Dear members,
I am writing this message from Pune, India just to let you share some of my
experiences.
After arriving here on 31st Jan., I met Prof. Deokar at his office on the next
day. This was the first time I saw a handicapped person working in a highly
responsible position, and I have been really impressed. With all the phone calls
coming in, with so many documents to sign on, and with many people (including
myself) demanding to see and speak to him, he has managed all these things
admirably, just like a normal person.
I gave a guest lecture at the Pali department on Feb. 3rd. I was the speaker for
this year in the Bhiksu Jagdish Kasyap Memorial Lecture series. My lecture is
titled "The earliest three suttas: Their relevance to Vinaya and Monastic Life",
and it is only an elaboration of the section 3.1 of my paper "Was the Buddha
obliged to observe the Vinaya rules?", which I have uploaded to this list as a
file named buddha_vinaya.pdf.
On the same day, I also transferred the books that my Korean students had
donated to the Pali department. Those include one set of the Encyclopedia of
Buddhism (Vol I-VII plus 2 fascicles of the Vol VIII) and other miscellaneous
works in Buddhist Studies.
The Pali department of the University of Pune is a young one, having been
founded in 2006. As usual with the new departments, the problem is space. The
Pali department does not have its own office yet; Prof. Deokar's office is also
serving as the Pali department office. They have also to share the lecture halls
with the department of Sanskrit and Prakrit languages. Even now, they don't have
a proper shrine for one big marble Buddha statue donated by one Burmese monk; so
the Buddha statue has to stay locked up in a store room. Prof. Deokar joked that
the Buddha statue would achieve liberation only when they can get proper space
for it!
And there is only one lecturer under Prof. Deokar, and he hasn't finished his
doctorate yet. So teachers from the department of Sanskrit and Prakrit languages
have to help them run the undergraduate and graduate courses.
with metta
Ven. Pandita
Cīna
So for instance in Milindapanha:
‘‘Yathā, mahārāja, sadhano nāviko paṭṭane suṭṭhu katasuṅko
mahāsamuddaṃ
pavisitvā vaṅgaṃ takkolaṃ cīnaṃ sovīraṃ suraṭṭhaṃ alasandaṃ
kolapaṭṭanaṃ
suvaṇṇabhūmiṃ gacchati aññampi yaṃ kiñci nāvāsañcaraṇaṃ,
On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 8:34 AM, Ong Yong Peng <palismith@...> wrote:
>
>
> Dear friends,
>
> I hope this is not a hard one for us.
>
> What is Pali for China, the country in Asia? Thank you.
>
> metta,
> Yong Peng.
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dear Thomas,
You can check the article about Sahampati in Buddhist Dictionary of Pali Proper
Names:
http://www.metta.lk/pali-utils/Pali-Proper-Names/sahampati.htm
I am not aware of the name "Sahampati" to be found in the Hindu texts - as far
as I know in Hinduism there is one Brahmaa for a period of 36000 kalpas. I think
that "Sahampati"could be interpreted as "mighty or enduring lord"(Saha-pati) or
perhaps "lord of the enduring" (Saha.m-pati) if we take the adjective as
substantive in neuter inferring tatta (Skt. tattva, n) - "that-ness" or "real
nature" in Hindu philosophy, but this doesn't harmonize with Buddhist worldview.
As is noted in the article above Buddhists derive "Sahampati" from the name of
the monk Sahaka lived in the time of Kassapa Buddha.
Also it could be associated with Sahaa which in the later Mahaayaana cosmology
is the name of our particular universe (thus Sahampati meaning something like
"lord of this world"), but it would be difficult to agree it grammatically, not
to speak that this is a later concept not found in the Pali cannon.
With metta,
Ardavarz
--- On Mon, 2/8/10, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...> wrote:
From: thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>
Subject: [Pali] Brahmaa Sahampati
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, February 8, 2010, 1:51 AM
Dear Pali friends,
I have some questions regarding Brahmaa Sahampati. Hope you can help?
Does the term, Sahampati, have any meaning? Is it just a individual name? Is
this term Sahampati also found in the early Hindu texts? Is this term entirely a
Buddhist word created by the early Buddhists?
Thank you very much.
Sincerely,
Thomas Law
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dear Thomas,
I did some research a few years back on Brahmā Sahampati, and concluded that
the name 'Sahampati' did not directly mean anything. Only in the Pali tradition
does this particular Brahmā ask the Buddha to teach. But the name does seem to
include elements from brahmanical (pre-Hindu) mythology. Here is an extract from
my article on the topic:
"In the Dharmaguptaka and Mahīśāsaka Vinayas, as well as in the Mahāvastu
(Mvu III 317) and the Lalitavistara, in passages very similar to the episode in
the Pāli canon, the Brahmā who requests the Buddha to teach is simply called
Brahmā or Mahā-Brahmā, and is not specifically named. In the Pāli tradition,
however, this Brahmā is given the name Sahampati. In a short discourse in the
Saṃyutta Nikāya, we discover that Brahmā Sahampati was a bhikkhu named
Sahaka under the previous Buddha Kassapa, reborn in this kalpa according to his
merit (SN V 233). This leads the commentary (p.11) on the Buddhavaṃsa to say
that his name should be Sahakapati (Haldar 1977: 97). This, however, would
appear to be an over-literal reading by the commentator; it seems more likely
that the name Sahaka is derived from the name Sahampati. The name Sahampati
itself is mysterious, which is perhaps why the commentator offered his
derivation.
"Rhys Davids and Oldenberg suggested that ‘Sahampati’ could be understood as
equivalent to the Sanskrit ‘Svayampati’ (Rhys Davids 1881: 86). This name
does not appear to be found in the epics and Purāṇas, but it combines two
names commonly used in them for Brahmā. ‘Svayambhū’, meaning
‘Self-existent’, is an epithet for a deity believed to be eternal and
supreme; ‘Svayambhuva Manu’ was born of Brahmā and Sarasvatī and
represents the Vedas (Khan 1981: 30, 38). ‘Pati’ means ‘Lord’;
‘Prajāpati’, ‘Lord of Creation’ is another epithet for Brahmā, and
becomes a name for sons of Brahmā (Khan 1981: 39). ‘Sahampati’, understood
as the Pāli version of ‘Svayampati’, thus combines recognisable elements
from well-known epithets for the Brahmā of Indian mythology. The early Buddhist
story-tellers clearly wished the Sahampati who requested the Buddha to teach to
be regarded as the same Brahmā worshipped by their non-Buddhist religious
contemporaries."
