I think you'd have to be in some pretty serious wind before this became an
important consideration - far beyond what most of us are likely to find
enjoyable.

As an example, the Aussies who raced a light schooner like mine endured
WAAAAAAAY more high wind and high water than I'd ever want to, in pursuit of
trophies. They never needed a running backstay, and they had on downwind run,
mostly surfing, where the averaged like 16 knots! I'm thinking that if a 3.5"
freestanding softwood mast stands up to that, the rest of us are pretty safe.

Hey, I see you ARE in Australia! Check out
http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/INDEX.HTM. Tim Fatchen is the guy. He doesn't
seem to answer email on his site anymore, but maybe you're close? (Closer than
me, anyhow!)

--Rob


gaff rig running backstays
     Posted by: "Chris" julie_chris@... juliechris1
     Date: Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:51 am ((PDT))

with the freestanding mast would it be an idea
to have running backstays for when you are sailing down wind.
There tends to be a lot of pressure put on the mast with a gaff rig
when sailing down wind.
Has any one any ideas from actual sailing experience.


---------------------------------
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  Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, I'm the new owner of an AF4B built by another Midwestern boatbuilding
addict. It looks like a pretty nice boat for what it is. Much bigger than it
looks on paper! That said, I bet the regular AF4 handles better. That's a guess,
though.

--Rob


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Chris,

> with the freestanding mast would it be an idea
> to have running backstays for when you are sailing down wind.
> There tends to be a lot of pressure put on the mast with a gaff
rig
> when sailing down wind.
> Has any one any ideas from actual sailing experience.

I sail a 23'-6" Bolger Light Schooner with a gaff cat schooner rig.
The sails are identical at 103 ft**2 each.  Although I enjoy running
her wing-and-wing ("read'n both pages"), I don't do this in much
wind to avoid the possibility of an unplanned jibe, which could be
dangerous and destructive.  Perhaps more practice with jibing would
ease my mind, but I'd be concerned that with a running backstay, the
chance for damage to the rig would be greater if she suddenly jibed
with the backstay set up.  Certainly you would be at more risk of
taking a swim in this situation, since the backstay might prevent
the boom from going where it wants to and thus cause a knockdown.

In any case, all the driving force of the sail is shared between the
mast and the sheet regardless of the point of sail.  Beating and
reaching, some of this force heels the boat, but then crew and hull
weight is countering the heel, so there's still considerable bending
force on the mast on those points of sail as well.  If your mast is
designed to be unstayed, I would leave it that way and possibly beef
it up before adding a backstay, unless I planned to use it only for
keeping a jib luff tight when sailing upwind.

Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm

Thanks Rob, (and all)

I guess "comitted" could be a bit of a strong a word...Have ordered the
plans and book and located a source of wood are probably more correct.
Ultimately I want something with a sail in the 18'-20' range but I
figured this boat would be a good, cheap learning experience. I am
quite limited on building space also or would probably just go for the
AF4.

I am in a bit of a quandry here tho. The motor that I "think" I need
for the AF4B probably isn't what I would want on an 20' trailer sailor.
I think a 10HP short shaft would be appropriate for the AF4B but would
probably want a 6HP long shaft for a sailboat. (weight being the
biggest consideration).

This boat isn't the "boat of my dreams" so I could learn on it, have
fun with it for a season or 2, and then sell it or even give it away
for what I'll have in it and no big deal. Problem is more with the
trailer and motor. They will cost me more than the boat and if I gear
for the AF4B the trailer and/or motor will either have to go with that
boat or I will have to reinvest in a bigger trailer and different motor.

