Finally finished my book on the subject: Learning How to Fly. I am sure most
of you know the arguement between the republic and democracy, where those who
favor a Republic say democracy is not practical or realistic, but yet ignore the
problems within a republic from of government. 16 years of research went into
the work. Thanks for everyone hearing me out. You can get a copy amazon by
clicking on the link below:

http://www.amazon.com/Learning-How-Fly-Michael-Stansfield/dp/1606965719/ref=sr_1\
_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242763803&sr=1-1

http://www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60696-571-9

--- In NPSForum@yahoogroups.com, lpc1998 <lpc1998@...> wrote:
>
> [Michael Stansfield]:
> "Voting for proposals is done on a county rather than a city basis where a
majority vote will be the basis for passage. ...."
> [Eric Lim]:
> "But counties are usually larger in population than cities as they are made of
5 or more cities and villages. So where the city has more than 25 million
voters, the relevant county would have voters of the 25 millions plus the other
millions in the other cities and villages. So the 250 signatures required would
be minuscule when they are compared to the total number of voters involved. I do
not understand the point you are trying to make here."
> [Michael Stansfield]:
> "Where did you get the 250 signatures required? The amount of signatures
required is determined by the county counsel and public vote."
> I got the figure 250 from what you say here and else where:
> "Clause 7 comment and response
>
> Note this is not 25% of the population, but 25% of the signatures required to
put a proposal on the ballot. The number of signatures needed to put a proposal
on the ballot maybe significantly less than 5%. This is all varied by the size
of the county. For example if two proposals are submitted with only 250
signatures in a city of 25 million they should still be on the on the ballot to
keep democracy alive. The problem is that these numbers are relative."
>
>
> Is 'the majority' here meant more than 50% of the valid votes cast? :
> "Voting for proposals is done on a county rather than a city basis where a
majority vote will be the basis for passage. ...."
>
> ___________________________________________
> [Michael Stansfield]:
> ".... The City Mayors and Village mayors are electable but their power may be
over-written by the people at the peoples' will. ....."
> [Eric Lim]:
> " 'electable'? What do you mean by that? Do you mean that (the City and
Village Mayors) may or may not (be) elected?"
> [Michael Stansfield]:
> "Mayors are all elected. Unless a mayor dies than he or she is replaced by a
person of their selection, previous to their death, until a new vote can be
done. Also mayors can be removed because of criminal activity."
>
> City and Village Mayors are elected for a terms of how many years?
>
> ______________________________________________
>
>
> [Michael Stansfield]:
>
> "..... 250 signatures might be too few if there are 100 proposals on the
ballot, but too many if there are only 1 or 2 proposals on the ballot. I
estimate there should be between 5 to 15 local county proposals per election
cycle, per county. Of course your thoughts are always welcome on the subject."
>
>
> [Eric Lim]:
>
> "Do you mean that the 250 signatures are the aggregate for all the proposals
proposed in the county? If this is so, then every proposal would be put on the
ballot, if there are 250 or more proposals?"
>
> [Michael Stansfield]:
>
> "See Comment above"
>
> Your comment above is not understood. If the number of signatures required is
250 as determined by the county council or the 'public vote' (referendum?), is
the figure of 250 referred to the aggregate of the signatures required for all
the proposals?
>
> Best Regards
> lpc1998
> New Political System for the Information Age
>
>
>
> Michael Stansfield <pure_democracy@...> wrote:Laws have to be passed on a
county basis as not everyone lives in a city, but everyone does live in a
county. Also as cities grow geographically they pass into new counties so that
the population has a stabilizing effect. For example Los Angeles is thought of
a 1 city but is actually over 100 cities and crosses into Orange County which is
all different cities itself.
>
> lpc1998 <lpc1998@...> wrote: [Michael Stansfield]:
> "Voting for proposals is done on a county rather than a city basis where a
majority vote will be the basis for passage. ...."
