Dover board member back
Bill Buckingham missed a meeting appointing legal defense for the
district.

By JOSEPH MALDONADO

For the Daily Record/Sunday News
Friday, December 31, 2004

Dover Area School Board member Bill Buckingham, who headed the board's
push to have intelligent design included in the district's science
curriculum and then missed three board meetings — including the one at
which the school board appointed a legal team to defend a lawsuit over
the new policy — is back on the scene.

"All I can tell you is that I had to take care of some personal
business," he said Thursday.
Before he left in early December, he said, representatives from the
Thomas More Law Center in Ann Arbor, Mich., advised him not to say where
he was going or what the personal matters pertained to.

On Dec. 20, without Buckingham present, the board voted to appoint the
Thomas More center to defend it against a lawsuit filed on behalf of 11
parents in the district who do not want intelligent design to be taught
in Dover Area biology classes.

More than a week ago, Thomas More center president Richard Thompson said
he wanted to get in touch with Buckingham but didn't know where to find
him.

Buckingham said he'll attend the board's meeting Monday.

"I hope I haven't given the impression that I have been ducking the
issues or hiding," he said.

Buckingham said he is ready for the district's day in court.

"It has always been my contention that this board hasn't done anything
wrong," he said. "So let's get on with it."

Attorneys for parents who are suing the district have said they want to
depose Buckingham to help them determine whether to file a request for a
temporary restraining order in hopes of preventing intelligent design
from being taught this semester in ninth-grade biology class. That could
occur as early as Jan. 13.

Monday, former board president Alan Bonsell, current president Sheila
Harkins and district Supt. Richard Nilsen are scheduled to give legal
depositions on the issue.

Intelligent design suggests that life was created by a designer, which
critics say equates to a deity or god. They argue that teaching the
theory violates the constitutional separation of church and state.

"We do not want to teach religion," said Buckingham, who is chairman of
the curriculum committee. "That's not what this is about."

Former board president Alan Bonsell reiterated what he has said since
the curriculum change.
"The board simply wants to provide an alternative, scientific theory of
how the world works," he said. "And intelligent design is science."

Neither Buckingham nor Bonsell would say any more about the curriculum
change on the advice of their lawyers.

###################

Maybe it is a true story.  It is certainly a good story.

######################

QUAKE ANGEL

By DUNCAN LARCOMBE

January 1, 2005 --  PHUKET, Thailand - Quick-thinking 10-year-old Tilly
Smith is being hailed as a hero after saving her parents and dozens of
fellow vacationers from the deadly tsunami - thanks to a school
geography lesson.

Tilly warned the doubting adults at a resort that a massive tidal wave
was about to strike - just minutes before the deadly tide rushed in and
turned the resort into rubble. Tilly's family, from Surrey, England, was
enjoying a day at Maikhao Beach last Sunday when the sea rushed out and
began to bubble.

The adults were curious, but Tilly froze in horror.

"Mummy, we must get off the beach now!" she told her mother. "I think
there's going to be a tsunami."

The adults didn't understand until Tilly added the magic words: "A tidal
wave."

Her warning spread like wildfire. Within seconds, the beach was deserted
— and it turned out to be one of the only places along the shores of
Phuket where no one was killed or seriously injured.

Last night, Tilly was being hailed as a savior.

"I think it's phenomenal that Tilly's parents and the others on the
beach are alive because she studied hard at school," said Craig Smith,
the American manager of the JW Marriott Hotel where Tilly's family was
staying.

He said a tsunami is not like you see in the movies, where a huge wave
wells up on the horizon and can be seen for miles off shore.

"It is more like a sudden surge of water," he said. "There's very little
warning. She's a hero."

Tilly shrugged off the attention and modestly said, "Last term, my
geography teacher, Mr. Kearney, taught us about earthquakes and how they
can cause tsunamis.

"I was on the beach, and the water started to go funny.

"I recognized what was happening and had a feeling there was going to be
a tsunami."

Her mother, Penny Smith, 43, recalled how their family, including
Tilly's father Colin, 46, and 7-year-old younger sister, Holly, were
enjoying a Christmas vacation before tragedy struck.

"When the water went back, I was like most people on the beach. I wanted
to walk down and look at what was going on," she recalled. "It was only
when Tilly explained what she thought was going to happen that I had
second thoughts.

"We ran off the beach as fast as we could and went to the first floor of
the hotel where it would be safe. Minutes later the water surged right
over the beach and demolished everything in its path.

"It was terrifying to watch but I'm very proud of her."

The Sun newspaper

#######################

Following is a link and excerpt from Gil Yoder's list:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LURL2004/message/4780

> I understand there are those who would opine that
> Eph. 5:11 applies only to the church; and since the
> institution (i.e., private school) is not the church,
> its message does not apply to the institution.

> If that is the position of the institution, then let
> them divorce themselves from the church of Christ
> (as did ACU).

What is with that ACU divorce.

I thought, and properly so, that ACU went to a lot of trouble to get
the feds to recognize ACU as an "integral agency of the church".

As I recall, the school's history shows that there never was a
marriage, and hence could not have been a divorce.

Yet, ACU, and other similar schools, still enjoy their "integral
agency of the churches of Christ" status.

Go figure!

