GENE POOLE

Rational question: Are you able to actually see
space?

Space is 'decided' by extrapolation, based upon
certain assumptions which are derived from habitual
use of the sense-data of vision, hearing, touch.

In other words, if you really seriously ask
yourself if you can see space, what is the answer?

Is this an issue to dismiss, upon deriving a
certain depth, or are you able to discipline
yourself to delve ever deeper?

Have you decided that this is merely, after a
certain point, a play of semantics? If that is your
decision, then what... what position are you
taking?

Most importantly, of this issue of contemplating
the nature of space, is the understanding that the
position you take is your own responsibility.

{Only when space knows itself, will you find the
nature of position.}

And this is the issue, and if you have read
carefully this far, and have contemplated the
questions I ask, you may understand the issue of
responsibility.

If you take a position relative to space, you
are... and pardon me for being blunt... indulging
yourself in delusion. And that delusion is simply a
confession of ignorance. Your fear, and your
dissatisfaction, are consequences of taking a
position; you have made the classical error of
concluding on the basis of incomplete evidence, and
you may now be living the consequences of that
error.

Angst... is derived, as a remainder, via the
mathematical process of subtraction, but the
calculation is deeply flawed, for you have not had
access to the true figures.

It should be easy to allow the echo of error to
fade, to once again start with a blank slate. But
if it is not easy, you are contaminated with a
hidden algorithm, which includes the unrest-state
as a necessity.

And this is seen easily by anyone who does not
need, who does not incorporate the unrest-state, in
their way of Being. Yet, it is invisible to those
who have as their handmaiden, the unrest-state, a
ready servant, the verging excitement of the risk
of toppling, and thus the eternal heroic quest for
balance and 'reason'.

Reason is helpless against the unrest-state,
because the unrest-state is akin and allied with
biological life and deeper, to the instability of
all compounds, of anything made of more than one
thing. So it can be said that the unrest state is a
'demon' in the original sense of the word, that
being a 'dumb force' or 'mere automaticity of
nature'.

In this sense, the unrest-state is the force which
must be controlled, and the failure to control it
is the original sin, and more revealingly, it is
also the sin of Lucifer.

The unrest-state, if taken as a component of
reason, will always lead to error. The unrest
state, as an ally of matter, must be taken into
account in another way, as other than a component
of reason. The unrest-state must be assumed to be
'normal background radiation', and thus
nonvolitional, or in other words, involuntary.

So my advice is, to assume a position relative to
the unrest-state, rather than relative to space.
This position takes movement into account, not as a
force of reason, but as the primal push which can
be ridden upon or exploited, much like the radiance
of the sun, which as a violent photonic shower is
translated into biological life.

Being next to movement, allows rest. Being next to
space, is denial of your nature.

JUDI RHODES

> Being next to movement, allows rest. Being next to space, is denial
> of your nature.
>
***** Not only *next to* but an actual "coinciding" such that we see
our identicalness to it. There is no movement into or out of it.
Here is here. Nothing too difficult about it. :-)

