actually I sent these to the JPTS more than one year ago, and I have gone
through detailed correspondence with Prof. Gethin and Dr. Pruitt for
copy-editing the first paper subtitled "Did Buddhaghosa Misinterpret
Anupasampanno in the Duṭṭhull�rocana Precept?". But it cannot be in the
forthcoming issue of JPTS because there is no time left for further detailed
correspondence. So I have no choice but to wait.

But I cannot really wait any more. Perhaps this is because, beside being a
Palicist, I am also a computer geek (By geekiness I mean being obsessed with
computers without being a real expert). I believe in the Linux philosophy of
"release early, release often" (that is, your work should be published as
soon as possible; any mistakes therein can be corrected in subsequent
updates), and in the maxim of "Given enough eye-balls, all bugs become
shallow" (that is, the greater the number of peers reviewing your work, the
more mistakes they will discover in it and the easier for you to improve
your work). I would like to see peers' comments as soon as possible. So I
have uploaded the original 2 articles that I sent to the JPTS.

But it does not mean that I have withdrawn my submission of the papers to
the JPTS (Of course, it would be up to their editors what to do with my
papers. For me, print and web are different mediums). So I reserve all the
rights to these 2 papers, and I should also warn you that the final print
versions, if published in the JPTS or anywhere else, may be different from
what I have uploaded here.

I haven't included the changes to the first paper made on account of my
email discussion with the JPTS editors---these changes are only concerned
with the style and presentation while the content is perfectly safe. As for
the second paper, we have not had time to touch it.

The summarised contents of the papers are as follows:

1. "Did Buddhaghosa Misinterpret Anupasampanno in the Duṭṭhull�rocana
Precept?" (anupasampanno.pdf) --- points out Dr. Juo-Hsüeh has misunderstood
Buddhaghosa when she criticizes Buddhaghosa over the interpretation of the
term "anupasampanno" in the Duṭṭhull�rocana precept of Bhikkhu P�timokkha.

2. "The Concept and Reality of Ehibhikkhunī Nunhood" (ehibhikkhu.pdf) ---
argues that Pali sources have no conclusive evidence for the ancient
existence of ehibhikkhunī nuns despite Dr. Juo-Hsüeh and some other
scholars' argument to the contrary.

Even though these papers are of the Vinaya field per se, these are
essentially arguments about interpreting Pali texts. So I hope that some
members can also be benefited by reading these papers. Comments are heartily
welcome.

with metta

Ven. Pandita


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Den sön 2009-11-22 skrev Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>:

>Dear fiends,

Are there yakkhas in this list?

Well, even fiends should be included in our mettaabhaavanaa...

Gunnar :-)



http://stores.lulu.com/gunnargallmo
http://metrobloggen.se/esperanto
http://hubpages.com/profile/Gunnar+G%C3%A4llmo



       ___________________________________________________
Sök efter kärleken!
Hitta din tvillingsjäl på Yahoo! Dejting:
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;185753627;24584539;x?http://se.meetic.yahoo.net/in\
dex.php?mtcmk=148783

Dear Frank,
unfortunately I'm not able to understand your algorithm. Obviously I'm not a
computer geek :)
but have confidence it will be useful to more computer literate ones...

Metta
Branko



--- On Sun, 11/22/09, frank <fcckuan@...> wrote:

From: frank <fcckuan@...>
Subject: RE: [Pali] Re: how does samyutta map to DPR?
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 5:20 PM

Hi Branko,

   I think I understand now. This is the algorithm I came up with based on
the info you provided: I made a color HTML table describing the conversion
formula, which I uploaded to the pali files section.
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/EG4JS7B_xjrcMOk4A3H9IPMJ_2HtkhM9hFmhBprOTvv8v8v
mNon0YtDyhIepU_bSN4i-sMYBZ-vi0vf8WcWpZeT3878R/calculate_samyutta_num_in%20_D
PR.html  .



Please have a look to verify the formula is correct.

-Frank











  _____ 

From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Branislav Kovacevic
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 2:28 AM
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Pali] Re: how does samyutta map to DPR?



 

Dear Frank

Samyutta Nikaya is organized in three levels. The first is comprised of five
vaggas:

    1 Sagâtha-vagga (samyuttas 1-11)
    2 Nidâna-vagga (12-21)
    3 Khandha-vagga (22-34)
    4 Salâyatana-vagga (35-44)
    5 Mahâ-vagga (45-56I)

which are comprised of samyuttas and their numbers are indicated in brackets
above. These samyuttas are further divided into vaggas (again, which usualy
have 10 suttas). Therefore in DPR you have "Book" (vaggas) dropdown menu
(1-5) and another three below for: samyuttas, vaggas, suttas

Following your example of Rahogata Sutta, SN 36.11, you shoud choose Book 4
(Salâyatana-vagga, 35-44) and further in the three dropdown menus second
item, Vedana Samyutta (36), which is divided into 3 vaggas. Since you are
looking for 11th sutta, it will be probably in the second vagga. Therefore
choose Rahogatta vagga and in the last menu the first sutta is the one you
are looking for.

I hope this is clear enough for you to search for other suttas too.