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

>From: "FFRF News" <ffrfnews@...>
>Reply-To: "FFRF News" <ffrfnews@...>
>To: heapadog@...
>Subject: [FFRF in the News] Madison Group Suing Federal Government Over
>Faith-Based Initiative
>Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 08:50:30 -0800
>
>
>
>FFRF in the News
>"Madison Group Suing Federal Government Over Faith-Based Initiative"
>January 3, 2004
>
>The following Associated Press story, about faith-based organizations
>receiving federal funding in Wisconsin, reports on the Freedom From
>Religion Foundation's faith-based lawsuit. The text of the article follows
>after the link.
>
>http://www.channel3000.com/money/4041358/detail.html
>
>
>
>Madison Group Suing Federal Government Over Faith-Based Initiative
>Channel3000.com
>January 3, 2005
>
>Faith-based organizations in Wisconsin received more than $12 million in
>federal grants from the Bush administration in 2003 to deliver services
>ranging from abstinence education to housing assistance.
>
>President George Bush announced his faith-based initiative early in his
>presidency to give religious organizations equal footing in competing for
>federal contracts.
>
>The Associated Press reviewed records that provide details for the first
>time on what religious groups have received federal money through the
>president's efforts.
>
>In Wisconsin, the money was divided among 21 religious organizations. Many
>of them provide housing assistance for the poor or homeless.
>
>AP interviews with 19 of the 21 grant recipients found that only two groups
>say religion is an optional part of their programs. One group says while
>its values are woven into the curriculum, there's nothing overtly religious
>about what they do.
>
>Federal rules governing the money prohibit organizations from requiring
>participants to engage in a religious activity.
>
>The Madison-based Freedom From Religion Foundation has filed a federal
>lawsuit claiming the Bush administration illegally favors religious groups
>for federal contracts, violating the First Amendment.
>
>Catherine Marian Housing, Racine, $110,107, HUD
>Catholic Community Services Inc., Superior, $20,000, HUD
>City of Madison (fiscal agent for two groups: Porchlight Inc. and Housing
>Initiatives Inc.), $750,000, HUD
>*Community Advocates, Milwaukee, $22,355, Department of Education
>Edgewood College, $220,672, Department of Justice
>HOLIE Inc., Milwaukee, $3.6 million, HUD
>Holy Redeemer Institutional Church of God in Christ, $676,598, two grants
>from HHS
>Interfaith Hospitality Network of the Madison Area, $109,992, HUD
>Lutheran Social Services, Eau Claire, $1.4 million, seven grants from HHS
>and the Department of Housing and Urban Development
>Lutheran Social Services, Superior, $15,974, HHS
>Marion House, Green Bay, $131,579, Department of Health and Human Services
>Milwaukee Boys & Girls Club, Milwaukee, $1 million, HHS
>Milwaukee Christian Center, $226,000, HUD
>Opportunities Industrialization Center of Greater Milwaukee, $848,309, two
>grants from HHS
>Rosalie Manor, Milwaukee, $609,478, HHS
>Racine Vocational Ministry, $63,311, HUD
>St. Coletta of Wisconsin, Inc., Jefferson, $780,500, HUD
>The Salvation Army, Madison, $123,193, HUD
>The Salvation Army, Milwaukee, $762,293, HUD
>Transitional Living Services Inc., Racine, $515,909, HUD
>Unified Catholic School of Oshkosh Inc., $244,557, Department of Education
>
>*Community Advocates received the grant for its Parents Plus program,
>designed to increase parent involvement in schools; officials said they are
>not a faith-based organization. The group subcontracts with the Institute
>for Transformation of Learning at Marquette University in Milwaukee, a
>Jesuit school.
>
>Copyright 2004 by The Associated Press . All rights reserved. This material
>may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
>
>................................................................
>This E-News is courtesy of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, PO Box
>750, Madison WI 53701. If you no longer wish to receive FFRF updates and
>alerts, simply reply and ask to be removed.
>
>The Freedom From Religion Foundation is a national association of
>freethinkers (atheists and agnostics) working to keep church and state
>separate since 1978. For more information, go to http://www.ffrf.org.

>From: "FFRF News" <ffrfnews@...>
>Reply-To: "FFRF News" <ffrfnews@...>
>To: heapadog@...
>Subject: [FFRF News] Watchdog Freedom From Religion Foundation Challenges
>HHS Faith-based Grant to Emory University
>Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 09:55:14 -0800
>
>
>
>The following news release can also be found online here:
>
>Watchdog Freedom From Religion Foundation Challenges HHS Faith-based Grant
>to Emory University
>http://ffrf.org/news/2005/emorylawsuit.php
>
>
>Also Pursues Faith-based Mentoring Lawsuit
>
>Watchdog Freedom From Religion Foundation Challenges HHS Faith-based Grant
>to Emory University
>
>January 3, 2005
>
>(Madison, Wis.) The Freedom From Religion Foundation's broad lawsuit filed
>last year over Cabinet-level faith-based funding under Pres. Bush's
>initiative now includes a challenge of a 3-year grant from Health & Human
>Services to Emory University. The Freedom From Religion Foundation v. Jim
>Towey, et al., was filed in June before the U.S. District Court of Judge
>John Shabazz, Western District of Wisconsin.
>
>As a first installment, Emory University received a $1.5 million federal
>grant from Health & Human Service, announced in October 2002, to support
>faith-based community health programs across the country. Emory's
>Interfaith Health Program (IHP) disbursed $900,000 of its public grant to
>nine "religious health conversation" foundations:
>
>Saint Joseph's Mercy Foundation, Atlanta, Ga. (Roman Catholic); The Rapides
>Foundation, Alexandria, La.; Wheat Ridge Ministries, a Lutheran-affiliated
>agency in Chicago, Ill.; Vesper Society, Hayward, Ga.; St. Luke's Episcopal
>Health Charities, Houston, Texas; United Methodist Health Ministry Fund,
>Kansas; The Deaconess Foundation, St. Louis; the Incarnate Word Foundation,
>St. Louis; and The Lutheran Foundation of St. Louis.
>
>In turn, these religious groups are charged with awarding subgrants. The
>grant application stated that "subawards will be granted to 49 faith-based
>organizations." To date, at least 80% of subgrants have gone to religious
>agencies, the Foundation points out.
>
>The Emory grant application identified goals such as the improvement of
>"government/FBO collaborations," the development of "models of effective
>ecumenical/interfaith collaboration and then, perhaps even more important,
>to build ecumenical relationships characterized by trust and a mutual
>appreciation of what each other brings to the task of building a just
>community."
>
>"This entire project seeks to equip participating FBOs to engage in complex
>partnerships," including "seeking out or inventing the religious role to be
>played," the application states.
>
>Emory's IHP "includes religious and spiritual" models.
>
>Emory admitted in correspondence with HHS that "some of the Foundations
>exercise a preference in their private grant making for competent
>applications which reflect their own religious heritage."
>
>In a brief filed on Dec. 17, the Foundation noted:
>
>"If the government wants to use intermediaries as its agents, then the
>agent must be as evenhanded as the Constitution requires of the government
>itself. The opportunity for shenanigans and manipulation otherwise is too
>great, and even if good faith is assumed, the question perturbs as to why
>community based organizations do not have the same opportunity to receive
>federal funding as faith-based organizations."
>
>* * *
>
>The Foundation's challenge of HHS funding of Mentor Kids USA--a
>Phoenix-based program working only with Christian, church-going mentors who
>sign a fundamentalist Christian mission statement--resulted in suspension
>of the public grant on Dec. 15 by HHS. MentorKids USA was told to submit a
>"corrective" remedy by today.
>
>MentorKids (also known as MatchPoint) engages in "Friendship Evangelism,"
>and describes itself as a "church-based Christian ministry whose mission is
>to restore youth at risk of becoming chronic offenders to protective
>relationships with their families, communities, and Creator." Mentors'
>objective is "to replace the youth's distorted images of self and others
>with new images rooted in Christ." Mentors "must have a personal
>relationship with God through Jesus Christ."
>
>They must submit monthly reports about whether the mentee "seems to be
>progressing in relationship with God," how often they have "discussed God,"
>"participated in Bible Study," "Attended Church" or "accepted Christ this
>month." Mentors must also submit an essay with their application form about
>their "Personal Testimony" with Jesus and "how you might be able to share
>your Christian faith with a youth." Its website advertises that "mentors
>are equipped to share the good news of who Jesus is and how He can provide
>a future and hope for everyone."
>
>HHS is now seeking for dismissal of this part of the Foundation's lawsuit
>on grounds of "mootness." MentorKids had already received at least $75,000
>in federal funds. The Foundation's lawsuit called not just for suspension
>of public funding but an injunction to HHS "to adopt and implement an
>effective plan to prevent further funding of faith-based mentoring programs
>that integrate and encourage faith as part of the mentoring protocol."
>
>"The Establishment Clause prohibits the 'attempt to convert' at public
>expense, which is the objective of MatchPoint's Mentoring Program," and
>also prohibits "forced taxpayer support of religion by nonbelievers, as
>much as forced participation in religious-based services," the Foundation
>motion stated.
>
>News media wishing to see legal documents on this case may contact Annie
>Laurie Gaylor at 608/256-5800 or algaylor@....
>
>See also:
>
>Health & Human Services Suspends Funds to Faith-based Mentoring Group Being
>Sued by Watchdog Foundation
>December 20, 2004
>http://www.ffrf.org/news/2004/mentorsuspend.php
>
>Freethought Watchdog Group Sues over HHS Funding of Arizona Faith-based
>Mentoring Program in First-of-its-Kind Legal Challenge
>November 26, 2004
>http://www.ffrf.org/news/2004/mentorkids.php
>
>Freethought Watchdog Group Takes First Challenge of White House & Cabinet
>Faith-Based Offices
>June 17, 2004
>http://www.ffrf.org/news/2004/faithbased_suit.php
>
>
>................................................................
>This E-News is courtesy of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, PO Box
>750, Madison WI 53701. If you no longer wish to receive FFRF updates and
>alerts, simply reply and ask to be removed.
>
>The Freedom From Religion Foundation is a national association of
>freethinkers (atheists and agnostics) working to keep church and state
>separate since 1978. For more information, go to http://www.ffrf.org.