_________________________________________________________________

JUDI RHODES

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-- Beware the Obvious-Suspect the Reality
~~~AllisonWonderland~~~
http://www.livingston.net/allison/ISIB.htm
http://members.nbci.com/Crystalume/

______________________________________________________________________________

JUDI RHODES

Realization is about death, but it is NOT brought
about through ideas of escape. It's all a matter of
understanding, and it's the very ideas of wanting
to escape, or go *somewhere*, or get *something*,
wherever or whatever the fuck that would be?, that
must be undermined and understood! So life for most
of humanity is spent trying to cure the symptoms by
bullshitting themselves and each other with one
bullshit story after another, instead of , DUH,
looking to goddaman disease itself. Your *self*
creation.

I was sitting talking with this woman yesterday and
she's telling her tale of emotional woes and how
unhappy she is. And I sat there listening to her
and then she stopped for a moment and I leaned
across the table, looked at her, and said, "Uh, I
don't give a shit." And then she quickly started
her story up again and I said, excuse me, didn't
you hear me, I said I don't give a shit. And she
got this shocked *how dare you!* look on her face
and I said, and I don't know why you give a shit
either? And then I said what's the matter with you,
are you nuts? Her eyeballs got as big as saucers
but she started in again, with her but, but, buts.
And I got up and walked away and said, sorry, I
have no interest in your shit.

She came to me a few hours later and said, I really
liked our conversation.

______________________________________________________________________

Metta Zetty is back from a 3 month business
commitment and is making changes in her online
activities. See

http://awakening.net/Note.html

________________________________________________________________________





Visiting Oxford 15/8 - 20/8

Dear friends,
I am visiting Oxford, England as above and I would very much like to meet
fellow-Buddhists and inter-faith workers when there.
Please contact me off list at johnwillemsens@... for my exact
schedule etc.
Kind regards,
John Willemsens (Advayavadananda).
...................
Advayavada Buddhism Infocenter - Amsterdam
http://www.euronet.nl/~advaya/ananda.htm




Hi John Willemsens (Advayavadananda,

If you are coming near the London megatropolis or mystical rural
Glastonbury then get in touch and maybe we can meet.

I've started getting born-again Christians at my satsangs and now I
am waiting for Buddhists...enlightenment ain't hard it just takes
lifetimes

love dave oshana

please email me at my website

http://www.oshana.org





_______________________________________________________________________







Hi Gene,

Further to what you write about movement/unrest;
When a position is taken relative to the
flow, movement forms into pattern, design. I can only
act according to this pattern.
Otherwise I am blindly thrashing around.

love,
andrew




Hi Gene/Andrew,

Interesting message Gene.

Do we need space to be 'other than' whole, space to become and move into?
Which is to equate space with time.

Andrew said:
> Further to what you write about movement/unrest;
> When a position is taken relative to the
> flow, movement forms into pattern, design. I can only
> act according to this pattern.
> Otherwise I am blindly thrashing around.

It could be said that 'Iam unrest', by that I mean that there is no unrest
separate from myself. Realising that I rest!

We want pattern, order and design very much in our lives I feel, so much so
we try and control ourselves. But can there be a pattern without control,
without me. This would be a pattern without a patterner. Oneness with
design.

Is chaos trying to make design my own?
Is order, surender to divine design.

On this I ponder this evening,
Gary






I only observe that if attention remains on the background radiation of unrest;
if
there is observation of movement from the pointless still point, an elaborate
pattern
or design is seen to blossom. As this pattern is seen, it becomes possible to
move
into it as along the lines of a labyrinth or a mandala, which is movement of a
different order than the brownian-motion-like buffeting of blind unrest. It's
coherent.

andrew


________________________________________________________________________

                                          hi nondual cats!
                                        is it time for holiday?
                                       when so, pack and go!

                                          party for felines!
                                     feasts at night rest in the sun
                                         always in for fun!

                                      when it's hot, the beach...
                                      look - the ocean is a drop
                                       one that's within reach!



                                                Jan




________________________________________________________________________





So, :-), what I've decided to do, is to start selling bundt pans, SACRED
BUNDT PANS. And there are so many of you stoopids out there, I'm gonna
sell a
million of 'em. :-) I'm looking around for a jeweler right now to make
me a mold, so you can all "proudly" wear your own little bundt pans
around your neck. :-) Not to
mention, you can give them away as gifts too! :-)

And as James always says ...

heh heh heh heh! :-)


--
Happy Days,
Judi


________________________________________________________________________








         ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` `

         When someone calls you
         stupid and foolish
         you mind it.
         Knowing this,
         the Sages use the word
         Ignorance.¹

         Ignorance is something
         you don¹t know
         and when you are thinking
         about what you don¹t know,
         what are you going
         to get from it?

         OOh, I¹m thinking
         in order to know it,¹
         but the whole fallacy is
         because you¹re thinking
         you¹re not knowing it;
         you¹re blocking it.

         Stop thinking
         and start seeing;
         then you¹ll know it.

                       - Swami Amar Jyoti

         ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` `

"In Light of Wisdom"
Swami Amar Jyoti
Truth Consciousness, Boulder, Colorado, 1983

Dear Members of the Highlights List,

As the result of upcoming changes on the NDS list, this list is on
hiatus. It may return in the near future, so please stay subscribed.
There may be a call for new editors.

This list began on June 2, 1999, and has generated 788 posts. The
archive is a compendium of some of the best posts sent to the Nonduality
Salon. The archive is at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NDhighlights/messages

Thank you for being a great audience. Without the list members, there'd
be no archive, no collection of great posts from which a person could
harvest a good book if they wanted to.

Like I say, stay tuned. Thank you for your loyalty and for receiving
this work. Deep gratitude to Gloria Lee and Andrew Macnab, the current
and most faithful editors in this project. They remained on board from
day one.  Thanks to the many other editors who contributed significantly
in this effort: Melody Anderson (who was the original owner), Beth, Mark
Otter, OH, Bruce Morgen, Lynn Helwig, Christiana Duranczyk. Hope I
didn't forget anyone.

Love,
Jerry Katz

Received from someone who would like to know if
anyone is near her. Please write to me for this
person's email address.

Jerry <umbada@...>

diana wrote:

I am moderately close to whoever is in Albany, but
was wondering about anyone closer to the Thousand
Islands.

Thanks.

diana

____________________________________________________________________

OSHANA

Hi,

As you may know the Oshana satsangs have a matrix
theme. There have been a few developments ..a
movement away from temporary Awakenings and an
investigation towards permanent Enlightenment..yes,
we know 'nothing is fixed' except for The One ..One
one, one one...unchanging whatever-ness - or so we
have been told!

So, Oshana satsangs are full of energetic packages
and experiential surprises that might make the the
notional Advaita purist turn in his grave but not
the Source, or Ramana Maharshi - just a thought, an
eenny-weeny one

My research topic for today:

mysterious reports have been coming in about a
group in Australia whose daily spiritual practice
is to watch "The Matrix" movie

has anyone heard such a thing?

ttfn,

dave

http://www.oshana.org

_______________________________________________________________________

MARK OTTER

By John:

Words are flowing out like endless rain into a paper cup
They slither wildly as they slip away
Across the universe
Pools of sorrow, waves of joy are drifting through my opened mind
Possessing and caressing me

Nothing's gonna change my world
Nothing's gonna change my world
Nothing's gonna change my world
Nothing's gonna change my world

Images of broken light which dance before me like a million eyes
They call me on and on
Across the universe
Thoughts meander like the restless wind inside a letter box
They tumble blindly as they make their way
Across the universe

Nothing's gonna change my world
Nothing's gonna change my world
Nothing's gonna change my world
Nothing's gonna change my world

Sounds of laughter, shades of life are ringing through my open ears
Inciting and inviting me
Limitless undying love, which shines around me like a million suns
It calls me on and on and on
Across the universe

Nothing's gonna change my world
Nothing's gonna change my world
Nothing's gonna change my world
Nothing's gonna change my world
Jai Guru Deva

______________________________________________________________________

GREG GOODE

Ultimately there's neither seeing, soul, blindness,
duality nor nonduality, nor their opposites,
anywhere. These tales can be presented in a variety
of ways.

______________________________________________________________________

VALERIE

here's my dilemma - up here - the people - i found
myself with a couple of people I thought were
"friends" who were being quite lowbrow - you know -
you wouldn't expect it of spiritual aspirants or
people who were working on themselves as much. The
seven deadly sins like for instance - one so called
friend being covetous and jealous, another guy
being vengeful and wrathful, etc. it's odd how when
one is not within a similar "community" what one
will overlook. And I was quite shocked and hurt to
be treated this way. But - they each have their
strong points, their good points - each one could
survive in the woods a long time after some
civilized disaster - it's just that - should
friends have to be on guard against attacks from
the libidos from other people whom call themselves
friends? If people are not even on the spiritual
path yet, or maybe just pay it lip service, should
it pose a problem to friendship? It seems so
"hoity-toity"...

I know - once on the spritual path you find it
everywhere, even in bars and the most unlikely
places! But if people have recognized no "Higher
Power" in themselves or in their lives yet, can
situations such as I have described above and more
- such as thievery and worse - be expected to
happen? (well - duh, have i answered my own
question here?)

GARY MERRILL

I know - once on the spritual path you find it
everywhere, even in bars and the most unlikely
places! But if people have recognized no "Higher
Power" in themselves or in their lives yet, can
situations such as I have described above and more
- such as thievery and worse - be expected to
happen? (well - duh, have i answered my own
question here?) --valerie

I don't see it as surprising to find that someone
on a spiritual path is pursuing self interest.
Isn't being on a 'spiritual path' just self interet
cloaked over, concealed. Giving rise to the
conceipt of spiritual pride (before a fall).

The question is 'is it possible not to be on any
path?' and what would that mean, and also is it
possible to end all seeking or for seeking to drop
away? Because we are our paths.

The question of friendship is an interesting one
and I suppose the honest answer would be that we
often have friends because we 'like' them, we are
like them and we gain mutual gratification and
assurance. Until we don't anyway, then maybe a
divorce :-) Perhaps a better approach to
'friendship' would be 'those that communicate or
commune or share in some way'. Aloneness comes into
this as well I think, whether there's a needful
relationship or not. (I'm not sure I would want to
join any club which would have me as a member :-))

MARK OTTER

Hi Valerie,

I wonder if it is possible to be on a spiritual
path oneself and not be tested in some way. It
sounds like an opportunity has arisen to see into
the motives of others, recognize something of one's
self in their behavior (it's all just a mirror),
forgive both the "others" and the "self", bring
unconditional love into the scene, and realize the
underlying unity. If you can see it in this way,
perhaps you will come to see all of it this way.
(and if you succeed at this, perhaps you can help
me to...)

well, just a thought from this side of the
bleachers. I wish you well with your journey.

SU GANDOLF

Hi Valerie,

I think questions regarding how to live with others
are a deep, lifelong "koan". I try not to "get the
answers" to these questions, because those
"answers" will inevitably be, ultimately,
unsatisfactory. You can always get someone to
val-idate :) whatever you need validated at a
particular time, and there is nothing "wrong" with
that. Is there an answer you were hoping to hear
from someone on this list? Well, whatever it is,
it's available to you. Trust yourself. You are free
to cut yourself off from particular people, to
judge them, to get out of their way when they start
swinging their ax your way, to tell them how you
feel. You are free to have one set of expectations
for those who call themselves "spiritual" and one
for those who do not, to decide that people who
make such distinctions are "hoity-toity", etc. You
are also free to change your mind. Life is flux.
Or, it "is". I prefer to allow the questions
themselves to deepen, than to fix on the "answers".
You say you were hurt. I have two responses. I'm
sorry... and, wonderful! Disappointment creates
abundant opportunity to let go of everything
(illusion, hope, expectation) that keeps us from
realizing what's here, now.

NINA

I'm smack in the middle of a not-so friendly
maelstrom with a colleague I consider(ed?) a good
friend. It began with a cinnamon roll referred to
as white trashy. It was fed with miscommunication
and then no communication (I was given the silent
treatment for two weeks... totally unacceptable
when you're working on projects with someone). It
gained allies in my work stress and health
difficulties. This morning, what seemed to be the
beginning of resolution, something that began with
apologies both ways, quickly descended into the
hell of manipulative demands and passive-aggressive
non- resolving, plus a hefty dose of boiling blood.
There was a loud blow up that could be heard by
all, including the client my boss was meeting with.
I left the office.

So, after spending the past few hours on top of a
parking garage alternating weeping with sitting
dumbstruck, thinking I would be able to pull myself
together, I finally gave up on going back to work.
