I hear this paint suggested as a type of choice for marbling. What ever
goache I have here simply has never brought me any decent results. So--I
open a discussion on goache for marbling. And a niave question--isn't water
colour a Type of goache?????
Jill
Gouache is an opaque watercolor. The success or failure of the gouache
depends on how it is made. They all have "dispersants"(either an ox-gall or
detergent/soap type dispersant) in some amount or other in the formulas,
which is at the root of the problem. Some have more than others....so some
colors spread too much and some too little. Windsor & Newton seems to be
the most reliable brand, though the different colors have differing
amounts, and even this is not consistent. One batch of Cadmium red may be
perfect, then you buy it again and it has too much dispersant, spreads too
much, turns orange-pink and makes all the other colors sink. It is a
terribly annoying problem.
Tempera paints, some work some don't for the same reasons. This is why I
have made a 15+ year study of paintmaking for marbling(an ongoing, lifetime
process!). I am not taking this as an opportunity to sell my supplies, but
the best paints for marbling are made by marbling suppliers, where the
maker is also an active marbler. Colophon Book Arts Supply in Olympia, WA,
also makes an excellent marbling paint, originally developed by Don Guyot,
now taken over by Nancy Morains. Our paints are formulated differently, but
both work really well.
There are always problems with any marbling paints because marbling is a
tricky process. There are days where even with the right supplies, nothing
works. Then the next day you do the same thing and it does work.
Hopefully this will explain why people have problems with gouache. The same
problems apply to tube watercolors for the same reason. The watercolors are
more expensive and overall work less well than the gouaches. If you want to
work with gouache, try the Windsor & Newton, people say they are best, and
I would advise to stick to the traditional colors and mix others from
them.....Lamp Black, Ultramarine, Yellow Ochre, Red Ochre, Burnt Sienna and
Umber, Rose Madder, also the Cadmium reds and yellows work well. With
marbling, chemical and physical properties of the pigments come into play,
and many of the other colors will not work. There was a reason the old
timers hundreds of years ago used these particular colors...they were
friendly to the marbling process and worked well and mixed well together.
Iris Nevins
I think that Iris has explained in a most eloquent way why gouache doesn't
always work with marbling.
I have also been using Winsor & Newton colors, some with success some
without. I have also used certain Talens gouache tubes and George Rowney
watercolor paints i.e. transparent colors, which are not supposed to work
for marbling, with success.
As Iris pointed out, certain colors behaved
beautifully and others either spread without control or sank or didn't let
other colors spread nicely. Indeed, only
by trial and error is it possible to find out what works and what doesn't.
I haven't ever used marbling inks because I don't marble that often any
more. Yet I would like to ask Iris how these inks are diluted to reach
the right consistency. I know when gouache is OK because I have used it so
many times, but I would like to buy marbling inks and try my luck with
them.
Evi Parissi
Hi Evi.....
Marbling "inks" as people insist on calling them, are really paint,
technically speaking, being pigment based. But people like to call them
inks, so I accept either term when speaking to people.....after all we are
talking about the same substance! It's just easier.
When I used gouache years ago, I diluted the tube with 1 -2 cups of water.
My own colors (to avoid the use of the terms paint or inks!) need no
dilution, unless someone wants to use them thinner. Generally they are
ready as-is. Colophon's colors, at least when Don was making them (I don't
know if Nancy is using the same formulations, but I believe she is), come
as a concentrate, and there should be directions on the jar. Basically, one
thins them to the consistency they like.
One big mistake people make is thinking that a thicker denser paint will
give a brighter color. Not so , because, remember you are dealing with an
important physical property.....specific gravity. The drops of paint must
be LIGHTER in weight than the bath, or they will sink. The cadmiums, reds
in particular (and yellow & orange to a lesser degree) are lead-based (not
dangerous in the liquid form, but a danger when making the paint and
breathing the pigment powders), and have a high specific gravity. That is
why many people have the most trouble with reds. They use them densely,
thinking they will get a deep red, but by the time they lay the paper, some
of the color has started to sink a hair below the size surface and they
come up with a dull liver color red. So with reds, proper dilution is
extra-necessary. Adding a little more water in this case, gives a better
red.
So, to answer the question.....dilution of each color may be an individual
process for each of them. Experiment until it works for you.
Iris
Actually, I have had much better results with gouache paints than with
marbling inks. I've been frustrated for years with pale colors (even
"deep red" turns out pink!) using well-known inks. Gouache produces
strong colors for me.
Because it's relatively expensive, I've just recently begun experimenting
with acrylics and , so far, like the results. Unfortunately I have little
time to play, so I may get to marble only three or four times a year.
