Inspired by 18 young people whose lives were taken by Arab
stupidity at a local Tel Aviv disco tech yesterday.

~~~~~~ What good does it do to pledge allegiance to a culture
or religion,bow and prostrate and say that God is great all
the while snuffing out his life from young kids bodies.?The
insanity of religious cultural,neighborhood,country
allegiances perpetuates murder.No ritual,No shabbats,no
shaloms,no Salomes or uttering nonsense about Allah is
great.No talk of nonduality will do any good if it is just
talk. No I am a muslim,Iam an Arab or I am a Jew or I am a
Christian or Kokopelli corn planter.. or this is my land wha
wha wha will do any good unless there is some awareness that
we all deficate the same,hurt the same,laugh the same,all
have children who smile and cry,love their friends,like to
play....We all want to be loved and we all want the chance to
love..Why do we do these horrible things..Who is teaching
these Arab knuckle heads that they are doing something
wonderful and godly by killing themselves in suicide bombings
along with innocent people?.Do arab religious teachers really
teach these idiots that they are doing something wonderful by
killing jewish kids at disco techs or shooting people from
hillsides as they drive their cars by on roads below?..Such a
strange parodox..I swore I heard beuatiful sounds coming out
of mosques where men were singing and praying.I wonder if
they were praying from the heart?I wonder if they know what
this means?Is it possible that these people could have been
praying that these kids would die while sittng there
praying?How many jews sit around and do the Shabbat thing and
wish to see arab heads roll down the road and how many
christians wish to see everyone who doesnt utter the name
Jesus like hes the candy man desire not only to see ya all
drop off into the great eternal hell fire and how many of
these knuckle heads realize you have to jump off into hell in
order to get to heaven?

Insanity isnt it? Sort of reminds me of times of wanting to
embrace all of humanity only to see my child come home from
sunday school with books about the wonderful christians who
come to America to teach the American indians about the
wonderful salvation of Jesus only to come to annihilate the
majority of the species and then put the rest of them in
barren land calling it all "indian reservations"

People,need to come up to a higher level of understanding and
shed their baby clothes and put on adult clothes..Give up the
milk and take on some meat.. Geez no wonder the net is full
of people wishing aliens will come and pick them up and take
them away on some blazing blissful U.F.O..Come on kids lets
grow up! Israel -Jewish and Arab hear me; Oh Hear oh Israel
our Lord God is ONE. Stand naked.......shed your clothes of
greed,hatred and ignorance and put on the clothes of high
Shabbat and prostrations of Allah Akbar and take on the
helmet of salvation through self knowledge through high
contemplation-prayer of the heart.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From
"Essential Ken Wilber" Simply begin your practice of course
five,six years will go by in a blink but you will begin to
reap abundant rewards. No amount of person centered Civil
Religion will deliver you from yourself,Rather,you must take
up a Contemplative,transpersonal,supramental practice,So no
matter how daunting practice seems,simply begin.As the old
joke has it:How do you eat an Elephant? One bite at a time.
And the fact is, afew bites into the elephant and you will
already start gaining the benefits.You might begin say twenty
minutes of centering prayer as taught by Father Thomas
Keating.Many people report almost immediate
effects-----calming,opening,caring,listening;then heart melts
a little bit and so do you.Zikr for a half hour;Vippasana for
forty minutes,yoga exercises twice a day,worked into your
schedule,tantric visualization;prayer of the heart;counting
your breaths for 15 each morning before you get out of
bed.Any of those are fine,what ever works for you,just take
the first bites.... We need to be gentle with ourselves,it is
true,but we also need to be firm. Treat yourselves with real
compassion,and therefore begin to challenge yourselves,engage
your self,push yourself:begin to practice.

As any of these practices start to tak hold,you might find it
appropriate to attend an intensive retreat for a few days
each year.This will give you a chance to extend the little
'peeks' of practice into the beginning plateaus of
practice.The years will go by,yes,but you will be ripening
along with them,slowly but surely transcending the lesser
aspects of your self,and opening to the greater.There will
come a day when you will look back on all that time as if it
were a dream,because in fact it is a dream,from which you
will soon awaken. The point is simple:If you are interested
in genuine transformative spirituality,find an authentic
spiritual teacher and begin practice.With out practice,you
will never move beyond the phases of belief,faith ,and random
peak experiences.You will never evolve into plateau
experiences,nor from there into permenent adaptation.You will
remain,at best, a brief visitor in the territory of your own
higher estate,a tourist in your own true Self. [One
Taste;december 30] Ken Wilber from 'Essential Ken Wilber"

------------------------------

GARY MERRILL

I understand your sentiments and outrage at the 'madness'
that goes on in the world but would ask that we look at the
cause of this madness before offering a solution (Ken Wilbers
or anyone else's).

For me a cause, if not the cause, of this violence is
division. Division which divides Jew from Christian, 'me'
from 'you', the division which permeates consciousness as a
knowing of self and other, subject and object. Like a vicious
circle the 'Jew' and 'Christian' find security in having this
identity, a tradition, a past and a future which further this
division.

Dualism is the objective breaking up of the world, analysis
of the whole into pieces like a machine. The 'controler' then
controls the 'machine'. Non-dualism does not have this
objective form and does not try to fix what is not broken.
One rather points out the unbroken wholeness that has always
been there and which is no ones property.

The reaction to a 'mad world' is to try and make a better
one. But isn't that just what 'Jews', 'Christians' and 'Ken
Wilber' is trying to do? And in so doing perpetuating the
division between us and them, the ones holding Gods hand and
the Infidels! I don't know if Mr Wilber calls himself a
'non-dualist' but it seems the same game to me. Someone has a
small experience and want's a bigger 'God experience' and
tells people what to do. It's completely corrupt!! I speak
for the ordinary man who doesn't divide into lower and higher
self, sacred and profane but asks only that Brotherhood be
recognised and false self identities be dropped as the
problem not the solution.

Love and regards, Gary.

-------------------------------

PAUL COTE

The ordinary man does not knowingly depend on God. He
believes his life is manageable. He believes he can take care
of everything himself. Ego-centric, he has not realized his
oneness with God. He has no need to meditate. After all, he
pretends his life is manageable... ok..., the same as
everyone elses, a life of quiet desparation. He does not seek
liberation because he does not have a clue about what nectar
he is missing, or perhaps the pain of the results of his
egocentric activity has not yet driven him to seek for
freedom.

The Seeker through meditation, prayer, sacrifice of personal
will, and perhaps some suffering, is losing his
self-centeredness, and attaining some humility.. by
meditating on God as all, and surrendering to the ONE who has
all power--depending on Him. In a God-centered man, enough of
his self centeredness has been cleared for God's love to
shine in his heart.

Both the ordinary man and God-Centered man are one with God
because God is One. The God-Centered man realizes his inner
self, the bliss of Love, while the ordinary mans heart is
choked with pride.

Meditation is to clear the self-centered thinking, to calm
the mind, to surrender to God; so the love in the heart can
be experienced.

________________________________________________________________________________

JAN BARENDRECHT

Photo and Poem:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NondualitySalon/message/55822

______________________________________________________________________________

JERRY KATZ

SEEN ON THE ROAD

Spirituality

is like endless billboards

in the desert

announcing a desert

up ahead

without billboards

Burma Shave

____________________________________________________________________________

GLORIA LEE AND JAN BARENDRECHT

Gloria: The whole problem with the world is that fools and
fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser
people so full of doubts. --Bertrand Russell

Jan: That evokes the question, why accept a division like
fools, fanatics and wise, as if man didn't succeed in
creating enough division already - not just religious...
Erroneous upbringing and education causes one to see: a tree
as "tree plus preconceived notions like tiny/tall" instead of
just "tree" (with properties) a dog as "dog plus preconceived
notions like cute/ferocious" instead of just "dog" (with
properties) a building as "building plus preconceived notions
like beautiful/ugly" instead of just "building" (with
properties) etc. etc. etc. And the problem is, once the
preconceived notions installed, they are defined as "right"
by the non-existent owner ("owner", another preconceived
notion), for whom they have become "holy cows"...

Gloria: Dear Jan,

Your point is well taken, as usual. But what is a "holy cow"
if not the very certainty of "beliefs" and preconceived
notions that you deplore here? And, are you not right here
showing your own resistance to being "led down the garden
path" by another's ideas and notions?? You are not gullible,
nor subject to being easily fooled.. the usual prey of the
fanatics ARE. But why? Isn't their very craving for certainty
(and one's own self-doubt) what makes someone so willing to
believe and follow those "others" who do seem so sure of what
is right and truth?

Maybe this is why Buddha encouraged his followers to not
believe anything on another's authority, even Buddha himself,
but to find out for themselves.

Would that we could all see "just what is" as it is, as you
describe here. Doubt can be the wisdom that opens a window to
resist the group consenus taught and see what it really is
afresh.

Love, Gloria

________________________________________________________________________

ANDREW MACNAB

Paul Cote wrote: <snip> I always thought Advaita was just a
term for Vedanta. What is the Dual philosophy?
 

There is Dvaita Vedanta (Tattvavâda);

"The difference between the jîva (soul) and Îshvara
(Creator), and the difference between jaDa (insentient) and
Îshvara; and the difference between various jîvas, and the
difference between jaDa and jîva; and the difference between
various jaDas, these five differences make up the universe."

http://www.dvaita.org/index.shtml

...Let all the would-be enlightened
ones step forth! I, for one, am too shy.

Jerry

________________________________________________________________________



Posted by Gill:

To have patience, to have confidence, we must see an object before us.
We can have confidence in obtaining any material object.
It is much more  difficult to have patience where there is nothing to
show - only the satisfaction of the soul; to have patience enough to acquire
virtue, to merge in the illumination, to gain the light.
     It is the same with fire: at first there is smoke mixed with it and, if
it had no patience until it would become a flame, there would only be
smoke and then it would go out. If it has patience it will become a
flame that illumines the whole room so that everything can be seen and
known.
    More than all else this patience is the greatest gift and blessing.

                      Hazrat Inayat Khan

________________________________________________________________________


Once named as "this" or "not-this", it
     has been falsely indicated in relation.

To know it is to be it.  To be
    it is not to be it.

One's body doesn't have a location
     or a word.

Dan


________________________________________________________________________




NDS

Proposal: That NDS can be used as a means of refining concepts and
definitions having to do with nonduality; that this can be done
cooperatively and productively; and that those who wish to
participate wholly or in part in that endeavor, may do so as they
wish.

Further: That Jerry and anyone else so inclined, make an effort to
compile the resultant information into what could be considered to be
a 'modern relational database of topics related to nonduality'.

Goal: To cast a wide net, to capture modern terms and concepts, to
relate such to ancient and traditional ideas, thus to eventually have
access to all logically associated ideas concerning nonduality, in a
form which is either a carefully organized text file, or an actual
relational database, or both.

Eventually, this information could be published on paper and web, as
an aid to those who have need of such a refined body of opinions.

A skillfully compiled hyperlinked version of the text file would be
useful, not only as a web resource, but as a standalone document as
well.

An excellent working example can be found here:

<http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/DEFAULT.html>

Click on 'project organization' to view an example of a topically
driven page of hyperlinks.


Opinions solicited...

==Gene Poole==


________________________________________________________________________


This is mental mumbo jumbo. All that is being
said is that the solution is the problem. That is
still a division.
The mind cannot come up with its own solution.

What we have to contribute is in our heart and it is
free of mental mumbo jumbo.

Marcia

________________________________________________________________________

bright ones, eternal one, know this well

you alone exist!

--cee
______________________________________________________________________

Andrew Macnab

...Turning the light
               to shine within,
               turn it around again.

               Vast,
               unthinkable,
               you can’t face it
               or turn away from it.

               The root of it.

               Meet the Awakened Ancestors,
               become intimate with the teachings,
               lash grass into thatch for a hut
               and don’t tire so easily.

               Let it go,
               release,
               and your life of a hundred years
               vanishes.

               Open your hands.

               Walk around.

               Innocence.

               The swarm of words,
               and little stories
               are just to loosen you
               from where you are stuck.

               If you want to know
               the one in the hermitage
               who never dies,

               you can’t avoid this skin-bag
               right here.
 
               Shitou Xiqien (700-790)

___________________________________________________________________________

GLORIA LEE
 

        It's sheer illusion
        to try to separate
        the phenomena
        from the Reality,
        and then try
        to love phenomena first.
        It just doesn't happen that way.
        Naturally
        we end in failure.

        You don't have to try
        to achieve
        unity with others.
        It is fallacious thinking
        and doing.
        Realize the unity
        of everything
        and everyone
        within you
        first.

                      - Swami Amar Jyoti

______________________________________________________________________________

MARCIA:
This is mental mumbo jumbo. All that is being said is that
the solution is the problem. That is still a division. The
mind cannot come up with its own solution.

What we have to contribute is in our heart and it is free of
mental mumbo jumbo.

DAN:
Marcia --

Psychological/emotional attempt
   to get from here to there, through
   solving or contributing, is not.

No effort to move or stay still,
   to change or remain the same,
   nor to have something
   to contribute, get, or get to.

As the attempt to get or become
   ceases, the misperception
   that there is a knowing entity
   apart ceases.

It is possible to say, to some extent,
   something about an attempt that
   ceases.  It's not possible to say
   *what is* as that attempt is not.
   There is no way to say it,
   because it is only clear that one
   *is* it -- saying something about
   *what is* makes it something limited,
    to be transferred by words or ideas --
    which is not what *it is*...

________________________________________________________________________

JERRY (found on another website)

Voluntary Rolling Blackout Voluntary Blackout - The First Day
of Summer, Thursday, June 21, 2001, 7 - 10 p.m. worldwide,
all time zones

In protest of George W. Bush's energy policies and lack of
emphasis on efficiency, conservation and alternative fuels,
there will be a voluntary rolling blackout on the first day
of Summer, June 21 at 7 p.m. - 10 p.m. in any time zone (this
will roll it across the planet). It's a simple protest and a
symbolic act. Turn out your lights from 7 p.m. until 10 p.m.
(your local time) on June 21. Unplug whatever you can unplug
in your house. Light a candle for the Sun, kiss, make love,
play games, tell ghost stories, do something instead of
watching television, have fun in the dark. Forward this email
as widely as possible, to your government representatives and
environmental contacts. Let them know we want global
education, participation and funding in conservation,
efficiency and alternative energy efforts - and an end to
over exploitation and misuse of the Earth's resources.

_______________________________________________________________________

GENE POOLE

Proposal: That NDS can be used as a means of refining
concepts and definitions having to do with nonduality; that
this can be done cooperatively and productively; and that
those who wish to participate wholly or in part in that
endeavor, may do so as they wish.

Further: That Jerry and anyone else so inclined, make an
effort to compile the resultant information into what could
be considered to be a 'modern relational database of topics
related to nonduality'.

Goal: To cast a wide net, to capture modern terms and
concepts, to relate such to ancient and traditional ideas,
thus to eventually have access to all logically associated
ideas concerning nonduality, in a form which is either a
carefully organized text file, or an actual relational
database, or both.

Eventually, this information could be published on paper and
web, as an aid to those who have need of such a refined body
of opinions.