Metta
Branko

--- On Sun, 11/22/09, frank <fcckuan@gmail. <mailto:fcckuan%40gmail.com>
com> wrote:

From: frank <fcckuan@gmail. <mailto:fcckuan%40gmail.com> com>
Subject: how does samyutta map to DPR? RE: Duroiselle (Re: Q. [Pali]
Dhammacakkappavattanasutta)
To: Pali@yahoogroups. <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> com
Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 5:04 AM



First,

Thanks for the great work on DPR! It's really an awesome tool that makes

things much easier than lugging around and flipping through lots of physical

books. I'm hoping someone can explain how the different numbering systems

work on the samyutta basket. I see DPR has 5 "books", each book as severl

subdivisinos. What I'm trying to figure out is how to map the numbering

scheme on Thanissaro's access to insight samyutta English translations to do

a side by side comparison with DPR. The current example of what I'm trying

to research:

http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ sn/sn36/sn36. 011.than. html

which has this sutta heading:

SN 36.11

PTS: S iv 216

CDB ii 1270

Rahogata Sutta: Alone

In DPR, there I just looked through books 1 through 5 until I finally found

rahogata sutta in book 4, under rahogata vaggo. Is that the correct sutta? I

haven't started doing a word by word scan through DPR, but just looking at

the rough word counts between the English sutta at ATI and the DPR version,

the DPR version looks a lot shorter.

In thanissaro's translation, paragraph 3:

"And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation of fabrications. When one

has attained the first jhana, speech has ceased. When one has attained the

second jhana, directed thought & evaluation have ceased. When one has

attained the third jhana, rapture has ceased. When one has attained the

fourth jhana, in-and-out breathing has ceased. When one has attained the

dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has ceased.

I wanted to look up the DPR pali so I can try to track down what pali

Thanissaro based his translation for "speech has ceased" in first jhana.

But in general I sure would like to make some sense out of how Samyuttas are

organized, and which mapping scheme corresponds with the one DPR is using.

Thanks in advance.

-Frank

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

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Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
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[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
only.Yahoo! Groups Links








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Branko,

    I think I understand now. This is the algorithm I came up with based on
the info you provided: I made a color HTML table describing the conversion
formula, which I uploaded to the pali files section.
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/EG4JS7B_xjrcMOk4A3H9IPMJ_2HtkhM9hFmhBprOTvv8v8v
mNon0YtDyhIepU_bSN4i-sMYBZ-vi0vf8WcWpZeT3878R/calculate_samyutta_num_in%20_D
PR.html  .



Please have a look to verify the formula is correct.

-Frank











   _____

From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Branislav Kovacevic
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 2:28 AM
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Pali] Re: how does samyutta map to DPR?





Dear Frank

Samyutta Nikaya is organized in three levels. The first is comprised of five
vaggas:

     1 Sagâtha-vagga (samyuttas 1-11)
     2 Nidâna-vagga (12-21)
     3 Khandha-vagga (22-34)
     4 Salâyatana-vagga (35-44)
     5 Mahâ-vagga (45-56I)

which are comprised of samyuttas and their numbers are indicated in brackets
above. These samyuttas are further divided into vaggas (again, which usualy
have 10 suttas). Therefore in DPR you have "Book" (vaggas) dropdown menu
(1-5) and another three below for: samyuttas, vaggas, suttas

Following your example of Rahogata Sutta, SN 36.11, you shoud choose Book 4
(Salâyatana-vagga, 35-44) and further in the three dropdown menus second
item, Vedana Samyutta (36), which is divided into 3 vaggas. Since you are
looking for 11th sutta, it will be probably in the second vagga. Therefore
choose Rahogatta vagga and in the last menu the first sutta is the one you
are looking for.

I hope this is clear enough for you to search for other suttas too.

Metta
Branko

--- On Sun, 11/22/09, frank <fcckuan@gmail. <mailto:fcckuan%40gmail.com>
com> wrote:

From: frank <fcckuan@gmail. <mailto:fcckuan%40gmail.com> com>
Subject: how does samyutta map to DPR? RE: Duroiselle (Re: Q. [Pali]
Dhammacakkappavattanasutta)
To: Pali@yahoogroups. <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> com
Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 5:04 AM



First,

Thanks for the great work on DPR! It's really an awesome tool that makes

things much easier than lugging around and flipping through lots of physical

books. I'm hoping someone can explain how the different numbering systems

work on the samyutta basket. I see DPR has 5 "books", each book as severl

subdivisinos. What I'm trying to figure out is how to map the numbering

scheme on Thanissaro's access to insight samyutta English translations to do

a side by side comparison with DPR. The current example of what I'm trying

to research:

http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ sn/sn36/sn36. 011.than. html

which has this sutta heading:

SN 36.11

PTS: S iv 216

CDB ii 1270

Rahogata Sutta: Alone

In DPR, there I just looked through books 1 through 5 until I finally found

rahogata sutta in book 4, under rahogata vaggo. Is that the correct sutta? I

haven't started doing a word by word scan through DPR, but just looking at

the rough word counts between the English sutta at ATI and the DPR version,

the DPR version looks a lot shorter.

In thanissaro's translation, paragraph 3:

"And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation of fabrications. When one

has attained the first jhana, speech has ceased. When one has attained the

second jhana, directed thought & evaluation have ceased. When one has

attained the third jhana, rapture has ceased. When one has attained the

fourth jhana, in-and-out breathing has ceased. When one has attained the

dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has ceased.