I spent some time wandering aimlessly around town
instead. I'll probably let the dogs out soon, lock
up the flat, and go back to wandering.

(I did, however, call to let my boss know that I
would be in for my 4pm job review! Oh, yes, I have
been on my best possible behavior this morning!)

Yes, Su... good practice for letting go of
everything. Hard to chew it right now, though.

YOGINI SAKTI

Valerie wrote [[.. i found myself with a couple of
people I thought were "friends" .. you wouldn't
expect it of spiritual aspirants or people who were
working on themselves as much.]] ** How long have
you known these folk? Perhaps they have always been
they way the are now, as you see them. Perhaps you
are seeing them through 'new' eyes, with enhanced
clarity.

[[.. I was quite shocked and hurt to be treated
this way.]] ** It is important to understand
'what', inside ourselves, that causes these
feelings. Can you recall another time where you
felt this way? What is so 'shocking' & 'hurt'ful
about their actions? Discrimination and discernment
are valuable tools.

[[If people are not even on the spiritual path yet,
or maybe just pay it lip service, should it pose a
problem to friendship?]] ** This depends solely on
you Valerie. Each of us must, with each breath,
define our relationships. To ourselves, our
co-workers, our family, our environment, etc.

[[.. if people have recognized no "Higher Power" in
themselves or in their lives yet, can situations
[snip] be expected to happen?]] ** Certainly.
Without a personal code of morals & ethics the
individual(s) in question will live their life
based on personal perception of 'right' &/or
'wrong'. Just as those of us who have a particular
philosophy do; we seek to live within the
perimeters of our path, as well as determine what
our chosen credos mean once filtered through our
personal experience.

Su advised [[You are free to cut yourself off
[snip] You are free to have one set of expectations
for those who call themselves "spiritual" and one
for those who do not [snip] You are also free to
change your mind.]] ** Precisely!

[[Disappointment creates abundant opportunity to
let go of everything ..]] ** I agree completely!

Om Santi ... Yogini Sakti

____________________________________________________________________

DICK FORTIER

Hi everyone, This is my first posting so please be
kind; I'm old and have a very fragile ego. The
recent discussions remind me of a story about
Gurdjieff. It seems he charged exorbitant rates for
his schools, since he felt that people would pay
more attention if they had to pay a great deal.
(Well that's what he said.) Anyway, in one of his
schools there was a very disruptive person who was
antagonizing the other participants to no end. This
person finally decided to leave the school, which
made everyone else very happy. When Gurdjieff found
out, he tracked the person down at the rail station
and actually begged him to come back. He finally
persuaded this person by promising to refund all of
his money. When the other participants found out,
they were extremely upset and complained bitterly
to Gurdjieff. His reply was that this person was
the best possible resource for them to find out
about themselves. End of story. I understand this
forum has rules and I agree with them. My only
thought was, If someone either on the forum or a
friend is antagonizing us; aren't we supposed to
ask who is being antagonized and why. (Excluding
the moderator, who has to keep the rules.) Love to
all Dick Fortier

SARLO

A good question but it has some assumptions built
in, particularly that this forum is a mystery
school under the direction of a Gurdjieff or Pema
Chodron or equivalent, and that participants know
and accept these conditions.

I don thin so, as the "disruptive person" under
consideration might say. Therefore we are obliged
to consider the analogy as less than apt.

Yes, it is more or less always a good idea
inquiry-into-truthwise to ask who is being
antagonised and why. But acceptance of this useful
principle as overriding all others allows certain
types of abusive people to indulge in abuse that
may not always be in participants' best interests
growth-wise. Indeed i would say that acceptance of
*any* principle as overriding all others will lead
to some form of abuse. The legalistic approach must
always run into situations which fall between the
cracks. Gödel says this is true even of scientific
systems, so what to say of sociopolical ones? We
are left with trusting the moderator and
co-participants or not.

Abusive people come in many shapes and sizes and
MOs. They are as attracted to lists like this one
as a pedophile is to scout troops and day-care
centers. Freedom of speech: great moral principle.
"Ask yourself who is being abused, not who is
abusing you": Ramana, Wayne, Todd, all the biggies
say so. What's it spell? License to abuse. Who
could ask for more?

But we have to consider others' rights to a list
more free of abuse. If there is to be some sort of
consensus here -- not to be confused with democracy
-- eventually a recidivist abuser will have to
leave. We had one on a list i moderate. The whining
over unsubbing continues on other lists of which we
are both members; in fact, he blessed NDS with a
whine about the time Gene took over. It's not like
they give up easily.

But it's also not like this is the only place where
they can indulge their dumping and projections.
People who unrepentently give themselves permission
to abuse others and cannot self-moderate should
stick to lists where complete freedom is allowed or
their own lists where they make the rules. They
don't belong in a list like NDS.

SU GANDOLF

Yeah, this is a good reminder. Only, I have to put
this story in the "Urban Legend" category. The
version I heard was identical, except it was not
Gurjieff. It took place in a Buddhist monastery.
I'm pretty sure Pema Chodron tells this story in
one of her books. Still, there is Truth there, if
not fact.

____________________________________________________________________

MARK OTTER

BEAR WITH IT, NINA!!!! Something important is
happening, and it will work out fine. I've got two
weeks left in my job, which blew up in my face
something awful, but I'm calm finally (It's been
over a year in process, and I too have sat in the
parking lot trying to figure out what the hell to
do while moistening my face as if I were watering
crops in the desert... (huh?)

seriously, God is pulling the strings here. Stick
around to see how it works out. (ie be a witness to
it and don't prejudge it using old standards.)
___________________________________________________________________________

MICHAEL READ

ARKANSAS CITY (EAP) -- A Little Rock woman was
killed yesterday after leaping through her moving
car's sun roof during an incident best described as
"a mistaken rapture" by dozens of eye witnesses.

Thirteen other people were injured after a
twenty-car pile up resulted from people trying to
avoid hitting the woman who was apparently
convinced that the rapture was occurring when she
saw twelve people floating up into the air, and
then passed a man on the side of the road who she
claimed was Jesus.

"She started screaming "He's back, He's back" and
climbed right out of the sunroof and jumped off the
roof of the car," said Everett Williams, husband of
28-year-old Georgann Williams who was pronounced
dead at the scene.

"I was slowing down but she wouldn't wait till I
stopped," Williams said. She thought the rapture
was happening and was convinced that Jesus was
gonna lift her up into the sky," he went on to say.

"This is the strangest thing I've seen since I've
been on the force," said Paul Madison, first
officer on the scene.

Madison questioned the man who looked like Jesus
and discovered that he was dressed up as Jesus and
was on his way to a toga costume party when the
tarp covering the bed of his pickup truck came
loose and released twelve blow up sex dolls filled
with helium which floated up into the air.

Ernie Jenkins, 32, of Fort Smith, who's been told
by several of his friends that he looks like Jesus,
pulled over and lifted his arms into the air in
frustration, and said , "Come back here," just as
the Williams' car passed him, and Mrs. Williams was
sure that it was Jesus lifting people up into the
sky as they passed by him, according to her
husband, who says his wife loved Jesus more than
anything else.

When asked for comments about the twelve sex dolls,
Jenkins replied "This is all just too weird for me.
I never expected anything like this to happen."

JOHN METZGER

Walking     Nagarjuna

I do not walk between
The step already taken
And the one I'm yet to take,
Which both are motionless.

Is walking not the motion
Between one step and the next?
What moves between them?
Could I not move as I walk?

If I move when I walk,
There would be two motions:
One moving me and one moving my feet--
Two of us stroll by.

There is no walking without walkers,
And no walkers without walking.
Can I say that walkers walk?
Couldn't I say they don't?

Walking does not start
In steps taken or to come
Or in the act itself.
Where does it begin?

Before I raise a foot,
Is there motion,
A step taken or to come
Whence walking could begin?

What has gone?
What moves?
What is to come?

Can I speak of walkers,
When neither walking,
Steps taken nor to come ever end?

Were walking and walkers one,
I would be unable to tell them apart;
Were they different,
There would be walkers who do not walk.

These moving feet reveal a walker
But did not start him on his way.
There was no walker prior to departure.
Who was going where?

__________________________________________________________________

GARY MERRILL

It was recently mentioned that some people on this
list are advocates of 'sudden awakening' and the
'direct path', Just to make clear that I am not one
such advocate;

Those that engage in any process must do so towards
an end; end and means; So when is the end? If a
process is to have an end then surely that end must
be sudden? Further, any path must surely be direct
if it is to lead anywhere.

Only those which are asleep need to be awakened it
seems; and how would the sleepers know what it is
to be awake I wonder? How would those that are
awake be sure they are not still asleep??

Without path I wander through the days of my life,
alone and without fear, I shall not want, leaving
that to better men and women.

___________________________________________________________________

ANDREW MACNAB

Mark W. Otter wrote:
  > Now, "theocracy", THERE'S a word.

Theo Cracy, eccentric engineer and stone mason,
invented and manufactured an electronic device for
measuring the stresses and strains in flying
buttresses, the technocracy, there was an automated
version, the autocracy, and a version with a
transparent case, the democracy. Theo disappeared
into obscurity after his business was taken over by
the reclusive tycoon Dick 'Tator' Ship.

love,
andrew

__________________________________________________________________________

MICHAEL READ

I got mine,
Did you get yours?
I found it right here,
Where is yours?
It was here all along,
Why are you looking over there?
I learned that I am nobody,
Do you enjoy being somebody?
It really is nothing,
Why look for something?

Yabba-dabba-doo! - Michael

_____________________________________________________________________________

SU

what this list is for, for me....This sincere
sharing from a place of nondual understanding (or
aspiration to understand). It doesn't matter.
(Thank you, Mark.) And maybe some general
atmosphere of mutual support. I don't know. There
are intangibles. I am not interested in "flames" or
personal attacks. But I do not "write people off"
or look at these things in a black-or-white way. I
enjoy being challenged. It is not characteristic
for me to write reactively or in anger, yet I did.
Which is wonderful too, for me. Because I AM all of
it. Thank you for the question. This list, at this
moment, no, these few months as a unit, has been a
lovely way to connect with, accept and understand
the Self as self and the Self as other. And blah,
blah, blah (I also enjoy words well-used). I may
"take a vacation", and I did not mention that as a
"threat". Posting some here, on this issue or
others, helps clarify things. Including motives,
whatever the action is. Fuck, it's just so fucking
rich. Can you see?

_________________________________________________________________________

MICHAEL JOHNSON

I have been an on again, off again subscriber to
NDS for the last two or three years. In that time I
have learned a lot from the compassionate responses
and from the seemingly "harsh" responses. The
former made me feel good, the latter hurt and
angered me...yet they all were appropriate for "my"
growth and awakening. I still live my life asleep
most of the time and for some unknown stupid reason
I come back on this list to wake up to the fact
that there are all kinds of people in the world.
The "spiritual" people are actually tougher on the
ego than is the rest of world. Why is this?
Probably because they can see when others are
operating out of ignorance and on lists like these,
they feel safe to let it all hang out!

There is an old saying..."If you can't stand the
heat, get out of the kitchen".

When I unsubscribe...this is what I am doing and I
do it for me.

________________________________________________________________________

YOGINI SAKTI

Someone wrote [[.. yogis are all about "management
technique",]] ** This is far from an accurate
description of what a yogin is or does.

Yogins are those who practice Rajayoga. Individuals
who have received diksha; individuals who are
sadhakas &/or sannyasins.

And as pertains to myself, someone who will one day
become a swami.

"In the one who has conquered his self & is
peaceful, the Supreme Self - in heat or cold, joy
or pain, honor or disgrace - abides in serenity. He
who is full of wisdom & understanding, calm &
controlled, to whom a clod, a stone & gold are the
same, is in truth a yogin." - Bhagavad Gita

Om Santi ... Yogini Sakti

_________________________________________________________________________

MARK OTTER

Hi Yogini,

You said "** As children we learnt that fire burns.
As we grow-up, we have experienced this physical
reminder in a number of ways. The lesson is there
.. in our Heart. We know the sensations envolved,
there is no need to deliberately place our hands in
fire to re-remind ourselves.

Om Santi ... Yogini Sakti"

I am not disagreeing nor disagreeing here, but
inviting you to ponder awhile. My experience of
life has been that much of my energy has gone
towards worrying about attacks by other people,
whether in the form of outright rudeness, or subtle
slurs, or unconscious proffering of expectations.
This worry has resulted in fortifications that I
have erected around my heart to keep people out.
I've been investigating this awhile and working to
remove these fortifications, with some but alas not
complete success. I find that many of the most
compelling ways in which this dismantling has
occurred has required cooperation (or is it
confrontation?) from others. My most recent biggie
is the loss of my job, and my rejection of my boss
and colleagues due to my perceived rejection by
them. In fact, I lost my job because I did not do
the task. And my boss and colleages have been sorry
to see me go, at least until I started being nasty
to them due to my perceptions that they were
rejecting me... I see that it is all my own doing,
and I'm letting go of my "garbage" as best I can
and trying to heal my relationships, being patient
that it may take time as others are even yet