Decisions Decisions :)
William

--- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
<jon@...> wrote:
>thank you Jon,
excellent advice, I will do as you suggest
> Hi Chris,
>
> > with the freestanding mast would it be an idea
> > to have running backstays for when you are sailing down wind.
> > There tends to be a lot of pressure put on the mast with a gaff
> rig
> > when sailing down wind.
> > Has any one any ideas from actual sailing experience.
>
> I sail a 23'-6" Bolger Light Schooner with a gaff cat schooner rig.
> The sails are identical at 103 ft**2 each.  Although I enjoy running
> her wing-and-wing ("read'n both pages"), I don't do this in much
> wind to avoid the possibility of an unplanned jibe, which could be
> dangerous and destructive.  Perhaps more practice with jibing would
> ease my mind, but I'd be concerned that with a running backstay, the
> chance for damage to the rig would be greater if she suddenly jibed
> with the backstay set up.  Certainly you would be at more risk of
> taking a swim in this situation, since the backstay might prevent
> the boom from going where it wants to and thus cause a knockdown.
>
> In any case, all the driving force of the sail is shared between the
> mast and the sheet regardless of the point of sail.  Beating and
> reaching, some of this force heels the boat, but then crew and hull
> weight is countering the heel, so there's still considerable bending
> force on the mast on those points of sail as well.  If your mast is
> designed to be unstayed, I would leave it that way and possibly beef
> it up before adding a backstay, unless I planned to use it only for
> keeping a jib luff tight when sailing upwind.
>
> Jon Kolb
> www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
>

just a note to state that while I'm not working very fast these days I
am making progress with the building of my Harmonica. I'm still planing
on having it on the water in May...2007...I hope!

I have posted a few more photos in the Photo Section. These photos most
likely won't be of interest to anyone except a Harmonica fan...and
those folks who like to view very poor workmanship...so their work
won't seem so shoddy...but, all are welcome to take a peek if you so
desire!

http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Michalak/photos/browse/49ce?c=


Best wishes,

Bill

Doing great, Bill. Keep it up.

Bryant

--- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Nolen" <BGN5731@...> wrote:
>
> just a note to state that while I'm not working very fast these days I
> am making progress with the building of my Harmonica. I'm still planing
> on having it on the water in May...2007...I hope!
>
> I have posted a few more photos in the Photo Section. These photos most
> likely won't be of interest to anyone except a Harmonica fan...and
> those folks who like to view very poor workmanship...so their work
> won't seem so shoddy...but, all are welcome to take a peek if you so
> desire!
>
> http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Michalak/photos/browse/49ce?c=
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Bill
>

> 3a. Gypsy Harmonica Stuff!
>     Posted by: "Bill Nolen" BGN5731@... billnolen66
>     Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 7:39 pm ((PDT))
>
> just a note to state that while I'm not working very fast these days I
> am making progress with the building of my Harmonica. I'm still planing
> on having it on the water in May...2007...I hope!
>
> I have posted a few more photos in the Photo Section. These photos most
> likely won't be of interest to anyone except a Harmonica fan...and
> those folks who like to view very poor workmanship...so their work
> won't seem so shoddy...but, all are welcome to take a peek if you so
> desire!


Looks interesting!  Keep in mind you'll want limber holes everywhere,
because water *will* get in, and you want it to drain and evaporate.

One must assume that there will be water in the boat often, and will get
everywhere along the hull bottom.

I am very interested in how the high seats work out--if they work out,
Jim should adopt the design idea.  My seats are LOW.

-Chris

Well, hold on a moment here. (Let me apologize right now for raising more
questions!)

   On motors, You're right that you will probably want a different motor for the
sailboat, but it's not so much weight or shaft length. It's fuel consumption.
Jim designs the sterns of most of his sailboats to accommodate the cheap and
common short shaft motor. And assuming you're looking at old-school cheap
motors, the weight won't be too different. Maybe 50 lbs versus 80ish lbs. That's
about the difference between my 1954 Johnson 5.5 and my 1952 Johnson 12.

   But more importantly, if your ultimate goal is a sailboat, why not just build
one? You can always use it as a low speed motor launch when you don't feel like
sailing. I very often do this with the Light Schooner, though I might do it less
often now that I have the AF4B.

   On top of that, there's the Michalak-recommended approach of building a little
boat first, since it will almost always get more use than the big one even when
you have both. The canoe/pirogue/dink/punt/rowboat can hang out on the car's
roof all summer, ready to go at the drop of a hat. Let's face it, when you have
a free hour, you're not going to hitch a trailer. But you may very well yank the
little boat off the car for a short outing. The quicker and easier the setup,
the more you use it. (Besides, I'm pretty sure that sailing skills improve
fastest in the smallest boats. The effects of one's actions are immediately
apparent.)

