Model railroading in Florida is hampered by several things, such as the lack of
basements. A two car garage may work in California, but any serious layout
attempt in Florida requires air-conditioned space. Also, unless you are modeling
sandy beaches and palm trees, the lack of local prototypes is a real problem. 
As interesting as the Florida East Coast may be as a railroad, modeling flat
terrain takes too much space. Even finding an interesting rock to mold is a
problem in Florida.

In attending local conventions, I get the impression that most serious modelers
in Florida have a layout of approximately 400 square feet in an air-conditioned
room added to their house. At current construction costs, that means a second
mortgage of $40k to $50k just to get started. You can convert a two car garage
for less, but without basement storage, few want to be without a garage. In
cases (such as mine) where the wife has a matching policy, the cost of the
layout space may double to include the cost of a new master bedroom or a new
family room.

These considerations have contributed to a local idiom embraced by many Florida
modelers. Needless to say, Florida is less than ideal as a model railroader's
Mecca. Recently, I've questioned the Florida idiom, and I'm incorporating some
of the ideas I found on the layout tours in the Northwest at the last Symposium.

Here are some random thoughts in no particular order of importance, derived from
what I find to be the Northwest idiom as contrasted to the Florida idiom. I am
currently doing extensive modifications to my partially completed layout to
adopt these changes.

1. Isle space. Despite the $150 cost per square foot, my new design has 190 sq
feet of isle space in a 420 square foot room. Devoting 45% of my space to isles
would be considered "nuts" by most Florida modelers. I contend the space is not
wasted, and is now an important layout feature to me.

2. Point-to-point operation. Although I don't recall seeing a point-to-point
layout in Florida, I find that eliminating the requirement for continuous
running opens new horizons in layout design. Unless you do a couple of plans
both ways, you cannot understand just how constraining a continuous run layout
is, nor how liberating a point-to-point scheme is.

3. Controls. Never again will I design a layout with a "central" control panel,
and blocked running. Perhaps the most important feature of the Northwest idiom
is DCC with fascia mounted turnout controls for operation by the train crew (as
contrasted with a central dispatcher). DCC is now my preferred approach. Sorry
PFM.

4. Fascia shelf. Thanks to Brian Ellerby for this one, but my layout now has a
"coke shelf" underneath the fascia. Although designed to hold coke cans, it is
also a perfect repository for uncoupling tools, waybills, and train orders. It
is also a good place for viewers and operators to put their hands, rather than
on the scenery. I also liked Dave Woodrell's "handrail", but I opted for the
shelf.

5. Walk-in versus duck under.  Perhaps this is a corollary to the
"point-to-point" versus "continuous" idiom, but I shall never again base a
layout design on "duck-under" access, nor shall I have any "hidden" access that
requires a crawl-way to reach.

6. Two foot max reach.  A direct fallout of abandoning continuous run schemes, a
maximum two-foot reach is "user friendly" to my tired old bones, and goes
hand-in-hand with wider isles. (David Barrow figured this out years ago, but I'm
a little slower to catch on.). Because my layout is partially complete, I can't
be 100% faithful to the two foot reach.

7. Staging.  Operations are greatly enhanced by having staging areas to "source"
and "sink" trains. Because I found this in direct conflict with my requirement
for no hidden storage, I have only minimum staging for my new design.

I think I'll stop running my mouth and conclude by stating that the most
important thing I learned in the Northwest was to be open minded to the ideas of
others. I learned a lot.

Art Cominio






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Art,

You raise a lot of good points.  Oh, to have a basement with a "wide"
ceiling.  Here in AZ we're also stuck with outbuildings or garages.
Meanwhile, back in Minnesota.....

Pete Nelson

----- Original Message -----
From: cominio
To: Brock, Mike
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 7:51 PM
Subject: More on the Florida Idiom


Mike,

I didn't mention photo backdrops, and as you know that's a trick I picked up
from you. The technique is difficult to master and pull off, but it's well worth
it. When photo backdrops are well done, as on your layout, they are hard to
beat. The "Van Pelt" alternative is OK too, but prohibitively expensive for most
modelers. Brian Ellerby has a Van Pelt backdrop that cost more than the GDP of
most third world nations.

Courtesy Joe Brooke, I have photo backdrops installed for Ridgway, Rico, and the
Windy Point/Howard Fork area near of Ophir.  I am still puzzling over the
highline backdrop, and the Placerville/Red Mountain backdrop.  I may need to
make a special trip just for photography, as you made to Wyoming.