defending themselves against what they anticipate I
will be doing based on my past behavior. (and I
have a long-term, deeply ingrained habit of
defending myself from my projections of what they
are thinking about me. sheesh!)

I say all this to illustrate a dynamic which I feel
is quite fundamental to human suffering, which is
assuming that human behavior is as constant and
reliable as fire is. I have no doubt that fire will
burn me if I put my hand in it, but I am coming to
question this as a metaphor for human emotions.
Judi's blunt way of speaking doesn't burn me. (go
ahead, Judi, call my bluff) I've simply
recalibrated my sense of "burn" towards her and
it's quite lovely to be able to laugh at myself
with her and I trust her to laugh at herself with
me when I get in a good one. (and I get in good,
subtle ones now and then) And every now and then, I
look up from the game board and realize that we are
here together in peace or war, and that which it is
is entirely up to us. I can't control Judi's
comments, so I just let them do whatever they want.
Where I have gone wrong in the past is in judging
them and doing the activity of getting hurt by
those I judge offensive.

I think that dismantling this reaction-formation is
my central spiritual practice. Oh sure, I do
pranayama and I meditate and I do holotropic
breathwork and I read Ramana Maharshi and
Nisargadatta and those are all wonderful things to
do, but to me their value is in how they support me
to dismantle my assumptions that anything can harm
me and that there is any reason for me to be
offended by anything. So, while I am not here to
defend Judi's style, or to prolong the discussion
surrounding her (can you feel her spirit revelling
in the attention?), I am here to participate in the
lists interest and exploration of the concept of
nonduality. Years ago, I submitted to Jerry, back
when he was steering this ship, the definition of
nonduality that I find worthy of work. "To me,
nondualism means we no longer stand at dawn to
shoot each other down with archaic emotional
pistols."

Well, I am doing exactly what I am preaching
against, so let me stop with the thought that you
can't convince anyone else to stop dueling, you can
only convince yourself.

I wish you luck in convincing yourself, and I am
fondly hoping that you will wish me luck in
convincing myself. Once there is no activity
defending the self, the self disappears, because
the self was that activity all along. ("I"
suspect.)

Love, Mark

_______________________________________________________________________

MELODY

" i heard it said and know it to be true that a
sword that slashes through falsehood is a sword
that creates one rather than two through its cut."

Wow. I 'heard' that!

...

> Melody, it's rockin'... if it were a kayak, I'd be hanging upside
> down in the river with no idea how to eskimo roll it out.
>
> rock on,
> Nina

I hear you. :-)

If your experiences have been like mine, even if
you *knew* how to eskimo roll it out, something
would have prevented you from doing so. :-)

I've had a taste of being 'rocked' myself these
past weeks.

One after another, Life has presented the
(heretofore) most unbelievable challenges my
way.....

so much so that any sense of personal volition, or
idea of 'control' has evaporated.

Whatever I feared came to pass; whatever I resisted
I was presented; whatever I had 'planned' fell
apart. After a point there was nothing left to do
but laugh about it.....laugh in seeing that even
though "i" was powerless to alter, avoid, escape
from, or redirect the flow of Life,

Life continued to live and breathe thru me...

without any 'help' from 'me' whatsoever. :-)

What a hell of a summer it's been.

I wouldn't have changed it if 'i' could.

(Well, except for maybe that emergency gall bladder
surgery. Ouch! )


______________________________________________________________________


BLUEPAINT

>  I think we're all Bozos on this
>  bus.
>
> love, mark


high Heart
low mind
mean spitited
low brow
taliesin paths,
all...

NDS puts *god*
on that bus,
right there -
on the tattered
old dried gum
seat sitting
beside you and me.

the greyhound flys.

eric/bluepaint/freeheart/shiva/dogstar
just another egroup indentity
loser :-)

_______________________________________

GARY MERRILL

In a charged atmosphere
Who's side are we on
Guilt and Blame
Belong to anon.

The judger is judged
But who is on trial
This is a poser
To cry or to smile

In order to talk
All charges are dropped
Just in case next time
Its me in the dock

____________________________________________________________________

PADOVA, ITALY

You may contact this person interested in nonduality if you live in the
area:

name=Narciso Ceschi Berrini
email=narciso.ceschiberrini@...
Your Location=Padova-Italy

____________________________________________________________________

MICHAEL READ


> Hmm, "gentler, kinder" than
> who or what?
>
A kinder gentler form of spiritual facism - to be blunt about it.
The founder often breaks the rules and shows little or no respect for
'all paths'.

HS is supposed to be 'blessed by Ramana' -
interesting...he has been dead, what, some 40 or 50
years?

In the words of Old Ch'eng:

"...But, since you are incapable of seeing your
Buddha-nature, you fill up the void that is your
lives by dressing yourselvs up in the thoughts and
actions of those you have chosen to hold above your
heads.

This preoccupation with imitating others -- this is
the very yoke that prevents you from seeing the
origional mind."

Ah well - whatever. It doesn't really matter. Just
more characters being played by the universe.

Will these characters ever drop pretense and just
be? hahahah! Maybe - maybe not. hohoho! Should they
ever realize that ordinary life is spirit, oh! What
amazement and peace will they have then!

Awakening is not a contest nor is it done by 'you'
- it is a natural intuitive process - the flow of
life. And try to understand that awakening is not
required nor will every 'character' experience it.

So, 'who' am 'I' talking to? Find out!

nothing higher
nothing lower
no you
no me
just this
abundance

Loveya - buncha goofballs - Michael

GARY MERRILL

It strikes me how it is that at first we seem to be
someone going somewhere as if in a line going from
A to B. Later the journey seems more like a circle
as we discover that we are not going anywhere
except returning home, where we started. (lots of
little going round in circles meantime :-))

Intesting that the circle is symbol of completion
and wholeness. Everyone and everything in its place
on the circle are equally worthy and no one is
really in front of anyone else. The first will be
last. Its a different kind of 'non-dual' insight
that allows for all forms to be as one and as none.
In a culture where 'progress' is taken as the be
all of everything we are rare birds that don't
follow any way. That cycles speak of harmony is
easy to see, though in practise we behave as if we
won't be happy until we find a way of having
permanent daylight.

Love speaks of the wholeness of life, and at the
end of the day maybe that's all we ever wanted or
needed?

__________________________________________________________________

GREG GOODE

Is the progression always linear? There are
different kinds of answers to this.

1. Broad strokes - Like Maslow's Hierarchy, one
tends to seek food, and shelter before
psychological fulfillment, and this before what he
called "self actualization." But that is a
description of broad strokes, overall tendencies.
There are interpenetrations within the hirerarchy.
One can do spiritual practices and chanting and
meditation and therapy the same day or same week
that one inquires into the nature of the Self.

2. In the old days, before Barnes and Noble and
Amazon - the teacher could enforce things to be
linear. Buddhism - one of the pre-requisites for
being given the teachings on emptiness (no-self) is
that the student would break out in tears of joy
and goosebumps when they hear the very word
"emptiness." If they are exposed to the teachings
beforehand, then this could lead to dodging,
inauthenticity, and a nihilistic attitude, where
the student misunderstands, thinking, "Things are
empty, so it doesn't matter what I do..." In
Advaita Vedanta - it teaches that in the old days
of India, the family guru would teach ethics and
the proper form for worship and duties. If the guru
saw that one of the family members had the
pre-requisites for learning the non-dual teachings,
*only then* would the teaching begin. Shankara was
pretty specific about laying out the what he called
the "four-fold qualifications" for the study of
advaita. Without these, the student wouldn't
receive the non-dual teachings:


    1. Being able to discriminate between the eternal and the timebound;
between the unlimited and the limited.
    2. Absence of craving; and dispassion towards likes and dislikes.
    3. Control of the mind, control of the tongue and limbs from
unwholesome
actions, observance of one's duty according to their station in life (a
big
lesson in the Bhagavad Gita), faith in the words of the teacher and
texts,
the ability to have one-pointedness of mind towards a single object.
    4. The burning desire for liberation.
3. In the days of the Internet, there's the
invisible-hand effect that makes for some linearity
- people tend to try everthing, and stick with what
works. So one time try what is billed as "the
highest teaching," but later they find themselves
often going back, pulled as if by an invisible
hand, to what might have been considered a "lower"
teaching. Like my friends, who 4 years ago would
have scoffed at EMDR. Now they have done it and are
great proponents of it!

Yes, I've heard of Jon Welwood. Here's a quote from
something he said I think in an interview (thanks
to http://www.ciis.edu/admin/welwoodarticle.html).
He uses the term "spiritual bypassing" here.
There's something similar - Andrew Cohen coined it,
"The Advaita Shuffle."

He says, "I see many people who do very
sophisticated spiritual practices, but at the same
time they are functioning at a very low level of
personal development. They have compartmentalized
spirituality rather than integrated it into their
everyday lives. This kind of 'spiritual bypassing'
can be used so that you don't have to deal with
personal and interpersonal difficulties. I think
this kind of work needs to be integrated into our
lives if the planet is to survive."

___________________________________________________________________

NINA

"melody" <melody@s...> wrote:
> Only then could I begin to question who
> this "I" was....and begin to let go of some
> of my most precious self 'defining' patterns
> of identity.

Melody, this is a very interesting thought... this
perspective of "progression". Though I can see
elements of "progression" within my own experience,
as a whole, I would say it has been very different
from yours.

For me, it has been the sort of "drop her in and
see what she does" experiment... and it has been
going on for years. Should I get used to this
rubber band? Perhaps... but each time is a new
surprise.

I am typically totally unprepared for most of the
"big events"... :) forget not being able to hear...
think: completely overstimulated... hehe... or
"understimulated", if you prefer.

____________________________________________________________________

JOHN METZGER

Essence   Nagarjuna

If my essence came
From causes and conditions,
It would have been constructed---
Essences are neither contingent nor contrived.

If I have no essence,  how can you?
What is other for me is for you your own---
How can you not be
Yourself or someone else?

Without something,
There could be no nothing---
Do not people say:
A thing becomes nothing
When it changes into something else?

You who behold
Somethings and nothings,
Yourselves and others,
Are blind to what the Buddha taught.

Through understanding
Somethings and nothings,
Gautama told Katyayana
To relinquish being and nothingness.

If I had an essence,
I would never cease to be me---
My nature could never be anything else.
If I had no essence,
Whose nature would it be to be anything else?

"I am me, I will never not be"---
The longing for eternity.
"I used to be, I am not any  more"---
The cut of annihilation.

The sage avoids being and nothingness.

________________________________________________________________________

MELODY

I'm saying there is Awareness ....a state of
'being', if you will......in which the 'thought' of
self as separate and distinct from any 'other' does
not ever occur.

It does not 'order' all this.....it just 'sees' all
this, experiences all this....without ever naming
it, or discecting it or making any distinctions
whatsoever.

I'll give an example of one of my first experiences
of such an awareness. Some call it an experience of
'no-self'...:

(For those of you who have heard this story, please
forgive the repeat.)

I used to work as a hypnotherapist. One day I had
scheduled much heaving than was my custom.

I had scheduled 3 clients back to back, without a
break, to be followed by a session with a peer...in
which we took turns 'working' with each other.

After my third one and a half to two hour sessions,
my girlfriend rang the door, and I invited her in.
Almost immediately she asked, "What do you need to
do today?"

Her question stunned me. I couldn't answer it it at
first because I first had to find this 'you' she
was talking to. I had absolutely no sense of this
'me' she was talking to....much less any sense of
any accompanying 'neediness'.

It took only moments....what felt like minutes...
to finally 'find' and then reconnect with, a sense
of 'me' .

And when I found it....and connected to it.... I
was immediately disappointed. It was as if a 'wide
angle lens' had snapped shut, and I was left with
very narrow one.

Looking back I could see that I had gone quite some
time that day without a single thought of my self -
no self referencing at all....not even to think of
being thirsty, or wondering when I will get a
break, or thinking that her story "reminds me
of".....none of that.

And the clients tell me those were some of the most
effective sessions they had had with me....even
though "I"....that sense of "I"....with all my good
intentions....was not present.

_________________________________________________________________

MICHAEL GALAHAD

Horse with black and white paint? They said I was a
tiger!

Jesus earned his stripes... How did Buddha get his?
Wow. That is freedom. Wow. That is power.

Karma builds energy as it comes around. Therefore,
get out of the habit of 'letting it slide' (this
drains the source energy) rather, learn to 'let it
go'... your movement to the source is all that is
required. No need to take short cuts or go
around... it adjusts as it goes.

Patience.

It may be funny that you have stolen my money and
yet the joke is what you stole well,... those funds
were given to purchase your souls. Now I am broke.

There is no room for lazy people in social
services. Lazy people are for profit organization.
Just like those that leech social services funding
to support their flandering coffee businesses.

No one understands the help as they have forgotten
how to.

The name may be stolen and destroyed but the being
I am remains eternal and everlasting. Canada is the
merging of all cultures. Is it any wonder than that
I, Jesus Christ, would be found amoung them?

My defence? Mission: Conquer death. Style to be
used? Escape and Evasion. I took what I needed when
I needed it as I needed it. I said what I needed to
say when I needed to say it as 'it needed to be
said'.

o -- hobbes; 0,0,0,0:00.00 Nao

