Andrew on the diversity of One as known through NDS

The list has felt pretty comfy recently its true. What is talking about
It and what is not, I see no distinction. Null One you speak of crapping
on it, neglecting it, making its attainment more difficult for
others. I see the interplay consciousness through all the personalities
here as a continuous self-presenting teaching. There is a commonality
amongst most everyone here which is that we all see consciousness as
universal and boundaries within this ubiquity as shifting evanescent and
permeable. Some approach this intellectually, some more intuitively,
every one would express it differently. Some express it as experience
some as understanding. Some play in abstruse systems of sounds and
symbols.
Some explore it through dreams and visions. Some find it flowing through
their daily life. In scripture and study. In nature. In imagining spirit
simultaneously within and around you until the whole universe
spiritualizes. In sex. In eating. In the point of going to sleep where
bodily wakefulness has gone but slepp has not yet come. In seeing a
beautiful person for the first time. In seeing a beautiful person AS IF
for the
first time. In gratitude even for pain. In all languages and in the
words of the languages and the letters of the words and the sounds of
the letters. In the wondrousness which appears in steadily regarding
things. The black lightning in the spaces between.
                     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             Larry and Gloria... reflections on Wei Wu Wei

"Subject must always be the absence of phenomenal presence: object
(presence) must always be the presence of noumenal absence."
from "All Else Is Bondage" by Wei Wu Wei
-----------------
Larry: No wonder I couldn't find it. There isn't any. It's not here. Ha
) It is here (double Ha

Gloria: As someone we all know would say..who is looking? A couple years
ago I ended a poem about that looker like this.

The watcher of this pageantry,
Wonders if soul may be the absent me;
Who pardons my presence with a kiss,
And simply returns to bliss.

Since then I've learned that absent me..isn't really a "me" ..at least
as we usually understand this word to be some sort of fixed identity.
There is one "easy" way to "make contact" with this "absent presence" -
it  is to find and hear the inner silence.. I don't know if this will
work for you and there are certainly many more ways, but I'm passing it
along. It is something from an Osho book on various tantra meditations.
Our senses usually take us out to make contact with the world. Like
vision goes out in a linear way..but sounds come to us, we are the
receiving center,.
at least how we experience it.. don't get hung up on the logic here and
start arguing about what is a center..just keep this simple.. ok? What I
like about this is you can do it anywhere anytime.. you do not need to
go to a quiet place to meditate in silence, do it in a noisy office or
sitting on a park bench listening to traffic Most of the time your
hearing is not actually taking in all the sounds around you, it it
filtering them out, so you may be surprised if you put all your
attention into listening how much you will hear at first.

Listen to the sounds arriving.. listen for where they are being
received, look for the soundless center that can hear because it is
itself silent. You may be surprised where that is in you, do not expect
it should be a certain place between your ears. Do not dwell on thoughts
about the sounds, that is beautiful or ugly, just look for where they go
inside you, where they are received. Suddenly, your awareness will shift
to that silent center.

Larry: why contact nothing when it's staring you in the face. nothing
sounds kind of negative emotionally, but it's not. it's just simply not
                                 ~~~~~~~~~~~
                 Dave's reflections on NDS

This community appears much like everyday common "life", and so you
could say what is it's use? But where else should one put advaita
into practice. Sometimes, others who practice advaita, practice it
beautifully once a week, and forget all about it the rest of the
week.

I personally ran screaming from that kind of practice. Here, nobody's
trying to stuff any one pre-defined and rigid ideology into packages
that don't fit.

Since I've been here, Grace has acted through me in some pretty
beautiful ways, and I'd hazard that if I hadn't been here, I'd have
missed the opportunity. Of course destiny dictated that I would
be here.... and that's where I was.
                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

             Melody shares from the writings ofKhwajah 'Abdallah
al-Ansari, an 11th century Sufi author and saint

"Know that people are a headache, the cure for which is being alone.
Neither do we associate with people, nor do people have [a
sense of ] separateness from us. The self is the idol and [people's]
approval is the sign of duality (lit. zunnar). I have all at once
uttered the whole of the depths of the truth, whether you accept or deny
it."

"How can the critics' criticism matter to one, when clear water is in
the stream?!"

"As long as there is duality, [one's] relationship is with Adam and Eve.
But when duality departs, the one [reality] is God. When the path of
Lordship (rububiyat) appears, the dust of humanness departs."

"He is not veiled; but He is not apparent to every eye. To this extent,
conceal with dignity, since time clarifies. In the scroll of
the Sufi, speech does not arise from the heart, but from the soul. [In
fact,] it is also not from the soul; speech is the pretense. If you can
stand drinking, drink. Otherwise, get to work and shut up!"

[This one's my favorite: ]
"For some time I would seek Him yet would find my self. Now I seek my
self and find Him."
                 ~~~~~~~~~~~

             Gloria shares from an Osho Zen Tarot reading

13. Dropping Knowledge

-------------------------------------

Naropa's haunting vision

Truth is your own experience, your own vision. Even if
I have seen the truth and I tell you, the moment I
tell you it will become a lie for you, not a truth.
For me it was truth, for me it came through the eyes.
It was my vision. For you, it will not be your vision,
it will be a borrowed thing. It will be a belief, it
will be knowledge--not knowing. And if you start
believing in it, you will be believing a lie.

Now remember it. Even a truth becomes a lie if it
enters your being through the wrong door. The truth
has to enter through the front door, through the eyes.
Truth is a vision. One has to see it.

Naropa was a great scholar, a great pundit, with ten
thousand disciples of his own. One day he was sitting
surrounded by thousands of scriptures--ancient, very
ancient, rare. Suddenly he fell asleep, must have been
tired, and he saw a vision.

He saw a very, very old, ugly, horrible woman--a hag.
Her ugliness was such that he started trembling in his
sleep. It was so nauseating he wanted to escape--but
where to escape, where to go?

He was caught, as if hypnotized by the old hag. Her
eyes were like magnets.

"What are you studying?" asked the old woman.

He said, "Philosophy, religion, epistemology,
language, grammar, logic."

The old woman asked again, "Do you understand them?"

Naropa said, "Of course... Yes, I understand them."

The woman asked again, "Do you understand the word, or
the sense?"

Thousands of questions had been asked to Naropa in his
life--thousands of students always asking,
inquiring--but nobody had asked this: whether he
understands the word, or the sense. And the woman's
eyes were so penetrating--those eyes were going to the
very depth of his being, and it was impossible to lie.
To anybody else he would have said, "Of course I
under-stand the sense," but to this woman, this
horrible-looking woman, he had to say the truth. He
said, "I understand the words."

The woman was very happy. She started dancing and
laughing, and her ugliness was transformed; a subtle
beauty started coming out of her being. Thinking, "I
have made her so happy. Why not make her a little more
happy?" Naropa then said, "And yes, I understand the
sense also."

The woman stopped laughing, stopped dancing. She
started crying and weeping and all her ugliness was
back--a thousandfold more. Naropa said, "Why are you
weeping and crying? And why were you laughing and
dancing before?"

The woman said, "I was happy because a great scholar
like you didn't lie. But now I am crying and weeping
because you have lied to me. I know--and you
know--that you don't understand the sense."

The vision disappeared and Naropa was transformed. He
escaped from the university, he never again touched a
scripture in his life. He became completely ignorant,
he understood--the woman was nobody outside, it was
just a projection. It was Naropa's own being, through
knowledge, that had became ugly. Just this much
understanding, that "I don't understand the sense,"
and the ugliness was transformed immediately into a
beautiful phenomenon.

This vision of Naropa is very significant. Unless you
feel that knowledge is useless you will never be in
search of wisdom. You will carry the false coin
thinking that this is the real treasure. You have to
become aware that knowledge is a false coin--it is not
knowing, it is not understanding. At the most it is
intellectual--the word has been understood but the
sense lost.
                     ~~~~~~~~.o00o.~~~~~~~~~

If you keep a flowering branch in your heart, surely the singing bird
will come.
~Chinese Saying

Why look for proof, for understanding,
just realize that the vision
in front of your eyes can't be,
not as you see it.

What is any miracle,
other than an apparition
within this vision?

What is proof,
other than an explanation
that satisfies
within this vision.

Understand it?!
It is not possible!

Look at it!
You cannot be!
Here, walking, talking
in the middle of an
empty infinity.

THAT is the miracle.

--Manchine

_________________________________________________________________________

GLORIA LEE

This past Friday, I went into Wash DC to see the Tibetan
Village on the Mall.
Their very finest craftsmen were demonstrating their arts.
Several monks were
continuing the sand mandala underway all week, which
requires a steady touch.
Fine colored grains of sand are put in a slender metal
funnel and then rubbed
gently with a metal wand so that the slight vibration causes
a few grains at a
time to drop out the small opening. The intricacy of this
design is incredible.

The painting of the Thangkhas, religious images of Buddha
and Bodhisattvas are
also finely detailed. As well as painting, some are created
by an applique
technique of rich materials and fine sewing. Pashima shawls
hand woven of tiny
fine threads. The lettering of their texts is traditionally
hand carved into
wooden blocks for printing. The enormous amount of time to
do these crafts is
quite obvious, not to mention the time it takes to learn to
do them well. It
all gives an impression of having all the time in the world
to do something
just right.

At the Buddhist temple in a tent, there was a continous
round of teachings and
chantings. And the tent was full to overflowing. It's very
encouraging to see
such interest. The end of the talk I heard, the monk asked
how many might be
returning for the next talk an hour later and half the crowd
raised their
hands. He told the rest that if this might be their only
hearing of Buddhist
teachings they might wonder what they got from it, but to
think of Buddhism as
being not about getting but more about what one might come
there to leave. He
made a few points about dropping stuff and said the essence
of the message is
how to relax and leave worries behind. Everyone clapped. The
Tibetans certainly
do have a very noticable serenity and kindly cheerfulness in
their willingness
to talk to anyone and everyone and patiently answer
questions.

There were more crafts and yaks and a nomad's tent and a
huge prayer
wheel,dolls in Tibetan costumes. Anyway, I'll soon put a few
pictures in the
files in a Tibetan folder..the flash camera ones I haven't
got back yet.

A sample of their various arts can be seen at this website:
http://www.beliefnet.com/features/dalailama/tibetanarts.html

Be sure to at least see the incredible Sand Mandala pictures
at:
http://www.artnetwork.com/Mandala/

On Friday, 50,000 people showed up to hear the Dalai Lama's
talk on the mall.
It was non-political, focusing on the illusory nature of
wealth and power, and
the role of hope and generosity toward others in bringing
happiness.

A video webcast of his talk in Wash DC will be available
July 5th 7:30,
continuing until Aug at this site:
http://www.beliefnet.com/features/dalailama/index.html

________________________________________________________________________________

GLORIA LEE FORWARDS:

namaste. Continuing on with the excerpts from "The prayer of
the frog" by
Anthony de Mello.

Regards Gummuluru Murthy
------------------------------------------------------------------------

RELIGION: HOW SPIRITUAL ORGANIZATIONS GROW

On a rocky seacoast where shipwrecks were frequent there was
once a ramshackle
little life-saving station. It was no more than a hut and
there was only one
boat, but the few people who manned the station were a
devoted lot who kept
constant watch over the sea and, with little regard for
themselves and their
safety, went fearlessly out in a storm if they had any
evidence that there had
been a shipwreck somewhere. Many lives were thus saved and
the station became
famous.

As the fame of the station grew, so did the desire of people
in the
neighbourhood to become associated with its excellent work.
They generously
offered of their time and money so new members were
enrolled, new boats bought
and new crews trained. The hut too was replaced by a
comfortable building which
could adequately handle the needs of those who had been
saved from the sea and,
of course, since shipwrecks do not occur everyday, it became
a popular
gathering place - a sort of local club. As time passed the
members became so
engaged in socializing that they had little interest in
life-saving, though
they duly sported the life-saving motto on the badges they
wore. As a matter of
fact, when some people were actually rescued from the sea,
it was always such a
nuisance because they were dirty and sick and soiled the
carpeting and the
furniture.

Soon the social activities of the club bacame so numerous
and the life-saving
activities so few that there was a show-down at a club
meeting with some
members insisting that they return to their original purpose
and activity. A
vote was taken and these trouble makers, who proved to be a
small minority,
were invited to leave the club and start another.

Which is precisely what they did - a little further down the
coast, with such
selflessness and daring that, after a while, their heroism
made them famous.
Whereupon their membership was enlarged, their hut was
reconstructed ... and
their idealism smothered. If you happen to visit that area
today you will find
a number of exclusive clubs dotting the shoreline. Each one
of them is
justifiably proud of its origin and its tradition.
Shipwrecks still occur in
those parts, but nobody seems to care much.

________________________________________________________________________________\
_


BRUCE MORGEN

Sometimes nonduality is very beautifully pointed toward,
which is all that
words can do in that regard. Most of the time, the words
appear too mundane to
be of such an exalted llk, but that is a mere appearance.
Look more deeply,
with all the clarity you can muster. Drop your assumptions
about what "should"
be happening and kick them aside -- you might notice that
the nondual does not
preclude the mundane, but rather effortlessly and
exquisitely encompasses it.

MIRA

I am always hanging around in this Salon, reading words,
savouring their
ordinary mundane and plain taste. Ah, and then I stumble
upon your words Bruce,
which remind me again why the ordinary tastes so superbly
extra-ordinary. How
could it be that one can point to the non-dual only in less
than ordinary
words? Words are already nondual by nature. It is only
interpretations that
split them into this duality of exalted/mundane. What they
arise from precedes
such interpretations, so what quality could they possibly
have? Your words have
exactly the right taste, Bruce, thanks.

________________________________________________________________________________\
__

MANCHINE

On the way in to work today, I realized I was looking at
clear snow capped
mountains below a tapestry sky of high alto cummulus, after
a week of
devastating rains....

I realized that it was nothing compared to the weekend, at
home in the house,
where for some unbenown reason I had been heavily graced
with the presence of "
" AM, no intention, "appearing" out of nowhere over and
over. Being in awe and
joy and thanks... and this view this morning, no more, no
less... just a part
of IT, the same part.

I AM THAT, you know what I mean?

________________________________________________________________________________\
____

ANDREW MACNAB

Projective geartrain spins like crazy clockwork calculating
machine. Clatter of
output finger on archaic keyboard interface device...
Projected response
projects..."Judi's feeling feisty"... Projection engine
resumes cruise mode.

________________________________________________________________________________\
_

JAN KOEHOORN

Time

In the good old days, time was considered and absolute
thing. Isaac Newton
thought so, and so did the rest of the world. Albert
Einstein proved that there
isn't such a thing as absolute time. He said that time could
be different for
different observers. To me, time is only there when thinking
is there. No
thinking, no time, for example when in deep dreamless sleep,
or between two
thoughts.

________________________________________________________________________________\
_


GURU DAVE

Friends,

to celebrate my recent rumoured but not yet hotly debated
enlightenment..we
will be convening with Harjap, an enlightened colleague, in
London's Hyde Park
and listening to some informal enlightened banter while
cruising the cool beats
of London's free biggest music party 'Party in the Park' or
taking a dip in the
serpentine lake

It's bound to be packed so I suggest we convene somewhere
Hyde Park Corner at a
civilised hour and then we can ruminate onwards from there.

That's Sunday 9 July 2000 at 13:00

If you need to come later then contact me ASAP so we can
find a way of meeting
(by using mobile phones)

Contact The Secretary tarotmike@y... for further details

________________________________________________________________________________\
__
_____________________________________________________________________________
We are the Nonduality Generation.
http://www.nonduality.com

MARK OTTER

There is a lovely guided meditation, spoken by Ram Dass on
a CD called The Chord of Love (Ram Dass and Amazing Grace -
it's easy to find if you want to hear it.) I'd like to
share the meditation with you:

Now, just getting comfortable,
Being with what is...
Sounds
Sights
Feelings
Sensations
Thoughts
Not pushing or pulling
Not trying to stop, or change
Rest your weary mind
Just be with what is

Perhaps imagine the ocean
A vast ocean of awareness
Rest in the depths of the ocean

At the surface of the ocean,
Waves arise
Waves of thought
Of sensation
Of feeling
Memories
Plans
Waves of phenomenon after phenomenon
Arising
Existing
And then dissolving back into the ocean of which they are a
part
Your awareness
Ocean
Waves arising,
Falling back into the ocean
Your awareness embraces all phenomena

Imagine
Surrounding you
Images
Images appearing in concentric circles
Spreading out as far as the mind can imagine
In every direction
These concentric circles composed of beings
Of ALL beings
Of beings now and then
Of beings here and there
Of beings on this plane of awareness
And on many other planes as well
Beings that are human
Beings of all species
Beings like the planet Earth
Stars
Galaxies

In this phantasmagoric image of all beings
Arises the awareness of the suffering inherent in these
beings
Suffering that is connected with being in form
Suffering that is the result
Of the clinging of mind

>From the center of your chest,
Breathing out
Send forth to these beings
Light
And love
Touch each being with your heart

May all beings everywhere
Be free from suffering
May all beings everywhere
Be peaceful
May all beings everywhere
Be happy
May all beings everywhere
Be free

____________________________________________________________________________

CARLOS DWA

Cosmic body,
   body of man,
   of lightning and muck be thee struck:

   Inner vistas of unrealized dominions,
   Flash hormones of nanosecond halflife,
   The cascading cresendo of neuropetide
   aspiration,
   that spawn the emergent gods.
   So magnificant be they--
   compelled
   to deny their common origins
   in the metabolic substrate.

   All things physical
   All things miraculous

   Only existrance exists.

   Even your most etherial yearning
   can be weighed upon the glistening scales
   of my upright serpent.

   The denied gods of you genome
   rise up to mock you.
   They will withhold forever
         the substance of your genius -

   As you persist in taking the true miracle
         for illusion
   and infertile supremacist conceptions
         for the gates of being.

   Where lie your encoded sagas?
   Where your Oda?
   Your wandering poet sorcerer
   who seeks the flashing firmament
   in the enigmatic daemon
   of
   his own flesh.

   Enlivening,  this fear,
   admixture of expansion.
   Hold high the graven cauldron
   of the quaking
   breaking symmetry.

   The runes undulate upon your cortex
   splaying patterns of perception
   into nor forgotten realms.

The Book About the Unwritten Book   3:07:09
___________________________________________________________________

TONY BURCH

Look at me, a collection of atoms, taken from the
stars.
Atoms bonded into me, through unknown processes.
Welded together to a grand design.
Look at myself.

Look at this, a simple cup, hardened clay, made by
fire.
Liquid heated by distant lifeforms turned to gas.
Cup and liquid made by atoms, just like mine.
Taken from the stars, as I was.

So cup, and liquid, and heat, and me are the same,
identical
No different, yet I feel different therefore I am, am
I not?
Am I not? But we are the same.
So I feel different, yet am not.

Are we not the same?

___________________________________________________________________

DAVE AND TONY

TONY: Look at me, a collection of atoms, taken from the
stars. Atoms bonded into me, through unknown processes.
Welded together to a grand design.

DAVE: Almost like a web of energy. An electron that's in
your arm now, may be in the chair an instant later.
Electrons themselves made up of smaller particles (called
particles, actually, I wouldn't really count on it.. makes
for easier conceptualization). Finally it seems that
everything reduces to pure energy.

TONY: Look at myself.

DAVE: Incredible isn't it? That this "cloud" of energy has
intelligence, that it can perceive of it's own existence.
Have you actually "seen" the fullness, almost impossibility
of that perception.

Where is that perception "projected to", or where does it
"register"? In the brain? Which is finally just a part of
the web of energy?

Intelligent energy! Make one think. Perception in part of
the "cloud". Perception in various parts of the cloud. A
greater cloud with a collective consciousness.

TONY: Look at this, a simple cup, hardened clay, made by
fire. Liquid heated by distant lifeforms turned to gas. Cup
and liquid made by atoms, just like mine. Taken from the
stars, as I was.

DAVE: What is cup, fire, gas, even atoms? From where did
the stars arise? What were these things, before the stars,
before the gasses. Where did all the individual
"perceptions" come from? Before the stars, what was there?
The nanosecond before the big bang, what was there?

TONY: So cup, and liquid, and heat, and me are the same,
identical No different, yet I feel different therefore I
am, am I not? Am I not? But we are the same. So I feel
different, yet am not.

Are we not the same?

DAVE: Some say, that we are the same. Pure conscient energy
that made all this. An infinite twist of timespace. All of
this an exquisit image in a dimensionless non existant
space, pure existance.

You are not what you think you are. But that's not at all
bad.

__________________________________________________________________________

OH

Hello all dears:

How the heck are you all? i sure have missed you. Hope you
have been taking care of your precious selves.

Am hoping to be at Gathering to meet a lot of you, if ole
bones and ole Bessie (oh's 78 Dodge SW) will make it!!

i been gettin in a lot of trouble so everything fine here
at pile! hoho!

much love to alL

*****

Chief Seattle and old woman used to sit on garbage pile,
drink Freedom Tea a lot....ah yes, i remember it well. ,^))
Here is something he said one July 4th:

"Every part of all this soil is sacred to my people. Every
hillside, every valley, every plain and grove has been
hallowed by some sad or happy event in days long vanished.
The very dust you now stand on responds more willingly to
their footsteps than to yours, because it is rich with the
blood of our ancestors and our bare feet are conscious of
the sympathetic touch.

"Even the little children who lived here and rejoiced here
for a brief season love these somber solitudes, and at
eventide they greet shadowy returning spirits.

"And when the last red man shall have perished, and the
memory of my tribe shall have become a myth among the white
men, these shores will swarm with the invisible dead of my
tribe and when our children's children think themselves
alone in the field, the store, the shop, upon the highway,
or in the silence of the pathless woods, they will not be
alone. All night when the streets of your cities and
villages are silent and you think them deserted, they will
throng with the returning hosts that once filled and still
love this beautiful land.

"The white man will never be alone.

"Let him be just and deal kindly with my people, for the
dead are not powerless. Dead, did I say? There is no death,
only a change of worlds."

_____________________________________________________________________________


JUDI RHODES

Enlightenment is a very serious matter. It's the
Transcendence of life altogether as you now assume it to
be. It's about death - your death. The Teaching is a Sacred
matter and not a self improvement technique thinking that
you are going to get something out of it. Because the very
one that thinks they are going to get something out of it
is what gets obliterated in the process. Enlgihtenment is
not something that you can *aspire* to like the violin. If
you're ready to die right now and never go back I say come
on, but if not, turn back, go on with your life and be
happy. God has everything under control.

*****

God shows up in the weirdest places! :-) I don't why he
doesn't just in the books and in church where he belongs!
Like in the good 'ol days. :-) Now that was a God you could
trust! :-)

________________________________________________________________________________

MARK OTTER

Strange game, this list... I don't recall seeing anyone win
yet. (oh, come on, Mark - We're all winners if we love the
game...) Duality arises so that games may be played. Hide
and seek, what fun! Damn, I had a God just a minute ago...
Politics, genocide, environmental destruction - just games.
You gotta lose if you want to win! Put your money on the
table, cause if it doesn't flow, it gets stuck. As Hugh
Romney says, "If you don't have a sense of humor, it's just
not funny."

http://users.aol.com/wgeneral/wavyhome.html
http://www.seva.org/

________________________________________________________________________________\
____

ED ARRONS

Enlightenment is not always a serious matter, as Mark and
others humorously offer. There is no one "teaching" except
the one you choose of your own accord. Self-improvement is
valid when it leads you to...actually most everybody on the
list could do well with self-improvement instead of
pretending they are enlightened or that they even know what
that is.

So welcome to the list, have fun, and get as much as you
can out of it. It won't be long before your as confused as
the rest of us. :-)

________________________________________________________________________________\
____

MARCIA PAUL

I say nothing gets obliterated. Nothing goes away.
Perspective shifts and what was foreground becomes
background. It gets seen for what it really was all along.
Energy, fuel but not who you really are. If you think that
something gets obliterated you are still "in it". :-)

_______________________________________________________________________________

MANUEL HERNANDEZ

A couple had two little boys, ages 6 and 8, who were
excessively mischievous. The two were always getting into
trouble and their parents could be assured that if any
mischief occurred in their town their two young sons were
in some way involved.

The parents were at their wits end as to what to do about
their sons' behavior. The mother had heard that a clergyman
in town had been successful in disciplining children in the
past, so she asked her husband if he thought they should
send the boys to speak with the clergyman. The husband
said, "We might as well. We need to do something before I
really lose my temper!"

The clergyman agreed to speak with the boys, but asked to
see them individually. The 6-year-old went to meet with him
first. The clergyman sat the boy down and asked him
sternly, "Where is God?" The boy made no response, so the
clergyman repeated the question in an even more stern tone,
"Where is God?" Again the boy made no attempt to answer, so
the clergyman raised his voice even more and shook his
finger in the boy's face, "Where is God?" At that the boy
bolted from the room and ran directly home, slamming
himself in his closet. His older brother followed him into
the closet and said, "What happened?"

The younger brother replied, "We are in BIG trouble this
time. God is missing and they think we did it!"

______________________________________________________________________________


--
We are the Nonduality Generation.
http://www.nonduality.com

As it rises so it falls.
  Make effort and it rises.
  Stop effort and it falls.
  Make the choice!

  Stay as simple natural Being
    without thought or doership.
  Out of Nothing you can do anything
    and not leave footprints.
  No intention is no limitation.
  Just stay Quiet.
  Simply do not stir a thought.

  Not activating the mind is to not externalize.
  There is no way or method,
    just keep out of the way.
  The revelation of the Self will occur
    only when you do not interfere.
  Keeping Quiet is giving time to this Love and Beauty.
  Stay as Such.

  --Papaji

____________________________________________________________________________

Waves

Waves arise and fall back into the ocean
I tried to grasp the highest wave, but the water was too wet
to hold.
Waves arise and fall back into the ocean
I tried to ride the biggest wave, but the water was soft,
and so I sank.

Waves arise and fall back into the ocean
I tried to be the tallest wave, but the wind pushed me over.
Waves arise and fall back into the ocean
Neither large nor small, I arise and fall back into God.
Arise and fall,
Arise and fall,
Arise and fall.


Here's a shorter one that's more to the point:

Does the wave fear the water from which it rises?
Then why do you fear love?

--Mark Otter

__________________________________________________________________________

JAN KOEHOORN

I once heard a story about God. After creating the world he
was very tired, as you can imagine. He said to himself:
"Where shall I hide, now that I'm done creating?" This was
a big problem for him. Suddenly it came to him, and a big
smile appeared on his face. "I know what to do!" he
shouted. "I'll hide inside the people, they will never look
for me there!"

________________________________________________________________________


MARK OTTER

I just watched a fascinating show on PBS - Oliver Sachs,
darn, I didn't catch the name of the show or the condition
that it was about. (pay attention much? - my excuse was I
was studying for a final exam in psychology tomorrow night,
but the truth is I was playing elist poster and reader...
damned addiction if you ask me. no offense meant) Anyway,
it was about a genetic condition in which people are born
deaf, and lose their sight over the course of about 30
years, ending up both blind and deaf. Oliver asked one
woman if she could have her sight back would she want it?
Oh yes, she replied, absolutely. Would she want to become
hearing? "No, certainly not." A young man, not yet blind,
but becoming so said the same thing. Wow. They both said
that they "were" deaf (part of their identity, and strongly
defended), but that in essence, they suffered from
blindness (well, they were both very positive about the
loss of sight, and willing to live their lives to the
fullest... cool people!) Anyway, I had an epiphany watching
this. This is how we are. We define ourselves by that which
we have experienced and therefore feel safe with and deny
and refuse anything outside that. (well, that's too strong,
because we are willing to grow, but mainly on our own
terms, defined by comfort level...)

I say yes! I want it all. I'm willing to not be, in order
to for it all... words fail me, but I'm sure you know what
I mean. Perhaps if I could say it in American Sign
Language, it would be more clear. I think I mean that
surrendering the limitation is worth experiencing all the
possibilities. (but I'm still testing this hypothesis...
anybody have a complete picture you want to share
(again...))?

JUDI RHODES

Great analogy Mark. I've always said that, you can't know
what you're missing unless you've tasted it. That's what
makes and drives a seeker and gives them the courage to
turn against themselves and go within, cause they really
know that there's more, not just a good idea from reading
books and listening to others tell about it. How many
people out of the masses are interested in spirituality,
not many. And how many of those have what it takes to put
anything on the line. Not many. Now I'm depressed. What a
world.

_______________________________________________________________________

JERRY KATZ

I think that what goes on at NDS is a high level of
'nondual professionalism' ALONG WITH the very private,
seemingly inappropriate humor, silliness and other activity
that normally would reside within an inner sanctum of this
community, if it existed, and one might say it exists
wherever two or members of the group come together.

My attitude is to not try to keep the backroom out of the
front room. The backroom or inner sanctum exists in many
forms. While there's no reason pretending it doesn't exist,
there's no reason to go on and on with dark or light humor
or inappropriate or dumb stuff. It's just that there's also
no reason to deny it or to take measures to keep it out.
It's a part of our culture. It gives us our unique flavor.

Now, if you were to join something like I AM list, which
was the original NDS, you would find, implicitly, that
backroom behavior is not appropriate and is not part of the
culture there, at all. In the last several weeks, I AM has
had mild activity, but steady and high level. I AM is NDS
with a dress code.

_______________________________________________________________________________

JERRY AND DAVE ON STAYS IN THE HOSPITAL

JERRY:Dave and I were talking about how a hospital stay can
open one to the nondual perspective. I found it valuable to
face with greatest possible awareness an exteme of human
pain, and then a few days in a hospital with nothing to
stare at but the beige curtain drawn before my bed.

DAVE:Intense contrast, an excellent enlightener. But even
for those that are "there", or have "been there" for a long
time, a subtler sense exists.

For the average person, they're just happy that "the pain
is gone", I mean I've been there, I go there every time I'm
getting over something, but at the same time, one can see
that maybe the beige curtain isn't all that different...

JERRY: (Oh, it wasn't that bad. There were visitors and
other people in the room. It was my choice to draw the
curtain. And, besides, my ordeal was never life
threatening.)

These last two nights at home I miss that beige curtain. I
have to draw another kind of curtain, and it is harder to
draw. However, I have know it all my life. I have intuited
it and been familiar with it for a long, long time. It is
never fully open anyway. Everything is touched by that
beige.

DAVE: Maybe my hardest times where when I got home, strange
effects of anti-biotics, anti-inflamitories and post-op
shock etc. The old body and mind pulling at all the
curtains it could find.

It's not pain, it's not the beige curtain, it's
disorientation, fear, and the worst, doubt! Maybe doubt is
a combination of this disorientation and fear. Being all
clogged up, it's hard to "see". It's like driving on the
freeway and the hood pops up. You have to go on memory, on
instinct!

JERRY: But pain opens that curtain. It's red and not beige.
I tried to pull the curtain closed anyway. I took the
challenge to draw the curtain. I thanked God for the pain;
I laughed at myself in the mirror on the way to the
Emergency Room; I asked myself if the pain was 'me' and it
wasn't but it hurt anyway!

DAVE: I'm not sure why this is so distinct, but it is. It's
certain that pain draws a definite curtain, but, as you
say, it is red, you can't miss it. It does challenge more
obviously. It's like a door, that you kick open, and it
slam bangs open, and there it is... open. But it's open.

JERRY: And then the operation was over and there was
nothing but beige curtain. Original nature. And it was what
was. It is what is. And through gratitude and inquiry in
the midst of pain (which lasted several hours and was
greater than kidney stone pain), I saw to it that the
curtain was always, always in sight.

DAVE: The beige curtain gives us the time to realize that
it's all one and the same. For those who have been blessed
with the whisper. I don't ask for beauty over pain, nor
deny pain over beauty. I thank God for the whisper.

JERRY: I know that what I've said is not scriptural in the
sense that there is only the Self, but I'm a guy not a
scripture.

DAVE: This post can only be such. The whisper is what makes
it different. Like swirls of pixie dust in Walt Disney
movies, the whisper touches the listeners souls, wakes
their spirit to the Oneness of Self. We see it, thank God,
and for those that don't, the pain will someday, go away.

JERRY: Also, Dave, I've looked at the website on the Amazon
tour. I would love to be a part of it, though it seems
expensive. Also, I'd want to see if we could get about ten
people together. Let's keep the options open.

DAVE: I figure that there's still good time, so combining
10 people or so and looking at other unbeknownst options,
who knows what could happen. I'm looking at something
personally that could generate "unforseen" capital...
speculative for the moment, but I'd be happy to throw it in
the pot if it materializes. The Amazon Tour is a
"powerhouse"! I'd bet that "gravity" is effected there. :-)

Here's the link for those that missed it.

http://www.amazon-lodge.com

In the mean time, I'll be doing my research on "alternate
power spots", just in case.

_______________________________________________________________________________

OH

Hello all dears:

Will be leaving again in a few days, so wanted to
contribute something before i left. Somebody is making up a
page, How Old Hag Came to the Dharma and a paragraph in it
tells about the Three Answers, so thought to share that for
those who don't know - and perhaps don't care ,^)) - how
they came about.

~~~~

One evening, Neem Karoli Baba came to call. He gave me one
of his famous bear hugs....ummmm, so delicious! Was all
snuggled up in his arms, but knew i had only a few moments
with him, so quickly began to ask some questions. Was
considering moving to California, so asked him, "Where
should i go?" And he said, "Go anywhere!"

Was thinking of quitting my job, so rushed on, "Well, what
should i do?" And he answered, "Do nothing!"

Thought i would get some advice about my love life, so
asked, "Who should i love, Rob or Fred?" And he answered,
"Love Everybody!"

So i call this, The Three Answers:

"Go Anywhere! Do Nothing! Love Everybody!"

_______________________________________________________________________________

SHANKAR (from I AM list)

Bolting the latch in one room, forgetting the body, the
Lord (Sri Ramana) abided in Silence- O, Parrot!-He was
beyond words and thought.

Translation of verse 20 in the 'Parrot-Eyed (Narration of
the) Life of Sri Ramana by Sri Sadhu Om Swamigal.

Striking and breaking (the latch), the members of the
household, entered the room (in which Sri Ramana was
abiding in Silence), and even after hitting (His) body
hard, (He) did not 'rise up'- O, Parrot!-(He was a)
complete Yogi.

Translation of verse 21 of the 'Parrot-Eyed (Narration of
the) Life of Sri Ramana' by Sri Sadhu Om Swamigal

LYNNE ASKED

Could you explain to me your understanding of the meaning
of this passage (and give a bit of context)? I would be
grateful.

SHANKAR RESPONDED

Verses 20 and 21 of the said text have to be read together,
to gather the context.

Actually, this relates to an episode in the Life of Sri
Bhagawan. When He was still a boy, once his parents and
brothers had gone out, leaving Him at home. He locked the
outside gate, and went into His room, and bolted it from
inside and went to sleep.

When His parents returned from outside, they kept knocking
at the gate for a long time. Then, they broke open the gate
and went inside the house. Then, they were knocking at His
room door for a long time. Since He did not come out even
after their knocking at His room door for a long time, they
became scared and broke open the room door also.

Then, they found Him 'sleeping' very deeply. It was after
some hours of repeated attempts at waking Him up, that He
awoke.

This 'deep sleep' was the only abnormal thing about Him.

As you know, the final state of realisation is described by
Bhagawan Sri Ramana Maharshi, as 'Waking-Sleep' or in
sanskrit as 'Jagrat-Sushupti'. Shankar,

_______________________________________________________________________________

LARRY BIDDENGER

I've been reading Stanley Sobottka's "A Course In
Consciousness", http://faculty.virginia.edu/consciousness/
Very refreshing, I skipped the physics and went straight to
the third part. This sheds, for me, a new light on the
utility of the understanding of nondoership which
surprisingly isn't depressing. It also describes
experiences of glimpsing egolessness which I've been
wondering what to do with; as Neem and oh said, do nothing.
As Ramesh would say, there is no doer, everything happens
spontaneously.

________________________________________________________________________________\
_

JABBA

The latest details and contacts for the Satsang Party in
Hyde Park are at:

http://www.egroups.com/files/jder/Satpublic.doc

__________________________________________________________________________


We are the Nonduality Generation.
http://www.nonduality.com

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Mark W. Otter wrote:

Hi Folks,

I just watched a fascinating show on PBS - Oliver Sachs, darn, I didn't
catch the name of the show or the condition that it was about. (pay
attention much? - my excuse was I was studying for a final exam in
psychology tomorrow night, but the truth is I was playing elist poster
and reader... damned addiction if you ask me. no offense meant)  Anyway,
it was about a genetic condition in which people are born deaf, and lose
their sight over the course of about 30 years, ending up both blind and
deaf.  Oliver asked one woman if she could have her sight back would she
want it?  Oh yes, she replied, absolutely.  Would she want to become
hearing? "No, certainly not."  A young man, not yet blind, but becoming
so said the same thing.  Wow. They both said that they "were" deaf (part
of their identity, and strongly defended), but that in essence, they
suffered from blindness (well, they were both very positive about the
loss of sight, and willing to live their lives to the fullest... cool
people!) Anyway, I had an epiphany watching this.  This is how we are.
We define ourselves by that which we have experienced and therefore feel
safe with and deny and refuse anything outside that. (well, that's too
strong, because we are willing to grow, but mainly on our own terms,
defined by comfort level...)

I say yes!  I want it all. I'm willing to not be, in order to for it
all... words fail me, but I'm sure you know what I mean.  Perhaps if I
could say it in American Sign Language, it would be more clear.   I
think I mean that surrendering the limitation is worth experiencing all
the possibilities. (but I'm still testing this hypothesis... anybody
have a complete picture you want to share (again...))?

Love, Mark

********
Great analogy Mark. I've always said that, you can't know what you're
missing
unless you've tasted it. That's what makes and drives a seeker and gives
them the courage to turn against themselves and go within, cause they
really know that
there's more, not just a good idea from reading books and listening to
others
tell about it. How many people out of the masses are interested in
spirituality,
not many.  And how many of those have what it takes to put anything on
the line. Not many. Now I'm depressed. What a world.


--
Happy Days,
Judi


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    Oh, my Love, my heart and mind are only longing for you
    -- the touch of your bliss --
    the electric flow of your lipid caress
    -- your engulfing penetration.

    Oh, flow into me my Love.
    Oh all of being -- through me
    to engorge the formless
    with the blissful reality of your being.

    All Things to thee sing
    of the Love of their essence,
    which you are.

    Oh slippery sensate genius,
    oh the quiddity of your caress
    -- like chain lightning within my inner-most reaches.

    I ride upon the physical reality of your ecstasy
    to the self which is beyond myself.

    In my highest moment
    I know that I live only for you.
    Flow through me that I may enter your flow
    -- my sweet Life of Life.

    In you I find my existence and dissolution.

    To Thee I sing -- Thy song I am.

    The multiplicity of Your oneness
    is beyond the reckoning of all minds.
    Your grace I hold more precious
    than self.

    My praises of Thee -- for me.
    I thank you for this
    song to you --
    your gift to me.


    (c) Carlos Dwa 2000

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dear Carlos,

Very beautiful ode.
But there is always the seperation
between Love and the one who
experiences Love? :-)

Cheers :-)

KKT

--------------------------------------------------------
and there is always separation between lover and beloved and if it
were any other way, life would not be worth living.


Longing for the union
that will never be.
such sweetness,
such ecstatic torment,
rending the heart with
delicious anguish.
only a fool
would ask
to be blessed
with such madness.
...........matthew


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Papaji made it clear in the book

Nothing ever happened that those he sent to teach

not only are not enlightened, they are not

even temporarily enlightened.

#1. Papaji when asked about those he sent to teach.
He said that the purpose was to have them point the
way to Lucknow not to pose as awakenened teachers.

#2.  Papaji said that many can fool others into
thinking they are liberated but they are the false
coin.

#3. When asked about the experiences that so many
people had in Lucknow. He said they were false
experiences.

#4. when asked why did you give them false
experiences?
He said to get the leeches off my back.

#5. Papaji said he met only two Jnani's in his
lifetime. One was Ramana Maharshi. The other was a man
who appeared from out of the jungle into the town of
Krishnagiri.

#6. Ramana Maharshi said that there is a false sense
of  liberation that aspirants reach that very few ever
go beyond.

#7. Ramana Maharshi wrote: "By him alone whose saved
himself, can other folk be freed, the help of others
is as if, the blind, the blind would lead.

If people would choose the source of their teachings
as carefully, or more carefully than they would choose
who was going to do brain surgery on them the
spiritual teaching world would be turned upside down.

However spirituality is about preserving the ego
notion except in very rare cases. It is about people
who lie every second to themselves pretending they are
being honest.

The ego notion has millions of strategies to preserve
itself. Seeking out those who have not yet ended the
ego notion to be one's spiritual teacher is one such
strategy.

Listening to the opinions of those who have not yet
removed the ego notion is another such strategy. Oh
what the heck lets just call it ego notion
preservation strategy #864,393,392 that is eight
hundred sixty four million , three hundred ninety
three thousand and three hundred and ninety two.

Every word, every act of a human being including
almost all spiritual aspirants is for the purpose of
preserving the ego notion. That is why Papaji met only
two Jnani's in his life because it is so extremely
rare that the ego notion illusion is ever removed.
Humans lie. And they bring that ego preservation lie
to their their spirituality, including to the very
teachings that are aimed at the ego notions end.

That is why people read a commentator on a sages
teachings. To get the distorted view. However do they
tell themselves I am reading a commentators opinion to
get a distorted view? Of course not.  They will find
one of a thousand thoughts that would support their
reading a commenatators view.

Since most reach a false sense of liberation
(see #7 above) there are so many who think they are
liberated and qualified to teach. And the ego notion
seeks out these teachers except in very rare cases.

I do not intend to respond to insincere responses to
this posting. I may not even respond to the sincere
responses. As I would rather say, read the Teachings
of Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Yoga
Vasistha, the living Sages Russ and Nome, the
Asthvakra Gita, the Avadhuta Gita, the Ribhu Gita. And
this time instead of picking quotes that support some
favored view, take a look at the whole body of the
Teachings. Find out what Ramana had to Say for more
than 50 years. Not just a quote that supports a view,
find out what did he say the most? what did he say
over and over? Take a look at the whole. Take a look
at the question the questioner asked, and how the
answered varied depending on if the questioner
suggested an answer in his or her question or really
asked an open question seeking Bhagavan Ramana's
answer.

Papaji made it clear ( see items #1 through 5 above)
that his way never ended the ego notion in anyone. So
guess what it is that seeks out a way that did not
work? Of course the ego notion in its desire to
preserve itself seeks out a way that did not work.

What has worked is the  method that Ramana Maharshi
Advocated and it is very different from the make no
effort way of Papaji.

Papaji in his kindness and compassion gave these
strong harsh warnings in the book nothing ever
happened .  How many people really looked at them and
listened?

I rather miss the physical form. It was such a shock
the news of the death of Papaji's body.  Even though
his body was old.  In the announcements in the week or
two prior to the death of his body at Satsang Bhavan
in Lucknow they said his condition was stable.
So it was a shock. And to see the body being brought
in only a couple of hours after learning the news made
it all even more shocking. And the cremation the next
day, it seemed so unbelielable so much happening in
such a short time.

Papajis was so great, but who is honest enough to hear
his warnings about all these ambassadors? And not only
the Ambassadors, but  hundreds of thousands of humans
deluded into a false sense that the ego illusion has
ended.

The items numbered 1 through 7 above all have a
relation. such compassion was shown by Bhagavan Ramana
and Papaji to warn against the false.

All of the above has to do with using discernment,
using discrimination, honesty and intensity of
purpose.

Just consider the possibility that every single act,
thought, feeling, desire , you have every moment of
every day including most of your "spiritual"
activities is motivated by the ego notion to preserve
itself and is part of a lie.  Then examine each
thought and each action and ask yourself "how is the
ego notion preserving itself now?" "How is the ego
notion lying now?"

--uarelove


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dear Leela Family,

I just returned from the Silent Retreat with Gangaji and
Eli in Baden-Baden, Germany. 580 people came together for a
week of deep realization. The silence was so profound at
times that I could hear the trees singing Silence.

Baden-Baden is a small town built around a healing spring.
It was first used by the Celts and then the Romans built
the first bath on that spot a few thousand years ago. I
have never been in the middle of a town where people can
come together, men and women, young and old, to bath as
naked babies in the holy water. All around were signs
reminding us to be silent. To sit silently with everyone in
the warm waters was a revelation.

Baden Baden is only a few minutes from the border with
France and after the retreat we drove to Strasbourg for
lunch one afternoon. It did not matter the country or the
people, it was clear that consciousness was seeing itself
and loving itself in all its forms.

The first day of the retreat we were issued passes that
gave us discounts at many of the local places, like the
baths. The passes had a picture of Gangaji and Eli and a
quote from Papaji on the back.

That first day two new books came out in German and debuted
at the retreat. One is the German translation of Gangaji's
newest book, Freedom and Resolve. The other is called the
Flame of Freedom, and is a book of interviews and photos of
Eli and Gangaji. A three tape video set of the interviews
was released as a companion to the book.

Gangaji and Eli worked so beautifully together. With full
love and respect one would sometimes complete the other's
sentence. They played together and with us and revealed the
teaching in the form of two humans in loving partneship.
Many people were moved to see a man defer to his partner in
loving devotion. Gangaji's deep purity and Eli's lazer
clarity worked so well together in exposing the lies and
revealing the truth.

One evening we all chanted Ramana's holy name for over half
an hour. This was a new experience for me and for many of
the people in the retreat. The bliss of Ramana broke open
so many hearts that evening in a completely unexpected way.

It was my first time in Europe but it seemed so familiar. I
have been in all of Gangaji and Eli's retreats together but
it all seemed so new.

I hope you find this sharing useful.

love, kris

--
We are the Nonduality Generation.
http://www.nonduality.com



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The following was received:

FREEDOM The mind is an almost unbroken current of thoughts
and images careening from past to future. We can see this
for ourselves, just by watching our own mind. Who, or what,
is the watcher of the mind? It is the mind's own mother,
the pure awareness from which the mind is born. Awareness
embraces the mind as a loving mother holds her child.
Awareness itself is clear and silent. Living each moment
from the silent clarity of pure awareness is called
freedom.

LONGING We can immediately fulfill our deepest longing for
freedom, clarity, and joy. All we have to do is change our
understanding. We do not have to search for fulfillment; it
is within the very eye of the longing-storm. Don't look
away from the longing towards another country, look
directly into it. Throw yourself into it and love it with
every cell of your being. Loving the longing without the
tiniest reservation is fulfillment.

INTEGRITY Integrity means to be whole and undivided-to be
authentic-as when our true heart speaks through our
thoughts, words, and actions. If our experience of inner
truth is not made real through our actions, we will lose
the power of authenticity and feel the twinge of
self-betrayal. Realization must be demonstrated in even the
simplest of our actions. Then we are whole and undivided,
and not just thinking we are.

KILLING THE MIND A workshop participant asked how he could
"kill his mind." I asked why he wanted to go to all that
trouble? Why wage war on the poor little thing? After all,
isn't there enough room in reality for a mind? And, a mind
is a useful thing, as long as we don't use it incorrectly.
My mind doesn't bother me as long as I don't contract and
become what my mind is thinking or believing or perceiving.
If we live from a big enough space of awareness, our mind
exists to scale, like a single flower in an endless
mountain meadow.

ATTENTION Our mind is usually focused on our creation, not
on the creator. Images, thoughts, beliefs, identities-all
these are created and sustained by the mind. If we begin
paying attention to the creator rather than the created,
something marvellous happens. Another world appears, one in
which silence and beauty run rampant through the streets of
every city and town.

PRESENCE When we are quiet, a Presence can be felt. It is
the single soul of all people. It seems to be from within,
but it is equally without. This Presence has character, and
the words we might use to describe that character include
loving, generous, peaceful, clear, caring, respectful. To
the degree that our behavior reflects these qualities is
the degree to which that Presence is alive within us.

CONFUSION I can't count how many times people tell me they
are confused about who they are, where they want to go, or
what they want to do. Their confusion is never true. We are
never truly confused. We are only afraid, or deaf. When you
feel confused, sit down, be still, listen, accept, and then
act. That is all. Listen deeply, accept honestly, act
fully. Confusion cannot survive in this equation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ROBERT RABBIN
Voicemail: 415.705.0807
E-mail:  robrabbin@...
Web site:  http://www.robrabbin.com

Mailing Address:
20 Sunnyside Ave., # A-118
Mill Valley, CA 94941 USA


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I met Swami Muktananda once and upon being introduced he
asked, through a translator, what I did and I said,
"Nothing." But it was twenty years ago so doing nothing
wasn't as big as it is today. Today doing nothing is a very
big deal, it's a  thriving, bustling industry. Anyway, he
said, "Do something." So years later I start this list. And
now you tell me to do nothing. The Guru business...sheesh!

Love,
Jerry

----------------------------------------------
There is really no conflict in why muktananda told you and what neem
karoli told OH. That is, if there is a foundation of commitment to
him. What Muktananda said, was to you and for you and no one else.
However if muktananda is just another guru in a long ( or short) list
of "who i have been with" then there will be confusion because this
one says this, and that one says something else, and there is no real
ground of relationship and commitment with any of them.
..............matthew

Yes, I think that's the humor of Guru-talk and I'm wondering
if that talk is different than the talk of time and
occurrence, or of poetry. Really, its only that commitment
you speak of, which is to ground of being, which assures
that language will be heard as intended. Muktananda's
'something', Neem Karoli's 'nothing', and Gene Poole's
'abiding', are not three different things.

Jerry


@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@\
@@@@@@



You know what I find interesting is that there really is no enlightening
anybody else. People are gonna get it when they're gonna get it. And no
one knows how or when that is going to occur. The spiritual path is each
person's individual life itself, like a fruit on a tree each one ripens
and falls. In other words, it's a totally private affair. There is no
teaching. Should come as a shock to some of you guys who are looking for
a teaching, or even worse, those of you who think you've found one!!! A
sobering affair.

Good Morning!
Judi


@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@\
@@@@@@


Michael Read:


Destruction

Seek you said
And I will find

Knock you said
And the door will be opened

Ask you said
And it will be given

You tricked me
Didn't you - bastard!

This isn't the first time!
Countless billions of lives

Oh you - fucker!
Are you enjoying yourself?

What did I find
Only you

The door opened
Onto a chasm

The gift
Was unbearable

You have destroyed me
Saying you and I are one

Thanks
Much appreciated!


@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@\
@@@@@@


> Marcia wrote:
>
>
>
<snip>

> For the longest time I was perplexed by the following:
>
> Mathew 13:44
>
> "Again, the kingdom of heaven
> is like unto treasure hid in a field;
> the which when a man hath found,
> he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth
> and selleth all that he hath, and
> buyeth that field."
>
> What perplexed me was why "hideth."

The "hideth" is perplexing, in this case I feel
that Matthew, speaking to "non-converts" was possibly
using their words to heighten the significance of
the find. Hide/protect, until resources could be
amassed to "acquire".

> That is until I realized what he hideth it
> from and that is his ego. If he didn't
> hide it, the ego would grab hold and
> begin to lie. It has to be hidden from himself.
> A man can't let the left hand know what the
> right hand is doing.

The ego lies, not because it has the treasure,
but because it doesn't seem to be experiencing
the things that others who have (supposedly)
found the treasure say they are experiencing.

The ego lies when it has found a field
which doesn't seem to have the treasure.

I'm sure the ego hardly knows it's lying, on the contrary,
it is confused because it's sure that the treasure
is there.

When finally, the ego admits that it is responsible
for hiding the treasure to protect itself,
only then will it become ready to sacrific itself
to expose the treasure to all.

The field is the ego's creation, and the ego's very
substance. The ego cannot have nor buy the treasure.
The ego is separate from it.

Liberation is not having to lie,
is freedom from human influence,
is confiding in Self completely.

>
> In terms of liberation, perhaps there are two
> liberations. The first liberation is finding the
> field in the first place or perhaps having the
> field find him and the second liberation has
> to do with selling all he has and buying the
> field. Perhaps most perceive the first liberation
> as all there is.
>
> Marcia
>

A born liar,
Dave


@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@\
@@@@@@


Arend Versteege writes:

The first quote is from Robert Adams, a devotee of Ramana
Maharshi. He passed away about six months before Papaji.
Just before he passed away, he wrote me this in a personal
letter. Robert always insisted on a low profile but was
truly an extraordinary Sage and Jnani. When I returned from
India after being with Papaji for a few months, Robert
moved to my small town in N. Arizona, Sedona. I was very
fortunate to be in Satsang with 2 giants of Advaita in
Ramana's"lineage". I presently reside in the Netherlands.

Robert Adams "There is no-one bound and no-one striving to
be free. Nothing to strive for, nothing to let go of. You
are the One Self. Consciousness is all there is, and You
are That. All you have to do is understand this. Accept
this and be free. Believe this. There is no you and the
Self. There is only the Self. Everything happens by itself.
The personal I is an illusion, an hallucination. The
so-called world, other people, the Universe, are all your
projection, your creation. Do not believe in the mortal
dream. Love your Self. Bow to your Self. Be your Self."

Arend "The grace I received from Papaji was to see how
utterly self serving I was even in my most supposedly
selfless altruism. This painful awareness simply arose in
the process of Satsang. The setup was that I could not
regress back into forgetfulness while also recognizing that
any effort to do something about it was just another
movement of ego. I was caught, immobilized, and sank ever
deeper into the sewer of my self but to run away would have
been cowardly and stupid. It lead me to the only doorway
remaining, to surrender everything at the threshold of the
Unknown. Such is the way of Grace sometimes."

LARRY

Here's a snippet from Sobottkaji:
If I am not anything, then what am I? The answer is simple: I am the
pure Awareness that is aware of all things, and the pure Presence that
is the Presence in all things. I am the Awareness of Presence, and the
Presence of Awareness. What could be more simple, and yet so profound
and so liberating
------------------------------
What does "the pure Presence that is the Presence in all things" mean,
and how can it be "not anything"?
~~~~
JUDI
********* Uh, duh???