I wanted to look up the DPR pali so I can try to track down what pali

Thanissaro based his translation for "speech has ceased" in first jhana.

But in general I sure would like to make some sense out of how Samyuttas are

organized, and which mapping scheme corresponds with the one DPR is using.

Thanks in advance.

-Frank

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the Pali
group.

   File        : /calculate_samyutta_num_in _DPR.html
   Uploaded by : fcckuan <fcckuan@...>
   Description : formula to calculate 2 field samyutta address (thanissaro
suttas) to 4 field DPR samyutta address

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/files/calculate_samyutta_num_in%20_DPR.html

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

Regards,

fcckuan <fcckuan@...>

Dear Ven. Kumara, Nina and friends,

"Abhikkanta.m, bho gotama!
brilliant / sir / gotama
"Brilliant, Venerable Gotama!

abhikkanta (adj) brilliant.

Abhikkanta.m, bho gotama!
brilliant / sir / gotama
Excellent, Venerable Gotama!

Seyyathaapi, bho gotama, nikkujjita.m vaa ukkujjeyya, pa.ticchanna.m vaa
vivareyya, muu.lhassa vaa magga.m aacikkheyya, andhakaare vaa telapajjota.m
dhaareyya -
just as / sir / gotoma / turned upside down / or / should turn up / covered / or
/ should uncover / to gone astray / or / path / should show / in darkness / or /
oil lamp / should bear
Gotama sir, just as (one) should reinstate (what) is overturned, or (one) should
disclose (what) is concealed, or (one) should show the path to (whom) had gone
astray, or (one) should bear a light in the darkness -

seyyathaapi (phrase) just as.
nikkujjati (v) turns upside down.
ukkujjati (v) turns up.
pa.ticchanna (pp) covered.
vivarati (v) uncovers.
muu.lha (pp) gone astray.
magga (m) path.
aacikkhati (v) shows.
andhakaara = andha+kaara (m) darkness.
telapajjota = tela+pajjota (m) oil lamp.
dhaareti (v) bears.

'cakkhumanto ruupaani dakkhantii'ti, evameva.m bhotaa gotamena anekapariyaayena
dhammo pakaasito.
having eyes / forms / see / just so / by sir / by gotama / in divers methods /
teaching / declared
'(those) with eyes see the forms' - just so the teaching (is) expounded in
divers methods by the venerable Gotama.

cakkhumant (adj) having eyes.
ruupa (n) form.
dakkhati (v) sees.
evameva.m (phrase) just so.
anekapariyaayena = aneka+pariyaaya (m) divers methods.
dhamma (n) teaching.
pakaaseti (v) makes known, declares.

Esaaha.m bhavanta.m gotama.m sara.na.m gacchaami dhamma~nca bhikkhusa`ngha~nca.
that-I / to sir / to gotoma / to refuge / go / teaching-and / community of
monks-and
That I go to venerable Gotama, the Teachings, and the community of monks for
refuge.

esaaha.m = esa aha.m
* esa (pron) that
* aha.m (pron) I.
sara.na (n) refuge.
gacchati (v) goes.
bhikkhusa`ngha (m) community of monks.

Upaasaka.m ma.m bhava.m gotamo dhaaretu ajjatagge paa.nupeta.m sara.na.m
gata"nti.
layman / me / sir / gotama / may...know by heart / henceforth / possessed of
life / to refuge / gone
May the venerable Gotama remember me, the layman (who) had taken refuge, from
today until life lasts.

upaasaka (m) layman.
ajjatagge (phrase) henceforth.
paa.nupeta = paa.na+upeta (adj) possessed of life.

--------------------------------------------------

17. Atha kho jaa.nusso.ni braahma.no yena bhagavaa tenupasa`nkami;
upasa`nkamitvaa bhagavataa saddhi.m sammodi. Sammodaniiya.m katha.m
saara.niiya.m viitisaaretvaa ekamanta.m nisiidi. Ekamanta.m nisinno kho
jaa.nusso.ni braahma.no bhagavanta.m etadavoca - "ko nu kho, bho gotama, hetu ko
paccayo yena midhekacce sattaa kaayassa bhedaa para.m mara.naa apaaya.m
duggati.m vinipaata.m niraya.m upapajjantii"ti? "Katattaa ca, braahma.na,
akatattaa ca. Evamidhekacce sattaa kaayassa bhedaa para.m mara.naa apaaya.m
duggati.m vinipaata.m niraya.m upapajjantii"ti. "Ko pana, bho gotama, hetu ko
paccayo yena midhekacce sattaa kaayassa bhedaa para.m mara.naa sugati.m sagga.m
loka.m upapajjantii"ti? "Katattaa ca, braahma.na, akatattaa ca. Evamidhekacce
sattaa kaayassa bhedaa para.m mara.naa sugati.m sagga.m loka.m upapajjantii"ti.
"Na kho aha.m imassa bhoto gotamassa sa.mkhittena bhaasitassa vitthaarena
attha.m avibhattassa vitthaarena attha.m aajaanaami. Saadhu me bhava.m gotamo
tathaa dhamma.m desetu yathaa aha.m imassa bhoto gotamassa sa.mkhittena
bhaasitassa vitthaarena attha.m avibhattassa vitthaarena attha.m aajaaneyya"nti.
"Tena hi, braahma.na, su.naahi, saadhuka.m manasi karohi; bhaasissaamii"ti.
"Eva.m bho"ti kho jaa.nusso.ni braahma.no bhagavato paccassosi. Bhagavaa
etadavoca -