(From Dhivan Thomas Jones, 'Why Did Brahmā Ask the Buddha to Teach?', in
Buddhist Studies Review 26:1 (2009)).
All the best with your research.
Dhivan
www.dhivan.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Wow! Fantastic work Lennart. Just installed and tested a few paragraphs,
looking good so far. I'll do some heavy testing on it...It would have
taken me several months to figure out how to code what you did in a few
days. Thanks!
-Frank
On 2/7/2010 8:50 PM, Lennart Lopin wrote:
> Hi Frank,
>
> Please find below a proof of concept-type program based on your idea of
> using a dictionary search for (semi)automated translation.
> This is a very crude example. I added a few screenshots so that you can see
> what it does.
> If you like to try it with other dictionaries, I added a a few more to the
> mix. Unfortunately it does not break compounds and so the results are better
> for sutta texts than commentaries. One could do much more with a tool like
> this, but the Tipitaka is just a limited amount of text and hopefully, with
> advances in bilingual corpora and machine translation, I guess pretty soon
> we will get quick Google translations for the Tipitaka as well [=> does not
> mean we will understand it any better without applying it :-) ]
>
> Download the program here:
>
> [download<http://www.nibbanam.com/pali_language_tools.html#ptrans>] (at the
> bottom of the page)
>
> A screenshot can be found here
> [link<http://www.nibbanam.com/AutoTranslationPOC-2.jpg>
> ]
>
> Metta,
>
> Lennart
>
> PS: Thanks go to frank for the idea and Frank Snow for CST4's dictionary.
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 9:47 PM, frank<fcckuan@...> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> I just noticed today that DPR has the english to pali dictionary as
>> well. i had been using a website for that, now I know the easier way.
>> I just looked up kaama in DPR, it's a massive entry, much more info than
>> CST4's dictionary.
>>
>> -frank
>>
>>
>> On 2/7/2010 8:36 AM, frank wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Ria,
>>> DPR is a great tool. I like how it can access several pali
>>> dictionaries, and tries to break down compounds, often with success.
>>> The limitation is the lookup entry takes velthius. With CST4 I can
>>> mark, cut, paste unicodr pali script from the web and local digital
>>> copies of the canon and drop it right into the search window (of
>>> cst4). Otherwise, I would use DPR more.
>>>
>>>
>>> -fk
>>>
>>> On 2/6/2010 2:29 AM, grasje wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Frank,
>>>>
>>>> In the Digital pali Reader
>>>> http://sourceforge.net/projects/digitalpali/
>>>> <http://sourceforge.net/projects/digitalpali/> (new version
>>>> available!) this funcion is automated.
>>>>
>>>> Just click on a word in the text and in the grey line between the
>>>> reading window and the dictionary window long words are broken down
>>>> into possible dictionary entries.
>>>>
>>>> Thus on clicking bhiyyobhaavaaya you get on the left:
>>>> bhiyyo- bh?v?ya
>>>>
>>>> and on the right
>>>>
>>>> bhiyyo: exceedingly; more; in a higher degree; repeatedly. (ind.)
>>>> bh?va: condition; nature; becoming. (m.)
>>>>
>>>> And in the dictionary window below the full PED-translation of
>>>> Bh?va. You can easily paste bhiyyo into the search field to get the
>>>> full PED translation of bhiyyo as well.
>>>>
>>>> The DPR is really an amazing piece of work.
>>>>
>>>> Translating a sentence becomes a matter of clicking the words one
>>>> after another.It almost seems easy to translate a sutta!
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>
>>>> Ria Glas
>>>>
>>>> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com<Pali%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:
>>>>
>> Pali%40yahoogroups.com<Pali%2540yahoogroups.com>>, frank
>>
>>>> <fcckuan@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> for you other Pali beginners out there, I learned how to use an
>>>>> interesting feature in CST4 to sort of make it translate a sentence
>>>>>
>>>> at a
>>>>
>>>>> time.
>>>>>
>>>>> I just mark and copy a line of pali text, either from CST4 suttas or
>>>>> worldtipitaka.org (or any site showing unicode compliant pali),
>>>>>
>>>> paste it
>>>>
>>>>> into CST4's dictionary search window. Because it does partial
>>>>>
>>>> matching,
>>>>
>>>>> and it only tries to show the possible definitions one word at a time
>>>>> (starting from left), I just put the cursor to the far left of the
>>>>> sentence, hold down the delete key to delete one character (then word)
>>>>> at a time, and the partial matching of the dictionary will usually
>>>>>
>>>> do a
>>>>
>>>>> pretty good job of finding a usable definition as I pass through each
>>>>> word until I get to the one I want.
>>>>>
>>>>> Before, I was marking, copying, pasting one single word at a time, and
>>>>> then realized by grabbing a whole sentence, or 2 or 3 words at a time
>>>>> and dropping it into the dictionary, it gets much speedier results. I
>>>>> tried a paragraph to test the limits, but it does seem to be
>>>>>
>>>> limited to
>>>>
>>>>> a certain number of characters in the dictionary search line.
>>>>>
>>>>> This has become my dictionary of choice because of its ability to read
>>>>> cut and pasted unicode pali, instead of only taking velthius input.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
> [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
> [Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
> [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
> [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
only.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Dear Pali friends,
I have some questions regarding Brahmaa Sahampati. Hope you can help?
Does the term, Sahampati, have any meaning? Is it just a individual name? Is
this term Sahampati also found in the early Hindu texts? Is this term entirely a
Buddhist word created by the early Buddhists?
Thank you very much.
Sincerely,
Thomas Law
Hi Frank,
Please find below a proof of concept-type program based on your idea of
using a dictionary search for (semi)automated translation.
This is a very crude example. I added a few screenshots so that you can see
what it does.
If you like to try it with other dictionaries, I added a a few more to the
mix. Unfortunately it does not break compounds and so the results are better
for sutta texts than commentaries. One could do much more with a tool like
this, but the Tipitaka is just a limited amount of text and hopefully, with
advances in bilingual corpora and machine translation, I guess pretty soon
we will get quick Google translations for the Tipitaka as well [=> does not
mean we will understand it any better without applying it :-) ]
Download the program here:
[download <http://www.nibbanam.com/pali_language_tools.html#ptrans>] (at the
bottom of the page)
A screenshot can be found here
[link<http://www.nibbanam.com/AutoTranslationPOC-2.jpg>
]
Metta,
Lennart
PS: Thanks go to frank for the idea and Frank Snow for CST4's dictionary.