__________________________________________________

Judi Rhodes wrote:
>
> What's Tonglen? Never heard of it?

Jerry:
Other than experiencing it through those who know it, there
is an article and excellent links at
http://www.nonduality.com/tonglen.htm

__________________________________________________________

MARCIA

My father has been dead now almost two months.
It is really different to have my parents dead. Both
of them. I never really grieved for my mom as I had
my dad and all his needs. Now they are both gone.
It is strange to walk the planet knowing neither one of
them is here.

They were so much a part of my life. I never moved
away from them. I never really left home in a way.
Now they are gone and it is a much different world
without them. There is a big hole in my heart and yet
in a way they are not gone. I don't feel as if I will
never see them again cause I have them right here.
But I miss their immediate presence.

It gives me a much broader outlook on life. I see
life in a much bigger way. The time expanse of
life seems all as one whole. I travel from childhood
to old age in a seamless way. It is all one whole.

I feel very honored to have been present at each
of their deaths. It wasn't smooth. I mean John
(my husband) and I were not even sure my dad
was dead. It was one of those life situations where
nothing prepares you for it. But we managed. We
did the right thing. We made him look good. We
got the kids up and we each said good-bye.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GILL EARDLEY

Rainer Maria Rilke on the death of his father:

*Within my deepest hope*

As for myself, what has died for me has died, so to speak, into my
own heart: when I looked for him, the person who vanished has
collected himself strangely and so surprisingly in me, and it was so
moving to feel he was now only there that my enthusiasm for serving
his new existence, for deepening and glorifying it, took the upper
hand almost at the very moment when pain would otherwise have
invaded and devastated the whole landscape of my spirit. When I
remember how I - often with the utmost difficulty in understanding
and accepting each other - loved my father! Often, in childhood, my
mind became confused and my heart grew numb at the mere thought
that someday he might no longer be; my existence seemed to me so
wholly conditioned through him (my existence, which from the start
was pointed in such a different direction!) that his departure was to
my innermost self synonymous with my own destruction.. . , but so
deeply is death rooted in the essence of love that (if only we are
cognizant of death without letting ourselves be misled by the
uglinesses and suspicions that have been attached to it) it nowhere
contradicts love: where, after all, can it drive out someone whom we
have carried unsayably in our heart except into this very heart,
where would the "idea" of this loved being exist, and his unceasing
influence  (: for how could that cease which even while he lived with
us was more and more independent of his tangible presence).., where
would this always secret influence be more secure than in us?! Where
can we come closer to it, where more purely celebrate it, when obey
it better, than when it appears combined with our own voices, as if
our heart had learned a new language, a new song, a new strength!

(To Countess Margot Sizzo-Noris-Crouy, January 6, 1923)

Allspirit Website
http://www.allspirit.co.uk

____________________________________________________________

MARCIA and DAVE (Manchine)

> Marcia wrote:
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> I do get identified when I go to talk about what I see.
> It doesn't make what I see any less real; it just
> means ego grabs it up. I am the mouse in the corner
> who always wants to please. I take care of people
> and their needs, most of the time because of ego, but
> underneath it is part of my essential nature.

It's a real bitch, we, all of us, are born with the problem.
That's what makes it so complicated. We inherit this stuff. And to
top it all off, we're made innocent. There's nothing we can do
about it until it's too late. If we get to where we see that
the ego's getting in the way, we start to feel guilty or
try to make excuses for it. That is normal! It's part of the
essential nature of all individuals.

>
> Anyway.......the ego is blind to the treasure. When the
> ego sees a paradise it is still ego. Only the ego is interested
> in self-satisfaction. The treasure is not personal. Man's
> personal paradise fantasy is still man putting himself in the
> middle. It is ego that the treasure has to be hideth from.
> And not by ego.

I completely agree with most of what you say here, except the
first sentence, and the last two.

"The ego is blind to the treasure", seems to coincide with the
sentences that follow, and in that sense I agree. Where ego is NOT
blind to the treasure, is in the fact that it knows that the
treasure can only exist without the ego. I think we have to remove
a disguise right now! The treasure is "the kingdom of heaven" or
Self. The image of ego and ego's world hides Self.

Why does Self have to be hidden from the ego? Because exposing it
would destroy ego?! There are thousands of people who don't even
want to talk about this, because they "know", deep down inside
that it's threatening!

By all means, expose the ego to Self, I say!

>
> Gurdjieff said man gets things upside down. I am coming
> more and more each day to see the truth in this.

Man will stand on his head to make things look safe.

>
> I "take the bait" by taking personally what people say to
> me. That is my ego. I was an only child; no siblings.
> My parents were older. I never learned to fight.  I do
> back down. It is easy to punch my lights out. I am one
> of those sensitive kinds.
>
> The difficulty I can see when I read your reply back to
> me is that many things are mixed together. Your thinking
> is not clear. You are trying to prove a point and are grabbing
> whatever is at had. It paints a nice picture but it doesn't
> feel real.

I try my best, it's a very confusing point, and the ego is a
very adept opponent with every thing on its side. One cannot
help but accept all the reasons one has for responding as they do.
It's all we've ever, ever known.

There's a consolation. Many have made the sacrifice, and can
say with all honesty that they were fools for not doing it sooner.

The ego amplifies "things". From the viewpoint of the ego, there's
a lot of things to give up. From the viewpoint of Self we're suffering
for nothing.

__________________________________________________________


NOTE:
There is a lengthy continuing discussion of differences between Ramana and
Papaji's
recommended  teaching methods with regard to self-inquiry, ego preservation
strategies and effort vs "no effort." If this interests you, you may want to
read
those messages at egroups. They seem to this editor anyway too many to include
here.

________________________

XAN sends

You are joyous and alive by His breath.
You move by the power of His love.


Rumi

********************************************************************************\
*****

JERRY KATZ:

Tasting I AM

All I know is that I've sat in my room and been face to face
with nothing but myself and it has seemed like the only real
thing there is. I have valued and trusted it beyond
anything. Though there are endless attempts to describe that
communion with self, they all fail. At best they are
scriptural. But they all fail. One fails, stumbles and falls
to the ground. Whoever looks most graceful falling down,
looks most graceful getting back up, but it's still
beautiful failure. Even scripture is beautiful failure. The
only success happens when one is alone, tasting I AM.

Jerry

=======================================================================

JERRY KATZ concluded:


"Men are from earth. Women are from earth. Deal with it."

Thanks to M on the Bhairava list.

=======================================================================

ANDREW MACNAB wrote:

The question "Who am I" is the ultimate question. "What am I doing?
Where am I?" like
all other questions break down into it if followed to their end. It
is the self
referential existential question for the doer, the ego. When its
unanswer is seen and
it is thereby undermined, there is silence.
    Silence is at the core of all the teachings. Ramana emphasized
silence more even
than self enquiry. Self enquiry is doing. It is a way of exhausting
doing. Silence is
non-doing. The true guru, the universal inner guru, is the silent
one.


"Silence is like the even flow of electrical current.
Speech is like obstructing the current for lighting
and other purposes. However much a jnani might talk,
he is still the Silent One. However much he might work,
he is still the Quiet One."  R. M.

Another point emphasised by Ramana is that the jnani sees everyone as
a jnani. Here
again, silence, silent satsangh is the only true community of jnanis,
and the question
"Who am I" leads to the doers end.
Advocating the asking of a question is the illusion of the guru's
words, it takes an
illusion to satisfy an illusion. The illusion of the doer is like a
hunger which is
satisfied by the illusion of the words.
    Ramana does not advocate asking the question over and over so that
it becomes like
a mantra or a prayer. The question is only asked once, and it
continues under its own
power. So really as soon as the question is truly asked, the words
are eaten, that is
the end of the doer. The asking of the question is the doer's final
act.

andrew

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
And JUDI RHODES commented:


****** No. "Who am I" is really the answer to tbe question "What am I
doing".
"Doing" is the "I" itself. The "doing" and the "I" are one and the
same
which
is just the activity of seeking, a notion of an "entity" that thinks
it's
gonna get something or go somewhere. No, there is no one that is
gonna
get
enlightened. Sounds like a darn good idea though doesn't it? :-)

Judi

=======================================================================

ED ARRONS with LARRY BIDDINGER:

--- In NondualitySalon@egroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote:
> Here's a snippet from Sobottkaji:
> If I am not anything,then what am I? The answer is simple:
> I am the pure Awareness that is aware of all things, and
> the pure Presence that is the Presence in all things. I am
> the Awareness of Presence, and the Presence of Awareness.
> What could be more simple, and yet so profound and so
> liberating
> ------------------------------
> What does "the pure Presence that is the Presence in all
> things" mean, and how can it be "not anything"?
>
> Larry
========
'Presence' is usually understood as the essence of something
which is being sensed.  Thus, "the pure Presence that is the
Presence in all things" might be the ultimate Essence, refering
back to Pure Awareness.  A case of uncertainty covering all the
bases with a touch of doubletalk.  :) Ed

=======================================================================

MICHAEL READ:

Self

All is Self
That is All!

Supreme Essence
Is the Presence
Looking out of eyes
Hearing into ears

So simple
So difficult
Self playing
With Self

Hey, Self!
Get hand out of pants!


I LOVE YOU

I Love You
Warts and wrinkles and all
In drama and despair
In laughter and love
In the good
In the evil
In the dance eternal
I Love You
One and All
In your greatest works
In your glorious failures
Your Presence is undying
Your Love has no qualities
I Love You
I love your searching and seeking
I love your finding and being
Your beauty is terrifying
Your terror is beauty
You lift me up
You dash me down
You create me
You destroy me
You keep me in darkness
You keep me in light
Your Presence is undying
Your Love has no qualities
I Love You.

HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!

Peace - Michael

=======================================================================

Some excerpts from the thread on Papaji and Bhagavan Ramana:

MARK OTTER and JUDI with BOB ROSE commented on the following statement:

Self Inquiry wrote:

> Yet another difference between
>
> Ramana Maharshi and Papaji:
>
> Papaji recommended no effort.
>
> Bhagavan Ramana recommended intense effort.
>
> --uarelove
>

So do you mean that this is an either or situation?  I understand
that
virtuosos (for example musicians) need to practice and practice and
practice
until they get to a point where the playing itself takes over and
then
getting out of the way is the way to a virtuosic performance.  Could
this
resolve the apparent paradox?  Ramana gave great advice to everyone.
(when
the practice becomes no longer necessary, the surrender to natural
playing
happens anyway.) Perhaps Papaji was so enthused about this that he
attempted
the direct teaching.  This may well have been fine for those who had
been
practicing long enough anyway, and it may well be that the advice
that
others needed was not offered. (can a being for whom love comes
naturally
make mistakes?)

someone who hasn't even started practicing yet, for whom love is an
abstract
thought rarely even entertained,
Mark

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
BOB ROSE with JUDI:

Homer Simpson summed it up nicely:

  "Trying is the first step towards failure."

Bob

> ******** LOL! Homer said that?? If anyone would know, he would! :-)
>
********
The question I think should be, is not "who am I", but "what am I
doing?"
(...)

I think it is a betterquestion though. A person can sink their teeth
into that, insteadof flying off into never never land with all their
speculations of how wonderfully wonderful they are and how everything is
so wonderfully wonderful. :-)

Ain't it rich?
Love much,
Judi

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
MATHEW FILES:

mathew files wrote:
> --- In NondualitySalon@egroups.com, Self Inquiry
> <uarelove@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Bhagavan Ramana gave a method that has suceeded
> >
> > on many occaisions, one of those being Papaji.
> >
> > --uarelove
> >
> >
> ---------------------------------------------
> Is there objective proof of success?

No nothing has ever been prooven objectively, if by
proof ones means verification of Truth.  Not only in
spiritual subjects, this also applies to all subjects.
Proof is when thought is satisfied with a conclusion,
a belief. That proof is not Truth, it is an opinion.
Only one in whom the ego notion has ended can
recognize one in whom the ego notion has ended.
(...)

....matthew

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
And MARK OTTER commented here:


Dear matthew,

Do you flinch?  Does the whisper of ege ever cause you to pull back?
Does fear ever affect your equanimity?  Telling stories about others
is
a distraction unless it directly affects this process of responding
to
fear.  Is disagreeing with a story the act of love or the act of
fear? I
don't know the answers to these questions.  I sense often when I make
a
response, such as this one I am typing now, that there is some fear
there, pushing the keys.

trying not to flinch, and reaching out to touch others with the
flinch
reflex,
Mark

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
More from MARK:

They stand so close together there is no room to flinch.  We have all
been
in non-flinching mode, so it is not so hard to practice.  Do whatever
lets
you stand there with the flinch unneeded.  (not firmly held against
the
flinch - that's the wrong way, but with the flinch so exposed, so raw
and
vulnerable, that the warmth of God rushes in and  makes it silent and
full.)  you know.  do this yourself and let others find it too. don't
question their findings if questioning their findings will make them
pull
back and flinch again. that's the objection to this talk. it does
this to
me.  no wait, that didn't feel right... okay, I will acknowledge that
I once
talked about relaxation and how difficult it is to relax further when
one
seems relaxed and how it often is not complete, and tensing up can
reveal
the direction again, allowing further relaxation.  perhaps that is
what is
being pointed to here.  perhaps tales of failure are meant to
perpetuate
failure.  it doesn't matter what folks are pointing towards.  What
does
matter is how i hear them and what happens next... so point in any
direction
you want, and I will feel my way forward trusting in my Self.

Love, Mark


Self Inquiry wrote:

> Only one in whom the ego notion has ended can
> recognize one in whom the ego notion has ended.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
UARELOVE and MATHEW:

M: And.....if the guru did refute someones
> claims (as papaji
> did) that might not mean that the person isn't
> realized. (Then again
> it might). Who's to say? You? Me? (hoo haa).

Here we get to the crux of making simple things very
complicated unnecessarily.  The Sages have chosen to
use words. Consider the example of Nisargadatta as to
just taking a Sage words literally and simply. (...)

Nisargadatta said:

I obeyed him because I trusted him.

(...)

I trusted my guru.

What he told me to do, I did.

Whatever happened, I would turn away

my attention from it and remain with the

sense I am,

it may look too simple,

even crude.

Read part two at:

http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/umbada/iam.htm

and see the example of Nisargadatta just taking

his Guru's words literally, and simply without

interpreting them.

If one interprets them or makes it complicated

that opens the door for the ego notion to change and

distort everything.

(...)

--uarelove

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
And YOUARELOVE continued:

Although doubting can be a great aid in the beginning

and it may be wise to doubt all spiritual Teachers

and supposed Sages and to check out many options

etc. That same doubt can be an ego notion preservation

strategy if it continues forever.

After one has done the above described due

dilligence, and found a Sage that one

has the most confidence in,

including confidence that the ego notion

has ended in them, then it is time to stop doubting.

And it is time to stop the spiritual mixture,

the spiritual soup of many paths.

Then the Trust that Nisargadatta mentions,

and his taking his Guru's words quite literally

and simply become the valuable aids,

even more valuable than the doubt was.

--uarelove

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
JERRY KATZ commented:

Wiser than the sages.

Self Inquiry wrote:
>
> The ego notion has a tendency in most humans to think
>
> it is wiser than the Sages.
>
> --uarelove

It has a tendency to think all kinds of things. The ego
imagines a competition and imagines outcomes of that
competition.

Has any Sage ever claimed wisdom? Seeing that no Sage has
ever claimed wisdom, there's really no competition. Joshua
Pritikin has clearly pointed that out in his work on
competition and nonduality. I always knew to trust my own
direction. No wisdom by any Sage is superior to that. No
scripture is superior to that. If anything, Wisdom and
Scriptures are inferior to that, but since they are not
competing with me, nor I with them, there is neither
inferiority nor superiority.

Jerry

The Mechanism of Competition
http://www.why-compete.org

=======================================================================

JERRY KATZ:

Old friend Alan Kuntz submitted this link to KundaliniHeat
list:

http://search.npr.org/cf/cmn/cmnps05fm.cfm?SegID=32491

A National Public Radio interview with William Segal, a man
in his 90's who has studied Zen and Gurdjieff.

Thanks, Alan.

Jerry

=======================================================================

UARELOVE:

15 new links have been added to the

Spiritual Net Directory in the last few days.

There are now 27

links to where on the web you can read

the Teachings of:

Ramana Maharshi

Adi Sankara

Yoga Vasistha

Nisargadatta Maharaj

The Ashtavkra Gita

The Ribhu Gita

The Avadhuta Gita

other ancient texts of Advaita Vedanta

the living Enlightened Sages Russ and Nome

Bodhidharma

Hui Neng

Hsin-hsing-ming

and  Vimalkirti Nirdesa Sutra:  click:

http://home.talkcity.com/GaiaWay/infinite_freedom

with love,

uarelove

=======================================================================

The day before there was also a very merry unbirthday of BRUCE!:

(...) Please do notice that every day
is a new birth -- so much better
than a mere sun-cycle count (...)
So then, as per Sri
Madhatterji Maharaj:

"A very merry unbirthday
  To me
  To who?
  To me
  Oh, you

  A very merry unbirthday
  To you
  Who, me?
  To you
  Oh, me

  Let's all congratulate us with another cup of tea
  A very merry unbirthday to you

  Now statistics prove
  Prove that you've one birthday
  Imagine just one birthday every year
  Ah, but there are 364 unbirthdays
  Precisely why we're gathered here to cheer

  A very merry unbirthday
  To me?
  To you
  A very merry unbirthday
  For me?
  For you
  Now blow the candle out, my dear
  And make your wish come true
  A very merry unbirthday to you"

BRUCE also recommended:

I highly recommend the free
funds transfer service
available at www.paypal.com

=======================================================================

XAN:

To see god is to be God.
There is no all apart from God
  for him to pervade.
He alone is.

- Sri Ramana Maharshi

EGO NOTION:

JERRY:
I subscribe to the methods given by Ramana and Nisargadatta.
However, because they discovered them and had bestowed upon
them the Grace which would allow them to teach the methods
to the world, and to teach them simply by their presence,
doesn't mean they hold an exclusive primary knowledge of
those methods, leaving others to hold a secondary knowledge.

Very many can go back to childhood and recall a time when
they asked a question similar to 'Who am I?'. That too is a
Grace bestowed upon an individual. It may not lead to a
flowering on the order of Ramana, or a facility with words
on the order of Nisargadatta, but it can be valued,
contemplated, meditated upon, and one can in time determine
that it is a teaching or method on the order of what Sages
teach.

It doesn't automatically mean that a person who discovers
the inquiry independently is as spiritually developed, as
smart, wise, charismatic, intelligent, insightful, useful,
powerful, beautiful, graceful, impactful as a Sage.

It only means they independently discovered the key to the
Self. That independent discovery is going to be as powerful
than anything a Sage says or is, because it is a direct
teaching. It's direct knowledge. It is the Sage.

I have experienced that is was Rajneesh (Osho) and Adi Da
(Da Free John) who cleared the garbage away so that I could
seriously re-visit my childhood experiences in which inquiry
was discovered and mantras were given. Those men were the
garbage men. Ramana and Nisargadatta were already at my
heart. They were what I already was. Rajneesh and Adi Da
showed me that. In current days, as a more refined 'garbage'
constantly imposes itself, I have found that the people on
the lists have replaced Rajneesh and Adi Da. Gene Poole has
made a great effort, publicly and privately, in that regard.

grateful to everyone and everything,


MARK:
Thank you, Jerry.  I found a great deal of teaching and love in the
popular music of my time.  I've learned much of what I know from rock
and roll...

Let's Get Together

      Love is but the song we sing,
      And fear's the way we die
      You can make the mountains ring
      Or make the angels cry
      Know the dove is on the wing
      And you need not know why

      C'mon people now,
      Smile on your brother
      Ev'rybody get together
      Try and love one another right now

      Some will come and some will go
      We shall surely pass
      When the one that left us here
      Returns for us at last
      We are but a moments sunlight
      Fading in the grass

      C'mon people now,
      Smile on your brother
      Ev'rybody get together
      Try and love one another right now

      C'mon people now,
      Smile on your brother
      Ev'rybody get together
      Try and love one another right now

      (instrumental)

      C'mon people now,
      Smile on your brother
      Ev'rybody get together
      Try and love one another right now


      If you hear the song I sing,
      You will understand
      You hold the key to love and fear
      All in your trembling hand
      Just one key unlocks them both
      It's there at your command

      C'mon people now,
      Smile on your brother
      Ev'rybody get together
      Try and love one another right now

      C'mon people now,
      Smile on your brother
      Ev'rybody get together
      Try and love one another right now

      C'mon people now,
      Smile on your brother
      Ev'rybody get together
      Try and love one another right now

      Right now
      Right now!

Perhaps trying is not the final step in the dance, but I don't care.  I
love you anyway.  All of you.



UARELOVE:

Some Vernon Howard quotes:

474. "The invented self is rudeness itself."

475. "There is a definite connection between
mental sickness and bad manners.
Watch for the connection.
As you mingle with people,
watch how neurosis frequently lashes out at people
with contemptuous behaviour
and outrageous demands.
The problem is that mental sickness
never sees bad manners as bad manners,
which is what keeps it sick and bad."

476. "Unpleasant behaviour is sick behaviour.
Few people want to think about this fact.
Unpleasant people are sick people.
You know the thousand varieties of unpleasantness
including sarcastic accusations,
delerious demands,
repulsive self-worship,
a cold and hostile face.
If another person is unpleasant,
realize that your wish for sunlight
must have nothing to do with his darkness."

477. "An inconsiderate person does not see
how much unecessary work he selfishly piles on others.
Not seeing this fact,
he hurts with unbelieving indignation
when told about it."

478. "People are surly and rude because their
attention is locked in the downward position.
They have become what they have attended to."

479. " Plain and simple courteous behaviour?
Self-centeredness never heard of it."

480. "Courtesy can't be explained to a rude mind"

481. "Connect suffering with rudeness"

482. "If your behaviour is unpleasant,
see that you have chosen midnight over noon
and see that you will stumble
and fall in your own darkness."

483. "The only way to have good manners
is to wake up."




JERRY:
So what am I supposed to 'do' with the insights quoted? It
corners me into self-centered behavior. Maybe it's elsewhere
in Vernon Howard's writings, and elsewhere within the sphere
of your own intent, but I don't hear any compassion for the
mentally ill and those who behave unpleasantly. That is more
important than whether I personally am bent toward noon or
midnight.



MICHAEL:
Good question there Jerry. We humans exhibit all kinds of
behaviours. They range from hate filled facism to love filled
compassion. From scritpure thumping fundamentalists to
incomprehensible mystics.

In the past (for me) it was just natural to fall into judgement.
I thought that people had some 'control' over thier attitudes and
beliefs. (Nah, I don't know if it's 'free will' or 'destiny' - and
I just do not care anymore what that answer is)

Then I made the 'mistake' (joking) of asking the Universe what
the real meaning of it all is. The incondensable truth just
destroyed me. :-)) Best thing that ever happened.

Compassion! :-)) Oh, my Goodness! The I AM so thoroughly enjoys being
jerrymikeamandamukerjeejudimarkthreefeathersbillsarahjesusjeffserena
all countless beings are Being! Darn it - gettin' all mystic
eyed again.

I hope you will be healed enough for a great big hug this weekend!

Loveya all!

HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!

Peace - Michael



TOMAS DIAZ de VILLEGAS:

Hello list,

Firstly I want to say hi to all the old listbuddies- I've been off-list
for sometime and decided to come back in for a few moments. Jerry, I
hope  you feeling all better- I read about the hospital stay.

regarding the "only one adequate means":

I've been listening in on uarelove's messages and have been in an
inquiry  regarding how he is communicating. I've been watching my
reactions to what has been occuring to me as a narrow and competitive
view. It's been a great teacher to me becuase questions of "right
teaching, right teacher, right path, right method, right this, right
that" is a classic trigger for me. All of a sudden there is fear,
uncertainty, worry, concern along with looking to defend and protect.
The wondering about getting it, will I ever get it,....It presses my
search button.

It's a challenge to be with the fear and uncertainty without moving into
making someone wrong and getting into the "right" position.

I have been looking at myself in uarelove's communication and noticing
my own urge to get validation, to use someone's words to prove or
disprove something. I have also noticed the urge to make this
uncertainty, fear and hurt a problem to be solved by the "right method".

what has come up for me is that Love is what makes a method, teacher or
path right. Love for Love. Out of this Love comes the energy to see and
burn up what is simply  false. It's love that seeks to be true becuase
it loves itself. Otherwise, it comes from some strategy to become
something, get somewhere, and be "right" in doing so.

If it's coming from being "right", the inquiry is a game and promises
the timeless somewhere in time. If it arises from a stand in/as Love
then it's the noticing and letting go of suffering here and now.

To uarelove: this may or may not apply to you but I invite you to
inquire into who you are being in this matter- I mean, where you are
coming from- being right or being love.



PETROS posted to his list:

"Get out of the construction business. Stop building bridges
across the raging waters of samsaric existence, attempting to
reach the 'far shore,' nirvana.

Better to simply relax, at ease and carefree, in total
naturalness, and just go with the primordial flow, however it
occurs and happens. And remember this: whether or not you go
with the flow, it always goes with you."


XAN:

As swimmers dare
to lie face to the sky
and water bears them,
as hawks rest upon air
and air sustains them,
so I would learn to attain
freefall and float
into Creator Spirit's deep embrace,
knowing no effort earns
that all surrounding grace.

~  Denise Levertov




MORE EGO NOTION:

uarelove:
Jerry you have given a good description, of what makes
Vernon Howard quite different from all the other "Teachers"
that I have encountered. As far a being cornered that is
very much a good description. However this being cornered
was so intensely magnified in Vernon Howards classes with
Vernon Howard there. And the being cornered and the
apparant lack of compasssion were related and part of the
same Teaching device.

jerry:
I accept that anything can be a teaching device.

uarelove:
Most of the Teachers I have
encountered do not speak with a threatening tone. However
Vernon Howard did. Arriving at Vernon Howards classes there
was the sense that one had been tricked. It is something
like one thinking oh great I am going to now get a chance
to attend the classes of the Teacher who wrote these
excellent books. And then one goes to the class, and to get
a better view sits in the front row and there is a lion
sitting there in the chair instead of a Spiritual Teacher.
Or one might say it was like going to a class and finding
that one is caught in a web and a spider is sitting in the
chair. Vernon Howard was bizarre. I attended his classes
three times a week for three months in Boulder City, Nevada
around 23 years ago. At the new life web site they have
sound clips of Vernon Howard. However they are not
selecting any clips of Vernon Howard screaming at the top
of his lungs. Vernon Howard was very sucessful in this
cornering of the ego notion. So people in the class did not
exhibit self centered behaviour. It was sort of like
someone having a hand gun to ones head saying if you dare
play even one of your little ego games with me your brains
will be on the table. So no one played due to his tremdous
ability to convey a sense of seriousness and threat.

jerry:
Thank you for your description and for your entire
letter.

uarelove:
I remember there was one odd women who
had a few followers who came for a visit to the class
and she was told to raise her hand before speaking
she started to say "I resent...." vernon just
looked at her and raised his hand,
it was that don't you dare look.
She did not go beyond the word resent.
She said only the two words. It reminds me of
some kind of power, some kind of siddhi maybe.
Vernon Howard was truly amazing at conveying
that there is a rattlesnake in front of you
and the only way to be safe is to not play
a single ego game now.

jerry:
Those who come to a teacher will benefit if they listen
to the teacher and do what the teacher tells them to do.
It's probably an extreme teaching or measure that's needed
to yank out the arrow upon which one is impaled. It's an
easier teaching that numbs the pain and details and
decorates the arrow. I feel there's room for both kinds of
teachings, but the arrow has to come out one way or the
other, so Vernon Howard sounds like he's doing some dirty
work that has to be done. I read one of his books of verses
many years ago.

uarelove:
The lack of compassion for the ego notion runs
throughout Vernon Howards Teachings.
The atmosphere was somewhat concentration camp like.
One of the rules upon first arriving in the class
was I was not to speak to any females in the class.
If they approached me to talk I could respond
however I was not to approach them and speak to them.
Why? because that was not the purpose of the class.
The purpose of the class was not a social club.
I once asked Vernon Howard

"Is the purpose of this class
to end the illusion of the ego"
He asked me to repeat the question so I repeated it.
Vernon said "Yes. Well stated"
The purpose of the classes were not to indulge the
ego, pretending such indulgence and play is actually
a way to end the ego notion illusion, as is so
common in satsangs today. Vernon Howard had
zero tolerance and
zero compassion for the ego notion.

jerry:
Attending Vernon Howard's class I can understand that
one will see that compassion is an ego game. This is one way
of teaching. It's an outward teaching directed inward.
Nisargadatta or Ramana teach from inward out, as I see it.
Everyone teaches with varying degrees of both. Not every
teacher has radical nondual perspective, however.

Reality has no qualities. No compassion, no love, no
peace, no qualities. But that's not the case either. There
is neither the presence nor absence of qualities. Nonduality
means not-two, sameness, homogeneity. It doesn't mean the
presence or absence of anything. It means neither this nor
not this. So while I'm getting a better idea of who Vernon
Howard is, I'm still hearing his big NO, when I'd like to
hear a big NEITHER NO NOR NOT NO.

The Self neither has nor lacks qualities. That
perspective, which is nondual, gives enormous freedom. It
does not mean that the Self is whole, complete, perfect,
alone. There is no freedom in such a description. Regardless
of what you or Vernon Howard think or teach, I am speaking,
I am speaking perfectly and freely and I am capable of
showing some compassion and certainly capable of withholding
it as well.

On the other hand, were I in Vernon Howard's classroom
I would sit perfectly still, not question him, and allow him
to work. I can do that because I am a free person capable of
doing that. I don't stand up for anything. I don't declare
reality to be this or that way or the Self to be Whole. I
wouldn't dare. I am free to ask where the compassion is
because I reside in the interval that opens when it is
understood that the Self, Reality, is neither Whole nor not
Whole.

No one can be your teacher. No one can influence you.
The real teacher is no influence, and that means nothing is
done, nothing is taught, or, rather, there is neither
teaching nor no teaching. It is quite okay if people keep
their ego games and think they know more than I do. I have
no teaching to assault. I know the ego games will melt like
a salt doll in the ocean.

Thanks for the opportunity to make a few statements.


uarelove :
Vernon once said:
"God is a NO a thousand miles high"
Vernon said a NO a thousand miles high to the ego
notion in every class that he gave.
And his don't you DARE play an ego game with me
theme ran throughout his teaching, and that
Don't and that dare where a thousand miles high also.
Regarding your not hearing any compassion for the
mentally ill etc. I never heard any compassion for
the ego notion coming from Vernon Howard.
His way was more like if one had a cancer to
cut out the cancer. Not to coddle it,
no to nuture it, no to help it grow,
just to cut it out and end it.

Compassion is a part of the ego dream.
The Self is not in need of Compassion
it is whole, complete , perfect and alone.
There is no one whom one could have
compassion for.

Bhagavan Ramana once said referring to the
bodhisattva vow of not attaining the final
liberation until all sentient beings have
been liberated:
"it is like saying I will not wake up from the
dream until all the dream characters have
awakened from the dream"

Regarding compassion being more important than
if you are bent to noon or to midnight.
This brings up something significant about how
one approaches a Teaching. If I am studying
Vernon Howard, as an example, what matters is only
if Vernon Howard finds being bent toward noon
or midnight more important or if he finds compassion
to be more important. Whatever opinions I may have
have gathered have no importance,
with this one exception:
it is good to be aware of any such opinions
because then I can make sure they do not
influence the study. If one is not aware of them
then they will gather evidence to support their
view. So it is good to be aware of them
and then to not allow them to influence the
study.
One day at the Vernon Howard class a sign had been
added and it said in really huge letters:
"If you know more than the Teacher
what are you doing in this class?"
Where does one find aspirants who do not
think they know better than the sages?
Such aspirants are so rare.
This manifests itself in so many ways,
subtle, complex, clever intepretations.
Thinking one has discovered the "flaw"
in a Sages Teaching or some way to improve it.
Such people probably know better than to
take the knife out of the surgeons hand
and begin cutting trying out one of their pet
theories. However this same wisdom that lets
them know better than to do that,
does not apply to their approach to
a Sages Teaching. This is because the
ego notion wishes to preserve itself
and it has millions of such strategies for doing so.
There was one form of self centered behaviour
that one could engage in regarding the
Vernon Howard classes. That is to leave them.
That was an option available to the cornered ego.

Vernon once said:
"Everyone who leaves this class raises
the level of this class"
Vernon Howard once said that "in some
esoteric classes the use of the words
love and peace is prohibited"

Why this is:
what humans call love and peace
is not love and peace.
Love and Peace are ways that one could
attempt to describe the Self.
So instead of focussing on a fantasy
about love and peace,
proceeding to end ego notion illusion
was recommended.

The web page for new life (Vernon Howard)is:
http://www.anewlife.org

Vernon Howards body is no longer living.
If there is such a thing as a compassionate act
that the ego notion can do,
the ego notion ending the ego notion
would be that compassionate act.





MANCHINE:

Reality,

I have a model that works for me.
You have yours.
There's a model where the Earth
is green and emerald blue.

It's our model.

A disasterous volvano
smashes the model,
throwing smoke and
fire into the clear blue
sky.

The sea crashing to the shore
for 10's of thousands of years
longer than any of our ancestors
can remember.

But you know,
there's a model where
the Earth was filled
with majestic volcanos
spewing fire at ever turn.
The twisting and decisive
flow of red hot lava,
the blood of the Earth
for 100's of thousands of years.

Huh! who the hell are we?
Fucken assholes, think they own the Earth!
Think what you will.
I love you!





HARSHA:

Hello Jerry and everyone.  Just came back into town and will try
to catch up with some of the e-mail tomorrow. Enjoyed reading your
thoughts Jerry as always.  I remember Jerry writing sometime ago
that when he was young he thought something like, "no matter what
the sages say, I am still me or still will be me ......."  Dan has
said something to the effect that, "Hold no head above your own."
Profound understanding, it seems to me.


Once when I was 13 or so and sitting in the verandah quietly,
I had a clear sense of the past. Then a strong stream of thoughts
arose again and again and I thought it was my obligation to state
clearly that if one ever has to choose between a guru (spiritual
teacher) and the truth, one should always choose what one feels
deeply as the truth, regardless of who the teacher is. I remember
the arising of those thoughts spontaneously and with an amazing
force to indicate clearly that a genuine teacher is not separate
from the truth and can therefore can impart such a teaching. So
when Dan says, "Hold no head above your own", it makes perfect
sense.



NOTES HS/NDS GATHERING:


Petros will be at the HS/NDS gathering next week in
Providence along with 15 others. I think there is still
lodging available for a few more and there are motels
nearby.


Yes!! Plenty of lodging at the Zen center, and meals are included for
$55/day. If you
got the urge to join us, please at least email me so I can notify Zen Center
ASAP, by
Monday would be nicer! You can pay when you get there. I have a list of area
motels
to email out to anyone who has that preference. It's gonna be something..and
something else too. Please join us.

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Harsha:


Hello Jerry and everyone.  Just came back into town and will try to catch up
with some
of the e-mail tomorrow. Enjoyed reading your thoughts Jerry as always.  I
remember
Jerry writing sometime ago that when he was young he thought something like, "no
matter what the sages say, I am still me or still will be me ......."  Dan has
said
something to the effect that, "Hold no head above your own."  Profound
understanding,
it seems to me.

Once when I was 13 or so and sitting in the verandah quietly, I had a clear
sense of
the past. Then a strong stream of thoughts arose again and again and I thought
it was
my obligation to state clearly that if one ever has to choose between a guru
(spiritual teacher) and the truth, one should always choose what one feels
deeply as
the truth, regardless of who the teacher is. I remember the arising of those
thoughts
spontaneously and with an amazing force to indicate clearly that a genuine
teacher is
not separate from the truth and can therefore can impart such
a teaching. So when Dan says, "Hold no head above your own", it makes perfect
sense.

Love to all
Harsha

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uarelove posted:

17. "While God sustains the burden of the World,

the spurious Ego assumes its burden

grimacing like an image on a tower

seeming to support it.

If the traveller in a carriage

which can support any weight

does not lay his luggage down

but carries it painfully on his head,

whose is the fault?"


39. "Keep advaita within the heart.

Do not ever carry it into action.

Even if you apply it to all the three worlds,

O son, it is not to be applied to the Guru"

--From the supplement to the forty Verses

by Ramana Maharshi

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Compassion, yes. From a distance it might seem to some that
stark coolness is very much what reality is and therefore
it's proper to behave that way. But, again, how can reality
have qualities? We are free to be. Cool or warm. We are free
to be. No one can tell me how to be. Our gathering might be
called a celebration of I AM. See you there, Michael.

Love,
Jerry

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I wanted to share with you a poem of Rumi. Perhaps it tells the story of his
life (and ours as well).

Love to all
Harsha


I WAS READY TO TELL
the story of my life
but the ripple of tears
and the agony of my heart
wouldn't let me

i began to stutter
saying a word here and there
and all along i felt
as tender as a crystal
ready to be shattered

in this stormy sea
we call life
all the big ships
come apart
board by board

how can i survive
riding a lonely
little boat
with no oars
and no arms

my boat did finally break
by the waves
and i broke free
as i tied myself
to a single board

though the panic is gone
i am now offended
why should i be so helpless
rising with one wave
and falling with the next

i don't know
if i am
nonexistence
while i exist
but i know for sure
when i am
i am not
but
when i am not
then i am

now how can i be
a skeptic
about the
resurrection and
coming to life again

since in this world
i have many times
like my own imagination
died and
been born again

that is why
after a long agonizing life
as a hunter
i finally let go and got
hunted down and became free

~Rumi, ghazal number 1419,
translated April 17, 1991,
by Nader Khalili

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Ed Arrons:

Typically the self vacillates between objective duality
and subjective nonduality according to the degree of
separation experienced.  Within the swings is noticed
different points of identity according to conditioned
experience.  At the very 'center' is a point of non-
identification, a 'transcendence point', which is the
key to Selfhood.

E.

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Gloria Lee:


Hi guys, I looked up some references to effort in Talks with Ramana and would
like to
share a few quotes from there. Just saying effort or no effort is an inadequate
description without regard to circumstances applicable to that effort or
non-effort.

"One's efforts are directed only to remove one's ignorance. Afterwards they
cease,
and the real Self is found to be always there. No effort is needed to remain as
the
Self."

"There is no fruit without previous karma; no karma without previous sankalpa
(intentions). Even mukti (liberation, spiritual freedom) must be the result of
effort
so long as the sense of doership persists."
~~~~~
D: Master, being asked 'Who?', I know that it is ignorant me, composed of the
senses,
mind, and body. I tried this enquiry 'Who?' after reading Paul Brunton's book.
Three
or four times I was feeling elated and the elation lasted sometime and faded
away.
How to be established in 'I'? Please give me the clue and help me.

M: That which appears anew must also disappear in due course.

D: Please tell me the method of reaching the eternal Truth.

M: You are That. Can you ever remain apart from the Self? To be yourself
requires no
effort since you are always That.
~~~~~~~
D: Is then hearing the Truth meant only for a limited few?