A skillfully compiled hyperlinked version of the text file
would be useful, not only as a web resource, but as a
standalone document as well.

An excellent working example can be found here:

<http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/DEFAULT.html>

Click on 'project organization' to view an example of a
topically driven page of hyperlinks.

Opinions solicited...

-------------------------------------------

GREG GOODE

Maybe this can get a ball rolling.

In the sphere of *talking* about nonduality, nonduality
includes seeing how dualities don't make any ultimate sense,
and are never really experienced. But of course some
dualities are more subtle and sticky than others. One might
think to have transcended all of them just because the
dualities of, say, attraction and aversion don't seem to
arise any more.

Here are some of the more tenaciously held dualities, whether
as belief or as assumptions, or as the shadowy limiting
factors of experience:
 

Duality/Nonduality
Creator/Creation
Truth/Falsity
Cause/Effect
Thought/Object
Inner/Outer
Pleasant/Unpleasant
Mental/Physical
Free will/Determinism
Good/Evil
Real/Unreal
Self/Other
Subject/Object
 
 

photo and poem:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NondualitySalon/message/55907

_________________________________________________________________________________

Jan Sultan

Enlightenment an involuntary action?

Try to go to sleep consciously and you will become an
insomniac, try to urinate or defecate consciously and again
you will fail. This is because all these are involuntary
actions. They just happen when the conditions are right.
Perhaps even enlightenment is also an involuntary happening.
Make the conditions right for it to occur, but get out of the
way before it can happen. [Just like reading a magazine in
the toilet to take your mind off the act - getting yourself
out of the way!]

Like walking, or driving/racing or playing sports ... If you
do it consciously the results are mediocre. However if you
get into the rhythm, into the 'zone', you do wonders.

Crudely put, I know. But possibly there is something
significant here?

------------------------------

Gloria Lee

Oh YES! YES! YES! Sports is a quite the exact metaphor too.
If you would read Herrigel's little book on Zen in the Art of
Archery, archery was taught as a way of turning off the mind
in order to shoot without conscious thought interfering.
Every creative artist learns how when he is not present, the
poetry writes itself, the music composes itself, the painting
paints itself.
 

---------------------------------
Dan Berkow

Yes, we do get ourselves into binds, don't we?

When noticing that our voluntary actions arose
   involuntarily, we see there is no real meaning
   outside of social convention to the terms
   'voluntary' and 'involuntary'.

Seeing this, enlightenment and
   ignorance arise simultaneously
   from the same non-place.

-------------------------------------

Just This

"you" cannot do anything to get enlightened. It is "in the
cards" so to speak, but perhaps not this lifetime. "you"
cannot make it happen, give up, surrender, let go. "You"
cannot get "yourself" out of the way though. I don'think one
can make the conditions right for it to happen, cause we
don't know what those conditions are. But you can prepare the
vessel so that when conditions are right (which we have no
say in) that shift of context from self-reference to god or
other reference can be integrated.

-------------------------------------------

James Traverse

Yes to the general theme of the thread here.

There is a place for 'right understanding' as pointed out by
the theme of this thread.

While I cannot know 'Who am I?' there can be the
understanding of what one is not, and the 'vibration' of
'what is' can be pointed to when there is a certain precision
in the words and their timing.

The Truth cannot be known and yet it has a 'vibration' that
is recognized- it is its own knowing.

-------------------------------------------------

Dan Berkow

So subtle, it is beyond sight or sound.
So loud, its roar is greater than all the oceans.
 

_____________________________________________________________________

Gene Poole

Nondual Think Tank, continued...

I did not really have in mind such a formal approach, at
least not for the beginning of the 'project', which I shall
call NDDB (for NonDualDataBase) for now.

After more than two years of participation in NDS and other,
related lists and discussions, I can make some general
observations. It is these observations* which have prompted
the idea of taking into account, all accessible concepts,
terms, and definitions which apply to nonduality.

This is for the purpose of setting up a grid, into which one
could insert oneself, to discover where their understanding
places them, in the extant arena of nondual concepts.

In one sense, this proposal, if made workable through careful
contribution and refinement, could be compared to a test
which when taken, reveals the state of knowledge and
proficiency of a student who is challenging an academic
course. Often, the assumption of the student is dispelled,
when the test scores reveal a level of knowledge which is far
below the offerings of the course in question.

Of course, here in NDS we are not supposing to actually
formally test anyone, but much of the content of NDS has
turned out to be 'challenge and defense', a process which
continues even now. And there is nothing wrong with that.

I propose, to test the concepts and terms themselves, thus to
place them in an array of related concepts and terms. This is
the 'grid' I allude to above. If any person so desires, they
can enter the grid, armed with their own version of
nonduality, and thus by comparison see the attached relative
meanings (and values) to which their own 'beliefs and
assumptions' naturally and logically relate.

I know that this will seem like a rather dry and potentially
boring task, at least to some. That is why I suggest that we
simply make this option available to anyone who wishes to
participate. The inclusion in header or text of the acronym
"NDDB" will signify a contribution or challenge to a previous
contribution. By careful comparison and logging, all such
contributions (as Greg has given in his letter above) and
challenges can eventually be placed into a relational grid of
logical connection.

The outcome (if it is ever deemed to be 'finished', a
doubtful prospect!) would be, a potentially useful
"Historical/Semantic Map/Grid" of nondual concepts and terms.

Personally, I already have a (rather vague in certain places)
similar grid, into which all contributors to NDS tacitly
place themselves, with each word they say on the topic. This
is of course, simply a mental construct, which has been
'growing itself' for many years.

* Now on to my observations, which have led to my NDDB
proposal:

Humans have the peculiar habit of literally confusing meaning
and value. Meaning is a universe unto itself, an array of
definitions which are strictly interpreted, and can be traced
back to their origins, the 'seed' or 'sems' of each word, the
root of 'semantic'. Meaning can be misunderstood. It can
change and shift and take on new connotation, but
essentially, it is the province of arbitration by group
consensus. Meaning, in itself, can be decided by discussion
and agreement. Each meaning so processed, is added to the
huge lexicon of terms and definitions which we all use,
albeit in either deliberate or casual/careless ways.

Not so, the universe of value, and this is the rub, when it
comes to navigating the universe of semantics/meaning.

As we attempt to make our way through the complex universe of
interrelated meaning, we are deflected in our attempt, by the
existence of values, which have become attached to or
imbedded to nodes of meaning. For this reason, it is
particularly difficult to remain in the 'realm of pure
meaning', as we grapple (or not!) with the 'value-added'
aspect of a given meaning.

Value, in itself, is composed of nothing but cues. What one
does in response to these cues, is an entire topic of
discussion in itself, but for now, suffice it to say, that
such cues prompt either of two reactions, which are; to move
toward, or, to move away. In our 'NDDB', this may be referred
to as 'desire' VS 'aversion'.

Fnord!

If you do not understand the above cue (Fnord!), you have
missed the experience of reading "The Illuminatus Trilogy", a
fine series of books written by Wilson and Shae, in the late
'70's. The "Fnord!" word was, in the reality offered in those
books, a strong cue of 'aversion'. Interestingly, the
populace of this literary reality had been conditioned to the
extent, that even though "Fnord!" was plainly printed in
popular periodicals, the word was invisible to the perception
of the (conditioned) reader.

The "Fnord!" aversion-cue was typically place in and around
articles which if understood, would have led to predictable
changes in the status-quo of the social systems which govern
(control) the lives and options of the populace. And it was
the secret society of the Illuminati, of course, who was
responsible for placing the 'aversion-cues' in and around
such information.

We are faced with a similar situation here, in NDS. Value is
implied in, as, and especially by the use of, any particular
word or phrase. And the disagreements and disputes which
arise around this event, common as it is, evoke even more
value-cuing, designed to lead to a state of rest in a
proffered 'value-system'. There is considerable undefined
confusion around this phenomenon, and this confusion is
unfortunately, 'state-of-the-art' in the larger,
world-at-large. But it need not go unseen here in NDS, where
'we nondualists' have the opportunity to patiently and
skillfully illuminate both meaning and any attached value, as
we speak and listen.

[To Be Continued... ]

Thanks for listening and considering, more in my next letter.

__________________________________________________________________

nondualing goddesses
cee and ***mira:

perhaps it is high time to be done
with consorts of all kinds.
 
***I agree!

for how many lifetimes have you been searching
for the beloved?

***No idea... can't seem to remember...

yearning for that perfect lover.  rejoice at finding them
for a moment and then alas
their body turns to rotting putrid flesh
and where have they gone?
 
***The Beloved comes from nowhere, is nowhere and goes nowhere...
doesn't matter how many lovers pass by to celebrate its longing for itself.
 
or the boredom of day to day life makes you want
to flee and find a new perfect lover.

***Ah so true!! Just wrap up the same old thing in a
different piece of paper, and its all brand new and exciting
again!!!

fleshy lovers, dream lovers, where is the one who will love you perfectly?

***Everyone of them. They are no other than perfection itself.

where is the one you can perfectly love?

***Right now?? I think in his car on his way to the post office...

as long as you make yourself into a somebody
you will make an other,  many others

***Ah YES!!! Don't you love the game? It is so amazing that this
is possible!!! No one of us is another, yet we make ourselves
into others.... excruciatingly wonderful play!!! I adore it,
really!

this is an endless round of duality and suffering
 
***:-) booooh.... hell is waiting for me around the corner!! Beware
of the duality monster!!!

be done with an individuated identity
 
***No... too much fun pretending!

be done with the round of yearning for union
 
***No... too much fun unifying that which is not two!

be done with the round of birth and death

***No... can't do it... I AM birth and death... do not stand apart from it!
But then... I AM NOT birth and death as well.... now how am I going to be done with that?

bright ones, eternal one, know this well
you alone exist!

***YEP!!! So what have I got to fear? :-)))

Hello,

Excuse this broadcast message, but you might find it useful.

If you hold regular or semi-regular meetings or get-togethers, and would
like to list your group on the Nonduality Salon website, please go to
<http://www.nonduality.com/meet4.htm>, to get an idea of what's there,
and fill out the form on the page or just send me a normal email about
your group, and I'll post the information.

Also, if you are open to meeting others in your community, no matter
where in the world you are, let me know, and I'll list your location at
<http://www.nonduality.com/meet5.htm>, and advise others in your area of
your posting.

Thanks,

Jerry

PAUL COTE: escape from real life

fwd'd by Jan Sultan from allspirit

>Beautifully put Paul! God created the Universe as a mirror to see himself
>and Love himself. Who are we to deny Him this pleasure. Many realized
>beings experience the non-duality and then come and rest in their heart
>chakras. Take the examples of Hafiz and Rumi!
>
>At 09.06.01-05:27 AM, Paul Cote wrote:
>>Right Gill, I agree...  The spiritual path means more to me than just
>>being in the present moment.  It has to do with my heart.  Getting to
>>know my heart in order to understand what I am doing in relationship
>>to my heart.  Getting in tune with the heart. Understanding why it is
>>open sometimes and gushing love and apparently closed at other
>>times...  I believe it has to do with my own attitude, actions,
>>thoughts, tendencies and fickleness rather than the heart's... yet I
>>am integral with my heart!  Most of the chatter surrounding advaita
>>can lead one to a false sense of completion.  Sure, one can grok that
>>all is one, and even believe they experience all is one--or that they
>>are a robot and whats the use?.  But the heart knows the answer and
>>it is as simple as this...
>>
>>If one is in love, his heart is open, he is not under the domination
>>of his ego. He has attained, at least for that moment some humility
>>If his heart is blocked, then the ego is in control and he is bound
>>by ego.  In my case, a lot of the time, there is a problem because
>>the heart is blocked.  Even though I have experienced great love, the
>>Self, consciousness, the blue pearl, kundalini, sound, light, the
>>present moment, the witness, transcendent formlessness,  can
>>understand advaita.... even though I can be fully present,  when the
>>heart is not clear, I am not satisfied. All of that other crap is
>>pure baloney.  To fool myself otherwise is ridiculous.
>>
>>So, the adventure is to learn how to be loving all the time... to
>>follow the heart....  whereas we were previously controlled by the
>>fight or flight reactions of the ego, after some realization, we need
>>to become aware of the God within the heart and find out what pleases
>>Him.
>>
>>This is my own expression, and not aimed at anyone but me.
>>Nevertheless, I would love to get to know others who are also
>>learning how to come into loving relationship with "the Friend, the
>>Heart, the Guru within".
>>
>>How do you listen to your heart?  What happens when you obey?  What
>>happens when you don't?
>>
>>Love,
>>
>>Paul
>
>________________________________
>Love makes the heart laugh.
>I wish you Love. [God is Love]
>CyberDervish
>``````````````````````````````````````````````

________________________________________________________________________


Yes UG is not enlightened. Which is the point and is the joke. As I
recall 'his' book called The Mystique of Enlightenment (which is a
compilation of conversations) UG said should have been called The
Mistake of Enlightenment!

My own personal view is that there is no 'Enlightenment' thing, that
no one ever was enlightened, ever will be, or ever will need to be!
So this joke sits very well with me, as it does with others who share
this view. UG is our hero, the one who said it in plain terms. I dare
say you won't share this view as the desire for enlightement seems to
be about the last thing to go, supported by the idea that there are
great people like UG who have something we don't. Still I've said it
anyway and I could be completely wrong of course. Perhaps someone
would like to come up with a case for 'Why we need to be enlightened'
that should produce some stirring emails!!

The UG stories verge on the ridiculous at times. Did you see the
Monty Python film 'The Life of Brian'? Its a bit like that! The joke
to me seems to be that Enlightenment is not Enlightenment and No
Enlightenment is Enlightenment :-)Work that one out!!

Love and best wishes,
Gary

________________________________________________________________________



      Questioner: What is enlightenment?

      Jean Klein: The instantaneous insight that convinces you there is
nothing and no one to enlighten.


      (Who am I; the Sacred Quest - Jean Klein- page 114)

    Love,
    James

________________________________________________________________________


Michael Lovell:



a quote from Nisargatatta Maharish that resonates here.

"Enlightenment is when the connection between the Witness and the
personality snaps."


love all
michael

________________________________________________________________________________\
__



Yes I resonate strongly with that too. It was after a prolonged and focused
spell of 'Witnessing' that I realised that the whole thing was only serving
to perpetuate the very division that needed to be ended. After dropping it
completely it became clear that there was no separate 'witnesser', no me and
my personality. You could say that there is only personality, however
personality as we generally know it is based on conflict, division between
how we are and how we should be. So one could say total ego is no ego :-)
and visa versa. I find this single mindedness liberating. (I use the word
'I' carelessly of course).

Love,
Gary
________________________________________________________________________


Dan:

Intellectual guessing games
    are like stagnant pond scum seemingly
    covering Love's omnipresent vivid functioning
    (but "really" covering nothing) ...

________________________________________________________________________


Here are the top ten reasons
    "why we need to be enlightened"

1)  Because it give us a reason to smile in the morning.
2)  Because it is better for self-esteem than being deluded.
3)  Because it's always good for a laugh at parties.
4)  Because knowing that I'm not yet enlightened
          is a good explanation for doing stupid things,
          and for persistent, nagging self-doubt.