>From: Larry Mundinger <lmundinger@...>
>Reply-To: lmundinger@...
>To: lmundinger@...
>Subject: Update - American Atheists National Convention
>Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 13:52:26 -0500
>
>American Atheists National Convention
>March 25-27, 2005
>UPDATE
>
>    VETERAN JOURNALIST JACK GERMOND JOINS SPEAKER ROSTER FOR
>            2005 AMERICAN ATHEISTS NATIONAL CONVENTION!
>
>JACK W. GERMOND, one of the living legends of contemporary American
>journalism, will be among the speakers at the American Atheists National
>Convention slated for March 25-27, 2005 in Philadelphia, PA.  He has been a
>newspaperman for more than 50 years covering political affairs for the
>Gannet Newspapers, Baltimore Sun and Washington Star.
>
>With Jules Witcover, Germond wrote the popular "Politics Today" syndicated
>column carried by Tribune News Serves.  There are authors of "Blue Smoke &
>Mirrors: How Reagan Won and Why Carter Lost the Election of 1980," "Mad As
>Hell: Revolt at the Ballot Box 1992," and other topical books.  Mr.
>Germond's latest book, "Fat Man in A Middle Seat: Forty Years of Covering
>Politics" is an autobiographical survey of his four decades as a political
>reporter.
>
>Germond has also been a regular guest on public affairs television programs
>including "The McLaughlin Group."  He is now a regular panelist on "Inside
>Washington."  He is a native of Boston, and a graduate of the University of
>Missouri with degrees in journalism and history.
>
>There will be an author signing with Mr. Germond at the Convention.
>
>For further information about the American Atheists National Convention,
>and to register online using our secure transaction server, visit
>http://www.atheists.org/convention .
>
>WHO & WHAT: Journalist and political writer Jack Germond at the American
>Atheists National Convention.
>
>WHEN: March 25-27, 2005
>
>WHERE: Hyatt Regency Philadelphia at Penn's Landing, Philadelphia, PA
>
>MORE INFO: http://www.atheists.org/convention
>
>(AMERICAN ATHEISTS is a nationwide movement that defends civil rights for
>Atheists; works for the total separation of church and state; and addresses
>issues of First Amendment public policy.)

--- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "Clyde Baxley" <heapadog@h...>
wrote, in part:
> >
> American Atheists National Convention
> March 25-27, 2005
> UPDATE
> >
> VETERAN JOURNALIST JACK GERMOND JOINS SPEAKER ROSTER FOR
> 2005 AMERICAN ATHEISTS NATIONAL CONVENTION!
> >
> JACK W. GERMOND. . .has been a newspaperman
> for more than 50 years. . .Germond has also
> been a regular guest on public affairs television
> programs including "The McLaughlin Group."

I remember watching Germond on "The McLaughlin Group".  I thought he
must be dead by now.  I guess not.

Clyde,

What is the American Atheist organization, or its members, saying
about the recent flap over Antony G.N. Flew's comments that some are
interpreting as some big change to some form of theism on his part?

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

That's an interesting story.  I remember being taught about tsunamis in school,
and I never forgot it because the phenomenon always fascinated me.  We read
Pearl S Buck's "The Big Wave" in school as well, so perhaps that's why I
remembered the signs so vividly.  Since I have a lifelong fear of water, even
the idea of it is a nightmare to me.  That probably had a great deal of impact
on why I recall it so well even many years later.

When I heard about it over the holidays, in my mind's eye I actually pictured
the ocean receding and then the giant tidal wave headed toward the beach.  I
wondered if anyone on the beach realized the significance of the suddenly
receding ocean and, if so, if any of them were able to escape.  Isn't it strange
how something you have read about will stick in your mind as a picture even
though you've never seen it even in the movies?

Such a tragedy that so many were killed!  Frankly, it amazes me that so many
survived, because a tsunami is catastrophic beyond imagination.  It's my
understanding that the countries hardest hit are not on the tsunami early
warning system because such events are extremely rare in that area.  They'll
probably never find the bodies of most victims, because if they were in the path
of the wave they were swept out to sea.  How very sad, and horrific.  I wonder
what passed through their minds.

I also understand that they expect disease to become rampant in those areas, so
the tragedy isn't over yet.

Best,
Tamara

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: rlbaty@...
   To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 4:05 PM
   Subject: "Quake Angel"? Out of the mouths of babes!



   Maybe it is a true story.  It is certainly a good story.

   ######################

   QUAKE ANGEL

   By DUNCAN LARCOMBE

   January 1, 2005 --  PHUKET, Thailand - Quick-thinking 10-year-old Tilly
   Smith is being hailed as a hero after saving her parents and dozens of
   fellow vacationers from the deadly tsunami - thanks to a school
   geography lesson.