On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 9:47 PM, frank <fcckuan@...> wrote:
>
>
> I just noticed today that DPR has the english to pali dictionary as
> well. i had been using a website for that, now I know the easier way.
> I just looked up kaama in DPR, it's a massive entry, much more info than
> CST4's dictionary.
>
> -frank
>
>
> On 2/7/2010 8:36 AM, frank wrote:
> > Hi Ria,
> > DPR is a great tool. I like how it can access several pali
> > dictionaries, and tries to break down compounds, often with success.
> > The limitation is the lookup entry takes velthius. With CST4 I can
> > mark, cut, paste unicodr pali script from the web and local digital
> > copies of the canon and drop it right into the search window (of
> > cst4). Otherwise, I would use DPR more.
> >
> >
> > -fk
> >
> > On 2/6/2010 2:29 AM, grasje wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Frank,
> >>
> >> In the Digital pali Reader
> >> http://sourceforge.net/projects/digitalpali/
> >> <http://sourceforge.net/projects/digitalpali/> (new version
> >> available!) this funcion is automated.
> >>
> >> Just click on a word in the text and in the grey line between the
> >> reading window and the dictionary window long words are broken down
> >> into possible dictionary entries.
> >>
> >> Thus on clicking bhiyyobhaavaaya you get on the left:
> >> bhiyyo- bh?v?ya
> >>
> >> and on the right
> >>
> >> bhiyyo: exceedingly; more; in a higher degree; repeatedly. (ind.)
> >> bh?va: condition; nature; becoming. (m.)
> >>
> >> And in the dictionary window below the full PED-translation of
> >> Bh?va. You can easily paste bhiyyo into the search field to get the
> >> full PED translation of bhiyyo as well.
> >>
> >> The DPR is really an amazing piece of work.
> >>
> >> Translating a sentence becomes a matter of clicking the words one
> >> after another.It almost seems easy to translate a sutta!
> >>
> >> Kind regards,
> >>
> >> Ria Glas
> >>
> >> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:
> Pali%40yahoogroups.com <Pali%2540yahoogroups.com>>, frank
> >> <fcckuan@...> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > for you other Pali beginners out there, I learned how to use an
> >> > interesting feature in CST4 to sort of make it translate a sentence
> >> at a
> >> > time.
> >> >
> >> > I just mark and copy a line of pali text, either from CST4 suttas or
> >> > worldtipitaka.org (or any site showing unicode compliant pali),
> >> paste it
> >> > into CST4's dictionary search window. Because it does partial
> >> matching,
> >> > and it only tries to show the possible definitions one word at a time
> >> > (starting from left), I just put the cursor to the far left of the
> >> > sentence, hold down the delete key to delete one character (then word)
> >> > at a time, and the partial matching of the dictionary will usually
> >> do a
> >> > pretty good job of finding a usable definition as I pass through each
> >> > word until I get to the one I want.
> >> >
> >> > Before, I was marking, copying, pasting one single word at a time, and
> >> > then realized by grabbing a whole sentence, or 2 or 3 words at a time
> >> > and dropping it into the dictionary, it gets much speedier results. I
> >> > tried a paragraph to test the limits, but it does seem to be
> >> limited to
> >> > a certain number of characters in the dictionary search line.
> >> >
> >> > This has become my dictionary of choice because of its ability to read
> >> > cut and pasted unicode pali, instead of only taking velthius input.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I just noticed today that DPR has the english to pali dictionary as
well. i had been using a website for that, now I know the easier way.
I just looked up kaama in DPR, it's a massive entry, much more info than
CST4's dictionary.
-frank
On 2/7/2010 8:36 AM, frank wrote:
> Hi Ria,
> DPR is a great tool. I like how it can access several pali
> dictionaries, and tries to break down compounds, often with success.
> The limitation is the lookup entry takes velthius. With CST4 I can
> mark, cut, paste unicodr pali script from the web and local digital
> copies of the canon and drop it right into the search window (of
> cst4). Otherwise, I would use DPR more.
>
>
> -fk
>
> On 2/6/2010 2:29 AM, grasje wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Frank,
>>
>> In the Digital pali Reader
>> http://sourceforge.net/projects/digitalpali/
>> <http://sourceforge.net/projects/digitalpali/> (new version
>> available!) this funcion is automated.
>>
>> Just click on a word in the text and in the grey line between the
>> reading window and the dictionary window long words are broken down
>> into possible dictionary entries.
>>
>> Thus on clicking bhiyyobhaavaaya you get on the left:
>> bhiyyo- bh?v?ya
>>
>> and on the right
>>
>> bhiyyo: exceedingly; more; in a higher degree; repeatedly. (ind.)
>> bh?va: condition; nature; becoming. (m.)
>>
>> And in the dictionary window below the full PED-translation of
>> Bh?va. You can easily paste bhiyyo into the search field to get the
>> full PED translation of bhiyyo as well.
>>
>> The DPR is really an amazing piece of work.
>>
>> Translating a sentence becomes a matter of clicking the words one
>> after another.It almost seems easy to translate a sutta!
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Ria Glas
>>
>> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, frank
>> <fcckuan@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > for you other Pali beginners out there, I learned how to use an
>> > interesting feature in CST4 to sort of make it translate a sentence
>> at a
>> > time.
>> >
>> > I just mark and copy a line of pali text, either from CST4 suttas or
>> > worldtipitaka.org (or any site showing unicode compliant pali),
>> paste it
>> > into CST4's dictionary search window. Because it does partial
>> matching,
>> > and it only tries to show the possible definitions one word at a time
>> > (starting from left), I just put the cursor to the far left of the
>> > sentence, hold down the delete key to delete one character (then word)
>> > at a time, and the partial matching of the dictionary will usually
>> do a
>> > pretty good job of finding a usable definition as I pass through each
>> > word until I get to the one I want.
>> >
>> > Before, I was marking, copying, pasting one single word at a time, and
>> > then realized by grabbing a whole sentence, or 2 or 3 words at a time
>> > and dropping it into the dictionary, it gets much speedier results. I
>> > tried a paragraph to test the limits, but it does seem to be
>> limited to
>> > a certain number of characters in the dictionary search line.
>> >
>> > This has become my dictionary of choice because of its ability to read
>> > cut and pasted unicode pali, instead of only taking velthius input.