M: It is of two kinds. The ordinary one is to hear it enunciated and explained
by a
master. However, the right one is to raise the question for oneself and seek and
find
the answer in oneself as the unbroken 'I - I'.
~~~

"You and I are the same. What I have done is surely possible for all. You are
the
Self now and can never be anything else. Throw your worries to the wind, turn
within
and find Peace."

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Dave manchine:


I was wondering the other day, how many people in the world
there are that have had direct conscious experience of "I AM".

I remember you mentioning once before, that very many can go
back in childhood and remember when they asked a question
similar to 'Who am I?' and it made me think. I thought of
various times "before" the moment that I had seen "I AM",
and many after; most without the same level of significance,
you could say "normal" thoughts. But it lead me to another
thought.

I had always found it so difficult to explain the feeling,
and had been so surprised that it was so difficult to
bring others to see it, until I realized that you were
absolutely right. Many if not all people have had a brush
with "I AM". Most, perhaps not consciously, but when I lost
the capacity to "call it up" myself for a time, I knew what
was going on.

The mind knows what it means to come face to face with "I AM".
It's about "death", the most obvious is the iminence of the
physical death, and the most fear provoking is the "right darnewll
now" possibility of the death of "me". I began investigating and I
noticed that many have come close, realized that they don't
want to go there, and shut it out.

I was with a small group this weekend, explaining the concept of
nonduality, I talked a little first about "I AM", they are familiar
with the concept, and very close to experiencing it. "Self" was there,
with a wide stance :-) his arms on his hips. Some also call it
the Eagle. There was a vacuum that only the void can generate.
Many of us here know it. A voice said, "you don't exist
like you think you do". One smiled nervously, until he saw the dead
serious look on my face. "Oh shit!" he said, as he continued
mumbling for a minute about not being there. "That's all I need"
he said, finally giving his head a shake and joining everyone
else again at the table.

I AM for moments like those, and will be forever more. I wanted to
say here, anyone blessed with direct experience must act, it is not
theirs to keep. The process of sharing this gift is the guru and
the garbage man. If you are in IT you get looked after. Big names
aren't important, nor is importance an issue. Action is the key,
what else is there?

And by the way, thank you for this list Jerry. You can take out
my garbage any day! (and often do:-)

dave

The tenderness of erring
is never understood in the moment.
Not for what it is.

Its coldness,
its hollow pleasure
Huh, its brazen arrogance!

Something's not right!
I can't look IT in the eye.
From here.

How is it that I got here?
So very far away.
ah, the dream, oh sweet dream!

Your tender touch
testing my knowledge of you.
I'm here for you again.

this image
is ALL
but nothing in your LOVE

--Dave
___________________________________________________________________________

MARK OTTER: Selections

Say gang, no more accusations of non real realization.
(please?) From now on, help everyone towards real
realization. It it's ego based, it needs to be looked at.
That's fine - looking can be done with love. loving words
are helpful, but it is important to use them skillfully -
use them to help others. Neem Karoli Baba told Ram Dass
many times when Ram Dass asked him how to become
enlightened "feed people." True for calories, true for
love. Hey Maharishi, back me up, and hit these people with
your whip o' love. (or hit me anyway...) humbly asked. I
know I can't do it. do it now.

*****

I dont' want to hear about experiences. I want to dive into
them.

*****

I think aspirants tend to focus on everything and anything,
and hopefully become skilled at distinguishing what is true
and what is false. I truly believe that this is helpful,
however the final unveiling comes crashing in.

*****

The ego preservation movement is very strong here in Mark,
but mark is very willing to look at it closely. Mark does
not wish to preserve ego shit. ego shit is lies lies, lies.
bullshit limitations bullshit self agrandizment bullshit
defense. no defense. Mark willing to die. mark dying
already. Oh push over edge. no questions. I'll spread my
wings while I fall. okay. lets fall together. let go. no
value, no ego, no nothing. fall into life. there is no
reason to resist. if I am wrong, then so be it. no worse
than Hell that Mark earned and suffered in and deserved
fully. done now. enough. areyou love?

________________________________________________________________________

ASHWIN KHAMBADKONE

My dear friend, before you take Ramana's teachings for
there literal meaning (world disappears) please think about
this.

As far as the Self is concerned it was not worried about
what came from a body called Ramana. This body, as per its
programming, spoke in tamil, telegu most of the time. Yes
it also spoke english but sparingly. Many questions were
asked, some were answered by silence, some with some words.
Some of these words were translated by some bodies with ego
notions (as only few were realized as per your count).
Hence the translation was done in illusion, the printing
and your reading is happening in the delusion.

Your posting them on different list is happening in the
same delusion and my responding to them is happening in the
same delusion.

The same can be said about Nisargadatta Maharaj, he spoke
in Marathi, most of his works are translation.

It is said that Ramana's teaching in silence were the best
of all teachings, I pray that those silent teachings touch
your heart.

*****

For one who quotes Ramana Ramana also said the ego of a
sage is like a burnt rope, the shape of the rope exist but
it is of no use for it can't tie anything.

It is good that you are reading Ramana's teaching. But it
looks like you are infatuated with only a particular aspect
of it: effort in killing the ego. Either you try to kill
the ego and tell us what happened or keep an open mind and
read all of Ramana without searching for authentication of
your concepts of effort to kill ego.

If you have som much faith in your interpretation of
Ramana's method on killing the ego, why not try it out. Why
waste time discussing with the advaita theorist? After you
have killed the ego....may be you can share your
insights......

___________________________________________________________________

DAVE (MANCHINE)

In the presence of "Self" there does not exist a shadow of
a doubt as to "sincerity of conduct". It is perfectly true,
however, that maintaining attachments to worldly comforts
limits "access" to Self, thus "such a person IS discarded
like a lowly one" almost by definintion.

Each day it seems more the rage to look down on well
meaning discoverers. We seem to be moving towards the
attitude of the old religions of the past, breathing fire
and brimstone.

Yes, the ego is a tough cookie, and requires, at precise
moments solid shots, but even those should be administered
with the compassion of "Being" itself. If one is puting up
a show that he is realized, it is more likely that he is
innocent, and should indeed then be treated with
compassion.

It seems self regulatory. We are in a process, an
intentional play. We curse at other, we cannot see Self. We
fall for larger periods, any glimppse into Self is fearsome
yet leaves one with the inspiration to "give their head a
shake".

There IS a connection to Self, know it.

___________________________________________________________________

JERRY

Inner vigilance, discernment, discrimination are always
required. It's important to shine a light on the darkest
corner's of one's life, even if behavior can't change so
easily.

All Scriptures swiped off the desk, I find only my elbows
on it.

___________________________________________________________________________

GLORIA LEE

Like the hunger site, your mere click creates a donation by
sponsors and advertisers to buying land to protect it from
deforestation.

http://rainforest.care2.com/

*****

The higher your aims and vaster your desires, the more
energy you will have for their fulfillment. Desire the good
of all and the universe will work with you. But if you want
your own pleasure, you must earn it the hard way. Before
desiring, deserve.

- Nisargadatta Maharaj

This quotation is from: "I Am That" Talks with Sri
Nisargadatta Maharaj The Acorn Press, 1973

________________________________________________________________________________\
__
MELODY ANDERSON

I'm spending the day with Osho today...

"These techniques [described in his 'Book of Secrets'] are
to help you, to bring you back. Much will have to be
destroyed - all that is wrong, all that is false. Before
the real arises the false will have to leave; it must
cease. And these are the false notions - that you are.
These are the false notions - that you are a soul, atma,
you are Brahma. Not that you are not, but these notions are
false.

Gurdjieff had to insist that there is no soul in you.
Against all the traditions he insisted, 'Man has no soul.
Soul is simply a possibility - it can be, it may not be. It
has to be achieved. You are simply a seed.'

And this emphasis is good. The possibility is there, the
potential is there, but it is not yet actual. And we go on
reading the Gita and the Upanishads and the Bible, and we
go on feeling that we are the soul - the seed thinking that
it is the tree. The tree is hidden there, but it is yet to
be uncovered. And it is good to remember that you may
remain a seed, and you may die a seed - because the tree
cannot come, the tree cannot sprout by itself. You have to
do something consciously about it, because only through
consciousness it grows.

There are two types of growth. One is unconscious, natural
growth: if the situation is there, the thing will grow. But
the soul, the atma, the innermost being, the divine within
you, is a different type of growth altogether. It is only
through consciousness that it grows. It is not natural, it
is supernatural.

Left to nature itself it will not grow; just left to
evolution it will never evolve. You have to do something
consciously, you have to make a conscious effort about it,
because only through consciousness it grows. Once
consciousness is focused there, the growth happens."

________________________________________________________________________

Nora asks: Speaking of Andrew Cohen, does anyone have a
link to a website that has his mother's experiences with
him? seem to remember reading about it from a link someone
posted a long time ago

Try
http://scp-inc.org/publications/newsletters/N2203/mother_of_god.html

Love, Sarlo

______________________________________________________________________

Gloria Lee shares:

From "Four Quartets" by T.S. Eliot

----------------

We shall not cease from exploration

And the end of all our exploring

Will be to arrive where we started

And know the place for the first time.

Harsha: Thanks Gloria. This is a beautiful verse. It seems
to nicely describe the context of the spiritual search and
Self-Realization.

_________________________________________________________________________

MARCIA PAUL

Talk about having things backwards.

Two things I realized I had backwards:

1. In "realizing one's nothingness," I always thought what
was nothing was the Self because it didn't feel like
anything (i.e. no sense of self) but what I have come to
realize is that what is nothing is all the stuff I thought
was "me."

2. Second thing is that awakening means awakening to life.
I thought it meant awakening to the Self. The Self already
is awake. As I am, I am asleep or dead really and as Jesus
said..."Let the dead bury the dead." It is the white bag
blowing in the breeze. When awake, the whole of me responds
to life; otherwise there is only fragmented reaction. It
can be rational, emotional, or sensation but the key thing
is that it is not whole but fragmented.

_________________________________________________________________________

UARELOVE

There was and is no body, no world. Over and over people
used to say things to Nisargadatta claiming he had a body
and that he acted and he would plead not guilty. One
example is someone wondered why he was smoking a cigarette?
Nisargadatta said: If you examine it, you will see it is
your I am the body idea that makes you perceive the I see
you smoking idea. For those still under the delusion of the
ego it appears Ramana had a body, and that there is and was
a world. Those in whom the ego notion has ended have made
it clear there never have been any bodies and there never
have been any worlds. someone, maybe xan recently posted an
excellent Teaching of Bhagavan Ramana of how there is no
all for God to pervade. All these thoughts about sages
having a body, and there being a world, are thoughts of an
all. There is no all. All is one may be a good stepping
stone view, because it is so difficult for a human to see
there is no all. However all is not one because there is no
all. There is only One. That One has always existed by
itself, with no worlds, no beings, no universe, no this and
no that. Just Infinite Empty Awareness.

______________________________________________________________________________

MIGUEL-ANGEL RESPONDS TO UARLOVE

UARLOVE: Ending the illusion is the purpose of the effort
and the Inquiry Who am I? Effort does not apply to Being
the Self according to the Teachings of Bhagavan Ramana.
Effort does apply to ending the ego

MIGUEL-ANGEL: You seem very much in love with effort. May I
ask whose effort?

The mind's effort? Hardly. The source of the problem can't
be the agent of the solution. The ego's effort? Impossible.
The ego can only try to survive. It can't possibly commit
suicide. The Self's effort? Out of the question. The Self
doesn't act. It's not a doer. Whose effort then?

Don't you see that the very idea of effort is part of the
(false) problem? "Effort" is as empty an idea as that of
free will, or individual independence. The idea of "effort"
(and that of free will) are based on another, equally
wrong, idea : "personal doership". Only if there are
separate independent agents is it possible to speak of
effort or free will. But can you see our body-mind
organisms as separate, independent, free agents? Only if
you subscribe to the dualist philosophy, which states the
existence of the individual souls as separate substances.
For nondualism there is only consciousness, and only one.
Therefore there are no separate souls, no individual
entities, no personal agents, no free doers, no
effort-makers.

The idea of effort is clearly dualistic. It arises from a
split carried out by the mind : first the continuum of the
manifestated is divided into two parts: ego as a separate
entity and the rest of the world. Then this imaginary ego
is seen as facing the world (including there one's
personality) and trying to control it. But this split is a
chimera. There is absolutely no division in the manifested.
It is all a continuum, an undivided whole, and not existing
in itself but in consciousness.

There is only Consciousness and its contents. No part of
Consciousness can be a separate entity, because IT has no
parts. And no part of ITS contents (the manifested world of
phenomena) can be a separate entity either, because
consciousness' contents have no substance, no individual
entity. Therefore nothing can be a separate entity. So, in
the absence of a separate entity, where is effort?

All idea of effort is an illusion. As is the very idea of
doeship. As is the very idea of a goal, of something to
achieve. As is the very idea that something needs mending.

All is as it is. All is as it must.

_________________________________________________________________________

PINKY GIZZARDNOSE

Thank you for the recent posts on the ego notion. Yah, it's
just a notion. But never forget - all is One. :-))

If your ego is identified with your name, it may be time
for a new name. Below is a tool for finding your new 'true'
name. Enjoy!

-------------------------------------------

Read directions carefully - this is hilarious!

All of us have a small child somewhere within us, and when
you get your new name, chances are you'll end up giggling
just like a child.

The following is an excerpt from a children's book,
"Captain Underpants and the Perilous Plot of Professor
Poopypants," by Dav Pilkey:

The evil Professor forces everyone to assume new names ....

Use the FIRST letter of your first name to determine your
NEW first name:

a stinky

b lumpy

c buttercup

d dorkey

e crusty

f greasy

g fluffy

h cheeseball

i chim-chim

j poopsie

k flunky

l booger

m pinky

n zippy

o goober

p doofus

q slimy

r loopy

s snotty

t falafel

u gidget

v squeezit

w oprah

x skipper

y dinky

z zsa-zsa

Use the FIRST letter of your last name to determine the
first half of your NEW last name:

a diaper

b toilet

c giggle

d bubble

e girdle

f barf

g lizard

h waffle

i cootie

j monkey

k potty

l liver

m banana

n rhino

o burger

p hamster

q toad

r gizzard

s pizza

t gerbil

u chicken

v pickle

w chuckle

x tofu

y gorilla

z stinker

Use the LAST letter of your last name to determine the
second half of your NEW last name:

a head

b mouth

c face

d nose

e tush

f breath

g pants

h shorts

i lips

j honker

k butt

l brain

m tushie

n chunks

o hiney

p biscuits

q toes

r buns

s fanny

t sniffer

u sprinkles

v kisser

w squirt

x humperdinck

y brains

z juice

Thus, for example, George Bush's new name is Fluffy
Toiletshorts.....and Al Gore would be Stinky Lizardtush,
pretty fitting!

HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!


__________________________________________________________________________
--
We are the Nonduality Generation.
http://www.nonduality.com

HARSHA'S LETTER TO UARLOVE

You are love indeed. I admire your sincerity and passion
and the fact that you are a devotee of the great Sage of
Arunachala, Bhagwan Ramana Maharshi. Your emphasis that the
pure teachings come from the Original Source is very
beautiful. The Original Source is always the Self, the
Heart. The Guru Is the Self. Appearing as a body, S/He,
through Look, Thought Force, Touch, and Teachings
transforms so that You Realize that You are the Self and
that your consciousness is identical to that of the Guru.
To Realize Directly and without hindrance One's Own Nature
is the way.

Uarelove, you clearly have read a lot, met many teachers,
and have much spiritual experience and a well formed
outlook on Self-Realization. That is wonderful. I want to
tell you that Bhagwan Ramana was one of the most
compassionate sages who embodied non-violence. He was
humorous but rarely condescending. He was relaxed and easy
and natural and love shone through his eyes. He did not
impose any teaching on anyone. He gave different answers to
different people to suit their tastes and outlooks and
background, although his essential teaching of Self-Inquiry
is well known. The Highest Teaching, the Great Sage always
said, was in Silence. Ramana shines like the sun for me and
his light has such beauty and radiance and warmth that I am
never away from it as it is only my Own Self-Radiance.

I understand the desperation for Realization from personal
experience. I have known such times of weeping and sobbing
and asking for Self-Realization (or Knowledge or
God-Realization or call it you want) and questioning, Why
not me? Why not me? When others have done it, why not me?
Of course this feeling would pass. You have to come out of
your room at some point and face the world :-).

Then I gave up reading this and that teacher. What was the
point, I thought? Lost interest. One book, "Talks with
Ramana Maharshi" became my sole companion. Intuitively, I
knew the Truth of Ramana's words. I used to sleep with that
book next to my head. "You are already That - Give up the
notion that you are not!" Such words of Ramana Maharshi
were my constant companions. It is about giving up
everything uarelove. Giving up all the notions no matter
how sublime. No need to make a game of it and analyze ego
preservation strategies, etc. Just giving up everything
completely and totally in one stroke is the way. Whether it
is ego preservation or destruction or this and that, all
these are concepts hindering Clear Self-Knowledge. However,
the "Giving Up" can't be done. One can try to create a
climate for it, but it must happen spontaneously in order
for the Truth to become Self-Evident.

One day, almost 21 years ago, as was my habit, I had been
meditating for some hours and my back was very stiff and
tired and aching. And I was tired. I thought, let me just
lie down and rest a little. I lay down on my back and got
some relief from the pain and then just gave up everything.
Grace allowed for that. Just before it happened, Sri
Ramana's guidance flashed in my mind and through His Grace,
I allowed myself to be swallowed up by the Heart. As Rumi
would say, the hunter finally became the prey.

I Realized the Truth of the Self as an Immediate Truth and
Directly Understood the nature of Sat-Chit-Ananda. The
utter emptiness of awareness has such total beauty and yet
it cannot be fully described. When I came out of this and
opened my eyes, I thought, "Of course! It is Only Me! It Is
Me! It Is Me even Now! What else did I expect? I Realized
that the highest state and the most ordinary states are
permeated by the same Reality of Consciousness. The Same
sameness, the same taste of Silence is present everywhere
in all states. Where the Seer and the Seen Merge, That I
AM! I AM the Seer and the Seen. Where Perceiver and
Perceptions Merge, That I AM. I am the Perceiver and the
Perception as One Whole. I AM the Utter Simplicity,
Self-Evident to It Self.

So follow your truth uarelove, and you will see that You
are the Truth It Self. Then you will love and support
"others" and allow them to follow their truth in their way.

____________________________________________________________________

Subject: electronic Tonglen account for Judi

From the arising of several streams here, an account with
PayPal.com has been established to collect money-currency
to match our heart-currency-intent to send Judi (and maybe
her daughter) to her mom's side. Judi's mom is in declining
health.

This is a terrific opportunity to be more than a
"mail-list". The base suggested amount is $10, of course,
you can feel free to offer more. You can establish an
account (takes about 15 minutes) and then securely transfer
funds. And the great news is that even if you do nothing
more than establish an account through the below link, the
fund is gifted with a $5 bonus.
https://secure.paypal.com/refer/pal=cpd%40well.com

Thanks,
Christiana Duranczyk cpd@...

____________________________________________________________________

DAVE

Have a wonderful time everybody! Your going to make a dent
in the world, I just know it.

It's going to be so cool to see all the new faces when you
come back!

________________________________________________________________________

KKT

An anecdote from the book "A Vision of the Sacred - My
Personal Journey with Krishnamurti" by Sunanda Patwardhan:

A strange, esoteric event took place once during
Krishnaji's visit to India . I am speaking now about a
meeting between a Jain sadhu (holy person) and Krishnaji,
with Achyutji and I as silent and fascinated witnesses. The
sadhu told Krishnaji, "Sir, for fourteen years now, I have
devoted myself to meditation, yet I am not able to get into
samadhi. I have been practicing meditation, dhyana, but I
have not been able to go to the depths of it. Can I do
this? Will you be able to tell me what my impediments are
?"

Krishnaji asked him to describe the kinds of meditative
practices he had been following. After listening to him, he
said, "Do you realize that you are still acquiring? Open
your fist. There is nothing to acquire".

For some minutes, the sadhu was silent. He then got up and
prostrated himself before Krishnaji, who then asked him to
stay on for some more time . After a while, the sadhu said,
"Sir, I want to ask you one more question. Is it the impact
of your personality that has given me this [experience]? Is
this due to your gurukripa [grace of the guru]?"

Krishnaji replied, "I knew you would ask this question.
That is why I asked you to stay on for some more time .
This is not something to acquire but to give up. Release
your fist. Leave everything." He paused for a moment and
said, "Is it the [new] mind that is asking that question?
Or is it the mind before you experienced 'this' that is
full of questions? You have been caught up in it again. I
took you out of it, but you have gone back to it. If you
stand firmly on that and let go everything, 'it' will come
. 'It' will come, not because you want it, but 'it' will
come . Have you understood what I am asking?"

The sadhu prostrated himself again before Krishnaji, sat
down and said, "I don't need to go anywhere else".
Krishnaji then said to him, "The 'other' is out of time,
and we live in time . And we want to bring timeless into
time . I have told you all this, but it is not mine".

Unknowable are the nonverbal experiences and mysterious are
the ways by which a teacher communicates them. What I
understood from this conversation is that transformations
in oneself could take place in the presence of an
enlightened person if one was open and vulnerable to the
teaching.

_________________________________________________________________________

MARK OTTER

This is from Tricycle, in an ad for Verses From the Center:

What do you think Of a freedom that never happens? What do
you make Of a life that won't go away?

_________________________________________________________________________

DAN BERKOW

This isn't someone else's inquiry -- it doesn't
   depend on someone else's words, insight,
   experience, or point of view -- it wasn't
   originated from somewhere else and isn't
   an imitation of how someone else went about it,
   is going about it, or says to go about it.

This inquiry is only this:
     looking into suffering (friction
     between "me" and "it")
     experienced here, and noticing
     how that friction occurs.

Without suffering, there is no inquiry,
   no need for inquiry.
Suffering arises "here", so there is
   inquiry.
The ending of the basis for suffering
   is the ending of inquiry.
To say "there is no 'me' or 'it'" while
   friction continues is not useful.
So, it's not about "having the right answer",
   it's about really "looking into it" (and not
   from outside of it), so as to see directly
   how "friction" arises.

"The end of the inquiry" doesn't mean always smiling,
   always feeling supremely great or blissed out,
   always having positive thoughts (all of that is
   an idealized image rather than simply "what is").
"The end of the inquiry" isn't determined by any
   criteria, measurement, or observation from
   "a position outside" (or "inside" for that matter ;-).

It is its own criteria, there is no one "else" there
   to judge it.  It's not of "the past," not memories
   nor words spoken in the past, *not something gained
   and then brought forward*.  Thus, any position
   taken about It, or attributing it to a particular
   person, experience, or situation, has limits.
   Itself has no limits.  Positions about it have
   limits, *particularly positions that localize it
   somewhere in space and time*.

Suffering can arise in many ways;
   the response is always simply
   to "look into 'what is'".

This inquiry is a natural, choiceless
   response to the experience of
   splitness, of "me" and "it", of
   tension between the reality that
   is present and the image of what it
   should be, needs to be, etc.  The
   inquiry is only awareness noticing
   clearly the reality of itself, as is.
   It is not awareness apart from "this"
   not anything other than
   exactly "this" as presents itself
   "here".

If I attempt to make someone else's
     description, plan, explanation, or
     experience real for me, all I have done
     is split myself from who I am this moment.

This inquiry is not an attempt to receive Grace,
    gain an enlightenment experience, be "in
    the know", etc.  It is not an attempt to
    manipulate reality, to be like someone else,
    to have reality conform to an idea,
    to have a different experience than this,
    or to formulate a conclusion
    that will explain everything.

This inquiry is only the necessary and choiceless
    response of awareness to its own self-constructed
    dilemma.

Can awareness notice how itself is
    rejecting its own being, constructing
    distance, this instant?
It is this construction of distance that
    defines a 'self' confronting an 'other' in a process
      taking time, psychologically.

Distancing begins preverbally, through a felt sense
    that "something outside is affecting me in a way
    I don't like", or "I'm uncomfortable and something
    needs to be different".  Inquiry can go to the
    preverbal awareness in which "self" and "other" split,
    not just to thoughts about a "me".  This is not
    a journey backwards to a remembered time, it is
    a nonjourney of "now" because this split occurs
    nonverbally and cognitively "now".

Notice "distancing" as: "I exist and need
    to take care of this existence,"
    "I need to protect myself"
    "this isn't good enough,"
    "I need to control what I'm feeling and thinking,"
    "I need to solve this," "I need security",
    "I need to be somewhere I'm not," "I need
    to fit such and such image," "I need to get
    something I lack," etc.

Inquiry isn't an attempt to stop "distancing", make
    it go away (that itself would be "distancing").
It's "looking into" (*not* from an "outside
    position") the nature of "distancing" or
    "separation" as it occurs.

This "noticing" takes no time, psychologically
    speaking.  Time is simply
    awareness postponing
    its being by projecting another moment when
    "I will know something" or "I will have what I need".
    Being is rejected
    as soon as I assume a continuing position, project
    a place I need to be, or invest energy in maintaining
    a description or explanation.

So, one's inquiry can "look into" the continuity assumed
    in the inquiry itself, the assumption that
    there is a consistent process of inquiry being
    maintained over time.

This instant does not continue.
It does not come from someplace "else",
    nor from "the past".

There is no one "else" here.
Nothing is continuing here.
There is not a process toward a goal here.
There is no room for anyone here.
There is not even a space for "here" nor
   time for "now".

_________________________________________________________________________

MELODY ANDERSON

I have two true friends - one guy, one gal.

One reason I consider the guy my best friend is because I
know if I would ever beg or manipulate for his attention or
solace -

rather than him opening his arms for a big hug, or giving
me a pat on the head, he would have simply laughed his ass
off.

And then, after a few difficult minutes, so would I.

Even though I haven't spoken to him in weeks, I can hear
his loving laughter ringing thru my body even as I write
this, and it makes me smile.

My gal pal's response would have been more delicate, but
everybit as effective.

From neither of these friends would I have received solace,
nor a warm blanket, nor the pat on the head I was looking
for.

That's why I'm so grateful for their love

and grateful I'm finally healthy enough to recognize it.

_____________________________________________________________________________

BRUCE MORGEN


I have said this a few times on this forum, but even at the
risk of
sounding repetitive, let me narrate this one more time:
someone at
Rishi Valley asked K (when he was nearing his end): "Sir,
what is
the message." K thought for a second, looked at the
questioner
and in the clearest of clear voices replied: "Sir, you are
the
message."

________________________________________________________________________________

MIGUEL-ANGEL

OSHO: "Left to nature itself it will not grow; just left to
evolution it will never evolve. You have to do something
consciously, you have to make a conscious effort about it,
because only through consciousness it grows. Once
consciousness is focused there, the growth happens."

This quite contrasts with what Nisargadatta had to say:

"There is nothing we can do, we can only let things happen
according to their nature." (I Am That, page 496)

"The self-styled gurus talk of ripeness and effort, of
merits and achievements, of destiny and grace; all these
are mere mental formations, projections of an adicted mind.
Instead of helping, they obstruct." (I Am That, page 422)

*****

UARLOVE: Ramana Maharshi says the world will disappear, he
even has gone further to state that the Self will not be
Realized unless the world disappears.

MIGUEL-ANGEL: And I am ready to bet you what you like (say
$1,000) that when _you_ end your ego notion the world will
not disappear. Take it?

I know you won't take it, because either the world will
disappear and then I won't be there to pay you, or it won't
and then you'll have to pay me.

___________________________________________________________________________

XAN

Killing the ego
is like trying
to drain the water
from a mirage.

___________________________________________________________________________

MARK: I think aspirants tend to focus on everything and
anything, and hopefully become skilled at distinguishing
what is true and what is false. I truly believe that this
is helpful, however the final unveiling comes crashing in.
(any comments, Judi?)

JUDI: If a person's life really crashes on them, then maybe
they'll stop and take a look at what they're up to and see
the suffering seeking of what they're really all about. But
as long a person is just diddling along, happy with this
and whatever else teaching, they're not gonna bother. Like
Da used to say, like a dog they've got their bone and
they're happy chewing on it. And if you try to take it
away, they growl and snap at you. Not pretty. And it's not
what life is meant to be. But as long as they're happy
chewing on their bone, keeps them off the streets. :-)


--
We are the Nonduality Generation.
http://www.nonduality.com

JUDI AND MARK:

Mark:
I think aspirants tend to focus on everything and anything, and hopefully
become skilled at distinguishing what is true and what is false.  I truly
believe that this is helpful, however the final unveiling comes crashing
in.  (any comments, Judi?)

Judi:
If a person's life really crashes on them, then maybe they'll stop and
take a look at what they're up to and see the suffering seeking of what
they're really all about.
But as long a person is just diddling along, happy with this and
whatever else teaching, they're not gonna bother. Like Da used to say,
like a dog they've got their bone and they're happy chewing on it. And if
you try to take it away, they growl and snap at you. Not pretty. And it's
not what life is meant to be. But as long as they're happy chewing on
their bone, keeps them off the streets. :-)


MICHAEL READ AND MATTHEW:

Michael:
Guess what? There is no such thing as the not-Self!
Jokes on us! :-))

Matthew:
this may be true from an absolute non-dual perspective michael but
we all live AS IF there were such a thing. We are totally (except in
moments) identified with/as this "illusory" not-self. Therefore
Self-inquiry is urgently needed to make that distinction and break
the  identification.

Michael:
By all means make the inquiry. :-))
Honestly and with no expectations - ask!
That which asks is indeed the answer! :-))
It was always there
It is there now
It will be forever there.
You are THAT! :-)))))))

Loveya!

We only 'appear' to be separate - just for the 'heck' of it.

It's only rock 'n' roll but the I AM likes it!

HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!

Peace - beyond understanding - Michael




UARELOVE:

Pleasant news:
I am going to take a long break from
posting here and reading the posts here.


Michael:
Hey! Stick around you old button pusher!

HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!
Peace - Michael


HARSHA:
My dearest friend uarelove. I appreciate your passion and commitment to
Bhagwan Ramana's teachings. It is truly inspirational. Thank you for your
post commenting on what I had said.

My beautiful and wonderful friend, Self-Inquiry is indeed central to the
teaching of the Sage of Arunachala. Ceaseless inquiry into one's nature
means asking the question "Who am I?" and then bringing the full force of
one's attention to its own source. I have often in the past commented at
length on following the clue of the "I" and the practical aspects of this
Inquiry. In my view, holding on to the feeling of existence "I AM" under all
circumstances amounts to the same thing and leads to Self Realization.

When someone speaks of Ramana, my heart feels overjoyed as the teaching of
Sage is indeed the purest teaching that goes to the core of the matter.
Ramana Maharshi is the great light that shines in my heart. No one can go
wrong sincerely following the instructions of the Sage. Without worrying
about whether others are following the path properly or not, you should with
gentleness and steadiness and with compassion for yourself and others engage
in Self-Inquiry. The rest, as Sri Ramana often said, must be left in the
hands of the Guru, the Self, who sits in the Heart and Is the Heart.

Wishing you success on your path

Peace and Love


UARELOVE AND MIGUEL ANGEL CARRASCO

Uarelove:
In the last posting I looked at the dialogue that the quote
from page 496 came from and posted some more quotes from that
very same dialogue.  In this posting I will do the same with the
following quote from page 422:

Miguel:
"The self-styled gurus talk of ripeness and effort, of
merits and achievements, of destiny and grace; all
these are mere mental formations, projections of an
adicted mind. Instead of helping, they obstruct." (I Am
That, page 422)

Uarelove:
From the same dialogue page 424:
Questioner: "Perception is primary, the witness-secondary.

Nisargadatta: "This is the heart of the matter.
As long as you believe that only the outer world is real,
you remain its slave.
To become free, your attention must be drawn to the 'I am',
the witness.
Of course, the knower and the known are one not two,
but to break the spell of the known
the knower must be brought to the forefront.
Neither is primary, both are reflections in memory of the
ineffable experience, ever new and ever now,
quicker than the mind. "

Nisargadatta just said "To become free,
your attention must be drawn to the 'I am', the witness."
Once again giving instructions on what must be done,
just as his Guru gave him the same instructions on what must be done.
Wait a minute Nisargadatta! You will never sell anything telling
people they have to do something.  Oh yes, that is right,
it was not Nisargadatta who had something to sell so of course
he could tell people something needed to be done.
Then just who was that who says nothing needs be done,
no practise etc., who was that dynamic duo who just keep
repeating over, and over nothing needs to be done?
Nisargadatta how dare you contradict Wayne and Ramesh on every page
of the book I am that.
Where have I seen this pattern before?
Now lets see who came after Ramana Maharshi saying
nothing needs to be done?  Could it be Papaji and his
ambassadors? Folks you aren't going to sell anything
telling people there is something they have to do,
a practise etc.  If you have something to sell,
you have to tell them, there is nothing to do.

Still page 424, still same dialogue, and the very next question
and answer:

Questioner: "Sir, I am an humble seeker,wandering from
Guru to Guru in search of release. My mind is sick,
burning with desire, frozen with fear. My days flit by,
red with pain, grey with boredom. My age is advancing,
my health decaying, my future dark and frightening.
At this rate I shall live in sorrow and die in despair.
Is there any hope for me? Or have I come too late?"

Nisargadatta: "Nothing is wrong with you,
but the ideas you have of yourself are althogher wrong.
It is not you who desires, fears and suffers,
it is the person built on the foundation of your body
by circumstances and influences.

You are not that person.

This must be clearly established in your mind
and never lost sight of.
Normally, it needs a prolonged sadhana,
years of austerities and meditation."

Uarelove:
Most of you are already familiar with the
hunger site.

However it may be easy to forget to click
to donate the free food button everyday.
I am not familiar enough with computers to know
how one can initiate a reminder to click
every day.

The donations vary from 150,000 to 300,000 per day.
So people are not remembering everday to click.
Just in case there is some one not familiar with
the hunger site:

You can donate free food everyday just by clicking
your mouse.  There is no charge to you.
Since there is no charge to you,
why not click everyday?
If it is that easy and only takes a few seconds
of your time to give food to a hungry human
everyday why not do it?

There is no cost to you.

The way it works is you click the link
then you click the yellow button
that says donate free food.

Please add this link to your favorites
and click it everyday:

http://www.thehungersite.com

Now regarding why do I bother in an imaginary
world to do that?

Well simple lets call it dream control.

If it is as easy as a click of a mouse
once per day to make the dream
less of a nightmare and more of a dream,
why not click it?



DAN:

To undo 'doing' involves
    all of one's being.
This 'Nondoing' is far from passive,
    has nothing to do with
    doing nothing.

To practice no-method
    is far from aimless,
    it is not to be caught by
    'knowledge', it involves
    all of one's being.

The fullness of silence is
    not a product of thought,
    is "where no thought
    could possibly
    be constructed".

The mind seems to get caught
    in 'right' and 'wrong'
    quite easily.
Mind easily becomes involved in
    debates:
    Who has the right interpretation,
    whose is wrong, what is
    the right definition of practice,
    who is practicing the wrong way,
    who is right about the 'ego',
    etc.

As long as the mind debates
   who is right and who is wrong,
   the mind has a mission, it
   is preoccupied.

Reality has nothing to do
   with the mind's activity
   as it debates the right
   approach and the wrong
   approach.

So, 'nondoing' is just this:
   the mind's relinquishment
   of its project of self-continuation,
   the release of unnecessary
   mental and emotional activity.

Now, here is where That
   which is not the product
   of thought *is*.

-------------------------------------------------

DAN AND GLO:

Glo:
Hi Dan,

How you manage to say the same thing always so fresh and new.... so
beautiful.

This time we really are galaxies passing again... still have to pack, but
have to say at least...

I love you,
Glo

Dan:
Yes, dear Glo, there's always only
   the same thing.
And it's never the same.

From this galaxy to that,
   transmitting energy
     for a happy
      intertransubstantiation
        as Space unfolds
          itself.

Blessed be,
Dan


MELODY AND MARK:

Mark:
(does the "LOve, Mark" make you think or make you grin?) (or
neither...) (or both?)

Melody:
For me..... neither.

Mark:
Do you see what I'm saying, or am I pissing in the wind?
(no wonder i'm all wet...) what was that about showers?

Melody:
Frankly it sounds like blah, blah, blah to me, Mark.
But I'm certainly no gauge for such things nowadays.


Is this the first time you and I have directly interacted here?  I was
walking out from my office to go to my lab yesterday just after you had
posted something (I seem to remember it mentioned a decision about
posting or not posting?  maybe I misremember-I'd check but it's on my
computer at work and I am still home).  Anyway, I noticed as I was
dashing along that Billy Joel song running around like a wise guy in my
head "Well we're all in the mood for a Melody, and you've got us feeling
alright..."  I almost ran back to post it, but I've been pretty manic
lately and thought enough is enough.  If the list is not tired of me
yet, they surely will be soon.

The "love, mark" thing is the only thing I ever say here.  If I share
some personal story about unfolding (or folding back up for that
matter), it's my attempt (well, maybe once in a blue moon it's not so
much an attempt as a guided sharing), but mainly it's my attempt to
connect.  People complain about the use of the word love because it
doesn't connect people, but why doesn't it connect people? because they
perceive it as not connecting people.  If one demeans the word and
actively forbids the meaning to be present, of course it won't be there.
That's the free will.   If I say it, but I don't mean it, sure I can
cover it over with the overuse, but am I doing that? Can you tell?  Do
you allow the word to have no meaning by your treatment of it as an
incoming message.  Oh, I've heard that one before...  How will you treat
the word when it comes from someone who really means it?  How many
opportunities for the real immersion into beingness with someone do we
miss because we have made the assumption that the words are lies?  It's
this mass assumption that must be broken down, must be discarded.  It's
false.  There is an inherent thing that humans are, and the best word
I've heard for it is love.  Beingness is a good word too, but I think it
was put to this use because of the jaded nature of our relationship to
love.  Well, this is all just to avoid answering your question below, so
let me go there and try to answer. (see, you are right. it is just blah,
blah, blah. - but you are also wrong.  it's blah blah blah-ness is a
defense I am using. defense against what?  love, I answer.

Melody:

You seemed to be touching some anger....and then all of a
sudden it evaporated.  What was that about?

Mark:
Oh my, how much time do you have to read my reply?  How much time do I
have to type it?  Well, not much, so let me try to start.  Anger - I'm
afraid of anger because I have the perception that I have a lot of it
stored up, and when I let go and directly experience it, I have not yet
learned how to sit and do so quietly.  I break things (like my hand for
example) and I get arrested for it and I harm relationships with people
about whom I care and...  So I drink.  heavily.  I'm an alchoholic and
I'm completely out of control.(no, that's too strong, but I am not
completely safe either.)  There.  That's something to be angry about.
How can I post this?  My email moniker is completely transparent and
there is a stigma about this disease.  And I am posting to a nonduality
group - spiritual seekers and adepts, the kind of folks that are
(supposedly) in control of their lives and getting close to
perfection... blah blah blah.  I can post it because it's true.  I can
post it because I need to hear that truth.  That's why I post everything
I post.  I'm very selfish, you see.  I know that my ego has me by the
balls. (or at least I think it does...  I think it's squeezing. hard.)
I think it's appearing to do this because it's scared to death for it's
very life.  There is so much talk here about ego death. kill the ego.
kill the ego. kill the ego.  Well the ego is fucking pissed.  I don't
like the ego.  I don't like Mark.  I think he's an asshole.  But you
know? At the same time, I love Mark.  He's a bone fide human being with
all that entails. He's scared shitless, and yet he continues.  Now how
do I solve THAT one? Oh well, my ego is perfectly safe.  clever and
resourceful...

How did it evaporate?  I answered to a silly name which reminded me that
I already know this is not so serious.  At least, i need not take my
story so seriously.  It's just a story.  It will end when another story
comes along to amuse me.  Shifting between those levels helps, but I am
determined to tell the story that I embarked on 41 years ago, red faced
squalling infant that I still to a large degree am.

So how is this coming across?  Is it blah, blah, blah?  It's real
(inside the story).  I am seriously wrestling with these issues, and I
personally (hear this as the projection that it is, but also hear it
from your guts if you are willing).. I personally think this list is an
opportunity (well, life is the opportunity, but the list is a part of
life...) to bring some honesty to what is happening.  I don't think your
"snit-fest" with Marcia is very honest.  I don't much care on who's side
that is, but I think Marcia's expression "pulled a Melody" was cute,
fun, useful, and RIGHT ON TARGET.  So if you are that target, then be
peirced to the core.  The arrow is healing if you let it in.  honesty is
only painful if you want to continue the lie. the phrase "Mark is an
alchoholic", for example, is a lie.  Mark is behaving like one and
heading for a fall, but Mark IS not anything.  If you identify with some
behavior that you don't like, then you will suffer.  If you have that
behavior in your repertore, but recognize it for what it is, a series of
thoughts and a series of decisions to act on those thoughts, that you
have written a script for and that you as an actor may either act on or
not act on, you will suffer less. (or so I'm told by that elite group of
special people who are enlightened teachers...hah.)

Melody:
For me, I found a kind of depression descend on me
today.  Seemingly out of no where I noticed a heaviness
and a pitifulness fill me.   Twice I noticed that I began
to distract myself away from it.  It took a lot of effort
to stay with it, to allow it, and not slip into unconsciousness
in it.

Mark:
That sounds helpful.  That's what i need to do with the anger.  And I
need to do it sober and I need to do it without theatrics.  see, I know
what I need to do.  why don't I do it?  because I'm afraid of the
consequences.

Melody:
After about 30 minutes of sitting and staying witness to it,
feeling it in my body, I began doing an EFT routine with it.
It only took about 10 minutes before it began to dissolve.

It's quite a different experience to actually watch a
depressive feeling dissolve, rather than simply 'wake up'
a few days later and notice the feeling had passed.

Mark:
Yes.  My anger of Tuesday night took most of the morning Wednesday to
evaporate.  The name game was very helpful in dispelling it.  So was
slowing down my walking.  I can walk through the outer office rapidly
and keep my rage, or I can slow down and interact with the kind loving
people there, but to do that I have to surrender.  They know this and
use it mercilessly to get me to smile.  It's a lovely setup.

Melody:
It was kind of like watching sugar dissolve into
water.  Nothing has really changed, though.
The 'depressiveness' still has the capacity to crystalize,
to separate from water,  at any given moment.

It was just really cool though watching it dissolve
today.

Mark:
thank you for sharing that.  (now isn't that just one of those sickly
sweet phrases that makes you want to vomit? not for me, it isn't...)



MELODY:

I will say WOW, and thank you very much
for your sharing.

You asked if this was the first time we have
interacted directly, and yes I think it is.  And
from what I've read in this post, I'm glad I waited.

Your sharing was so authentic, so open that
it felt as though you had cracked open your
chest, and invited us to see what lies 'underneath
the skin'.  And in that openness it is easy for me to see
how similar you and I ( and everyone else)  are....
underneath the masks we wear -

or as uarelove says, beyond the ego notion.

No blah, blah, blah read here today.

until later,




LYNNE:

Hi All of you,

Dahnae Radha stopped by our website today
and suggested that you visit the following URL:

    http://www.inspirationpeak.com/poetry/iamthere.html

Here is their message....

Dear Friends,

Here is a doorway to a place I like to go.

I had hoped to travel to Providence Rhode Island to see some of you this
weekend.  I will have to miss this time, but maybe next time?  Wish me
luck...
does anyone have any info they can share with me on the 12 Manjus(h)ris?
I'd be grateful.  It seems I'm to encounter them during this next week.
Love to all,




ED ARRONS AND DAN:

D: This inquiry is only this: looking into suffering
(friction between "me" and "it") experienced here,
and noticing how that friction occurs.

D: Suffering can arise in many ways; the response
is always simply to "look into 'what is'".

E: When it is seen that desire arises with
awareness, that "me"-"it" arises with desire, that
separation arises with "me"-"it", and that
suffering arises with separation, then our
dilemma/potential can be seen more clearly.


Thanks for being here, Dan

D:  Glad to be here, Ed.
     And appreciation here
       for this communion ;-)

     As, being here, silent presence
       speaks through us, "this".

     Let us see it clearly, this moment.

     "I" and "it" - how each is placed
       in contrast to the other, how
       the situation of self against
       other, and other against self
       occurs this moment.  How the
       old response of thought and
       emotion attempts to claim
       a space that can't be claimed.

     The moment of noticing is now.
     There's no time to draw a conclusion,
       to present a finding, or to
       make an explanation.
     Because in doing those things, one
       has separated from "now".
     No chance to imitate how someone else
       looked, or to find what someone
       else said was there.


GENE TO ED and DAN and DAVE

Ed, your remark

Typically the self vacillates between objective duality
and subjective nonduality according to the degree of
separation experienced.  Within the swings is noticed
different points of identity according to conditioned
experience.  At the very 'center' is a point of non-
identification, a 'transcendence point', which is the
key to Selfhood.


G:
Nice, Ed. What you said, does mean something; I am unsure what, but
it rings true to me.

Perhaps it is useful to point out, that as a person reaches out
'experimentally' in order to touch things, thus to 'see what
happens', that the feedback they receive (what seems to happen upon
touching something), is itself what eventually defines the boundaries
or 'parameters' of what is assumed to be self. That is to say, that
there are areas in which touch (of any kind) produces discernable
effects, and there are (apparently) areas in which touch produces no
discernable effect.

An example of this is 'prayer'. One intends to reach out, to touch,
to effect, but may notice a distinct lack of feedback; it is upon
this observation that one may decide that prayer is nothing, that God
is nothing, that this is an area which cannot be touched, and thus
must be let go of. For many, it seems that once having tried swimming
in the air, and having found no support, the effort is abandoned.

So if we assume that touching and 'verification' of touching, IE
feedback that we have actually touched something real, are the
criteria by which 'reality' is determined, that (touch and feedback)
'method' will prevail. Science  comes to mind here.

This 'method' is commonly extended to what is defined as 'spiritual
awareness'. If we seek independent verification of 'spiritual
reality', we are expecting some kind of distinct feedback, which will
inform us of the 'realness' of what we have 'discovered' and are
touching. What ramifies from this extension of the 'scientific
method' into the territory of 'spiritual reality', is the phenomenon
of spiritual fascism.

Those who have been "world-dream" (Samsara) conditioned from birth,
will continue to use the methods of the dream, to attempt what is
defined as 'awakening'. The strategies of the world-dream will be
applied willy-nilly to the 'spiritual search and work'. Chief among
these strategies, is the criteria of PURITY. If you think about it,
this sort of 'purity' can only be defined _externally_, and thus we
have 'teachers', to whom we turn for help in 'parsing out
impurities', thus to aid us in 'awakening'.

In the world-dream, the qualities of DEVOTION  and LOYALTY have high
value, and are carried over into the 'spiritual work'. The promise of
'salvation' (however it is defined) is a lure which will justify
devotion and loyalty; the 'aspirant' will parade this version of
purity in front of those soon to be left behind. In the world-dream,
it is acceptable to say to laggards, "Eat my dust!" (or verbutti, as
the case may be).

To appear to be a good and pure person, is to lock oneself into the
matrix of the world-dream; to continue to use any strategy
whatsoever, such as 'effort' or 'no-effort', depends for success upon
world-dream verification of success. Feedback from those who have
been 'left behind' is thus highly valued by those who have 'gone
beyond'. By now, you may be getting the idea that this whole defined
catagory of 'spirituality' is a circus of delusion and superstition,
which is one of the points I wish to make as I write this.

In truth, the world-dream (Samsara) can give no accurate feedback,
other than simply being what it is. If one realizes the difference,
one then exists apart, with no self-definition. All definitions are
grounded (rooted) in the world-dream, and thus fall short of
suitability for self-definition. A common error is to emanate the
finest, most subtle, rarified of poetic self-definitions, as a method
of pointing out the above-noted difference, but it becomes obvious
that to do so, merely establishes a 'higher bar' for the 'spiritual
aspirant' to leap over. Truly, there are no definable criteria for
proving (to oneself or other) the reality of 'true and utter
spiritual transcendence'. Any criteria proffered, if acted upon,
merely acts as deeper attachment to the world-dream.

If you (any reader) think about it, you may see that no matter how
subtle and rarified the criteria, all criteria are rooted in the
world-dream. The world-dream is simply a traditional matrix of
agreements, chief among which is the use of language. The use of
language is itself a very powerful agreement, a sort of consensus
among many people. Security is found in the world-dream; thus the
world-dream language, is devoid of any words which would disqualify
(dismantle) the dream. This is simply 'why' the use of language is a
virtual guarantee that one will stay in agreement (the world-dream),
to heroically fight to 'awaken', while remaining submerged in a
group-dream of consensus which states that nobody can escape from
'reality'. To actually escape, one needs to abrogate ALL agreements,
and to be ultimately comfortable carrying NO self-definition.

Here,

==Gene Poole==


Dan:

Well-said, Gene.

As the structureless reality
   is seen appearing as structure
    itself, there is nowhere to
     cling.  To call this 'void'
      is far too much description.

"I have overcome the world."

-- Nameless One



Dave:
At first it seems as though it is human limitation
which distorts the structureless reality, that is to say
fault of intellect and senses to name two, but then
it is realized that such is the intention.

Where does it come from this image. Are there sensors,
intellect that is ours? Memory erased!

A swirl in the collective consciousness generates the relative
apparitions and THIS appears, but until the twinkling eyed
glance of Grace touches upon it, collective memory remains dormant.

Is it hidden on purpose? It seems so. Is it intended to
remain so? If it were not for Grace, one would have to say "yes"
there too.

So, here are all my words, along with all of yours to
touch the scintilating fabric in the intent to jog
the collective memory.

It's true, nothing here is the answer, and in the end the questions
and inquiries are of little significance.

Our models and words fall in ruins as the collective memory
begins to remember the truth, it's passed this way before until
achieving its blessed escape.



MIGUEL ANGEL CARRASCO:

Just one (double) question:
1. Who is to make Self-inquiry, who is to make the
distinction Self/Non-self?
2. Who is to put an end to identification?
Three possibilities: A) the mind, B) the Self; C)
nobody

If A, that's a vicious circle: the mind trying to stop
identification with the mind. Besides that is above the
mind's capacities: the finite mind trying to extricate
the infinite Self from its veil. So the mind can hardly
be the subject of Self-inquiry.

If B, then we have dualism: the Self before committing
the original sin of dentification, and the fallen Self
veiled by the nonSelf. But as the Self is one,
immutable and always without attributes, it follows
that there cannot be two kinds or states of Self. So
the Self is not the subject of Self-inquiry.

If C, then we have Self-inquiry as an automatic,
impersonal process, something that just happens, a sort
of self-induced elucidation of the mind's attitude. No
agent is needed here. Though then there is no place for
any idea of responsibility or choice, of method or
effort. It's all just automatic.

Any comments?

Miguel-Angel


MARK:

Miguel,

How about a combination play?  Like an alley oop in basketball or a
double play in baseball (why am I using sports analogies - I am soooo
uninterested in sports...)

So, the mind (A) accepts that it can't end its delusions, but tries
anyway.  This trying leads to moments of relative stillness (I call it
relaxation for some unknown reason). During such a moment of "guard-down
existence", the Self (B) is seen, having been obscured by all the mind
activity (kept away by all the defenses), and the Self (A is B) is
recognized (surrendered to), ending the illusion that the Self is being
sought.  "Oh, my God - so simple, here all the time..."  Yes, the joke
is on us.  (how humiliating... how lovely.)

So, seeker seek until exhausted, then allow the finding to be done.  Thy
will be done always - so seek if seeking is what you like. find, if that
is what you want.  Howsoever it shall be.   It's automatic only when
it's automatic.  My driving, for example is often automatic (although I
drive a standard shift...), but I had to practice driving quite awhile
before it could become automatic.  No, that's not it. Maybe I can get
closer...  Breathing is automatic unless you are controlling it.
Perhaps the ego self is analogous to control of  the breath, but even
worse because ego's on so much of the time that it seems like the only
possibility, and the ego is so capable, that it can distract us from
noticing the times when it's relaxed.  To stop controlling it, one needs
to look at control and find its opposite - like NOT thinking of a pink
elephant when someone tells you not to think of a pink elephant.  You
can't control the control into letting go of control, but can you get
close enough for it to happen by grace?  I think so.  Watching ego is
helpful (said he watching himself lie through his teeth...)

All either/or questions are suspect. (or aren't they?)


MARCIA and ED:
Ed:
Marcia you are quite right...resonating to
my thoughts.  :-)

M: Isn't it possible "now" to notice the
arising of a thought? I don't have to identify
with the thought and actually begin to think
it is "me."

Ed: Of course it wasn't you, silly.  :-)

M: I don't have to think I am the contents of
mind.

Ed: Heaven forbid.  :-)

M: I don't have to draw a conclusion but
conclusions get drawn. As I notice elements,
a picture begins to form on it's own.


Ed: Now, now..don't go off half-cocked on
your own...and just keep smiling. :-)


XAN and PAPAJI:

When you have known thySelf,
you have known everything.
This is Awakening.
And this Awakening,
the whole universe is within yourSelf.
This is the ultimate knowledge.
And knowing this, you have known everything.
And if you have not known this, you have known nothing.

Dave wrote:
BE THAT
--------------------
Be what? Be your point of view which looks like nothing in a natural and
ordinary way. Being that nothing, you will be everything which looks
like something because there is nothing to keep it out. So be nothing be
everything at once. It's you!

Larry

-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.


A NET of JEWELS

July 14

The apparent differences that constitute our world of separate existences
are not intrinsic but only in the eyes of the beholder.


	 ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~


Life and living is a flow, and if we accept that flow and get into that
flow, life can be tremendously simple.


-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.


MELODY MARK and DAVE:

Mark:
Don't quote me.  I'm a fake.

Dave:
No you're not!
Words are nothing.
You know the heart is not that which beats.
It is always the way back.

Anything else, is separation
Mark is not
Mark is NOT
Mark, you are not what you believe yourself to be.

Come home Mark,
I love you
BE THAT
:-)


Melody:
Good morning, Dave....

What do you mean when you say "I love you"
to Mark?

What is it you love about him?

What is it exactly that is UNIQUELY 'Mark'.....which
is NOT 'fake' as he claims.....that you love?  Do you
mind specifying?

Do you love me as much as Mark, or in the same
way?

If so, then what does 'I love you' mean?

If not, then what does your 'I love you' mean?

Also, the question arises,

"What do you mean when you say to Mark,
'BE THAT' "?

Are you suggesting he should BE something he is
not presently being?  Maybe be THAT, but not THIS?

How can he possible be anything other than
what he is?

Be WHAT?

~~~~~~

Mark:
Hey Melody, Are you trying to break up our happy home??  (hee,
hee...)

Melody:
Nothing REAL can be broken, isn't that what THEY say?

Mark:
We should write a fake fakir FAQ,

I love the way this email conversation makes me higher than a
kite...

Melody:
AHA!   I knew it!

This is just too perfect, too funny,
just too synchronistic for words.

All I can do is roll on the floor with
joyous laughter.

And then hug you and
call you Brother.

~~~~~~

Dave:
Hi all,

Well, now that we're all gathered!

When I wrote this, it just came out. Something
of the moment. I don't want to interpret it for Mark,
because he already has his opinion, and there was no more intention
than that.

Every word was from the heart.

Mark: "I love the way this email conversation makes me higher than a
kite..."

Dave: You see!
       Now if Mark wants to know more, he can call me on it.
       I have no problem.

Melody: What do you mean when you say "I love you" to Mark?

Dave: THAT which to BE, and that he is not Mark.

Melody: Do you love me as much as Mark, or in the same way?

Dave: YES, and more so!

I hope I have answered your questions Melody. If there are others
that you have not asked, fire away.

Meantime, if Mark wants more, then perhaps I could give "my"
interpretation, or you could give yours.

True Love!
Dave

-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.

MICHAEL MATTHEW, MIGUEL ANGEL CARRASCO

Michael:
Guess what? There is no such thing as the not-Self!
Jokes on us! :-))

Matthew:
this may be true from an absolute non-dual perspective
michael but we
all live AS IF there were such a thing. We are totally
(except in moments) identified with/as this "illusory" not-self.
Therefore Self-inquiry is urgently needed to make that distinction and
break the identification.

Miguel Angel:
Just one (double) question:
1. Who is to make Self-inquiry, who is to make the
    distinction Self/Non-self?
2. Who is to put an end to identification?
    Three possibilities: A) the mind, B) the Self; C)
    nobody

If A, that's a vicious circle: the mind trying to stop
identification with the mind. Besides that is above the
mind's capacities: the finite mind trying to extricate
the infinite Self from its veil. So the mind can hardly
be the subject of Self-inquiry.

Matthew:
..............well the mind can't stop anything but we've gotta start
where we are and since most of us live in/through/as mind that seems
to be the place to start. When we first begin to investigate Inquiry
it begins initially as an activity of mind, a thinking process.We say
the words "who am I" ("who am I kidding" is what i use)we verbalize
it, think about it, using the mind to investigate, to question. We
begin at the begining. No point in getting ahead of ourselves.

MA:
If B, then we have dualism: the Self before committing
the original sin of dentification, and the fallen Self
veiled by the nonSelf. But as the Self is one,
immutable and always without attributes, it follows
that there cannot be two kinds or states of Self. So
the Self is not the subject of Self-inquiry.

Matthew:
---------------hmmm. Nonduality may be the truth of all existance but
like it or not we always have dualism. Always. We can use any
language we want to explain our existance, but we can't explain away
the hard and persistant fact of living in a dualistic world .There is
no such thing as nondual activity, or nondual speech. One can't
behave nondualistically. As long as there is a body with my name on
it there is a dualistic world, whether there is identification with
the body/mind or not.

Original sin? You must be catholic. Shit happens and so does
identification. It has been a given of human existance since day one
and hasn't changed at all.Fallen Self? You are definitely catholic.
Self becomes hidden as a very mechanical and predictable process of
identification.

MA:
If C, then we have Self-inquiry as an automatic,
impersonal process, something that just happens, a sort
of self-induced elucidation of the mind's attitude. No
agent is needed here. Though then there is no place for
any idea of responsibility or choice, of method or
effort. It's all just automatic.

Matthew:
....................more hmmmm. I don't buy this automatic thing.
Perhaps way down the road, but for 99.9999999% of us, that is really
jumping the gun. Lots of people have mystical visions, or piercing
nsights into the nature of reality and make assumptions of "progress".
There is a book out that I think is great called "Halfway Up the
Mountain, Premature claims to Enlightenment" by Mariana Caplan. It
really addresses the need to always Inquire, and never make
assumptions about what we take to be progress. A lot of people on
this site will be turned off though because it is written around
interviews with various spiritual "authorities" most all of whom are
proponents of the teacher/student-guru/devotee path, which alone i
think is enough to set most people here to gagging.


-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.


DAN:

Dear Matthew,

I see it this way:
Nonduality isn't a category,
   isn't a realm that is separate
   from duality.

Nonduality, not a category, subsumes
   all categories; not a realm,
   subsumes all realms; not a body,
   subsumes all bodies; not an activity,
   subsumes all activities.

This body-mind does not need to be
   shed for nonduality to be real,
   (i.e., to be "realized").  Rather,
   what is shed is investment
   in, identification with, the categories
   constructed by the body-mind, and taken
   as grounding of reality.  Ultimately,
   the category "body-mind" is also
   shed as a point of identification.
   If I shed the body-mind as a point of
     identification, no one needs know I
     did this.  No celebration needs
     to occur.  In fact, there is
     no one "else" here to know.

   Other body-minds can
     look at a particular body-mind to
     try to decide whether disidentification
     has occurred.  However, that is
     simply judgment on the level of the
     body-mind.

If each day, I open to Reality as is,
     that is enough.

As the Real is known as Real, the
   unreal previously taken as "known"
   is shed.

As the Real is omnipresent, opening
   may occur, potentially, in any
   situation.  For some, opening my
   occur through a guru-devotee relationship;
   for others, opening may occur because
   a breath was taken at a particular moment
   and sensed in a particular way.

As the unreal falls away, one opens
   to the Real as omnipresent, and
   one sees that there are many, many
   ways the Real my present itself.

Teacher-student relationships,
guru-devotee realtionships, friend-friend
   relationships, lover-lover relationships,
   or someone living alone with minimal
   human relationships - any of these
   may assist opening.  Who is in a position to
   know what will be the facilitative experience
   for all body-mind constructs?
   People have talked about ways
   that war-time experiences or being in jail
   were facilitative for spiritual awakening.
   There can be no prejudgment about this unfolding.

   Reality may shine through any moment,
     and "you" may help "me" as teacher, friend,
     guru, student, lover, but the "ultimate
     help" is when there is disidentification
     from any and all constructs.

   There is no way that full disidentification from
     constructs could depend on any particular
     construct (e.g., "God," "guru", "lover," etc.).
   Full disidentification can only occur as simultaneous
     non-definition by or through any and all
     constructs.  This "sudden awareness" might occur
     in the presence of a teacher or not, with
     others or in solitude, there are many, many
     stories that show what a gamut is involved.

   Yet no story can show the side of this that is
     wordless, not happening "to" anybody, not
     a space-time event.

Out of words,
Blessed be,
Dan


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

DAN and DAVE:

Dave:

So, here are all my words, along with all of yours to
touch the scintilating fabric in the intent to jog
the collective memory.

It's true, nothing here is the answer, and in the end the questions
and inquiries are of little significance.

Our models and words fall in ruins as the collective memory
begins to remember the truth, it's passed this way before until
achieving its blessed escape.


Dan:
The ancient city lies in ruins,
   its vanities and frailties
   exposed, jungle vines growing
   over its remains.

If one listens quietly, echoes
   of its many past lives are heard,
   the shouts of its claims to truth,
   the laughter of its enjoyments,
   quivers of its fears and doubts,
   cries and whimpers of its
     various cruelties.
Echoes seem to reverberate
   in what is left of its
   edifices, yet fade softly
   and easily into silence.

Shards of thought and fragments
    of memory scattered here and there,
Questions and answers strewn about,
    corroding in the sunlight.

And the sunlight streams everywhere,
    not caring whether or not
    a new city is constructed,
    knowing that the light will stream
    on, regardless of how many
    cities come and go.

More ancient than time,
    newer than the morning's breeze,
This is the true city, having no buildings,
    absent of all artifice,
    only living sunlight itself.

-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.

MARK and MARY

Have you seen this web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/md/sufimusfadharidas/newpage.index.html


I like this excerpt from it:

THIS TOO, SHALL PASS, A powerful king, ruler of many domains, was in
a position of such magnificence that wise men were his mere employees.
And yet one day he felt himself confused and called the sages to him.

He said: 'I do not know the cause, but something impels me to seek a certain
ring, one that will enable me to stabilize my state. 'I must have such a
ring.
And this ring must be one which, when I am unhappy , will make me joyful.
At the same time, if I am happy and look upon it, I must be made sad.'

The wise men consulted one another, and threw themselves into deep
contemplation, and finally they came to a decision as to the
character of this ring which would suit their king. The ring which they
devised was one upon which was inscribed the legend: THIS TOO, SHALL PASS.
WHAT SHALL I BE?, I have again and again grown like grass; I have
experienced seven hundred and seventy moulds. I died from
minerality and became vegetable; And from vegetativeness I died and
became animal. I died from animality and became man. Then why fear
disappearance through death? Next time I shall die, Bringing forth
wings and feathers like angels:

After that soaring higher than angels--What you cannot imagine. I
shall be that! (Jalaludin Rumi)

Love, Mary

-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.

MARCIA and DAN:

Marcia:
I don't have to draw a conclusion but conclusions
get drawn. As I notice elements, a picture begins
to form on it's own.

Dan:
Where is this picture situated?
    I have come to no conclusions
    about this...

Marcia:
I guess it is a 'sense' of how things really are or what
is needed in the moment. A total information processing.
If I am standing directly under the light no shadow is cast.
The 'response' comes through me. 'Nothing' is blocking or
being blocked. Mind if free to process information and
when enough has been accumulated, right action occurs.

Dan:
How can there ever be
    enough information to
    know the picture is
    complete enough?

Accumulating more and
    more, then suddenly,
    release!

What about this:
    no information,
    no gap,
    immediate response?


-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.


MARK:
Hi Gang,

I wrote this a few years ago and just rediscovered it:

Marble

I look into marble, see the smooth path along the grain;
Feel an insistent tugging and I enter, naked, alone, wondering...
How I move in there is just how I move.
I don't know if you can hear these words - don't know how to guide you,
Except to say, look for the grain and follow it to your source.
I don't mean follow it back to your source - Follow yourself forward and
find It.
The source of the ocean is the ocean!
Rain and stream are but experiences along the way.
They are no different.
Just be.

Dunno what it means, but I like it.  (It's only knock and know-all, but
I like it  - Genesis)


MELODY responding to MARK:

Hi Mark,

After letting your post sit with me for a day, I particularly
struck by these parts of your sharing I respond to below,
because I see 'me' so much in these words from 'you':

<
The "love, mark" thing is the only thing I ever say here.  If I
share some personal story about unfolding (or folding back up for that
matter), it's my attempt (well, maybe once in a blue moon it's not
so much an attempt as a guided sharing), but mainly it's my attempt to
connect.  People complain about the use of the word love because it
doesn't connect people, but why doesn't it connect people? because
they perceive it as not connecting people.  If one demeans the word and
actively forbids the meaning to be present, of course it won't be
there. That's the free will.   If I say it, but I don't mean it, sure I can
cover it over with the overuse, but am I doing that? Can you tell?
Do you allow the word to have no meaning by your treatment of it as an
incoming message.  Oh, I've heard that one before...  How will you
treat the word when it comes from someone who really means it?
>

As I hear what you're saying here, you say 'love, Mark' as
your way of connecting to people.

If I understand what you're saying, I truly do believe you
'mean it', but the question arises,

Why do you want to connect to people?

What's the payoff?

Why does it matter if someone believes you 'love them',
or not?


Sunlight is reflected by a lake.

Does the sun INTEND to be reflected by the lake?

Does the lake INTEND to reflect the sun?

And yet the two are connected....you can
see the sun in the lake....because both the
sky and the lake are clear enough....are both
free of cloudiness.....that they can touch one another.

Yet here we are, you and I, Mark....INTENDING
to share and connect with one another, and
giving a damn whether anything reflects our 'love'
or not.

I realize that for me.....when I feel the need
or desire to 'connect'.....I am wanting to get
OUT of myself....to escape what I'm currently
experiencing......which, in my case, is generally
a kind of depression, a sense of being 'small'
or empty.

I realize that in this 'smallness', I am looking
to be fed.....looking to 'eat' or 'drink' somebody
in ....and to be made to feel 'fuller'.

I wonder if it is similar with you.

I'm not suggesting that this 'connecting'  I
do is wrong in anyway.  Quite the contrary.  It
is perfect.  I'm only suggesting that we do this
'sharing' and 'connecting' wide awake....

to do what we're doing, until we're finished doing
it.......until we're ready or willing to completely
be eaten by the emptiness (in my case),

and by whatever this 'connecting' might save YOU
from experiencing.

My computer time is short these days, and if you're
going to the retreat, yours will likely be as well.

But if you're willing, I'd like to continue looking at
'me' through 'you' .... as time permits.

Melody

-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.


Spiritual Awakening:  http://www.egroups.com/group/spiritualawakening

From the Wisdom Radio/Internet website:

Series Name:  Spiritual Awakening
Host:  James Bean

Series Synopsis:  James Bean is the host of the radio program "Spiritual
Awakening" and a book reviewer, with a broad familiarity with global
religious and spiritual traditions.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Program Name:  James Bean's topic is "Inner & Outer Peace Through
Meditation," Part 1 (#34)

Episode Synopsis:  Join Spiritual Awakening with James Bean as he talks
about "Inner and Outer Peace Through Meditation. (Part One):

In this society we’re taught about developing ourselves both physically and
mentally, yet almost no one teaches us how to develop spiritually. Rajinder
Singh’s book "Inner and Outer Peace Through Meditation," Element Books,
covers many aspects of meditation: meditation and world peace, meditation
and social justice, meditation and individuals becoming peaceful in thought,
word, and deed, meditation and mysticism --the near - death experience and
OOBE’s (out-of-body-experiences), meditation and self-realization -- knowing
who we really are as a soul, and God-realization -- knowing our Creator. The
forward to this book is by the Dalai Lama.

Date / Time:  Sunday     July 16, 2000      9:00 AM (all times Eastern),
repeated again:

Sunday     July 16, 2000      12:00 PM
Sunday     July 16, 2000      3:00 PM
Monday     July 17, 2000      1:00 AM

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Spiritual Awakening is heard on the internet via Wisdom Radio every Sunday
morning at 9 Eastern Time (6 a.m. Pacific), and at other times.

Got to: http://www.wisdomradio.com    then "radio," "live."  You'll need the
G2 or G7 Player, Real Audio.

Also available 24 hours a day (24/7) at the Wisdom site are several archived
editions of Spiritual Awakening, under: "programs on demand," "radio shows,"
"Spiritual Awakening."

A VERY QUIET DAY, ALL AWAY AT THE DIAMOND HILL GATHERING


DAN amd KKT:

KKT:  Sincere words are not sweet,
       Sweet words are not sincere.
                     Tao Teh Ching
and
       As for holding to fullness,
       Far better were it to stop in time!
                     Tao Teh Ching
~~~~

Dan:
These words you shared
   from Lao Tzu yet
   resonate - with a power
   succinctly conveyed
   from the 'original condition'.