"Idha, braahma.na, ekaccassa kaayaduccarita.m kata.m hoti, akata.m hoti
kaayasucarita.m; vaciiduccarita.m kata.m hoti, akata.m hoti vaciisucarita.m;
manoduccarita.m kata.m hoti, akata.m hoti manosucarita.m. Eva.m kho, braahma.na,
katattaa ca akatattaa ca evamidhekacce sattaa kaayassa bhedaa para.m mara.naa
apaaya.m duggati.m vinipaata.m niraya.m upapajjanti. Idha pana, braahma.na,
ekaccassa kaayasucarita.m kata.m hoti, akata.m hoti kaayaduccarita.m;
vaciisucarita.m kata.m hoti, akata.m hoti vaciiduccarita.m; manosucarita.m
kata.m hoti, akata.m hoti manoduccarita.m. Eva.m kho, braahma.na, katattaa ca
akatattaa ca evamidhekacce sattaa kaayassa bhedaa para.m mara.naa sugati.m
sagga.m loka.m upapajjantii"ti.

"Abhikkanta.m , bho gotama... pe... upaasaka.m ma.m bhava.m gotamo dhaaretu
ajjatagge paa.nupeta.m sara.na.m gata"nti.

--------------------------------------------------

Atha kho jaa.nusso.ni braahma.no yena bhagavaa tenupasa`nkami;
and then / Janussoni / brahmin / where / Blessed One / there-approached
Once, Janussoni the brahmin approached the place where the Blessed One was;

jaa.nusso.ni (name) Janussoni.

upasa`nkamitvaa bhagavataa saddhi.m sammodi.
having approached / with Blessed One / exchanged friendly greetings with
and upon arrival, exchanged friendly greetings with the Blessed One.

Sammodaniiya.m katha.m saara.niiya.m viitisaaretvaa ekamanta.m nisiidi.
having exchanged greetings of friendliness and courtesy / on one side / sat
Having greeted (the Buddha), (he) sat on one side.

Ekamanta.m nisinno kho jaa.nusso.ni braahma.no bhagavanta.m etadavoca -
on one side / seated / indeed / Janussoni / brahmin / to Blessed One / this-said
Seated on one side indeed, the brahmin Janussoni said this to the Blessed One -

"ko nu kho, bho gotama, hetu ko paccayo yena midhekacce sattaa kaayassa bhedaa
para.m mara.naa apaaya.m duggati.m vinipaata.m niraya.m upapajjantii"ti?
what now indeed / sir / Gotama / cause / what / reason / for which / in this
life-some / beings / of body / from breaking / after / from death / state of woe
/ realm of misery / place of suffering / hell / are reborn in
"Now, Venerable Gotama, what indeed (is) the cause, what (is) the reason, for
which some beings in this life are reborn in a state of woe, a realm of misery,
a place of suffering, a hell, after the dissolution of the body and after
death?"

"Katattaa ca, braahma.na, akatattaa ca.
doings / and / brahmin / non-doings / and
"Acts, O brahmin, and abstentions.

katatta (n) doing.


metta,
Yong Peng.

Dear Frank

Samyutta Nikaya is organized in three levels. The first is comprised of five
vaggas:

    1 Sag�tha-vagga (samyuttas 1-11)
    2 Nid�na-vagga (12-21)
    3 Khandha-vagga (22-34)
    4 Sal�yatana-vagga (35-44)
    5 Mah�-vagga (45-56I)

which are comprised of samyuttas and their numbers are indicated in brackets
above. These samyuttas are further divided into vaggas (again, which usualy have
10 suttas). Therefore in DPR you have "Book" (vaggas) dropdown menu (1-5) and
another three below for: samyuttas, vaggas, suttas

Following your example of Rahogata Sutta, SN 36.11, you shoud choose Book 4
(Sal�yatana-vagga, 35-44) and further in the three dropdown menus second item,
Vedana Samyutta (36), which is divided into 3 vaggas. Since you are looking for
11th sutta, it will be probably in the second vagga. Therefore choose Rahogatta
vagga and in the last menu the first sutta is the one you are looking for.

I hope this is clear enough for you to search for other suttas too.

Metta
Branko




--- On Sun, 11/22/09, frank <fcckuan@...> wrote:

From: frank <fcckuan@...>
Subject: how does samyutta map to DPR? RE: Duroiselle (Re: Q. [Pali]
Dhammacakkappavattanasutta)
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 5:04 AM







 









       First,



Thanks for the great work on DPR! It's really an awesome tool that makes

things much easier than lugging around and flipping through lots of physical

books. I'm hoping someone can explain how the different numbering systems

work on the samyutta basket. I see DPR has 5 "books", each book as severl

subdivisinos. What I'm trying to figure out is how to map the numbering

scheme on Thanissaro's access to insight samyutta English translations to do

a side by side comparison with DPR. The current example of what I'm trying

to research:



http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ sn/sn36/sn36. 011.than. html



which has this sutta heading:



SN 36.11



PTS: S iv 216



CDB ii 1270



Rahogata Sutta: Alone



In DPR, there I just looked through books 1 through 5 until I finally found

rahogata sutta in book 4, under rahogata vaggo. Is that the correct sutta? I

haven't started doing a word by word scan through DPR, but just looking at

the rough word counts between the English sutta at ATI and the DPR version,

the DPR version looks a lot shorter.