   Sometimes systematizing the questions helps. Michael Connelly and I have been
poking around at a survey that would help people narrow in on what fits them
best. If you're game, here's an abbreviated version:

   1. Your weather (Where do you live, anyway?)
      a. How many months of the year would it be safe and pleasant to get wet on
the water?
      b. How many months of the year is the water frozen?
      c. Average number of rainy or cold unpleasant days during the boating
season
      d. Average number of in-season days with wind under 5 mph
      e. Average number of in-season days wind 5-15 mph
      f. Average number of in-season days wind 15+ mph

   2. Local Water
   What kind of water is on your way home from work, or within a 5 minute detour?
      a. small lake
      b. large lake or ocean
      c. pond or open water in marshland
      d. river - what's the current or drop per mile?
   What kind of water is within a 30 minute drive of home?
      a. small lake
      b. large lake or ocean
      c. pond or open water in marshland
      d. river - what's the current or drop per mile?

   3. Free Time
       a. How much time can you use for boating on a weekday?
       b. How many weekdays could you pull this off in a month?
       c. How much time can you use for boating on a weekend day?
       d. How many weekends could you manage this each month?

   4. Family
      a. Who's coming along? (Include the dog, if applicable)
      b. Who will be waiting for you at home?

   5. Experience
      a. How much paddling have you done?
      b. Rowing?
      c. Sailing?
      d. Motorboating?

   This might seem like a lot of work, but it's a hell of a lot less work than
building something only to realize a different boat would have been better.
(Like I wish I'd known about the Core Sound 20 when I built the schooner.
Damn...) It might very well precipitate some good advice from the group as well.

   --Rob


Re: Committed to an AF4B
     Posted by: "gdbg66a2000" gdbg66a2000@... gdbg66a2000
     Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 12:14 pm ((PDT))

Thanks Rob, (and all)

I guess "comitted" could be a bit of a strong a word...Have ordered the
plans and book and located a source of wood are probably more correct.
Ultimately I want something with a sail in the 18'-20' range but I
figured this boat would be a good, cheap learning experience. I am
quite limited on building space also or would probably just go for the
AF4.

I am in a bit of a quandry here tho. The motor that I "think" I need
for the AF4B probably isn't what I would want on an 20' trailer sailor.
I think a 10HP short shaft would be appropriate for the AF4B but would
probably want a 6HP long shaft for a sailboat. (weight being the
biggest consideration).

This boat isn't the "boat of my dreams" so I could learn on it, have
fun with it for a season or 2, and then sell it or even give it away
for what I'll have in it and no big deal. Problem is more with the
trailer and motor. They will cost me more than the boat and if I gear
for the AF4B the trailer and/or motor will either have to go with that
boat or I will have to reinvest in a bigger trailer and different
motor.

Decisions Decisions :)
William



---------------------------------
Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Chris Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:

> Looks interesting!  Keep in mind you'll want limber holes everywhere,
> because water *will* get in, and you want it to drain and evaporate.
>
> One must assume that there will be water in the boat often, and will
get
> everywhere along the hull bottom.
>
> I am very interested in how the high seats work out--if they work
out,
> Jim should adopt the design idea.  My seats are LOW.
>
> -Chris
>

Chris,
I did place limber holes in the outer edges of the two center bulkheads
as called for by the plans. However, now that I am futher along with
the construction I can see that more limber lines would be desirable.
With two 1" by 4" boards running crosswise across the hull, there are
just too many places where water can, and most likely collect! At this
point I'm not sure how a person would go about adding additional limber
holes. Any suggestions?

I also need to add several vent holes in the seat fronts. Other than
having ballast higher up in the hull, I can't think of any reason why
the higher seats shouldn't work just fine. But, the real test will come
with the actual use of the boat!

I have added a 1-inch drain in the center of the stern bulkhead Which I
hope will aid in draining water from the boat. I was planning on being
able to store the boat in my little barn/boatworks/workshop, but the
trailer may be too long. I'll just have to wait and see once I get the
trailer modified for the Harmonica. Otherwise I'll use a good tarp and
hope for the best!

I spent the morning painting the sides with primer. I sure hate sanding
and painting!!

Bill

All good points and I have been there with some of them. I live in S
Colorado. Definetly not the sailing capital or the world! My only
small lake, (with what can be fluky winds on a moments notice), is
about 10 mi away. My first sailboat was a a Hunter 23. A puppy's
mother to rig so really limited me on an impromptu day out. Last boat
was a WWP-15 which was 1 hr from house to sailing. Much better but
small. They say there are 3 reasons to build a boat: 1) One lives in
an area that there are no readily available/suitable boats for sale,
2) One just can't get the features they want, 3) One just wants to
have the "fun" of building. I pretty much fit all 3.