An echo of something
   before infinity.

As an arrow that
   hits the target
   directly, with
   no wavering.

Pretty flowers fade,
   the Tao remains.

Sweet talk covers,
   concealing what is unhidden.
Sincere speech uncovers
   the obvious secret.

In going too far,
   our mistiming leads
   to obscuring the truth.

In knowing when not
   to go, the truth
   is our stability.

Yes - stop in time
  so restraint
  speaks with the
  clarity that is
  lost by overextension.

(KKT, the last stanza you
  quoted is quite far-reaching --
  in addition to appropriately
  commenting upon discourse
  in this forum, it can
  be applied to politics,
  relationships, Taoist
  sexual yoga, martial arts,
  and knowing original
  awareness.  Now,
  *that's* a powerful statement.
  ;-)

~~~~

KKT:
Dear Dan-ji,

Many thanks for always expressing very beautifully ;-)
I want to offer you a poem of a Vietnamese Zen Master,
Man Giac (1052-1096):

When spring goes, the hundred flowers wither,
When spring comes, the hundred flowers bloom.
One thing after another, life passes before our eyes,
Old age comes from above.
Don't think that all flowers fall as spring ends,
In the courtyard last night a plum branch bloomed.

Peace.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

GENE:

Gene:
Awareness, like space,
Contains all things,
Yet is itself invisible.

Pointing to invisible awareness
Materializes imaginings
Populating emptiness,

D: Yes, very complicated, so how to illuminate?

Gene:
One possible way is to eliminate 'beginner level' teachings,
which tend to use diverse and misleading analogies and metaphors.
Confronting the explorer with illusion-breaking riddles, such as the
traditional 'koan', will not let them off the hook.

One of the problems with many teachings is the use of simile; this
projects the assumption that if one can grasp what something is
'like', that one can thus know that something. This is the problem
with beginner level teachings of all kinds, as well as the many
attempts to present material in such a way as to imply that there is
salvation available through technique or 'ways'. If there were a
successful formula or recipe (algorithm) for 'attaining realization',
such would be in common use.

From my POV, there is a reliable biological timer running in each
person, which will key the release of multidimensional awareness, as
is appropriate. It is unfortunate that self-esteem has been linked to
'enlightenment'; that so many formulas for enlightenment are
promulgated, keeping the community of seekers in frantic,
hurdle-jumping motion, blaming themselves the whole time, for
something that is not defective, and does not need to be fixed.

~~~~

Gene:
To depopulate emptiness
Is to materialize awareness
As space itself.

When one points to what is not seen,
One who sees what is not there,
Sees what is there,

D: Requiring someone who sees what is not there!

Gene:
It seems that the world is populated by those who see what is not there.

This is the problem with the popular idea that one must 'banish the
illusion'. If one banishes the illusion, what will be seen?
Inevitably, just another version of the illusion.

If on the other hand, one can see that what is seen are imaginings,
one may be able to understand the operations of the imaginer or
'dreamer'. The question then becomes, "what is imagination, and what
is real?". Perhaps the answer to this question, is to know that
seeing what is seen is the unknown itself, thus to strip assumed
meaning from what is seen (and the seer), will allow one to know the
unknown as the unknown. Assumption of knowledge is the displacement
of unknown by 'veil'. Veil is preferable to the raw, unknowable
unknown, as  far as human feelings are concerned.

~~~~

Gene:
Seeing emptiness,
Is seeing awareness
Seeing naked space,

Naked space is emptiness,
Emptiness of imaginings,
Fullness of awareness.


Naked and aware...

==Gene Poole==

D:
Emptiness, the unknown is what's left
after throwing away all that you know.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Is David Hodges bringing
A Sitecam
By which to share the sharing?
(HS/NDS Gathering Diamond Hill)

Does the facility which hosts the Gathering
Have a broadband connection?
These questions have just occurred to me.

DAVID HODGES:

Hello Gene and all,
Alas, no Sitecam, no broadband to show you the love, smiles, laughter,
dancing, whirling, poetry, and fellowship of that gathering. I am back home
with many wonderful memories and a joyful heart. This is indeed a vibrant
community. It feels like the dawn of time and we have all awakened in some
post-historical Eden free to create the world as we see fit. From the
virtuality of cyberspace to the actuality of Diamond Hill Monastery was not
a big leap at all, indeed, it was a homecoming. It was wonderful to
discover Harsha's loving ability to bring the best out of people in
conversation, Christiana's dancing grace, OH's surprising embodiment of
clarity (she is anything but an Old Hag!), Nora's abiding presence,
Andrew's warmth and light, Victor's laughter and his propensity to break
out into song, Jerry's ability to sit with his elbows on a wooden kitchen
table for 14 hours at a stretch, Michael's compassion, Mark and Mary's
joyfulness and love for eachother and for us, Gloria's gift for keeping
such a individualistic bunch on some kind of path, Biff's oneness with the
group, Greg's teaching clarity and the way he beat time to Afro-Cuban salsa
using an upended meditation stool, and Petros's articulate interiority.
Plus we had some good cigars, lots of rain, and some terrific bullfrogs
calling from the pond down below.
Love,
David

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MICHAEL READ:

Just back to the cottage from the retreat. Having no qualities
to call my own, this is offered from the Avadhut Gita:

Verse 56.

Why do you weep, O mind? Why do you cry?
Take the attitude: "I am the Self!"
O dear one, go beyond the many;
Drink the supreme nectar of Unity!

----------------------------

Dear friends,

You are the Self.
Rejoice or be quiet.
You are the Self.

Peace - Michael

MICHAEL
Subject: Diamond Hill


Just back to the cottage from the retreat. Having no qualities
to call my own, this is offered from the Avadhut Gita:

Verse 56.

Why do you weep, O mind? Why do you cry?
Take the attitude: "I am the Self!"
O dear one, go beyond the many;
Drink the supreme nectar of Unity!

----------------------------

Dear friends,

You are the Self.
Rejoice or be quiet.
You are the Self.

Peace - Michael

______________________________________________

MARK replies:

> Why do you weep, O mind?

I weep with joy and relief and because my tears are ocean also.

> Why do you cry?

I cry to see the trembling beauty of a man who can reach down into the
vast ocean of suffering and bring up peices of his pain and show us how
they sprout wings as he feels them and lets them go. Sri, Sri, Sri
Michael.do

>
> Take the attitude: "I am the Self!"

Take an attitude, any attitude... It's a card trick until it is no
longer a card trick, it becomes magic,

>
> O dear one, go beyond the many;

Oh, sweetie pie, do this, but also stay here in the many. It's the same
thing, but with flavor.

>
> Drink the supreme nectar of Unity!

May I give you all a glass of juice?

Thank you Michael and everyone. I am so happy. so happy.
love, Mark
________________________________________________


Beloved friends and companions,

love feels good. let go and feel it. then recognize that everyone
likes to feel it. go give it away and notice further that it's the
giving that makes it feel good. then realize that if you want others to
feel good, you have to receive so they can give.that feels good too!
both are important. then wake up to the fullness of giving and receiving
are not two. just one.

such a lovely path. it's challenging because it feels SO good. that's a
GOOD thing if you don't take it personally...

he means it when he says
love, Mark
~~~~~~~~~
> in Love, there is no ambition.

Sure there is. I have the ambition to break through your seed coat, so
you can SWIM in this stuff!!!! matthew, don't be afraid of it. It's
warm and gushy and it hurts a lot. but the warmth and the bliss... oh
my. Marcia and Judi are saying the same thing but they both insist on
their particular wording. forget words. just love. love is it's own
reason, and it's an unreasonable kind of reason. yay. now BLEED on me!
I need watering daily. (hee, hee, hee)
____________________________________________


Hi Gene (no pun intended),

The gathering was very nice. I've got my own personal dj spinning
records in my head as I bask in the afterglow...

Midnight Oil: It all comes crashing in on me tonight...This is the end
of the beginning of the OUTBREAK OF LOVE, outbreak of love.

The Beatles: Play the game existence till the end... Of the Beginning...

Ziggy Marley and the Melody Makers: WAKE UP! (to the realization that we
are one...)

Louis Armstrong: I see friends shaking hands, saying how do you do...
They're really saying I love you, and I think to myself, what a
wonderful world...

The Grateful Dead: Strangers stopping strangers just to shake their
hands... Everybody's playing in the heart of gold band, heart of gold
band...

We danced together all weekend, and it was fine.

Love, Mark
________________________________________________


I knew it, you dented the world!
Felt it from here! :-)

You even filled the moon!

And the bullfrog croaks.

....imagine that!
And ALL for the same price!

Don't ya just love it!!!!

Manchine
__________________________________________

It was----
    Nothing!!!
  but such a much of Nothing!!!
   To see and talk in real space with strangers whom you
know intimately in cyberspace......
  i plunked myself down at the kitchen table and almost never
left it, as tempted as this bookworm was to peruse all the
interesting books that folks brought
  more anon love, nora
_______________________________________________

Hi gang,

I feel a poem coming on (kinda like an epileptic fit.  I hope it's a
good fit.)


Why hullabaloo over frogs?

What's all this fuss about teachers?
What's all this fuss about love?
Why seek nonduality?
Why look inside, or down, or above?

When you get something out of this discourse,
Give it away as fast as you can
Don't give it back, give it forward
Give it again and again and again

Give it with love's subtle flavors
Give it with mustard and jam
Give it with mince pie and tofu
Give it with plum flavored ham

When you think that you've gotten the message
Run as fast as your fat feet can run
Cause the message is trapped in a bottle
And you should be out in the sun

To receive divine radiation
Is surely a wonderful thing
Since it causes such groovy mutations
And who knows just what that will bring?

Well, I'm fucking tired of this poem
So I'm going to draw to a close
But first I will try to warn you
To alway stand nearby a hose

Cause if the flame from my hand
Should come near
Your candle-like skin would explode
Exposing your dark inner fear

That you might after all,
Probably in fact
Almost surely
Overeact

To the finding that there's no frog at all.