In thanissaro's translation, paragraph 3:



"And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation of fabrications. When one

has attained the first jhana, speech has ceased. When one has attained the

second jhana, directed thought & evaluation have ceased. When one has

attained the third jhana, rapture has ceased. When one has attained the

fourth jhana, in-and-out breathing has ceased. When one has attained the

dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has ceased.



I wanted to look up the DPR pali so I can try to track down what pali

Thanissaro based his translation for "speech has ceased" in first jhana.



But in general I sure would like to make some sense out of how Samyuttas are

organized, and which mapping scheme corresponds with the one DPR is using.



Thanks in advance.



-Frank



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear fiends,

Dhammacakkappavattanasutta, no 9.

Ida.m kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa
ariyasacca.m - ayameva ariyo a.t.tha"ngiko maggo, seyyathida.m -
sammaadi.t.thi, sammaasa"nkappo, sammaavaacaa, sammaakammanto, sammaa-
aajiivo, sammaavaayaamo, sammaasati, sammaasamaadhi.
------------

Ida.m kho pana/, bhikkhave/, dukkhanirodha/        gaaminii / pa.tipadaa
this indeed/, monks/,          /cessation of suffering/ leading to/
the way

ariyasacca.m - /ayameva   /ariyo /a.t.tha"ngiko/ maggo,
/the noble truth/ this indeed/ noble /eightfold/ path

seyyathida.m/ - sammaadi.t.thi/, sammaasa"nkappo/,
that is/       right view/,          /right thinking/

sammaavaacaa/, sammaakammanto/, sammaa-aajiivo/,
right speech,    /right action/,         /right livelihood/,

sammaavaayaamo/, sammaasati/, sammaasamaadhi/.
right effort/, right mindfulness/,  right concentration/

Now this, monks, is the noble truth of the way leading to the
cessation of suffering: it is this noble eightfold path, that is -
right view, right thinking, right speech, right action, right
livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration.
------------------------------
N: The development of the eightfold Path is awareness and
understanding of the characteristics of naama and ruupa appearing at
this moment in daily life. We read in the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta that
the Buddha taught Raahula Dhamma, explaining the five khandhas. When
Raahula asked him whether he should know only ruupakkhandha the
Buddha said that he should know all five khandhas, that is, all
mental phenomena and physical phenomena occurring in daily life.
Raahula should not only listen to the Dhamma, but he should consider
what he heard and develop understanding and this is the development
of the eightfold Path. He taught Raahula to see the body as elements
in order to become detached.
Raahula had to develop vipassanaa pa~n~naa, to realize that there is
not the whole body; that what we take for my body are only different
elements which fall away immediately. Rahula, and all of us, have to
develop understanding not only of materiality, ruupa, but also of
mental phenomena, naama, of all five khandhas. When we take them all
as a whole, there is the idea of a person, a self. Hearing is naama,
a citta that experiences sound, it is not the ruupa that is sound, it
is not the ruupa that is earsense. Understanding this, not only by
reflection, but by direct understanding of the characteristics of the
elements as they appear one at a time must lead to detachment.
Clinging to the idea of "I, mine" can decrease.

In the next part of the sutta we shall learn that there are three
rounds of understanding the truth.

*******
Nina.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Yong Peng,
Thank you. Now I see that it is to be found on the homepage, but I
had so much trouble to spot Duroiselle.
Nina.
Op 22-nov-2009, om 8:05 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:

> [PTS PED] abhinandin (adj) rejoicing at, finding pleasure in,
> enjoying.
>
> [Duroiselle, §208] The feminine is formed by adding ni, before
> which final ii is shortened; it is declined like nadii.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Nina and Ardavarz,

yes, as Ardavarz explained,

[PTS PED] abhinandin (adj) rejoicing at, finding pleasure in, enjoying.

[Duroiselle, §208] The feminine is formed by adding ni, before which final ii
is shortened; it is declined like nadii.

http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/synthesis/grammar.07.cdv


metta,
Yong Peng.


--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

I have been puzzling over the form abhinandinii, finding pleasure, in the
Dhammacakkappavattanasutta.

Dear Kumara Bhikkhu and Nina,

thank you for your suggestions and notes. I like to point out that when I insert
"YP:" before the text to indicate my personal notes or English translation.
Otherwise, it is all from the author, Ven. Buddhadatta.

Bhante, I can't explain any correlation between "Nibiru" and "dutiyo suriyo"
given in the text.


metta,
Yong Peng.

