http://www.christianpost.com/news/should-christians-vote-for-a-mormon-66994/

(3)

From: Aaron Ulrich (Mormon Apologist)
Time/Date: 1:59 AM EDT on July 01, 2012

To NonAnonymous -

Well, you can add my answers to those questions.

Yes to all of those.

I don't beleive it because I worship Joseph smith,
but becaue I believe that he was a prophet of god.

Just like Moses or Abraham, or Elijah.

(4)

From: NonAnonymous (aka Robert Baty)
Time/Date: 10:49 AM EDT on July 01, 2012

To Aaron Ulrich -

Thanks for your interest and participation.

------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------

Issues/Answers:

Poll Issues:

> (A) God revealed the doctrine of
> plural marriage to Joseph Smith?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes

> (B) God commanded Joseph Smith
> to live it?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich Mormon) - Yes

> (C) Joseph Smith taught the
> doctrine to some associates?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - Yes
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes

> (D) Joseph Smith and a number of
> his associates entered into plural
> marriages?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - Yes
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes

> (E) Joseph Smith and his associates
> needed and received personal inspiration
> from God to help them enter in to
> plural marriages?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes

Issues Taken From "Official" Mormon Webpage at:

http://classic.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?index=16&locale=0&sourceId=9887ec6f164\
b2110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

My Mormon Contacts Asked to Give an Answer:

??? = They have not answered

> Brian Casaday (Mormon) - ???
> Daniel Dinnell (Mormon) - ???
> Sergio Roa Prado (Mormon) - ???
> Carmen J. Lopez (Mormon) - ???
> Robert Kohutek (Mormon) - ???
> Doug Forbes (Mormon) - ???
> Eva WB (Mormon) - ???
> Mavin Swapp (Mormon) - ???
> Sue Brown (Mormon) - ???
> Fred Park (Mormon) - ???
> Joe Mormon (Mormon) - ???
> Paul Brown (Mormon) - ???
> Ryan Mark Smith (Mormon) - ???
> Blaine Jay Smith (Mormon) - ???
> Cassandra Showell Hedelius (Mormon) - ???
> Jonathan Trottier (Mormon) - ???
> Takashi - ???
> Farnsworth - ???
> Baltzer - ???
> Bonnie Hamilton (Mormon) - ???
> Stephen Buck (Mormon) - ???
> Steve Harward (Mormon) - ???
> Christopher Kirkland - ???
> Jana Fillmore Nielson (Mormon) - ???
> Dwight Rogers (Mormon) - ???
> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - "Yes" to all
> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - "Yes" to all
> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - "Yes" to all
> George de Metz (Mormon) - "Yes" to all
> "k0Nod541" (Mormon) - ???
> Richard Winmill (Mormon) - ???
> Thomas Johnson (Mormon) - ???
> baguioboy (Mormon) - ???
> Phillip Evans (Mormon) - ???
> Richard Wadsworth (Mormon) - ???
> Don Pritchard (Mormon) - ???
> Corwin Slack (Mormon) - ???
> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - "Yes" to all

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

Linda has already answered "yes" to all the poll issues, indicating she believes
all the claims to be true.

Now she has been popping off on The Christian Post about the matter, as shown
below:

http://blogs.christianpost.com/bookstop/the-mormonizing-of-america-book-excerpt-\
pt-4-10613/

(1)

From: lindasdf (Mormon Apologist/aka Linda Fiatoa)
Time/Date: 5:10 AM EDT on July 01, 2012

To NonAnonymous (aka Robert Baty)-

I don't understand why this "poll" of yours is so
gosh darned important.

(2)

From: NonAnonymous (aka Robert Baty)
Time/Date: 11:12 AM on July 01, 2012

To lindasdf (aka Linda Fiatoa) -

If you would give yourself to studying the poll issues,
their history, and the history of the poll, you would
learn of its importance.

Otherwise, Linda, I think such a pop-off response is
all too typical of Mormon evasions in such cases.

Try using your moral influence on your fellow,
evasive Mormons and try to get them to take part
in the poll and openly, honestly discuss it various
aspects.

This too may help you to understand and appreciate
its importance. It's about the poll issues, but not
just about the poll issues.

A better place for such a discussion would be at my
place, and you do know the way there.

However, I will try accommodate legitimate interests
here and/or there.

Sincerely,
Robert Baty
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/ l

(3)

From: lindasdf (Mormon Apologist/aka Linda Fiatoa)
Time/Date: 5:00 AM EDT on July 01, 2012

To Richard Cannon (Non-Mormon) -

Yes, it should be reported accurately.

However, there is nothing we can do about those,
like the CP, who want to report things INaccurately.

I have voiced my opinions directly to CP about what
I can only describe as their deceit.

They don't seem to care.

(4)

From: NonAnonymous (aka Robert Baty)
Time/Date: 11:16 AM EDT on July 01, 2012

To lindasdf (aka Linda Fiatoa) -

Some of the Mormons I have dealt with here on the
CP have clearly acted in a manner consistent with
"deceit", such as you express some concern about
regarding CP management.

I think Mormons care, and some of them have cares
that would cause them to be "deceptive" with regard
to me and the issues I have sought to be considered.

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

(5)

From: lindasdf (Mormon Apologist/aka Linda Fiatoa)
Time/Date: 4:51 AM EDT on July 01, 2012

To NonAnonymous (aka Robert Baty) -

You still haven't asked us what we believe.

(6)

From: NonAnonymous (aka Robert Baty)
Time/Date: 11:01 AM EDT on July 01, 2012

To lindasdf (Mormon Apologist/aka Linda Fiatoa) -

Linda, you have already told me that YOU, a Mormon,
believe all the poll claims to be true.

I asked you what you believe and you told me.

By the way, Aaron Ulrich has now joined you in
answering "yes" to all five claims.

Here's the updated poll results:

> (A) God revealed the doctrine of
> plural marriage to Joseph Smith?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes

> (B) God commanded Joseph Smith
> to live it?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich Mormon) - Yes

> (C) Joseph Smith taught the
> doctrine to some associates?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - Yes
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes

> (D) Joseph Smith and a number of
> his associates entered into plural
> marriages?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - Yes
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes

> (E) Joseph Smith and his associates
> needed and received personal inspiration
> from God to help them enter in to
> plural marriages?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes

Linda, you know your way to my place. If there are other things about the poll
and your beliefs wherein we might share a mutual interest, you are welcome to
take them up there; a much preferred venue, in my opinion.

Sincerely,
Robert Baty
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/

(7)

From: lindasdf (Mormon Apologist/aka Linda Fiatoa)
Time/Date: 4:46 AM EDT on July 01, 2012

To NonAnonymous (aka Robert Baty) -

I still say, that those who believe don't care,
and those who care don't want to believe.

(8)

From: NonAnonymous (aka Robert Baty)
Time/Date: 10:58 AM EDT on July 01, 2012

To lindasdf (Mormon Apologist/aka Linda Fiatoa) -

What are you talking about, Linda?

---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------

Oops!  I think I left these two out of the latest exchange with Linda; because
it took place on a different CP webpage:

http://www.christianpost.com/news/poll-mormons-dont-trust-the-media-to-cover-the\
m-fairly-77252/

(9)

From: lindasdf (Mormon Apologist/aka Linda Fiatoa)
Time/Date: 5:23 AM EDT on July 01, 2012

To NonAnonymous (aka Robert Baty) -

> "the way Joseph Smith is viewed historically."

Viewed by who?

(10)

From: NonAnonymous (aka Robert Baty)
Time/Date: 10:56 AM EDT on July 01, 2012

To lindasdf (Mormon Apologist/aka Linda Fiatoa) -

> "Viewed by who"?

Those who view, of course!

You, me, whoever!

---------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------

http://www.christianpost.com/news/mormons-resign-en-masse-in-public-77497/

Mormons Resign En Masse in Public

By Anugrah Kumar
Christian Post Contributor
July 1, 2012

About 150 Mormons participated in a mass resignation ceremony and signed a
"Declaration of Independence from Mormonism" in Utah, the state where the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is based, on Saturday.

The group of Mormons, from Utah, Arizona, Idaho and a few other states, flashed
signs saying,

> "Finally ExMormon,"
> "Research the church" and
> "Transcend Mormonism,"

as they hiked Ensign Peak in Salt Lake City.

> "This feels awesome,"

Reuters quoted Alison Lucas, from West Jordan, Utah, as saying.

> "I don't know if I would have had
> the courage except in a group."

The reasons behind the Mormons' exit included doctrines, inconsistencies in how
the LDS narrates its own history, and its rejection of gay marriage.

They hiked a peak where former church president Brigham Young once surveyed the
spot where his Latter-day Saints would build a city in 1847.

> "It's been a hard journey and
> this is a symbolic end,"

event organizer Zilpha Larsen was quoted as saying.

> "I just hope that it boosts people
> up and helps them feel more comfortable
> in their decision."

Michelle Hobbs, a 40-year-old Salt Lake City resident, told The Salt Lake
Tribune she had been "very faithful" all her life but after she researched on
the church, she began to doubt the timeline of events in the Book of Mormon.

> "It's just all man-made.
> It's very disappointing,"

she said.

Some feared their decision could cost them social or business connections they
got through the LDS.

> "It's hard,
> so we have to be very careful,"

participant Robin Hansen was quoted as saying. He said he was leaving over a
"culture of abuse" Mormons promote by stressing on obedience.

Michael Purdy, an LDS spokesman, responded to the mass resignation, saying,

> "People make their own decisions about
> the direction they will follow in life."

There are very few who take this action, he told Reuters, but

> "it is sad to see someone choose to leave.
> We wish them well."

Mormons deviate from Christianity's central tenets – the Trinity, the belief in
one God in three Persons.

They also believe Joseph Smith Jr. is the first latter-day prophet who restored
the original Christian church in the 19th century in America.

They believe the entire structure of Christian orthodoxy affirmed by the
post-apostolic church is corrupt and false. Additionally, Latter-day Saints are
often criticized for their belief in "divine" books of scripture, aside from the
Bible, including the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl
of Great Price.