>> >
>>
>>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi Ria,
DPR is a great tool. I like how it can access several pali
dictionaries, and tries to break down compounds, often with success. The
limitation is the lookup entry takes velthius. With CST4 I can mark,
cut, paste unicodr pali script from the web and local digital copies of
the canon and drop it right into the search window (of cst4). Otherwise,
I would use DPR more.
-fk
On 2/6/2010 2:29 AM, grasje wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Frank,
>
> In the Digital pali Reader
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/digitalpali/
> <http://sourceforge.net/projects/digitalpali/> (new version
> available!) this funcion is automated.
>
> Just click on a word in the text and in the grey line between the
> reading window and the dictionary window long words are broken down
> into possible dictionary entries.
>
> Thus on clicking bhiyyobhaavaaya you get on the left:
> bhiyyo- bh?v?ya
>
> and on the right
>
> bhiyyo: exceedingly; more; in a higher degree; repeatedly. (ind.)
> bh?va: condition; nature; becoming. (m.)
>
> And in the dictionary window below the full PED-translation of Bh?va.
> You can easily paste bhiyyo into the search field to get the full PED
> translation of bhiyyo as well.
>
> The DPR is really an amazing piece of work.
>
> Translating a sentence becomes a matter of clicking the words one
> after another.It almost seems easy to translate a sutta!
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Ria Glas
>
> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, frank
> <fcckuan@...> wrote:
> >
> > for you other Pali beginners out there, I learned how to use an
> > interesting feature in CST4 to sort of make it translate a sentence
> at a
> > time.
> >
> > I just mark and copy a line of pali text, either from CST4 suttas or
> > worldtipitaka.org (or any site showing unicode compliant pali),
> paste it
> > into CST4's dictionary search window. Because it does partial matching,
> > and it only tries to show the possible definitions one word at a time
> > (starting from left), I just put the cursor to the far left of the
> > sentence, hold down the delete key to delete one character (then word)
> > at a time, and the partial matching of the dictionary will usually do a
> > pretty good job of finding a usable definition as I pass through each
> > word until I get to the one I want.
> >
> > Before, I was marking, copying, pasting one single word at a time, and
> > then realized by grabbing a whole sentence, or 2 or 3 words at a time
> > and dropping it into the dictionary, it gets much speedier results. I
> > tried a paragraph to test the limits, but it does seem to be limited to
> > a certain number of characters in the dictionary search line.
> >
> > This has become my dictionary of choice because of its ability to read
> > cut and pasted unicode pali, instead of only taking velthius input.
> >
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dear pali students,
Right now I am trying to learn Javascript (the programming-language for DPR). I
want to mak a tool/progam based on DPR for the translation exercises of the
available pali courses. During your study you would have the complete PED at
hand instead of just a wordlist. It would make it easy to get acquainted to the
whole depth of the meaning of a word right from the start of your study.
The collection/book part would be replaced by a pali-coursename/chapter
selection.
Instead of the reading window we would need 3 fields:
* a field that shows the sentence to be translated,
* an input field for the answer (like the dictionary-lookupfield, but longer)
and
* a field that shows the correct answer after pressing enter or clicking a
submit button. (usually two lines: one word-by-word translation and one complete
sentence.
After pressing accept the next sentence should show up.
The exercises and anwers are available on the Web. The trick will be to get the
questions and anwers together on the screen at the right time. You would have to
read the answer yourself to see if it matches, I am not (yet?) thinking of
checking that automatically.
It wil take me a year or so (programing takes always longer as you think) to
make it. If some tech guy or girl makes it before I can I would be very happy.
If not, we all have to be patient.
Kind regards,
Ria Glas
Hi Frank,
In the Digital pali Reader http://sourceforge.net/projects/digitalpali/ (new
version available!) this funcion is automated.
Just click on a word in the text and in the grey line between the reading window
and the dictionary window long words are broken down into possible dictionary
entries.
Thus on clicking bhiyyobhaavaaya you get on the left:
bhiyyo- bhāvāya
and on the right
bhiyyo: exceedingly; more; in a higher degree; repeatedly. (ind.)
bhāva: condition; nature; becoming. (m.)
And in the dictionary window below the full PED-translation of Bhāva. You can
easily paste bhiyyo into the search field to get the full PED translation of
bhiyyo as well.
The DPR is really an amazing piece of work.
Translating a sentence becomes a matter of clicking the words one after
another.It almost seems easy to translate a sutta!
Kind regards,
Ria Glas
--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, frank <fcckuan@...> wrote:
>
> for you other Pali beginners out there, I learned how to use an
> interesting feature in CST4 to sort of make it translate a sentence at a
> time.
>
> I just mark and copy a line of pali text, either from CST4 suttas or
> worldtipitaka.org (or any site showing unicode compliant pali), paste it
> into CST4's dictionary search window. Because it does partial matching,
> and it only tries to show the possible definitions one word at a time
> (starting from left), I just put the cursor to the far left of the
> sentence, hold down the delete key to delete one character (then word)
> at a time, and the partial matching of the dictionary will usually do a
> pretty good job of finding a usable definition as I pass through each
> word until I get to the one I want.
>
> Before, I was marking, copying, pasting one single word at a time, and
> then realized by grabbing a whole sentence, or 2 or 3 words at a time
> and dropping it into the dictionary, it gets much speedier results. I
> tried a paragraph to test the limits, but it does seem to be limited to
> a certain number of characters in the dictionary search line.
>
> This has become my dictionary of choice because of its ability to read
> cut and pasted unicode pali, instead of only taking velthius input.
>
Attention: Nina,
N: What you say is gramatically correct. But some years ago we
discussed this construction here on the list. Having done this, he
goes there. For the flow of English we can translate more freely: he
does this and then goes there, adding 'and'.
---------------------
DC: I am sure you are right, but we understand it differently.
He does this is in the present tense; goes there is also present tense.
Then 'he' is doing two actions at the same time.
(DC)
D. G. D. C. Wijeratna
--- On Wed, 2/3/10, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
Subject: Re: [Pali] The New Pali Course Part III [24/120]
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 3, 2010, 11:40 AM
Dear DC,
Op 1-feb-2010, om 16:51 heeft DC Wijeratna het volgende geschreven:
> Imaani phalaani aagantvaa mayha.m purato patanti; 'atthi nu kho upari
> luddako'ti punappuna ullokento luddaka.m disvaa... ima.m gaatham
> aaha."
