Debbie,

There are a number of resources out there that you can turn too.  For starters,
if you
haven't found it already, Peter Verheyen's excellent web site:

www.philobiblon.com

There is a list of professional training opportunities, organizations, and book
art centers

The Guild of Book Workers offers a list of training opportunities:

http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byorg/gbw/

Small schools such as Arrowmont, the site of our last symposium, offer short
courses:

http://www.arrowmont.org/

Where are you located?  It would help to better advise you on what you have
close by.  teh
scope of the centers can be learned by searching the web sites, but also by
participating in
the many internet lists.

When you ask "what is the best" I must confess that it is a difficult question
to respond to,
simply because each venue has their merits and different emphasis, and different
teachers.

Are speaking of Artists books?  Fine press?  fine binding? traditional hand
binding?  Those
are very different things.  It really depends on what you want to do, and you've
not
mentioned what that is.   Even within those categories, there is likely to be
some pretty
subjective arguments over what is "best".

For example, some of the more outspoken "masters" of English, French, and German
binding, all think they are the "best", and will tell you what makes them
"superior" to the
other traditions and belittle the others.  For my own part, I learn as much as I
can, yet take
it all with a VERY LARGE grain of salt, as I appreciate fine craftsmanship and
artistry, but
little use for snotty,  pretentious attitudes.  The same thing can be very true
of marbling,
though I think on the whole we are a far more amicable lot...

Most of the MFA programs also host workshops.  This year, there seems to be a
veritable
explosion of conferences and events across the US.  Here at USC in Columbia, we
are
hosting the first conference ever.  I'm an alum of the Noth Bennet Street School
bookbinding program, which is more traditional in approach, and not is an or MFA
program.  They offer a number of workshops in hand bookbinding, and have just
released
the summer workshop listing:

www.nbss.org

As far as "standards" that can be a hot-button issue, depending on who you ask.
Standards for what?  The Guild of Book Workers hosts an annual Seminar in the
Standards
of Excellence" to help promote the art and craft in the US.  Yet as far as
creating
standardized bookbinding certfiication, there isn't any, dpesite some who feel
very
strongly that there should be.  Again, which "standards" do we use?  German,
French,
English, or even Turkish or Japanese?  They all have standards, which in their
own context
are quite valid.

hope this helps,

Jake Benson







--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "lovetomakebooks" <jazzcatsclifton@c...> wrote:
> I am looking for the major books arts centers, mostly in the United
> States.  Would the Center for Book Arts in Chicago be among the best?
> Are there other Centers that people feel would be worth checking out?
> I am looking for Centers that go beyond offering degrees to students
> seeking advanced degrees.  I'm not even sure what the scope of centers
> generally is or if there is any standard.  Thanks in advance for your
> thoughts.
> Debbie

hello,  my name is tomas DĄquin  I have beenoil marbling for fifty yars,
but only in the past fifteen have i tyried to do ny thing special.  I do not
marble large3 sheets  as the paints dry to fast on the water to make ny
intricate designs.  I do both primiytive figures and (fancy) designs.
      for many years i used enamels as my base paints;  five or six years ggo
i swy”itched to printing inks.  check out my website for more details.
   www.oilonwater.com
              tomas