Readers' Comments:

(1)

From: NonAnonymous (aka Robert Baty)
Time/Date: 1:29 PM EDT on July 01, 2012

I am currently taking a poll which, in part, allows Mormons to tell personally
what they believe regarding certain, fundamental, historic, important claims
taken from an "official" Mormon website.

Many Mormons are refusing to participate, but a few have. If you are a Mormon,
please add your name and a simple "yes" or "no" to the following claims
indicating whether or not you believe them.

Here are the current results:

Poll Issues:

> (A) God revealed the doctrine of
> plural marriage to Joseph Smith?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes

> (B) God commanded Joseph Smith
> to live it?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich Mormon) - Yes

> (C) Joseph Smith taught the
> doctrine to some associates?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - Yes
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes

> (D) Joseph Smith and a number of
> his associates entered into plural
> marriages?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - Yes
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes

> (E) Joseph Smith and his associates
> needed and received personal inspiration
> from God to help them enter in to
> plural marriages?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes

Issues Taken From "Official" Mormon Webpage at:

http://classic.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?index=16&locale=0&sourceId=9887ec6f164\
b2110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

Sincerely,
Robert Baty
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/

(2)

From: Sergio Roa Prado (Mormon Apologist)
Time/Date: 2:26 PM EDT on July 01, 2012

The Christianity deviate from Biblical doctrines,
to doctrines that came from a special meetings,
called in Latin "sinudus" , when all the apostles
were die, there were only bishops , local autorities.

The Bishop of Rome became the head of Catholic Church,
the Bisshop of Constantinoplae , the head of Ortodox.

(3)

From: NonAnonymous (aka Robert Baty)
Time/Date: 2:34 PM EDT on July 01, 2012

To Sergio Roa Prado -

I do wish you and yours would quit running from
taking part in my Mormon poll.

Just add your name and a simple "yes" or "no"
indicating whether you believe the "official" Mormon
claims:

> (A) God revealed the doctrine of
> plural marriage to Joseph Smith?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes

> (B) God commanded Joseph Smith
> to live it?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich Mormon) - Yes

> (C) Joseph Smith taught the
> doctrine to some associates?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - Yes
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes

> (D) Joseph Smith and a number of
> his associates entered into plural
> marriages?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - Yes
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes

> (E) Joseph Smith and his associates
> needed and received personal inspiration
> from God to help them enter in to
> plural marriages?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes

Issues Taken From "Official" Mormon Webpage at:

http://classic.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?index=16&locale=0&sourceId=9887ec6f164\
b2110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

Sincerely,
Robert Baty
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/

----------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------

http://www.christianpost.com/news/mormons-resign-en-masse-in-public-77497/

(4)

From: Brian Casaday (Mormon Apologist)
Time/Date: 3:38 PM EDT on July 01, 2012


The former members will always be welcome to return if they choose to do so.

Many Mormons, at one point in their lives, have left the church for some reason
and later returned. It happens all the time.

(I'm still not sure how 150 people leaving the LDS church is newsworthy, but not
when larger numbers join the LDS faith, which happens all the time)

(5)

From: NonAnonymous (aka Robert Baty)
Time/Date: 3:44 PM EDT on July 01, 2012

To Brian Casaday -

When are you going to stop running, Brian, and participate in my poll. Perhaps
you noticed where, in my accommodation to Ryan Heath, I had to speculate that,
based on your postings here, you would answer "no" to one or more of the claims.

Brian, let's not make it speculative as to your answers; simply indicate "yes"
or "no" to each of the claims:

> (A) God revealed the doctrine of
> plural marriage to Joseph Smith?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes

> (B) God commanded Joseph Smith
> to live it?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich Mormon) - Yes

> (C) Joseph Smith taught the
> doctrine to some associates?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - Yes
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes

> (D) Joseph Smith and a number of
> his associates entered into plural
> marriages?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - Yes
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes

> (E) Joseph Smith and his associates
> needed and received personal inspiration
> from God to help them enter in to
> plural marriages?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes

Issues Taken From "Official" Mormon Webpage at:

http://classic.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?index=16&locale=0&sourceId=9887ec6f164\
b2110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

Sincerely,
Robert Baty
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/

(6)

From: NonAnonymous (aka Robert Baty)
Time/Date: 3:54 PM EDT on July 01, 2012

Those who have been watching and/or participating in the playing out of these
matters on the CP have noticed some of the references I have given regarding one
of the issues the Mormons here have been unwilling to openly, honestly discuss
(e.g., Sidney Rigdon's association with Alexander Campbell and how such
association may have affected the development of the religious ideas associated
with Joseph Smith).

Here's another link and excerpt from what Campbell's son-in-law wrote on the
subject, in part:

http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/rrichardson/mac/MAC210.HTM

Memoirs of Alexander Campbell
Volume II. (1869)
by Robert Richardson

(excerpts)

CHAPTER X

Mormonism--Its exposure. . . .

TOWARD the close of this year (1830) the delusion of Mormonism began its course
in Northern Ohio.

Chief amongst its promoters appeared Sydney Rigdon, who was believed, upon good
evidence, to have been also its originator.

Captivating as a public speaker by his fluency and his exuberant fancy, he had
depended upon these superficial endowments for popularity and success.

In private he had been found petulant, unreliable and
ungovernable in his passions, and his wayward temper, his
extravagant stories and his habit of self-assertion had
prevented him from attaining influence as a religious teacher
among the disciples.

He was ambitious of distinction, without the energy and
industry necessary to secure it, and jealous of the reputation
of others, without the ability to compete with them.

Floating upon the tide of popular excitement, he was disposed to catch at
anything which, without demanding labor, might serve for his advancement, and
was naturally led to seek in deception the success which he found denied to
indolence.

Suffice it to say, that upon his death Rigdon and Brigham Young disputed the
right to the succession, and Young prevailing, Rigdon was expelled from the
community and retired into the interior of New York, where he has since lived in
obscurity.

From the first moment of its appearance, Mr. Campbell endeavored to stay the
progress of this imposture and to expose the villainy of those concerned in it.

------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------

Mormon Numbers Not Adding Up
by Joanna Brooks
(Religion Dispatches, 2/2/2012)
http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/culture/5611/mormon_numbers_not_adding\
_up/

Why Mormons flee their church
By Carrie Sheffield
(USA Today, 6/17/2012)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/story/2012-06-17/mormon-lds-ex-mormon\
/55654242/1



--- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "rlbaty50" <rlbaty@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.christianpost.com/news/mormons-resign-en-masse-in-public-77497/
>
> Mormons Resign En Masse in Public
>
> By Anugrah Kumar
> Christian Post Contributor
> July 1, 2012
>
> About 150 Mormons participated in a mass resignation ceremony and signed a
"Declaration of Independence from Mormonism" in Utah, the state where the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is based, on Saturday.
>
> The group of Mormons, from Utah, Arizona, Idaho and a few other states,
flashed signs saying,
>
> > "Finally ExMormon,"
> > "Research the church" and
> > "Transcend Mormonism,"
>
> as they hiked Ensign Peak in Salt Lake City.
>
> > "This feels awesome,"
>
> Reuters quoted Alison Lucas, from West Jordan, Utah, as saying.
>
> > "I don't know if I would have had
> > the courage except in a group."
>
> The reasons behind the Mormons' exit included doctrines, inconsistencies in
how the LDS narrates its own history, and its rejection of gay marriage.
>
> They hiked a peak where former church president Brigham Young once surveyed
the spot where his Latter-day Saints would build a city in 1847.
>
> > "It's been a hard journey and
> > this is a symbolic end,"
>
> event organizer Zilpha Larsen was quoted as saying.
>
> > "I just hope that it boosts people
> > up and helps them feel more comfortable
> > in their decision."
>
> Michelle Hobbs, a 40-year-old Salt Lake City resident, told The Salt Lake
Tribune she had been "very faithful" all her life but after she researched on
the church, she began to doubt the timeline of events in the Book of Mormon.
>
> > "It's just all man-made.
> > It's very disappointing,"
>
> she said.
>
> Some feared their decision could cost them social or business connections they
got through the LDS.
>
> > "It's hard,
> > so we have to be very careful,"
>
> participant Robin Hansen was quoted as saying. He said he was leaving over a
"culture of abuse" Mormons promote by stressing on obedience.
>
> Michael Purdy, an LDS spokesman, responded to the mass resignation, saying,
>
> > "People make their own decisions about
> > the direction they will follow in life."
>
> There are very few who take this action, he told Reuters, but
>
> > "it is sad to see someone choose to leave.
> > We wish them well."
>
> Mormons deviate from Christianity's central tenets – the Trinity, the belief
in one God in three Persons.
>
> They also believe Joseph Smith Jr. is the first latter-day prophet who
restored the original Christian church in the 19th century in America.
>
> They believe the entire structure of Christian orthodoxy affirmed by the
post-apostolic church is corrupt and false. Additionally, Latter-day Saints are
often criticized for their belief in "divine" books of scripture, aside from the
Bible, including the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl
of Great Price.
>
> Readers' Comments:
>
> (1)
>
> From: NonAnonymous (aka Robert Baty)
> Time/Date: 1:29 PM EDT on July 01, 2012
>
> I am currently taking a poll which, in part, allows Mormons to tell personally
what they believe regarding certain, fundamental, historic, important claims
taken from an "official" Mormon website.
>
> Many Mormons are refusing to participate, but a few have. If you are a Mormon,
please add your name and a simple "yes" or "no" to the following claims
indicating whether or not you believe them.
>
> Here are the current results:
>
> Poll Issues:
>
> > (A) God revealed the doctrine of
> > plural marriage to Joseph Smith?
> >
> >> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
> >>
> >> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
> >> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
>
> > (B) God commanded Joseph Smith
> > to live it?
> >
> >> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
> >>
> >> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
> >> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Aaron Ulrich Mormon) - Yes
>
> > (C) Joseph Smith taught the
> > doctrine to some associates?
> >
> >> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - Yes
> >>
> >> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
> >> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
>
> > (D) Joseph Smith and a number of
> > his associates entered into plural
> > marriages?
> >
> >> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - Yes
> >>
> >> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
> >> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
>
> > (E) Joseph Smith and his associates
> > needed and received personal inspiration
> > from God to help them enter in to
> > plural marriages?
> >
> >> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
> >>
> >> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
> >> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
>
> Issues Taken From "Official" Mormon Webpage at:
>
>
http://classic.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?index=16&locale=0&sourceId=9887ec6f164\
b2110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
>
> Sincerely,
> Robert Baty
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/
>
> (2)
>
> From: Sergio Roa Prado (Mormon Apologist)
> Time/Date: 2:26 PM EDT on July 01, 2012
>
> The Christianity deviate from Biblical doctrines,
> to doctrines that came from a special meetings,
> called in Latin "sinudus" , when all the apostles
> were die, there were only bishops , local autorities.
>
> The Bishop of Rome became the head of Catholic Church,
> the Bisshop of Constantinoplae , the head of Ortodox.
>
> (3)
>
> From: NonAnonymous (aka Robert Baty)
> Time/Date: 2:34 PM EDT on July 01, 2012
>
> To Sergio Roa Prado -
>
> I do wish you and yours would quit running from
> taking part in my Mormon poll.
>
> Just add your name and a simple "yes" or "no"
> indicating whether you believe the "official" Mormon
> claims:
>
> > (A) God revealed the doctrine of
> > plural marriage to Joseph Smith?
> >
> >> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
> >>
> >> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
> >> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
>
> > (B) God commanded Joseph Smith
> > to live it?
> >
> >> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
> >>
> >> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
> >> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Aaron Ulrich Mormon) - Yes
>
> > (C) Joseph Smith taught the
> > doctrine to some associates?
> >
> >> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - Yes
> >>
> >> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
> >> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
>
> > (D) Joseph Smith and a number of
> > his associates entered into plural
> > marriages?
> >
> >> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - Yes
> >>
> >> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
> >> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
>
> > (E) Joseph Smith and his associates
> > needed and received personal inspiration
> > from God to help them enter in to
> > plural marriages?
> >
> >> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
> >>
> >> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
> >> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
> >> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
>
> Issues Taken From "Official" Mormon Webpage at:
>
>
http://classic.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?index=16&locale=0&sourceId=9887ec6f164\
b2110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
>
> Sincerely,
> Robert Baty
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/
>
> ----------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------------------
>