> [J.i,173-4]
> YP: "These fruits come and fall in front of me; 'there is, yeah?, a
> little
> hunter.' looking out repeatedly, having seen the young hunter...
> this verse
> he said."
>
> aagantvaa is an absolutive. It means having come,
--------
N: What you say is gramatically correct. But some years ago we
discussed this construction here on the list. Having done this, he
goes there. For the flow of English we can translate more freely: he
does this and then goes there, adding 'and'.
Nina.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
for you other Pali beginners out there, I learned how to use an
interesting feature in CST4 to sort of make it translate a sentence at a
time.
I just mark and copy a line of pali text, either from CST4 suttas or
worldtipitaka.org (or any site showing unicode compliant pali), paste it
into CST4's dictionary search window. Because it does partial matching,
and it only tries to show the possible definitions one word at a time
(starting from left), I just put the cursor to the far left of the
sentence, hold down the delete key to delete one character (then word)
at a time, and the partial matching of the dictionary will usually do a
pretty good job of finding a usable definition as I pass through each
word until I get to the one I want.
Before, I was marking, copying, pasting one single word at a time, and
then realized by grabbing a whole sentence, or 2 or 3 words at a time
and dropping it into the dictionary, it gets much speedier results. I
tried a paragraph to test the limits, but it does seem to be limited to
a certain number of characters in the dictionary search line.
This has become my dictionary of choice because of its ability to read
cut and pasted unicode pali, instead of only taking velthius input.
Dear DC,
Op 1-feb-2010, om 16:51 heeft DC Wijeratna het volgende geschreven:
> Imaani phalaani aagantvaa mayha.m purato patanti; 'atthi nu kho upari
> luddako'ti punappuna ullokento luddaka.m disvaa... ima.m gaatham
> aaha."
> [J.i,173-4]
> YP: "These fruits come and fall in front of me; 'there is, yeah?, a
> little
> hunter.' looking out repeatedly, having seen the young hunter...
> this verse
> he said."
>
> aagantvaa is an absolutive. It means having come,
--------
N: What you say is gramatically correct. But some years ago we
discussed this construction here on the list. Having done this, he
goes there. For the flow of English we can translate more freely: he
does this and then goes there, adding 'and'.
Nina.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Imaani phalaani aagantvaa mayha.m purato patanti; 'atthi nu kho upari
luddako'ti punappuna ullokento luddaka.m disvaa... ima.m gaatham aaha."
[J.i,173-4]
YP: "These fruits come and fall in front of me; 'there is, yeah?, a little
hunter.' looking out repeatedly, having seen the young hunter... this verse
he said."
aagantvaa is an absolutive. It means having come,
mayha.m is dat. or gen. It means to me or mine.
purato: also means 'before'. Before could be either in time or space as in
English.
atthi = there is
kho: emphatic particle, it makes the 'there is' more like 'there should be.'
upari: above, upari is used here because the fruits fell from above. [more
in the sense of from front].
Witout purato and upari, the senteces do not add up.
Ullekento is to look at, into look for something. In idiomatic English look
out has a different meaning.
-------------------------------
134. "Esa bhikkhu, mahaaraaja, Pa.n.davassa puratthato
Nisinno vyagghusabho'va, siiho'va girigabbhare"
But my humble rendering is: "That monk, O great king, is sitting in front of
the mountain Pa.n.dava just like a noble tiger or a lion lying in a cave."
vyagghusabhova is a compund of vyaggha and usabha. The meaning of usabha is
the leading bull, head bull or king bull.
So here king of the vyagghas.
----------------------------
D.C.
--
Metta is being friendly to everybody
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Attention: Yong Peng
" 2. a line, norm, thus the canon of Buddhist writings; the text of the Pāli
Canon, i. e. the original text (opp. to the Commentary; thus "pāliyaŋ" is
opposed to "aṭṭhakathāyaŋ" at Vism 107, 450, etc).".
There are two Paali words here. They are there because it is a quote from the
PTSD.
------------------------------
"before we all get too carried away and start dumping the group with chunks of
Pali passages, please take note of the following:"
What 'dumping the group with chunks of Pali passages'. are you referring to?
----------------------------------------
D. G. D. C. Wijeratna
--- On Mon, 2/1/10, Ong Yong Peng <palismith@...> wrote:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi Stefan,
Thanks for your answer. Although we are not going to solve this perplexing issue
through emails, I would make the following observations:
>1. A 45th century future scholar of English might look at the jumble of
forms, vocabulary >and grammar in modern English and wrongly conclude it
was a composite language.
I think most linguists agree that English is in fact a composite language of Old
German and Old French with some Greek and other foreign words added in. But
you're right, that doesn't mean it's not an oral language. To a certain extent
all languages are composites as they borrow from languages around them. The
difference with Pali is that we haven't been able to localize where it was
spoken.
>2. If, by "scholarly language", you mean a written language, this looks
terribly unlikely. A >written scholarly language would be like classical
Sanskrit with variant forms reduced and >clear rules of sandhi. I think
Pali has the hallmarks of a real spoken language, with variant >forms
and chaotic sandhi.
If Pali was a spoken language the first question is where? It has the hallmarks
of a western language (not an eastern), and is closest to Asoka's rock edict at
Girnar (in the west), but not identical. We know it is quite different from
Maagadhii and Ardha-maagadhii which are the languages the Buddha probably would
have spoken (or Kosalan, if that is different).
Various scholars have suggested that Pali was a scholarly language (Geiger), an
artistic language (Bechert) or a lingua franca (H. Smith). My own feeling is
that it was probably a lingua franca - a dialect that combined various dialects
so that it was intelligible to people from many different dialects. A lingua
franca, is of course a spoken language.
>3. Scholars are cheerfully supposing Sanskritisms, but these forms
could have evolved >from Vedic and be normal spoken variant forms.
It is unlikely. In historical linguistics there is this concept called
"directionality" which tells you in which time direction changes take place.
This is usually towards simplification. It certainly was in the case of the
Prakrits evolving from Vedic. We have lots of evidence of this simplification.
For example the absolutive end in Skt. went from tvaa> -ttaa in the Prakrits, by
natural phonological rule of simplifying conjuncts. But in Pali it was changed
back to -tvaa so as not to confuse it with agentive nouns like kattaa ("maker,
doer") which have the same ending. So we know the re-Sanskritization came later
than the simplification. So the time sequence went Skt. k.rtvaa (absolutive of
k.r "to do") changed to Prakrit > kattaa and was later changed back to katvaa in
order to distinguish it from kattaa which means "doer" from the Skt. kart.r
(nom. sing. form = kartaa changing in Prakrit to kattaa). See Von Hinueber, "The
Oldest Literary Language of
Buddhism", page 188 in his Selected Papers on Pali Studies.