That leads to lots of waste as the marbling inks settle into a
hard-to-stir mass at the bottom of their jars. The tubes of gouache and
acrylics are still usable after months.
Lavinia Adler
On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 17:52:32 -0500 "J Dolphin" <jdolphin@...>
writes:
> From: "J Dolphin" <jdolphin@...>
>
> I hear this paint suggested as a type of choice for marbling.
> What ever
> goache I have here simply has never brought me any decent results.
> So--I
> open a discussion on goache for marbling. And a niave
> question--isn't water
> colour a Type of goache?????
> Jill
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
> ----------------------------
>
> Shabang.com is the place to get your FREE eStore, Absolutely FREE
> Forever. If you have any desires to sell your products or services
> online, or you want to expand your customer base for FREE, Come
> check
> out Shabang.com FREE eStores.
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/shabang ">Click Here</a>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Community email addresses:
> Post message: Marbling@onelist.com
> Subscribe: Marbling-subscribe@onelist.com
> Unsubscribe: Marbling-unsubscribe@onelist.com
> List owner: Marbling-owner@onelist.com
>
> Shortcut URL to this page:
> http://www.onelist.com/community/Marbling
>
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
I too use gouache and watercolour with fairly good results.
At 09:18 PM 18-02-2000 -0500, you wrote:
>From: Lavinia Adler <laviniaa@...>
>
>Actually, I have had much better results with gouache paints than with
>marbling inks. I've been frustrated for years with pale colors (even
>"deep red" turns out pink!) using well-known inks. Gouache produces
>strong colors for me.
>
>Because it's relatively expensive, I've just recently begun experimenting
>with acrylics and , so far, like the results. Unfortunately I have little
>time to play, so I may get to marble only three or four times a year.
>That leads to lots of waste as the marbling inks settle into a
>hard-to-stir mass at the bottom of their jars. The tubes of gouache and
>acrylics are still usable after months.
>
>Lavinia Adler
>
>On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 17:52:32 -0500 "J Dolphin" <jdolphin@...>
>writes:
>> From: "J Dolphin" <jdolphin@...>
>>
>> I hear this paint suggested as a type of choice for marbling.
>> What ever
>> goache I have here simply has never brought me any decent results.
>> So--I
>> open a discussion on goache for marbling. And a niave
>> question--isn't water
>> colour a Type of goache?????
>> Jill
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.
.-P
John Ang Cheng Siew
My Paper Marbling Website: <home3.pacific.net.sg/~johnacs>
When I marbled on a regular basis, I used colors from various suppliers
(Don Guyot, TALAS, Dryad, Maurer and Cockerel) and they all worked fine
when things were working.
After a ten-year lapse, I just did a session with a local artist using
W&N gouache (colors suggested by Iris) and had great results.
I would like to grind some local dirt (the magic of Jerusalem earth?!)
and marble with it, but how can I tell in advance if it's going to work,
and if it's colorfast.
Yehuda Miklaf
So--readers will note that Onelist now has chat capacity--------okay
folks---we really Ought to take advantage of this--I know for certain I can
not host on a Wednesday/Thursday pm in there--as I work-----but i can switch
my schedule for alternating weekends--and alternating
Monday-Tuesdays...........
Can we have topics?
Can we have lectures?
Can we have presentations?
Let me know!
Jill
Hi All,
Just wanted to pass on the news that a marbling convention is being planned
for September 4-8, 2002 at Arrowmont School in Gatlinburg, Tennessee. It
will be called International "Marblers' Gathering 2002 -- Images, Surfaces
and Devices." Laura Sims and Mimi Schleicher are helping to plan it. There
will be a juried exhibition, demos and lectures. A web site for the
gathering is in the works. I'll keep you posted. Think about who you'd like
to hear speak, or see demonstrate.
Diane Maurer
Wow! I have ALREADY marked my planner! Tennessee, eh?.........Ought to be
nice there at that time of year!
Okay--let me think now---I hope and expect to meet people from THIS tiny
little list there--"fer shure".
You know--I have only heard of/read of these type of conventions over in
Europe--or Turkey---and I can't swim that far--but I CAN drive!
If there was one thing I'd want to see at something like this--would be
lectures on paints. And then demonstrations of some of the patterns.
Jill
-----Original Message-----
From: dkmaurer1@... <dkmaurer1@...>
To: marbling@onelist.com <marbling@onelist.com>
Date: Monday, February 21, 2000 11:01 AM
Subject: [Marbling] marbling convention
>From: dkmaurer1@...