5)  Because it allows people like U.G. and you
          to have something to rant about.
6)  Because it has a catchier sound than saying
          "I need to be endarkened."
7)  Because it gives a focus for an otherwise
          absurd existence.
8)  Because it gives absurdity to an otherwise
          mundane existence.
9)  Because it has a lofty, supernatural feeling
          that makes the imagination of poets
          and artists soar (or perhaps sore --
          if you consider many silly New Age
          paintings).
10) Because being enlightened never gets old.

With a knowing glint in my eye at all times,
Dan


________________________________________________________________________________\
__



10 ways to become enlightened.  Any of the 10 will work.  I'm sure there
will be many more lists!!

1.  Eat only brown rice or clear soup.
2.  Sit no more than 17.5 ft. from an enlightened entity every
     day in satsang for a three 2-week retreats.
3.  Have no thoughts about enlightenment.
4.  Have no thoughts whose object is "I."
5.  Have no thoughts that proceed from an "I."
6.  Have no thoughts.
7.  Be told by an enlightened entity that you are enlightened.
8.  See that there is no such thing as enlightnment.
9.  See that there is no thing.
10. Never use personal pronouns.  Say "here," "there," "this form," "that
radiance" instead.

Love,

--Greg

________________________________________________________________________________\
__



We are now starting a Haiku contest given the incredible talent here. David
Hodges once explained what a Haiku is and I vaguely remember.

For purposes of simplicity we will call a poem having 3 lines a Haiku, (but
to qualify, it has to be very deep or perceived as such).

I will start first.

If it itches
and your finger reaches
scratch it.

Harsha

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jerry:

23 tall skinny potatoes
supersize that
38 tall skinny potatoes

Jan B:

6 billion meatburgers
with GM garlic onions and lettuce
environmentally fried

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My essay "Haiku and Empty Space" is here: http://www.outermost.com/haiku.html

Here are some Haiku I have written during the past year or so:

Sunlight on old brick wall:
I am no good
For anyone

Rescuing me from myself
Is high on the list
Of no one in particular

I wake up shaking
  From this dream:
Thank god i have such an enemy!

She loved me for a while
But departed:
Too much love to be staying.

City Friday night
Car alarms and sirens,
Hold hands, you bar girls!

If the dream I had last night
Had a message
It still hasn't reached me.

I sit and write -
Steps on the landing -
My neighbor's voices!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mark:

Mother Kali IS!!!!!!
And she has no patience now.
She IS impatient.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sarlo:


My talk takes a walk
Pedestrian doggerel
Careful where you step

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mark:

Never, never, never
Was there any intent
to make fun of HARSH.


Otter is crazy
He's a mad man of no good,
But his love is new.


My dog stops to talk,
I'm lost on the sidewalk here,
But I'm not homeless

Countertransference
Is always fun
Until the drugs wear off.

NO one is home
because the house burned down.
Oh crap!!!!!!

Man, the boat is covered
With lice and ticks.
There ain't no justice here.

Hello folks..Looking to meet folks who are sitters or those
who want to even learn and begin a daily meditation
practice.My story is I am a 25 year veteran T.M mantra
meditator.When I began meditation I did it in the spirit of
the relaxation response and thought I wanted to become
enlightened..Now I just want to be able to bear the big void
and perhaps meet some friends once a week or bi weekly for
group meditation in the upper room of Coffee McCabra downtown
N.W Portland..This would be a totally open forum but each
week I would bring up a topic of discussion and even teach a
number of meditation practices as taught and practiced by me
from various teachers and groups such as T.M,Centering
prayer,Shambhala Shamatha,Zen zazen-shikantaza,Gurdjieff body
sensation meditation which is also a very old jewish
contemplative meditation practice noted n Rabbi David Coopers
book "God is a Verb" etc We will share excerpts from various
books from the various meditation contemplation
traditions.....In general what I am wanting to do is develope
a discussion group and meditation group whether people do or
can;t or won;t or just don;t pledge allegiance to any
tradition..Everyone would bring their own zafus or gomdons or
meditation cushion....chairs would be provided.Coffee
esspresso,pastry,cookies would be provided on the main floor
at your own expense..The room rents for 20 or 25 bucks per
hour.If we have minimum of 5 -6 people each week this could
be really fun and if the cost of the room is divided equally
it would cost less than a double latte..Any one in Portland
interested in participating in something like this please
contact me at 503-449-4741 or alan_k_97267@... I will
be posting a flyer at Coffee McCabra soon along with a print
out copy of nondualitysalon and a list of other groups and
people available in other parts of the world..So bring your
cushion and plan on a good cup of coffee or tea,meet some
friends and sit in silence for a half hour

_________________________________________________________________________

FREEHEART

the mystic plays a flute of
god, the coiled rope in his
basket, lifts and rises,
swaying to the melody.

both ends reach upward,
shiva smiles, the three sway
to the muse.

the river returns, the basket,
empties, and god is no more.

________________________________________________________________________

JAN BARENDRECHT

Shoot Down the Clouds

<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NondualitySalon/message/56028>

___________________________________________________________________

ANDREW MACNAB

No doubt earth's human population is larger than sustainable.
No doubt our lifestyles are unsustainable. No doubt both
these things will change. The question is how much pain is
involved, and can we change that.

_________________________________________________________________________

DARLENE STOTT

Forgive me, I'm new here and perhaps I should lurk a bit more
before I jump into the discussion, but...what the heck....

I'm going to ask what relevance any of this has? The group
speaks to duality and our perception of it. What is the
purpose for the perception of pain or discomfort or, for that
matter, this physical existence?

I would say that the purpose is experience. That the
experience is for learning. That the learning brings
non-attachment to dualistic forms. I could take that farther,
but I'll stop there for now.

What relevance does utter turmoil, absolute chaos, here have
to do with non-attached experience? I mean, if, as group of
people existing here, we need to have these experiences to
grow, would you remove them? Or, are you questioning the need
for these experiences and whether we can change them before
they happen?

--------------------------------------

ANDREW MACNAB

Having a purpose requires having an identity.
Or does it?
Is an inuitive response to conditions purposeful?
If one is thirsty, one drinks, without considering purpose.
Naked awareness has no purpose.
Is an unknown purpose still a purpose?

-----------------------------------------

DAN BERKOW

How can a collection of experiences make you grow?
Grow into what?
Who is the one who, having experiences, expects
   to grow?
Who could possibly remove experiences
   that have already happened?
Where are they now?
 
 

_______________________________________________________________________

JERRY, SARLO AND MARK

JERRY:
You'll find me on the midway shouting, "Nonduality here! Come
get your nonduality! See a two-headed nondualist! Learn a
mantra that came all the way from the exotic lands of ...
India!"

back to my cotton candy, jerry

SARLO:
There is some profound insight here. The Bearded Lady, to say
nothing of more bizarre hermaphroditic possiblities, must
also be NonDual Manifestations; the other freaks, the
varieties of NonDual Expression; the contortionists, those
flexible, adaptable enough to grow into new ways of being...

I think there is another "Nonduality and..." here.

Ah this.

And even the cotton candy: "100% Artificial!" but still made
of the stuff of existence.

MARK:
How 'bout the karoake?

(sorry dunno what I'm asking here. I'm just wondering about
the sanctity of marriage and the needs of the poor.) I may
just be feeling a little silly now. Oh, I can smell the
popcorn now! oh, and the elephant shit. And the smell of
ozone from the tattoo parlor. (They have a faulty electrical
heater... I think they want to fix the ozone layer, but don't
understand the thermodynamics of transport phenomena. I don't
either, but I know that diffusion won't get it there in time,
and that a small amount won't create a sufficient gradient to
transport any of it there, but I admire their desire to
help.) Damn! If only the diffusion constant for elephant shit
was several orders of magnitude smaller than it is. Oh well,
when it stops, it's stop fast and probably long before we
notice it. It's interesting how physics plays such a small
role in what we actually perceive. Mostly, we are focussed
elsewhere. Nonetheless, I think it may be important to pay
attention to this global warming thing, even though we don't
understand the physics of it very well. It's important now.

___________________________________________________________________

MELODY

Befriend a Tree
by Osho
from The Everyday Meditator

There is no illusion, no deception when there is no desire,
conscious or unconscious, for any experience of the kind,
when one's wholly indifferent to the coming and going of all
experience, when one is not asking for anything. J.
Krishnamurti

Go to a tree, talk to the tree, touch the tree, embrace the
tree, feel the tree, just sit by the side of the tree, let
the tree feel that you are a good man and that you are not in
the mood to harm. By and by friendship arises and you will
start feeling that when you come, the quality of the tree
immediately changes. You will feel it, on the bark of the
tree you will feel tremendous energy moving when you come.
When you touch the tree, she is as happy as a child, as a
beloved. When you sit by the tree, you will feel many things,
and soon you will be able to feel that if you are sad and
come to the tree, your sadness will disappear just in the
presence of the tree. Then only will you be able to
understand that you are interdependent. You can make the tree
happy, and the tree can make you happy, and the whole of life
is interdependent. This interdependence I call God.

------------------------------------

GLORIA LEE

There is no illusion, no deception when there is no desire
conscious or unconscious, for any experience of the kind,
when one's wholly indifferent to the coming and going of all
experience, when one is not asking for anything.
--J.Krishnamurti

Trouble is one looks for the experience of 'no experience' :-).
--Gary.

Damn, you ARE good! It just gets subtler and subtler, doesn't
it? There's also a lot of plain old denial out there
masquerading as 'spiritual indifference'.

Still, befriending a tree is cool. I was down at Walmart and
they had this whole bunch of trees and plants in the parking
lot that were practically dead, wilting from lack of water. I
could feel the suffering, it was like screaming. Sometimes
part of 'accepting' the experience that is going on is to
appropriately make a fuss about it, which I did on the plants
behalf. To Walmart its just losing money, talk about
indifference. They gave me a funny look for saying the plants
were suffering, but someone went out to water them. And I'm
not saying this because a tree is like a person,but because a
tree is a tree. --Gloria

______________________________________________________________________

ERIC BLACKSTEAD

Is just me, or does it occur to anyone else on this list that
perhaps UG Krishnamurti is not enlightened, and hence, has
such mediocre and meaningless experience. One thing is clear,
even for those who might think his condition is
significant...this man still has a lot of anger and
prejudical judgement. For a man claiming to lack a self, this
is somewhat problematic. What may be equally significant is
this: if Ramakrishna is enlightened, then, by his own
description, UG is clearly not. In fact, from my readings
there is no one whose experience of enlightenment jibes with
UG's. So...why do accept that he is enlightened?

Perhaps, someone can straighten me out.

_________________________________________________________________

MARK OTTER
 

The best (sleep) dreams that I have are those in which I wake
up and know I'm dreaming and can adjust the dream to my
latest sexual fantasy... (no, that's not quite true, but
certainly those in which I some how acknowledge my basic love
for everyone and then I wake up and remember the dream.)

I think part of acknowledging my basic love for everyone
(whether this warming Earth is a dream or not) is to do
whatever I can in my human form to slow down the destruction.
I don't think scientists (certainly this one doesn't) know
how fast things will unravel. So there is no reason to delay
a society wide reorganization that slows down energy
consumption, because the rate may be fast, but there is no
reason to abandon all hope and enter depression because it
may be slower than we can respond. Give up your car and your
boat. Send them both to me. My car is over 13 years old and
may not last another 13 years (although I plan to give it the
chance) and my boat is a 17 foot Grumman canoe, that is for
sale because I am unemployed. Oh heck, just send cash. But
stop using your car and boat, because they are endangering
your great great great grandchildren. (But who cares? They
won't be either great or grand. they will be just like any
other children ever born. (Willing to buy into the system
that the ones' they loved so much they came back to this
insane dream to be with bought into even though that was the
only insanity present in the system.) We cannot rule the
Earth, we can only agree to participate in it. Let's
participate as good citizens, whether saving the planet from
human beings is only part of a dream or not.

both and neither, Mark

ps save the planet, guys, I'm planning to use it for
something wonderful.
 

____________________________________________________________________

GENE POOLE

Is not an entry,
Just me playing around
With my syllabus.

***

Realization has
Five syllables, while
Self is only one.

Multiplicity
Is the aphasic
Relationship now.

Semantic means,
Seed-root beginnings,
Flowery ends.

Shower-drain sings,
Gargles soapy water;
Voices of draingels.

Invisible space
Arises not, yet
Hosts transient form.

Iris opens now;
Retinal interface is
Relaying vision.

UFOs are
In-formation
Over our heads.

Errors occur when
Criteria are
Hedged or forgotten.

Many pieces make
Collection, or whole;
Assemble wisely.

___________________________________________________________________

As long as there remains even one dreamer,
as long as there is still just one slumbering,
Christ the Buddha is not Awake.

-white wolfe, the bodhisattva

________________________________________________________________________

GLORIA LEE

 
http://members.aol.com/ChanMasters/SengTsan.htm

___________________________________________________________________________

HARSHA

who's winning so far?

Hi Jerry. Thanks for asking and I wish I could tell who was
ahead but this is not a boxing match. We have had some
extremely high quality Haiku poems submitted by James, David,
Sarlo, Alton, Jan, Dan, Wim, Jerry, Mark, Joyce, Mike,
Harsha, and others and they are still coming in. We have to
give 72 hours for entering and so we will stop taking
submissions on Thursday night at midnight. Winners will be
announced on Sunday after careful consideration. Naturally HS
accounting firm will count the ballots in absolute secrecy
and there is no possibility of leaking the results before
hand. Given below are just some of the submissions from HS
and NDS.

Here is an example from Alton, a rising Haiku star.

masquerading as death'
enlightenment
may be cream to them or us

Mike, offers a powerful view of reality

HarshaSatsangh
a nice place to be
probably better than death

And again Mike offers:

The great mystery of death
no more mysterious than life
oh well, who really cares

Wim on HS says

a question
i'm scratching my head
someone's armpit itches
 

James Traverse has offered several brilliant Haiku poems on HS. Here is an
example

rain
wild flowers on my grave
enlightenment

the Unknown
    signed by the artist
    Tat Tvam Asi

    the Sage
    walking in the winter sun
    no shadow

     james
 

Dan has been prolific.

Here is one from Dan with a Neil Diamond flavor

I am the moon
you are the sun
whose is the reflection?

Then again from Dan

Ripple on my chin
lets the dew
settle in.

I like what David Hodges wrote in his upbeat moments

Sunlight on old brick wall:
I am no good
For anyone

Also from David, the Haiku master.

Rescuing me from myself
Is high on the list
Of no one in particular
 

                 Sarlo:

My talk takes a walk
            Pedestrian doggerel
            Careful where you step

Mark:

My dog stops to talk,
I'm lost on the sidewalk here,
But I'm not homeless

(Mark, you could improve yours a little and resubmit!)
 

Here is one from Jan. A long Haiku!