By the way, I think its remarkably tolerant of the NWNG guys to allow a UP
standard gauger on the list. One of your Big Boys has more wheels than my entire
NG locomotive fleet. In your defense, I must point out that one of your best
friends is a logger.

Art


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You talkin to me Pete?

Jim

Not really, just musing about the possibility of someday having a basement
and a layout.

Here's a good link

http://www.histvideo.com/

> I didn't mention photo backdrops, and as you know that's a trick I picked up
from you. The technique is difficult to master and pull off, but it's well worth
it. When photo backdrops are well done, as on your layout, they are hard to
beat. The "Van Pelt" alternative is OK too, but prohibitively expensive for most
modelers. Brian Ellerby has a Van Pelt backdrop that cost more than the GDP of
most third world nations.
>
> Courtesy Joe Brooke, I have photo backdrops installed for Ridgway, Rico, and
the Windy Point/Howard Fork area near of Ophir.  I am still puzzling over the
highline backdrop, and the Placerville/Red Mountain backdrop.  I may need to
make a special trip just for photography, as you made to Wyoming.


--
Ian J. Barnett

"It's almost impossible to overestimate the unimportance of most
things."

e-mail ian.barnett@...

Phone 0041 22 767 6958 (a.m only)
Fax   0041 22 767 5300

Home phone 0033 450 405 105

Here's a good link

http://www.histvideo.com/

Thanks for the link, Ian. The technique Mike Brock taught me works well at a low
cost, but is not easy to pull off. Mike takes 35mm photos of his desired
backdrop (as a panorama), and then has them printed as poster size by Kodak. He
cuts out the sky because the clouds never match. His UP has some top notch
backdrops photographed by Mike in Wyoming.

The montage of photos is contact cemented to a blue sky background. The only
complication is joining the poster size photos at the edges. Sometimes a
judiciously placed tree must be used to hide the joints.

I added my own trick of painting the joints to smooth the transition, I know it
sounds nuts, but it works and can be done by anyone who has ever done a painted
backdrop. I've even managed to get two totally mismatched photos to join
realistically.

Mike has a clinic that he has given at regional and national conventions. It has
photos of examples from a number of layouts that Mike has visited.

I'm aware that Jan Rons and Dan Pyzel used photo backdrops years ago. I don't
know if Jan painted the joints, but that's where I got the idea. Certainly Jan
could paint the whole backdrop with professional results, but perhaps it would
take too long, or perhaps you don't want to if you paint for a living,

Art Cominio
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Ian BARNETT
   To: NWNG-Sn3Group@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 3:38 AM
   Subject: [NWNG-Sn3Group] Backdrops




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Adding to Art's thread on photo backdrops, here is a link that provides
poster prints from your own photo's at fantastic prices( much cheaper than
Kodak! ). They can also make seamless backdrops from your photos as well.
Have some and they are high quality products.
http://www.wemakeposters.com/

Darel Leedy
Gilpin District Tramway Company
http://www.narrowtracks.com/gilpin_tram

----- Original Message -----
From: "cominio" <cominio@...>
>The technique Mike Brock taught me works well at a low cost, but is not
easy to pull off. Mike takes 35mm photos of his >desired backdrop (as a
panorama), and then has them printed as poster size by Kodak. He cuts out
the sky because the >clouds never match. His UP has some top notch backdrops
photographed by Mike in Wyoming. The montage of photos is >contact cemented
to a blue sky background. The only complication is joining the poster size
photos at the edges. Sometimes >a judiciously placed tree must be used to
hide the joints.

Until I decided to cheat and put a turntable at Rico (shame on me), I thought I
was fixed in the turntable department.

Does anyone know if the 65' Sn3 table is still available from Diamond scale?

Also, I can't seem to locate the phone number I had for them.

Art Cominio


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Art

   Take a look at the 65'(S) model that Walter's put's out (90' HO), if
  Diamond Scale is not availble, I plan to use a couple as I get building
  my layout.

    Ken Clark

>
> Does anyone know if the 65' Sn3 table is still available from Diamond
> scale?
>

> Art

In a message dated 04/02/2001 7:10:49 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
cominio@... writes:

<< Does anyone know if the 65' Sn3 table is still available from Diamond
scale?
   >>
Hi Art;

    It' s now owned by Neil Wolfe.  Email is newolfe@....  Address
is 3742 Anderson Drive   Gelendale, AZ   85308

Paul Ellis
Colorado Springs
www.jimvision. com/CSNG

Anyone on the list have an S/Sn3 catalog sheet from V&T that I can
get a copy of??  Requests to V&T only yielded an O scale sheet.