   Tilly warned the doubting adults at a resort that a massive tidal wave
   was about to strike - just minutes before the deadly tide rushed in and
   turned the resort into rubble. Tilly's family, from Surrey, England, was
   enjoying a day at Maikhao Beach last Sunday when the sea rushed out and
   began to bubble.

   The adults were curious, but Tilly froze in horror.

   "Mummy, we must get off the beach now!" she told her mother. "I think
   there's going to be a tsunami."

   The adults didn't understand until Tilly added the magic words: "A tidal
   wave."

   Her warning spread like wildfire. Within seconds, the beach was deserted
   - and it turned out to be one of the only places along the shores of
   Phuket where no one was killed or seriously injured.

   Last night, Tilly was being hailed as a savior.

   "I think it's phenomenal that Tilly's parents and the others on the
   beach are alive because she studied hard at school," said Craig Smith,
   the American manager of the JW Marriott Hotel where Tilly's family was
   staying.

   He said a tsunami is not like you see in the movies, where a huge wave
   wells up on the horizon and can be seen for miles off shore.

   "It is more like a sudden surge of water," he said. "There's very little
   warning. She's a hero."

   Tilly shrugged off the attention and modestly said, "Last term, my
   geography teacher, Mr. Kearney, taught us about earthquakes and how they
   can cause tsunamis.

   "I was on the beach, and the water started to go funny.

   "I recognized what was happening and had a feeling there was going to be
   a tsunami."

   Her mother, Penny Smith, 43, recalled how their family, including
   Tilly's father Colin, 46, and 7-year-old younger sister, Holly, were
   enjoying a Christmas vacation before tragedy struck.

   "When the water went back, I was like most people on the beach. I wanted
   to walk down and look at what was going on," she recalled. "It was only
   when Tilly explained what she thought was going to happen that I had
   second thoughts.

   "We ran off the beach as fast as we could and went to the first floor of
   the hotel where it would be safe. Minutes later the water surged right
   over the beach and demolished everything in its path.

   "It was terrifying to watch but I'm very proud of her."

   The Sun newspaper

   #######################



   Support your local IRS office and ask Keith Sisman to change his vote before
another night falls!


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?
xml=/news/2005/01/02/weden02.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/01/02/ixworld.html

With its towering dinosaurs and a model of the Grand Canyon,
America's newest tourist attraction might look like the ideal
destination for fans of the film Jurassic Park.

The new multi-million-dollar Museum of Creation, which will open this
spring in Kentucky, will, however, be aimed not at film buffs, but at
the growing ranks of fundamentalist Christians in the United States.

It aims to promote the view that man was created in his present shape
by God, as the Bible states, rather than by a Darwinian process of
evolution, as scientists insist.

The centrepiece of the museum is a series of huge model dinosaurs,
built by the former head of design at Universal Studios, which are
portrayed as existing alongside man, contrary to received scientific
opinion that they lived millions of years apart.

Other exhibits include images of Adam and Eve, a model of Noah's Ark
and a planetarium demonstrating how God made the Earth in six days.

The museum, which has cost a mighty $25 million (£13 million) will be
the world's first significant natural history collection devoted to
creationist theory. It has been set up by Ken Ham, an Australian
evangelist, who runs Answers in Genesis, one of America's most
prominent creationist organisations. He said that his aim was to use
tourism, and the theme park's striking exhibits, to convert more
people to the view that the world and its creatures, including
dinosaurs, were created by God 6,000 years ago.

"We want people to be confronted by the dinosaurs," said Mr
Ham. "It's going to be a first class experience. Visitors are going
to be hit by the professionalism of this place. It is not going to be
done in an amateurish way. We are making a statement."

The museum's main building was completed recently, and work on the
entrance exhibit starts this week. The first phase of the museum,
which lies on a 47-acre site 10 miles from Cincinatti on the border
of Kentucky and Ohio, will open in the spring.

Market research companies hired by the museum are predicting at least
300,000 visitors in the first year, who will pay $10 (£5.80) each.

Among the projects still to be finished is a reconstruction of the
Grand Canyon, purportedly formed by the swirling waters of the Great
Flood – where visitors will "gape" at the bones of dinosaurs
that "hint of a terrible catastrophe", according to the museum's
publicity.

Mr Ham is particularly proud of a planned reconstruction of the
interior of Noah's Ark. "You will hear the water lapping, feel the
Ark rocking and perhaps even hear people outside screaming," he said.

More controversial exhibits deal with diseases and famine, which are
portrayed not as random disasters, but as the result of mankind's
sin. Mr Ham's Answers in Genesis movement blames the 1999 massacre at
Columbine High School in Colorado, in which two teenagers killed 12
classmates and a teacher before killing themselves, on evolutionist
teaching, claiming that the perpetrators believed in Darwin's
survival of the fittest.

Other exhibits in the museum will blame homosexuals for Aids. In
a "Bible Authority Room" visitors are warned: "Everyone who rejects
his history – including six-day creation and Noah's flood – is
`wilfully' ignorant.''

Elsewhere, animated figures will be used to recreate the Garden of
Eden, while in another room, visitors will see a tyrannosaurus rex
pursuing Adam and Eve after their fall from grace. "That's the real
terror that Adam's sin unleashed," visitors will be warned.

A display showing ancient Babylon will deal with the Tower of Babel
and "unravel the origin of so-called races'', while the final section
will show the life of Christ, as an animated angel proclaims the
coming of the Saviour and a 3D depiction of the crucifixion.

In keeping with modern museum trends, there will also be a cafe with
a terrace to "breathe in the fresh air of God's creation'', and a
shop "crammed'' with creationist souvenirs, including T-shirts and
books such as A is for Adam and Dinky Dinosaur: Creation Days.

The museum's opening will reinforce the burgeoning creationist
movement and evangelical Christianity in the US, which gained further
strength with the re-election of President Bush in November.

Followers of creationism have been pushing for their theories to be
reintegrated into American schoolroom teaching ever since the
celebrated 1925 "Scopes Monkey Trial", when US courts upheld the
right of a teacher to use textbooks that included evolutionary
theory.

In 1987, the US Supreme Court reinforced that position by banning the
teaching of creationism in public schools on the grounds of laws that
separate state and Church.

Since then, however, many schools – particularly in America's
religious Deep South – have got around the ban by teaching the theory
of "intelligent design", which claims that evolutionary ideas alone
still leave large gaps in understanding.

"Since President Bush's re-election we have been getting more
membership applications than we can handle,'' said Mr Ham, who
expects not just the devout, but also the curious, to flock through
the turnstiles. "The evolutionary elite will be getting a wake-up
call."

##############################

Interestingly enough, Ken Ham of Answers in Genesis doesn't like the
idea that Von Daniken appears to have gotten up his own bigger
museum/amusement park.

You can read Ken's article at:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2005/0103mystery_park.asp

Some informed critics figure that Ham's and Von Daniken's ideas are
pretty much equivalent.