> But counties are usually larger in population than cities as they are made of
5 or more cities and villages. So where the city has more than 25 million
voters, the relevant county would have voters of the 25 millions plus the other
millions in the other cities and villages. So the 250 signatures required would
be minuscule when they are compared to the total number of voters involved. I do
not understand the point you are trying to make here.
>
> Where did you get the 250 signatures required? The amount of signatures
required is determined by the county counsel and public vote.
>
> Is 'the majority' here meant more than 50% of the valid votes cast?
>
> [Michael Stansfield]:
> ".... The City Mayors and Village mayors are electable but their power may be
over-written by the people at the peoples' will. ....."
> 'electable'? What do you mean by that? Do you mean that may or may not
elected?
>
> Mayors are all elected. Unless a mayor dies than he or she is replaced by a
person of their selection, previous to their death, until a new vote can be
done. Also mayors can be removed because of criminal activity.
>
> [Michael Stansfield]:
>
> "..... 250 signatures might be too few if there are 100 proposals on the
ballot, but too many if there are only 1 or 2 proposals on the ballot. I
estimate there should be between 5 to 15 local county proposals per election
cycle, per county. Of course your thoughts are always welcome on the subject."
>
>
> Do you mean that the 250 signatures are the aggregate for all the proposals
proposed in the county? If this is so, then every proposal would be put on the
ballot, if there are 250 or more proposals?
>
> See Comment above
>
> Best Regards
> lpc1998
> New Political System for the Information Age
>
> Michael Stansfield <pure_democracy@...> wrote:
> Voting for proposals is done on a county rather than a city basis where a
majority vote will be the basis for passage. The City Mayors and Village mayors
are electable but their power may be over-written by the people at the peoples'
will. 250 signatures might be too few if there are 100 proposals on the ballot,
but too many if there are only 1 or 2 proposals on the ballot. I estimate there
should be between 5 to 15 local county proposals per election cycle, per county.
Of course your thoughts are always welcome on the subject.
>
> lpc1998 <lpc1998@...> wrote:
>
> Now let me understand your balloting system.
>
>
>
> 'with only 250 signatures in a city of 25 million'? In a city of 25 million
voters, how many votes must an issue secure before it is adopted? 12,500,001
votes?
>
>
>
> Now you say only 25% of the signatures are 'required to get a measure on the
ballot'. 25% of 250 signatures = 62.5 signatures, presumably rounded to 63
sigantures.
>
>
>
> So what is 'required to get a measure on the ballot' in such a case is 63
signatures out of a total of 25,000,000 siganatures? 0.0000252%?
>
>
>
> [Michael Stansfield]'s Constitution:
>
> "Until such a time that the percentage or number of signatures required to
place a proposal on the ballot as well as how soon those signatures must be
turned in is determined by county vote the county council will be responsible
for determining the dates, times and the appropriate number of signatures for
the next election cycle."
>
>
>
> The unelected county council (of city mayors and village representatives?) is
responsible 'for determining the dates, times and the appropriate number of
signatures for the next election cycle' until there is a county vote on
determining them?
>
>
>
> [Michael Stansfield]'s Constitution:
>
> "Elections will be held annually."
>
> Election for what?
>
>
>
> [Michael Stansfield]'s Constitution:
>
> "If that county passes the proposal it will then be sent to the Regional
Supreme Court. The Regional Supreme Court may do one of three things: "
>
> The result of the county citizens' initiative, referendum or election requires
the approval of the Regional Supreme Court ?
>
>
>
> Best Regards
> lpc1998
> New Political System for the Information Age
>
>
>
> Michael Stansfield <pure_democracy@...> wrote:
>
> Clause 7 comment and response
>
> Note this is not 25% of the population, but 25% of the signatures required to
put a proposal on the ballot. The number of signatures needed to put a proposal
on the ballot maybe significantly less than 5%. This is all varied by the size
of the county. For example if two proposals are submitted with only 250
signatures in a city of 25 million they should still be on the on the ballot to
keep democracy alive. The problem is that these numbers are relative.