Even cheap, older 2 strokes are hard to come by around here. I am
actually looking towards a newer 4 stroke. (With an eye towards using
it on my next boat). 55# for a 6HP Nissan and 100+ for a 10HP. I
wouldn't consider a 6HP enough for the AF4B if the wind got up on my
lake and 100# is allot on the transom of a small sailboat.

Truthfully, On Duckworks, Paul Fishers "Galway" with bilge keel would
be more what I might ultimately want, or something along that line,
but having never built a boat I would be hesitant to undertake that
project as a first boat. I also have a limitation of about 2000# on
my tow vehicke too.

Please keep the thoughts coming. It helps to have other ideas and
oppinions.

Regards~
William

--- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Rob Rohde-Szudy <robrohdeszudy@...>
wrote:
>
> Well, hold on a moment here. (Let me apologize right now for
raising more questions!)
>
>   On motors, You're right that you will probably want a different
motor for the sailboat, but it's not so much weight or shaft length.
It's fuel consumption. Jim designs the sterns of most of his
sailboats to accommodate the cheap and common short shaft motor. And
assuming you're looking at old-school cheap motors, the weight won't
be too different. Maybe 50 lbs versus 80ish lbs. That's about the
difference between my 1954 Johnson 5.5 and my 1952 Johnson 12.
>
>   But more importantly, if your ultimate goal is a sailboat, why
not just build one? You can always use it as a low speed motor launch
when you don't feel like sailing. I very often do this with the Light
Schooner, though I might do it less often now that I have the AF4B.
>
>   On top of that, there's the Michalak-recommended approach of
building a little boat first, since it will almost always get more
use than the big one even when you have both. The
canoe/pirogue/dink/punt/rowboat can hang out on the car's roof all
summer, ready to go at the drop of a hat. Let's face it, when you
have a free hour, you're not going to hitch a trailer. But you may
very well yank the little boat off the car for a short outing. The
quicker and easier the setup, the more you use it. (Besides, I'm
pretty sure that sailing skills improve fastest in the smallest
boats. The effects of one's actions are immediately apparent.)
>
>   Sometimes systematizing the questions helps. Michael Connelly and
I have been poking around at a survey that would help people narrow
in on what fits them best. If you're game, here's an abbreviated
version:
>
>   1. Your weather (Where do you live, anyway?)
>      a. How many months of the year would it be safe and pleasant
to get wet on the water?
>      b. How many months of the year is the water frozen?
>      c. Average number of rainy or cold unpleasant days during the
boating season
>      d. Average number of in-season days with wind under 5 mph
>      e. Average number of in-season days wind 5-15 mph
>      f. Average number of in-season days wind 15+ mph
>
>   2. Local Water
>   What kind of water is on your way home from work, or within a 5
minute detour?
>      a. small lake
>      b. large lake or ocean
>      c. pond or open water in marshland
>      d. river - what's the current or drop per mile?
>   What kind of water is within a 30 minute drive of home?
>      a. small lake
>      b. large lake or ocean
>      c. pond or open water in marshland
>      d. river - what's the current or drop per mile?
>
>   3. Free Time
>       a. How much time can you use for boating on a weekday?
>       b. How many weekdays could you pull this off in a month?
>       c. How much time can you use for boating on a weekend day?
>       d. How many weekends could you manage this each month?
>
>   4. Family
>      a. Who's coming along? (Include the dog, if applicable)
>      b. Who will be waiting for you at home?
>
>   5. Experience
>      a. How much paddling have you done?
>      b. Rowing?
>      c. Sailing?
>      d. Motorboating?
>
>   This might seem like a lot of work, but it's a hell of a lot less
work than building something only to realize a different boat would
have been better. (Like I wish I'd known about the Core Sound 20 when
I built the schooner. Damn...) It might very well precipitate some
good advice from the group as well.
>
>   --Rob
>
>
> Re: Committed to an AF4B
>     Posted by: "gdbg66a2000" gdbg66a2000@... gdbg66a2000
>     Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 12:14 pm ((PDT))
>
> Thanks Rob, (and all)
>
> I guess "comitted" could be a bit of a strong a word...Have ordered
the
> plans and book and located a source of wood are probably more
correct.
> Ultimately I want something with a sail in the 18'-20' range but I
> figured this boat would be a good, cheap learning experience. I am
> quite limited on building space also or would probably just go for
the
> AF4.
>
> I am in a bit of a quandry here tho. The motor that I "think" I
need
> for the AF4B probably isn't what I would want on an 20' trailer
sailor.
> I think a 10HP short shaft would be appropriate for the AF4B but
would
> probably want a 6HP long shaft for a sailboat. (weight being the
> biggest consideration).
>
> This boat isn't the "boat of my dreams" so I could learn on it,
have
> fun with it for a season or 2, and then sell it or even give it
away
> for what I'll have in it and no big deal. Problem is more with the
> trailer and motor. They will cost me more than the boat and if I
gear
> for the AF4B the trailer and/or motor will either have to go with
that
> boat or I will have to reinvest in a bigger trailer and different
> motor.
>
> Decisions Decisions :)
> William
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
> in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