>4. the earliest evidence for "Eastern" and "Western" dialects comes
from the Ashokan >edicts, which were written 150 years or more after the
Buddha. English has changed >significantly in the past 150 years and I
presume the Prakrits of northern India would have >too. That a prakrit
is found recorded in Western part of India does not mean it originated
>there; the BBC uses baseball terms all the time, but no-one in England
plays the game. >Pali could have been pushed out of common parlance in
central India by the power and >prestige of Magadha 150 years later,
just as British English is giving way to American >English.
Yes, the Asokan edicts postdate Buddha by at least 100 years. We just don't have
any evidence that Pali was spoken in the east and then later supplanted by
Magaadhii and pushed to the west of India. A more plausible answer is that Pali
was a lingua franca which combined elements of both east and west dialects (and
northern too, for that matter) so that all could understand. That hypothesis
means it could indeed have been a dialect spoken by the Buddha (in a form that
everyone could understand). However, we have no proof of that. In my previous
emails, I have tried to show, that if you compare Pali and some other surviving
dialect forms of the Buddha's teachings, it suggests that there was a common
form underlying both, which I would suggest is the "lingua franca" that may have
been spoken by the Buddha. It is the only thing that would explain the different
forms that have survived. I agree that Buddha wanted his teachings memorized and
that in principle
his followers were quite capable of doing it (as that was their tradition,
since the Vedas were learned that way), but it doesn't appear that they were
transmitted exactly over the 300 years from this death to Pali being written
down. There are too many variants in the Pali and in parallel Sanskrit forms.
Just to take one example, in the Mahaparinibbana sutra, there is a word
vedha-missakena (DN II, 99; "combined with straps" the Buddha is talking about
his body falling apart as he is 80 years old) which has five variants for the
word vedha- (ve.tha, ve.lu, vegha, vekkha, vekha). The parallel Skt. form has
something phonologically related, but different: dvaidha-ni`srayena. The only
way to explain this variation is by positing an underlying form common to both.
I suppose one could say that the Pali is correct and the Buddhist Hybrid Skt.
form is wrong, but which of the six different Pali forms is right? Commentators
have been arguing about it since
Buddhaghosa.
>5. The bhaanika system allowed the huge corpus of Pali to be transmitted
orally. Why >should Pali be different from the Vedas?
Yes, but obviously errors in the transmission happened. See Norman's
Philological Approach to Buddhism, chapter on Buddhism and Oral Tradition,
"...despite the care which the bhaa.nakas may be assumed to have taken in
reciting the texts allotted to them, it is inevitable that mistakes would creep
into the tradition by reason of the type of error which is inherent in oral
recitation, particularly when monks from different parts of India, with
different pronunications of Paali, were assembled together" (page 73 in my
copy). Later in the book (page 179) he makes the point that the bhaa.naka system
is not coincident with the First Council (when there was no such thing as
Nikaayas), and probably quite a bit later - i. e. more time for errors to creep
in.
>6. An oral tradition recited communally by wandering monks from various
parts of India >will not change easily as the deviations will stick out
like a sore thumb. The huge number >of stock phrases, repetitions and
the commentarial tradition all suggest that the Pali >suttas were an
oral tradition.
I myself agree that, even if Pali is a scholarly, literate form of the language
as some maintain, it definitely preserves an oral tradition. As you say, there
are too many oral elements in the suttas for it to be anything else
>7. It is only difficult to reconstruct what happened if the simpler
thesis, that the Buddha >spoke Pali, is put aside. The problems of
different readings by different scribes is a >feature of a written
tradition at least 300 years after the Buddha, not of an oral
tradition, >which I think Pali was.
I fear that it is not primarily a scribal issue, but an oral transmission issue.
Because the monks were all from different parts of India, and there were
different dialects in different areas, they pronounced the words differently and
that's the source of the variants. Norman suggests (in his article "The dialects
in which the Buddha preached") that the Buddha may have spoken several different
dialects depending on who he was speaking to and that's the source of the
variation. In that case he says,
"since it seems probable that some of the Buddha's sermons were uttered in the
fifth century form of Maagadhii, and others in related dialects, it is, broadly
speaking, correct to call the Buddha's language Maagadhii. Since it seems likely
that Pali was spoken somewhere within the boundaries of Magadha, and was related
to Maagadhii, it is, again broadly speaking, correct to call the language of the
Theravaada canon Maagadhii, as long as we remember that we are in fact referring
to two different phases of Middle Indo-Aryan, more than two centuries apart."
(page 146 in my copy). [Buddhaghosa called the language of the canon Maagadhii,
in his commentary]
In other words, if Buddha spoke in several dialects, then it was just an
accident of history (Asoka sending his son to Sri Lanka) that resulted in Pali
being preserved over the other dialects (only parts of which have survived, from
central India, Gandhari, and parts of west China).
Hope that gives you some food for thought. Thanks for the interesting
discussion,
Mettaa, Bryan
________________________________
_._,___
__________________________________________________________________
Get the name you've always wanted @ymail.com or @rocketmail.com! Go to
http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/jacko/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dear Yong Peng,
Thank you very much.
Op 31-jan-2010, om 13:26 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:
The New Pali Course Part III (1950)
Prof. A. P. Buddhadatta Maha Nayaka Thera
Chapter VII Definition of the Indeclinables
133. purato, in front
"Imaani phalaani aagantvaa mayha.m purato patanti; 'atthi nu kho
upari luddako'ti punappuna ullokento luddaka.m disvaa... ima.m
gaatham aaha." [J.i,173-4]
YP: "These fruits come and fall in front of me; 'there is, yeah?, a
little hunter.' looking out repeatedly, having seen the young
hunter... this verse he said."
YP: atthi nu kho - see PTS PED under kho
-------
N: I think nu kho is a question: is there not...?
PTS text: I wonder if there is a hunter up there.
Luddako: hunter.
---------
134. puratthato, in front of or on the east of
"Esa bhikkhu, mahaaraaja, Pa.n.davassa puratthato
Nisinno vyagghusabho'va, siiho'va girigabbhare" [SN.v.416]
"Like puissant tiger, or a lion, sire,
Within a cavern on the eastward crags
Of rugged Pa.n.dava, your Almsman sits." [B.T. p.99]
This is Lord Chalmers' rendering of this verse. Mr. E. M. Hare in his
Woven Cadences translates the word vyagghusabho as tiger and a bull.