The process of 'thinking' is a comparison/negation
of what you do not know as it relates to what you
do know creating a natural erosion of the purity of
the moment.

___________________________________________________________________

MICHAEL READ

LIBERATION

Who and what we are lives in the moment without
fear. At the same time it also appears as distinct
characters in the play. Deep down we know that to,
as the saying goes, merge with god means the end of
the character. We do not want the play to end and
so tend to shy away from that which we seek. Ironic
isn't it?!

I gaurantee that if and when 'you' do 'merge' with
the infinite conciousness and know beyond a doubt,
belief, or concept who you really are - you will
come back and continue in the play.

Ah, will the play then hold the same charm? Or,
will your participation be free and joyous?! That's
what you really want to know.

Peace - at play in the fields of eternity - Michael

MICHAEL JOHNSON

Hi:

I have been trying to get my "mind" around Ramana's
path to realization by self inquiry.

He says to consider the world as a dream.

When a thought comes up to inquire:

To whom does this thought come?

It comes to me.

Who am I?

By discarding all thoughts this way my mind will
become quiet by going back to the source of
mind...i.e,. Self.

Has anyone here used this method successfully?

TODD

It took 40 years for him to achieve whatever he
achieved. He talked to others like we all do. He
died of cancer like many others have done. He is
like all of us but he became a worldly star like
Mother Teresa or Marilyn Monroe.

DICK FORTIER

I have been doing self inquiry for a short time (2
months) so I can't talk from experience; however, I
have a book, The Path Of Sri Ramana Part I, written
by Sri Sadhu Om who was a disciple of Sri Ramana.
The book is 118 pages all devoted to how to do self
inquiry. Sri Sadhu has gone to a great deal of
explanation to try to help people do self inquiry
correctly. Therefore, if you're looking for
experince in doing self inquiry, I won't be much
help, but if you are looking for information on how
to do self inquiry, the book I have is very
helpful. I would be happy to quote any part of the
book you might find helpful. For example, from page
123, "many, thinking that they are engaged in
Self-inquiry, sit down for hours together simply
repeating mentally or vocally, "Who am I?" or
"Whence am I?". There are others again who, when
they sit for enquiry, face their thoughts and
endlessly repeat mentally the following questions
taught by Sri Bhagavan, "To whom come these
thoughts? To me; who am I?", or sometimes they even
wait for the next thought to come up so that they
can fling these questions at it!" Following on page
124 he states, "Therefore, all that we are to
practice is to be still(summa iruppadu) with the
remembrance of the feeling 'I'." Lastly, on page
125 he states, "The enquiry begins only during the
liesure hours of the waking state when one sits for
practice."

I don't know what info you need, but as I said I
will be happy to quote any information from this
book that you might need.

LARRY BIDDENGER

Hi Michael,

You wrote, "I guess what I am after is a
"testimony" :-)." No one really has a story. How
can anyone say I came from over there; I went this
way; and by doing so I arrived here. The truth is I
was never over there; I was always here. Here is
all there is. There are instructions and practices,
but instructions and practices go nowhere and do
nothing. To immerse oneself in instructions and
practices is to find a home here, where you already
are. Ironic perhaps, but who can say it is a wasted
effort going nowhere, doing nothing.

__________________________________________________________________

MELODY AND GARY

MELODY:
I'm saying there is Awareness ....a state of
'being', if you will......in which the 'thought' of
self as separate and distinct from any 'other' does
not ever occur.

It does not 'order' all this.....it just 'sees' all
this, experiences all this....without ever naming
it, or discecting it or making any distinctions
whatsoever.

I'll give an example of one of my first experiences
of such an awareness. Some call it an experience of
'no-self'...:

GARY:
Thanks for your story. Interesting though that
after the event one looks back and calls this
'Awareness' or 'no self' in order to categorise
what happened. (Having done the same myself) what
then seems to happen is that this 'special'
condition becomes a desired object, so one is then
left with the problem of how to get back to 'it'
and the mind is back in division between how it is
and how it should be (future self). This has
happened countless times. And it is this very
division of the mind that prevents that wholeness
and selfless flow.

This is why in the previous post I hesitate at an
answer. As soon as an answer is identified call it
'Awareness', 'No self' or whatever this becomes an
object, a choice. (Which brings in philosphy
again). Then the mechanical process of changing to
'something' in time is continued with again. The
more subtle queston is 'Is it possible to live
without objective identity?' Without an answer?

It strikes me today how much change is the nature
of things (spontaneous change in fact) and how much
our strategies exist to stop this change and to
make an island of certainty from which to live.

__________________________________________________________________________

JOHN METZGER

Acts    Nagarjuna
1.
Buddha taught that acts
Are motives of the mind
And words and gestures
You are moved to express.

Restraining yourself
And loving others
Are seeds that bear fruit
In this life and beyond.

2.
If they lasted 'til they ripened,
Acts would be static.
If acts stopped,
How would they bear fruit?

Seeds turn into plants that bear fruit.
Motives turn into minds that bear fruit.
Seeds are neither severed from
Nor forever fused with fruits of plants,
Motives neither severed from
Nor forever fused with fruits of minds.

No killing and no stealing,
No abusing and no lying,
No slandering, swearing, gossiping,
No coveting, resenting or fixating:

These pristine acts
Are ways to practice
That ripen as beauty and pleasure
Here and elsewhere.

3.
Acts, like contracts,
Are as irrevocable as debts--
Their irrevocability
Ensures fruition.

Only patient cultivation
Frees you from their grip--
Insight by itself is insufficient.
Were acts transcended
By understanding--
Insight would destroy them.

Irrevocability alone survives
The vexed transition
From one life to the next--
Emptiness does not negate it;
Life does not set it in stone.

4.
My acts are irrevocable
Because they have no essence.
If they had an essence,
They would be permanent.
No one could have performed them.
I would fear the consequence
Of things I did not do.
I would not lead a noble life.

Descriptions would conflict
With one another.
I would be incapable
Of telling good and bad apart.
Having already ripened,
Acts would ripen again.

If acts are compulsive
And compulsions unreal,
How can acts be real?
Acts and compulsions form me.
What could empty acts
And compulsions form?

Blocked by confusion
Consumers consume the fruits of acts,
Which neither they
Nor anyone else committed.

Where are the doers of deeds
Absent among their conditions?
Where are the fruits of doers and deeds
That cannot be found?
Where are the consumers
Of fruits that are not there?

Imagine a magician
Who creates a creature
Who creates other creatures.
Acts I perform are creatures
Who create others.

Deeds, compulsions, bodies,
Doers, fruits are like
Invisible cities, mirages, dreams.

_________________________________________________________________

MICHAEL READ responding to Michael Johnson

> Are you saying that the fear of the character going away is also an
> illusion?  The fear of the play ending is and illusion.  The fear of
> the fear is an illusion?

Yup. It is quite the paradox. Fear can be a healthy survival
mechanism. It can teach us respect for things that have the potential
to harm us - you know like fire and bears (we have bears here) and
mean folk. On the other hand we can be totally consumed by irrational
fears - you know like 'they' will get me, whoever 'they' are.

One concept that I like to use is this: The reason awakening to our
'true nature' is so difficult is simply that we (as universal
conciousness) have done such a fine job of tricking ourself into
believing we are separate distinct individuals. The reason being - we
do enjoy the drama so much! yahoo! let's be meat and do the things
that meat beings do - yabba dabba doo!

>
> > I gaurantee that if and when 'you' do 'merge' with the infinite
> > conciousness and know beyond a doubt, belief, or concept who you
> > really are - you will come back and continue in the play.
>
> Where do we go that we have to come back from? :-))

Good question! We go nowhere and we don't always
come back! Unless we want to play some more. :-) Of
course my little 'gaurantee' is only a conceptual
way of stating what 'happens' :-)

Well, in the case of 'Michael Read' I did not pass
GO, did not collect $200, did not amass property on
Boardwalk - in other words I did not spend time in
'spiritual realms', hobnob with 'ascended masters',
hang around in 'buddha fields' or any of that
stuff. Which is cool to do if thats the way the
script goes.

Nope - I went straight to total conciousness. No
brag - just fact. heeheehee - 'Michael Read'
disappeared because he couldn't do anything else. I
'saw' all that so called spiritual stuff go by as
an 'information stream'. The ego wanted to stop the
flow and lock it down, wrap it up, and package it
at almost any point. Man did it go by fast! The
desire to stop the flow was fear.

What a hoot!

Where did I end up? Everywhere and Nowhere. It can
only be described as that - nothing. It wasn't
personal nor was it impersonal. As the old zen
masters say - to describe it is to say too much!

The effect of this 'dramatic and all encompassing
transcendent realization' (hooey) on the character
is where the fun comes in.

_________________________________________________________________

CYBER DERVISH

Distilled Wisdom of Nisargadatta

Miguel Angel Carrasco produced a compilation of
Nisargadatta's teaching by using excerpts from his
book I AM THAT. I further distilled these excerpts
and produced a tabulated selection. This is in a
easy to print Microsoft Word format. It will print
39 A4 pages of easy to read tabulated material. It
is available for download here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nisargadatta/files/NisarChosen.doc

______________________________________________________________________

GLORIA LEE

"So ham" in Sanskrit
         means  "I am He."

         Reversed, "hamsa"
         means "swan."

         This way is the way of those
         who remember I am He, He is me,
         "so ham," swan, and "hamsa," all one
         soaring beauty and freedom.

         No matter that we're busy in business
         night and day.  We don't care
         what profit comes.

         We live alone
         inside the Lord.

                 - Lalla
                   14th Century North Indian mystic

         ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` `


From "Naked Song"
Versions by Coleman Barks
Maypop, 1992

Taking your advice, I have changed my question. :-)

How did you meet the eye of the Master?

How do you know that you did meet it and that it is
not just another trick of the mind making you think
you met it?

What can you say to help me meet the Master's eye?

JERRY

doubting seems to be the road you're on, and all
roads go to the same place, so may as well stay
with it. at some point it may not seem important to
waste energy doubting anymore.

MICHAEL READ

Ordinary mind is buddha mind. Ordinary body is god
body. Ordinary life is all life.

When the thought arises that you are not, discard
it, let it go. When the thought arises that you
are, discard it, let it go. When the thought arises
that someone else is not, discard it, let it go.
When the thought arises that someone else is,
discard it, let it go.

Treat all thoughts in this manner, discard them,
let them go. Persist in this and soon you will see
that which you have always been, not that which you
imagime you will become.

If you imagine that you are bound, you are bound.
If you imagine that you are free, you are free.
Truly, neither state is the real state of affairs.
You are neither bound nor are you free. You are the
infinite self playing all the parts, suffering all
the pain, enjoying all the pleasure.

Entertain no fantasies about what is real or what
is unreal and the natural state is revealed in all
its simple splendor. It is not logical. It is not
illogical.

Purpose, meaning what are they? More fantasy!
Simply do what comes to hand to do and you are
doing everything.

Combine acceptance with judgement and you wear a
heavy chain. Practice compassion mixed with pity
and you wear leaden shoes. Allow all things to be
as they are and you are clothed in the finest
silks, shod in comfortable shoes.

Ignore this babbling madman and you are truly free!

HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!

Peace - Michael

TONY O'CLERY

As I understand it the enquiry 'Who am I?', is not
a mantra but a search for the source of our origins
or suffering. Vipassana in Bhuddism follows the
same route look for the source and you will see
there is no separate I. This deep enquiry is
experiential and cuts the ties of the samskaras to
the personality

____________________________________________________________________

MICHAEL READ

Here's somethnig from the song of the Advadhut.
Chapter 3 verse 33

Though you may be spoken of, you have neither name
nor form. Whether you are divided or undivided,
there's nothing here but you. O mind, O shameless,
wandering, mind! Why do you weary yourself so? I'm
nectarean knowledge, unchanging bliss; I'm
everywhere, like space.

And, from the only truly enlightened being in the
entire universe:

Hey! How ya doing? Uh-oh! Still believing
everything you think?

______________________________________________________________________

GLORIA LEE

THE ONENESS OF THE HUMAN FAMILY

Baha'i: "Blessed is he who preferreth his brother
before himself." -- Baha'u'llah, Tablets of
Baha'u'llah, 71

Buddhism: "Hurt not others in ways that you
yourself would find hurtful." -- Udana-Varga, 5:18

Christianity: "All things whatsoever ye would that
men should do to you, do ye even so to them." --
Jesus, in Matthew 7:12

Confucianism: "Do not unto others what you would
not have them do unto you." -- Analects 15:23

Hinduism: "This is the sum of duty: do naught unto
others which would cause you pain if done to you."
-- Mahabharata 5:1517

Islam: "No one of you is a believer until he
desires for his brother that which he desires for
himself." -- Sunnah

Jainism: "In happiness and suffering, in joy and
grief, we should regard all creatures as we regard
our own self." -- Lord Mahavira, 24th Tirthankara

Judaism: "What is hateful to you, do not to your
fellow man. That is the law: all the rest is
commentary." -- Talmud, Shabbat 31a

Native American: "Respect for all life is the
foundation." -- The Great Law of Peace

Sikhism: "Don't create enmity with anyone as God is
within everyone." -- Guru Arjan Devji 259, Guru
Granth Sahib

Zoroastrianism: "That nature only is good when it
shall not do unto another whatever is not good for
its own self." -- Dadistan-i-Dinik, 94:5

Compiled by the Temple of Understanding, a global
interfaith organization
http://www.silcom.com/~origin/sbcr/sbcr233