> I did place limber holes in the outer edges of the two center bulkheads
> as called for by the plans. However, now that I am futher along with
> the construction I can see that more limber lines would be desirable.
> With two 1" by 4" boards running crosswise across the hull, there are
> just too many places where water can, and most likely collect! At this
> point I'm not sure how a person would go about adding additional limber
> holes. Any suggestions?
>
> I also need to add several vent holes in the seat fronts. Other than
> having ballast higher up in the hull, I can't think of any reason why
> the higher seats shouldn't work just fine. But, the real test will come
> with the actual use of the boat!
>
> I have added a 1-inch drain in the center of the stern bulkhead Which I
> hope will aid in draining water from the boat. I was planning on being
> able to store the boat in my little barn/boatworks/workshop, but the
> trailer may be too long. I'll just have to wait and see once I get the
> trailer modified for the Harmonica. Otherwise I'll use a good tarp and
> hope for the best!
>
> I spent the morning painting the sides with primer. I sure hate sanding
> and painting!!


Sanding is a drag, but I love painting!

If water can collect there, it will.  It's a guarantee--water can get
in, it needs to get out.  Ventilation is the only answer, that and the
judicious and repeated use of a big sponge.


Gotta go to Arizona, where there's very little boating available (where
I'm going).  More when I return.

-Chris

--- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Chris Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:
>
>
> Sanding is a drag, but I love painting!
>
> If water can collect there, it will.  It's a guarantee--water can
get
> in, it needs to get out.  Ventilation is the only answer, that and
the
> judicious and repeated use of a big sponge.
>
>
> Gotta go to Arizona, where there's very little boating available
(where
> I'm going).  More when I return.
>
> -Chris
>
  Chris, have a nice and safe trip! Some Arizona areas can be VERY
dry.
I spent one winter (3-months) camping in the Arizona desert near
Yuma. No facilities at all. Carried water in and sewer out! But, we
had a great time!

Bill

If you have trouble getting access to white pine planks, you can
substitute another softwood that you can get in your area.
Listen, until now getting your hands on a hand crafted Grand Banks Dory
was not an easy thing to do. Unless you knew someone with a Dory for
sale, a rarity, you had to order one from somewhere on the East Coast
like Newfoundland or Nova Scotia, possibly Maine and deal with shipping
costs to wherever in the world you live.....NOT ANYMORE.
Now, YOU can build your own Dory, from the same plans that are
currently being used by "The Banker Dory" to custom build Banker Dory's
for customers all over North America.
http://doryboatdiy.blogspot.com/#

Hey William,

   Have you considered a canoe? Your location puts you quite close to some of the
most beautiful canoeing in the world! And of course the canoe is easily the most
boating experience for the money of any boat. It lives on the cartop all summer
and you can throw it in almost any water from almost anywhere with little
preparation. If you have bike you don't even need a shuttle car. Being from
Wisconsin, I REALLY hate to admit I'm pretty new to the canoe. But it truly has
much to recommend it.

   But canoe sailing is of course not the same as sailing a larger boat. If
you're hooked on sailing, build a sailboat. I would avoid anything very big,
since sailing a big boat with fluky winds is damned frustrating. (What lake, out
of curiosity?) The Galway looks quite heavy and you would not want ballast or
bilge keels when the wind dies OR when trailering. Galway seems adapted for the
big wind and waves of the British Channel, which is no suprise given where the
designer comes from. But I think it would be a dull sailer on your lake. For a
little lake with fluky wind and small waves, you want something light and easy
to power. The lightness also lets you easily manipulate the trim by moving your
body. With light wind one often needs to sit to lee to induce heel to get a boat
going. You can't easily do that in a ballasted keel boat. If you did OK in a
WWP-15, then I would not give up the advantages of a lightweight flattie.
(Interior space, shallow draft, easy trailering,
  easy construction, etc.)