First,

   Thanks for the great work on DPR! It's really an awesome tool that makes
things much easier than lugging around and flipping through lots of physical
books. I'm hoping someone can explain how the different numbering systems
work on the samyutta basket. I see DPR has 5 "books", each book as severl
subdivisinos. What I'm trying to figure out is how to map the numbering
scheme on Thanissaro's access to insight samyutta English translations to do
a side by side comparison with DPR. The current example of what I'm trying
to research:



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.011.than.html

which has this sutta heading:

SN 36.11

PTS: S iv 216

CDB ii 1270

Rahogata Sutta: Alone





In DPR, there I just looked through books 1 through 5 until I finally found
rahogata sutta in book 4, under rahogata vaggo. Is that the correct sutta? I
haven't started doing a word by word scan through DPR, but just looking at
the rough word counts between the English sutta at ATI and the DPR version,
the DPR version looks a lot shorter.



In thanissaro's translation, paragraph 3:

"And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation of fabrications. When one
has attained the first jhana, speech has ceased. When one has attained the
second jhana, directed thought & evaluation have ceased. When one has
attained the third jhana, rapture has ceased. When one has attained the
fourth jhana, in-and-out breathing has ceased. When one has attained the
dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has ceased.



I wanted to look up the DPR pali so I can try to track down what pali
Thanissaro based his translation for "speech has ceased" in first jhana.

But in general I sure would like to make some sense out of how Samyuttas are
organized, and which mapping scheme corresponds with the one DPR is using.



Thanks in advance.



-Frank





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[19/120]

The New Pali Course Part III (1950)
Prof. A. P. Buddhadatta Maha Nayaka Thera

Chapter VII Definition of the Indeclinables

(b) "Ki.m su naraana.m ratana.m?" [S.i,36]

"What is the most precious jewel to mankind?"

77. kiiva, how much? how long?

"Kiiva cira.m vimaanasmi.m
  Idha vassas'Uposathe?" [V.V.p.21]

"How long will you, Uposathaa, live in this heavenly mansion?"

78. kudaacana.m, at any time
     na kudaacana.m, never

"Gamanena na pattabbo lokass'anto kudaacana.m." [S.i.62]

The end of the world can never be reached by walking.

79. kva, kuva.m, where?

(a) "Kva nacca.m? Kva giita.m? Kva vaadita.m?" [D.iii,183]

Where is dancing? Where is singing? Where is music?

(b) "Ki.m su asissaami? Kuva.m vaa asissa.m?
      Dukkha.m vata settha, kuv'ajja sessa.m?" [SN.v.970]

(He ponders over as follows):- "What shall I eat? and where? (Last night) I had
to sleep uncomfortably, and where shall I sleep today?

80. kvaci, anywhere
     na kvaci, nowhere

"Tato adinna.m parivajjayeyya
  Ki~nci kvaci saavako bujjhamaano." [SN.v.395]

Then the understanding disciple should avoid taking anything not given to him,
anywhere.

81. khalu, indeed; surely

"Sama.no khalu bho Gotamo Sakyaputto Sakyakulaa pabbajito." [D.i,87,etc.]

YP: "Indeed, sir, the recluse Gotama, the son of Sakya, (is) a monk from the
Sakya family."

82. khippa.m, soon; quickly

"So ima.m dhamma.m khippa.m aajaanissati." [Jaataka-Nidaana]

YP: "He will learn this doctrine quickly."

83. khu, surely

"Kaahinti khu ta.m kaamaa
  Chaataa sunakha.m va ca.n.daalaa." [Thig.v.509]

YP: "Surely, sensual pleasures will do to him
      like hungry outcastes to a dog."

YP: Note, from PTS PED kaahinti = karissanti.

See no. 4 of the Glossary Group 1.

84. kho, indeed; really (This is an enclictic particle of affirmation and
emphasis.)

"Aarocemi kho te, mahaaraaja... adhivattati kho ta.m mahaaraaja jaraamara.na.m."
[S.i,101] "I tell you, sire, old age and death are really rolling in upon you."

85. carahi, now; then; therefore

(a) "Atha ke carahi, devate, loke arahanto?" (Udaana, Daaruciiriya) "O deity,
who are the saints now in the world?"

(b) "Nanu tva.m, aavuso, Bhagavataa anaagaamii vyaakato; atha ki.m carahi
idh'aagato?" [S.i,149] "Were you not, friend, declared by the Exalted One to be
a Non-Returner? Why then have you come here?"

86. cira.m, for a long time (Examples for this are not rare.)

In compounds:

* cira.t.thitika, lasting long
* ciranivaasii, dwelling for a long time
* cirapabbajita, having long since become a monk
* cirappavaasii, long absent

87. cirapa.tikaa, long since

"Cirapa.tikaa'ham, bhante, Bhagavanta.m dassanaaya upasa`nkamitukaamo."
[S.iii,120] "For a long time, lord, I have been longing to set eyes on the
Exalted One."

ref: http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/synthesis/pali3.00.cdv

(to be continued...)

Dear Pali readers,

There is a new version of Digital Pali reader available on
http://sourceforge.net/projects/digitalpali/
Version 5.09.

In comparison with my old version (version 3.x, from before march 2009) the
grammar and cheat cheet are new. Some bugs are fixed. There is a quiz, the index
of Pali Proper Names, and the "quote of the moment".
The conversion from Velthuis to Unicode and back works fine, just like the
dictionaries. Just click on a word in a sutta and the translations from the
dictionaries are shown in separate fields (short and long translation).
The search function (type a pali-word, and you can search through the book, the
nikaya or the whole canon) works quickly.