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

I was invited to join Nelta's recently started list at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Christians_and_War/

I think it has public archives.

I got off to a pretty good start and helped some folks there was some
basic factual information that was in dispute.

Along the way, a former antagonist of mine got wound up as if to derail
my efforts.

He's a public defender out of Ava, Missouri.  His name is Robert H.
Brandon.  He recently boasted of having argued a case before the
Missouri Supreme Court, and losing.

I haven't been able to get him to post any of his cases for reference.
He boasted of using "rile-them-up" tactics to win cases.

I'm just wondering if anyone might be able to get some more information
about his activities as a lawyer and post here for reference.  I think
he practiced law in another state before moving to Missouri (it may be
in the archives somewhere).

Any help in getting publicly available information on Robert H. Brandon
would be appreciated.  I would kinda like to know more about the fellow
that has hounded me on so many lists (though I have typically beat him
down on those matters I have chosen to discuss, notwithstanding his
efforts to believe otherwise).

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

Robert, Go to MartindaleHubble.com
see if you don't find all kinds of information on him there


rlbaty@... wrote:

I was invited to join Nelta's recently started list at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Christians_and_War/

I think it has public archives.

I got off to a pretty good start and helped some folks there was some
basic factual information that was in dispute.

Along the way, a former antagonist of mine got wound up as if to derail
my efforts.

He's a public defender out of Ava, Missouri.  His name is Robert H.
Brandon.  He recently boasted of having argued a case before the
Missouri Supreme Court, and losing.

I haven't been able to get him to post any of his cases for reference.
He boasted of using "rile-them-up" tactics to win cases.

I'm just wondering if anyone might be able to get some more information
about his activities as a lawyer and post here for reference.  I think
he practiced law in another state before moving to Missouri (it may be
in the archives somewhere).

Any help in getting publicly available information on Robert H. Brandon
would be appreciated.  I would kinda like to know more about the fellow
that has hounded me on so many lists (though I have typically beat him
down on those matters I have chosen to discuss, notwithstanding his
efforts to believe otherwise).

Sincerely,
Robert Baty




Support your local IRS office and ask Keith Sisman to change his vote before
another night falls!


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Scott Foster
Foster & Etheridge Associates, Inc.
850-936-5219 or 850-936-4848.



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
  Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've never heard of the guy before, but here's a summary of the Missouri Supreme
Court case:

SC86016
State ex rel. Richard A. Cuthberton v. The Honorable John Jacobs
Ozark County
Conflict between local rule and Supreme Court rule allowing for change of judge

In December 2003 in Ozark County, Richard Cuthberton was charged with five
misdemeanor counts. He made his initial court appearance before Judge John
Jacobs. At that time, a plea of not guilty essentially was entered, and his case
was set for trial. Cuthberton sought a trial by a jury. The motion was granted,
and the case was transferred to circuit court. Pursuant to a local rule
requiring the associate circuit judge who started with a case to be assigned to
remain with the case even after a jury trial is granted, Cuthberton's case was
set for a jury trial before Judge Jacobs. Cuthberton subsequently filed a motion
for a change of judge, which the court overruled. He now seeks a writ requiring
the court to grant his request.

Cuthberton argues that Judge Jacobs lacks jurisdiction to preside over his
trial. He contends the plain meaning of Rule 32.07 allows a defendant to apply
for a change of trial judge within 10 days of the designation of that judge if
that designation occurs more than 10 days after the initial plea is entered. He
asserts that, if such a motion for change of judge is filed timely, Rule 32.07
requires the judge to sustain the motion promptly. Cuthberton argues that, to
the extent the court is interpreting a local circuit court rule to
"pre-designate" the associate circuit judge to preside over any misdemeanor jury
trial, such an interpretation is misplaced. He contends that he should have 10
days from the designation of the trial judge to file his motion, even where the
trial judge assigned also was the associate circuit judge who presided over the
entry of the plea. He asserts that such an interpretation is prohibited by Rule
32.07, is unduly burdensome to a defendant, and is inconsistent with Supreme
Court rules and well-established law.

The state responds that neither a writ of mandamus nor of prohibition should be
granted. It argues Cuthberton's application for a change of judge was untimely
because it was not filed 10 days after Judge Jacobs initially was designated as
the judge. The state contends the local rule requires that a case set for jury
trial be transferred to the associate division of the circuit court and that the
certifying associate circuit judge be assigned to follow the case and remain the
trial judge. The state asserts that the court's interpretation of the local rule
as not constituting a new appointment of a trial judge is correct. It responds
that the rule is a standing order and does not unduly create a burden on a
defendant. The state argues that, if a writ were to issue, its effect would be
to create a special rule for change of judge that pertains only to circuits in
which jury trials are not held in associate division courtrooms or in which
centralized filing systems are not used.

If you have Adobe Acrobat on your computer, you can access the briefs at
http://www.courts.mo.gov/SUP/index.nsf/fe8feff4659e0b7b8625699f0079eddf/d1cbd24e\
96247a1086256f1d0076f428?OpenDocument .  It looks pretty doggone boring to me
because it just involves procedure in a five-count misdemeanor case, so I'm not
sure about him riling people up.  Since he claims the judge had no jurisdiction
to hear the case, I assume he lost at trial level on the charges.

You can also contact the Missouri Supreme Court if you want hard copies of the
briefs.  It's on the web at http://www.courts.mo.gov/sup/index.nsf.  Their phone
number is 573-751-4144; their fax is 573-751-7514.  That's pretty expensive
though, because courts generally charge a per-page fee.

Brandon has no Martindale entry, but that's not unusual for public defenders.

Best,
Tamara


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: rlbaty@...
   To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 9:38 PM
   Subject: Checking on a lawyer!



   I was invited to join Nelta's recently started list at:

   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Christians_and_War/

   I think it has public archives.

   I got off to a pretty good start and helped some folks there was some
   basic factual information that was in dispute.

   Along the way, a former antagonist of mine got wound up as if to derail
   my efforts.

   He's a public defender out of Ava, Missouri.  His name is Robert H.
   Brandon.  He recently boasted of having argued a case before the
   Missouri Supreme Court, and losing.

   I haven't been able to get him to post any of his cases for reference.
   He boasted of using "rile-them-up" tactics to win cases.

   I'm just wondering if anyone might be able to get some more information
   about his activities as a lawyer and post here for reference.  I think
   he practiced law in another state before moving to Missouri (it may be
   in the archives somewhere).

   Any help in getting publicly available information on Robert H. Brandon
   would be appreciated.  I would kinda like to know more about the fellow
   that has hounded me on so many lists (though I have typically beat him
   down on those matters I have chosen to discuss, notwithstanding his
   efforts to believe otherwise).