   Given your distance to the lake, you also need a FAST setup. I'd insist on a
tabernacle even if the mast is pretty light, just so you can leave the rig all
put-together. Your setup should be hop in the boat, raise mast and pin in place,
clip on lazyjack and sheet, stick the rudder in place and clip the safety
lanyard, jump out, unhook the stern tie-down(s). Then you're ready to launch -
probably under 5 min. Further arguing for the lug rig, flexibility in the
tabermacle (or mast) will be unimportant to a balanced lug rig. This rig also
allows a shorter mast that folds down closer to within the length of the boat.
The lug also seems relatively tolerant of fluky winds, though the junk might be
better.

   So I think your best choice might be an AF3 with a tabernacle and the lug rig
option. (Maybe AF2 or one of the birdwatcher types if you want to sleep in it a
lot, but I'd mock up the AF3 in cardboard before writing it off.)  AF3 is small
and light enough to row well in a calm and launch with no fuss at all. Any car
could tow it. It's easy to build too, and has a cabin for experimenting with
camping or stowing the boat paraphenalia out of the elements while it's sitting
in your driveway. I think it should be pretty comparable to a WWP-15 but with a
MUCH faster setup time. (Probably while you're in line for the ramp, with some
practice.) If you REALLY want more space, I'd apply the same ideas to AF2.

   BTW, it's not that I'm some kind of insanely devoted Michalak fan. He just
knows the most about how to design a boat non-coastal people can get a lot of
practical use out of. Coastal types seldom understand that you need different
things on a little inland lake with fluky winds!

   And all the above notwithstanding, think about a canoe, man!!! I bet you'd use
it a lot even if you HAD your dream sailboat. Ultimately you'll probably want
both.

   --Rob


   Re: Committed to an AF4B
     Posted by: "gdbg66a2000" gdbg66a2000@... gdbg66a2000
     Date: Wed Apr 4, 2007 8:41 am ((PDT))

All good points and I have been there with some of them. I live in S
Colorado. Definetly not the sailing capital or the world! My only
small lake, (with what can be fluky winds on a moments notice), is
about 10 mi away. My first sailboat was a a Hunter 23. A puppy's
mother to rig so really limited me on an impromptu day out. Last boat
was a WWP-15 which was 1 hr from house to sailing. Much better but
small. They say there are 3 reasons to build a boat: 1) One lives in
an area that there are no readily available/suitable boats for sale,
2) One just can't get the features they want, 3) One just wants to
have the "fun" of building. I pretty much fit all 3.

Even cheap, older 2 strokes are hard to come by around here. I am
actually looking towards a newer 4 stroke. (With an eye towards using
it on my next boat). 55# for a 6HP Nissan and 100+ for a 10HP. I
wouldn't consider a 6HP enough for the AF4B if the wind got up on my
lake and 100# is allot on the transom of a small sailboat.

Truthfully, On Duckworks, Paul Fishers "Galway" with bilge keel would
be more what I might ultimately want, or something along that line,
but having never built a boat I would be hesitant to undertake that
project as a first boat. I also have a limitation of about 2000# on
my tow vehicke too.

Please keep the thoughts coming. It helps to have other ideas and
oppinions.

Regards~
William



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Just added couple of Photos.

The last one is a picture of the reason why the boat will not be ready
sooner.

Happy buildings!

May The Float Be With You!

Markku

I would like to view a caprice or cormorant anywhere within a few
hours drive of Saint Louis. I think a jewelbox is too small, might
like a bit more headroom in a caprice cabin (based on photos), would
love a cormorant but it is probably too big for a first boat. My dream
is to spend a month or two sail camping and fishing on Great Slave
Lake in Canada's Northwest Territories (20 hours daylight in summer).
I'm trying to choose a suitable boat but would like to see the layout
before choosing. Shoal draft is important. If it's not an open boat,
then its cabin should not be claustrophobic. Crew would include my
wife and two dogs. I developed very rudimentary sailing skills on a
14ft snark sunchaser sailboat (small for a 270 lb. man). I'd like to
investigate electric drive (as per http://re-e-power.com/) with solar
panels for recharging.