>From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
>Reply-To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
>To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Marbling] Digest Number 925
>Date: 29 Apr 2005 11:08:06 -0000
>
>
>There are 5 messages in this issue.
>
>Topics in this digest:
>
>       1. query about drying agents
>            From: Ellen Tresselt <ntresselt@...>
>       2. Re: query about drying agents
>            From: "Guffey" <dguff@...>
>       3. Re: query about drying agents
>            From: paulhenrydesign@...
>       4. Two Persian marbled penboxes up for sale at Christies TOMORROW
>            From: "Jake Benson" <handbindery@...>
>       5. Image of Persian mirror cover from the Museum of Tehran
>            From: "Jake Benson" <handbindery@...>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 1
>    Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:03:17 -0400
>    From: Ellen Tresselt <ntresselt@...>
>Subject: query about drying agents
>
>Hello Everyone -- This is just a general query regarding drying agents
>in oil color marbling.  I am going to try some oil marbling -- no, I do
>not have Dianne Maurer's book, or anyone else's for that matter, but
>all I'm really looking for is to know what people might be using to
>accelerate drying of oil marbled sheets.  Thanks!  Nelle Tresselt
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 2
>    Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 10:04:49 -0700
>    From: "Guffey" <dguff@...>
>Subject: Re: query about drying agents
>
>Ellen,
>
>The only advantage to oil marbling (as opposed to acrylic or water based
>paints) is that you do not have to alum your pages.  I haven't used oils
>for 20 years, once I changed to acrylics, but I do have some memories to
>contribute.  Red is the slowest drying of all the pigments.  I purchased
>some Japan Dry from an art store which I added to the paint.  I helped some
>as I recall.  If you stay away from reds you shouldn't have any trouble
>with the colors drying on your papers.
>
>Oil marbling will have a much more "fuzzy" feel to it... the lines will not
>be as sharp as with traditional marbling inks/paints.  I always used paint
>thinner (rather than turpentine) to dilute the oil paints.  It is a very
>messy to do and clean up, plus the odor.  Another consideration in using
>oil paints is that the colors permanent the papers, sometimes bleeding
>through to the other side.  Acrylics and water based colors adhere to the
>alumed surface and do not bleed through.
>
>Hope this helps,
>
>d. guffey
>
>----- Original Message -----
>   From: Ellen Tresselt
>   To: Marbling
>   Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 9:03 AM
>   Subject: [Marbling] query about drying agents
>
>
>   Hello Everyone -- This is just a general query regarding drying agents
>   in oil color marbling.  I am going to try some oil marbling -- no, I do
>   not have Dianne Maurer's book, or anyone else's for that matter, but
>   all I'm really looking for is to know what people might be using to
>   accelerate drying of oil marbled sheets.  Thanks!  Nelle Tresselt
>
>
>
>
>
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 3
>    Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:55:28 EDT
>    From: paulhenrydesign@...
>Subject: Re: query about drying agents
>
>a drop of "terebrine" thinners can work well, not sure what trade it might
>go
>under in the states. Oil marbling produces different effects,which is why I
>work with both oil and water based colours, admitted they do smell more
>than
>the water based colours, but really they don;t take much longer to clean
>up! I
>always use a thinners instead of turpentine, it's nt as greasy and a lot
>cheaper as well!
>
>paul
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 4
>    Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 01:31:19 -0000
>    From: "Jake Benson" <handbindery@...>
>Subject: Two Persian marbled penboxes up for sale at Christies TOMORROW
>
>Hello everyone,
>
>Does anyone have a few thousand dollars to spare?
>
>I have just found out that two marbled and lacquered boxes will be sold
>TOMORROW at
>auction at Christies South Kensington location.  The sale is for Indian and
>Islamic Works of
>art, sale number 5560, item numbers 473 and 474.  The images are terrible,
>but I can
>assure you that it is what it says.
>
>Both examples are signed and dated by the artists.  Other examples of these
>masters work
>have been published.  The citations to both the publications are provied.
>The catalog
>"Lacquer of the Islamic lands" from the Nasser Khalili collection has
>FABULOUS images of
>delicately marbled penboxes.
>
><http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/search/LotDetail.asp?
>sid=&intObjectID=4490575&SE=CMWCAT03+1409449+%2D146727046+&QR=M+1+2+
>Aqc0000900+1363675++Aqc0000900+&entry=marbled&T=Lot&P=&SR=All&MF=&DF=&
>MT=&DT=&SU=1&ST=&RQ=False&AN=3>
>
>  <http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/search/LotDetail.asp?
>sid=&intObjectID=4490576&SE=CMWCAT03+1409449+%2D146727046+&QR=M+1+1+
>Aqc0000900+1363675++Aqc0000900+&entry=marbled&T=Lot&P=&SR=All&MF=&DF=&
>MT=&DT=&SU=1&ST=&RQ=False&AN=2>
>
>The subject of marbling in Iran has been sorely neglected in most marbling
>literature,
>though it is often in English language books that marbling was invented in
>Persia, though
>that can't be said for certain.  The oldest Islamic marbling dates to
>Cenrtal Asia, but then
>seems to die out by the 17th century, with the downfall of the Shaybanid
>Uzbek dynasty.
>
>It is also interesting to note that the term used to day in Iran is
