On the other hand, when you buy bronze coins from southern Spain, be carefull
with forgery patinas becouse they can hide tooled coin, even a 50% legend
remade, or more, and be carefull with shill-bidding. I don't say names but,
maybe, one memeber of this list will speak about forgery coins. No questions,
please. War with forgers is the only way to keep hobby alife.  Regards



Paco



To: Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com
From: desert_rat_57@...
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:16:17 +0000
Subject: [Moneta-L] athenian Dekadrachma triton iso analysis





Surely the external chrystalline structure would be examined visibly to indicate
its age, as I remember it, with silver, the visible external structure changes
with age from the original stamping so modernish fakes wouldn't have this
structural change ???? Am I right on this or is my memory jaded and gone
chrystalline ?   cheers bob

Robert (Bob) Smith

Numbers for England
Mobile  00 44 07505 405 791
Land line 0044 151 281 6978
Spanish number
Tel mobile (00 34)  657578906



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





_________________________________________________________________



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Surely the external chrystalline structure would be examined visibly to indicate
its age, as I remember it, with silver, the visible external structure changes
with age from the original stamping so modernish fakes wouldn't have this
structural change ???? Am I right on this or is my memory jaded and gone
chrystalline ?   cheers bob



Robert (Bob) Smith 


Numbers for England
Mobile  00 44 07505 405 791
Land line 0044 151 281 6978
Spanish number
Tel mobile (00 34)  657578906


 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

One interesting thing about these types is their high relief - given that these
are very large coins, it is unlikely that they could have been struck by hand -
remember the effort our friend in the Antiquanova video had to expend just to
strike ordinary tetradrachms (I think they were tets).
It therefore seems that the dekadrachms must have been struck with a drop hammer
of some sort.

Ross G.

--- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, Robert Kokotailo <robert@...> wrote:
>
> At 11:57 AM 11/23/2009, Bob Lilja wrote:
>
> >It would seem that ancient smelters would not be choosy about the
> >silver from  which they would cast coins, including alien coins
> >which had only bullion value, which would negate identification by
> >isotopic analysis to locate mines.
>
> In spite of some of these coins having been found in hoards from the
> 460's, which some people have taken as proof they were minted in the
> 460's, I only see that as evidence they were still circulating in the
> 460's, but not proof they were minted then.  I suspect these coins
> were minted to pay the 10 drachm dole declared right after large
> silver deposits were discovered outside of Athens some time just
> before 480 BC, which suggest they were minted right around or just
> after 480 BC.
>
> That dole was never paid out as they decided to use the money to
> built a military fleet (Herodotus writes of this), which may explain
> the rarity of that denomination of a few were struck to pay the dole
> and then minting of them stopped with the decision not to pay it.
>
> Athens started mounding major navel campaigns fairly quickly with the
> seige of Eion against the Persians and attach on Skyros, both in 476
> BC. This suggest construction of the fleet started in before 476 BC.
> Athens would have had to buy the wood for these ships elsewhere, most
> likely from sources in Turkey.  If the few dekadrachms that were
> struck were used to help pay for that wood, this might explain why
> nearly of the known specimens are originally from Turkish hoards.
> Again this supports them having been minted prior to 476 BC.
>
> So if they were minted prior to 476 BC, originally to pay the dole
> because of the newly discovered silver deposits, it is highly likely
> where would have been minted from the silver from those deposits.
>
>
> >Modern forgers would have little difficuly obtaining ancient silver.
> >A forger in the U.S. machined a heavy Colt Dragoon out of Civil War
> >railroad tracks, a bit more troublesome than casting.
>
> Not just little difficulty, but rather no difficultly.  A forger
> going to make such a coin could easily acquire a few heavily test cut
> 5th century Athenian tetradrachms for less than a couple of hundred
> dollars each, providing him with perfect alloy that no modern testing
> could say was not correct for early Athenian coins.
>
>
>
> Robert Kokotailo
> Calgary Coin
>
> WEB SITE : http://www.calgarycoin.com
> VCOINS ANCIENT : http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/calgarycoin
> VCOINS MODERN : http://www.vcoins.com/world/calgarycoin
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

At 11:57 AM 11/23/2009, Bob Lilja wrote:

>It would seem that ancient smelters would not be choosy about the
>silver from  which they would cast coins, including alien coins
>which had only bullion value, which would negate identification by
>isotopic analysis to locate mines.

In spite of some of these coins having been found in hoards from the
460's, which some people have taken as proof they were minted in the
460's, I only see that as evidence they were still circulating in the
460's, but not proof they were minted then.  I suspect these coins
were minted to pay the 10 drachm dole declared right after large
silver deposits were discovered outside of Athens some time just
before 480 BC, which suggest they were minted right around or just
after 480 BC.

That dole was never paid out as they decided to use the money to
built a military fleet (Herodotus writes of this), which may explain
the rarity of that denomination of a few were struck to pay the dole
and then minting of them stopped with the decision not to pay it.

Athens started mounding major navel campaigns fairly quickly with the
seige of Eion against the Persians and attach on Skyros, both in 476
BC. This suggest construction of the fleet started in before 476 BC.
Athens would have had to buy the wood for these ships elsewhere, most
likely from sources in Turkey.  If the few dekadrachms that were
struck were used to help pay for that wood, this might explain why
nearly of the known specimens are originally from Turkish hoards.
Again this supports them having been minted prior to 476 BC.

So if they were minted prior to 476 BC, originally to pay the dole
because of the newly discovered silver deposits, it is highly likely
where would have been minted from the silver from those deposits.


>Modern forgers would have little difficuly obtaining ancient silver.
>A forger in the U.S. machined a heavy Colt Dragoon out of Civil War
>railroad tracks, a bit more troublesome than casting.