Ray,

While I have reached different conclusions, I am glad I was able to bring
something to your mind that you had not considered before.

You are welcome.

Maybe we'll get into some of the many details for discussion one of these days
if there are particulars in which we share a mutual interest in discussing.

Too bad Rigdon didn't take Campbell up on the invitation for a public discussion
on the merits of Mormonism.

By the way, are you familiar with the
Farnsworth(Mormon)/Gatewood(ChurchofChrist) debate I mentioned earlier?  From
back in the 1940's.

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

--- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/27612
Ray Ausban <rayausban@...> wrote:

> In the early 1980's I attended a discussion
> series on the origin of the Church of Christ
> hosted by the local Church of Christ.
>
> It was five nights and two hours each.
>
> I was already LDS at the time, but I walked
> away with a good deal of respect for Alexander
> Campbell in his part in establishing this
> variation of Christianity.
>  
> Now, that I have read some of his own words
> and not simply hearing a devotee's description,
> I see what a demented and twisted mind he really
> had!
>
> It is no wonder that every Church of Christ
> member I have talked with does not bring up
> their illustrious founder and knows very
> little about him!
>  
> I see why Rigdon abandoned the Campbellites!

------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------

http://blogs.christianpost.com/bookstop/the-mormonizing-of-america-book-excerpt-\
pt-2-10561/

(1)

From: lindasdf (Mormon Apologist/aka Linda Fiatoa)
Time/Date: 8:01 PM EDT on July 01, 2012

To NonAnonymous (aka Robert Baty)-

>(Ray and Linda have set a good
> example for you to follow while
> other Mormons here have set a
> bad example in refusing to
> "give an answer")

Ray and Linda, GOOOD Mormons!

All others, BAAAAD Mormons!

Really, could you be any more patronizing?

If I had waited till now to answer your questions,
I might not have answered them, either.

(2)

From: NonAnonymous (aka Robert Baty)
Time/Date: 8:07 PM EDT on July 01, 2012

To lindasdf (aka Linda Fiatoa) -

I think there is very good justification for my course
in these matters, and if you would commit yourself to
independently studying the history of these things,
you just might see the justification for my course.

However, Linda, please don't continue such evasions
as you are demonstrating and others are demonstrating
as well.

You can help get your fellow Mormons to simply provide
the "yes" and/or "no" answers to the poll questions or not.

If not, at least quite whining about your misconceptions
about these important public issues.

Curiously enough, I happened to follow up on a link
Todd provided over at my place and found a Mormon
referring to a discussion list in "the lion's den"
(e.g., the official church website).

Go figure. Not knowing any better, I joined.

And what do you know.

Some anonymous, Mormon sniper popped off about like
you did; bad-mouthing my poll and refusing to tell
me what she/he believed as to those 5 claims.

Sincerely,
Robert Baty
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/

(3)

From: NonAnonymous (aka Robert Baty)
Time/Date: 8:12 PM EDT on July 01, 2012

To Linda Fiatoa (aka lindasdf)

You might also consider, if you wish to quibble and
evade, that the term "other" as I used it does not
refer to, implicitly or explicitly, "all other".

If you demonstrate a sincere interest in these
matters, we might actually produce some more
worthwhile chatter about these important public
events, but you'll have to be more cooperative
and play with me on a level field.

----------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------

Ray,

You are welcome.

I don't know that it's on-line, but it appears to be available on Amazon.

The YAHOO! notice has to do with a feature of these lists which, as far as I
know, no one here uses.

The discussion feature should survive without being affected.

I am not that good at searching the archives myself, Ray.

You should experiment with key words and see what comes up.

Maybe Todd can help you with specifics, or me, if there is something in
particular you want to refer to in one or more of his prior posts.

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

--- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/27615
Ray Ausban <rayausban@...> wrote:

> Robert,
>  
> 1) Thank you for bringing it up.
>  
> 2) No, never heard of this debate.
> Is it on-line?
>  
> 3) Does the notice from Yahoo mean your
> group is going to be deleted this week?
>  
> 4) You recommended I review some of Todd's
> old posts. Is there an easy way to search
> this within those thousands of message postings?

--- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/27617
Ray Ausban wrote, in part:

> If Romney gets elected and is a good President 
> there may be a bump up in the baptism rate.

It seems to me that there is a very good chance of Romney being our next
President.

In that context, and in light of some of the discussions I have seen elsewhere,
I am thinking that the election cycle now under way as well as his resulting
presidency may just have a negative affect on Mormon membership if, as some
suppose, the investigation of the religion will get considerably more scrutiny
than were it otherwise.

I am also wondering whether Romney may come out looking more like a "cultural
Mormon" than a "convicted Mormon" regarding so many of the things that
distinguish Mormons from other religions.

Do you think anyone will eventually be able to get Romney to answer to my poll
issues?????

Just some of my speculation on that matter.

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

My earlier effort to post this appears to be delayed, so I'm trying again!

Todd's recent message provided the following link to a news article about
Mormons leaving their church:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58244-welcome-message/

Here's an excerpt from one of the reader's comments:

> From: Kerry Wallace (Mormon Apologist)
> Date: June 18, 2012
>
> You have all the information you want and all
> from the mouth of the Lion as you so aptly put it.
>
> Where did you get your info about...
> How about Joseph Smith's polygamy?
> And the...
> You talk about the Lion's mouth.
>
> I will never refer someone of your obvious
> intelligence and open mind (wreathing with
> sarcasm) to mormon.org or lds.org but you
> might want to try..., and finally for a fun
> debate filled experience
>
>> http://www.mormondialogue.org/.
>
> Now these are the mouth of the lion.
>
> They actually offer answers not just...
>
> I as a member of the LDS church invite all
> to investigate, research, study, ponder and
> pray.
>
> I challenge you to overcome your personal
> prejudice and...
>
> But by all means be civil and respectful
> no matter what your answer is.

And so I did!

Tonight!

Interesting experience!

Maybe I will be able to post more about that later.  Here's a link to the
discussion thread there:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58244-welcome-message/

After more than 40 messages, including a variety of Mormon participants, I just
posted the poll for their consideration.  Previously they were refusing to take
part, save one (Violets).

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

Todd's recent message had the following link to a discussion of Mormons who
leave their church:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/story/2012-06-17/mormon-lds-ex-mormon\
/55654242/1

Following is an excerpt from one of the readers' comments:

> From: Kerry Wallace (Mormon)
> Date: June 18, 2012
>
> Where did you get your info about...
> How about Joseph Smith's polygamy?
> And the...
> You talk about the Lion's mouth.
>
> You might want to try
>
> http://www.mormondialogue.org/.
>
> Now these are the mouth of the lion.
>
> They actually offer answers not just...
>
> I as a member of the LDS church invite all
> to investigate, research, study, ponder and
> pray.
>
> I challenge you to overcome your personal
> prejudice...
>
> By all means be civil and respectful no
> matter what your answer is.

And so I did, venture in to the Mormon "lion's den" tonight!

And I presented my poll for consideration.

More about all of that later.

Here's a link to that thread:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58244-welcome-message/

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

I just noticed that my introductory thread in "the lion's den" of Mormonism has
just been locked down; without notice.

That's fine; provides some release and time to document those important, public
developments for preservation here.

I will do so in some following messages.  There's about 50 messages and so I'll
try to break them up and post them in sequence in more than one message; as I
get time.

Stay tuned!

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

--- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
"rlbaty50" <rlbaty@...> wrote:

Todd's recent message had the following link to a discussion of Mormons who
leave their church:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/story/2012-06-17/mormon-lds-ex-mormon\
\
/55654242/1

Following is an excerpt from one of the readers' comments:

> From: Kerry Wallace (Mormon)
> Date: June 18, 2012
>
> Where did you get your info about...
> How about Joseph Smith's polygamy?
> And the...
> You talk about the Lion's mouth.
>
> You might want to try
>
> http://www.mormondialogue.org/.
>
> Now these are the mouth of the lion.
>
> They actually offer answers not just...
>
> I as a member of the LDS church invite all
> to investigate, research, study, ponder and
> pray.
>
> I challenge you to overcome your personal
> prejudice...
>
> By all means be civil and respectful no
> matter what your answer is.