>
> The Constitution submitted has decided to handle it in this way:
>
>
> Section A: Law Presentation and Creation
>
>
>
>
> Each and every citizen as a representative of their county is entitled to
write a proposal on the ballot. To accomplish this any individual or
individuals who wish to place a proposal or proposals on the ballot must receive
a percentage of signatures from other persons in that county. Signatures must
be retrieved on a voluntary basis through voluntary means. Until such a time
that the percentage or number of signatures required to place a proposal on the
ballot as well as how soon those signatures must be turned in is determined by
county vote the county council will be responsible for determining the dates,
times and the appropriate number of signatures for the next election cycle. The
county council may not alter this decision in the current election cycle, with
the exception of the first election cycle of the democracy. The percentage used
and the time frame by which these signatures may be turned in may not be
determined by either regional or national vote. In order that
> democracy is preserved if there are fewer than five proposals on the ballot
in any given election cycle, not including regional or national proposals, the
county will put in additional proposals in the order of most signatures
collected until five local proposals are on the ballot. This will include
proposals submitted during previous election cycles in that county that failed
to achieve the needed amount of signatures to place that proposal on the ballot.
In the event the number of signatures is equal the most current of submitted
proposals for past election cycles and the oldest submission during the current
election cycle will have the right to be placed on the ballot. Therefore the
first proposals submitted after the deadline will be considered the first in
line of the next election cycle. Signatures and attempted proposals do not
expire until after the proposal has been voted on. Signatures may only be
removed by the voluntarily consent of the signer. Proof of identity
> must be established before such an act is successful. The penalties for
signature and voter fraud may be established by National Mandate, however,
county vote for such penalties will supercede such laws. If a person achieves
these requirements, the proposal will be placed on the ballot of that county for
an election. The county will pay all costs to put a proposal on the ballot.
Elections will be held annually. If that county passes the proposal it will
then be sent to the Regional Supreme Court. The Regional Supreme Court may do
one of three things:
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
> On Clause 7 Amendment 1: Any citizen among the voting counties may issue an
alternative with just 25% of the signatures required to get a measure on the
ballot. Signatures may be gathered from any of the counties taking part in the
vote.As you have pointed in the discussion on the need for maximum land area or
population size, it would be a daunting, if not impossible, task to collect
personally and physically signatures of 25% of the qualified voters in the huge
counties where the population is in millions. And this is just to get the
signatures required to get the issue on the ballot which may be held once in
every 4 or 5 years.
> Now compare your proposed Amendment 1 to Clause 7 with the procedures for
citizens' initiative under Clause 21(1) under Election Commission in the NPS:
"All qualified voters shall, at any time, be entitled to propose any issue for a
citizens' initiative provided that the issue is shown to the satisfaction of the
Election Commission that it has the support of not less than 5% of the qualified
voters."So in the NPS, all the concerned citizen needs to do is to demonstrate
that the issue he is proposing has "the support of not less than 5% of the
qualified voters". And he can do this in one or more of the following ways:
> As in your proposal, he could go round personally to collect the 5%
signatures required (as compare to your 25%)
> He could set up a website and encourage people to endorse his proposal
> He could make use of commercial websites and their promotion facilities set
up for voter endorsement purposes
> He could make use of non-profit organisation websites and their promotion
facilities set up for voter endorsement purposes, if he could persuade one to
support his cause.
> Once he has obtained the required 5% support, the Election Commission would
take over the issue and include it in its citizens initiative announcement
together with the issues of other citizens who has garnered the necessary
support for voter endorsement.
> There will be voting on those issues which have endorsements of not less than
25% of the qualified voters and issues which have obtained more than 50% of the
valid votes cast shall be declared adopted. Click the link here to see the full
details of the citizens' initiative procedures.
> One important point to note here is that the 5% support would trigger off the
balloting process itself. There is no need to wait for the general election for
the issue to be included in the ballot.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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