Not just little difficulty, but rather no difficultly.  A forger
going to make such a coin could easily acquire a few heavily test cut
5th century Athenian tetradrachms for less than a couple of hundred
dollars each, providing him with perfect alloy that no modern testing
could say was not correct for early Athenian coins.



Robert Kokotailo
Calgary Coin

WEB SITE : http://www.calgarycoin.com
VCOINS ANCIENT : http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/calgarycoin
VCOINS MODERN : http://www.vcoins.com/world/calgarycoin


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm with you up to "Caveat Emptor", which is more a rule of thumb than a
principle of law, and seems to be causing much confusion.
A common opinion seems to be that if I have "inspected" a coin, then I can't
return it, because I have accepted it as is, but also that if I haven't
inspected it then I can't return it either, because I should have inspected it.
Both of these cases seem to be cited as instances of Caveat Emptor, and while
they may apply in an English "market overt", I doubt that they apply in an
auction.
As I understand it, in an auction the description is what counts, so that if an
auction coin turns out to be a misdescribed or a fake I can return it, whether I
have "inspected" it or not.
But to return to the main game, you may be right in saying that auctioneers are
not obliged to disclose every adverse rumour concerning a coin's authenticity.

Ross G.



--- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, "snamc9" <ahala@...> wrote:
>
> Dealers are obliged to tell us that the coin is authentically ancient and that
they've the right to sell it, and to give potential buyers a right to inspect
the coins in person. These things are normally stated in the general preamble to
the auction, they don't need to be said on a per-coin basis. If perchance
authenticity or the right-to-sell is in error, and are provable so to a
reasonable degree, then a buyer has reasonable recourse to ask for their money
back.
>
> Dealers are not obliged to tell us various matters of opinion, speculation and
judgement, such as
> - whether in their opinion the coin may be tooled, corroded, plated, or
> - whether someone else has a different judgement about authenticity (who has
the right to set themselves up and give opinions on such matters?? perhaps the
industry-counterfeit organisation that was IBSCC and now the Counterfeit Coin
Bulletin published by ANA/IAPN, but probably no-one else), or
> - whether someone else has a different judgement about ownership or legal
rights (ditto), or
> - whether the coins identification may be different than stated, again a
matter of judgement
> - who the coin was bought from, a matter of commercial confidence
>
> In practice dealers/auctioners usually say a lot more, and provide a lot more
assurance, as a matter of good business practices and nice customer service
rather than obligation.
>
> But, the right of buyers to inspect coins allows a buyer to reach their own
judgements on most such matters. If you choose to buy a coin without assuring
yourself through inspection that it is something you wish to buy, then there is
probably no recourse.
>
> Caveat Emptor.
>
> Analogy: Think of a buyer/seller of a $100,000 (luxury) second-hand car at a
sold-as-seen auction. The buyer is permitted to inspect the car, and the seller
assures the buyer that he can sell the car and that the car is "authentic" (not
for example made of the parts of two wrecks welded in the middle with the
chassis number of a destroyed vehicle). The buyer pays and drives away the car
without bothering to inspect it, nor to ask anyone to inspect, nor to see
whether it is reasonable value, nor to open either the trunk or bonnet, nor to
check the tire treads, nor see what the engine sounds like, nor to look whether
it is leaking oil or has rust.  The seller warrants a right-to-sell and
authenticity. Documents signed, money and keys change hands. The car makes it
out of the lot and all the way home. Next day the car doesn't start.
>
> Most of us would think "idiot buyer". Why does the situation change because it
is a $100,000 coin rather than $100,000 car? Why do we feel a need to be nannied
and cosseted and protected when the subject is a coin, but not a care.
>
> As a matter of good business practices and in the interest of fostering great
future customer relations, coin sellers usually offer a lot more. But that's a
commercial decision and not through obligation.
>
> And buyers should protect themselves through gaining expertise over time.
Become like a car mechanic, and know what you are buying.
>
> Andrew McCabe
>
> --- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, "glebe_au" <rossg@> wrote:
> >
> > Actually, I see I'm probably reading too much into DW's comments, but the
general question still remains, i.e, are auctioneers obliged to tell us
everything they know, good or bad, or do we have to employ private investigators
for every major purchase?
> >
> > Ross G.
> >
>

Good evening, Zach/List

Yes, I suppose that I mean that...

Bad times for collectors...   :-(

Lluís


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Beast Coins
   To: Lluís Mendieta <lmendi@...>, <Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com>
   Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 10:20 PM
   Subject: Re: [Moneta-L] Re: Smederova "Hoard"


   Hello Lluís,

   You mean, like the Venetian pieces I'm researching right now that are suspect?

   http://ancients.info/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2792

   --Beast

   **************************
   Beast Coins Store:  www.vcoins.com/beastcoins
   Beast Coins Quarterly Auctions:
http://www.icollector.com/Beast-Coins-LLC_ae1193
   Beast Coins Research: www.beastcoins.com
   VAuctions:
http://www.vauctions.com/auctions/Collection.asp?collection=Beasley%20Campgate


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   From: "Lluís Mendieta" <lmendi@...>
   Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 3:16 PM
   To: Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: Re: [Moneta-L] Re: Smederova "Hoard"

   Hi, Ross/List

   I suppose that I am the bad news bringer, but the ones that are exposed are
the ones that are exposed.
   How many more are not exposed?
   Think in the Geneva forgeries.....