And so I did, venture in to the Mormon "lion's den" tonight!

And I presented my poll for consideration.

More about all of that later.

Here's a link to that thread:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58244-welcome-message/

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

From the Mormon "lion's den" (all posted the evening of July 1, 2012):

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58244-welcome-message/

(1)

From: RLBaty

I am new to this venue.

I just ran across a reference from a Mormon readers' comment from a recent news
article.  I think he said something about his being the "lion's mouth".

I have in recent days been engaged in an effort to discuss certain matters with
Mormons in The Christian Post venue.

I also have my own YAHOO! discussion group which I think is preferable.

I'm currently most interested in getting more bonafide Mormons to participate in
a poll regarding 5 simple, specific, historical claims I found on an "official"
Mormon website.

So far only 5 have participated.

Folks are welcome to requite my love and make their appearance in my YAHOO!
group.

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

(2)

From: calmoriah

What is the purpose of the poll?

(3)

From: RLBaty


calmoriah, on 01 July 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

> What is the purpose of the poll?

There are a variety of utilitarian purposes that the poll might serve.

To each his own.

For myself, the poll developed as a result of observations and experience with
Mormons in The Christian Post venue.

Would you, whoever you are, be willing to complete the poll, for the public
record, by providing your simple "yes" or "no", indicating whether or not you
believe the claims to be true, responses to the 5 simple, factual, historical
claims taken from an "official" Mormon website?

I notice that you, whoever you are, have over 25,000 posts here.

Do you ever identify yourself?

The reason I ask is because one of the Senior Mormon apologists who has appeared
on The Christian Post from time to time has indicated that one may not be open
and honest in his/her dealings if he/she is "hiding" behind anonymity.

I think it is a good principle to work from.

Dealing with anonymous sorts can be problematic.

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

(4)

From: calmoriah

I choose to be anonymous because my daughter who has severe anxiety has asked me
to as she has heard of horror stories of what happens at times when internet
stalkers track down their targets.

Besides which since I am only known by my online name online, very, very few
(and only those who knew me first as "Cal") online would recognize my real name.
I would be more "anonymous" if I used my birth/married name than if I use the
name by which I am known by the online community....which name is as real to me
and my friends online as my offline name (which is most often just a nickname
too after all and not the one on official documents or medical charts) is to me
and my friends offline.  In fact, I can always tell who doesn't know me by their
use of my full name, lol.

And knowing my real name certainly wouldn't add any credibility to my claims,
:).

As to the poll, I make it a habit not to participate generally and if I do, I
want to know precisely what the information is going to be used for....unless it
is done by academics for academic research purposes and then out of appreciation
for those who participated when I did my research for university eons ago, I do
participate for them....but there is nothing academic I can see about your
poll...sorry.

I saw the poll if it is the one on plural marriage.  Seems pretty worthless in
terms of content, honestly.

PS:  lds.org is not an "official" Mormon website, it is the official website of
the LDS Church.

(5)

From: RLBaty

calmoriah, on 01 July 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

> I choose to be anonymous because...
>
> And knowing my real name certainly wouldn't
> add any credibility to my claims, :).
>
> I saw the poll if it is the one on plural
> marriage.  Seems pretty worthless in terms
> of content, honestly.
>
> PS:  lds.org is not an "official" Mormon website,
> it is the official website of the LDS Church.

Thanks for that reply.

I deal with anonymous correspondents on a case by case basis.

Anonymity has advantages and disadvantages.

It's not about a name, though a name is part of leveling the playing field
depending upon the extent to which one might be interested in open, honest chat
about matters of mutual interest.

For instance, you complain about my poll seeming "pretty worthless".

Nice play!

We can deal with our differing opinions about the value of the poll after other
matters are dealt with; if they ever are.

You seem inclined to NOT participate in the poll or a discussion of its
relevance to important, public, historical issues.

I'll try to make that LDS/Mormon distinction on the "officiality" of the site.

(6)

From: calmoriah

Having now read some of your interchanges with posters at the yahoo group, I am
not interested in either poll for any reason or in particular continuing a
conversation with you as too much personal stuff going on.  If you do decide to
stick around here, this may change depending on if your content is different
here then there.

(7)

From: RLBaty

calmoriah, on 01 July 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

> Having now read some of your interchanges with
> posters at the yahoo group, I am not interested
> in either poll for any reason or in particular
> continuing a conversation with you as too much
> personal stuff going on.  If you do decide to
> stick around here, this may change depending on
> if your content is different here then there.

Thanks for the notice, though I find it all too typical of those wanting to find
a reason to evade simply giving a "yes" or "no" answer regarding 5 simple,
specific, historical claims taken from an "official" LDS Church website.

As I noted before, anonymity has its advantages and you've demonstrated some of
them in your antics over these simple matters.

Maybe others will take part in the poll and other such matters in which we might
share a mutual interest in discussing; maybe not.

Sincerely,
Robert Baty
http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

(8)

From: calmoriah

And thus my expectations are fulfilled.....

(9)

From: RLBaty
calmoriah, on 01 July 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

> And thus my expectations are fulfilled.....

Likewise, but I am hopeful that there might be some here unlike my first
anonymous, evasive correspondent.

Sincerely,
Robert Baty
http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

(10)

From: calmoriah

How have I evaded anything?  I gave you specific answers to what you've asked on
this board.

I am not "anonymous" in the sense that I am trying to avoid responsibility for
what I've said or ever said anywhere on the internet.  People can find all the
relevant info they like about me simply by googling this name.  If they googled
my married or birth name, they wouldn't find out anything about me.  That name
is the one much more "anonymous" than this one.

I turned down the opportunity to "requite [your] love" by responding to your
poll that isn't even posted here (and you hadn't even linked to, btw).  Not
evading there.  Came right out and said "no".

add-on:  did a bit more reading....it would seem the ultimate purpose of the
poll is to see how many LDS agree with Mr. Baty if JS had sex with his wives or
not.

(11)

From: RLBaty

calmoriah, on 01 July 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

> How have I evaded anything?
> I gave you specific answers to what
> you've asked on this board.
>
> I turned down the opportunity to "requite
> [your] love" by responding to your poll
> that isn't even posted here (and you hadn't
> even linked to, btw).
>
> Not evading there.
> Came right out and said "no".
>
> add-on:  it would seem the ultimate purpose
> of the poll is to see how many LDS agree with
> Mr. Baty if JS had sex with his wives or not.

I made reference to my poll, and you indicated that you were familiar with the
poll.

You then evading providing simple answers of "yes" or "no" regarding what you, a
Mormon, believe regarding those important, public, historical claims taken from
an official LDS church website.

The ultimate purpose of the poll, as far as I am concerned, is NOT as you
allege, but we can discuss such things, if there is a mutual interest, at a more
appropriate time.  As I stated, there are a number of utilitarian purposes as to
the poll, and my brief experience here is fulfilling one or more of them even
while those here have been declining to participate.  It doesn't have to be
posted here for folks here to know exactly what the 5 claims are and answer
"yes" and/or "no".

If you think it would help to post the poll here, I would certainly oblige, or,
since it is quite public, anyone else out there could post it here.

I wasn't sure that it would be appropriate, but I'll post it if you wish; or you
or anyone else can post it; or anything else for that matter.

Sincerely,
Robert Baty
http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58244-welcome-message/

(12)

From: Pa Pa

Few groups like "simple yes or no" answers...
it leaves no room for dialog.

(13)

From: bluebell

Pa Pa, on 01 July 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

> Few groups like "simple yes or no" answers...
> it leaves no room for dialog.

And such questions can also be (not always but it happens) a trap equal to the
'when did you stop beating your wife?' yes or no question.

(14)

From: Pa Pa

RLBaty, on 01 July 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

> Thanks for the notice, though I find it all
> too typical of those wanting to find a reason
> to evade simply giving a "yes" or "no" answer
> regarding 5 simple, specific, historical claims
> taken from an "official" LDS Church website.
>
> As I noted before, anonymity has its advantages
> and you've demonstrated some of them in your
> antics over these simple matters.
>
> Maybe others will take part in the poll and other
> such matters in which we might share a mutual
> interest in discussing; maybe not.
>
> Sincerely,
> Robert Baty
> http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

"Antic"?

She is one of the most fair minded people I have known on any site.

6 posts and you are being quite demanding...reminds me of CARMella.

(15)

From: Pa Pa

bluebell, on 01 July 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

> And such questions can also be (not always
> but it happens) a trap equal to the 'when
> did you stop beating your wife?' yes or no
> question.

Great point.

From: RLBaty

Pa Pa, on 01 July 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

> Few groups like "simple yes or no" answers...
> it leaves no room for dialog.

I am more than willing, even begging, for open,honest dialog with bonafide
Mormons regarding these important public issues.

I have seen those Mormons I have had direct contact with all over the Internet
proposing that I should "ask a Mormon" about what they believe, use "official"
LDS church websites and avoid anti-Mormon sites.

And so I have, and so it has been interesting to watch the lengths to which my
Mormon contacts have gone to evade simply first answering "yes" and/or "no" to
what they believe about those official LDS church claims that have caught my
attention.

Sincerely,
Robert Baty
http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

From: RLBaty

bluebell, on 01 July 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

> And such questions can also be (not always but
> it happens) a trap equal to the 'when did you
> stop beating your wife?' yes or no question.

Those question are NOT like asking if you have quit beating your wife.

If you think so, maybe you should get the official LDS church to take down the
claims from its website!

Sincerely,
Robert Baty
http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

From: RLBaty

Pa Pa, on 01 July 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

> "Antic"?

> She is one of the most fair minded people
> I have known on any site. 6 posts and you
> are being quite demanding...reminds me of
> CARMella.

Not at all.

I am NOT being demanding.

I am giving bonafide Mormons a chance to simply answer "yes" and/or "no"
regarding whether or not they believe certain, specific, important, historic
claims on their official LDS church website.

Among other things, it provides a platform upon which to pursue a discussion of
important public issues where there may be mutual interest.

Sincerely,
Robert Baty
http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

From: bluebell

RLBaty, on 01 July 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

> Those question are NOT like asking if you
> have quit beating your wife.
>
> If you think so, maybe you should get the
> official LDS church to take down the claims
> from its website!