   Sincerely,
   Robert Baty

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

All I can say is that at least it sounds better than Kent Hovind's "Dinosaur
Adventureland".  ;-)

Best,
Tamara

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: rlbaty50
   To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 2:55 PM
   Subject: Creation museum to open soon!




   http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?
   xml=/news/2005/01/02/weden02.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/01/02/ixworld.html

   With its towering dinosaurs and a model of the Grand Canyon,
   America's newest tourist attraction might look like the ideal
   destination for fans of the film Jurassic Park.

   The new multi-million-dollar Museum of Creation, which will open this
   spring in Kentucky, will, however, be aimed not at film buffs, but at
   the growing ranks of fundamentalist Christians in the United States.

   It aims to promote the view that man was created in his present shape
   by God, as the Bible states, rather than by a Darwinian process of
   evolution, as scientists insist.

   The centrepiece of the museum is a series of huge model dinosaurs,
   built by the former head of design at Universal Studios, which are
   portrayed as existing alongside man, contrary to received scientific
   opinion that they lived millions of years apart.

   Other exhibits include images of Adam and Eve, a model of Noah's Ark
   and a planetarium demonstrating how God made the Earth in six days.

   The museum, which has cost a mighty $25 million (£13 million) will be
   the world's first significant natural history collection devoted to
   creationist theory. It has been set up by Ken Ham, an Australian
   evangelist, who runs Answers in Genesis, one of America's most
   prominent creationist organisations. He said that his aim was to use
   tourism, and the theme park's striking exhibits, to convert more
   people to the view that the world and its creatures, including
   dinosaurs, were created by God 6,000 years ago.

   "We want people to be confronted by the dinosaurs," said Mr
   Ham. "It's going to be a first class experience. Visitors are going
   to be hit by the professionalism of this place. It is not going to be
   done in an amateurish way. We are making a statement."

   The museum's main building was completed recently, and work on the
   entrance exhibit starts this week. The first phase of the museum,
   which lies on a 47-acre site 10 miles from Cincinatti on the border
   of Kentucky and Ohio, will open in the spring.

   Market research companies hired by the museum are predicting at least
   300,000 visitors in the first year, who will pay $10 (£5.80) each.

   Among the projects still to be finished is a reconstruction of the
   Grand Canyon, purportedly formed by the swirling waters of the Great
   Flood - where visitors will "gape" at the bones of dinosaurs
   that "hint of a terrible catastrophe", according to the museum's
   publicity.

   Mr Ham is particularly proud of a planned reconstruction of the
   interior of Noah's Ark. "You will hear the water lapping, feel the
   Ark rocking and perhaps even hear people outside screaming," he said.

   More controversial exhibits deal with diseases and famine, which are
   portrayed not as random disasters, but as the result of mankind's
   sin. Mr Ham's Answers in Genesis movement blames the 1999 massacre at
   Columbine High School in Colorado, in which two teenagers killed 12
   classmates and a teacher before killing themselves, on evolutionist
   teaching, claiming that the perpetrators believed in Darwin's
   survival of the fittest.

   Other exhibits in the museum will blame homosexuals for Aids. In
   a "Bible Authority Room" visitors are warned: "Everyone who rejects
   his history - including six-day creation and Noah's flood - is
   `wilfully' ignorant.''

   Elsewhere, animated figures will be used to recreate the Garden of
   Eden, while in another room, visitors will see a tyrannosaurus rex
   pursuing Adam and Eve after their fall from grace. "That's the real
   terror that Adam's sin unleashed," visitors will be warned.

   A display showing ancient Babylon will deal with the Tower of Babel
   and "unravel the origin of so-called races'', while the final section
   will show the life of Christ, as an animated angel proclaims the
   coming of the Saviour and a 3D depiction of the crucifixion.

   In keeping with modern museum trends, there will also be a cafe with
   a terrace to "breathe in the fresh air of God's creation'', and a
   shop "crammed'' with creationist souvenirs, including T-shirts and
   books such as A is for Adam and Dinky Dinosaur: Creation Days.

   The museum's opening will reinforce the burgeoning creationist
   movement and evangelical Christianity in the US, which gained further
   strength with the re-election of President Bush in November.

   Followers of creationism have been pushing for their theories to be
   reintegrated into American schoolroom teaching ever since the
   celebrated 1925 "Scopes Monkey Trial", when US courts upheld the
   right of a teacher to use textbooks that included evolutionary
   theory.

   In 1987, the US Supreme Court reinforced that position by banning the
   teaching of creationism in public schools on the grounds of laws that
   separate state and Church.

   Since then, however, many schools - particularly in America's
   religious Deep South - have got around the ban by teaching the theory
   of "intelligent design", which claims that evolutionary ideas alone
   still leave large gaps in understanding.

   "Since President Bush's re-election we have been getting more
   membership applications than we can handle,'' said Mr Ham, who
   expects not just the devout, but also the curious, to flock through
   the turnstiles. "The evolutionary elite will be getting a wake-up
   call."

   ##############################







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another night falls!



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Von Daniken's park sounds more high-tech, but I'm not about to travel to
Switzerland to see it.

I remember when that book was big.  I also remember laughing at it.  Then again,
I also laugh when I hear the YECs say that dinosaurs lived alongside people, so
it's six of one and a half-dozen of the other.

Best,
Tamara

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: rlbaty50
   To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 3:00 PM
   Subject: Re: Creation museum to open soon!



   Interestingly enough, Ken Ham of Answers in Genesis doesn't like the
   idea that Von Daniken appears to have gotten up his own bigger
   museum/amusement park.

   You can read Ken's article at:

   http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2005/0103mystery_park.asp

   Some informed critics figure that Ham's and Von Daniken's ideas are
   pretty much equivalent.

   Sincerely,
   Robert Baty





   Support your local IRS office and ask Keith Sisman to change his vote before
another night falls!


         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Copied from:

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Christians_and_War/

Bobby wrote, in part, in response to Brandon's claim that his
relative was a "traitor":

> My grandfather, Lt. Gen. A. P. Hill,
> was no traitor. He was killed in battle
> in Petersburg Virgina, in the uniform
> of his country, definding that country.

To which the Brandon responded:

> Not true: he was first commissioned an officer
> of the United States Army and then abandoned
> his commission to take up arms against that
> country.
>
> Those are simply the facts. I have ancestors
> who also took arms against their country. They
> are no less my ancestors, and they were
> no less wrong, no less disloyal.

One of the more famous of Brandon's "traitors", of course, was
Matthew Fontaine Maury (well-known amongst the churches of Christ for
other reasons).  He happens to have formed one of the primary
purposes of my little list at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/

It is reported that one of the reasons Maury didn't get the
recognition he deserved was because he was considered a "traitor" by
many.

We have a resident Maury expert as a member of my little list, though
he is sometimes slow to get involved.