Thanks.

Terry O'Brien

Hello all,
    I've tried some internet searches but had no luck coming up with
info regarding building a T-shaped boom (not sure if a T spar can be
used for a gaff).  Sources?  This is for a Musicbox.
    Thanks,
    Josh in California

what about a petes boat?


To: Michalak@...: terrence.obrien@...: Fri, 6 Apr
2007 19:30:48 +0000Subject: [Michalak] caprice or cormorant in Saint Louis area




I would like to view a caprice or cormorant anywhere within a few hours drive of
Saint Louis. I think a jewelbox is too small, might like a bit more headroom in
a caprice cabin (based on photos), would love a cormorant but it is probably too
big for a first boat. My dream is to spend a month or two sail camping and
fishing on Great Slave Lake in Canada's Northwest Territories (20 hours daylight
in summer). I'm trying to choose a suitable boat but would like to see the
layout before choosing. Shoal draft is important. If it's not an open boat, then
its cabin should not be claustrophobic. Crew would include my wife and two dogs.
I developed very rudimentary sailing skills on a 14ft snark sunchaser sailboat
(small for a 270 lb. man). I'd like to investigate electric drive (as per
http://re-e-power.com/) with solar panels for recharging.Thanks.Terry O'Brien


_________________________________________________________________
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it.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have the plans for a woobo, just haven't had a chance to start yet
and spring is here.

OK, so here is the question.  I was looking on
www.duckworksmagazine.com and came across a boat called the Phoenix
III (http://duckworksbbs.com/plans/lillistone/phoenix/index.htm).
For some reason I really like the looks of the sails on that boat.
The designer calls it a "spritsail with a jib set flying".

I was wondering how hard it would be to convert the Woobo to that
sail design?

I guess the way to try and figure out the size of the sails would be
to take the original size of the Woobo sail and try to get the
spritsail and jib to equal the same square footage?  Than play with
the size of each one to keep the helm balanced?

Any ideas?
Thanks
David Taylor

> I would like to view a caprice or cormorant anywhere within a few
> hours drive of Saint Louis. I think a jewelbox is too small, might
> like a bit more headroom in a caprice cabin (based on photos), would
> love a cormorant but it is probably too big for a first boat.



You might have a look @ Jim Michalak's Bridwatcher, if you
haven't already.

I don't know if he is bringing it to the Midwest Messabout
@ Rend Lake, but I am sure that you could arrange to see
it at his house or maybe at Carlyle Lake.

Even if you are not interested in the Birdwatcher, it will
give you an idea as to the room in such boats.


Max

Anyone used one of these "Greenland paddles?"

http://www.yostwerks.com/GPIntro.html


Max

--- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "taylor_d_g" <dgtaylor@...> wrote:
>
> I have the plans for a woobo, just haven't had a chance to start
yet
> and spring is here.
>
> OK, so here is the question.  I was looking on
> www.duckworksmagazine.com and came across a boat called the Phoenix
> III (http://duckworksbbs.com/plans/lillistone/phoenix/index.htm).
> For some reason I really like the looks of the sails on that boat.
> The designer calls it a "spritsail with a jib set flying".
>
> I was wondering how hard it would be to convert the Woobo to that
> sail design?
>



I would suggest going though Jim's back issues for his
columns on using different rigs on different boats;  He
pretty much explains the process to go through for changing
rigs.

This book would probably be of help:

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/media/books/tradsails/index.htm

If Jim thinks the idea is feasable, he would probably draw-up
an alternate sail rig for the boat for a reasonable fee, which
might be the best way to go.  The relatively small amount of
money would be well spent "insurance" that you did not run
across an unanticipated problem.

Just my opinion.

And I always have one.