Fuck ya's all, I hate you,
Mark

~~~~~~~
funny.  i like it up to the point where I started questioning if i liked
it and i dislike it from there on.

caveat emptor,
Mark
____________________________________________________________

MELODY and MARK

Dear Melody (and I mean that one too.),

I'm going to cut and paste this lovely post into a different order so I
can respond to it... well, I don't know why, it just feels right.

Melody Anderson wrote:


Melody: But if you're willing, I'd like to continue looking at
'me' through 'you' .... as time permits.

Mark: oh my,yes... and we can take our time.  I so often feel rushed
about this, but that is silly of me.

> Hi Mark,
>
> After letting your post sit with me for a day, I particularly
> struck by these parts of your sharing I respond to below,
> because I see 'me' so much in these words from 'you':

mmmmm... and vice versa.  kinda neat, huh?  it's neat when what I see in
you makes me feel loving kindness and I then notice that the person
feeling that is me.  it's also neat when what I see in you makes me feel
the various defenses I have and I can notice that and say "What's up
with that?" (or in Michael's beautiful and helpful words "Who am I
kidding?")

>Mark had written:
> > The "love, mark" thing is the only thing I ever say here.  If I
> share
> > some personal story about unfolding (or folding back up for that
> > matter), it's my attempt (well, maybe once in a blue moon it's not
> so
> > much an attempt as a guided sharing), but mainly it's my attempt to
> > connect.  People complain about the use of the word love because it
> > doesn't connect people, but why doesn't it connect people? because
> they
> > perceive it as not connecting people.  If one demeans the word and
> > actively forbids the meaning to be present, of course it won't be
> there.
> > That's the free will.   If I say it, but I don't mean it, sure I can
>
> > cover it over with the overuse, but am I doing that? Can you tell?
> Do
> > you allow the word to have no meaning by your treatment of it as an
> > incoming message.  Oh, I've heard that one before...  How will you
> treat
> > the word when it comes from someone who really means it?
>
>
>Melody:
> As I hear what you're saying here, you say 'love, Mark' as
> your way of connecting to people.

No, I say love, Mark because everything I say is my way of connecting to
people (not always effective perhaps, but always intended in some way or
other)  "love, Mark" grounds me, something I need sometimes as my words
fly me around, lift me up like the strings of the puppet that I am,
sometimes pull me into dangerous airs, where I lose my balance.  It
grounds me so that I can connect safely. It reminds me of the intent
most of the time, giving me time before I send the email to see if it
sits comfortably in my chest.  Now that I see that (and I haven't until
this moment), I will try to hold that near so that I use it more
effectively.

>
>
> If I understand what you're saying, I truly do believe you
> 'mean it', but the question arises,
>
> Why do you want to connect to people?
>
> What's the payoff?

Payoff?  Connection is all there is.  why would i want anything else?
the connection is already there. I want to remove my obstructions so
that I can enjoy it all the time.  Now, I enjoy it so intensely when
it's clear that I am dizzy and clumsy, and I miss it so strongly when I
allow the curtain to drop that I rant and rave and rend my clothing.
(sorry, not trying to use the poetry as a shield, just running with the
feeling.)  I see this leveling as I clear the crap out, so that it's all
real sweet and just right.

>
>
> Why does it matter if someone believes you 'love them',
> or not?

Well, I project onto someone's words of disbelief my own disbelief,
which I find unpleasant.  I see that the projection is the painful
thing, but I presume (I dare to presume...) that if someone doesn't
believe my words of love, that they are suffering from a similar
projector (the movie theater companies had them mass produced) and that
they are therefore suffering in some way.  I would like for there to be
no suffering.  I think it's silly and I think it all arises from
witholding our love from each other and I am incredibly aware today of
how much I love the connection when I find it because I found so much of
it this weekend, and I have just looked around since, and seen so much
anger and unhappiness about disconnections.  It was fascinating and a
bit depressing to look into the eyes of people on the ferry the night I
came back home.  I connected with almost all of the very young children
and very nicely with one man who was also enjoying the children and
slightly with several others, but I saw a large amount of what looked to
me like distrust on the part of the vast majority of the people I looked
at.  It was stunning.  I sat awhile in crosslegged posture with my
sandals off, as the seats are quite deep, and one woman clearly
announced with her looks that she did not trust me and was going to
watch me like a hawk in case I came near her two lovely children.  I
don't believe that this was my projection.  I was just sitting there
observing.  It was so nice.  I usually would see this person and either
get up and go away real quick or sit and get angry at her.  I didn't
have any of that.  I just felt my heart open at the magnitude of this
societal/human race agreement to fear each other and to stay away.  It
is so hard to get close to anyone without a long introduction (which of
course this list provided those of us who were at the retreat, and the
rest of us as well, also of course...)
Wow.  thanks for asking the question.  I clearly had a lot on my mind
about this.  I want connection because it feels like it's somehow right
and healthy and that the norm of wariness is very ill.

>
>
>Melody:
> Sunlight is reflected by a lake.
>
> Does the sun INTEND to be reflected by the lake?
>
> Does the lake INTEND to reflect the sun?
>
> And yet the two are connected....you can
> see the sun in the lake....because both the
> sky and the lake are clear enough....are both
> free of cloudiness.....that they can touch one another.
>
> Yet here we are, you and I, Mark....INTENDING
> to share and connect with one another, and
> giving a damn whether anything reflects our 'love'
> or not.
>

Mmmmmm.... It's a very poetic metaphor, but I think that one must be
careful how deeply one trusts metaphors.  Metaphors are always
incomplete.  If they were a complete description of what they describe
they would be what they describe itself.  (okay, guys, go nuts with the
nonduality babble about this one... I stand by it. well, not to close to
it, but pretty close...)  The metaphor of the mirror for the love of God
(I like that, but use nonduality if you like that word better) is that
real mirrors are meant to reflect but not absorb light. (a perfect real
mirror reflects completely and absorbs nothing.) (I love that sentence.
It makes no sense at all, and yet it makes perfect sense to me, thereby
proving my theory that I am not rational)  I think the idea that a
perfect loving being totally reflects all that is around is completely
correct and useful.  This does NOT imply that a perfect loving being
totally fails to absorb all of that light.  Just the reverse.  Perfect
reflection is perfect absorption because there is no duality.  So one of
the main themes of the weekend was investigating giving and receiving.
The weekend worked very well because most are accomplished at both
giving and receiving.  I don't think any of us were perfect at either,
but I know I am not, as I perceive myself, so I am comfortable with the
idea that I was projecting all of that.  Nonetheless, when I went to
give, it gave me the most pleasure when my gift was accepted, and most
of my gifts were lovingly accepted and those that were declined were by
and large declined lovingly as well.  Now that is a sweet weekend.
Nonetheless, the gift of receiving gracefully that was given to me so
many times was eye opening for me and I see that my own giving is
compromised by my imperfect receiving.  I truly believe that perfect
giving is also perfect receiving.  Not keeping, but receiving.  Ah, but
this is a detour into my stuff, and not to the point.  The point is that
we do care about our giving and receiving.  I think that's a good
thing.  If we feel they are imperfect, and we care, we will do what we
can to change that. Yes, feeling that they are imperfect is the problem,
and as we dismantle that, the giving and receiving will become flowing
and natural and will make us happier than we are (than I am) right now.
Hmmmm...
thank you for the question.

>Melody:
> I realize that for me.....when I feel the need
> or desire to 'connect'.....I am wanting to get
> OUT of myself....to escape what I'm currently
> experiencing......which, in my case, is generally
> a kind of depression, a sense of being 'small'
> or empty.

There are two directions to go here, either of which may move you into a
space you like better (golly, there are an infinite variety of
directions, but I can describe two).  You can take the physicists
view... (what's that you say, I almost heard it with my ears...) bear
with me. The universe is a big place, yes?  (actually, it's REALLY big,
but don't worry about the numbers, I'll include them on the formula page
on the big test...)  And when you really listen to what the astronomers
say, it's almost COMPLETELY empty.  Really.  Huge tracts of vacuum.
It's like God is trying to scare off some predator.......... you've seen
those lizards that are actually fairly small, but they can puff up their
faces to look big and mean?   (do humans do that much?)  Anyway, empty
is actually completely big.  Go explore this sometime.  No really, sit
and picture empty and just be that. be empty.  let go of thoughts and
see what happens.  You'll never know if you don't try, and I promise it
won't hurt you.  much.  well, okay, it won't hurt me.  That's all i ever
talk about. me.  notice yet?

Another way to go is to ask to whom do you want to connect? In my case,
it's ME!!!! (sorta proves my previous hypothesis that all I ever talk
about is me...)  But why not sit and go inside and ask if there is
anyone in there? Is there?  You can't be depressed if you are doing
serious inquiry.  It's too interesting.  It's slippery and frustrating
and completely impossible until you realize you are always doing it and
that that is exactly what life is, and then life is so interesting and
fun, you will never worry about feeling small again, because you are too
busy puffing yourself up to deal with that predator.  oops that's a
secret, or was until now.

>Melody:
> I realize that in this 'smallness', I am looking
> to be fed.....looking to 'eat' or 'drink' somebody
> in ....and to be made to feel 'fuller'.

Ram Dass (Richard Alpert) tried to annoy his guru Neem Karoli Baba by
repeatedly asking how to become enlightened.  To his credit, Maharishi
was consistent with his answer.  He said "feed people"  This is what I
think he meant. It's the giving/reflecting thing all over again.  (Not
only do I never do anything but say love, Mark, which of course would be
more honest without the comma, but I never say it differently either.
how dull Mark is... )
Oh well, Maharishi was consistent too. I should be so steady...  He also
meant to feed people with food.  with everything that people need to
eat.  We are the food, the hunger, and the offered plate.

>
>Melody:
> I wonder if it is similar with you.

Yes, it is.  I am always begging for this food, on the street, in my
apartment, in all my humanity. in my divinity, i am always eating it and
always radiating it.  it goes around and around, always in new ways,
always delicious.  Even this starvation - just a new flavor. pretty
spicy, huh?  I love spicy food - an aquired taste.

>
>Melody:
> I'm not suggesting that this 'connecting'  I
> do is wrong in anyway.  Quite the contrary.  It
> is perfect.  I'm only suggesting that we do this
> 'sharing' and 'connecting' wide awake....

I agree.  It is so lovely.

>
>Melody:
> to do what we're doing, until we're finished doing
> it.......until we're ready or willing to completely
> be eaten by the emptiness (in my case),
>
> and by whatever this 'connecting' might save YOU
> from experiencing.
>

Completely eaten is it.  Offered completely and accepted completely.  We
see it only one way so often.

"we" - such a trickster that word.

>
> My computer time is short these days, and if you're
> going to the retreat, yours will likely be as well.
>
>
> Melody
>

yes, I do spend more time doing this than the rules allow.  but I'm not
sure I care for rules anymore.

Love, Mark
well, there it is.  I didn't really change the order much at all.  See
how I am continually wrong? yum
___________________________________________________________

MARK and MANCHINE on "Coming Home"

Hi Mark,

Sounds like it was an excellent time!


> Mark wrote:
>
> It was fascinating and a
> bit depressing to look into the eyes of people on the ferry the night I
> came back home.  I connected with almost all of the very young children
> and very nicely with one man who was also enjoying the children and
> slightly with several others, but I saw a large amount of what looked to
> me like distrust on the part of the vast majority of the people I looked
> at.  It was stunning.  I sat awhile in crosslegged posture with my
> sandals off, as the seats are quite deep, and one woman clearly
> announced with her looks that she did not trust me and was going to
> watch me like a hawk in case I came near her two lovely children.  I
> don't believe that this was my projection.  I was just sitting there
> observing.  It was so nice.  I usually would see this person and either
> get up and go away real quick or sit and get angry at her.  I didn't
> have any of that.  I just felt my heart open at the magnitude of this
> societal/human race agreement to fear each other and to stay away.  It
> is so hard to get close to anyone without a long introduction (which of
> course this list provided those of us who were at the retreat, and the
> rest of us as well, also of course...)

There are just sooooo many that don't understand.
That is the hardest, and yet most rewarding
part of it all. Don't you think?

If only that mother had the same thing in her that you did....
But she does. She just doesn't know it yet.

It's so special to be with people like at the retreat.
It's like a charging of the batteries, but that ability
to connect with whichever person is really no different.

The heart, and knowledge will get you anywhere (that you want to go)
Because after all you know them better than they do.

They are your projection.

And you are HIS.

Much Love,
dave
_______________________________________________________

Reply to Digest from CATHY Boucher
>
> > Subject: Re: What do you mean "I love you"
>
Marcia
But....one of my favorite things that de Mello says is....Happiness
  is uncaused. There is a subtle distinction here; one worth investigating and
  pondering. Love is not reasonable. It is not dependent on something else.
There is no reason for Love. There is also no reason not for Love.

--------------------------------
Mathew:
in Love, there is no ambition.

Cathy:
Love is identical to Being. This is beyond ambition, emotion or choice. Love is
who we are

_______________________________________________________________

MARCIA and JUDI

Marcia Paul wrote:
>
> You it occurred to me yesterday that there is
> more than one definition of seeking. There is
> seeking to find something; perhaps a going
> inward and outward in search of something.
> And there is a seeking to express or share that
> something. Personally I don't feel like I am
> looking for something. I am fine just exactly
> how I am. I already found it. :-) I seek to
> share it
>and I take it personally if it is not
> appreciated.
>
****** So, you're trying to tell us that you're enlightened
and you want to fill us all in? I see. :-) Marcia, Marcia, Marcia. :-)
No, please, permit me if you will. You are seeking attention.
Whether it be from another or directly from God Almighty Himself it's
all the same thing. And when you don't get that *attention* you suffer.
Seeking attention, be it from others, or from expereince, mundane
or from *on-high*.  In order to let something go,
you have to see it first, become concsious of it. That's the whole deal
with Gurdjieff and his teaching of *intentional suffering*. You got to
dig if you ever hope to get beyond suffering separateness. And it's
the avoidance of this fear, this fear of suffering, this rejection, this
something awful, that you don't want to really see, but you know deep
down is there, and you keep it hidden, even from yourself. And your life
becomes built around and is noting but the avoidance of this fear. Well
Gurdjieff says, go into this fear - intentionally!! It's also been
called the "Core Wound". See how your whole life and your whole identity
as a separate individual is being built on and around the avoidance of
it. STOP!  Now, as my girlfriend in Texas says, :-) ,you're gonna
come, either in the front seat with your bare feet up on the dash with
the air
conditioner vents pointed on you, and your fav tunes on the radio, or
you can come chained and drug from the back bumper, your choice, but
either way you're gonna come. God is the driver of this Cadillac car.
This is how you realize nonduality Marcia, is by
getting to the bottom of what separateness really is. This is
enlightenment.
This is God. This is your birthright. This is the promised land.
Freedom.
And this is my position. I recommend it!


>
> In certain types, yes.  Perhaps the morose and gloomy
> types.
>
******* No, if you're morose and gloomy, you're nowhere even near close.
This is an intelligent clear headed process, buck up girl! :-) Get on
that pony and ride! This is a happy affair! Ok, fine then, one kleenex.
But save it for after,
cause you're gonna be crying happy tears!!!

--
Happy Days,
Judi
__________________________________________________________

CHRISTIANA DURANCZYK

I've just loaded a collection of photos taken at the Diamond
Hill retreat in Providence:

http://www.egroups.com/files/NondualitySalon/Diamond+Hill+retreat+July+2000/

*****

Judi, thanks to the generosity of your many friends here, I
have funds
ready for you and possibly Merianne to fly to see your mom
whenever you
need to do so. Please send me your address and I'll mail out
a check.

For anyone who may have lost the link to contribute, it's:
https://secure.paypal.com/refer/pal=cpd%40well.com

_____________________________________________________________________________


GREG GOODE

As seen from here.

This was a remarkable retreat. A total and effortless
celebration of Love and Self. It was very much an in-person
extension of the activities of NDS and HarshaSatsangh.
There were endless stories and conversations at the
12-person kitchen table. Plus, we had book exchanges, and
few activities in the beautiful Korean zendo which was a
Kwan Yin Hall (Kwan Yin, the Bodhisattva of compassion). It
was right in our building! We had meditations which were
seated, walking, talking, and whirling meditations - all
celebratory. There was salsa dancing, sitting on the
lakefront, walks in the woods, and an outing to eat pizza.

We want to do it again. One of my friends, Michael Rosker
here in NYC, is not a lister, but wants to come along next
time. After hearing about it, he declared that in 15 years
of spiritual activities, he'd never heard of a group outing
with so much grounded love and clarity. Petros might come
down NYC-way to hang with us one of these days, as Petros
and Michael know many of the same people across the
country.

The only lister I had met face-to-face before this
gathering was Christiana. So everyone was brand new, even
Christiana! Here are some capsule description/impressions
as seen from here, of the wonderful and beautiful people at
Diamond Hill. I THINK I got everyone. Please remind me and
forgive me if I forgot anyone. The monk who made our meals
while we were jabbering at the table seemed to smile and
perk up his ears at the conversations.

Andrew - A wry, witty, intelligent sense of humor that is
always kind. With an unerringly accurate ability to sum up
any conversation in fewer than 10 words! Might be a
breatharian, I don't remember seeing him eat anything, even
though he came for pizza with us...

Biff (Glora's husband) - So far, not a post-er to
NDS/Harsha. Razor-sharp intellect, combined with tender
curiosity and an open heart. With salt+pepper hair and
beard, like a wise scientist or a dignified ship's captain.

Christiana - Living, serving compassion combined with
psychic and intuitive and artistic abilities, always there
for any/everyone at every moment. Dances beautifully to
salsa, and likes spicy curly fries.

David - Sweet, tender and selfless, with radiant angelic
energy emanating from his physical form and kindly face. I
wanted to talk to him some more but he had to go home
before Sunday. Posted great driving directions, saving us
from major traffic jams on the drive through Connecticutt.

Gloria - Divine-mother energy, honest and courageous. The
actual backbone of the retreat. Gave us form and direction,
or we'd have sat at the kitchen table aimlessly yakking for
18 hours a day. Brought her sweet husband Biff. She has a
touch of a Southern accent, a beautiful way of drawing out
words, especially as heard with NYC ears!

Harsha (pronounced "HERsha") Our fearless HarshaSatsangh
leader. - Always joyfully celebrating everyone's uniqueness
and special-ness. Impossible to feel bad in his presence.
Likes fruit and tea for breakfast. Much better looking than
Deepak Chopra.

Jerry - Our fearless NDS leader. The guy who, the closer
you look, just isn't there. Always giving everything to
everyone else, like the compliments we give him, and love
and other stuff. Well, everything except those
whipped-cream-filled chocolate Devil Dogs he likes for
breakfast.

Mark - A loving, beating, giving poetic Heart, temporarily
taking the form of a human being. Introduced the Jelly Roll
– not food, but a unique and wonderful way of saying "I
love you" with a lot of feeling and a Zen twist at the end.
I'd never seen it before!

Mary (Mark's wife) - So far, not a post-er to NDS/Harsha.
The most beautiful brown doe eyes, very much at home with
14 people she'd never met. I wanted to talk to her more!

Michael - With a face like Jack Nicholson and a great,
rock-solid, psychic strength, he continuously celebrates
everyone's existence as awareness Itself. If someone has a
belief that they are a this-thing or a that-thing, or if
they have a concept that they are somehow not really OK,
then just hang with Michael for a few seconds... Likes
pizza with hot Italian pepper.

Nora - Vast depths of multi-cultural awareness, a
bibliophile, with a prodigious memory, and a great
navigator with a map. Always had water and fruit for
everyone. Has beautiful children that we all fell in love
with from the photos. Loves Prince Edward Island.

o.h./Indra - Neither old, nor a hag! Beautiful and radiant
with a touch of Southern accent. Because she said she
really has no name that fits, and because of her effortless
way of reflecting what others feel/think/say, I would like
to call her Indra, after the jewels in Indra's Net.

Petros - Tender-hearted, open curiosity, with an
encyclopedic acquaintance with satsang in the Western world
- I wouldn't be surprised if he someday wrote a book on
that phenomenon. I'd buy it! Brought Dunkin Doughnuts for
everyone, and holy water from Ammachi. Hope he comes to NYC
some day.

Victor - Been involved with Tibetan Buddhism in the U.S.
since the 1950's. Falstaffian bearing, looks like Swami
Satchitananda, especially with the robe we made for him out
of a colorful bedsheet. Has the enthusiasm and wonder of an
energetic schoolboy.

*****

After I returned from Diamond Hill on Sunday, I got a
message that my father had passed away on Saturday night.
Actually, right about the time of the salsa dancing. He had
been very ill, often painfully, for 2 years. A few months
ago, I went to see him in Seattle for what I knew would be
the last time. It was a nice meeting, clear, un-encumbered,
loving, spacious.

My family thinks he went peacefully and purposefully when
he did. My mother, a good 50's-style wife and mother who
lived for and through her husband for over half a century,
is taking it hard. But knowing he was at peace gives her
some comfort, and she's learning a bit about how grieving
is done. I spent a lot of time with her on the phone. Our
family is atheist by tradition, but my sister (45 years
old) has a Japanese boyfriend who is introducing her to
Buddhism, and this is helping her. She in turn is helping
my mother.

The lady I am seeing and I are pretty serious, will
probably get engaged soon. Her name is Ann (Yan-Ming).
She's from Canton, above Hong Kong. A few weeks ago, she
had a beautiful Chinese agate and crystal bracelet
custom-made for my mother, with a matching necklace. She
wants to give this to my mother when she meets her. I think
we'll go in December for the holidays. This cheered my mom
up, I think she'd like to see me married! When we go, we
might gather with Michael Read and some others in Portland
or thereabouts.


After I returned from Diamond Hill on Sunday, I got a
message that my father had passed away on Saturday night.
Actually, right about the time of the salsa dancing. He had
been very ill, often painfully, for 2 years. A few months
ago, I went to see him in Seattle for what I knew would be
the last time. It was a nice meeting, clear, un-encumbered,
loving, spacious.

My family thinks he went peacefully and purposefully when
he did. My mother, a good 50's-style wife and mother who
lived for and through her husband for over half a century,
is taking it hard. But knowing he was at peace gives her
some comfort, and she's learning a bit about how grieving
is done. I spent a lot of time with her on the phone. Our
family is atheist by tradition, but my sister (45 years
old) has a Japanese boyfriend who is introducing her to
Buddhism, and this is helping her. She in turn is helping
my mother.

The lady I am seeing and I are pretty serious, will
probably get engaged soon. Her name is Ann (Yan-Ming).
She's from Canton, above Hong Kong. A few weeks ago, she
had a beautiful Chinese agate and crystal bracelet
custom-made for my mother, with a matching necklace. She
wants to give this to my mother when she meets her. I think
we'll go in December for the holidays. This cheered my mom
up, I think she'd like to see me married! When we go, we
might gather with Michael Read and some others in Portland
or thereabouts.

_________________________________________________________________________

MARK OTTER

Greg, sweet heart,

May your father be free from suffering
May your father be clear
May your father be happy
May all beings interpenetrate your father as He wills.

________________________________________________________________________

CHRISTIANA DURANCZYK

Dear Greg..

What an amazing sequence of letters we've received from you
tonight! Before you shared both the extremes of sad and
joyful news, you first offered us such lovely abstracts of
your experience with us. You are a rather remarkable man.

I sit with you in this time of familial void. That the Deep
Heart knows that even death is included in Consciousness,
is some balm for the surface heart. Yet, the surface heart
has a rhythm of its own needing respect. I light a warm
Golden candle to gently illuminate the contracting hearts.
I light a Crystal clear one for your dad's transition.

__________________________________________________________________________

Mark plunges into Truth
Like Gazelle
Standing in a new-age crystal shop
First smell of the new-lit lion incense.
Glass everywhere
Flying razor dharma

It's good
Mark needs bleeding
And the room needs the blood.

--Mark Otter

__________________________________________________________________________

DAVID HODGES

At lunch today I went to sit on a bench by the harbor. I
live in New Haven, which is home to the newly built replica
of the Amistad, the slave ship on which Cinque and his
fellow slaves revolted against their cruel masters. The
Amistad came to New Haven where the former slaves were
tried and set free.

So this completely new replica of the Amistad now sits
proudly at the wharf in New Haven, and hordes of people are
visiting it. It is a genuine fake. It is a real, sea-worthy
ship, but only a replica, a copy of that which it
represents. Yet people don't care, genuine fakes are mostly
what our whole lives are about these days, from Disney
World, to tv, to movies, to virtual experiences of all
kinds. Even when we do things like fall in love it is often
a copy of the real thing, we construct it according to
patterns we have learned about from others.

So, anyway, my visual field was full of activity - sky,
clouds, harbor, water, ships, people. My auditory field was
full of traffic noise and the breeze, and my skin also
registered the breeze, as well as the heat of the sunlight.
I was trying to get into the pure Witness state and the
thought occurred to me that consciousness consists of that
of which consciousness is aware, and then I thought, no,
that isn't right, consciousness persists as we go to sleep
(I have remained aware while entering sleep), and,
according to reports from people like Ken Wilber, persists
into deep dreamless sleep. And, after death. So
consciousness is. It shines whether or not there is
something in its field. I remember that light that appeared
in my awareness over a year ago and that is still here, and
I think it is the pure light of consciousness.

Within this view, the so-called "witness" seems somewhat
vague and shadowy and unreal. It seems like less of a
feature of the verifiable awareness field than it did last
year.

The idea that Greg gave me via his subtle-body meditation,
of the illusion of locality, is very helpful. The idea that
consciousness is local is an illusion. The idea that what I
was seeing today at the harbor was of a particular time and
place is an illusion. It is an illusion brought on by our
habitual perceptual methodology of triangulating objects in
time and space for convenience. But in "Reality" this isn't
true, and thus, non-localized Reality provides a convenient
way to surf from time/space locus to time/space locus
instantaneously.

We are bound by what we know. Our knowledge makes
everything we perceive a genuine fake.

So knowledge creates another perceptual blinder, a way to
structure that which is inherently limitless.

Meanwhile, back to consciousness. If I stay focused on the
shining independent consciousness, no matter whether it
seems to arise in my head or chest or on some minor planet
of the Sirius sector, something happens. The Ramana I-I
feeling starts to arise. Energetic stirrings are felt in
the right-hand heart center.

It is an interesting thing to note that I still don't know
why attention is so different than consciousness. For this
only works when I work the attention muscle to stay in
radiant consciousness. When that muscle relaxes, which it
is wont to do, attention wanders all over the place and I
"go to sleep" for a while. Why is that?

I think there are energy fields, or M-fields (Rupert
Sheldrake's morphogenic fields) that do that. Attention
normally runs along M-lines that have been created through
millenia of human existence. Only by applying a
vector-energy can we break free. Note that the vector
energy required is really not that much. The chains that
bind us are weak and easily broken. So the path to
self-realization consists of establishing new M-lines
sufficiently strong enough to break the attraction of the
old ones. So it isn't a matter of "spirituality" or
anything like that, it is a matter of establishing vectors
that set attention in a new heading. That's what meditation
does.

So I left my bench by the Harbor, itself a genuine fake,
and head back to work, feeling good, celebrating.

___________________________________________________________________________

Glaciers

I have seen the heart of glaciers...
Cold, ponderous, inexorable,
And with the right glasses
Seen to ebb and flow.
Tidelike, yearning to be close to the moon
Wishing to be free to play with dolphins
To rise in plumes of rainbow mist
To wet parched lips - to Love.
I too wish to be more fluid,
More quickly in my natural state
More responsive to the playful ways of water
Lighter and more full of light
More able to meet your needs
Especially your need to melt.

--Mark Otter

___________________________________________________________________________

A new link has just been added to the Spiritual Net
Directory: Now you can read on the web seven chapters of a
somewhat poetic, somewhat abbreviated version of: The
Avadhuta Gita: click:
http://home.talkcity.com/GaiaWay/infinite_freedom then
click the Avadhuta Gita link.

--uarelove

________________________________________________________________________________

Poem by a beloved friend, Jimmy Hurley, of the Tuesday in
New York satsang gathering. In tonight's satsang, the
concept of external objects was brought up, and Jimmy was
spot-on with a poem he had written a few years ago.

Love,

--Greg

NO-THING'S THERE

There's an object standing in front of you
or though it may appear.
But if you stop to contemplate
you'll find it is not there.

For as you look, the seer sees
a picture in your mind.
A concept of a thing out there
is all that you can find.

I bet you'll say, "No, here it is,"
and pick it up to show
-- but that's a feeling in your hand
that's all you really know.

"Wait a minute," I hear you say
what trickery this ruse
I can not bear to think these thoughts
my mind I'm sure to lose.

But as all things must come and go
true comfort you will find.
You're not your feelings, or your thoughts
not your body or your mind.

So don't be alarmed, I'll tell you why
there's nothing you should fear
you are the very consciousness
in which all you know appears.

--Jimmy Hurley
_______________________________________________________________________


I see friends shaking hands, saying how do you do...
They're really saying I love you, and I think to myself,
what a wonderful world...

_______________________________________________________________________________
--
We are the Nonduality Generation.
http://www.nonduality.com

With Diamond Hill gathering, not much activity on Sunday, still some
gems:

DAN  BERKOW on Teaching:


                    (...)
                  I have no cathegorical
                    assertions about what's right
                    for someone else with regard
                    to having or not having a spiritual
                    teacher - or about whether or
                    not someone should or shouldn't teach.

                  What does it mean to teach?  A human
                    being can teach other human beings,
                    yet there is an unspeakable teaching
                    that doesn't depend on human beings.
                  It "comes through"...
                  This is indescribable, and
                    there is no barrier to It -
                    it's not happening here as opposed
                    to there, it's not accessed by
                    a being who is separate from it.

                  A lot of my comments are just to
                    point to That - not "against"
                    the idea of teaching, not
                    "against" studying or learning
                    with a teacher.

                    Texts, teachers may well be
                    facilitative.  I have read, studied with teachers,
                    and I have taught.  I also regard us as able
                    to access teaching not dependent on the consensus
                    idea of physical reality.

                  How this will unfold is unknowable
                    and I wouldn't try to predict how it will work
                    for anyone. The "unknowability" itself is where
                    learning is.

                  Anything is facilitative that
                    releases self-constructed
                    barriers to "this":
                    unmediated awareness
                    (not the words or
                    concept "unmediated awareness").

                  If "perception" can be used
                    as a word for the nonseparation
                    of this living moment and
                    eternal Reality, then
                    the perceiver isn't apart
                    from the perceived, nor is
                    there any object apart from
                    perception.  The teacher
                    and the student aren't apart
                    from perception, and neither
                    is "anything else".
                  Nothing's out of place ...:-)

=========================================================

   MARCIA PAUL and DAN BERKOW:

                  DAN:

                  > Dear Marcia,
                  >
                  > Perhaps you misunderstand me.
                  > I'm not saying information
                  >   has no use in day to
                  >   day life.
                  > Far from it.
                  > If I'm driving in an unfamiliar
                  >   city, I will use a map.
                  >
                  > However, if I want to know
                  >   what's really true,
                  >   what's ultimately real,
                  >   information won't work.
                  >
                  > It is when I release
                  >   my being from information
                  >   that I stand in eternity.
                  >
                  > Eternity isn't a matter of
                  >   accumulating information.
                  >
                  > I live eternally,
                  >   yet this body that
                  >   was born and will
                  >   die, functions
                  >   in day to day
                  >   reality the same
                  >   as other bodies.
                  >
                  > When I'm hungry, I eat.
                  > If I don't know where the
                  >   grocery store is,
                  >   I ask directions.


                  Eternity is in love with the products of time.

                  Blake

                  I understand. And we don't even disagree really.
                  How could we? :-)


                  Much love,
                  Marcia

=========================================================

  MANCHINE:

                  ESCAPE


                  It comes more often it seems
                  Amidst some terrible crisis
                  The stark naked truth of the moment.

                  You look around, your world in ruins
                  And the sun is shining like nothing's happened.
                  A man walks on the street unscathed.

                  It's like time stands still
                  Silence
                  Nobody's listening to my terror

                  Now's the moment to step outside it
                  When it's 'still' like this
                  Why am I the only one who's suffering?

                  I walk around, as in a lucid dream
                  My crisis is there, but it doesn't seem real
                  Unfolding like the rest who scuttle about

                  A man walks through me
                  God, his wife's just left him
                  Honest, I didn't know!

                  I follow him
                  Want to tell him how sorry..
                  I AM

                  But, I...
                  This...
                  ....can't be.

========================================================

  DAN BERKOW  and KKT on Stopping in Time:

                  KKT -
                  These words you shared
                    from Lao Tzu yet
                    resonate - with a power
                    succinctly conveyed
                    from the 'original condition'.

                  An echo of something
                    before infinity.

                  As an arrow that
                    hits the target
                    directly, with
                    no wavering.

                  Pretty flowers fade,
                    the Tao remains.

                  Sweet talk covers,
                    concealing what is unhidden.
                  Sincere speech uncovers
                    the obvious secret.

                  In going too far,
                    our mistiming leads
                    to obscuring the truth.

                  In knowing when not
                    to go, the truth
                    is our stability.

                  Yes - stop in time
                   so restraint
                   speaks with the
                   clarity that is
                   lost by overextension.

                  (KKT, the last stanza you
                   quoted is quite far-reaching --
                   in addition to appropriately
                   commenting upon discourse
                   in this forum, it can
                   be applied to politics,
                   relationships, Taoist
                   sexual yoga, martial arts,
                   and knowing original
                   awareness.  Now,
                   *that's* a powerful statement.
                   ;-)

                  Shalom,
                  Dan

=========================================================

MELODY ANDERSON and XAN on Love:

                    Xan:
                  > ~  Thinking of this recently, I realized it is the
love
                  > in the 'other' that I love, whether it is hidden or
visible.
                  > Once I gave up qualifications for lovability, the
question
                  > of "Do I love you?" or even "Let me count the ways
that I
                  > love you." no longer came up.
                  >
                  > "Namaste" means, "I greet your soul from my soul."
                  >
                  > I love you can be the english version of Namaste.
                  >
                  > I love you, Melody, for no reason at all.
                  > Xan


                  Love without reason
                  is the only Love I know.


                  I love you, too, Xan......
                  when  I'm conscious of It,

                  or even when my thoughts obscure
                  my awareness of It.

                  Melody

JAMES BEAN:

                   Announcement: This Sunday on Spiritual Awakening!

                 Spiritual Awakening:
http://www.egroups.com/group/spiritualawakening

                  From the Wisdom Radio/Internet website:

                  Series Name:  Spiritual Awakening
                  Host:  James Bean

                  Series Synopsis:  James Bean is the host of the radio
program "Spiritual  Awakening" and a book
                  reviewer, with a broad familiarity with global
religious and spiritual traditions.



                  Program Name:  James Bean's topic is "Inner & Outer
Peace Through  Meditation," Part 1 (#34)

                  Episode Synopsis:  Join Spiritual Awakening with James
Bean as he talks  about "Inner and Outer Peace
                  Through Meditation. (Part One):

                  In this society we’re taught about developing ourselves
both physically and  mentally, yet almost no one
                  teaches us how to develop spiritually. Rajinder
Singh’s book "Inner and Outer Peace Through
                  Meditation," Element Books,  covers many aspects of
meditation: meditation and world peace,
                  meditation  and social justice, meditation and
individuals becoming peaceful in thought,  word, and deed,
                  meditation and mysticism --the near - death experience
and  OOBE’s (out-of-body-experiences),
                  meditation and self-realization -- knowing  who we
really are as a soul, and God-realization -- knowing
                  our Creator. The  forward to this book is by the Dalai
Lama.

                  Date / Time:  Sunday     July 16, 2000      9:00 AM
(all times Eastern),  repeated again:

                  Sunday     July 16, 2000      12:00 PM
                  Sunday     July 16, 2000      3:00 PM Monday     July
17, 2000      1:00 AM


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

                  Spiritual Awakening is heard on the internet via Wisdom
Radio every Sunday  morning at 9 Eastern Time
                  (6 a.m. Pacific), and at other times.

                  Got to: http://www.wisdomradio.com    then "radio,"
"live."  You'll need the  G2 or G7 Player, Real
                  Audio.

=========================================================
GENE  POOLE  and  MANCHINE:

                   Dave, you wrote:

                  >At first it seems as though it is human limitation
                  which distorts the structureless reality, that is to
say
                  fault of intellect and senses to name two, but then
                  it is realized that such is the intention.

                  >Where does it come from this image. Are there sensors,

                  intellect that is ours? Memory erased!

                  >A swirl in the collective consciousness generates the
relative
                  apparitions and THIS appears, but until the twinkling
eyed
                  glance of Grace touches upon it, collective memory
remains dormant.

                  >Is it hidden on purpose? It seems so. Is it intended
to
                  remain so? If it were not for Grace, one would have to
say "yes"
                  there too.

                  >So, here are all my words, along with all of yours to
                  touch the scintillating fabric in the intent to jog
                  the collective memory.

                  >It's true, nothing here is the answer, and in the end
the questions
                  and inquiries are of little significance.

                  >Our models and words fall in ruins as the collective
memory
                  begins to remember the truth, it's passed this way
before until
                  achieving its blessed escape.

                  Gene Replies:

                  When one points to what is not seen,
                  One points to space, emptiness,
                  To the unknown.

                  When one points to what is not seen,
                  Others who follow the pointer
                  Are hinted.

                  What then is seen in the unknown,
                  In space, in emptiness,
                  Are imaginings.

                  It is easy to hint,
                  But difficult to illuminate,
                  Harder yet to banish imaginings.

                  Without imaginings,
                  What is not seen becomes visible,
                  Unknown becomes known.

                  Space is unseen,
                  Emptiness is unseen,
                  When filled with imaginings.

                  Awareness, like space,
                  Contains all things,
                  Yet is itself invisible.

                  Pointing to invisible awareness
                  Materializes imaginings
                  Populating emptiness,

                  To depopulate emptiness
                  Is to materialize awareness
                  As space itself.

                  When one points to what is not seen,
                  One who sees what is not there,
                  Sees what is there,

                  Seeing emptiness,
                  Is seeing awareness
                  Seeing naked space,

                  Naked space is emptiness,
                  Emptiness of imaginings,
                  Fullness of awareness.


                  Naked and aware...

                  ==Gene Poole==



                  Emptiness, the unknown is what's left
                  after throwing away all that you know.

                  Thank you
                  David

=========================================================
  More GENE POOLE

                  Awareness

                  Part I

                  Thrilling awareness
                  No obstacles to collide
                  The ultimate ride,

                  By mastery of imagination
                  I place the objects
                  If any,

                  Or by withdrawal
                  Of imagination
                  I rest,

                  Either way is best.


                  Part II


                  There is no rest
                  For those who imagine
                  That anything is other than imagined,

                  Standards of proof,
                  Criteria of reality,
                  Thus are made judges,

                  People are only as real
                  As they assume their imaginings to be,
                  Thus they are mortal,

                  Empty space is the portal.


                  Part III


                  Imagine a door
                  And then open it,
                  If you have the imagined key,

                  Pass from pain to pleasure,
                  As you imagine it to be,
                  Success by obeying imagined criteria,

                  Criteria imagined
                  And validated by consensus,
                  Our imaginary masters,

                  Imagine yourself to be the master.


                  Part IV


                  Master of imagination,
                  Imagine that you imagine
                  Everything,

                  Set one imagining
                  Against another imagining,
                  Or vanish all imaginings,

                  Or imagine all imaginings
                  To be an image of interimaginary harmony,
                  Thus to let peace reign in your imagination,

                  Empty field of awareness, aware of itself


                  Part V


                  Empty field of awareness,
                  One vast space,
                  Playground of space-Beings

                  Imagined by you,
                  Made from nothing,
                  To nothing they return,

                  Yet you are untouched,
                  Invisible awareness,
                  You call yourself "self"

                  I know you as me.

=========================================================

MELODY ANDERSON shares:

                  Hi Mark and everyone,

                  So much has happened these last few days during my
visit
                  to my little brother in Arizona.

                  Yesterday my housesitter's mom called to tell me my dog

                  Wally was dead.   Her son was watching TV at our house,

                  noticed Wally was not there.....looked for him and
found him
                  dead in the kitchen.

                  I'm shocked to see the depth of pain and sorrow flowing

                  thru me.   The truth is, I don't remember experiencing
this
                  depth of sorrow even when my mother passed.

                  When my mother passed....I was still so emotionally
defended,
                  I don't think I cried more than 10 minutes.

                  Last night I cried for hours......for Wally, for me,
and especially
                  for my son Joseph who just lost his best friend.  And
yet the
                  sorrow is bittersweet.  Even though there is such a
sense of
                  heaviness on my heart.....even though the tears don't
stop
                  even now....there is also a sense of beauty, a sense of
this
                  sorrow being exquisite.....a sense of celebration for
our
                  having those precious years with Wally, and for the
unwavering
                  love he offered us.

                  Yesterday I wailed.  Today it has changed to warm tears

                  falling drop by drop onto my cheeks.  Today the feeling
of
                  love is wrapped around that sorrow.  Today I feel
completely,
                  wholely alive.  And I'm grateful.   Today is a feeling
of dancing
                  in the circle of life....in the joys and the
sorrows....and I'm
                  reminded of the saying (it may be Buddhist):  of the
challenge
                  to 'joyfully participate in the sorrows of life'.

                  And in that joyful participation I honor the challenges

                  you're facing these days, Mark.

                  My little brother just yesterday received his 9 month
                  sobriety coin from AA.   And yesterday, just before
                  receiving the news of Wally's death, my sister in law
                  admitted for the first time ever....to herself, to my
                  brother, to me....that she is angry.   She admitted
                  that she's been choking back years and years of
                  anger at my brother for all the destruction his
drinking
                  has wrought.....and anger at herself....and her father
                  who was also an alchoholic,

                  and she's scared to death.  Scared that now that she
                  has admitted her anger, that it will be unleashed.

                  I have a sense of what your challenges are, Mark, and
                  I only say that you are not alone.   I would even go
                  so far to say that there are MANY on this list that
know
                  first hand what your challenges are.

                  You're not alone.  And yet you are.

                  We connect at first to know we are not alone, and to
                  somehow gain courage to face our own aloneness.

                  And this somehow, paradoxically, is perfect.

                  I love you.

                  Melody


=========================================================

XAN  and  MELODY:


                  >Melody:
                  What do you mean when you say "I love you"
                  to Mark?

                  What is it you love about him?

                  What is it exactly that is UNIQUELY 'Mark'.....which
                  is NOT 'fake' as he claims.....that you love?  Do you
                  mind specifying?

                  Do you love me as much as Mark, or in the same
                  way?

                  If so, then what does 'I love you' mean?
                  >

                 Xan:
                  ~  Thinking of this recently, I realized it is the love

                  in the 'other' that I love, whether it is hidden or
visible.
                  Once I gave up qualifications for lovability, the
question
                  of "Do I love you?" or even "Let me count the ways that
I
                  love you." no longer came up.

                  "Namaste" means, "I greet your soul from my soul."

                  I love you can be the english version of Namaste.

                  I love you, Melody, for no reason at all.
                  Xan

=========================================================

DAN BERKOW and KKT:

                   (...)
                  As for this overflowing cup,
                    to where do you think it is
                    flowing?  Only to its Source.

                  Have I stopped in time?
                  Only if I have never begun.

                  If I've begun, then
                    let me not cease
                    until I know the
                    end to be in the
                    beginning.

                  "The road of excess leads
                    to the palace of
                    wisdom."

                  "I will give you water to
                    drink that flows
                    eternally."

                  Love,
                  Dan


                  >KKT:  Sincere words are not sweet,
                  >         Sweet words are not sincere.
                  >                         Tao Teh Ching

                  >Another translation:
                  >
                  >         True words are not beautiful,
                  >         Beautiful words are not true.
                  >
                  >Hello, Dan-ji ;-))
                  >
                  >Another one:
                  >
                  >         As for holding to fullness,
                  >         Far better were it to stop in time!
                  >                          Tao Teh Ching
                  >
                  >Another translation:
                  >
                  >        To hold and fill to overflowing,
                  >        Is not as good as to stop in time.
                  >
                  >Cheers :-)
                  >
                  >KKT

CHRISTIANA: Judi, thanks to the generosity of your many
friends here, I have funds ready for you and possibly
Merianne to fly to see your mom whenever you need to do so.
Please send me your address and I'll mail out a check.

JUDI: Thank you everyone. God is indeed gracious! I thank
you from the bottom of my heart. And I know my mother does
too. Very beautiful, beautiful beyond words. Thank you,
Love, Judi

CHRISTIANA: For anyone who may have lost the link to
contribute, it's:
https://secure.paypal.com/refer/pal=cpd%40well.com

_______________________________________________________________________________

Hi Greg,

My heart is with you in the death of your father. How odd
and apt to know that it was about the time of the salsa
dancing. I still remember the rapt, concentrated, but free
look on your face as you drummed to the music. There was
something wild and free in the air that night, what with
the rain and the bullfrogs and all. My father died in 1994
also after a long illness. I have felt very close to him
since then, closer than when he was alive. He has appeared
in several highly-real dreams in which there was a great
deal of love expressed.

Since his death my mother has flowered. Six months after he
died she got herself a Mac and taught herself how to do
email. She also started writing poetry. So you never know.

Love,

David

*****


David,

Thanks for your kind words. The salsa evening was magic -
remember earlier how it started to rain when Indra started
whirling? (I'm trying to push this name for oh).

With my father, we actually had a kind and loving moment
when I last saw him. And no emotional submerged stuff or
baggage on either side. Actually, he was not totally lucid
-- he was mumbling a few words about a cute nurse he'd seen
earlier that day....

Nice to hear of your mom's flowering. My grandmother had
the same experience after my grandfather died. She went on
a world tour with her daughter/my aunt. That's right, you
never know!

Love,

--Greg
_______________________________________________________________________

INDRA/AMRITA/OH

Hello all dears:

old bones' impression of gathering:

oh....ohhhh....OHHHHHHHH!!

and i ain't fakin' it! - that's for sure.
,^))

------------------------

i am still speechless.....

every dern word wiped right out....

what a wonder!!

still at Glo's...heading to PA tomorrow...tank and pockets
and heart
full....gracias precious ones...

as i read each post now, the face arises and the words are
fuller,
sweeter...richer...i bet you know what i mean.

love to all,
gratitude burstin'
oh
Indra? couldn't think of more beautiful jewels to reflect!
Thanks,
Greg very dear...and there would start the litany...
Gratiture' Adore' allofe' youe'


"our song" words someone asked for:

Like the morning sun,
that has risen over the horizon,
the Dawn of Divine Awareness
has risen in my heart.


And it will never set.

_______________________________________________________________________________

PAYING FOR MY ARISING: MELODY ANDERSON, MARCIA PAUL, MICHAEL
READ

These last days I've been immersed in witnessing and
experiencing the struggles and challenges of facing the
human condition.

I watched my sister in law's heart crack open as she began
to share for the first time ever from an 'open space', and
was rather shocked to see how many ways the 'world' began
to rush in and tell her NO......tell her she was wrong
someway to feel what she felt and to say what was on her
mind. I watched the world bombard her from every
angle....demanding she put her mask back on....and go on as
if she hadn't a care or a need in the world.

I listened to her share about her feelings of guilt and
fear ....about stepping away from her Catholic Church

and I shared her tears of joy when she sat quietly for the
first time ever to commune with God...without an
intermediary.

During this time I was also reading Osho's book, "Glimpses
of a Golden Childhood'.....reading how Osho was never ever
said 'No' to as a child, never once forced to wear a mask
....never once restricted in his thoughts, feelings and
actions.

Two lives could not be more different.....two vastly
different childhoods.

My sister in law cried at one point, "I haven't a clue who
I am beyond what what is expected of me", and I know that
hers is a crisis of the soul shared by many. I remember
saying those very words myself in my therapist's office.
And what a shock it is to hear yourself say so. It's as if
my life began anew the day I first uttered those
words.....as I suspect it has for her as well.

Despite society's attempts, despite the demands of the
family, one can't ever put the Genie back into the
bottle....not completely.

A seed has taken root.....a ray of light has entered the
darkness.

I'm back home now again....a much quieter and emptier home
than the one I left. How easy it would be to instantly fill
this quiet space....to make it busy and noisy and demanding
again.

May the surface heart remain empty so the deeper heart can
be heard.

*****

I'm not sure why people dread and fear and avoid sorrow.
Those moments are some of the most truly ALIVE moments I
have known....moments that exhaust the self so completely
that Love is easily and naturally touched afterwards.

It 's very much like doing one of Osho's active
meditations. It's cleansing, and readies one for those
moments of silence and stillness which always follow.

*****

I wonder what exactly G meant when he said 'paying for ones
arising'?

Is payment ever enough? Seems likely that when one starts
this 'payment plan' the interest compounds so quickly, one
never ever can get 'paid in full'. When our parents die,
for example, the 'paper' probably just gets assigned to
someone else? (I don't know, Marcia. I'm just guessing
here?)

It seems to me another way is to simply give everything
away.... declare a kind of personal bankruptcy....and then
start again with a 'clean slate'.

But that's so immoral, isn't it? Such a 'stigma' attached
to those who fail to execute their responsibilities.

Osho had a vision of a new Man.....a vision of child
rearing that would be similar to his own experience.....one
in which children 'owed' their parents and society nothing
[my characterization, not his]. In Osho's vision, there
would be no 'paying for one's arising'. Sounds a bit like
Eden, doesn't it?

Could you imagine never telling your children 'No'....never
saying 'You can't do this', 'That's too dangerous', 'it's
not good for you', 'Don't say that!', or 'what would the
neighbors say?'

Could you imagine allowing children to say whatever was on
their mind to a visiting priest.....calling a spade a spade

.....allowing a child to take any kind of physical risks
(with only a 'body guard' to be there to 'save his butt'
after making that choice)?

It reminds me of what Malidoma Patrice Some describes of
life in an African Dagaro village. Initiation into manhood
was a life threatening risk. Some boys never survived the
initiation. Some died or went crazy.

Can you imagine our society ALLOWING children to take such
risks? And yet the aboriginal communities, including our
native American ones, insist that the lack of such
initiations in the 'modern' world is what makes us a
culture of 'adult children'.

We initiate our youth thru trauma, yes.....but it's not the
same as being initiated, in consciousness, by one who has
been Initiated him/herself. Instead, 'children' initiate
children into gangs, sororities, even country clubs and
churches- all only imitating or substituting for Initiated
life.

*****

MARCIA PAUL

In a way this kind of opens up a new/old subject and that
is; rites of initiation. And where are the teachers? There
is much debate about the value of teachers but I wonder if
there are any left. The public schools seem to me to be
really bad. I remember reading Summerfield and thinking
that was what a real education would be like. My kids do
well in school but there is so much emphasis on the grade
and performance. They and the schools seem to have lost
sight of what a real education would be. And I am only
asking questions. I don't have the answers.

It seems to me that as far as paying for one's arising,
Gurdjieff talked about caring for one's parents. He would
admonish people to take their parents into their homes and
care for them until their death. It would seem to me that
affording one's parents the most comfortable death and not
to be alone at that time and to die with respect would
adequately pay the debt for one's birth.

*****

MICHAEL READ

Philosophy, mythology, cosmology - not much difference,
really. The Christ story has a certain and great beauty. (
insert joke here) But god doesn't have a penis - or a
vagina. ;-)

Your very conciousness is same conciousness that was in
Jesus and Buddha and Mohammed - and everybody else past,
present and future and on this planet and on every other
planet and in this dimension and every other dimension.

Yahoo!

So, enjoy 'your' story, but dwell in the truth of the Self.

HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!

Peace - Everlasting Joy - Michael


--
We are the Nonduality Generation.
http://www.nonduality.com

I died by a pond
After the heron
(electric blue sizzle)
And after tethered ride
Through the M band
(look of surprise tracking along for awhile)
Seemed to snap back on elastic
I don't know where i went
Or how I returned.
I want to die by a pond.

(that's why I chose that spot, Beloved)

--Mark Otter

___________________________________________________________________

CHRISTIANA DURANCZYK

Last night I asked Greg (and all of you) if you'd help me
see how human death is perceived from this understanding,
spoken of here, as nondual. I suppose that asking to
explore what death means from a nondual perspective,
appears as a bit of an oxymoron.

So, I'm entering an inquiry here, with the awareness that
this is tricky territory in terms of arriving at agreement
of perspectives, as well as it being fundamentally a mute
question, from the perspective that self is a bounded
construct, which as David so clearly articulated, does not
appear when the vector (nagual) shifts.

As I more and more find spans of space without objects, I
recognize the proximity of this collapse of *thingness* of
self. When I underwent the profound shock of sitting with
my mother's dead body, it was quite evident that no one was
there. What is not as evident for me is the understanding
that no one is here when our bodies are alive. If no one is
here, then no one dies. Does this negate concepts of karma
or dimentional lifetimes?

So, while most traditions have some teachings about the
transition of soul beyond the body, I don't know what an
Advaitan understanding of this is. Is death merely a return
of form to the Void? Is there any essential soulness of
being which remains within Consciousness?

I sense these are naive questions, yet they move in me to
ask them.

*****

DAVID HODGES

I don't know what the Advaitan line is, but I did happen to
be reading the following in Ramesh Balsekar's "Pointers
from Nisargadatta Maharaj":

"When the body 'dies', consciousness disappears like a
flame when the fuel is exhausted. Indeed, consciousness is
duration, without which an object would not last long
enough to be manifested and perceived. What then, are
'you'? So long as the body exists, you are this conscious
presence within, the perceiving principle; when the body
dies, 'you' are the Absolute Awareness into which the
temporary consciousness merges. And there is no longer the
sense of being present. Remember, therefore, that no 'one'
is born and no 'one' dies, because all the forms (that
appear, remain for the duration, and then disappear) are
your expression, your mirrorization."

*****

DAN BERKOW

Christiana, These strike me as useful questions to address,
not "naive" in the sense of irrelevant or superficial. Your
questions move me to look with you at what happens when we
formulate theory. I share what has proved useful for me -
if it's not useful for you, disregard ;-)

It is not that theory is bad or wrong, it definitely has
its uses. It's just that there is always a limitation
involved when we formulate theory. Being aware of how this
limitation is involved in theorizing, we then use theory
with awareness (which is useful in day to day situations
that involve thought, memory, language, communication).

In the example you provide, we might involve ourselves in
formulating at theory "there is no one here," and then try
to see what this means in terms of dying. This theory might
have some utility, but it might also serve as a limitation,
particularly if we take this theory about reality to be
"true".

Taking our theory to be "truth", we then naturally want to
continue it and build upon it, perhaps by seeing what the
"true concept" that "there is no one here while the body is
alive," means in terms of karma and multidimensional
lifetimes.

Next, we elaborate our theory by seeing death might mean
return to the Void.

All of this is fine, except that there is limiation
involved to whatever extent there is identification with
the theory-maintaining and theory-building process itself.
There is also limitation if we take our speculation about
reality as a means to understand what reality *is*.

It seems potentially useful here to assess the extent of
our identification with thought, even in the process of
pondering presumably useful constructs. Perhaps there is a
possibility here, not just to investigate theory, but in
this present moment, to dis-identify from thought
constructs as believed-in mediators for reality-experience.
If we do this, thought opens to its own "emptiness", which
as seen here, is a very useful awareness.

"what is" has never, will never, be fit into a theory, nor
will a theory ever substitute for immediate awareness *as*
"what is" (beyond the word/construct "immediate
awareness").

If seen clearly, one will find that words, although they
have a structured way for being presented coherently or
noncoherently, actually *refer to nothing*. The self or
"me", believed-to-be using thought to understand reality,
disappears the instant there is disidentification with
thought, seeing the essential illusion involved in thought,
memory, and the perception linked with thought and memory.

My "self" or "me" can be seen as an imaginary reference
point for the continuation of the thought process as a
developing structure over time. No investment in
continuation no self to affirm or negate. If there is an
agenda of continuation, an investment in continuity of
thought, of the self-process, it doesn't matter whether you
are affirming that there is no self, affirming that there
is a self, or negating a self. The energy being "attached"
to the continuation of that thought process is thus useful
to notice, regardless of the presumed "insight" expressed
in the content of the thought process.

The reality "out there" to which the theory/thought process
is to be applied (be it death, life, a building, a tree)
turns out not to be "out there" - as "out there" turns out
to be a thought construction. I can realize this and still
use thought, still use theory, but I realize that the
question of death isn't so much something to which the
theory will be applied, as it is involved in questioning
that very process (attempt to continue moment to moment)
itself. It is in questioning that "tendency to want to
continue" inherent in the thought-process itself that I
notice the Reality that *is* as discontinuity (as seen from
thought's perspective - in and of itself, it is neither
continuing nor discontinuous).

The important thing, as seen here, is not the theory that
"no one is here while the body is living", but the actual
inquiry into "who am I that believe myself to be
formulating a theory about whether or not someone is here
while the body is living?".

If there is mental activity involved in "carrying forward"
the construct of "no one being here while the body is
alive" ... the very mental activity is the attempt to
maintain a sense of continuity for "me" - it doesn't matter
that this sense of continuity occurs through maintaining a
theory that "no one is here".

This is similar to the theory that "All is One" which, if
brought forward as a believed-to-be-true construct, becomes
continuity for the mental activity of "bringing forward" a
construct that is applied to experiencing.

The reality of "nothing to bring" and "no one to bring it"
is the reality of dying as living. It isn't a theoretical
proposition. The Void is exactly "this", not something to
be encountered at a future piont in time, not a subject for
speculation. One could say we return to the Void, but that
raises the question of "who left the Void", when and how
could such leaving take place?

The "body" is actually a construct, a theory, and the death
of the body is the loss of the basis for continuing that
construct built around experiences such as "feeling,"
"breathing," and "eating". Certainly the "body" resists its
demise, and "we" attach to that resistance, and attach to
others' bodies in the process. Yet, all of this activity is
conceptual, not Reality.

The fact that we address these constructs in day to day
life and perception tends to hide from us the fact that
they are, indeed, constructs, and not Reality (which *is*
beyond the constructs "life" and "death," "is" and "is
not").

*****

ED ARRONS

No theory, but some thoughts...first being that sometimes
there is no "me" in the body, but often there is, and that
seems to be the case with others. This begs the question:
how is this so and what does this have to do with dying?

The next thought arising in awareness is: it all has to do
with thoughts rising in awareness, and with the intensity
of those thoughts. When the thoughts are intense,
identification with them and their content seems to
follow...along with the strong *feeling* of "me" in the
body as the thinker of those thoughts. When the thoughts
are passing peacefully through awareness like clouds in the
sky, identification is with *awareness* and the "me" seems
not to be in the body.

When "me" is in the body, karma might apply, when not, when
there is inner peace, this could indicate the lifting of
karma. Most "mes" die while in the body and then exit to
wherever. The enlightened are already there.

So be at peace and live as if already dead. Or, enjoy the
passage of time....timelessly, eh Judi? :-) Ed.

______________________________________________________________________________

MELODY ANDERSON

"What's your vision, dear?"

This dear one doesn't have one.

I don't know.....perhaps Osho was so clear he could see
into tomorrow.

Or maybe he was just appreciating how it was for
him.....and wanting everyone to have a taste of such a
childhood.

At this point, for me to offer a 'vision' would be for me
to say I want things to be different tomorrow than they are
today. And I don't. I really don't. I want to simply remain
witness to [without preference] whatever arises....trusting
the rhythm of life.

And some days that's easier than others.

Can you move forward from where Osho left off?

I've been thinking about Osho allot these days. I've come
to see that what I appreciate in him so much is his ability
to truly 'be the flute for God to sing thru'.

He does ( like other masters I have read) teach what he
knows from his own experience, yes.....he does some
'preaching' from his own life experience, just like others
do....

But Osho endears me in a way that only Jesus has before
him:

To these eyes he is a true bodhisattva in that he could
truly 'become a flute' to the masses.

What I find so awesome about Osho is that the words that
came thru him were spoken to those who are still trying to
simply 'survive' their own lives.... for whom 'peace' is
still a pie in the sky dream... and yet in whom there is a
stirring...a craving.... for communion.

It is easy for one with the childhood of an Osho to become
enlightened. It is clear that for him, there was never a
question of 'would he' become enlightened. It was not a
challenge for him. There was no 'dark night'.

He simply chose the life that made his realization as easy
and natural as learning to tie ones shoes.

And what he offered the world did not come from his life
'experience'. It did not come from his challenges with
suffering, with psychological torment, and such.

And yet he speaks to those who have those very challenges,

to those who have felt obliterated and twisted by life.

What he offered was simply what had not yet been given (at
least not as he offered it).

He was not a priest preaching to a priesthood.

He was a vessel thru which Existence could sing a song to
the masses....to a community who craved communion, but
doesn't necessarily realize it yet.

He came for no other reason than to assist others thru
their 'dark nights'.

To me that's epitomizes a 'bodhisattva.

When I first began reading about Osho's personal story, I
was a little uncomfortable. I was uncomfortable in that it
became even clearer that Osho was like the rest of us in
that he has quirks, a very definite and strong personality,
and such.....in short he is human in every sense of the
way. And yet he's not. Never had been. And he shows us
....no matter where we find ourselves... no matter what
'walk' we take - how we can begin to see that *we're* not,
either. And never have been.

__________________________________________________________________________

DAVE/MANCHINE

Recently, I've been translating some of the insights that
go on here for presentation to "everyday people" with an
interest in enlightenment.

I find a real nice piece here which seems just right, and I
start to put it down on paper. "Nope, can't say that", I
say, "they don't know what that means yet, I have to expand
that area". In expanding that area, I find I must expand
areas within those areas. Finally, it gets put onto paper.
Re-reading it, the poetry is gone, the subtlness is lost...
but to the reader, a completely new world is opened,
something he's never imagined. :-o

I mention this here, because in going through the process
of translation, I realized how tangled up, how deeply
buried we are as humans in this illusion. A simple one
paragraph comment required 20 more just to scratch the
surface. All detail and paraphanalia, making transitions
that show that time is an illusion and that truth is
realtive etc. etc. and finally just to make his imagination
soar.

Isn't that the root of the problem? Why make his
imagination soar? We've come to learn that all of this that
we think we see is imagination. But until one starts
imagining, one's never going to see that that is what one's
doing.

So there's the other problem. One can get far enough as to
imagine that LOTS of this is imagination. Ah, what relief,
we can put some things in the imagination box, but we have
our responsibilities!

We were born into a physical world, original sin if you
will. As simple as that. Consciousness became filled up
with stuff! What else could we do but try to understand it?

What I translated yesterday... What have we had more of,
empty consciousness or full consciousness? That's a toughy.
Seems like there's been more "full consciousness", but if
you think about it, there's has to have been more "empty
consciousness". WRONG. Empty consciousness, like deep
sleep, passes instantly, Only the full consciousness has
time. As consciousness expands, it becomes more evident
that time is an illusion; it is always NOW. So in fact
empty consciousness and full consiousness coexist. Without
time, there is no locality, no separatedness, just being.

So how do you deal with your responsibilities? First
believe!!!!! If you don't understand, believe in those that
do. Apply the principles to everything. Trust that the pain
is the touch of Self directed at you, as something to work
with. Don't fall prey to it, help those that are falling
prey to it. If you are a pile of flesh on the ground, how
can you help. That simple act of being a conductor will
change everything. Then you will see what it is! Then you
will see that your sacrifice is the sacrifice of Self
itself, then you will know the meaning of the word Love.

____________________________________________________________________

MICHAEL READ

Marcia asked: "Can you honestly say that you are living in
the Self?"

Yes! And so are you! All IS THE SELF.

So, pardon 'me' if I shout out with joy! Hail hail the the
Gang's all One!

Marcia, I didn't 'do' it. It is 'doing' the illusion of
'me' and of 'you'.

The when and the how of realization Turns on Grace And
dropping of expectations!

Tis only the Self Being 'stubborn' Clinging to the
illusion.

Why? Because, that's why! :-))

Yahoo! And Yippee!

So, enjoy 'your' story, but dwell in the truth of the Self.

HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!

Peace - Everlasting Joy - Michael

________________________________________________________________________________

JODY ON THE RETREAT

A bushel of One.

Seeing these photos makes me wish I was there. What a nice
looking group. I feel I know you all much better now,
despite my recent stepping out of the discussion.

I hope you'll do it again next year, when I can haul my ass
out there and be with you.

Pranams to the organizers of this affair.

*****

GLORIA LEE -- MORE RETREAT PHOTOS

Be sure to see the Kuan Yin drawing..had no flash on this
camera.

http://www.egroups.com/files/NondualitySalon/Retreat+Photos/

______________________________________________________________________________

GLORIA LEE

We are experiencing a very rare phenomenon in July 2000.
During this one month we will have three Eclipses. There
will be two Solar Eclipses, one on July 1st and one on July
30th, and a Lunar Eclipse on July 16th. The last time three
Eclipses happened in one month was in December 1694, and
that unusual Celestial occurrence will not happen again
until December 2848, according to Blum's Almanac. That is
pretty awesome, isn't it?

______________________________________________________________________________

ALLEN CRIDER (forwarded from USENET by Bruce Morgen)

Sure, you can believe in polka-dotted zebras. And you can
believe they are that way, as long as you aren't forced to
interact with their reality. If you are forced to inertact
with their reality, will you hide behind your belief, or
will you accept your new experience of striped zebras?

Mystical experiences work best when they cause us to
examine our perceptions, but when they cause us to
construct belief systems based on the experiences, then is
when we have built a separation from the divine.

Say you have experienced a polka-dotted zebra while in a
meditation or perhaps in a dream. The zebra tells you that
he is going to be the new messiah. You somehow find that
others have experienced the same thing, and have formed an
(tax-free) organization to promote the manifestation of the
zebra on this planet as the new messiah.

Look at the situation now: All you really experienced was a
mystical interlude involving a zebra. What you have thown
into the experience is a separation from that zebra --
you're expecting to have additional zebra experiences as
the zebra manifests and becomes the messiah. You've
constructed a belief system around that one little zebra
experience, and as a result are now not whole, and can not
be whole, until the universe somehow manifests the zebra in
accordance with your belief system.

But zebra or no zebra, messiah or no messiah, you and this
entire planet is already whole. It is only your zebra
expectations that have separated you from perception of
that whole.

--
We are the Nonduality Generation.
http://www.nonduality.com

CHRISTIANA

Thank you *all* for such rich movement around my question.

Thank you Jan for responding. It is good to hear your voice here again.
Your words are sobering and ring clearly.

I don't know, however, that I align with your assessment that
"unconditional love" leads to enmeshment and the tolerance of
conditions. Perhaps we speak from a different understanding of "UL". UL,
as I know it, engenders no movement. It shows up as awareness and flow.
By it's very nature, there is no someone being moved to tolerate. It
shows up when the vessel is empty.  I know it as unmediated fire.

Thank you Dan for standing with me and for your seamless capacity for
deconstruction. You and Gene both do this so well. The layers were
peeled back.

I have printed out all of the responses. I am sitting with their flavor.

Love,
Christiana
_____________________________________________________

JERRY

Hi Christiana,

As far off the nondual track as the statement appears, there
are many nondual perspectives. It doesn't matter what
perspective is taken as long as it becomes a meditation. It
doesn't matter what the perspective is on either, whether
it's death or cheez whiz. It doesn't matter whether it's
constructed, deconstructed, reconstructed, or unconstructed.
How can anyone tell YOU anything? However, it's fun to hear
everyone, to read great writings posted here, to hear
myself, to fill up the web pages and plan meetings. Just be
with me.

Love,
Jerry
_______________________________________________

DAN

Wouldn't it be nice if reality
   were consistent?

Wouldn't it be consistent if reality
   were nice?

Reality doesn't fit our fantasies
   nor our expectations.

It's not static, nor does it change.

Reality is never the same,
   but it never changes.

A zebra is not a zebra.
Thus, it is a zebra.

-- Dan

______________________________________________________

MANCHINE (Dave)

Hello Melody,

How apt was your drawing of "Success" yesterday. It's
been on my mind since then.

I know that I'm in a trough right now, and perhaps
that has been affecting others. I've been ready for
a personal retreat for awhile, and, being in the trough
it's a little harder to recognize that fact.

On the lighter side, the beauty of success, is that
truthfully, it can be seen that the troughs have their
value as well. And, there's always the certainty
of another peak.

Juan Matus says, "A warrior must use the first of a series
of events as an outline for that which is to come".

Of course, recognizing the "first" of a series is most difficult.

Knowing that these cycles exist, is useful in such an endeavor,
and in his case, being impecable, in detection and response.

Impecability, is a very difficult goal. If I had it, I would have
detected my trough... or perhaps more honestly said, reacted
to my trough sooner.

That it is difficult however is no excuse not to attempt to reach
such a goal. Impecability also brings freedom.

Impecability, complete independance from personal motivations,
complete dedication to intent (of THIS) and complete openness
to the spirit.

It is a daily honor.

I know you work hard, you have inspired me in your capacity
to readdress difficult situations. And I know you have a very
willing heart.

What am I saying? Thanks for being here and
thanks for Osho's Zen Tarot.

Love,
Dave
____________________________________________________________

Thank you, Dave.

I haven't heard the word impecability spoken of so
impecably since I used to visit a dear friend of mine in
Cloudcroft, New Mexico.   I loved the way you used
it.

What occurs to me to ask you is:   would you be in
such a trough if you weren't comparing 'where you are'
with where 'others' are..... or maybe where you'd
*rather* be?


For me, too, it is difficult to recognize....not that I'm in
a valley as compared to a peak....that's EASY to see.

What's hard to recognize, or admit to myself, is my
refusing to delight in where I find myself standing.

Last week, embracing my sorrow so completely, I
tasted the wonder and awesomeness of Life.  In
doing so, the peak and the valley became one.

May you taste that as well today.

Melody
__________________________________________________

==GENE POOLE==

NDS

Hi All,

Try it this way:

'God' issues us a 'blank check'. We can fill in the amount and cash it.

Experience fills in the amount, and it is called 'identity', or what
some refer to as 'ego'. I prefer the term 'identity'.

We try to 'cash' our check to 'get' the rewards for having 'learned
by experience'; in other words, we assume that our experiences are
like 'money in the bank', which we can spend for forwarding of our
mission of becoming whole and complete. This takes various  versions,
such as 'healing', 'enlightenment', 'realization', etc.

We assume that there is something to learn, which has 'redeeming' or
'transformative' value; we fill in our check to that amount, and then
try to capitalize upon it or 'cash' it.

Now, there is an unseen trick in this, however. 'God' gives us the
blank check, but also slyly provides everything for free, AKA
'Grace'. What we have, then, is a situation in which a person has
access to all the 'money' (experience => identity-structure) they
want, but in reality, money is never needed, because nothing really
costs anything. It is all freely available at 'Grace-Mart' (which is
wherever you are).

Seeing this seeming paradox, a person is free to erase the asking
amount on the check, to return it to the blank condition, and live by
Grace alone.

We have here another tie-in to Freud's second-stage ('anal')
retention-related period of development, which is known to be
centered in 'control' of self and other. Persons 'fixated' or stuck
in this phase, are renowned 'control-freaks', who use their own
conditioned (retained) self as the metric or standard by which all
others are to be compared and judged. It is no surprise, then, that
the retentive tendency works on the basis of equating money  with
identity-pieces, accumulated and retained (saved) for 'making a
better life'.

An 'identity-crisis' is similar to unexpected bankruptcy; a person
sees themself to be without the essential underpinnings of existence,
money/identity. This is a crisis only because of the unexamined
assumption that money/identity is actually needed. In this case, a
person will often feel hopeless, having 'lost' the precious check and
the amount of experience it represents, all the while unconscious of
the free abundance all around. It is the expectation that something
is 'attainable' (income), and that it can be used to 'get' a benefit,
which makes the building of an acceptable personality, the equivalent
of the 'Pearl of Great Price'. Perhaps you have read that classical
story.

So, the blank check, the availability of experience, the assumption
that something can be gained, the careful or haphazard construction
of an identity-structure, the fanatical retention of this precious
article, and the expectation that all of that can lead to  better
place, to the removal of suffering, is all occurring in an
environment which features FREE goodies, as much as are needed.

It seems to me that it takes a while to see that bankruptcy of
identity is actually an opportunity to go on 'welfare'; to become a
'worthless welfare bum', living for free, with no worries of having
to hoard experience (AKA 'learning'), identity Being freely provided
by Self.


==Gene Poole==
_____________________________________________________________

DAN

To say this is unknown
   and unknowable is
     saying too much.

It's not even unknowable,
   that how unknowable it is.

Captivated by the unknowability,
   there is nothing left.
I've given myself over,
   so there's no giving
     and no over.

Remarkable, amazing, unbelievable,
   these are just words.

Ah, words - resonating, helpless,
   infinite wheels spinning.

___________________________________


>Ultimately, how can any experience be false?  How can any statement be true?
>
>--Greg


Even the experience of having taken the rope for a snake can't be said to be
false
:); it is probably one of the most insightful experiences one can have and of
course,
this statement is only a statement :)

Jan
___________________________________________________________

MELODY

If we defined irritation (in this context) as having an inflamed or
resistant reaction to what is being said....

it is the resistance ...or the rejection... of what is being said
that creates the 'effect' (which has in this case been labeled
as 'harm').... and not the words themselves.

Often, as you indicate yourself, the mind participates
in a deception.  The mind can say "I accept", even
when subconsciously it is rejecting or resisting.

You used in your response below  the phrase
"knee jerk reaction" to describe a subconscious
reaction.  And in my experience, that's right on.

I have found that by listening to the body (mine or others)
one can discover when and if the mind is being duplicitous.

It's a good 'key' to unlocking and exposing
our denials.

Another way  I can tell if it's 'projection' is if I can't
seem to let it go, or drop it.

If I want to either hold onto it....to magnify it;

OR, if i want to throw it away....obliterate it;

either way, I know it's my mirror.

On the other hand,

I used to live next door to a couple who fought allot.
About once a week I would hear screaming and yelling
and occasionally even hear some object crash up against a
wall.

To suggest that everytime I heard one of these
fights and thought, "sounds like they're at it again"

I was reflecting my own inner anger -

is just not so.

There are times, as in sports announcing,
when one is simply reporting what's being
played 'upon the stage'.

Melody
________________________________________________________

GREG

I'm posting this for Sandy Jones (willsam@...), a beautiful friend in
Ojai, California.  As the webmistress and literary executor of the William
Samuel estate, she has just updated the William Samuel website at
http://www.williamsamuel.com/ .  I think she's also a member of NDS and/or
HarshaSatsangh!  She edits a printed newsletter, and also handles the
distribution of William Samuels' books, audio and videotapes.

William Samuel (1924-1996) was a remarkable teacher, a true American
original.  He had been exposed to various Western metaphysical teachings,
and then while stationed with the U.S. Army in Asia during WWII, he learned
Taoism.  He synthesized these Western and Eastern understandings into a
sweetly compelling non-dual, heart-filled, down-home American idiom in
several books, including A GUIDE TO AWARENESS AND TRANQUILITY, THE CHILD
WITHIN US LIVES!, and 2 + 2 = REALITY.  Although not widely known by the
spiritual community, Samuel wrote books, received visitors and corresponded
with his readers from his home in the American South for almost twenty
years.  Here is a quote from A GUIDE TO AWARENESS AND TRANQUILITY:

      "There are not two selves, God and me. Or, we could say,
      there is not God and humanity. There is God and God being
      Self-aware. God's Self-awareness is this Self-being-reader,
      aware of these words. There is no other "you" or "me."

There are some related sites.  Sandy has her own site at
http://www.celestialsong.com/  and features a book called CELESTIAL SONG
coming out soon.  Excerpts are on this site.  She communicates with
irrepressible joy, lightness and charm.  As she says about her book, "This
book is for any one who wishes to be happy and carefree.  These little
glimmers of light will lift your heart."  Even her site itself looks happy.
  Who can resist?

Another site is maintained by Rose Burrows at
http://www.peace-and-tranquility.com , for contributions by those attracted
to William Samuels' teaching.  Check out the moving butterfly-pointer and
falling flower petals on these pages!

With love,

--Greg
_______________________________________________________________

MELODY:

You know.....I remember one of the first things Sandeep ever
said to me:  "Do whatsoever you want to, Melody.  Only do it
with your full attention."   I think that's about the best advice I've
ever been given.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MARK forwards this from another list:

"The basic ground of compassionate action is the importance of working
WITH rather than struggling AGAINST, and what I mean by that is working
with your  own unwanted, unacceptable stuff, so that when the
unacceptable and unwanted  appears out THERE, you relate to it based on
having worked with  loving-kindness for yourself.  Then there is no
condescension.  This  nondualistic approach to true to the heart because
it's based on our kinship  with each other.  We know what to say,
because we have experienced closing  down, shutting off, being angry,
hurt, rebellious, and so forth, and have made a relationship with those
things in ourselves."

- Pema Chodron, "Start Where You Are:  A Guide to Compassionate Living"

May this be of benefit.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Just as a solid rock
is not shaken by the storm,
even so the wise
are not affected by praise or blame.

Dhammapada 81

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MICHAEL READ and DAVE:

Since returning to Portland after the retreat I have been having
such a wonderful time. Every moment is fraught with the delightful
sense of being. Just being.

These 'events' have occurred.
-------
At dinner with a friend: I asked her if she wanted to know the
'secret' of 'enlightenment'. Of course she said yes! I told her
that her ordinary conciousness is the true Self. Well, she just
started to glow! Then I told her that this understanding removes
worry about 'going' to heaven or to hell. She then began to worry
about her ill and aged father. She said that something survives,
surely something goes on. Then I told her that her father's
conciousness is the Self too! She started glowing again! :-)

The next day on the phone with another friend: I asked her the same
question. She of course said yes. When I told her that her
counciousness was the Self, she just said, "Oh, I already knew that!"
HAHAHAH :-)))))

The other day at work taking a break outside with two co-workers,
both young men (18 and 20) we were talking about 'religion'. One
said he has been studying all kinds of religions from Christianity
to Moslem to Buddhism and it just seems that the thing to do is
be a good person. The other said his viewpoint is Christian based.
As far as he can tell God is just the energy that is everywhere.
He then said a very non-dual thing. "God created all of this
because he wanted a soap opera." I gave him a big 'thumb's up' and
said. "Works for me!" What a delight those two youngsters are!

Last night, at the invitaion of a friend, I went to watch belly
dancers. What a treat! All of the dancers exhibited such beauty,
grace and joy! The best dancer danced last. Wow! She was so
immersed in the dance that we were all caught up in her expression
of grace and beauty!

While we were waiting for the dancing to begin (and hopefully for
Carol's husband to arrive) I told her about the retreat. She and I had
been co-followers of guru maharaji (back in the days). I asked her
if she remembered how blissful we used to get back then. Yeah.
Well being at the retreat was like that - only a thousand times
better! Nobody brought any baggage - just themselves! My friend
loved it!

After the dancing, my friend, her husband and I went for a walk down
by the riverfront. The night was warm and comfy and lovely. I turned
to my friend and asked her if whe wanted to know the secret. Of
course, she said yes. (who can resist knowing a secret?). When
I told her that her ordinary conciousness was the Self, she appeared
a bit startled! "But, you mean?" Yup! Her husband said, "Everybody
is." He just stated it so matter of factly! Lovely!

So, dear friends on this list and everywhere, Live - Laugh - Love
and be happy. Your very conciousness is the true Self! But, of course
You already know that!

HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!

Peace - Your very own Mind is the Mind of Buddha -
Peace - Your very own Heart is the Heart of Christ -
Peace - Your very own Body is the Body of God - Michael


DAVE:
It's almost scarey isn't it?

Everybody knows!

All ya gotta do is show them the good side!

Michael, I'm so happy for you, and I know
your going to bring em all home.

THIS CAN be a permanent condition!

As Captain Picard would say. Make it so.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

GENE and JERRY:


Gene Poole wrote:
'God' issues us a 'blank check'. We can fill in the amount and cash it.


Jerry:
Hi Gene! Yes, I bank there and I'm still in debt!


Gene:
  Experience fills in the amount, and it is called 'identity', or what
some refer to as 'ego'. I prefer the term 'identity'.


Jerry:
How about the term 'i-debt-ity'? The moment one fills in the
check he is in debt.


Gene:
  We try to 'cash' our check to 'get' the rewards for having 'learned
  by experience'; in other words, we assume that our experiences are
  like 'money in the bank', which we can spend for forwarding of our
  mission of becoming whole and complete. This takes various  versions,
  such as 'healing', 'enlightenment', 'realization', etc.


  We assume that there is something to learn, which has 'redeeming' or
'transformative' value; we fill in our check to that amount, and then
try to capitalize upon it or 'cash' it.


Jerry:
But where are we borrowing from to get this cash? It's gotta
be paid back!


Gene:
  Now, there is an unseen trick in this, however. 'God' gives us the
  blank check, but also slyly provides everything for free, AKA
  'Grace'. What we have, then, is a situation in which a person has
  access to all the 'money' (experience => identity-structure) they
  want, but in reality, money is never needed, because nothing really
  costs anything. It is all freely available at 'Grace-Mart' (which is
  wherever you are).


Jerry:
Attention Grace-Mart shoppers...

So we never really needed to go into debt, or i-debt-ity. It
just seems easier than going to Grace-Mart. Or there are
many distractions on the way to Grace-Mart, one never gets
there!


Gene:
  Seeing this seeming paradox, a person is free to erase the asking
  amount on the check, to return it to the blank condition, and live by
  Grace alone.


Jerry:
At least one can start consolidating one's loans.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jerry:

Until bankruptcy, one is living in debt, some heavier than
others. Either one is in debt or one has zero in their
checking account. Debt reduction is possible. Consolidation
of loans is possible. Payment of some loans is possible too.
An example of debt reduction is something like attendance at
Landmark Forum or a good retreat, or relationship with a
good Guru, or an instant of insight. One might come out of
these experiences having paid off a good portion of the
debt, or at least having consolidated loans.

To put this in other words, nothing external is required for
restoration of equanimity. There is no need to resort to a
teaching or anything else. What is needed is already
present.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

from MARK and MARY:

Hi Beloveds,

Mary reminds me of a fun exchange we had at the retreat.  Michael put a
variety of beautiful polished stones in a bowl on the table and invited
us all to select one as a gift.  I had fun noticing that I chose a white
translucent stone with black specks while Mary on my right and Indra on
my left both chose deep black stones with white specks.  Later, I
noticed that most of the stones that were left after people chose their
particular stone were transparent, and I nudged Mary and pointed out
that nobody took a clear stone.  She replied that it was because we
couldn't see them.  yum.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

JERRY and MICHAEL READ:

There's no need to resort to anything beyond the taste of
ordinary consciousness. At least a person can reduce the
number and kinds of things to which they resort. One must be
aware of what they are dependent upon, and there's nothing
wrong with that dependence. The retreat showed that there is
very little, nothing, a person needs to resort to.


MICHAEL:

Yes. We lived with nothing to defend and nothing to demand
and nothing to protect and no expectations and we were filled
with fullness. Oh, how sweet it is!

Gazing With Wonder into Your Eyes

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MATTHEW:

Who isn't interested only in themselves? Who isn't
interested only in  their own goings on, their own process,
wether it be external or internal?. That is simply the self-
referencing, self-absorptive, narcissistic nature of ego.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PHIL:
Howdy, folks.  I confess I am envious I don't live within
affordable travel distance from where the retreat was.  I
have been looking at the pictures and everything looks neat.

I thought I might adopt something Tim G. used to do
here.  Here goes.  Anyone here listen to MP3 music?  There
is some very meditative ambient stuff at MP3.com.  If you
have a player (winamp for windows I think it is) you should
point it to the following for some very deep listening:

http://downloads.mp3.com/AAICQiKvCgBB3sceDQEYwARub3JtUAMAAABSIwQAAFECAAAAU5YAA
ABUAQAAAEOtq3c5lwNKK.QqsnMDbzffBP.eag--/in_then_out.mp3

Enjoy.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

GREG and MIGUEL-ANGEL:

Greg had written:
Nisargadatta says it doesn't matter what happens
because it's
not You or Your life anyway;


Miguel-Angel:
Quite true, usually he just dismisses the question of
reincarnation as having no relevance:
"The question of resistance [to reincarnation] does not
arise. What is born and reborn is not you. Let it
happen, watch it happen." (I Am That, p.469)

But sometimes he does deal with the matter more
directly (in the sense of rejecting reincarnation):

"Reincarnation implies a reincarnating self. There is
no such thing." (I Am That, p.262)

When I was young, I used to believe in reincarnation. I
thought that the injusticies one has to bear in this
life somehow have to be cancelled or compensated in a
next one. Think of the millions of poor little children
who starve to death. Later I saw that if nature is
inherently cruel and ruthless towards individuals, that
is the way it is and no future lives will mend that.
Now I think that individual life has no substance, as
it is
just a dream, a story being told, a brief interruption
of silence and peace. Only That which neither is born
nor dies can be said to really exist. Why bother at all
about anything else?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

CHRISTIANA:

Hey, I hear there's a new em-bank-ment being filled up over yonder...
comprised entirely of the indebtedness of 'i-debt-ity'. Funny thing
is that it's currency looks like nothing

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ED:

Typically the self vacillates between objective
duality and subjective nonduality according to the
degree of separation experienced. Within the swings
is noticed different points of identity according to
conditioned experience. At the very 'center' is a point
of non-identification, a 'transcendence point', which
is the key to Selfhood.

In this view the self, moving consciously between its
everyday reality and inner subjectivity, reveals its
conditioned tendencies and 'self-formulated' intentions
through a variety of thoughts, feelings, and actions.
These expressions of self represent the different points
of identification derived through experience.

At the midway point between objective and subjective
cognition is a place where no known experience or
identification occurs; it is an unknown 'place' since no
consciousness or sense of self can manifest there.  It is
possible, however, that this 'site' could be a well-hidden
feed-through point for energy of a higher order.  Apparently,
liberation from binding identification and self could occur
at this point, yet little or no known attention seems to be
given to this possibility.

(Reminder: some points of identification are binding;
others are liberating in that they move consciousness
serendipitously closer to the midway [transcendence/
Grace?] point.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

More from GENE and JERRY:

>J: So we never really needed to go into debt, or i-debt-ity. It
>just seems easier than going to Grace-Mart. Or there are
>many distractions on the way to Grace-Mart, one never gets
>there!

G:The Christians and others would say that what is going on is
'temptation'. One is born into a culture which values courageous
stupidity over cautious wisdom; one then acts those values daily.
Fortunately, we all live in Grace-Mart, know it or not. Our debts are
covered, but not many folks stop working to pay the syntax.

> > Seeing this seeming paradox, a person is free to erase the asking
> > amount on the check, to return it to the blank condition, and live by
> > Grace alone.
>
>J: At least one can start consolidating one's loans.


G: Or at least paying attention to the Tao Jones averages: Yang, up 12%,
Yin down 12%

        00oo00

>J: Until bankruptcy, one is living in debt, some heavier than
>others. Either one is in debt or one has zero in their
>checking account. Debt reduction is possible. Consolidation
>of loans is possible. Payment of some loans is possible too.
>An example of debt reduction is something like attendance at
>Landmark Forum or a good retreat, or relationship with a
>good Guru, or an instant of insight. One might come out of
>these experiences having paid off a good portion of the
>debt, or at least having consolidated loans.
>
>To put this in other words, nothing external is required for
>restoration of equanimity. There is no need to resort to a
>teaching or anything else. What is needed is already
>present.
>
>Jerry
>--

Well said, Jerry. I guess that means that really, nothing is needed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

GREG:

.  I'm suggesting the name Indra for the beautiful lady who has
called herself Old Hag.  Why?  She is neither old, nor a hag.  She said
that she really has no name that seems to fit, as she finds herself
adapting to the energies and personalities of whoever is in front of her at
the moment.  This is just like the jewels in Indra's Net.  I'd noticed that
in her e-mails before meeting her.

Why Indra?  Although in Hinduism and Buddhism Indra is male, and even
though in Hinduism Indra is a warrior deity, here are some reasons I like
Indra for o.h.

- To these Western ears, Indra *sounds* like a female name, and I
   actually know a nice Hindu lady by that name.
- In the Rig Veda, Indra is "the bounteous" and has a hundred strengths
- In Buddhism in the Avatamsaka Sutra, Indra's Net is
   the net of jewels (phrase made popular by Ramesh Balsekar).
   The meaning of this image in Buddhism is a model of
   phenomenality itself.  No jewel or object is an inherently existing
   entity - they are all just dependently arising reflections of
   other reflections, which are only reflections of them, etc.
   Because each jewel is empty of inherent nature, each jewel,
   even the tiniest grain of sand, is ultimately the stillness
   and serenity of Buddha nature.
- The recent scientific model of the holographic universe
   is another way to refer to the this same empty inter-
   dependence.  Each bit of energetic stuff contains all
   the rest of the universe in it.

I'll try to keep this name going as long as it doesn't become confusing, or
unless Indra demurs.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MICHAEL READ:

I just found out today that Andrew Cohen is going to
be at the New Renaissance Bookshop tomorrow afternoon.
The topic is Liberation in This Lifetime.

The blurb states: Andrew Cohen is not just a spiritual teacher, he is
an inspiring phenomenon. Since his awakening in 1986 he has spoken
one thing: the potential for total liberation .......

I have not seen much of his work. I did browse some of his book
_Enlightenment is a Secret_ and his autobiography of awakening.
Kind of interesting, they were. Somehow :-) when anyone says that
there is a possiblity of tainting pure awareness, I just have to
laugh!

The sense I have at this moment is that he no doubt had a fundamental
and powerful experience. Now he is grasping that experience as
'THE BIG ANSWER' Heehee hoohoo - been there done that!

Oh well - it's all the play of the Self!

Enlightenment: ha! enlightenment and a buck two fifty will buy
a nice latte' or a mocha, if one prefers. :-))

So, if anyone on this list would like to share thoughts on AC....?

I'm going to peruse the web to see what I can find. Yah, I have
looked at the WIE site, got it bookmarked too. Nice fantasy mag.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PRESENTNONEXIST:


in this frigid hour I have reached
the zenith of consumption

I have everything a human being
could possibly acquire and more

been to all the teachers studied all the wisdom
obscenely overindulging  in the great search for truth

how could I possibly still be yearning
horny limp and tragically foolish for more

if rounds of weary lifetimes and oceans of
bloody tears have taught me something

I have forgotten

the terror of assuming the meat body
has finally caught up to me, gasping for air

torn in a million throbbing  pieces
continuing is all I know, but the intense

suffering of thinking I am human is more
than I can,  more than I,  but tolerate I have

rounds and endless rounds of playing the birth and death dance

who do I think I am kidding?
no one is playing but

me in this frigid hour       I face myself

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

LINK from JERRY:

The following was posted to by M to his Bhairava list.
Photos of the Ashram are at the following address:
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery.fcgi?p=999&gid=16080&uid=11536

Also see M's web pages at http://www.nonduality.com/m.htm,
and the links there.

Having shared the experience of retreat amongst ourselves,
perhaps it is worthwhile to hear reports of about other
spiritual gatherings (not necessarily retreats, as such). I
have a greater appreciation for such reports, and maybe
others do as well. If anyone else thinks such reports are of
value, perhaps they can be sent to the lists.

Jerry
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---


Namaste (Bhairava) List,

I am going to share some of the moments of
the week at the ashram this year, including Guru Purnima
and the ground-breaking ceremony on the new Ashram
property!

I arrived on Tuesday afternoon. Tuesday and Wednesday were
spent acclimating myself to the dynamic stillness and the
early rises, usually around 4:00 a.m. By Thursday I was
musing to myself as I worked in the garden, that I was in
considerably less pain than normal, and that I would
certainly enjoy a walking stick to get me around during the
tough times that I had with the movement and pain.
Immediately after I mused this, I looked down at the large
bush I was pruning, and there under the bush on a concrete
wall about two feet high was a stick cut from a
tree--approximately four or four and a half feet high. It
was perfect in thickness and length, and was strong as
well. When I asked, no one in the ashram knew anything
about it at all, and so I had my walking stick. Thursday
morning was also a delightful chant of, among the other
daily chants, the Guru Gita with the Satguru,
Mahamandaleshwar Guruji Nityananda.

By Friday the atmosphere was charged for the weekend and
there were people pouring in from Australia, England,
India, South America and other parts of the U.S. The icing
on the cake with these types of gatherings is a rich
cultural experience. One night while staying in the barn,
myself and an Australian and a couple of others mused over
the differences in dialects in different English speaking
Countries. Delightful conversations like this always capped
the evenings in the Shakti filled barn loft where we
stayed. The nights in the Barn are magical times for me
each year.

Saturday was the intensive. Eight hours of chanting and
meditating with the Guru! What bliss! What expansiveness of
Awareness! If any of you had a strange experience or
feeling on Saturday, that is why, for I had you all in my
heart, and the Mahashakti has no limitations of time or
space, indeed She is the root of these.

Sunday was full of magic and surprises as we attended the
Yagna fire ceremony at the new property. The Yagna was
conducted under a tent on undeveloped land, so it was
important for rain to pass us by lest we wallow in mud all
day. Two days before the Yagna rain moved in, and the day
before it was to take place it rained a steady stream all
day, with more in the forecast for Saturday. A group was
formed to chant and meditate for these two days at the
property to invoke the Grace of fair whether.

What happened next was unbelievable.

The day of the Yagna, Saturday, we arrived at the tent and
began to chant the Guru Gita to start the ceremony, which
was to Lord Ganesh, the Shakti of God which is the Remover
of Obstacles and Lord of Categories, Arts and Sciences, and
also to Lord Vastu, the deity or Shakti of the earth. These
two were the chosen dieties in order to remove obstacles
and give a fresh beginning with blessings on the new
property, and to propitiate the spirit of the Earth,
seeking forgivenes for disturbing the land and asking
blessings. In fact, there are only a couple of trees which
have to be removed, everything else was able to be built
without disturbing a single leaf or plant. But the grass
and the couple of trees that are going to be disturbed are
taken very seriously.

And so as we began to chant the Guru Gita, a hole opens up
in the sky just above the tent. It got bigger as the
Brahmin priest chanted over the next hour nonstop, pouring
oblations into the fire. Beautiful is not the world for the
ceremony. It was truly magical. Afterwards, we moved down
to the site where the welcome center/office is going to be
to conduct the ground breaking puja/ceremony. As the
ceremony was being conducted, the clouds scattered, leaving
a five mile wide hole of blue sky just above us, while the
rest of the region was cloud covered and even raining in
spots. It was incredible. I even have a picture of the hole
in the sky, which I will post when I get some of the pics
scanned.

So then we retired to the dinner tent where we enjoyed a
delicious vegetarian supper, and then I coordinated the
dishwashing at the stream. We got the tough spots of food
of with ash from the cooks fire. Very simplistic and back
to earth...I have some great pics of that too. At any rate,
no sooner than the dishes where done and the major stuff
packed, then the hole closed up and the rain came. It was
weird.

Equally weird was the two events that happened to me that
day. At the Yagna, I poured myself into the fire, starting
with the gross elements and working all the way up to the
Shiva Principle. After the ceremony I was musing on whether
my misfortune of the last few months was about to change,
and whether a sign of it would be available. Then the
Brahmin priest thrusts one of the coconuts from the Ganesh
Yagna at me and tells me to take it. Now you have to
understand that coconuts are considered auspicious in
India, and if a holy man hands it too you, consider
yourself a blessed person! The other event that was equally
odd and beautiful was when I was musing on my mala. You
see, it broke that morning in the barn, and I was thinking
that the day was perfect except for my broken mala. As soon
as that thought passed through the mind, a yogi friend of
mine walks up to me and says "here, a late birthday
present" and hands me a beautiful new mala!

It was truly an unforgettable day.

The days left there at the ashram were spent basking in the
afterglow of the Shakti from the weekend whilst in the
company of the Sadguru...

Finally the day came to leave, and as I went to the barn to
get my things, one last funny thing happened. You see, I
had lost my sunglasses the second day after I arrived
there, and had looked everywhere. In the meantime I had
built a puja beside my bed with the coconut from the
brahmin priest and the Ganesh murti I had bought, along
with a picture of Bhagavan Nityananda. There beside the
puja sat my sunglasses on the open floor! I had turned that
area upside down, and could not find them, and yet here
they were in plain view now.

Afterthought: When I had bought that Ganesh murti I had
done so with the last of my money that I was going to use
to eat with on the way home, thinking that going a few
hours more without food was a small price to pay for the
murti. However, after the plane rose to cruising altitude,
I was amazed to find that they were serving a hot meal on a
2 1/2 hour flight, something not normally done!

Lastly, my wife called two days before I left to tell me
that she had broke her foot and two of her toes. She wanted
me to tell Guruji about it, so I did. As usual, Guruji
simply acknowledged that I had spoken with a gentle nod,
however, upon arriving home my wife and I were amazed to
find that at the bone specialists office the next morning,
they wanted new x-rays, and upon looking at them could not
find the break in the foot or one of the toes. Mysteriously
now there was only one broken toe and the bruising was
gone!

Sagurunath Maharaj Ki Jai
M


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BOB ROSE:

If you want to know The Answer,
stop asking the question.

Kir Li Molari

Bob Rose
Meditation Society of America
www.meditationsociety.com


HARSHA:
If you want to know the Answer,
never be afraid to ask any question!
Pursue your truth, until you see
that You are the Truth.
A spontaneous silence
is the fragrance of the Self.


DAN:
Harsha -
I enjoy very much reading
   this, resonating...

When I say,
  "What is it that being present
    has always been present?"

Am I asking or answering -
   is this a query or
   a statement?

Who can say???

Only Silence,
Dan


JAN:
What is an answer but a response to a question,
what is an answer but a sequence of words and
what is a valid argument to one is but an excuse
for egoism to someone else.
Questions  are revealing dissatisfaction and no
answer can change that. When no more questions arise,
that is "THE" Answer and no method or system can provide for that :)




DAN:
If you ask the question
   fully and deeply,
then the question itself
   is its own answer.

where the beginning
   is the end ...

Silently,
Dan


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ED and GENE

NDS

From: "Ed Arrons"
Subject: Gene/ Ed, your remark

G: Nice, Ed. What you said, does mean something;
I am unsure what, but it rings true to me.

E: Typically the self vacillates between objective
duality and subjective nonduality according to the
degree of separation experienced. Within the swings
is noticed different points of identity according to
conditioned experience. At the very 'center' is a point
of non-identification, a 'transcendence point', which
is the key to Selfhood. <

E: Thanks for commenting, Gene.  Attempt to clarify
the above follows.  Perhaps you can elaborate on what
is coming through here from your own perspective.

In this view the self, moving consciously between its
everyday reality and inner subjectivity, reveals its
conditioned tendencies and 'self-formulated' intentions
through a variety of thoughts, feelings, and actions.
These expressions of self represent the different points
of identification derived through experience.


G:My experience is this: Similar to above, yet, I have both
perspectives at the same time.

My mind ('difference engine') continually (transparently) runs a
routine in which the one is overlayed upon the other; the difference
is clearly highlighted as being 'artifacts of my conditioning'.

At this point I have the choice of looking at the 'living products'
of my conditioning, or ignoring them. I suspect that this
self-examination routine is really not that difficult to set up, but
that the majority of people seem to have established an extreme
attachment to their own products of conditioning as the 'sine quo
non' of 'who they are'. This identification is what is replicated
forcefully whenever reality intrudes; this 'patching' procedure is
what makes it seem that there is a continuity of individual self.

What is really going on with this ongoing patching (fixing) of a
wavering identity structure, is the maintenance of something which is
the most ephemeral of all things, something which is purely an
invention, and which is dependent upon the expenditure of a vast
amount of energy. It is similar to the futile task of preserving a
block of ice on a hot day, by the act of using the body to shield it
from the rays of the sun, all the while fanning it and chanting
anti-melting mantras, etc. The real masters of identity-preservation
will put a chill on the entire surrounding area, for the sake of
preventing their rigid crystallized identity from melting,
liquefying, and eventually returning to invisible vapor. Those who so
indulge, are known as 'control freaks'.

E: At the midway point between objective and subjective
cognition is a place where no known experience or
identification occurs; it is an unknown 'place' since no
consciousness or sense of self can manifest there.  It is
possible, however, that this 'site' could be a well-hidden
feed-through point for energy of a higher (order).  Apparently,
liberation from binding identification and self could occur
at this point, yet little or no known attention seems to be
given to this possibility.

G: Yes, a good assessment. The 'corpus collosum' of the human
brain-anatomy corresponds to this crossover point. If we make an 'X',
this point is where the two lines intersect. If you look at the X,
you will see two arrows meeting at the junction; if you look at the
Star of David, you will see a similar figure, in which the two realms
have merged as one.

This is the 'transform point', and indeed, in that area, all energy
and information are 'neutral'. Our 'problems' seem to occur as
arisings leave the neutral zone; they are taken in hand and shaped in
such a way as to match the ongoingly-patched identity structure.

This point also corresponds to the region of consciousness which
joins/separates 'conscious awareness' from the 'unconscious'. It is
in this zone that the products of the unconscious arise, in their
pure form, only to be corrupted to match the pre-existing assumption
of 'who I am'. If one can relax about 'who I am', the arisings from
the unconscious become superb revelatory messages.

E:(Reminder: some points of identification are binding;
others are liberating in that they move consciousness
serendipitously closer to the midway [transcendence/
Grace?] point.)



G: Binding identification seems to include the activities of the immune
system, which is geared to sustain the physical body. Inner conflicts
(called neurosis) destabilize immunity, leading to calamity, which is
the attention-getting cue (from the unconscious) that survival
requires manual intervention. A lifetime of improper (but socially
rewarded) identification eventually neutralizes immunity, resulting
in deterioration and death.

I hold that Self-Realization is a natural occurrence, and that its
'opponent' is continual self-reward implicit in social identity. This
fierce addiction, defined as self-rewarding behaviour, is the product
of interior conversations between introjected social-control values
and the dependent (IE, helpless) infant which everyone has been. In
this manner, the past (familial) system of identity-confirmation is
developed and amplified into the automatic identity-patching
mechanism. This mechanism can be called the 'machine of looking
good'. Appearing to be "good" is the camouflage adopted by the infant
born into the psychotic world-dream.

If the above paragraph is understood, it becomes apparent that by
halting the interior conversations, the 'machine of looking good'
will be decommissioned. At that point, Self-Realization will occur,
as it now has no opponent.

Remember, Self-Realization is not a product. It is not compounded
from anything; it is 'always a possibility', ignored because of a
clamor in the foreground. If this clamor is eliminated, the
background (Self) becomes all that there is.

Hearing the sound of space,

==Gene Poole==

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Who's an Ol Hag!'


GREG:
Mark just reminded me.  It started at the retreat, and seems
to have been catching on.  I'm suggesting the name Indra for
the beautiful lady who has called herself Old Hag.


GENE:
Indra was able to travel about
Through a web of Jewels without a doubt

Each node connected through reflection
All nodes connected, sheer perfection

This ancient vision has now come true
It is how this message comes to you

How is it that we have always known
Our nodes are connected as is now shown

By this internetwork sharing mode
Each person an interoperable node

Could it be that what will appear
Is our dream come true, as held so dear

Our hope and vision of "All is One"
Yet each may celebrate the fun

As ancient vision became this 'net
Our real network will appear as yet

Unseen by most but sensed by some
Each faceted jewel spinning in the sun

In empty space this network lives
Each facet precious jewel gives

Delicate spectral texture to
This network which is me and you.


Multi-Faceted,
==Gene Poole==