>
>Hi All,
>
>Just wanted to pass on the news that a marbling convention is being planned
>for September 4-8, 2002 at Arrowmont School in Gatlinburg, Tennessee. It
>will be called International "Marblers' Gathering 2002 -- Images, Surfaces
>and Devices." Laura Sims and Mimi Schleicher are helping to plan it.
There
>will be a juried exhibition, demos and lectures. A web site for the
>gathering is in the works. I'll keep you posted. Think about who you'd
like
>to hear speak, or see demonstrate.
>
>Diane Maurer
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Shop the web for great deals. Save on Computers,
>electronics, Home furnishings and more.
>http://click.egroups.com/1/1559/4/_/_/_/951148888/
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Community email addresses:
> Post message: Marbling@onelist.com
> Subscribe: Marbling-subscribe@onelist.com
> Unsubscribe: Marbling-unsubscribe@onelist.com
> List owner: Marbling-owner@onelist.com
>
>Shortcut URL to this page:
> http://www.onelist.com/community/Marbling
>
Glad to have this forum!
Perhaps all know this except me... but I am wondering what I have to do to
get gold, copper, bronze to look metallic on the paper. Is there a special
ink/paint that works? All I have tried thus far, is Liquitex and doesn't
seem to be producing the results I want. Any ideas?
Marge Priser
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~kosco
I often mix mica particles, available from a papermaking supply house into
watercolor paint to achieve metallic colors. A teaspoon to about 1/2 cup of
color works great. You have to keep stirring the paint before you apply it
though, to keep the particles in suspension.
And Jill -- we've had three wonderful marblers' gatherings in the U.S. One in
Santa Fe, one in San Francisco, and another in Maryland. Ink & Gall, no
longer in existence, carried many articles about the gatherings with the text
of many of the lectures. I have a video of interviews with many marbling
artists discussing their work during the opening of the juried exhibition in
San Francisco. Wish you could all come over and watch it.......
Please allow me to introduce myself to all the listmembers. My name is Jake
Benson, and I have been marbling for nearly 10 years. My passion is studying
the early development and use of marbled papers in the Islamic world. This
has lead me to experiment with traditional marbling methods and color
preparation. Currently I make all of my paint from pigment and gum arabic
solution, which I then mull on a slab of lithograhpic stone with a glass
muller.
> Yehuda Miklaf asked:
> I would like to grind some local dirt (the magic of Jerusalem earth?!)
> and marble with it, but how can I tell in advance if it's going to work,
> and if it's colorfast.
I have actually experiemented with "found pigment". One time I used a number
of samples, including a particularly beautiful deep red lump of iron oxide,
gathered by a friend of mine while working as an epigrapher during an
excavation of a temple in Dakhla Oasis in Egypt. She theorized the ancients
may well have been used some of this type of local pigment to decorate the
temple. The Western Desert in Egypt is filled with iron oxide color, the
result of prehistoric volcanic eruptions, and there is a large modern mine
nearby the site, the source of much of Egypt's ochre, red, and brown paint
used today.
Many of the samples were too hard to hand grind. If a color is to be used, it
has to be ground very finely, then water is added, the solution is stirred
well so that there are no lumps, and the is saturated with color, then it is
allowed to settle briefly to allow the harder heaveier solids to settle, then
poured of into another container. The water is evaporated (or nearly so),
then the pigment is ground again in gum arabic solution using a muller on a
slab. The one beautiful lump of red I had instantly crumbled into nearly pure
iron oxide powder. It was no trouble grinding, with very minor "scratching",
yielding some of the best color I have ever prepared. When my friend goes
back to work there again, she try and find a little more.
Iron oxide colors were traditionally known as "Earth" colors, and they are
very lightfast. Historical colors that were so fugitive were known as "lake"
colors, and were made using a vegetable dye precipitated onto a mineral base
such as chalk or alum.
So, in short, Instead of chiseling something off the temple mount or the wall,
it would be better to look for an iron oxide mine near Jerusalem. I'm sure
you'll turn something up considering the whole region had plently of
prehistoric and biblical volcanic activity. Maybe if you bury it in Jerusalem
and dig it up it could be considered properly "consecrated"???
Have fun grinding!
Jake
The Newsletter of The Canadian Bookbinders and Book Artists Guild (v.17,
no.4 Winter 1999) has a lead article by Shelagh Smith entitled:
Watercolour Marbling; the use of Winsor & Newton artists watercolour as
marbling colour.
Yehuda Miklaf
Thank you to Jake for the informative reply. I assume that an initial
grinding would have to be done with some sort of mill, not just smashing
it up with a big hammer.