Max

--- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Terry O'Brien"
<terrence.obrien@...> wrote:
>
> I would like to view a caprice or cormorant anywhere within a few
> hours drive of Saint Louis. I think a jewelbox is too small, might
> like a bit more headroom in a caprice cabin (based on photos),
would
> love a cormorant but it is probably too big for a first boat. My
dream
> is to spend a month or two sail camping and fishing on Great Slave
> Lake in Canada's Northwest Territories (20 hours daylight in
summer).
> I'm trying to choose a suitable boat but would like to see the
layout
> before choosing. Shoal draft is important. If it's not an open
boat,
> then its cabin should not be claustrophobic. Crew would include my
> wife and two dogs. I developed very rudimentary sailing skills on a
> 14ft snark sunchaser sailboat (small for a 270 lb. man). I'd like
to
> investigate electric drive (as per http://re-e-power.com/) with
solar
> panels for recharging.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Terry O'Brien
>
Have you ever been to that area?
Mike

Hey Max. That sure looks like the hard way to build one! I made one from a red
cedar 2x4. It was pretty easy to shape and it did work as advertised.

However this style of paddle seems to really be made for a narrow inuit type
kayak - little wider than the paddler's butt. It loses its advantages as the
beam increases. I'm no expert paddler, but I could tell Toto was really too wide
to get the most out of it.

I didn't pursue it much further though, because of my distaste for double
paddles. They DRIP on me! Call me prissy, but if I'm gonna paddle in March in
Wisconsin, I'd rather learn the single paddle strokes than get dripped on.

I'm not sure how useful that response was, but hopefully it did some good.

--Rob


"Greenland"  paddle
     Posted by: "vexatious2001" cadbury112@... vexatious2001
     Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 7:13 pm ((PDT))

Anyone used one of these "Greenland paddles?"

http://www.yostwerks.com/GPIntro.html


Max



---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Howdy Max

vexatious2001 wrote:
> Anyone used one of these "Greenland paddles?"
>
> http://www.yostwerks.com/GPIntro.html
>
Yes, and they work just fine. :)

--
See Ya

Have Lots of FUN

Bruce

Http://myweb.cableone.net/bcanderson

Howdy Max

vexatious2001 wrote:
> Anyone used one of these "Greenland paddles?"
>
> http://www.yostwerks.com/GPIntro.html
>
I made two, one regular length, and one storm paddle.  The storm paddle
is shorter.  Also both of my paddle blades have diamond shape long on
the width axis, and of course narrow on the width. They were made from
different plans than the ones you reference.

--
See Ya

Have Lots of FUN

Bruce

Http://myweb.cableone.net/bcanderson

Hi Max

Rob's got a point re the width. Actually I suspect it's also a LxW
ratio issue as well. IIRC they're designed for long narrow kayaks
where you want to do a lot of straight line paddling. More of a sea
kayak than a WW kayak thing to do.

The paddling style is quite different than a standard kayak paddle.
I've used one briefly on a Mouse and all things considered I'd stick
to my home-made rec paddle. But that's me.

Bryant

--- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Rob Rohde-Szudy <robrohdeszudy@...>
wrote:
>
>
> Hey Max. That sure looks like the hard way to build one! I made one
from a red cedar 2x4. It was pretty easy to shape and it did work as
advertised.
>
> However this style of paddle seems to really be made for a narrow
inuit type kayak - little wider than the paddler's butt. It loses its
advantages as the beam increases. I'm no expert paddler, but I could
tell Toto was really too wide to get the most out of it.
>
> I didn't pursue it much further though, because of my distaste for
double paddles. They DRIP on me! Call me prissy, but if I'm gonna
paddle in March in Wisconsin, I'd rather learn the single paddle
strokes than get dripped on.
>
> I'm not sure how useful that response was, but hopefully it did some
good.
>
> --Rob
>
>
> "Greenland"  paddle
>     Posted by: "vexatious2001" cadbury112@... vexatious2001
>     Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 7:13 pm ((PDT))
>
> Anyone used one of these "Greenland paddles?"
>
> http://www.yostwerks.com/GPIntro.html
>
>
> Max
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Looking for earth-friendly autos?
>  Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Bruce C. Anderson wrote:
>  Also both of my paddle blades have diamond shape long on
> the width axis, and of course narrow on the width. They were made from
> different plans than the ones you reference.
>
OOPS, sorry I meant to say long on the width and narrow on the depth. :(

Hope that makes it clear as mud.

Hi I just received my plans of the VeeP 14 and can't wait to get
started. Ihave never built a boat before but I do alright on wood and
metal working projects. I have 2 questions, I live in the Knoxville
area and would like a lead on some marine ply and I was wondering if
any one had any pictures of a VeeP 14 other than what is on Jim's site.

   I am new to boat building, so if anyone has any sugesstions I am all
ears.  PS yes I have already received Jim's book and I contine to try
to drill it into my head