~~~~

Gene comments:

It may be true that women 'evolve' from reproductive-functional stage
to 'elder' or 'hag' stage. This is represented widely in the
literature of Feminism, and is hinted in various cultural mythologies.

'Old' is certainly a relative term, not an absolute one.

Perhaps it happens that a woman, upon the expiration of certain
reproduction-specific hormones, then manifests a consciousness less
centered in larval mating rituals, and more centered in
Being-consciousness. This would be an awareness of universal
concerns, rather than gender-specific issues.

Love, when bereft of reproductive thrust, is certainly closer to the
speculated 'unconditional' variety. The role of 'elder' seems to be
found here, in this less frantic territory, less cluttered by the
demands of immediate family, and thus free to nurture the extended
family, IE, all of humanity.

It seems that for humans in the larval stage, mating and reproduction
is an inescapable fate, with few exceptions. The 'old hags' among us
are perhaps, living repositories of the accumulated wisdom which
survives right on through age-specific concerns, to bloom like a
precious flower, rooted in the rich compost of a lifetime of
experience.


MELODY:
I have always loved her calling herself  "Old Hag".

We live in a culture in which women in their 40's - 60's
are ashamed to get out if they do not have a body
or a face that either stirs and excites the sexual passions,

or that suggests she is still capable of bearing
healthy children.

By adopting the name "Old Hag", Amrita invites us
to look squarely in the face of  an 'aging' reality to
discover a reality which does not change.....which
has no end.....which does not grow old.

I've always known she was not as old as she suggests,
and at the same time, I knew she was ancient,

and even then....I saw that she is timeless.

I will call her whatever she chooses to call
herself, but underneath I will whisper with
a smile, "Old Hag".


DAN:
Indeed, you've noticed the
   breathtaking beauty,
   the timeless knowing
   that is this "Old Hag"
   just as she is:
   wisdom in every wrinkle
   around her gentle smile,
   truth shining brightly
    in the void
    between her stained teeth
   ...

and when a barren old woman
   gives birth at midnight,
all doubt of her fecundity
   is shattered.


MARK:
Ahhah!  That's why I pronounce her name OOoooohhhhhhhh......

LOve, Mark


JERRY:
"Spiritually, ecofeminists are drawn to practices and
orientations that nurture experiences of nonduality and
loving reverence for the sacred whole that is the cosmos."

From Charlene Spretnak, "Critical and Constructive
Contributions of Ecofeminism," Pp. 181- 189 in Peter Tucker
and Evelyn Grim (Eds.), Worldviews and Ecology,
Philadelphia: Bucknell Press, 1993.

The entire article is at
http://www.runet.edu/~lridener/courses/ECOFEM.HTML

Also read the article at
http://www.runet.edu/~lridener/courses/ECOFEM2.HTML

In summary, ecofeminism is a movement that focuses
attention on the historical linkage between denigration of
nature and the female. It seeks to shed light on why
Eurocentric societies, as well as those in their global
sphere of influence, are now enmeshed in environmental
crises and economic systems that require continuing the
ecocide and the dynamics of exploitation. Ecofeminism
continues the progression within traditional feminism from
attention to sexism to attention to all systems of human
oppression (such as racism, classism, ageism, and
heterosexism) to recognition that "naturism" (the
exploitation of nature) is also a result of the logic of
domination. (19) Ecofeminism challenges environmental
philosophy to abandon postures upholding supposedly
gender-free abstract individualism and "rights" fixations
and to realize that human relationships (between self and
the rest of the world) are constitutive, not peripheral.
Hence care for relationships and contextual embeddedness
provides grounds for ethical behavior and moral theory.
Politically, ecofeminists work in a broad range of efforts
to halt destructive policies and practices and to create
alternatives rooted in community-based legitimacy that
honors the self-determination of women as well as men and
that locates the well-being of human societies within the
well-being of the entire earth community. Spiritually,
ecofeminists are drawn to practices and orientations that
nurture experiences of nonduality and loving reverence for
the sacred whole that is the cosmos.

Ecofeminism is a global phenomenon that is bringing
attention to the linked domination of women and nature in
order that both aspects can be adequately understood.
Ecofeminists seek to transform the social and political
orders that promote human oppression embedded in ecocidal
practices. The work consists of resistance, creativity, and
hope.

In addition to the philosophical and political aspects,
ecofeminism contains a spiritual dimension. The ecofeminist
alternative to the Western patriarchal worldview of
fragmentation, alienation, agonistic dualisms, and
exploitative dynamics is a radical reconceptualization that
honors holistic integration: interrelatedness,
transformation, embodiment, caring, and love. Such an
orientation is simpatico with the teachings of several
Eastern and indigenous spiritual traditions on nonduality
and the relative nature of seemingly sharp divisions and
separations. To refer to the ultimate mystery of creativity
in the cosmos--its self-organizing, self-regulating
dynamics-- spiritual traditions draw on metaphor and
symbol. Those may be female, male, or nonanthropomorphic,
such as the Taoist perception of The Way. Ecofeminists are
situated in all the major religious traditions, and most
see good reason for women to use female imagery in
references to "the divine," or ultimate mystery in the
cosmos. Particularly, in patriarchal societies, the choice
of female metaphors is a healthy antidote to the cultural
denigration of women. Those ecofeminists drawn to Goddess
spirituality appreciate the nature-based sense of the
sacred as immanent in the earth, our bodies, and the entire
cosmic community--rather than being located in some distant
father-god far removed from "entanglement" with matter. The
transcendent nature of creativity in the cosmos, or the
divine, lies not above us but in the infinite complexity of
the sacred whole that continues to unfold. Goddess
spirituality is not the sole tradition that contains these
understandings, and even religions that are somewhat
hostile to them are being persistently challenged by their
own ecofeminist members.


JERRY:
Dedicated to Indra and Nonduality Gods and Goddesses
everywhere...

Love Minus Zero/No Limit
Bob Dylan (1965)

My love she speaks like silence,
Without ideals or violence,
She doesn't have to say she's faithful,
Yet she's true, like ice, like fire.
People carry roses,
Make promises by the hours,
My love she laughs like the flowers,
Valentines can't buy her.

In the dime stores and bus stations,
People talk of situations,
Read books, repeat quotations,
Draw conclusions on the wall.
Some speak of the future,
My love she speaks softly,
She knows there's no success like failure
And that failure's no success at all.

The cloak and dagger dangles,
Madams light the candles.
In ceremonies of the horsemen,
Even the pawn must hold a grudge.
Statues made of match sticks,
Crumble into one another,
My love winks, she does not bother,
She knows too much to argue or to judge.

The bridge at midnight trembles,
The country doctor rambles,
Bankers' nieces seek perfection,
Expecting all the gifts that wise men bring.
The wind howls like a hammer,
The night blows cold and rainy,
My love she's like some raven
At my window with a broken wing.

-


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MELODY:

Hi Gene,

You wrote, in part:

G:
> At this point I have the choice of looking at the 'living products'
> of my conditioning, or ignoring them. I suspect that this
> self-examination routine is really not that difficult to set up, but
> that the majority of people seem to have established an extreme
> attachment to their own products of conditioning as the 'sine quo
> non' of 'who they are'.

M:
As I was reading this, I found myself agreeing -

saying, "Yes, THEY do"

When I caught that.....when I saw that I
was excluding myself from that category...
I had to really laugh.

I saw that in my agreement I was doing
exactly the 'patching' you describe below.

(continuing below....)


G:
> This identification is what is replicated
> forcefully whenever reality intrudes; this 'patching' procedure is
> what makes it seem that there is a continuity of individual self.
>
> What is really going on with this ongoing patching (fixing) of a
> wavering identity structure, is the maintenance of something which is
> the most ephemeral of all things, something which is purely an
> invention, and which is dependent upon the expenditure of a vast
> amount of energy. It is similar to the futile task of preserving a
> block of ice on a hot day, by the act of using the body to shield it
> from the rays of the sun, all the while fanning it and chanting
> anti-melting mantras, etc. The real masters of identity-preservation
> will put a chill on the entire surrounding area, for the sake of
> preventing their rigid crystallized identity from melting,
> liquefying, and eventually returning to invisible vapor. Those who so
> indulge, are known as 'control freaks'.

M:
I can not think of a better person to share this with.....
knowing down to my toes that you will understand
the spirit in which I share the following:

The analogy you give above (of the blocking the
melting of the ice)  painted a picture very much like
the picture of my own movement these past weeks
....even months.  It is not until I saw the picture
you painted above, that I then saw my own
picture described as follows:

The picture that comes to me of my own movement
these days looks like using a body as a screen to
protect....to help incubate....a bird's nest.

A screening away of the elements and forces of nature
that could sabatoge this natural 'hatching' process.

And those 'forces of nature' that I'm holding at bay
are the presence of other people.  What I'm screening
away are 'friendships'.

When Judi offered her hand yesterday, and her
'friendship', I winced.   My first response was
"No, not now!".   And I knew right away that the
response was not personal to her in anyway.  I
knew my response was "No" to friendships in
general.

And I sense that part of that response may come
from old conditionings, but even more so comes
from what you write below:

G:
> I hold that Self-Realization is a natural occurrence, and that its
> 'opponent' is continual self-reward implicit in social identity. This
> fierce addiction, defined as self-rewarding behaviour, is the product
> of interior conversations between introjected social-control values
> and the dependent (IE, helpless) infant which everyone has been. In
> this manner, the past (familial) system of identity-confirmation is
> developed and amplified into the automatic identity-patching
> mechanism. This mechanism can be called the 'machine of looking
> good'. Appearing to be "good" is the camouflage adopted by the infant
> born into the psychotic world-dream.
>
> If the above paragraph is understood, it becomes apparent that by
> halting the interior conversations, the 'machine of looking good'
> will be decommissioned.

M:
These words bring tears to my eyes.
You have explained to me my own behaviour
better than I knew myself.

Putting this together with the earlier "ah, ha!"
of how I have created a 'me' and 'them' duality

I can see that by doing so, I have succeeded
in creating yet another 'continuity of identity'
to be see thru.

Many thanks, Gene,

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MAD or WHAT?

MELODY:
It's very very tricky trying to tell a 'madman'
from a man of Silence.....both of them supposedly
being "out of their minds" and all.  :-)

JUDI:
Realization, Melody, is about sanity, intelligence, humor, and
most of all understanding. It is NOT about going out of your mind
la-la land nirvana.

MELODY:
Are you getting irritated with me, Judi?

JUDI:
Not you specifically, but this whole spiritual business like I said,
people have the wrong notion of. And Osho, and I'm sure to get called
on the carpet for this, has been a major perpertrator of. They
teach the path of experience - bliss.  Bliss my ass! Has nothing
whatsoever to do with Understanding. Nothing.

DUTCH:
I would like to jump in on this, if I may.
(Melody or Judi, if you want me to shut up, just tell me :-)
One of my students has all this ideas of what realization is going to be
like.
He is in the spiritual bussines for years and years now.
Last week I was on ICQ, chatting with him. I suggested the following to him:
For the week to come, just *pretend* that IT has happened. Let's play that
realization has taken place. Just for the fun of it.
One day later, I received an E-mail from him. He told me, that this feeling
that the search had ended was very strange. Very strange indeed. It almost
made
him feel uncomfortable.
This little exercise shows that not many people are prepared to take into
consideration that we are already IT. Maybe this is a suggestion for those
of you who feel they have a to do more searching. Just pretend, for one day,
that this searching has ended. And see what happens. Does it change
anything?
Do you feel blissfull? Don't you get angry or sad anymore? I'm curious...


JAN:
Thanks for the laugh Judi. Although smadhis are misadvised by for instance
the Buddha, yet the most clear and unmistakable symbol of a samadhi of
extreme
bliss is the "bulb, peak, whatever structure" depicted on top of the head of
someone like the Buddha :)) Only by knowing bliss and its nature, one can
draw
conclusions and these are not transferrable - every individual has to arrive
at them.
One experience of a split-second can debunk the beliefs of ages - or justify
them :))
That is why for instance in Sufism, ecstasy isn't shunned :)


DAN:
Would the flower shun the sunshine?

Not even possible ;-)

The energy animating this body-mind --
   is this energy life, ecstasy, clarity,
    love, or being?

Or is it finally nameless?

What is it *really* to know nothing?

Not-knowing,
Dan




MANCHINE:
In my honest opinion, the difference between
madness and bliss is realization of Self.

To see "all of being" and to be separate from it is hell.
Until one realizes Self, it's intense reality is an impossibility
which leaves one alone, to deal with the endless challenges of
an incomprehensible existance.

Knowing that you are IT changes everything.

Don't ask me to explain.



JUDI:
I think that people have to come to face to face
with the failure of their search. They have to see the search before
they can give it up. In other words, you can't give something up until
it's yours to give up.
People don't realize that they are in fact searching. They call it
living!!


DAN:
I hear the essence of this
    this way:

It's reality.
It's not conceptual.
It's not a mind-trip
   and it's not about
   picturing "as if"
   it were a certain way.

It has nothing to do with
   picturing anything
    being in any way.

There can be no substitute
   for an honest, direct look.

Nothing less will do.


JUDI:
Osho's girlfriend, did you know [went crazy], ended up killing
herself.


MELODY:
Her name was Vivek, I believe.

It's interesting that I would come upon this article
today which weaves into your response here....not only
of Osho.... of suicide....and taking a 'deep look'
at relationships.  And he mentions Vivek.

I thought when I read this: how difficult this
might have been for her to hear.

And I thought that what he says is similar
to your own discovery, Judi.

Here's just a taste of his talk:

"The first truth to experience is that one is alone. The first
truth to experience is that love is illusory. Just think of it, just
think of the enormity of it, that love is illusory. And you have
lived only through that illusion. . .

You were in love with your parents, you were in love with your brothers
and sisters, then you started falling in love with a woman
or a man. You are in love with your country, your church, your religion,
and you are in love with your car, and ice cream and so on
and so forth. You are living in all these illusions.

And suddenly you find yourself naked, alone, all illusions have
disappeared. It hurts.

Just this morning, Vivek was saying - and she has been saying again
and again with these Ikkyu discourses - "These discourses are
heavy, depressing." They are bound to be so, because whenever any of
your illusions are touched it creates great restlessness. You
become afraid; somehow you were managing - and you know deep down
that there is no bottom to it but you don't want to look. Seeing
will be frightening; you want to go on remaining in the illusion.

Nobody wants to see that his love is false. People are ready to
believe that their past loves were false - but this? No, this love
is true. When it has disappeared they will say it was also false -
but then another love is true. In whatsoever illusion they are
living, they pretend that this one is true. "Others - Ikkyu may be
right, Bhagwan may be right about other loves, they were false,
we know. But this one?

This one is a totally different thing. This is not an ordinary love,
I have found my soul mate."

Nobody has ever found one - how can you find your soul mate? Aloneness
is absolute. These are just efforts to deceive yourself - and
you can go on deceiving. That's what you have been doing down the ages,
for so many lives. . .

But you forget. And you forget because of the birth trauma."

"In the new commune, we are going to make efforts to make you remember
your past lives. Then you will not think that these sayings
of Ikkyu are depressive - then you will see these are the truths.

But you are living in an untrue life, thinking you are doing something
new. And because you think it is new, you remain enchanted by it, by the
magic of the new. If you can come to know that you have fallen in love
millions of times, and each time it was a failure, it will be impossible
to fall into the trap again. You will see that it is futile - that there is
no
soul mate, that there has never been. That aloneness is absolute. That
there is no way to commune, there is no way to communicate.
'That nobody can understand you, and you cannot understand anybody.

I know these talks are bound to be depressive. Why? Because these talks will
touch some wounds in you and the pus will start oozing
out. And remember always: sometimes it is good to keep the wound open,
because that is the condition for its cure. But courage is
needed, certainly; without courage nothing can be done. To keep the wound
open needs great courage - but that is the condition for
its cure !

You would like to hide it. You would like to hide it behind flowers, you
would like to forget about the wound. You would like to
move into some consolation: "Maybe love has not happened yet - now it can
happen. This time I may be able to make it."

But love cannot be possible. To make it possible is not a question that
depends on you. Love itself is an impossibility. It keeps
you deluded, it keeps you in a kind of dream state.

Ikkyu says:

"We come into this world alone,
We depart alone. . ."

Togetherness is illusory. Aloneness is more fundamental. Love is illusory,
meditation is more fundamental -but ultimately that too is illusory. That's
where Ikkyu goes one step ahead and takes the quantum leap. You have heard
it
said many times: "We come alone into this world, and we depart alone."
But Ikkyu says:

This also is illusion.
I will teach you the way
Not to come, not to go!

That is Zen, pure Zen. The ordinary religion teaches: Love is illusory. Zen
finally teaches: Even meditation is illusory. Let me make it clear to you.
Love means togetherness - the possibility of being together, the possibility
of being lost into each other, the possibility of communication, the
possibility
of relating. When love fails, utterly fails, you start moving towards
meditation.
Meditation means the capacity to be alone. They are polarities, love and
meditation.
Meditation means the capacity not to relate - there is no need to relate,
one
is enough unto oneself. "



This discourse can be read in its entirety at:

http://oz.sannyas.net/quotes/easy_ii.htm

Melody


JUDI:

Yes, good article. And in my web page I talk about the same thing,
how I saw that my so called love was not really love at all, but
a searching, nothing but a misery itself. I mean like it wasn't bad
enough to have my heart broken, I had to look at that too. And not
only in relationship, but I saw how my whole life, my whole identity
was nothing BUT that. And that's what seeking is. It's not that you
have to be a so called "spiritual" seeker, it's separate identity itself
that is the 'seeker'. Which is in actuality suffering, no matter how many
'happy' moments you can put stacked one on top of another. Do you see what I
mean? I mean that life itself is not all suffering, it does have its
moments,
but real happiness that is not dependent on conditions, or 'moments'
in and of themselves is what needs be discovered. Happiness lies in the
transcendence, in the understanding of that whole business. And it's not
out in the sky somewhere or hiding in your head somewhere in some
blissful meditation, or in some experience that one could have. And the
good news is, you don't have to wait for all your desires to be fulfilled
before understanding. That could be a long time, or maybe never, depending
on luck.


MELODY:

Isn't that what a teacher does....creates the
space for Understanding to take place?

JUDI:
All a teacher really can do is point, hoot and hollar maybe,
to get your attention. Generally make a nuisance of themselves. :-)
The student must ultimately create their own space for the teaching
to occur. In other words you can trust and lean on a teacher up a point,
but the final walk belongs to the student and must be done alone. And
at that point the teaching all of a sudden becomes alive, no longer an
academic matter.
You find yourself living the teaching.  And the teacher is no longer
needed.
It becomes a non-event. And you see that nothing has really happened.
And nothing is happening. And the next thing you know, it's lunch. ;-)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ANDREW COHEN ..

MICHAEL READ:

I just found out today that Andrew Cohen is going to
be at the New Renaissance Bookshop tomorrow afternoon.
The topic is Liberation in This Lifetime.


MANCHINE:

Seems like AC is getting around! Which is more than I'm doing... for
the moment.

Well, I get around like you, talking to people here and there, but
he's kind of stuck his neck out! Takes this shit seriously! What're ya
gonna' do?

Anyways, we're doing five workshops, following his opening here in
Chile, they're his themes, but, look at them... it's been interesting
seeing what we can do.

1. Clarity of Intention (Singularity of focus, or Nonduality in everything)
2. Responsibility. (Assume responsibility for everything we do.. Can't blame
    others)
3. Face Everything, Avoid nothing. (Go the distance. Find the nondual
    solution. Sometimes it's work!)
4. Truth of Impersonality (We are Self - Coming to that understanding,
    Enlightenment is personal until it is realized that "we" don't exist)
5. For the good of all (How our knowledge of that can work through us)

I don't know exactly where he's really at, guess I'll know in October.
Read lots of stuff, pro and con. It seems strong either way! We've got
a great audience of 250+ people, with an interest. Smaller than NDS but,
it's a start!

P.S.
Any notes or feedback accepted!


JERRY:
Cohen's book, Embracing Heaven and Earth, goes through those
five tenets. The first one, clarity of intention, has to do
with looking deeply into simplicity until a simplicity is found
that is absolute. Then the trick is to keep one's attention there.
Now, how this gets translated into a workshop that scores of
people may be attending, I do not know, other than to take
the people through a guided meditation. I saw Greg do that
very effectively at the retreat. It can leave people with a
deeper taste of simplicity than they've known.

Looking through the other chapters describing the other four
tenets, I wouldn't know how to convert them into workshops,
but they would make very, very  interesting ones. I'd like
to know how you guys pull it off. What's the trick to taking
a chapter in a book and making it into a workshop? I guess
you can take statements made by Cohen and, leaving them
incomplete, have workshop members attempt to complete them.
Then a discussion is led with an eye on what the 'answer',
according to Cohen or the workshop leader, is.

For example, in the second tenet Cohen says the most
difficult choice for a person to make is the one to be
responsible for everything he or she does. Some people may
remember that from Cohen's talk or his book, or simply know
it; but workshop attendees can be asked anyway what they
believe the most difficult choice is for a person to make.
They can be asked to identify choices they have failed to
take responsibility for. They can then be brought to the
moment of simplicity evoked in Tenet One in order to see
that assuming responsibility is the most simple act.

These are some elementary suggestions. Each tenet builds on
the earlier one. Once a person sees simplicity, it is
natural to take responsibility for everything one does. Once
one takes responsibility it is possible to understand the
third tenet of facing everything and avoiding nothing.
Facing everything and avoiding nothing, or paying deep
attention to everything, one is lifted toward the grasping
of the fourth tenet of the truth of impersonality, which
says there is no one having an experience. If there is no
one having an experience (of if one has fallen through all
experience as the result of deep attention to experience),
one evolves toward the truth of the fifth tenet, which says
there is no enlightenment for the individual, or that the
individual is everyone and the evolution of the whole is
take on.

Now, Dave, Cohen himself does not address the flow from
Tenet One through Tenet Five, as I have. I'm not sure why.
Also, I would emphasize that Tenet One, the return to
simplicity, is abidance, and I would consider going through
it in each workshop. In approaching any of these tenets, I'd
want my workshop attendees to go through that Tenet One
guided meditation. I'd also speak about abidance.

You might also want to add a sixth tenet or workshop called
HAHAHAH AND HOHOHO, which Michael could comment further
upon, and which would bring people back to tenet one through
a different door. Humor's important, obviously. It helps
keep the whole teaching moving through a person.

The effective workshop leader cannot merely speak for Andrew
Cohen, or as one who has studied Cohen's writings. The
effective workshop leader has to be able to take Cohen's, or
any spiritual teacher's, teachings, and stand for and as the
truth of them. The leader has to impart the taste of Truth,
and that really has nothing to do with the five tenets,
which are only tools the effective teacher uses to impart
the taste of truth.

You're in a position to impact some lives, Dave.
Effectiveness comes back to tenet one: absolute simplicity,
and tenet six, humor, in my opinion, and with liberal use of
those in each workshop, the attendees should be quite happy
and they will go home with a new way of looking at
themselves and the world, I'm sure. However, what happens
from that point? That has to be addressed as well. The
attendees can't merely be sent home. You might want to think
about how to provide for continuance.


MICHAEL:
Well, I didn't do any flute shopping. I had a lovely vegetarian
lunch at an Indian restaurant and went to hear AC talk.

Hooha! Andrew is a nice person. He is sincere and appears
rather unshakable in his viewpoint. He also has a delightful laugh.
He genuinely cares about people and wants to help.

I largely kept quiet during his talk and the question and answer
period. That is to say, I didn't speak, but I did almost fall
off of the chair laughing at one point. More on that later.

AC stated that he would discuss his new book for about 45 min and
then take questions.

What he talked about were his five tenents. I won't go into them
here. He says exactly the same thing on his web site
www.andrewcohen.org

The 'crux' of his focus was that he had developed these five laws
over the last fifteen years. Yes, he referred to them as laws.
Furthermore, any truly enlightened person HAS to agree that these
laws are correct. How could it be otherwise? (His words - not mine.)

One of his emphasises (sp) was on the point that the seeker has to
have an overwhelming desire to attain liberation. This is of course
emphasised by most if not all teachers and religions. (My words)

Where I almost fell off the chair was when he referred to the
'diabolical ego'! Earlier in his talk he tried to make a joke about
rape. He couldn't understand it when nobody laughed. He said it
must be something about Portland. Excuse me, I like a joke as much
as or more than the next gentle being, but rape? Well it must
have been the diabolical ego that thinks rape is funny. Sheesh!

Anyway -

AC, despite the lapse into failed humor, did often state that
there is only one conciousness a number of times. He would also
say that you, the seeker, had to do something to realize this
conciousness. More like, you have to do something to become
enlightened. There was never a mention of grace.

His message or teaching, if you will, was a mixed bag
of duality, non-duality, work, and responsibility. Because he
often repeated that the overwhelming desire for liberation
is so vital to the process, some may have been inspired to
open up thier hearts.

Overall, his mixed bag of concepts and insistance that his tenets
are the only real path may make him less than appealing to many.
His personality is somewhat guarded, though he exihibits an outward
fondness for people. He may be more dynamic in a longer workshop
environment.

This tour is mainly a book promotion. He said that he was doing
the West coast in a week. After the talk he autographed
copies of his book. I did not purchase one. I did take a moment
to shake his hand and thank him for his visit. When I shook hands
with him I noticed that his aura was lit up in the white and extended
out a few inches from his body. He was obviously quite pleased with
the afternoon's talk.

Would I want to become a student of his? In a word, no.
Does he have something of 'value' to offer? Of course, we all do. :-)

HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!

Peace - Michael

WHICH COMES FIRST? THE QUESTION OR THE ANSWER?

BOB ROSE:
If you want to know The Answer,
stop asking the question.

Kir Li Molari

OR-

Until there are no ????,
there is no !
Kir Li Molari


GREG:

I agree, and so did Jan - the real answer is the non-arising of the
question.


DAN:
The non-arising of the question
   is the answer to the question
   that never arose.

Thus - the question that arose,
   never did; hence, is
   itself the non-arising
   which is its answer.

The question arose because
   it was already answered
   by its nonarising.

I: a rose.

-- Dan


JERRY:

Hi guys,

The play of consciousness seems to be the arising and
resolution of the question, slapping down the question, like
some kid's game, so quickly it's as though it never arose.
Nonduality may be said to be the continuous resolution of
the question. At some point it is seen that there is no
question arising. You let lawns grow wild and mountains of
galaxies form in the wilderness of space. It's ceasing to
play the nonduality game and becoming God.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

UNDERSTANDING

Understanding is great but it comes and goes like everything else.


DAN:

Ueful observation

Yet:

What is It that allows you to say:
   "it comes and goes like everything
    else"?

From Where are you able to see that
   "everything comes and goes"?

That Where isn't coming and going.


JERRY:
I see understanding as more stable than that, present
between breaths, in deep sleep and death.


MARK:
Yes, and that continuity is good news.  When the contact with this
understanding seems to go, it has not really gone, it's just been
dropped momentarily, like a child drops a toy for another one.  It's
still available.  Knowing this helps.  So, here, understanding still
comes and goes, but when I notice it's apparent absence after boarding
the train of thought, I can go back to it by just settling down again.
It's like that muddy water metaphor.  For quite awhile in my life, it
seemed as though everything was in turmoil all the time, never any rest,
never any sweetness - all struggle, all pain.  Very muddy.  Then, I
started listening to all the books and tapes and videos I'd collected
madly and I started listening to the voices on this list and other
people in my life, and I started cultivating spaciousness and calm.  Now
I have them at hand.  Th emud has settled, and clarity is present.  I
still get stirred up now and then, but it is so much sooner thereafter
that I remember the relaxation that I have found and know is real and
very fine, and I settle into it again.  If I just allow it, clarity
comes.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


VICTOR TORRICO:

"Listen, great being, king of pure presence!  The true teaching of the
absolute meaning cannot be comprehended or shown [through concepts].  It
cannot be defined, it cannot become an object of fixation, it cannot be
thought:  it concerns a nature that transcends thought.  [This nature]
cannot be meditated upon and cannot be the object of thought.  It does
not know desire and does not conceive the idea of having to accept the
fruit [of realization].

Those who abide in this natural non-discursive state reach enlightenment
without embarking on a path; without exercising the mind, they obtain
self-arising wisdom; without striving, they spontaneously achieve the
capacity for spiritual action; without keeping a commitment, they
naturally maintain purity.

[In this state] the senses and their objects manifest as the clarity of
the fundamental condition, Buddhas and sentient beings are no longer
seen as a duality, and everything is preserved as unity in the
fundemental condition.

The fundemental nature knows neither unity nor multiplicity: could the
essence, which has never been born and has never manifested, ever become
the object of definition?

Listen, great being, king of pure presence!  All the Buddhas and
sentient beings, the whole universe and the forms of life inhabiting it,
are my nature, beyond any concept of affirmation or negation.

My nature is one in the fundemental condition, and that which is taught
by the teachers of the three dimensions serves only to lead all beings,
in an indirect manner, to this single reality."

The Supreme Source
Choegyal Namkhai Norbu, Adriano Clemente
Translated from Italian into English by Andrew Lukianowicz
Snow Lion Publications, 1999


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MIRA:

I know Jerry likes Satsang reviews, so how about this?
The other day I was reading our local newspaper, and to my surprise I found
a large article about a satsang lecture given by Francis Lucille in
Amsterdam. Since the article is rather large, and I do not have the time to
translate it entirely, you'll have to settle for a summary.
A scan of the original article is uploaded to the e-groups Nonduality Salon
files.
Mira



The 'who-am-I-business' from spiritual teacher Francis Lucille

SMELL THE PERFUME OF HAPPINESS


The French spiritual teacher Francis Lucille preaches an age old message.
Everything is universal consciousness. The separation between mine and
thine, here and there, this and that, you and I is only an illusion. Because
everything is one. This is the truth, according to him. "When you acquire
this insight, you first smell the perfume of happiness. Subsequently you see
life as beautiful and magical", is what he says.

Last week, Lucille was in the Netherlands to explain the essence of the
'everything is one' principle (non-dualism). Not everyone was able to grasp
this. A middle aged woman comments: "But I am seated here, and you are over
there". Lucille maintains a long silence, thinks, and finally says: "The
idea of yourself as a person with a body is mistaken. A body/mind is only a
receiver, like a mirror. You see people and objects reflected in the mirror,
but the mirror itself is neutral. Thus thoughts that you have are not yours.
They are everywhere and can be received by your body/mind.
According to Lucille you cannot say that these are 'your' thoughts, spoken
by an 'I'. "This doesn't exist", he teaches "hence the idea of an I which is
seated over here and you over there is mistaken. Your body/mind is seated
over there, and mine over here, but not our consciousness, because
consciousness is universal, not personal. Could you say that consciousness
is being 'seated'?"
The people attending Lucille's 'satsang', the Hindu word for gathering,
laugh about the idea of a seated consciousness. Nevertheless various
questions follow, perhaps formulated differently, but they all boil down to
the same thing.
Francis Lucille is a former scientist (physics) and diplomat. He is
reluctant to say anything about himself, because, as he says in consistency
with his message: "My personality doesn't matter".
His satsangs, like last Wednesday in the Amsterdam Iyengar Yogacenter,
attract about twenty to fifty visitors, who pay 15 guilders ($ 7) entrance
fee to listen to Lucille, who advertises himself as 'advaita-teacher'.
Inspite Lucille's efforts to integrate familiar Western religion and points
of view in his explanations, the public fails to understand entirely what
purpose advaita or non-dualism serves. A man asks what he is supposed to do
to reach 'enlightenment' and become a 'self-realised' person like Lucille.
The Frenchman thinks again. He takes his time, and the silence is deafening.
Finally he replies that enlightenment is not something that you have to do
in order to reach it. " ...since there is no you. Self realisation in that
sense doesn't exist, because there is no self. It is the experience - which
is more than just the insight that all is one - that leads up to
enlightenment."
According to Lucille, duality is an illusion, and  "consciousness is not
personal, but impersonal, universal and eternal. The human ego is only an
observed object, not the all perceiving awareness." The questioner nods but
looks lost. He is about to ask another question, but changes his mind.
When Lucille tries to clarify his argument by taking 'loss of fear' as an
example, the public starts to loosen up. Now almost all questions are about
how people can lose their fears. Lucille says: "I am not into the
take-away-the-fear-business, I am into the who-am-I-business. Anxiety
disappears as a result of enlightenment, and is not an objective in itself."
Judging from the enormous amount of follow-up questions on the
anxiety-problem topic, the public doesn't just take this explanation for
granted. After a few more attempts to clarify the same point, Lucille
suddenly folds his hands, takes a small bow and says: "Thank you".
The satsang has ended. Tomorrow he will give a seven day retreat in a more
serious attempt to really clarify the concept of non-dualism and
enlightenment to his students.
"When you see that dualism is a lie, you smell the perfume of happiness, and
subsequently see the whole of life as beautiful and magical".


Written by Onno van 't Klooster
for Het Haarlems Dagblad, 21 July 2000

Translation by Mira

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

GREG:
Luwig Wittgenstein (1889-1951)

I'm pleased to announce an excellent Ludwig Wittgenstein essay on the
Nonduality Salon's Western Philosophers section.  Written by Prof. Doug
Winblad at Vassar College, a Wittgenstein scholar and dear friend of mine,
the essay highlights how the study of this influential and often difficult
philosopher can be used to deconstruct parts of belief systems that are
"bewitched by language" (Wittgenstein's phrase).

As mentioned in the intro, there have been parallels drawn between
Wittgenstein and Nagarjuna, the 2nd Cent. CE author of the Treatise on the
Middle Way (MUlamAdhyamaka KArikA).

The essay is here:
    http://www.nonduality.com/witt.htm

The Western Philosophers' section is here:
    http://www.nonduality.com/western.htm

I must say that Jerry has tried his very best to publicize this section and
make it sexy.  I tried too, in the writing phase.  Sorry if it's not!

--Greg Goode
(Editor, NDS Western Philosophers section)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

JERRY and MIRA's Contribution.

Thank you very much for translating this material and
sending it to Nonduality Salon, Mira. It is an excellent
report. I've included it in today's Nondual Daily Nugget and
have installed it on the Satsang with Everyone page, along
with Michael's report on his visit at Andrew Cohen's book
tour. I should note here that there are other reports, by
Christiana and Chuck, that need to be included too! They
will be.

Nondual Daily Nugget:
http://www.nonduality.com/nugget.htm

Satsang with Everyone:
http://www.nonduality.com/satsang2.htm#9
http://www.nonduality.com/satsang2.htm#10

I remind people of your website, which is one of the most
accessible and well-organized in the nonduality realm!

http://www.mbaartmans.demon.nl/index.html


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

GENE Re: Haggling over names, gender, wisdom

NDS


MELODY:
I have always loved her calling herself  "Old Hag".

We live in a culture in which women in their 40's - 60's
are ashamed to get out if they do not have a body
or a face that either stirs and excites the sexual passions,


RANDY ANDY
Ah but she does!

GENE:
_1) Said Timothy Leary:

"INTELLIGENCE is the ULTIMATE APHRODESIAC"

_2) Human energy pathways may conduct any energy; passion for Being
is identical with passion for procreating, yet these two are
arbitrarily kept separate in human philosophical systems.

The expression of passion for Being may occur as touching, holding,
or even 'rough play', as we see in young animals. This can include
biting, and mock domination and  submission. It is all a natural
expression of the whole Being.

_3) Humans are in deep trouble, due to their stalwart obedience to
external 'standards'. Such sublimation of spontaneous passion for
life, leads directly to compartmentalization/fragmentation of self;
this leads to a forceful casting-about, searching for 'whom to blame'
for the feelings that result from having a scrambled brain. To
compound the agony, more 'standards' are taken on, heaped upon the
previous piles, in an attempt to 'tame' the 'wild beast' which is now
raging, shaking the bars of its criteria-cage; at this point, enter
Thorazine, Prozak, etc.

_4) "There is Only Self". The stripping off of clothes and the
merging of bodies can be a passionately fierce union and affirmation
of what was never really separate. The loss of individual identities
in a cooperative motion is a cleansing of the detritus of the ages,
and a rebirth.

_5) Discover just how beholden you are to 'external standards'.

Ask yourself if the 'search' is not actually a seeking to place
blame, rather than a search for peace.

Peace is easy to 'attain', if resentment and blame are dropped.

Resentment and blame are the fuels which power the search, which is
of course cast in the light of goodness. Dark impulses are relegated
to the shadows, from which they strike unexpectedly.

Humans are designed to 'surf the shockwaves', but we have
(tragically) been conditioned to internalize them and thus to
contract around what is perceived to be 'trauma'. Current standards
of judgement affirm that 'one person can 'do' something to another
person'; this has become the (tort) system of 'justice'. Building a
fat bank-account of resentment has taken the place of true personal
power. The model of the Righteous God Jehovah, smiting wrongdoers
with bolts of (accumulated) lightning, serves as our common
expectation.

An entire race, crippled by connived conditioning, can be expected to
eventually begin eating each-other, starting with the young, the old,
and the helpless. The 'ethics' of this race are of the impulses of
the competitive 'alpha-male', the patriarch, to whom all are by
'destiny', totally beholden. Deviation from the path of obedience to
these standards, results in punishment, banishment, or death. We have
all internalized this sorry mess, from which we hope to recover by
resorting to 'Discovered Truth'. It is no surprise that some of this
truth is found in the archives of the human female.