Yehuda
Hello Friends,
Laura Sims has asked me to collect your ideas and suggestions for topics and
demonstrators for the International Marbler's Gathering 2002. The mission
statement is : A symposium covering the historical past and traditional uses
of marbling, as well as the contemporary expansion of the marbling field. If
you'd like to be on the official mailing list, please send your snail mail
addresses and I'll forward them on to her as well.
Also, Simrat contacted me about the possibility of having the videotape of
the 1992 San Francisco gallery show copied so that you could mail it to each
other round-robin. I'll attempt to get it copied (barring any copyright
laws) this week. I'll mail it to him first and he'll organize the list of
interested people. Expect to hear from him soon!
Regards, Diane Maurer
P.S.
Please note that there's a 1 (one) in my e-mail address --there's another
Diane Maurer at AOL who will not forward my e-mail.
Dear Diane,
I like to be on the gathering's mailing list.
My address is
Blk626, Bukit Batok Central, #17-628
S650626
Singapore
At 12:25 PM 23/02/2000 EST, you wrote:
>From: dkmaurer1@...
>
>Hello Friends,
>
>Laura Sims has asked me to collect your ideas and suggestions for topics and
>demonstrators for the International Marbler's Gathering 2002. The mission
>statement is : A symposium covering the historical past and traditional uses
>of marbling, as well as the contemporary expansion of the marbling field. If
>you'd like to be on the official mailing list, please send your snail mail
>addresses and I'll forward them on to her as well.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John Ang
Singapore
email : <mailto:johnacs@...>
My Paper Marbling Web Site: <http://home3.pacific.net.sg/~johnacs/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Diane,
I like to be on the gathering's mailing list.
My address is
Blk626, Bukit Batok Central, #17-628
S650626
Singapore
At 12:25 PM 23/02/2000 EST, you wrote:
>From: dkmaurer1@...
>
>Hello Friends,
>
>Laura Sims has asked me to collect your ideas and suggestions for topics and
>demonstrators for the International Marbler's Gathering 2002. The mission
>statement is : A symposium covering the historical past and traditional uses
>of marbling, as well as the contemporary expansion of the marbling field. If
>you'd like to be on the official mailing list, please send your snail mail
>addresses and I'll forward them on to her as well.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John Ang
Singapore
email : <mailto:johnacs@...>
My Paper Marbling Web Site: <http://home3.pacific.net.sg/~johnacs/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Yehuda,
Is this newsletter available online. I cant seem to find it on cbbag.com
website.
At 08:48 PM 22/02/2000 +0200, you wrote:
>From: Yehuda Miklaf <mfritz@...>
>
>The Newsletter of The Canadian Bookbinders and Book Artists Guild (v.17,
>no.4 Winter 1999) has a lead article by Shelagh Smith entitled:
>Watercolour Marbling; the use of Winsor & Newton artists watercolour as
>marbling colour.
>
>Yehuda Miklaf
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John Ang
Singapore
email : <mailto:johnacs@...>
My Paper Marbling Web Site: <http://home3.pacific.net.sg/~johnacs/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>The Newsletter of The Canadian Bookbinders and Book Artists Guild (v.17,
>>no.4 Winter 1999) has a lead article by Shelagh Smith entitled:
>>Watercolour Marbling; the use of Winsor & Newton artists watercolour as
>>marbling colour.
>>
>>Yehuda Miklaf
I think Shelagh works out of Toronto--and has papers at the Japanese
Paper Place--for other readers here who are in that region.........(but
don't quote me!--well.....make that a definite Maybe! LOL)
Jill
>>The Newsletter of The Canadian Bookbinders and Book Artists Guild (v.17,
>>no.4 Winter 1999) has a lead article by Shelagh Smith entitled:
>>Watercolour Marbling; the use of Winsor & Newton artists watercolour as
>>marbling colour.
>>
>>Yehuda Miklaf
I think Shelagh works out of Toronto--and has papers at the Japanese
Paper Place--for other readers here who are in that region.........(but
don't quote me!--well.....make that a definite Maybe! LOL)
Jill
>>The Newsletter of The Canadian Bookbinders and Book Artists Guild (v.17,
>>no.4 Winter 1999) has a lead article by Shelagh Smith entitled:
>>Watercolour Marbling; the use of Winsor & Newton artists watercolour as
>>marbling colour.