I never claimed they were.

I haven't even read them and don't have plans to.  I have no opinion on your
poll, other than that i'm not interested in being a part of it.  You seem pretty
easy to get riled up and very quick with condemning people who respond in ways
you don't like.  No offense meant, but my life's got enough drama without going
out and looking for it.

I was simply commenting on some of the inherent problems that can exist when
being forced to answer questions with only a yes or a no.

From: cursor

@RLBaty:

Must one join your Yahoo group in order to even see the poll?

From: RLBaty

bluebell, on 01 July 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

> I have no opinion on your poll, other than
> that i'm not interested in being a part of it.
>
> You seem pretty easy to get riled up and very
> quick with condemning people who respond in
> ways you don't like.
>
> I was simply commenting on some of the inherent
> problems that can exist when being forced to
> answer questions with only a yes or a no.

You are going down the wrong trail if you are trying to chat about problems with
"yes" or "no" questions as if your misguided course had some relevance to my
poll questions.

That your course is premised on the proposition that you have no interest in my
poll and aren't going to participate is rather disengenous.

As to getting riled up, that's kinda funny in the broader context in which my
interest has been pricked by Mormons who I have seen going throughout cyberspace
whining about being maligned with bad reporting and the use of UNofficial
references.

I played their game and beat them at it.

They (y'all) don't seem to like that and it shows already in this venue.  Just
one of those utilitarian aspects of my poll exercise.

Now, of all the Mormons here, is there not any willing to tell me straight out
whether "yes" or "no" regarding those 5 simple, important, public, historical
claims taken from an official LDS Church website?

Sincerely,
Robert Baty
http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

From: RLBaty

cursor, on 01 July 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

> Must one join your Yahoo group in
> order to even see the poll?

Not at all.

The list is publicly viewable.
Its archives are searchable.

And you can even post a note there without joining the list.

Simply address and e-mail to: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

From: bluebell

Good luck with the righteous indignation response.

I've never seen people motivated to help those who use it yet, but today may be
the first!

Seriously, i wish you success but am STILL very much glad to steer clear.  :D

From: rpn

My answer is "yes" to 2-5.

To 1 it is: more likely that Joseph Smith read the parts of the bible about
polygamous marriages, and the counsel in the Book of Mormon condemning it and
asked God about the apparent discrepancy, to which Heavenly Father revealed that
he (Joseph Smith) was one called to do it --- therefore making it approved.

So if you are asking whether Heavenly Father revealed it in a bolt of lightning
out of the blue, I'm inclined to think not.

But if you mean that God inspired Joseph both about the principal and His
command to JS to live it, my answer would be "yes".

(I think it will likely turn out that the polyandrous sealings that Joseph Smith
participated in were misunderstandings of the law, one that required specific
revelation in the 1880's to wilford woodruff to correct, that people were
supposed to be sealed to spouses and parents and children, not to church
leaders.)

From: RLBaty

bluebell, on 01 July 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

> Good luck with the righteous indignation response.
>
> I've never seen people motivated to help those who
> use it yet, but today may be the first!
>
> Seriously, i wish you success but am STILL very
> much glad to steer clear.  :D

I will note your efforts and, unless I am mistaken, your refusal to simply
answer "yes" or "no" to those 5 simple, historic, factual claims posted to the
official LDS Church website.

It is my opinion that the claims are so framed such that a Mormon, or anyone
else, can answer "yes" and/or "no" to each claim and that Mormons in particular
have a position regarding each (e.g., either "yes" and/or "no").

As I have noted, one of the utilitarian purposes of the poll is to observe the
lengths Mormons will go to in order to evade simply "giving an answer" on these
matters; matters important enough to have been presented as part of the official
LDS Church history.

Thanks for the demonstration.

Now, is there anyone else here that wishes to participate; maybe even "give an
answer"?

Sincerely,
Robert Baty
http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

P.S. Speakin of all that righteous indignation stuff, have you noted Sergio's
Mormon claims:

> From: Sergio Roa Prado (LDS Apologist)
> Time/Date: 6:45 PM on February 10, 2012
>
> My authority came from God who
> gave authority to Jesus,
> to Peter,
> to Joseph Smith,
> and finally to me.
>
> This is called authority line.

and this:

> From: Sergio Roa Prado (LDS Apologist)
> Time/Date: 10:01 AM on February 17, 2012
>
> I win.
> I have authority.
> I have authority line, and
> you have not.

I'm still having trouble getting messages to post timely, so here's the second
posting of messages 12-25 from my venture into the Mormon "lion's den":

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58244-welcome-message/

(12)

From: Pa Pa

Few groups like "simple yes or no" answers...
it leaves no room for dialog.

(13)

From: bluebell

Pa Pa, on 01 July 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

> Few groups like "simple yes or no" answers...
> it leaves no room for dialog.

And such questions can also be (not always but it happens) a trap equal to the
'when did you stop beating your wife?' yes or no question.

(14)

From: Pa Pa

RLBaty, on 01 July 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

> Thanks for the notice, though I find it all
> too typical of those wanting to find a reason
> to evade simply giving a "yes" or "no" answer
> regarding 5 simple, specific, historical claims
> taken from an "official" LDS Church website.
>
> As I noted before, anonymity has its advantages
> and you've demonstrated some of them in your
> antics over these simple matters.
>
> Maybe others will take part in the poll and other
> such matters in which we might share a mutual
> interest in discussing; maybe not.
>
> Sincerely,
> Robert Baty
> http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

"Antic"?

She is one of the most fair minded people I have known on any site.

6 posts and you are being quite demanding...reminds me of CARMella.

(15)

From: Pa Pa

bluebell, on 01 July 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

> And such questions can also be (not always
> but it happens) a trap equal to the 'when
> did you stop beating your wife?' yes or no
> question.

Great point.

From: RLBaty

Pa Pa, on 01 July 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

> Few groups like "simple yes or no" answers...
> it leaves no room for dialog.

I am more than willing, even begging, for open,honest dialog with bonafide
Mormons regarding these important public issues.

I have seen those Mormons I have had direct contact with all over the Internet
proposing that I should "ask a Mormon" about what they believe, use "official"
LDS church websites and avoid anti-Mormon sites.

And so I have, and so it has been interesting to watch the lengths to which my
Mormon contacts have gone to evade simply first answering "yes" and/or "no" to
what they believe about those official LDS church claims that have caught my
attention.

Sincerely,
Robert Baty
http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

From: RLBaty

bluebell, on 01 July 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

> And such questions can also be (not always but
> it happens) a trap equal to the 'when did you
> stop beating your wife?' yes or no question.

Those question are NOT like asking if you have quit beating your wife.

If you think so, maybe you should get the official LDS church to take down the
claims from its website!

Sincerely,
Robert Baty
http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

From: RLBaty

Pa Pa, on 01 July 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

> "Antic"?

> She is one of the most fair minded people
> I have known on any site. 6 posts and you
> are being quite demanding...reminds me of
> CARMella.

Not at all.

I am NOT being demanding.

I am giving bonafide Mormons a chance to simply answer "yes" and/or "no"
regarding whether or not they believe certain, specific, important, historic
claims on their official LDS church website.

Among other things, it provides a platform upon which to pursue a discussion of
important public issues where there may be mutual interest.

Sincerely,
Robert Baty
http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

From: bluebell

RLBaty, on 01 July 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

> Those question are NOT like asking if you
> have quit beating your wife.
>
> If you think so, maybe you should get the
> official LDS church to take down the claims
> from its website!

I never claimed they were.

I haven't even read them and don't have plans to.  I have no opinion on your
poll, other than that i'm not interested in being a part of it.  You seem pretty
easy to get riled up and very quick with condemning people who respond in ways
you don't like.  No offense meant, but my life's got enough drama without going
out and looking for it.

I was simply commenting on some of the inherent problems that can exist when
being forced to answer questions with only a yes or a no.

From: cursor

@RLBaty:

Must one join your Yahoo group in order to even see the poll?

From: RLBaty

bluebell, on 01 July 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

> I have no opinion on your poll, other than
> that i'm not interested in being a part of it.
>
> You seem pretty easy to get riled up and very
> quick with condemning people who respond in
> ways you don't like.
>
> I was simply commenting on some of the inherent
> problems that can exist when being forced to
> answer questions with only a yes or a no.

You are going down the wrong trail if you are trying to chat about problems with
"yes" or "no" questions as if your misguided course had some relevance to my
poll questions.

That your course is premised on the proposition that you have no interest in my
poll and aren't going to participate is rather disengenous.

As to getting riled up, that's kinda funny in the broader context in which my
interest has been pricked by Mormons who I have seen going throughout cyberspace
whining about being maligned with bad reporting and the use of UNofficial
references.

I played their game and beat them at it.

They (y'all) don't seem to like that and it shows already in this venue.  Just
one of those utilitarian aspects of my poll exercise.

Now, of all the Mormons here, is there not any willing to tell me straight out
whether "yes" or "no" regarding those 5 simple, important, public, historical
claims taken from an official LDS Church website?

Sincerely,
Robert Baty
http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

From: RLBaty

cursor, on 01 July 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

> Must one join your Yahoo group in
> order to even see the poll?

Not at all.

The list is publicly viewable.
Its archives are searchable.

And you can even post a note there without joining the list.

Simply address and e-mail to: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

From: bluebell

Good luck with the righteous indignation response.

I've never seen people motivated to help those who use it yet, but today may be
the first!

Seriously, i wish you success but am STILL very much glad to steer clear.  :D

From: rpn

My answer is "yes" to 2-5.

To 1 it is: more likely that Joseph Smith read the parts of the bible about
polygamous marriages, and the counsel in the Book of Mormon condemning it and
asked God about the apparent discrepancy, to which Heavenly Father revealed that
he (Joseph Smith) was one called to do it --- therefore making it approved.

So if you are asking whether Heavenly Father revealed it in a bolt of lightning
out of the blue, I'm inclined to think not.

But if you mean that God inspired Joseph both about the principal and His
command to JS to live it, my answer would be "yes".

(I think it will likely turn out that the polyandrous sealings that Joseph Smith
participated in were misunderstandings of the law, one that required specific
revelation in the 1880's to wilford woodruff to correct, that people were
supposed to be sealed to spouses and parents and children, not to church
leaders.)