>abr-o-bad, which means
>"Cloud and wind' in Persian.  Abu Talib is credited with the invention of
>this new style,
>though I personally wonder if this can really be confirmed, as there is a
>text from India
>that seems to desribe a similar procedure.
>
>  The term "abr-o bad" or "abru bad" is derived from a poem by the famous
>Shirazi poet
>Sadi, well before any marbling we know of from the region.  So it was
>likely just a poetic
>reference, nothing more.  Nevertheless, it offers a compelling new possible
>angle on the
>possible origin of the word "ebru' used in Turkey today.  Is it a shortened
>form of "abru-
>bad", pronounced in a Turkish accent as a "ebru"?
>
>Older texts in Persian and Turkish all use the word abri, or ebri, not
>ebru, and they are
>spelled differently in arabic script, as ebri ends with the letter ya
>(which the late Dr.
>Annemarie Shimmel translated as "clouded" or "cloudy", used to describe the
>paper- so
>"clouded paper").  yet the words abru and ebru end with the letter vav, and
>literally would
>mean "cloud and..." dropping the word "bad" , meaning "air" or "wind".  The
>earliest use of
>the term of "ebru" in refernce to marbling in Ottoman Turkish is in the
>Ottoman dictionary
>by Redhouse, from the turn of the 19th-20th century.  If anyone knows
>another earlier
>source, please tell me where it has been published, as I have been looking
>for a long
>time...
>
>So is it possible that there is a connection between marbling in Iran in
>the 19th century
>and the tradition of the Uzbeler tekke in Istanbul?  Many have claimed that
>the tradition
>was derived from Naqshibandi Sufis in Bukhara, but this has never been
>confirmed, and
>very little evidence of marbling there at such a late date has yet to be
>found (much any
>less Naqshibandi sufi making such papers, despite it being a very popular
>notion).
>
>Who knows? the evidence may be there, lurking, waiting to be found on a
>dusty library
>shelf.  People simply have to take a little bit of time to look for it.
>Ironically, I posted a link
>a few months ago to a mirror-case in the National Museum of Iran, but the
>web site has
>now unfortunately vanished.  So catch the sights while you can!
>
>So many points to ponder over!  I wonder what we'll find next month...
>
>enjoy!
>
>Jake Benson
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 5
>    Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 02:29:04 -0000
>    From: "Jake Benson" <handbindery@...>
>Subject: Image of Persian mirror cover from the Museum of Tehran
>
>Hello again,
>
>I mentioned  in my last post a marbled mirror cover that had been on the
>web site for the
>National Museum of Iran in Tehran that has since disappeared.  Since I had
>the image, I
>have now placed it in the the photo section of the group web site.
>
><http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/marbling/lst?&.dir=/
>Images+of+historic+marbling/Iran&.src=gr&.view=t&.url=http%3a//us.f1.yahoofs.co\
m/
>groups/g_412943/Images%2bof%2bhistoric%2bmarbling/Iran/
>Marbled%252blacquered%2bMirror%2bcase.jpg%3fbc8k5bxBPjYZvY0J&.cx=150&.cy=112&.
>type=u>
>
>While I was at it, I went ahead and created a new folder for images of
>historic marbling,
>and have created sub-folders inside for a few different countries.  It's
>just a start, and
>more folders can be added as pieces are found.  I encourage any and all of
>you, as you
>find images of historic examples, to post them there.
>
>We are responsible for recognizing and documenting the history of our art.
>No one else
>will do it for us.  We are familiar with marbling and can readily identify
>examples far more
>easily than others.  In doing so, we help to educate ourselves and the
>public in general
>about marbling.  Hopefully, it increses an interest in it, and it certainly
>does have a very
>fascinating history that is not well understood, even by ourselves.
>
>Educating the public also means that we are educating our potential market.
>  Showing
>such examples in workshops, classes, and lectures informs people about
>marbling as
>something desirable and valuable, and that in turn encourages collection.
>So PLEASE don't
>dismiss this is just a dry topic for long-winded scholars, curators, and
>academics.  There's
>actually some very real economic incentives to spend a few minutes
>researching
>collections at a local library or museum.  Many Curators often really
>appreciate the help of
>a "genuine marbler" to idnetify examples in their collection.  So don't be
>shy.  All you have
>to do is ask to spend a few minutes.  Not only libraries have these
>materials, for now we
>know that scientific instruments, wallpapers, mats and mounts, clothing and
>accessories,
>musical instrument cases, and even furniture have emplyed marbling in
>different countries
>in the past.   We all make mistakes in our identifications along the way of
>course, as we
>are only human, but at least we have done our part to get the "marble"
>rollling.  Who
>knows what lies in the stacks, gathering dust, waiting to be discovered?
>
>Personally, I'm constantly amazed when "new" finds of old pieces emerge.
>Unusual
>patterns, unique designs, and even unknown floral motifs have been found in
>recent years.
>When such examples come to light, it challenges us to re-think the many
>pre-conceived
>notions that we have held about marbling history.  Marbling history is an
>continually
>evolving subject, and very little seems to be "set in stone", to make
>another bad pun...
>
>So, Happy hunting!
>
>Jake
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>