It might be nice to see the Brandon engage, or attempt to engage my
Maury expert on my list.  One doesn't have to be a member to post,
though membership does get you into those wonderful photo pages, poll
pages and files pages.

Brandon, you are welcome to try and "rile" my Maury expert with your
perspectives on Matthew Fontaine Maury, et al on my little list.
I'll post a copy of this note over there and maybe see if we can't
get up a little interest.

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

And so I followed up with:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Christians_and_War/message/242

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Christians_and_War/message/243

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

-- Brandon wrote:
> Those are simply the facts. I have ancestors
> who also took arms against their country. They
> are no less my ancestors, and they were
> no less wrong, no less disloyal.

As a rule, the Southern leaders were extremely patriotic and
loyal to Liberty, Justice, and the American Way. The US
Constitution allowed state secession. When the federal
powers under the Constitution continued to be abusive and
usurpative, the Southern states optioned to declare their
freedom and right to self rule just as the original thirteen
states had done in revolutionary war times.

The unnecessary War was forced by Lincoln against the wishes
of the majority of the North or the South.

Your link to Nelta's site is interesting. Government has
the God-given authority to bear the sword to protect good
people. But it also has the authority to wage only 'Just
War'. Very few of U.S. wars meet that standard. The
Revolutionary War and the Southern Defensive War are
examples of 'Just War'.

America has a history of warmongering. Obvious examples of
unjust war are the Mexican War, the Spanish American War and
many of the Indian Wars.

If it seems foreign to you that there are some rights which
transcend our American Government, you may be interested in
today's article by Walter E. Williams entitled:

Are we a republic or a democracy?

The link is at:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walterwilliams/ww20050105.shtml

He writes better than I. Although he does not mention the
Civil War era, his article discusses ideas that have been
trampled on since the days of tyrant Lincoln.

>From: Bart Meltzer <bmeltzer@...>
>To: Directors <bmeltzer@...>,Staff <bmeltzer@...>
>Subject: I AM AN ATHEIST
>Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 17:09:03 -0800
>
>This is from the Idaho state director, Susan Harrington.  Currently, there
>is some debate in the Idaho Atheists group about removing ³Atheists² from
>the groupıs name.  Thought you all may enjoy it.  I donıt think anyone
>could
>have said this better.
>
>Bart
>
>
>What do you think when you hear the word "independent" as in "independent
>thinker" or "independent person?" I, personally, think of it as a positive
>word with a positive meaning. However, it is created by adding the negating
>prefix "in" to an already existing word. That existing word is forgotten as
>the new word, in its entirety, takes on its own meaning.
>
>Another question: How many of you have ever publicly announced that you are
>an "Atheist?" I have. Many times. After the first look of surprise on
>peoples' faces, or exclamations of, "Oh, but she seems so nice," there is a
>definite tone of respect in the room. It may not be respect for "atheism"
>per se, but it is a respect toward a person's right TO BE an atheist and to
>exercise that right in this country by going in front of legislative
>committees and peers to testify and be part of the process of discourse.
>
>Try it...the legislative session in Idaho is about to begin. When a bill
>comes up that would give favoritism to religion, discriminate against the
>non-religious, further intermingle religion and government, and marginalize
>your rights to be a fully participating atheist citizen, then STAND UP and
>simply say, "I AM AN ATHEIST." It is the most important action you can take
>to point out to other people that you are an Atheist. Your very existence
>and your presence in the room as a real person putting a face to the term
>will define the term.
>
>Susan
>
>

snip

> Your link to Nelta's site is interesting. >

You and all others on Robert's would be welcome on
Christians_and_War-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Government has
> the God-given authority to bear the sword to protect good
> people. >

Yes God gave the secular governements the right to do whatever it took
to take care of the evil-doers.  However, He did not give Christians
the right to do so.  Christians have a highter calling.  They are to
be lights to the world....that light being Jesus who lives in the
Christians.

But it also has the authority to wage only 'Just
> War'. Very few of U.S. wars meet that standard. The
> Revolutionary War and the Southern Defensive War are
> examples of 'Just War'.>

Actually, the secular governements can fight any war they see fit.
That is THEIR business, not the business of the Christians.

Nelta

http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=369

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

> http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=369

The article provides the following as the most recent update
regarding Antony Flew:

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #

(excerpts from article)

Update (January 2005)

Antony Flew has retracted one of his recent assertions. In a letter
to me dated 29 December 2004, Flew concedes:

I now realize that I have made a fool of myself by believing that
there were no presentable theories of the development of inanimate
matter up to the first living creature capable of reproduction.
He blames his error on being "misled" by Richard Dawkins because
Dawkins "has never been reported as referring to any promising work
on the production of a theory of the development of living matter,"
even though this is false (e.g. Richard Dawkins and L. D.
Hurst, "Evolutionary Chemistry: Life in a Test Tube," Nature 360
(6399): pp. 25-26, 5 November 1992) and hardly relevant: it was
Flew's responsibility to check the state of the field (there are
several books by actual protobiologists published in just the last
five years), rather than wait for the chance possibility that one
particular evolutionist would write on the subject. Now that he has
done what he was supposed to do in the first place, he has retracted
his false statement about the current state of protobiological
science.

Flew also makes another admission: "I have been mistaught by Gerald
Schroeder." He says "it was precisely because he appeared to be so
well qualified as a physicist (which I am not) that I was never
inclined to question what he said about physics." Apart from his
unreasonable plan of trusting a physicist on the subject of
biochemistry (after all, the relevant field is biochemistry, not
physics--yet it would seem Flew does not recognize the difference),
this attitude seems to pervade Flew's method of truthseeking, of
looking to a single author for authoritative information and never
checking their claims (or, as in the case of Dawkins, presumed lack
of claims). As Flew admitted to me, and to Stuart Wavell of the
London Times, and Duncan Crary of the Humanist Network News, he has
not made any effort to check up on the current state of things in any
relevant field (see "No Longer Atheist, Flew Stands by 'Presumption
of Atheism'" and "In the Beginning There Was Something"). Flew has
thus abandoned the very standards of inquiry that led the rest of us
to atheism. It would seem the only way to God is to jettison
responsible scholarship.

Despite all this, Flew has not retracted his belief in God, as far as
I can tell. But in response to theists citing him in their favor,
Flew strangely calls his "recent very modest defection from my
previous unbelief" a "more radical form of unbelief," and implies
that the concept of God might actually be self-refuting, for "surely
there is material here for a new and more fundamental challenge to
the very conception of God as an omnipotent spirit," but, Flew
says, "I am just too old at the age of nearly 82 to initiate and
conduct a major and super radical controversy about the
conceivability of the putative concept of God as a spirit."

This would appear to be his excuse for everything: he won't
investigate the evidence because it's too hard. Yet he will declare
beliefs in the absence of proper inquiry.