   And, eventually, return for fakes is far higher than any you could obtain in a
honourable job/deal....
   So.... :-(


   With best wishes

   Lluís



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Lluís,

You mean, like the Venetian pieces I'm researching right now that are suspect?

http://ancients.info/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2792

--Beast

**************************
Beast Coins Store:  www.vcoins.com/beastcoins
Beast Coins Quarterly Auctions: http://www.icollector.com/Beast-Coins-LLC_ae1193
Beast Coins Research: www.beastcoins.com
VAuctions:
http://www.vauctions.com/auctions/Collection.asp?collection=Beasley%20Campgate

----------------------------------------

From: "Lluís Mendieta" <lmendi@...>
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 3:16 PM
To: Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Moneta-L] Re: Smederova "Hoard"

Hi, Ross/List

I suppose that I am the bad news bringer, but the ones that are exposed are the
ones that are exposed.
How many more are not exposed?
Think in the Geneva forgeries.....

And, eventually, return for fakes is far higher than any you could obtain in a
honourable job/deal....
So.... :-(

With best wishes

Lluís




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

As convincing as the coins look in photographs they are not as dangerous in
hand.  I think most collectors will think they are fake when they have them
in their hands.  they don't "feel" right.

Matt

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Lluís Mendieta <lmendi@...> wrote:

>
>
> Hi, Ross/List
>
> I suppose that I am the bad news bringer, but the ones that are exposed are
> the ones that are exposed.
> How many more are not exposed?
> Think in the Geneva forgeries.....
>
> And, eventually, return for fakes is far higher than any you could obtain
> in a honourable job/deal....
> So.... :-(
>
> With best wishes
>
> Lluís
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: glebe_au
> To: Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com <Moneta-L%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:56 PM
> Subject: [Moneta-L] Re: Smederova "Hoard"
>
> Very convincing patinas, and quite different from the recent "Serbian"
> fakes of similar types.
> I'm continuously amazed at the widespread practice of forging the commonest
> of coins. It seems a large amount of effort for very meager returns,
> particularly as the fakes are usually quickly exposed.
>
> Ross G.
>
> --- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com <Moneta-L%40yahoogroups.com>, Matthew
> Richter <mrichter2000@...> wrote:
> >
> > I was one of the people "stung" by the sale of the modern forgeries
> called
> > the Smederova "Hoard." The seller did offer me my money back but, after
> > some discussion, I did agree to keep the coins at what he claimed was his
> > cost. The coins that I received are now all listed on Tantalus. For those
> > interested in seeing them or looking at specific details, such as size
> and
> > weight, I have placed them all in a gallery. You can view them here:
> >
> > http://www.tantaluscoins.com/browse.php?gallery=33
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Matt
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi, Ross/List

I suppose that I am the bad news bringer, but the ones that are exposed are the
ones that are exposed.
How many more are not exposed?
Think in the Geneva forgeries.....

And, eventually, return for fakes is far higher than any you could obtain in a
honourable job/deal....
So....  :-(


With best wishes

Lluís
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: glebe_au
   To: Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:56 PM
   Subject: [Moneta-L] Re: Smederova "Hoard"



   Very convincing patinas, and quite different from the recent "Serbian" fakes
of similar types.
   I'm continuously amazed at the widespread practice of forging the commonest of
coins. It seems a large amount of effort for very meager returns, particularly
as the fakes are usually quickly exposed.

   Ross G.

   --- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Richter <mrichter2000@...> wrote:
   >
   > I was one of the people "stung" by the sale of the modern forgeries called
   > the Smederova "Hoard." The seller did offer me my money back but, after
   > some discussion, I did agree to keep the coins at what he claimed was his
   > cost. The coins that I received are now all listed on Tantalus. For those
   > interested in seeing them or looking at specific details, such as size and
   > weight, I have placed them all in a gallery. You can view them here:
   >
   > http://www.tantaluscoins.com/browse.php?gallery=33
   >
   > Regards,
   >
   > Matt
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Very convincing patinas, and quite different from the recent "Serbian" fakes of
similar types.
I'm continuously amazed at the widespread practice of forging the commonest of
coins. It seems a large amount of effort for very meager returns, particularly
as the fakes are usually quickly exposed.

Ross G.

--- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Richter <mrichter2000@...> wrote:
>
> I was one of the people "stung" by the sale of the modern forgeries called
> the Smederova "Hoard."  The seller did offer me my money back but, after
> some discussion,  I did agree to keep the coins at what he claimed was his
> cost.  The coins that I received are now all listed on Tantalus.  For those
> interested in seeing them or looking at specific details, such as size and
> weight, I have placed them all in a gallery.  You can view them here:
>
> http://www.tantaluscoins.com/browse.php?gallery=33
>
> Regards,
>
> Matt
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Matt,

I documented this fake hoard back in August:

http://ancients.info/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2671

Best regards,

--Beast

**************************
Beast Coins Store:  www.vcoins.com/beastcoins
Beast Coins Quarterly Auctions:
http://www.icollector.com/Beast-Coins-LLC_ae1193
Beast Coins Research: www.beastcoins.com
VAuctions:
http://www.vauctions.com/auctions/Collection.asp?collection=Beasley%20Campga
te

----------------------------------------

From: "Matthew Richter" <mrichter2000@...>
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 2:44 PM
To: "ancientpeddler" <AncientPeddler@yahoogroups.com>, "moneta-l"
<Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Moneta-L] Smederova "Hoard"

I was one of the people "stung" by the sale of the modern forgeries called
the Smederova "Hoard." The seller did offer me my money back but, after
some discussion, I did agree to keep the coins at what he claimed was his
cost. The coins that I received are now all listed on Tantalus. For those
interested in seeing them or looking at specific details, such as size and
weight, I have placed them all in a gallery. You can view them here:

http://www.tantaluscoins.com/browse.php?gallery=33

Regards,

Matt




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I was one of the people "stung" by the sale of the modern forgeries called
the Smederova "Hoard."  The seller did offer me my money back but, after
some discussion,  I did agree to keep the coins at what he claimed was his
cost.  The coins that I received are now all listed on Tantalus.  For those
interested in seeing them or looking at specific details, such as size and
weight, I have placed them all in a gallery.  You can view them here:

http://www.tantaluscoins.com/browse.php?gallery=33

Regards,

Matt


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, "Sean Parry" <sean@...> wrote:
>
> Furthermore here in the UK, nothing is signed for on delivery if it
> has entered the country from overseas. I thought that people might
> care to bear this in mind, for what it is worth.