If you have DPR you might want to update it, especially if your version is older
as march 2009.
If you don't have it you really might want to install it.

I want to express my gratitude to Yuttadhammo for this fantastic program.

Kind regards,

Ria Glas

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Kumâra Bhikkhu <kumara.bhikkhu@...> wrote:
>
> If you have DPR, it's in there too. Click on G.
>


>

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 11:32 PM, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:

>
>
>
>

The Kaccaayanatthadiipanii (a fairly recent commentary) has something
very interesting to say about 'tulyaadhikara.na.m' but doesn't give a
meaning for 'attho' itself. But in my opinion, it seems to fit the
meaning of 'vatthu' (subject-matter?). Here's an extract from
pp.539-40 (Thai script edn.) of the text showing the usage of 'attho':

apica so puriso gacchatiityaadiisu so purisoti
sakattha-dabba-li"nga-sa"nkhyaa-kaarakavasena atthapa~ncaka.m
labbhati, gacchatiiti aakhyaatapadepi
sakattha-padhaanadabba-appadhaanadabba-sa"nkhyaa-kaarakavasena
atthapa~ncaka.m labbhati. tattha sabbesa.m gamanakriyaa sakattho naama,
purisassa gamanakriyaa padhaanadabba.m naama, purisadabba.m
appadhaanadabba.m naama, ekattha.m sa"nkhyaa naama, vaacakattaa
kaarako naama, tesu appadhaana-sa"nkhyaa-kaaraka-sa"nkhaatena
tikatthena purisoti pade dabba-sa"nkhyaa-kaarakasa"nkhaato tikattho
samaano hoti. tena tulya.m samaana.m adhikara.na.m attho yassaati
vacanatthena tulyaadhikara.nanti veditabba.m.
Dear Jim,
This seems to me to me to clarify the matter. I would like to mull over it
carefully. Right now I am busy caring for a seriously ill patient.
On  the face of it, it appears to give a meaning like 'import' for 'attha',
does it not? It speaks of 5  kinds of 'attha' in both 'puriso' (subject) and
'gacchati' (pa.thama-purisa predicate), of which  padhaanadabba, sankhyaa,
and kaaraka of of the predicate seem to be given as similar to dabba,
sankhyaa and kaaraka of the subject.  All this is tentative; it is a bit
hazy to me yet.
  Is the reading 'ekattha.m' right? Could it be 'ekatta.m' (oneness)?
Let us study this passage to understand  these atthas more precisely.  Best
wishes.

Mahinda

>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Maninda,

<< The Sinhala sanne works ( many of which were authored by very
scholarly monks) quote this definition of 'tulyaadhikara.na': "tulya.m
samaana.m  adhikara.na.m  attho  yassa,  ta.m tulyaadhikara.na.m" -
which implies that ' adhikara.na' was understood as 'attha': 'sense'
or,  more likely, 'import'. In that case, 'tulyaadhikara.na' means,
having same or similar import": comparable with "having same or
similar base/substratum" in terms of Abhyankar's definition. >>

The above quoted definition is very similar to the one in the
Padaruupasiddhi.tiikaa, p.183  (Burmese edn.): "kriyaapadena saha
tulya.m samaana.m adhikara.na.m attho etassaati tulyaadhikara.na.m". I
was aware of 'attho' being a synonym of 'adhikar.na.m'. I'm rather
doubltul that 'attho' here means 'sense' or 'import'. Abh 785 gives 9
meanings for 'attho'. So the question is: what is the meaning of
'attho' in the context of the .tiikaa gloss on 'adhikara.na.m'? Abh
868 gives 3 meanings for 'adhikara.na.m': vivaado, aadhaaro, and
kaara.na.m. Among these, only 'kaara.na.m' (cause, reason) is given as
a menaing for both 'adhikara.na.m' and 'attho'. This may be a possible
meaning in our case but I'm not so sure in view of the following..

The Kaccaayanatthadiipanii (a fairly recent commentary) has something
very interesting to say about 'tulyaadhikara.na.m' but doesn't give a
meaning for 'attho' itself. But in my opinion, it seems to fit the
meaning of 'vatthu' (subject-matter?). Here's an extract from
pp.539-40 (Thai script edn.) of the text showing the usage of 'attho':

apica so puriso gacchatiityaadiisu so purisoti
sakattha-dabba-li"nga-sa"nkhyaa-kaarakavasena atthapa~ncaka.m
labbhati, gacchatiiti aakhyaatapadepi
sakattha-padhaanadabba-appadhaanadabba-sa"nkhyaa-kaarakavasena
atthapa~ncaka.m labbhati. tattha sabbesa.m gamanakriyaa sakatthonaama,
purisassa gamanakriyaa padhaanadabba.m naama, purisadabba.m
appadhaanadabba.m naama, ekattha.m sa"nkhyaa naama, vaacakattaa
kaarako naama, tesu appadhaana-sa"nkhyaa-kaarakasa"nkhaatena
tikatthena purisoti pade dabba-sa"nkhyaa-kaarakasa"nkhaato tikattho
samaano hoti. tena tulya.m samaana.m adhikara.na.m attho yassaati
vacanatthena tulyaadhikara.nanti veditabba.m.