Theists would do well to drop the example of Flew. Because his
willfully sloppy scholarship can only help to make belief look
ridiculous.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #

I would tend to agree that it looks like theists would do well not to
make much over the Flew situation.

Similarly, I think the good brethren would do well not to promote Dr.
Bert as some leading light in the "creation-science" movement.  Dr.
Bert's blunders are not unlike the way Flew's blunders have been
portrayed above.

And we are still waiting for Dr. Bert to give us the details as to
where he came up with his Maury statue claim (and a few other things).

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

I do not find that there is anything more inherently independent about the
process of critical thinking that leads one to become an atheist than that which
leads one to become a person of faith.  The independence of an individual's
mind is of course a relative thing, and an atheist may be as weak-minded as the
next person.  It should also be noted that independence of any sort is
something of an illusion.  The wise man notes and measures the effect of his
influences, rather than denies them.

Cassondra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 1/6/2005 7:26:46 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
nib@... writes:
Yes God gave the secular governements the right to do whatever it took
to take care of the evil-doers.  However, He did not give Christians
the right to do so.  Christians have a highter calling.  They are to
be lights to the world....that light being Jesus who lives in the
Christians.

That is an interesting argument.  However, it would necessarily require that
secular government and the armed forces consist entirely of wicked men.  Aside
from the disturbing consequences of that bizarre notion, the entire principle
is ultimately self-defeating.  Christians desire to spread the light of the
gospel to as many souls as possible.  If they succeed, then there will be
no-one left who is now permitted to operate the secular government and protect
the
state.  Thus, the more Christian the state, the more doomed it is to fail.
This makes it in the best interests of the state to limit or prohibit Christian
activity, so that the state might prosper.  The Bible promotes the Christian
as the ideal citizen, one who is to live at peace with his fellow man as much
as lies within him and who is a strength to his government rather than a
weakness.  This protects the Christian from undue persecution.  However, the
conclusions of your argument practically require persecution from any reasonable
government.

Cassondra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Another great example of "independent" thinking?! ;o)

Cassondra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

So if they remove "Atheists" from the name "Idaho Atheists", what are they
going to call themselves?  "Idaho"?  LOL

I'm not sure I understand this woman's point.  I really don't think the
average person respects an atheist any more than they respect any other
belief system.  For those with a strong feeling about it one way or the
other, many if not most disrespect them for various reasons.  So I think
she's misinterpreting what others are really thinking simply because it
makes her feel better about herself and her belief system, and not because
it has any basis in fact or reality.

Atheism is a belief system, by the way.  It is the belief that there is no
God, and all the implications that go with that.  They just pretend like it
means they have no belief system, and therefore are somehow superior to
those with a religious belief (perhaps because they consider themselves to
be "independent thinkers"?)

There are a lot of independent thinkers who have decided that they believe
in God.  Atheists think that's an impossibility.  That tells me they're less
independent thinkers - since a truly independent thinker would allow for the
possibility that other beliefs could also be correct - and far more
closed-minded than they like to admit.

Best,
Tamara


----- Original Message -----
From: "Clyde Baxley" <heapadog@...>
To: <stellar4@...>; <sean_dem@...>; <RayinAk@...>;
<pniehuis@...>; <Pelt50@...>; <mjkoenig@...>;
<mcarey@...>; <Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com>; <ludwig@...>;
<Judithinalaska@...>; <jsykes@...>; <hotmetal@...>;
<honeydo@...>; <gigigillis@...>;
<fpasquale@...>; <fhillman@...>; <fayvong@...>;
<dpalmatier@...>; <billpearcy@...>; <ahalcro@...>
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 11:57 PM
Subject: FW: I AM AN ATHEIST


>
>
>
> >From: Bart Meltzer <bmeltzer@...>
> >To: Directors <bmeltzer@...>,Staff <bmeltzer@...>
> >Subject: I AM AN ATHEIST
> >Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 17:09:03 -0800
> >
> >This is from the Idaho state director, Susan Harrington.  Currently,
there
> >is some debate in the Idaho Atheists group about removing ³Atheists² from
> >the groupıs name.  Thought you all may enjoy it.  I donıt think anyone
> >could
> >have said this better.
> >
> >Bart
> >
> >
> >What do you think when you hear the word "independent" as in "independent
> >thinker" or "independent person?" I, personally, think of it as a
positive
> >word with a positive meaning. However, it is created by adding the
negating
> >prefix "in" to an already existing word. That existing word is forgotten
as
> >the new word, in its entirety, takes on its own meaning.
> >
> >Another question: How many of you have ever publicly announced that you
are
> >an "Atheist?" I have. Many times. After the first look of surprise on
> >peoples' faces, or exclamations of, "Oh, but she seems so nice," there is
a
> >definite tone of respect in the room. It may not be respect for "atheism"
> >per se, but it is a respect toward a person's right TO BE an atheist and
to
> >exercise that right in this country by going in front of legislative
> >committees and peers to testify and be part of the process of discourse.
> >
> >Try it...the legislative session in Idaho is about to begin. When a bill
> >comes up that would give favoritism to religion, discriminate against the
> >non-religious, further intermingle religion and government, and
marginalize
> >your rights to be a fully participating atheist citizen, then STAND UP
and
> >simply say, "I AM AN ATHEIST." It is the most important action you can
take
> >to point out to other people that you are an Atheist. Your very existence
> >and your presence in the room as a real person putting a face to the term
> >will define the term.
> >
> >Susan
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Support your local IRS office and ask Keith Sisman to change his vote
before another night falls!
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, cassondrawrites@a... wrote, in
part, regarding Nelta's position:

> (I)t would necessarily require that
> secular government and the armed forces
> consist entirely of wicked men.

I think that is the position that Nelta has basically confirmed on
her own list in recent days.

Well, maybe she would allow for a Christian to be mailman or an IRS
Appeals Officer, but policeman, soldiers and others. . .only wicked
folks (i.e., non-Christians) should be involved in such things.

I don't think she's made an "argument" as you indicated. I just think
she's voiced her faulty opinion.

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

--- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "Tamara" <Legal_writer@h...>
wrote, in part:

> So if they remove "Atheists" from the name
> "Idaho Atheists", what are they
> going to call themselves?  "Idaho"?  LOL

When the earlier note from Clyde reference "Idaho Atheist group", I
was wondering if it included a discussion list.

There is one!  Here's the link:

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Idaho_Atheists/

It does not appear to have public archives and very, very little
activity; maybe only a couple of members.

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

--- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "rlbaty50" <rlbaty@w...> wrote:

> When the earlier note from Clyde reference "Idaho Atheist group", I
> was wondering if it included a discussion list.
>
> There is one!  Here's the link:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Idaho_Atheists/


Their website looks more interesting at:

> http://www.idahoatheists.org/

Sincerely,
Robert Baty