DO NOT USE YOUR EMAIL REPLY FUNCTION TO RESPOND TO THIS ANNOUNCEMENT.
PLEASE RESPOND TO orders@...



Thank you to all who came to the New York Book Fair last weekend. It was
great to see you and we appreciate your business. The featured items
included: Incunabula, Leaf Books, rare books on Typography, Papermaking and
Marbling, as well as Fine Press Books.



For those of you who weren't at the Fair or who would like another chance to
look at what we exhibited, we have created a special after-the-fair
catalogue. Just click the link below to browse and shop.





<http://oakknoll.com/results.php?s_Catnr=921
<http://oakknoll.com/results.php?s_Catnr=921&s_ShowPics=1> &s_ShowPics=1>





Best wishes,

Your Oak Knollers









Oak Knoll Books
310 Delaware Street New Castle DE 19720
P: 302.328.7232 - F: 302.328.7274 - E: oakknoll@... web
<http://www.oakknoll.com/> http://www.oakknoll.com/
Member Antiquarian Bookseller's Association of America (ABAA)
<http://www.abaa.org/> http://www.abaa.org/
International League of Antiquarian Booksellers (ILAB)
<http://www.ilab-lila.com/> http://www.ilab-lila.com/
Buy with confidence of consumer protection when you buy from an ILAB
bookseller





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Does anyone recommend an inexpensive, yet effective acrylic paint that
would be suitable & cost-effective for teens in a young person's art
camp?  I use Golden, but I feel the cost would be prohibitive.  The
class will be marbling both paper & cloth.  I don't want to sacrifice
cost for a good marbling experience.  Thanks for any input!  Pat

I have had success with Liquitex BASICS series acrylic paints mixed with
water and several drops of Ox Gall dropped on carrageenan. Some colors spread
more
than others and some had sinking issues which took some effort to acheive the
right mix of paint, water, and ox gall. But at $1.96 a tube It was worth the
hastle! I am new to the whole marbling process and have much to learn.   But
like you I wanted to find a cheaper alternative for the elementary level.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

When my husband and I were teaching ourselves marbling, we did not want to
invest a lot of money buying paints, so we went to our local Ben Franklin
store and bought Ceramcoat brand.  They actually worked quite well for us -
and they cost approx. $1 per bottle - and go on sale for less than that.

The paper and wood items that we marbled using the Ceramcoat are still
holding their color well - however, we have never given them a serious
"lightfast" test.

We now use Golden - but I have had no complaints with the Ceramcoat.

Hope this helps - Mary-Celine Thouin (Stubbs)

> From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
> Reply-To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
> Date: 6 May 2005 11:02:56 -0000
> To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Marbling] Digest Number 929
>
>
> There are 3 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. New York
> From: "Oak Knoll" <oakknoll@...>
> 2. Acrylics for teens' class
> From: "Pat K. Thomas" <pktlivingstones@...>
> 3. Re: Acrylics for teens' class
> From: navinh99@...
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 16:03:37 -0400
> From: "Oak Knoll" <oakknoll@...>
> Subject: New York
>
> DO NOT USE YOUR EMAIL REPLY FUNCTION TO RESPOND TO THIS ANNOUNCEMENT.
> PLEASE RESPOND TO orders@...
>
>
>
> Thank you to all who came to the New York Book Fair last weekend. It was
> great to see you and we appreciate your business. The featured items
> included: Incunabula, Leaf Books, rare books on Typography, Papermaking and
> Marbling, as well as Fine Press Books.
>
>
>
> For those of you who weren't at the Fair or who would like another chance to
> look at what we exhibited, we have created a special after-the-fair
> catalogue. Just click the link below to browse and shop.
>
>
>
>
>
> <http://oakknoll.com/results.php?s_Catnr=921
> <http://oakknoll.com/results.php?s_Catnr=921&s_ShowPics=1> &s_ShowPics=1>
>
>
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Your Oak Knollers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Oak Knoll Books
> 310 Delaware Street New Castle DE 19720
> P: 302.328.7232 - F: 302.328.7274 - E: oakknoll@... web
> <http://www.oakknoll.com/> http://www.oakknoll.com/
> Member Antiquarian Bookseller's Association of America (ABAA)
> <http://www.abaa.org/> http://www.abaa.org/
> International League of Antiquarian Booksellers (ILAB)
> <http://www.ilab-lila.com/> http://www.ilab-lila.com/
> Buy with confidence of consumer protection when you buy from an ILAB
> bookseller
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 23:06:36 -0000
> From: "Pat K. Thomas" <pktlivingstones@...>
> Subject: Acrylics for teens' class
>
> Does anyone recommend an inexpensive, yet effective acrylic paint that
> would be suitable & cost-effective for teens in a young person's art
> camp?  I use Golden, but I feel the cost would be prohibitive.  The
> class will be marbling both paper & cloth.  I don't want to sacrifice
> cost for a good marbling experience.  Thanks for any input!  Pat
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 20:03:01 EDT
> From: navinh99@...
> Subject: Re: Acrylics for teens' class
>
> I have had success with Liquitex BASICS series acrylic paints mixed with
> water and several drops of Ox Gall dropped on carrageenan. Some colors spread
> more
> than others and some had sinking issues which took some effort to acheive the
> right mix of paint, water, and ox gall. But at $1.96 a tube It was worth the
> hastle! I am new to the whole marbling process and have much to learn.   But
> like you I wanted to find a cheaper alternative for the elementary level.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

Hi, All,
I, too, am teaching a teen class next week, and have chosen to get a set of
marbling paints from Pro-Chemical (NAYY - www.prochemical.com).  They are
acrylics, come in about 20 colors, all mixable, already have the surfactant and
fabric medium in them, and are in 2 ounce (or larger) ready-to-use squirt
bottles.  A 2 ounce bottle is about $1.89, plus, of course, s/h.

I use Goldens also, but have been known to supplement with Liquitex or
Createx when I can't get a color I want.