==Gene Poole==

~~~~

GENE and JERRY in the Nonduality Patch

NDS


JERRY:
Hi Gene,

I see patching as preservation of false self. I see
integrity as legitimate patching. But I don't think it's
possible to know the difference between the two or whether
there is a difference.

GENE:
Glad that you have commented.

There is nothing wrong with patching; the patching mechanism is
automatic, and can only be temporarily turned off by manual
intervention.

From my POV, there is indeed a 'difference', and a very big one. The
integrity of the system itself demands that patching be enabled,
because without that mechanism in place and ready to function,
failure of identity could result in death by misadventure. Judi's
recent comments about SPV come to mind here; his patcher is not
working properly, and he is throwing spizzies as a result.

Integrity is actually translated as immunity; there must be
somewhere, built into the system, a standard or metric which the
current system can refer to as a reference for balance and/or repair.
Luckily, this standard is found in our DNA, which if undamaged, will
always direct proper configuring of not only growing cells (to avoid,
say, cancer) but also to insuring that there is at least a virtual
identity in place. The 'ideal' situation is, of course, that Self is
in charge of the body. But if that is not happening, the 'false self'
is the default 'autopilot'. Where these recent discussions has gone,
is to try to remove from this default autopilot, any screwy
socially-implanted assumptions (memes) which would cause problems.

One can say, and correctly, that Self is really all that is
happening, and that Self is always in charge. This is true, but this
information does not dismiss the search, or the suffering which
drives it.

We would all prefer that from the beginning, our systems would simply
function smoothly on 'automatic'. It is only as a result of a
lifetime of suffering, that one begins to look for 'answers' to those
pesky intrusions.

JERRY:
For example, if I'm writing a book and defend it, am I
retreating to a false self or am I strengthening the
integrity of my work? In either case I'm patching. How is it
possible for anyone to know?

GENE:
I say that one 'knows' only after experiencing the difference between
'mundane' and 'cosmic' awareness. If a person is content as they are,
no problem. It is that darned suffering, which like a red light on
the dashboard, makes one seek repair or upgrade.

Your question posits several 'who' entities, all of whom are
inhabiting or sharing the same body or vehicle. This is actually
quite close to the truth of the matter, IMO. We all are inhabited by
a big squad of provisional or 'virtual' selves, each one of which has
its special purpose. But none of these virtual selves has the power
to actually run the entire show, at all. Every 'false self' is a pale
simulacra, in comparison to Self. And that is okay, as long as the
system remains within certain given parameters of stability.

JERRY:
And what is wrong with a false self? What is wrong with
patching to preserve the integrity of a false, deceived
self? The false self has been issued by Grace, hasn't it?

GENE:
Grace issues every opportunity, including the opportunity to examine
and control manually, what could be automatic. My point has been that
we are actually NOT subject to 'external authority', no matter how
deeply we may feel otherwise. We are free to attempt anything we
desire. It is apparent that people desire the wildest and most
unlikely things, including the 'transcendence' of our built-in,
perfectly fine autonavigator. Perhaps this is because it is quite
common for the Navigational Computer (NavCom) to become corrupted due
to memetic contagion.

JERRY:
In any case, what is required is attention to the very core
of these possibilities: the false self, the integrated self,
the enlightened self, the no-self, and attention itself.
When all that is said and done, and it must be said and
done, you still have someone writing a book or an email ...
and patching!

GENE:
Yes, indeed. Well-said. Very true!

My writing here has been to attempt to share my own findings in
system repair and reconfiguration. This in itself should not imply
that there is really anything wrong, merely that it is the impression
that something is wrong, which starts a search, which on its way,
scavenges info from everything from Apollonianism to Zoroastrianism.
It is assumed that the search ends somewhere, with a 'master fix'
accomplished, and and then happily ever after. This seems not to be
the case, ever, for anyone, however.

JERRY:
The bottom line is to put attention in the right place, and
your writing assures that attention won't miss the things --
like false self -- that like to hide from attention. Thank
you for your ongoing surgical-like effort.


GENE:
Yes. You are most welcome, O Fearless Leader!

As I live and breath, I see more and more, what are the products of
my conditioning. This would probably not be possible, if I were to be
ashamed of my intellect, or to try to follow the myriad formulae
which are propagated for the relief of a suffering humanity. I am an
anarchist, eclectic, and very choosy about what I entertain as
possible 'truth'. I have decided to do things my own way, and really,
I have no way. I just carry that blank check in my pocket, and live
by Grace, and for doing so, it seems that I am richly rewarded.

The void (of form) is open to all forms, including 'false selves' and
every possible human dysfunction. Such things seem to arise, but each
is quite temporary; they fade away, leaving only space. And I am that
space; I am awareness 'itself', as squeezed through Gene's
cake-decorating nozzle. I am pleased to be able to share, inform, and
entertain. It is my pleasure.

Sticky with frosting,

==Gene Poole==


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
READINGS-

MARK:
If I may, I would like to share a brief excerpt from Pir Vilayat Inayat
Khan's book Awakening (Jeremy P. Tarcher/Putnam publishers, 1999)...

     How does on go about gaining insight into the deepest levels of
reality?  First, by dropping the biases of ordinary thinking that
obscure the interconnection with the Universe.  Bistami, a dervish who
lived in the mountains for forty years, said, "God fools you in the
markets of this world.  Now when you see His effigies, they are just
devices.  The reality is hidden behind them."  He goes on to say, "The
Bridegroom doesn't have to suffice himself with the veil of the bride."
Stripped of the veil of the illusory, ephemeral traces of everyday
experience, our minds may gradually, in infinite regress, begin to
perceive remote glimmers of the thinking of the Universe.  Ultimately,
we may reach a stage in our meditations where we discover a direct
intuition of meaningfulness unmediated by physical phenomena.  Hazrat
Inayat Khan says that when intelligence is confronted with an object it
becomes consciousness, and when it is voided of any content, it returns
to its ground, which is intelligence.
     Attainment of this "spiritual intelligence" is the ultimate
realization of mystics.  Sufis call this state of consciousness Jabarut,
the ground out of which consiousness emerges.  For as ordinary
consciousness is gradually freed from the perspectives of everyday
existence - thoughts, ideas, circumstances, emotions, physical events -
the transcendent dimension begines to emerge.  What do we mean by
transcendence?  Take, for example, an apple tree in blossom.  Though
your glance takes in its trunk, brances, leaves, and flowers, you are
also moved by its beauty and loveliness.  And while the beauty of this
tree depends on its physical form, still, it has an essential reality of
its own which is its meaningfulness.  Or, take music, behind the notes
are an array of vibrational frequencies that could be said to constitute
the language of the thinking of the Universe.  Likewise, it is the
meaning - not the letters - that shine through the words of a book or
text.  So the mind, stripped of the distraction of transient thoughts,
is infused with an inborn sense of meaningfulness.  This transcendent
faculty appears only when one has given up trying to sort things out in
an habitual fashion.
      Once while on retreat in the Alps, I had just such a breakthrough
experience - one that was dramatically reflected in the weather and
surrounding landscape.  After a stormy night in the mountains,
precariously sheltered beneath the roof of a shepherd's shed, I observed
the dark clouds and heard the thunderclaps gradually receding into the
distance, swept away by a raging wind.  As if in sympathetic resonance,
my consciousness began to melt away, scattering into an infinite,
edgeless Universe.  Vanishing along with the storm were my concept about
the world, the Cosmos, my personal circumstances, unresolved problems,
values, appropriate or inappropriate actions - even my teachings about
the Divine Qualities, the meaningfulness of life, egos, bodiness, the
psyche.  Suddenly, all these thoughts seemed so futile, worthless, and
misleading!
     Rather than floundering in a "dark night" of negativity brought on
by the collapse of these mental structures, however, I clung to the very
meaningfulness that had just shattered my commonplace thinking.  It was
the consummate quantum leap; it brought  vividly alive the last words
spoken by my father, Hazrat Inayat Khan, on his deathbed: "When the
unreality of life strikes my heart, its reality is revealed to me."  All
my life, I thought to myself, I have prided myself on what I thought
were valid theories about the Universe - unmasking the hoax of
superstitions, dogmas, and conditioned responses to life.  But, instead
of dismissing all these constructs, I realized that they had acted as
stepping-stones that led me to this ultimate breakthrough. Even though I
now had no more use for them, they remained there for my use, like a
ladder propped against a wall, while "I" became immersed in the sublime,
wordless state of unity beyond life - existence inveiled into eternity.

Love, Mark

~~~~

DAVID HODGES:

I'm reading Ramesh Balsekar's "Pointers from Nisargadatta Maharaj", and I
have come across the following exchange (p.33):

"Visitor: What then is prayer, and what is its purpose?"

"Maharaj: Prayer, as it is generally understood, is nothing but begging for
something. Actually, prayer means communion-uniting-yoga."

This is an interesting response. Does anyone have any comments on it?

My take is as follows:
It seems to hinge on Nisargadatta's definition of yoga, which is not given.
Georg Feuerstein's book "The Yoga Tradition: Its History, Literature,
Philosophy, and Practice" gives a survey of meanings of the word yoga, from
the literal "union" to the following from the 8th Century Yoga-Bhasya's
"Yoga is ecstasy" (the word ecstasy being a translation of the word
samadhi. Feuerstein goes on to say that samadhi "is both the technique of
unifying consciousness and the resulting state of ecstatic union with the
object of contemplation."

Therefore Nisargatta is setting up a progression. I think "communion" is
what is done when one feels oneself to be separate from Self and seeks
unity with it.  "Union" can be considered to be the NonDual realization.
So from this I get the following: Prayer is both the technique and the
resulting realization of NonDuality. Before realization, prayer is the
self-inquiry, the communion with Self, the turning of attention inward
towards I AM. In realization, there is the uniting. After realization,
prayer is yoga, samadhi, simply what is, simply Reality.

Any other responses?
David

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MARY's top 25

HI Gang,

I cant' believe how you have affected my dear friend Mary... So innocent
once. So beautiful, so nice...

and now:

HI Mark,
Here's some more titles for judy or whoever else you want to offend:

   The Top 25 Country and Western Songs of all time

     25. Get Your Tongue Outta My Mouth 'Cause I'm Kissing You
          Good-bye.

     24. Her Teeth Were Stained, But Her Heart Was Pure.

     23. How Can I Miss You If You Won't Go Away?

     22. I Don't Know Whether To Kill Myself Or Go Bowling

     21. I Just Bought A Car From A Guy Who Stole My Girl, But
          The Car Don't Run, So I Figure We Got An Even  Deal.

     20. I Keep Forgettin' I Forgot About You.

     19. I Liked You Better Before I Knew You So Well.

     18  I Still Miss You, Baby, But My Aim's Gettin' Better.

     17. I Wouldn't Take Her To A Dog Fight, Cause I'm Afraid She'd Win.

     16. I'll Marry You Tomorrow, But Let's Honeymoon Tonight.

     15. I'm So Miserable Without You, It's Like Having You Here.

     14. I've Got Tears In My Ears From Lyin' On My Back and Cryin' Over
          You.

     13. If I Can't Be Number One In Your Life, Then Number Two On You.

     12. If I Had Shot You When I Wanted To, I'd Be Out By Now.

     11. Mama Get A Hammer (There's A Fly On Papa's Head).

     10. My Head Hurts, My Feet Stink, And I Don't Love You.

       9.  My Wife Ran Off With My Best Friend, And I Sure Do Miss Him.

       8.  Please Bypass This Heart.

       7.  She Got The Ring --- I Got The Finger.

       6.  You Done Tore Out My Heart And Stomped That Sucker Flat.

       5.  You're The Reason Our Kids Are So Ugly.

       4.  If the Phone Don't Ring, You'll Know It's Me.

       3.  She's Actin' Single and I'm Drinkin' Doubles

       2.  She's Looking Better After Every Beer.

      And the Number 1 Country and Western song of all Time is:

   1.  I Haven't Gone To Bed With Any Ugly Women But I've
       Sure Woke Up With A Few.

Let's face it, this list has ruined my life... (but I don't mind...)

Love, Mark

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STUPIDITY

MICHAEL:
I thank God for my stupidity! Without it I wouldn't have learned
the value of wisdom.

----------------------------------
Burned in the fire of living
I gave myself to my lover.
Do you know who did this to you?
My lover asked.
Only You I replied, only You.
-----------------------------

Andrew Cohen is on a mission. Make no doubt aboout it. His cause
is to battle the diabolical ego and to conquer it. His cause is
to further the evolution of mankind. His cause is to promote the
truth of his five tenants that he boldly calls laws.

Read his website. He relates visiting many other teachers. Each
meeting carries the nearly same theme. AC meets teacher, has a good
time, gets hugs and respect, is told that he is crazy and confused,
AC points out some flaw(s) of the teacher (to the reader), AC departs
amid feelings of respect. AC has once again confirmed that AC's
teaching is more correct than other's.

Boy and Girls, friends and lovers, how many times will games like
this play out? Heeheehee!

Make no mistake, I do not hate Andrew Cohen, nor do I pity him. I
love him. IT is the game of the True Self. When and if the time
is right he will drop (have dropped for him by Grace) the last veils
of clinging and become free.

Andrew is living out the example of the righteous man who has a
cause.
Wonderful wonderful. :-))
----------------------
Pain: ( from a Sufi story)

Put a handful of salt in a glass of water. Now drink!
Is it not bitter?
Put a handful of water in a lake. Now drink!
Is it not still sweet?

Give your pain to the vast I AM.
Life is sweet.


MELODY COUNTERS:


>AC points out some flaw(s) of the teacher (to the reader), AC
>departs amid feelings of respect. AC has once again confirmed that AC's
>teaching is more correct than other's.
>
>Boy and Girls, friends and lovers, how many times will games like
>this play out? Heeheehee!
>

Counting this time here?  Hmmmm...

MICHAEL:
Bloodied but unbowed, the seeker takes the 8 count
and valiantly staggers back to the center of the ring, shouting
"All right, God, that was a good one! Whatcha gonna do now?
Beat all of the idealism out me? C'mon, you bastard!
I can take it!"

With a lightening left followed by a powerhouse right, God
lands the old one/two punch and the seeker is knocked into Reality!

The crowd goes wild!

MELODY:
I would guess.......as long as it takes
one to know One.

Or is it:  'it takes one to no one' ?

Good night, Gracie,

MICAEL:
Thanks for all of the inspiration you have given, Melody.
I love you. The world is a better place with folks like you
in it!

HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!

Peace - at play in the fields of the Lord - Michael

MELODY ANDERSON

This reminds me of something a friend used to say years
ago:

"Fighting for God is like fucking for chastity."

He used to say it to show that fighting for one's spiritual
beliefs was 'wrong'.

And I would say: aaah, let them get it out of their system.
:-)

*****

Life sure is somethin' !

And nothing at all.

Here's to It.

_________________________________________________________________________

MICHAEL READ

SEEKER BEWARE

What do you seek
Oh lonely one?
Only Truth
I replied.

Ah, I thought you loved only ME;
I see it is Truth that you love instead.

I'm sorry, but what can I do?
I must know the Answer
So please, please, please show me
I am ready
I beg You
Why, oh why, oh why is there anything at all?

Oh, Child you are not ready,
But you are ready enough!
Knowing that you will be destroyed,
You are ready enough.

See, It is THIS!

Ahhhhhhhhhhum!

*****

I hold no beliefs. Have you lived this lifetime? I used to
think that I had a life until Grace burned me up. Now I am
enveloped in life. I did not know who I was until Grace
consumed me. There is not really a creature called Michael
Read. Only an abiding Presence.

*****

GLORIA LEE

Ahhhhh, if you could but once see those eyes.... Of all the
people met at the retreat, Michael was the one surprised me
the most, the one least like what I expected from his
posts. Perhaps he laughs most quietly to himself, but
ridicule is not in that laughter. There is no teensy even
hint of smug superiority, no judgement "against" others.
His eyes have a clear, steady gaze...infinity like the
sky... he looks kindly on our efforts and failures too..he
knows Grace is all.

Perhaps once again..email is a medium that cannot convey
essence quite so easily as presence.

__________________________________________________________________

DAN BERKOW

I am zero.
Therefore, I
   am where something
   becomes nothing,
   and nothing becomes
   something, yet
   I am not something
   or nothing.

   Without me, there is
   neither nothing or
   something.

Being zero,
   I have no identity,
   yet am always who I am.

The universe arises from me,
   yet I possess nothing.

I have no function, yet
   without me is nothing done.

Zero =


Infinity.

1=0, 2=0, etc.

Exactly where something becomes
   nothing, and nothing becomes
   something, there is no
   controversy, nothing to
   see, just infinity.

*****


theories in physics can be intriguing, including things
like discrete parallel universes, the effect of the future
on the present, the nonseparation of apparent particles,
and that black holes in one universe are white holes in
another.

First hand we know this: Energy is streaming constantly.
There is constant "going in and coming out," or "going out
and coming in", whether you name this "black holes and
white holes ("wholes" ;-)) or whatever. All of this form
"sitting on" infinite flux. We construct a seemingly stable
reality that isn't. We formulate a body that lives and
dies, a sense of time involving memory and projection, and
language that uses definitions provided by thought and
society. Meanwhile, the quantum foam is bubbling all around
and through.

To say this is "undefinable" falsely implies that the
construct "definability" has a meaning ;-)

We are the Cheshire Cat.

________________________________________________________________

JERRY

Rajneesh/Osho says prayer "is a communion between you and
the whole." And he says that "prayer is still a meeting so
ultimately it also has to be transcended." ... "This
requires the subtlest awareness possible. If you can be
aware of the meeting between you and whole, then you
transcend yourself and the whole, both. Then you are the
whole. And in this whole, there is no duality..."

You, Rajneesh, and Nisargadatta seem to be on the same
track.

At the risk of mixing levels of discussion, here's a little
story regarding prayer, I've come across a naturally
nondual woman. She is a schizophrenic functioning fairly
well on her own with medication, and she is naturally a
selfless person. When she revealed that she prays for the
well-being of her friends and loved ones every night, she
was asked whether she prays for herself. She looked
surprised, and responded as though she had never thought of
the concept and embarrasingly said, "No, I never thought of
that." She replied not as someone who came to the
realization that there is no one to pray for, but as
someone who naturally never thought there was any self to
pray for. She was startled at the suggestion. This is a
woman who is always delightful, smiling, laughing and a
giver of energy.

____________________________________________________________________________

MARK OTTER

Every night, just after laying my head on the pillow, I
pray a short prayer, which often goes like this: "Thank you
Lord, for letting me be alive today. May all beings come
home to You in love, joy and peace." I think that this
prayer is slowly changing and will do so consciously now
thanks to your illumination. Pema Chodron talks about ego
as a room that is just right, just the right temperature,
just the right smells, just the right music, just the way
you like it, but it would be hard to find a room mate who
likes it as much as you do, and you spend more and more
time in there, so that if you could have food and clothing
and everything else delivered, you would, but you can't so
you go outside now and then to get food, but it's maybe a
bit jarring to be outside, so when you get back to your
room, perhaps you make sure the windows are shut and even
stuff towels under the door to keep those odors away, and
this makes you lonely and after awhile you realize how
badly you are suffering and you begin to look for ways to
ease this suffering, so maybe you crack the window just a
bit to let in a fresh breeze, and she concludes by
suggesting that as you see the importance of this
reconnection to the world, that you eventually open the
doors wide open and invite all sentient beings inside. I
think this is happening to my prayer. So, it may eventually
become not a request to an all knowing, kind God, but a
statement of my own personal intent. " Thank you, Mark for
being alive today. May all beings come home in love, joy
and peace." Opening that door to all sentient beings is the
union we desire. We control the door. We must welcome We
in. I think that is prayer. What happens after all sentient
beings have come inside? PARTY!!!!!! (with ponies if you
like, and proud free stallions as well. Everything and
everybody) (When all sentient beings come in, before the
PARTY, group hug.)

__________________________________________________________________________


HARSHA AND XAN

The following dialogue took place last year. Thought I
should post it again.

Love to all

Harsha

Xan: Everything here is relationship. That's what duality
means. "Relationship" has come to connotate the
intimate-man-woman-thing. If you decided to reject and
refuse relationships then you would stop eating food,
enjoying the view or even breathing air.

Harsha: Well stated. But there is no need to limit the
notion of "relationships" only to external perceptions such
as men, women, food, things, views, etc. Relationships
exist also in states where the perceptions are "internal"
(such as sleep or even Savikalpa Samadhis). The foundation
of all relationships is built on perceptions whether they
are external (men, women, animals, things, etc.) or
internal (dreaming about men, women, animal, things, etc,.
or having various kinds of visions in the superconscious
states of angels, heavenly objects, celestial regions,
etc.). It makes no difference whether the perceptions are
external or internal, the perceiver is in relationship with
the perceptions. Duality ends when the Perceiver and
Perceived (Seer and the Seen) merge. Mystics like Kabir and
Jnaneshwar have written beautiful poetry to describe this
"Unity."

Xan: Would you consider that the phenomenon of relationship
is not hell but opposition is? When there is consciousness
in wholeness what is there to oppose? If I am opposing
anything I short-out my experience of wholeness.

Harsha: Why can't one oppose a relationship and maintain
Wholeness. Sometimes, it is wise to walk away from a
relationship with a situation or a person. Let us say
someone who knows Karate is feeling angry with Ted. It
would be wise for Ted to make a run for it while
maintaining perfect wholeness and integrity.

_______________________________________________________________________

XAN

What's funny is the tragedy of taking ourselves seriously
... and each other. I mean, who cares about our pet peeves
and dramas? Seriously. Who is it that cares? Not negating
compassion, of course, but I've never noticed Eternity
getting bothered by any of our nonsense.

_____________________________________________________________________________


We are the Nonduality Generation.
http://www.nonduality.com

DENNIS WAITE

I have been a 'seeker' for the past 30 years or so and have
graduated to the Direct Path school of Advaita practised by
current teachers such as Francis Lucille, Ramesh Balsekar
and Wayne Liquorman. I recently attended a talk by Wayne
and am reading his superb book 'Acceptance of what IS'. I
am currently considering his uncompromising views on the
notions of seekers, paths and reincarnation etc.

The traditional view hammered into me in my early to middle
years, by the School of Economic Science (which purports to
be following Sankara), is that we live very many lives
before being blessed with a human form, in which we have
the unique capability to realise our true nature. We may
have to be re-born many times before we even start to think
of this potential, let alone beginning to pursue it. The
metaphor I used to like to help understand this concept of
reincarnation involves the sun's reflection in a mirror. It
is used by Swami Parthasarathy in his lectures on the Gita.

The sun is the real Self. The glass in the mirror is our
particular nature (Vasanas and subtle aspects of
mind/intellect). The frame of the mirror is our body. Now,
if you remove the glass from the frame, the reflection of
the sun in that framed mirror disappears (the body dies).
If you insert the glass into a new frame, the reflection
re-appears in the new mirror (a new body is born with the
continuing Vasanas). The Sun throughout all of this is, of
course, totally unaffected.

With Direct Path, there is none of this pandering to the
ego, which thinks it wants to become enlightened and likes
to believe it is making some progress towards this end.
There is no path, nor a seeker who could ever become
enlightened. Since we cannot 'do' anything anyway, there is
no free will and everything that happens from birth to
death is beyond our control, laid out in a frozen instant
of eternal present (if we could stand outside of time and
space to view it).

On the death of this body-mind, thoughts and memories
return to the pool of Consciousness to be picked up
possibly in the future by some equally deceived individual
who might then claim that he was this other person in a
previous life.

I was drawn to the simple metaphor of Ramesh, of each of us
as a sandcastle. At the end of our life, God squashes this
with the glee of a child and everything becomes once again
the formless sand that it always was. This is easy for us
to appreciate with our feeble intellect but where does it
leave that traditional model of the aspirant making slow
but steady progress over many lifetimes?

Any observations welcome!

*****

MARK OTTER

I think it makes it universal. That is, the glass is not
"Mark's glass" or "Dennis' glass", but the human race's
glass (even sentient being's glass?). The frame is Mark's
or Dennis', but it serves the pool of glass. This makes
sense in the context of so many tradition's notions that if
Dennis becomes enlightened, it is not just a good thing for
Dennis, but for all sentient beings. There is just the one
sentient being. It also enables one to make sense of the
widespread nature of past life experiences of such
luminaries as Cleopatra. Some say that if there are two or
more claiming to be the reincarnation of Cleopatra, at
least one of them must be lying. I don't see this. We all
can dip into the archetypal pool. I feel when I release
some sorrow or anger that it is no longer entirely
personal. I sure have personal story lines, but they often
blur and become universal. Those are the really cathartic
moments.

I was once reprimanded on another list for suggesting we
forgive Hitler without feeling the pain of his victims. But
that's not true. Of course I have felt the pain. It is
through feeling the pain that the energy of forgiveness can
arise. I probably will get nailed for saying this, but I
have felt the pain of the holocaust. I can only dip in and
take a little at a time, but I have done that and I know
this sacred duty of releasing the crystallized energies. We
can do this, and we must do this to set ourselves free. We
are the energies that we have crystallized. When we get
close to being done with freeing our own personal
story-related pain, we realize that all the pain that is
coagulated around the planet needs to be freed as well. The
Bodhissatva vow is not a trivial undertaking. How much is
any one human being's fair share? That is up to them to
decide. (Well, up to the director of their personal movie,
I suppose. Can we wake up to direct directorship? Only by
accepting some of that universal pain, I believe.) I dunno,
am I mad, or does this make sense?

*****

DAN BERKOW

Dennis, Yes, what you say rings true.

And what you say reminds me of this: Here comes the
dropping of any philosophy and any description of Truth.

Mind seems endlessly framing in terms of "either/or":
either there is free will or not. either this text/teacher
said it right, or that one did. either there is a doer or
no doer exists. either use this metaphor, which is
inaccurate, or this other metaphor, which works better.

The dropping of mind is the dropping of "either/or", the
dropping of any framing of reality in any terms.

Then, say what you want.

(Which of course, you have and I have).

*****

GREG GOODE

The direct path (a phrase coined by Jean Klein's teacher
Krishna Menon) does not offer a better picture to displace
or replace the previously held picture from the progressive
path. It doesn't invalidate or pooh-pooh the progressive
path. Direct-path teachings don't say "This is true and
that isn't," instead they gently and organically account
for and incorporate the progressive-path teachings by
gently dislodging attachments to pictures and other
elements of the progressive-path teachings.

This is a verbally cluttered way of saying what Dan-ji said
by saying "it's not either-or."

__________________________________________________________________

JODY

http://www.users.fast.net/~szimhart/jsbook3.htm#tarlo

Culled from the above link:

"Releasing the Unspeakable Glory of the Absolute."

Right away the alarm bells go off. Why? Because while the
Absolute Itself is unspeakable, it is not glorious. Glory
is a quality, and the Absolute has none.

It is this type of language that leads to the expectations
that hinder the recognition of Self-realization. If one
*expects* the Absolute to be "glorious", one will not
realize the Self, as the expectation of glory will block
the recognition from occurring.

Another culling:

"The illusion to be entertained is that the guru as Andrew
Cohen, son of Luna (or name any enlightened one) is not who
the devotee worships; it is the Absolute Self that has
seized Andrew's being that is being worshipped. Meanwhile,
little Andrew enjoys the entitlements without taking
responsibility-- it is the big Absolute that makes the
demands."

The Absolute does not have any cares about being
worshipped, and It never makes any "demands" at all.

If a person demands worship, that person has his/her head
up their ass, whether or not they are realized/enlightened.
I don't care if they live in the streets or are regarded as
avatars. The Self has *no* expectations and makes *no*
demands. These *always* arise from the personality, and are
indicative of a narcissistic character disorder much more
than any real understanding or wisdom.

_____________________________________________________________________

MICHAEL READ AND DAVE (MANCHINE)

MICHAEL: Thanks for the book review, (Nora). I probably
will not read it myself. I do sincerely hope that you are
right and Andrew Cohen's mother finds some release from her
pain and confusion.

At the risk of being blasted, I'll only offer one more
observation of AC. He is a sincere person who appears to
want to help. Listening to him talk these words were not
heard Love, Grace, Peace, Joy - these words were heard ego,
must, have to, laws, me, mine, mine, mine .... and this is
the only way to do it.

DAVE: What a complicated issue Michael. No blasting here,
first off. There does seem to be that sense that he wants
to help, and maybe that's part of the problem. Helping is
helping for those that want it. It's true, there's a lot of
people that have interest, and one can't help but feel as
though these people would like help. Then there's the
compounded problem of the fact that help means
transitioning through destruction... which people tend to
resist, so it's hard to decide where to draw the line. "Let
Grace decide", seems to be the best answer, and in such a
case, one would introduce the subject to as many people as
possible and then let them decide what to do. Maybe you,
like me, had "relatively easy" transitions, taking our time
until the moment(s) came, others not so easy, fighting and
kicking all the way.

I guess AC decides that if the people keep coming back, he
figures it's best that someone lay it on the line. I'm not
sure how he "got it". But in my case, I tend to want to
help people make it the easier way. So what I might do is
different from what AC does, and what you do is different
from what I do.

MICHAEL: From here this is what I see. Only a 'for what
it's worth' do I offer this. Remember, I am and always will
be just another poor shmuck getting along as best I can.
:-)

When I asked the Great I 'Know not What' what IT was I was
asking for confirmation of my personal truths. I never got
an answer!

When by Grace and Grace alone I just asked What IS? The
answer destroyed me. :-) Not only did the revealation come
that everything I knew was ashes, everything I could figure
out was dust! :-)

The illusion of existance is the gift of Grace.

Is there a way to get There? Is there a magic formula that
reveals all? Is there a meditaion that is above all
meditations? I there a master above all masters? Is there a
rhyme or reason above all reason? Is there a gigantic
fellow on a golden throne who controls our lives?

HA! Throw all those questions away! You'll never figure IT
out!

DAVE: If you think you've got it figured out, then you're
as far as you're going to go. When I first saw I AM, way
too many years ago, I couldn't imagine anything more than
that... one of the big obtacles... then I saw another and
another and another thing... it's like Love. You have one
child and can't imagine loving another as much, then comes
another and another and you love them each as much.

You're ego crumbles, what a revelation! When it really
happens, I AM becomes something totally different, another
transcendance.

Now, as long as the Walmart guy is around somewhere, it's
time to go to another level, with what one learns dealing
with people that want to know about this stuff. Geez, we're
just being born again. When will it ever end?.... When it
begins?

MICHAEL: All Michael can say is this: ask Grace for Grace
and she will give! :-)))))

(uh, these words are not 'for' Nora. I just jumped on the
old soapbox again! Please, excuse me.)

DAVE: How many lbs. of consciousness can this soapbox
handle? What weighs more, empty consciousnes or full
consciousness?

MICHAEL: Thanks again, Nora. Your pure heart is a treasure
beyond measure!

HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!

Peace - Michael

__________________________________________________________________________

TIM HARRIS (from I AM list)

Seeds ...

Grace is knowing that mercy need never be begged for... it
is given.

Wisdom is knowing grace is tolerance with the 'will to
curb' the wild spirits (be like water; highest good is like
water)and not continually provide unwanted corrections that
lead away from the purpose(s) of completion. Get out of
their way with your foolishness! Less interference makes
their life go faster and forges 'more important paths'
other than the 'style' in-which one mows the lawn, chops
wood, or carries water... get it? Find 'ways' to get out of
peoples 'way'...

You know you have found the 'entrance to sacred way' when
half of the world thinks you are a crazy zealot/martyr and
the other half of the world thinks you are
clinically/diabolically insane. LOL!!! From here, it is
easy! It becomes a simple matter of trying to 'make sense'
before one side kills you or the other side locks you up.

What did you expect? Of course 'the sacred way' is unlike
anything 'you' would be willing to 'believe'. That is why
it 'still' evades you. Faith is only the key. Belief is the
lock that keeps you from full realization, actualization,
enlightenment, whatever. One must design a larger key
(knowledge) or a smaller lock (wisdom)(or is it the 'other'
way around?... :o)) or see only 'what is' in a 'moment'
that never moves (here/now is 'no matter' where, when or
who you think you are) but is always changing.

Just as the 'surfer' knows his 'own wave', so too does the
'wise' know his 'own change'.

Mercy is given only to those who know and recognize that
they have been already given a way out. The question is
then whether or not they are 'wise enough' to know that
'mercy given' is the path that leads to the source of
ego... what one chooses to do from there is paramount.

Is it that I have set you free of your debt to me, only to
see you entrap my friend in his own debt?

The master sets the conditions and the direction of the
'force' (will) then waits patiently for the 'wind to
arrive'. This is the root of 'no-action' as it is 'done'
and is not 'to be done'. 'Readiness' is the sharpest
'state' of mind.

Mercy, like 'readiness', is a sword that is not given to
the unjust although they often find it in thier hands. Why
then are we instructed that we must all 'get in line'?...
to perpetuate one, easy cut is what I am told.

If one sets the 'mind' at rest it does not mean 'put it to
sleep'... the mind at rest is a still sword in a state of
'absolute readiness' or 'absolute open focus'.

The aim of meditation is to find a peaceful, clear mind in
which to live one's life.

A 'wise trap' sets it's 'self' and waits for the fools that
'seek' and those that 'wander aimlessly'. The trap is for
these as those that 'know better' already have their fill
of scars as they have walked the same paths many times.

As far as 'time' is concerned, we all live the same
duration of life. Beginning to end.

You can not curse the earth for the 'minds and selfish
wills' of petty men.

Good -- by nature Kind -- by spirit Gentle -- by correction
Truth -- by resolve

'This' exists as 'I exist'. Without existence, there is no
knowing. Without knowing, there is no existence. Thus, if I
cease to exist and 'know not' of it, do I exist as 'this'
exists or am I just being ignored?

A cup sits on a table half full of water. The cup is tipped
and spills its contents. Hmmm... cup is still whole to it's
self, water is still whole to it's self... nothing happened
but change which ceased at the end of the 'motion'.

Am I still I AM without these things? For, is it not the
'possesion' of these things that make me I AM? Without
knowledge, without wisdom, without intellect, without
consciousness am I still I AM? Do these things make
themselves into I AM and I am merely a 'who' of I AM? Or is
it that I do not posses these things 'That I AM?'
____________________________________________________________________

...meditate and have no thought. Let the mind rest quietly
on the Self in the cave of the Spiritual Heart.

--Ramana Maharshi

_____________________________________________________________________


We are the Nonduality Generation.
http://www.nonduality.com

GENE POOLE

Reinranting still, again

How does one reincarnate in timelessness? For that matter,
how does one incarnate in timelessness?

Conventional identity, that old pattern, is what stands in
place of what is always already 'here'.

It is conventional for conventional identity to ask about
identity other than conventional identity.

In that old pattern of convention, identity classifies
information according to broad classes or categories. The
broadest of these classes is 'time'. Naturally,
conventional identity shelves gathered data (memory) in
bins labeled 'past, present' and future'. I say 'naturally'
because it seems quite natural to 'have a past' and to
'have a future', so much so that people are fond of saying
"there is only 'now'".

For conventional identity, 'now' is a difference which
arises only in comparison to past and future. For the
timeless, there is no 'now'; for the timeless, the
information which is labeled by conventional identity
categorically as 'past, present, and future', still exists
as information, but is labeled differently.

'Simultaneous' is also a time-based contrast, but comes
close to timelessness, closer to timelessness than a model
of reality which is a linear progression of interdependent
events, labeled as past, present, and future. Inevitable
simultaneity, or better, unstoppable simultaneity, certain
simultaneity, or a description of events as all the same
event, is even better.

All events are the same event, thus there are no separate
events; with no separate events, there is no difference;
thus, 'nothing ever happens'.

Consider conventional ideas about reincarnation in light of
simultaneity. In this model, there is not a linear
progression of lives, but instead, a present and permanent
current bloom of all of what is. In this model, all lives
occur simultaneously. The question is then, why do we
insist on having one life at a time? If there is doubt that
we insist on having one life at a time, look at the current
state of assumption concerning identity; many individual
synthetic identities long to merge, but are incompatible,
kept separate by the divide of language.

The answer to this question is this; conventional identity
is 'mine', and I am separate from all other lives. I am
self and not other. I am me and you are you; I know things
and do things which you do not know and do not do. I am a
unique individual; I was born and I will die, and in the
meantime, all of you others are a royal pain in the ass. I
am dependent upon you to give me monetary rewards for
accomplishing tasks which I would rather not do, but do for
the money. I depend upon you to validate my 'humanness', to
have empathy for me, to respect me, and to communicate with
me. These are all expectations of conventional identity,
and woven into these expectations is the classification of
time as past, present, and future. Perhaps it could be
said, that it is human awareness of time, and the ability
to classify time, and to classify information according to
time, which has convinced us that we have a sort of mastery
of ourselves, and by extension, of the universe in which we
live. Is one willing to give all of this up, simply to know
timelessness?

Conventional identity is very allergic to timelessness; in
fact, a prolonged exposure to timelessness will inevitably
produce the effect of 'anaphylaxis', to a fatal degree,
leaving nothing of conventional identity, but the (non
time-based) classified information of 'what is'; with the
expiration of the librarian, the books remain. Timeless is
not mortal, being outside of time, being undeceived by
convention, and not entertaining expectation of time or its
products. It is all here right now, not to be found later,
and not to be missed; it is also nowhere, because now, only
what is happening is happening, a constant mutation, and
the danger is to track the changes on the basis of time,
rather than intention.

One may use the phrase 'sentient Being' to refer to
timeless awareness, aware of beginningless (not even a
word!) and endless, non-time based perception, as being
that which is the stage upon which what is, is happening, a
continual blooming of one thing, and it is awareness itself
which is the organic substrate in which all of this blooms,
and it is the bloom. How dare we focus on one petal, when
there is this incredible flower to consider and to
appreciate?

Awareness speaks simply as what is, yet, conventional
identity invents and uses language to go 'what is' one
better, lying continually about time, and suffering the
torments of self-castration, as it uses language to
delineate, limit, and then falsely 'explain' what is
happening, all the while having to speak very loudly in
order to drown out the incredible, total-bandwidth
expression of what is, as the shout, whisper, and silence
of awareness itself. Awareness naturally organizes its
products as its own expression, yet conventional identity
defines the apparent universe as partly alive and partly
nonliving and partly dead, all according to time. Ideas
about reincarnation emanate from the assumption of time,
and from nowhere else. Those ideas are nothing but the
naturally secreted glue which holds the barnacle to the
rock against the violence of the pounding tides; it is the
nature of the barnacle to do this, to cope with predictable
events, to insure survival.

Of course, free-swimming fish do not suffer from the needs
of the barnacle; they have entirely different mechanisms
for coping, and survive glueless, riding the tides, moving
with the currents. This is how timeless Being considers
human dilemma of time-bound consciousness; conventional
identity secures to 'stationary objects' and needs more
than anything, to have at least one 'real thing' by which
to 'know the reality of all other things'. For many humans,
this 'one real thing' is called 'God'; God is considered to
be the one reality, all other being transient or even
illusory. Upon this rock of certainty is thus built
language, which like a superb net, ensconces not only the
fish upon which it is cast, but also the unwitting
fisherman who casts it. Caught in his own net, he is
limited by its confines; yes, he has fish to eat, but he is
in the position of the barnacle, stuck in the 'present' and
able only to fantasize other times and spaces. Like a dunce
facing the corner, he delimits his reality with force when
deemed necessary, scourging all non-barnacle genes from the
pool, and keeping pure the language-bound, time-bound
vision.

Speaking of God, if we understand God, we know that God
neither exists nor non-exists; as the model of timeless
awareness, as the One True Self, God is the foundation upon
which all barnacles are glued, and is the tides which
batter them, and the fish which eat them, and the ocean in
which the fish swim, netted by the self-netting fishermen,
those deaf and blind tool-users, who habitually cut
themselves into bait which attracts calamity, trolling as
they do for the 'big catch' of understanding, trapped of
course in their own sacred limiting-words. The Urth is
flat; stay with the conventional identity, for over the
edge, is the void, inhabited by unimaginable monsters,
which of course are purely imaginary.

Conventional identity is incarnate, and certainly
reincarnates; of this there is no doubt. It takes great
pains, quite literally, to replicate itself, and to
enshrine itself in temples defined as timeless. Like the
pyramids of Egypt, conventional identity is a shrine to
itself, fooling itself that it is immortal, thus inventing
myths of immortality which star various versions of
conventional identity.

So far, the discussion has been around the topic of
'realization', and has ignored for the most part, the
possibility that space itself is aware and intelligent; and
yes, immortal; for when is there no space, though invisible
it may be? Awareness is this space of immortality, giving
birth to all objects, and also being their grave.

Identity incarnates in this awareness, and like the
ocean-born fish, is unaware of the natural amniotic fluid
which is awareness. Stalked by self-generated calamity,
humans invent ideas of 'Karma', which are expressed in the
same language which, like the sharp bait-knife, divides one
into many, and this knife is carried with pride, always at
the ready, the perfectly imperfect tool. Based upon the
assumption that there is one verifiable thing, all other
things, imagined or imagined not to be imagined, are thus
cut from the same formless jelly, and set upon the table as
suitable food for growth. Until humans see the jelly that
they are, they are unable to simply assimilate nothing;
nothing is another allergen, the void of everything, which
is itself an invalidation of conventional identity; nothing
is unimaginable.

Living space is nothing, awareness is nothing, and nothing
incarnates as identity; thus, nothing is what reincarnates,
but the allergy to nothing makes something from nothing,
and also language to classify it. Like the body expresses
boils in allergy, so identity is the expression of
something in nothing. Clinging to the rock of 'reality',
adhering against death, silly superstition supercedes
superb Self, describing what is vast in terms scaled to a
ruler of confusion, and the most confused measure is that
of time, the vast net of misunderstanding cast upon what is
assumed to be seen.

Clinging to the beautiful blossoms of spring, afraid to go
into that long night of summer, lest a petal should fall,
humans preserve unto embalming, the compilation of memories
which obscure the clear view of space. These objects,
infused with life only in the imagination of the
puppet-master, dance to the script of a shared dream,
playing dolls under the direct gaze of God. Chief among the
games of this worldly script, is the routine of 'seeking
God or true knowledge of God'; socially-reinforced
ignorance of God validates this seeking, but each seeker
feels the gaze upon Hir back; otherwise, this game would
expire of sheer boredom.

No puppet has ever become enlightened; enlightenment is the
awakening of the puppet-master. People define 'you' as this
non-enlightened puppet, agitating to educate you, to
enlighten you, to make you better, to make you the best of
all puppets, just like your parents agitated to make you
'good'. No puppet can be 'good' or 'bad' except in the
bizarre consensus dream-world of the doll-game. It is
identification with and as the puppet which is the
anesthesia of the puppet-master; how to get sober, as long
as the game is to continue until 'everyone gets it right'?
Certain drunks may assume that the cure for drunkenness is
alcohol; similarly, certain people may assume that the cure
for identification as being a puppet, is to work to perfect
the doll-play. Slogging about in the dream, picking up
clues to how the dream can be ended and reality finally
begun, fleeing the annoying bell of the alarm-clock of
suffering, all the while picking up and reattaching fallen
body-parts, the puppet moves only as the master dictates.
But the master, drunk upon game-bound success, hurls the
doll ever more skillfully into perfecting the game, slyly
positioning for the hinted rewards.

Doll contests are no match for this missive from awareness;
flashing diamond sharp cutter effortlessly cuts strings,
thus breaking feedback loop between master and puppet. At
this moment, master is suddenly sober, but as addict, must
patch those severed threads which lead to created identity,
thus to continue chosen trance-state. Focusing right on
through threatened breakup of familiar reality-patterns,
holding firm while sensorium wavers, reapplying the
familiar to the unknown, master reinitializes puppet,
throwing away timeless and conventionally meaningless
impressions, to continue on to mastery of puppet-hood. A
doll judged by other dolls, shutting out the true voices
which would give the lie to the entire game, attached to
world-dream success, master continues on, stoned out of Hir
mind by the fantastic events of the imaginary, always
declining credit for that authorship.

DAVE (MANCHINE)

Beautiful piece Gene. While it lends a great perspective as
to the how or why, it also does great justice in the
understanding of nothing.

It is sensed that there is a truth behind this game. I AM
perhaps touches that truth, but ever so distantly. Getting
to " " AM is closer, but that too is a sense, even when
empty consciousness is achieved. This simultaniety in
living space permits transposing empty and full
consciousness such that a sense of awareness materializes.
So where awareness is the possible "reason" for filling
consciousness, it is full consciousness that leads to
awareness... timelessly speaking. Such a transposition
permits a "living interface", keeping in mind that it is an
arbitrary interface. Greater meaning however is given to
"living" space.

GREG GOODE

Hi Gene-ji and Dave,

I like this! This view of simultaneity is actually taught
as one of the more abstract teachings in advaita vedanta.
The teaching is that all of phenomenality is actually dying
and being re-instantiated at every moment. In that moment,
all lives are parallel and simultaneous as in a flash.
There is no succession of anything, because the flash is of
zero (0) duration.

Actually the present moment comes complete with its own
built-in seeming pointers to a past and a future. Only
"seeming" -- because the pointers themselves as well as
their targets are inseparable from the present flash. So
there's no evidence that the pointers actually ever refer
to anything outside the moment. The present flash cannot
truly refer to another flash.

DAVID HODGES

Gene, I never thought you could outdo yourself but in this
case you have. Your message itself is a "missive from
awareness" which "effortlessly cuts strings". The master
who writes through YOU, truly stoned out of Hir mind to pop
such puppety poppety dreams through your keyboard to we
meat-puppets, this Master obviously is ecstatically
effortlessly writing for the sheer joy of it, and it is
quite an amazing performance to be able to attend.

DAN BERKOW

Dear Gene,

You raised several worthy points here - gracias. *And* all
of the points were the "apparent unfolding" of That which
might be termed "unstoppable simultaneity" or, perhaps,
"unopposed synchronicity", which must not even have
"apparent unfolding" (and only seems to have this when we
believe ourselves to be commenting upon it).

As you noted, there is One Event, sans subevents, hence no
"real unfolding" is possible, which might be termed, as in
your piece, "nothing happens," or could be stated as "there
can be no such thing as a discussion about whether
something happens or doesn't happens."

As there is One Event, it can never be, has never been
commented upon.

When you ask: Is one willing to give all of this up, simply
to know timelessness?

it only sounds like you are commenting upon, and raising a
question about a subevent.

the question is a resounding reverberation in
soundlessness, a tidal wave of nothing, a mighty echo of
the snuffing out of a candle that appeared in a dream.

or something like that ;-)

(not really)
____________________________________________________________________________

DANIEL HELLER, MATTHEW FILES AND JUDI RHODES

DANIEL: Does the list on this site, of teachers or people
you can contact, purport to offer names of those who are
fully "liberated/awakened/realized" or whatever other term
you prefer?

MATTHEW: well daniel, this list and others have lots of
names of teachers. Their "status" is purely subjective. I
particularly like "Sarlos hum-drum-guru -ratings", because
he rates everyone so low. Though there are a select few i
think he should bump up a few notches. Everyone has their
own opinion of who is at what level. Personally, i look
around at the scene today and i couldn't imagine having to
find a "real one" out of that mess. I consider my self
fortunate that i never had to do that search and just sort
of stumbled into my guru quite by accident not even knowing
i was looking for one, some 23 years ago. To many he is a
fraud, charlatan, liar, a fool, or totally deluded. To me
is the One with no second. So like i said, it's totally
subjective. Happy hunting!

DANIEL: I have long been under the impression that
receiving the full understanding was somewhat rare, perhaps
extremely rare. Now, surfing some sites such as NDS and
realization.org, I'm wondering if I've misunderstood.

MATTHEW: I think you understand just fine.i think i'm in
the minority on this one around these parts but i agree
with you. The way people talk you would think that the
whole of humanity is just waking up left and right. What a
crock! Wouldn't it be so nice and easy if there was a way
of testing for enlightenment. Like a ph test or something.
So that with anyone who claimed enlightenment, we could
just test them and if they failed or passed then that
proved it for sure. Oh, we already do have that in each of
our own little minds, with our own special criteria. Ah but
is it accurate? hmmmmm good question.

JUDI: Matthew, May I ask why is it a concern to you whether
someone else is enlightened or not? Wouldn't you agree that
your concern should be with the fact that you're not? I
mean it seems to me there should come a time, when you let
everyone else go and just look to your own present
experience itself - presently. I was down the bookstore
this evening and Saniel Bonder was giving a talk. And he
talked about 'greenlighting' yourself. In other words, you
finally give yourself the go ahead to go those places where
you really don't want to go. You allow yourself to go into,
even fall into, right into your failure. You allow yourself
to snuugle up, as it were, to your fears. I mean, you been
everywhere else, why not? :-) Think adventure! Heroic.

GREG GOODE

Welcome Dan! (Dan Heller's a buddy from NYC, new to this
list).
There are a couple of things to keep in mind...

-- there are many different definitions of enlightenment,
some definitions are restrictive and exclusive, some are
inclusive, some definitions make sense, some make no sense;
some definitions are intentionally used only as expedient
means or teaching devices only, and aren't meant to be
taken as true.

-- one can't ignore the personal and political aspects of
this stuff. E.g., in some cases there might be plain old
selfish personal motives for perpetrating a notion of
enlightenment that includes just me and a tiny handful of
others!

-- choose a definition, any definition. One must *still* be
careful: not all those who have famous celebrity status fit
the characteristics. And not all those who fit the
characteristics have famous celebrity status.

Let 'er rip!!

(editor's note: there should be more on this topic in the
next highlights)
___________________________________________________________________________

MELODY ANDERSON

JERRY: In the name of functioning optimally in the world,
the one with the Absolute perspective can still identify
the false self and say, Hey, this false self is a drag, and
proceed to improve. That's merely work, like looking after
a garden in a backyard. However, it really doesn't matter
if the yard is overgrown and full of poisonous plants, or
cultivated.

MELODY: I enjoyed your garden metaphor, Jerry.

To continue this metaphor with some of my own observations
this morning:

A 'garden' has no conscious motivation to feed someone, or
to be a thing of beauty, it doesn't care if the yard is
overgrown and filled with poison....or whether it is
cultivated.

It does seem to, however, have a 'motivation' towards
living. Each and every plant in the garden will stretch and
search for food and light....sometimes 'overshadowing'
others (and thur reducing their chances of
living)....sometimes 'drinking' more than its 'fair' share
of nourishment.

With this picture in my mind, I began thinking:

If the plants in a garden carried the desire to be
compassionate, how would they behave differently?

I wonder if their acts of 'compassion' would begin at
home....in that the older, more established plants might
begin to share more with the up 'starts'.....

maybe develop a consciousness of 'everyone should be fed'
and given the same chance to grow.

The question then arises

what if ...'in their compassion'... they no longer were
capable of bearing fruit? What if, in their zest to 'share
light' they stopped drinking in enough for themselves to
continue growing?

I'm reminded now of Osho's "bamboo" metaphor...the one
where he suggests we empty ourselves of all intention
(including compassion) and simply allow God to sing thru
us.

He seems to be suggesting (weaving his thought into this
metaphor) that what may look like an act of of uncaring
self-interest (when one plant overshadows another, or grabs
all the water for himself) might be Existence's perfect
song.

This leads me to wonder....concerning compassion:

Do me best serve God by 'cultivating' a heart of
compassion? Do we best serve ourselves? And how do we know
what's 'best'?

The moment we ask such a question....doesn't it show us
that we are NOT in the position to know? Doesn't it show us
that we are not at that moment being AS a 'hollow bamboo'?

One of my biggest struggles of all is in giving up this
notion of 'having a Christian heart' ....of being a helper
or healer....of being my bothers' keeper. And yet, my
observations (of my self and others) show me that this
'compassionate' intent can not only CREATE considerable
sorrow and suffering,

it is the fastest way for this 'bamboo' to become full of
itself.

It makes me wonder if this is not the challenge for AC, and
many others.

____________________________________________________________________

JUDI RHODES

Absolute Grace abounds and yet they worry and whine and
argue and fight and even kill each other.

______________________________________________________________________


We are the Nonduality Generation.
http://www.nonduality.com

More on " gurus and teachers and awakening"....too many good posts on Friday!!

MICHAEL READ

"Daniel Heller" wrote:
   Perhaps I really am the dullard I'd always suspected, not being
"enlightened" and all yet, and  I'm one of the few who hasn't been
let in on a colossal joke.

In the book _A Buddhist Bible_ by Dwight Goddard I read
these words purportedly uttered by Gautama Buddha:

"When I attained pure and perfect enlightenment, I realized
that there is no such thing as pure and perfect enlightenment.
Marvelous! Marvelous!"

Hah! Same thing here! Gained enlightenment only to find that
there is no such thing as enlightenment. Quite a liberating
experience, I must say. I do not say that I am enlightened. It's
such a silly thing to say. :-)) There is no single separate
person to be enlightened.

So what is there if there is no enlightenment? Like Matthew posted
today - just keep going - don't stop.

Whenever I'm asked what the meaning of life is, I just respond
that life is it's own meaning. To play in the fields of illusion
without fear, ahhh!

Buddhism is full of delightful contradictions. Buddha would say
that we work towards the enlightenment of all sentient beings
with on breath. Then, with the next breath, state there are
no such things as sentient beings.

As one human shadow in the great game of existance to another
all I can say is your very conciousness is the realization
of the so-called Self.

In other words, the true guru is already there - inside of you.

Enjoy! Not only is the joke on us, the joke is the thing.

HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!