>>
>>Yehuda Miklaf
I think Shelagh works out of Toronto--and has papers at the Japanese
Paper Place--for other readers here who are in that region.........(but
don't quote me!--well.....make that a definite Maybe! LOL)
Jill
>>The Newsletter of The Canadian Bookbinders and Book Artists Guild (v.17,
>>no.4 Winter 1999) has a lead article by Shelagh Smith entitled:
>>Watercolour Marbling; the use of Winsor & Newton artists watercolour as
>>marbling colour.
>>
>>Yehuda Miklaf
I think Shelagh works out of Toronto--and has papers at the Japanese
Paper Place--for other readers here who are in that region.........(but
don't quote me!--well.....make that a definite Maybe! LOL)
Jill
Shelagh is indeed in Toronto, but doesn't have e-mail according tot he
latest membership list. I was speaking to her just a hour ago - a pity
that I didn't read my e-amil first!
I suggest that you contact the Newsletter editor, Richard Miller, at
<rmiller@...>
Yehuda
In a message dated 2/23/0 12:29:10 PM, dkmaurer1@... writes:
<<From: dkmaurer1@...
Hello Friends,
Laura Sims has asked me to collect your ideas and suggestions for topics and
demonstrators for the International Marbler's Gathering 2002. The mission
statement is : A symposium covering the historical past and traditional uses
of marbling, as well as the contemporary expansion of the marbling field. If
you'd like to be on the official mailing list, please send your snail mail
addresses and I'll forward them on to her as well.
Also, Simrat contacted me about the possibility of having the videotape of
the 1992 San Francisco gallery show copied so that you could mail it to each
other round-robin. I'll attempt to get it copied (barring any copyright
laws) this week. I'll mail it to him first and he'll organize the list of
interested people. Expect to hear from him soon!
Regards, Diane Maurer>>
Diane,
So glad you are on this list....
Would you put me on the mailing list please...
Trish Rodgers
2710 Yellowstone Street
Wichita, KS 67215-1542
Also, I'm interested in the video...
Do you ever use metallics when you marble? I took a class from Galen this
past summer and I'm really into it. I was going to take a class from Peggy in
Dallas, but it was full, also think it was meant to be...Anyway, do you know
if you can still get back issues of the marbling newsletter, have forgotten
the name...I'll be moving to NM this spring so I'm wondering if you know of
any classes in that area? My biggest problem is finding paper that will
work...Thanks for any info you care to share.
BTW, I have all your books, and really enjoy them...
Thank you, Trish Rodgers
>From: dkmaurer1@...
>
<snip>
>Also, Simrat contacted me about the possibility of having the videotape of
>the 1992 San Francisco gallery show copied so that you could mail it to each
>other round-robin. I'll attempt to get it copied (barring any copyright
>laws) this week. I'll mail it to him first and he'll organize the list of
>interested people. Expect to hear from him soon!
>
>Regards, Diane Maurer
>
I guess an introduction is in order. I took a one day workshop with Galen
at Mt. Angel Abbey last year and was captivated with marbling. I have since
had a tray made and collected my tools, though I have not yet found a
source of paper that has worked for me locally short of expensive art
papers. I am still checking local print shops.
For now, my time is taken up by completing my BS and possibly BFA in
painting and remodelling my garage for my studio. The university here also
has a nice letterpress lab which I have enjoyed working in. That was one of
my entries into book arts and marbling.
Anyone interested in viewing the tape mentioned above can send me their
snail mail address and I will compile a list. We can then send it along to
eachother. The last person on the list can send it back to Diane.
Simrat
BTW, I am a woman. :-)
Simrat Kaur Khalsa
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
simrat@...
> Trish Rodgers wrote:
Anyway, do you know
> if you can still get back issues of the marbling newsletter, have forgotten
> the name...
I don't know if it is still the case, but John Neal Booksellers in Greensboro
North Carolina had a few old copies of Ink & Gall left. Perhaps also Dawson's
book shop in Los Angeles.
http://www.johnnealbooks.com/http://www.dawsonbooks.com/
Dawson's, of course, has the "mother load" of books and ephemera about marbling.
Jake Benson
In a message dated 2/25/0 5:39:12 PM, jemiljan@... writes:
<<
Anyway, do you know
> if you can still get back issues of the marbling newsletter, have forgotten
> the name...
I don't know if it is still the case, but John Neal Booksellers in Greensboro
North Carolina had a few old copies of Ink & Gall left. Perhaps also Dawson's
book shop in Los Angeles.
http://www.johnnealbooks.com/http://www.dawsonbooks.com/
Dawson's, of course, has the "mother load" of books and ephemera about
marbling.
Jake Benson
>>
Jake,
Thanks for the info, I'll try both.
Trish
Send Email