Best wishes,
Jim

On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 11:13 PM, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:

>
>
> Dear Mahinda,
>
> There is quite a bit more commentary on Kc 409 one could investigate
> and think about that might help us to better understand Sd 868 and
> "ekaabhidhaane" ...
>

The Sinhala 'sanne' text on Kaccaayana 411  explains 'ekaabhidhaane'
decisively. Its comment can be translated as follows:"When expressed as a
single statement with a single verb".
It also takes this as a "paribhaasaa sutta", a rule that teaches the proper
interpretation or application of another rule. So does the Ruupasiddhi.

Mahinda

>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 11:13 PM, Mahinda Palihawadana
<mahipal6@...>wrote:

>
>
>    (2) in the case of subject and predicate, agreement in voice and
>> number......
>>
> I am sorry, this should be corrected to "agreement in number".

Mahinda

>
>> The Saddaniiti project page:
>> http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/synthesis/saddaniti.00.cdv
>>
>>
>>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If you have DPR, it's in there too. Click on G.

kb

Магубад Б&#1091 wrote thus at
03:58 18/11/2009:
>Dear Nina,
>
>Duroiselle's Textbook can be downloaded from Eisel Mazard's website at
>http://pali.pratyeka.org/
>It is a very useful resource anyway.
>
>With metta,
>Ardavarz
>
>
>--- On Tue, 11/17/09, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
>
>From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
>Subject: Re: Q. [Pali] Dhammacakkappavattanasutta
>To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 4:35 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Â
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>      Dear Ardavarz,
>
>thank you very much for the explanatiom.
>
>I tried to find Duroiselle on the homepage, since you quoted it, but
>
>could not find it. Warder also gives some info.
>
>Op 17-nov-2009, om 1:48 heeft Ardavarz het volgende geschreven:
>
>
>
>> I think this is the feminine form of the adjective abhinandii (=
>
>> Sanskrit abhi-nandin) , formed by suffix - ni with a shortening of
>
>> the final - ii (Duroiselle, 208). It is rather taddhita than
>
>> kitakanaama - from taddhita suffix -in (.ni) (ibid., 518) from the
>
>> stem nandin (in Nom.Sg. nandii).
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
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>Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
>[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
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only.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 12:11 AM, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:

>
>
> JA: The following definition of "tulyaadhikara.na" is found in K.V.
> Abhyankar's A Dictionary of Sanskrit Grammar, 1986, p. 189: "having got the
> same substratum; denoting ultimately the same object; expressed in the
> same case; the same as samaanaadhikara.na in the grammar of Paa.nini. cf.
> Kaat. II 5.5."
>
> After reading  several word-by-word  paraphrases in Sinhala  (a class of
> exegetical works known as sanne) on the relevant suttas of Kaccaayana and
> Ruupasiddhi, I think that the definition of ‘adhikara.na’ in Monier
> Williams Skt Dictionary  gives the most useful hint as to the import of ‘
> tulyaadhikara.na’ (although it provides no etymologically adequate reason
> for this definition: this may be because the word had acquired so many
> shifts of meaning in the course of its development).
>
> MW  gives, inter alia, this sense for ‘adhikara.na’: “relationship of
> words in a sentence (which agree together either as adjective and
> substantive, or as subject and predicate, or as two substabtives in
> apposition).”
>
> It seems to me then that in Pali grammar ‘tulyaadhikara.na’/ ‘
> samaanaadhikara.na’  means “ grammatically compatible, concordant”. There
> are three conspicuous aspects of this compatibility or concordance. (1) In
> the case of an adjective and substantive, agreement in number, gender and
> case; (2) in the case of subject and predicate, agreement in voice and
> number; (3) in the case of  two substantives in apposition, agreement in
> case and number.
>
> The Sinhala sanne works ( many of which were authored by very scholarly
> monks) quote this definition of ‘tulyaadhikara.na’: “tulya.m samaana.m 
adhikara.na.m
>  attho  yassa,  ta.m  tulyaadhikara.na.m” – which implies that ‘
> adhikara.na’ was understood as ‘attha’: ‘sense’ or,  more likely,
> ‘import’. In that case, ‘tulyaadhikara.na’ means, having same or similar
> import”: comparable with "having same or similar base/substratum" in terms
> of Abhyankar's definition.
>


>   JA:  "bhaasati vaa karoti vaa" ((one) speaks or acts) is from Dhp 1&
> 2.4)
>
> This is given in the sutta 869 as an example  where the substantive is  not
> explicit but is ‘implied’ : appayujjamaana.  Bhaasati =  (one) speaks;
> karoti = (one) acts.
>
> Mahinda
>
>
> The Saddaniiti project page:
> http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/synthesis/saddaniti.00.cdv
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Ardavarz,
many thanks, I downloaded it. I found ii and ini as you explained.
Nina.
Op 17-nov-2009, om 20:58 heeft Ardavarz het volgende geschreven:

> Duroiselle's Textbook can be downloaded from Eisel Mazard's website at
> http://pali.pratyeka.org/



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]