From: RLBaty

bluebell, on 01 July 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

> Good luck with the righteous indignation response.
>
> I've never seen people motivated to help those who
> use it yet, but today may be the first!
>
> Seriously, i wish you success but am STILL very
> much glad to steer clear.  :D

I will note your efforts and, unless I am mistaken, your refusal to simply
answer "yes" or "no" to those 5 simple, historic, factual claims posted to the
official LDS Church website.

It is my opinion that the claims are so framed such that a Mormon, or anyone
else, can answer "yes" and/or "no" to each claim and that Mormons in particular
have a position regarding each (e.g., either "yes" and/or "no").

As I have noted, one of the utilitarian purposes of the poll is to observe the
lengths Mormons will go to in order to evade simply "giving an answer" on these
matters; matters important enough to have been presented as part of the official
LDS Church history.

Thanks for the demonstration.

Now, is there anyone else here that wishes to participate; maybe even "give an
answer"?

Sincerely,
Robert Baty
http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

P.S. Speakin of all that righteous indignation stuff, have you noted Sergio's
Mormon claims:

> From: Sergio Roa Prado (LDS Apologist)
> Time/Date: 6:45 PM on February 10, 2012
>
> My authority came from God who
> gave authority to Jesus,
> to Peter,
> to Joseph Smith,
> and finally to me.
>
> This is called authority line.

and this:

> From: Sergio Roa Prado (LDS Apologist)
> Time/Date: 10:01 AM on February 17, 2012
>
> I win.
> I have authority.
> I have authority line, and
> you have not.

(This is the final batch, and hopefully they will post without the delay and
duplication issues reflected in my earlier efforts to complete the posting of
these important messages.-RLBaty)

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58244-welcome-message/

(26)

From: RLBaty

Thanks for your participation.

I'll put you down with the others as "yes" to all 5.

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

(27)

From: volgadon

In other words, the point of your poll is to gather any result on which you can
place a negative spin.

This gives you another means with which to beat Mormons over the head. If people
thought you even somewhat sincerely interested in honest dialogue, then more
would take your poll.

(28)

From: blackstrap

how do you know that bonifide mormons are answering your poll?

Must one swear an affadavit?

(29)

From: RLBaty

volgadon, on 01 July 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

> In other words, the point of your poll is to
> gather any result which you can put a negative
> spin on.
>
> This gives you something else with which to beat
> Mormons over the head.
>
> If people thought you even somewhat sincerely
> interested in honest dialogue, then more would
> take your poll.

You seem to present the presumptive view so often expressed by Mormons when
trying to deal with their opposition.

Thanks for the demonstration.

There are many utilitarian purposes to the poll.  As I noted earlier; to each
his own!

As far as I am concerned, your allegations are false.

Why not try a little honest dialogue by first "giving an answer" to the 5
simple, factual, historic claims posted to the official LDS Church website and,
if you have an honest interest in these matters, we can chat about it.

You might also search the history of the poll and my interests therein to
further educate yourself on things about which you apparently are quite
UNinformed (uh oh, I'm starting to sound like a Mormon, aren't I).

As far as answering the questions, my honesty or lack thereof, and my purposes,
or lack thereof are quite irrelevant.

Mormons either believe the claims their church makes, or they don't.

They are either willing to tell, or they aren't.

I think maybe some Mormons believe those claims and, for reasons already given
elsewhere (check them out), some don't.

Will the Mormons talk?

That's part of what the exercise is all about.

The Internet screams, "Ask a Mormon"!

I am!

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

(30)

From: volgadon

I see three outcomes to the poll, perhaps there are more.

If most people answer in the positive,
you can say look how many Mormons believe
in such horrible behaviour!

If most people answer in the negative,
you can say look how many Mormons lie
about their history!

If most people decline to answer,
you can say look how many Mormons evade
the facts!

In other words, it seems like you will twist whatever outcome to suit your
agenda, so why should anyone be bothered to answer?

(31)

From: RLBaty

blackstrap, on 01 July 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

> How do you know that bonifide mormons are
> answering your poll?
>
> Must one swear an affadavit?

Except for the anonymous poster here, I think I have good reason to believe that
the other 5 participants are bonafide Mormons.

Their names are listed with the poll results on my list.

It's more than just names; they have an Internet history.

That's one of the down sides of anonymity, depending on your perspective.

Anonymous participants' answers will not receive the same consideration as those
known Mormons.

That's life!

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

(32)

From: volgadon

> They are either willing to tell,
> or they aren't.

We are either inclined to vote in a trolling poll,
or we aren't.

(33)

From: RLBaty

volgadon, on 01 July 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

> I see three outcomes to the poll, perhaps
> there are more.
>
> If most people answer in the positive,
> you can say look how many Mormons believe
> in such horrible behaviour!
>
> If most people answer in the negative,
> you can say look how many Mormons lie
> about their history!
>
> If most people decline to answer, you can
> say look how many Mormons evade the facts!
>
> In other words, it seems like you will twist
> whatever outcome to suit your agenda, so why
> should anyone be bothered to answer?

That's false, but it is the sort of thing that is become quite an obvious tactic
of evasion from Mormon sources, in my experience.

Would you like to give me your answer to the poll questions?

Would you actually like to discuss the legitimate, utilitarian purposes of the
poll?

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

(34)

From: volgadon

> Would you actually like to discuss the legitimate,
> utilitarian purposes of the poll?

If there are any, do please share.

(35)

From: volgadon

I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt.

I did so this time as well, but then I went to your yahoo group.

(36)

From: RLBaty

I read somewhere that:

> The Purpose of Mormon Dialogue
>
> People of all faiths are welcome to engage
> in gentlemanly discussion about topics
> related to The Church of Jesus Christ of
> Latter-day Saints.

That's part of why I signed up after seeing a Mormon promoting the list on the
Internet in response to a news article he was otherwise critical of.  He
indicated this was something like "the lion's den" as if to challenge critics to
make their appearance.

Ha!  I notice that none here have yet to requite my love and make their
appearance at my place.

Sincerely,
Robert Baty
http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

(37)

From: bluebell

RLBaty, on 01 July 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

> I will note your efforts and, unless I am
> mistaken, your refusal to simply answer
> "yes" or "no" to those 5 simple, historic,
> factual claims posted to the official LDS
> Church website.

It's been noted that you noted it.  :good:

(39)

From: RLBaty

volgadon, on 01 July 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

> I believe in giving people the benefit of
> the doubt.
>
> I did so this time as well, but then I went
> to your yahoo group.

Did you happen to notice that Ray Ausban just posted a note to my list.

He's a bonafide Mormon, as far as I can tell.

He came over from The Christian Post.

He puts y'all to shame.

Here's a link direct to his latest message to which I will be responding
shortly:

http://groups.yahoo....y/message/27615

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

(40)

From: bluebell

I have noted that your definition of the word 'antics' is messed up.

I'm glad to go on record as not having participated in your poll though, messed
up definition of 'antics' not withstanding.

History will vindicate me!

(41)

From: Garden Girl

Baty's tone of his posts and his demand for a "simple yes or no" answer to his
questions is enough to turn me off of any interest in participating... not all
questions can be answered with a simple yes or no (I could probably do so
depending on how the questions are worded, but I have little hope that Baty is
truly interested in an open dialog as yes or no does not foster dialog)... his
agenda is apparent just by his tone and attitude.

All of us who participate regularly here have had numerous open, honest
discussions with non-members and critics alike on a wide variety of church
doctrine and related issues.

As for being anonymous... I don't see what my real name would add to any
discussion... I don't post my real name anywhere on the internet unless I am
very sure of the people involved... and I see no reason to post my name for
Baty.

GG

(42)

From: RLBaty

bluebell, on 01 July 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

> I have noted that your definition of the
> word 'antics' is messed up.
>
> I'm glad to go on record as not having
> participated in your poll though, messed
> up definition of 'antics' not withstanding.
>
> History will vindicate me!  ;)

NOPE!

I don't think history is going to be vindicating you.

But it will vindicate my analysis of such antics as you display in evading
engaging in open, honest discussion of these important, public issues.

Sincerely,
Robert Baty
http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

(43)

From: RLBaty

Garden Girl, on 01 July 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

> Baty's tone of his posts and his demand for a
> "simple yes or no" answer to his questions is
> enough to turn me off of any interest in
> participating... not all questions can be
> answered with a simple yes or no (I could
> probably do so depending on how the questions
> are worded, but I have little hope that Baty
> is truly interested in an open dialog as yes
> or no does not foster dialog)... his agenda
> is apparent just by his tone and attitude.
>
> All of us who participate regularly here have
> had numerous open, honest discussions with
> non-members and critics alike on a wide variety
> of church doctrine and related issues.
>
> As for being anonymous... I don't see what my
> real name would add to any discussion... I don't
> post my real name anywhere on the internet unless
> I am very sure of the people involved... and I
> see no reason to post my name for Baty.

I have already dealt with those issues, but will add this to encourage the
poster to either "give an answer" or continue his/her run.

The claims are clearly enough stated, from the official LDS Church website that
one, especially a Mormon, should be able to easily answer "yes" or "no" to each
claim indicating whether or not they believe the claims made on the LDS Church
webpage.

If you don't think so, we can discuss your problem.  Other Mormons have had no
such problem in answering, where they have not been like so many others and
played these "Mormon Games" in refusing to "give an answer".

Anonymity has its advantages; particularly in playing Internet games such as has
been going on from the Mormon side of things here.
I get it.

Feel free to remain anonymous.  It has its consequences.  I get it.  Really.

I'm a little curious about another matter.  Is no one asking me to post the poll
here, and not posting it themselves, because they simply don't even want readers
here to have ready access to what Mormons are evading "giving an answer"
regarding what they believe?

Sincerely,
Robert Baty
http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

(44)

From: bluebell

RLBaty, on 01 July 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

> NOPE!
>
> I don't think history is going to be vindicating
> you.
>
> But it will vindicate my analysis of such antics
> as you display in evading engaging in open, honest
> discussion of these important, public issues.

Sorry, that 'vindicate me' quote's a history inside joke that i just could NOT
resist.