??? I don't think this is factually true and I think it best to clarify it
before US sellers get worried.

All registered mail that enters the UK from overseas requires a signature on
delivery to me. That's what "registered" implies. Indeed that applies whether
the destination is the UK or various other countries I've lived in.

Perhaps you intended to make a different point.

Andrew McCabe

Dealers are obliged to tell us that the coin is authentically ancient and that
they've the right to sell it, and to give potential buyers a right to inspect
the coins in person. These things are normally stated in the general preamble to
the auction, they don't need to be said on a per-coin basis. If perchance
authenticity or the right-to-sell is in error, and are provable so to a
reasonable degree, then a buyer has reasonable recourse to ask for their money
back.

Dealers are not obliged to tell us various matters of opinion, speculation and
judgement, such as
- whether in their opinion the coin may be tooled, corroded, plated, or
- whether someone else has a different judgement about authenticity (who has the
right to set themselves up and give opinions on such matters?? perhaps the
industry-counterfeit organisation that was IBSCC and now the Counterfeit Coin
Bulletin published by ANA/IAPN, but probably no-one else), or
- whether someone else has a different judgement about ownership or legal rights
(ditto), or
- whether the coins identification may be different than stated, again a matter
of judgement
- who the coin was bought from, a matter of commercial confidence

In practice dealers/auctioners usually say a lot more, and provide a lot more
assurance, as a matter of good business practices and nice customer service
rather than obligation.

But, the right of buyers to inspect coins allows a buyer to reach their own
judgements on most such matters. If you choose to buy a coin without assuring
yourself through inspection that it is something you wish to buy, then there is
probably no recourse.

Caveat Emptor.

Analogy: Think of a buyer/seller of a $100,000 (luxury) second-hand car at a
sold-as-seen auction. The buyer is permitted to inspect the car, and the seller
assures the buyer that he can sell the car and that the car is "authentic" (not
for example made of the parts of two wrecks welded in the middle with the
chassis number of a destroyed vehicle). The buyer pays and drives away the car
without bothering to inspect it, nor to ask anyone to inspect, nor to see
whether it is reasonable value, nor to open either the trunk or bonnet, nor to
check the tire treads, nor see what the engine sounds like, nor to look whether
it is leaking oil or has rust.  The seller warrants a right-to-sell and
authenticity. Documents signed, money and keys change hands. The car makes it
out of the lot and all the way home. Next day the car doesn't start.

Most of us would think "idiot buyer". Why does the situation change because it
is a $100,000 coin rather than $100,000 car? Why do we feel a need to be nannied
and cosseted and protected when the subject is a coin, but not a care.

As a matter of good business practices and in the interest of fostering great
future customer relations, coin sellers usually offer a lot more. But that's a
commercial decision and not through obligation.

And buyers should protect themselves through gaining expertise over time. Become
like a car mechanic, and know what you are buying.

Andrew McCabe

--- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, "glebe_au" <rossg@...> wrote:
>
> Actually, I see I'm probably reading too much into DW's comments, but the
general question still remains, i.e, are auctioneers obliged to tell us
everything they know, good or bad, or do we have to employ private investigators
for every major purchase?
>
> Ross G.
>

As I understand it nothing is in fact insured at all after it crosses any
international boarder. Furthermore here in the UK, nothing is signed for on
delivery if it has entered the county from overseas. I thought that people might
care to bear this in mind, for what it is worth.

All the best

Sean Parry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It would seem that ancient smelters would not be choosy about the silver from 
which they would cast coins, including alien coins which had only bullion value,
which would negate identification by isotopic analysis to locate mines.



Modern forgers would have little difficuly obtaining ancient silver. A forger in
the U.S. machined a heavy Colt Dragoon out of Civil War railroad tracks, a bit
more troublesome than casting.





To: Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com
From: lmendi@...
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 21:46:51 +0100
Subject: Re: [Moneta-L] Re: Athenian Dekadrachm in Triton XIII - isotopic
analysis





Dear Ross

You are completely right!

I see the deka with interest
-If legit, Turkey could ask for the item, and buyer loss the money
-If fake, buyer loss the money

A double looser, I fear...

Incidentally, the Sikh Empire Mohur offered by CNG in same auction is also an
unsold from another auction and also doubted to be legit....(myself being one:
lettering is as has been done by anyone that does not know farsi, leaf is
odd,...)

Sad times

With best wishes

Lluís
----- Original Message -----
From: glebe_au
To: Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 9:21 PM
Subject: [Moneta-L] Re: Athenian Dekadrachm in Triton XIII - isotopic analysis

You're right, but I think I made most of those points myself.
Let's not get distracted from the main game here, which is that expensive coins
are almost invariably offered with no real information as to their authenticity
or legal status.

Ross G.

--- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, Witschonke Rick <rickwitschonke@...> wrote:
>
> Ross:
>
> It would be helpful if you describe exactly what technique you have in mind.Â
>
> I know of no non-destructive technique which could distinguish isotopes, nor
do I understand how "modern" isotopes would differ from "ancient".Â
>
> XRF is of limited use since it does not penetrate below the surface of a
coin. There are other techniques, such as neutron activation, which do
penetrate, but they are very expensive, and leave the coin radioactive for
several months.Â
>
> And then there is Andrew's point that few ancient coinages are made solely
from metal from a single mine. I have heard of attempts to distinguish coinages
based on trace element analysis, but never based on isotopes. Is there some
literature that you can cite?
>
> And finally, I can assure you that forgers of $100,000+ coins use contemporary
ancient coins as flans, which would defeat any metallurgical analysis.Â
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rick Witschonke
>
>
>
> --- On Sun, 11/22/09, glebe_au <rossg@...> wrote:
>
> From: glebe_au <rossg@...>
> Subject: [Moneta-L] Re: Athenian Dekadrachm in Triton XIII - isotopic analysis
> To: Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 3:48 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The point of isotopic analysis is to distingish a real ancient alloy from a
modern alloy mixed to simulate it.
>
> But actually, now that I think about it, while we can use nondestructive
techniques like X-ray fluorescence to determine the composition of a coin in
terms of the metallic elements involved, I'm not sure that these techniques are
sensitive enough to separate the isotopes of each element.
>
> Even so, just the gross elemental composition can tell us a lot, and certainly
expose the simpler frauds. In high value cases where doubt is involved the
composition would seem to be almost mandatory if the seller (and auctioneer)
wants to get the best price.
>
>
>
> Ross G.
>
>
>
> --- In Moneta-L@yahoogroup s.com, "snamc9" <ahala@> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > I have to assume that those who buy $100,000 or $500,000 coins know enough
of the coins types to check out the history and provenance; CNG probably assume
that, and consider that the catalogue is probably not the best place for such a
discussion which would remain with the coins history for the next hundreds of
years. Furthermore since they are offering the coin as genuine they are unlikely
to include a discussions along the lines of "why we think this coin is genuine
despite some vague gossip on the street". These discussions can well take place
behind the scenes. I have no opinion one way or another on the coin itself but
very much doubt CNG have overlooked its history or did not consider all the ways
in which they could determine its authenticity.
>
> >
>
> > You raise, not for the first time on list, isotopic analysis, one previous
time in regard to a coin with old provenance (Trident Chickens Aes Signatum bar
of this type http://www.flickr. com/photos/ ahala_rome/ 4064275559 ) where there
was no reason to doubt the coin other than it being expensive. I'm sure it's a
reliable technique, but I have not heard of isotopic analysis being routinely
used to help prove the authenticity of coins where the only factor of doubt is
that they are expensive. I'm not aware of any auction house that publishes
istope analysis information so I'm guessing there may be a reason. Perhaps it is
neither so easy nor decisive? I don't know, but I do recall listening to a talk
at the INC congress in Glasgow which said that one huge problem with any metal
analysis on ancient coins is that most ancient coins were mostly made from
melting down other ancient metal objects or other coins, and where that was not
the case, from metal
> sources that varied widely; there may be exceptional cases where coins are
known to be made from single-mine metals but it is not the general run of
affairs.
>
> >
>
> > Andrew McCabe
>
> >
>
> > --- In Moneta-L@yahoogroup s.com, "glebe_au" <rossg@> wrote:
>
> > >
>
> > > I notice that the ex-Baldwin Athenian Dekadrachm is now offered in Triton
XIII, with an estimate of US$100,000:
>
> > >
>
> > > http://www.cngcoins .com/Coin. aspx?CoinID= 152921
>
> > >
>
> > > Given that there have been doubts expressed in the past as to the
authenticity of this coin (which didn't sell at the Baldwin auction) you might
think that some effort might have been made to settle those doubts.
>
> > > In any case in this day and age I would expect at least a complete history
and provenance for a coin like this, which should be possible if the coin is
genuine, and the seller has proper legal title.
>
> > > Further I would also want an expert opinion on the coin, including a
physical forensic report. The latter should include an isotopic analysis of the
metal, which would at least give us a guide as whether the alloy used was
genuinely antique (although of course for $100,000 I would be prepared to melt
down a few old tets).
>
> > > Such reports might cost a little, but would (if favourable) add a lot to
the sale price.
>
> > > Instead we are given no information of any significance at all, so it will
be interesting to see whether this coin will sell, and if so, at what price.
>
> > > In fact, the price estimate for the current coin is very interesting,
considering that another example in Triton X sold (apparently) for the nice
round hammer price of $500,000 (check it out on CNG) - now the current coin has
a large die flaw, but is it worth $400,000?.
>
> > >
>
> > > Ross Glanfield
>
> > >
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul,



I use first class mail as a standard base and go from there.  Unless you get
private insurance which is very expensive and not worthwhile, you can only
get insurance with registered mail, with a limited coverage up to about $45
depending on country.  The low value makes it not really worth it.  I make
it clear to my customers that coins cannot be insured overseas, but if they
wish they can opt to pay for registered mail which is more secure but still
not insured over the $45 limit.  If your coin values are high enough, you
can use Fedex, UPS or other services which can include insurance, but much
more expensive.



Ken



+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Kenneth W. Dorney

Classical Numismatist

Since 1988

http://www.coolcoins.com



From: Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Rev Paul Bulgerin
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 10:19 AM
To: Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com; AncientPeddler@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Moneta-L] Mailing Coins Overseas from the US





I've started selling some coins on eBay and am trying to learn how to do
things properly. I have a question about mailing coins overseas from the US.
The postmaster at our local post office has told me I have two options;
first class international air mail at 98 cents per ounce or registered which
runs between $11-13.

I've also been informed that insuring anything cost about $20.

How do others ship coins overseas? I'd like to know better how this is done
and wonder if there are other options of which my postmaster is not aware.
(He told me initially that I could not ship coins overseas! I had to explain
that what I was shipping was a collectible coin and not currency.)