In this case Lord Chalmers' "puissant tiger" is acceptable. But my
humble rendering is: "That monk, O great king, is sitting in front of
the mountain Pa.n.dava just like a noble tiger or a lion lying in a
cave."
---------
N: Norman translates: <That bhikkhu, great king, is seated on the
Eastern side of Pa.n.dava, like a tiger or bull, like a lion in a
mountain cave.>
vyagghusabho'va: there is the word va here: or. Or a bull (usabho).
---------
Nina.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dear DC,
thanks for your info,
Nina.
Op 1-feb-2010, om 5:19 heeft DC Wijeratna het volgende geschreven:
> Attention:
> Stefan, Nina
>
> I started with the PTSD. The Foreword of the Dictionary has a lot of
> information about the origins of Pali.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi Yong Peng,
Actually, Patrick's test worked for me, I don't know how he entered it. It
probably also depends how capable your email program is, but as Patrick
mentioned there should be no problems today in expecting Unicode support in
most software applications.
Here is my test: I went to tipitaka.org, copied a piece of pali text into a
notepad (so that it will loose all formatting) and the copy and pasted it in
below:
-------------
Evaṃ vutte, aññataro rājāmacco rājānaṃ māgadhaṃ ajātasattuṃ
vedehiputtaṃ
etadavoca – ‘‘ayaṃ, deva, pūraṇo kassapo saṅghī ceva gaṇī ca
gaṇācariyo ca
ñāto yasassī titthakaro sādhusammato bahujanassa rattaññū cirapabbajito
addhagato vayoanuppatto. Taṃ devo pūraṇaṃ kassapaṃ payirupāsatu.
Appeva nāma
devassa pūraṇaṃ kassapaṃ payirupāsato cittaṃ pasīdeyyā’’ti.
Evaṃ vutte, rājā
māgadho ajātasattu vedehiputto tuṇhī ahosi.
--------------
I had sent this message earlier to myself and it showed up correctly, (I am
using Gmail).
Let me know if that worked for you too.
mettāya, (<- yet another test)
Lennart
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Patrick Hall <pathall@...>
Date: Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 7:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Pali] unicode, html. Is it time?
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Hi Frank,
As a Unicode nut and lurker on this list, I couldn't resist jumping
in... Unicode doesn't require HTML to render. Even a "plain" Unicode
text email should render correctly if all the software in the pipeline
supports Unicode (or more specifically, probably, UTF-8).
Let's see if the following paragraph shows up correctly:
2 Evaṃ me sutaṃ— ekaṃ samayaṃ bhagavā ukkaṭṭhāyaṃ viharati
subhagavane sālarājamūle. Tatra kho bhagavā bhikkhū āmantesi—
“bhikkhavo”ti. “Bhadante”ti te bhikkhū bhagavato paccassosuṃ.
Bhagavā
etadavoca— “sabbadhammamūlapariyāyaṃ vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi. Taṃ
suṇātha, sādhukaṃ manasi karotha, bhāsissāmī”ti. “Evaṃ,
bhante”ti kho
te bhikkhū bhagavato paccassosuṃ. Bhagavā etadavoca—
Metta,
Pat
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi DC,
Yes that might be it. Thanks very much for finding it,
Mettā, Bryan
________________________________
From: DC Wijeratna <dcwijeratna@...>
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, January 31, 2010 7:16:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Pali] Stefan Karpik article
Attention: Bryan
"He also says that in "one of the earliest Pali documents he [the Buddha] is
represented as calling himself a Kosalan." Does anyone know which document he is
referring to?"
"Again, venerable sir, the Blessed One is noble and I am a noble; the Blessed
One is is a Kosalan and I am a Kosalan; ...." MN 89 Dhammacetiya sutta, Bhikkhu
Bodhi's translation, p. 733.
Possibly, RhD refers to the above passage.
Mettaa
D. G. D. C. Wijeratna
--- On Sat, 1/30/10, Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@ yahoo.com> wrote:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
__________________________________________________________________
Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot
with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail
today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks very much Lennart, Mettā, Bryan
________________________________
From: Lennart L <lenni_lop@...>
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, January 31, 2010 3:41:42 PM
Subject: [Pali] Re: Stefan Karpik article
Also in the Sutta-Nipata v. 424 talking to king Bimbisara:
`Ujuṃ janapado rāja, himavantassa passato;
Dhanavī riyena sampanno, kosalesu [kosalassa (syā. ka.)] niketino.
``Ādicc& #257; [ādicco (ka.)] nāma gottena, sākiy&# 257;
[sākiyo (ka.)] nāma jātiy&# 257;;
Tamhā kulā pabbajitomhi, na kāme abhipatthaya& #7747;.
--- In Pali@yahoogroups. com, DC Wijeratna <dcwijeratna@ ...> wrote:
>
> Attention: Bryan
>
> "He also says that in "one of the earliest Pali documents he [the Buddha] is
represented as calling himself a Kosalan." Does anyone know which document he is
referring to?"
>
> "Again, venerable sir, the Blessed One is noble and I am a noble; the Blessed
One is is a Kosalan and I am a Kosalan; ...." MN 89 Dhammacetiya sutta, Bhikkhu
Bodhi's translation, p. 733.
>
> Possibly, RhD refers to the above passage.
>
> Mettaa
>
>
> D. G. D. C. Wijeratna
>
> --- On Sat, 1/30/10, Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@ ...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
__________________________________________________________________
Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!
http://www.flickr.com/gift/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dear friends,
pardon me. I meant "chunks of illegible Pali passages".
metta,
Yong Peng.
--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:
before we all get too carried away and start dumping the group with chunks of
Pali passages, please take note of the following:
If unsure whether a Pali passage is in Unicode, please convert to Velthuis
before posting to the group.
> 2. a line, norm, thus the canon of Buddhist writings; the text of the Pāli
Canon, i. e. the original text (opp. to the Commentary; thus "pāliyaŋ" is
opposed to "aṭṭhakathāyaŋ" at Vism 107, 450, etc).
Dear DC and friends,
before we all get too carried away and start dumping the group with chunks of
Pali passages, please take note of the following:
If unsure whether a Pali passage is in Unicode, please convert to Velthuis
before posting to the group.