Peace - boy are they gonna jump on me or what? - Michael

___________________________________________________________________

MATTHEW

  "Daniel Heller" wrote:
> Does the list on this site, of teachers or people you can contact,
> purport to offer names of those who are fully
> "liberated/awakened/realized" or whatever other term you prefer?
>
-----------well daniel, this list and others have lots of names of
teachers. Their "status" is purely subjective. I particularly
like "Sarlos hum-drum-guru -ratings", because he rates everyone so
low. Though there are a select few i think he should bump up a few
notches. Everyone has their own opinion of who is at what level.
Personally, i look around at the scene today and i couldn't imagine
having to find a "real one" out of that mess. I consider my self
fortunate that i never had to do that search and just sort of
stumbled into my guru quite by accident not even knowing i was
looking for one, some 23 years ago. To many he is a fraud, charlatan,
liar, a fool, or totally deluded. To me is the One with no second. So
like i said, it's totally subjective. Happy hunting!

D.H.:I have long been under the impression that receiving the full
> understanding was somewhat rare, perhaps extremely rare.  Now,
> surfing some sites such as NDS and realization.org,  I'm wondering
if I've misunderstood.

-----------I think you understand just fine.i think i'm in the
minority on this one around these parts but i agree with you. The way
people talk you would think that the whole of humanity is just waking
up left and right. What a crock! Wouldn't it be so nice and easy if
there was a way of testing for enlightenment. Like a ph test or
something. So that with anyone who claimed enlightenment, we could
just test them and if they failed or passed then that proved it for
sure. Oh, we already do have that in each of our own little minds,
with our own special criteria. Ah but is it accurate? hmmmmm good
question.
------------------matthew.
________________________________________________________________

JUDI

**********
Matthew,
May I ask why is it a concern to you whether someone else is enlightened
or
not? Wouldn't you agree that your concern should be with the
fact that you're not? I mean it seems to me there should come a time,
when you let everyone else go and just look to your own present
experience itself - presently. I was down the bookstore this evening
and Saniel Bonder was giving a talk. And he talked about 'greenlighting'
yourself. In other words, you finally give yourself the go ahead to
go those places where you really don't want to go. You allow yourself
to go into, even fall into, right into your failure. You allow yourself
to snuggle up, as it were, to your fears.  I mean,  you been
everywhere else, why not? :-)  Think adventure! Heroic.
--
Happy Days,
Judi
_____________________________________________________

MATTHEW

---------------------------------------------
judi, i honestly don't give a rats ass who is enlightened. In fact i
really care whether or not i am enlightened. It is a totally
irrelevant issue to me. The above post of mine about testing for
enlightenment was sarcasm about the need people have to test teachers.
I live snuggled up with my fears. It's not an adventure and it's not
heroic to me, none of it, it is just life.
..........matthew
___________________________________________________________

DAN BERKOW

Well-said, Judi.

If I notice my own avoidance of
   Reality, that is useful.
If I put energy into judging
   someone else, I may
   not be noticing my own
   avoidance in the process.

For me, it comes down to this:
   How invested am I in maintaining
     an "outside position"?

   To judge someone else, I maintain
     an outside position from them,
     maintaining criteria into which
     they fit or don't fit.

   With no outside position, pure awareness
     alone is.

   Being pure awareness, I have a "natural
     sense" of awareness, allowing me
     not to be fooled by someone.
   Living with "no distance" I'm aware when
     someone is invested in constructing
     distance.  It has nothing to do with
     needing criteria to evaluate categories
     such as "enlightened" and "nonenlightened".

   Being pure awareness, how much concern have
     I for someone's need to define self
     a certain way?  Living beyond definition,
     how much time and energy do I mobilize to
     try to get people to define themselves
     "correctly"?  How would that "pay off"
     in any useful way?  Would it add one iota
     to the nature of "pure awareness"?

     All I can see evaluation doing is
     being used to construct hierarchies
     with the "accurate ones", "good ones",
     or "knowledgeable ones" on top.  Have
     such hierarchies not proven to be
     the installation of human thought,
     evaluation, and politics?  (I'm not against
     thought, evaluation and politics, just
     know that they in no way define Truth).

   I'm not fooled because I'm not busy trying
     to evaluate you, categorize you.
   I'm directly aware - I don't get tricked.
   And now, who's the trickster, *really*?


   -- Dan
_______________________________________________________________

JAN BARENDRECHT

Daniel Heller wrote:

>Does the list on this site, of teachers or people you can contact,
>purport to offer names of those who are fully
>"liberated/awakened/realized" or whatever other term you prefer?

It depends on one's definition of the above terms. For instance, one can be
"liberated" from the idea of "I and you" but yet have to cope with the sense of
"I
and you", and one can be "liberated" from the very sense of "I and you". And
there
isn't (yet?) a test to prove the absence of the sense of "I and you".


>I have long been under the impression that receiving the full
>understanding was somewhat rare, perhaps extremely rare.  Now,
>surfing some sites such as NDS and realization.org,  I'm wondering if
>I've misunderstood.

No, you haven't misunderstood: comprehension of nondualism is simple, whereas
disciplines working with the body and the mind (several yogas) can be very
complicated.

   It seems that the disciples of some teachers
>could populate a small planet with all from their ranks who have
>understood their true buddha nature.  Perhaps I really am the dullard
>I'd always suspected, not being "enlightened" and all yet, and  I'm
>one of the few who hasn't been let in on a colossal joke.

Regarding understanding "only" of "buddha nature", its usefulness can be
compared to
the understanding of gravity when falling from the Empire State Building without
a
parachute :)

Gravity works whether people understand it nor not and likewise, with
"enlightenment": confessing one isn't enlightened has the same informational
value as
confessing one is enlightened. But just for the record, the term "enlightenment"
is
often used to denote recognition of "who one is". If one puts a mirror inside
the
cage of a pigeon, it won't have the recognition "I". For a monkey, that changes,
it
does recognize "I". For a humanoid, there is the option to recognize "my" body
in the
mirror and subsequently to recognize that "I" am not the body but... which
recognition is called "enlightenment". As might be guessed, that recognition has
(for
good reasons) to be considered a "start".

>Thanks all
>
>D

You're welcome
Jan
________________________________________________________________________________

JERRY

Daniel Heller wrote:
>
> What is a realizer?  What is a confessor?  I've never heard those
> terms before.

Hi Dan,

Welcome!

I take responsibility for using those terms. I can give my
understanding of them, however it is only one
interpretation.

It's really one term: realizer/confessor. It is one who has
known or who knows nondual nature. It could be a taste that
occurs from time to time or a stable knowing in the one
moment. And it is one who speaks intimately about his or
her knowing.

This from Michael Read is a good example of a confession,
as I use the word:

"I hold no beliefs. Have you lived this lifetime? I used to
think that I had a life until Grace burned me up. Now I am
enveloped in life. I did not know who I was until Grace
consumed me. There is not really a creature called Michael
Read. Only an abiding Presence."

The statement of a realizer might be illustrated by the
following written by Jan Barendrecht:

"Ending the succession of the transformations of the
thinking principle is the same as ending all
identifications - that is why achieving siddhis (creating
more identifications) is said to cause bondage. But for
some, especially followers, the spontaneous siddhis will
give a sense of certainty."

The confessor is a realizer; the realizer may or may not
lean toward being a confessor.

The realizer/confessor is one, although the confessor tends
to speak in the first person, but not always. Yet the 'I'
the confessor uses, as I see it, refers not to the speaker,
but to all individuals or to no individual; it refers to
consciousness perhaps.

When I started my website I found I very much enjoyed the
utterances of realizers/confessors and thought they were as
valuable as what was uttered by the recognized giants of
spirituality, whoever they are. Why? Because the knowing of
the Self or I Am is the same.

You don't have to be Tiger Woods to play golf, to understand
what it means to win and lose, or to speak articulately
about the game. You don't have to have a great long-lived
love or many loves to speak of love. A momentary glimpse, a
passing in the night, can be the inspiration for
heart-shaking poetry. The same with realization of
nonduality. The people who speak of that realization I've
called realizers/confessors.

Now, whether realizers/confessors on these lists are 'fully'
enlightened, is a subject I don't even recognize. The
question doesn't arise for me. For others it arises. I have
no need to know.

If a person has a need to know to what degree another is
'enlightened' then that's that person's nature and so be it.

Having said that, I do a certain amount of judgment. I judge
whether a voice is genuine and whether realization is
nondual. Who am I to do that? I have no right to do that.
Not enough people are embraced as realizers/confessors and
recognized on my list. However, I think the point has been
made that there are many, many realizers/confessors. Some
day the list will be expanded.

I hope I've addressed your questions fairly, Dan. Thanks
again.

Jerry
__________________________________________________________________

AND DANIEL REPLIES....

We can reliably assume that Buddha's statement that he "attained"
enlightenment was a mistranslation by someone with an incomplete
understanding of Buddha's "bones"

Similarly, I will assume that Michael misspoke when he wrote of
"gaining" enlightenment.  As there is no enlightenment and no
non-enlightenment, and no person to gain or lose it or anything else
in this nondual reality, gaining enlightenment would really be
something!

Speaking from experience, I spent several years as a Rajneesh (osho)
disciple, and have reflected on the fact that he said several times
that "a master like me only comes along every few thousand years.
There are only a handful of people on the planet who know the living
current.  If you miss me, you may not have another chance for many
lifetimes."

So was he deluding others, himself, or both?  or neither?

I don't know if Rajneesh was "enlightened" - being part of that
experience helped me, and obviously was part of this bodymind's
destiny.

And, as Greg and others have told me, there need to be different
teachers for different people at different levels with different
natures.  To me, to speak about our true nature, without KNOWING it
as Ramana and Maharaj did, is a waste of breath.

And I've met my guru, I'm not shopping anymore.  That is the ultimate
answer to my questions.

Also - are there really realizers and confessors, or is there just
realizing and confessing?


"The fate of the soul is determined in accordance with its prarabhda
karma.  What is meant to be will be, no matter what you do to prevent
it.  What is not meant to be will not be, no matter what you do to
make it happen.  Therefore the best course is to remain silent."
                 - Ramana
_______________________________________________________________________

HARSHA



When Ramana Maharshi's mother found him after some years of searching, she
tried to convince the Sage to come back home. He ignored her and remained
silent. She wept and wailed and begged him to come back. It went on for some
time, perhaps several days. Ramana then wrote the above on a piece of paper
and stayed silent. Disappointed and distressed, his mother returned home.
Eventually, she gave up the worldly life and joined him on the Arunachala
Hill. She was never away from him for even a day after that. Her fervent
wish was to die with her son near her. She passed away with Ramana's hands
on her head and heart. The Sage said that the Mother had gained complete
liberation. The story of his mother's death and  the last hours is quite
beautiful and worth reading.

Love
Harsha
_____________________________________________________________________

MELODY & JERRY

> This leads me to wonder....concerning compassion:
>
> Do me best serve God by 'cultivating' a heart
> of compassion?  Do we best serve ourselves?
> And how do we know what's 'best'?
>
> The moment we ask such a question....doesn't
> it show us that we are NOT in the position to
> know?  Doesn't it show us that we are not at
> that moment being AS a 'hollow bamboo'?

The hollow bamboo is empty. The hollow bamboo can't ask or
answer any questions. An answer, such as 'we are not in a
position to know' is not the hollow bamboo's answer. I'm
wondering if the answer is any better than the question.


> One of my biggest struggles of all is in
> giving up this notion of 'having a Christian
> heart' ....of being a helper or healer....of
> being my bothers' keeper.    And yet, my
> observations (of my self and others) show
> me that this 'compassionate' intent can not
> only CREATE considerable sorrow and suffering,
> it is the fastest way for this 'bamboo' to
> become full of itself.
>
> It makes me wonder if this is not the
> challenge for AC, and many others.
>
> my morning musings,
> Melody

The hollow bamboo allows God to sing through us, and that is
the voice of Grace. Yes, that is the challenge, remaining
empty. From my own seeing and from reading others, I find
there's no one-time emptying and that's it, done and final,
you're finished. God fills it, God empties it. Don't ask my
why. Yes, that's the challenge. That's the purpose of life,
as far as I know, keeping the bamboo empty in order to serve
the voice of God.

Jerry
_________________________________________________________

DAN BERKOW


>July 28
>
>The intellect divides everything between what it considers pleasant
>(acceptable) and unpleasant (unacceptable) and then opposes anything it
>deems unacceptable as a "problem" that needs solving!  Thus, any problem can
>only be solved at its source, which is the intellect that conceived the
>problem as a problem in the first place.
>

>In comparison with the inconceivable Infinity that we actually are, what we
>think we are is a mere hallucination, an illusory and insubstantial shadow.
                                                                         Ramesh
Balsekar
D:
Thank you, Ramesh!
Please, I have a couple of
   questions here.

I wonder,
   this idea that I'm inconceivable
   and infinite, well, it's just
   another thought after all, no?
If I think that thought is true,
   and I hold onto that idea,
   I'm still focused on a concept, no?
Now, I've perhaps changed from the
   concept that I'm limited to
   the concept that I'm
   "inconceivable and infinite."
But it's still a concept of
   myself either way,
   isn't it?

Just wanting to clarify here,
   probably you're just saying
   this as a helpful means
   to encourage me to drop
   any concept of "myself"
   of Reality, no?

So then, I can drop even my
   concept of you as saying
   something "true" about Reality?
Because, clearly, *I've already conceptualized*,
   the instant I've imagined/described
   myself as infinite and inconceivable.
   So, if I stick to that idea, I have
   become conceivable, no ...?

And Ramesh, why blame the intellect for
   dividing things?
That is just its job.
It can't help itself anymore than
   a computer can avoid using binary
   coding.

I've observed, as you apparently
   have, that delusion can be an
   attempted substitute
   for reality.
Is the intellect to blame for this,
   or is it the way *we* use the intellect?

It's our wishful thinking, our emotionally
   reactive belief that we can use
   the intellect to maintain a "self"
   that can be "owned";  that's
   the delusion, isn't it?

What I mean here is that the division
   between acceptable and unacceptable
   is taken as reality, not by the intellect,
   but by the attempt of an energy system
   to function separately?  The intellect
   divides things, and those things
   aren't ultimately separate, yet once
   I see through delusion, I can
   use the intellect without believing
   there are unacceptable pieces of reality,
   no?

Dan
_______________________________________________________

CHRISTIANA on Andrew Cohen:

Knowing little of AC's history, having read some of his writing and his
magazine, I attended his lecture, because he showed up nearby. I was as
much interested in the 200 others who were there, as I was in his
presentation. I saw no indication of a demand for personal worship. He
seemed more to be throwing the onus of responsibility upon the
listeners. His message is riddled with contradiction, but that appears
to be an ever present dynamic with communication about all This. It
certainly shows up here.

The speculative thought which occured, as I observed his demeanor, was
that he was an East coast Jewish guy who grew up with a fantasy of being
a stand up comic and suddenly had an awakening which catapulted him into
a different arena. He has a certain schtick. His message, however, has
value. His new book has a simple clarity in it's structure.

What I did not experience was the depth of dropping which I have twice
known with Eckhart Tolle and more recently with Dan Berkow (btw.. see
photos of Dan.. although they do not do justice to his presence)
http://www.egroups.com/files/NondualitySalon/Friends+from+the+Salon/

Would I choose AC as a personal teacher? Likely not. Do I value that we
live in times when these teachings are offered so freely? Very much so.
I am aligned with his thoughts about the clarity of intention leading to
utter simplicity.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MARK:

MMmmmmm...  i like that word "awakended"  kinda hammers home the point,
doesn't it?  I hadn't noticed that awakend combines our love of funerals
(wake) and the reason for them (end).  Have a good weekend...  I'm off
to a breathworkshop.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HARSHA:

Once Dan said, "hold no head above your own"!
We loved it! Wonderful and beautiful advice.

And then we realize that there are no heads and only the Heart. We are in
the Heart. We Are the Heart!


DAN:

Yes, holding no head above
   mine, mine seems to have
     been misplaced ;-)

I want to tell you about It,
   but It won't let me.
It insists on telling you
   Itself, directly.

(And It has! And It IS!)

I tried so hard to describe It.
But any word I uttered was
   instantly short of the mark.

How useless am I,
   with nothing I can say ...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

JERRY on the new NDS Press List:

Anyone else who is gung-ho
about working on some aspect of book publishing,
is more than welcome to join. For now, all messages are
public, so people can see what we've been talking about:
http://www.egroups.com/messages/ndspress

If you join, you will be asked to do some work, such as
writing, gathering material, editing, design, format,
getting involved in legal and business matters, and in all
decisions, etc. If you're enthusiastic and already envision
the finished product, join us!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HARSHA forwards a post from the Advaitin list:

Thank you for sharing your wisdom and insight Sri Frank-Ji and you have our
gratitude.
Your emphasis on simplicity is, as usual, sheer eloquence. We never tire of
reading it! :-).
Who would have thought that so many graced with knowledge and wisdom would
gather like this on cyberspace!
What people might not know that behind the intellectual power of Frank-ji
(and Sadaji, Danji, Ramji, Janji, and so many others) is spiritual wisdom
housed in a warm, tender, and compassionate heart. We feel blessed to know
you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MATTHEW:

I've been wondering why more use isn't  made of the chat room. I see
a lot of people check in there, though not many names i recognize
from these posts, and there is very little conversation going on.
Personally i think it can be a great tool for communicting,
being "live" and all. Anybody have any comments on the nds chatroom?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

XAN:

Awakening is personal and intimate, just between you and You.
When your intention is clear to look into yourself - your delusions
and your Truth - teachers, no teachers, and teachings show up as needed.
It is the mind that loves to analyze, evaluate and compare
and it is this mind that veils the truth of you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

CHRISTIANA:

Speaking about nothing nakedly..

This week, a perceived blow to this egoic frame, has amplified a deeper
inquiry into both the content and structure of the unconscious program
in operation here, which may have engendered the blow.

Judi offers falling into one's failure, one's fear. And I am more fully
seeing that injunctive, way beyond the level of a psychological pursuit.
To speak of this here is perhaps, an attempt to not hide from this
falling.

I'm staring at my failure to love, as manifest by a program which has a
long standing rhythmic pattern of reinventing itself through critique.
An entrenched perceptual groove of noticing (or fearing) what is "not
right". Rarely inquirying deeply enough into the essential rootedness of
the criteria employed.

A facet of the rhythm of an introvert, is also the identification as
someone who is not seen. A yearning to be seen juxtaposed with an
expectation of invisibility. I wonder about these templates we come in
on. Is the mechanism of created body-temperament the key to what needs
to be overcome (as opposed to excused). So a side question is whether
heightened sensitivity which flavors introversion, is also a function of
a contained hiding and encapsulating of a particular identity.

What I also see is that behind the seeing of what is not perfect is an
inherent failure to grasp the perfection of All.

The eye, predicated upon a core belief that the world is not safe, that
others will not see, is quite crafty at intuiting the flaw in other
which will allow itself to self replicate. Nothing new here for me. As
*knowledge* I've know this for years. What is newer is the direct
witnessing of the movement. That I can locate self in a container which
is bounded by conditions, is sometimes (when I'm paying attention) known
through the alarm of  perceived threat and the contraction of defense.
The eye then is turned outward looking at the projected structure of
another's projected container. The ostensible gaze outward, I suppose,
is an attempt to 'make sense' of what is perceived. Yet this 180 turn
inward merely reveals yet another aperture of the container, which in
essence  is attempting to perpetuate the assumed rightness of the
container itself. Slipping in and out of the container in ever
broadening sweeps of perception, offers specific observation of the
essential lie. That the container is seen to evaporate, or at least to
break up its pixel resolution, effects a discharge of its realness. When
again I find myself contained, it is easier to understand that I am not
that.. even as the flawed scent of that may still be a pollutant. This
is not self-deprecation but more an essential sobriety as the dance is
seen for what it is doing.

Two movements occured this week which are different. The first was that
beyond the initial reaction to the assumed "blow", what rose up to meet
me was a clear understanding that I was not the images being bounced off
my screen. The fact that these last nine months have been graced with
continuous openings to an essential simple sweetness of being, which is
not encumbered by the personal movements of meaning binding , leaves me
better situated to abide in that open knowing. That the larger symphony
is being heard and understood as that withinwhich any identity container
is held, affords me the courage to stand in the crucible of the
essential failure of the container's programming.

If it is not another oxymoron, perhaps the nondual is also the
cultivation of the capacity to be more fully multidimensionally aware.

So, I am quite soberly observing the mechanism which very subtly and
very craftily intuits in other the very mechanism which will be tripped
off to perpetuate an unconscious position of fear. Fear in this case has
so many faces.. avoidance, confusion, righteousness, hurt, attack. Judi
said to me recently that I was a nasty piece of work. I both own and
release ownership to this view.

Larry said yesterday  "A confessor is someone who opens himself for
inspection." There are so many layers to this opening. So many resting
points along the way. So many times I've thought I was open, only to
humbly observe that the opening is merely the next holon, still bounded
by identity.

What is being known now, in large part due to the sandpaper and love
offered here, is enough stability in the Witness to moment to moment
observe and pluck the projection; as well as, at each moment not
identify as surgeon doing anything.

A baby step into the observation at failure to love.. a baby step into
the fullness of resting in Love.

thank you for standing in close proximity within the interval,


MARCIA:

I recognize the feeling of what you are speaking to.
I might put it into different words. If you don't mind,
I will share a bit of my perceptions.

One thing that I notice is that some things I am very
fluid about recognizing that they are not who I am.
In other words, not identifying myself.  There are other
things that I cling to as really being who I am. Recognizing
that anything that I can identify as who I am, I am not, is
scary. That is the realization of one's own nothingness.
Being able to hold still and not identify with the fear creates
the space for........(fill in the blanks). I propose that really
nothing new has occurred except that you may be closer to
the bone. Closer to one of those things you really do identify
as who you are. This is a really tricky part cause getting
identified with your identifications is still identification. How
what you see is taken is just another thing to be seen. It is
nothing at all. Just a pack of cards.


DAN:

Wow!
Alice!!
You're walking through
   the Looking-Glass!!!

Got to run, now.

I'm late, I'm late,
  for nothing, for nothing...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MARCIA:
This whole psychology and therapy
stuff is really interesting to  me. I am not sure what to
make of it really. I went to three different therapists
and told them each a different "story" and each of
them came back with a different diagnosis which I
realized was a reflection of the "story" I told them.
I have a daughter diagnosed as bipolar. She is
very smart and perceptive. She is an actress, a
true "drama queen". She is brilliant and beautiful
and she can manipulate like hell. The important thing
is not the diagnosis but whether the person can
"see" it or not i.e. identification. :-)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

DAN:

The value of guilt is so
   the boat can be steered.

No point in repeatedly
    hitting the same rocks!

Did you think such a major
    emotion evolved
     accidently?

It's a matter of discriminating
    useful guilt from
     compulsive self-punishment


MATTHEW:

You've been reading too many psychology books dan.
Guilt steering the boat? It's time for a mutiny boss.
Useful guilt? Not a chance, not in my neighborhood.
There is such a thing as remorse, often confused as guilt,
but not even close to each other.
.............matthew, who is not under the delusion that freedom from
guilt means we are free to do anything we want.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

CARING:

MARCIA:
I don't know what your problem is Judi but you need
to lighten up.

JUDI:
I'll tell you what my problem is Marcia. I care.
I see everyone going about their lives silently suffering
their separatness from God, their ignorance. Breaks my heart.
Totally.

HARSHA:
My dearest Judi,

If it breaks your heart, it might mean that you are suffering. :-).
Get over it!!! :-)

JUDI:
:-))  You're damn right I suffer! :-) Take a look at these idiots
running around. If that's not to suffer, I don't know what is??? :-)

MATTHEW:
Bruce, i agree that my comment applies to everyone. What i was
really saying was that, that will happen. Her approach will change. I'll
put money on it(a couple of bucks anyway). She will get to a point and
see that her approach really isn't working, and because of her
caring, and dedication  to others "getting it", her approach will
change.(To what?, who can say) This is just what comes from being
committed to serving others. It is simply an aspect of maturation.
You keep trying and trying to put it in a way that can be "heard". An
exhausting and usually fruitless even maddening,task but results are
not the point anyway, service is the point.

JUDI:
Darn! :-) And I was so looking forward to everybody being  happy!

Shit. :-)

MATTHEW:
---------------judi, thats my point. You are indeed looking forward
to that and committed to it happening, whatever it takes. You aren't
gonna let me down are you?


MARK:
Leonard Cohen suggests the following:

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in.

I say:
Let your heart break.  That's what hearts are for.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MARK & MARCIA, SPIRITUAL PROGRESS:

MARCIA:
I am afraid to look at what picture is on the site. I have
lots of pictures because I got a camera for Christmas but
I am not sure how to load them onto the site.

MARK:
You have a lovely picture of yourself and your teenage kids (or so I
presume) on the web. yum!

MARCIA:
I wish to talk a little more about the post on spiritual progress.
I have a question actually. Gurdjieff said everything was material
but of different densities (I apologize to G. and any real teacher
if I screw this up). In other words everything could be weighed
and measured if one had the know how.

I have noticed that if or as I hold very still (in meditation) and
this means most specifically my spinal column, and let my attention
ride on the breath without interfering with it (I know this is
happening if I can feel the sensation in my nose of the breath
going in and out), and something happens like a loud noise
or a fight between the kids, I can sense the emotion rise
and sort of just 'turn over'. The rising and falling of an
emotion. This is a real physical occurrence but of a much
finer subtle energy than my ordinary consciousness or
experience of emotional reactions. Why am I saying this?
Because this seems very measurable. So when I read that
post, I was both laughing internally (saying to myself that I
would know what Judi would think of this), and I was
intrigued at the same time.

MARK:
I am intrigued as well.  What else have you noticed?

MARCIA:
If or as I am holding very still as mentioned above, I have,
on occasion experienced the reception of what can only
be termed Grace. Now this emotion is very different
and also does not originate on the ordinary plane of
consciousness. I have had the wherewithal to ask this
energy/emotion for help.

Can you relate to any of this?

MARK:
Yes.  I seem to revisit it again and again, and am slowly learning to
trust in it and allow it. (to accept the help offered by it)  That's
what I mean when I say there is no bottom.  It seems to get more
intimate, more powerful if I abandon myself to it.  What helped a good
deal for me was  my friend Mary's quoting of Anthony DeMello (I'd go
hunt for his original words, but I am on my way out the door for day two
of a breathworkshop, so forgive the liberal dose of paraphrasing...).
DeMello says something like, why cling to things to keep from falling?
Everything is falling.  That is what I experience in meditation and more
and more often in my active life as well.  I am perfectly safe
free-falling.  That started for me in meditation, and is energetic in
nature.  I don't really know how to put it into words well.  I can take
a breath and let it out and feel where it ends, and then take another
and let it go deeper, and another and deeper.  It's not forcing the
breath out, it's really allowing the breath to depart however it will.
This brings me to a deep, quiet place that feels like home.  My latest
joy has been demonstrating this directly to those who will allow my to
hug them long enough to go through several breath cycles.  That for me
goes so much deeper, so I am always looking for the opportunity.  When I
do this a few times, I feel open everywhere.  It's quite astounding.  I
feel capable of being quiet and listening to people, I feel capable of
feeling their emotions, and it is not frightening, it's just intimate.
(even strong emotions of worthlessness or rage - they come in, but don't
stick.  When I haven't done it in awhile (when I have forgotten it),
those same emotions are so dangerous, and I can go into terrible mind
states.  so far, I seem to have survived even those though.)) It started
out for me as an intellectual curiosity about what people meant when
they talked about kundalini and chakras, and has turned into a
recognition that it is all love (it's an energy, but it's flavored -
hard to say), flowing around in majestic circles.  We can just let it
flow through us, no need to do anything.  It's wonderful.  People are
afraid to hear about it though, and it takes some practice to allow it
anyway, to not need to depend on approval.  Do you see what I am saying,
or have I sidestepped your question to talk about me? (the answer could
be yes and yes)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

JUDI XAN & MARK Falling into Truth:

JUDI:
Matthew, May I ask why is it a concern to you whether
someone else is enlightened or not? Wouldn't you agree that
your concern should be with the fact that you're not?

I mean it seems to me there should come a time, when you
let everyone else go and just look to your own present
experience itself - presently.

I was down the bookstore
this evening and Saniel Bonder was giving a talk. And he
talked about 'greenlighting' yourself. In other words, you
finally give yourself the go ahead to go those places where
you really don't want to go. You allow yourself to go into,
even fall into, right into your failure. You allow yourself
to snuugle up, as it were, to your fears. I mean, you been
everywhere else, why not? :-) Think adventure! Heroic.

XAN:
~ Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes!
Awakening is personal and intimate, just between you and You.
When your intention is clear to look into yourself - your delusions
and your Truth - teachers, no teachers, and teachings show up as
needed.

It is the mind that loves to analyze, evaluate and compare
and it is this mind that veils the truth of you.


MARK:
Yes, this is the falling that I speak about. It's falling into failure.
falling into success as well. falling into it just as it is.  failure is
fine.  no problem  we all fail.  we all succeed.   we all love we all
hate we all fear we all celebrate.  percieving it as a problem is the
only problem.

Love, Mark

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MINDS

GLORIA:
"To know that you are a prisoner of your own mind, that you live in an
imaginary world of your own creation is the dawn of wisdom."
   Nisargadatta Maharaj


DAN:
In Western myth,
  this is the story of Lucifer,
   who suffered from a delusion
    that it was possible
      for someone other than God to
       be God.

Delusion leads to construction of
   private reality with "me" as
    master of what is surveyed.

Because it never exists, it
   is called "delusion."
Because it turns heaven
   into hell (just look
    around), it is called
     "worth seeing through".

"Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done,
   on earth as it is in heaven."

"Nevertheless, not my will,
   but Thine be done."


DANIEL HELLER:
I love Maharaj but I must say, after listening to Wayne and Ramesh
quite a bit, and Ramana, I don't share the opinion that we make our
own prisons.  And Maharaj was said to have made it clear that there
was no bondage.

Again there is possible translation confusion in taking Maharaj's
teaching from I Am That, or from the Jean Dunn or Robert Powell
books.  I have loved those books myself, but in the end I think
Pointers From Nisargadatta Maharaj by Ramesh is most likely to
preserve the spirit of Maharaj, since Ramesh was arguably M's closest
disciple and certainly understood completely.

Of course, with Maharaj any translator or editor was faced with the
problem of Maharaj's earthy sense of humor and frequent "toilet talk"
  or locker room talk- I've heard he often elaborated on lofty
spiritual topics with references to peepee and caca and sex, etc.

(Though I admit this may be off the subject of mental illness.)


HARSHA:
The greatest Shankracharyas and Yogis of India sat at the feet of the Sage
of Arunachala, Ramana Maharshi, to catch a glimpse of his eyes. Fully
immersed in the ocean of consciousness, His life was that of utterly
spontaneous immaculate purity. His light shone like the fully risen Sun
bathing in Its Own Eternal Luster. Truly, nothing really can be said of
Ramana to describe Him adequately. He Is the Heart.



DANIEL HELLER:
My guru, so to speak, is Wayne (Liquorman.)  Though I don't really
differentiate between Wayne, Ramesh, Maharaj, and Ramana.

Except that Wayne is the tall fat bald ex-druggie, Ramesh is the
ex-bank president, Maharaj was functionally illiterate, and Ramana

well, what about him?

Since you asked.

Thank you all for your welcomes


MICHAEL:
No, thank you!

Having once met Wayne L. I appreciate your 'so to speak'. He is
delightful! About a month ago he passed through Portland, OR (where
I keep this carcass) and Judi Rhodes let me know he was going to be
here. Since I had read his 'No Way' book I was very interested in
seeing him. What a treat!

The first thing he said was (I loosely quote) "Everything is
conciousness, is God. Once you've got that, you're done." He then
gently and with great good humor proceeded to speak and entertain
questions.

He is one of whom it can truely be said, "In him there is no guile."

First he devulges the greatest 'secret' and then just laughs! :-))

HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!

Peace - One and One is One and One - Michael



CHRISTIANA:

He (Johne Wellwood) writes as bridge between the Western focus on the
personal
and interpersonal and the Eastern suprapersonal ground of being.

"Another way to say this is that in addition to waking up to our
ultimate spiritual nature, we also need to grow up - to ripen into
a  mature, fully developed person."

From Amazon review: "Have you ever noticed that self-described
spiritual people are not necessarily all that easy to be with? John
Welwood has a term for what often happens--spiritual bypassing.
This is when a person reaches for the stars while forgetting about the
goop on his shoes."


MICHAEL:
Thank you, Christiana. This rings true. More true, I think, for those
who seek spirituality as an escape from this world and the fear
that living here can bring.

I have seen some who can/could go into samhadi and just glow! Then
returning from thier meditation were/are the most obnoxious little
turds! Heeheehee!

But that's OK. It's just the Play of the Universe.

The other day, to escape the heat, I ambled down to the nieghborhood
tavern for a brew and a bite and a game or two of pool. While
there I was engaged in conversation by a fellow who was most
passionate about basketball. He became very upset and emotional
as he held forth on the 'sorry state of the NBA'!

Inside I was just laughing! No, not at him, but at the Self
who was in there talking about the NBA to the Self that is in here!

HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!

Peace - Walking in Wonder - Michael

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MICHAEL DAN nad ANDREW AT PLAY:

MICHAEL:
Not laughing 'at you'
Not laughing 'with you'
Laughing over here 'beside you'
Hmmm...beside myself with laughter!

HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!

Peace - do Be, do Be, do, indeed - Michael


DAN:
Michael-san,
That's not me beside
   you, and it's not
   you beside yourself.

As there's no way
   to figure this out:
I'll laugh you,
   and you laugh me.

-- Dan

ANDREW:
Mirror mirror off the wall
who's the enlightenedest of them all?

I'm enlightened.
Yeah right.
I'm not enlightened.
Yeah right.

  Who cares?

Polishing?
Progress?
Good luck.
You aint going nowhere.

That's not me in there,
  no way!

The mirror's broken!

I can't see myself.
Freedom!


MICHAEL:
Thank you, Andrew!

Now, could you please pass me another bottle of Dammitall?
These biscuits are dry and in need of gravy!

HooHa! Michael


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PSYCHOTHERAPY

MATTHEW:
You've been reading too many psychology books dan.
Guilt steering the boat? It's time for a mutiny boss.
Useful guilt? Not a chance, not in my neighborhood.
There is such a thing as remorse, often confused as guilt,
but not even close to each other.
.............matthew, who is not under the delusion that freedom from
guilt means we are free to do anything we want.



DAN:
Matthew,
You raise an issue worth examining, I feel.
I've examined this issue as
   part of working with people, and I
    share my position as it is now,
     based on psychological
      work and conversation with
       others doing the same.

Here's what I'm talking about, it
   comes from working with people who
    have experienced guilt.  Saying
     "get rid of the guilt, it's useless"
    isn't always the helpful thing to say
     or do.  It depends on what the guilt
    is about.  Neurotic guilt isn't helpful
   and can be tossed.  Guilt when there has
   been and continues to be hurt to self or others
    can be useful.  I've found that having absolutistic
    rules in life isn't particularly helpful, including
    a rule like "guilt can never be useful, so always
    get rid of it right away".

Now, there is unsplit awareness beyond guilt.
And there is awareness with no "doer"
   in which impeccable action occurs
   without awareness of separation.
Guilt doesn't arise as a factor if there
   is impeccable action with no doer.
However, trying automatically to get rid of guilt,
   without noticing first what it's about,
   isn't impeccable at all.

Guilt may play a part in moving
    away from split-minded actions
     and allow opening.
It depends on the situation.
So, I'm talking about dealing constructively
   with people, where they're at, with
    what they're experiencing in a given
    situation.

Suggesting everyone should toss all guilt
   sounds like you've read too many pop-psych books of
     the superficial kind. In fact, it strikes
    me as ironic that you've noticed that everyone is
   not as enlightened as they would like to believe.
   That's exactly why guilt has a role to play at times.

Guilt is when you see you are or
   have been hurting
   someone or yourself, realizing
     continuing on the same way
    is not useful.  It can be related to
      compassion and empathy.

Guilt that's useful leads to atonement,
   not to self-punishment.  That kind of
    guilt is recognition of a mistake,
      it's not the internalization of
     someone else's evaluations (which is
     "neurotic guilt").

At - one - ment, yes, this can
   be the opening that arises from
   honest guilt.

And definitely, it involves remorse!
That's what I'm talking about.

It strikes me as somewhat odd that
   you separate guilt and remorse
     so definitively in this way.
That just doesn't fit with my
    experience of working with people.
They're simply not as separate as you assume.

This is not about psychology books,
   it's about real work with people
     who have hurt others and themselves
       and recognize it's time to change.
Guilt can play a part in that change process.
For example, someone has been physically or emotionally
    abusing someone.  If that one starts to allow
    feelings of guilt (which have often been pushed
    away or denied), that can be useful.
    It's connected with feelings of remorse and
    movement to change.  Maybe you're confusing guilt
    with self-blame?  Those two aren't the same.
    I can say, "I hurt someone, I don't feel good about it,
    and I want to change the pattern."  Guilt is the
    "not feeling good" part.  It can be healthy.
    Just like not feeling good after eating certain
    foods can be a signal not to keep up that
    pattern of eating.  So, there can be healthy
    guilt, and it doesn't have to involve self-blame.
    The energy of guilt is part of an ill-feeling that
    leads to change.  If one feels just fine about abusing
    someone, feels no guilt about it, why would one change?

I think you may be confusing unnecessarily
   holding on to guilt (which can be very
    self-limiting) with using guilt in
     a healthy way, which involves releasing
       it.  You acknowledge guilt, feel remorse,
         atone, accept, and release.

Essentially, guilt involves honestly acknowledging
   a mistake.  Thinking that one can
     make no mistakes can lead to
      many problems.

And yes, there are people who avoid
   guilt, wanting to act as if hurting
     others doesn't matter.

Guilt has a place in the scheme of things.

In fact, there is nothing out of place.



MARCIA:
"The therapy model and the nonduality model don't fit together.
To accept therapy, you have already accepted a mind set with enormous
implications."

CHRISTIANA:
John Welwood has written a very good book on this topic. "Toward a
psychology of awakening: Buddhism, Psychotherapy, and the path of
personal and spiritual transformation" c.2000 Shambhala

From the introduction: As awareness starts to move beyond the
boundaries of the conditioned personality structure, this expansion
inevitably challenges that structure, flushing out old, subconscious,
reactive patterns that often emerge with a vengeance. From a modern
perspective, they can also be understood and worked with
psychologically - as subconscious aspects of one's conditioned
personality structure that often break through into consciousness
only when that structure is thoroughly challenged by the process of
awakening to one's larger nature. If these psychological issues are
not addressed, they often cause distortions in people's spiritual
development. So it is not enough just to have spiritual realizations.
It is  also esssential to deconstruct the subconscious emotional and
mental patterns that are held in the body and the mind, and that
prevent people from fully embodying a larger way of being in their
lives."


DAN:
Egads!
Just what we need.
Another authority
   telling us
    what we really need to do,
     and how we really should
       be doing it!



MARCIA:
I am not saying that a person doesn't need to work through
their issues. It is the perspective that one has about it and the
technique that is employed. Therapy starts from the position
that the issue is real and needs to be fixed. The idea is whether
I identify myself as the issue or whether the issue is another
constriction to be seen for what it is and let go of. Do you
believe the issue is who you are? Do you believe the story?
A person who has spiritual realizations is not (IMO) realized
but a person having glimpses. Position is everything. A fully
enlightened person doesn't need therapy. They are whole; unified.
We hold ourselves and others in place by how we see them.
Let go of the image and movement takes place.



MARK:
I don't know... I wonder if this is too sweeping a statement about
therapy...  The therapy that I have had has shown me how my issues are
storylines that I run and voices that I speak, which may have a logical
source, but which no longer serve me.  I was just at a two day workshop,
where everyone had this same story demonstrated to them.  Feelings
first. dunk!  now what was that you just felt, and how did it arise? Oh,
I see, I'm just like all of them!!  I complain about how my Mother is
always criticizing me, what?  I rush in to do it first to protect
myself?  Why so I do!!  It's not my Mother I'm always complaining
about... IT'S ME!!!!   Hooooh boy!  Ten people, ten stories, ALL
IDENTICAL!!! (okay, maybe a father or a brother thrown in for fun, but
hey, it's all ME, ME, ME. So who is this me?  And why is he so eager to
cause me suffering?  What a crazy job!  Shit, I don't even get payed for
it. No benefits, NOTHING!!! sheesh indeed.

I am reading The Inward Arc - Healing in Psychotherapy and Spirituality
by Frances Vaughan. She says "Healing happens more easily through us
when we allow it to happen in us.  In this way the wounded healer who,
at the existential level, identifies with the pain and suffering of
those he or she attempts to heal, becomes the healed healer who, being
grounded in emptiness and compassion, can facilitate healing more
effectively.  By perceiving Spirit not as a realm apart from others, but
as the ground of being of all realms, healing awareness may be
established as the context of any interaction, and any situation may
become an opportunity to heal."  (quick nod to oh for pointing this out
to me awhile back) Sounds both therapeutic and nondual to me.  I don't
think one has to put the cart before the horse (oh, yikes, I meant to
say the horse before the cart...) Well, I'm saying they can walk side by
side at least part of the way (the part that's downhill?  I always push
the metaphor too far. I should call them metafars)

What I learned this weekend is the meaning of the phrase heartfelt
honesty.  It's much more than just vanilla honesty.  Who knows? It may
even be truly honest.  I've known for years that I am an alchoholic and
that I'm ashamed of it.  Today I know it in my heart. No foolin anymore
(unless I go back into the shame and take up residence again, which I
may do... It's so comfy in there. I know it so well.  It's kinda scary
out here - all that light, it hurts my eyes.)  "The future's so bright,
I gotta wear shades." (Timbuk2)  You used to all that light yet,
Michael?



CHRISTIANA:
Hi Dan..

I was a bit surprised by your response here. I thought that you and
John were colleagues of sort. I don't sense the tenor of the book
being flavored with imperatives.. more pointers, along a continuum.

I see a kind of evolution from the therapeutic into the nondual. What
has been significant, for me, is that I've observed the flow of mind
for years through meditation and as observed through Depth Psychology
or Transpersonal work, but now it is being seen through as false or
dissonant movement from Witness position. A subtle but very
significant shift. Seen not from within the container, but from the
locus of awareness beyond the container. These seem to me to be steps
in the evolution of Psychotherapy into the nondual. And I sense that
there is an omnidirection to this flow. I can not say that the
newfound fledgling capacitance to drop or stop or be pushed through
the identity container through Grace, would have occured without a
longstanding ruthless commitment to applying awareness to the core
roots of identity. This has operated in tandem with listening through
the heart. At present, Psychology is not what calls me, yet the
understanding, engendered therein, has innumerable applications in my
daily life. I agree, no new hat of ideation to wear is important. I
rest in an open head which notices bifurcation. I entered this
discussion merely as a voice noting that eschewing therapy tends to
bifurcate.

And John Welwood (and I) would most definitely, and paradoxically,
agree with you regarding this:


DAN:
So much conceptualization about
   what a realized person is or isn't,
    what they supposedly need or don't need.
Speculation, opinion, fruitless mental
    energy.

Generates another concept, another
   imaginary picture to try to hang a hat on.

What is It that is right now moving
   through everything in the entire
     universe?

It's moving through "you" right now!!

Does It care if you're "realized"
   or "not realized", "going to therapy"
    or "not going to therapy"???

Wake up to It!
BE It!
There is nothing
   It isn't!!

Hallelujia!!!!

(or something like that)



DAN:

When there is no model being imposed,
      then nonduality simply *is*.
      BEING, all else follows.
      Whatever flows from BEING, flows
       from being.
      If one is doing therapy, do therapy.
      If one is eating, eat.
      And you're right, if I have a model
        of what therapy is, and I impose
        it on an "other", awareness behaves
        as if split.
      And it is equally split if I think I
        have a "nonduality model" to impose
        on reality.
      Fitting things into a "nonduality model"??
      Help!

MARCIA:
Yes, that part wasn't right. :-)

I am working at expressing something and not making
it clear; perhaps because it is not clear to me.
Let me try again. We have these stories that we are
writing. A giant weaving cause stories blend together
and come apart and so forth. Therapy fixes the story
so that it works better. In some cases this has to
happen otherwise the story will end or be very dysfunctional
and disrupt the larger dreambody. But in no way can
working from within the story ever get a person outside
the story. That is like trying to pick up the board you are
standing on. Therapy is like tuning up the car or changing
the spark plugs but it will never tell you what direction to
go or how to drive the car. You can't be whole by fixing
the parts. You get out of the story and you are whole.



GENE with MARCIA:

NDS

Hi Marcia,

You wrote:

" Therapy starts from the position
that the issue is real and needs to be fixed."

Wherein I replied: Your statement does not represent my understanding of
therapy. In fact, the Great Secret known by aware therapists, is that
the "issue" is never real. What is real is the painful world the
patient has generated.

To help someone let go is good, but to help someone to understand the
nature of their congestion is better; a case of giving a fish VS
teaching to fish.

The patient-identified 'issue' is seen as the cork in the bottle;
upon removal, flow is initiated. Circulation is reinstated. Sharing
becomes possible.

Obscurations of consciousness occur at the behest of the operator of
that consciousness; vision so edited is distorted but "safe". Rather
than chase the mean dog out of the yard, it is decided that running
from the mean dog is good, normal, virtuous, and 'highly spiritual'.

There are many styles of running from the mean dog. One style is to
edit the image of the dog out of the field of vision, thus to not see
what is biting one's ass.

Our world-dream mass culture deems denial a proper stance, and lends
its considerable persuasive power to those whose denial is being
threatened by the insurgent forces of awareness.

Thus we have millions of dogs biting millions of asses, and a vast
industry of drug-psychiatry to come to the aid of denial.

Real actual therapy takes all of this into account, and aims to arm
the patient against pervasive world-dream traps. It is the violence
of the enforcment of denial which is the queasy fear which plagues so
many; and every one has been punished for seeing what is real.

Then:

MARCIA:
Gloria,

You asked what identification was. Identification is simply
believing in the world you have created. You are identified
with your own creation. Your identity is locked up in the
imaginary world you have created.

Everyone has a "story." Sometimes the storyline changes
so we believe we have progressed but this is just a new
story. To see the whole  storytelling mechanism
for what it is, is the dawn of wisdom which is spoken
about.

GENE:
Wise words on the whole; however, I point out that while seeing the
mechanism is good and helpful, it is necessary to admit to the events
which enable our isolation (denial) and alienation.

We have all been assaulted from our earliest days; those who suffer
the most now, are those who were 'overly socialized' to the point of
being afraid to see, let alone admit, to the nature of the people
around them. In this unfortunate but common scenario, the victimizer
will define hirself as GOOD, and the victim as BAD.

Proper therapy addresses this issue as real, but also seeks to cast
light on the issue of why we are prisoners of morality. By filling
our children with codices, we make them vulnerable to codices.

A person is vulnerable to whatever forces are subscribed to.


==Gene Poole==

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

GENE with DAVE:
NDS

DAVE:
Gene wrote a very powerful piece Thursday, that still has
left an echo (as usual).

This piece gets to the very bottom of "what's going on".
My wife follows much of this stuff, and I tried to
translate the piece that Gene wrote, but couldn't, at
least not verbatim as he had written it. I sort of resumed
the piece in a form most closely relating to where she is
at right now, but the depth still escapes her.

GENE:
If your wife actually has active questions, perhaps you could
translate and post here. I will be happy to give some kind of answer.

DAVE:
On another note, there is a focus of work here in Chile
that uses varios forms of Eastern dogma as means in
psycho-analisis for transpersonal analysis in personal
change scenarios. I was asked if there could be some
common elements in those practices that could be seen or
extracted as techniques of a lesser "religious" nature.

Evaluating these last two concepts; that we can get close,
in words, to a description of what is going on, and that
there seems to be a set of ways and means at getting to
the understanding of "the reality", it becomes evident
that we must take another look at what is going on.

First, let us use the model that Gene described as
basically true! I know that's a big leap, truth is what's
left after we stop coloring and manipulating the image
with our personal impressions, but I'd make another
supposition and say that among us, there are very few that
have the capacity to present a topic as serious as this,
with as little personal color as Gene. So for now, lets
take it as the truth.

OK, that said, it appears that the truth is very difficult
to see, for one, and for another, if it can be glimpsed,
through a portal such as that created by Gene, a majority
of us seem to say, "Oh, that's nice... but what's it got
to do with me".

We are all trying to get to the truth, yet when it is
presented plainly in front of our face, it seems there are
too many other things to do to take it seriously.

GENE:
Opening to the truth can be like an acid-trip. It seems that
many people, feeling it coming on, shut down the truth-valve.

DAVE:
I spoke with a girl for an hour and a half yesterday
morning, someone who was interested in consciousness and
enlightenment. I travelled 120 Km. to talk to her. I
explained what consciousness is. I explained that everyone
sees things in a different way, and that previous
experiences have a lot to do with how one sees and reacts
to things, all the while the "actual reality" is there in
front of our face and practically has nothing to do with
our impression of it.

She seemed to be following. I explained that consciousness
is perception and for the normal person it is highly
focused in "personal falsehoods". Mmm, I can see that she
said. I said one must open their vision, try to look
beyond their personal impressions. What IS the reality
that is NOT colored by our personal feelings. On various
ocasions I gave her little excercizes to help "defocus"
her consciousness, to see things, through eyes of other or
to imagine how reality is "actually".

Finally after everything, we were saying good-byes and I
said OK, now remember your excersizes. "What excersizes?",
she said. "Looking at the world through different eyes,
seeing reality", I said. "Oh yeah" she said, I'll try.

GENE:
I am (somewhat uncomfortably) familiar with what you describe here.

It is hard to say this clearly, but, to advocate seeing the
distortions as being vital information, is a high and good service.
It is the personal reality which is the readout of the deeply held
assumptions which form the template which moment to moment, distorts
reality.

Most important, is what Buddha pointed to as being the actual cause
of suffering, the "assumption of incompleteness" (Dukkha).

It is the 'assumption of incompleteness' which Ramana alluded to in
his admonitions to seekers. Specifically, he indicated that it is the
assumption that one is not enlightened (or aware enough), which
initiates the sadness and the search.

So very many people carry unspoken, but otherwise expressed, the
assumption that they are not 'good enough'. Striving and seeking are
prime symptoms of the 'assumption of incompleteness', and are also
socially virtuous in the reality of the world-dream.

Seeing our own assumptions, may be difficult if we never say them in
words; this is why the distortions in our personal-dream are of such
high value. Our actions speak louder than our words; our enacted
lives explain our conditioning better than our words possibly can.

Passing this on is a good thing to do.

And never underestimate the power of denial.

DAVE:
The problem is, that the stuff that we all talk about
here, "is not real". Our problems are real, our feelings
are real. We meditate, the idea is expand the boundaries,
open consciusness, not focus in "me". Gene gave us the
answer. go find that.

We must believe that "all of this does not exist in the
way we think it does".

GENE:
Again, the 'way we think it does' is not to be thrown out like
yesterday's bathwater; rather, it can be savored like the finest of
champagnes. It certainly is more expensive than champagne!

DAVE:
There are techniques, yes, but the techniques are always
pointing to how to get to reality. Use the techniques to
see the reality that is NOT colored by your personal view.


GENE:
Thanks, Dave.

I advocate walking right into the inverter, now that I see that it is
harmless, if not painless.

PS: It is the stand-up comic, who masters the art of turning piss into wine.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MANCHINE:
Those who have awakened, have come to the realization, at least
in part, that what they see in front of their eyes is a miracle,
within which any burning bush would be commonplace.


MICHAEL:
In That Flame - i am consumed
The Lover knows no bounds!

Gleeful laughter rings in Life

Peace - Michael



MICHAEL:
This is Mine

All that is seen
Even in imagination
Is Mine.

The mighty do I set up
The lowly as well
Oh mind, put judgement aside
These are Mine.

Trials I give as love
Rewards are but ashes
All that is is Mine,
There is no Other.

Children and drunkards see me
The vain do not.
I hide my ever present Face
And play the game of Seek.

One flick of my finger
The world is put Aright;
The world in steeped in Darkness.
Drink in the sun and laugh!

No one escapes Me!
Nothing moves without Me!


Rare are those who drink my Wine!
They are Me.

Even those who seek me not
Yeah, they are Me!

Every scrap of dung
I Transform
This is Mine!
Yeah, you are Me!


Rejoice in Me;
Though I place you in the Dung
I hold you in My Hand!

Om. Shallah. Tat.
The secret tongue
Is known by all
I AM THAT ALL.

I set the worlds afire!

From the Awakening Heart - Mu