drip drip drip drip drip
says one tap to another
drip drip drip drip drip

talk talk talk talk talk
one human to another
talk talk talk talk talk

humans are like taps
dripping what they cannot hold
drip talk drip talk flaps

These are just some examples and does not include the variety and riches
submitted thus far.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HarshaSatsangh/join
HarshaSatsangh Magazine and Website is at
http://www.harshasatsangh.com

________________________________________________________________________

MELODY

still water runs deep
two rivers meet at its Source.
earth shudders and quakes

~~~~~~~~~~~~

saxophone humming
dark glasses hiding tired eyes
scotch whiskey straight up

~~~~~~~~~~~~

wind dancing with clouds
sand castles made in the sky
five homeless from storm

_______________________________________________________________________

DOC HOBBES

T. Eagleraven: Your wheel is broken if it does not go in all directions.

Wrong Distance: What? We have a wheel that goes in the other direction just
in case.

TE: No wonder the axel is broken!

WD: Perhaps then we only have one wheel that moves one way on the outer side
and one wheel that moves in the other direction on the inner side.

TE: No wonder the spokes are shattered. One way. One wheel. The problem with
stealing the perfect plan is that it lacks the vision and the visionary...

WD: Why won't this fucking thing work?

TE: It wasn't built for you!

---

As is all things in time... 'You' have attempted to enslave me (no fool am I
although I play the fool rather cunningly eh?) and thus, you are enslaved.
Like was Joseph and his coat.

Yin: Treat your enemies with unceasing and relentless respect, co-operation,
solutions, proactive choices and support their ideas by working them into
your own, which, in turn, creates Yang: which drives 'their' betrayal,
disloyalty, lack of support, greed, and egotism straight to hell where it
belongs.

(In real time -- this netTime IS for the battles that ensue... the wise keep
it on the field... the fool takes it home... how do I know you are
listening? How do I know I am God?)

---

Your worst nightmare awaits in the subtle realm not in hell. Jesus is REAL.
Deal with it.

I AM the one that 'trains' your greatness by leaving your success to your
own ability. My 'brother' however, will 'give' you your success but will
take it when you make it... (Sun Tzu says let your enemy build your empire).

I AM told that I look like the devil. I mean SHIT! HEY! I needed a body to
get back 'here'... just like Joe Black. Eye for an Eye.

If two elements battle then four worlds are created based in 'both' winning
and 'both' losing. Nothing vs. Nothing.

I AM not here to destroy my brother, I am here to help it win. We 'all' have
had enough of 'this side of the story'!

I belong to nothing; not even independence. As I have said: I AM not
doing/being, good/evil, right/wrong or this/that. I AM my self regardless of
the reputation which is a manufacturing of what is and what is not. To say
to another that I carry your side is likened unto loading up your own ass or
mouth (as the case may be).

Imagine the Headlines: Jesus Christ blacklisted, tortured, and exciled from
Cranbrook yet embraced by the world.

'No charge' is a luxury 'given' to those that take a poor ecomomy to a
prosperous one. The separation of these is found in those that take much of
little and those that take little of much. If you had no hand in this but
one that destroyed the progress of theProcess, the how can you expext to be
invited to the head table of your Lord?

Where would you like to be?
Where else is there?

Zen is a state of doing and ending.
Tao is a state of mind and no state.
Mu is a state of being and beginning.

---

'What' is the question.
God knows what.
What do you know?
Don't know God.
Thus, don't know what.

Finally, if you choose to ignore my questions then you must excuse me if I
ignore your answers.

Into what? Out of what? I do not know.
 
 

-- T. Eagleraven
 

PS: Where 'one' is found so too the other. We identify the first then seek
the last. You look for two thus the last is the first you will find and then
you will search unceasingly for that which is before you.

_________________________________________________________________________

RON PERRYMORE

the earth seems
to move
my feet

light through
windblown leaves
shadows dancing

bones old and creaky
ok
by me!

love the one
you loved
to hate

____________________________________________________________________________

JAN BARENDRECHT

more of more and less
more nondual tinkering
educated guess

less of more and more
more nondual deep thought bore
play nondual chess?

more of less and more
heck! here comes another shore
isle of verbal less

less of more and less
lesson two of how to bore
at a crowded mess

more of more and more
dom of bore just goes ashore
to pray and confess

less of less and less
where did i hear that before
party at loch Ness

there Nessie appears
eats the mores and eats the less
even pays the beers!

in the land of Ness
the last shore a boat can reach
there's the greatest beach

___________________________________________________________________________

JEFF RASMUSSEN
 

Haruspicated:
Eschatologically-
nonanfractuous!

{No, this is not just a meaningless word-ensalata.  It announces that
it has been divined via chicken entrail analysis that the End of
Times is without tortuous twists and turns, i.e., that end of the
world is nondual....   so get your non-twoness before it's de
rigueur!}

Jeff Rasmussen
Spirit of Tao Te Ching
http://symynet.com/tao_te_ching

leela is the play
teeming with activity
where nothing does stay

nothing happening?
desert has to be the show
where nothing can grow

nothing fertilized
nothing grown to holy cow
nothing holy now

nothing worth to deal
nothing gives a better smoke
when nothing is real

<laugh>
Jan

_____________________________________________________________________________

MARK OTTER

It's almost summer
And God, with her lab coat on,
dissects this bubble

Jacques Cousteau gently
Submerges the half filled glass
In this empty sea

Bioengineers
Celebrate a funded grant
Does suffering end?

Questions are many
Hypotheses never end
'Till put to the test.

Fever is useful
To eliminate infection
Who needs missile defense?

Oh well,
Mark

_________________________________________________________________________

RON PERRYMORE

oh my gosh
thursday came.. midnite
with it, sit erectness malfunction

seasons measured by
the sun
happy goes unmeasured... by anyone

oh lovely thoughts
these simple
inspirations

abs and lats and pumped up plastic
breasts,
narcissus in ascendance

old sailors faded
rheumy eyes
did my dollar get you well?

Jim Beam chased with
Budweiser
Marlboros on the bar

quantum physics song
in that silent, starry
desert night
 

More haiku:

Ron Perrymore;

honeysuckle vine
welcomes morning visit
whirring sipping hummingbird

dead mans vow
torturing inquisitors
molten lead, eye and tongue

sky blue silence
no more before
to chew on, thanks jb

too simple to explain,
too obvious
to notice-remarkable!

ferris wheel took us
high, no hands!
girl not impressed by derring do

braying tipsy
girls and boys
strain my window with their noise

goodnight
sleep tight,
til morning chirps and clatters

Ron

________________________________________________________________________


Jerry Katz:


james,

Somewhere I have a novelty birthday card which shows the Dalai Lama
unwrapping a 'gift'. It showed only wrapping paper on the floor and the Dalai
Lama shouting in joy, "Just what I always wanted ... nothing!"

Another time I came across a birthday card which must have been snuck into a
collection by a rebel nondualist designer, author. It was part of a line of
cheap and cheesy greeting cards that were sold at a local video store. The
front of the card was brightly colored, and said, "You are celebrating a new
birthday!". Then you open the card, and all it says is, "Why?".

I swear to God I never figured out the meaning of that card in the context of
the rest of the collection. I showed the card to a couple of artsy, hip young
people, who thought it was awesome, but they couldn't figure out it's more
mundane meaning either. But I never forgot the damn card. And the other cards
on the collection were so bad, people used to read them just see how bad they
were and laugh at them. I guess they were so bad, they were good. I don't see
that line of cards around anymore, unfortunately. I don't think they realized
they were onto something good: cards so bad they're good!

Love,
Jerry

________________________________________________________________________


T. Eagleraven;



Get it yet?



Yes?

Where is it.

Where is what?

No.

Only God knows.

What?




T. Eagleraven

________________________________________________________________________


Mark Otter;



Hi Jerry,

thank you for the encouraging words!

I also look forward to following my next career. (into wealth and
fame...) But, it's more likely that I'm already doing my next career.
Begging and whining.  Yup, gonna follow my bliss!

Love, Mark
ps one of my favorite all time greeting cards has a cartoon of 4 men in
striped prison suits (is that from the silent film era?) standing within
a short (enough to step over) picket fence, with the caption "Maximum
security prison for Morons".  On the back of the card, there is a
smaller cartoon, similar, with one of the men saying "Should we escape
now?" while another replies "Escape from what?"
pps it is muggy here.  It's only 82 degrees, but the relative humidity
is 84%.  The dew point is 70 degrees.  I'm drowning.

________________________________________________________________________



Hi All,

I just got up off my lazy duff and walked into the kitchen and turned
off two lights that were burning in a room in which I was NOT. Then I
turned off another light in the hallway down to the front door.  I
noticed that it was darker in the living room where I was watching the
Jim Lehrer news hour, so I turned a second light on there.   A net gain
of two lights. 200 Watts!!!  Hmmm... I may even turn off the computer
until I need it again.  Yikes! I could save the planet single
handedly!!!!

Well, I might need some help, so go turn off one light in your house
right now.  If all 250 million people in the US do it, it will make a
HUGE difference.  I saw a woman sitting in her SUV today in the parking
lot of the grocery store, with the passenger window open, her air
conditioner on and the vehicle running.  She just sat there smoking her
cigarette for the 5 minutes or so that I watched.  I didn't confront her
because I am no better at conserving energy.  But I plan to change.
right now.  I bought enough groceries for two days.  (better than
usual.)

Love, Mark

(p.s)


I just noticed that there were three lights on in other rooms. (I turned
'em off)  I can see that this will be somewhat like spirituality.  It
will take some constant attention.

Love, Mark
ps good luck with it. it could be most helpful.


________________________________________________________________________

What irony, the idea of thoughts arising in a non-local
presence as being "your" idea. :)

DAN BERKOW

True.
But then, who else's would they be?

;-p

Love,
Dan

_______________________________________________________________________

PIETER SAMARA

The Dissolusion of the mind, comes release from limited views:

It is not the universe and planes that dissolve, rather the
use of attention to focus the Self effulgent "I" sense into a
limited range of images appearing in the conscious field of
the mind and assuming that one is these images, that these
images and impressions make up and are one's identity.

With the recollection of one's Self as the single "I",
subject with no object, there is an inwardly pulling
sensation that dissolves this use of the focusing power of
the mind, as the "I" is drawn in Its ever abiding Singularity
and the appearing images are outshined.

Rather than contraction, there is release. The old mind and
erroneous views simply cease, and we abide as simple
pervasive Truth.
 

"Emptiness here, Emptiness there, but the infinite universe
stands always before your eyes.
"Infinitely large and infinitely small: no difference,
for definitions have vanished and no boundaries are seen."
      from Third Zen Patriarch "Faith Mind"

__________________________________________________________________________

ALTON

I am the first one to admit that I am phisophically
challenged, but if anyone can give me a better understanding
it would be welcomed.

Is Ramana only saying that all of mindville are concepts and
therefore just imaginary? Does that not include the concept
of the SELF?

Yes I am your imagination. If you had opened the link I sent
you about 5 times you wouldn't have to ask me that.

Don't we have to differentiate here between a brick wall and
a blue sky to function?

Yes we do. You can imagine yourself as beeing a little
cristal, (size doesn't matter) since YOU are the cristal,
saidly enough you miss out on all the colors of the rainbow
but get to see only the kind of like "center" of it, which
is, not really there, since we live in eternety, again saidly
enough all black. Well yes, I'm sorry to tell you but that's
all you can see of yourself, it's just me, was never there.

_______________________________________________________________________

GENE POOLE

Alton wrote: "Is Ramana only saying that all of mindville are concepts and
therefore just imaginary?"

We must mind our concepts and keep them ordered.

Human understanding (usually/statistically) proceeds by way
of concepts, and your questions are not an exception. So into
the realm of concepts we go, to parse the 'wheat from the
chaff'.

" ... just imaginary?", as compared to what?

If we say that there is an 'imaginary', we are also at the
same time, saying that there is something which is other than
imaginary. And in popular thought, the word 'imaginary'
carries a certain impact, yet, the 'imaginary' is itself
imaginary. In reality, there is no imaginary, there is only
the display of analogical symbols, taken to be perception,
reality, imaginary, dream, etc.

Humans differentiate between agreed-upon categories of
perception, and usually assign a value-judgement to each
category. The "obviously" insane person perceives what are
called by others, to be 'hallucinations' and 'delusions', and
those words carry a certain value-judgement. The perceptions
of the competent, or of super-competent persons, are deemed
to be of greater value than those of the insane or the
'ordinary' person.

If we can for a moment, feel our way into the model of "all
perceptions being a display of analogical symbols", we can
see that all perceptions are actually equal; in other words,
we can see that what we are reacting to, as we perceive (as
you now perceive this letter) anything, is a neutral
reportage, delivered to us for processing.

The 'tragedy' of the usual way, is that all perceptions are
filtered through value-judgements, thus converting neutral
'information/sense-data' into emotion-evoking and thus
action-evoking reaction.

We humans are in constant communication with our surrounding
environment, which is itself, as we perceive it, 'nothing
but' a constant stream of language, presented as a display of
analogical symbols. It is what we do with these symbols,
which is the issue.

Popular culture treats the display of analogical symbols as
'external reality', and has built a veritable cult around
this assumption. But ask yourself, "what if" there is no
actual external reality, no sky or bricks or time or space?
Inevitably, the question arises; "There must be something
which is real, what is it?"

Self is what is real, it is the only real thing, and "there
is only self". One can tinker with the definitions of self,
to create the 'Self vs self' duality, or one can proceed
experimentally using 'there is only self'.

Your realization of yourself as self, is the trans-personal
moment of re-knowing, this time consciously,of what you have
always known, since earliest childhood, and before.

The final impact of this realization, puts directly into your
hands, the ultimate responsibility of what you do with the
'display of analogical symbols', appearing as external
reality and 'other'.

To have compassion for yourself in this moment, allows you to
forgive yourself of the enormous blunder, which is to have
marched to the tune of human assumptions, and to resume your
blissful journey, which was somehow seemingly interrupted,
but which is actually, still in progress.

This concept of 'display of analogical symbols'deserves
expansion and clarification.

First, it may be apparent that any 'analogical symbol' which
is true to its name, must by definition, be analogical to
'something'. Analogical symbols, as I use the term, are
analogous only to _other analogical symbols_.

Thus, when we perceive, we perceive what we _make of the
display_ of analogical symbols, and yet, each symbol is
related only to other symbols, not to any supposed 'thing'.

This above, is the hardest one to 'get', for if you follow
the thread, it leads with great certainty to 'nothing'. That
is to say, that if our reality is composed 'only of a display
of analogical symbols' (meaning, words, concepts, and all
unconsciously/transparently computed assumptions), and that
each symbol is referenced only to other symbols, the entire
shebang rests firmly on nothing; nothing is the origin of all
that arises as meaning, whether taken as 'reality', 'dream',
or 'illusion'.

Now that we have arrived at 'nothing', or what is also called
'emptiness', we can begin to see the entrancing power of the
analogical display of symbols. As we understand that 'all of
it rests on nothing', we can also see that we are either
free, or entrained/entranced by the attention-grabbing
display of analogical symbols.

In this context, freedom means that a person is not obligated
to treat the display itself as real; that the display is
itself, en mass, like a big mouth constantly saying things,
and we are free to pay attention, or not, and to react to
what is being said, or not.