I, in turn, would appreciate suggestions for an inexpensive paper for them to
use - thinking like a good sketch paper that comes in a pad.  I have been
testing several, but a lot of them either curl unmercifully, or really cockle!

TIA!
Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis

For elementary level I have been using acid free white construction paper. I
get a pack of 50 sheets $1.99 from Michaels. It does curl a bit but I just
iron it flat after its been rinsed and dried. I also like to use the large pads
of Strathmore acid free drawing paper pads.
-Lorrie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If you are fortunate enough to live near a large urban area that has a printing
facility that uses a web offset press (that is the type that uses a large
continuous roll of paper) they generally will give away the end rolls (paper
left of the roll that has to be stopped before emptying onto the press).  It is
generally good quality paper (not newsprint...stay away from that) and you can
cut off the length of sheets you need.  I picked up one in San Francisco over 10
years ago and am still using it for experimental practice marbling!  Be
forewarned, depending on the width and type of paper, these end rolls can be
quite heavy.

Good luck.

d. guffey
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: carylhanc@...
   To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 12:03 PM
   Subject: Re: [Marbling]paints and papers


   Hi, All,
   I, too, am teaching a teen class next week, and have chosen to get a set of
   marbling paints from Pro-Chemical (NAYY - www.prochemical.com).  They are
   acrylics, come in about 20 colors, all mixable, already have the surfactant
and
   fabric medium in them, and are in 2 ounce (or larger) ready-to-use squirt
   bottles.  A 2 ounce bottle is about $1.89, plus, of course, s/h.

   I use Goldens also, but have been known to supplement with Liquitex or
   Createx when I can't get a color I want.

   I, in turn, would appreciate suggestions for an inexpensive paper for them to
   use - thinking like a good sketch paper that comes in a pad.  I have been
   testing several, but a lot of them either curl unmercifully, or really cockle!

   TIA!
   Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis




   Yahoo! Groups Links









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello everyone,

I have a number of brushes for making suminagashi which I purchased
from Colophon some time ago.  However , Someone recently asked me, and
hence I wonder, if anyone has used the Asian-style bamboo handle
brushes now made by Loew-Cornell as well as Windsor and Newton.   These
are now available from many arts and crafts supply stores these days
such as Michael's and Pearl.  LC makes 3 sizes, while WN makes 5.  They
say they are natural hair, but I do wonder if they work well for this
purpose or not.

Don Guyot had explained to me quite a while ago about how the better,
more expensive brushes from Boku Undo that he sold were made from a
combination of hairs.  Looking at mine, I think it may be a wolf hair
on the outside, and something soft and white inside- maybe goat?  Years
ago I bought some very cheap Chinese brushes which I think are all goat
hair- all white hair, and very soft.  They don't work well at all, as
they don't keep a point.  I used them only for the water with
sumifactant, but never for applying ink...

Any hints or insight is highly appreciated!

Jake Benson

Hi Everyone!

Thanks you for accepting me into this great group. I make hand made
paper and hand bound books, cards, embellishments for these. I am
interested to learn marbling and that is why I joined this group. I am
in awe of the photos. I have never tried marbling up to now because I
just recently learned about it's very existance. So that said I will
lurk and read for a while. If anyone has some beginners suggestion
please let me know, I would really appreciate it.

Thanks
Magda

Hello! I'm another new member. Magda's introduction spurred me on to
do the same.

My name is Kris and I'm a paperholic.  :-)  I love beautiful paper
and love to create lovely things with it. I make paper and make
notebook holders and Post-it holders. I remember doing some marbling
way back when in high school (I'm 52!) but it was with oil-based inks
on regular water. I'd never done the more traditional, more
controlled marbling with the carageenan and all of that.

Then last November I was invited to a women's art party, and one of
the work stations was set up for marbling. What fun! I was hooked! I
immediately started dropping hints for Christmas - marbling supplies,
please! My daughter Rachel came through with a starter kit and
additional combs and rakes from Galen Berry.

I'm just starting out and am looking forward to learning so much from
this group! I've posted photos of a post-it holder I made from one of
my first sheets. It's under Photos, Kris Y. I'll post more as I
improve. With your help I'm sure I will!

Best,
Kris Y in Vancouver, WA

Magda, and all other novices -

1) Read all the back messages, starting with number one.
2) Find a master(!) willing to teach. Beware of the enthusiast who blithely
starts teaching
on the grounds of his or her own beginner's success. Have a book recommended.
3) Prepare for years of trial and error, of success and draw-backs, of loving
your work and
being totally without courage. Be inquisitive, pig headed, dedicated. Get used
to the idea
that virtually nothing can be achieved quickly.

Most of points two and three apply to everyone engaged in making decorated
paper, of
course.

Susanne Krause


--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "mici_ke" <mici_ke@y...> wrote:
> Hi Everyone!
>
> Thanks you for accepting me into this great group. I make hand made
> paper and hand bound books, cards, embellishments for these. I am
> interested to learn marbling and that is why I joined this group. I am
> in awe of the photos. I have never tried marbling up to now because I
> just recently learned about it's very existance. So that said I will
> lurk and read for a while. If anyone has some beginners suggestion
> please let me know, I would really appreciate it.
>
> Thanks
> Magda

you have to love it, that's all, or else you won't have the patience to carry
you through the problem solving that always arises. I have been marbling 27
years and still have "those days". I would need another lifetime to master the
process! And that might not be enough time!

iris nevins
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...>
   To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
   Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 4:25 AM
   Subject: [Marbling] Re: new member intro


   Magda, and all other novices -

   1) Read all the back messages, starting with number one.
   2) Find a master(!) willing to teach. Beware of the enthusiast who blithely
starts teaching
   on the grounds of his or her own beginner's success. Have a book recommended.
   3) Prepare for years of trial and error, of success and draw-backs, of loving
your work and
   being totally without courage. Be inquisitive, pig headed, dedicated. Get used
to the idea
   that virtually nothing can be achieved quickly.

   Most of points two and three apply to everyone engaged in making decorated
paper, of
   course.

   Susanne Krause


   --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "mici_ke"
<mici_ke@y<mailto:mici_ke@y>...> wrote:
   > Hi Everyone!
   >
   > Thanks you for accepting me into this great group. I make hand made
   > paper and hand bound books, cards, embellishments for these. I am
   > interested to learn marbling and that is why I joined this group. I am
   > in awe of the photos. I have never tried marbling up to now because I
   > just recently learned about it's very existance. So that said I will
   > lurk and read for a while. If anyone has some beginners suggestion
   > please let me know, I would really appreciate it.
   >
   > Thanks
   > Magda






   Yahoo! Groups Links








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi
i am a new member. I am from turkey, marbling is our traditional art and i am
interested in marbling for two years. if any body have any question about
traditional way of doing marbling i will try to reply his/her question.
have a nice day




---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My first few attempts at marbling have been met with some frustration
and a few successes. My biggest problem has been that my paint spreads
over the whole surface of the bath. Is my size too thin? I think I am
using the wrong kind of paint also because my prints are so faded. I
am looking for bold crisp prints. I am working with Liquitex acrylics.
It doesn't matter if I use ox gall with them or not they behave the
same way. Some colors are worse than others. I am marbling on
Carrageenan. Also does Carrageenan size go bad over time?

The e-mail below asks for help leaning how to marble for beginners.  When I
first started marbling nearly 30 years ago, there were NO "how-to" books.  One
learned from someone else, who had learned from someone else.  The lady I took a
class from had taken a class from Annette Hollander.  The marblers of old (18th
& 19th centuries) did not share their techniques, some going to the grave
without revealing how they made a particular pattern.  If fact, when they set up
shops and had apprentices to do all the grunt work (aluming papers, mixing
pigments, etc) they were curtained off from each other so that no one saw the
full process.  Only the marbler himself knew all the steps.

Today there are a number of "how-to" books, but all the reading in the world
won't substitute from taking a class from an accomplished marbler.  Galen Berry
and Diane Maurer both offer classes (look for them on the internet).  Also, I
just went on Google and put in "Experience the Magic of Marbling" which is an
excellent video produced by Mimi & Patty Schleicher.  It was made in 1994, but
it looks like it is still available.  Here you will actually see all the steps
needed to marble..

Another valuable book is "The Ultimate Marbling Handbook" by Diane Maurer. 
Check out her website
www.dianemaurer.com

Please be forewarned.  You will not achieve these results the first time you
marble.  These are the experts, with years of practice and experience behind
them.  One of the hardest parts of marbling is knowing what to do when things
don't go right (color sinks, color washes off the paper, colors chase each
other).  Marbling is NOT an exact science, it is all about experimenting.  What
works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another.  I don't mean to
sound discouraging, but you need to be realistic.  Marbling is a wonderful
art...you can learn about the process in a day, it will take you years to
perfect it.

Please do not be discouraged with early attempts.  Go to your local library and
look for "how-to" books, and if they don't have them, ask if you can get them
from inter-library loans.  The information is out there.

Happy Marbling

d. guffey
dguff@...

----- Original Message -----
   From: mici_ke
   To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 12:33 PM
   Subject: [Marbling] new member intro


   Hi Everyone!

   Thanks you for accepting me into this great group. I make hand made
   paper and hand bound books, cards, embellishments for these. I am
   interested to learn marbling and that is why I joined this group. I am
   in awe of the photos. I have never tried marbling up to now because I
   just recently learned about it's very existance. So that said I will
   lurk and read for a while. If anyone has some beginners suggestion
   please let me know, I would really appreciate it.

   Thanks
   Magda




   ------------------------


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The e-mail below asks for help leaning how to marble for beginners.  When I
first started marbling nearly 30 years ago, there were NO "how-to" books.  One
learned from someone else, who had learned from someone else.  The lady I took a
class from had taken a class from Annette Hollander.  The marblers of old (18th
& 19th centuries) did not share their techniques, some going to the grave
without revealing how they made a particular pattern.  If fact, when they set up
shops and had apprentices to do all the grunt work (aluming papers, mixing
pigments, etc) they were curtained off from each other so that no one saw the
full process.  Only the marbler himself knew all the steps.

Today there are a number of "how-to" books, but all the reading in the world
won't substitute from taking a class from an accomplished marbler.  Galen Berry
and Diane Maurer both offer classes (look for them on the internet).  Also, I
just went on Google and put in "Experience the Magic of Marbling" which is an
excellent video produced by Mimi & Patty Schleicher.  It was made in 1994, but
it looks like it is still available.  Here you will actually see all the steps
needed to marble..

Another valuable book is "The Ultimate Marbling Handbook" by Diane Maurer. 
Check out her website
www.dianemaurer.com

Please be forewarned.  You will not achieve these results the first time you
marble.  These are the experts, with years of practice and experience behind
them.  One of the hardest parts of marbling is knowing what to do when things
don't go right (color sinks, color washes off the paper, colors chase each
other).  Marbling is NOT an exact science, it is all about experimenting.  What
works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another.  I don't mean to
sound discouraging, but you need to be realistic.  Marbling is a wonderful
art...you can learn about the process in a day, it will take you years to
perfect it.

Please do not be discouraged with early attempts.  Go to your local library and
look for "how-to" books, and if they don't have them, ask if you can get them
from inter-library loans.  The information is out there.

Happy Marbling

d. guffey
dguff@...

----- Original Message -----
   From: mici_ke
   To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 12:33 PM
   Subject: [Marbling] new member intro


   Hi Everyone!

   Thanks you for accepting me into this great group. I make hand made
   paper and hand bound books, cards, embellishments for these. I am
   interested to learn marbling and that is why I joined this group. I am
   in awe of the photos. I have never tried marbling up to now because I
   just recently learned about it's very existance. So that said I will
   lurk and read for a while. If anyone has some beginners suggestion
   please let me know, I would really appreciate it.

   Thanks
   Magda




   ------------------------


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I also still have copies of my video ³Marbling Made Easy² by Gail MacKenzie
available.  It also includes a pamphlet entitled ³Everything That Can
Possibly Go Wrong² with suggestions for solutions.  It¹s on sale for $15
plus book rate shipping.

Gail MacKenzie
POBox 218
Leggett, CA 95585
1-800-644-6345

gailmackenzi@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Welcome to our new members!   It would be great if you could give us a hint
of where on this planet you reside.   Perhaps there is a list member nearby
that could connect with you....
Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Guffey <dguff@...> wrote:
Hi Guffey and everyone else who answered,

Thanks for taking the time. I found your letter very
interesting Guffey:-) I believe most of what you wrote
about marbling applies to all the other arts as well.
The first most important prerequisite in any art is
the love for it the deep passion for it and art since
it is a creative endevour is never ending when it
comes to newness and experimenting:-)
My first interest is paper making and ofcourse paper
is the first in line for many arts.
I will look for the books you have suggested and I
have been looking around for the video on marbling and
found it before I joined this group.

I live in Montreal, Quebec so if there is anyone else
on board from here or if anyone has knowledge of
classes in Montreal please let me know.

Thanks
Magda



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Note: forwarded message attached.


---------------------------------
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  Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Magda - if you are in Canada, try to find help from the cbbag, that is the
association of
Canadian bookbinders. From what I hear, they are interested and 'approachable'.
They
have a website.

Susanne Krause

--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Magda Foldi <mici_ke@y...> wrote:
>
> --- Guffey <dguff@h...> wrote:
> Hi Guffey and everyone else who answered,
>
> Thanks for taking the time. I found your letter very
> interesting Guffey:-) I believe most of what you wrote
> about marbling applies to all the other arts as well.
> The first most important prerequisite in any art is
> the love for it the deep passion for it and art since
> it is a creative endevour is never ending when it
> comes to newness and experimenting:-)
> My first interest is paper making and ofcourse paper
> is the first in line for many arts.
> I will look for the books you have suggested and I
> have been looking around for the video on marbling and
> found it before I joined this group.
>
> I live in Montreal, Quebec so if there is anyone else
> on board from here or if anyone has knowledge of
> classes in Montreal please let me know.
>
> Thanks
> Magda
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Yahoo! Mail Mobile
> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail

Hi Suzanne,

Thank you for your suggestion, I was actually a member
of the CBBAG and am doing the home study course of
bookbinding. I did not pay my dues this year for
financial reasons, I had a lot of unexpected expenses
come up, however I will send in my membership fee
because they are a huge resource of information on
book and paper arts. They are situated in Toronto and
I was hoping to find something here in Montreal as far
as a real live demonstration goes. We have a great
place that is called Papier au Japonais. It is a small
store that sells Japanese papers, but the great thing
about them is that they offer a variety of paper
related courses. So I will inquire with them and if
they do not offer marbling maybe it is a good time to
suggest it to them to find a teacher:-)

Once again thanks
Magda
--- hamburgerbuntpapier_de
<hamburgerbuntpapier@...> wrote:
> Magda - if you are in Canada, try to find help from
> the cbbag, that is the association of
> Canadian bookbinders. From what I hear, they are
> interested and 'approachable'. They
> have a website.
>
> Susanne Krause




Yahoo! Mail
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http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lucie Lapierre is close to Montreal-and is on this list-and as far as I
know-will or can or probably is teaching...............Lucie? You OUT here?

Jill
Ottawa

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Magda Foldi
   To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 3:11 PM
   Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: How to Learn to Marble


   Hi Suzanne,

   Thank you for your suggestion, I was actually a member
   of the CBBAG and am doing the home study course of
   bookbinding. I did not pay my dues this year for
   financial reasons, I had a lot of unexpected expenses
   come up, however I will send in my membership fee
   because they are a huge resource of information on
   book and paper arts. They are situated in Toronto and
   I was hoping to find something here in Montreal as far
   as a real live demonstration goes. We have a great
   place that is called Papier au Japonais. It is a small
   store that sells Japanese papers, but the great thing
   about them is that they offer a variety of paper
   related courses. So I will inquire with them and if
   they do not offer marbling maybe it is a good time to
   suggest it to them to find a teacher:-)

   Once again thanks
   Magda
   --- hamburgerbuntpapier_de
   <hamburgerbuntpapier@...> wrote:
   > Magda - if you are in Canada, try to find help from
   > the cbbag, that is the association of
   > Canadian bookbinders. From what I hear, they are
   > interested and 'approachable'. They
   > have a website.
   >
   > Susanne Krause




   Yahoo! Mail
   Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
   http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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     Marbling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Everyone, Well I somewhat mastered fabric marbling, but I've been doing
some paper (as you know Iris !). So I ask you paper marbler's ,do you slide your
paper off the edge of the vat to squeegee" off the size? or are you just lifting
and gently rinsing, till size is off? I've gotten some smearing when rinsing off
the  size from the paper. I don't want to rinse to much which smears the 
paint,but I feel its still slippery. Does it matter if there's alittle size left
on? Its trial and error here ...I don't want to spoil to many papers.Any
thoughts are appreciated  Thanks Gretchen



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

when I use my own watercolor paints I hang them right up, you just have to get a
feel for what the right amount of paint is. If you want/need to rinse I lay them
on a slanted board in a big sink and you can just gently pour water over them.
Also most American made papers nowadays don't hold the paints as well if at all.

iris nevins
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: gretchen vansant<mailto:fine_artist2002@...>
   To: marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:marbling@yahoogroups.com>
   Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 8:27 PM
   Subject: [Marbling] (unknown)


   Hello Everyone, Well I somewhat mastered fabric marbling, but I've been doing
some paper (as you know Iris !). So I ask you paper marbler's ,do you slide your
paper off the edge of the vat to squeegee" off the size? or are you just lifting
and gently rinsing, till size is off? I've gotten some smearing when rinsing off
the  size from the paper. I don't want to rinse to much which smears the 
paint,but I feel its still slippery. Does it matter if there's alittle size left
on? Its trial and error here ...I don't want to spoil to many papers.Any
thoughts are appreciated  Thanks Gretchen



   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





   Yahoo! Groups Links








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Iris ,I'm purposely using the nature text,on your recomendation! So lets see!
Thanks! Gretchen

irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:when I use my own watercolor paints I
hang them right up, you just have to get a feel for what the right amount of
paint is. If you want/need to rinse I lay them on a slanted board in a big sink
and you can just gently pour water over them. Also most American made papers
nowadays don't hold the paints as well if at all.

iris nevins
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: gretchen vansant<mailto:fine_artist2002@...>
   To: marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:marbling@yahoogroups.com>
   Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 8:27 PM
   Subject: [Marbling] (unknown)


   Hello Everyone, Well I somewhat mastered fabric marbling, but I've been doing
some paper (as you know Iris !). So I ask you paper marbler's ,do you slide your
paper off the edge of the vat to squeegee" off the size? or are you just lifting
and gently rinsing, till size is off? I've gotten some smearing when rinsing off
the  size from the paper. I don't want to rinse to much which smears the 
paint,but I feel its still slippery. Does it matter if there's alittle size left
on? Its trial and error here ...I don't want to spoil to many papers.Any
thoughts are appreciated  Thanks Gretchen



   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





   Yahoo! Groups Links








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

    To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/

    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Marbling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "carolevhoof" <carolevanderhoof@b...>
wrote:
>
> If anyone wants bulk oxgall I have some - contact me off list.
> Carole
> Lonely Pine Bindery

Thanks to all the folks who bought ox gall, I'll post again when I
have more.
Carole