Thank you.
metta,
Yong Peng.
--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, DC Wijeratna wrote:
2. a line, norm, thus the canon of Buddhist writings; the text of the Pāli
Canon, i. e. the original text (opp. to the Commentary; thus "pāliyaŋ" is
opposed to "aṭṭhakathāyaŋ" at Vism 107, 450, etc).
Attention:
Stefan, Nina
I started with the PTSD. The Foreword of the Dictionary has a lot of
information about the origins of Pali. I am sure you have access to the
dictionary (printed). The online version also has the Foreword (See
under Front Matter). I will give you my opinion on some of the
statements therein later.
Here I will give you some points from the PTSD entry
on Paali.
1. a line, row
This is really the original meaning of 'paali'. Not a
language. paali is a word coined by the commentators.
2. a line, norm, thus the canon
of Buddhist writings; the text of the Pāli Canon, i. e. the original
text (opp. to the Commentary; thus "pāliyaŋ" is opposed to
"aṭṭhakathāyaŋ"
at Vism 107, 450, etc).
This is the view of Buddhaghosa (reference) and Rhys Davids following
him. The Abhidhamma
pi.taka has never been considered as Buddha-word. Many books in the
Khuddhaka is of late origin. Last book of the Vinaya had been written
in Sri Lanka. So where we find the Buddha-word is the five-nikaayas,
subject to my comment above on the Khuddhaka.
For me Paali is the Buddha-word. I believe on the
basis of internal evidence that Buddha-word is what is attributed to
the Buddha in the
suttas. And those words in the Paali suttas are the actual words of the
Buddha (historical Buddha).
3. It is the literary language of the early Buddhists,
closely related to Māgadhī.
This statement is not acceptable. There is no such
thing as 'the literary language of the early Buddhists. Maagadhii means
the speech of the people of Maghadha.
4. The word is only found in Commentaries, not in the
Piṭaka.
D. G. D. C. Wijeratna
---
On Sat, 1/30/10, Stefan Karpik <stefankarpik@...>
wrote:
D. G. D. C. Wijeratna
P.S. This is a copy of an e-m I sent around the 30th. For some reason it seems
to have not been received as there is no response.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dear Lennart and all,
sorry for the interruption, but the Unicode is not showing up. If you can
discuss how you had inserted the text, because that would be helpful to Frank
and myself, who are trying to understand how well supported Unicode is with
Yahoo! Groups. Thank you.
metta,
Yong Peng.
--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Lennart L wrote:
`Ujuṃ janapado rāja, himavantassa passato;
Dhanavīriyena sampanno, kosalesu [kosalassa (syā. ka.)] niketino.
``Ādiccā [ādicco (ka.)] nāma gottena, sākiyā
[sākiyo (ka.)] nāma jātiyā;
Tamhā kulā pabbajitomhi, na kāme abhipatthayaṃ.
Also in the Sutta-Nipata v. 424 talking to king Bimbisara:
`Ujuṃ janapado rāja, himavantassa passato;
Dhanavīriyena sampanno, kosalesu [kosalassa (syā. ka.)] niketino.
``Ādiccā [ādicco (ka.)] nāma gottena, sākiyā
[sākiyo (ka.)] nāma jātiyā;
Tamhā kulā pabbajitomhi, na kāme abhipatthayaṃ.
--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, DC Wijeratna <dcwijeratna@...> wrote:
>
> Attention: Bryan
>
> "He also says that in "one of the earliest Pali documents he [the Buddha] is
represented as calling himself a Kosalan." Does anyone know which document he is
referring to?"
>
> "Again, venerable sir, the Blessed One is noble and I am a noble; the Blessed
One is is a Kosalan and I am a Kosalan; ...." MN 89 Dhammacetiya sutta, Bhikkhu
Bodhi's translation, p. 733.
>
> Possibly, RhD refers to the above passage.
>
> Mettaa
>
>
> D. G. D. C. Wijeratna
>
> --- On Sat, 1/30/10, Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Dear Bankei, Stefan.
The same would apply to the vedas though. Earliest inscriptions, if I remember
correctly, are not found before 100BC. I think this supports Stefan's argument.
>>"English speakers still read Chaucer and Shakespeare in the original "
The Buddha's discourses would have continued in memory, while in daily
discussion about them they would have used contemporary forms (As we do with
Shakespeare etc.).
However, I would then have expected the Mauryans at least to name or enlist the
suttas in their Pali names - which Ashoka did not do.
Aliyavasāni (P. Ariyavaṃsāni)
Anāgatabhayāni (P. same)
Munigāthā, (P.same)
Moneyasūte (P. Moneyyasutta - almost)
Upatisapasine (P. Upatissapaha)
Lāghuvāde musāvādaṃ adhigicya (P.
Rāhulovādo musāvādaṃ
adhigacca), identified as the Ambalaṭṭhika Rāhulovāda
-> seems his inscription was more concerned with people knowing what he referred
to than the exact name, but all in all pretty close to Pali forms).
--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "stefan_karpik" <stefankarpik@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you, Bankei, for this addition to my reading list. My first thoughts are
the rarity of Pali inscriptions would be consistent with my claim that Pali was
an oral tradition until about 100 BCE. I must read the book before saying more.
>
> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Bankei <bankei@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Stefan
> >
> > Interesting stuff.
> >
> > If Pali was the language of the Buddha we could conclude that the majority
> > of the early Buddhists would have used this language.
> >
> > It is therefore interesting to note that inscriptions in Pali are extremely
> > rare in both India and early Sri Lanka, according to Richard Salomon in
> > Indian Epigraphy: A Guide to the Study of Inscriptions in Sanskrit, Prakrit,
> > and the other Indo-Aryan Languages, Oxford University Press, 1998.
> >
> > Bankei
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
--- Den sn 2010-01-31 skrev DC Wijeratna <dcwijeratna@...>:
<The Buddha never spoke "Pali" (the language). Pali was a later creation.
However the Buddha's speech was referred to as 'paali' by the commentators.
This is textual evidence.>
I think the primary mening of "paa.li" is "text"; the full name of the language
is "paa.li-bhaasa", "text language", and e. g. "diigha-nikaaya-paa.li" does not
mean "DN in Pali" but "the text of the DN", as distinct from the commentary and
subcommentary.
Gunnar
http://hubpages.com/profile/Gunnar+G%C3%A4llmohttp://stores.lulu.com/gunnargallmohttp://metrobloggen.se/esperanto
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