______________________________________________________________

ERIC BLACKSTEAD

As Bhagwan Nityananda used to say,"Do what you
like, but never throw anyone out of your heart".

yours in the bonds, eric

__________________________________________________________________

Notes from a Mystic Law Compliance Officer

By Weasel Jones I'm here to set you straight -- you
and all your pantywaist friends who think Buddhism
is about inner revolution, doing your best and
coming to some sort of realization about your life.
That ain't Buddhism. Buddhism ain't Buddhism unless
you're kicking butts and taking names. That's what
I do. I'm a Mystic Law Compliance Officer. I carry
a badge.

Oh, sure, I've seen plenty of dharma bums like you.
You think the Mystic Law is self-enforcing. You
think that the law of cause and effect functions of
its own accord and doesn't need any help from me.
That's where you're wrong, bucko.

{...}

....I was working the Conformity detail out of
Rampart the night the call came through. The lady
said her husband was starting to think for himself.
He was developing an appreciation for the fluidity
and non-dogmatic nature of the dharma. He was
enjoying his Buddhist practice, she said. I'll
never forget the sound of her voice. "Enjoying."

It cut me to the core. It's the kind of thing you
see a lot of in my line of work. But you never get
used to it. It can make a tough guy crack. I've
seen guys go mad.

I grabbed a thick stock of scriptural quotations. I
needed the strongest ones, snipped out of context
and thus made more maneuverable and suitable to my
purposes. I planned to use them as a cudgel, which
is the best way to use any religious text, whether
it's the Bible, the Koran or the Gosho.

My job is not a pretty one.

As I sped to the scene, I reminded myself that I
have security clearance for and access to the
Buddha's true intent. I'm special. I'm not gonna
let some punk challenge me and everything I stand
for. When I showed up at the house, things had
gotten ugly. The suspect was in his bare feet,
sitting on his living room floor with a bunch of
dangerous sympathizers, eating refreshments. They
were engaged in illicit conversation about the most
sacred and secret teachings. Raving lunatics all.

When I flashed my badge and introduced myself, the
suspect menaced me with the following statement:

"I have to find the Buddha within me and within
others. No one can do this for me. So why should I
bow to a religious authority who is -- ultimately
-- arbitrary and impotent?"

His group of pitiful dupes turned their glassy eyes
to me.

(more at:

http://www.buddhajones.com/Articles/ComplianceOfficer.html

___________________________________________________________________

this good letter was received. If anyone in the
area would like to contact this person, write me
for her email address. I've already sent a copy of
the letter to Greg Goode, who is in New York.

jerry
--------------

Hi there, My name is Betty Appelbaum, I'm 37yrs of
age, and live in the Bay Ridge, Brooklyn area of
New York. If you have any sources that would enable
me to make contact with other "nonduality" people
in my area, I would be very interested. Just
discovered youre web-site, fing it very exciting.
Thanks....

GREG GOODE

We had lunch today. She actually works in the same
law firm I do, and we've known each other for
several years - she's very sweet! She's interested
in the spiritual way of looking at things,
beginning to become interested in nondualism. One
of her interests is to meet and talk with more
people interested in the spiritual way of looking
at things.

If anyone lives in the area and would like to get
together, like Bogie said in Casablanca, "This
could be the start of a beautiful friendship."

_______________________________________________________________________

GENE POOLE

Valerie stated, and asked:
 
> yes, but shouldn't those who live in one's heart
> only be allowed to reside there within detachment?
> I mean, what roles do expectations play within our relationships?
> All they lead to is griefs and disappointments.
> agreed?
> so - how does one retain detachment?

> valerie

First, we can create a significant distinction
between 'detachment' and 'non-attachment'.

Detachment is a disconnect, essentially a denial
that there is anything going on.

If something is going on, and you tend to get
hooked and enrolled and embroiled in it, and thus
suffer and regret, as you mention above:

All they lead to is griefs and disappointments.
agreed? so - how does one retain detachment?

Then, the lure of 'detachment' becomes very
attractive, but it is a sop of narcosis, rather
than a true balm of healing.

One should not, in my opinion, aim for detachment,
but instead, for non-attachment.

Non-attachment admits that something is going on;
it admits that I am susceptible, that I am
vulnerable, and that I have more life-experience to
gain, before I can put it on auto-pilot. Maybe, I
can never put it on auto-pilot; maybe, my whole
problem is that I can't get it out of auto-pilot,
and therefor, keep crashing into obstacles that
'weren't supposed to be there'.

Non-atachment rescues me from endless cycles of
self-punishment, and allows every situation to
become part of my ongoing illumination. How this is
so, is by tracking my involuntary reactions, and
moderating them with my learned wisdom. This I call
'abiding'. Eventually, my involuntary reactions
become extinct. I see no goals, no rewards, and
also no punishments. Movement is eventually
minimized; I see that the speed of my play, excites
the game to greater challenge. I allow what I have
learned to guide me, thus to avoid repeating
lessons already experienced.

If I assume that there is some point at which I can
let it all go, I will be irritated, annoyed,
depressed, and even despondent that I am not at
that point 'yet'. This position, one of brash
idealism, causes the continual comparison between
'what is' and 'what should be'. The consequence of
this continual comparison, is a sense of
discontent, a pain, an angst, which serves to drive
me to ever-greater feats of spiritual attainment.

How could I possibly take a rest, how could I
justify just sitting around, doing nothing? And
worse, how could I justify having a thought,
without a concurrent feeling? Shouldn't every
thought, be accompanied by an emotion? What kind of
person has no feelings, no attachments, no opinion,
no preference? Isn't that like brain-death, or
something?

Certainly, we must always strive to the ever-upward
direction, cultivating sensitivity to the higher
vibratory states and realms? I mean, isn't that how
you escape of the hell that life is? Isn't that
what transcendence is for? After all, if I can
sense that something is wrong, shouldn't I strive
to fix it, and to move to make the world a better
place, as well? Isn't that how I avoid 'making more
Karma', too?

The vast disparity of idealism, is the disconnect
of detachment; the world 'isn't real', until I see
it correctly. When I see the world correctly, then,
the world is real, because I am then proved to be
real, by my ability to see what is real, as opposed
to what is illusory. When the scales are removed
from my eyes, by the advent of my own cosmic
purity, only then, will I be able to see and
understand what is real. At least, that is the
idealistic version of things.

lacking idealism, I find no immediacy, but what is
now; even this, is a flux of events, which I
experience as a conversation to which I am witness,
but am not conscious of originating. I can imagine
myself as the creator, but somehow that does not
lend itself to a wholistic experience; I am still
drawn to learning. I am still vulnerable, tender,
and still tend to get hooked. That is why I
practice non-attachment. I do not deny what is, I
do not know what is, but I am at peace with what
is, most of the time.

There are moments when I feel the arising of
discontent, I have conditioned myself to ask myself
just what is really going on. Most of the time, the
answer I get is that I am running a racket, usually
one of either fear and selfishness or idealism. And
each of those camouflages the other; each justifies
the other.

By following myself around, I am able to pick up my
own leavings. As witness, I am aware of when I am
taking a dump on someone, and thus I strive to not
dump, no matter how much the other may seem to
'deserve it'. I understand that once the first turd
is thrown, certain reactions are quite predictable.
Non-attachment allows the turd to be seen as a
neutral entity, rather than as a weapon.

Our reactions portray our assumptions, far more
accurately and honestly than do our professings and
protestations. A person may state high ideals, and
believe thus to have high ideals, but the whole
thing can be a circuitous racket, denial enabling
resentment, resentment fueling incessant
acting-out, and the inevitable reactions of others,
justifying endless cycles of this tail-chasing
fury.

I live on the end of the tip of the tongue of the
Living Universe, a surfer whose balance is his only
grace, hanging ten over the keyboard here , riding
the endless wave, propelled by the momentum of
life, and basically making it up as I go along. It
helps to have a big vocabulary and a bigger
knowledge-base. What distraction can I afford, from
the effect of an unbalanced relationship? Am I so
skilled, powerful and wise, that I can afford to
ignore or deny any facet of my seeming experience?

When I cease depending upon external sources of
'wisdom', do I find or notice grace balance; I
cease seeking formulas for liberation, knowing I do
not have the judgement necessary to know the
difference between liberation and anything else. In
the meantime I abide, but I abide as one who stands
always naked under the downpour of a powerful
waterfall, not sure what to make of the water. I
abide not knowing, and in that state of liberation
from assumption, find that I can understand
something of the language which the Vast Living
Universe is constantly speaking and manifesting,
this conversation known as 'reality' or 'what is'.

Now I give this back, back and out, a
re-transmission of what I hear and observe. I try
to be as accurate as possible in this expression. I
do not see much in the way of creativity going on
in me, just mainly a lot of reassessments and
ongoing modifications of past judgements. It is a
work in progress, but one illuminated by the
intense thousand-petaled lotus which creates my
awareness, a living mandala of form changing in
emptiness, a fluctuation in space. It is the points
which shift the least, which I attend to as guides
to going deeper.

It is the deepest beacons which create the highest
mountains.
 
 

HOW MUCH DO YOU WANT IT?

Valerie,

How much do you want it? For me, this is the prime
question.

How much do you want to be free of this man?
How much do you want to be free of the memories of
this man, and their effect on you?

Let's not talk about yogic abstractions like
discrimination or dispassion. Let's talk about
change and addiction, And how much you want to
change and stop being emotionally addicted.

I don't know you except as a text. Let's call
Valerie a "text with a heart". Now the question is:
How much does a "text with a heart" want to change
it's story?

Only you can answer this question. What I can do is
point out to you that outside of this question, not
much of any of the rest of this matters. If you
haven't built up enough:

regret
ambition
anguish
self hope
or
self disgust
or some other motivating emotion, you're just whistling in the dark.
You can read every religious text, self help manual or "surrender prayer" out
there &
it won't do a thing for you.

How much do you want it?

If you want "it", however you define "it", enough,
then I've got one modest suggestion. All I can tell
you as a former alcoholic (I know, former is
supposed to be a no-no, but why should I lie to
you?) is that it worked for me, and discrimination
and vairagya came along eventually for the ride.

I've just checked with Amazon.com and Handbook to
Higher Consciousness by Ken Keyes is still only
$8.95, ($7.95 for you, kid) brand new. Not bad for
a book that's been an underground hit since 1975.
And (because I like your style) I'm going to allow
as how the same vendor will let you have a 'used'
copy for only (get this) $2.60 (that's right) only
$2.60 (just tell'em I sent ya).

It tore me up to learn a technique that calls
itself the "Living Love Method", and I didn't carry
it around with me out in plain view. Believe it or
not, the paper that the cover's made of actually
seemed to be the same material that the Boy Scout
Manual came in, so it didn't even 'feel' right. I
don't know what a new one is made out of but my
1975 model was built to last, and, unlike other
'handbooks", this one is built to be handled.

Buy it, ( you can't tell me that you can't afford
it ) read it, and then ask yourself, "How much do I
want it?" If you want it enough to train yourself,
and face a little more pain, then you'll be on your
way. It's like AA, if you want it enough, it always
works.

yours in the bonds, eric

Ps. Don't worry about me, I get my commission at
the end of the month.

-------------------------------------------------------

A long time ago I met Hilda Charlton, a teacher
popularized by Ram Dass' writings. A friend asked
about her on the Bhairava site, and in thinking
about my answer, I thought to consult her site (a
commemorative site, as she died some years ago). I
found this, and thought it might be applicable
here. The words are Hilda's. She is speaking of
Bhagavan Nityananda, as well as breath control.

In my own case, as soon as I stood before this
spiritual giant, this mahatma, a change took place.
All outgoing thoughts turned inward, a peace and
bliss was felt, and the mind became calm and quiet.
Not an outward word had been spoken, but the change
in consciousness had taken place within, silently.
He knew everything without talking. I was standing
in front of him and motioned to him that I was
doing pranayama, to get his approval. He nodded
that he understood. Later, I was carrying his book
on yoga, "Chidakash Geetha", and I opened it on a
bus thinking about Swamiji, and it opened to his
answer. There on the page I turned to was, "A yogi
is no yogi who does not have control of his
breath."

When I was writing this article, I went to the
bookcase and took out his book and said aloud to
the air, "Where in your book is that about
breathing?" I just opened the book at random. Yes,
Swamiji still lives and blesses, for I turned to
the following: "Those who do not concentrate on
breath have no aim, no state, no intelligence and
no fulfillment. So, concentrate and think.
Concentrate on indrawing and outgoing
breath...Breathe, concentrating on the sound the
breath produces...Breathe in so that the internal
sound may be audible to the ears."

And in this subtle form, Bhagavan repeated his
former silent diksha of "Soham" to Hilda, not, I
think, to confirm her already consistent practice,
but rather to provide her with this story to tell.
But that's just my opinion.

____________________________________________________________-

GLORIA LEE

Dear Valerie,
 
Become whatever you like...
I think you are already a pretty great person!!
 
Love, Glo
 
********************************
 
Saints Bowing in the Mountains

Do you know how beautiful you are?

I think not, my dear.

For as you talk of God,
I see  great parades with wildly colorful bands
Streaming from your mind and heart,
Carrying wonderful and secret messages
To every corner of this world.

I see saints bowing in the mountains
Hundreds of miles away
To the wonder of sounds
That break into light
From your most common words.

Speak to me of your mother,
Your cousins and your friends.

Tell me of squirrels and birds you know.
Awaken your legion of nightingales -
Let them soar wild and free in the sky.

And begin to sing to God.
Let's all begin to sing to God!

Do you know how beautiful you are?

I think not, my dear,

Yet Hafiz
Could set you upon a Stage
And worship you forever!

____________________________________________________________

JAN SULTAN

Life is a computer game [or movie] with multiple
endings. According to the choices you make you end
up in a different path. So there are choices to be
made at particular junctures or crossroads but
after the choice has been made you have to act your
part according to script and plot.

You have another choice, however. To refuse to play
any more. This is partly like the game of hide and
seek. God or your 'Real Self' hides and you seek.
If you manage to find, the game is over. Or
alternatively you could refuse to play by keeping
the mind blank as much as possible. This too has
worked for many people. The blank mind results in a
slow lifting of the veil or spell and you see the
Reality. Another tactic is to play hard until you
tire of it all [remember Shakespeare's 'Surfeit']
and the vacuum thus produced in time sucks in the
Reality.

Whatever you do, whatever your plot or story line
has you believing as being the right path. Keep in
mind one thing. Don't take things too seriously.
Its all a game. The joke is on you and the joker,
who did it to you, is also you!

____________________________________________________________

MICHAEL GALAHAD

"It (tao) can not be defined and as it can not be
defined, so too can it not be defended. There is no
moving ahead. Where I am from is a map to here.
Where to next? No knowing. Get that?" tsh

Continuation of this thought:

Thus, we must understand that the 'mechanism of
reason' is wrongly applied to the past to make a
feeble attempt to give reason to why I am here at
'this point' from 'that past'.

Further, we use 'divination' technics of all sorts
to skip what is tomorrow towards something that is
too far ahead.

This is why we are doomed to repeat our mistakes
over and over again. We fail to see the things 'in
front of our noses'. This is the cycle of death and
re-birth on scale from the smallest violations of
the eightfold (nine: 'right judgement' as Jesus
contribution) path to the greatest violations of
ego and, ultimately, the 'illusion of death and
body'.

The weak rise against the strong (yin to the yang)
and, in time, defeat the strong, thus becoming the
strong and the next target for the new weak (yang
to the yin).

Do not hate your 'enemy' or you shall become your
enemy. This is the blindness that cycles. Leave
your 'enemies' to their own devices. Yes... you are
correct. This is a much slower road but then,
consider, where are you going and who will be
waiting to take your head when you get there? No
one if you take your time.

We seek the past as if it holds the key to the
future. It does not. The future that approaches is
a karmic reaction and release of what is being done
in the past. A tight loop of 'none and two' giving
an illusion of three. Yesterday, Today, and
Tomorrow.

'Make reason of what is becoming' and the path...
'your path'... will reveil itself. The only way out
is through the self which, to now, has been defined
by all other things.

In other words, you do not know who you are because
you do not know where you are going (although I'd
bet you know where you would like to go) not
because you lack the 'God identity (I AM) source'
<we all have that> but rather becuase you lack a
direction. It is behind you.

Jesus Christ

Gentle Peace.

   o
-- hobbes; 0,0,0,0:00.00 Nao

_______________________________________________________________________

JODY R

> So the mistake you are making is thinking that the samkaras of Ramana
> are Ramana, kind of like thinking a hologram is the same as the
> original if you will, not an perfect analogy but a help for thinking.

Ramana, like every other being, is Brahman.
However, Ramana, like every other person, had a
locus of expression that we could call a
personality. He may have totally transcended it and
was not identified with it at all, but it certainly
existed. If it did not, he wouldn't have been much
more than a lump of quivering flesh.

When speaking of Ramana, all we have is his
existence as a personality. If we say he was the
Self, that is true. However, that is true for us
all, regardless of our status as realized.

The only difference between Ramana and the rest of
us was that he was realized, while only some of us
are. Perhaps he didn't think of himself as an
individual, but he certainly operated as one. When
a beloved devotee approached him, he expressed love
for them, just as we would for a beloved friend.

The point is that whether one is a jivanmukta or an
aspirant, there continues to exist a locus of
individuality from which we operate. We may have
completely transcended it, and are not identified
with it anymore, but as long as we are in a body,
this particular collection of samskaras (which is
what I'm calling the mind) is how the jivanmukta
lives, breathes and communicates with his/her
fellow non-existent beings.

VALERIE

is it okay - do people think - if the message works
for a person - can we just use the message and NOT
shoot the golly durned messager?

is it totally neccessary to join in the cult and
inspect and analyze and devote oneself entirely to
a GURU - lock stock and barrel - just to adapt his
teaching(s) - whether plagarized or not? what is
the benefit of that, as opposed to just collecting
the tidbits of wisdom from hither and yon as one
skips merrily along one's own path?

________________________________________________________________

JEANNIE HORN

----------------------

WIND

earth turns to dust
dust to wind
twisting, turning
life in a spin

touching nothing
holding not
letting go
never caught

twisting, swirling
love on fire
burning in the
wind of no desire
flickering in and out
of time
i am the wind
and the sky is mine.

--------------------------

Awakening

within the tower of my making
walls stand firm and tall
until a light was seen
a glow that was bright
and as my soul sang to me
she called me forth
and thunder rolled
and tower fell
the wall came tumbling down

i stand alone at this new place
until i see a face, a form
out of the sky of clouds and blue
created here for me, for you

with love and joy
it opened my heart
to all that i did fear
and with a kiss of mystery
it flowed back into me

free now from walls and towers,
free to roam the world of mine
i am the beauty i feared the most
the love that is, the joy that's me
i am free as wind and sea
and so my friend are thee

_______________________________________________________________

GLORIE LEE

Get the Blame Straight

Understanding the physics of God,
His Indivisible Nature,

Makes every universe and atom confess:

I am just a helpless puppet that cannot dance
Without the movement of His hand.

Dear ones, This curriculum tonight is for the
advanced And will

Get all the blame straight,

End the mental

Lawsuits

That

Clog

The

Brain -

H a l l e l u j a h

Baby!

("The Gift" - versions of Hafiz by Daniel Ladinsky)

______________________________________________________________

JAN SULTAN

Just Be! In the Now! That is all that is required.

Don't let your thoughts wander into the past or
into the future. Nor into day dreams or worries.
Pull back your mind into the now. Let your thoughts
come and go. But do not let them start forming
associations and pulling you hither and thither.
Don't even ask yourself who you are. You are there
in the now. You only get lost in thoughts. Use
mindfulness throughout the day to stay in the now.

Just accept whatever you find in the now. Don't try
to change it, improve it, or resist it. The world
is as God intended it to be. Who are we to complain
or daydream about putting things straight. It
cannot be done, just accept it.

It is as simple as that. Just Be! In the Now!

______________________________________________________________________

MICHAEL GALAHAD

black and white
hunting wild cat and racing grey hound
kids parading and masquerading
penny whistles and melodies
sweet fragrance is 'one' and incense
christmas and Inca ruins
faith and belief
goals and dreams
understanding and realization
gardens, trails, and homesteads
teaching children at home, living, and experience
patience and compassion
time to breathe and room to think

a question from the silence of my solitude
my place of peace and suffering
that protects
from the imaginations of desire
and the promise of fulfillment
that hurts when it speaks
while letting go the name of love
knowing you may return to be mine
and praying against hope
that you are safe
in fear of knowing
that I may not interfere
unless you ask
for which I must direct you to another
and pray for a return

the directions we are from to here
and the me you may never know
and yet, of these,
you know me best
now, and forever,
as you wish,
if you wish
these words,
may never be known
yet spoken
may never be lost
like trees that mark
but one way home

JERRY

several new names in my Live Journal box on the
home of page of <http://www.nonduality.com>

these people tend to write about nondual stuff.

i really like the Live Journal concept and format.

everyone has their own style and look.

an email list is like everyone swimming in the
ocean together. Live Journal is like private
cabanas on the beach, where people come and go, and
visit each other.

the site is run by a 21 year old college kid. he
gets up to 60,000 hits a second and often his
servers are down for maintenance. but it's all
worth watching what he's doing. His focus is work
and not soaking his users for money or bothering
them with ads.

--------------------------------

if you're in the Santa Barbara area, give richard a
shout:

name=Richard email=flynbuddha@... Your
Location=Santa Barbara text=Interested in all
nondualistic teachings Advaita Zen unknown unnamed

______________________________________________________________

DAVE OSHANA

I am writing an article "awakening vs
enlightenment". Does anyone feel that these two
terms are/not clearly distinguished in advaita
circles?

GREG GOODE

Which advaita circles are you referring to? There
are several. Sometimes the terms are used
interchangeably, other times a distinction is
drawn. Even the single term "enlightenment" is used
in 15 different ways by any 10 people. One can hear
meanings ranging from relief from neuroses all the
way to the explosive and irreversible experience
that nothing other awareness ever was. All over the
map!

Good luck!

JERRY KATZ

It seems that people talk about 'an awakening', as
though there could many awakenings. 'Enlightenment'
conveys a finality. The terms are interchangeable,
though it seems more likely that someone would
refer to 'an awakening' than they would refer to
'an enlightenment'. However, these are my
impressions and not the result of any scientific
study!

_______________________________________________________________

SU GANDOLF

Everything is green in heaven. I don't know why,
but it's true. Grass, trees, leaves, bugs, clothing
(when we wear clothing), and your eyes...

___________________________________________________________________

GLORIE LEE

PLEASE

We are at
The Nile's end.

We are carrying particles
From every continent,
creature, and age.

It has been raining on the plains
Of our vision for
millions of years

And our senses
Are so muddy compared to Yours -
dear God.

But I only hear these words from you
Where we are
all trying to embrace
The Clear Sky-Ocean,

"Dear one, come.

Please, My dear ones, Come."

("The Gift" - versions of Hafiz by Daniel Ladinsky)

_________________________________________________________________

MICHAEL GALAHAD

In these groups I find the best friends that I may
never know.

How much heaven? The required amount.

Where then do I apply my protection or, more
generally, aggressive nature? I have fought the
'gods' for the way back to here to prepare the way
for those gentle, precious things that are yet to
come.

Enlightenment is like a dream that one can not wait
to get home to.

Hate is not contained or defined by a color but if
captured by the mind, it is colorless, odorless,
and lethal.

The darker the light, the brighter the flame that
remains. The blacker the night, from further it may
be seen.

Would you give your life for aWay?

Like a ring, I have surrounded you and you me. Nao.
Take your time.

---

To the JOKES in charge and the COWARDS and
PUPPETEERS that run their asses:

Your persecution and explotation of innocence is
coming to a very dark knight and in 'that end' your
head shall be destroyed, your heart left cold and
incapable of love and your need left right will be
overwhelming... how do I know?

This is the prison in which I was wrongfully placed
as a sacrificed pawn to another's game. I have
fought my way back from there and, in doing so,
have sealed that door forever. How? All those that
enter this place, this space that is my own, my
self in body and mind is the holy temple of the
risen king and it is here that you shall toil
solving my every internal struggle and argument
until I am satafied and at peace. And then,
perhaps, you 'may' be released. Your in... find
your own fucking way out.

If you claim to have the skills to build a 'heaven'
around a single life then it seems that all things
should therefore equal and attainable. If not, then
you have choosen unwisely. But then, it was the 0=1
choice, that tricked you into missing 'what is
warmth' is not what is strategic... ooppsss to you.

Passion creates blind spots. Are you passionate
about power? All the power in the universe is
meaningless (doesn't exist and never did. Power is
a creation of the mind. Now why do you think that
petty men and women can never comprehend God?
Simple eh?) if you don't have the strength to move
it...

The political leaders (especially Bush and Chretian
<pst... I have seen your future and those of your
associates... take your time.>) of this cursed
world... your 'retirement' vs. my future. That is
all that remains to be decided. Nao. Still think
it's a joke? They all-ways do until they get here
to Krishna (not the hare hare kind). As I tell my
boy 'Joel' (Arjuna), it is never going to happen to
you until it does and then it is too late. How
close are you? Look at it this way... there is no
'missle shield' to protect you from the karma that
is headed your direction.

Global revitalization and energy alternative
technologies 'not' the continued desecration of our
sacred mother. All countries that defy this order
shall be held accounatable (and given no chance of
time off for subsequent acts of good behavior)
before my throne and accountable for everything you
do including the burdening of the karma created by
those that you have stricken the masses with
blindness and an eternity of labourous servitude
shall be your lot.

Does it sound like an altimatum? You are right. Or
else what? Exactly. God knows what and ensures that
you will never know.

---

tewangel -- is it you? Please. Be gentle. We have
waited too long for someone just like you as you
are and with what you bring. Do not hurt us. We can
see that you belong. Sensuality is the sight and
what is needed to get the job done.

>From the 'origin-desk' of the
'chair-man' of the bored,

God

<for real>

Jesus Christ

<is fact>

Tim Harris

<Tao>

first in; last out

Someone owes me a poncho liner.