Clearly then, what one chooses to 'do' in reaction to what is
perceived, is the issue. It is permissible to do 'nothing',
or anything, and certainly, anything can be done. Again, it
is not what is being said which is the crux, and not even
what is understood, or not, matters a great deal. It is what
we do with what we perceive, which is the crucial point of
the whole thing.

"Doing" is said by some, to result in 'creation of Karma',
and those same speakers also say that understanding itself is
the rescue from constant rebirth in hell/Maya. Whatever one
makes of such pronouncements, there is no doubt that 'doing'
reinforces the impression that the 'doer' is a thing, among
other things, like a planet is a body in space, among other
bodies.

To abide the constant apparent messages of the display of
analogical symbols, is to allow the eventual arising of a
perfect functional relationship between the observer and the
observed; this is to say, an understanding that what is
observed is the display of self, and none other.

If one uses experimental tolerance in this approach to this
union of self and other, one may perceive a glimmer of
intuitive knowing, an issuing of deep confirming of abiding
as self.

We gladly share that it is fine to play the game of human
reality, and that at any time, as this game is being played,
it is appropriate to acknowledge to oneself the status of
oneself as self. One is not beholden, as there is no other
one to hold; there is only one, and that one is self.

Enjoy the multitudes, for each one is and represents every
possible facet of self. That is the way of self.

ERIC BLACKSTEAD

To Alton: I've spent a lot of time over the years trying to
understand utterances like the one you quote from Ramana
Maharshi. Many, perhaps all, non-dualists present similar
material...annoyingly interspersed with other quotes of a
much less radical nature. One is unpleasently struck by the
observation that if one set of assertions is true, the other
set can't be as they appear to be mutually contradictory.

This wouldn't be so serious, at least to me, if it weren't
almost universal among modern Advaitic thinkers, from
Nisargadatta Maharaj to Mucktananda, whose thinking was
particularly applicable to my situation in his standing as he
was my Guru.

Here's what I came up with.

First, that their are at least 2 seperate Advaitas. One of
them could be thought of as the theoretical basis of the
Sanatana Dharma, the basic ground for all conventional
Buddhist and Hindu thought. It includes the law of Karma,
re-incarnation with all it's variables, and the concept of
the Self/not-Self to which all phenomena can be reduced.

Second, there is the Advaita based on the central tenet that
only what can be directly observed is admissable as evidence.
This Advaita would allow re-incarnation to be admissable only
if it could be directly and repeatedly experienced, which is
how the enlightened commentator accounts for the Self/not
self experience. He/She is the experiencer of the Self as
his/her constant and singular immediacy. Of equal value to
the perceiver is that he/she sees that mind, or more
accurately, the objects of mind that arise in conciousness
are dependent on...shot through with...this Self/not Self
experience.

The problem with all this is that no teacher in my experience
sticks entirely to either of these Advaitas, but frequently
alternates from one to the other based on the preconceptions
of his questioner. Nisargadatta Maharaj is probably as good
an example as any as he derives a great deal of shock value
from the alternation of his stance. Until one appreciates
this radical alternation from what I think of as Radical
Advaita to the more conventional Sanatana Dharma Advaita, the
effect is a cognisant dissonance of alarming proportions.

From the point of view of the 2nd Advaita, which the Maharshi
is employing in your citation, anything which constantly
changes (ie. which has no self nature) is unreal. By this
line of reasoning at it's most extreme, even the Present is
only a movement of mind and has no ultimate reality. Needless
to say, no thoughts or mere theories, no matter how hallowed
by conventional acceptance, can be thought of as anything but
illusion. As far as I have been able to understand it, this
notion of the non-reality of all thought constructs (ie.
Everything)...in so far as everything that comprises
conventional reality arises in the mind, can be traced
specifically to the Buddha, particularly as his thought was
interpreted by Nagarjuna and the Madhyamika School. Many
Indian scholars think that even such a distinguished thinker
as Shankara was building on Buddhist thought.

The Maharshi, however, knows well that this "non-reality" is
experienced in different but simultaneous ways by all of us,
and is to the seeker, as the Buddha pointed out,
Unsatisfactory or Painful. His comments are mean't to point
to That...the Self in his philosophical experience...which is
also Nirvana, or constant and eternal Bliss.

I think one of the reasons Swamis Muktananda and Lachshman
Joo have so successfully introduced Kashmir Saivism in the
West is that this philosophy grants our perceptual world the
status of Reality. Even here, however, it is clear that this
status is only granted in so far as perceptual reality
participates and is generated by the Supreme Reality of
Shakti/Siva...which gets us right back to the Self.

I think we are living in an era in which a Neo-Vedanta

or Western Vedanta is being developed. It is worth noting
that Buddha, as well as Shankara after him, developed their
philosophies for the enlightenment of Monks, homeleavers as
Buddha called them, full time religious professionals who had
the will power and the motivation to pursue the the
Realization of this philosophy through strict and unyielding
methods; methods that exploited the "Unreality" of life in
ways that are radically nonsupportive of Life as we know it.

Alton, I hope these (all too) voluminous comments are helpful
in some way.

_______________________________________________________________

MARK OTTER

No, I've been ranting lately about how much energy we in the
west use, and how the generation of that energy releases
green house emissions, which is warming the planet, and may
well become a serious problem. So, having harangued several
lists about reducing the use of energy, I decided to do so
myself, and it's not easy to break bad habits. I am
continually walking out of rooms without turning off the
lights.

"Put your money where your mouth is" is an expression meaning
something like "walk the talk or shut up." It's so easy to
ask others to do things that one is not doing oneself. Ah
well, I see that the kitchen light is on again, while I am
here in the living room. I think I'll go shut it off and shut
my mouth off as well.
 

Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the
NDhighlights group:

Thank you for answering this
question. Which of the following
choices best describes how often and how
thoroughly you have read the Nonduality
Salon Highlights over the last two
months, approximately? I realize that
your reading habits will change from
week to week, so please give your answer
as an average of the last two months. I
assure you, the moderators (Andrew,
Gloria, Jerry) will not be able to see
who answered, nor will they vote. The
poll will continue up to June 25, at
which time the group will be emailed the
results.

   o about once a week; scan it briefly
   o about once a week; read more or less half.
   o about once a week; read most of it.
   o 2 or 3 times a week; scan it briefly.
   o 2 or 3 times a week; read more or less half.
   o 2 or 3 times a week; read most of it
   o 4 or 5 times a week; scan it briefly.
   o 4 or 5 times a week; read more or less half.
   o 4 or 5 times a week; read most of it.
   o 6 or 7 times a week; scan it briefly.
   o 6 or 7 times a week; read more or less half.
   o 6 or 7 times a week; read most.


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NDhighlights/polls

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!

Thank you for responding to the poll.

--Jerry

_________________________________________________________________

MANUEL V. HERNANDEZ

RAMESH S. BALSEKAR:

What people call realization or enlightenment already exists
- it is not 'something' to be acquired. Therefore, any and
every attempt to 'attain' it is an exercise in self-defeating
futility.

There is no difference between ignorance and enlightenment as
long as there is a conceptual entity to experience either
condition.

___________________________________________________________________

PIETER SAMARA

Comment: "Good to know that everything is just imagination."
Question: "Now... what to do with that information?"

Response:
The imagination is fine, it's the view that the mind's focus
of attention on a limited area of that imagination is the
basis for an identity between the all-pervasive Self/Light
and the images seen in the mind's lense that are mistaken.
Enquiring to whom the images occur or hearing that one's Self
is different from the images, there arises a sense of
recollection that dissolved the identity between the 2 and
with that release comes a sudden outshining and expanse of
consciousness, that becomes more and more pervasive while you
are pulled into the Singularity of the Self.

Thus, the information is really to note that when attention
is relinquished, the identity with the images also ceases

_________________________________________________________________________

I have heard from 'A.R.' in Sacramento. If there is anyone in the
Sacramento area open to meeting another 'nondualist', please let me
know.

Write Jerry at umbada@...

-----------------------

Also, write me if you are interested in contacting this person:

Interested in meeting advaita-inclined people in the
Wiltshire/Somerset sort of area. I'm in Devizes, and
particularly drawn to the Nisargadatta/Ramesh Balsekar/Wayne
Liquorman strand.

------------------------

Also, this person:
"I have a great desire to meet other people here in Toronto Canada."

-------------------------

Also, Erich wrote:

Erich here, interested in "corrsponding" with others in their
region. I seem not to understand the corresponance point of
us so well yet so if you're happening to drop by in Oaxaca /
Mexico let me know.

____________________________________________________________________

HUR

"One went to the door of the Beloved and
knocked. A voice asked, 'Who is there?'
He answered, 'It is I.'
The voice said, 'There is no room for Me and Thee.'
The door was shut.

After a year of solitude and deprivation he returned and knocked.
A voice from within asked, 'Who is there?'
The man said, 'It is Thee.'
The door was opened for him."

-Rumi

__________________________________________________________________

HARSHA

Dear friends,

I will be offline most of this month and next and will be on
and off rest of the summer periodically. I want to thank the
generous participation of everyone in the Haiku contest.
There was compassion, humor, wisdom, and brilliant
enlightenment in each one of your Haiku poems and they were
truly savored. Thank you for these precious gifts that came
from the great reservoir of creativity. We are all grateful
for your sharing.

As I went through the Haiku poems, the impossibility of
judging the best Haiku finally dawned upon me. I had bit more
than I could chew. My dharma and nature are more inclined
towards serving than judging. I am a poor Judge. I could
probably be a good Judge for the Miss America contest. But
even there I would have trouble picking the "best". The
stories I could tell would make you weep! But this is a
festive moment.

By the way, David Hodges, the American Haiku master offered
his help in selecting the best Haiku poem and I am grateful
for that. However, I felt that shifting the responsibility of
judging on someone else does not change the act of judgment.

So here we are. All the Haiku information was standardized
using sophisticated statistical programs and powerful
servers. In addition, we used super high artificial
intelligence technology.

After analyzing all the Haiku poems, our super computer
(which had been listening to oldie goldies) printed out its
own poem.
 

The joy is in the journey
Big wheels keep on turning
Proud Mary keeps on burning
Rolling on the river

Love to all
Harsha

I see Harsha posted something to his list saying he will be away most of
the summer (I hope you have a good time, Harsha) and re-stating what his
Satsangha is all about. I thought I'd do the same.

Nonduality Salon remains what it always was: a free forum where all
expressions of nonduality are welcome. What is discouraged is what the
moderator perceives to be negative-energy domination of the 'stage'.

The texture of nonduality listspace has changed. At one time we were all
thrown together into two or three lists and it made for some interesting
fireworks. Now a variety of lists has segragated the elements that
contributed to the fireworks. I guess that's called maturing.

I want to offer that NDS remains open to the frictional elements. The
only restriction is that personal confrontation is not tolerated, nor is
domination by any one person who brings a negative agenda, although some
negativity is fine and natural. We are open to hearing about nonduality
in any context.

One of the areas I've been developing is the arrangement of in-person
meetings between people around the world. It seems to have worked out
well. Anyone may send a note to NDS saying they are interested in
corrsponding with others in their region.

For a while we were into Nondual Activism. I'm glad to see Mark and
others are holding that subject up. I think the people of NDS broke a
fair amount of ground in the lands of nonduality, and we're still doing
that.

Finally, I want to invite HarshaSatsanghers to join NDS, if you feel
there is something you would like to express or explore that is
restricted on HS, or if you would like to possibly catch the
conversation. Click below:
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nondualitysalon/join>

Thank you.

Jerry Katz



________________________________________________________________________


Bumper stickers:



James Traverse;


   car
   car
   crash




   rain
   rain
   flowers




   rain
   rain
   rainbow


   illusion - i am not here


    Rain
    Rain
    Parched Earth, LIVE AGAIN!!!!


Love, Mark (Otter)
ps  What shall we say, shall we call it by a name? As well to count the
angels dancing on a pin.



    birth
    birth
    death

    Mira ;-)



    bumper

    --
    Happy Days,
    Judi

________________________________________________________________________



Hi Jerry and all others, ha, today I'm in good mood!

Erich here, interested in "corrsponding" with others in their region.
I seem not to understand the corresponance point of us so well yet so
if you're happening to drop by in Oaxaca / Mexico let me know.

welcome,
Erich


If the fruit is love and inclusion,
                     unsplit original unity -- the taste is sweet.
                  If the fruit is conflict and friction,
                     there is nothing "original" --
                     just the old recycling,
                     a taste of deadness ...


________________________________________________________________________

Please take one minute and respond to the following question.
Please click on the link below to vote. Your vote is
anonymous. If you'd rather send me your response personally, feel free.

Thank you for answering this question. Which of the following
choices best describes how often and how thoroughly you have
read the Nonduality Salon Highlights over the last two
months, approximately? I realize that your reading habits
will change from week to week, so please give your answer as
an average of the last two months. I assure you, the
moderators (Andrew, Gloria, Jerry) will not be able to see
who answered, nor will they vote. The poll will continue up
to June 25, at which time the group will be emailed the
results.

o about once a week; scan it briefly
o about once a week; read more or less half.
o about once a week; read most of it.
o 2 or 3 times a week; scan it briefly.
o 2 or 3 times a week; read more or less half.
o 2 or 3 times a week; read most of it
o 4 or 5 times a week; scan it briefly.
o 4 or 5 times a week; read more or less half.
o 4 or 5 times a week; read most of it.
o 6 or 7 times a week; scan it briefly.
o 6 or 7 times a week; read more or less half.
o 6 or 7 times a week; read most.

To vote, please visit the following web page:

<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NDhighlights/polls>

Thanks!

_________________________________________________________________________

name=Ron Purser
email=rpurser@...
subject=Dzogchen
text=Hi

I am interested in meeting people in SF area interested in Dzogchen

Ron

_____________________________________________________________________________

JERRY

An idealist sweeps the floor as though cleaning the world.
A realist cleans the world as though sweeping the floor.

__________________________________________________________________________

Albert Einstein: "Only two things are infinite, the universe
and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Eckhart Tolle: "Humans are a dangerously insane and very sick
species."

___________________________________________________________________________

Gene Poole wrote:

Idealism, friends, is not a good thing, it is poison. It is
so easy to be fooled by the outer face of idealism. Falling
for idealism occurs early in life, and is the root of
fanaticism and destructive authoritarianism.

Judi wrote:

****** Yes, exactly. The "love" that they hold so dear is
nothing but greed. Aren't they cute? :-) Like Johnny Asia
says, "the world is going to hell in a hand-basket and it
couldn't happen to a "nicer" bunch of folks."

GENE POOLE

Personally, I have seen and experienced various 'End O' the
World' scenarios. The planet has suffered various 'horrible'
fates, from being hurled from orbit (to freeze in the void of
interstellar space), the ravages of an unforeseen 'RNA-phage'
which effectively eliminated first consciousness and then all
life, to the brutal pounding of nuclear MAD (Mutally Assured
Destruction), to name only a few such ghastly ends of
'everything held dear including those who hold it'.