Seriously though, knock yourself out with the analyzing and all the judging.  I
promise not to loose any sleep over it.  In fact, i've got some great things to
do tonight and probably won't be back to this conversation so i'll even help you
prove your superiority to me by giving you the last word.  :D

(and seriously, learn the definition of 'antics'.)

(45)

From: RLBaty

bluebell, on 01 July 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

> Sorry, that 'vindicate me' quote's a history
> inside joke that i just could NOT resist.
>
> Seriously though, knock yourself out with the
> analyzing and all the judging.
>
> I promise not to loose any sleep over it.
>
> In fact, i've got some great things to do
> tonight and probably won't be back to this
> conversation so i'll even help you prove your
> superiority to me by giving you the last word.
>
> :D
>
> (and seriously, learn the definition of 'antics'.)

HA!  Thanks for giving me another opportunity to reference some of my favorite
Bible verses!

Matthew 7:1,2
James 3:1

If you have a problem understanding the application to y'all's antics here, let
me know; I'm open to conversation.

For instance, after you "give an answer" to the poll issues as a reflection of
your good faith in these important matters, we can then consider quibbling a bit
about the definition problem you are having with regard to "antics".

I guess of the Mormon apologist Brian Casaday can quibble about cocoa and bait
people with the question about how many children Joseph Smith had, I can discuss
the meaning I use when talking about "antics".

And your answer to the poll issues are?????

Or is this the last word you are going to let me have as far as your involvement
in these matters???

Sincerely,
Robert Baty
http://groups.yahoo....Maury_and_Baty/

(46)

From: calmoriah

volgadon, on 01 July 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

> I believe in giving people the benefit of the
> doubt.
>
> I did so this time as well, but then I went
> to your yahoo group.

Exactly...

(47)

From: calmoriah

Quote

> I'm a little curious about another matter.
>
> Is no one asking me to post the poll here,
> and not posting it themselves, because they
> simply don't even want readers here to have
> ready access to what Mormons are evading
> "giving an answer" regarding what they believe?

Not by me.

It is against the board rules to have confrontational posts/debates here in
Social Hall.

This is supposed to be for social support and fun stuff.  This is not the
"lion's mouth" but a room full of kittens.

If the mods close down the thread, just think...you can claim that once again
you are proven that LDS will evade, etc. etc.  You would be wrong...but I don't
expect that to stop you.

If you want the poll posted, you might contact the mods and ask for the thread
to be moved or something else to the main forum.  Good luck with that one.....

(48)

RLBaty

calmoriah, on 01 July 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

> It is against the board rules to have confrontational
> posts/debates here in Social Hall.
>
> This is supposed to be for social support and fun
> stuff.
>
> This is not the "lion's mouth" but a room full of
> kittens.
>
> If the mods close down the thread, just think...
> you can claim that once again you are proven that
> LDS will evade, etc. etc.
>
> You would be wrong...
> but I don't expect that to stop you.
>
> If you want the poll posted, you might contact
> the mods and ask for the thread to be moved or
> something else to the main forum.
>
> Good luck with that one.....

Who is not having fun?
Who is being confrontational?

Linda Fiatoa expressed some concern recently, warning me not to put words in her
mouth!

Ha!

It seems Mormons here are pretty good at trying to anticipate what words will
come out of my mouth based on speculative developments.

I pretty much let moderators do what moderators do.

If they pull the plug on this thread or otherwise tamper with the evidence, I
won't necessary attribute it to evasion.  How I characterize it may depend on
what, if any, explanation is given.  If they attribute their action to any
unseemly comments from me, or the posting of my poll, I will be very critical of
their actions since it is the Mormons here who seem less inclined to have fun in
taking part in my poll and discussing its relevant, important, public issues.

I have to get in 25 posts, I hear, before I can go anywhere else here.

So, why don't I just post my poll, for the fun of it, and see if that might
encourate Mormons to participate, for the record in this important, public
exercise regarding the proposition "Ask a Mormon"?

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

(49)

From: RLBaty

OK, here it is!

The poll issues, current responses to date, and the official LDS Church website
whereof the poll issues were derived:

Poll Issues:

> (A) God revealed the doctrine of
> plural marriage to Joseph Smith?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
>> Violets (Anonymous Mormon) - Yes

> (B) God commanded Joseph Smith
> to live it?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
>> Violets (Anonymous Mormon) - Yes

> ? Joseph Smith taught the
> doctrine to some associates?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - Yes
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
>> Violets (Anonymous Mormon) - Yes

> (D) Joseph Smith and a number of
> his associates entered into plural
> marriages?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - Yes
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
>> Violets (Anonymous Mormon) - Yes

> (E) Joseph Smith and his associates
> needed and received personal inspiration
> from God to help them enter in to
> plural marriages?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
>> Violets (Anonymous Mormon) - Yes

"Official" Mormon Website:

http://classic.lds.o...0004d82620aRCRD

Now, who wants to have some NON-confrontational fun in discussion one or more of
the various aspects of the poll?

Anyone?

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

(50)

RLBaty

For your enjoyment and further education regarding the history of these
important public matters, I have posted a note at my place that explains a
little more about how I came to be here.

Also, I note that still none here have requited my love and dared to show up at
my place.

Here's the link to my just posted note about how I came to be here:

http://groups.yahoo....y/message/27619

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

(51)

From: calmoriah

Quote

> Also, I note that still none here have requited
> my love and dared to show up at my place.

I've been warned about going to meet strangers off of the internet, especially
those protesting love and romance....

http://www.dangersof...rnetdating.com/

(52)

RLBaty

calmoriah, on 01 July 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

> I've been warned about going to meet strangers
> off of the internet, especially those protesting
> love and romance....
>
> http://www.dangersof...rnetdating.com/

I would hope that was not intended as another lame explanation as to why you
haven't made an appearance at my place.

If so, feel free to find a surrogate to represent you there.

I've seen so many non-anonymous Mormons all over the Internet, and I've been
inviting them to my place.

Ray showed up and is a member, and Linda even sent a message though remaining a
non-member.

Others have stayed away for less than legitimate reasons.

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

(53)

From: RLBaty

For those who may really be to "scared" to even click on my links, here's that
message (excerpts) I just posted explaining how I came to be here (note also the
polygamy reference made by the Mormon):

Todd's recent message provided the following link to a news article about
Mormons leaving their church:

http://www.mormondia...elcome-message/
(Wrong link - RLBaty)

Here's an excerpt from one of the reader's comments:

> From: Kerry Wallace (Mormon Apologist)
> Date: June 18, 2012
>
> You have all the information you want and all
> from the mouth of the Lion as you so aptly put it.
>
> Where did you get your info about...
> How about Joseph Smith's polygamy?
> And the...
> You talk about the Lion's mouth.
>
> I will never refer someone of your obvious
> intelligence and open mind (wreathing with
> sarcasm) to mormon.org or lds.org but you
> might want to try..., and finally for a fun
> debate filled experience
>
>> http://www.mormondialogue.org/.
>
> Now these are the mouth of the lion.
>
> They actually offer answers not just...
>
> I as a member of the LDS church invite all
> to investigate, research, study, ponder and
> pray.
>
> I challenge you to overcome your personal
> prejudice and...
>
> But by all means be civil and respectful
> no matter what your answer is.

And so I did!

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

(end of discussion thread in the Mormons "lion's den")

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

Recently Robert posted an article criticizing church's and their charity
expenditures. I never did reply to that one though the LDS church was cited for
giving away one billion dollars since 1985.

The money cited was from a segregated donation fund for humanitarian relief are
the world, where most of the funds are spent each year.

Th question I have is this: are there any world famous atheist charities? And do
atheists generally donate to charity? If 'concern' for others is simply a 'human
thing' then shouldn't atheists donate as much money as every one else? Maybe
they do and I simply don't know about it, so please inform me.

http://millercase.org/home/updates/31-trial-in-august.html

MillerCase.org

The Case
What We Believe

Updates
Basis For Involvement
Background
How to Help
About Ken

Trial in August

Published on Saturday, 30 June 2012 16:45

Please do pray earnestly for the situation and all involved. Ken and his family
sense a great need for the mercy and grace of God to help them face whatever
lies ahead for the next few months.

Trial dates have been set for Tuesday, August 7 through Friday, August 17. The
prosecution seems to be bringing an aggressive and comprehensive case, with many
witnesses beinig called.

More than $50,000 has been expended in legal fees.

Due to the complexity of the case and a longer trial than anticipated, another
$50,000 will likely be spent. Ken and his family are needing to lean hard upon
God.

-------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------

Ray,

Here's another link that discusses your "atheist charity" issue and provides
numerous links and descriptions of atheist charities:

http://www.squidoo.com/Atheist-Charities

Sincerely,
Robert Baty

P.S. Did you notice that I put in a plug for you over
at the MormonDialogue? :o)

--- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
"Ray" <rayausban@...> wrote:

> Recently Robert posted an article criticizing
> church's and their charity expenditures. I never
> did reply to that one though the LDS church was
> cited for giving away one billion dollars since 1985.
>
> The money cited was from a segregated donation fund
> for humanitarian relief are the world, where most
> of the funds are spent each year.
>
> The question I have is this: are there any world
> famous atheist charities? And do atheists generally
> donate to charity? If 'concern' for others is simply
> a 'human thing' then shouldn't atheists donate as
> much money as every one else? Maybe they do and I
> simply don't know about it, so please inform me.

---------------------------
---------------------------

http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/blogs/ken-ham/2012/07/02/the-death-of-darwinis\
m/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+KenHam+%28Around+t\
he+World+with+Ken+Ham%29

The Death of Darwinism

July 2, 2012
by Ken Ham

The past few days Answers in Genesis staff and a team of volunteers have been
distributing over $50,000 worth of DVDs, books, and magazines to thousands of
government school teachers and administrators at the National Education
Association annual conference in Washington, DC.

One of the AiG staff members who has been manning the booth at this conference
sent me the following:

> The theme for this year's outreach at the annual NEA
> conference is "The Death of Darwinism." The NEA
> (National Education Association) is the nation's
> largest labor union in America, with over 3 million
> members, and which primarily represents public school
> teachers. It is one of the most liberal organizations
> in America today, promoting homosexual behavior,
> abortion, etc. It is a tremendous blessing from the
> Lord that AiG has been able to donate tens of thousands
> of dollars' worth of creation and gospel materials for
> the past 16 years to the "NEA Creation Science Educators'
> Caucus" to be freely distributed to thousands of school
> teachers.