    o
-- hobbes; 0,0,0,0:00.00 Nao

The process of 'thinking' is a comparison/negation
of what you do not know as it relates to what you
do know creating a natural erosion of the purity of
the moment.

DAVE OSHANA

I am writing an article "awakening vs
enlightenment". Does anyone feel that these two
terms are/not clearly distinguished in advaita
circles?

TONY O'CLERY

Namaste All,

I like the sanskrit moksha........moha
kshya......delusion destroyed. Inferring that
duality is an illusion that's all.

An awakening can mean, intellectually realising
non-duality without true realisation or
moksha.......ONS....Tony.

JODY

The intellectual realization of nonduality does not
exist except in the heads of those infected with
NonDualThink™ brand delusion.

...

I'd say that realization comes, enlightenment
follows.

That is, one can come to jnana and know him/herself
as the Self, yet still operate with a locus of
individual identification, due to remaining karmas.
As these karmas expend themselves (and the
individual works through his/ her remaining issues)
the state of enlightenment (no individual left to
identify with) steadily manifests.

MICHAEL READ

fourth and 10

awakening lines up for a field goal if
enlightenment blocks, the game is over!

and the crowd goes wild!

JAMES TRAVERSE

The self evident answer to your qestion is - these
terms are not clearly defined - hence the need to
ask. So, one of the challenges for you is to
provide some clarity in your article.

I use the term 'realization' and define it as: to
'make real' the ultimate human potential.

I also use the term 'OneDuality' - more on this on
my web page http://www.beingyoga.com/ArtofYoga - if
you wish to use any of the material from there
please let me know.

DIANA

Excuse a humble novice here: What happened to
Mystery? How can you all go on debating through
your mentation, and scriptures, that which is by
definition unknowable to the conscious mind?

______________________________________________________________________

SU GANDOLF

I am posting this query a propos of a conversation
on HarshaSatsangh about spontaneous *yawning*. I
know there is a lot of crossover of personnel on
the two lists, so I am posting here, where I can
see the people apart from all the truth-seeking in
texts and dogma (good luck!) Just don't really want
to get started posting on another list...

So, anyway, there was a period when I was a
kid/adolescent (not sure at exactly what age(s))
where, every Sunday during mass, I would get the
*hiccups*. I started to realize it was happening,
and would just watch it happen, every week, week
after week. I don't know how long this went
on--don't have that kind of a memory--but I know it
happened over quite some period of time.

Has anyone else experienced anything like this? Any
NDS-armchair theories on what was going on? (I'm
pretty sure I wasn't drinking too much of that
sickly-sweet wine, er, blood, on Sunday
mornings...)

GENE POOLE

"Spontaneous yawning" can be a natural defense
against hypnosis.

In hypnosis phenomena, imposed 'sleep' equals the
disposal of the 'ego' as a viable factor of the
psyche. It is this way in 'natural sleep', but
hypnosis requires 'trance' in which 'ego' is
decommissioned.

If those requirements are met, the voice of the
hypnotist literally 'becomes' the 'inner voice' of
the hypnotized one.

Preachers and other propagandists use hypnotic
technique to subdue ego, then to implant their
voices/values into those entranced.

I have witnessed this 'spiritually motivated' style
of trance-induction on several occasions, the most
blatant example was during a 'free introduction to
Ananda Marga'. In this scenario, one Swami by
speaking, put at least 100 people 'under' in less
than 3 minutes. Understand, that hypnosis was NOT
mentioned or advertised as being a 'feature' of the
evening presentation.

His support staff were absolutely enraged, when I
stood from my seat and walked to the door, but they
could not utter a sound, lest they break the
trance.

Obligingly, I clapped 3 times before I left the
building; the 'audience' of sleepers jerked awake,
completely startled by the sudden change of
positions of the staff and me. The majority of the
audience left the building shortly after I left;
the presenters were (it seemed to me!) 'murderously
angry' with me for blowing their scene.

Many people who 'lay a trip' on others, use
hypnosis as a natural talent. Yawning in those
circumstances, is a reaction which can not only
forestall falling into trance, but also conveys
disinterest in the proffered 'ideas'.

Have you been hypnotized lately?

Gene Pool

PS: I used my learned 'anti-trance' talents in
another 'spiritual presentation', this one several
years later. It was the 'free workshop on
ascension' presented by the infamous 'Bo and Peep',
who later drained an Oregon town of most
inhabitants, who were then sent to wait for the
'mothership' in a remote desert location.

'Bo' was later featured as Applewhite, the insane
leader of the 'Heaven's Gate' suicide cult.

My actions during the presentation resulted in the
exit of most of the audience of about 40 people.
'Bo' was furious, but his 'spiritual facade'
required that he not act-out his rage against me.




________________________________________________________________________

MICHAEL READ

I permeate everything without thought.
All thought arise in me expressing my creation.
I am single, one, individual - all pervading.
No one, be they great or small, thinks lest I think.
No one, be they infant or adult, moves lest I move.

I am each one, separate yet not-separate.
The murderer, I am that one.
The saint, I am that one.
The drunkard too am I.
The realized and the ignorant am I.

When you see me, you see yourself.
It is simple so simple and so vastly complex.

If I tell you it is full (it is), you try to empty it.
If I tell you it is empty (it is), you try to fill it.

There is no you or I - there is only you and I.
How rare the character that understands this
not as duality nor as non-duality.

You are the infinite made flesh - do be involved and
enjoy life!

Love, at play in the fields of eternity - Michael

___________________________________________________________________

GARY MERRILL

Dear God,

God sleeps;
God wakes up;
God identifies as me and you;
God is endarkened;
God is enlightened;
God is;
God is not;
God cries;
God laughs;
God thinks;
God lives;
God dies;
God talks to himself;

best wishes,
God

______________________________________________________________________

PAUL

THE 12 STEPS OF HUMANS ANONYMOUS

How do I renounce my ego?

1. We admitted that we were powerless over our
egos, that our lives had always been unmanageable.

(As long as we identify with ego, ego will
interpret our attempts to renounce it as killing
"ourselves"). To prevent its "death" ego will try
to convince us that it can "fix itself". Ego can
never "fix itself" to the point of being able to
produce love/sanity, because love does not come
from ego. Love must come from a source other than
the body, mind or personality.

2. Came to believe that a power greater than
ourselves could lead us to sanity.

THE HIGHER POWER IS PURE EXPERIENCE.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives
over to the care of God as we understood God.

(now we have to figure out what it is we are
TURNING OVER)

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of
ourselves as ego- dominated creatures. (facing
ourselves)

we are working on attaining humility... a setting
aside of our arrogant lies:

a. that we know what we are doing b. that we are
satisfied with the way we are c. that we don't need
help from anyone.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another
human being the exact nature of our ego-dominated
behavior.

6. Were entireley ready for God to replace our egos
as the director of our lives.

This step is the Main Event. If, after taking this
step, we do not have the undeniable experience of
the presence of God (the experience of the
liberation from ego-identity), it simply means that
we did not really take the step (we did not take it
with true humility, which means we did not
relinquish our egos... we need to go back and tell
more truth.

7. Humbly asked God to assume full control of our
lives.

8. Having had a spiritual awakening, we became
ready to make amends for our ego-dominated
behavior. Made a list of all persons we had harmed,
and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people whenever
possible except when to do so would injure them or
others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory, and when
we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve
our conscious contact with God as we understood
God, praying only for God's will for us, and the
power to carry that out.

If we are not living in the experience of love, we
are not living in the experience of God, we are
living under ego-domination... It is just that
simple!

The responsibility which accompanies our awakening
is twofold:

1. to share our awakening with those who still
slumber in their pain

2. to never delude ourselves that we are in any way
superior to them.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result
of these steps, we tried to carry this message to
ego-dominated human beings, and to preactice these
principles in all our affairs.
 

_______________________________________________________________________

JAN BARENDRECHT
 
    "Excuse a humble novice here: What happened to
Mystery? How can you all go on debating through
your mentation, and scriptures, that which is by
definition unknowable to the conscious mind?"
--Diana
 
    The Mystery is supposed to unfold after
apperception: simply put, the mind-body will be
'adjusted' in such a way that everything perceived
is the Self, that there is nothing but the 'real
nature'. That 'adjustment' is the 'result' of
Shakti.
 
    With the "proper" mindset, the 'adjustment'
could be called a 'journey' of love, light and
laughter.
 
 

-------------

Paul wrote:
>This group was started a while ago, but never was promoted.  If you'd
>like to join, click on the link below.  It might be a good way to
>explore freedom.  Its new, so we don't know how it will work here on
>the net.

>HumansAnonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their
>experience strength and hope with each other that they may solve
>their common problem and help others to recover from ego domination.

>The only requirement for membership is a desire to be free from ego
>domination.

JAN B.:
    Free from such a desire, i could not possibly
join :) Apart from that, i had a good laugh,
wondering what could be dominated by 'ego'.
 
    In a 'childhood proper' (awakened parents), the
child learns to put unconditional faith in the
parents. Doing that is a risk, a pet also takes, by
being vulnerable. Taking that risk could be called
'basic function' of Love and knowing that is
essential for both growing up as a harmonious human
being AND awakening. That is what unconditional
surrender is about.
 
    From that perspective, 'chasing the baddy
called ego' is but the proverbial dog chasing its
tail. All systems and methods can only partially
repair the damage, done by 'wrong' (read loveless)
upbringing. Combine that with 'suppressive' methods
like forced celibacy and the picture will be clear.
 
__________________________________________________________________
 
JOHN METZGER
 
    What is a saint? A saint is someone who has
achieved a remote human possibility. It is
impossible to say what that possibility is. I think
it has something to do with the energy of love.
Contact with this energy results in the exercise of
a kind of balance in the chaos of existence. A
saint does not dissolve the chaos; if he did the
world would have changed long ago. I do not think
that a saint dissolves the chaos even for himself,
for there is something arrogant and warlike in the
notion of a man setting the universe in order. It
is a kind of balance that is his glory. He rides
the drifts like an escaped ski. His course is the
caress of the hill. His track is a drawing of the
snow in a moment of its particular arrangement with
wind and rock. Something in him so loves the world
that he gives himself to the laws of gravity and
chance. Far from flying with the angels, he traces
with the fidelity of a seismograph needle the state
of the solid bloody landscape. His house is
dangerous and finite, but he is at home in the
world. He can love the shape of human beings, the
fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to
have among us such men, such balancing monsters of
love.
 
    - L. Cohen, Beautiful Losers (1966)

___________________________________________________________________

MELODY

Gene Poole wrote:
> In hypnosis phenomena, imposed 'sleep' equals the disposal of the
'ego' as
> a viable factor of the psyche. It is this way in 'natural sleep',
but hypnosis
> requires 'trance' in which 'ego' is decommissioned.
 

It has not been my experience that ego is decommissioned in
a trance state.

Rather, it is more as if the ego agrees to simply 'sit back
and watch'.........to allow the experience to unfold.  However,
time and time again, I have found that the ego does re-assert
itself when it senses danger.

Twice while in a trance state, my ego has stepped in
and ended the session......once, while in a very deep
trance, when the hypnotist began 'sculpting' a very
sexually charged scenario.

As a hypnotherapist, I have witnessed this ego-assertion
many times in clients.....when the client is 'looking at'
hidden or denied aspects of the psyche.  The ego knows
when "enough is enough", and the client may simply 'open
their eyes'... or, most usually,  begin to shift about until the
trance is broken.
 

Gene Poole:
> If those requirements are met, the voice of the hypnotist literally
'becomes'
> the 'inner voice' of the hypnotized one.

It is much like that.

In a trance state the hypnotized one no longer makes a distinction
between oneself and the hypnotist.  For those moments, they
are 'one'.....the hypnotist's voice becomes 'my' voice.....what
a hypnotist sees,  'I' see....what a hypnotist says,  "I" am saying.

But a lot is written about hypnosis and trance....as if it is an evil
to
be avoided.  And while I agree that abuses do, and have occurred,
the opportunitys for expanding awareness thru trance experience
is so great, I feel compelled to offer another perspective on
hypnosis and trance.

I was fortunate to be trained in what is referred to as
a 'client centered' approach to hypnotherapy....which
says that it is the client who has the answers and
solutions they seek....and it is the client....not the
therapist... who knows the 'way'.  And that it is
simply the fascilitator's task to simply bring that
inner-knowing to the client's  awareness.

The hardest part of my job was always
remembering to 'get out of the way'
of the clients experience......to not contaminate
it with my sense of what 'should' happen....and
not to try to 'figure things out'....but to simply
walk alongside them as helper...as one who
helps the experiencer to open to....to 'notice'
what is unfolding for them to see.

Hypnotherapy was, for me, a training ground
to 'awakening' -  it was a practice in abiding...
of dropping any and all self-referencing
thoughts.....and surrendering to whatever
unfolds.

I'm thinking of how many times people would
come to these sessions as atheists or agnostics,
and leave in a sense of awe.....seeing that there
is 'That' which is so much more than 'me'...more than.
my sense of 'me'.....

even if 'That' is known to them as simply the
Unconscious.