The point of sharing the above, is to illustrate that at
least on person who now lives (that being me), has seen that
(apparently unbeknownst to most) 'reality' is displayed
differently to each and every person. Group efforts, as seen
from here, are usually doomed to a very particular brand of
failure. And the flavor of that particular brand of failure,
eventually (however long it takes for the taste to build to
recognizable levels) results in 'spitting out of idealism'.

Idealism, friends, is not a good thing, it is poison. It is
so easy to be fooled by the outer face of idealism. Falling
for idealism occurs early in life, and is the root of
fanaticism and destructive authoritarianism.

The real joke, which I hope to point out here, is that the
particulars of any "cause" do not matter in the least, simply
(!!!) because the 'pro' and 'anti' forces of any 'issue of
social concern' are guilty of misusing their own personal
resources, of not only pissing away their own personal power,
but also of stupidly perpetuating the behaviour of fanaticism
as 'remedy'. Fanaticism, and its root idealism, cause more
harm than any of the issues which are contested, and in the
bargain, essentially 'castrate' each person who is infected
with the assumption that 'life is made better by taking
control of externals'. This chronic problem illustrates the
most profoundly stupid way ever, to 'fall for Maya'.

So here I sit, knowing something, which is that we have to
tackle the perceived problems at the deepest root level,
which happens to be within each person, and this can only be
done by each person 'to and for themselves'.

At the deepest root level, perceived problems stem from
'Samskara', the very essence of attachment.

Reality is subtle, it has many faces, the question to ask is
this; "Am I defined by what I perceive?"

If the answer is yes, then by all means, proceed toward your
worthy goal, waving flags of ethical vegetarianism, Ahimsa,
justice, etc. etc. Proceed as 'doer', and please, do get all
worked up over your virtuous ways and means to your defined
virtuous 'ends'.

The truth is, that one who has (to use an ancient phrase)
'seen beyond', holds the Administrative Key to reality
itself. Such a one, is able to simply step between worlds,
from one to the other and so on, and eventually the point of
the whole setup can be seen and understood; It can be stated
to be 'a teaching machine'.

LIFE IN THE TEACHING MACHINE: An Analogical Story

Lesson One: You are living in a Teaching Machine.

_1  The Teaching Machine can take any form; it is actually
'immaterial', but can mimic or represent any form, and any event. It
is fantastically responsive to each persons needs. In fact, it serves
ALL the needs of every person, ALL AT THE SAME TIME.

_2  Each person is responsible for remembering that what is seen and
experienced during immersion in the Teaching Machine, is
custom-designed for each individual person, and to beware the
assumption that ANY properties of experience are actually 'held in
common' between individuals.

_3  'Group' experiences are among the most profoundly indicative of
deep and pervasive blindness to the nature of reality. 'Mob'
experiences are diagnostic of 'fatal blindness', and the termination
of those involved ('violence') indicates that those students have
been 'sent back' (flunked) to a lower grade level in the Teaching
Machine.

_4  Living in, with, and AS paradox:  The Teaching Machine uses a
deliberately generated 'illusion of multiplicity' to reveal the
nonexistence of 'individuality', by contrasting projected facets of
'self' (others) as the environment in which experience is had. Only
when a person has the maturity to withstand the shock of actual
awareness, will awareness be experienced. All experience is designed
to cultivate this level of maturity. Awareness grants the ability to
perceive the nature of reality.

_5  Compassion VS rejection: All facets of self, projected or not,
are indeed self; compassion allows wholeness of self, a necessary
prerequisite to maturity. Awareness is granted to those who have
surrendered to compassion. Love of self, VS self-rejection, can
enable the strength and durability needed to withstand the shock of
awareness.

_6  The 'graduate' of the Teaching Machine remains 'in the machine',
and serves as an aware reflector for students. Administrative
privileges are granted, but are revokable; above all else, the
graduate knows... 'there is no attainment'... and that the workload
increases in proportion to competency gained.

_7 Admin Area (Administrative access only).
 

I hope I am making this clear. I figure that as long as I am talking
about it I might as well make the effort to make it understandable.
This certainly has been said before, in various ways, but please,
give it some thought.

Love,

Gene Poole

Resources: (These links should be 'clickable'. You may need to hold
down a modifier key as you click on a link. Mac users should
[command-click] links found in email.)

<http://www.heartlandsangha.org/feeling.html>

<http://www.heartlandsangha.org/quote.html>

<http://www.san.beck.org/EC9-Buddha.html>

<http://www.nalandabodhi.org/mindfulnessofphenomena.html>

<http://www.unification.net/ws/theme003.htm>

<http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/faculty/ckaczor/strange.htm>
 

"You ask,
'how to make a better world';
  there is no better world,
This is a better world".

_____________________________________________________________________________

WHITE WOLFE

dear brothers and sisters....recent events on several of the
lists i enjoy have errupted into a flurry of discussion over
censorship....what is and is not proper commentary.....some
offended ones have left.....others have announced that they
are censoring members they object to.....mark found himself
in a position of not even wanting to even post....this
reaction upon meditation reveals itself to me as a rejection
of love arising.....a rejection of the beloved.....of
multiplicity.....a rejection of a non-dual point of
view.....so come what may....i return to you just as i
am....one pilgrim among the many seekers....grateful to be
among the presence of many sincere seekers of the
way.....here on some thoughts on the
ressurection/reincarnation.....and of course, the topic of
censorship is implicitely there.....^^~~~~~

further up and further in,
white wolfe

the bardo states

It is you who think that you will be reborn.
                        -Sri Ramana Maharshi

in lower consciousness
these are and are not so
i have heard them
i hear the ten thousand
the demonic wailing of the undead
the angelic choiring of the same ones arisen
even now the ten thousand
i do and do not hear them
and this is and is not so too
in higher consciousness
birth and death are real and not real
i have been into the nothingness
i listen to the sound of my beloved laughing
within the beckoning brilliance just beyond
within and beyond the seamless canopy of darkness
even now i hear my beloved laughing
she is laughing with and at me and i at and with her
and this too is and is not so also
for love always dying love is love arising love for
ever higher states of consciousness

we who yet remain are here and not here
that the beloved may arise from within us
falling into darkness to streak ever brightly
further into the deeper darkness just beyond

endlessly and without effort
i love you, my dark one, you love me
without effort and endlessly
we pilgrim darkly into what lies beyond

mark christopher valentine
(june 18, 2001)

__________________________________________________________________________

T. EAGLERAVEN

Wheel (Ball) in Negative Motion
or
How Karma (Te) Is Generated From Nothing.
by Tim S Harris

Wheel or Ball is the absolute term of reference (POV) in this formula.

Ball is wuji. Is, is.
Wheel is wuji. Is, is.
I AM is wuji. Is, is.

A Ball with an absolute, relative 'position of still' is the
absolute of the 'slowest state of motion', resting on an
external, single point of contact with the single plane. This
is the static state. Taiji.

Without the position, slowest state of motion, external
single point, contact, and single plane, Ball is wuji. Wheel
is Wuji.

The Ball is capable of movement at the point of any force
(positive or negative) of energy overcoming it's inertia
(needs two points of contact to create movement) thus the
Ball is 'not stopped'.

Taiji to Wuji is not possible. Wuji to taiji then taiji
forever. The absolute, first note 'after' the silence of a
song (Taiji, Wuji doesn't know) is a string of notes no
matter the time between playing notes, or if the same song is
repeated, or if mistakes are made.

Wuji. This is the line. Taiji.

Some step over the line 'half the distance' into the black
(other side). Taiji.

Some people cross the 'imaginary line' that is 'half the
distance' between them selves and the the line. Wuji to
Taiji.

A wheel pulled up a hill requires 'more energy' to move than
the amount of energy required to overcome it's inertia.

This is negative motion by way of the wheel or ball which
resists without resistence.

In other words, it seems to me that the many, many, many
people are pulling the weight of the very, very, few... time
to cut the load.

This can not be understood by a dual mind that can only be a
witness to a three dimensional screen of which they are the
central view looking out with a limited view.

Breathe this way... draw (inhale) your breath from the
absolute, inner surface area of the 'sphere' aimed at the
dantain (or the heart chakra or where ever the target) and
exhale to fill the inner area.

How big is that 'outer area? How deep can you breathe? How
much area can you fill?

Breathe in from 'all' directions (not just down) breathe out
in all directions not just up. Radiant Breathing Technique.

Now, if you understand the point of the piece you will
understand this:

I simply do not know what you people want me to do. Nothing?
Then, 'negative motion' is generated and something will
ensue.

o -- T. Eagleraven

ps... even a Taoist understands the idea that a 'divine
consciousness' is required to see 'it's' secrets.

________________________________________________________________________

JAMES TRAVERSE

sages-cycles of four-DNA-galaxies...

Ancient sages saw that the cycles of nature like the four
seasons of a year are echoed in the seasons of a human life
as in childhood, adolescence, adulthood and old age.

The phases of the moon are also reflected in the menstrual
cycle as in ovulation, pre-menstruation, menstruation and
post-menstrual periods.

A day is composed of dawn, daytime, twilight and night, and a
day of a human life is composed of awakening, waking
consciousness, falling asleep and deep sleep.

The ebb and flow of waves and high and low tides are mirrored
in a cycle of breathing as in inhalation and exhalation and
the natural pauses.

The four states of waking, dream sleep, deep sleep, and other
(a variety of names for it).

Many artists have reflected these natural cycles with the
four singing voices, four acts is many plays, four movements
in musical compositions, four line stanzas of poetry/sacred
scriptures, and dance beats, etc...

                   And there are

     *** FOUR ASPECTS of DNA's DOUBLE HELIX ***

     etc......

 Do you suppose that there is a connection between the double helix of
DNA and the double spiral of the Milky Way Galaxy?

And...

       What is non-double?

______________________________________________________________________________

MICHAEL READ

Who is?
What is?
Is made from what?

Tell you what - everything that is IS!

Without the so-called ego/individual to participate in the drama of
being - why bother?!

mind/body/ego IS - the REASON is for DRAMA!

enjoy IT or not

Who wakes up? Hmmmm?

What's the difference?

You all look just exactly like God to me!

So, what do you all want (you lovely god things you) - candy?
Have some! It's good!

How beautiful beautiful beautiful!

Why think about it! Enjoy!
Get over it! Live!
Move along, move along, move along - more's on its way!

Well - hmmph! Enough babbling for now!

Loveya - eternally - Michael

___________________________________________________________________________

MARK OTTER

Shhh... it happens.
 

                     Do      st     in
                       n't     ep      it

too late, I stepped and fell and got wet.  Now I'm ALL wet.   (Well,
it's humid here on LI. not to mention TOO hot.)

Up and down, it's nice
The temperature drives us
Wave after wave of ice.

Ice shrank us... Oh my!
So global warming expands
Our consciousness

By demonstrating
Beyond the shadow of doubt
That nothing is right

'Till we understand
That neither freezing nor HOT
Is what we hope for.

But that we need love.
And love walks the middle road
If it walks at all.

Turn off some lights, please,
Mark
 
 

________________________________________________________________________







global warming press release - 2094 Earth Standard Year
Indianachicagopolis, United States of Canamerixo, Earth:Milky Way
(subsector: 43.5.778.42.42,*&^)

to: "Hitchhiker's Guide to The Galaxy" update committee

Kind sirs,

As per your requirements, we are informing you of an event that will
occur within the next 1,000 years (at approximately Earth Standard
Year 2525), so as to meet the deadline for your next scheduled update
of "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy".

As we noted on page 1,536,784,657,884 of the table of contents of the
current version of your Guide there is a single page devoted to the
entire Milky Way (page number: 9,453,123,939,124,546,157,654,958,324,
158,456,555,171,145,954,184).  When we went to that page, the entire
write up about Earth was:

"small blue-green planet; mostly harmless"

and was given a 1 & 1/2 star rating out of 5 (with the annotation
"might as well be in a coma while you visit here").

Please consider updating this to:

"small brown planet; extinct"

and please change the rating to 4 stars (with the annotation: "nice
place to get a tan and enjoy the solitude")

Thank you kindly for your consideration

                        #   #   #

Jeff Rasmussen
Spirit of Tao Te Ching
http://www.symynet.com/tao_te_ching






snap crackle pop
don't you just love the smell
of earth burning in the morning







Dear Nondualiteer(s):

   I read the "Global Warming: Press Release" & "Global Warming: The
haiku:" and reacted by (please select the most appropriate answer):

a. releasing two metric tons of cloroflorocarbons to hasten the
expansion of the ozone hole

b. got really pissed off at the author and wrote him self-rigtheous
letter, which I photocopied 10,000 versions to hand out.  Then, I
realized that I'd just been responsible for killing 100s of trees to
make the photocopies, so I burned them in an act of defiance.

c. utter nonreaction

d. refused to reply to this e-mail (even at a subcortical level).

e. "spank you very much"

________________________________________________________________________




Hi Jef,

f. put the headphones back on and closed my eyes.

but seriously, I could only do that because I had the air conditioner
on. Otherwise, the headphones make my ears sweat, which makes them itch,
which makes me take them off to scratch and complain.  That's what I do
best, so I figure it must be my life's work.

Hey, we should cut down the trees on Mars, maybe that would make it
habitable.  I had a friend once (we hate each other now that I've moved
away), who was busy raising his 4 children with a 5th on the way and no
end in sight, where they would all live if everyone had such large
families and he professed his faith that we would develop space travel
in time and that there would be lots of lovely places to live. Thank
goodness we have a lengthy guide to help us chose the right one.

Love, Mark
ps hey, what's that e all about? sounds kinky!  Oh, wait, it's probably
a reference to our gang. Never mind.


________________________________________________________________________



    i used to have a vacuum cleaner, but it had attachments so i threw
it all away.


<<the following nontext attachment has been deleted>>




wakka-wakka.{there's.no.text@all}






(Jeff again)


________________________________________________________________________

i put up a new chapter on <http://www.presentnonexistence.com>
if anyone wants to check it out.

for anyone who hasn't been there -it is words and pictures
about nonduality

if you would like a little handmade poetry book just e-mail
your physical address to wordswithcee@...

also if anyone is in the san francisco bay area i am
available to you if i can help in any way.

or just for the sheer pleasure of your company.

in joy!! cee

_______________________________________________________________________

JOHN JABLONSKI (via Gloria Lee)

The link below is to a message I wrote on my recent trip to
Germany to hear Ramesh talk.

-- John

Excerpt: The highlight of the whole trip was the very
precious time spent in Satsang with Ramesh. His talks started
at 10:00 on Th, F, Sa and Su and went for about 90 minutes
each day. My friends, having been there the year before, knew
the drill on how to get a good seat. This meant arriving at
the seminar center 2 hours before the talks were scheduled
and waiting in a line formed near the doorway to the Satsang
room. At 9:00 AM when the room was opened, there was a mad
rush into the room to grab seats near the front. This
actually worked out well, as aside from the couple minutes of
dashing around, this gave us a good two hours to meditate and
talk quietly before the Satsang. It was well worth it to get
good seats. We were in the front row each day. Anna and I
commented that it felt a bit like college classes. Although
this time I did not pester the "professor" with questions
designed to show off how much I knew.