> The NEA outreach we have has been fertile ground for
> "creation evangelism." For the first ten years or so,
> we were demolishing the evolutionary ideas taught as
> fact in many public schools. And for the last few
> years, we have been strongly promoting the gospel
> message with 20-foot banners exalting Jesus Christ
> as the Creator and Redeemer.

> This year's banner, "The Death of Darwinism," has a
> two-fold message:
>
> First, life only comes from life, also known as the
> law of biogenesis. True operational science (as
> famously demonstrated by Louis Pasteur in the 1800's)
> has shown that life never comes from non-life.

> Secondly, the origin of life is actually the Lord
> Jesus Christ. The Bible proclaims Jesus Christ as
> the eternal life from whom all things have been created.
> "All things came into being through Him, and apart from
> Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
> In Him was life…" (John 1:3–4).

> Darwinian evolution requires life to have spontaneously
> generated from inorganic matter millions of years ago.
> Observational science has disproven this outdated notion
> of spontaneous generation even in the minds of evolutionists,
> yet Darwinists dream that it must have happened at least
> once millions of years ago.

> That's not science; that's blind faith.

> Christians have the true history of the universe, as found
> in the Bible. Our faith is based upon the Word of God and
> cannot be shaken by the vain imaginations of Darwinists.
> The Bible clearly proclaims that Jesus Christ (eternal
> life in 1 John 1:2) is the Creator of the universe, from
> whom all life comes and true science, such as the law of
> biogenesis, confirms this.

> Donors to a special NEA fund have been pleased to support
> this outreach for many years. If you would like to see
> this special creation evangelism ministry continue, please
> consider designating your donation to AiG to the special
> "NEA fund."

> Thank you.

Starting this weekend, 3,000 copies of the evangelistic Check This Out DVD will
be given away to mostly unbelieving school teachers and administrators (along
with thousands of other DVDs, books, and magazines). Praise the Lord, we are
also able to encourage and strengthen the few Christian teachers who are NEA
delegates.

Please pray for the teachers this week, that the Lord would open their hearts
and minds to the truths of God's Word (especially the gospel message) and that
our staff and volunteers will be sharing with them one on one.

Check out the Creation Science Educators Caucus blog, which has been updated
multiple times daily:

http://csecaucus.org/blog/

Thanks for stopping by,

Ken Ham

-------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------

http://www.christianpost.com/news/mormons-resign-en-masse-in-public-77497/

(1)

From: Colin Ramsbottom (Mormon Apologist)
Time/Date: 6:12 AM EDT on July 02, 2012

150 left whilst millions around the world still went
to Church.....perhaps the headline should have read.....

> 'Millions of Mormons around the world
> remain committed to their faith'.

(2)

From: NonAnonymous (aka Robert Baty)
Time/Date: 1:05 PM EDT on July 02, 2012

To Colin Ramsbottom -

I would like to ask YOU, as a Mormon, to take part
in my Mormon poll. Please, simply indicate with a
"yes" or "no" whether YOU, a Mormon, believe each
of the factual claims made on one of the official
LDS Church websites:

Poll Issues:

> (A) God revealed the doctrine of
> plural marriage to Joseph Smith?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
>> Violets/rpn (Anonymous Mormon) - Yes

> (B) God commanded Joseph Smith
> to live it?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
>> Violets/rpn (Anonymous Mormon) - Yes

> (C) Joseph Smith taught the
> doctrine to some associates?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - Yes
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
>> Violets/rpn (Anonymous Mormon) - Yes

> (D) Joseph Smith and a number of
> his associates entered into plural
> marriages?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - Yes
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
>> Violets/rpn (Anonymous Mormon) - Yes

> (E) Joseph Smith and his associates
> needed and received personal inspiration
> from God to help them enter in to
> plural marriages?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
>> Violets/rpn (Anonymous Mormon) - Yes

"Official" Mormon Website:

http://classic.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?index=16&locale=0&sourceId=9887ec6f164\
\
b2110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

Sincerely,
Robert Baty
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/

-------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------

The following testimony from Colin helps explain why he should be an excellent
participant in the poll exercise:

http://www.4thought.tv/themes/does-mormonism-offer-a-better-path-than-other-fait\
hs/richard-auger

> From: Colin Ramsbottom
> Date: May 6, 2012
>
> The thing which distinguishes the Church of Jesus
> Christ of Latter-day Saints is that we believe in
> modern revelation.... that God continues to guide
> us as he did at the time of Moses, Abraham and all
> the other prophets.
>
> After His death and resurrection this revelation
> continued with the Apostles and Paul etc, until
> they were all killed.
>
> The Gospel was restored to the earth through the
> Prophet Joseph Smith.
>
> Christ is at the head of His Church today, and
> guides us through a living prophet and 12 Apostles
> as He did when he was personally on the earth.
>
> It is this direction through these 'special witnesses'
> of Christ, along with the direction we receive as we
> study the scriptures, and prayer that we receive
> answers for our problems today.
>
> Millions around the world have found out for themselves
> that this is true...
>
> I know He's still guiding us through a living prophet
> and the 12 Apostles today.

--------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------

http://www.christianpost.com/news/what-do-mormons-believe-ex-mormon-speaks-out-p\
art-two-58494/

(1)

From: Dory Delancey (Mormon Apologist)
Time/Date: 1:17 PM EDT on July 02, 2012

It is not easy being a Mormon at all.

The writings of Johntson are very far from the truth.

However Johnston I love you with the love of Christ
Jesus and only by his blood can we be saved.

"Both men die", Wow!

We serve a living God.

I have being a Mormon for about 12 years and teach Sunday
school.

Most people believe that Mormon or members of The Church
of Jesus Christ is a cult.

I use to be one of those people.

I never read the Book of Mormon for myself at that time.
I trust only the words of my Pastor when it came to the Mormons.

I was born Baptist and attended a Catholic School so I
know about different Christian faiths. Yes I can clearly
say Mormons are Christian it is in the name The Church
of Jesus Christ.

What is the Book of Mormon?

I will tell you however in addition to what I say you
need to pick it up for your self and read it.

The Book tells about a Prophet name Lehi who lived in
Jerusalem. Lehi loved God and God spoke to Lehi and
tell him to warn to people to turn from their wick ways.

The people got angry and tried to kill Lehi.

God told Lehi to get away from Jerusalem and go to
American.

Lehi and his generation kept a record of his people
and prophesies he receive from God. Some Prophesies
were told hundreds of years before its time.

These records are The Book of Mormon.

The main prophesies was that there will be a Savior
born of a virgin name Mary and baptize by a man name
John the Baptist.

Keeping in mind that their were no cell phones or
computers the prophesies could of only came from God
his self.

The stories are wonderful and inspiring.

The Book of Mormon testifies that the Bible is real
and people on the other side of the world receive word
of the Savior's Birth, Life and Death and Resurrection.

Because Christ lives there is victory!

Is the Book of Mormon important?

Well to me it is, because it was life changing, to you
it may not be so then stay Catholic, Baptist or whatever
your faith is.

One of the most important object is we study and find
ourselves approve and take no one word on our only life.

Pray about everything to Heavenly Father.

(2)

From: NonAnonymous (aka Robert Baty)
1:21 PM on July 02, 2012

To Dory Delancey (Mormon Apologist) -

I would like to ask you to take part in my my
Mormon poll.

Will YOU, a Mormon, please indicate with a simple
"yes" or "no" whether or not you believe certain,
specific, factual, historical claims taken from
an official LDS website:

Poll Issues:

> (A) God revealed the doctrine of
> plural marriage to Joseph Smith?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
>> Violets/rpn (Anonymous Mormon) - Yes

> (B) God commanded Joseph Smith
> to live it?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
>> Violets/rpn (Anonymous Mormon) - Yes

> (C) Joseph Smith taught the
> doctrine to some associates?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - Yes
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
>> Violets/rpn (Anonymous Mormon) - Yes

> (D) Joseph Smith and a number of
> his associates entered into plural
> marriages?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - Yes
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
>> Violets/rpn (Anonymous Mormon) - Yes

> (E) Joseph Smith and his associates
> needed and received personal inspiration
> from God to help them enter in to
> plural marriages?
>
>> Robert Baty (non-Mormon) - No
>>
>> Ray Ausban (Mormon) - Yes
>> Linda Fiatoa (Mormon) - Yes
>> Ryan Heath (Mormon) - Yes
>> George de Metz (Mormon) - Yes
>> Aaron Ulrich (Mormon) - Yes
>> Violets/rpn (Anonymous Mormon) - Yes

"Official" Mormon Website:

http://classic.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?index=16&locale=0&sourceId=9887ec6f164\
\
b2110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

Sincerely,
Robert Baty
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/

-----------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------

http://www.christianpost.com/news/mormons-resign-en-masse-in-public-77497/

(1)

From: k0nod541 (Mormon Apologist)
Time/Date: 1:33 PM EDT on July 02, 2012

To NonAnonymous (aka Robert Baty) -

I will continue to be unimpressed until you agree
to meet in public on the Mormon Misc. radio program
and defend your statements against the LDS faith.

Mormon Misc., Sundays at 5pm Mountain, k-talk.com
Call in anytime!

(2)

From: NonAnonymous (aka Robert Baty)
Time/Date: 1:42 PM EDT on July 02, 2012

To k0nod541 -

Why don't you show a little good faith and "give an answer"
to each of 5 simple, factual claims I have taken from an
official LDS Church website.

If your radio buddies want to also answer up and discuss
the poll and the claims I make for it, feel free to have
them contact me.

I been chasing plenty of Mormon rabbits in recent days.

It's past time for them to start cooperating in the
simplest of matters.

We can work out any necessary logistical details about
my radio appearance at the appropriate time.

I've been calling and calling and calling for Mormons
to "give an answer" on these 5 simple, factual claims.

It's time for Mormons to "man-up" and start "giving an
answer".

Will they?

Will they continue to run?

Sincerely,
Robert Baty
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------