Thank You,

Paul Bulgerin
bulgerin@... <mailto:bulgerin%40sbcglobal.net>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've started selling some coins on eBay and am trying to learn how to do things
properly.  I have a question about mailing coins overseas from the US.  The
postmaster at our local post office has told me I have two options; first class
international air mail at 98 cents per ounce or registered which runs between
$11-13.

I've also been informed that insuring anything cost about $20.

How do others ship coins overseas?  I'd like to know better how this is done and
wonder if there are other options of which my postmaster is not aware.  (He told
me initially that I could not ship coins overseas!  I had to explain that what I
was shipping was a collectible coin and not currency.)

Thank You,

Paul Bulgerin
bulgerin@...

Actually, I see I'm probably reading too much into DW's comments, but the
general question still remains, i.e, are auctioneers obliged to tell us
everything they know, good or bad, or do we have to employ private investigators
for every major purchase?

Ross G.

--- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, "glebe_au" <rossg@...> wrote:
>
> So auctioneers aren't obliged to tell us about problems with a coin  until we
ask them?
> Is that what you mean by doing a fine job?
>
> Ross G.
>
>
>
> --- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, "thewolfsus" <megagem@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, "glebe_au" <rossg@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'll let you know (nobody else though).
> > > But more seriously, are you suggesting that caveat emptor is (or should
be) the rule at auctions?
> >
> > I wrote exactly what I meant but since you ask, caveat emptor is always the
rule all the time for everything - it's been in all the papers (maybe buried in
the fine print :)  In the case of a $100,000 item it would be prudent to do
one's homework before to avoid the unpleasantness of seeking recourse after.
> >
> > > As agents, auctioneers don't have to have to guarantee title, but aren't
they obliged to disclose all material facts about an item known to them? Maybe
someone can enlighten us as to the duties of an auctioneer in this regard.
> >
> > I'd bet a nickel they do exactly as their legal counsel advise and that big
reputable outfits adhere to applicable laws.  Not being trained in the law I
have no idea precisely what those laws require.
> >
> > All that said, by and large they do a fine job.
> >
> > DW
> >
> >
> > > Ross G.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, "thewolfsus" <megagem@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, "glebe_au" <rossg@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Why should I have to ask? ...
> > > >
> > > > Probably helps weed out us lookie-loos :)
> > > >
> > > > For a $100,000 item I'd probably hop right on my Gulfstream and jet out
to see it up close and have a nice conversation over coffee with the auction
company's experts and my legal counsel.  Imho, it's my responsibility to do my
homework before bidding on any item in any auction.
> > > >
> > > > If someone feels the information published in an auction catalog isn't
satisfactory and doesn't wish to inquire further, that's OK with me.  Anyone who
is in serious doubt shouldn't bid.
> > > >
> > > > If you do inquire please post here what you learn about the coin.
> > > >
> > > > DW
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

So auctioneers aren't obliged to tell us about problems with a coin  until we
ask them?
Is that what you mean by doing a fine job?

Ross G.



--- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, "thewolfsus" <megagem@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, "glebe_au" <rossg@> wrote:
> >
> > I'll let you know (nobody else though).
> > But more seriously, are you suggesting that caveat emptor is (or should be)
the rule at auctions?
>
> I wrote exactly what I meant but since you ask, caveat emptor is always the
rule all the time for everything - it's been in all the papers (maybe buried in
the fine print :)  In the case of a $100,000 item it would be prudent to do
one's homework before to avoid the unpleasantness of seeking recourse after.
>
> > As agents, auctioneers don't have to have to guarantee title, but aren't
they obliged to disclose all material facts about an item known to them? Maybe
someone can enlighten us as to the duties of an auctioneer in this regard.
>
> I'd bet a nickel they do exactly as their legal counsel advise and that big
reputable outfits adhere to applicable laws.  Not being trained in the law I
have no idea precisely what those laws require.
>
> All that said, by and large they do a fine job.
>
> DW
>
>
> > Ross G.
> >
> >
> > --- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, "thewolfsus" <megagem@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, "glebe_au" <rossg@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Why should I have to ask? ...
> > >
> > > Probably helps weed out us lookie-loos :)
> > >
> > > For a $100,000 item I'd probably hop right on my Gulfstream and jet out to
see it up close and have a nice conversation over coffee with the auction
company's experts and my legal counsel.  Imho, it's my responsibility to do my
homework before bidding on any item in any auction.
> > >
> > > If someone feels the information published in an auction catalog isn't
satisfactory and doesn't wish to inquire further, that's OK with me.  Anyone who
is in serious doubt shouldn't bid.
> > >
> > > If you do inquire please post here what you learn about the coin.
> > >
> > > DW
> > >
> >
>

If anyone is collecting Roman Republican denarii engravers' errors, have a
look at www.numismaticaherrero.com -- Herrero's Madrid auction, 10
December 2009, p.22 lot 138

Ted Buttrey

--- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, "glebe_au" <rossg@...> wrote:
>
> I'll let you know (nobody else though).
> But more seriously, are you suggesting that caveat emptor is (or should be)
the rule at auctions?

I wrote exactly what I meant but since you ask, caveat emptor is always the rule
all the time for everything - it's been in all the papers (maybe buried in the
fine print :)  In the case of a $100,000 item it would be prudent to do one's
homework before to avoid the unpleasantness of seeking recourse after.

> As agents, auctioneers don't have to have to guarantee title, but aren't they
obliged to disclose all material facts about an item known to them? Maybe
someone can enlighten us as to the duties of an auctioneer in this regard.

I'd bet a nickel they do exactly as their legal counsel advise and that big
reputable outfits adhere to applicable laws.  Not being trained in the law I
have no idea precisely what those laws require.

All that said, by and large they do a fine job.