<http://www.geocities.com/johnjablonski/germany2001.htm>

________________________________________________________________________

from HarshaSatsangh:

Hello. Walking alone and very happy.} I love you all for
every drip of light I find. I am truly grateful. Never know
who is right or wrong just love the input. Someday maybe, I
will be a light that is needed in your life. For now I have
no clue and not shore I am ready to be one. Simple talk, From
a simple person, and I am sure I am off topic. So Sorry. JJ

___________________________________________________________________________

from eXXo:

YOSY FLUG

> And then we listen with our eyes
> And with our fingers
> And with our hearts
> And they know what's important
> I hope.
> :)

:) many years ago, while living in sinai in a small seaside
cave, i used to run barefeet at moonless nights along the
rocky mountain paths. i would tell my feet: "my dear ones,
the eyes are useless now as an organ of sight; all they can
do is shed tears of sympathy if you hit a rock... so watch
out for yourselves, beloved!"

and it worked...

_______________________________________________________________________

from Loominaries:

GERMAINE

<http://members.tripod.com/~chippit/being_jewish.html>

_________________________________________________________________________

from Bhairava:

M

Namaste List,

I am ecstatic to offer you this website, given
today to me by a list member and friend, that has a very nice
introduction to Kashmir Shaivism, as well as other topics.
Just click on Trika when this page comes up. If it is not
showing in Engligh, just click the English version at the top
of the page.~M

<http://sanskrit-sanscrito.tripod.com/index2I.html>
 

________________________________________________________________________

from eXXo:

JP POFFANDI

Let's Get Ready to RRRRRRRRRUMBLE!!!!!

WAIT!!!!!....what's this???...what's happening????....oh my goodness...it's
JP's manager Judi the Terminator Rhodes climbing into the ring!!!!- and
she's got a *How's THIS For Awakening* metal chair!!....and Ohhhhhhh!...down
it comes on Lobster's head!!!!....

That's it!!!!! The Ref calls it!...It's over!!!!...It's a disqualification
alright!!!!

Hold on...this isn't over!!!!...Oh man!!!!!

Here they come!!!! Yosy jumps into the ring....and V...and Paul...and
Therese....Jen is running in with Germaine....here's Percyval...oh my
goodness!!!...it's Thunder Ant too....and Yogi Cy...eBon....it's
shadowseekergrl...and robertmo.....oh my goodnesss!!!!...it's a free for all
now!!!!!

Oh can you believe it???!!...Commissioner Jerry Katz in jumping in
too!!!!....swinging his *Non-duality Baseball Bat* to clear the ring!!!!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
its a Free For All your hynisses, and you can bet your ass
steaks are high,  ant so am i, its in the air tonight
Love it!,

suck it!, its a free for all
 
 

The following NDhighlights poll is now closed.  Here are the
final results:


POLL QUESTION: Thank you for answering this
question. Which of the following
choices best describes how often and how
thoroughly you have read the Nonduality
Salon Highlights over the last two
months, approximately? I realize that
your reading habits will change from
week to week, so please give your answer
as an average of the last two months. I
assure you, the moderators (Andrew,
Gloria, Jerry) will not be able to see
who answered, nor will they vote. The
poll will continue up to June 25, at
which time the group will be emailed the
results.

CHOICES AND RESULTS
- about once a week; scan it briefly, 1 votes, 7.69%
- about once a week; read more or less half., 0 votes, 0.00%
- about once a week; read most of it., 0 votes, 0.00%
- 2 or 3 times a week; scan it briefly., 1 votes, 7.69%
- 2 or 3 times a week; read more or less half., 1 votes, 7.69%
- 2 or 3 times a week; read most of it, 1 votes, 7.69%
- 4 or 5 times a week; scan it briefly., 0 votes, 0.00%
- 4 or 5 times a week; read more or less half., 0 votes, 0.00%
- 4 or 5 times a week; read most of it., 2 votes, 15.38%
- 6 or 7 times a week; scan it briefly., 1 votes, 7.69%
- 6 or 7 times a week; read more or less half., 2 votes, 15.38%
- 6 or 7 times a week; read most., 4 votes, 30.77%



For more information about this group, please visit
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JUST THIS

fascinating isn't it. kind of like lining up in front of a
department store for the big washington birthday sale and
rushing in to make sure you get the thing you want before its
sold out. i wonder what it is that makes people think there
is something in the front of the room that isn't in the back.

GREG GOODE

Good point! I'm not sure exactly what makes people think
that. Non-locality and ubiquity are hard to grasp. I know
many satsang-attendees in my area, and they've told me that
they think "It" is embodied in (only) some people. So they
want to be close to that person. More enlightenment points up
front! The closer the better, so that it might jump or rub or
flow off onto them. Or actually be granted like the touch of
a feather or the passing of a torch.

JUDI RHODES

Like a kid, I like being up front myself. :-) In fact I went
to Nirmala's satsang that was packed and Joe, who normally
holds satsangs there at his house, knew I was coming and
saved me a place right up front. :-)

_____________________________________________________________________________

WHAT HE THINKS OF ME

Experiencing The Teaching

Ramesh S. Balsekar

Chapter 10

Ramesh: Hello, you are beaming like a lamp. what's up?

Questioner: Well, have you seen the latest copy of the Times?
No? Don't bother. I have a copy right here. Page 5.

Ramesh: Ah, here we are. A photograph of you, a nice write up
too. Is this chap a friend of yours?

Question: He is now! Why are you smiling like that?

Ramesh: Was I? Like What?

Questioner: Like you have something up your sleeve. Like the
cat who ate the canary.

Ramesh: Oh, well. I was just thinking about "that bastard"
who wrote a nasty piece about your book in some "rag" a few
days ago.

Questioner: Are you making fun of me? Wouldn't you be upset
if someone said something rotten about you?

Ramesh: Of course not. Why should I be upset about a brickbat
thrown at an image in someone else's (aspect of) mind. It's
entirely his own creation and quite unrelated to the
phenomenon ("me") to which the image is attached. In your own
case, a few days ago someone threw a brickbat at an image of
you in his mind. Today, someone else through a bouquet at an
image in his mind. The phenomenon, that is "you", has
remained the same while the images in mind have been
different.

Questioner: How do you mean "images in mind"?

Ramesh: Dualistic discrimination in the process of
functioning as "self" and "other". It's a universally
condemned process also known variously (in non-dualistic
teaching like Advaita and Tao) as discrimination, false
thought, objective seeing, etc.. It is the very mechanism of
"bondage".

Questioner: In other words, objectifying a purely subjective
concept - creating a effigy and then throwing bouquets or
brickbats at it.

Ramesh: That is well said. It should be remembered, however,
that the understanding itself would preclude all "saying" -
there is no need at all to express what is understood. It can
only make the truth untrue.

Questioner: I can buy that. But the theory aside, which is
the real you - the one that deserves the bouquet or the
brickbat?

Ramesh: You have missed the point. I could be not just one or
the other, but a host of others as others might see "me".

Questioner: You really are serious aren't you? This is not
just theory for you, but a fact.

Ramesh: Look. As "I", I am precisely nothing - no thing. I
appear as whatever I am perceived to be. And this is as much
"fact" as anything in phenomenal manifestation could be said
to be. How could "I" be anything but I AM?

Questioner: Let's be practical. Am I to understand that you
have no personal identity, no personality at all? How can you
live without one? Surely, you yourself must know what you
are, even if someone else may not.

Ramesh: I'm not trying to be funny or clever. See for
yourself. Why should my perceptual and conceptual
interpretation of my appearance (which is "me") be any more
valid or invalid, phenomenally, than that of any one else's.
My own could well be perhaps a little more flattering and
exaggerated, but certainly equally imaginary!

Questioner: I would still like an answer. I am not just
superficially curious. I am seriously curious.

Ramesh: I have so many "selves" and while some of them may be
"good" - gentle, kind and noble many others would be "bad" -
cruel and obnoxious Again, let me assure you, I am not being
flippant. Actually the range of our "selves" in this waking -
dream is very much more inhibited than in our sleeping
dreams. In our dreams we accept ourselves for whatever we
appear to be, and it is only in retrospect that we judge
ourselves according to the "waking" standards.

Questioner: You mean it is in this spirit of relativism that
we should view what other people think of us?

Ramesh: Would not anything else be absurd? Whatever people
think of me is their thought, visualized in their own aspect
of the split-mind known as "memory". It is their mnemonic
impression, which has nothing to do with me, with what I am
or what I am not.

Questioner: I find you amazing.

Ramesh: All that your amazement shows is that my appearance
in your mind is not very flattering if you believed that I
would care about what happens in a split-mind!

Questioner: Phenomenally, then, are we nothing other than
what is perceived?

Ramesh: Perceived - and conceived: a concept. Our supposed
"self" is what "others" conceive; and of course "others" must
include our own self-conceiving because each of us is an
"other" supposed by a supposed "self". The point is that both
the "self" and the "other" do not exist apart from being
merely the mechanism of manifestation in duality as
subject/object.

Questioner: Then what are we?

Ramesh: Is it not obvious? We are, very simply, "I",
eternally unaware of what I-ness is.

Questioner: What you say seems so clear and so obvious that
it's difficult to see how it could be otherwise. As
appearances we can only be concepts in the split-mind,
whether "ours" or those of apparent "others".

Ramesh: How could it be otherwise? Sages, men or vision, have
been saying so for thousands of years.

Questioner: And yet people have not believed that!

Ramesh: The sages did not ask people to believe anything.
Belief is also a concept. They merely pointed to the truth.

Questioner: But how are "selves" supposed to act?

Ramesh: "Supposed to act"? How can an appearance be supposed
to act? This was also told to us by the sages thousands of
years ago, though of course in words and terms prevalent in
their times. Therefore perhaps the need for books like this
one. Anyway, the "selves" do not "act" - they appear to react
to stimuli from outside, as images in mind.

Questioner: What precisely is the manner in which such
apparent reaction takes place?

Ramesh: What they appear to do is conceptual interpretation
of such reacting, and apparent functioning that we call our
"living".

Questioner: But surely, if the "selves" are merely
appearances in consciousness, images in the split-mind, there
must be something behind them. What is that?

Ramesh: This is the real trouble. I mean, trying to put into
words something that is indescribable turns it into a
concept. Anyway, we may try to apperceive it by thinking of
it as a functioning which is spontaneous acting without any
reacting. That is the Taoist way of looking at it, and as
good as any, and better than most.

Questioner: How would you explain it?

Ramesh: I might perhaps say that THAT is transcendent
noumenality which is immanent as phenomenality (otherwise
phenomenality would have no "substance"), objectifying what
it is as what we appear to be through a process of dualistic
manifestation in the conceptual extension of the media know
as "space" and "time".

Questioner: Where do we come in, in this functioning?

Ramesh: "We" as WHAT-WE-ARE, being all that is, can never be
out of any functioning. As an appearance in the mind, we are
nothing; as WHAT-WE-ARE, we are everything. Noumenon and
phenomenon are not two, nor are they different. As I said,
what they are is transcendence phenomenally and immanence
noumenally.

AUGUSTUS CHRISTOS

Black vs. white, White vs. black... this war is like a
crutch! In time you forget you are using it and it becomes a
part of you like blindness.

The function of a map is to 'get there'. The purpose of a
short cut is to get there quicker... wher ever 'else' that
may be.

Let me ask you: Do you understand the war 'I am from'? Then
you know that I am trying to get recover. Why then to you
purposefully and maliciously stand in the way of that
recovery? Shall I place you back? <pssst.. I can you know>

You say you know. Fine. When you see it and hear it and feel
it then issues of right and wrong, good and evil, this and
that simply fall away.

The 'truth' stands the 'test of memory' every time. In time
and with time 'their lies' are forgotten and the details lost
and alliances forgotten (they have mostly moved on). Patience
yeilds this 'time to strike'.

I am the sword of truth. What do you think I do?

Technically perfect but a total lack of creative ability.
Creative perfection comes when there is no 'I' in the art.

o
-- A Christos

*Brahmatman, Seti

______________________________________________________________________

GLORIA LEE

From the Wei Wu Wei site this quote leads to an "explanation"
by Ramesh of how he was influenced by him.
http://www.weiwuwei.8k.com/intro.html

__________________________________________________________________________

from Bhairava list, from M:

Namaste List,

Here is an enormous collection of rare photos, which are
being provided to us by the grace of M.D. Suvarna, the
personal photographer of Bhagavan Nityananda in the 50's and
60's. I say personal because he was the only photographer
that Nityananda would let near him. He became a great devotee
of Bhagavan.

Thank you Frank for sharing this, it means so very much to
me, these pics.

here is the link share it with the group or anyone you wish.
Bhagavan belongs to all. just realise that this is do to the
goodness of Suvarna that thee photos are available to all.
there is no 'copyright' on any of this stuff. Frank

Bhagavan Nityananda Darshan Gallery
http://photos.yahoo.com/sriprank

_______________________________________________________________________

from Nondual Quotes

From: 'The Spirit of Tao' Thomas Cleary

SAYINGS OF ANCESTOR LU

Nothingness

Those obstructed by nothingness, clinging one-sidedly to this
principle, sit blankly to clear away sense objects and think
that the Way is herein. None of them seeks the secret of
nurturing the three treasures. Though they speak of reaching
nothingness, this is really not the Way. The ulti- mate Way
is not in reification, nor simple nothingness. The mystic
essential is to balance openness and realism.

Chin, from Wide Open Windows, reports the following:

I found a beautiful website of a Danish guy who has put his
whole story of 'becoming' enlightened on the web. His name is
Anders Honore. Site URL: <http://awakening.hjem.netact.dk/>
Worth visiting!!!

_________________________________________________________________________

AUGUSTUS CHRISTOS

Schizophrenia, Intuition, Mind Reading and Such:

Yawn.

Still subject to the 'I' and thus... slanted.

Schizophrenia is a question of the mind that uses all
internal information to process and arrive at a question
and/or an answer. Ultimately 'time' and it's relationship to
'death and dying' is one of these questions.

A simple answer to the question or a simple question for the
answer is the cure for this.. unless of course, as our
know-it-alls would tell you... PhChumps.. or is it chimps...
(you can teach monkeys anything you know)... the doctors
aggrevate the schizophrenic patient into violent rage,
passive aggresive, bi polar.. whatever to literally 'split
their personalities' to justify their own loose sense of
grasp on reality...

...that can change Doctor Janice and I can change it... I am
personally holding her responsible for the life of Pat
Macorey.

If there is no, not enough, inaccurate, or incomplete
information (0 and 1s) then the 'arguement' function is
placed outside of the environment of mind/body... what seems
to be 'voices' is actually a random output of information
simulating into a flow of input based on the focus of the
mind at that moment.

Because you can not take your 'I' out, I fail to see how you
can know what someone is thinking although a Zen master is
very capable of setting up the situations to create an
internal over load thus placing the I that is you out where
the work (which is this way and or that) is done to set up
your next programmed responses to what you believe to be
true.

Thus, one crime, three witnesses and four different stories
'one is never told' <can you guess 'who has not been
interviewed'>. Why? Where were there heads at 'and' that
moment?