Robert

Robert, I have two V&T MDC Shay conversion kits with the MDC Shays, one is HO
the other HOn3.  They are T-Boiler configuration.  If your interested contact
me offline.  I will give you a good deal on either set.

Paul Dougherty
Yorktown VA
























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jeremy,

Regarding your question about the above,  check out B.D. White's RGS
Technical website at:  http://users.viawest/~bdwhite/index.htm

It has some absolutely superb info on the RGS in general and a
terrifc section on his research into the RGS' bridge/trestle building
procedures.  Lots of good drawings/photos, etc. Give it a try.

Dave

You left the ".net" out of the link Dave. Here is the correct link.

http://users.viawest.net/~bdwhite/index.htm

     Pat

> Jeremy,
>
> Regarding your question about the above,  check out B.D. White's RGS
> Technical website at:  http://users.viawest/~bdwhite/index.htm
>
> It has some absolutely superb info on the RGS in general and a
> terrifc section on his research into the RGS' bridge/trestle building
> procedures.  Lots of good drawings/photos, etc. Give it a try.
>
> Dave

You're absolutely right,  Pat.  Thanks.

Dave

Hi all - Pat Turner brought to my attention a recent article
            that advised that NBCi was going to get out of the
            internet business. What that means for you and me
            is that we will likely lose the offsite NBCi site that
            I took out to free up some space in our own Files
            area, and to store some of our photos and layout
            tours in.

            I have applied to Yahoo! for another site, which would
            be used purely as a repository for the material that
            currently resides on the NBCi site. As it was my
            intention to send out an Invitation to ALL current
            members, I went through Yahoo! and advised them of
            both the reason and intention, in the hope that they
            might perhaps consider simply INCREASING our
            current file space allotment; that way, we could just
            repatriate the NBCi contents! So we'll see what
            happens...in the meantime, if you get an invitation
            to Subscribe to 'NWNG-Library', you'll know what's
            going on...

            I'll keep you informed of what happens; obviously, I
            will not be doing ANYTHING about transferring files
            for a few days, until it is *absolutely* clear which
            direction we should be going in...

            Best regards.

          - jim

Hi guys - Yahoo! has automatically subscribed you to the
                NWNG-Library, which I set up to provide some extra
                space for some of the Layout Tours, etc. in the
                anticipation that our facility at NBCi will likely
                disappear in the coming months. Thus, I  have now
                moved our contents from the NBCi site to this new
                Yahoo! site.

                There will be *NO* mail from that site - think of it as
                simply a cyber filing cabinet. It's function will be very
                much behind the scenes, with access gained from
                the NWNG-Sn3 Group site by auto-refresh links in
                most cases. What it DOES do, is to provide us all
                with double the existing file space of the one site!
                BTW, if any member can NOT access the files,
                please contact me directly off-list. 247 people were
                successfully subscribed, but there were 10 addresses
                that were 'Blocked by User' - perhaps your email
                program interpreted a block subscription as spam?
                If you are a member of the NWNG-Sn3 Group, but
                do not show as being a member of the NWNG-Library
                I will have to send you another invitation. So let me
                know...

                That's it, guys. Happy modeling!

              - jim

Hi guys - I know that many of you who attended the NNGC in
               Portland will remember seeing Bob Reid and Peter
               Jackson from Australia (usually in the pub)*...and
               I look forward to every issue of Bob's magazine.
               This is a Downunder version of the Gazette,
               published twice a year; if you haven't seen it yet,
               you can now have a look on the 'Net. The last
               issue just arrived a week ago, and it's got some
               great stuff in it!

             - jim

* Pete - it's "payback time"...
             <G>

           - j.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Reid" <ngdu_magazine@...>
Sent: April 12, 2001 10:55 AM
Subject: Narrow Gauge Downunder on the net!


> Hello friends,
> just a short note to let you know that Narrow Gauge Downunder finally has a
home on the internet.
Simply go to www.narrowgaugedownunder.com and check it out. My thanks to
trainweb.com in California
for their patience and perseverance in what turned out to be a 'difficult
birth!' Enjoy...
>
> Bob.

Jim/All
   Still waiting for my issue, have you built your lighthouse yet? from
the last issue <BG>
    Sent off 10 photos of my trip to CA to Bob, some could? show up in
the next issue.
    I agree! it is a great  magazine "Pity only twice a year".


     Regards
      Ken Clark

The discussion on roadbed has been very interesting, especially with
respect to the use of various products on splines or plywood "out on
the line."

I am looking for an alternative to Homasote in yard areas, especially
when using the cookie cutter method to raise and lower tracks for the
coal chute and ash pit, i.e. something that will bend with the
plywood without cracking.

The alternatives for large flat yard areas seem to be pink or blue
foam, perhaps the Micore product mentioned a couple of days ago, a
large sheet of luan plywood, or Homabed strips with buckets of
ballast fillling the gaps in between.

The site I'm modeling is the Chama yard ca 1940.  Even the RIP tracks
were at a slightly lower elevation than the main and yard trackage so
the ability to bend roadbed ala cookie cutter is important.

I have nothing against Homasote but I can't find a source in my
area.  Even tried the Homasote company web site to locate a dealer.
Unfortunately, the lumber yard they listed went out of business at
least three years ago--at least the firm that now has the phone
number has had it that long.

Would appreciate your feedback.

Bob Herrick

Hi Bob,
Every one has their own favorite material for road bed material. As I
mentioned several days ago, I use the foam board that I buy at my local art
supply dealer. It comes in several thicknesses and cuts like butter with a
razor blade. I use a block set at 45 degrees to hold the blade at that angle
while I cut. Architects use foam board for model building and framers use it
for mounting pictures. I cut it into long strips and on curves cut out
wedges so it will bend. I glue it down with two sided tape as well as the
flex track I use. The glued ballast holds it all in place permanently.
Good Luck with your project.
Jay Greer

> From: rherrick01@...
> Reply-To: NWNG-Sn3Group@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 13:18:39 -0000
> To: NWNG-Sn3Group@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [NWNG-Sn3Group] Roadbed
>
> The discussion on roadbed has been very interesting, especially with
> respect to the use of various products on splines or plywood "out on
> the line."
>
> I am looking for an alternative to Homasote in yard areas, especially
> when using the cookie cutter method to raise and lower tracks for the
> coal chute and ash pit, i.e. something that will bend with the
> plywood without cracking.
>
> The alternatives for large flat yard areas seem to be pink or blue
> foam, perhaps the Micore product mentioned a couple of days ago, a
> large sheet of luan plywood, or Homabed strips with buckets of
> ballast fillling the gaps in between.
>
> The site I'm modeling is the Chama yard ca 1940.  Even the RIP tracks
> were at a slightly lower elevation than the main and yard trackage so
> the ability to bend roadbed ala cookie cutter is important.
>
> I have nothing against Homasote but I can't find a source in my
> area.  Even tried the Homasote company web site to locate a dealer.
> Unfortunately, the lumber yard they listed went out of business at
> least three years ago--at least the firm that now has the phone
> number has had it that long.
>
> Would appreciate your feedback.
>
> Bob Herrick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> NWNG-Sn3 Group Home Page:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NWNG-Sn3Group
>
> NWNG-Sn3 Group Chat Room:
> Mondays 7:00pm PST/10:00pm EST, until...(?)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

>From: "Art Cominio" <cominio@...>
>Reply-To: Sn3@yahoogroups.com
>To: Sn3@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Sn3] 0-2-0
>Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:24:24 -0400
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey, Art;

Is there more to this?

At 11:34 AM 4/13/2001 -0400, you wrote:



> >From: "Art Cominio" <cominio@...>
> >Reply-To: Sn3@yahoogroups.com
> >To: Sn3@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [Sn3] 0-2-0
> >Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:24:24 -0400
> >
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>NWNG-Sn3 Group Home Page:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NWNG-Sn3Group
>
>NWNG-Sn3 Group Chat Room:
>Mondays 7:00pm PST/10:00pm EST, until...(?)
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

If anyone out there knows where I can find a copy of the RGS Story
Vol 2, Please let me know. I have had trouble locating a copy.
Please contact me off line with any infornation.

thanks,
Jake

Do anyone have the e mail address of the gentleman selling hose C-16
and C-19s on e bay?

Robert

I don't know how many of you ever visited the sadly overgrown site of
the East Broad Top Mt.Union yard, or how many of you are on the HOn3
list and saw this post, but it looks like something exciting may be
starting on the EBT.  Lets hope this work continues and expands.

Jim Vail


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Everyone:

For those of you who are interested in mining and tram activities,
take a look at Bill Banta's new tram ore buckets.

They are fantanstic.  This is product that has long been needed to
help complete our mining scenes.

Go the the following URL:

http://www.bantamodelworks.com/stock/bsc-4092.html

Best Regards,

Craig Raymond
Building The RGS North Dvision In Sn3 In Southeast Texas

Good evening!
Anyone see any Railmaster Exports G8/12 or the 70Tonner kicking
around?
Thanks
Andrew

Andrew we have plenty of them "kicking around"
Regards John