DW


> Ross G.
>
>
> --- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, "thewolfsus" <megagem@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > --- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, "glebe_au" <rossg@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Why should I have to ask? ...
> >
> > Probably helps weed out us lookie-loos :)
> >
> > For a $100,000 item I'd probably hop right on my Gulfstream and jet out to
see it up close and have a nice conversation over coffee with the auction
company's experts and my legal counsel.  Imho, it's my responsibility to do my
homework before bidding on any item in any auction.
> >
> > If someone feels the information published in an auction catalog isn't
satisfactory and doesn't wish to inquire further, that's OK with me.  Anyone who
is in serious doubt shouldn't bid.
> >
> > If you do inquire please post here what you learn about the coin.
> >
> > DW
> >
>

"If dealers were to suddenly stop existing, I think collectors and their heirs
would be able to adapt fairly easily to the situation"
 
Hmmm . . .
 
Adapt?  Perhaps.  Thrive?  No. 
 
Let me suggest that ancient coins, like many commodities, need various sources
bringing them to the attention of potential consumers, including reputable,
professional dealers.  While I might have a passing interest in ancient coins,
I would not be nearly as interested in them as I am without the incredible
assistance, guidance, information, etc., provided by knowledgeable dealers
through the years.  While I've read a lot of books about them, the most
valuable information I've learned about ancient coins was gained in two
places: one, groups such as this; and, two, cruising the aisles at coin
shows.  There's no place like a coin show for comparing one vendor's wares to
another's, talking about the good and bad points of various coins, examining
them under a loop, listening to various discussions about this or that emperor
and why one's issues are more rare/valuable/desirable than some other
emperor's, etc.  I've met very few dealers unwilling
  to share of their time and expertise with anyone who truly wants to learn
something about ancient coins.  And where would we be without professional
dealers willing to put their reputations behind a guarantee of authenticity of
that special coin you might need to complete your series of second century
spouses?  While we might adjust, without knowledgeable dealers the industry,
and yes that includes us hobbyists, would not be the robust, rich community we
now enjoy.
 
To quote Dennis Miller, "that's just my opinion, I could be wrong."  (Stage
note: speaker steps down from his soap box and exits stage right.)
 
--- On Sat, 11/21/09, E. Watts <bannatum@...> wrote:


From: E. Watts <bannatum@...>
Subject: [Moneta-L] Re: impressive gains in rare coins
To: Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 11:51 AM


 



> we all need dealers to effect the movement of coins from one
>collection to another.

That has never been entirely true, and it has become markedly less
true as the ability of collectors to sell directly to one another has
increased substantially with online methods of contact between
collectors (I'm assuming you don't consider a collector or his heirs
selling his collection to be a dealer).

You may prefer to use dealers for the benefits they offer (guarantees
of authenticity, professional service, ready availability of various
coins, etc.), but they are becoming less and less necessary for
moving coins from collection to collection, tho they are unlikely to
become extinct anytime soon. If dealers were to suddenly stop
existing, I think collectors and their heirs would be able to adapt
fairly easily to the situation and coins would continue to move,
although perhaps at a slower rate than currently without the drive to
make a profit that is the seller's primary income.
--

Ted

------------ -
| Be Seeing You |
------------ -











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello All,
A quick note to mention that my "John Q Adams collection" Sasanian
drachm is sold.
The Appolonia Pontica drachm from the same Heritage sale, "JQA
collection" is still available.
I can be reached off-group at woodsharter@...  if anyone wants
more details.
Thanks to all that took the time to look & contact me!
Woody Harter


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'll let you know (nobody else though).
But more seriously, are you suggesting that caveat emptor is (or should be) the
rule at auctions?
As agents, auctioneers don't have to have to guarantee title, but aren't they
obliged to disclose all material facts about an item known to them? Maybe
someone can enlighten us as to the duties of an auctioneer in this regard.

Ross G.


--- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, "thewolfsus" <megagem@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, "glebe_au" <rossg@> wrote:
> >
> > Why should I have to ask? ...
>
> Probably helps weed out us lookie-loos :)
>
> For a $100,000 item I'd probably hop right on my Gulfstream and jet out to see
it up close and have a nice conversation over coffee with the auction company's
experts and my legal counsel.  Imho, it's my responsibility to do my homework
before bidding on any item in any auction.
>
> If someone feels the information published in an auction catalog isn't
satisfactory and doesn't wish to inquire further, that's OK with me.  Anyone who
is in serious doubt shouldn't bid.
>
> If you do inquire please post here what you learn about the coin.
>
> DW
>

As regards provenance many of the better coins have been cycled through various
sales over the years, and in many cases it would not be too hard for sellers to
track down an early (say pre WWII) reference to a coin which would generally
establish a satisfactory legal title, irrespective of subsequent changes to the
laws regarding antiquities. Once published this reference could be quoted in all
subsequent sales.
Of course auction houses might not want to do this because it would devalue
coins of more recent discovery, whose provenance is usually  impaired for
various reasons.
But if so, it would presumably also enhance the price of older coins, and in the
long run the total spend on coins will stay the same anyway, so the auction
houses really have nothing to lose.

Ross G.


--- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, "snamc9" <ahala@...> wrote:
>
> Ross
>
> Your point below, I do indeed agree with, as a point of fact. But I'm not sure
that much can be done about it and the reasons are more complex than
authenticity. I guess, with regard to high quality coins, such questions could
result in three answers:
>
> - source / legal status is unknown beyond the direct seller whose records are
incomplete or who bought it on ebay / uncleaned etc
>
> - there is some information but the trail stops short somewhere. For example a
prior dealer, perhaps decades back, perhaps defunct, probably at best the
identification of a prior collector.
>
> - there is a satisfactory old provenance or provenance from an approved
excavation or other good source such as a reported and properly exported english
metal-dector find
>
> I assume there is no fourth answer ("this coin was knowingly bought from an
unreported excavation and improperly exported").
>
> The provenance of probably 90% of coins I've owned stop with the previously
selling dealer. So a prior auction is about as good as I can get. And that's
what most dealers report (two or more auctions being a bonus, more is very rare
indeed).
>
> Thus dealers restrict their comments to assuring the coin's authenticity, and
commenting on when it previously appeared in public. In practice what more could
you suggest that would not just be speculation?
>
> Andrew
>
> --- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, "glebe_au" <rossg@> wrote:
> >
> > You're right, but I think I made most of those points myself.
> > Let's not get distracted from the main game here, which is that expensive
coins are almost invariably offered with no real information as to their
authenticity or legal status.
> >
> > Ross G.
>

--- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, "glebe_au" <rossg@...> wrote:
>
> Why should I have to ask? ...

Probably helps weed out us lookie-loos :)

For a $100,000 item I'd probably hop right on my Gulfstream and jet out to see
it up close and have a nice conversation over coffee with the auction company's
experts and my legal counsel.  Imho, it's my responsibility to do my homework
before bidding on any item in any auction.

If someone feels the information published in an auction catalog isn't
satisfactory and doesn't wish to inquire further, that's OK with me.  Anyone who
is in serious doubt shouldn't bid.

If you do inquire please post here what you learn about the coin.

DW

100% silver coins today are very popular collector coins and 'bullion'
investment coins.  U.S. Silver Eagle is .999 silver (and there are many other
'bullion' coins) while 'normal' U.S. coin silver is 90% silver, 10% copper.  I
don't know if any modern or ancient coins intended for actual use are 100%
silver.

BTW, U.S. coins XRF very close to the 'theoretical' alloy composition even
though we only measure the surface with XRF.  It's one of the control tests I
always do (with a bronze cent and nickel) when performing XRF on ancient
bronzes.  I also did some tests on a 'junk' ancient bronze coin to compare the
surface with the interior (filed away the surface).  To my surprise, the coin
surface (which was black) and interior (shiny bronze) measured the same.

The one ancient silver coin (seleukid drachm) I tested showed 95% silver, 3%
copper, 1% tin, 1% lead.

Despite its surface-only limitations, XRF can produce very valuable analyses.

DW


--- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta <lmendi@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, DW
>
> Agreed with you.
>
> Science could say that a coin is not legit, but could not say it is legit.
>
> By the way, no one coin as far as I know is 100% silver....(too soft)
>
> With best wishes
>
> Lluís
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: thewolfsus
>   To: Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 9:57 PM
>   Subject: [Moneta-L] Re: Athenian Dekadrachm in Triton XIII - isotopic
analysis
>
>
>
>
>
>   --- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta <lmendi@> wrote:
>
>   > Question is: would reassure anyone that an XRF of such coin show it
agreeable with legiteness?
>
>   As I clearly wrote, XRF 'agreeable with legiteness' (sic) cannot assure
anything except just that.
>
>   > I would not be at all reassured.
>
>   Nor would anyone who understands the scientific method. All that scientific
experiments and measurements can possibly do is *rule out* (disprove)
'legiteness'. The purpose of scientific experimentation is to ruthlessly remove
bad hypotheses, nothing more.
>
>   FYI, the one ancient silver coin I XRF'd (did not indicate 100% pure silver.
There were other elements present. I don't know if other ancient coins are 100%
pure silver.
>
>   DW
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Folks,

Just to step back a minute and point out coins don't necessarily have to be
killer rare in order to make big money on them. Although Valentinian III
solidii are relatively scarce, they do come to market with some level of
regularity. And yet, here is an example coming up in Triton with an
estimate of $5000:

http://cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=153212

Compare that one to a nicer example I sold in 2006 for only $750:

http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/beastcoins/store/viewitem.asp?idProduct=4029

I think if the collector to whom I sold my example could get a 6x+ return
on just this one coin he would jump at it. It's not just rare coins that
provide good potential down the road - keep in mind attractive/high
grade/problem free coins that are common or scarce as well. You will enjoy
owning and looking at them and should still provide a ready market later on
for you.

--Beast

**************************
Beast Coins Store:  www.vcoins.com/beastcoins
Beast Coins Quarterly Auctions:
http://www.icollector.com/Beast-Coins-LLC_ae1193
Beast Coins Research: www.beastcoins.com
VAuctions:
http://www.vauctions.com/auctions/Collection.asp?collection=Beasley%20Campga
te



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ross

Your point below, I do indeed agree with, as a point of fact. But I'm not sure
that much can be done about it and the reasons are more complex than
authenticity. I guess, with regard to high quality coins, such questions could
result in three answers:

- source / legal status is unknown beyond the direct seller whose records are
incomplete or who bought it on ebay / uncleaned etc

- there is some information but the trail stops short somewhere. For example a
prior dealer, perhaps decades back, perhaps defunct, probably at best the
identification of a prior collector.

- there is a satisfactory old provenance or provenance from an approved
excavation or other good source such as a reported and properly exported english
metal-dector find

I assume there is no fourth answer ("this coin was knowingly bought from an
unreported excavation and improperly exported").

The provenance of probably 90% of coins I've owned stop with the previously
selling dealer. So a prior auction is about as good as I can get. And that's
what most dealers report (two or more auctions being a bonus, more is very rare
indeed).

Thus dealers restrict their comments to assuring the coin's authenticity, and
commenting on when it previously appeared in public. In practice what more could
you suggest that would not just be speculation?

Andrew

--- In Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com, "glebe_au" <rossg@...> wrote:
>
> You're right, but I think I made most of those points myself.
> Let's not get distracted from the main game here, which is that expensive
coins are almost invariably offered with no real information as to their
authenticity or legal status.
>
> Ross G.