How come 'side-kicks' can not tell their own futures? Without
a word from me (and a little acting which is 'intentional
living' as opposed to the usual stuff) how can they see
anything that they do not know.

You read the YiChing and you know how it works? You are a
JOKE! The message the the I-Ching is that everything is
changing and that is the 'absolute' point of reference. You
fart and it literally chages your day! Can you account for
every fart released between the times of 6-9 am when people
are getting ready for their day?

The how do you predict God?

Funny eh? Someone gets an itchy palm and it means money.
Problem is that the itchy hand and the money are unconnected
beyond the observation of the sequence... see it twice and it
is a superstiction... see it three times and it is a
belief... when then does it not always work and not always
for everyone?

You say you believe in God and yet you have not seen it
once...

Talking to yourself is the natural progression of having no
one else to talk to. Because people 'outside' of the
converation can only here one side who is the crazy one for
trying to figure out what is being said? What would happen if
God started talking to himself? Would it make sense to you?

Then who the hell are you to even dare 'interpret' my words,
thoughts, and ideas without asking me what they mean or how
they fit?

I gave the council 'solutions' not 'good ideas'... perhaps
this town will forget their names but I will not...

You see, this city, Cranbrook is being intentionally driven
into the ground to drive down the market... Not a crime they
say just bad planning... unless of course it can be proven...
and IT CAN BE PROVEN that what has taken place in this city
over the last 10 years is a well thought out marketing
strategy that 'reeks' of formula! And, that solutions and the
will of the people 'was and is' ignored on a regular basis.
Thus, you are all criminals and will pay according to the
rules and regulations of your various professional societies
and further, by the extent of the law....

The competition act is a good place to start.

Tell the 'City' that I am at the line and my tolerance is
complete. When all this is over, 'there' will be no where to
go. Time to turn this Karma around and direct it to the
source... Shiva destroys Shiva. Vishnu faces it's self, and
Brahma opens the doors. Now, shall I close the evil
(unbalanced karma) that lies within? Or shall I loose it?

Gentle Peace.

o -- A Christos

*Brahmatman, Seti

___________________________________________________________________

BRUCE MORGEN

My article, "Meditation: The Sundering of Causality," has
been published in "The Inner Traveler," the hard-copy
newsletter of The Meditation Society Of America. Subscription
information is at http://www.meditationsociety.com -- I
believe a downloable sample copy is free.

The same article will soon appear at www.realization.org
because it was originally commissioned by that site's
ex-editor, Laura Olshanksy -- soon after that happens, I hope
Samuel and Jody will give it an ongoing home at the websites
they so generously maintain for my words. Thanks to "The
Inner Traveler" editor, Bob Rose, and the current
www.realization.org editor, Rob Sacks, for their kind
interest in my work.

JUDI RHODES

Looking forward to reading it Bruce. And while we're
plugging, The Meditation Society of America, headed up by Bob
Rose, also published an article of mine, edited by Bruce, in
their last issue called "The End of Seeking - How I Became
Self Realized". You can order their newsletter at their URL
Bruce gave above.

......i don't get it. Someone has an insight into the nondual Truth,
a bit of being freed up on a number of levels, perhaps even having
their heart profoundly opened, proclaims their enlightenment with all
the appropriate nondual jargon(ie: language that confirms the readers
concepts of enlightenment)  and now he is the next avatar. It's
pretty scary, what passes for enlightenment these days. And it's not
just that people are declaring their "freedom", but that they are
believed. And they are believed because most people lack the
necessary discrimanitory faculties to tell real gold from fools gold.

.......matthew



hold on one darn second, matthew. The kid is a very good writer and
website designer. I don't think he's full of himself. He says: "Maybe
one day I will begin teaching (some ten or twenty years from now), but
not now. I still have much to learn, most importantly, learning to
settle in just being. And that is all I am really doing at the moment."

He talks about his crush on Laura. He's a typical teenager. He does
invite people to write him in order to 'dialogue', not teach, and I
admit that's a little suspicious; on the other hand, he was probably
raised with the internet and it's very natural for him to dialogue with
people who share his specific interests. That's hardly being an Avatar.

I do agree with you that many of us fall for the nondual language
because, as you say, it "confirms the readers concepts of
enlightenment." In that light, it would be easy to manufacture the
latest and greatest 'website wonder'.

I like this quote he posts:

"The coin that is lost in the river is retrieved from the river." -
Yang-ch'i

Reminds me of the kid who threw a dime into a wishing well and when
asked what he wished for, said, 'a dime'.

Jerry



Hi Jerry --

Sure, let the kid post.

Why not?  Maybe it will be of some use
     to someone.

It's only words, after all.

There is only the teaching and the
    learning -- which are one movement that
    doesn't go anywhere -- no one can interfere
    with it -- even "interference" is an aspect of it ...

So how is one kid repeating advaita
    concepts going to hurt anything?

He's just got to be ready for critiques like
    Matthew's.  After all, there will always
    be critics.

These advaita concepts do allow one to
    construct a pretty story for oneself ...
    setting out to find the truth then getting
    enlightened shortly thereafter ...

Somehow, it reminds me of the ten year old
    faith healer I saw on T.V., speaking of how
    he experienced being born again, and how
    his father helped him set up venues to preach
    and heal people ...

Even Jesus and Gautama, whose stories
    ring quite "true", "open", and "uncontrived",
    had plenty of critics, no way out of it if you're going
    to expound ...

The idea that someone would speak the truth
    and everyone would automatically resonate
    and respect that is purely wishful thinking,
    or maybe a memory of life in another dimension.

Probably why many folks have retired to monasteries,
    caves, and forests ...

Thanks for what you share here ...

-- Dan



in honor of jan i report i had some beautiful fresh figs this morning.
there is nothing quite like them. imagine the child of kiwi and cream
cheese and you'll have some idea of what a fresh fig is like, if you've
never tried one. they can't even be compared to their dried version.

i used to live with a girl in Venice who had a fig bush (no jokes, guys)
and a plum tree in her backyard. she was an architect/poet/editor. i
loved my life there until she threw me out. but i learned to love those
fruits. i once wrote her a poem that read something like,

you are full of rich mystery
when i pour cream into your coffee
it stays black.

...something like that. i guess you can see why she threw me out.

love,
jerry



There is a delightful little book "from Conciousness to Conciousness"
by Ramesh Balsekar. It is a collection of letters from Ramesh to a
couple of his students. The students are not named but, one is no
doubt Wayne Liquorman who edited the book. The letters were written in
1987 and 1988.

~~~~~~
>From March 24, 1988 -

"Your attempts at repressing the ego were actually a running away from
the ego which not only exacerbated the obsession with the ego, but
actually gave body to the conceptual ego. ..... The intellect was
brushing off all attempts to pierce its armor. Indeed the intellect is
itself the armor which the ego wears to ward off all such attempts."

~~~~~
{me now - heeheehee}
When seen for what it is the so-called ego is nothing more than a
survival tool for the so-called individual. In other words it is the
basic sense of identity that kept our distant ancestors aware of thier
surroundings and the ever present danger - you know, lions and tigers
and bears, oh my!

The ego is a natural part of what is. Fear of and attempts to overcome
or destroy the ego is only more of the same. So, to allow ego its
place as part of the natural phenomena and understanding that the
eternal awareness is all that there is will open the door to peace.

Ego, mind, body all arise out of the eternal awareness and in truth
are created from that self same awareness. As we move along on the
'spiritual path' we begin by thinking that there is something that we
must do in order to become realized/awakened/enlighted - this is the
natural flow. At some point the so-called individual realizes that he
or she has always been not just a part of the all-that-is. Indeed the
eternal awareness has always been all-that-is.

Is it the character who has fooled himself into being a separate and
small individual? Or, is it the eternal awareness that has succeeded
in tricking itself?

Love Eternal - Michael




Thanks Gene. Questions. Yummy.

>
>NDS

> >Black vs. white, White vs. black... this war is like a crutch!
>
>Use a crutch or go limp. The game is for the lame.

I was not aware that it was a game. I have never looked at my life as a game
nor the life of any other for that matter. I see people with simple problems
that daily sabatage their forward momentum and leave 'their goals for them
selves somewhere in the distant.

Regardless of what people may think, I am where I want to be. Remember these
words for that day I have shared... "No rush immortal."

They may take all the 'time' (the linear rope of a poorly choosen path) they
need... and take it they will, it is the nature of the fool. But know that
they live, 'at the least', seven years to my one and the machince can not
move faster then the smallest spoke.

We are all entitled to forward momentum (like there is any other kind...
funny that if you walk backwards you say "I am going the other way" and
yet... which way is your mind pointed?).

Can they see them? Is that the game? What are the rules... perhaps I would
like to play. Perhaps I would like to 'share' what it is like to be on the
receiving end of their head medicine or share what it feels like to beg for
help and trust my life into the hands of those that would destroy what is a
perceivable threat to their 'greatness'...


>
>To whom do you speak?

I do not speak. I RADIATE... :o)

Reality, unlike lofty ideals of a heaven for friends and a hell for enemies,
is self evident. Those that create these two worlds will be destroyed in
their making.

I spoke as I wept.

Being self aware is mastering this knowledge that every move, gesture,
thought, idea manifestation is intentional.

>
>
>As you move another, so also will you be moved.

True. However, what is not moved is not of creation thus is not. What does
not move? What then is not movable? A mind? Also true. I am the center of
which all that I AM known. I am not moving. Still dead.

> >Patience yeilds this 'time to strike'.
>
>Keep your powder dry, lest your strike be like unto a soggy match.

Powder? Oh.. I get it. You mean like a bullet and a gun... I was thinking
more like 'lightening'.

> >
> >I am the sword of truth. What do you think I do?
>
>"Cut a big one".

Shall I go deeper, louder, or stinkier?

>
> >Technically perfect but a total lack of creative ability. Creative
> >perfection comes when there is no 'I' in the art.

Teaching 'independant living skills' is not rocket science.

>
>Increase subtlety by 80%, increase humor by 80%, and delete the
>quasi-threatening implications reflected by your oft-repeated 'sniper
>jargon'. Others do not necessarily have the same high degree of
>internal pressure, as do you.

Ah. I knew their would be a rub... Consider Gene that those that 'do not
have the pressure' do so at the expense of the rest of us. As 'you' say: "As
you move another, so also will you be moved" thus, if there are those with
no pressure there are those with pressure... ease pressure on one and what
of the other? Unlike the first... the pressure goes up...

Just like LA should be dumped in the ocean... now there is a limited natural
resource vortex if I have ever seen one. New York sounds like a good solid
Zen state. What does New York think?

'Turn up the heat' until the 'still water turns'.

Mother light. Father earth.

Only a fool would find me (by looking for me) on top.

What, Gene, is the natural state of water?

I do not judge this world by it's successes. There are none worth
mentioning. Before your 'discovery', was it there for you to discover?

So, regardless of your 'discovery', you do not own it. It is what I have.
You can not change who or what I am. Jesus Christ. I have told no one in
real time my secret.

>==Gene Poole==
>
>President,
>
>Free Association of Freely Associating Free-Associators
>
>(FAFAFA)

When wisdom speaks all things listen. Why? Because a 'pure wisdom wrought of
a true heart of a body/mind that was forged in the fire' sounds like nothing
you have ever heard before.

Gentle Peace,
Tim Harris

God,

Real Time Realizers Tuning in Real Turds

(RTRTRT)





> Sarlo, my friend -- while we're on the subject,
>    what exactly do you do when you're weighing
>    one guru against another, trying to come up
>    with the appropriate rating?

................that's a good question Dan, and not just for Sarlo.
He is clearly not the only one that asesses gurus. We all have our
opinions about this, that and the other one, and rate them in our own
minds. What do we base our asessments on?. On judi's site just the
other day she and i had very different asessments of two teachers who
she feels are enlightened and i seriously doubt it. Who's to say?
Someone comes here and reads a post about nonduality and has a sense
of whether it is on target, total B.S. or just slightly askew.  What
is that "sense" based on? Or when we read a book and get a sense of
it being on target and reccomend it to others, where does
that "sense" come from?

>  How sure are you
>    of that your evaluations are on-target and not
>    leading "impressionable seekers" astray?
>
............We are not led astray as much by others as by our own
naivite, unwillingness to make distinctions, and failure to be honest
with ourselves.

.....matthew





Eric Blackstead:


Friends,
Apropos "sitting up front", my Guru Baba Muktananda,
who is responsible for bringing the kundalini
Awakening intensive to this country, always packed
people together in a tight mass as if this would
furhter promote and enhance the effect of Shakti
transmission. further, while he would so palpably fill
the meditation hall he entered with Shakti, (as many
attest, one could tell when he entered the room from
the back without turning around by the dramatic
increase in "presence"), his hall monitors would urge
everyone to move forward around his chair if the room
was not filled to capacity, regardless of one's
potential inclination to hang back for the additional
space and percieved "freedom".

Reflecting on this many years ago when Baba was still
alive, it occured to me that if proximity was not an
important factor, none of us would ever have had to
seek out the Guru in the first place. GuruShakti would
have been just as palpable one place as another.

Just some thoughts for your consideration.
Sincerely,
Eric





Posted by Joyce Short:



"Enlightenment is perfectly realized neither by the body nor by the
mind. Enlightenment is the eradication of all marks. Enlightenment is
free of presumptions concerning all objects. Enlightenment is free of
the functioning of all intentional thoughts. Enlightenment is the
annihilation of all convictions. Enlightenment is free from all
discriminative constructions. Enlightenment is free from all
vacillation, mentation, and agitation. Enlightenment is not involved
in any commitments. Enlightenment is the arrival at detachment,
through freedom from all habitual attitudes. The ground of
enlightenment is the ultimate realm. Enlightenment is realization of
reality. Enlightenment abides at the limit of reality.

Enlightenment is without duality, since therein are no minds and no
things. Enlightenment is equality, since it is equal to infinite
space. "Enlightenment is unconstructed, because it is neither born
nor destroyed, neither abides nor undergoes any transformation.
Enlightenment is the complete knowledge of the thoughts, deeds, and
inclinations of all living beings. Enlightenment is not a door for the
six media of sense. Enlightenment is unadulterated, since it is free
of the passions of the instinctually driven succession of lives.
Enlightenment is neither somewhere nor nowhere, abiding in no location
or dimension. Enlightenment, not being contained in anything, does not
stand in reality. Enlightenment is merely a name and even that name is
unmoving. Enlightenment, free of abstention and undertaking, is
energyless. There is no agitation in enlightenment, as it is utterly
pure by nature. Enlightenment is radiance, pure in essence.
Enlightenment is without subjectivity and completely without object.
Enlightenment, which penetrates the equality of all things, is
undifferentiated. Enlightenment, which is not shown by any example, is
incomparable. Enlightenment is subtle, since it is extremely difficult
to realize. Enlightenment is all-pervasive, as it has the nature of
infinite space. Enlightenment cannot be realized, either physically or
mentally. Why? The body is like grass, trees, walls, paths, and
hallucinations. And the mind is immaterial, invisible, baseless, and
unconscious."


-- Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra