We begin with a repeat of a piece composed by John Metzger
and mistakenly attributed to Thomas Merton. My apologies to
John. Hey, Tom never looked so good!

_____________________________________________________________________


"solitude"
solitude, land of evening, declines and departs.  the abyss
of solitude's absence is its advent, its arrival.
solitude's claim to presence is not a form or outer
appearance but a persistence, an insistence-on.  solitude is
a realm, a domain that shelters, secures, conceals.
solitude is self-revealing and self-concealing.

Picasso remarked he had made himself an "unsuspected
solitude".its continuance is not tied to usage, need, or
custom.  to brook solitude is to think.  solitude is for
thinking, not singing.  solitude is expressly to collect
unique disclosure along the lines of Being, of
Appropriation.  the dawn of solitude comes to pass in events
of order/disorder, of jointure/disjunction.  solitude joins
but never conjoins.

its expanse is calls and gestures, belongings,hearings,
attunements, something spoken,conversation.  a
historiography of solitude is absurd except in relation to
destiny, destining, Fate.  solitude is an aspect of the
destining of Being.  the ground of solitude is a brilliant
abyss in which what lingers for a while can stay for the
time being or emerge much later.

it is not for protection.  its gathering is the one that
clears and shelters.  one's standard of solitude is one's
proximity to it, one's place in it.  for those whose abode
is solitude, it is a riddle and enigma, an enigmatic
keyword, a right, a justice, a wrong, an injustice.

it is reckless and considerate.  to dispatch oneself toward
solitude is never fitting.  there are no vocational skills
to acquire in solitude.  solitude, the fateful itself, is a
dispensation to beings to be Being.

solitude is the Same in beings, language, sayings.  to
translate solitude is to cross over, to go down, to set the
never-setting of unconcealment/concealment.

solitude is the surmounting of the oblivion of Being, the
perception of something at hand which appears to be not
representational thought but Being coming to the fore,
coming into view.  to preserve solitude is to hold sway,
reign, rule, dominate.

solitude occurs essentially in a belonging together, an
apportionment or allotment, of Being and beings, in the
unfolding of this twofold

--John Metzger

_______________________________________________________________________

This came from a Christian list - a friend sent it to me....

--Love,

Greg
=====================

   I asked God to take away my pain.
   God said, No.
   It is not for me to take away, but for you to give it up.

   I asked God to make my handicapped child whole.
   God said, No.
   Her spirit was whole, her body was only temporary.

   I asked God to grant me patience.
   God said, No.
   Patience is a by-product of tribulations; it isn't
granted, it is earned.

   I asked God to give me happiness.
   God said, No.
   I give you blessings.  Happiness is up to you.

   I asked God to spare me pain.
   God said, No.
   Suffering draws you apart from worldly cares and brings
you closer to me.

   I asked God to make my spirit grow.
   God said, No.
   You must grow on your own, but I will prune you to make
you fruitful.

   I asked for all things that I might enjoy life.
   God said, No.
   I will give you life so that you may enjoy all things.

   I ask God to help me LOVE others, as much as he loves me.
   God said... Ahhhh, finally you have the idea.

______________________________________________________________________

"I,I" - a freeform poem

I glow from within, lit by my own radiance.
The body, the mind, they are not mine.
Through ignorance I have become associated
with form, substance, dream.  I am not that.
There is nothing to describe me, no words.
No thoughts, no symbols.. I wear no clothing.
Nothing but Eternal peace and bliss, this,
One very moment... there is no other but I.

I, the reality, clothed in disguise...
OM, the bridge across forever.
I am the clear light of emptiness.
OM, the bow of the soul, empty of all
but what is real.

In me there are no distinctions,
no past-present-future, no here or there.
I am everywhere and nowhere, the light
that shines bright across the heart of Eternity.

In me is all that ever was, all that has ever been,
all that ever will be, in one eternal instant devoid of
time.
I cannot be described, nor thought of, nor dreamed of.
I cannot be imagined, nor felt, nor seen, nor heard.

The single timeless Eternal Fact I AM...
Devoid of form, of time, of causation.

Cross the bridge of OM to reach me,
the bridge across the ocean of dream.
Chant me, the no-chant OM, until
the dream ends.  Until the Reality begins.
Satchidananda I am, forever bliss-being-love.
Nowhere and everywhere I am, and you cannot see me.
You can only be me.

--Tim

______________________________________________________________________

Whenever it's thought of, there it is. I say this entity is
a mythical being, because it's a myth or a story, the entity
'andrew' is the ongoing story of a life.  Does a character
in a novel exist when the book is sitting on the shelf?  In
a way yes, in a way no.  There is the realization that a
story is all it is but I live in the story, the story lives
in me.
Because I am aware of this, self aware, I write my story,
'andrew' can be the person he wants to be, the hero of his
own story.  If I am not aware, then 'andrew' is not a
conscious being, he is more like an automaton, or an animal
operating on instinct.

andrew

``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

I hear you speaking from the 'interval', Andrew.  The
'neither this nor that' interval.  It's as though you've
split the Red Sea yet still like to surf once in a while, or
cast a line in.  The enlightenment 'experience' or
'happening' or 'event' (no word is correct) is something
like the constant appearance of that interval.


Jerry

______________________________________________________________________

Pathway of Nonduality, by Raphael

Chapter One

Non-dualism, Dualism and Monism

Every philosophical or cosmological vision which affirms two
opposing and irreducible principles to explain Reality is a
dualistic vision.

Philosophical dualism is an answer to the problem of Being,
which is considered double, being made of matter and spirit,
of ego and non-ego, eternally in opposition and independent
of one another.

Religious dualism, on the other hand, opposes two
priniciples in eternal conflict and 'antinomia'.  It
explains the presence of evil in the world and existence of
the world itself as the outcome of the constant struggle
between two eternal philosophies, the one called Good, the
other Evil. These two opposing principles are often
personified as God and Satan...  .

Every dualistic concept -- whether philosophical or
religious -- recognizes, in other words, two distinct
causes, or two independent 'substances', to use the words of
Aristotle, which due to their very nature can never meet,
never relate or resolve themselves.  This implies that -- at
the manifest level -- all contradictions, all antinomies,
which arise and exist, can never be resolved.  Two parallel
lines, however much they are drawn out, can never meet.

Evil, being an absolute Reality, just like Good, can never
be overcome gy Good, and vice-versa.

Dualism presents from the onset contradictions that cannot
be solved or supported.

Philosophical, religious or cosmological monism conceives
the multiplicity of manifestations as the effect of a sole
'substance'.  It is obviously opposed to both dualism and
pluralism.  For pluralism Reality is made not of two but of
several 'substances'.

Monism can be compared to the mathematical one from which
all numbers derive.  The multiplicity of numbers is simply
the multiplication of the one.

There is the materialistic monism for which only one
'substance' exists; matter, and all other categories,
including spirit and even consciousness, are the
epiphenomena of the one material 'substance'.  And there is
-- in total opposition to the former theory --
spiritualistic monism, for which all can be traced back to a
single 'substance' which is the Spirit.

For monism every existing element - of any type and at any
level whatsoever -- is real, because it represents the
emanation from or multiplication of the one sole Reality.
>From this standpoint we might say that monism is
pantheistic.  Thus, within the field of monism we have to
include Spinoza's pantheism which states the oneness of
'substance' and the identity of God and nature.

In realistic pantheism all antinomies, like good and evil
for example, although they go back to the original unity,
must be considered real and therefore they cannot -- on the
plane of manifestation -- dissolve or transcend.  Evil,
ignorance, unhappiness, limit, etc., are universal realities
about which nothing can be done by man, because they are
consubstantial with the One.  We can say the the One
contains within Itself the dialectics of opposites.  All
manifested effects, polar or dual as they may be, are
contained in the First Cause.  This means, naturally,
attributing the good-evil principle itself to the
One-Principle.

Q: What is monotheism?

Monotheism -- typical of religion -- affirms the existence
of a sole Divinity.  It is the opposite of polytheism and
fetishism.

Some religions admit of a number of gods to control the laws
of the universe as second principles.  However, as they are
made to derive from a sole supreme God who includes them
all, these religions may be considered to be fundamentally
monotheistic.

Here too emerges the impossibility of overcoming
consciential, psychological and formal dualism because this
is emanated, or created, by the One God.

If the world is Real, then it is not possible to change,
transform or redeem it.  It will never be possible to
rectify or redeem what really is.

`````````````````````````
Next: What is Non-dualism?  Maya.  Excerpt from Plotinus.

___________________________________________________________________

Reprinted from one year ago today.  Submitted by Gloria.


WHAT ARE THE DEGREES OF RELATIONSHIP WITHIN THE NONDUAL
PERSPECTIVE?


J: The first degree of relationship is Intuition.  One
intuits that his or her real nature is one with all that is.

The second degree of relationship is Recognition.  One has
"seen" nondual reality.

The third degree of relationship is Stability.  One "walks
in" nondual reality.

These three degrees: Intuition, Recognition, and Stability
exist in relation to each of the three nondual perspectives
considered in the first question.  One can intuit,
recognize, gain stability with nondual reality, whether via
Word Nondualism, Process Nondualism, or Ultimate
Nondualism.  In the following discussion I am using the I AM
as the name for the reality the nondual perspective would
know.

GP:That is an acceptable practice...convenient and
efficient, but it has to be noted as such, as an expedient
to getting the job of communication 'done'.

J: Some people approach the nondual perspective from the
disposition of Intuition.  They have a real feeling for what
the I AM is.  They know a part of them is pure spirit,
unchanging, perhaps that it is a portion of God.
The intuition would be strong enough to bring the person to
a spiritual path, to help guide a person.  Part of having
that intuition is that one's values are directed toward
enjoying silence and quiet being.  They are different from
many other people's values.

-- >>It is possible that the one who intuits I AM, still has
to live as though 'other people's values' are their own<<--.


GP:Yes...this is a challenge, a major challenge.  For me, it
has been somewhat like trying to succeed at working one of
those puzzles, a flat box with two little balls, which has
to be tilted in such a way, that each ball rolls to opposite
sides of the box at the same time.  It seems impossible,
when I am trying to do it.  I know that this personal/social
integration is a boggling proposition for a great many.  One
may succeed in bringing I Am to the forefront, where it
fills and shines, and cleanses and heals, but then when
social reality dawns once again, it may seem that I Am
becomes a flat, rusty remanant of something once-glorious.
The tendency to quickly assume that 'others' have caused
this regression is something to be aware of, and to
overcome.  Patience...and abiding, are called for.  A
history of hurt feelings and residual grief are like a foul
monkey upon one's back, spoiling the party.  Blame follows
resentment, and blame hammers boundaries into existence,
defining one as different from those other jerks.

J:> The one who intuits, knows the I AM from a distance.  As
something to be strived for.  As a retreat to visit from
time to time.  One's life may be colored by that intuition,
but that coloring hasn't penetrated life as yet.  It hasn't
seeped through.

GP:In my life, this intuition occurs (has occured) like the
sudden awareness of a powerful presence, which was unseen
until just now, and then recognized immediately as always
having been 'there' or 'here'.  Immediately intuited also,
is the realization that I was too distracted by my personal
dramas ("hey...nobody has showed up to change my diapers!"),
too busy doing important 'problem-solving' activities, to
pay attention to _Simply What Is_.

GP:For me (and this seems unusual...I mean, it seems rare),
the contrast between the 'realized' state and the
simultaneous realization of my own self-distraction, is very
clear.  In fact, it is shocking, jarring.  I have tried
(naively) to abolish the distracted/distracting state, to
disqualify the power of the noise and drama, for the purpose
of having ONLY the 'realized' state, 'purely that'.  But I
have learned a better way.  As long as the 'distracted
state' is available, also available is the _contrast_.
Now I need merely "look for" the contrast to also find the
powerful presence of I Am.  I now know that I am a native of
this place/state/experience.  This may seem (to certain
purists) like a confession of weakness, but it is what works
for me.  I have also taught it to others.  The momentary
jarring is a bit like passing through the 'sound
barrier'...a 'boom' of silence and then a 'bloom' of
sweetness and sweet irony, and laughter.  It tickles.  There
is more.

J:> A second relationship is Recognition.  This is an
intimate awareness of I AM or nondual reality.  Not merely
an intuition, the stage of Recognition allows one to see
existence as the I AM.  It may come as a full-blown mystical
experience or a flash of insight, a vision flash.  It is a
time when the colors of Intuition saturate and drip off all
that is, all existence.

GP:Well stated!  I love this poetic vision.  And it is here,
that I seem to diverge from the 'majority' of those who
write/talk about this stuff.  I don't really know, though.
Feedback is welcomed.

For me, the 'recognition' phase that you point out, is an
opening to a richness which I cannot describe in practical
terms.  It is "like" having the doors thrown open to a huge,
infinite 'feast-hall'.  If I look, what I see multiplies in
richness and delightful complexity, and it is like feeling
the most beautiful music.  Each 'thing' which occurs, upon
even the lightest examination, 'morphs' into such beautiful
complexity, that I can barely stand it, in its intensity of
revealed beauty and...meaning.  There is no static state of
Being here in this place, and I realize that I am That.  It
just keeps expanding, until the sun itself sings an
unbearably beautiful song of Being.  Words do not suffice.
Rumi resonates here.

Finally, it comes back upon itself, and explodes into a
statement of I Am, which is "like" the entire Universe in
Orgasm, glory Being.  It is when this occurs, that my vision
of 'others' with their heads held low, in fear and
suspicion, elicits such compassion, that only my heart
remains.

J:> Whereas one can live a stable existence from the
perspective of Intuition, the one who has recognized, who
has looked into the eyes of God, so to speak, will have a
hard time forgetting that.  A person has to deal with it.
For the nature of Recognition is instability.  It is an
insight and then a distancing from insight.  A failure to
stably retain insight.  So it is by nature unstable.

GP:You speak truely.  I abide this instability.  It is the
source of Holy Contrast which is the difference which leads
to No Difference.  It is good. I feel fortunate to have
found this instability.  I am joyed when another finds
(recognizes) this precious instability.

J:> The one whose relationship with nondual reality is one
of Recognition can speak very knowingly of the nature of
nondual reality, because he or she has seen.  The one who
still only Intuits, may feel distant from such reports.

GP:This may be true, but even so, it does not stop one from
describing experience.  "Is this it?" is frequently asked,
in hope, still searching for an imagined stability.
Stability is imagined to be realization, itself, which it is
not.  If it were, any fundamentalist idealist would be
totally realized, in accord with their total certainty and
(static) stability.

J:> Yet the one who but Intuits, may be better favored by
Grace.  The relationship that Recognition offers can be
difficult and frustrating.  A person firmly stabilized
within the relationship of Intuition and who is taught to
value that, will return to it after Recognition.

GP:Yes.  It is 'getting one's sea-legs', yes?  The pitch and
yaw of the ship is a constant occurance, although
unpredictable in detail.  Each circumstance of movement can
induce unbalance, yet there is a 'way of Being' which
automatically takes all movement into account.  Being able
to give attention during both calm and storm is 'stability',
if I understand what you are saying here.  And the gaining
of the 'sealegs' is the habituation to the constant of
change, and also the giving-up of the assumption that the
ship will ever dock in a 'better place' and discharge its
passengers onto stable land...an imagined state of
always-the-sameness.  (Although the 'possibility' of a
noncontrast state of Being is defined by some as
'Nirvanna'.  This is the "infinite regress" of the
"realization of no realizer" and the paradox that it brings,
like a wad of gum that one has to finally spit out.  Or
swallow, as the case may be.)

J:> The relationship of Stability is desired.  It is the
stage where one is in unceasing Recognition of the nondual
reality, the I AM.  For example, one would progress from
Intuition, to Recognition, back to Intuition, and then to
Stability, with other journeys to Recognition along the way.

GP:Yes, although my personal take on this is that stability
is dynamic rather than static.

J:> The one whose relationship is Recognition and who is
overcome by arrogance to return to mere Intuition, is bound
to suffer and wonder why he or she has not been favored by
Grace to win Stability.  Often these people negotiate that
seeming unfairness in positive ways through creative works,
or in negative ways through unacceptable escapes, or in both
positive and negative ways.  The key, though, is to return
to Intuition.  In this case, you can go back.  A person just
needs to be told they can go back.

GP:Absolutely!!!  Well said.  After all, it is only One
Day.  We have all the time we need :).

J:> When the relationship with nondual reality is one of
stability, then one is "walking in" a reality that is
nondual.The one who has achieved stability can recognize the
relationships of Intuition and Recognition. The one who
knows stability acts as anyone else does.  They may or may
not reveal the relationship they know.  They may pretend it
is just Intuition, or just Recognition.  It just depends on
whom they are communicating with.

GP:Yes.  This is revealed most excellently by you, O
CyberGuru.  I mean this quite sincerely.  You are breaking
new ground, in the linguistic approach to Nondualism.  Your
approach reveals your excellent sea-legs, your resiliant
dynamic balance.  It reveals one who has tired of the sound
of rigid structure cracking, and who has found the bending
of Grace far preferable.

Grace in movement...moves grace in others.  Amazing, is it
not, that 'textfile' can speak so?

J:> Spiritual life is the attentional work that it takes to
win that stability and then to grow within and beyond it.

GP:Yes.  One the 'habit' is acquired, it attends to
reprocess all experience to the essence of emptiness.  It is
a miracle watching that happen.

==Gene Poole==
______________________________________________________________________

I say it, and because I say, I am it.  No there is not
continuity there is now, even the memory, the myth is
happening now.

andrew

____________________________________________________________________

A long cry at midnight, a dying cry.
The young man sitting there says "that sound does not
frighten me."
He hears beyond his death fear to union.
He says, "It's that time for the merging in me now".
He jumps up and shouts to God, "if you can be human, come
inside me now, or it is time to leave my body".
The signal of a death yell splits him open.
Gold pours down, many kinds, from all directions.
The young man works all night carrying the gold away.
If you think that I am talking about actual gold, then you
are like children that pretend that pieces of broken dishes
are money.
This is the other gold that glows in your chest when you
love.
The young man is a moth who gambles himself and wins. A true
human being is not human. This candle does not burn.
It illuminates!

Excerpts from "Rumi, We Are Three" by Coleman Barks

--contributed by Ben

_______________________________________________________________________

>From Chuang tzu Chapter 6;

"Real people of ancient times did not oppose minorities, did
not lionize success, and did not scheme things up.  Being
thus, they were not sorry when they were wrong, and they
were not smug when they were right.
So they were not frightened in high places, did not get wet
in water, were not scorched by fire.

This is how knowledge can ascend to the Way.
Real people of ancient times slept without dreams, and awoke
without worries.  Their food was not sweet, their breathing
was very deep.
Real people breathe from their heels; ordinary people
breathe from their throats.

Those who are stifled speak from their throats as if
choking.  Those whose cravings and desires are deep are
shallow in their celestial potential.

Real people of ancient times did not know to like life and
hate death.  They came to life without rejoicing andwent to
death without resisting; they simply came unencumbered and
went unencumbered.  They did not forget their beginnings or
look for their end.  They accepted their lot gladly, then
returned it without minding.

This is called not diminishing the Way by the mind, not
trying to help the divine by means of the human.  Such are
called real people.
Those who are thus have a focused mind, a quiet countenance,
and a relaxed brow.  They are cool as autumn, warm as
spring; their emotions correspond to the four seasons.  They
have expedients for dealing with people, and none know their
limit."

--contributed by Andrew
______________________________________________________________________

I was walking down the street last night and just paying
attention.  But this time the attention went much deeper and
there was not a trace of judgment or any attempts to get
away from the thoughts&feelings.  It was so quiet as I heard
all those thoughts, on and on.

What was different was that I really saw that thought was
ultimately about fear.  Every single thought seemed to come
out of fear.  Even the thought that I had to get some food
at the grocery store.  These thoughts seemed to have a panic
quality -- always trying to get something or to 'cover my
ass' constantly.  it's subtle.  amazing.

I also noticed something important for me.  In addition to
judgment blocking this clear observation, I am often not
able to see due to analysis.  (ha, ha -- too much therapy
{the joke's on me}.  So last night for some reason, I backed
up about 20 steps and really saw what was going on NOW.  Not
what I thought was going on.  Does that make sense?
Although it may not sound like much for anyone else, it's
quite a revelation for me.

You have to get so close to "yourself" to see it.  Truly,
the reaching outward is in the wrong direction.  It's just
that I didn't realize it was so close as to actually become
it.  And don't ask me to explain that.  I can't.  Those
words came from some place else.

Perhaps a person to person meeting with Greg, a one on one
chat with Mira last night and a 'personal' email from Dave
have opened some doors.  Also, on Monday nite around 3 am I
awoke and out of the blue and thought, "all of my thoughts
are the past!".  then i went back to sleep.

Becky
______________________________________________________________________
...it seems that stand-up comedians (and comediennes) are
our fast-paced society's alternative to the old 'guru trip.'
I think Tim Leary, back in the '60s, coined the title
"stand-up philosopher" to describe the unique work he was
doing, viz., bringing metaphysical truth to the masses
through humor and outrageous behavior.

A really great comic, such as Steven Wright ...  can show us
truth that we wouldn't have the patience to listen to coming
from a dull, dry old teacher.  There are very few comics
like this.

Lenny Bruce was certainly one, and there was a wonderful
retrospective on his t.v.  work last month at the Museum of
Television and Radio in Beverly Hills.  It showed 90 minutes
of his television appearances with such people as Steve
Allen (another "stand-up philospher").  He was the first to
bring an incisive social consciousness to comedy, and thus
his controversiality.

Andy Kaufman was another.  I'm looking forward to "Man on
the Moon."

--Petros
____________________________________________________________________

"I remember the day I got drunk and flung open the doors to
the ladies room. Wait a minute, sorry, that was the day I
flung open the doors of perception."

--Jerry

These are some of the highlights from messages posted
Saturday, October 2, to the Nonduality Salon mailing list.

Hi. I hope nobody minds the rather dry but informative
selections from Pathway of Nonduality. I feel it reads like
a textbook on nondualism, and it has its place in that kind
of way.

Dan has been writing commentaries on the book, such as

Jerry (quoting Raphael):  "...the Supreme Reality always
identical to itself."

Dan:  This is the point -- it is always identical to Itself,
and It is always all that is.  So what then does it mean for
something to be nonidentical to Itself?  Even when it is
(appearing to be) nonidentical to Itself, it is identical to
Itself.  There is nothing to be solved (no need to "solve"
maya), nothing to be seen through, no problem at all -- That
*is* "seeing through"...

All his commentaries will appear on the web pages on which
the excerpted book will appear.

______________________________________________________________________

Pathway of Nonduality

By Raphael

Chapter One: Nondualism, Dualism, and Monism (continued)

Q.  What is Nondualism then?

Nondualism is neither monism nor monotheism and, of course,
it is not dualism.

Since monism might be compared to the mathematical one and
the latter to multiplicity, in order to avoid
misunderstandings the term 'nondual' is used.  In other
words, the unity that is not multipliable, which does not
generate or is not mathematical is called nondual.  This
nondual unity may be considered as belonging to the
metaphysical order.

>From the mathematical one, which is the generating principle
of the total series of numbers, we arrive at the
metaphysical One which is beyond all possible numerical
nomenclature.

If for monism and dualism the universe-object is created by
or emanates from the First Cause, for nondualism the
universe-object is neither creation nor emanation, but a
simple maya-phenomenon shown upon the screen of the universe
or of the individual by the projecting power of what we call
'mind'.  Thus, for example, our dreams or imagination --
whether sleeping or waking -- are simply mayika projections
that have no absolute reality and therefore may dissolve at
any moment.  The universe is a continuum-discontinuum that
can be resolved and transcended.  It is not, therefore, a
creation -- in the sense generally given to this term --
because the Supreme Reality, being complete in itself, does
not need to create.  Nor is it an emanation because the
Supreme Reality does not exhaust itself in the manifest, nor
does it transform itself to become other than what it is.

An individual, planetary or cosmic body-form is the effect
of a movement which, were it to cease, would cause the form
to disappear.

The universe is a 'dream' (but this term must not be taken
literally).  We have a body and we are moving, because we
are dreaming.  If we wish to emerge from all consciential,
psychological and formal dualism, we must wake up and stop
the movement.  It is not Reality in itself that causes
dualism, but it is the 'movement' of the jiva (the living
soul) which in turn is a projection of the Absolute Self.
Likewise, when we are in a train it is not the landscape
outside that moves but the train and we, and because of maya
we attribute the movement to trees and the fields.  From
this point of view, the mathematical one and dualism are not
absolute realities for nondualism.  They are not
'substances' but 'appearances' and as such they can be
transcended and solved.  'Evil', but also 'good'.  is not a
reality in itself, it is not 'substance' but 'appearance', a
particular movement, but it can be solved and transcended.
The universe of names and forms is not something in itself,
it is not a reality that lives by its own life, it is not
Being, it is simply movement (apparent if seen from the
point of view of the Absolute Reality) which causes
non-substantial event-things.  Our nightly dreams are not
absolute realities, are not eternal, are not 'substantial',
have no origin and nowhere to go.  They are only phenomena
projected by the mind upon the immobile screen of our
being.  To say that a dream Is the individual himself or
that the individual exhausts himself in the dream, or again,
that the dream is eternal and immortal means pushing things
too far.  What cause the vital 'appearance', these worlds --
apparently solid and immortal - is maya.

Between the Real and non-real (which appears real) stands
maya.  It is sufficient to eliminate maya to discover a sole
'substance', that is, the Supreme Reality always identical
to itself.)

______________________________________________________________________
Pathway of Nonduality

By Raphael

Chapter One: Nondualism, Dualism, and Monism (concluded)

Q.  But can maya be studied empirically and consciously?

When we want to study our dreams consciously an unexpected
event occurs: we awaken and wakefulness dispels our dream as
if by magic.  The ego and the non-ego of the dream (duality)
disappear.

When we wish to examine empirically the snake we have seen
insted of a rope, the snake disappears and we are left with
the rope.

When we try to examine maya consciously, this disappears
taking with it all dualism and antinomia, and in its place
we find Being, Reality and the Absolute Constant.

Maya cannot be observed or analyzed empirically because it
is not reality.

Wanting to 'see' or 'trace' maya is like looking in the air
for the trace left by a passing bird, says Samkara.  Though
not seen, it can be resolved and transcended by means of
vidya, metaphysical knowledge.

We ascribe reality and truth to things because we believe
them to be real and true, capable of granting satisfaction
and fulfillment.  In doing so we become alienated as our
completeness and happiness are dependent on something other
than ourselves.  But the 'other' is a mere fancy, a
non-substance unable, for its particular nature, to grant
pax profunda.  For nonduality the basic error is believing
in things that, all considered, are not.  In order to
eliminate this error, due to avidya or invalid knowledge, we
need vidya or noetic knowledge.

Q.  We might say that the world of names and form can be
transcended and solved by the power of Knowledge (vidya),
might we not?

As long as the 'snake' is seen and perpetuated by the
projective power of the mind, it is considered as existing,
real and substantial.  Only when we awaken and recognize the
true 'rope-being', the 'snake' disappears without leaving a
trace.  Thus, for nondualism the world of names and forms is
real and non-real, depending upon the point of view from
which it is observed and considered.

Q.  Has the metaphysical One been seen and pointed out only
by the Vedic Tradition?

The Vedic Tradition is only a branch of the One Tradition.
The Tradition of the Sacred Mysteries of ancient Greece --
above all the Orphic Tradition -- recognized the
metaphysical One, even though this truth was revealed only
at the very last levels of the Great Mysteries.

It is sufficient to go back to Plotinus, who took up and
gave new life to the ancient Mysteric Tradition.  He says:

"...the One must be without form.  But if it is without form
it is not a substance, for a substance must be something
particular, something, that is, defined and limited; but it
is impossible to apprehend the One as a particular thing,
for then it would not be a principle, but only that
particular thing which you said it was.  But if all things
are in that which is generated [from the One], which of the
things in it are you going to say that the One is?  Since it
is none of them, it can only be said to be beyond them.  But
these things are beings, and being: so it is 'beyond being'.

This phrase 'beyond being' does not mean that it is a
particular thing -- for it makes no positive statement about
it -- and it does not say its name, but all it implies is
that it is 'not this'.  But if this is what the phrase does,
it in no way comprehends the One.  It would be absurd to
seek to comprehend that boundless nature, for anyone who
wants to do this has to put himself out of the way of
following at all, even the least distance, in its traces;
but just as he who wishes to see the intelligible nature
will contemplate what is beyond the the perceptible if he
has no mental image of the perceptible, so he who wishes to
contemplate what is beyond the intelligible will contemplate
it when he has let all the intelligible go.  He will learn
that it is by means of the intelligible, but what it is like
by letting the intelligible go.  But this 'what it is like'
must indicate that it is 'not like', for there is no 'being
like' in what is not a 'something'.  But we in our travail
do not know what we ought to say, and are speaking of what
cannot be spoken, and give it a name because we want to
indicate it to ourselves as best we can."

"...but that has no shape, not even intelligible shape...
It is not therefore something or qualified or quantitative
or intellect or soul; it is not in movement or at rest, not
in place, not in time, but 'itself by itself of single
form', or rather formless, being before all form, before
movement and before rest, for these pertain to being and are
what make it many .
...'One' must be understood in a larger sense than that in
which a unity and point are unified....And it must be
understood as infinite not because its size and number
cannot be measured or counted but because its power cannot
be comprehended.  For when you think of it as Intellect or
God, it is more." (Enneads: V, 5, vi; VI,
9,iii-vi)
___________________________________________________________________
The
Pathway of Nonduality

by Raphael

Chapter 2

Real and Non-Real

Q.  What is meant by real and non-real in Samkara's Advaita
and Gaudapada's Asparsavada?

A.  The problem of real and non-real, of Being and non-being
is very complex, therefore one gets different answers
depending upon the point of view from which one looks at the
question.  ...

Let us take a body-form, a cloud in the sky, for example.
Is it real or non-real?  Is a dream real or non-real?  Some
hold that it is real, others hold that it is not, and still
others that it is both real and non-real.  It all depends
upon one's point of view, on one's own position of
consciousness or the particular system of coordinates which
one is using to analyze things.

Those who hold that a cloud in the sky ...  is real, trust
in a knowledge of an empirical, perceptive-sensory kind, in
knowledge by means of the five senses.  If an object can be
seen, touched, tasted they say then it cannot be held to be
unreal or an illusion.  What can be touched and seen is
there, it occupies a place, it lasts in time and can be
observed and experienced by all.

Those who hold that things do not exist conceive reality as
non-sensory, non-material and non-substantial.  For them ...
ontological reality is exclusively ideal.  Things enjoy no
reality of their own and the Spirit-Being cannot be the
object of sensorial knowledge, because it is beyond the
senses.  There pure Being exists while all that is not Being
is unreality.

Those who maintain that things are real and unreal --
synthesizing the other two points of view -- have a
particular conception of reality which must be examined
because it is not as superficial and reductive as the first
two concepts.

...If our senses see, touch and perceive we cannot obviously
say that they touch and see 'nothing'.  Nothing -- like the
horns of a hare or a barren's woman child -- cannot be
perceived, touched or seen by any of the senses, however
perfect they may be.  Therefore we cannot support the theory
of those who hold that the senses perceive 'nothing' or that
things do not exist.  However, at this stage we must get
into the matter more and make a number of points.

To think that nothing exists beyond objectivity because the
senses or figurative thinking cannot perceive it means
either being absolutist or onesided or else it mean refusing
to investigate and find a solution to the problem.  Things
-- a cloud in the sky -- appear and disappear, they are and
they are not, they come and go, they are born and they die.
In other words, they change continually.  The senses
themselves that see and touch soon cease to touch and see
because the objects disappear.

On the other hand, it is legitimate to ask: what do our eyes
really see? What our retina perceives as an image is a
series of luminous vibrations which come from things outside
us.  When our senses see or touch things, they are not
seeing-touching the things in themselves but rather their
images given to the retina or to the tactile organs by their
vibrations.

The mind -- as the sixth sense -- translates and interprets
the images obtained by the retina but not the thing in
itself.  Our truth springs from the interpretation or
translation of a sensorial image.

Besides -- as we have already mentioned -- the vibrations
caused by things are not constant, are not absolute, because
they are subject to endless, vibratory modifications and the
image we perceive, as a result, is altered too.  Matter
undergoes continuous change, it is a force-field and
therefore it is impossible to grasp the thing itself.

>From this point of view then, a cloud in the sky certainly
is perceived, but a moment later one must admit that it is
no longer perceived.  This is a matter fact, this is
evident.

It is an empirical fact of experience.  Therefore, how can
we say that things are real and absolute?  A true and
genuine reality must always be seen, perceived and found,
within and outside of time, and in every place.  If the said
reality appears to our senses and then disappears like a
flash or a mirage, to what extent can we say that it is
real?

To consider absolute-real what appears and disappears
inevitably means wanting to force matters.  On the other
hand, the empiricists do not accept dreams as real, and yet
dreams are perceived by the senses just like any other
thing.

We err when we say we know things because ...  we only know
the image we have of things.  And we even know that this
image is subject to alteration and change in time and space.

Reality, fragmented into indefinable and fleeting phenomena,
does not guarantee the stability and certainty of knowledge,
but leaves it a prey to gnawing relativism, incapable of
determination.  Thought dies in anguish, losing itself in
frustrating aporias and contradictions.

We must also say that the empiricists recognize all this,
but as they do not wish to arrive at the point reached by
the pure idealists, and as they are attached to their own
point of view, they are obliged to make the following
paradoxical statement: Reality is appearance, relativity and
change.  But this statement does not seem to be reasonable
for the simple reason that if everything is relative and
changing then even the statement 'all is relative' is
relative.

If an entity is relative and not constant, how can it state
an absolute reality or a reality of any other order and
dimension?  In other words, a relative entity can only state
relative truths.  Thus, what the empiricist sees and touches
sensorially is not Reality with a capital R, but a simple
phenomenon that appears and disappears.  However, a
phenomenon is not pure nothing, it is the effect of a
particular movement which determines the apparition of a
body-form, of an event that is not 'substance'.  This
movement, in turn, is an effect because its existence is the
outcome of relation.

If the empiricist is obliged to consider all as relative and
non-permanent, then his idea coincides, in part, with the
Advaita point of view, that is, with a point of view which
is apparently the very opposite of his own.  Opposites meet
when one tries to really understand them.

(to be continued)
___________________________________________________________________

From: "Petros"

http://home.earthlink.net/~chalquist/ego.html

by Craig Chalquist, M.S.

Some Symptoms or Contributing Factors of Transpersonal
Ego-Inflation

1.Pompous, abstract, high-flown verbiage that sounds deep
but says little ("We are entering a new era of tremendous
growth potential and/or utilization of
God-consciousness...");

2.Excessive use of New Age-style clichés; lack of concrete
personal self-references;

3.Use of spiritual experiences for self-intoxication and
mood-altering (usually accompanied by brief but intense
compensatory periods of sadness or depression);

4.Seeing the unconscious or the spiritual realm as a
personal possession requiring conquest, invasion, or
penetration, perhaps accompanied by dreams of committing
theft or being exiled;

5.Fantasies of one's extraordinary historical significance;

6.Denial of human, all-too-human states of mind like anger,
frustration, ignorance, or confusion accompanied by a
certainty of having worked through or evolved beyond them
(may be accompanied by shadow attack nightmares);

7.A cold-eyed charisma combined with impenetrable
impersonality and a lecturing tone;

8.Excessive or stilted displays of "humility" or "modesty";

9.Emotional isolation; an absence of grounded, real, warm,
fun relationships;

10.Preoccupation with "deep" matters to the detriment of
everyday demands (e.g., leaving bills unpaid, ignoring
friends or family, neglect of health or personal
appearance);

(etc.  see site.)
_____________________________________________________________________

There is nothing to realize, except that which is already
so.  To me, that was the great surprise!
Wow!  What have I been thinking all this time?  What was I
so busy understanding all the time?
A blow big enough to kill whatever you thought you were.
But such comfort to embrace yourself in that which you were
all the time anyway........
Indeed, just pay attention......  What more can be said?

--Mira
_____________________________________________________________________

Add Ishmael and Queequeg (to list of Nondual People):

From;

ISHMAEL AND AHAB: An Introduction to Moby Dick

by Alfred Kazin

(Introduction to Houghton Mifflin 'Riverside' edition of
Moby-Dick)


"...It is Ishmael who, in the wonderful chapter on the
masthead, embodies for us man as a thinker, whose reveries
transcend space and time as he stands watch high above the
seas.  And of course it is Ishmael, both actually and as the
symbol of man, who is the one survivor of the voyage.  Yet
utterly alone as he is at the end of the book, floating on
the Pacific Ocean, he manages, buoyed up on a coffin that
magically serves as his life-buoy, to give us the impression
that life itself can be honestly confronted only in the
loneliness of each human heart.  Always it is this emphasis
on Ishmael's personal vision, on the richness and ambiguity
of all events as the sceptical, fervent, experience-scarred
mind of Ishmael feels and thinks them, that gives us, from
the beginning, the new kind of book that Moby-Dick is.  It
is a book which is neither a saga, though it deals in large
natural forces nor a classical epic, for we feel too
strongly the individual who wrote it.  It is a book that is
at once primitive, fatalistic, and merciless, like the very
oldest books, and yet peculiarly personal, like so many
twentieth-century novels, in its significant emphasis on the
subjective individual consciousness.  The book grows out of
a single word, 'I', and expands until the soul's voyage of
this 'I' comes to include a great many things that are
unseen and unsuspected by most of us.
And this material is always tied to Ishmael, who is not
merely a witness to the story—someone who happens to be on
board the Pequod—but the living and germinating mind who
grasps the world in the tentacles of his thought.


...  As his name indicates, he is an estranged and solitary
man; his only friend is Queequeg, a despised heathen from
the South Seas.  Queequeg, a fellow 'isolato' in the smug
world of white middle-class Christians, is the only man who
offers Ishmael friendship, thanks to Queequeg, 'no longer my
splintered heart and maddened hand were turned against the
wolfish world.  This soothing savage had redeemed it'."

--contributed by Andrew

___________________________________________________________________

"..."Why, thou monkey," said a harpooneer to one
of these lads, "we've been cruising now hard upon
three years, and thou hast
not raised a whale yet. Whales are scarce as hen's
teeth whenever thou art up here." Perhaps they
were; or perhaps there might
have been shoals of them in the far horizon; but
lulled into such an opium-like listlessness of
vacant, unconscious reverie is this
absent-minded youth by the blending cadence of
waves with thoughts, that at last he loses his
identity; takes the mystic
ocean at his feet for the visible image of that
deep, blue, bottomless soul, pervading mankind and
nature; and every strange,
half-seen, gliding, beautiful thing that eludes
him; every dimly- discovered, uprising fin of some
undiscernible form, seems to him
the embodiment of those elusive thoughts that only
people the soul by continually flitting through
it. In this enchanted mood, thy
spirit ebbs away to whence it came; becomes
diffused through time and space; like Cranmer's
sprinkled Pantheistic ashes,
forming at last a part of every shore the round
globe over.

There is no life in thee, now, except that rocking
life imparted by a gently rolling ship; by her,
borrowed from the sea; by the
sea, from the inscrutable tides of God. But while
this sleep, this dream is on ye, move your foot or
hand an inch; slip your hold
at all; and your identity comes back in horror.
Over Descartian vortices you hover. And perhaps,
at mid-day, in the fairest
weather, with one half-throttled shriek you drop
through that transparent air into the summer sea,
no more to rise for ever.
Heed it well, ye Pantheists!"

Moby Dick, from Chap. xxxv (THE MASTHEAD)

--contributed by Andrew
___________________________________________________________________

From: "Petros" <xristos@...>

A couple of selections from _Teachings of the Prophet Joseph
Smith_, just in time for General Conference.

"All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning
of creation who say that the spirit of man had a beginning,
prove that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is
true, then the doctrine of annihilation is true; but if I am
right, I might with boldness proclaim from the housetops
that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at
all; God himself could not create himself; intelligence is
eternal, and exists upon a self-existent principle; it is a
spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about it.
The mind or intelligence which man possesses is co-equal
with God himself.  I know that my testimony is true."

"Here then is eternal life: To know the only wise and true
God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves,
and to become Kings and Priests unto God, the same as all
Gods have done before you; namely, by going from one small
degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one;
from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until
you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to
dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do
those who sit enthroned in power."

"If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible; the
Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom
and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to
refute it.  I defy all the world to destroy the work of God;
and I prophesy that they will never have power to kill me
till my work is accomplished and I am ready to die."
____________________________________________________________________

What could be the "secondary effects" of a natural, nondual
state?  A quiet, cool state of bliss (not caused by
hormones), independent of vicissitudes?  No longer being
burdened by questions and the always unsatisfactory
answers?  A clear mind that no longer knows the meaning of
blaming and forgiving, "I" and "mine"?  How about feelings
that will only arise when appropriate, without these
feelings carrying expectations or the result of past
experiences, whether "good" or "bad"?  How about a memory
that will only supply data when addressed to do so?  Not to
forget the peace of being, having nowhere to go, nowhere to
hide and nowhere to stay.  The absence of motives living a
"life of their own", causing one to be dragged hither and
tither by them, like a mandarin by his 9 wives :)

Enjoying the above "secondary effects" for about 30 years,
whether or not they have anything to do with nonduality, has
become utterly irrelevant :)))

Jan

____________________________________________________________________
Just a note - at a Francis Lucille talk last night in NYC, I
saw Becky and Nora and a very nice getleman named Lou (sp?),
who announced himself as an NDS lurker.  Nora actually had
an NDS T-shirt on (and all this time I thought you guys were
joking about them!)

Taking the ball into my own hands totally un-asked - let me
voice something that we all spoke briefly about.
Get-togethers.

1.  Nora lives in Philadelphia and would like to gather in
some form or fashion with others.  The perfume of love,
gratitude and friendship is great when this happens (we've
been doing teacherless satsangs weekly in NYC for 2 years).
She's thinking of inviting a travelling teacher there - or
maybe there are other NDS-ers who live in the area.  I
volunteered to travel out there to help get things going.

2.  Lou lives in Long Island and is having a meeting in the
near future along the lines of Douglas Harding's teachings.
I think (correct me here Lou if I got it wrong) that he was
interested in more folks coming.

Whaddya all say?

Love,

--Greg

___________________________________________________

Nonduality Salon Website
http://www.nonduality.com
Nonduality Salon Email Forum
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/nondualitysalon
Nonduality Salon Chat
http://www.eScribe.com/religion/nondualitysalon/chat
Nonduality Salon List of Nondual People
http://www.nonduality.com/morea.htm
Encyclopedia of Nonduality
http://www.nonduality.com/context.htm

Student:  "Master, I don't have anything at all."
Master:   "Good, now throw it away."
Student:  "But if I don't have anything, how can I throw it away?"
Master:   "Well, then keep it!"

Koan posted by Greg.
______________________________________________________________________

Judi lets loose:

And while we are on this subject here, I would like to say something
about this "neti-neti" horsepukky and that whole insane idiotic
teaching. To say that we are not our bodies, we are not our minds, we
are not our emotions, we are not this, we are not that, we are not, we
are not, we are not!!  BULLSHIT!!! What are you trying to do, reduce
yourself to god knows what....so it won't hurt anymore?? When I was out
at Todd and Sharon's yesterday we were talking about this very point and
some people we know that have painted themselves into this "neti-neti"
corner and how hard it is, not to mention how obnoxious these people
are, to be able to deal with these people at all. As far as I'm
concerned they might as well just pack it in right now, because they're
as good as dead anyway. They have no vitality, no appreciation for life,
no humor, no love, no nothing, because they are "neti-neti" - dead!  And
they think they are sooo smart! Excuse me while I puke, oh, geez, excuse
me, it looks like I puked all over your shoes....sorry... :-)
_______________________________________________________________________

Mira:

He who sees clearly, is not even able to either identify or dis-identify
with anything. There is no separate identity, (and there never was), in
order to proceed in taking a distance from 'it'. Mind may play, but this
is only its playful nature. If mind were not Self, then what is it?
________________________________________________________________________

Becky:

I heard Francis Lucille on Friday night. I asked him about having
experienced (what do you call it??) freedom, seen the way thought works,
etc. He said a lot of things, one of them being that I had turned this
"state" into an object more or less and subsequently became attached to
it. Thus, the thought that I had lost it, however incorrect. (Greg,
please clarify if I misunderstood him).

Greg:

Yes, I agree.  I think you did understand his comment.  Francis's
comments come experience, and from Jean Klein and Sri Atmananda.  And my
experience is the same:  All thoughts and states are objects.  What
makes it an object is that it (i) is seen or known, and (ii) it comes
and goes.

Becky:

What is a state really then? Is that all there is, different states of
being? Is it the same as feelings?

Greg:

A state is the way the mind or body seems to be.  The difference between
a state and a feeling is really that states are long, feelings are
short.  They both come and go.  In fact, the mind and body themselves
are nothing more than bundles of thoughts and feelings and sensations.

When we prefer one state to another, that preference is an attachment
(it's another feeling too).  The attachment is to something that is no
longer there.  What we really are however, our true nature, is not a
state or a feeling.  It is That which is aware of states, thoughts,
feelings.  It is That which is reading these words now.  So it cannot be
seen.  It can never be an object, and never was.

What we truly are, we can never lose; it never goes away.  We ARE it!
We say we "lose" something because it went away.  This is why Francis it
is incorrect that you had "lost" it.  Yes, a state or feeling went
away.  But YOU were there all the time.
________________________________________________________________________

Phillip Burton:

When one is in pain, it's not possible to "face" it.  The pain must be
relieved and then the cause of pain can be faced on another level.
"Neti, neti" means understanding what I am not.  What does it mean that
I am not the body, not the mind?  It means that "body" and "mind" are
not fixed entities or objects with which one can reasonably identify.
It is even possible to say "body" and "mind" do not exist.  The quotes
are used to emphasize that talking about them is talking about concepts,
not about realities.  You speak of "my body" and thus separate from the
body of the cosmos, the body of the universe.  Body is form and form is
appearance. Appearance is illusion, because illusion is something
grasped that vanishes upon grasping.  The only "real" body is the
ever-changing display of consciousness as a whole.  To illustrate what I
mean ... I will be in attendance at my funeral, as I am Life itself ...
how could I not be there?  There will be birds singing ... that is I.
________________________________________________________________________

Movies:


Tomas Diaz de Villegas:

I got another one for the nonduality movie list- just saw it this
weekend-
"American Beauty" and, it was beautiful. I give it two thumbs up.
go out and see it- have fun!


Petros:

Yes, it was excellent.

I also recommend "Breakfast of Champions," with Bruce Willis. It's based
on the Kurt Vonnegut novel about a car dealer and small-town celebrity
who suffers a crisis of identity (early in the film he asks himself "Who
Am I?") and basically goes wacko until he encounters a science fiction
writer whose novel (in the form of a letter written from God to
humanity) explains the mystery of the universe, viz., "I put you here as
a test to see how much you can take."

It is getting lousy reviews, but I enjoyed the concept of the film. I
presume Vonnegut's book is far more complex and I plan to read it.
________________________________________________________________________

Dan:

Honestly, it seems simpler to me just not to be a person if you're not.
This alleviates all the strain in acting as a person so you can
celebrate that you're not one.  Of course, then there's no strain, but
there's no celebration either.  It's just more direct and simple that
way :-)  Now, in being direct like this, there doesn't seem to be any
"act" from which to "alleviate others' suffering."  Isn't that
inevitable though?  If I am following your perspective - at some point,
suffering becomes an ungrounded nonreality, based on nothing, and
therefore the concept of alleviating suffering becomes meaningless.
This raises the question of whether there is some kind of helping that
has no intention to help anyone, has no aversion toward hurt, and some
kind of being with others that doesn't need to be with others.  It seems
to me that ultimately that's where we're going here...
________________________________________________________________________

I just love real-life get-togethers.  Maybe we should all
plan to meet somewhere in a central point.  Like Kansas.  I
am in Texas.  ;)

Phil

#~ Phil Burton #~ phi@... #~
http://www.well.com/~phi
_______________________________________________________________________
Mira wrote:
Dear Glo, I would like to go more indepth into this with
you, or with anyone out here, who has been living in the
nondual state for a longer period of time than I have.


Greg responded:
You are discussing some very important questions here.  It
seems like you're asking what happens after, what about
suffering, what about others, what kind of helping, what
kind of speaking, activities take place?


It will be different for different people.  I'll talk about
this as though there are really people and motives and
feelings and actions and ideas Out There.  Everything takes
place as though these things are inherently existent.  It
can't be said that any of it IS existent, but in the
everyday sense it all goes on.


In my case, there was first the turning towards intellectual
understanding to grasp what had happened.  After that, quite
naturally and organically, the inclination has been growing
towards compassion, understanding it and acting and living
it.
There is no longer any reason to give more weight to Greg's
affairs over any other being's.  Living for the good of all,
to relieve suffering and to enhance peace and well-being for
all.  And I'm very bad at this.


Compassion is something I had never been very good at.  In
my family, our manners and lovingkindness are not very kind
or other-directed.  We're sort of selfish and introverted.
But against this background, I'm being pulled toward empathy
and helping others in whatever way I can, however it comes
up, and however inept and stumblingly I may do it.  This
fragrance, however, is spreading to more and more of life.


I see perfection in the overall workings of compassion
(which is the workings of all that is), and which is
miraculously and gloriously working by itself.  Look at any
one slice of life and I wouldn't say that this slice is
perfect, but the entire web of interrelatedness is perfect
and cannot be different from the way it is - so how can it
be less or other than perfect?


The overall web includes the pull in my mind and heart to
learn more about compassion and live it, for the good of all
beings.
At the same time that I'm doing various things to bring this
forward, I don't see it as a striving or a goal-oriented
doingness - but rather an outcome of the overall
perfection.  So it feels like celebration, even as I just
barely begin to learn ways of allowing compassion to work
through me.


Others are different.  Here are cases I know of in friends,
after the understanding dawned:


-Jon moved to San Diego with his girlfriend, is a house
painter with a brilliant intellect, reading Nagarjuna and
Zen.  He would love to talk to someone local about this
stuff instead of burning up the phone lines talking to me.


-Jerry, also in San Diego, former student of Jean Klein,
lives a quiet content and loving life as a carpenter and
homebuilder, has raised two children in the light of this
understanding.


-Michael, is moving to Florida, working at a television
station, is a dear helpful person who volunteers at a
shelter for people with terminal diseases.  He likes to talk
about this stuff to anyone at the drop of a hat.
A long time seeker, now that he no longer feels like a child
at the back of the class, he's been changing his wardrobe
and is open to finding a girlfriend.


-Doug teaches Philosophy at an Upstate NY college, and has
begun to integrate his professional teaching and writing
with this kind of understanding, which takes a Buddhist tone
for him.  (he has tenure already!)


Some turn right to teaching.  Some never teach, like Jerry,
they hardly ever talk about this with others.


____________________________________________________________________

Anybody know of a nice cave somewhere in the Himalayas?
The puzzles of the mind really make laugh.
And it is still trying to resolve it...:-)


Love always,

Mira

There is a cave that doesn't require traveling.
It is the coolest place to reside and the stay is free.
In the so called "cave of the Heart" one doesn't require a
thing.
The "cave of the Heart" is the place for just to "Be".


Jan

_____________________________________________________________________
We
We are proud to announce a new and important web page:
Non-dualism and Western Philosophers, introduced and edited
by Greg Goode.


Greg says:
"Many of our most stubborn and cherished dualities are the
product of Western philosophy!  In using the Western
philosophical method, we are employing a medication that
comes from the same part of the world as the disease.  We
don't have to swallow the doctor's entire kit bag, just the
particular pill for our problem.  For example, here is how
Western philosophers can help with some of the more
intransigent Western dualities.  This list is certainly not
exhaustive!"


Please click on the link below to continue with Greg's
thought:


<a href="http://www.nonduality.com/western.htm">

Thank you, Greg.  We look forward to periodic additions to
your web page.


--Jerry
____________________________________________________________________
There is just no one suffering, inspite of all the twisted
ways that this mind is trying to turn it upside down, inside
out, I find no persons, no separation, only love.  My
interaction with people is natural and very direct.  There
is no intervention of 'should be's, they do not get time to
be considered, for the acting is too spontaneous.  It is
witnessing the judgemental, categorizational activities of
this mind that leave me absolutely stunned.

Wow.  What an imagination!  I admire it, for this mind does
its utmost to create confusion and separation, it does
attack from all sides.  But the one that admires all this is
never even the least bit affected.  It is this one that
knows the king is naked.


--Mira
_____________________________________________________________________

Patanjali (comments between round brackets by Purohit Swami)
dedicates several sutras to the big trouble maker called
mind:
(11, II) The grosser afflictions disappear through
meditation.
(10,II) The finer afflictions disappear as mind disappears
in illumination.  [The "movement" towards factual
nonduality.  As mind revolves around "I & mine & doing",
mind is said to be nonexistent when the "I" has
disappeared.] (24,III) The mind is coloured with innumerable
desires, and as mind and desires work hand in hand, it
follows that mind works to please someone else, (Mind is an
agent working on behalf of its master.) [Wanting to "improve
the world" is as much a desire as wanting to be rich]
(25,III) He who sees clearly, refuses to identify mind with
Self.  (He finds that mind is not the doer, mind is not the
knower, mind is not the enjoyer.)

(26,III) Intent on discrimination, his mind longs for
liberation.  [Liberation, Being, without the shackles of the
mind, therefore it isn't a desire in the proper sense]
(27,III) Sometimes in Illumination, impressions of the
waking mind intervene.  (The condition of Illumination is
the condition of unlimited joy.  Sometimes the limitations
of waking mind shake the overflying joy.)[The impressions
will revolve around "otherness", like lecturing, preaching
to "enlighten the world" etc.] (28,III) They should be
destroyed as afflictions are destroyed.

Finally, don't forget (22,II): The seen is dead to him who
has attained liberation, but is alive to others, being
common to all.  (If one man gets liberation, it does not
follow that the world becomes free.  Every man has to
struggle for himself.
Because men have the same desires, they have the same
playing ground.)

The moral is, unless it is possible to offer help etc.
spontaneously, helping isn't possible.  Don't use the mind
to "solve the problems of the world" - it won't work.

--Jan
____________________________________________________________________

The Pathway of Non-duality

by Raphael

Chapter Two: Real and Non-real (concluded)



At this point, let us examine the point of view mentioned
before which states that only Being exists and not becoming.



When examining the empiricists' view, we stated that it is
impossible to reject things altogether.  However, we
concluded that what we know is not reality but
phenomenon-becoming or the mental and individual
interpretation of the said phenomenon.  And if all we see
and touch is phenomenon-movement, there must be a factor
upon which such phenomenon-movement depends.  It is not
possible to see phenomenon-effects that do not depend upon
causes-principles.  Becoming, being abaliety, cannot depend
upon that very same becoming.



How can we know the Being that lies behind the phenomenon
and behind mental-sensory interpretation?  That Being which
the empiricists would like to touch and see as if it were a
phenomenon-object?



If a phenomenal object can be seen and touched with equally
relative, phenomenal and objective tools, Being as pure
Subject can only be known through Being, through
consciousness of self as Subject-Being, in so far as Being
is not an 'object'.



When we eliminate or transcend phenomenon-becoming, Being
reveals Itself in Its absolute reality and aseity.



If one can know the relative by putting oneself upon the
plane of relativity and upon that of simple interpretation,
then one also can know the Being by putting oneself upon the
plane of identity.  Western philosopy, in general, has not
solved the problem of the knowledge of Being, because it has
always put itself upon a dual plane, even when believing to
state the Oneness of reality.



Q.  Can being be expressed?



A.  Being can be experienced only upon a plane of identity.
Thus traditional or realizative Philosophy proposes the
knowledge of Being through the realization of Being.



Q.  So, Advaita has something in common with both the
Philosophy of Being and that of becoming?



A.  Yes, because it includes three levels or stages of
Reality (satya) in its vision:



paramarthika = pure or absolute reality vyavaharika =
empirical or phenomenal reality pratibhasika = illusory
existence

...



Asat, non-being in the strictest sense, is the non-existent,
the non-real, like the hare's horns....  But compared with
paramarthika Reality, one may say that even vyavaharika
truth, the empirical truth, is illusory because it is
non-permanent, non-constant.



Thus the ultimate conclusion of Advaita is that Being and
becoming are both dialectical 'moments' of the Absolute or
non-qualified supreme Reality (nirguna).


_____________________________________________________________________

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http://www.nonduality.com/context.htm

Petros quotes Nisargadatta:

"When I recognize that I am nothing, that is wisdom; when I recognize
that I am everything, that is love. Between these two points I live my
life."
________________________________________________________________________

Gloria:

Some people get lost without a map and compass. Some are homing pigeons
like Dan. Me, I've been known to drive right past the turn to my own
house because I am daydreaming.
________________________________________________________________________

Jerry:

I once had a girlfriend: everything about her was deep
mystery. When she poured cream in her coffee, it stayed
black.
________________________________________________________________________

lou Monte wrote:

dear
friends, i'm the lou that greg goode mentioned and i am hosting a
gathering at my home on long island on sunday, october 17 from 10am-4pm.
we do several of the douglas harding experiments which help in the
discovery of who we really are. it is informal,free and a nice lunch
will be provided. if you are in the area and would like to attend or
would like more information, please feel free to contact me at
loumonte@.... best wishes, lou
________________________________________________________________________

Rainbo and Dan:


Rainbo (quoting DL):
"It is in dependence upon sentient beings that one first generates this
altruistic aspiration to highest enlightenment,

Dan:
Highest enlightenment already is the case, and is independent of
anything - certainly of one's perceived dependence on sentient beings
or one's altruistic aspiration - - *nonetheless*,the aspiration and
the enlightenment are not separable from each other - - one's dependence
sentient beings and enlightenment are not separable...

Rainbo:
Highest enlightenment is already the case for whom?  Dalai Lama?

Dan:
Highest enlightenment is "light" itself - it is already the case -
it already "lights" itself - there is no one "for whom" it is the case -
it is always already the "only" case --  ask not for whom the light
lights - it lights for thee..

Rainbo:
Independence is a western myth really.  A really old and very
pervasive myth, but nonetheless a myth.

Dan:
That which has no other has no dependence - there is nothing outside
of it on which it could depend - the "myth" is when the "relative self"
or the "relative mind" tries to act as an independent agent.  This
myth seems to me to be part of the basis for the "aspiration" which
the DL discussed.  Feeling encumbered by dependencies and conditions,
the desire to be independent leads to awareness of confinement and an
aspiration to freedom - seeing that all already is free is the only
fullfillment of this aspiration - so aspiration is fulfilled in
non-aspiration.

Dalai Lama:
and it is in relation to
sentient beings that one practices the deeds of the path in order to
achieve  enlightenment.

Dan:
While being aware there is no path, nothing to achieve, and no sentient
beings that need rescuing - following simply "aspiration" as it becomes
"inspiration"

Rainbo:
There is no path?  There are a zillion paths.

Dan:
The pathless path is the only One which doesn't lead anywhere -
therefore the other paths are to be released --

Rainbow:
"nothing to achieve"  there is always more ... past the mystic
experience, past the visions, past the stillpoint, always more
evolution.

Dan:
All this endless "becoming something more" - always the hidden
comparison between "what was" "what is" and "what will be" only dropping
all this will bring "nothing to achieve" - peace - the moment that is
beginningless and endless - that contains all evolutions and devolutions
while itself not evolving or devolving

Rainbow:
To say "there is no suffering, I"ll have a glass of champagne" (you did
not say this) is, I cannot think of a nice to phrase it.  Let's see,
when sentient beings much more evolved than I hold a
dying child, they suffer.

Dan:
Famous saying of Herbie (a spokesperson for sentient beings
everywhere), "when drinking champagne - enjoy, when holding
a dying child - weep" (Herbie weeps, but he doesn't suffer :-)  ))

Rainbo:
To say there is no suffering is to say I have no emotions,

Dan:
Only if taken merely intellectually is what you say true.  If taken
"whole" then the reality of "no suffering" is the greatest hope for
"those who suffer" - and the "no suffering" reality, in my opinion,
naturally expresses as compassion, acceptance, hope, openness and
empathy when encountering "one who experiences suffering" - this is
the most helpful help - when there is "no one who is suffering" such
help doesn't have to get caught in anxiety, desires to "fix the other,"
"be the best helper," or "fix the world."

Rainbo:
Dalai Lama upon leaving Tibet collapsed from the visions of pain
he saw around him.  To my knowledge he is the most advanced soul alive
in the world today.  So, this list has people more advanced?

Dan:
I'm not claiming to be advanced, and I'm not claiming there's
anything wrong with emotions, or with someone collapsing from their
vision, or gastritis, or anything.  From my perspective, I don't see any
special value in making claims about who is the most advanced soul alive
(by the way, why do you rule out the Pope?  Indeed, why rule out anyone?
What criteria are you using?  How many have been surveyed?  Does your
survey include disincarnate beings?)  Further, and more seriously - what
separates the "soul" of the Dalai Lama from the "soul" of Rainbo, or
Dan, or anyone? Is "That Which Shines" divided into pieces, with one
piece "more advanced" than another piece of it??

Rainbo:
Do tell me about your ability to heal others, I am listening.

Dan:
There is One healer.  The same One who destroys.  And this is also
the One who is being healed and destroyed.  Therefore, creation,
destruction, healing, and decay are all transitory phenomenal
perceptions/descriptions.  The "deepest reality" of the situation of
birth/death, healing/decay is the Shining mentioned before - and this
Shining isn't born, created, destroyed, or healed.

Rainbow:
Dan, thank you for the counterpoint, but if you observe a quantum wave,
your observation upon it, will itself change the measurement of the
wave, whether it is at that moment a particle or a wave.  Therefore
"there are no objects of observation,"  makes no sense to me.

Dan:
What is, is.  Making sense of it is something the relative mind will
never do.  Quantum particles and waves are images we use to "make sense"
of It.  It in itself isn't contained by our images.  "No objects of
observation" is the observation when there is "Itself" alone.  This is
already always the case.  We don't need to make it happen, or make it
make sense.  It's when we don't feel a need to add any meaning to "what
is" that It appears to Itself through us, so to speak, as "all that is."

Rainbow:
I had enough kundalini fire yesterday to dispel any myths i held
about myself to be at peace and awake and enlightened.

Dan:
Glad to hear it - still smiling here. *M*M - Mercy M'lady and L*L*L*
to you too...

                   L*L*L
                   ~ Rainbo ~
________________________________________________________________________

Rainbo:
I grew up with a great-uncle who was the Devil's Advocate to several
Popes, so, I do not "rule out" the Pope, nor anyone.  A sweet story to
share:..  There was a girl in Germany who claimed to have "the stigmata"
(the wounds of Christ) my uncle, James, was sent, by the then current
Pople, to observe the veracity of this claim (the Devil's Advocate's
qualifications normally include humility (they are normally Franciscans
who have taken vows of poverty, over a dozen languages and multiple
Ph.D.'s).  He flew from Rome to Germany, took off his fancy Roman
vestments, put on an old monk's cowl, rubbed dirt in his face and hair
and went to beg bread from her.  She answered him at the gate to her
home and said, "go away old man, I am awaiting an important dignitary
from Rome."  (Which, was of course, was he.)

He flew back to Rome, and responded, "there is no saint living there."

I agree, there is nothing to separate the Souls of ourselves from
others, and it is this which is the unification of self with Mind, this
unification we make to Soul.
________________________________________________________________________

Judi posted a poem from Hafiz:

All day long
the earth shouts
"Gee, thanks."

Such an exuberant gee,
It starts throwing
Things

As if God were passing by in a parade encouraging
Rowdy behavior
By looking so beautiful -
That a whole avalanche of mania swoops in!

I like this idea of throwing things at God,
And especially - His making us rowdy!

Thus, as soon as Hafiz is out of bed
I start stuffing large sacks
With old shoes, cucumbers
And
Prayers

For the upcoming
Consecrated

Free-for-all -
And who knows
What else.

            ****** Hafiz
________________________________________________________________________

Jerry posts more from
The Pathway of Nonduality
by Raphael:

I'd like to include some entries from The Encylopedia of
Eastern Philosophy and Religion, that might be helpful,
before getting into the chapter.

Darsana: a name for the six doctrines that form the six
schools of orthdox Hindu philosophy.... All six doctrines
have the same goal: to liberate the soul from the round of
births and deaths and to bring about union with God or the
Absolute. They are all represented in the Bhagavad-Gita.

Gaudapada: a profound Advaitin. He became well known through
his commentary (karika) on the Mandukya Upanishad.

Samkhya: one of the six ... darsanas. Founded by Kapila, it
teaches that the universe arises through the union of
prakriti (nature) with purusha (consciousness). According to
Samkhya, there are as many souls and units of consciousness
(purushas) as there are living beings.


The Pathway of Nonduality

by Raphael

Chapter 3

Ajativada and Asparsavada


Q. In the Mandukyakarika of Gaudapada, Ajativada and
Asparsavada are spoken of. But what are Ajativada and
Asparsavada?

A. In order to understand this metaphysical vision it is
necessary first of all to comprehend the philosophical
attitude of the Vedanta in general.

In the Hindu tradition, connected to the Vedas, there are
six darsanas which, unlike the Western kind of philosophical
systems (being the result of mere individual speculations of
single philosphers using the manas-mind), represent 'points
of view', 'visions' or 'perspectives' regarding Vedic
teaching.

It must also be kept in mind that in the East, philosophy
and religion -- in the purest sense -- are united;
philosophy is a 'way of being', it is a consciential and not
a simple mental attitude. In other words, philosophy implies
realization: to know is to be. Therefore, when we speak of
philosophy and metaphysics we intend them in their purest
traditional sense.

We could also speak of realizative philosophy and
metaphysics; those of Pythagoras, Plato, Plotinus, for
example, are realizative philosophies because they involve
the very consciousness of the being, not merely its mind as
a simple discoursive factor.

To grasp the Real, the darsanas, being points of view, start
from certain perspectives that may be more or less complete,
inclusive and universal. Thus, for example, the
Samkhyadarsana (samkhya means 'numeration') starts from the
empirical outlook rather than from the metaphysical one; it
counts all the 'modifications' that substance undergoes from
the primordial matter (prakrti) -- under the impulse of
purusa -- to gross physical matter.

Without any doubt this is a valid point of view which
considers becoming rather than Being. But, we must point
out, it is not a materialistic darsana, because the aim of
the Samkhya is to free purusa from the modifications of
prakrti. Purusa and prakrti correspond in an approximate
manner to essence and substance, or to spirit and matter, in
the Western sense.

We may say, however, that it is a dualistic point of view in
that it presents the two poles, purusa and prakrti, as
co-eternal. This does not mean that it opposes monism; only
that Kapila, codifier of the Samkhya, begins his treatise on
the One when it is already differentiated or polarized. For
example, we can study dense physical matter from the
molecular, atomic or sub-atomic point of view. It is obvious
that, according to the branch of studies, the point of view
changes, although there is no contradiction between one
field and the others.

If, therefore, we grasp the fact that the darsanas are
'points of view', we realize that the various authors,
codifiers of the darsanas, 'saw' Reality from different
consciential viewpoints which are the states of
consciousness reached by them, the positions realized by
them. Gaudapada -- to use the analogy mentioned before --
goes beyond the substantial texture, beyond the molecular
condition, beyond the atomic state, to touch the state of
elementary essence, beyond all manifested factors.

It is obvious, therefore, that Gaudapada (codifier of
Ajativada) and Kapila (codifier of the Samkhyavada),
starting from different standpoints, arrive at different
conclusions which are not opposed or excluding each other.
We should underline, however, that the molecular point of
view, compared with the elementary one, is characterized by
its relativity and non-absoluteness. The molecules are born,
they develop and disappear, while the elementary state
subsists. And indeed, the molecules dissolve into the
elementary state because they are non-absolute,
non-constant. The mass (body-compound) dissolves into
energy. In this perspective, and transposing the whole on to
a metaphysical level, Ajativada presents the characteristic
of absoluteness and universality as compered with
Samkhyavada which, however, valid, nonetheless reductive.

Q. Did Gaudapada 'see' Reality in its ultimate
non-determination?

A. Yes. Gaudapada, by adopting the perspective of the
Absolute as such, or of the pure Being (Advaita) was able to
say, rightly, that in It there is no birth or generation or
modification. Pure Being was never born, therefore it cannot
die or cease to be. And if it was not born there can be no
real manifestation. If the Absolute Being cannot transform
Itself or become multiple then, Gaudapada asks, what is it
that we see? This is the admirable metaphysical or Advaita
perspective of Gaudpada's Ajativada.

The atom on the gross-physical level is the first
determination from which the various physical compounds
arise, but beyond the atom there is no body-form, there is
only 'formless' energy; in other words, there is no
manifestation as we know it. Gaudapada, by going on to the
metaphysical level, went beyond the first
Determination-Being from which the formal universes arise,
but beyond the first Determination there is no universe, no
form, no compound, either atomic or molecular. We can say
that beyond the first Determination there is the
non-qualified (nirguna), non-caused state.

The Ajativada, seen within the perspective of the manifest
-- and the manifest includes the gross-physical, the subtle
and the causal-germinal states -- might seem a logical
absurdity and a pragmatic impossibility, but this is
understandable. The identification and assimilation with one
consciential state excludes the comprehension of another
state. If the individual, for example, identifies with the
formal becoming (dualism in general), he will never be able
to understand a point of view that goes beyond duality. If
the individual identifies with his physical body
(substance), he will never be able to understand himself in
terms of pure Being that is never born, never grows and is
never caused.

A metaphysical 'Vision' implies going beyond the
space-time-cause perspective; space, time and cause are
determinations inherent in form, in compounds, in phenomena.
The more the consciousness identifies with the formal
aspect, the greater will be the difficulty of going beyond
this perspective.

Q. Gaudapada also spoke of Asparsavada. What is this?

A. All told, Ajativada and Asparsavada are one and the same
thing. A-jati means non-generation or non-birth and jati
means birth, generation -- taken to mean the passage from
Non-being to Being. Asparsa is the yoga or the path that
leads to the non-generated state of pure Being. Besides,
sparsa means contact, relation, and a-sparsa means
non-contact, non-relation. Now the Absolute Being is often
considered as without relation, without contact with
anything because, being one without a second (Advaita), It
could establish a relation or have a contact with nothing.

Q. Asparsavada is also called the path without supports.
Why?

A. The support of the 'ego', which is relativity, is based
on the form-manifestation aspect and on the qualities
(gunas) which the substance expresses. Asparsa, being a vada
of a metaphysical nature, tends to remove all supports
inherent in being. By eliminating all formal supports the
'reflection or ray of consciousness' falls into That which
is pure Being without supports, without relations or
duality. From a philosophical point of view we could say
that Asparsavada tends to eliminate the time-space-cause
support which is the qualification of the phenomenon but not
of the noumenon.

Q. Is that why the path appears difficult?

A. Yes, because it is a realizative metaphysics that tends
to solve all the determinations of Being. The 'ego', in that
it is a manifested object, fears its annihilation because it
cannot imagine itself without form, without time or
determination. On the other hand this is right: the
molecular 'ego' could never conceive itself as an atomic
self because this belongs to another dimension.

Gaudapada in chapter III, karika 39, says:

"This yoga called asparsa is very difficult for many yogins
to understand because they, feeling fear where there is
none, are afraid of it."

And Samkara explaining this karika declares that this
metaphysical yoga is hard to be attained by yogins lacking
in true knowledge. "The yogins," say Samkara, "are afraid
(of this yoga) while they should not be. The
non-discriminating fear, while practicing this yoga, arises
out of the extinction of their individuality, although
(asparsa) is beyond all fear.

And again, in karika 2, chapter IV, it is stated:

"I bow to this yoga -- taught by the Scriptures -- well
known as asparsa, free from relations, beneficial, generator
of beatitude for all beings and free from oppositions and
contradictions..."

Why free from contradictions? Because a contradiction or an
opposition can be had only on the plane of duality. An
empirical experience can be contradicted by another
empirical experience. For example, the experience of waking
by dreaming, that of dreaming by waking, and both are
contradicted by deep dreamless sleep. But in Turiya (the
metaphysical state of pure Being) there can be no
contradiction, because in it the experiencer and the
experienced, or subject and object, do not exist.
________________________________________________________________________

SELF REALISATION By Sri Ramana Maharshi

In the following extract from Gems from Bhagavan, we are
reminded of the truth and inspired to realise the True Self.

THE STATE WE CALL realisation is simply being oneself, not
knowing anything or becoming anything.  If one has realised,
he is that which alone is, and which alone has always been.
He cannot describe that state.  He can only be That.  Of
course we loosely talk of Self-Realisation for want of a
better term.

Effortless and choiceless awareness is our real state.  If
we can attain it or be in it, it is all right.  But one
cannot reach it without effort, the effort of deliberate
meditation. All the age long vasanas (impressions) carry the
mind outwards and turn it to external objects.  All such
thoughts have to be given up and the mind turned inward.
For that, effort is necessary, for most people.  Of course
everybody, every book says 'Be quiet or still'.  But it is
not easy.  That is why all this effort is necessary.

There is a state beyond our efforts or effortlessness.
Until that is realised effort is necessary.  After tasting
such bliss even once, one will repeatedly try to regain it.
Having once experienced the bliss of peace, no one would
like to be out of it or engage himself otherwise.

You may go on reading any number of books on Vedanta.  They
can only tell you 'Realise the Self'. The Self cannot be
found in books.  You have to find it for yourself in
yourself.

--contributed by Harsha

_____________________________________________________________________

I went to hear Francis Lucilled speak here in NYC last
weekend.  I asked him during his talk about my experience of
understanding and awareness and then the subsquent "losing
of it".  He told me that I had become attached to a state
(of being: happiness/compassion/love) and that I turned that
into an object, hence the thought "I've lost it".  He said
that I could never lose it, awareness has never been gone,
which others have told me also.  He said that I had fallen
in love with the shadow of my lover, but not my true love.
And that if it was my true love, "he" would never have left
me because when someone truly loves you, they will never
leave.

This prompted further investigation for me.  I felt I had to
look deeper into the "why" of having returned to separation
and the consequent suffering.  I am discovering that I
believe I chose to turn away from the truth of being because
there were further lessons I needed to learn. And those
lessons have to do with attachment.  Because I clung to the
state of happiness, I became very worried and fearful when I
noticed that I had become attached to my boyfriend (now
husband).  I incorrectly thought I had to "get rid" of the
attachment.  That's really when I started to think that I
was "losing it"!  I thought that I shouldn't be attached.
Can you believe it?  It's almost funny now.  But I do feel
compassion for myself for having been so deluded.  I feel I
have had to learn a very hard lesson.

So, now I have seen that attachment is another process of
thinking, not meant to be smothered out of one's mind or
else...!!  I truly loved being happy and certainly did not
want that happiness to leave.  Can you blame a person for
that??  : )

I haven't "walked over the edge" into 'no separation' yet.
(I hesitate to say "yet" implying time and some future event
that I await).  Who knows what will happen in my life?  I
could be hit by bus tomorrow...or even today.  And as Gene
so beautifully said during a recent chat, "There's no need
to rush.  We have all the time in the world".

I guess I feel a huge resolution to those questions that
have haunted me and now I find it much easier to just relax
and be where I am.  Whatever "happens" in the future is not
really up to me.  That's another big lesson here.  I have to
give up everything to God.  People use the word surrender.
That one has been really tough for me....Judi, thank you for
constantly saying it over and over.

So the observation and listening continues.  As pointed out,
that is really all there is to do anyhow.  How foolish of me
to think otherwise.

--Becky

____________________________________________________________________

I was just listening to an audio on Isaac Shapiro's website
in which he points one toward the state of deep sleep and
says there is no attention there.  Then as one awakes, there
is attention.  And in that way the whole world comes into
being.  Being very still can bring one to the moment before
thought or attention.  Those are Isaac's words and who am I
to argue?  By the way, he's a great speaker.  Much is said
in his silence.  He teaches by silence, that is very clear,
ironically, even in his audios:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/2689/home.html

--Jerry

____________________________________________________________________

What is an "external object" if the Truth has no outside or
inside?
An "external object" can only be a way of defining,
labelling, understanding the "One True Thing" in a dualistic
way.  What then would "turning inward" be?  It could only be
seeing through one's own labelling, defining, and
(mis)understanding process.  The "One True Thing" has no
inside or outside.  The "effort" to turn "inside" is itself
a labelling, defining, and understanding of "One True
Thing."  Therefore, inevitably, the "effort" needs to be
surrendered in exactly the same way that One surrendered the
definition of "external objects" as existing separately
(from Oneself). Finally, the labelling of "One" or "Self"
needs to be surrendered as well.

--Dan

___________________________________________________________________


It is obvious that a simple teaching like nondualism does
have a disadvantage; it is fairly easy to grasp and at the
first glimpse of recognizing one's real nature, the
proclamation of another EO follows.  It is entirely
forgotten that a rather gifted one like Ramana was plunged
into incessant self-absorption for years, hiding from the
crowd when possible and finally gave in to accept the role
of a teacher.  The seemingly complicated path of Mahayana
Buddhism is an effective guard against "instant guruism" as
displayed in the West and the vows are a safeguard against
amassing personal wealth. Although Sufism and Rosicrucianism
don't implicitly mention nonduality, "one will get there",
without the possibility of "instant guruism" at the first
glimpse.  Alas, the genie is out of the enlightened bottle
and can't be pushed back.  As science provided for the
encephalogram and cardiogram, time to devise a machine the
make a gurugram :)

--Jan


Many of the conventional paths have built-in safeguards
against this fast-food EO proclamation.  In the AMORC
(commercialized) Rosicrucian teachings, the path is 32 years
of dues-paying membership.  Advaita Vedanta has a 15 year
path once the student begins the Vedanta - and this is after
the regular "karmakanda" portion of practice.  In Kabbala it
is said that one must be married, 40 yrs old and have
"swallowed the Torah." The Mahayana 10 stages of a
Boddhisattva are downright mythological, and in conventional
understanding, they are preliminaries to being a Buddha.
Not only do these paths guard against personal wealth, but
also personal aggrandizement of all kinds. Yes, we can't
push the toothpaste back into the tube.  One teacher,
Ramesh, takes it as a sign of non-enlightenment the
proclamation of enlightenment.  But he also regards it as a
sign of enlightenment if HE proclaims you to "have the final
understanding..."  This stuff gets completely wacky.

--Greg

___________________________________________________________________


My impression is that the mystics speak of oneness or unity
more than nonduality.  They're very big on Oneness, but it
would be nice to find the ones that went beyond.

--Jerry

Mystics like St.  John of the Cross and gnostics like Hermes
Trismegistus certainly went beyond but never expressed it in
writing; the "mystical union" of Christian mystics, the
"alchemical wedding" of Valentin Andraede, the union of
Shiva And Shakti, nirvana, moksha, all different words for
the very same psychophysical event.

--Jan

Okay, from experience, the mystic experience happens at
heart chakra on the way up, when all chakras above are open,
meaning throat, crown, etc., then beyond that, the
unification with Soul happens over a period of time, until
the Crown completely fires nonstop for awhile and the energy
is brought back down into heart where it blooms outwards,
feels like about three feet.  From here one is in "mind" or
"soul" unifica- tion.  One is not a saint and human, that is
why i say there is always more ...  you understand ...  and
i'm sure there is more beyond this but i do not speak to
what i do not know.

--~ Rainbo ~
___________________________________________________
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http://www.nonduality.com/context.htm

The Nonduality Salon was very busy Thursday, which means
many posts as 'good' as the ones here were left out.

______________________________________________________________________

As for vows of poverty and chastity - these days, the people
I know following spiritual paths are uninterested in any
kind of vows at all.  Do you know anyone taking vows?  The
satsang teachers sometimes take on celibacy, but it's not as
deep as it's claimed to be - it's very emotionally reactive,
either to avoid their partner or because their partner has
been cheating.

Come to think of it, I have heard a few of the devotees
going celibate simply because their teacher did.

Poverty/prosperity - I know people who are uncomfortable
with the issue of money, think it's un-spiritual.  To get
more money, one of my friends is practicing Chinese
energetics for the mind so that she'll be able to attract
prosperity.

--Greg
__________________________________________________________________

We can bemoan the (post)modern trend to instant
enlightenment but there's little to do about it, as this is
our nature, at least so we are told.  More and more will be
awakening to their true nature (and it can only happen
instantly, even if after years of sadhana) and
simultaneously more and more will be getting distracted by
the attractions of premature enlightenment syndrome.  Maybe
we need a government board to certify these guys.

--Sarlo
______________________________________________________________________

Dear Members, I would like to explain how I came to develop
an interest in Non-Duality.I was attending a Gnostic
organization for three years,and was told that there was an
ongoing war between the White Lodge and the Black Lodge.We
were encouraged to defend ourselves against the Black
Lodge,who actually comprised the vast majority of the human
race.I found myself getting more and more alienated from my
fellow beings,and I left the organization three months ago.
I feel that the way forward lies in the ideas of Non-Duality
and Alchemy.

````````````````````````````````````
Nonduality is the end result or the Ultimate Reality,whereas
Alchemy is a symbolic representation of the means to that
end.Alchemy should not be understood as prescribing specific
practices,but rather that it gives insights into the nature
of Consciousness which could have an influence on how one
leads one's life.

It is hard to see Nonduality in the maelstrom of daily
life,whereas Alchemy recognizes the opposites
(e.g.intellect/feeling,my point of view/your point of
view,asceticism/indulgence ,light/darkness,love/hate),and
points towards their reconciliation.

--Sena
````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````Welcome
Sena,

This is the link to your site:

http://members.tripod.co.uk/Sena_Fernando/index.html

It makes me think of some of Lobster's work on alchemy,
which is found at:

http://members.tripod.com/~chippit/evolve.html
http://members.tripod.com/~chippit/solution.html

In fact, I have just ordered Lobster's book, Alchemical
Solution, by A.  A.  Aziz, from a distributor in England.

Correct me if I'm wrong.  The nondual expression of your
writings rests in statements such as:

"The task of alchemy is to unite physical reality with the
spiritual world,and Consciousness is the bridge between
these two realms."

As well, there are other statements speaking of the
reconciling of opposites.  This all bears on nonduality,
although the nondual, most radically, is something about the
atmosphere in which all this uniting and reconciling occurs.
It's kind of a 'source' of it all, a 'nothingness'.

--Jerry
___________________________________________________________________

Who is enlightened?  Who wants to know?

--Phil

Enlightenment is "default" so that's not the issue.  A piece
of rock is enlightened just as well; the rock is failing the
apparatus to recognize that.  At the same time, the rock is
failing the apparatus to care about that either.  So
obviously, the act of recognizing requires sentience -
available at least to mammals.  Even a cat or a dog can
recognize the real nature; it doesn't require thinking or
verbalizing.  But only humanoids can realize that their real
nature can include the mind-body in a literal sense; this
realization can be described as a series of transformations,
requiring intelligent cooperation and it has been, still is,
the concern of conventional paths.

--Jan
____________________________________________________________________

For me, it seems that no matter how much intellectual
knowledge I may have about the Qabalah, it matters not one
whit, if I cannot touch the energies of the Sacred Tree.

--Rainbo
___________________________________________________________________
Nora:
BTW, Ken Wilber says his Witness is present, even in
dreamless sleep(it was the last stage for him)except when
he's been drinking wine the evening before

Mira:
Makes one wonder where this Witness goes then, doesn't it?
:-)

Jan:
That could be called alcoholic regression :) A "normal"
development would be for "Ken Wilber" to go, ending the
duality of "the Witness and me".

____________________________________________________________________
Perhaps in this day and age we are in a transition stage
from what used to be sacred property of certain long
established teacher/student-traditions and its 'aftercare',
into non-teacher enlightenment.  In an age where the
mind/body functioning has evolved to a point where it no
longer requires this kind of protective environment.
I think in many cases the mind/body functioning in western
society has gained such stability (eg.  no worries about
survival), that it is indeed able to look after this
(supposed) path 'toward' and 'aftercare support' all by
itself, without the aid of a teacher.

This 'aftercare support' may take many forms (NDS list?). By
the way, I don't think a teacher is someone who proclaims
him/herself to be a teacher. I think it is The Student who
establishes and recognizes someone to be a teacher.  Not the
other way around.  People may consider you to be a teacher,
and you may not even be aware of it (you may not even like
it).  Still, one has always great freedom to accept this
role or not, and to do so, will always be accompanied by a
lot of criticism.
My favorite quote on this matter:

"When you do something right, there will always be those who
criticize you; when you do something wrong, there will be no
one around to stop you."

Mira
____________________________________________________________________
Jan:  It is obvious that a simple teaching like nondualism
does have a disadvantage; it is fairly easy to grasp and at
the first glimpse of recognizing one's real nature, the
proclamation of another EO follows.


Dan:  IT has another disadvantage:  IT has nothing to do
with "grasping a teaching."  Those who think they have
grasped IT, haven't, and those that identify it with a
teaching are mistaken.  Those who make claims are doing just
that, "making claims."  The only thing that matters here is
"awareness".
______________________________________________________________________

I don't find it reassuring that there are spiritual
authorities defining how many years or lifetimes are needed
for awareness.  I also am not reassured that authorities
have constructed paths that are supposed to guard against
human inclinations,as these authorities turn out to have
human inclinations of their own.  In fact, when they pretend
that they don't comes across to me as somewhat deceptive,
and possibly self-deceptive.  Their guards against personal
aggrandizement don't seem to prevent aggrandizement of their
doctrines, teachers, and structured version of reality.  On
the other hand, I hear the constructive side of what you're
saying - it's like the idea of checks and balances in
democracy.  Still, the individuals who have really "shaken
things up" and strongly affected spiritual vision turn out
to be individuals *not* involved in the organizational
structures of their time.
Many are *rebels* in one way or another.  This is not
coincidence - far from it!

--Dan
____________________________________________________________________
Dan:  Enjoying the discussion about rocks, animals and
enlightenment.
How can an object be "out" of its true nature when it is
"our" perception that gives it its nature?  If there is any
doubt about the ability of a rock or antelope to be
enlightened, this doubt can best be applied to awareness of
our perception (of the "rock" and "antelope").  Peace all...


Mira:
You're right again, as usual.Nothing has any intrinsic
meaning, it is only perception which makes it appear that
way. Rock is emptiness.  It becomes a rock when perception
makes it appear so.  It becomes an enlightened rock when my
imagination makes it appear so.  The rock could care less,
and is still empty. As is my perception by the way.
Fantasy just loves playing the game of unenlightenment, in
order to achieve enlightenment. Isn't that a wonderful
game?  It is a very user friendly game; for it is a game
that no one can loose. I love playing with rocks, with
animals, with words, with you. I enjoy playing "I send
message-You answer".  There is only I. But it is so much fun
with "me" and "you" around to talk about that, and play the
game....
____________________________________________________________________
Sitting with Francis Lucille in silence was the first time I
had experienced this type of 'teaching', although there was
talking that followed.  I imagine that the silent approach
is powerful and probably even more so if the group is very
small, or even only two sitting together.

...  just keep observing and the discoveries will come, you
don't have to force them or even look for them -- they are
reavealed-- and yes, mostly in very ordinary moments.

I found this today from a Satsang w/ Vartman:

"...the deepest recognition is that no thought is worthy of
your attention.  Your attention is gold.  Your attention is
the diamond.  Wherever you put it, that's your reality.  If
you put it on the emotions, the story that's arising in the
illusion of my life.  That's your reality.

You let it rest in where it's coming from .  This is "sat
chit ananda", awareness being aware of itself.

And there's a subtle trap in this.  Because your attention
is so powerful that whatever you focus on can be produced,
can be manifested. ANd at the deepest level if you are
looking for bliss, as some confirmation that you're resting,
then it's a very easy place to get trapped.

"Cause the mind goes "Ah, ha.  THere's bliss there.  I'm
resting properly now".  "Oh, bliss has gone.  I've gotta
start resting more." "Oh, theres the experience of love here
I must be doing this right.""Oh, I'm not feeling love.  I've
gotta rest more."

This layer of bliss, of love, of extraordinary peace,
happiness.  That's the final veil.  It's the most subtle
state of mind.  In sanskrit they even have a word for this
it's called "ananda marga something or other."

Who you are needs no confirmation of any state of bliss, of
love, of peace, of anything.
You are already what you are looking for.  Regardless of the
play of I've lost it.

You don't need anything to validate who you are.  This that
you are has always been enlightenment.

So now the mind has nowhere to go.  THe mind is not the
referee any more.  The minds not saying "Yes.  Good.  You
are getting it." It's like too lazy to even believe the
conclusions of mind, of states, of feelings, of emotions.

Only then.  Really, only then, does this deepening appear,
because until then you are still clinging to validation by
mind.  When it's like "No. Mind will never, ever get this."
Then who cares what mind is thinking.  Papaji used to say
"Don't get involved with thinking.  Don't get involved with
thoughts, even if thinking is happening."

--Becky
______________________________________________________________________


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http://www.nonduality.com/context.htm

Hello. This collection opens and closes with some reminders
by Harsha. Between those funky bookends stand some of the
day's flashes of insight.
___________________________________________________________________


Harsha:

You are the traveler, path, and the goal.  We provide the
entertainment.
__________________________________________________________________

Jan:

The 9-25 issue of New Scientist contains two articles about
memory; both are related to meditation. The first article
"Never forget / old brains can be helped to form new
memories" is about the discovery that memory deterioration
during aging is caused by stress hormones (corticosteroids);
they are blocking the growing of new neurons, needed to form
memories about recent events.  In elderly people, the level
of these stress hormones can be the threefold of the level
in young adults.


So the forming of new neurons by K.  awakening can have the
same reason; bliss and stress don't mix.  It shows that
meditation, yoga, nonduality should have an important role
in society as a natural stress inhibitor. How medical
science will react is predictable: "medicines" to block the
effects from stress hormones.  With the predictable outcome
of more stress, thanks to the better memory; isn't medical
science great :)

The second (small) article starts with the description of a
simple experiment: you are told, it will be unpleasant.  You
are asked to plunge your hand in a tub of cold water (not
knowing it is 14 C), only to remove it when told to do so;
this happens after a minute.  Seven minutes later, a similar
experiment: this time, the first experiment is repeated but
when the minute is over, the water is warmed 1 degree (C)
during 30 seconds.  Which of the experiences do you want to
repeat?  Most people choose the longer trial.  The theory is
that the duration of an experience is neglected by memory;
there is undue influence by the most intense moments and by
the endings.  So 90 seconds of pain (both 14 and 15 C is
rather cold), ending less severe is recollected as better
than suffering 60 seconds.  This suggests inbuilt biases
like compressing time, giving undue weight to peak moments
and the way an experience ends.

It explains why a few peak experiences outweigh the boredom
of many holidays offered by mass-tourism and why for
mountaineers the few moments "on top" outweigh the many
hours of hardships. It also explains, why
"flash-enlightenment" reduces the "before" to something
insignificant and explains why "after"some have no problem
to live of life that could be called ascetic.

____________________________________________________________________

Mira:

It is not only 'hard' to see Nonduality, it is simply
impossible to see Nonduality in daily life, for Nonduality
IS daily life.As long as an individual aspect of daily life,
like a person, is trying to 'spot' Nonduality somewhere
between all those daily activities, it is overlooking the
fact that this person is also a daily activity.  Nonduality
is not a process, or a means to an end.  It is the only
thing that is not in process, upon which all processes rest.

Alchemy sounds like a process though, for I understand from
you post that it addresses things as leading one's life and
insights into the nature of consciousness.  I would really
appreciate it if you could expound some of the basics of
Alchemy.
_____________________________________________________________________

Colette:

My cat is definitely linked teleplathically with me.  He
makes soul eye contact better than most men.

His awareness expands and is effected by mine.  After I
received Darshan from Ammachi both my cats felt me through
the door waiting hungrily to get closer to Her I was carying
in my aura ~

So it seems to me cats can evolve deeper higher awareness
through absorbing energies of their owners.

````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Rather, the other way around, Colette--the cat was
recognizing your "higher"state--Cats are born enlightened!

love, nora

______________________________________________________________________

"it's not what you say but how you say it"  and yes,
bypassing verbal modes is a lesson i learned from my father
...  flashing dimples into deep pools of silence

*g*  ~  Lilies floating on calm waters ~

----Rainbo

The mystery of music....
vibration and sound waves...
Yes, the beauty of no language, or a transformed unknown,
mysterious language.

Music is not necessarily based on harmony.  Perhaps 100
years ago, yes (western music that is).

Sound and silence...

Is there silence if there is no sound?
Is there stillness if there is no movement?

Where does sound stop and music begin?

--Becky

______________________________________________________________________

There are some interesting theories being worked out in
music ...  but for me it is one of the greatest gifts ...
Music is like God's waterfall of beauty to the world...  :-)

A friend is an opera singer, her voice is clear like Light
...  and when she calls it's like Heaven visiting as she
sings on the phone *g*

we did a concert last summer together, dedicated to peace,
just for fun, to play and send waves of love and light and
peace to the pentagon *g*
in wash dc next to the monument :-)

Thank you for the musical harmonious thoughts ~

~ * ~  RainboRebellina ~ * ~
______________________________________________________________________

Rainbow:

in the meantime, *g* if i do not understand an event or
something beyond my ken, i will loudly exclaim that it
doesn't exist, such as "the world is round" "E=mc2"  or any
other sort of phenomenon beyond my wee comprehension.

~~~ dancing in love with light ~~~
L*L*L

Dan:

Sounds like a plan.  Now, if the world is flat, and "I"
don't exist...  then I won't have to worry whether E=mc2 or
3.
Hey, this really works...  -- lightly loving dancing

Rainbow:

Does music begin where sound is stopped?  Hopefully the
musical harmony will continue on, my first love ...

Dan:

The sound of the bell...  do you hear it?
It started long ago ...  it started now

The ripples of its sound expanding from now into this

The space doesn't carry the sound to me, That is why I hear
it...


_____________________________________________________________________

aleks:

hi everyone!

i was able to attend satsang last night with gangaji.  quite
an evening!
satsang began at 6:30, but folks were already there and
starting to line up by 5.  there were about 300 persons in
all--600 shoes tucked in cubicles outside--looked like about
20 folks were part of her "foundation."

was fortunate to bypass the line--(if you don't like crowds,
get connections!) and the evening began with 15 minutes of
silence before gangaji arrived.  i had brought with me the
silence of a pre-satsang hike up the mountain, and the
heightening stillness of the crowd was quite noticeable.

the posturing and posing of the ultra spiritual of my
community melts away, along with the worries of the day --
"the dog!  the kids!  the doorbell!  "
self!  take me away:)

let me set the scene-- this is being filmed, so there is a
camera and crew. comfy chairs for the "set", nice blue
backdrop and flowers, lit candles, and nice carpet and
poster sized photos of ramana and papaji.  ..

it is all incredibly slick, but gangaji's message of not
being a guru, but that "i am your own true self" amazingly
does not get lost in all of this ambiance.  ( i must admit,
that she totally "floats" into the room dressed in all
white-- holy ghost like and beautiful.  )  her message is
direct and firm.  always directing the questioners back to
the self.  her silences are loud.

having viewed many of her videos, it seems that folks always
ask the same questions.

the first guy said he was happy.  she just looks at him.  he
admits that "there is a sadness there."  she tells him to
put aside all the stories about sadness and really be with
the sadness.  and he does have one of *those* moments-- he
says "it's longing."  more silence.  she explains the shift
in the guy's perception that has just occured.  and no, i
don't think longing was the word.  in fact i don't think
there is a word for what he perceived in that moment.  :)

then there is the inevitable question about service, after
which gangaji explains that she was an activist, and learned
that her motivations were "all about me."  the questioner
then asks her why she's doing what she's doing. she explains
that it's her trip- she does what she does.
she's not a missionary.  she's just expressing the truth of
who she is. the message is that what you want to fix about
the world is really about yourself.  bearing this in mind,
service is offered with that mindset.

finally the precarious person-- who feels psychically
split.  pieces of her soul are flying all over the cosmos.
gangaji does not take this lightly (thankfully) and has the
woman, "name the pieces" (in gentle humour)  and then
together they locate the piece that always was, doesn't
change, and cannot split.  the woman is truly astonished.
"it cannot be that simple."  she says.

perhaps it is and it isn't.  .  .  that simple.  (here's
where the olympic hurling team satsang comes in!)

i don't attend many of these events, but i am always so
pleased to be in the midst of others who are living and
breathing in this truth--and others who are drawn to that.
gangaji has such a great sense of humour. she is all of you
here on this list, in truth, with more props, a staff and a
great publicist!

much fun was had by one

love and blessings, aleks
_____________________________________________________________________

aleks--thanks for sharing--i really like these satsang
posts, tho i notice neither greg, becky nor i gave a full
report of last Friday nite with Francis Lucille(tho Becky
reported on a part that affected her)-Greg, you went to the
whole weekend didn't you??  maybe you could say something
about it...
Francis seemed quite different from Gangaji(as i've
experienced her on videos and cassettes) very quiet..
his main message seemed to be "know that you are not
separate"
and "celebrate life!" Every teacher has a slightly different
spin, tho they are all saying the SAME thing, which we also
get every day here at the good ol' Nonduality Saloon!
a round of drinks for all!
love, nora
______________________________________________________________________

The Pathway of Nonduality

by Raphael

Chapter 3 (concluded)


Ajativada and Asparsavada

Q.  Thus from the point of view of the Absolute nothing is
born?


A.  From the point of view of the Absolute there can be no
birth or death, transformation or modification.  From the
point of view of the sun the earthly dawn and sunset are not
absolute realities, and indeed they do not exist at all.
There is no movement in the sun that can cause dawn and
sunset (duality).  There is no movement in pure Being that
can cause birth and death.


Q.  By what means did Gaudapada arrive at this truth?


A.  By means of Knowledge, intuitive discernment and
naturally by relying upon the authority of the Sruti.


Q.  But what kind of Knowledge?


A.  The Vedanta, and therefore Gaudapada, proposes various
kinds of Knowledge: a strictly illusory one, an empirical
mediated one given by the manas (projective mind) which
knows only the object-form, and the immediate kind or
'Knowledge of identity'.  In other words, one must
distinguish between what is simple sensorial opinion and
what is true and authentic Knowledge-Science which reveal
Reality, Truth as it is.


Q.  In synthesis, therefore, what are the postulates upoon
which the Vision of the Ajativada rests?


A.  There is an unchanging, eternal, ever-present and actual
Reality without generation and extinction, devoid of
cause-effect and of spece-time, having no contradiction, One
without a second.  As Reality is constant and perfect unity,
all that is differentiation, multiplicity, fleetingness and
change cannot be Ultimate and Supreme Reality but only
appearance, representation which may seem to be real if
observed from the point of view of opinion.  The snake we
see in place of the rope may be real as long as we believe
it to be so, but at the touchof Superior Knowledge the snake
proves to be a simple super-imposition veiling the true
identity of the rope.


The world of names and forms is nothing but mere appearance,
phenomenon which appears and disappears; it is a
continuum-discontinuum which may be interrupted at any given
moment when, that is, the Supreme Knowledge of Identity
(Para Vidya) becomes evident within ouselves.  On the other
hand, becoming offers a knowledge which 'is not', an
unstable, uncertain knowledge, in other words, a
non-knowledge.  According to Gaudapada all pairs of
opposites, no being Absolute, dissolve into the
One-without-a-Second.
______________________________________________________________________

Dan:


The attempt to "see" nonduality is the impossible dream.  To
see the impossibility of seeing nonduality is, at best,
highly unlikely.  If one could see how impossible this
seeing is, one would then be seeing it...
____________________________________________________________________

Jerry:

The type of energy between Sarlo and Petros bring to mind
the next vision.  A television show.  The Siskel and Ebert
of nonduality.  Reviews of books, satsangs, websites.
Interviews with leaders and attendees.  A fast paced show
that's fun, reverent, irreverent, serious, highly
entertaining, a mish mash of everything.

Greg:

We've already joked around about this in NYC.  In fact, it's
the same 7 or 8 people in NY who bring all the teachers in
and organize all the events; like a Satsang mafia (I'm
trying to get two of these guys to get on the Satsang trail
and teach, but they're still fighting ego issues and don't
feel ready.  I tell them that it hasn't stopped lots of
others...).

But I must say, this kind of TV might be too soon for some.
There are some folks out there who take this stuff deadly
seriously.  The light-hearted irreverent approach we
envision will actually alienate some of the seekers/teachers
who would actually provide the best entertainment.

Case in point.  Several weeks at our Tuesday evening Satsang
we had a hilarious game that alienated a satsang teacher who
happened to attend that night.  Called the "Revolving Q&A
Satsang Game," it went like this.  Going through our
memoriies of satsangs, and some books, we came up with some
very entertaining questions actually asked by seekers.
Wrote the questions on 5x8.5" pieces of paper with room for
answers.  Then we passed them around the circle of people,
each getting a different question.  Each person had to write
up to 5 words of an answer, then pass the sheet to the next
person, till the answer had (i) at least 10 words and (ii)
was finished off by one of the writers.  Then we read the
answers out loud.  It was hilarious to everyone but the
satsang teacher. He didn't find any of it funny, and thought
the rules of the game were curtailing our freedom and
sponaneity.
______________________________________________________________________

Mira:

Does recognition of Self, affect its appetite?  It doesnt
affect mine...

Jan:

30 years ago it certainly affected my appetite; it became
almost non-existing as the stormy K.  rising brought more
bliss then anything I had ever known.  So the body became
like skin over bones and sitting on hard chairs sometimes
felt painful but any feeling would almost immediately be
swamped by this ineffable bliss.  Motherly feelings were
aroused in many women because of the "small face, big dark
eyes" look and they would offer a meal, insisting me to eat
something.  In order to please them, some was eaten but soon
I would forget to be eating at all as the "pull of Self" was
so strong that everything faded away and attention couldn't
be kept on any worldly activity for about 8 months;

______________________________________________________________________

Bring in the clowns!  Call in the clowns!  Don't bother,
they are here.  :-)

--Harsha
_____________________________________________________________________


Nonduality Salon Website
http://www.nonduality.com
Nonduality Salon Email Forum
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/nondualitysalon
Nonduality Salon Chat
http://www.eScribe.com/religion/nondualitysalon/chat
Nonduality Salon List of Nondual People
http://www.nonduality.com/morea.htm
Encyclopedia of Nonduality
http://www.nonduality.com/context.htm

Jan headlines in this edition. You'll even find a link to
his little known home page. Not included are Petros' reports
on Satsang with Byron Katie. So far they include several
letters with more coming. I'd like to present them in a
special supplemental posting, probably tomorrow.

Very soon you'll be seeing more editors, as we are finding
replacements for Bruce and Melody who are on well-deserved
sabbaticals. If anyone else wants to volunteer one day a
week, write me.

Love,
Jerry
_____________________________________________________________________

JAN AND MIRA: EXPOSING CONCEPTS

Jan:
It wasn't meant to hurt or offend; it is difficult to see
there exists nothing "outside" enlightenment; this is the
nondual sound so at the NDS I used the extremes.  But for
practical reasons, from the perspective of multiplicity of
individual bodies, there is "this body" and "other ones"; it
has been usage to consider someone enlightened when the real
nature is recognized and if this recognition doesn't lead to
changes in personality, perspectives, behavior etc., it is
safe to say enlightenment didn't have much of an impact.

Mira:
* If is enlightenment or recognition of real nature is
considered to be an event with certain consequences like a
change of behavior, it is safe to say that this assumption
is just another concept.

Jan:
Enlightenment isn't a safeguard against wackiness or
distorted views, because in principle, recognition always is
possible; Hitler certainly had an agenda for his version of
spirituality.



Mira:
Self nature, Reality, includes the opposites of creation and
destruction. Whether Hitler realized his nature as such, is
too late to ask. If he indeed would have recognized himself
as being all and everything, while being nothing at all,
would he have had the compulsion to identify himself as
'übermensch', being better and superior to the rest?

True wisdom, even in the role of a destroyer, is not
displayed by conveying concepts.  It is conveyed by exposing
concepts.



Recognition of Self does not necessarily lead to a typical
kind of behavior. Absorbtion in Self is not interfered with
by physical activities. Absorbtion in Self is not dependend
on the behavior of the body.  It may or may not sleep less.
It may or may not eat less.  It may or may not sit down on a
chair staring at the floor.  Behavior has nothing to do with
that recognition.  It may or may not change after
recognition.  To say enlightenment 'should' lead to this...
and this... and this..., is always a concept, bound to be
proven wrong by the next recognition of Self.

______________________________________________________________________

JAN: BALANCING AND BEING

There are no fixed rules or regulations; from my experience
it is tempting to conclude that taking everything as it
comes, is an important tool.  It is a result of knowing,
there is nowhere to go, nowhere to hide and nowhere to
stay.  One cannot run or flee from experiences; getting mad
while caught in a traffic jam doesn't solve anything.
Living as if each moment is the last one, implies among
others one cannot blame so there is nothing to forgive;
meditate on that...



Fear is based on losing and fear of death could be called
the impression of losing body that survives the grave.  In
my case, losing the fear of death and giving up the "will to
live and enjoy" was what started the spontaneous sadhana.
More can be read at
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/umbada/jb.htm

The next discovery was the existence of a fear to enter
nirvikalpa samadhi; in my case, the entering wasn't a skill
but was forced and going into nirvikalpa samadhi in the
presence of "others" felt like having to leave one's house
with all doors and windows wide open :) Of course, the
experiential knowledge of Being without support extinguishes
all fears so this most hidden fear is met just once :)



Techniques, meditation, work, this all is concerning the
mind.
A rather literal translation of the Patanjali sutras (I,1)
and (I,2) is:
1.  Now, an exposition of Yoga (is to be made).
2.  Yoga is the suppression of the transformations of the
thinking principle.
Part of the commentary on 2.:
"The thinking principle" is a comprehensive expression equal
to the Sanskrit word Antahkarana ("inner instrument") which
is divided into 4 parts: Manas (mind), the principle that
cognizes generally; Chitta (individualizing), the idea which
fixes itself upon a point and makes the object its own by
individualizing it; Ahamkara (egoism, "I-maker"), the
principle which connects the individual with the self; and
Buddhi (reason, sometimes called "higher mind" as opposed to
manas, sometimes called "lower mind").



The antahkarana is said to represent the psyche; this is
what "mind-work" is aimed at.



Ascent and descent are referring to the interpretation of
prana in the nadis; no one will experience the same.  Even
when physiologically the experiences would be the same, the
interpretation still could be different.



Without the "I-maker", a notion of separateness, fear,
confinement to a body, can no longer arise.  This means that
all words have become irrelevant as "just being" is the most
ordinary thing in life, yet is most fulfilling and words
cannot possibly express that.



Balancing would mean having to juggle with pairs of
opposites, whereas "just being"
implies nothing remains to balance out.



>From a perspective of "unifying the opposites", K.  could be
called the "ride that ultimately will unify all opposites".
There are as many perspectives as there are (seemingly)
separate minds; if mind experientially is seen to be one,
all perspectives are known.  A free translation of Patanjali
(III,
31) is: Mind without impurity and impediment, attains
infinite knowledge; what is worth knowing in this world
becomes negligible.



_____________________________________________________________________

RAINBO: HANDLING THE FIRE


Alchemy is, yes, a process.  It recognizes that *one* peak
experience does not make for total enlightenment.  There are
many deaths, not one death.  And we die so as so to live, to
awaken.  If one has not had this experience then it makes no
sense, then you have just more words and more concepts.  So,
it is penetrating more deeply into the nature of this
reality through experience and knowing, not understanding a
concept.



There are many roads to Rome, but there are some experiences
that are road signs to Masters, that are evidence of where
the student is.  Now, if you are going to say "one
experience," is sufficient and I am awake, my response is
you have an ego that still needs alot of kundalini fire.
Ego, is one of the stumbling rocks on the road.  So, in
alchemy travel then there are words and phrases used which
sound like just more words until they are experienced as
energy and as the whole of life.  Words can never convey
these experiences, but what can happen is that someone
writes words, I read them and later I think, "oh, dang,
that's what she was talking about."



So, for example, the "philosopher's stone," has a meaning of
firing a chakra so much that it becomes like a diamond,
these words are used in texts from Tibetan Bhuddism to
Judaic Qabalah and the more one knows the more they are the
same, not different.



I am very lucky in that in my childhood there were people
who did not dismiss these events as being imaginary nor did
they make a big deal of them they just said, "okay, so not a
big deal, just be honest."



Having just spent four years in Tree travel with an
exceptionally advanced Teacher, I just told her last week,
"enough," I have had enough fire I need to just get down to
normal kundalini.  We travelled with ten people, and lost
some who couldn't handle the fire along the way.  It is not
easy.  What looks easy under normal life pressure becomes
much more intense under high kundalini fire and kundalini
like arithmetic to physics has levels.



When Jan said he died, that's exactly what he meant, because
when one has the experience of dying to personality and
surrendering to Soul, then one really, at least, I really
thought, I was dying, it scared the Hell out of me, but I
managed to surrender and then, phew *g*, but this happens
more than once at different stages and it is past the mystic
experiences and so on.  (And, if I misunderstood or
misquoted you feel free to correct me.)



So, the beginning the k fires the dross and then it fires
the more subtle energetic realms so, that first the physical
body is effected and cleared, then the emotional body and
then the mental body ...  the mental being one of the most
difficult to get past because we are attached to our notions
of "this is it, this is all, now i get it."



There are ever yet more layers, that only in the here and
now is God pervading everywhere and everything.  Someone
wrote, "when I write a check this is not God."
Umm, yes, actually this is God too.  This past year, I had
to go home because the k fired so hard for several months,
and i said, "God, look, I have a child to take care of and
the house to clean, I can't walk around so fired that I
can't think straight."  God's response was that I didn't
trust Him and that it would be okay.  And, the money dropped
out of the sky and it was okay.



So, this is Alchemy, to study Cosmic Law and to understand
that arithmetic is not Calculus, that Dr.  Suess is not
Plato, most deep thinkers through the centuries have
explored alchemy, simply because after one explores anything
deeply this becomes the last veil to understanding any
subject at all, Einstein, Jung, Goethe, Plato, St.  Francis,
Dalai Lama, etc., all ended and some began with studying
alchemy.  Please do not make me go hunting for their quotes,
I can do that and use them to support what I say but I
prefer that if it interests you that you study yourself and
find your own path.



Explaining Alchemy in an email is like explaining the entire
field of Chemistry in an email, the TCA cycle is enough with
tiny letters to fill a forty by twenty foot living room with
all the chemical reactions that occur, so, this is not to be
considered a really good explanation, it is merely an
attempt on my part to say this is a field like chemistry is
a field.



The universe is rather large *g* there are many fields to
play in and even Einstein never found the key to his "GUT"
theory in numbers, it is in the experience.



I hope this small explanation is helpful.



______________________________________________________________________

JAN AND DAN: WHOLE AS FRAGMENT, FRAGMENT AS WHOLE


Jan:  <snip> Don't forget Hitler, Mussolini, man-eating
emperor Bocassa and Stalin were enlightened too.



Dan:  I think you are pointing to enlightenment as including
"all that is."Hitler and Mussolini are "fragments" of all
that is.  In fact, so are the personages of Gautama, Ramana,
Jesus, Mohammed or Moses.  So to take in "all that is" "all
at once"  is not to mistake a fragment for the Whole, but to
see the Whole activated in each and every fragment.



Jan:  <<The behavior will testify whether and what the
mortal shell "gets out of it".



Dan:  "By their fruits you shall know them."  Does the
fragment realize it and all are activations of One, or does
the fragment operate like a finger trying to behave
independently from the hand?



Jan:
Enlightenment is default; in fact very ordinary.  So by
itself it won't end the tendency to find pleasures "outside"
like relationships and entertainment; whereas for ones like
Ramana the bliss of Self is all that matters.



Dan:  This is why someone like Ramana is used as a symbol of
the Whole as fragment and fragment as Whole.  Which is what
Jesus symbolized as well.Such "pointers" suggest that we
"find" what the symbol points to, and not focus attention on
the symbol as an end in itself.




Jan:  <snip> it has been usage to consider someone
enlightened when the real nature is recognized and if this
recognition doesn't lead to changes in personality,
perspectives, behavior etc., it is safe to say enlightenment
didn't have much of an impact.



Dan:
For me, you raise a very good point here.  Constructive
changes such as you mention are inevitable as the "fragment"
recognizes its inherent nonfragmented being.  It then can
only act resonantly with "all that is" -- could a person
such as a Hitler or Mussolini be acting in awareness,
resonantly with all that is?  It seems the opposite, that
they are acting resonantly with all that is only
unconsciously, and such resonation leads them to "act out"
the unconscious motives, hatreds, etc.  with those around
them.  To me, looking at all this shows the value of
awareness as such, and the difficulties for us when we take
unconsciousness for awareness -- as you said, Hitler had a
spiritual agenda" and those who took this as such were
willing to take the encouragement to remain unconscious as
spirituality.  I feel what we get at here is the
differentiation between remaining comfortably unaware in an
oceanic feeling of emotion, patriotism, and destruction or
facing the "discomfort" of awakening by dealing clearly with
"all that is"
as Self.



Jan:
Enlightenment isn't a safeguard against wackiness or
distorted views, because in principle, recognition always is
possible; Hitler certainly had an agenda for his version of
spirituality.



Dan:  As did Charlie Manson.  And he did recognize something
to some extent. However, the rage in him did not quiet, and
he "used" enlightenment for the ends of his rage.  The
fragment did not surrender to the Whole, but attempted to
use some awareness of the Whole toward its ends.  This is
the general trend associated with imbalanced practice on the
"Left Hand Path" but such imbalance occurs in its own way on
the "Right Hand Path."  Only the Middle Way is the
"safeguard" to which you alluded.  Only if the fragment
recognizes the Whole as fully Self, and the self as fully in
and from the Self, can the constructive changes you alluded
to be fulfilled.



____________________________________________________________________

JERRY: A GIFT FOR DOLORES

Since there are many cat lovers here, I'd thought I'd send
the following.  I received an email yesterday, on the day of
Dolores' (my late wife's) birthday, coincidentally.  It's
about cat's and starfish and people and is heartfelt,
genuine and touching.  A birthday gift to Dolores.  The lady
who wrote it, Mary McCloud-Reid, stayed in our bed and
breakfast.  I don't remember her, but I guarantee you
Dolores would have.  ("Yes, I remember eXACtly who they
were...").
Here's the letter...



Oh Jerry I am so very sorry to hear that Delores has passed
away.  I cannot tell you how often I have thought of both of
you.  My husband and I stayed there many years ago when you
had Comere, your cat.  I remember the story of how the kitty
got that name because you would just say come here.  I wrote
to you both a few years after visiting and learned that
Comere had passed away.



You may remember the time we visited.  The fog was so thick
you could not even see 2 feet in front of you.  There were 2
travelers on bicycles who asked to stay but you were full so
they set up tents in your front yard.  We used to travel
quite a bit and named our cats after favorite places.

You'll be glad to learn that we have a cat named Comere
named for our very fond memories of staying with you at
Dover House.  I always remembered the beautiful story of how
you and Delores met, when you were living in California I
believe.  It was instant love and you came all the way to
the East coast to be with her.  I just looked at your web
page.  My tears have finally stopped.  I have a few things
to share with you my friend.


There was a man walking on a beautiful beach one afternoon
after the tide had gone out. When he turned round past a
rocky cove he saw millions of starfish that were stranded.
The sun would surely kill them.  He began picking them up as
quickly as he could and tossing them back into the ocean.
Another man came by and saw the sad event and said why are
you bothering to do this, there are so so many, you cannot
possibly save them all.  The first man said, as he tossed
yet another starfish into the water, but I can save this
one.

I took the word starfish and scrambled it to come up with a
name for one of my cats.  We called her Fratishs.  My
original tishy died but when we adopted another cat we gave
her the same name.  We call her Tishy 2.  We currently have
15 beautiful cats that have either been saved from local
animal shelters where I sometimes volunteer or were strays
that found their way to our loving home.  Thru the years I
have helped many people to get veterinary care or food for
their cats.  I even have a web page at Ebay where I sell
antiques/collectible.  I am sending the link, I know Delores
would love this. You probably will too.

http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/mmccloudre@aol.com/

I do not think it is a coincidence that I have located you
on Delores's Birthday.  There are many events that happen
for a reason as I know you are sure.  My anniversary is June
16th the day she passed away.

JOSEPH

His life was one of hardship,
as if no human cared.
He spent his days in seeking out
a home that could be shared.
'Twas evident he'd felt the sting
of stones and stick and rod.
He cowered when you stepped too close
this tomcat child of God.
One of his lowly common beasts,
his plight soon touched my heart.
Though prone to fights among his peers,
of my life he became a part.
Had I known him sooner
perhaps I could have made
his life so much more gentler
than the price for wounds he paid.
His body shows the signs of strife
but with care and daily food,
he soon began to show the world
someone cared - as well they should.
His eyes shone with love in every look,
their lemon amber gleamed.
he sat with me in sweet repose
he returned my love it seemed.
Fate has a cruel turn sometimes,
so quickly Joseph paled.
Despite the love and best of care,
all earthly efforts failed.
I like to think he had a little time
to know life is not all sad.
That someone had real love for him,
I tried to change to good the bad.
Each animal that I have known
the ones that I've called "mine"
were simply lent for months or years
a gift for a short time.
The lesser children of our God
they look to us each day,
to help them meet the needs they seek
while they walk with us this way.
I'll not forget my Joseph
though his days were short with me.
I pray his soul now rests in peace
his small feline spirit free.

(by Ruth Jenkins, April 3, 1990)


____________________________________________________________________

THE PATHWAY OF NONDUALITY

by Raphael

Chapter 4

Parmenides and His Vision

Q.  Which Western Vision can we consider nearest to
Gaudapada's Ajativada?



A.  That of Parmenides.  For him too the teaching is based
upon the above mentioned postulates.  For the Eleatic there
is only one Way which solves the existential enigma, a way
which 'lies far away from the path beaten by men', a pathway
which leads to that doorway which transcends Day and Night
(Duality), and reveals the a-spatial Reality, a way which is
'...devoid of temporal end'.  Parmenides' Way is also the
one which Yajnavalkya describes in the Brhadaranyaka
Upanisad (IV, iv, 8):



"A narrow way laid down in ancient times, leading to me, by
me it was discovered.  By it the strong, knowers of Brahman,
freed from this one ascend to the high celestial world."



Parmenides' is undoubtedly an initiatory pathway and the
most modern and attentive exegesis seems to be orientated
towards this conclusion.



Jaeger too agrees with this thesis when he writes: "Before
this super-human prelude (speaking of Parmenides' proem)
nobody can believe that the philosopher wished to place
himself in the limelight.  The vision of this mysterious
event in the kingdom of light is an authentic religious
experience: the experience of human eyes which turn towards
the hidden truth, so that the whole life is transfigured."
But this kind of religiousness "must be sought in the
religiousness of the Initiations and of the Mysteries.
Parmenides was able to grasp this because in Southern Italy,
in his day, these ideas were widespread."



For the Eleatic there exists, therefore, a sole Way and a
sole Reality; Being in that It 'is'. It is unity, actuality,
permanency, not subject either to birth or death, one and
indivisible.  Only that Being which 'is and does not
become', which is complete, ever present, identical to
Itself is necessarily a Reality which fills everything.



"Being ungenerated, it is also imperishable, entire, sole,
still and endless.  It never was nor will be because it is
now whole, one, continuous.  In fact, what origin can you
wish to seek for It?  How and where could It have been born?
Of non-being I shall not allow you to speak or think.  In
fact, what is not cannot be uttered or thought of.  And even
so, what need could have urged It, which rises from nothing,
to be born, before or after?  Therefore it is necessary for
It to be either wholly or not at all. And never shall the
force of true conviction allow that anything different from
It be born of Being."



It can only be known through the mediation of that noetic
(immediate understanding and, according to Stefanini's
exegesis, 'contemplative ecstasy') and epistemological
knowledge that reveals only the supreme intelligible.
Knowledge is that "...upon which Persuasion walks, and
Persuasion is the follower of truth".



For Parmenides too the world of names and forms (the
empirical world) is simple appearance, and is presented (as
in Gaudapada) as a dialectical moment and not as absolute
necessity.



"Therefore they will all be just names, which mortals have
established, convinced that they are true: birth and death,
being and non-being, change of place and mutation of
brilliant color."



Becoming, contingent and change seem, from a false
standpoint, to be and exist.



"But from this way [of opinion, which believes that things
that are not are] of research remove your thought....This
cosmic order, apparent as it is, I shall reveal to you in
detail, so that no opinion of any mortal may overcome you."


``````````````````````````````````

I am learning that Raphael, the author of this book, is a
one-man Nonduality Salon.  Visit his site at

http://www.vidya-ashramvidyaorder.org/index.html

_____________________________________________________________________

INVITATION TO A NONDUAL GATHERING

From: "lou Monte" <loumonte@...>

dear friends, because of the very unexpected response to my
invitation of an nd gathering at my home on long island on
sunday, october 17 with an emphasis on some douglas harding
experiments, i cannot accept any more participants-------
ok, maybe just one more.  thankyou for responding and
thankyou, greg, for suggesting this announcement.  best
wishes, lou

______________________________________________________________________

BEN AND JAN: CLEANING THE BOOT

Hi Jan!
Discarding the body is an interesting concept.  How does it
happen?



Hi Ben,
When a Jain monk feels to become a burden to society, no
food or drink is taken; death of the body will follow
swiftly.
There is no suffering in this; an article appeared in New
Scientist about it (though not related to Jain monks..).  I
know in Holland, people with severe dementia as to forget
eating and drinking, aren't reminded or assisted to do so
and will die (without suffering)
as a result.  But the more common reason to discard the body
is escape from suffering ( like euthanasia).  The common
reasons always are escape, not knowing there is no escape
from life.



Ben:
As far as personal tradgedies goes, isn't the idea to quit
making personal?



Jan:
All feelings are personal.  Recognition of suffering
presupposes "personal" suffering.  A young child can only
find out that flames can cause severe pain by burning its
hand; from then on, the pain caused by burns can be
recognized.  The human interface has its limitations; when
the "personal" limit of suffering is reached, the wish to
end life will arise.



Ben:
Yes indeed, what is to happen in the case of the dying body?
This inquiring mind wants to know.



Jan:
There isn't a simple answer to that; a few of the
determining factors are fear, identification, beliefs.  From
the perspective of identification with mind-body, a loss of
control is taking place; thoughts will be determined by the
fear of losing or the presiding belief.  So the number of
variations is huge; some will die with an expression of
torture on the face whereas others will look peaceful as if
in dreamless sleep.  If there is no fear, no identification,
no belief, nothing is happening except a "last" smile :)



Ben:
Is reincarnation a verifiable concept?



Jan:
It is quite possible to have many debates on reincarnation.
>From the perspective that no one is born and no one is
dying, reincarnation has two faces:
1.  The seeming fragmentation of Being into a multiplicity
of beings, coming into existence and fading away
2.  The seeming fragmentation of experiences over a sequence
of bodies coming into existence and fading away, retaining
memory of (part of) the sequence.



Regarding 2., one might say there is circumstantial
evidence.
"Hard" evidence cannot be obtained as there are many
possible explanations, like the assumption of "universal"
memory, containing the record of all events and
"accidentally" tapping it.  If one considers life to be a
game, 2.  isn't far-fetched; instead of a forced "clean
boot", made impressions will remain, enabling the game to be
finished without "personal"
effort, irrespective of the "length" of the sequence.
___________________________________________________________________


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This is a supplement to the regular highlights. It features
all of Petros' reports on Satsang with Byron Katie. Future
ones will be added to the regular Highlights. One thing I
enjoy doing with digests I get from various lists, is
printing them out to read at work during breaks or slow
time; they can be read at any number of places beyond the
reach of the computer: the bus, the laundromat, any kind of
waiting room, during a stop on a long walk, in bed, at you
friend's while hanging out, all kinds of places. I use a
9-pin or 24-pin printer on draft mode, so the copies are
cheap. For this purpose alone it is worth spending under $50
for a good used printer.

-Jerry

______________________________________________________________________
PETROS REPORTS:


Check out Byron Katie's website at http://www.thework.org
first for some background on this, then you'll get more out
of my report.

Katie's teaching is more psychological in nature than
metaphysical.  It's referred to simply as "the Work" (tm),
and she has "intensives" and two-week "certification"
courses rather than satsangs.  The intensives are free or
for donation only, but the longer courses may be expensive.

This weekend's intensive was held in a hotel ballroom in El
Segundo, adjacent to LAX for convenience I suppose.  It was
set up like a satsang, with about a hundred chairs facing a
wide dais with a comfy couch upon which Katie sat.  She has
a very professional organization, with video monitors
arranged about the room and several wireless microphones
that volunteer assistants could pass around to people who
had questions and comments.  Katie herself wore a headset
mike, which meant you didn't have to strain to hear what was
being said.

Essentially she asked who was taking "the Work" for the
first time, and picked someone from the group of raised
hands to come up and sit beside her on the couch.  Prior to
the start of the meeting everyone who registered was handed
a piece of paper on which to write down the basic
self-inquiry questions in the Work which could then be
discussed on the platform.

Katie has a soft but very confident and intelligent manner.
Her whole work consists of encouraging people to "turn
around" their judgments of others, bring them back to
themselves, so that they can see clearly how their judgments
of others merely reflect self-judgment.  She says it's best
to begin by judging others, because we're so good at it!

After working with one man's particular problem for about
ten or fifteen minutes, Katie turned to the audience and
encouraged people to provide feedback; then used this
feedback itself as a means of showing each person how they
are really addressing themselves.  The exciting part is that
eventually people "get it," and actually *listen* to
themselves before saying anything that they wouldn't be able
to "turn around" and put back on themselves.

More on "the Work" in my next post.
___________________________________________________________________

When you register at the desk you are handed the "little
blue book" which contains the written portion of The Work
(tm.)  In a nutshell, this is:
"Judge your neighbor, write it down, ask four questions,
turn it around!"

Also one is handed a clipboard and a printed form which
contains the same questions, and one is "invited" to fill
this out prior to the beginning of the intensive.  The
inquiry is as follows:

1.  Who or what don't you like?  Who or what irritates you?
Who or what saddens or disappoints you?  (I don't like or am
angry at ________________, because ___________________.)

(When one of Katie's volunteers greeted me at the
registration desk and helped me find a seat I was already a
little annoyed, as I tend to get very hostile and
hyper-cynical before anything of this sort.  When she asked
me without any preface, "Who are you angry at?" I thought
she was reading the expression on my face and was a little
taken aback until I realized she was just showing me how to
do the inquiry.  I considered saying something like, "People
who ask stupid questions" but my brain wasn't working fast
enough.

Maybe I'm coming down with a bug or something, but I felt
rather under-the-weather this morning and the sight of all
those tanned Californians hugging and kissing each other and
getting all slimy just made me a little queasy.)

2.  How do you want them to change?  What do you want them
to do?  (I want __________ (name) to ____________.)

3.  What is it they should or shouldn't do, be, think or
feel?  What advice could you offer?

4.  Do you need anything from them?  What do they need to
give you or do for you to be happy?

(Katie says, "Personalities don't love, they want
something.")

5.  What do you think of them?  Make a list.

6.  What is it that you don't want to experience with that
person, thing or situation again?


The "four questions" part is:
a.  Is it true?
b.  Can I really know that it's true?
c.  How do I react when I think this thought?
d.  Who would I be without this thought?

And the big "shift" comes at the Turn Around portion of the
Work, which follows in my next post.

______________________________________________________________________

After dialoging with someone form the audience, going
through the person's six questions and four inquiries, Katie
works to get the person to turn the judgment around, back
onto oneself.  This is the most important part of the whole
process, and is where the real shift of awareness comes in.
This is also why Katie wants us to start work with *others*
rather than ourselves, since we have so much more practice
judging others (this is also a good example of her subtle
humor.) It also creates more of a shift when the turn-around
takes place.

For instance.  The first person up on the couch with Katie
was an Australian man who decided to write about a Rajneesh
therapist he knew by the name of Tirtha.  He read from his
notes that he felt this man was continually bullying him,
disrespecting him, and had prejudice against him.  Katie
said "turn it around."  Thus: "I am continually bullying
myself, disrespecting myself, and have prejudice against
myself."  The point is *not* to try to get rid of these
negative attitudes, but to go deeply within and experience
them.

Quotes from Katie:
"You cannot fail to be whole.  Whatever name you are given,
you can find within yourself if you go deeply enough.  I am
always discovering new names for myself to make myself more
whole.  For instance, if my husband says I'm an asshole, I
can go deeply enough inside to find that in me.  When he
says I'm wonderful, if I go deeply enough inside I can find
that there too."

"It's not other people's job to acknowledge you or like you;
that's your job."

"Thoughts appear.  It's not personal.  You're not doing it."


Though the intensive was scheduled from 9:30-4:30 today and
Sunday, I left after just an hour because I felt I had
"gotten" what she was saying.  I was feeling a lot better
about everyone there, no more hostility or irritation, so I
figured that was a good time to leave.  Maybe I'll come back
tomorrow morning.

____________________________________________________________________

You know, I felt after I left the meeting this morning that
something really important was going on there.  There is
this sense one receives from Byron that there is almost no
"person" left inside her.  Just a precise responsiveness to
others.  Yet I was too asleep or dull to appreciate it until
hours later.  I will come back Sunday morning and sit in on
another session.


____________________________________________________________________

Quotes from _Losing the Moon: Byron Katie Dialogues on
Non-Duality, Truth and Other Illusions_.


"As God, I'm watching my image.  It's called you.  It's
called the books over there.  It's called the wall.
Fireplace.  Everything.  Okay?  So I'm watching it, and I
thought I was that.  I thought I was God.  Here's how I came
in as a reversal: I wasn't born this woman for 43 years and
then awakened -- I was BORN.  I was born at what you would
call age 43.  I came from nowhere and nothing.  It was wiped
out.  I looked at my hand for the first time.  I came in
through a back door."

"I'm too beautiful to be nothing and no-one.  Give me a
mirror.  Why would I deny my very self?"

"To wake up forever implies time.  To wake up is just a past
history apparently arising.  It's old.  It's to keep you
from the experience now.  .  .
.  The stories go on, but without attachment to the story.
And that's what the inquiry leaves us with.  The freedom of
non-attachment.  Internal. Detachment from the movie."

"When you look at, 'What do I get for holding the belief, I
want to be enlightened,' you see you get to stay stuck in
what you quote Ramana as saying is the problem ["The only
obstacle to your enlightenment is the belief that you are
not enlightened." Ramana Maharshi].  And the inquiry shows
that beyond a doubt.  .  .  .  And who would you be without
it?  That's when you go into that space.  And you can
continue to hold the same concept after investigation, but
without attachment, which is mostly what I experience you do
anyway.  You can't long for what you don't know.  The
concept is what you say it is."

"And I could honestly say, 'Nothing is God.' It doesn't even
exist, it's just one more concept.  But when a person has
'God is good, everything is God,' then everything has to
fall into that pocket.  It's a one-mindedness.  .
.  .  And it's infinite.  So, it's that symbol that I
suggest to people.
Everything will fall into it, beautifully.  And on the other
side of it, when all falls into it, you come to see that it
is nothing."

"For some of us, to go back to the Self is to ignore what's
out there -- it's a direction that would exclude.  And I
say, love where you are, because that's my experience."

"I'm pretending not to be non-duality.  Ramana holds the
place where people can understand that truth.  And I pretend
I don't.  And there's no 'I' doing it.  It's just an
appearance."

__________________________________________________________________

I returned to the Byron Katie intensive this afternoon for a
couple of hours.  I was feeling a lot better.  I definitely
confirmed the sense I got yesterday about the quality of
BK's method of approach and understanding.

She invited a 12-year old boy up to her couch to dialogue
about some abuse he had experienced from a stepfather, and
time he spent in a shelter for single women and their
children.  Katie listened as he read from his "Work sheet"
the six questions (see my earlier post) and helped him
through the process of "turning it around."  (This process
of writing it down, going through each inquiry, and "turning
it around" is called "doing the work.")

Judgments of other people in our lives are thus clarified
and turned around, so that we can easily see how we are
really only ever judging ourselves.

Negative judgments are inquired into.

Crucial Katie-isms:
"Who would I be without this thought?  Who would I be
without this story?"

"Can you see a reason for keeping this thought?  Don't *try*
to get rid of it!  But can you see a reason for keeping it?
Who would you be without this thought?"

"Is this judgment true?  Can you know that _____________ is
true?"

"Judge your neighbor, write it down, ask four questions,
turn it around."

"If you're over in someone else's mind dealing with their
business, and they're in there dealing with it anyway,
that's two of you over there, and there's nobody where YOU
are.  No wonder you feel lonely!"

"Except for the story, there's no reality to it.  Ever."

This process took about half an hour, after which Katie
opened the dialogue up to the audience for comments,
questions and general feedback.  Most people in the audience
offerred their support and encouragement to the boy.  He
really did fantastically well.  Afterward everyone was
invited up to the couch to give him a big hug.  (His mom
too.)

______________________________________________________________________

ALEKS QUESTIONS PETROS

aleks:
you mentioned that byron katie is working from a
psychological rather than metaphyical ground.

Petros:
Yes, it comes across as psychological or psychoanalytical,
but in fact the source is from a much deeper place.  I can
sense it in her dialogues with people.  I just bought one of
her books at the meeting today and in it, she is quite
explicit about her debt to the teachings of Ramana and
nonduality in general.  More on this later.  I can
understand the tactic of not making this explicit in public
gatherings, however -- in order to make her teaching more
accessible to people who may be put off by esoteric concepts
and Indian terminology.  (Katie does this much more so than
Gangaji, who still makes use of Indian concepts and
phrases.)

aleks:
interesting, cause a thought/question crossed my mind after
the gangaji satsang along these lines.  she claimed the
same-- said she wouldn't use the word enlightenment, or
ignorance!  that hers was not a religion or a denomination.
the question is-- then why the air of spiritual gathering?
the pranams, the silence, the lineage.  ...  i mean-- if
you're not building a church, why put a steeple on it?

Petros:
Interesting question.  You should have asked Gangaji
directly.

In my experience, some sort of setup is necessary.  The
"couch" has become practically a religious icon in
psychotherapy.  In satsang, it's the Chair.
(Though Katie uses a couch on a dais, so that she can have a
person sit next to her during dialogue and everyone can
see.)

Katie also has some flowers and music, and photos of her can
be purchased along with audio and video cassettes of prior
intensives.  However, there is no prostration or folding of
hands (namaste), it's very "western" except for the dais
arrangement.  I mean, anyone (like me) who's been to many
satangs would immediately see the Indian influence and
either feel comforted (like me) or put off (if someone had
bad experiences with "gurus" in the past.)

aleks:
would you say that katie is more western in her
presentation?

Petros:
Definitely, except for the details mentioned above.  I'll
post some quotations from her book soon and we can read
places where she expresses a debt to folks like Ramana
Maharshi -- but she doesn't have "a" teacher, as far as I
know.

aleks:
i'll be interested in hearing if you formulate any more
thought about her not seeming to have "a person" left inside
her.  ..  i do know exactly what you're saying there.  ..

Petros:
Yes.  I feel that there is *almost* no personality left in
there.  I mentioned this to a friend of mine who also
attended the intensive and he also knew what I was saying
and agreed.  I say "almost," because Katie does have a
colloquial presentation style and a subtle, ironic humor,
not to mention a typically Californian warmth that makes her
accessible to so many people.  I might venture to suggest
that she has kept just enough of a personality to be
approachable and available to a large number of modern
Western people.

If you lose too much "persona" in this part of the world,
you are not likely to be respected as a Teacher, but just
end up homeless instead.  There's a place for such extremism
in India, but it is not part of our culture.  That's okay,
because I like it this way.


___________________________________________________
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I once had a student that would sit in his house at night.
Shivering with worries and fears.
And come morning he would often look as though he had been
raped by a ghost.
Then one day my pity
Crafted for him a knife from my own Divine sword.
Since then I have become very proud of this student.
For now, come night,
Not only has he lost all his fear,
Now he goes out
Just looking for trouble.


Judi :-)

__________________________________________________________________

GREG:

Francis Lucille's longer sessions are 3-part - silent or
guided meditation, body awareness, and satsang dialogues.
The guided meditation and body awareness sessions are often
to get you to see the body as thoughts, feelings and
sensations rather than as a vehicle for sensing external
objects - the body itself is an external object, as is the
mind.

His style is gentle, poetic, and at times intellectual (he
was a physicist in France).  With sweetness, humility and
compassion, he meets you where you are, wherever that might
be.  His teacher was Jean Klein, and also the books of
Krishna Menon (Sri Atmananda of Tivandrum).  Atmananda was
also one of Jean Klein's personal teachers, but Francis
never met Atmananda.  Francis spent 15 years with Jean Klein
before teaching, as he said that understanding is one thing,
but teaching is quite another!

Francis talks about Silence as our true nature, even when we
think it's the body or mind or ego or memories.  He also
emphasizes art, love, and sweetness.
______________________________________________________________________

JOE MARKEL:


The Levels of Daas

Now we find that this aspect of Iyun (repetitive deep study)
is just in the aspect of a vessel in regard to the actual
deep delving of Binah itself.  In other words, the deep
intensive study is just a vessel for reaching a true deep
comprehension.


At first glance this Iyun is what is called the deep
concentration of the mind in the language of the world, that
is, Meditation or Contemplation.  But it is not so since the
concentration of the mind is just a vessel to come to the
depths of the thing actually (as it is).Meaning that
concentration on the subject matter is necessary in order to
come to its depth.


So there is the Daas below Binah which is the concentrative
contemplation necessary to grasp the analytical explanation.


And the Daas between Binah and Chochma which is the
concentrative contemplation necessary to bring the flash of
Chochmah into Binah.


And higher than this is called a Ma'amik (deep delver) who
reaches higher than even the wisdom itself.  Even though the
Chochmah is in the aspect of being the actual Ein (nothing)
(non-apprehended ethereal source) of the concept before it
came to be include in the depth of the point of the Musag of
Binah (the idea as it is intellectually grasped by
understanding).  Like a spring in regards to a river as
stated above.  But the aspect of going deep into the root of
the idea, the root of this (aspect) reaches into the root
which brings forth the flowing of the spring of Chochmah
etc.  and is called the depths of Chochmah or the hidden
places of Chochmah.  And this is the Daas above Chochmah and
Binah.


And according to the above, what the world calls Haamakas
Hadaas (the deep engrossment of the mind - Daas is usually
translated as knowledge),this is not the main substance of
the deep delving like the depth of the Musag of Binah for
this has no relationship to Daas.


But rather, Daas is the aspect of the thorough bonding of
his feeling (of the mind) to the Musag (concept) and this is
what brings about the aspect of deep (comprehension) of the
musag after the above mentioned Iyun so that it is just like
an aspect of a vessel to the depth of the Hasogah (the
understood concept) as was stated above.


So that the contemplative or meditative concentration is
only a vessel to get to the depth of a subject.  Wheras the
Iyun of Binah, that is, intensive analytical explanatory
study is the vessel to the actual subject itself.

______________________________________________________________________

RAINBOW:

Yes, I know no humans at Binah but I like to drink earth's
beauty with my eyes ...
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/SoftAngelLight/Binah.html">
~*Binah*~*Ave Maria~Stella Maris*~</A>Denis Labouré finishes
the section of binah in yetzirah by these words.


"We say that a trial (épreuve) does not happen without a
sufficient quantity of grace to confront it, being
associated to it.  The Aralim supply this support.  They are
the support of the dictates of wisdom, giving them the form
needed to manifest"


______________________________________________________________________

BEN AND JAN

Ben:


Thank you for your responses.  I have read about meditation
where the purpose is to rid identification to the mind and
the body, but I can't imagine how someone would spend time
directing awarness to stop identifying what is seen,
thought, or felt daily.  Unless maybe there is a change in
focus from thoughts, feelings, and body on to awareness
itself?  Maybe this is what I am doing by practicing self
enquiry although I have thought this a temporary tool for
finding out who I really am more than trying to switch my
focus.


Jan:


Describing what happens during meditation can be rather
tricky.  When identifying with the mind-body, it seems a
continuous change.  By having a certain experience, it adds
to existing experience and unless one is aware of the
process, it can influence the description of experiences
before that certain experience.


One cannot get rid off identifications "just like that".
Becoming aware of "what is" requires one puts a little stick
between the spokes of the revolving wheel constituted by the
ongoing thoughts and feelings; more like the proverbial
"what is between breathing in and breathing out".  When one
has become angry, the identification has occurred already;
the art is to become aware of arising of thoughts and
feelings, "seeing" the seeds sprouting so to say, then
proceeding to "Who is the Seer?"


Ben:


I understand what you are saying about feelings being
personal.  Sometime feelings are so automatic it seems as if
they are before a personal cognitive thought.  You see, I
think the root of my questions seems to stem from the "I am
not the doer" concept.  In one way, this does make sense,
because there is cognition, and then an act and/or
feelings.  O.K., so this is personal.


Jan:


As a rule, thinking revolves around feeling.  So when a
feeling is generated, thoughts will arise.  The stick
between the spokes could be contemplation of the "why these
thoughts", particularly when the thoughts are destructive
(like anger).
The "why" itself doesn't have to be resolved; regarding
anger, it can often be traced to unpleasant experiences
during youth.
One doesn't have to react this way, expressing anger; any
habit can be changed.  Not the change in itself is that
important, but the awareness of becoming identified.


Ben:


In another way, I have had experiences of saying and doing
things where afterwards I wonder who it was that said or did
this.  I have no idea where it came from, and often I am
impressed by what was said or done, but in no way sense that
I could take credit for any of it.  It is rather amazing and
fuels the "It is All God" concept that occurred to me years
ago.  I hope these ramblings are making sense?


Jan:



Fortunately, "forgetting oneself" happens quite often.  It
results in spontaneity, "heroic" behavior and other
remarkable feats; Who remains when forgetting oneself?



Ben:


The only reincarnation concept that I have been able to
really understand is the one I heard from Vartman which I
think lines up with your number 1.  It goes something like
this.  We have thoughts or ideas about ourselves and who we
are.  These thoughts appear and disappear, so I think that
it is stated that really reincarnation happens when there is
identification with the "I thought" that says I am this or
that.  In this sense, I have been reincarnated millions of
time in my life already?


Jan:


Authors like Max Heindel considered reincarnation from the
simplest form of life to most complicated life form as the
journey of the divine spark , back to God again, finally
coming Home.  The entire identification is what one could
remember, but isn't what will be remembered, as traumas have
to potency to wipe out memory.  The trauma of birth is the
first one and it could be prevented.  The limited human
interpretation is always a projection; it is far easier to
think in terms of a sequence than in terms of experiencing
simultaneous events.  The type 1.  reincarnation is the
simultaneity whereas type 2.  is sequential.


Ben:


The other type of reincarnation is beyond my current
perception which is why I asked the question.Obviously, I
lack clarity on some of these things which is why I read
more than I interact.  I don't know if you have ever heard
the song, the ankle bone is connected to the leg bone, the
leg bone is connected to the hip bone, etc...  Well my ego
bone is connected to my mouth bone.  Ha!


Anyone that cares to jump in feel free to go for it.


Jan:


Yes, I vaguely remember that song.  My favorite of the
sixties was Harry Belafonte's "there's a hole in the
bucket".  It is about a loop of causality.


"We" start it somewhere, "arrive" again at the start only to
find out there wasn't any going in the first place and
despite the seeming causality "we" still know nothing :)
___________________________________________________________________

JUDI:


Here's one for you Petros, beings how you're in the market
for a house....


"A One Story House"


I am so glad my Master lived in a one story house.
When I began to traverse the early stages of love.
For when he would speak of the wonders and the beauty of
creation, When he began to reveal the magnificent realities
of God.
I could not control my happiness, And would commence an
ecstatic dance That most always resulted in a tremendous
encore --- A dive, head first, out of his window.


Hafiz, the Friend was very kind to you during those early
years And you only broke your big nose seventeen times!
______________________________________________________________________

DAN:


insofar as one discusses a temporal being experiencing
reality, one can discuss that being's choice to be aware or
not be aware.  The choice is involved in whether one
identifies with remaining unconscious or is willing to let
go of continuity and open.
Insofar as "enlightenment" is the interpenetration of part
and Whole, one is then beyond choice or determination.  One
hasn't "chosen" the enlightenment "experience" - one *is*
and this *isness* is all that is.
Enlightenment is just another word at that point.
______________________________________________________________________

MIRA AND DAN:

Mira:  Recognition of Self does not necessarily lead to a
typical kind of behavior.  Absorbtion in Self is not
interfered with by physical activities. Absorbtion in Self
is not dependend on the behavior of the body.  It may or may
not sleep less.  It may or may not eat less.  It may or may
not sit down on a chair staring at the floor.  Behavior has
nothing to do with that recognition.  It may or may not
change after recognition.  To say enlightenment 'should'
lead to this...  and this...  and this..., is always a
concept, bound to be proven wrong by the next recognition of
Self.


Dan:  This statement expresses to me that the One is not
fragmented, and its being considered as behavior or activity
of all beings and universes is inseparable from its Being
considered as Infinite Reality.  The Self is the being of
all beings, which is in no way a separate quality or
condition (which is why words such as being, beingness, or
Being are *very*misleading), so how could It be "understood"
as "evidenced through (specific types of) behavior"?  It is
I who would evidence my misunderstanding by looking to
verify certain behaviors or beings as "enlightened." Once I
see it is I, only I, and I alone - what is there then to
find evidence of?  What is there to prove, explain, nullify,
etc.?  -- with love --

____________________________________________________________________

TOMAS:

A teacher at the elementary school I work at handed me this
book- "The Road less traveled" by Scott Peck- the cover
described it as "a new Psychology of love, traditional
values and spiritual growth".  I had heard this book
mentioned previously here and there but never read it. It
came out in the 70's and has been re-printed many times.
The author has written many books after that which expanded
upon it in various ways.


I'm extreamly impressed with this book- specifically for the
integrity to truth that it communicates.  It doesnt expound
upon non-doership or the point of view of there being no
seperate anything in awareness itself but it provides
valuable focus on the integrity of our intention by way the
need and significance of discipline (in the context of
truth), and love.


He address, in a beautiful and succinct fashion, the paradox
of effort and grace.  He uses the term Serendipity to
capture it.  I've never caught on to that word before but I
now see how it captures it.  He also addresses our
resistence to grace.  It struck me as a wonderful book for
begining conversations that create a solid foundation for
sudtler and deeper view points.


It might be a nice ice- breaker holiday gift kind of book.


It amazed me how bold his insights were considering the time
that this book first came out and the world he was
addressing.


He make lots of great references in his books (to Idries
Shah, to Carlos Castenda, Kahlil Gibran, Sam Keen, Jung,
some Buddhism and Christianity)


It's the kind of book I wish I had years ago.  As I read it
and could appretiate some of the prejudices I've picked up
regarding psychotherapy (the author basis all his insights
on his own life as well as his experience as Pychotherapist)


I think I have tended to overlook it's real usefulness for
lack of examples such as the author of this book.  It sounds
silly but I always figured if it doesnt explicitly start
with nonduality as it's acknowledged context it was useless
or maybe even burdensome.


I am now reading two other books of his "Further along the
Road less traveled" and "The different Drum:Community making
and peace"-

I think for those interested in community dynamics (like the
activity of the Nonduality Salon itself and other community
phenomenon) his book "The different Drum" might be very
interesting.  I can comment more on that later- I'm working
with a group of student in an after school project and I'm
curious to see what this book can offer.

___________________________________________________
Nonduality Salon Website
http://www.nonduality.com
Nonduality Salon Email Forum
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/nondualitysalon
Nonduality Salon Chat
http://www.eScribe.com/religion/nondualitysalon/chat
Nonduality Salon List of Nondual People
http://www.nonduality.com/morea.htm
Encyclopedia of Nonduality
http://www.nonduality.com/context.htm

JERRY:

Billions of lines of wisdom are uttered;
It takes only one to serve as a world.
Who knows what happens to the rest?
And what is all this uttering about?
________________________________________________________________________
DAN:

The concept of enlightenment can be very misleading...
IT can become a type of experience that some have and others
don't, and some want, and others don't.  It then becomes a kind of
commodity, something to have or get.  My point of view on this is that
this
kind of enlightenment sounds very limited and limiting.  It seems to me
better to throw out that concept and begin with one's awareness exactly
where one is.  What is the difference between your current awareness and
"enlightenment" or "perfection"?  Is that difference created by anything
other than one's own concepts, one's own "mind"?
One could discuss one's awareness as "realization."  A holistic
understanding of realization would result in this equation:
awareness=reality=realization=being.  Now, did this equation arise from
effort or will?  No.  It's simply "what is" when thoughts, feelings,
reactions to percepived separations are released.  Did such a release
arise
from desire, intention, grace, or predestination? A holistic
understanding
shows that these all "come together" in one instant of being.  This
instant
could be considered totally free expression of what is, and totally
determined by the nature of what is.  It's grace and intention unified.
This is clear when one sees that the self/other dichotomy is equivalent
to
the will/grace dichotomy and the choice/predestination dichotomy.
Resolving self/other resolves the others.

<snip>
...look directly into the nature of
"what is" to see yourself *as* part/Whole being.

My suggestion on "how to connect" in this regard is to look at any
assumptions that one is other than the Whole.  On what are these
assumptions based?  How did the dividing line arise?  There is nothing
that
needs to be "connected," rather it is the assumptions and perceptual
impressions of separated beingness that need to be questioned.  This
kind
of "deep inquiry" involves all of who one is, as assumptions about
separation have gathered over millenia and deeply affect the
"unconscious"
as well as "conscious" aspects of our being.  My further suggestion is
to
inquire in a way that inquiry=openness=beingness.  Then, there is
nothing
that "you" have to "do" to connect.  With love ---
________________________________________________________________________

ALECS:

...am envious that you
were actually given the mantra!
"Now where are my keys?"  :)
________________________________________________________________________

JERRY:

  Saint Kabir has very beautifully said:-

"Pothi Par Par Jag Mua Pandit Bana na Koye, Adhai Akhar Prem
ka para to Pandit Hoi"

People in the world have died learning books whole of there
life but could notbecome learned. Those who have studied two
and Half word of Love( Prem when written in Hindi is two and
half word) and have become learned.

The study of scripture alone is not enough. that's how
Shankra starts his Bhaj Govindam.

"Oh, Fool ! Oh, ignoramus ! Grammar rules (in fact all your
secular learning) will not come to your rescue when death
knocks to snatch you away. Instead of wasting away the
precious span of your life in a futile
manner, turn to and seek Govinda, who alone can save you
from the jaws of life and death".
________________________________________________________________________

PETROS:

Apropos of nothing, I'm sitting here surfing the net and watching the
Teletubbies with the color on my t.v. turned way up.  It's really
trippy.
________________________________________________________________________

PETROS:

Give me a mirror. Why should I deny my self?

JUDI:

  Exactly

OLD HAG:

Mirror, mirror, on the wall! Who is the fairest of them all? Well, you
are my pretty! heh, heh, heh, heh. Here, want an apple?
________________________________________________________________________

JERRY:


When I vision a way of living, of a culture, a civilization,
I vision very naively, because I vision a community whose
members may practice various religions, but who are capable
of seeing the essential sameness of all religions and who
know that sameness each moment of living whether living
within or without the religious framework. Religion,
therefore, becomes a human practice chosen for any number of
reasons, only one of which might be to enjoy closeness to or
the celebration of that sameness.

I vision a civilization whose people live only to bask in
the sameness and who see to it that others have the freedom
to do the same.

It's a gift that doesn't come so naturally to many. And to
those to whom it is natural, the gift, at one time bare, had
become wrapped in so many layers of fear-paper, that a great
effort is needed to bare it once more and to keep the paper,
via some static electricity of the psyche, from being
attracted back to it.

In the visioned -- not the planned or intended --
civilization, the pulp is not mashed that would give rise to
the fear-paper. There are very few seeds of that
civilization. I see too many leaders. Too many people
pushing their books and protecting their property. For
starters, I would like to see authors in the nondual arena
put their books on the Internet for all to see for free. I
think they will sell a lot more books that way. Those who
refuse to do so, I think, have not seen the largeness of
what they are doing and are robbing Grace.
________________________________________________________________________

BEN+DAN:

>>Hi Dan!
  Thank you for your reply.  I think that the wisest thing for me to do
is sit
  with your response, and let it soak in.  There are a number of mportant
  points that you make here that I have heard before, but are beyond my
current
  realization.  To ask an additional question would be trying to force an
  experiential understanding on my part that clearly isn't ready to
happen yet.
  I am going to let the wiring loosen up a bit.  I appreciate your help!

                  Namaste!
                  Ben

Ben - sometimes "just sitting with things" is very helpful.  I wish you
well.
I agree that "trying to force an experiential understanding" is not
useful,
as doing such ends up constructing a dualism between "where One is" and
"where One wants to be" (or thinks One should be, needs to be, etc.)
Most
helpful here, in my opinion, is simply to notice whenever one constructs
a
duality in the process of "trying to reach an understanding."  With
clarity, one "catches Oneself in the act" of constructing dualistic
oppositions.  Essentially, these are self rejecting self by saying "this
isn't good enough as it is," "I need to be more, be something, have
something, understand something."  Just looking at how this process
works
has proven very useful to me.  It's a powerful process in society, not
just
"in me."  In fact, it's involved in the process by which "society"
constructs "me."  So the idea that "I" am looking at "what is going on
in
me" turns out to be empty (as there is no division between the "I" that
is
looking and "that which is being looked at."  Reminds me of Meister
Eckhardt's statement, "the eye through which I see God is the same eye
through which God sees me."  Really looking into all that is involved
here
takes full awareness, and ends up with all of perceived reality being
called into question. Then, the only one who can "answer" the "question"
is
the One who provided the basis for the question in the first place!
-- with love --  Dan
________________________________________________________________________

MIKE DICKMAN:

<snip>
Belief fascinates me - Can't actually think of a catchier smoke
in the back of the throat...
________________________________________________________________________

Posted by HARSHA:


Professor N. R. Krishnamoorthy Aiyer

I am now ninety-two years old and I first met the Maharshi in the summer
of
1914, when I was just a boy of sixteen. We were then on a pilgrimage to
Tirupati and had halted in Tiruvannamalai, from where my grandmother
hailed.
We were not strangers to this town.

In the pilgrim party there were half a dozen boys, all of whom were
about my
age. We all decided to go up to Virupaksha cave. The Maharshi was then
residing there and was attentive to all the activities of us youngsters.
I
noticed his gaze particularly focused on me.

We were all playing with the conch shell. The sadhus used to blow this
shell
like a horn when they went into town to beg for alms.

One after the other, we attempted to blow the conch shell. No one
prevented
us from doing this, and I noticed an encouraging smile from the
Maharshi.
This was my first visit.

Some eight years later, I came to Tiruvannamalai to visit my sister, who
was
married there. One evening, two companions and I went to visit
Kavyakanta
Ganapati Muni up on the hill where he had his ashram. What can I say
about
that great seer of Mantra Sastra?

I was just then out of college after finishing my masters degree in
physics.
I presented to Kavyakanta the latest views of Einstein, Planck and
others in
regard to the constitution of matter and the universe. He gave a patient
hearing, and then said, "Can you put it in a brief way?" Answering in
the
affirmative, I went on explaining that there is a continuum in which
time
and space are involved, wherein particles change into waves and waves
change
into particles and all can dissolve into a single unitary medium. That
is
the prospect of the future.

He listened patiently to all this and said, "the world picture is in
that
frame," and after a pause he exclaimed, "chitram, chitram !" These words
mean 'picture' - you may call it a movie-picture. Those words sent a
thrill
through my body, through my whole frame. I suddenly felt disembodied. I
was
myself the whole space in which the pictures were placed - this body
being
one of the pictures. This experience lasted for a brief eternity. When I
came round to myself we took leave of Kavyakanta.

The next day we had a meeting with Bhagavan. This was about the time he
arrived at the present site of Sri Ramanasramam (1922). There were no
buildings at all, except for a small shed covering the samadhi (grave)
of
the Mother.

Bhagavan was seated on a bench under the shade of a tree, and with him,
lying on the same bench, was the dog named Rose. Bhagavan was simply
stroking the dog.

I wondered, among us Brahmins the dog was such an animal that it would
defile all purity. A good part of my respect for the Maharshi left me
when I
saw him touching that unclean animal - for all its apparent cleanliness
and
neatness it was unclean from the Brahmin point of view.

I had a question for the Maharshi. At that time I was an agnostic. I
thought
nature could take care of itself, so where is the need for a Creator?
What
is the use of writing all these religious books telling 'cock and bull'
stories, which do not change the situation.

I wanted to put to him straight questions: is there a soul? Is there a
God?
Is there salvation? All these three questions were condensed into one:
Well
sir, you are sitting here like this - I can see your present condition -
but
what will be your future sthiti ? The word sthiti in Sanskrit means
'state'
or 'condition'.

The Maharshi did not answer the question. "Oho," I thought, "you are
taking
shelter under the guise of indifferent silence for not answering an
inconvenient question!" As soon as I thought this the Maharshi replied
and I
felt as if a bomb had exploded under my seat.

"Sthiti, what do you mean by the word sthiti!" he exclaimed.

I was not prepared for that question. "Oho, this man is very dangerous,
very
dangerously alive. I will have to answer with proper care," I thought.

So I said to myself, "If I ask him about the sthiti or 'state' of the
body
it is useless: the body will be burned or buried. What I should ask him
was
about the condition of something within the body. Of course, I can
recognize
a mind inside of me." Then I was about to answer "By sthiti, I mean
mind,"
when it struck me what if he counter-questions with "What is mind?" This
I
am not prepared to answer.

As all this was passing through my mind he was sitting there staring at
me
with a fierce look.

I then questioned within me, "What is mind? Mind is made up of thoughts.
Now, what are thoughts?" I landed in a void. No answer. I then realised
that
I could not present a question about a mind which did not exist!

Up to that point, the mind was the greatest thing that existed for me.
Now I
discovered it did not exist! I was bewildered. I simply sat like a
statue.

Two pairs of eyes were then gripping each other: the eyes of the
Maharshi
and my eyes were locked together in a tight embrace. I lost all sense of
body. Nothing existed except the eyes of the Maharshi.

I don't know how long I remained like that, but when I returned to my
senses, I was terribly afraid of the man. "This is a dangerous man," I
thought. In spite of myself, I prostrated and got away from his company.

- - - (to be continued)
____________________________________

ANDREW:


Harsha, thanks for posting this. I read it some time ago on the maharshi
newsletters, and I wondered then and I still wonder, what is this fear
and sense of danger? How can it be felt? I mean who feels it? If no one
feels it, how can it be felt? But it is felt. Is it fear of the unknown?
But then it disappears and the unknown is still unknown. So that can't
be it. Is it an illusion who fears? But an illusion can't fear.
____________________________________

HARSHA:


Thanks Andrew for raising an important point. The fundamental instinct
for
self-preservation appears to exist at every level of being, no matter
how
subtle. The fear of Complete Annihilation is at the core of the "I"
essence
of the personality. This fear has no antidotes other than knowledge,
understanding, and complete surrender to the Divine which appears as the
Unknown. Total surrender to God is not possible until the soul/ego is
ripe
for it. Hence spiritual practices and inquiry and taking selfless
actions
(Karma yoga) are meant to thin out the karmas and gradually ripen the
soul
so it can recognize its identity with the Essential Principle of
Existence,
which cannot go out of Existence. When the fruit is ripe, it falls off
in
the mere presence of Gravity. But even before that, there is always the
pull. The pull creates fears on many levels. The "I" essence
intermingled
with karmic particles or vibrations is the subtle body or the subtle
personality. Attraction and repulsion to karmic vibrations constitutes
the
changing personality and the changing identification. Many traditions
postulate the existence of Grace operating prior to Realization. Grace
is
Self. It is like Gravity. Always Present.
___________________________________

JERRY:

I recall saying more than once on the Kundalini list, that
no matter how dangerous Kundalini was spoken to be, and
there are dangers and warnings to be heeded, that the danger
of nonduality is far greater. Society can contain the one
who has turned insane or whose genius is finite, but the
nondual person is not touched by structures of society, nor
even by a civilization. Nothing is destroyed yet nothing can
exist in the presence of the nondual one. Is there anything
more dangerous?
________________________________________________________________________

MARTHEART:

In my experience it seems to be my separate self or ego that
fears.  Perhaps it knows it does not in reality exist.  I
mean, not the kind of real fear, such as going near the edge
of a rooftop or reacting to other danger, but of being
embarassed, etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

ANDREW:

There's a fear of annihilation, death, ultimate loss, which
presents a barrier.  It is as real as stepping off a cliff,
a plunging sensation in the pit of the stomach.  I'm
wondering how if the separate self does not in reality exist
it can feel this fear.  I know this is another approach to
the question "Who am I ?", that's where I'm at right now,
finding approaches to the question "Who am I ?" It can't be
dismissed with a nonanswer like its a paradox or its a
mystery, maybe so, but that does not satisfy.


______________________________________________________________________

HANS:

Did you ever try the question "WHERE am I". To me this is a
question that resonates much deeper than "WHO am I". To me
"The Where am I"  leaves me no escape. "I" am unfindable.

The above is just for your guidance, I fully understand that
it works differently for everybody.

______________________________________________________________________

PHIL:

Is the statement that there is "no separate self" known as a
fact or is it just something that is reiterated as a nondual
party line?

I once wrote, under an alias, something to the effect that
thoughts and emotions are natural functions that are no more
"personal" than the weather.  If there is fear, it is rooted
in animal defensiveness.  When some turbulent emotion
arises, it is helpful to use the analogy of a rainstorm.
There is nothing personal or "self" about a rainstorm.

_______________________________________________________________________

JERRY:

It's a gift that doesn't come so naturally to many.  And to
those to whom it is natural, the gift, at one time bare, had
become wrapped in so many layers of fear-paper, that a great
effort is needed to bare it once more and to keep the paper,
via some static electricity of the psyche, from being
attracted back to it.

ANDREW:

The wrapping paper is printed with fascinating horror
stories and lurid pictures, and you can get so wrapped up in
the paper that you forget all about unwrapping the gift.

______________________________________________________________________

JERRY:

Nothing is destroyed yet nothing can exist in the presence
of the nondual one.  Is there anything more dangerous?

DAN:

Yes, indeed.  And everything is destroyed, everything is
called into question in the presence of the nondual One.
Everything is placed at risk, everything is thrown into the
upheaval of rebirth, yet the nondual One remains serene,
empty, tranquil.  "The Garden of Eden is a very dangerous
place," Carlo Suarez.

HARSHA:

The nondual One seems very much like a tax collector.

______________________________________________________________________

HARSHA:

Many traditions postulate the existence of Grace operating
prior to Realization.  Grace is Self.  It is like Gravity.
Always Present.

*********

JUDI:

So funny, I used to think I was somebody and going someplace
else I think??  :-)
What was I thinking anyways??  And don't anyone bother
telling me either.  :-)
_______________________________________________________________________


MARCIA:

Myth of the Black Sheep.

"The tale relates to a shepherd and his flock of sheep.
To the latter the shepherd takes on the aspect of a
beneficent being, indeed of a beneficent god.  He
continually addresses himself to their welfare and he
employs what can seem to them to be only supernatural and
unimaginable means to assure their safety and to rescue any
of their number who may have the misfortune to wander away
and become lost or to fall into some other jeopardy.  He
leads them to shelter against the cold and he provides them
with the food and other requirements necessary for their
existence.  He takes very good care of them, much better
care indeed than they could assure for themselves.  It is
therefore no source of wonder that they should look upon him
as genuinely concerned with their welfare and enter- tain
toward him feelings of grateful awe.

The shepherd himself, however, has purposes in relation to
these sheep of which they are unaware.  These purposes would
much astonish the sheep if the latter were to know of them;
they are con- cerned first with a supply of wool, and later
with a supply of mutton.
In fact the sheep have somewhat seriously mistaken the
shepherd's motives, for his care of them is occasioned
primarily by consider- ations that the wool should be thick
and useful for human (not animal) protection and that the
meat should be well-nourished and tender when it is finally
brought to market.  These values, held by the shepherd and
the real causes of his behavior, relate to matters entirely
beyond either the knowledge or the comprehension of the
ordinary sheep.

The ordinary sheep, as can be seen at a glance, is white.
He and his fellows, as alike as so many peas in a pod, make
up the vast majority of the sheep population.  But very
occasionally at long intervals there appears an unusual sort
of sheep whose pres- ence can also be noted at a glance, for
this is a black sheep.  The black sheep is both more
skeptical and far cleverer than the or- dinary member of the
flock and, while taking care to present an appearance of
conformity in his daily sheeplike behavior, he is all the
time directing his attention toward little anomalies which
seem to contradict the general views held by his
companions.  The annual shearing, for instance, is certainly
done at a time of year when the sheep will be least
discommoded by it; yet it really seems a strange proceeding
and, upon serious reflection, one that can scarcely be
thought of as motivated primarily by a concern for the
sheep's' com- fort.  The black sheep also speculates upon
the problem raised by the unaccounted-for disappearances of
his compatriots just when they have reached their manifest
prime; and he explores various hypotheses in an endeavor to
explain to himself these peculiar happenings.  Many a black
sheep never arrives at any satisfactory conclusions upon
these questions before his own turn at the butcher's comes
around but very, very occasionally some unusually clever
specimen contrives to see what he should not see or to
overhear a conversation at which he is not presumed to be
present.  And thus he learns the secret.

We may imagine his consternations as the truth becomes known
to him.  The situation is not only a shocking surprise, it
is also so contrary to established opinions and convictions
as to overturn them completely.  Every seriously held
life-view concerning sheephood is destroyed at a stroke.
And supposing the sheep to experience some feeling of
solidarity with his paler brothers, we may next ima- gine
his concern to share with them the information he has dis-
covered regarding their desperate circumstances.  A large
propor- tion of the black sheep who have by some chance
reached this posi- tion, do not proceed beyond it, for
hastily to blurt out the dreadful news not only arouses the
disapproving incredulity of the other sheep but is
calculated likewise to bring matters to the attention of the
shepherd.  There is a ready means at hand to quash such sub-
versive activity; it consists in a premature trip to the
slaughter- house, inevitable later in any case for this
remarkable fellow who is both too clever and yet not quite
clever enough.

Still, at very long intervals indeed, there does occur a
black sheep of such outstanding acumen that he avoids this
pitfall, too, and is thrown back upon the most sober
consideration of what to do for the best.  Such a sheep has
lost his peace of mind once and for all; and he soon comes
to realize that in his extremity nothing will suffice except
to add an equal degree of courage to the intelligence which
has brought him to his present pass.  To remain where he is,
is certain death, even (in his own conditions) a sort of
deliberate suicide.  But what then is he to do?  It would be
difficult enough to escape the watchful eye of the shepherd
and , even if such a miracle were accomplished, where could
he find fodder to keep himself alive or shelter from the
winter which he likewise knows will surely come?  All these
necessities have always been provided for him; he lacks any
knowledge himself as to how to go about obtaining them.

Would it perhaps be better to forget the whole thing, to
enjoy a life in many respects obviously suited to sheephood
and to resign him- self to the fate which will overtake him
only a little sooner than properly, in any case?  And so,
finally, we may imagine in what straights our sheep
struggles with these alternatives.

At the end of the fable we are told of the black sheep which
came to a final decision.  Having waited interminably for a
possible op- portunity, that black sheep disappeared one
dark night from the fold and could not thereafter be found.
It had escaped....

The black sheep's secret is this:  that our lives have
nothing to do with our personal aspirations or desires; that
we are born and live because death must follow life; and
that in death we pro- vide a kind of food required in the
economy of the Universe, which nothing else can provide.
The wool and mutton of the Myth are our literal physical
bodies, in which during life certain purely physical
substances are accumulated, quite unconsciously upon our
part, substances that, when automatically released at our
deaths, will furnish ingredients required by the cosmic
machine.

These substances are altogether physical in character but
they belong to the realm of physics rather than to that of
chemistry; their nature is electromagnetic."


```````````````````````````````````````````````````

Who does not identify with the black sheep?
This sheep will not survive if s'he remains a sheep, without
the protection of the shepherd, this sheep's a goner, short
of transformation, the sheep transmuted into another, the
sheep's dead without the herd and the protector.

There is no shepherd (that's my unfounded statement).

--ANDREW

_____________________________________________________________________

JERRY:

And yet I found myself waking this morning knowing that
nothing is right, nothing is true, anything we've said,
known, realized, is part of a cobweb.  That goes for
everything that can be named or unnamed; it goes for the
greatest sameness/stillness known in our most close-to-death
moment.  It goes for everything we all know and we all know
we know together; it goes for our deepest moment of truth;
it goes for Ramana's true knowing; it goes for Christ's
resurrection; it goes for the most silent moment of the
universe; it goes for the absolute ultimate reality too:
that they are cobwebs and I have to shake my head free of
all of it.  None of it, spoken or unspoken, will hold up
half a billion years from now.  And makes me realize I'm
just a creature trying to understand.  I don't trust anyone
who knows, and that includes God.
We think we know that which will not change, but do we?
With the slightest doubt, a trillion universes are created.

_______________________________________________________________________

RAPHAEL:

The Pathway of Nonduality

Chapter 4

Parmenides and His Vision (concluded)

Q.  It seems, however, that Parmenides depicts Being as a
sphere, while Gaudapada speaks of Brahman as infinite,
bodyless and beyond categories that belong to manifestation.

A.  This is right as far as Gaudapada is concerned, but to
understand Parmenides it is necessary to get into the spirit
of his vision rather than dwell upon the face value of his
words.

In ancient Greece the figure of the sphere was considered
the symbol of perfection, of completeness, of unity, etc.;
whereas all that was indefinite, formless, vague, nebulous,
etc.  was considered to be lacking in perfection and devoid
of unity.  Roundness gives us the impression of 'fullness',
of self-sufficiency, of completeness as well as harmony and
beauty, and as completeness it transcends all categories and
all temporal and spatial empirical determinations.  It
stands for the pure metaphysical quality of the self-shining
Being and its ideal circularness can 'extend itself' as far
as the infinite because it represents the emanation of the
Pole-point or of the centre, always identical to itself.

Thus, when one wished, for example, to speak of things in
terms of perfection, unity, fullness, stability, etc., one
referred to that 'yardstick of measurement' represented by
the sphere.  Plato too -- like the Upanishads -- speaks of
Being as a shining Sun.  These are empirical or analogical
images the true value of which must be sought in the
metaphysical dimension.

Parmenides speaks also of 'round truth':

"You must learn to know all things, both the immovable
spirit of the well-rounded truth, and the opinions of
mortals wherein there dwells no legitimate credibility."

Now, were we to interpret literally the expression
'well-rounded truth' we would come up against a logical
absurdity.  But, if we enter into the spirit of Parmenides'
thinking, of his day and of Tradition, then all will appear
to be clear to us.  'Spherical truth' gives us the idea of
perfect truth, of perfect knowledge, of an indubitable truth
of such stability that nobody may shake or destroy, as
against the truth of men which is instead simple opinion and
therefore nebulous, vague, non-definite truth and unstable
knowledge.

Here are a number of karikas by Gaudapada which require no
explanation:

"Now I shall speak of That which has no limit, never born
and which is in constant equilibrium, and hear how it is
impossible for anything to be born, though it may seem to
have been born."

"The creation which -- with the aid of the examples of
earth, gold, sparks, etc.  -- has been explained in various
ways, is simple mentioned to generate the idea (of unity),
but certainly there is no multiplicity."

"The dualists affirm the birth of what is non-born.  But how
can what is non-born and immortal become mortal?"

"The immortal can never become mortal, nor the mortal become
immortal because there can be no change of nature."

"It is on account of maya -- with the exclusion of every
other possibility -- that this Non-born may differentiate.
If differentiation were real, then the immortal would become
mortal."

According to Parmenides, opinion (doxa = representation,
what appears to be true; sensory perception) is an erroneous
vision of man 'in which true certainty does not dwell', and
which makes Being seem to be generated and multiple.

According to Gaudapada it is avidya, which can also be taken
to mean sensory perception (simple projection, opinion,
mental representation), which makes appear things that are
not.

Gaudapada:

"Some researchers hold the birth of a thing already
existing.  Others, instead, hold the birth of what does not
exist."

"A datum which already exists cannot be reborn and a datum
which never existed cannot come into being."

"If a person believes that a positive, immortal entity can
come into existence, how can he hold that the same immortal
and unchangeable entity can yet maintain its immortal
nature?"

"By the word nature is meant what is permanently acquired or
is intrinsic or innate, what is not produced and what is
unchanging in its essential characteristics."

"Cause cannot be born of an effect with no beginning; on the
other hand an effect cannot be born of a cause without
origin, because a thing without cause certainly has no
birth."

"The unreal cannot have the unreal as its cause, nor can the
real be born of the real, nor can the real stem from the
unreal, nor, finally, the non-real from the real."


___________________________________________________
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http://www.nonduality.com/context.htm

We welcome back the Gang of Three: Skye, Marcia and Xan, not
to mention Tim G. Their postings will appear tomorrow.
Annette will do the Highlights for Sunday. Write me if you'd
like to edit the highlights!

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DAN:

I want to look fully, with all of my awareness.
To find any place to rest or answer is only speculation,
belief, and assumption.

JL:

Beautifully put, Dan.  An ideal of perfect pursuit; of
looking without pretense.  I'm there with you in spirit.

-- yet, as we know well, a conundrum arises as one
speculates, believes, or assumes to be looking fully with
all awareness. To desire.  To arrive.  We're ever left with
unfilled desire.  Ever approaching, never arriving.

Perhaps in extraordinary pursuit, we begin to internalize a
reality of "no end;" and in such knowledge we come to know
our work
-as- rest.  Unfulfillment as Answer.  Taken to an extreme,
such becomes the unimaginable immensity all energy, held in
such perfect universal balance that the slightest breath
would alter its dynamic stasis.

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DAN:

To all who ponder (or refuse to ponder) the various forms of
the "Who Am I" question...

The statement:  "This statement is false" is a
self-reflexive assertion.
If the statement is true, it is false; if it is false, it is
true.

The "self" questioning "itself" is a self-reflexive
investigation.
It needs to be pursued fully into every possible nook and
cranny, until the full impossibility of either asserting or
denying a self becomes evident.

ANDREW:

I walk on alone, chewing on something I can't swallow and
can't spit out.

SARLO:

I have an answer to all these questions which serves me
quite well, and never mind the metaphysical who is being
served.  .  .
The answer is, "I don't know."
Among other things, it deals with, for me, the tremendous
difficulty of the rationale underlying these explorations:
"I may not know who i am but i can be sure of one thing,
THAT I AM, so i just have to keep asking who i am (or where
or why or wha for that matter)." The difficulty is that i am
not sure and cannot be sure that i indeed am. My one sure
point of reference is that i do not know.  This "sure point
of reference" may seem pretty insecure but what's wrong with
it?  I am bolstered in this safe port in the ontological
storm by seeing everywhere people claiming to know, their
knowing apparently being very attractive to seekers mired in
the metaphysical swamps, who want some assurance about
something, excuse the mixed metaphors.  Their knowing could
well be the truth, or at least their truth, so great!, but
oftentimes it's not.
Looked at from a different point of view, not knowing can be
quite positive.  It is wonder, awe, mystery.  Not knowing is
no impediment to acting decisively when that is needed.  And
the beauty: not knowing is easy and fun and you can do it in
your spare time at home.

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Phil:  Is the statement that there is "no separate self"
known as a fact or is it just something that is reiterated
as a nondual party line?

Dan:  In attempting to make a categorical statement that
there "is no separate self," one is making a comment that
encompasses all of reality.
One therefore is asserting that one knows all of reality,
all that is possible and impossible, when one makes such a
statement.  How can such a statement be made if there is no
"knower"?  With no knower to make the statement, asserting
there "is no separate self" is of no particular value, for
to whom is the statement being addressed, and to benefit
whom?


Rainbo: Uh, Dan, that's a big jump there *g* ...  just
because I know that I am not separate does not assert that I
know all of reality :-)


Judi: If you *know* there is no separation, then you
automatically know "all" of reality, because it is all the
same stuff.  Big difference between knowing that air exists
and breathing it.


Rainbo: Yes, but I don't *know* all the light of creation, I
know light, but light thins and thicks, being in the cosmic
ocean of bliss and
*knowing* the center of the ocean, or the originiation of
the bliss are different ...  this is what I meant.


Phil: Here is an alternate take on this.  "There is no
separate self" means "A separate self is not appearing."
Or, the object in question cannot be ascertained.  This is
Buddha's teaching I think.  It does not mean a categorical
statement with ontological truth value.  It means THERE (in
the field of awareness) it is not found.  Error 404.

This can be demonstrated quite practically.  Simply remove
the "I"
reference from thought and nothing changes.  "This is
Buddha's teaching I think" might be, "It is thought to be
Buddha's teaching."  Ego is an unnecessary and dysfunctional
multiplication of objects.
On the other hand, ego is an attention-getter.


Dan:  Yes.  I agree that the Buddha did not attempt to make
categorical statements of ontological truth (truth about
"what being is").  To me, that is perhaps the most
intriguing aspect of his teaching and where it differs from
most religious teachings (which rely on assertions about an
ultimate truth of being).  Much of the later Mahayana
Buddhist thought comes close to such ontological assertion
around the concepts of Emptiness and the Void (although
negative terminology is used to minimize the assertion).
This development (toward the appearance of asserting a
"final truth") in Buddhism indicates, to me, that it is
extremely difficult for people to resonate with a teaching
that doesn't centralize the assertion of a Truth.
The concept of nirvana has been taken by some in the
direction of such assertion (as an ultimate state of some
kind) - yet the teaching about nirvana as I understand it
simply expresses the ending of an attempt to grasp an
illusory sense of existence.

The Buddha seemed to want to clear away the kind of thinking
and emotional reaction that distorts awareness.  The
distortion he addressed was the tendency to need categorical
beliefs and assertions to guide responsiveness.  Indeed,
responsiveness becomes artificially limited when we have the
preexisting agenda to either assert or deny in a categorical
way, or when we need to find something which can be asserted
or denied. The Buddha (and Nagarjuna) took this approach to
most questions addressed.The questioning of self, therefore,
is not to deny a self exists, but to come to a Middle Way
that isn't assertion or denial, that doesn't base a self in
existence or as not existing.  This kind of questioning can
even be applied to awareness.  Ultimately, the Middle Way
leads to one's moving in a fluctuating relativity of
experience without needing to assert or deny anything that
"underlies" reality or "moves through" reality in a fixed
way.  As I understand it, it is this release from fixity
that is associated with the Buddhist teachings of "no
permanent self" and "no continuing identity".

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The Pathway of Nonduality

by Raphael

Chapter 5

ADVAITA VEDANTA

Q.  We often hear people speak of Advaita Vedanta as a
religion, as philosophy, and metaphysics.  But what is it
really?


A.  First of all we must underline the fact that certain
questions are asked more in the West than in the East.  In
addition, the misunderstandings met with by many are
worsened by the fact that some words have different meanings
in the West and in the East.


It must also be pointed out that the answers given to the
various questions are only meant as a stimulation towards a
deepening of the knowledge to be acquired through the
reading of specific and suitable texts.


In the West we have a concept of religion, philosophy and
metaphysics that does not correspond to the Eastern meaning
of the same terms.  For us the concept of religion is
derived from the Jewish-Christian-Islamic context and has a
precise meaning connected with the theological constructions
elaborated by those religions.  To speak of Hindu religion
may seem improper because Hinduism, on the whole, and over
the ages, more than an organized, hierarchical and dogmatic
religion in the Western sense, is a 'way of being', of
living, of expressing oneself.  We may speak more
appropriately of 'Hindu civilization', of 'Hindu
consciousness', of 'Hindu attitude'.


Hinduism is based upon the Vedas which, rather than a
theological or dogmatic corpus are a synthesis of
philosophy, metaphysics, mysticism, cosmogony, traditional
magic and other sciences and practices.  The Hinduist would
say that in the Vedas there is all that one needs to know.
The seeds of Upanisadic speculation and of the Sastras are
already present in the Vedas.  The central ideas of Buddhism
and of Jainism are not new.  They, too, are present in the
Vedas.


The Hinduist holds that the Vedas, and therefore the
Vedanta, which are the later Scriptures that crown the
Vedas, are Sanatanadharma, the eternal dharma above and
beyond time.  This dharma, being timeless, has no history
because it has no beginning.  Christianity, Judaism and
Islamism can all be dated, they all have precise beginning
and a founder....Hinduism has no such founder.  The Rishis
themselves, who drew up the Vedas, are only the transmitters
of an eternal Truth which is non-human and beyond history.
Many of the Rishis are not even remembered by name; some of
them have a name that is more mythical than real.  For
example, Vyasa is held to be the compiler of the Vedas, of
many other Vedic writings andof the very same Mahabharata,
but Vyasa more than the name of a person refers to a
'function'.  It is a mythical name and cannot be considered
in the same way as the name Jesus or Moses.


In the West the concept of religion implies a founder (in
space and time) who formulates certain moral-spiritual
principles to be followed by the devotees.  This is not so
with Hinduism.  To this concept of religion perhaps Buddhism
is somewhat closer, but in this case, too, many distinctions
must be made.


Therefore Hinduism is not a religion in the Western sense.
It is also for this reason that it is not easy to accept or
be part of or 'convert' to Hinduism.  A Jew who wishes to
become a Christian has only to be baptized to become
automatically part of the Christian religious community, but
for any person who wishes to become a Hindu it is not a
question of being baptized, also because no such baptism
exists.  Some hold that one must be born a Hindu.  But it is
also true that in the West there are many 'Hindu
consciousnesses' just as in the East many feel being
Christians or Moslems.  The term 'East' may be considered
not in a geographical sense.


We should also note that in the East philosophy and religion
go always together -- the very opposite of modern West.  In
the East the one completes the other.  Gaudapada, for
instance, commented on the Mankukya Upanisad from the
standpoint of the Sruti and of dialectical philosophy.  In
other words, he united Revelation and philosophical
reflection.


With reference to the Advaita Vedanta it is not at all the
case of speaking in terms of religion.  The Advaita Vedanta
-- whose codifier was Samkaracarya -- is obviously linked to
the Vedas of which it has grasped the purely philosophical
and metaphysical factores.  Its roots are, therefore, Vedic.
The trunk was nourished by Gaudapada -- the Teacher of
Samkara's Teacher - and the branched-out tree with plenty of
fruits was developed by Samkara.


The Advait Vedanta may be considered as philosophy and
metaphysics, but these terms must not be taken in their
Western sense.


| | \

___________________________________________________
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http://www.nonduality.com/context.htm

Dear Sweet Purest Nectur,

I know what you mean,
in this falling madness of Love
we spin around into each
in turn
and in heart silence speak-

hello again!

Om as we are!
Eric

______________________________________________________________________


TIM G.:

"I,I" - a freeform poem

I glow from within, lit by my own radiance.
The body, the mind, they are not mine.
Through ignorance I have become associated
with form, substance, dream.  I am not that.
There is nothing to describe me, no words.
No thoughts, no symbols.. I wear no clothing.
Nothing but Eternal peace and bliss, this,
One very moment... there is no other but I.

I, the reality, clothed in disguise...
OM, the bridge across forever.
I am the clear light of emptiness.
OM, the bow of the soul, empty of all
but what is real.
In me there are no distinctions,
no past-present-future, no here or there.
I am everywhere and nowhere, the light
that shines bright across the heart of Eternity.

In me is all that ever was, all that has ever been,
all that ever will be, in one eternal instant devoid of
time.
I cannot be described, nor thought of, nor dreamed of.
I cannot be imagined, nor felt, nor seen, nor heard.

The single timeless Eternal Fact I AM...
Devoid of form, of time, of causation.

Cross the bridge of OM to reach me,
the bridge across the ocean of dream.
Chant me, the no-chant OM, until
the dream ends.  Until the Reality begins.
Satchidananda I am, forever bliss-being-love.
Nowhere and everywhere I am, and you cannot see me.
You can only be me.

___________________________________________________________

ALEKS:

hi tim!

happy to hear that you are in your new space.

here is a house warming present, poem for you. :)
love,
aleks


salapratistha:
the blessing of a house
“I bring this water free from impurity.
I bring this immortal Fire.
With these I set my foot within this dwelling
And take possession of it.”
                             --Atharva Veda III,12
     I know there are those who would give
     their left anything
     for the blessing of such a world. . .
     on a barely traveled alleyway, with a little shade
     and a slight prevailing wind to blow
     the cobwebs from their dreams.

     May we be safe in this sacred space--
     Keep it in good repair and cosmic order. . .
     May there be a compassionate cop on the beat,
     And  little rain. . .

     Inside the outside is a world--
     Our first take on it.
     Those who roam the cracked walks
     and twisted ribbons of any city’s streets know
     the value of a good shelter, refuge or sanctuary.
     Outside, a good sturdy box:  a roof
     and a corrugated view.
     Inside a life can take root:  not merely
     of the earth, but part of it.

     And so I bless my new home--
     its stability.  My good fortune.
     Shelter. Refuge. Sanctuary.
     I bring water and fire and connect--
     my life beginning to intertwine
     with the roots of its ancient own.

     Outside, a good sturdy house: a roof
     and a view.  Outside I
     admire the garden, but love the weeds
     that this old house grew into.

     Bring water and fire. .  .again today
     I blessed this house, and if their had been a rat nearby
     I’d have blessed him too.
         --aleks berlin

_________________________________________________________________

MIRA:

Today,
reading my mail,
feeling so comforted,
reading messages from friends,
who don't know what they are talking about either.

Your messages so dear and appreciated,
between wisdom words,
light dances,
office memo's,
happy days,
nonduality paths, and
EO lists,
I could care less,
whether I am or not am,
or whether anyone knows or not knows.

Thank you all,
for the truth,
that we cannot put into words,
but cannot refrain from being either.

___________________________________________________________________


at the still point, there the dance is,
But neither arrest nor movement.
And do not call it  fixity,
Where past and future are gathered.
Neither movement from
nor towards,
Neither  ascent  nor decline.
Except for the point,
the still point,
There  would  be  no dance,
and  there is only  the
dance.

T.S. Eliot (sent by Harsha)

______________________________________________________________________

MIKI TAKASHI:


Thanks for the warm welcome.
I am sorry but I don't know much about Nonduality or Advaita
in Japan.
Those words are not popular at all here in Japan.
There are many Zen in Japan.  But I know only little.
I think the most authentic academic institution in Japan is
http://www.iijnet.or.jp/iriz/irizhtml/indexj.htm

I feel the name of finger point and way of finger pointing
in Japan are different from "Nonduality" and " Advaita".
In these days I feel the structure of western ego and that
of eastern are different.  Just intuition.  So please do me
a favor no to ask why and how.  :)


love miki takashi

-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-
-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-

MIRA:


Now stating that you know, or that you don't know, may
nevertheless attract all those who want to know, whether you
like it or not.  You are now excused though, to not know,
you may send them home, telling them that they will never
know either, and that they shouldn't even bother to try to,
for they will never succeed anyway.  Not knowing is indeed
easy and fun and is done 24 hours a day, yet not everybody
'knows' that.


-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-
-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-

To live fully and be wise, may mean to be comfortable with
wonder.


--Jerry


XAN:


As for me, I have fallen in love with Not Knowing.


SKYE:


Ah Xan,

Oh great joy to feel you here again.


Yes, yes, energy is purest when it doesn't take on a form.


love, skye


-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-
-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-

DAN:


Clarification of the question "Am I?":
1)  It reverses the usual assumptions involved in the belief
"I am."
2)  It calls all of existence into question.
3)  It calls all knowledge into question.
4)  When knowledge has ceased to be an anchor, and existence
is no longer assumed as a state, it finally points to
investigating the "line" that divides being from non-being.


-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-
-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-

JERRY:


No one ever said anyone knew.  No one ever gave an answer.
It is closer to truth to say 'I don't know' than to say 'do
know'.  Even closer may be to confess 'I neither know nor
not know'; it's a slight nudge from 'not knowing' to that,
but it's like moving a mountain to go to that understanding
from 'I do know'.


So knowledge is not conducive to nondual perception.  What
is needed is 'not knowing', and then the confession,
'neither know nor not know'.  That may be called the First
Silence.
And then the Second Silence is silence.  And out of the
recesses of the Third Silence you hear that utterance,
'Wait, I know!' And those words are delivered like a ladder
upon which one may climb into the Attic of Silence.

-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-
-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-

DAN:


All appearance of or expressed belief in separation is
merely appearance and expressed belief - appearances and
beliefs have their place in the scheme of things, and
reality remains as always.  Realizing this, you are free to
say what you will, assert or deny as you wish.



JUDI:


Yes, and I remember one of the very first things I thought
upon realizing this was oh boy, this is right up my alley,
am I gonna take advantage of this!!
:-)
And I warned everybody.  :-)


GLO:

If you understand, things are just as they are.
If you do not understand, things are just are they are.

Sooooo, besides being free to say anything, what are the
other "advantages" of thinking you understand?

-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-
-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-

JUDI:

Freedom doesn't come cheap you know???  The price is your
life - really.
No joke.  I pay for it with every breath I take.
Aaaaahhhhh...

-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-
-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-

BECKY:

It seems that the popular myth is that once a person is
'enlightened' suffering is ended.
Well, I was wondering if it wasn't really the other way
around.  How about once enlightenment, your suffering
increases because now you can feel the suffering of the
whole world, not just your own little part.  The difference
is once enlightened, you don't have to hold onto it for dear
life.

JAN:

In order to avoid talking about different things, the
meaning of suffering as given by the dictionary:
verb, intransitive
1.  To feel pain or distress; sustain loss, injury, harm, or
punishment.
2.  To tolerate or endure evil, injury, pain, or death.  See
synonyms at BEAR1.
3.  To appear at a disadvantage: "He suffers by comparison
with his greater contemporary" (Albert C.  Baugh).
verb, transitive
4.  To undergo or sustain (something painful, injurious, or
unpleasant): "Ordinary men have always had to suffer the
history their leaders were making" (Herbert J.  Muller).

Regarding 1.  there won't be a change; pain remains pain and
one won't stop crying over lost loved ones, despite knowing
"Being is one".  When pricking an EO with a needle, the EO
won't proclaim the unity of needle, mind and body but
exclaim "ouch!!" The change is in 2., 3.  and 4.; the notion
of enduring, advantage/disadvantage and undergoing will
change.
Knowledge by itself doesn't hurt; the identification
(imagining the victim's experience ) is what hurts; seeing
and hearing will establish the identification.  The source
of identification could be called "I"; without the "I", 2.,
3. and 4.  can no longer be remembered.  Pain just "is" or
"isn't" and when the pain is gone, it doesn't leave an
impression (a memory of having felt pain).

>From an other angle, one IS Sat-Cit-Ananda; this isn't some
concept but an experiential fact.  The transformations,
mentioned in various disciplines (Patanjali, Mahayana
Buddhism, Rosicrucianism), simply denote that "after"
enlightenment, the mortal shell (mind-body) can be
transformed to Sat-Cit-Ananda as well, in which case one is
no longer able to feel any pain.  Of course this is very
rare.

>From yet another angle, one is living up to the recorded
impressions of the mind.  For someone going through a
process of dying and giving up everything, the contrast with
the "first" Sat-Cit-Ananda is the highest conceivable.  Such
a one will like a mad(wo)man "go after it" and nothing could
stop him/her.  It usually means a sequence of samadhis that
will end with the natural samadhi.  In that case, suffering
can be recognized but any identification is impossible as
the "I" is no more.

In the case of Buddha, the last impressions "before" were
strong impressions of suffering, so the recognition brought
about a strong contrast between the bliss of the "real
nature"
and the previous suffering.  As the Buddha left no doubt
about "attaining" nirvana and nirvana without substratum, it
follows that he completed all transformations - no longer
able to feel any pain.

DAVE:

B said :"it seems that the popular myth is that once a
person is 'enlightened' suffering is ended.
Well, I was wondering if it wasn't really the other way
around.  How about once enlightenment, your suffering
increases because now you can feel the suffering of the
whole world, not just your own little part.
The difference is once enlightened, you don't have to hold
onto it .  .  .  "

we need to watch out we can swop ideas till the cows come
home but in doing so we only make ourselves feel better

feeling better is not good enough

enlightened - not enlightened dharama - no dharam suffering
- non suffering

.  .  .  people let it all go.

if we focus on techniques practical stuff that will help us
look we can learn much more.

so now this could be an example:
who knows how to deal with this?
"the 10,000 things return to the one where does the one
return?"

its a kind of trick hands up (honestly now)
those people whose first thought was "I don't know".

I don't know is the starting place and you apply your
techniqies from there.
everything else is candy.

I read most of what is posted most is missing the real "I
don't know"
good new and bad news bad news = unless you find the real "I
don't know", you remain lost the good news = there's stil
time.

find a technique ask for help about the technique don't say,
"it might be this"
or, "they say this"
ask "how do I look?"

not many ask this type of question why?

-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-
-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-

ANDREW:

After a while I stop saying I don't know, it goes without
saying, how many ways can I say the same thing?
(I still say I don't know.)

Look anywhere.  Ask around.
Make up techniques, try them all Get through all those
techniques Don't pay attention to anything I say.
Don't pay attention to anything you say.
Pay attention, you're speaking to me.
Techniques are like sauces or marinades, I still can't
swallow or spit.
Techniques are like sauces or marinades, I still can't
swallow or spit.
(I chew)

One asks, and looks all ways.
What else is there to do?
One stops doing, then one starts again.
The one who starts knows that s'he's not the one who stops,
but s'he is too.


-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-
-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-

==GENE POOLE==:


The question of 'a separate self' arises.  Usually the
discussion dips and loops and comes back to the question.

I have no answers to this one, but a few thoughts.  This is
how it occurs to me.

I am with another person, I am looking and we are talking.
Beneath or above the level of conversation, I am remembering
to observe myself.  I am aware that I am observing myself,
and that I am also observing this other person, who is
observing me (but is he observing himself?).  There is so
much monitoring going on, so many points being viewed and
viewed from.

Suddenly I am aware that the entire process is quite
effortless, and that what is observing, is awareness.  I am
aware that I am aware of the observational powers of
awareness, and it is by awareness that I am aware of this.

For me, in this way, is the question of 'a separate self'
resolved, in the dynamic of relating, rather than in the
abstract of 'offline' considering.
Even now, I find no satisfactory way to express now, what I
'know' in the moment of actual being-with; so my point is
that it is one thing to consider this question of 'a
separate self' as a puzzle, but another to consider it while
actually being-with another.  It is the dynamic
being-experience which is satisfying to me.  In that
recognition, I realize the benevolence of this 'separate
self', that it is aware of itself, that it loves itself.  In
this recognition, any sense of separation seems to
evaporate, leaving only warmth and good feelings.

Perhaps...  this has something to do with the typical Hindu
prescription of a living Guru, as the ultimate and necessary
step of resolution in these matters.  Perhaps it is the
living Guru who can recognize and thus share, the living
'truth' of Being.  Perhaps also, this is how it is resolved
to overcome scriptures, with knowing.

-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-
-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-

SKYE:

Hi all that is :-)

Well I read 'Collision with the Infinite' by Suzanne Segal
in two spaced out days!  My goodness.  Then I gave Shojiro a
quick run down on the story and he said; there was a young
Japanese boy who was known to have experienced a similar
enlightening emptyness(what I call spontaneous combustion)
of the self but died early of unknown causes.  After his
death the autopsy revealed he had died of a 'brain tumor'.
I'll see if I can get more info when Shojiro gets back.

When I commented on cancer way back I had no idea of her
life.

I have now begun Nisagadatta's 'I Am That' (a most
appropriate sequence it seems!) and have now fallen
madly/passionately in love with it.  I have to laugh, here I
am loving to learn, 'Am I?' nothing (thanks Dan) and
everything and nothing and.....but why is there no pain?  I
guess its all still safely tucked into my conceptual self.

I find myself in a quizzicle state often saying strange
things out loud like; 'oh shit!' and 'well I never!' or
laughing out loud when I see my ego trying to have a
tantrum....yawn, yawn ;-).  Very strange, enlightenment
seems to be like meeting yourself on the road and
recognizing it is you.  A meeting of the ridiculous and the
divine, an embracing of the best and worst in myself.  What
is this divine illusion being played on this great clear
empty expanse with all the passion I can muster?  ;-)


-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-
-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-

The Pathway of Nonduality

by Raphael

Chapter 5

ADVAITA VEDANTA (conclusion)


In the West, especially in the modern West, philosophy is
reserved to those who wish to 'demonstrate', through mental
and discoursive dialects, their own vision of the world and
of Being.  In other words, one tries to 'demonstrate' truth
using discoursive reasoning, but we know that mental
discourse has its limits because it can only operate on the
plane of the objective and contingent.  A rational,
empirical 'demonstration' of Being, for example, implies
setting oneself upon the plane of duality which, in turn,
precludes not only the 'demonstration' itself but also the
true knowledge of Being.


One may say that in the West philosophy suffers from the
typically Western consciential attitude of looking at things
from a dualistic, objective standpoint.  It aims at knowing
the external object while oriental thinking aims at knowing
him who wants to know the external object.


Western philosophy is one of simple mental 'demonstration',
Eastern philosophy is one of realization.


Besides, while the Western philosopher has produced a
philosophical system of his own, often in contrast with and
in opposition to the systems of other philosophers, the
Eastern philosopher has not produced a system nor has he
claimed ownership of his enunciations.


The Advaita Vedanta (like all other darsanas) is a darsana
stemming from the Vedas, drawing from the Vedas, which
develops a 'perspective' or 'point of view' that already
existed in germ form in the Vedas.  The word darsana, in
fact, is not indicative of a closed philosophical system of
thought by some solitary thinker-philosopher; its
etymological meaning is 'to look', 'to observe', 'point of
view' concerning the Vedic Scriptures, i.e., Vedas and
Upananishads Sruti).  But even Greek philosophy, in its
precise meaning, was a philosophy which derived its content
from the Mysteries.  The Mysteries are a branch of that
eternal Doctrine which we have called Sanatanadharma.
Orpheus, Pythagoras, Plato, Plotinus -- to name a few -- all
drew from the Mysteries.  And Christianity, while availing
of the Sacred Mysteries (in the Mass, in fact, the statement
'let us celebrate the Sacred Mysteries' is made) has refused
and repudiated them.  Thus, when we speak of philosophy we
refer to that Philosophia Perennis which has no history and
was not formulated by a human mind.


-`-`


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TIM:

There's a great cure when feeling perplexed.  Just sit back,
close your eyes and mentally (or out loud) chant OM until
everything is gone but OM (it shouldn't take long, if you're
paying attention to the sound).

The Buddhist "nam myoho renge kyo" also seems to be
excellent for clearing the mind.  Slow and low seems to be
most effective.


```````````````````````````````````````

Anyone who thinks "I left" has no understanding of the
nondual.  Can I, who am Presence, leave?  Do you not
experience Me in deep sleep?  Am I not (with)you always?


```````````````````````````````````````

There is OM.  OM is "I don't know" with a turbocharger.

```````````````````````````````````````

Ya know, this nonduality stuff does funny things to a
person.  I can't watch a movie anymore with even the
slightest touching scene without a tear running down my
cheek.  If the scene involves love and is very moving, I
find myself completely blinded by tears for minutes
afterward.  Luckily, it doesn't seem to bother me, even in a
crowded theater where people would notice.

Let's have a fight over who is the servant :-)  Wouldn't it
be wonderful...
or maybe we can simply serve each other.


___________________________________________________________________


RAINBO:


For me [nonduality] is to bring life to the office the
office to life and to play at all of it ...  which everyone
loves...
knowing everyone is doing their best with what they have
where they are right at that moment ...  it is easy so that
there is nonduality there ...  when it isn't easy ...
and there are waves in the still pool ...  i come read here
...
and bring the pool back there ...  :-)  so, thank you all
for being here ...  there's a dolphin who taught me how to
do this :-)

_______________________________________________________________

DAN RESPONDS TO ANDREW:

ANDREW: There's a fear of annihilation, death, ultimate
loss, which presents a barrier.  It is as real as stepping
off a cliff, a plunging sensation in the pit of the
stomach.  I'm wondering how if the separate self does not in
reality exist it can feel this fear.


DAN:  The deepest barrier is at the core of the human race's
"mind".  Intellectual answers don't work here, this is how I
hear what you're saying.  This fear I view as an aspect of
the desire for continued existence.

The fear is simply the "recoil" reaction against perceptions
that indicate the inevitability of not being able to
indefinitely maintain and continue "existence".
I agree that looking deeply and clearly into this
desire/fear is very useful.

My perspective here is that the separate self doesn't need
to be real for a collective desire and fear to be generated
and maintained.  If all behave according to a belief that
existence for a separated self is real and possible and that
belief functions as a key to the working of the "relative
mind," then the results of ensuing behavior become the
conditioning that maintains the belief (and the
desire/fear).  In other words, the interaction of perceived
need, belief, behavior, and consequences function as an
ongoing "loop" regardless of the illusory nature of any
truly separate self.

____________________________________________________________________

ANDREW:

'Separate self' is the story of the movement of desire/fear,
the line it draws.  (song it sings) The movement is
intricate, many frequencies harmonic and chaotic, a unique
combination making an individual.  All the pluses and
minuses add up to zero.  10000 --> 1 --> 0.

____________________________________________________________________
ANNETTE:

Becky, there is an experience one has where the "pains of
the world are felt as one's own, yes, this is very valid and
very intense :-)
[...]

JAN:

One could say, identifications won't disappear without
having known their existence so no one can escape from a
period of being strongly reminded of pain; the power of
perception can increase to the extent that past, present and
future will merge.  So as Annette says, it can be very
intense.  You can't run or hide from it.

The major cause of this suffering is not having undergone
pain, but having caused pain to "others"; ignorance of the
fact there are no "others" isn't an excuse.  Not knowing the
laws of nature doesn't prevent these laws from operating..

So jokingly, Buddhism could be called the path to take when
it is "too late" (having caused suffering already and
suffering the consequences) whereas Jainism could be called
the path, intending not to cause suffering at all (Ahimsa).

Purohit Swami comments on Ahimsa:
"All life is sacred, all life is one; no one has a right to
question the sacredness of another, no one has a right to
commit violence against another.  The yogi who wants to find
the unity of life, should not break that unity.  Thought,
word, or deed, unconsciously willed, may create misery.  Men
differ in temperament, character, environment, but they all
stand on the one rock of Self, and when man commits violence
on man, he commits it on himself; he may not know the law,
but the law will claim him, if not here, certainly
hereafter."

____________________________________________________________________

DAN RESPONDS TO GENE:

DAN: Gene, You raise a point that I find intriguing -
meta-awareness.  (This is related to metacognition, the
ability to think about how I think.)  Meta-awareness looks
thusly: Can I be aware of how I question, the nature of
questioning itself?  Can I be aware of the
"questioning-awareness itself"?  If so, what kind of
awareness is *this*?  Calling it meta-awareness hints at a
multidimensional being, unconditioned by time and space.
This meta-awareness also is involved in looking at the
effects and limits of language and thought, as you indicated
later in your message.

GENE: To realize that doors can be opened, is useful; it is
also useful to know that a peek inside can reveal that we
need not pass through those doors.  The ability to open
doors is necessary, passing through is optional.

DAN: Yes, a very useful observation, Gene.  Indeed, if I am
aware from "meta-awareness", then I see the door from the
"other side" and the whole idea of opening it is no longer
appropriate.

GENE:  I am with another person, I am looking and we are
talking.  Beneath or above the level of conversation, I am
remembering to observe myself.  I am aware that I am
observing myself, and that I am also observing this other
person, who is observing me (but is he observing himself?).
There is so much monitoring going on, so many points being
viewed and viewed from.

Suddenly I am aware that the entire process is quite
effortless, and that what is observing, is awareness.  I am
aware that I am aware of the observational powers of
awareness, and it is by awareness that I am aware of this.

For me, in this way, is the question of 'a separate self'
resolved, in the dynamic of relating, rather than in the
abstract of 'offline' considering.
Even now, I find no satisfactory way to express now, what I
'know' in the moment of actual being-with; so my point is
that it is one thing to consider this question of 'a
separate self' as a puzzle, but another to consider it while
actually being-with another.  It is the dynamic
being-experience which is satisfying to me.  In that
recognition, I realize the benevolence of this 'separate
self', that it is aware of itself, that it loves itself.  In
this recognition, any sense of separation seems to
evaporate, leaving only warmth and good feelings.

DAN:  What you are considering here, Gene, I've looked at as
well.  It's natural enough to be aware of oneself with
another, and aware that the other is aware of "this one",
and viewing communication as revealing mutual "other
perceptions." When awareness arises "in the midst of this"
it's quite a feeling.  I do associate awareness as such with
the feeling that one is worthwhile, able to contribute, able
to release unnecessarily limiting or distorting ways of
thinking and reacting.  Awareness as such sometimes "bursts
through" the mutual perception of the "other" and it's quite
remarkable to be talking, dealing with these mutual
perceptions, and being aware of the awareness that is aware
of each and all simultaneously.

GENE: Perhaps...  this has something to do with the typical
Hindu prescription of a living Guru, as the ultimate and
necessary step of resolution in these matters.  Perhaps it
is the living Guru who can recognize and thus share, the
living 'truth' of Being.  Perhaps also, this is how it is
resolved to overcome scriptures, with knowing.

DAN:  We had a long-ago conversation in which you used this
term and I was baffled.  Now, it is more clear to me the
meaning you have for the term "living human Guru."  If I
reframe this concept as "living relational awareness" is
that nearly equivalent?  Then, I see this "living human
Guru"
as "working through" Jesus, Mary Magdelene, me, you, anyone
who is "infiltrated" by the Living One, anyone whose
awareness in relation allows arising of One beyond
relation.  "Where two or more are gathered, I am in the
midst of them."
"The Kingdom of Heaven is in the midst of you."  The One
beyond relation (with no other) lives in relationship *as*
relationship itself.

______________________________________________________________________

TIM RESPONDS TO PHIL:

PHIL: Earthquake.  It's all illusion.  Enjoy the show.
Lessee who gets piqued at that!  ;)

TIM: Anyone with a deep nondual perspective should be able
to respect that statement.  What is death?  Were we ever
born?  Can we be killed?  Are we matter, or are we spirit?
Can we take the "long term" perspective and see that we are
eternal beings, and death is nothing but a minor transition,
if even that?

Just a one hour, very deep meditation on death will show
that these things are true.  Grace Herself supplies the
conviction.

Supposedly, Seattle is due for a huge earthquake "any day
now."  I've heard predictions as high as 8-9 on the richter
scale.  Enough to level the city completely and kill 75% of
her citizens.

It may be good to let this body go, to be free of that
constriction.  Often I feel I've lived too long already.
It's hard to live in physical form.

______________________________________________________________________

XAN:

Funny thing about silence- you just can't get rid of the
stuff.
It's Everywhere !!!!

Also funny is the idea of a Me capable of pretending Silence
has been covered over by the insubstantiality of thoughts.

One good thing about giving up trying to understand the
impossibilities.
I giggle a lot more.
Silently.

___________________________________________________________________

PHIL:

Sometimes there is a definite impression that the world is
just an image of a spinning gyroscope.  It spins and sways
and teeters.  In deep sleep and death it vanishes.
Meanwhile, in the waking state, round and around it seems to
go.  You "leave" and then "return" -- and yet you really do
not move at all.

Today just now watching a movie an insight into phenomenal
nature came into being.  The movie appears to unfold
sequentially, like a passage of time.  And yet it is
simultaneous in fact.  All the elements of the film are
present in the film reel.  A certain Greek philosopher
--Plato I think
-- called time a "moving image of eternity".  That seems to
fit here.  All the elements of "this life" are indeed
present now, like the elements of the film.  There is
apparent coming and going, but really nothing is happening
the way we think it is.

____________________________________________________________________

PETROS QUOTING BYRON KATIE:

"It takes an absolute love of God.  Is it 'I love God,' or
is it 'I love God sometimes when he's giving me the reality
I want?' War is what is.  It's nature.  It's what is
sometimes.  It's not personal.  If someone (God, 'what is')
pulls my baby from me -- if that's what it takes, I'm
there.  Take the baby.  Tear my baby from me.  Throw it in
the fire.  What does it take for me to get this thing?  What
does it take for me to understand that I am a lover of 'What
is, God?' My discomfort *is* my war with God.  It's my war
with reality the way it is, and not the 'loss' of my baby.
You see, there are no choices.  What is, is.  When you know
that, it's over.  And it's beyond full acceptance, it's the
love of itself, the love of God.  There is nothing
terrible.  Shall I say it again?  There is nothing
terrible.  There has never been anything terrible.  There
will never be anything terrible.  But when we get to the
baby thing, we're getting down to our sacred little concepts
now.
.  .  .  Me, me, me, me in the name of the baby.  I'm the
one in hell.  It's all about you're destroying my dream.
That's all.  You take my baby from me, you're messing with
the illusion of I'm the mommy, this is the baby, there's the
daddy, we're going to raise it, happy-ever-after fairy
tale.  But tearing the baby away -- that's the higher.
Because it snatches your story from you and makes it
apparent in your face -- nothing's real short of reality.
The baby's gone and you're left with you and your thinking."

"I want you to have what you want.  Because that's what is.
But if you come to me, and you present yourself in such a
way that is asking, or is interpreted as an asking, then I
am going to take that.  I'm going to get your baby and I'm
going to throw it in the fire, your baby love.  It will give
you, beyond a concept, that which you wanted really.  It
will leave you as That."

"And I'm not speaking of not holding onto your baby with
your arms and your cries.  I'm speaking only of how you hold
onto the baby internally -- how loud is the screaming
there?"

___________________________________________________________________

JUDI:

You know what I find interesting is that there really is no
enlightening anybody else.  People are gonna get it when
they're gonna get it.
And no one knows how or when that is going to occur.  The
spiritual path is each person's individual life itself, like
a fruit on a tree each one ripens and falls.  In other
words, it's a totally private affair.
There is no teaching.  Should come as a shock to some of you
guys who are looking for a teaching, or even worse, those of
you who think you've found one!!!  A sobering affair.

______________________________________________________________________

JERRY:

Sometimes in Nova Scotia it gets so cold you can't slip on
the ice because it doesn't melt from the friction of the
boot.  At least that's how it seems.  Things aren't so rigid
in this email community.  I sense a slipperiness, a lack of
footing, but not without assurance and poise.

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==Gene Poole==

Someone recently posted a request for info on 'panic attacks'.

I myself suffered from panic attacks for several years. My current
understanding is that I was suffering the consequences of _resisting_
the
arising of the 'primordia', or 'original nature'.

In other words, it appears to me that one who is being gifted with the
very
release from suffering and spiritual blindness, which they have been
requesting and longing for and is thus pounding on the door, is
resisting
the very process which is the transformation itself.

My resistance was prolonged and heroic; I developed my rational powers
to a
penultimate degree, to thus dismiss the crazy ideas and visions which
were
bombarding me from every angle. Eventually  however, I outsmarted myself
and lost track of my defensive systems. It was at that point that I was
'had' by the Greatest Show on Earth, replete with every special effect
imaginable, all designed to show me in every possible way, that I did
not
know shit.

I now have a very good, even great, relationship with 'primordia'. I
cannot
say that 'I am It', because I am still cought with my pants down, on
occasion; but, I am allowing my defensive systems to be reduced to the
minimum necessary to preserve my body. Everything is now nourishment for
me.

So, my panic attacks are no longer occuring, and I have been able to
work
well to help others resolve theirs as well. My experience is that when
approached the right way, it all turns into a really really great laugh,
with bouts of uncontrollable laughter and crying. A person has to be
willing, eventually, to experience sheer terror, at the materialization
of
the living unknown. Or so it seems to me.

Yes, certain pharmaceuticals do help, if it is needed to simply turn
down
the intensity, but it must be understood, that what is trying to come
through, is a better, more evolved immunity. This transition should be
allowed to occur. It is similar to seeing an interrupted phase of
growth,
reinitiate, with concurrent pains of movement in formerly numbed parts.
So
I do not agree with a medical approach of constant suppression via drugs
of
any sort, prescription or otherwise, including pot and alcohol. Constant
repression of the experience of the primordia will lead only to greater
force being applied, and the door will eventually break down, letting it
in
anyway.

The comments of cancerous/tumorous manifestations, in my opinion reflect
the ongoing efforts of repression, NOT the mechanics of the emergence of
the nondual. In other words, people who like Susan Segal, who realized
and
then died of disease, realized not as a result of brain disorder, but in
spite of it.

==Gene Poole==

[Maturity: Consider the alternative]

________________________________________________________________________

Greg Goode:

RETREAT REPORT
Francis Lucille, Wakefield, Canada
October 10-17, 1999
==================================
Wakefield is a village about 40 miles north of Ottowa, Canada.  It is
held
in a country lodge (called "The Barn").  This one-week retreat is held
there every October and April since 1996.

Attendees are 45 in number.

PROGRAM
=======
The daily program is as follows:

11am-11:45am....guided meditation
12noon-12:45....body awareness (yoga)
5-7pm...........dialogues
9:30pm-until....more satsang, which can include impromptu
                  entertainment, skits, drumming circles,
                  musical events, comedy, or more
                  dialogues.

FRANCIS
=======
Francis Lucille has been travelling since 1995 or so, after having
taught
in France and spent about 15 years with his teacher, Jean Klein.
Francis'
emphasis is on Consciousness, which he defines as "That which is reading
these words now."  He teaches that lasting happiness cannot be found in
physical or subtle objects, which are temporary and intermittent.
Instead,
happiness is the ground of all being, and when this is realized at every
level, it is Self-Realization.

"Every level" means not just intellectually, but also in the heart and
through the body.  Intellectual understanding is not enough.
Non-doership
is not enough.  The body and the world are to be experienced as
sensations
and feelings arising from Silence (=Happiness or Consciousness or
sweetness) and therefore not different from Silence.

The guided meditations are to allow a chance to experience the mind and
body as feelings and sensations aising in consciousness - instead of as
how
they normally appear, as concretized entities, or as conduits through
which
experiences happen.  Instead, the mind and body themselves are
experienced.

The yoga is physically very easy and can be practiced in a chair.  Based
loosely on Kasmir Shaivism, it is a continuation of the guided
meditations,
and allows the opportunity to continue the experience in the midst of
gentle movement.

The dialogues are ideally to answer questions about these other
processes,
or any other metaphysical questions.

Francis has a very quiet, kind, humble and compassionate manner.  Unlike
many other satsang teachers, he does not encourage bhakti devotion
towards  himself as the object.  It is not about a Francis, but about
people being among loving friendships.  He teaches that the purpose of
life
is to discover our true nature, then to celebrate it.  He talks a lot
about
beauty, music and art, sweetness that is the background from which
objects
arise.  He doesn't draw any distinction between realized or unrealized
people, because freedom os freedom FROM such distinctions.  He also
doesn't
say that you must stop being with a teacher or a spiritual friend once
you
have understood the point of these teachings (he was with Jean Klein for
15
years "after").  He emphasizes being happy, enjoying life.  He treats
everyone with respect, like an adult who has already graduated - not
like a
kid who will never get out of school.  He is also very accessible for
private interviews.

THE ATTENDEES
=============
45 in number.  Average age, 50.  From all parts of the U.S. and Canada,
as
well as the U.K., Holland, Spain, and France.  It is a seasoned bunch of
folks, usually people who have spent 10 or 15 years studying advaita,
Zen,
or Krishnamurti.  Other large contingents are former Osho sannyasins,
members of the School of Practical Philosophy, contemplative
Christianity,
and the Sedona Method.  This particular retreat, there were lots of
people
who arrived with copies of Ramesh Balsekar's CONSCIOUSNESS SPEAKS to
read
during the week.

MISC
====
There are breakfast, lunch and dinner, where the residents prepare and
serve the food.  (I am usually head of the breakfast team.)  There is
lots
of freedom in between the events, and even during - there is no pressure
or
compulsion to do any of the events at all.

In addition to the planned events there are lots of nice opportunities
to
walk in the woods, go canoeing, go for a great latte at the nearby
village
cafe.  On Wednesday we had a classical music evening, where Francis
Lucille
played the flute, joined by with local musicians (who were not attending
the retreat).  One of the attendees is a professional clown and mime
artist, a friend from New York named David Ellzey.  He did several mime
acts, plus some non-dualist comedy as "Swami Hagen Daz" and "Reverend
Billy
Bob."

Another evening we had a drumming circle for about 90 minutes,
accompanied
by people dancing.

I had a very nice time and will go again!

With love,

--Greg
________________________________________________________________________
==Gene Poole==

Thanks for the recent discussions of this topic, one of my very
favorites.
Ancient Sumer is quite familiar to me.

In these discussions, it is pointed out that there are or may have been,
highly evolved overlords in posession of advanced technology, etc, and
that
they gifted or inflicted Urthians with their presence, genes, and etc.

I wish to point out that over and above all such Beings and
considerations
of their natures and doings, that there exists now, as then, the
constant
occurance of the intelligence which all of this actually is.

It is always possible for a part to discover another part, but it is
difficult for a part to discover the whole, if the part does not
understand
that it itself, is part of that whole. Such a perspective, skewed by
assumptions of separation, now operates in us as we assume separation in
time, between now and the 'ancient world'.

In reality, the ancients now walk among us, as aware now as they have
ever
been. They wait for us to see them, and to know as Jerry has said, that
'we
are them'. And I am not speaking poetically here.

Someday, it will be common knowledge that we are embedded in what is a
living whole, as part of that whole, and that further, this great whole
is
alive, and is as aware of us, as we are not aware of it. This awarness
will
someday return to all of humanity, as it has already occured for some of
us.

Yes, the entire environment is alive and aware, and this if seen for a
moment, for a brief glimpse, can be the most uplifting, or the most
terrifying, event in the life of any person.

==Gene Poole==
________________________________________________________________________
Tim Gerchmez:

What a burden this sense of "me" is.  Like the proverbial camel who has
always carried a weight on his back and does not know it, we carry
around
this 500 pound barbell called "me" and "I" and "mine" and do not realize
the monstrous hell of this burden.  What freedom, what bliss, to be rid
of
this!  Cast the sense of "me" away and see what remains.  Let truth in.
There is no self, no "me."  Get rid of this horrible burden once and for
all.

Quit trying to fill the empty space inside, and dive into it.  Lose
yourself in it, and be gone.  Anything that gets rid of the "me" is
good,
anything that encourages it is evil.

Be done with "me."  Do whatever it takes to melt away this delusion.
Only
then can one be who they are.  Be utterly selfless, without any sense of
self whatsoever.  Oh, what freedom, indescribable freedom, love, peace.

Whatever remains when the "me" is gone is "who you are."

Ananda,

Tim
________________________________________________________________________

>>Dan:  Here's a report from the basement.
                           Even down here there's silence.

                  ---

>>Xan: Funny thing about silence-
      you just can't get rid of the stuff.
      It's Everywhere !!!!

Dan:  Xan - hi, nice to hear from you again!!

         The Silence is Everywhere
         Including all we call Sound
         Sound can only "exist"
         because of Silence

>>Xan:  Also funny is the idea of a Me
      capable of pretending Silence
      has been covered over by the
      insubstantiality of thoughts.

Dan:  Any idea of a Me
         Is also included in the Silence
         Where it can only dissolve
         Sooner or later...
         To Silence, it's All the same
________________________________________________________________________

Sarlo:

"I may not know who i am but i can be sure of one thing, THAT I AM, so i
just have to keep asking who i am (or
where or why or wha for that matter)." The difficulty is that i am not
sure and cannot be sure that i indeed am.
My one sure point of reference is that i do not know. This "sure point
of reference" may seem pretty insecure but
what's wrong with it? I am bolstered in this safe port in the
ontological storm by seeing everywhere people
claiming to know, their knowing apparently being very attractive to
seekers mired in the metaphysical swamps,
who want some assurance about something, excuse the mixed metaphors.
Their knowing could well be the
truth, or at least their truth, so great!, but oftentimes it's not.
Looked at from a different point of view, not knowing can be quite
positive. It is wonder, awe, mystery. Not
knowing is no impediment to acting decisively when that is needed. And
the beauty: not knowing is easy and
fun and you can do it in your spare time at home.

Harsha;

Beautiful, Sarlo! Perhaps it is this fog of "unknowing" that one must
intuit clearly and hold onto. It can bring the
existential sorrow and universal tears to some. It can bring one to
his/her knees as the ontological storms
appear to rage on all sides. One has to learn to live with it, I
believe, on some paths at least. Gradually and
slowly and carefully and mindfully one travels this road which leads
nowhere really, because where can any road
go. Just to another destination. And then what? Where does one go then?
But perhaps this metaphysical
loneliness when carried to the extreme allows the surrender to take
place. A weary and a tired traveler is
ultimately left without a choice. Perhaps it is the preface to
recognizing Grace and that Supreme Aloneness that
is Whole and One, and THAT I AM.
________________________________________________________________________

Gloria:
And you don't *think* you understand how it really is.. you DO, you
really,
really do know.
Now will you reveal a few more of those advantages of knowing?

Dan:
Wow, this sounds like the beginning of another EO list.
Advantages of knowing:
1)  When dying, I can die.
2)  When living, I can live.
3)  I don't have to think twice about it (with a nod to Bob Dylan).
4)  I can recognize myself for who I am.
5)  I can recognize you for who you are.
6)  I don't have to worry about having an advantage.
________________________________________________________________________

Judi:
You are the path. Drop the path, see it for what it is, for
what you are doing - misery, disguised as some purpose, as some
*somebody*, seeking. Seeking for what, you're not even sure!
Without all that, there is only here, which is
nothing more than consciousness. That's it. Quite simple.
There's nothing more to it.

Dan:
Misery disguised as a purpose.  Seeking to perpetuate itself, that's its
purpose.

Judi:
Yes, like Da has said, it is like discovering that you have been
pinching yourself.
There is nothing more then, you just stop. Identity crumbles right in
front of
your very eyes!!  Implosion. The only way for someone to understand it
is to go thru it themselves. And for that to happen I think a person has
to want the truth at any expense. Overwhelming desire for the truth, no
matter
what the outcome. Put their intelligence to work.

________________________________________________________________________



Becky:

Lately there has been tremendous emotion, mostly anger, confusion and
fear. As I watch it all, the urge to do something to
change it all has lessened a great deal. I am able to leave it alone,
let all the 'voices' that have something to say, have their say. I
was just wondering about the word 'suffering'. I really do think that
people can easily think that if they 'get enlightened' they
won't feel bad anymore. Maybe so for the rare individual, Jan, as you
mentioned.

I'm not saying I am enlightened either. I care less and less about that.

I notice that this energy of emotion of thought goes on in my body. The
less I believe it to be the ruler of my life the closer I am
to my children my husband the friend at work the stranger on the
sidewalk. The less I have to run away from all of life the pain
the tears too.

So I was just wondering about suffering. And I think about Mother
Theresa. Didn't she really live the suffering of others? Didn't
she get down on her hands and knees wash the bodies of the wretched love
them care for them?

And Jesus Christ? Didn't he take on the suffering of all of us just
because he COULD? Is that what the "EO" is? One who
CAN and WILL or HAS TO or HAS NO CHOICE ANYMORE to take the suffering of
us all...just because...that's the way
it is.

I am not so much interested in east or west . Just in living. If I can't
be with the one in pain and fear...if I can't be willing to hold
the hand and go into darkness with my friend and my enemy, I am not
alive.

And a quick note regarding my post on "STUCK". Please read carefully.
"Stuck: not not active". I suppose the word 'stuck' in
and of itself connotes negative. Not so this time. As I 'spoke' those
words, you could not see the softness in my eyes, the gentle
smile, the deep breath, you could not hear me say with wonder "stuck.
can't move." Oh email. Can we really listen to each
other through the electronic or is it all dependent on the precision of
language? no inflection, no gaze, no glance, no sway in the
neck or slump in the shoulder, no breath saying I am seeing, I am
seeing.
________________________________________________________________________


Francis Lucille by way of Greg Goode:

"Every level" means not just intellectually, but also in the
heart and through the body.  Intellectual understanding is
not enough.  Non-doership is not enough.  The body and
the world are to be experienced as sensations and feelings
arising from Silence (=Happiness or Consciousness or
sweetness) and therefore not different from Silence.

xanma:

So glad to hear this understanding!

This is why I think of what we are in as Awakening
and Transformation.  It's one thing to wake up and
recognize myself in/as vast silence and another for
all the bits and pieces of constructed identity mind
to come into inclusion, transforming little by little.

love
xan
________________________________________________________________________

xanma:


Here's a sweet bedtime story for you all.

love
xan


3/7/99
Beloved Gangaji,

I had to tell you about the trip to Florence Federal
Penetentiary that Paul  and I made last Friday.

Twelve prisoners were there for satsang. They were
so excited to start talking about their reports and
experiences that we didn't even watch any of the
video tape, like we usually do. We just got right down
to trying to talk about that which cannot be described.

Towards the end of our time, Dan, who's been coming
to satsang for two or more years and also spent lots
of time in satsang with John Sherman before he left
(prison), asked a question. He wanted to know if his
constant note taking was really a hindrance to seeing
the Truth. (At one satsang while John Sherman was
still here, John grabbed his notebook and threw it to
the ground, to emphasize the point that notes are not necessary.)  I
told him
that there was nothing hindering
him from seeing the Truth, nothing. I said all you have
to do is just Stop..... Stop your strategies..... Stop
looking to your mind..... just Stop..... When I said that,
the whole room became even more silent.

I was just looking around the room at the light coming
from peoples' faces and Paul noticed that Dan's face
was awestruck.  He asked Dan what he was experiencing.
  Dan said, " Nothing, just Nothing". Paul said, " Great, now
close your eyes and tell me what your experiencing".  Dan
closed his eyes and said, "I'm still not experiencing anything".
Paul then asked him if there was any beginning or ending
to this "nothing" and if there was ever a time when this
"nothing" wasn't with him.  Dan said "no.....of course not".
Then Paul said, "This nothingness that you are experiencing
is you, your own Self, welcome Home, Dan".  Dan then
opened his eyes and said, "It's so simple..... I can't believe
it's that easy."  He laughed and laughed and then just sat
there the rest of satsang with a big, big smile on his face.
Both Paul and I couldn't believe how much his face had
changed in those few minutes, those minutes out of time.
What a Blessed, Blessed lifetime to be a witness to such
a miracle.
________________________________________________________________________


Greg Goode:

This came from a friend who's a member of a Christian list--

--Greg
=================================
Our Thinking vs. God's Promises
=================================

"It's impossible."
All things are possible. (Lk. 18:27)

"I'm too tired."
I will give you rest. (Mt. 11:28-30)

"Nobody really loves me."
I love you. (Jn 3:16)

"I can't go on."
My grace is sufficient. (II Cor. 12:19)

"I can't figure things out."
I will direct your steps. (Prov. 20:24)

"I can't do it."
You can do all things through Me. (Phil 4:13)

"I'm not able."
I am able. (II Cor. 9:8)

"It's not worth it."
It will be worth it. (Rom. 8:28)

"I can't forgive myself."
I forgive you. (I Jn. 1:9 & Rom. 8:1)

"I can't manage."
I will supply all your need. (Phil. 4:19)

"I'm afraid."
I have not given you a spirit of fear. (II Tim. 1:7)

"I'm always worried and frustrated."
Cast all your cares on Me. (I Pet. 5:7)

"I don't have enough faith."
I've given everyone a measure of faith. (Rom. 12:8)

"I'm not smart enough."
I give you wisdom. (I Cor. 1:30)

"I feel all alone."
I will never leave you or forsake you. (Heb. 13:5)

========================================================================

MIRROR:

Just found this page on the web.
Cartoon postcards about enlightenment.
I liked them, thought they were funny.
Thought you may like them too.

<a href="http://www.neti-neti.org/CartoonPost1.htm">
___________________________________________________________________


I've updated the Satsang with Everyone web page, and added
some other touches to the website.  Please go to the
following link for more details.  Thank you.

<a href="http://www.nonduality.com/new.htm">

Jerry
______________________________________________________________________

MARTHEART:

There is no enlighening anyone else!  Really, everyone
understands that. Yet, there are some things that a truly
enlightened person says that are like seeds (to use a common
metaphor) that fall and may take root.  And we understand
that too, which is why read and listen to those we sense to
be sages.  And why do we talk to each other, I wonder.
Perhaps it is because we sense we are all One and come to
know the One through each other.
___________________________________________________________________

SKYE:

I'm going to post some information soon that is helping me
to look further into why I identity with anything at all.
It is my only dilemma about nonduality.  Secretly I cherish
the creativity of ideas and have no plans to go into a
sterile singularity for many dimensions yet.  I am merely
learning here that they are made of nothing like me, so not
to cling to them, that ideas and beliefs are not cast in
stone.

_____________________________________________________________________

PETROS:

It is by seeing the reflexion of ourselves in others, and
their responses, that we learn about parts of ourselves we
didn't know existed.  I got a little of everything in me,
and there's a little of me in everything.

______________________________________________________________________

JAN:

Even before Zecharia Sitchen wrote his books, Jan van
Reykenborh, a Dutch Rosicrucian realizer and author, wrote
something about the fact that mankind was instructed in the
art of Self-realization by beings from other, highly
advanced, civilizations.  According to him, this was the
onset of the "golden age" of humanity; from animal
consciousness (the Gilgamesh epic mentions the
"domestication" of Enkidu) to full realization (snatching
the plant of immortality away from the snake in the sea).
The sign "mission completed" is given with the full
realization by humans, so that in this respect mankind
became independent (the advent of human teachers).

However, on this planet something went wrong and a decline
set in.  From a certain moment, important documents were
purposely burnt (like Alexandria's library) to prevent
spreading of the truth.  For "visitors from outer space",
other indicators are the Dogon with their knowledge of the
Sirius system, ooparts (out of place artifacts like pieces
of "impossible" alloys found in ancient layers of soil)
stuffed away in museum's cellars according to the dictum
"what doesn't fit in with theory shouldn't be showed",
glazed sands that can only be caused by a nuclear blast.  So
it is all tied up with nonduality; if everything would have
developed according to "plan", nonduality would have been
the norm instead of the exception.


------------------------------------------------------------

JERRY:

I can believe this.  Knowing that my own experience with
'visitation' of uncommon beings is fairly common, I can
accept all kinds of visitations.  I have a hard time
imagining these beings actually climbing into space ships,
turning a key and flying out here.  (And you know,
complaining about the food, their gall bladders, and all
that.) Rather I think they move through psychic dimensions
and do interface with the physical world.  They are
dimensions of us.  'They' are us.


-----------------------------------------------

ERIC:

And This,

is the really spooky part.  Just little tiny human
organisims, speculating upon their ancient roots, forgeting
for a time, that we are the ever present Gods' Eye.

Nibirian, pliedian, sirian, orionian, and All steming from
little Sidhartha's (that would be 'Our')
belly's dreams.

"Rather I think they 'are' the psychic dimensions as We
interface 'through' this physical world.  ...  now I
understand why I've never seen Big Space Brothers, excepting
of course, in Our little war of the gods, here on NDS.

Who was it recently that 'Proved' we were not the center of
gravity?  (and Universes)

Bring them onto Me.

Sunday Happy Here...

Shiva :-)

______________________________________________________________________

RAINBO AND JAN:


RAINBO: A friend of mine, a Ph.D.  geologist, Chris Lorenz,
(nephew of Konrad Lorenz of the Nobel for study of animal
behavior)
postulated that there had been either a huge meteor or
something like a Nibiru which cased the Earth to wobble on
its axis, causing the Nile to shift direction.  Therefore,
what was once paradise became a desert.  He had done quite a
bit of work in Africa, including opening the iron mines in
the Sudan, and had studied the region intensley.  The theory
sounded quite plausible to me.  (He's dead now.)  Sound
plausible or is there a hole in the logic I'm unaware of?

JAN: I would say it is insufficient.  Jan van Reykenborgh
stated mankind was visited several times and if one thing is
certain, it is the existence of knowledge concerning K.
world wide.  But also he pointed out that yoga systems like
karma, bhakti, raja , jnana, once were integrated and that
knowledge was complete.
As such a complete system is likely to give a full treatise
on matters like siddhis as well, it is understandable that
knowledge was destroyed for two reasons: preventing both
abuse and being used.  Ransacking the cellars in the Vatican
could be interesting...

RAINBO: The Bible's real beginning is the word "Elohim"
which can be translated in a myriad of ways but one is
"There were Light Beings."  Which I agree there is alot of
support for...
but I think theories then extracted from this get very
nebulous and cannot be well supported.

JAN: With Light Beings could be meant astral beings as well
as fully realized ones; it leaves a lot of room for
interpretation.

RAINBO: The last part of the statement "plans gone awry"
sounds implausible to me, we have freedom to choose and the
Creator of what we know I don't think goes "oopz,"  such
that the premise that nonduality now being the norm is
wishful thinking?

JAN: One could say self-consciousness is a two sided sword;
it can cut ignorance about "the substratum of everything" or
it can cut the roots with nature, remaining in ignorance.
Instead of a conscious choice, it is more like a gene is
turned on and it reminds of the myths regarding stomach
ulcers; it took a long time to find out a bacterium is
causing them instead of diet :) It is rather safe to say
that unless a self-conscious species is well known with
"unconditional happiness", it won't survive; 1/3 of all
species has already been successfully exterminated and a
negative influence of human actions on the climate will
probably be denied until it is too late for corrective
action.

The existence of something like a nonduality gene that can
be turned "on" is far more likely than the necessity for
another
1,000 lifetimes or so to gain experience before insight will
dawn :) It would still mean nirvana could "take" more than
one lifetime.  Apart from that, there has been a time when
Buddhism was flourishing and quite a number of householders
"attained"
nirvana with substratum remaining.  So nonduality has been
the norm already :)

___________________________________________________________________


JUDI:

You know what I find interesting is that there really is no
enlightening anybody else.  People are gonna get it when
they're gonna get it.
And no one knows how or when that is going to occur.  The
spiritual path is each person's individual life itself, like
a fruit on a tree each one ripens and falls.  In other
words, it's a totally private affair.
There is no teaching.  Should come as a shock to some of you
guys who are looking for a teaching, or even worse, those of
you who think you've found one!!!  A sobering affair.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

ANDREW:

Not too sober I hope.

A loaf of bread a jug of wine and thou.

"Myself when young did eagerly frequent Doctor and Saint,
and heard great argument About it and about: but evermore
Came out by the same Door wherein I went."

--Omar Khayam

--------------------------------------------------------

XAN:

I find it interesting that the folks I know of for whom "it"
happened without a teacher insist a teacher is not only
unnecessary but a trap.  Those I know of for whom it happens
with a teacher insist that a true teacher is essential and
thinking one can do without one is a trap.

It is always amazing to hear a "that's not possible"
about something which is going on personally and profoundly
in my life.

Where I agree with you whole heartedly is that each
individual's life is the path - as unique as each of us
illusory, only apparently existent folks are.  For some of
us that includes dancing our life paths with exquisitely
pure beings in and out of the body (me too, Jerry) and for
some of us it doesn't.

If the point is that we see through our delusions and
rediscover the simple empty fullness of ourselves, what
would be the purpose of saying how it can or cannot happen?
My experience is that "it" is a gradual and continuous
happening.  At some points there has been a "teaching" that
blew away a veil in my mind revealing the vastness.  At
others an indescribably intimate communion with a master has
undone me.
At most moments I have no idea - just as you said.

___________________________________________________________________

HARSHA:

Advaita is one of the schools of Vedanta.  As far as
"Advaita"
being considered the "highest" and all that, well, what can
anyone say really.  As someone born in India in a Hindu
family, I can tell you that such things as, considering a
school of thought to be the "highest" or the "lowest",
really depends on the one doing the considering!  :-).



___________________________________________________
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http://www.nonduality.com/context.htm

Larry:

Hi. I'm new to the web, new to lists, and generally don't know what I'm
doing. So I thought I would ask a question and see what happens.  Is
realization an experience, an understanding, an obsession, a
modification to the mental hardware or what?

Jerry:

It's a row of Humpty Dumpty's on a wall.

Tim:

Realization is the falling away of ignorance as to who you are.  That
ignorance is mostly a matter of identification with and clinging to the
unreal.  When the unreal is removed, what else could remain but the
real?
That is realization.

xan:

Realization could be any of those things on your list
depending on the person and on the moment.

There is however a *Real* to recognize as your own self
beyond memory, identity, concept and process and right
here, now.

andrew:

I generally don't know what I'm doing too :-) Hey maybe
realization is generally not knowing what you're doing! There are a lot
of ways of approaching a definition of realization, one that occurs to
me right now; Realisation is the understanding that there is no
_________ . You can fill in the blank with many different words, for
example; self, enlightenment, continuity, mind, hope, fear.


Dan:
Not a modification, only reality itself is realization.
People try to find words to talk about it and start sounding
obsessed.  Understanding it involves letting go of assumptions,
being able to let go of trying to get somewhere other than
where One is.  Understanding is thus often discussed as "unknowing."
________________________________________________________________________

Petros: movie review, The Fight Club

This is another one of those weird reality-twisting movies that does
have
something to say about getting to a deeper experience of life through
trauma
and danger. There are some strong mystical undertones here for anyone
who
pays attention. (There is a *very* esoteric plot twist towards the end
of
the film which is quite startling, but I won't give it away here!)

The movie is basically about an (unnamed) geeky, nine-to-five kind of
guy
(Edward Norton) who is beginning to feel the meaninglessness of his
mundane
existence until he "accidentally" runs into a psychotic, socially
marginalized guy named Tyler (Brad Pitt.) Tyler is really some sort of
crazy-wise guru or trickster who intends to awaken people by destroying
their mundane lives.  He does this quite successfully in the film
through
the creation of a "Fight Club" and later a "Project Mayhem."

There's one very interesting scene where Tyler and Norton's character
are
sitting at the kitchen table and Tyler grabs Norton's hand and pours lye
over it, causing the flesh to sear and burn. Norton's character tries
frantically to numb the pain with new-age visualization techniques while
Tyler slaps him repeatedly, holds him tighter and calls him to
experience
the pain in the present moment instead of trying to escape from it.
"When
you lose everything, you learn that you can do everything" is Tyler's
message to the guy.

There's another cool scene where Tyler tries to teach his reluctant
student
about trusting the will of the universe (surrender) by stealing a
limosine
and going the wrong way down the street towards oncoming traffic.
Norton's
character tries to grab the steering wheel a few times while Tyler
insists
on asking him -- "If you died right now, would you have any regrets?"
and
demanding an answer. The student finally surrenders and admits that his
life
has been a waste up until now. He relaxes, while Tyler floors the
accelerator and keeps his hands off the wheel while the car veers to the
side of the road, smashes into another car and goes rolling off the
embankment sending the occupants sprawling -- severely banged up but
much
more enlightened.

For some reason the film also reminds me of "The Matrix" or "Jacob's
Ladder." There's a lot of what could only be called "psychological
special
effects," strange manipulations of the film designed to create a
reality-warping sensation. Some of these tweaks last only a single frame
and
you might easily mistake them for problems with the projector but they
are
not. The funky psychological twist near the end of the film practically
reverses the movie's whole meaning and I think it would make a second
viewing very rewarding. I'll find out!
________________________________________________________________________

Jerry posted:

The Pathway of Nonduality

by Raphael

Chapter 6

Metaphysical Realization (continued)

Q. So there is freedom of the ego and freedom from the ego,
is there not?

A. Yes, the ego-snake, in order to be able to gratify all
sorts of insatiable desires , needs to be without
impediments or to feel free to actuate all it wishes. And
this is impossible due to the very nature of existence; but
even if we conceded to the ego any kind of freedom, it would
not be happy or fulfilled. Why? Because fulfillment is not
in the nature of the ego, as this is only a false product or
a false representation. What does not exist potentially
cannot actuate or realize itself. Although the moon may wish
to appropriate light from outside of itself, it will never
become a sun. The human physical body, though it may live
for any incredible length of time, will never become
immortal because one cannot 'become' but 'is' immortal; and
if one 'is', one does not seek immortality.

The empirical ego, because 'it is not', has to find its
fulfillment, its raison d'etre and its realization 'outside
itself'; and indeed it is obliged to, it needs to. This
means that at best it may find some kind of gratification,
but a gratification that comes from other than itself cannot
be permanent bliss-fulfillment. If one is dependent and
under the sway of the law of necessity one cannot be in
harmony, pacified, blissful and fulfilled. If the empirical
ego is searching, desiring and longing for, it means that it
'is not' and every one of its realizations is a false
realization, a false achievement.

Q. Therefore metaphysical realization is needed. What does
this concept mean?

A. We have already spoken about realization and now we shall
apply ourselves to understand the term metaphysics.

Originally the term metaphysics meant a series of texts
which, on the basis of the order given to the Work of
Aristotle, came after the texts called 'Physics'. The
subject treated by Aristotle in that Series of writings was
called Philosophia Prima.

In time the term took on the meaning of 'beyond' matters
belonging to the physical sphere, to become the 'science of
the real in itself, seen as beyond immediate tangible
appearance'.

>From this point of view metaphysics has a position of
superiority compared with the other fields of knowledge.
Above all the various sciences of the finite, which deal
with the partial, phenomenal and incomplete relations of
being, there is the science of Reality in itself.

Metaphysics is the science of aseity (the property of a
being which has in itself the reason and the end of its own
existence), while physics is the science of abaliety (the
property of a being which finds the reason of its existence
in other than itself).

We may also add that physics deals with the
relative-contingent, which depends on other than itself,
while metaphysics deals with what is or the Absolute and
this rests on itself, with itself and for itself.

If we understand the term metaphysics then metaphysical
realization means the achievement of the Absolute or of
aseity.

Q. Can we go deeper into the concept of the Absolute?

A. According to the philosopher G. Zamboni, the term
Absolute means: "Etymologically that which is free from
relations, or which exists and is what it is, without any
need to be in relation with anything else, or what is fully
sufficient, fully independent to exist or to be what it
is.... With the concept of being or entity or reality the
idea of totality is formed: 'all that exists', 'all
Reality', 'the whole of Reality', outside of which there is
nothing. The 'whole of Reality' cannot depend on something
else outside of itself, because outside of it there is a
mere nothing; thus the totality of what exists has in itself
full sufficiency to exist and full independence. Either the
'totality of Reality' is itself the Absolute and the
Independent or else It contains them. In any case the
Absolute exists; one cannot doubt it; if anything, the
existence of the insufficient and the dependent and its
relation with the Absolute is less clear. But certainly, if
there is something that exists, the Absolute exists."

Metaphysical realization therefore aims at the actuation of
what is 'free from relations', of what has 'no need to be in
relation with anything else', because it is aseity. Let us
see what Gaudapada says in his karikas to the Mandukya
Upanisad (IV, 2 and III, 39):

"I bow to this yoga -- taught by the Scriptures -- well
known as asparsa, free from relations, beneficial, generator
of beatitude for all beings, free from oppositions and
contradicions...."

"This yoga which is called asparsa (without contact or
relation) is difficult to understand for many yogins because
they, feeling fear where there is none, are afraid of it."
________________________________________________________________________

Tim:

"Happiness" is the opposite of "misery" (as though they were opposite
poles
of the same magnet) and is part of duality (maya/ignorance), the veil
that
obscures reality.  Best to be free of both and simply *be* the
unchanging
bliss of homogeneity.  Worldly misery goes along with worldly happiness
and
is part of the same wheel that goes round and round and round and round
and
round... Thanks, but that merry-go-round is getting old.
________________________________________________________________________


Judi:

<snip> Identity crumbles right in
front of your very eyes!!  Implosion. The only way for someone to
understand it
is to go thru it themselves. And for that to happen I think a person has
to want the truth at any expense. Overwhelming desire for the truth, no
matter what the outcome. Put their intelligence to work.

Dan:

The desire for the truth is correlated with the extent the truth
has been "hidden" or "distorted."  There is no one doing this
"distorting"
but myself.  The more I desire the truth, the more I see it is
always only me who is obscuring it.  It turns out that in desiring
truth, I am desiring to be who I am,
and what is "obscuring" this is whatever extent I can
convince myself that I am "other" than who I am.  All these "me's"  --
so many "others" seeking Me, while convincing themselves they are not
who I am, not willing to live Truth and Truly, pretending they want Me.
________________________________________________________________________

xan:

My own experience is that there are different levels of
enlightenment.  The further I go in self inquiry and Self
discovery the more subtle experiences become.  The
understandings and
definitions I had previously tend
to fade in the face of what is simple Here.

I do know this about the process of enlightenment we
are in:  It destroys definitions and expectations - all of
them but not all at once.
________________________________________________________________________


Dan:  Splitting hairs can be fun --
       as the split one leads to another,
       it can never be undone...
       When a billion hairs are all in one
       With one in all we'll all have fun!!
________________________________________________________________________

_______________________________________________________________________
xan:

Infinite resting, infinite allowing, infinite heart
Unending gratitude
_______________________________________________________________________

Aleks:


words without words with which
to express themselves--words cold
steel electric words--day to day
words--words for night & dawn & noon
& moon words--words which wrap
themselves around a thought:
a tree
word, trees that are poems
that write themselves from the roots
up. . .branches down. . .words to the sky-kind
of words. . .stretching words. . .reaching
words.  words that are kites
             free-falling jerked
             away string bound lazy
             lifted retrieved
             as day sleeps kind of string
             wound words or trying to sleep kind
             of word-ful shaking like a leaf or
             a kite or a tree kind of words.
specialty words--words for sale--free words--others'
words--police words--nurse words--tax man words--worn
weary words.
         words that slice--weapon words--no shield
         to ward off words words--words that shroud
         vulnerable souls in creeping wetness under
         cold steel trees of you deserve what you get words--
         words--broken kite words--fog words--no shelter
         words--words one can't use in a song-- a song without
         words words.
words say it's over--words say it has just begun--words say
i love you and glare stare hatred from i's at once.  words call
words.
             words imitate words
             words name words
             words name you
             words can name you lunatic &
you know why & you don't know why but you know that
full moon lunacy is word-less-word-ful-love-word is
beam bright primative futureless word-warm word is
         warm steel word
         hot hot word
         new not-word
warm head spark words--given words--understood & earned
by life pain words--words to say halt with words to surrender by. . .
words to process--words to pen
         you are word  i am word  iam
a tree   i am a kite    i am a lunatic    i am a word
     lazy lited [flying word]
     cold steel [weapon word]
     warm head spark [crazy words]
     soft spun touching [gentle words]
word wiz--word smith--word monger--word warrior-
     words float--words sink like lead-- words:
it is only in your head.  words.
     human words pronounce you christened    married    weary dead.

lunacy.  the moon never spoke such word.  moon shone
fall crisp leaf coming  snow peace & spit fire all in one
word.
moon

  silent.
[        ]



love and blessings
for words and back words  :)
aleks :-X!
_______________________________________________________________________

Becky:

... Email is a different form than talking, obviously, and
still quite different from communicating through movement or sound. It's
not
any better or worse than any other. I think it is unique and myself
being
somewhat new to lists in
general, am still investigating how it is I respond and communicate
here.

If you suppose that we are dependent on intellect and senses for
communication, then, could you also suppose that as we give up those
dependences, we are replacing them with another (email)? What is the
purpose
of communication and why are we doing it? That seems to be a question
each
must ask of oneself prior to clicking the 'send' button. There is an
obvious
interest and/or need here, each for their own reasons.

xan:

...Having been away from this forum for awhile and
considering the return to it, I looked at this "why?" question too.
Here's
what I found:

There is an opportunity here for vigilence to Wholeness in the midst of
my
various responses to people and what they say.

In wholeness I am discovering an increasing ability to enjoy and to
appreciate, independent of situation.

I don't talk to people other than my sons that much, and it's fun to
hassle
it out about 'what is enlightenment?' etc., not because it means
anything,
but more because it doesn't.

As for what forms communication may take when we rely less on intellect
and
senses and words?  Give it a shot.  Try letting those things stop for
just a
moment.   As my teacher Papaji said,  "We'll just see."
_______________________________________________________________________


Marcia:

... I have thought that everything including
enlightenment is the result of three forces. First force
is definition, second force experience, third force
realization and the result is enlightenment. First
there is "new" thinking, second experience, third
understanding or realization and the product is
enlightenment. Where I get confused is in not
separating the first force from the product i.e.
I come across "new" thinking and I think I am already
enlightened without have gone through any process.
You can "define" the three forces any way that works
for you. I was just trying to make them fit what Xan
was saying. The idea is to take it as a hypothesis and see
if it can be verified.

xan:

I can see this, Marcia.  First one receives an idea of a possibility
previously unknown.  That opening may lead to a direct, non-conceptual
recognition of it's reality.  As that becomes more consistent it is
accepted
as one's reality.
_______________________________________________________________________

skye:

Perhaps it is because we have come to a
half understanding of the nature of reality that we wail
"failure" empty or not. With each step we come to recognize
certain *facts* about the nature of reality and we begin at
once to alter the conditions that have caused us much
dismay and dissatisfaction. We are already
doing it with the little "me" but our creations are slow
and feeble reflections. The 'I' that is greater than any
"am" or "me" is the creator that will heal our world.
_______________________________________________________________________

Erin:


How to share it? is that my question or am "I" rushing on ahead?
Why do i wish for life to be swift?
Surely I must be able to to cherish to the depth of each moment.
What *develops* this? am i struggling?
I may not recognize my own worth and beauty, I know. Is this why I wish
to
share,
for approval? Don't I know that if I seed approval, disapproval grows in
my
vision as well?
What if I simply did what my heart told me to do> What is That???
I have been out of that listening, hard to return to it
Is it ill to ask for guidance? Ma?
guide me, teach me from on high
fed by ravens  sipping on dew
I wish my beauty and grace to shine a light
to consume all fear
Love Light, bring your torch to my willing heart
Brilliant Fire!!


Two days ago Eric and I spent hours upon hours posing me, him sketching,
preparing to paint
erotic poses, scary to share and yet we will and do
We consume our fear of loving others together
each of us in our own way confronting and embracing our demons
shining a light on their faces with Love.
_______________________________________________________________________

Skye posted:

"Reality is fine in small doses, but as a lifestyle I find
it confining."
   -- Lily Tomlin
_______________________________________________________________________

Old Hag:

Hello all dears:

Well, for those that cared, i rode out Irene.

Stood on top of my garbage pile, hands outstretched, and welcomed her
howling embrace....beautiful!  And then, just as she  began blowin'
powerful, beyond old frame's resistance,  i watched and learned from the
trees, the flowers and plants, even Mr. Mockingbird on a tall pine. They
were bending to her, surrendering, so old hag bent, surrendered, and
creaking bones still here! Even renewed a bit, ready to dance! ,^))
Thanks for your concern, aleks and Judi,  very fine dears.

Here is some Lao-Tzu (we went to third grade together):

"Other people are excited,
as though they were at a parade.
I alone don't care.
I alone am expressionless,
like an infant before it can smile.

Other people have what they need;
I alone possess nothing.
I alone drift about,
like someone without a home.
I am like an idiot, my mind is so empty.

Other people are bright;
I alone am dark.
Other people are sharp;
I alone am dull.
Other people have a purpose;
I alone don't know.
I drift like a wave on the ocean,
I blow as aimless as the wind.

I am different from ordinary people.
I drink from the Great Mother's breasts."


Have a wee sip before retiring, eh?

love,
oh



May you be free from suffering. May you be at peace.
_______________________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________

Susie:

Can it last forever?
-------------------------------------
xan:

*It* is forever.
As we awaken
from our dreams of the temporary
there we are as we always were
Silent and whole and love.
-------------------------------------

Surrender

It's now
or never
-------------------------------------

Tim:

Surrender to what?
-------------------------------------

xan:

surrender past and future to this Moment
surrender identity to boundless Heart
surrender ideas to Unknowing

surrender struggle to Effortlessness
surrender all my small stuff to Vastness
surrender doing to Being

now now now now now now now now now

surrender everything I think is going to One
-------------------------------------

peondon:


Can't speak for others but thirty odd years ago plus I
surrender to "what is".......just gave up desire, with
the barrel touching the temple, and I guess it's fair
to say "all heaven broke loose".(S) and (G)


________________________________________________________________________

Judi:

A must have book, great little stocking stuffer, hot off the presses,
by my very dear friend Timothy Schoorel in Amsterdam.
"The 7 Principles of Freedom, Handbook for a New Humanity"

The last paragraph of his book reads. I quote " Being enlightened does
not mean that you cannot be hurt or disappointed, or that all problems
have magically disappeared from life. Life always has its own problems,
even if you know that all is well. However, enlightenment does mean that
your
heart is free of conflict. The question is not how to be without
problems, or how to never be hurt.  The question that matters,
is whether your heart is free!"
________________________________________________________________________


Dan:

Beyond self or world, I am.  Beyond mind or body, I am.
--------------------------

Ashoka:

Sir, how did you come to know of this. When did it happen. How has your
vision changed. Can you share, if it is not too personal.
--------------------------

Dan:

The "personal self" went through quite a lot before it lost everything
it thought it stood on.  But the vision doesn't belong to that self. The
vision is only "Itself".  It is One, of One, and Itself never came into
being or went out of being. My "personal" vision changed
when I realized I didn't have to anticipate anything, could *be* "one
moment at a time".  All simply is as it is.  This One Moment simply
*is*.  So I came to know of it *now* -- this moment.  It happened *now*.
What happened was "this," or "myself".  There is nothing that needs to
change or be changed.  -- with love --


________________________________________________________________________

Dan: my intention is to wish you Truth, only Truth, always Truth --
being in Truth and nothing but the Truth (so help me God) -- with love
--------------------------------------

Welcome to the Cloud of Unknowing.  Enter and lose distinctions.
Lose distinctions and then lose your awareness of losing distinctions.
Lose the loss of distinctions and then "return" to friends, family,
colleagues - your responses will fit in perfectly - no self-conscious
"detachment" - simple responses to each situation - a perfect "fit"
with the situation.  Karma being played out is no-karma when seen
from the Cloud of Unknowing...  -- with love --


________________________________________________________________________

LBIDD:

  What is the problem?  What is the very heart seed of the problem?  The
Buddha said the problem is desire, but it seems to me that the problem
is faulty responses to various and sundry cues.  But fine tuning one's
response system isn't exactly an attainment worthy of the ancient
rishis.  So what really is the problem?
---------------------------------------

Tim:

Perhaps the belief that there is a problem? :-)
----------------------------------------

Skye:

who is seeing what problem?
---------------------------------------

Dan:

The problem, at its heart is the desire "to have" and the
associated anxiety about loss...
faulty responses to cues are the result of the
interposed "one who reacts" - that self which is built
of associations about what is desired, what one
has and can have, what one has lost, fears losing, and
is likely to lose in the future...
---------------------------------------

Xan:

The problem is false identity.
What you assume to be You is a collection
of ideas, memories, expectations, desires,
responses. These ideas and images serve as
a veil over the reality of you which is undefinable,
unboundaried and eternal.

The truth of you is found only in the present
moment, in the Silence between, beyond and
beneath your thoughts.
----------------------------------------

Gene:

The problem is the socially conditioned assumption that our original and
aways heartbreak is bad.

If we allow ourselves to realize the nature of our original condition,
that it is not bad, then there is no problem.

The socially conditioned assumption that our original condition, one of
longing, of heartbreak, is a bad thing and is a suffering that indicates
that we are incomplete, has spawned a multitude of 'saviours'. Some of
these 'saviours' are ideas, some are reputed to be people. These
'saviours' are very tempting, for one who assumes that heartbreak is a
problem. Eventually, however, each seeker realizes that they cannot be
'saved' by any of these saviors. At that point, the real struggle may
actually occur; the struggle to come to grips with reality, naked
reality, which is our original condition.

Buddha said that suffering is caused by 'dukkha'. Dukkha is defined as
'the assumption of incompleteness'. It is our assumption that we are
incomplete, which causes us to thus assume that our experience is one of
suffering. In our assumed suffering, we seek wholeness. By such seeking,
we suffer.

If we can stop for a while and examine our original condition, we can
see that we have concluded in error (with a lot of help, from our
cultures) that we are actually suffering. We suffer from lack of
understanding and nothing else. And our main misunderstanding is our
_assumption of incompleteness_, or as Buddha called it, "dukkha".

To remove dukkha, is to surrender to our original condition, which is an
attraction; It is not a neutrality.

This is why so many 'realizers' proclaim their 'love of G-d' as their
ultimate statement of reality.

It may be hard to realize this simple thing. Attraction does not imply
lack; instead, it implies the completeness of our given relationship
with G-d.

The desires of a 'profane one' are those desires which ignore the
wholeness of our given condition; it is those desires which are
indicative of the ignorance which results from the 'dukkha'.

Assuming wholeness is permitted at any time; to do so will remove one
from the arena of insufficiency which is the common human drama.
Typically, humans derive their only identity from this common human
drama; to do so is to also initiate a search for what we already have,
which is this gift of Being.

To allow wholeness is to allow the falling-away of what was taken up in
compensation for assumptions of 'unwholeness'. Thus denuded of the
clothing of shame, the underlying pride also disappears.

In summary, what is wrong, is our assumption that something is wrong.


________________________________________________________________________

Gene:

...Xan stated ...that 'some things do not fit neatly into packages of
understanding'. Maybe we could tolerate a little messyness, to unwrap a
few
of those packages, and see what they might contain? I can handle that. I
do
not always need *precise* and *clean* allusion, to appreciate the
offering
or thrust of the writer. If what is going on with this is to have to
state
the adherance to a 'party line', then I may have to start a new party.
Messy is Okay with me. Call me an infidel.
________________________________________________________________________

Judi:

*************
My heart has been completely and totally broken,
along with some others here too that know that
to be the case.

Some of you still fight it, but I tell you true,
it's a losing game. You will never win.

Love is a losing affair.
Everybody already knows that at heart.
That's what this is all about - heart.

So nobody is kidding anybody here, doesn't
matter how much anybody knows.

Like I have said before, what else can we really
expect except happiness itself??

That's it.  If you think there's something else in it
for you, you're gonna be disappointed.


*********************

Gene:

Thank you, sister. This is SO true. Absolutely true.

That which you refer to, is indeed all that there is. That is not just
the bottom line, it is the line over which nothing else may pass, not
matter how alluring and glorious anything else may seem.

So I hear you saying that it is good to surrender to this, at once.
Like, there is no good to negotiate, to bargain, to propose a wonderful
thing which then somehow would be allowed to pass. Yes, this I agree
with, totally.

You call it 'happiness'. That will serve for me.

In my own experience, the vaunted goals which the
seeker/sufferer/attainer/overcomer sees as worthy, are indeed worthy in
the context of the experience of the seeker. But at base, it comes down
to what you say. I appear naked, without accessories, at the gates of
the infinite, and that is all. My heartbreak is my happiness. Everything
else is ultimately chaff, blown away in the wind.

This seems to be hard to understand. I did not understand it for years.
It always seemed that I was required to acquire something, some kind of
key to something. What seems to be hard to understand is that the 'key'
is letting go of all keys; I am the key, you are the key, it is Being
which is the key, thus it can be said that I have always had the key.
And I know deeply, that I have always had heartbreak; it is what I
called suffering, for so many years. _It is the misapprehension_ of
heartbreak, that allows it to be commonly defined as suffering. Is this
what you mean here?

If I understand that I always have heartbreak, that all of these fine
toys are mine for a while only, that I only create real suffering by my
trying to make anything 'good' of these goodies, if I allow attachment
to this treasure of apparent life on Urth, that I miss the actual gift,
which is happiness? That by assuming that my _original_ heartbreak is
bad, that by then seeking what is good, that I in my frantic search,
simply succeed in acquiring what is 'bad', and that is exactly what I
must give up in order to find myself as that which is? That I accumulate
what I do not need, thinking that I need it?

Thank you, Judi, for your constancy in presenting this basic, most
basic, of realities to us, over and over again. Yes.

Happy and heartbroken,

Living in love,

==Gene Poole==

PS: Life on Urth IS a treasure. It is a great gift. I relish every
breath.
I am a hedonist. I simply point to 'who' is getting this gift. I do not
need to reject the gift, to assume that I am real. I can have it all!
And I
do.

Thanks again.
---------------------------------

xan:

Broken heart
breaking open
cracking here
crumbling there

Blowing through
my pure essence
a hurricane
a breeze
twirling leaves
devastation

Expectation
blown away
into unanticipated
Now.

________________________________________________________________________

Jerry:

This is a question for the Masters.
How to go about life in which we are expected to play roles
and wear masks and yet remain true to ourselves?
-----------------------------------

xan:

The Masters say,   "Remember that the
roles and masks don't mean anything at all."

I remember something from Jesus in
the New Testament that said something like,
"Wear your role in the world like a loose cloak."
________________________________________________________________________


Jerry posted:


The Pathway of Nonduality

by Raphael

Chapter 6

Metaphysical Realization (concluded)

And Samkara comments: "Asparsa is the yoga without sparsa:
contact or connection with anything at all; it is of the
very nature of Brahman [Absolute]. Those who know Brahman
call it by this name; in other words Asparsa-Yoga is that
which is free from all relation. It becomes a blessing for
all beings.... We can say that the enjoyment of any
particular type of object may bring happiness, but not
constant well-being [we stated above that the happiness of
the empirical ego is always contingent and fleeting because
it is based on external factors]; this yoga, instead, brings
blessings and at the same time stable well-being, because
its nature is beyond the non-permanent. Besides it is devoid
of opposition. Why? Because it is devoid of contradictions
[individuality is based on opposition because it expresses
itself upon the ego/non-ego plane].... The idea is that this
truth can only be realized as consequence of an impetus the
crowning of which is awareness of the atman as sole
Reality.... The non-discriminating fear, while practising
this yoga, is the extinction of their individuality,
although (asparsa) is beyond all fear.

Those who believe the mind and the sense organs to be the
snake superimposed on the rope, therefore having no reality
independent of Brahman, identify with Brahman without fear,
enjoying in a natural way that eternal peace called
emancipation, which depends on no other factor."

Those who think that the psychological or empirical ego is
their true reality undoubtedly fear metaphysical realization
because they beleive they will extinguish, annhihilate and
lose themselves. And wanting at all costs to avoid the death
of their ego -- which is in any case perishable -- they
invent philosophies and sciences to support and satisfy
their insecurity and incompletelness.

This philosophical vision is typical of the present day
where the mirage and illusion of the 'golden calf' appears
as the solution to the 'well being' of the ego.

Q. So Asparsa realization has no other aim than to actuate
oneself in metaphysical Unity?

A. The dualist philosophy cannot lead to the realization of
metaphysical Unity. At most it can achieve a mathematical
unity which implies duality and which is not the Absolute.

On the contrary, true metaphysical realization implies
actuating our most profound nature which is Non-duality.
Now, our true nature (not that illusory 'second nature'
represented by our empirical ego) is achieved by an act of
Knowledge and of Identity.

To disclose our true nature we do not need any particular
physical or mental 'exercise', though they may be used at
the preparatory stages, but we have to eliminate the
qualitative superimpositions that have been projected upon
the Self-Being.

Q. Is metaphysical realization a question of knowledge,
then?

A. This question helps to clarify further the concept of
'actuation' or of 'potentiality' and 'act'.

Metaphysical Unity is pure actuation and excludes all
passages from potentiality to act: to speak of the eternally
present and infinite Being in terms of even theoretical
phases is impossible. The Ever Present has no history, it
has no actuation, it has no movement because it has no
generation (ajati). Metaphysical realization, rather than a
question of actuation-realization as presented above, is an
act of immediate knowledge and awareness, because pure Being
is not attained by steps or through supports, nor can pure
Being be grasped in the process of actuation.

If we fail to understand, though, through intellection, what
we are and what we are not we shall always remain in the
sphere of sensory perception and of subject-object
otherness.

Q. However, many kinds of yoga and religious doctrines adopt
empirical media rather than Knowledge.

A. Most people, by means of empirical media, 'actuate'
samadhis which imply simple experimentation of individual
states of consciousness, states outside of the dense and
gross sphere.

Individuality is not confined to the corporeal state, but
extends also into the subtle, though substantial, one.
However, in the subtle
and
even in the causal state (the three levels of existential
manifestation) we are not in the realm of the Absolute or in
the metaphysical sphere.

Pure Being is attained through Being, through a
consciousness awakening which resolves itself in Identity or
in being Being.

________________________________________________________________________
xan:

...It's amazing how many people are terrified of an honest expression of
feeling...
-------------------------
Melody:

An honest expression of feeling is the most terrifying
monster of all.  It also guards the deepest treasures,
doesn't it?
________________________________________________________________________

Larry:

   Thanks for the many responses to my question about what is the
problem.  They all seemed to suggest that whatever is the cause of
unhappiness, it's my fault.  How can that be???  I didn't do any thing;
I'm just sitting here.
--------------------------
skye:

yeah with an attitude, shining one ;-)
--------------------------
xan:

It's not your fault.
How illusion began is a mystery.
It is your opportunity to be part of the Awakening.
--------------------------
Jan:

It isn't a matter of "anyone's" fault; it isn't even a
construction fault. Think of unconditional happiness "the
other way around": who would care to go on living "as usual"
when unconditionally happy? Life would grind to a halt
completely, with all creatures just belly gazing :) So there
is a reason why unconditional happiness isn't accessed at the
flick of a switch. Just sitting is quite OK, it reminds of the
muddy pond with rotting leaves etc., stirred up by the winds
of thoughts and emotions. When the winds subside and the mud
has sunk, a piece of the bottom can be seen and it appears to
be made of the purest gold. Then, a big clean up follows,
taking many years.
---------------------------
art:

there is no denying that depression sucks.  the mind spins on occasion,
and
settles on occasion.  its all monkey mind.  in the midst of it all, it
doesn't matter how we feel-----although easier said, than "done" when
missing the conscious connection with Being.  its there alright, we just
miss the forest for the trees at times due to lifetimes of social
conditioning and security, survival issues deeply engrained.  grace is
responsible for being awake to truth, whether we feel connected to it or
not.  perservere.  be with like minded people who understand and
celebrate
when you can.
--------------------------
Don:

HEY, peon knows of no better medicine than "just sitting".
--------------------------
Dan:

I see no fault being assigned to you.  I didn't hear such suggested
in the responses I read, simply indications related to being aware.  I
guess it's all a matter of interpretation.  If just sitting and doing
nothing is working, and if there is no unhappiness "caused", then there
is no problem, and nothing that needs to be done.
________________________________________________________________________

Larry:

   I don't understand the "who am I" question/practice.  I suppose the
usual response is "not this, not this" (not this thought, not this
feeling, not this body), but it makes sense to me to say I am both
subject and object.  Why limit it to subject only?  Thanks for your
boundless enthusiasm.
--------------------------
xan:

Whatever might be the "usual" response matters not at all.  Discovering
the wordless, non-conceptual answer is where subject and object
disappear.

You could read the dialogues of the father of self inquiry as
"Who am I?", Ramana Maharshi, for more understanding.
--------------------------
art:

inquire as to the questioner, who is the ego who bothers to ask.
pin point the ego and it vanishes like a shadow.  what is left is the
answer you seek.
________________________________________________________________________

glo:

... Perhaps no one knows anyone, including knowing ourselves.
Neither seriousness nor humor seems to help at this point.
________________________________________________________________________

Melody:


...Frankly tonight I'm kind of sick of people talking
about love and enlightenment and happiness, all the
while hitting another with a stick, as if for entertainment.

Tonight I feel hypocrisy all around me. (Shall we
assume that we all understand that 'the external is a
reflection of the internal', and proceed from here?)
I know it's all a 'mirror'.  I'm just sick of the
mirror.

I'm sick of people saying words of love, and 'teaching'
and 'enlightenment' and 'still point', and all the time
I'm feeling this passive aggressive 'jabbing'.

Who loves me enough to really talk to me straight
tonight....without laughing at (or taking what I say
as an affront) what's moving thru me tonight?...
________________________________________________________________________

Xanma:

I'm pondering this question:

What do we do when we find someone
on the forum/life irritating or wrong or
wish they would change or shut up or
go away?
----------------------
Tim:

Change, shut up or go away ourselves.
----------------------
Petros:

Three impossibilities.
----------------------

How could "I" leave, since there is no "I" to leave?  If "I" were to
leave,
"you" would leave, for are not "I" you?  What is there but the One?  Are
there "levels" of nonduality?
----------------------
Tim:

Then bless and thank that
person for
acting as a mirror and helping us with the incentive to lose more ego.
----------------------
Petros:

Bless you . . . and thanks, for giving more people the incentive to lose
more ego than just about anyone else on the list!
----------------------
Tim:

Thanks, for showing me how NOT to communicate, and for demonstrating
what a real ass a person can be, so I can avoid being that way myself.
Bless you for your ignorance, rajasic personality, nastiness, overblown
ego
and unnecessary insults.  Now I know how not to behave on a mailing
list.
Thank you for tempting this ego to respond to your insults with insults,
and helping to delineate it, so it can be gotten rid of all the faster.
----------------------
Petros:

Why get rid of it?
----------------------
Dan:

For me, on list or "real life", I experience the irritation or
frustration as fully as possible.  I don't separate myself from the
experience by "blaming" it on something outside of me. I seek to
interact with this "other person" in whatever way seems wisest in the
situation as I perceive it, and that rarely involves being reactive to
an emotional state ("mine" or "theirs").
    There is a difference between awareness and reactivity, and for me,
noticing this difference assists me in interacting.
----------------------
Gene:

Hi Xan, glad you asked!

Here are the Top Ten ways to deal with irritating and/or annoying,
wrongheaded list subscribers who just won't go away!

10 - eVooDoo

9 - Consult with TG (moderator, I AM list, also known as 'the
lobsterator')

8 - Provoke them to an angry, obscene outpouring of dysfunctional crap,
which will get them unsubbed

7 - use a posterbot to post every 10 minutes, a posting which calls them
a
'big doo-doo head'

6 - Tell them that you will not miss them when they die, or if they move
to
antarctica

5 - Criticise them with words which you know they cannot understand

4 - Give their email address to thousands of 'free XXX pics' spammers

3 - Send them weblinks to pages which advertise free lobotomy-reversal
surgical operations

2 - Post a letter generated by: <
http://www-csag.cs.uiuc.edu/individual/pakin/complaint>

... And the number one way to deal with irritating posters...

1 - Hire Gene "eHitman" Poole to write a scathing, critical letter!
Reasonable rates!
----------------------
xan:

If misidentification is a form of dishonesty
"I am this body, this name, this career ....."

then misplacement of blame is also dishonest.
"My discomfort is your fault."

If this truth is known
"I am undefinable, unlimited Being."

then honesty of personal expression
knows there is no outside causation.
"I got really bugged when I read your message.
   It's my personal pattern and thank you for
   reminding me of what I have kept excluded
   from the truth."
________________________________________________________________________

xan:

I can tell you my experience of this point.  When
'stepping beyond it' stopped working I learned to
just face it.  To be simply fully present with
whatever shows up that seems to be excluded
from the purity of wholeness is miraculous.

Melody:

"It doesn't feel like enough" is my first response to
your suggestion.    I do that..... but then I start to
get aggravated that 'nothing's changed'.  I get aggravated
not that external events are unchanged, but that 'I' still
want to be different, and am not.

Listening to my thoughts just now, I'm hearing a lot of
self-judgment.  I'm hearing my self say that it's okay
to be accepting of whatever comes 'out there'....but it's
still rejecting of whatever arises 'within'.

I'm seeing right now that I reject the part of me
that is 'rejecting'.

<..taking a big gulp and a deep breath..>

Thank you, Xan.  It's one thing to 'know' what
one's shadow is, and another thing to 'touch it'.
--------------------
xan:

  I have thought of this as letting the finite and the infinite touch.
  Of course, it's only a mind trick that thinks anything has been
  held apart, but since it is, another trick can begin the undoing of it.
________________________________________________________________________

skye:

...All I know is that if I trust, accept and know myself, I
don't have the need to protect or defend myself, for no one
can hurt me without my participation and without my
permission. I think it extremely important to recognize that
I am the one who is hurtful to me, not another individual.
It is my choice to be hurt by another or their opinion.

I love the different ways you all say your wise shit!
Most of us here have learnt the tough lesson that, to accept
others, you must accept yourself, and the best way to accept
self is to exercise your freedom to "not agree" with others
and be who you are.

When we are all truly accepting of self, we can indulge in a
lot more "friendly disagreement" which I think we need in
order to grow. Accepting others does not mean I have to
agree with them. Reality is infinitely richer now that I am
not holding myself to any one particular explanation of it.

Obviously, there are still fears and unfaced issues within
me but  I no longer project those out onto other people and
see *them* as threats to my peace of mind. Honesty (with
one's self) opens us up and lets vitality rush in...
________________________________________________________________________

Petros:

About humor: I always thought "laughing at oneself" was a cover for
seeing
the truth, i.e., that we all only care about ourselves first and
foremost,
and value our self higher than anyone else.
________________________________________________________________________

Dan:

...There is much more to intelligence than intellect, than the
use of thought.  We even know this in our human life - there is
perceptual intelligence, movement intelligence.  How much more so for
the universe -
the intelligence to "grow" a solar system.  This is more than an
"intellectual accomplishment"!  Pure awareness extends far beyond the
realms of thought, and yet with such awareness, thought's dimensionality
expands greatly.
________________________________________________________________________

Jerry:

I'm wondering whether, when on death bed, there'll be the
feeling that lives today are in some ways missing something.

For there is plain silence. Either one has yet to come to
that silence or already has and still has energy to prattle
about it.

There is that deep silence to come to. That is the final
stage prior to death (it is inseparable from death) and it
finds one utterly alone, if even for a moment.

I don't know of anything to come to except the silence that
eats all identity.

Anyone who's come to it and still has that energy to prattle
might look around and say, Enlightenment is wasted on the
enlightened.
________________________________________________________________________

The following is delivered into our palms by John Metzger:

St. Kevin and the Blackbird

         "And then there was St. Kevin and the blackbird.
         The saint is kneeling, arms stretched out, inside
         His cell, but the cell is narrow, so

         One turned-up palm is out the window, stiff
         As a crossbeam, when a blackbird lands
         And lays in it and settles down to nest.

         Kevin feels the warm eggs, the small breast, the
tucked
         Neat head and claws and, finding himself linked
         Into the network of eternal life

         Is moved to pity: now he must hold his hand
         Like a branch out in the sun and rain for weeks
         Until the young are hatched and fledged and flown.

         And since the whole thing's imagined anyhow,
         Imagine being Kevin. Which is he?
         Self-forgetful or in agony all the time

         From the neck on out down through his  hurting
             forearms?
         Are his fingers sleeping? Does he still feel his
knees?
         Or has the shut-eyed blank of underneath
         Crept up through him? Is there distance in his head?
         Alone and mirrored clear in love's deep river,
         'To labour and not to seek reward' he prays,

         A prayer his body makes entirely
         For he has forgotten self, forgotten bird
         And on the riverbank forgotten the river's name."

                     --Seamus Heaney
____________________________________________________________________

NOTICE OF CHAT SESSION:

Hi All...

Big ChatFest on Sunday, noon, Pacific time.

See you all there!

We will be discussing the upcoming 'ZeroFest' gathering...
bring creative ideas!

Beyond Y2K...

On to Y2OK...

==Gene Poole==

For anyone who is new to chat, you might want to go to the
following link and check it out.

<a href="http://dragon.minopher.net.au/WebEd/protocol.htm">

The chat room itself is at

<a
href="http://www.eScribe.com/religion/nondualitysalon/chat">

Thanks for organizing this, Gene.

--Jerry
______________________________________________________________________

ERIC:

I wanted to share here the experience which just occurred
within me, these last few moments.
Another, an acquaintance of little more than a few weeks of
internet connection, opened, a door, of such profound
experience, that gifting gentleness, and power.

And in this place of speaking, and thusly furthering a
sharing from friend to friend, I wish to attempt to remind
all of us why we have come to this list.

I am simply talking through a dream, until a connection is
in actually, realized.  This happened for me tonight in the
chat room.  The *server* is now gone, and yet their link
remains *active*.  Recent objection to banter and rants is
clearly understood from this place of pervasive stillness.
I, a fully licensed trickster, has just momentarily bowed
out.  The immensity of all this is not lost on me.

I did not come here for any other reason than to increase
perceived Light, and offer my life force toward *helping*
other's awakening.  What a surprise, to be assisted by
another, myself!  In love, truly humbleness, shines.  And
thanks to all of us here, dearly including those on
sabbaticals, I am finding myself further humbled,
unbelievably, yet again.

This occurs to me as an invention, and natural result, of
the Complete Sum of our energies, from seekers to Old Hags,
list rulers to drop-ins.

I float on a momentum created waterway of care, and freely
offered Love.

It inspires in myself, that far beyond me.  I wished to
give...and yet I received.

Stay!  Awaken!
Blessed Hotel.

We are all so very beautiful, round here.

Eric S.  Laing Good Morning Loves~

___________________________________________________________________

PHIL:

What is this "human mind" which is so powerful as to eclipse
nonduality?
I am not so sure I believe in "human mind".  I posted a view
of "mind"
some time back that got lost in the ozone of this list (no
response).
What is called "mind" is a subtle energy, which is creative
in essence.
Mind does not exist over against the nondual, but openly or
obliquely manifests the One.  It is the play of
Shiva/Shakti, and there are no separate or separative powers
as against That.  All that is is consciousness/energy.
Consciousness is energy and energy is consciousness.
Neither mind nor body nor soul nor personality exist apart
from That.  Realizing is That.  Non-realizing is That.  Use
the mind recursively and see what it means.

______________________________________________________________________
PHIL:

How can you be so sure that you are not now in the "other
place" of which you speak?  "Mars and Earth" are just a
perspective.  From the point of view of the whole solar
system, there is no difference.

This did remind me of a PBS special about Rumi I watched
last night.
Rumi said somewhere that language-use is a mark of
separation from the Source.  But what if separation is
impossible?  What if "separation" is only a "leela" or
divine trick and the ineluctable reality is that You are
That always and everywhere?

___________________________________________________________________

JOHN METZGER:

Am I even close, to surmise that nonduality might be a
"perfection" of one's point of view, but not necessarily of
one's personality?  From my lowly discursive vantage-point,
can the same question be asked of what is called
enlightenment?  Do I need to "see" nondualistically to
evolve toward or realize a state of being unconditionally
loving?
What is an example of the most loving, most aware being of
duality?  Does 'it" depend on how I cut the Christ-mind, "I
and the Father are one," according to my own petty measure?
What can an ol' hillbilly do?

I saw Bo Diddly at one of those Everly Brothers festivals
one year in Central city.  One more lesson in nonduality.

____________________________________________________________________

HANS:

This is my meditation.  I totally ignore whatever arises.
Whatever arises is only a story and nothing more.  A bunch
of words or pictures.  If I would pay any attention to it, I
would get caught up in it.  Just not worth it.  I just stay
within this feeling of "existence".  The "I" is still there,
but is not filtering anymore.  It feels as if my attention
is being drawed to a certain "non-place" and whatever arises
just falls into it and vanishes.  Very difficult to explain
in words.

____________________________________________________________________

LITTLE B:

Thank you Hans for the courage to write and send this
message.  It is of great encouragement and help to little
b.  The messages floats close to my heart.

Jean Klein is a very meaningful teacher for this mean little
spark.

Some excerpts that I found in "The Ease of Being"...

"Once you give the body a chance to be body, once you stop
projecting patterns, the unconditioned nature of your body
comes up in your awareness."

"In waiting without expectation, your real life appears.

"Heidegger calls this way of seeing "waiting without
waiting."  JK-- "objectless waiting"

"You must lose yourself in objectless waiting.  When you do,
you give up taking, you give up doing, you give up
creating.  Then life spontaneously creates in you."  "But
when this happens, there is nobody to whom it happens.
In timeless awareness there is nobody."

Giving all objects their freedom.
I return to stillness and silence.
In this I discover that I am Free.
_____________________________________________________________________

JAN:

Is is quite possible to "arrive" at nonduality without
having any knowledge of it.  As this is the exception, it
cannot be made into a system or belief but the exception is
fundamental; recognition of "what is" will happen
automatically when awareness is (temporarily) freed from
conditioning.  No quest, no seeking, no meditation, no
belief and unlearning instead of learning.  I won't say that
is easy difficult or anything else:
it has happened this way and the biography of Ramana
Maharshi shows one of such examples; probably there are
many.

"Awareness temporarily freed from conditioning" is likely to
be a very inexact term.  If the "first flash" is untainted,
one knows immediately "this is it" and one will go after it
no matter what it takes.  Intuition will cry out loud what
to do and what shouldn't so again, no quest, seeking or
belief but spontaneous meditation and learning by
experience.  This will result in a second "flash" with
permanent relief (from the "I").  As nondual only means "not
two" I hope it is clear.  It still isn't the end of the road
but the wheel is halted.

Just for the sake of argument for those "not +knowing+ to be
there already" this is described as simultaneous living in
two worlds, the immovable kingdom of heaven and the world of
sense objects, or as a "dual, simultaneous consciousness":
one of the changeless Brahman and one of Maya.

Although the foundation of nondualism can be found in
scriptures, the foundation of the foundation is the pathless
path and direct experience.
P.S.  One might ask why the "first flash" is for some so
bright as to see the "goal" at one glance.  If this wasn't
possible, again that would mean a cause to "arrive" and the
need of a path to "go".  So the question could be rephrased
as "how does one know for sure to have dropped all
conditioning?" and the answer to that is " one can only know
when taking leave from life in the act of dying".  This is
rather serious and one won't laugh until the "first flash".
Interestingly, in Italy there has been a monastery where the
monks were sleeping in coffins.  There isn't a description
of their sadhana though...

___________________________________________________________________

PEON:

If peon has not experienced there is not a cow in Texas nor
a guitar in Tennessee, but by equal odds peon can never
expect to help another experience, nor does peon really much
care.

Being in agreement with Richard Bucke of Cosmic
Consciousness recognition, there is not any feeling or
thought, that such is, or even could be, a consideration.

That such experience is spontaneous is of no doubt to peon.
That it could well fit the definition of an accident is also
of little doubt.  I do however believe (as differentiated
from "know") that actions may be taklen which enhance the
probability of having such accident.

Peon is not here to teach anyone anything, nor does peon
care to do so. I am here for the sole purpose of being in
the company of other souls who are either experiencers or
interested in such because life at my age is, in retirement,
finally allowing time for such activity, and this media
allows me to reach into places sorely missed and unavailable
in earlier days.

If it becomes apparent to me that my presence is not desired
I shall, as I have in the past, depart.

My attitude is such that if I can learn from anyone, great.
If anyone perchance learns anything from this simple minded
experiencer, that too is fine.  If not, so be it.

My natural state is a very joyful one, simple, open,
truthful, not obsesssed by doubts but trusting this Universe
which has labored endlessly for billions of years that I
might be sitting here tonight pecking with two feeble
fingers on this keyboard.

That we are here is proof enough for me that all is Miracle
and worthy of our acceptance, and it is evident to me that
creation requires a Creator.  Beyond such, I have, as I have
stated, experienced the Creator.  Belief in that by anyone
else carries no weight nor does disbelief.  What is is.

______________________________________________________________________

==GENE POOLE==

Hi All,

Well, it is me again, or still.  Sometimes I feel like I am
fielding balls from a hundred batters.  No matter.

I want to assure you that no matter what heavenly postion
you may assume that I assume myself to be holding, that I am
actually right in here with you, in both mud and light.  I
truth, I enjoy both.

I have often revealed my longing for direct honesty.  Yet to
do so, invariably brings forth protests that I accuse others
of dishonesty.
Similar to my statement of my own style, which elicited
protests that I was issuing edicts.  Why are these things an
issue for me?

I am unsure of others, but my own goal is to clear obstacles
to unassuming clarity.  For me, this means to state myself,
rather than my 'beliefs'.  I am not dogma, I am me.  If I do
not present dogma, it cannot be objected to.
But if I present me, no matter what style or words used,
objection is possible.  And this is good.  Why?  Because at
the base of it, it is not belief or dogma which will 'rule',
but instead, an abiding, unshakeable 'sense of self'.  It is
in the security of myself, that I propose to write here.

I note that myself is not an idea, although the idea of
myself does exist as an idea.  I experience myself as an
unseen, unknown (usually!  Not always!) quality.  If anyone
has an idea of what I am, and they do not approve of that,
they my certainly point that out to me, in their own way.
But I offer that if one actually does 'know' what I am, that
one also knows the 'me' as being the 'same me' which that
one is.  So then there is no contention.

Contention occurs around ideas in discussion; it also occurs
around evaluation of other's behaviour and the assumptions
behind those evaluations.  Hurt feelings abound; it is usual
to find that one who usually is 'sensitive' will strike
'back' if it is assumed that there has been a 'strike' in
the first place, as though being struck is an allowance to
strike.

I have written many of these letters; this is the first one
that I am sending.  I do not wish to clog the bandwidth with
my personal whinings, especially if I think that I will be
seen as some vast pontificating stuffed shirt, or worse.
(heaven forbid!)

I ask you...  what is going on with you?  Do you enjoy the
tensions of unexpressed anxiety and fear?  Why do you
tolerate it?  I propose that it is tolerated, because in
their own way, each has a vested interest in maintaining
it.  It serves to 'shake out' loyalties and provokes
side-taking; in that regard, it is also interesting to note
that some will placate, and others will fan flames.  But no
matter, as long as the game continues, it is all grist for
the mill.  It is only the family-game of 'we do not talk
about these things here' which enables ongoing unstated or
understated tensions in a population; someone has something
to gain, and someone has something to lose, so the
conspiracy is to keep the stressors going, to provoke the
evolution of short-term gains.

I state honestly, that I love every one of us; this NDS is a
great thing, and I want to keep it going.  I do not want it
to degenerate into a personality cult; either by praise of
personality or by condemnation of personality.  It can work
either way.

I say, beware pickpockets!

Figure that one out.

As I said, I do not usually send these letters which I write
to myself, to help myself clarify my own thoughts.  But this
one I am sending, rather than to the trash.  Put it there
yourself if that is where you feel it belongs.
Comment invited.

"Community is the sharing of the burden of personality"


______________________________________________________________________
NONDUAL DON QUIXOTE

from ZEN IN ENGLISH LITERATURE (1941)

R.H.  BLYTH

from the PREFACE

Zen is the most precious possession of Asia.  With its
beginnings in India, development in China, and final
practical application in Japan, it is today the strongest
power in the world.  It is a world-power, for in so far as
men live at all, they live by Zen.  Wherever there is a
poetical action, a religious aspiration, a heroic thought, a
union of the Nature within a man and the Nature without,
there is Zen.

Speaking generally, in world culture we find Zen most
clearly and significantly in the following: in the ancient
worthies of Chinese Zen, for instance, Eno and Ummon; in the
practical men of affairs of Japan, Hojo Tokumune, for
example, and in the poet Basho; in Christ; in Eckehart, and
in the music of Bach; in Shakespeare and Wordsworth.  'Zen
in English Litarature' embraces the literature of Zen in
Chinese and Japanese, the Chinese and Japanese classics, and
the whole extent of English literature, with numerous
quotations from German, French, Italian and Spanish
literatures.  Don Quixote has a chapter all to himself; he
is for the first time, I believe, satisfactorily explained.
He is the purest example, in the whole of world literature,
of the man who lives by Zen; but Sancho Panza also is not so
far from the Kingdom of Heaven as perhaps even his author
supposed.

_______________________________________________________________________

The Pathway of Nonduality

by Raphael

Chapter 7

The Three States of Being

Q.  What do the three states of Being and the Fourth,
mentioned in the Mandukya Upanishad, mean?  There is also
mention of the three worlds of manifestation; do these
correspond to the three states?  Some speak of seven worlds;
is this perhaps in disagreement with the teaching of the
Upanishads?


A.  Every world can be subdivided into other worlds or
spheres of existence; therefore mention is made of three,
five, seven and even ten worlds.  The number is of little
importance.  It depends upon the point of view from which
one wishes to examine things.


For example, the physical plane may be taken as a whole or
divided into its solid, liquid and gaseous dimensions; we
know that, within each of these live and move entities which
are different from one another.  Thus in the 'liquid'
dimension, although it belongs to the gross-physical domain,
a world quite apart from the solid one lives and moves and
may even be considered as a world unto itself with its own
specific qualities.  In any case, we can say with the
Mandukya Upanishad:


"All this is surely Brahman.  This atman is Brahman and
atman has four quarters (pada).


"The first quarter is vaisvanara, whose sphere of action is
the waking state....


"The second quarter is taijasa (the luminous), whose sphere
of action is the state of dreaming....


"The third quarter is prajna, whose sphere of action is deep
sleep....


"The sages believe that the Fourth...is invisible,
non-acting...."


The Mandukya is defined as that Upanisad which alone
synthesizes the whole of Vedanta teaching.  We find in it
the enunciation of the three states of Being as well as the
Fourth which refers to the metaphysical and transcendent
state.


All branches, both Western and Eastern, of the Tradition
recognize the fact that the one Being expresses Itself, on
the plane of manifestation, in different vital states, in
different existential forms or in various modes.


One may also say that Being expresses Itself in various
vibratory states of consciousness, both at the formal and
formless levels.  It follows that we have to distinguish the
existential plane from the entities that live and are in it.


Let us take as an instance the dense physical plane, that
is, the plane on which we are experiencing our present
lives.  It is a plane of existence.  It is formed by solid,
liquid and gaseous vibrations, etc., which belong to the
gross plane of vaisvanara, in all these vibratory state, as
we already mentioned, there are entites that live, move, a
way of being, millions of entities that express their
qualities through well-defined forms; in the gaseous state,
or in the air, as many millions more of entities carry on
their existence and their being, and so on.


When the Mandukya Upanisad speaks of vaisvanara it refers to
our bodily state, our physical being, our gross state, which
corresponds to the gross universal plane Being (Virat).
Therefore we have that visva, or the entity identified with
visva, experiments [sic] upon a portion of the Virat plane.


Visva is the individual entity; Virat is the universal
Entity; therefore Virat is not only our planet but the
totality of the worlds that express themselves upon the
gross plane.


The sphere of action, of manifestation of the jiva-visra
(the soul embodied upon the gross plane) is that which man
normally calls waking -- naturally as compared with dream
and sleep.  Through this state of consciousness and upon the
existential plane of Virat, the human jiva has various kinds
of experience.


This state is characterized by ahamkara (the sense of ego),
by manas (the empirical projective mind), by kama (desire in
its indefinite expressions) and by the gross physical body
(sthulasarira or annamayakosa, body made of food, or, in the
correspondent's case, 'cheetomayacola').  Therefore the
jiva, by means of appropriate bodies of manifestation, with
their respective senses and faculties, experiences the
vaisvanara sphere.


The world of the bodies-visra is a world of needs, tension
and conflict because it is essentially a world of want,
poverty and non-being.


But besides the dense physical plane, the jiva-entity
experiences with its subtle body (lingasarira) another
existential plane, that of Hiranyagarbha.


(to be continued)


_____________________________________________________________________

SKYE:


In the beginning the Universe was created.  This has made a
lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a
bad move...


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ALEKS

reading about one of my favorite writers, was reading that
Thomas Merton, one year prior to his death, became
fascinated with concrete or visual poetry.  he wrote to a
friend, fellow word lover: "thanks for the Concrete Poets.
Magnificent.  Great to have and soak in. I see what you mean
by the square effort.  True does not connect at all.
..Wow!"

the sound of words, and the visual effect on the page is to
me a big part of the poetry experience of these poets.

here's one of Merton's early efforts:

WHISKE
WHI  SK
WHISSS
KE   E  Y
SHKEE Y
WHISKW
HISKWY
WHISKY

wisky  EY
EYE hisky
WHISK W
aaaashky
wh ISkey
whi SK y
YK ehwik

WHISKI
hseykW
HIsk ey
WISHKI

--Thomas Merton
     1968

in  his pre-monastic days, Merton was already writing in
words for sounds sake.
this is from "My argument with the gestapo:"

Yherezt nopitty ont dzhe steirs. ..
Dzhere eitz nobbudy onz dhe stoirs. ..
Dzhere idz nyubbodi omn dlhe stiarts. . .
Tzere its noobodo uan we stairs. ..
Dear has nopretty in the stars. ..
Dzhere ess know's doddy on these stairs...
  --thomas merton
      1941



l  ove
lo    e
eo   l
  over
&&&&
b e s s
bl s s
i  ngs

a     s
    !

____________________________________________________________________

Since everything is but an apparition,
perfect in being what it is,
having nothing to do with good or bad,
acceptance or rejection,
one may well burst out in laughter.

Longchenpa (offered by Xan)

----------------------

And this is reason enough to think seriousness a
dis_ease, which assessment itself requires some seriousness
if it is to be taken seriously.

--peon

___________________________________________________________________


"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion."


Tenzin Gyatso - 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet (contributed by
Lynne)
___________________________________________________________________

TIM

Interesting...  I utilized an online I-Ching predictor,
thinking of nothing at all but OM (empty mind), and got the
following:

Fellowship: Tong Ren (or 'Union of men') appears here as we
find it in the remote districts of the country, indicating
progress and success.  It will be advantageous to cross the
great stream.  It will be advantageous to maintain the firm
correctness of the superior man.

The upper trigram (three lines) represents heaven, which is
above; the lower represents fire, whose tendency is to mount
upwards.  All these things are in harmony with the idea of
union.  But the union must be free from all selfish motives,
and this is indicated by its being in the remote districts
of the country, where people are unsophisticated, and free
from the depraving effects endemic in large societies.  A
union from such motives will cope with the greatest
difficulties; and yet a word of caution is added.

The divided lines (yin) and the undivided lines (yang) can
change from one to another.  Since 2 lines are changing,
additional judgments are indicated:

The changing bottom line:
Shows the representative of the union of men just issuing
from his gate.
There will be no error.

The changing third line (from the bottom):
Shows its subject with his arms hidden in the thick grass,
and at the top of a high mound.  But for three years he
makes no demonstration.

'Crossing the great stream,' an expression frequent in the
I-Ching, may mean undertaking hazardous enterprises, or
encountering great difficulties, without any special
reference; but more specifically it is understood to be 'the
great stream', the Yellow river, which the lords of Zhou
must cross in the revolutionary movement against the dynasty
of Shang and its tyrant.  The passage of it by King Wu, the
son of Wen in 1122 BC was certainly one of the greatest
deeds in the history of China
_______________________________________________________________________

TIM

What about all the mindful drivel?  All words are drivel.
Only in "subjective experience" is truth found.

The free live by no rules.

The strong know they are eternal, and do not need to
"attempt" to survive. Survival is eternal and automatic.

Anyone on a "quest to stay alive" is one of the weak, not of
the strong.
Beware the weak.

______________________________________________________________________

SKYE AND DAN

skye: so you believe it is purely an activity of the
neurons?


Dan: Skye, I admire your ability to ponder rationally while
those around you engage in personal columnies of the most
assaultive and unpredictable kinds.  To answer your
question, no, I believe neurons are the results of human
perception and cognition.


dan: There is no "mental substance" upon which it is based.
The substanceless nature of this, the lack of any underlying
foundation, is what turns "me" to "This."  Releasing any
dependency on a framework or substance underlying thought,
"I" am no longer based in thought's parameters.  Thought is
free to continue to operate according to the needs of a
given perceptual situation.


skye: I can see as confirmed by quantum physics the
possibility of a substanceless foundation but I am
nevertheless humbled by its apparent creative powers
reflecting in me and remain open to the possibility that I
ponder from slow dense vibrational awareness, couched in a
vast benevolent cosmic mental and astral sub standing
awareness.  That it may ultimately lack an underlying
foundation does not not diminish my awe of this voidless
void as it bestows on me, the ability to create a universe
as 'idea'.


D:  Yes - there is an awe to beholding the creative aspect
of awareness.  It creates me and it creates "idea."  There
is then an "attraction" to move beyond beholding "creation"
to awareness itself.  Resting in awareness itself there is
that which is neither creative nor destructive - pure
awareness beyond concept, beyond the concept "awareness" -
really all that is - no description there, no reaction, no
where to go ---

skye: But I am gathering that you see the mind as an 'idea'
a belief thought has and you don't believe that such an idea
is a substantial basis for operating and making intelligent
creations or fun holograms to play in?


D:  Yes.  Thought uses its own ideas to try to perpetuate
perception of an underlying reality to itself, a self to its
thinking process.  Thought attempts to use perception for
thought's ends, rather than "surrendering" its "self", so
that, along with perception, the One can shine through all.
These words I speak are merely a way to conceptualize the
ending of thought's illusory creation of a self apart from
the simple "is-ness" of reality.


skye: And in realizing the non separation of "is-ness", the
mystery of the vastness of this sub-stanceless "One Mind"
remains, no?


D:  Indeed - what remains, remains.  It remains after there
are no words, no concepts, no one to label it, experience
it, discuss it.  What remains after all that can be taken
away is gone, after all that can arise has subsided, after
all that depends on dichotomous contrast for its "existence"
has faded, including the dichotomies of
existence/nonexistence, unity/chaos, one/many, mind/body,
substance/emptiness.  We invent ways to discuss it for the
sake of expression, poetry, communion, and also to dispel
false rumours :-)


Calling "it" "One Mind" (or Void, That, "isness," God, Self,
Being, Emptiness)
is a convention used for discussion.  Its reality is "far
beyond the parameters" of unity and mind (or self, god,
emptiness, nothingness, isness).  With no edges, no
dichotomies, no beginning and end (of course, saying
anything suggests "parameters" - yet we speak).


skye: So the mind exists no matter what we think.  With this
insight that thought has created an illusion of a separate
mind will you really be that much freer to operate
omnipresently within the corporal brain?


d:  More likely, you would not feel invested in the concept
of "operating within a coporeal brain".


skye: Perhaps but a small beginning step only will have been
taken and your "aye more vast than any "I am" or "monadic
being" that you conceptualize yourself to be, may be still a
long way off.


D:  Please let's be careful here.  What hasn't arisen and
can't depart cannot be a "long way off."  Placing it
elsewhere is itself the illusion of separation.


skye: most certainly, after all it is the foundation of
nonduality, dan, silly question :-) Its just that you often
expound as though you are 100% aware of being "That" and
have leapt the lot already and I'm far from convinced that's
all.  Not that it matters what I'm convinced of, of course
:-)


D:  I wouldn't want you to be convinced of a claim I'm not
making, and I have no investment in you believing that I've
leapt the lot, or even half the lot.  In the context of our
discussion, I would view the One that is None as, Itself,
the entire Lot.  There is then no leap and no one to make a
leap.  When we speak here, for me, it is for the joy of
discussing our vision, the wonderment of our ability to use
words that convey energy to and fro, round and round.  Maybe
we can lessen the hold of illusion in the process, who
knows?


_____________________________________________________________________

SKYE AND GENE

gene: I am unsure of others, but my own goal is to clear
obstacles to unassuming clarity.  For me, this means to
state myself, rather than my 'beliefs'.  I am not dogma, I
am me.  [snip] It is in the security of myself, that I
propose to write here.


skye: lovely gene, I see various layers of an inviolate
self, one being a kind of personality matrix not really a
conscious individual but one of the infinite viewpoints
operating within the inviolate self.


Gene: Yes.  In this letter, I deliberately reveal/project
such; that is what I am doing.
Thank you for acknowledging it.  Such personality does
definitely exist, at least as a recurrently evidenced body
of tendencies.  I watch it as it behaves.  Having it around
is similar to having a pet dog.  This agglomeration of
traits is gradually being decommissioned.  I see that most
others also have a similar attached cloud of reaction.
That is why I say below, that 'community is the sharing of
the burden of personality'.


It is useful to be able to point out, or to differentiate
between this cloud of reaction and the one who is real.
Personality behaviour can be embarrassing, and it is defense
of it that causes attachment to become even tighter.
Pants-down in public, is a chance to let go of defense of
personality; that is true 'em-bare-ass-ment'.  Perhaps
humility comes with humiliation.


gene: I note that myself is not an idea, although the idea
of myself does exist as an idea.  I experience myself as an
unseen, unknown (usually!  Not always!) quality.  If anyone
has an idea of what I am, and they do not approve of that,
they my certainly point that out to me, in their own way.


skye: You can bet your life someone will, our personality
matrixes are going to have disapproving and approving ideas
about each other, agreeing or not agreeing till the cows
come home and so we work together here to create an
atmosphere of respect whilst expressing those different
viewpoints.


Gene: Agreed!  Indeed, respect can include the knowledge
that sensitivity to criticism is to be expected, and that
scrutiny is inevitably a two-way street.  Vulnerability to
feeling ashamed seems to be a universal quality.


[snip] Contention occurs around ideas in discussion; it also
occurs around evaluation of other's behavior and the
assumptions behind those evaluations.


skye: something you are most adept at gene!  and I have a
great respect for it.


Gene: Thanks, Skye.  My attempt is to maintain open eyes,
open heart, open mind, open Being.  Militating against this
attempted openess is the immediate contraction which results
from my perceptions of being disrespected or invalidated by
others.  This contraction is something real.
I am not in denial of it.  It is in the moderation of this
contraction, that my work with myself is mainly involved.
Perhaps the most difficult aspect of this work is to
condition myself to overcome the tendency to blame others
for my contractive reaction.


[snip] gene: I have written many of these letters; this is
the first one that I am sending.


skye: but you're kidding aren't you gene!  my archives are
full of this kind of letter from your personality matrix??.


Gene: No Skye, I am not kidding!  Your archives would be 10X
larger if I had sent every such letter that I have written.
So either count yourself fortunate, or mourn the loss of
that much of my pithy insights!


gene: I do not wish to clog the bandwidth with my personal
whinings, especially if I think that I will be seen as some
vast pontificating stuffed shirt, or worse.  (heaven
forbid!)


skye: Oh dearest gene please dont stop or worry how anyone
else sees you, just be yourself and allow others to
pontificate sometimes too ;-)


Gene: Actually, I have few such worries.  And I ask...  by
what means, can I 'disallow' others pontificating?  I myself
indulge in the 'joy of expounding', and I heartily encourage
others to expound.


gene: I ask you...  what is going on with you?  Do you enjoy
the tensions of unexpressed anxiety and fear?


skye: I think we are expressing our tensions quite well.


Gene: Yes, I agree, tensions are being expressed.  What is
the nature of the 'coiled spring', and why does it not
spring into release?  What criteria exists, to inhibit that
uncoiling?  Is it the fear of appearing the fool, of 'having
a personality', or of revealing 'ego' to such an esteemed
body of highly evolved persons?


gene: Why do you tolerate it?  I propose that it is
tolerated, because in their own way, each has a vested
interest in maintaining it.  It serves to 'shake out'
loyalties and provokes side-taking; in that regard, it is
also interesting to note that some will placate, and others
will fan flames.


skye: better to express tensions than get cancerous about it
don't you think and somehow I think you know very well what
sort of faulty upbringing makes us behave unlovingly.  And
that's why we are all here to grow to see from a function of
conscious (enlightenment) which embraces all that unloving
programming, thereby dissolving the need for it.


Gene: I have no objections to expressions of unloving
behaviour, _as long as the game continues_.
It is this opportunity to share not only our best, but our
worst also, which is the possibility of resolution.  That is
why I speak of 'tensions'.  Maintenence of tensions is
different than release of such; sometimes, release requires
actual complete honesty, not just offering what is supposed
to be approvable by some imagined 'gods of correctness'.
This has been my point, but I must say again, that the
benefit occurs only if the game is allowed to continue.
Popping off, trading jibes, implying the inferiority of the
other, are just the first steps toward openess.  Hiding in
the trenches will not do; standing up and walking into
'no-mans land', risking taking hits, and continuing on,
seems to be what is called for.


I have been doing this (via the 'net, and in person) for a
long time.  I have the benefit of having stayed around when
the going gets sticky for me; I have the reward of
continuing to play, even when the game seems really
serious.  If I see that the condemnation of one by another
is designed to push one out of the game, is when I feel like
intervening.
If allowed to continue, it is all grist for the mill.  I
feel that it is our job to allow the mill to continue to
grind; I throw myself into the path of the stones, again and
again, in an attempt to show that the pain is only of short
duration.


We are blessed here to have as members, some of the most
intelligent and compassionate people on Urth.  I would like
to extend invitation to let the process continue.


[snip]

Comment invited.


"Community is the sharing of the burden of personality"


==Gene Poole==


skye: to me it is the celebration of it.  I want it all.


Gene: It is all around; drink deeply!


____________________________________________________________________


GENE

I do not use emoticons (smileys) ever; I prefer to make my
writing so unambiguous that it is understood by most every
reader.


PETROS

I do not use emoticons because I like my writing to be
ambiguous.


JAN

In that case comma spelling out punctuation is even more
ambiguous colon right angle bracket

To an emotico_nono more than 3 neighboring occurrences of a
character, exclamation and question marks are emoticons as
well:
Ohhhhhhhhhhhh Darn!!!!!  Does nothing go right today!?
Translation one: According to statistics, the probability of
any success today has been reduced to almost zero as the
event that just happened, happened to throw a lasting shadow
over the remainder of the day.
Translation of translation one: My mother in law just called
she'll be here in an hour and I don't remember having a
mother in law...


So perhaps Jerry can appoint an emoticonoethics committee to
ponder over the question, if in an example like "Please
answer the following question:
how much is 1+1?" the question mark is ambiguous or not :)))
____________________________________________________________________

ANDREW

The NDS is a loose cluster of stars in intricate orbits
around each other and around their shared centre of
gravity.  Each star has its own colour and character.  (See
Petros off to the left, glowing lurid red?) The orbits of
the stars are influenced by gravity of course, but also by a
strong electromagnetic force, some develop like charges and
repel each other, some develop opposite charges and attract
each other.  From time to time, two or three of the stars
may go into a tight orbit around each other, then fly off
into new orbits.
The charges change over time.  The stars are all of equal
mass, every one is from its own perspective the still centre
around which all the others revolve.  From the point of view
of an outside observer, there is no centre around which they
orbit.

_______________________________________________________________________

The Pathway of Nonduality

by Raphael

Chapter 7

The Three States of Being (continued)


Hiranyagarbha is a plane, a vibratory state or an
existential condition even more extensive than the state of
Virat.  We do not perceive it with out physical senses
because these are only capable of perceiving the Virat
sphere.  When the jiva-entity leaves its gross body -- due
to illness or other reasons -- it moves on to the state of
taijasa which is luminous; luminous because it illumines
itself.  Thus, dreams are illumined by our own light.


The taijasa-entity with its vehicle made of more subtle and
vibrating matter, having, like the dense physical vehicle,
instruuments of contact -- senses and faculties --
experiences life inherent in the universal plane of
Hiranyagarbha.  During physical embodiment,these senses and
faculties belonging to the subtle body are dormant, although
some are able to develop them; in this case we speak of
extrasensory perception.


The sphere of Hiranyagarbha -- as the Virat one -- has many
'environmental levels' where the jiva-entities with their
luminous bodies find opportunities of manifestation.
Particularly on the subtle level what guides the jiva
towards one or the other dimension is its vibratory state,
its 'qualities', its energetic patrimony that it has
qualified in a certain way.


Thus we speak of kamaloka, manavaloka or of Hiranyaloka.
Kamaloka (loka: place in the sense of state) is the
'environmental level' characterized by the quality of
desire-sentiment in all its expressive range.  Manavaloka is
the 'environmental level' characterized by the more
creative, mental, ideal qualities, though still under the
sway of ahamkara, the sense of ego or individualized state.


Hiranyaloka is the 'environmental level' no longer
characterized by individualized qualities but by universal
ones.  It is the sphere of archtypes, or 'Ideas' that do not
belong to the ego, whose sphere is manavaloka, but to the
universal Being.  The soul (jiva) upon its true plane
'contemplates' not its own ideal reflections, but 'Ideas'.


Where do the highest expressions of Genius come from?  The
come from the sphere of Hiranyaloka.  One may say that the
Soul has found its 'homeland' at last, its 'place', its
'home'.  The kama-desire and the manas-empirical mind are no
longer needed upon the Hiranyaloka level; the Soul sees,
contemplates, and immediately comprehends.  Here, to see
means to know (veda in Sanskrit derives from the root vid
which means to see-know).


The kama-desire, being an expression of 'want', of 'lacking'
(not being and not possessing the ego desires), has no cause
to exist as the Soul, although upon its own plane, simply
is.


In dreams everything comes to us.  In dreams we are not in
need of anything.  We only have to project all we desire
within our particular sphere of existence.


But Hiranyaloka, manavaloka, etc., are not dreams as such.
They are equated to dreams only because they are analagous
to them, and analogy is not identity.


Noetic life is fullness of action; in that it is a
reflection of the atman, it possesses the consciousness of
sat, cit, ananda.


"This is the life of the gods, without sorrow and blessed;
evil is nowhere here, and if things had stopped here there
would not have been any evil, only a first and the second
and third goods." (Plotinus, Enneads: I,8,ii)


______________________________________________________________________

"The life of Don Quixote was a life of Zen; indifferent to
the opinions of his fellows, without a single thought of
self, of self-aggrandisement or self-expression.  he Lived
twenty four hours every day, following his instincts (his
ideals) as wholeheartedly, as truly, as naturally, as the
blooming flowers in spring, as the falling of leaves in
autumn."
--Blyth

ZEN IN ENGLISH LITERATURE (1941)


R.H.  BLYTH

Selections from Chapter 14: Don Quixote

Petros commented that Don Quixote is not English literature.
Yes, and Blyth actually admits the impudence of that.  You
gotta like the guy.  So on we go...


...though Don Quixote has taken his place with Hamlet,
Joseph, Robinson Crusoe, Gulliver, Mr.  Pecksniff, and
Alice, his true character is not yet recognised either in
his own country or that of his adoption.  Of the work of
Cervantes more than that of any other, are Goethe's words
true, that a poet has to be taught his own meaning.  The
genius is hardly aware of the significance of his
performance, since so much of it is the God that speaks
through him as a mouthpiece.  In the case of Don Quixote
this is further complicated by the fact that Cervantes, in
the Second Part of Don Quixote, destroys, unconsciously, his
own creation in the First Part.


Not only Don Quixote but Sancho Panza also, is utterly
different in the two parts.  This is to some extent due to
the fact that the Second Part was written (as an
after-thought?) nine years after the first...  In Don
Quixote the importance lies entirely in the character of Don
Quixote, the man himself and his ideals; and the change of
character means that the two Parts are two entirely
different books and are about two entirely different people
of the same name....  In Don Quixote we have ...  sudden
degeneration, the sudden putrefaction before our eyes of a
personality.  The explanation of this apparent
disentigration, this metamorphosis of a butterfly into a
grub is that Cervantes did not himself understand clearly
what he had done in the First Part, what kind of being he
had created.  Cervantes' conscious and uncouscious
intentions in writing the First Part were opposed.
Cervantes tells us ad nauseam that the Romances of Chivalry
were the cause of Quixote's madness.  He seems to have
approved of the burning of them by the curate and the
barber, not on the ground that they made people go on crazy
adventures, but because they were poor as literature, at
once unrealistic and inartistic.
At the end of Part II, Quixote recovers from his madness and
declares:


"I am now enemy of Amadis of Gaul and all his tribe: all the
profane histories of Knight errantry are hateful to me.  I
now realise the danger and peril into which I fell by
reading them.  By mercy of God, I learned by my own
experience, abhor them."


On the other hand, as I shall show later in quotations, the
Don Quixote of the First Part is the quintessence of all the
chivalry of the Romances, all the knighthood of the Middle
Ages, together with spiritual and noble qualities derived
from Cervantes himself.  His madness is partly his idealism
(of which we sane people have so little) partly an
overstrung imagination at the service of this same idealism.
The Don Quixote of Part II is a kind of travelling lecturer,
whose senility is taken advantage of in the most odious way
by a couple of impudent, sophisticated creatures, the Duke
and Duchess.  He analyzes himself and his illusions:


"Doubtless, Senor de Diego de Miranda, you look on me as a
crazy, mad fellow.  And it may well seem so, for my conduct
testifies to this alone.  Yet, for all that, let me tell you
that I am not so crazy and half-witted as you take me for."


and discourses on the probabilities of the veracity of the
romances of chivalry:


"There is much to be said," replied don Quixote, "both for
and against the truth of the romances of Knight Errantry."

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OLD HAG

...extracted from old book from the 70's, Toward The One, by
Pir Vilayat Khan, and was a guide to younger bones while
going through hot three year intensive in late 70's.
Maybe someone here would enjoy, If so, fine.  If not so,
fine, too.


"Is not suffering due to the fact that it is forced upon us?
Suppose we would do consciously what nature does
unconsciously?  Suppose we could offer ourselves willingly
to be molded and buffeted by life?

We are the offering placed on the altar of the World.

If we would sacrifice what we wish most,
we would gain a tremendous freedom.

This is what life asks of us,
the greatest gift of all,
always what we want most,
or ourselves,
or the innermost of ourselves,
our own heart.

It is the acceptance of the unacceptable
that is asked of us.
So, we are tested.
To make evident whether
our heart's treasure is
earthly or heavenly,

There is no Good Friday without an Easter.
No dark night without a dawn,
and no oppression without a release,
and the sacrifice is followed by an outburst
of such moment that it shakes the very
heavens.
The veil of the temple is split,
there is a tremor on earth.

You are resurrecting every time
you overcome yourself."

______________________________________________________________________


The Nonduality Salon Website has been updated:

<a href="http://www.nonduality.com/new.htm">

October 25, 1999

Added Retreat with Francis Lucille, and brief note about
Leonard Jacobson, both by Greg Goode, to the Satsang with
Everyone page.


Added Impermanence to the list of Institutions supporting
nondual teachings.


Added a very good and easy to read version (lots of margin
space!) of the Tao Te Ching (sent-in by M.)


Added the following names to the Realizers/Confessors list:
Abbah Frederic | Madhukar Thompson | Leonard Jacobson |
Prof.  V.  Krishnmurthy | Raphael
_________________________________________________________________

DIANA (with Tim)

Tim: The only thing is, the mind control and manipulation
usually begin AFTER joining the organization.

Diana: I can only say - absolutely not true.  I was
recruited for a cult-like group situation.  If I had had ANY
idea of what the group was really like - i would never have
been interested.

It was a situation of a liceNsed PhD therapist - running a
study group for an international religious/meditation
group.  i still do not know the exact nature of the
religious group - except that they were, at best -
incredibly naive.  At worst - deliberately toxic.

The therapist saw that I was in the middle of a spiritual
awakening, k rising - whatever you want to call it.  He
persuaded me that therapy with him - could help me overcome
obstacles to my growth and development.  I thought it
sounded pretty good:) I was not really familiar with the
term 'dual relationship' - at that point.  I am well aware
of it now:)

He began a six month long 'seduction'.  I was in private
therapy, his meditation group (that he ran for the
international group), and his jungian dream group.  I saw
him 3 times a week.  slowly - all other social activities
fell by the wayside - from sheer lack of time.

He - and the other meditation group members - became my
life.  I WAS in the midst of a spiritual awakening.  It was
my life.  After 6 months and meeting the teacher - the other
shoe dropped.  Major manipulation.  Trance state induction -
w/o permission.  Mind control.  Post hypnotic suggestion.

It took months - for me to realize the full extent of what
was happening.  He was teaching a form of sexual tantra -
during therapy sessions.  If he had started out doing this -
I would have bolted for the door.  But this occurred - 7
months after I began working with him.  The therapy sessions
had always been used for religious instruction anyway.  The
whole premise of my 'therapy' - had been to help me overcome
spiritual obstacles.


I confronted him - of course.  He said he had 'permission' -
for everything. And laughed.  AT me - not with me.  He
laughed at me a lot. In the beginning - i was naive enough
to think he was helping me to 'shed' Ego.  He also said the
teacher had told him to do - what he was doing.  The teacher
- whom i eventually asked - would not confirm this.

If you are a therapist - you may already know the tremendous
- and out of proportion - power a therspit can wield over
clients.  Worst case.  If the therapist chooses to do so.
This man had been active in the local psychological and
metaphysical community.  He seemed well known (and later I
discovered for what:)

Eventually - i noticed that most of his clients seemed to be
females from abusive childhood backgrounds - who seemed just
as cowed - or adoring - as I had once been.  Then it all
became clear.

Also - I discovered that everyone in his meditation group -
was a client. Anyone who did not consent to becoming his
client - he ran off. Although he advertised the group in the
religous section of the local major newspaper.

Finally - I broke away from him.  He pursued harassing me in
the religious group - until I was expelled from it.

I was 42 years old when I met him.  I grew up in the 70's -
and had an 'adventureous' youth - you could politely say.  I
am not a shrinking violet.  I am half-way intelligent.  And
I fell for it.

The only I can figure - I was in a low state due to
continuing problems with my husband.  I felt very
unattractive and undesirable.  I was in the midst of an
enormous life change.  There's a few risk factors for you
right there -

Tim: Those interested in nonduality are not seeking anything
they don't already possess.

Diana: Great logic!  Not true however.  In my case (and in
the case of MANY people - male and female) - a major
kundalini awakening - with no previous knowledge of what
kundalini is - drives out small considerations like duality
- or not.
It is - in a word - overwhelming.  I cannot imagine anyone
being in a more vulnerable and manipulatible position.
Since in our culture we do not normally talk about these
things (not even admit their existence) - if something like
this happens to a person without warning - there IS not
explanation for it.

But there are plenty of folks out there - willing to offer
explanations for it.  Theirs.  "Stay in this group - or you
will lose you knowledge.  It comes from us".  "Do what we
say - or you will lose all connection to your spirituality.
It is coming form us."

Sure - after a while the truth becomes obvious.  But not at
first.  Spiritual development - is too important to be left
undiscussed.  My feeling was - there may be some on this
list (and all lists) - who have not achieved the level of
development you obviously have:) My story - such as it is -
is for them.

Tim:  I don't have much interest, given that if the leader
of a cult (or ANY religious organization that I had not
thoroughly researched)
approached me and offered one million dollars to give that
organization a try for a single month, I would have him
physically ejected from the premises.

Diana: You are not listening Tim!  Cult like groups - do NOT
recruit in that way. First object - would be to become your
very best friend.  Are you interested in having friends?

___________________________________________________________________


TIM

Human societies themselves are cults, in a sense.  Even
society as a whole (globally) is a cult of sorts.  We are
all cultists until the latent freedom within us is
discovered.  Until we allow ourselves to see the prison
bars, then take that major leap to realize that the key to
the cell is sitting in our hand.  And another major leap to
use the key, and take that first faltering step out of our
self-made prisons.


DAN
The Marine Corps, political parties, organized religions
aren't considered cults because they support the mind
control we've all agreed to accept as reality.  They use
charisma, manipulation, images - and find ways to get what
they believe they need from their followers, even to the
point of taking everything at times.

___________________________________________________________________

ANDREW, DAN, AND SKYE

Tai chi sees a difference between energy and force.
Energy comes from the sinews and force from the bones,
according to tai chi theory.  Therefore energy is a property
of the supple, the alive, flexible.  Force is a property of
the hard, the dead, inflexible.  Issuing energy is like
shooting an arrow, the bow and the string derive their power
from their elasticity, their aliveness and suppleness.

andrew
-------------------------------------------
This is true - the physical principles of Tai Chi emphasize
the energy of sinews and flexibility.  Advanced practioners
rely on flow of chi, an energy similar to prana, not
dependent on the physical structure, but flowing through
it.  The chi is used to "stick" to an opponent, moving with
strength when weakness is contacted, retreating when
strength is extended by the opponent.  Balance is
maintained.
The opponent imbalances, resulting in defeat.  It occurs
very quickly and directly, unless two equal practitioners
engage and counter each other effectively.  The principles
of Tai Chi in action are balance, "no mind", grounding, and
flow of chi.
Thus, it is said that "weakness defeats strength," "the
fluid overcomes the solid," "chi [internal energy] overcomes
[external, muscular] force", and one fights without
fighting, moves without moving, acts without doing.

Dan
------------------------------------------------------
amazing energies, i see their psychological equivalent at
the same time. I would love to see spontaneously - this
undivided reflection simultaneously - combined in every
actuality presented to my human viewpoint.

Skye

____________________________________________________________________

DAN AND SKYE

skye:
We experienced intensely departing from our mothers womb and
its been one solidly and separately placed manifestation
after another since then.  From that perspective distance
still rules most of us, illusory or not.  6 billion people
are not coming to the realization that all is conceptual too
easily on this planet.


Dan:
"many are called but few are chosen"
"it is more difficult for a camel to pass through the eye of
a needle than a rich person to enter the Kingdom"
"you cannot serve God and Mammon together"

there's no other way.
there's only the way of total relinquishment, even
relinquishment of relinquishing.
not even "nothing" is left...

I'm not saying this to claim there is a way, or I know the
way.  This is, in my opinion, why Jesus reportedly said, "I
am the way" -- a greatly misinterpreted statement.

--- love ---

___________________________________________________________________

The Mountain Path Vol.  1 - July 1964 - No.  3

Seeing It Simply By Wei Wu Wei

All objectivisation is conceptual, all conceptuality is
inference, and all inference is as empty of truth as a
vacuum is empty of air.  Moreover there is no truth, never
has been and never could be; there is no thus-ness,
such-ness, is-ness, nor anything positive or negative
whatever.  There is just absolute absence of the cognisable,
which is absolute presence of the unthinkable and the
unknowable — which neither is nor is not.  Inferentially
this is said to be an immense and radiant splendour
untrammelled by notions of time and space, and utterly
beyond the dim, reflected sentience of temporal and finite
imagination.


--contributed by Harsha

-------------------------------------------------------

  More Wei Wu Wei (contributed by Bob Bays)


GENESIS

I move, Space becomes (as a result of my movement), Time is
born (as a measure of my movement in space), I have objects
(because I have become the subject of space and time),
Dualism is established, The Universe appears, I identify
myself with my objects (and there are illusory egos), I
suffer illusorily (and suffering becomes universal).


METANOESIS

I repose, Space vanishes (for I have ceased to move), Time
ceases (for there is no movement to measure), There are no
objects (for I am no longer a subject), Dualism is no more,
The Universe disappears, There are no illusory egos, There
is no suffering, I am, but there is no 'me'.


(From "All Else Is Bondage", 1964)

_______________________________________________________________________

The Pathway of Nonduality

by Raphael

Chapter 7

The Three States of Being (concluded)


Prajna is the germinal, causal state, that is, the state
from which the determinations of manifestation arise.  It is
the geometrical point which, while having no dimension, is
the origin of the line and the plane.  It is the noumenon,
it is a germ containing being in all its potentiality.


The entity jiva-prajna manifests itself upon the existential
level of Being, of Isvara; this is the Brahmaloka level, the
abode of Brahma, where multiplicity dissolves into unity.
In it we can see how the three states are but one having
different modes of expression; in it there are no
distinctions, there is no duality, there is no opposition.
He who discovers this condition has the privilege of seeing
the unity of life, of understanding how consciousness has
become so vast as to embrace the whole of existence.  The
entities and the planes are not without but within oneself,
because there is no without and therefore no within.
Oneness 'is', and it is everywhere in its indivisibility.


Prajna is assimilated to deep dreamless sleep, because in
prajna everything goes back to silence, to non-becoming, to
non-motion.  Therefore, waking, dreaming and deep dreamless
sleep correspond to vaisvanara, taijasa and prajna, and as
waking, dreaming and deep sleep are experienced by a sole
witness, so vaisvanara, the gross state, taijasa, the subtle
state and prajna, the germinal state, are all experienced by
one and the same witness (saksin), the only real and
constant factor, while the three states appear and
disappear.  This witness, also called avasthatrayasaksin
(witness of the three states) is a reflection, on the plane
of the manifest, of the transcendent Brahman-atman (the
Fourth) beyond the three states, while at the same time
permeating them.


Q.  Have these states a correspondence with other
traditional Branches?


A.  Yes, according to the Mysterical Tradition, synthesized
by Plotinus, we have three states or dimensions which
represent the realm of the formal and non-formal
manifestation, as well as a fourth called the metaphysical
One, which is beyond the Spirit-Being itself.


In the Corpus Hermeticum (X, 14) it is said:


"All things depend upon a sole principle, and this principle
depends of the One and only [that is, on the One without a
second of the Vedanta tradition].  While the principle is in
movement in order to become the principle again, the One and
only stands still and is not subject to movement."
_________________________________________________________________

JERRY AND JAN

I think it would be cool if the Nonduality movement made it
into the list of cults to watch out for.  Anyway we can push
for that?

Krazy Katz

--------------------------------------------------------------

How about this manifesto:

1.  The holy first doctrine of the One beyond organizing and
disorganizing.
2.  The holy teaching that all authoritarian pyramids have
to be turned topsy-turvy by loyal members, without acting.
3.  The practice of organizing disorganizing in so called
Autonomous Unity Cells.
4.  The recruitment slogan "To lose is to win, Unity Cells
are helpful with the first, then one will seemingly do the
rest".
5.  The holy rule of the thumb that every creature already
is a member, allowing One to remind one of that against
one's will for the sake of one's well-being and the
liquidity of the One beyond solids and liquids.
6.  The koan "I bow to the victorious One of supreme
extremism, conqueror of all -isms"

Jan
___________________________________________________
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I celebrate my self.............


Walt Whitman

(sent by Harsha)
___________________________________________________________________


If you dare to give your heart, your soul, your mind, your
body, and your life, unconditionally, to what you discover
to be true, you will know an infinitely deep and abiding
peace that has never been even a breath away.

This bliss, this tranquility depends on nothing, and It is
not capable of ending.  Furthermore, it doesn't make a bit
of difference what you've ever done...  or not done.  You
can put an end to the battle.  Yes, that's correct, just
walk right out of the war, right now.  All you have to do is
surrender, absolutely and completely, not to me, not to some
authority figure, or some organization or institution, but
surrender only to your own deepest Purity.

God and your own Unbounded Love are not different.  If you
truly give yourself up completely, it will shock your whole
system.  It will suddenly dawn on you,

"Oh my God, what a fool I've been!  What was I thinking?"

Then the absolute insanity of giving yourself to anything
else will become apparent.  Why wait?  Why put off your own
complete and total liberation?  In your innermost and
outermost places, in every single moment, Love waits for you
everywhere.  Is there really something else you would rather
do?  Is it possible that the thing that you fear the most,
the thing that you avoid the most, is what you truly desire
the most?  It cannot abandon you.  Even if you choose to
ignore It, betray It and walk away, It is always closer than
your next breath.  Suspend all opinion and debate, and find
out for yourself.

>From There Is Only Now by Scott Morrison (contributed by
Skye)
___________________________________________________________________

OM SACHA

when you ask the question Who am I?  if you haven't noticed
by now there is no answer.  the answer is that we cannot
find any thought or feeling that is solid.  it
dis-identifies us from the thoughts that keep us stuck to
ideas which have no substance.  it is our ideas that create
us from being open and receptive to what is happening now.
ideas mean, responding to a present situation from a past
experience.  when you enquire, or examine that "to who is
this happening?"  you're left without an answer and if it is
understood rightly, that past response is seen only as that
and it drops immediately.  continue to do it until it gains
enough momentum to burn out all these ideas of oneself, and
then the preparation for awakening is ready.


__________________________________________________________________

PEON

As multitudes of "teachers" "gurus", "Masters"
have said "find a path or way which you are comfortable
with" to no avail to many, I will encourage seekers to seek
a path which is the most un_comfortable.  Diamonds are made
of immense pressure, fine furniture is hewn of rough timber,
etc.  We all know this yet seek the easier path.

Therein lies the cause of failure IMHO, but I am here to
"teach" no one. I was not taught, nor can anyone else be.One
experiences,one does not "learn" this from a book.Books,
retreats, meetings, foot sitting with a Master, etc, lend an
air of respectability to the seeking, but its like Jesus
fussing at the Pharisees and Saddueces......you gotta get
down and get dirty......Jesus dined with the prostitutes and
drank with the winos..they could not accept such behavior
and strung his ass up, I've had alot of people who would
love to string my ass up for what I say, but fortunately
live in the good old USA.
___________________________________________________________________

XAN

I've always been puzzled by our human tendency to decide
that 'how it works for me' must be a universal Right Way,
despite all evidence of our variations upon variations of
personal expression.

I was deeply involved in a powerful community for a few
years where true awakening was going on.  Along with the
real stuff, however, was a generally accepted belief that
this was the only place awakening was actually occuring in
the world and a great deal of fear of leaving was imbedded.
I found myself subject to judgements of the group when I
expressed a different point of view.

Some people even took it upon themselves to walk into other
spiritual groups of various kinds and assertively attack
their flaws in understanding.  I have never been able to
reconcile the level of Self-realization I saw in them, and
in others, with the continued existence of subtle personal
agendas.  I can't resolve this paradox in myself either.

There is no way to convey the profound spiritual, mental and
emotional bonding that can go on in a group like that.  I
still think of those people with the passion of a deep heart
connection though I have no desire to maintain any
relationships there at all.

___________________________________________________________________

SKYE

...reminds me of something i learned when reading 'The
Tibetans' work.  About the variety of families of
consciousness, aspects and rays etc...which he used to
explain the reason why our paths of learning are so
different.  I never found the details as important as what
they basically helped me realize and am still realizing more
each day.  That all the various methods are valid in their
own way.

We seem to have various psychological affinities in this
realm.  Just as substances attract or repulse certain
vibrations in order to manifest in their unique form, so too
human beings seem have psychological affinities.  What may
be a beneficial way for one family of consciousness to learn
is not a consideration at all for another family.

As for my own experience learning is predominately brought
about in a love fest environment (which also keeps my body
healthy) with only occasional bouts of light trauma, but for
my sister the lessons are learned in deepest emotional
trauma, which sometimes feels as though my heart is being
torn from my breast to see her in such pain.

And i often ponder about the shortness of our lives.  Our
Elder's leave the body so early.  Just when they begin to
get the bigger picture and pass the flame, they are gone!!
We live such short dogs years on this plane??....almost not
conducive to enlightenment??  :-(

The whole is the sum of its hearts

__________________________________________________________________

XAN AND DAN

xan:
<snip> With all the changes the Bible has gone through over
the centuries for various religious-political ends, no
telling what was meant in the first place.


D:  And with all the changes everything is going through
from moment to moment, with no end in sight, there's no
telling what any of us meant in the first place, or even if
there is a first place with words.
It's just plain enjoyable watching all the words moving to
and fro, like leaves in the wind, or spirals in the clouds.
Aleks imparted some of this feeling for me in her "word"
poem - quite exhuberent it was

____________________________________________________________________

JAN

1 - "I" = (:)(:)

1 + "I" = _†_
..................................... +
2 = ):(_†_):(
............................... :2
1 = (+:-)       and      "I" = +):-(

----------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps it is just active kundalini.  Or, perhaps it is a
gentle way of helping someone gain insight rather than
bopping them over the head with it, which i have seen, once
in my life *g*

L*L*L
~ Rainbo ~

----------------------------------------------------------------
May I remind you that for instance electronics engineering
(my former profession) does add quite a lot of symbols,
necessary to communicate effectively?  So the above is no
more than a little mensa puzzle aimed at 100 :)

For a nondualist, Kundalini isn't important; surrender,
intuiting and grasping are sufficient as this can lead to
the "first flash".  Kundalini merely effectuates nonduality
(Sat_Cit_Ananda) in mind and body literally: first, by
making conscious of what *hinders* and then, by "burning" it
out.

This has to be understood as a dynamic, autonomous process
that will do
*anything* to continue, be it the production of extra
neurons to enable additional understanding or the
provisions, forcing one to circumambulate the Himalayas
1,000,000 times on bare knees :)) Non-understanding this
"works" just as well and is called Grace.

Knowledge of the chakra system is totally irrelevant,
suggested by the disagreement on for instance the number of
chakras and their colors, as given by different sources.
The analogy: One can drive a car without being a
car-mechanic, one can use the PC without being a programmer
or hardware designer.  Only when a problem arises a mechanic
is required.

What cannot be denied is that regarding one's "human
interface", it is possible not to be conscious of its
behavior like a compass needle moving to the "tunes" of the
magnetic fields resulting from the electrical currents
caused by Kundalini.  To stretch the analogy a bit further,
fields can interact in many ways :)

What has a "beginning" must have an "end"; this is
applicable to Kundalini as well.  When the "end" doesn't
coincide with the death of the body, it leaves the
impossible paradox of Sat_Cit_Ananda and a living body, no
longer subjected to the limitations of the three states or
to feel pain.

Understandably, this paradox which both is and isn't, can
neither be described nor explained.  Yet it is the
foundation of all scriptures.

_____________________________________________________________________

==GENE POOLE==

...self is awareness; awareness is power; and power lives in
space.  The greater the space afforded, the greater the
power that can dwell therein; and the greater the power, the
greater the awareness.

In my reality, power and awareness are interchangable; space
is discovered, granted, and utilized by untrammeled
awareness.  Our discussion is about reclaiming our space, of
taking it out of the hands of others, of having it and being
responsible for it.  This claimed space, is 'awareness
itself', or self (or Self, as preferred).
Having ownership of space, is related (conceptually,
experientially, and energetically) to having actual
effective boundaries.

Seeing and claiming space, is the same as 'growth'; in this
model, awareness is either limited to 'dualistic'
assumptions (relativistic or conditional awareness), or it
is not so-limited.  'Growth' then, is the moving into
greater and greater space.  I can say this: No-one 'needs'
the permission of other, to expand into all available space.

However, in our cultures, it is a matter of permissions; it
is very common to find that one is reluctant to 'usurp' the
space that has already been claimed by dominant
personalities; one has been conditioned to avoid the
conflicts which erupt over the issue of 'who is in charge'.
So the usual result, is that people shy away from such
conflicts, by voluntarily taking-on an identity which is
'good enough'.

I see that we all experience the pain that results from this
socially-mandated _bad agreement_; each in their own way,
struggle with an identity which is the 'embodiment of
submissiveness'.  For one to stand up, to full height, is to
risk being slapped right back down.  Degenerative diseases
commonly occur as a result of the self-limitation which
people take on, to avoid being characterized in an
unpleasant or socially-disadvantaging way.

Power/awareness 'lives in space'; spiritual community (such
as this list) is defined as 'sharing of power'.
Power-sharing includes the necessary permissions to expand
_infinitely_.  Each can help the other, if we can overcome
our culturally conditioned fear of expansion into space.

____________________________________________________________________

ZEN IN ENGLISH LITERATURE (1941)

R.H.  BLYTH

Selections from Chapter 14: Don Quixote

The Don Quixote of the First Part is Zen incarnate, of the
Second, a sententious buffoon.  Sancho Panza also suffers a
complete change.  In the First Part he is the ordinary man,
self-seeking, fond of money, fond of his belly, stupid, a
coward, yet not altogether devoid of some natural Zen and
faith in his master which lifts him, like Babbit, above the
entirly material.  In the Second Part he becomes a just,
benevolent, disinterested, clever judge and faithful
servant, and at times the foolish knave of the First Part,
but disbelieving his master's visions and helping to make a
fool of him.  The Second Part is better writen, it is true;
more cultivated, more urbane.  It is a book.  The First Part
is not a book, it is life itself with its medley of
gentleness and brutality, humour and pain, nobility and
vulgarity, all united by the vision of Don Quixote himself,
into a meaningful whole.  The words of Byron in 'Don Juan',
though devoid of poetical merit, need to be pondered over
once more:

I should be very willing to redress Men's wrongs, and rather
check than punish crimes, Had not Cervantes, in that too
true tale Of Quixote, shown how all such efforts fail.

Of all tales 'tis the saddest -- and more sad, Because it
makes us smile; his hero's right, And still pursues the
right; - to curb the bad His only object, and 'gainst all
odds to fight His guerdon: 'tis his virtue makes him mad!
But his adventures form a sorry sight;-- A sorrier still is
the great moral taught By that real epic unto all who have
thought.

Redressing injury, revenging wrong, To aid the damsel and
destroy the chaff; Opposing singly the united strong, From
foreign yoke to free the helpless native:-- Alas!  must
noblest views, like an old song, Be for mere fancy's sport a
theme creative, A jest, a riddle, Fame through thick and
thin sought!
And Socrates himself but Wisdom's Quixote?

Cervantes smiled Spain's chivalry away; A single laugh
demolish'd the right arm Of his own country;--seldom since
that day Has Spain had heroes.  While Romance could charm,
The world gave ground before that bright array; And
therefore have his volumes done such harm, That all their
glory, as a composition, Was dearly purchased by his land's
perdition.

___________________________________________________________________
Jerry:I think it would be cool if the Nonduality movement
made it into the list of cults to watch out for.  Anyway we
can push for that?

oops! forgot who wrote this reply:
This and the missing posts are the best threads to come
along since Ethyl removed hers (Haines) and chased the
Streaker thru the green beans...

___________________________________________________
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______________________________________________________________________

LARRY

I've been practicing self enquiry.  It's exhausting and I'm
not sleeping well.  What do you do to take a break, or are
you supposed to just keep pushing until something happens?

_____________________________________________________________________

JAN responds to Larry

Give restoring the balance with a healthy workout a try,
like running/sport walking for an hour or so, watching
rhythm of breathing and steps.


____________________________________________________________________

ANDRE (aka OLDE FART) responds to Larry

I would say: keep pushing; but do it without expectations.
Don't become attached to a goal.  That can be the entire
undoing of your effort.

______________________________________________________________________

JERRY responds to Larry

I feel that you could keep 'pushing' until something
happens.  Yes, and you will either stick with it because it
is life and death to you and the only reason you are alive,
and because you have no choice BUT to inquire, or you will
give up the search and find something else to do on the
Internet.


I feel that there could be loss of sleep, discomfort,
frustration, a seeming failure to progress in the course of
all this.  There may be very challenging times.  Therefore,
what Jan suggests is very important.  Also plenty of rest, a
routine in life, good food, and the company of people who
understand, are some of the things you can control and will
need to look after.


Many here went through that type of inquiry alone without
support and came out of it okay.  You should be able to
advance quickly, within three or four months, because of the
people here.  So Larry, keep inquiring and make sure your
life is balanced and hang out with the right people, and
watch what happens.
______________________________________________________________________

DIANA responds to Jerry and Larry

Many Tibetan Buddhist lamas - advise moderation.  You can
push if you want to. And certainly Intent is the key.  But
the Buddha found that purely ascetic methods to awareness -
were not effective.  So - maybe a middle path?

____________________________________________________________________

JERRY responds to Diana and Larry

Yes, intent is the key even when that key seems to fit no
place at all. A person is driven to know, hungry to know,
and that drive is the push. It can be tempered and moderated
and cooled down.  If a person is a follower of Buddha, than
a middle path is appropriate.  I suppose that's the
teaching.  I called for balance in my letter.  However I'm
simply and purely talking to Larry or anyone who is asking
Who am I?
There is only the inquiry, the one asking, the bare
existentiality of it.  That's what I see and I say pursue it
and keep things together by living a balanced life.


_____________________________________________________________________

PEON responds to everyone

Agreed but there is the tale of the student and Sage talking
as they walkled and the student asked "Had badly do I need
to desire Awakening"?

Coming to a river the Sage shoved the students head beneath
the water for a couple moments until he believed he would
drown.

As the student gasped for air the Sage said "That is how
badly you must want Enlightenment",

peon...yet is surrender the key(:~}

__________________________________________________________________

XAN responds to Larry

I'm not sure what you mean by 'pushing' or what exactly you
have been doing in your self-inquiry.  I can share my
experience with you.

When the practice of inquiry is primarily mental, verbal or
located in the head it can be frustrating.  Also an
expectation of something happening can get in your way.  It
becomes a lot simpler when one is willing to just see what
is here in this moment between or beneath thoughts,
sensations and expectations.

A friend once said "What you are looking for is that which
is doing the looking."

For me, the verbal question "Who am I" faded away into just
looking, and then into just feeling.  The less we try, the
more obvious becomes recognition.

There's a book called Relaxing Into Clear Seeing by Arjuna
Nick Ardagh who awakened through self-inquiry also.  Just
the title is a give-away.

____________________________________________________________________

XAN: "Love waits for you everywhere."

ANDRE:  Love is a polarity with hate.
They are a duality.

XAN: Love with no object is our pure and original condition.
I have taken to calling it
*love-for-no-reason*

BRUCE: Actual love has no opposite.
It is literally incomparable.
______________________________________________________________________

HARSHA

Anecdotes of Ramana Maharshi.

Grant Me Salvation, Swami

One afternoon a lady from Kumbhakonam sat near Bhagavan and
exclaimed: "How glad I am that I have met you, Swami.  I
have craved to see you for a long time, Swami.  Not that I
want anything, Swami.  Only please be kind and grant me
salvation, Swami." With that she got up and went away.
Bhagavan had a hearty laugh.  "Look at her - all she wants
is salvation.  Give her salvation, she wants nothing else."
I said: "Is it not what we all want ?"


He replied: "Is salvation something to be handed over on
request ?  Do I keep bundles of salvation concealed about
me, that people should ask me for salvation ?  She said 'I
do not want anything.' If it is sincere, that itself is
salvation.  What is there I can give and what is there they
can take ?"


------------------------------------------------------------------------


ASTA_VAKRA

Thats exactly the point, grace is always there.
When one suddenly becomes aware in presence of Ramana it
appear as if there was direct transmission.
Who or what was being transmitted to whom?
Thats exactly what Ramana says in his reply.
_______________________________________________________________________

JAN

For a nondualist, Kundalini isn't important; surrender,
intuiting and grasping are sufficient as this can lead to
the "first flash".  Kundalini merely effectuates nonduality
(Sat_Cit_Ananda) in mind and body literally:
first, by making conscious of what *hinders* and then, by
"burning" it out. This has to be understood as a dynamic,
autonomous process that will do  *anything* to continue, be
it the production of extra neurons to enable additional
understanding or the provisions, forcing one to
circumambulate the Himalayas 1,000,000 times on bare knees
:)) Non-understanding this "works" just as well and is
called Grace.

Knowledge of the chakra system is totally irrelevant,
suggested by the disagreement on for instance the number of
chakras and their colors, as given by different sources.
The analogy: One can drive a car without being a
car-mechanic, one can use the PC without being a programmer
or hardware designer.  Only when a problem arises a mechanic
is required.

What cannot be denied is that regarding one's "human
interface", it is possible not to be conscious of its
behavior like a compass needle moving to the "tunes" of the
magnetic fields resulting from the electrical currents
caused by Kundalini.  To stretch the analogy a bit further,
fields can interact in many ways :)

What has a "beginning" must have an "end"; this is
applicable to Kundalini as well.  When the "end" doesn't
coincide with the death of the body, it leaves the
impossible paradox of Sat_Cit_Ananda and a living body, no
longer subjected to the limitations of the three states or
to feel pain.
Understandably, this paradox which both is and isn't, can
neither be described nor explained.  Yet it is the
foundation of all scriptures.

_______________________________________________________________________

TIM G.

35 Years ago Now
----------------

I am a foetus in my mother's womb,
Now, 35 years ago.  35 years ago, Now.
Curled up I am, and the error is reversed.
No more ignorance, no more delusion, I reach back;
No more error, no more mistakes, I reach forward;
Love, pure love, takes Me.
Love, pure love, is Me.
I am Gone.

I am not born; the body was stillborn.
My mother had no child;
My brother had no brother.
My sister had no brother.
My father had no son.
My friends do not know Me.
My family has forgotten Me.
My friends never knew Me.
The universe has lost Me.
Eternity has forgotten Me.

Ignorance dissolves; I am Not.
Curled, I vanish into Being.
Now, 35 years ago.  35 years ago, Now.

___________________________________________________________________


SKYE

A belief in heaven or good if *not an obsessional belief*
can be used as a useful framework for "those of us still
mired in comparison" without being in the least bit
sanctimonious.  But a systemized theology of opposites can
be detrimental.


For example if i have a strong belief that all good must be
balanced by evil then i bind myself to a system of thought
that is extremely limiting.  In such a system even good
becomes suspect.  We intellectualize for example that if
there is good there must be evil etc...  and believe these
contrasts to be root assumptions in our reality, but how
deeply are we questioning whether they are purely
superficial distortions and misused intellectual abilities
that wants things explained in neat packages.


Has it prevented an understanding of the facts?  the facts
of inner unity of oneness of interconnections and of
cooperation.  Is this why most of humanity never experiences
harmony and oneness where opposing factors merge.  To me a
belief in good (whilst I still hold beliefs) and that all
existence is blessed, is highly realistic and prepares me to
better understand the nature of reality.

______________________________________________________________________

XAN

Have you run across this cool stuff yet?

<A
HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/nj/AutumnRose523/waterballoon.html">
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TIM HARRIS

Each life a pebble
dropped
in the sea of life.
Each one a song
singing
that can not hear itself
until it reaches
every shore
and then,
returning home
it finds peace.

=====
Gentle Peace.

___________________________________________________________________

TIM GERCHMEZ

"Chimes"

A soft and gentle rain falls.
A strange, thin cloud layer sings in the sky.

Softly, the wind blows.
The sound of wind chimes are heard.

Strangely, the sound is silent.
The absence of E minor chimes.
The absence of A major rings.
Absolute silence chimes
with each non-movement of the hollow tubes.

Silence mingling with the raindrops.
Emptiness blowing in the wind.
Chime after chime, gently, ringing only silence.

The rain falls,
The chimes ring silence.
Nothing is happening.
Nothing has ever happened.
Nothing will ever happen.

___________________________________________________________________

ALEKS

(from the works of Goethe)

the holy longing

tell a wise person, or else keep silent,
because the massman will mock it right away.
i praise what is truly alive,
what longs to be burned to death.

in the calm water of the love-nights,
where you were begotten, where you have begotten,
a strange feeling comes over you
when you see the silent candle burning.

now you are no longer caught
in your obsession with darkness,
and a desire for higher love-making
sweeps you upward.

distance does not make you falter,
no, arriving in magic, flying,
and, finally, insane for the light,
you are the butterfly and you are gone.

and so long as you haven't experienced
this:  to die and so to grow,
you are only a troubled guest
on a dark earth.
--1814

____________________________________________________________________

MELODY

One more tonight from my file of Sandeep's postings:

Once there lived a great artist, a sculptor and painter.
His art was so perfect that when he made a statue of a man,
it was virtually impossible to differentiate the man from
the statue.
It was so lifelike, so alive, so similar.

Comes a seer who tells him that his death is fast
approaching.
Frightened and wishing to avoid death, the sculptor thinks
hard and finally gets a clue for escape.

He made eleven statues of himself and when Death knocked at
his door he stood among the statues, not breathing.

The angel of Death was puzzled, couldn't believe his eyes.
So alike, so same, who to take with him?
It had never happened before, so irregular, God always
creates unique, never duplicates and here 12 of the same.

Worried and nervous, he goes to God and explains the
problem.
God laughs and whispers something in his ear.
"Will it work" asks the nervous Angel of Death.
"Oh yes, I know Man a bit" replies God.

Returning back to the room of 12 statues, the Angel of Death
looks around and addressing no one in particular says
"Everything is perfect except one thing.You have done very
well, only one point was missed.  Only one error."

Immediately the sculptor jumps out " What, what error?"
He the greatest sculptor and error!

The Angel of Death laughs" The only error was that you could
not forget yourself.
Come along chum."

Death is of what we have known about ourselves, what we have
believed ourselves to be, both the mundane definitions as
well as the spiritual definitions mind you.
This bag of knowledge concretised is the ego.
And the spiritual ego is the hardest to see through as it is
more subtle and hence more powerful.

So long the identification is with these definitions, death
is a reality.
Cut the identification and death is a joke.

The sculptor was a caught because he truly could not become
one of the statues, I.e., could not disappear into
non-being.

In zikr

Sandeep
____________________________________________________________________

XAN

I think sometimes I just got to get me a church 'cause I
feel the spirit coming on and just rushing around in me so
strong, I just got to let it out my mouth.  Yessiree.  This
heart of mine wants to jump out of me and run around the
whole place and gather everybody up and sit them down
because I've got something to say.  I've got to say it.
I've just got to.

And maybe you don't want to hear about it, but I really
think your heart wants to hear it.  And maybe you don't like
the way I preach, but I'll tell you something.  In the
deepest heart of you, it doesn't care how I preach or how
the other fellow preaches, because all it wants to hear
about is the plain truth.  And this is just what I've got to
preach about, and deep in the heart of me I don't even care
if you're listening or judging or thinking or something
completely different, because this spirit just comes over me
and jumps out of my mouth.

And this is what I've got to say ...  and this is all I've
got to say.  If you think you are a somebody who did this or
that, and who this and that happened to, well you've just
plumb mistaken.  All those stories you tell about you and
her or you and him or you and them that's all they are.
They're just stories.  Maybe they're good stories with a lot
of adventures in them and maybe they're pretty sad stories
and maybe they're sort of boring stories, but it doesn't
matter at all.  Because once you put down that book or walk
out of that movie or shut your own mouth about it, what are
you then?  What are you when all that talking and
remembering and singing has quit?  Aren't you that Alive
something that was talking and was listening and watching
that whole time?  And aren't you just that same Alive
something that is still here now?

In fact, I'll ask you this.  If it came right down to it and
you had to say what that something is, could you even
rightly call it a Something? Be honest, now.  Could you?
Maybe you're saying 'Well that's just me.' and I would have
to say to you 'Yes ma'am' or 'Yes sir' it is you, but does
that mean it's a Something?  Look real close now, just as
quiet as you can be.

Just as quiet as that mouse they talk about.  And now I bet
you can't tell what you said was something called Me from
what is looking.  Can you now?
Tell the truth.

And this something that isn't really anything you could name
at all how does it feel to look real close?  Closer and so
close that looking just plain quits because there's nothing
there to look at?  But what's it feel like?

Can you get any words together around it that cover the
whole of it?  Oh, I know, sometimes it'll shoot all out like
fireworks and sometimes it'll be as still as a trout fishing
hole.  And sometimes you'll feel like the first time you
fell in love back when it was all pure and happy except you
just can't think who it is you might be in love with.  But
mostly if you keep on there and don't go off wandering
around the world getting into trouble again you'll find out
this Alive something that is nothing just has no end to it
at all. And if you don't go trying to decide what it ain't,
well it'll just keep on showing you more and more of where
it's been hiding at.

It's that kind of something and nothing that just fills up
the whole darn place, like sky except it doesn't even stop
at the top of your head or the bottom of your feet.  And
lord knows there's just no end to the surprises you can get
once you get off of your high horse and down on your knees.

It just makes you wonder how you ever could have gotten
yourself in such a fix that you didn't even know this sweet
beauty was going on all the time.
It's like you played a game of hide and seek with yourself
and you got so much into the hiding part that you feel
asleep in there, like the kids do sometimes.  Then you go
around calling and calling them to dinner.  Once they come
out they're all grumpy and fussy for a while but it's ok
because the game is over and everybody gets to go home.

amen
___________________________________________________________________

JERRY: That was the moment in which Reality was seen.  That
moment, however, is not sufficient.

MIRA: If that moment is not sufficient, then what is...?

JAN: For those not satisfied with seeing a moment of
Reality, perhaps this:
When that moment is the unconditional "NOW", events are
being witnessed as seemingly forming an ongoing movie at the
end of which, nothing really has changed :)

PEON: Maybe my answer is not anyone elses answer and that is
fine, but one moment it would appear changed the life and
future of Jesus, the story of his being in the desert and
confronted by Satan before beginning his ministry, Buddha
had his moment, Whitman "How I lay upon the grass, my heart
stripped bare....." Ospensky, Bucke in a chariot returning
home after an evening dicussing Whitman and Emerson, Dante,
J Krisnumurti relates his single experience, and hundredsof
others who relate a sinlge "moment" as being sufficient to
die and be reborn a new person, free of the attachments and
desires of the one who died.


Yet one moment is not "suficient" for the state of Awakening
need remain a constant in ones life to be of great value.
The knowledge of oneness is IMHO fruit of the experience but
living Enlightenment is not the single experience itself,
anymore than a ticket is flight to elsewhere or an auto is a
trip.


I have seen all too many however confuse feeling with
Enlightenment....as though the Bliss should endure as a
constant.  The same nerve endings and brain cells which
deliver pleasure deliver pain and I would not wish to endure
intense pain as a constant.


Best those Awakened acknowledge such and be on with the
living rather than the regretting less the value be lost,
____________________________________________________________________

JERRY: There is a space, an interval there, at that place
which neither is nor is not.  Everything pours into that
interval eternally.  The knowing, the seeing of that
spilling into the interval, is something of what it is like
to be, what people call, enlightened, if you want to look at
the dynamics of enlightenment.

SYENA:  This is what I call the Gap...The space between
breaths....between thoughts...The stillness....The silence
that is not silent.  As far as I am concerned it is
sufficient to just go there.
Everything comes from there and it all filters out to here.
That is all I know put very simply.  My brain just drained
reading all the words and thoughts and ponderings between
you two.  It was exhausting.  I am not being critical here,
just expressing what it literally did to me.  Now maybe this
comes from my ignorance of what was being said?  But I do
know the essence of it.  I know if not Understand.  I just
wonder what use is it to go round and round and round about
with a finite mind trying to sort out that which is infinite
and unexplainable in limiting terms of speach?  Does not the
experience of that solve the whole shooting match?  Is not
the other just mental masterbation?  Words that have spirit
behind them, that enliven the heart that point the way to
Bliss.....those are recognized by all.  I think you are
grand......Thanks for bringing this out for me to see.
Love and Namaste.

______________________________________________________________________
The Pathway of Nonduality

by Raphael

Chapter 8

Maya

Q.  What is meant by the term maya?


A.  The term has a number of different meanings according to
the points of view of the different Vedantic currents.
Thus, phenomena, prakriti-nature, sakti, avidya, that which
renders possible the impossible, taking one thing for
another, veiling superimposition, etc.  refer all to maya.


Q.  What is meant, for example, by 'veiling
superimposition'?


A.  It means superimposing a thing upon another thus taking
a thing to be something else.  For example, we can
superimpose the colour blue upon the sky which is really
colourless.  We can superimpose the physical body upon the
pure atman so that we fall into the error of considering the
physical body as being absolute and real.  We can
superimpose a 'concept' upon a reality, the nature of which
is different.  In this way we had, for a long time, a
'concept' of matter which we have to rectify.  This implies
that we superimposed an erroneous idea upon the datum called
'matter'.


Superimposition is caused by two factors: the one projective
-- we project with our imagination an idea, a concept, etc.
-- the other veiling, because the projection veils and hides
the reality of the datum.  In fact, the blue colour that we
have projected upon the sky hides the true nature of the
sky, just as the concept of physical body, which we have
projected upon the atman, hides as a result the true nature
of the atman.


Maya is not a real-absolute datum, it does not belong to the
category of tangible objects, it can be recognized by simple
ascertainment.  For example, we might easily take a piece of
rope -- if we saw it lying in a country lane -- to be a
snake; in this case we have superimposed the concept of
'snake', or the image-snake, upon the rope, which is not the
snake.  But on looking more carefully we recognize, or
ascertain, that the snake does not exist and what really
exists is instead a rope.  Who fooled us?  Maya.  From this
standpoint we can say that the 'projection' of the snake is
the outcome of an error of perception, the effect of not
knowing, the fruit of avidya (ignorance concerning the true
nature of a thing).


Q.  What is meant by saying that maya is synonymous with
prakriti-nature?


A.  Prakriti is the equivalent of natura naturans, of
substance, of 'matter' (in a special sense), of the
universal Mother that produces bodies, forms of all
dimensions and degrees.


It is the plastic and eternal substance (as a pole of the
essence) from which all things produced are made.  A
body-form (such as a cloud in the sky or a mineral or
vegetal body) which is born, grows and dies represents a
phenomena; therefore, maya-prakriti is a producer of
phenomena.  All we see around us is phenomenon, it is
maya-prakriti.


This prakriti-matter -- as we now know -- not only undergoes
endless change, but can resolve itself into other grades of
energetic density; mass can resolve itself into energy and
physical energy into subtle, superphysical energy, or into
non-matter.  All bodies and planes of existence are made of
maya-prakriti stuff.  Therefore, maya is synonymous with
prakriti, with phenomenon, with movement-change, since a
body is the result of a particular mayika movement.


Sakti is the name give to nature in movement.


Q.  We are all maya-sakti then?


A.  If the human individual were made of only the physical
body we would be obliged to give a positive answer.  The
dense physical body of man is maya, because it is matter,
phenomenon, movement-change.  It is born, it grows and dies;
it is subject therefore to transformation, change,
dissolution.  This is the conception of the materialist who
considers matter to be the absolute reality.


But for the traditional Philosophy, man is not merely
maya-prakriti, he is also purusha, this is atman, Spirit,
Essence or Being.  We therefore have the polarity
purusha-prakriti; we have Being which through
quantity-substance expresses qualities.  When the purusha
withdraws from its manifest body, this remains inert, void
of intelligence, of will and of self-consciousness.
Intelligence and will, like self-consciousness, are
con-substantial aspects of the purusha, while prakriti-maya
substance is only 'sentient'.  Purusha can detach itself
from its physical body and perceive clearly how its material
instrument is something other than itself.  Moreover, it can
be aware, in an intelligent way, of being able to operate,
manifest and express itself on other existential levels
beyond the dense physical one.


Q.  What does the physical body represent, then, for the
purusha-essence?


A.  A body, at whatever dimensions or level it may be, is an
instrument of contact and of expression capable of operating
upon an existential level of life.  To live and ooperate
upon the dense physical plane, for example, we must have a
body of expression or an instrument capable of establishing
relations with that exitential plane.  However, the body is
only an instrument of contact which can be taken up or
dropped.
______________________________________________________________________

SOME ACTUAL PERSONAL ADS FROM AN ISRAELI NEWSPAPER

Divorced Jewish man, seeks partner to attend shul with,
light shabbos candles, celebrate holidays, build Sukkah
together, attend brisses, bar mitzvahs.  Religion not
important.  PB 658

Sincere rabbinical student, 27.  Enjoys Yom Kippur, Tisha
B'av, Taanis Esther, Tzom Gedaliah, Asarah B'Teves, Shiva
Asar B'Tammuz.  Seeks companion for living life in the
"fast" lane.  POB 90.

Yeshiva bochur, Torah scholar, long beard, payos.  Seeks
same in woman.
POB 43.

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